It has long been clear that there is nothing remotely "conservative" about this Administration, at least in the sense that conservative ideology has stood for a restrained Federal Government which was to be distrusted. There has been a long line of decidedly un-conservative actions by this Administration -- from exploding discretionary domestic spending to record deficits to an emergency convening of the Federal Government to intervene in one woman’s end-of-life decisions to attempts to federalize, even constitutionalize, marriage laws – all of which could not be any more alien to what has been meant by "conservatism" for the past 40 years.
The NSA scandal ought to make it impossible for any intellectually honest conservatives to continue to support this Administration. It is a scandal in which the Administration has trampled on two bedrock conservative principles -- an unintrusive Federal Government and adherence to the rule of law. Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter, one of the few mainstream journalists who has both recognized and articulated that the NSA scandal constitutes a genuine crisis in our government, explained in his column this week:
But "Snoopgate" is already creating new fissures on the right. The NSA story is an acid test of whether one is a traditional Barry Goldwater conservative, who believes in limited government, or a modern Richard Nixon conservative, who believes in authority.
This is exactly right. Under the Bush Administration, the term "conservative" long ago ceased to signify a political ideology and has instead become a personality cult. As Alter says, the conservatism of Bush followers is first and foremost about a belief in authority – the authority of George Bush. Literally, what now determines whether one is a "conservative" is the fealty one demonstrates to George Bush, the Leader and Commander-in-Chief.
Adherence to any particular political principle has become irrelevant. Whatever George Bush does or says becomes the definition of "conservatism," even if what he is doing and saying has nothing to do with, or is even antithetical to, precepts of actual conservatism. One is a "conservative" in exact proportion to the extent of one’s loyalty to Bush.
Although Bush followers long maintained the fiction that they were "conservatives," they are, at long last, giving up the pretense. Bush lover Fred Barnes has a new Book of Reverence entitled "Rebel-in-Chief," which Andrew Sullivan, having reviewed the book for the Sunday Times, has labeled a "fellatial biography" that "makes Powerline read like the Daily Kos." If the classicly glorifying cover is any indication, Sullivan’s description is accurate:

Bush followers who are discussing the book are openly celebrating the fact that George Bush has dispensed with any notions of a restrained Federal Government and has, instead, converted the Federal Government into an instrument for imposing a "conservative" vision on America. Here is Christopher Wilcox in the New York Sun drooling with admiration for both Barnes' book as well as its subject:
One of Mr. Barnes's most important points is how unhappy many conservatives are with Mr. Bush's big-spending ways. This certainly has been reported elsewhere, but Mr. Barnes goes further, claiming that Mr. Bush is deliberately transforming the conservative movement from its small-government orientation to a more activist approach.
What does it even mean to say that Bush is "transforming the conservative movement from its small-government orientation to a more activist approach." What is left of "the conservative movement" if one guts from it its "small-government orientation"? Isn’t that somewhat like transforming the peace movement away from its opposition to war or the environmental movement away from its opposition to pollution?
In reviewing Barnes’ paean, the Bush worship club that calls itself "Blogs for Bush" makes equally clear that conservatism needs only George Bush, not any of that obsolete abstract stuff about small government. Explaining to us with great understatement that the Commander-in-Chief is "liked and admired by a very staunch set of supporters," Blogs for Bush tells us, with no trace of irony:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a conservative and believe that conservatism is the only proper way to govern, but like President Bush I see no reason to tilt at windmills. To fight to terminate the Department of Education is to merely give the liberal/left opposition the opportunity to campaign against you as "anti-education" - much better to just pour some conservative wine in the old, liberal bottles...use the bloated budget of the Department of Education to advance conservative education reform.
So when Democrats had primary control of the Federal Government, conservatives spent the entire time loudly demanding that the size and reach of the Federal Government be severely curtailed. But that was all just for show. When the same conservatives acquired full-scale control of the Federal Government, they decided that restraining the Federal Government was just "tilting at windmills." No need to bother oneself with that now. So they decided instead to dispense with all of those silly small government pipe dreams and, to fill the gap, they are embracing and expanding the power of the Federal Government in order to implement their "activist" conservative vision on America.
That the Bush Administration is engaged in such an un-conservative project is not news to anyone who has been paying even minimal attention. But it is news that they are admitting it. And Bush opponents ought to be exploiting this very real and growing tension in order to demonstrate that there is nothing remotely partisan or ideological about the NSA law-breaking scandal.
Real conservatives – meanings ones who have objectives and beliefs other than the glorification of George Bush – ought to be most offended by Bush’s law-breaking. One can defend Bush’s secret, lawless eavesdropping on American citizens only if one has a virtually blind faith in the Bush Administration, and yet the core instinct of conservatism has long been expressed by this sentiment:
It is a mistake to think of the Bush Administration as "conservative." There is nothing remotely conservative about it. It resembles far more strongly a cult of personality which glorifies the authority of the leader and which desires no limits on his power. But regardless of what one thinks of what has long been referred to as "conservatism," there is a fundamental tension between that ideology and the beliefs of Bush followers.
Al Gore’s appearance with Bob Barr is reflective of that tension and uses it quite powerfully to make the point that the NSA scandal is not the by-product of the standard liberal-conservative split. Bush's invasive, illegal eavesdropping promotes neither liberal nor conservative values. To the contrary, it squarely contradicts both, and promotes nothing other than the Bush Movement.
In terms of ensuring that there are real consequences to Bush’s law-breaking, it would be highly constructive for there to be a lot more events like this Gore-Barr speech. There is no reason to continue to ignore these long-simmering divisions which are waiting to explode.
It is really an authoritarian movement, as you say. Authoritarianism is always about the leader, never about anything else. Everything else ends up subordinate to that. That's what is happening. I think real conservatives have decided to ignore all of that for the GWOT, but hopefully, that is far enough away that it will snap them out of their spell.
ReplyDeleteI believe it is accurate to describe as a "war" our routing of terrorists and the nation-states who support them. But it is also true that this is, to understate, a highly unconventional war that also has aspects of mere domestic policing, and will endure for decades. Those who analogize to Lincoln and the Civil War are deeply, deeply misguided, and they truly know not what they are doing.
ReplyDeleteLast nite, the History Channel showed Eighty Acres of Hell, about the POW Camp Douglas in Chicago, that held
Confederate prisoners. It was a murderous torture chamber, and even Chicago citizens got caught up and executed under martial law, with no due process, and with Lincoln's knowledge and blessing.
But that war had definable limits; a clear-cut surrender occurred, and by some unknown mercy of fate, the nation reverted to the rule of law. That was not inevitable.
We simply cannot institutional the suspension of civil liberties and the rule of law in the name of the War on Terror. It will go on for many years to come; the theories of Presidential power set forth by Bush's DoJ would encompass Presidential authority to establish another Camp Douglas -- virtually forever. Barry Goldwater would not have, in a million years, sat still for his party promoting such tyrannical power. I hope there are enough Republicans sufficiently like him to force an end to Bush's grab for Lincolnesque, dictatorial power; as Alter points out, this crisis likely cannot be headed off without them.
Ideology has to change with the times, Glenn. We are at war now and we can't afford to have a weak and enfeebled federal government. Conservatism is about a strong and secure America and a strong America needs a strong Government.
ReplyDeleteEddie -- and I mean this with no intended hostility, but as a genuine reflection of my feelings -- your comment sickens me. The Founders would spin in their graves, seeing you willing to abdicate your liberty and the rule of law, in the name of "changing times" that ostensibly require a strong federal government that ignores the 4th Amendment and the rule of law.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to the conservative war cry, Don't Tread on Me? We give that up for a terrorist threat that will endure for another 25-50 years? Do, you repudiate this?:
When it comes to symbolizing freedom and the spirit of '76, I do think there's a better American flag. With all due respect to the stars and stripes, I prefer the yellow Gadsden flag with the coiled rattlesnake and the defiant Don't Tread on Me motto.
The meaning of Old Glory can get mixed up with the rights and wrongs of the perpetually new-and-improved government. The meaning of "Don't Tread on Me" is unmistakable.
Why don't you come right out and state it as plain as day, eddie:
ReplyDeleteYou are more loyal to Bush than to the US Constitution.
"If it comes down to it," right?
Say it out loud.
Hypatia, they had a war and restricted freedoms too. Hopefully Bush can win the war quickly, but if not, we need to be strong. Do you think we should give in to the terrorists just to have loyalty to your ideals? We can have your ideals but a nuked Manhattan and LA. No thanks. The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
ReplyDeletePrunes, i don't see what's wrong with loyalty to the President. He's the Commander in Chief of my country. I would hope I am loyal to him. Aren't you????
Hopefully Bush can win the war quickly, but if not, we need to be strong. Do you think we should give in to the terrorists just to have loyalty to your ideals? We can have your ideals but a nuked Manhattan and LA. No thanks. The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
ReplyDeleteMy ideals!? I thought they were those of all real Americans.
No one -- no one -- is arguing against allowing the Executive the latitude to prevent terrorist attacks. But this threat is one that can be invoked in perpetuity. Are we to permit the President to eavesdrop on citizens, without any judicial oversight, forever?
Why, eddie, did Bush not seek an amendment to FISA to make his NSA program legal? Everyone knows that in the months and even years after 9/11 a Republican-controlled Congress would have given him nearly anything. Instead, he merely does as he wishes, with no other branch of govt to check and hold his power in balance -- and he simply declares he has this virtually unlimited power to do as he pleases as long as he invokes his title of Commander in Chief.
The Founders would never, not in a million years, have endorsed such a lawless expansion of Executive power. Why do you?
Eddie,
ReplyDeleteUnless you are in the military, Bush is not your Commander-in-Chief. He is your president.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
ReplyDeleteTo me it is. To many dead Americans it was.
Understand well: I literally care more about those values than my own life.
He's the Commander in Chief of my country. I would hope I am loyal to him. Aren't you????
1st of all: You have already left Constitutionality behind. He is not Commander in Chief of OUR country. He is Commander in Chief of the armed forces.
But mainly, he's OUR EMPLOYEE. My taxes pay his salary. He works for me. His job description is the Constitution. Most of the other board members agree with me that is time for him to be canned, for gross malfeasance.
Get it straight, right now. True Americans are loyal to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, far more than any elected official, WHICH IS ALL BUSH IS. The path the Republican party is taking violates every traditional American value.
I pray to God it doesn't ever come to violence between the Republicans and the Americans.
I am a security professional.
ReplyDeleteThe GWOT is a "war" against an ideology that gains every time we cheapen ourselves in the way demanded by this administration.
Our enemies do not pose an existential threat to the US. We are responding in ways that weren't appropriate in WWII or the Cold War, and certainly pervert our freedoms.
If president Bush broke the law deliberately, as an official act, he should be impeached. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Yo, Eddie. Do you remember the Pledge of Allegiance? What is it that we pledged allegiance to? The flag, of course, but that just symbolism.
ReplyDeleteWhat we pledged allegiance to was "the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Assume I'm stupid (my SAT and LSAT scores suggest otherwise, but set those aside for purposes of the exercise): explain to me, as simply and clearly as possible, using all facts and no polemics, how the policies of the current regime are small-r "republican," and how they advance the cause of "liberty and justice for all."
I'm willing to bet you can't do it.
Kevin Phillips said it best:
ReplyDeleteIf hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue, compassionate conservatism is the policy hypocrisy uses to disguise economic vice.
You lefty loonies are all batshitcrazy. So lets do it your way. We keep our liberties and the terrorists take over. How would you like to live in a country with a leader who wont let us have any freedom if he thinks our freedom threatens his hold on power. All telephone and email communication would be listened in on, so the terrorist leader could spot threats to His power. The only people who would get to have any say in govt would be those who adhere to His religious views, and the rest of us would have to sit by and listen to His followers defend His right to protect His power by any means necessary.
ReplyDeleteHOW WOULD YOU LEFTWING NUTS LIKE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY LIKE THAT?!!?
Think about it.
HOW WOULD YOU LEFTWING NUTS LIKE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY LIKE THAT?!!?
ReplyDeleteJust for the record, I used to vote Republican, and I will again the instant they are conservative again.
No one would ever call me leftwing.
No one will ever call me a traitor to the constitution, either.
All telephone and email communication would be listened in on, so the [...] leader could spot threats to His power. The only people who would get to have any say in govt would be those who adhere to His religious views, and the rest of us would have to sit by and listen to His followers defend His right to protect His power by any means necessary.
So... who are you talking about? Bush? Am I right?
prunes writes: No one would ever call me leftwing.
ReplyDeleteNo one will ever call me a traitor to the constitution, either.
Same here. I just roll my eyes and move on at posts dismissing as left-wingers everyone who objects to unlimited expansion of Executive authority and lawlessness. I'm left-wing to the same degree that Madonna took and abided by a life-long vow of chastity.
Nah, I'm no moonbat; I just have this weird hang-up on the Constitution and the small R republican government our Founders bequeathed us.
At his inauguration Bush did not swear an oath to "protect America" or "Make sure the bad guys don't get us" or "Keep everybody safe." He swore to uphold the Constitution. That is his absolute, primary duty and it's enshrined in that ceremony, hand on the Bible, to drive home its seriousness to him and to the whole nation.
ReplyDeleteHe betrayed it.
"Give me liberty or give me death" was one of our proudest slogans as a nation. The Bush Party has relinquished that sentiment. "Give me safety and I'll gladly live like a serf" is their proud motto now.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI'm sort of curious why anyone thinks GW is uniquely qualified to protect us:
ReplyDeleteHe failed to set up any kind of high level response team after receiving a series of strongly worded warnings before 9/11. If (any of) you were president, wouldn't you have?
His conduct of the war in Iraq has hardly been a model of brilliant commander-in-chiefmanship. Has it?
He got failing grades from the 9/11 Commission recently on various measures of preparation against a future terrorist attack. He's had plenty of time by now, hasn't he?
And his performance in regards to Hurricane Katrina, if it's any indication of how he would respond to another terrorist attack, does not make me feel secure, does it you?
So what is it about his judgment that you all find so compelling that he should have powers beyond those claimed by any prior president of the United States?
To Drbb,
ReplyDeleteYou are quite wrong about the oath the President takes. He absolutely did swear to protect and defend the country. You need to go back and read the entire oath, and then look at how that oath and its meaning were interpreted by past President's like Lincoln who expressed the oath compelled him to defend the country as his highest duty.
The President swears to execute the office of the Presidency. He is the only official whose oath contains that proviso. The President is charged with executing his office to protect and defend the Union, the United States, and the constitution. As Lincoln noted protecting the constitution is a commandment and an oath to protect the country/Union because without a country the constitution is destroyed.
Simple really,
Says the "Dog"
It does appear that Gore -- having been Clinton's VP -- is in a rather poor position to criticize Bush's power grab, as some Bush supporters are noting in the blogosphere. In March of '97 Cato released a lengthy report, Dereliction Of Duty: The Constitutional Record of President Clinton . Certainly if this analysis of Clinton's behavior is accurate, one can see why Clintonites -- other than Gore all of a sudden -- have been either approving of, or quiet about, Bush's NSA issues. Excerpt:
ReplyDeleteWarrantless "National Security" Searches
The Clinton administration claims that it can bypass the warrant clause for "national security" purposes. In July 1994 Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick told the House Select Committee on Intelligence that the president "has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes." [51] According to Gorelick, the president (or his attorney general) need only satisfy himself that an American is working in conjunction with a foreign power before a search can take place.
The warrant clause was designed to give the American people greater security than that afforded by the mere words of politicians. It requires the attorney general, or others, to make a showing of "probable cause" to a magistrate. The proponents of national security searches are hard-pressed to find any support for their position in the text or history of the Constitution. That is why they argue from the "inherent authority" of the Oval Office--a patently circular argument. The scope of such "authority" is of course unbounded in principle. Yet the Clinton Justice Department has said that the warrant clause is fully applicable to murder suspects but not to persons suspected of violating the export control regulations of the federal government. [52] If the Framers had wanted to insert a national security exception to the warrant clause, they would have done so. They did not.
The Clinton administration's national security exception to the warrant clause is nothing more, of course, than an unsupported assertion of power by executive branch officials. The Nixon administration relied on similar constitutional assertions in the 1970s to rationalize "black bag" break-ins to the quarters of its political opponents. [53] The Clinton White House--even after the Filegate scandal--assures Congress, the media, and the general public that it has no intention of abusing this power.
Attorney General Reno has already signed off on the warrantless search of an American home on the basis of the dubious "inherent authority" theory. [54] The actual number of clandestine "national security" searches conducted since 1993 is known only to the White House and senior Justice Department officials.
And former Clinton Assistant Atty General John Schmidt has supported this warrantless NSA eavsdropping in contravention of FISA, saying:
I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again."
It may be that one impediment to a serious inquiry into this matter is that the Democrats know there are unclean hands in their camp, as well. I really wonder what Bill and Hillary think about Gore's speech today. Has anyone heard?
To Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteI'm prepared to stipulate that the Clinton Administration crossed some lines that should not have been crossed with respect to surveillance.
They were wrong. OK?
The Bush Regime is doing the same things, and more.
Do you agree that they are also wrong?
Do you agree that two wrongs don't make a right?
Wisdom that comes belatedly is better than no wisdom at all.
jodypschaeffer said:
ReplyDeleteOr, to put it more bluntly, folks that think we're in more danger now than during the Cold War, WW II, the Civil War, or even the Revolution, and therefore feel we need to relinquish the freedoms our forefathers fought and died to provide us with..(nonsense deleted)
Yes we are in more danger of attack on one of our cities by a nuclear device than during the cold war. In the cold war the enemy had territory/countries they wished to preserve; they had lives and families they wished to continue. The threat of the assured distruction of their country, themselves, their power, and their families was enough to deter the USSR. With Islamofascism we face an enemy who has NO territory to defend; who can't wait for his family, himself, and his relatives to all die and go for the 72 virgins. Retaliatory threats on specific regions or territories do NOT deter these crazies. Further advances in nuclear bomb technology making for smaller and more easily transported bombs, chemical weapons, and dirty bombs, etc. make these crazies more likely to be able to someday explode that nuclear, chemical, biological, or radiological weapon in one of our cities.
These differences are so substantial than only a lefty with head placed firmly inside his colon would fail to recognize same.
The threat to our homeland citizens is greater now than at any time, except for the civil war and revolutionary war. However, while the current islamofascist threat is not as high on the probability scale as in the Civil and Revolutionary Wars, the level of potential death and destruction from any single attack is so many orders of magnitude larger that the comparisons again fall apart.
Finally, I reject your false dichotomy as does the majority of Americans that the choices made by President Bush require any lessening of our liberty. The majority of people recognize the NSA surveillance is necessary and is so minimal and inconsequential to our daily lives as to be nothing more than a theoretical invasion of our liberty interests.
Democrats run around on the basis of this theoretical invasion of our liberty interests yelling the sky is falling, Hitler is nigh. Forgive me if I prefer to keep my head while all the liberals are losing theirs.
Says the "Dog"
burnspebsq asks: Do you agree that they are also wrong?
ReplyDeleteDo you agree that two wrongs don't make a right?
I have been alarmed by, and opposed to, Bush's eavsdropping in violation of FISA ever since it became known, as regular readers here are aware. In addition, the idea of holding a U.S. citizen indefinitely, without a lawyer and no charges brought against him, outrages me.
But it is also true that I see the whole problem as less one of GOP v. Dem, as I do one of Executive v. Legislative. Jimmy Carter wasn't too happy about FISA when it was enacted on his watch, which might explain why a former member of his DoJ, Cass Sunstein -- a liberal Con Law professor of distinction -- has quite strongly defended Bush's "inherent authority" argument. That would make no sense in terms of Dem v Repub, liberal v. "conservative," but does if the "partisanship" is branch v. branch.
Many of Clinton's policies -- like warrantless searches of those living in public housing -- made me sick. But I, like Cato, am an equal opportunity civil libertarian; I don't care who is in the White House (or Congress). If they are engaging in police state tactics, I'm going to oppose them.
But it is also true that I see the whole problem as less one of GOP v. Dem, as I do one of Executive v. Legislative.
ReplyDeleteThis is the meat of the matter. And Mr. Gore did make some mention of how this is not a simple partisan issue, nor that it's only bad when Republicans do it. Remember whose Attorney-General Mr. Palmer was. The Executive Branch must be checked by the other branches of government, as the Founders intended. And the Executive can use, e.g., the budget submission process, his national bully pulpit, and his veto (Have you heard of that one, Mr. President?) to place checks on Congressional action. And federal judges who flagrantly abuse the public trust in their decisions can be impeached. Wow, it's almost like there's some sort of balance of power in the system. Unless, like Mr. Alito, you believe in the unitary executive.
I don't care who is in the White House (or Congress). If they are engaging in police state tactics, I'm going to oppose them.
Exactly. Wrong is wrong. Enough of IOKIYAR. Or IOKIYAD, for that matter. Though the "Christian" moral absolutists in Congress who have swiftly and devoutly embraced relativism tend to be Republican...
--mds
mds,
ReplyDelete"Unitary Executive" To steal a line from the Princess Bride..
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means".
Says the "Dog"
Wow, it's almost like there's some sort of balance of power in the system. Unless, like Mr. Alito, you believe in the unitary executive.
ReplyDeleteI may believe in that theory, altho I'd want to read more about it than I have since it became an issue. Based on the one political scientist I read setting it all forth in some journal a few years back, it is unobjectionable, and pertains to administrative appointments and not letting Congress exercise law enforcement powers 'n stuff.
It doesn't have to do with whether Bush or any president has the right to do whatever he wants, even in violation of Congress. That's why Gore said it is really a matter of a unilateral executive, when it comes to things like the NSA problem.
Based on the one political scientist I read setting it all forth in some journal a few years back, it is unobjectionable, and pertains to administrative appointments and not letting Congress exercise law enforcement powers 'n stuff.
ReplyDeleteIt's actually an initially laudable attempt to assert procedural separation of powers. For instance,if the judicial branch were to become involved in disputes between executive agencies, it would violate the doctrine of separation of powers under the theory. Hence executive agencies can't engage in legal action against one another, since they are extensions of the President. Okay, so the President settles disputes between his subordinates. The problem is its inflation of such separation to the point where it removes checks and balances. For instance, under Unitary Executive theory, the President has the power to interpret law as it applies to the Executive Branch. This obviously could lead to problems if carried too far.
Now, not all Unitary Executive proponents take it to the next level, but a great many clearly do: namely, the substantive claims of deference due the executive branch from the legislative and judicial branches. They're "equal" partners, but the executive is more equal than the others. This, for instance, is John Yoo's interpretation of the Unitary Executive. Obviously, even if Justice Scalia, as a Federalist Society member, espouses the Unitary Executive, he clearly does not take it as far as Mr. Yoo, as his opinion in Hamdi illustrates. Now, where does Mr. Alito fall? Despite the somewhat childish use of "Scalito", my sense is that Mr. Alito lies closer to Mr. Yoo. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
So, come to think of it, I'll probably have to go with your endorsement of Mr. Gore's usage: the theory of the Unilateral Executive is the more controversial, substantive extension of the Unitary Executive.
--mds
mds,
ReplyDeleteThere is also an element of the struggle for power between the legislative and executive branches of government involved in the Unitary Executive question. It is clear that Congress has used the development of "independent agencies" to intrude on the power of the Executive branch. It has also had what many consider bad effects with regard to the ability of the Executive to manage and execute the laws and policies of the land, to make adjustments and reactions to changing ideas and situations more quickly, etc. These aren't necessarily good things. Often quite the opposite in terms of effective management.
The fact remains that the constitution does not speak of independent agencies in the executive branch, and only speaks of the President as though the President would personally carry out every executive function. The Unitary Executive in this sense *is* based upon the plain text of words that form the constitution.
Says the "Dog"
and only speaks of the President as though the President would personally carry out every executive function.
ReplyDeleteSubject to regulation by laws passed by the Congress. The Constitution both declares the President "Commander-in-Chief" and gives Congress the right to declare war, set the rules for the military, and for military actions. This administration is not arguing that it should have control of the Post Office again. It is arguing that Congress cannot "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces" (see the President's signing statement about the McCain Amendment as well as the work of Bybee and Yoo), cannot "make rules concerning captures on land and water" (ditto), and cannot "make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof." Yeah, such executive powers are right there, in the part of Article II that says, "the Executive shall ignore any laws or portions of Article I that it alone deems to impinge upon the powers of the Executive." If Congress and the Judiciary have no business regulating the actions of the Executive Branch, purely because the Executive Branch says so, then where did the notion of checks and balances come from? The lines of demarcation between the branches have never been absolute, because they couldn't check one another if they were.
For what it's worth, the President is welcome to push for returning the Postmaster General to the Cabinet. Heck, then he can more easily steam open all our mail, since we're at war. Until Congress revokes the AUMF. Which action the Executive is free to ignore, just like any other action of Congress.
--mds
mds your statements and analogies are way over the top. They are inaccurate as a result.
ReplyDeleteCongress does not have the authority to regulate which general the president must use to head up a particular operation, but from what you write one would conclude they do have that power. Congress doesn't have the right to regulate the specific battlefield tactics such as which front to attack and when, which specific forces to use and where, which specific armaments that they must use or not use from among those which congress has provided.
Congress could pass laws attempting to regulate these commander in chief decisions, but they wouldn't be constitutional. They would be unconstitution interference with the President's commander in chief functions.
Yes its true congress has the authority to determine what to do with the *stuff* that is captured by the armed forces, that is NOT the same thing as providing congress has the right to tell the President how to command the forces, when to make an attack, or where along the enemy lines that attack must come.
Whether you like it or not obtaining intelligence on the operations, plans and tactics of our foreign enemies, whether those enemies are here in this country or abroad, is solely the province of the Commander in Chief function of the President.
Congress is free to declare the war on terror over and rescind their AUMF/Declaration of War. Congress is not free to pass regulations giving the commander in chief functions and decision making to themselves collectively or to some other person. It is the President's function.
Congress doesn't take an oath the protect and preserve the constitution and the country, that responsibility is the President's and that oath is part of the President's inherent constitutional authority.
Says the "Dog"
To JodyPSchaefer:
ReplyDeleteYou're the one keeping your head while the left is losing theirs? Is this a joke?
Nope, just reality. Welcome.
People recognize NSA surveillance necessary, provided it goes thru proper channels
Nope. That's what you and all your friends think, but that's not what all of the polls over the past 3 weeks have said. The majority of people support warrantless wiretaps of the enemy, even when the enemy has a USA phone number.
People also want to make sure their rights are protected.
Yes, and they are very interested in protecting their right to stay alive. They don't see the so minimal as to be only theoretical potential lessening of their liberty by the NSA seeking to intercept enemy communications as a threat to their rights. They don't see a need for an Al Qaeda bill of rights or politicians more worried about protecting Al Qaeda communications than keeping them and their children safe.
Nobody thinks warrantless unrestricted wiretaps are required, as Bush has done.
Again that's what you and your friends think, but not what the majority of Americans think. See the polls previously referenced above.
during the Revolutionary War, which you take pains to indicate was a time of even greater threat to Americans, the Founding Fathers took the time to pen the Bill of Rights.
Yes and just as you and Algore have forgotten, this is what I wrote above on this very point which you referenced:
The threat to our homeland citizens is greater now than at any time, except for the civil war and revolutionary war. However, while the current islamofascist threat is not as high on the probability scale as in the Civil and Revolutionary Wars, the level of potential death and destruction from any single attack is so many orders of magnitude larger that the comparisons again fall apart.
You and Algore conveniently forget the last half of that paragraph. The part that makes NOW different from THEN.
People that advocate the placing of this or any president above the constitutional process in the name of 'protection' should take a step back
That isn't what I and those like me are advocating. We are pointing out that the President's actions are WITHIN the constitutional process, not above it.
Says the "Dog"
mds your statements and analogies are way over the top. They are inaccurate as a result.
ReplyDeleteUmm, yeah. My "analogies" were direct quotes from Article I of the Constitution, giving the powers of Congress. Of course Congress doesn't pick officers for a particular action, or decide when to launch an attack, or field-strip M16A2 rifles. They "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces". We could note the fact that the NSA is part of DoD, with a military director, and apply this part of the Constitution and Posse Comitatus as well as FISA, or we could go with that other over-the-top segment, "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof." Except for the rules and laws the President gets to make up out of his inherent plenary executive authority, of course. As provided for by Article Q of the "secret" Constitution.
Whether you like it or not obtaining intelligence on the operations, plans and tactics of our foreign enemies, whether those enemies are here in this country or abroad, is solely the province of the Commander in Chief function of the President.
It's not whether I like it or not. It's whether Congress has passed a law. Which it has. FISA would need to be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. We've been over this derangement of yours before, that the President has the power of the judiciary to simply ignore laws if he alone decides they are unconstitutional. Five Presidents, and no Supreme Court challenge. Imagine that.
Congress doesn't take an oath the protect and preserve the constitution and the country, that responsibility is the President's and that oath is part of the President's inherent constitutional authority.
The President doesn't take an oath to preserve "the country", only the Constitution. The same Constitution that mandates that he "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed", with no exemption for laws he doesn't like. And guess what: in compliance with Article VI, Congress does take an oath "to support and defend the Constitution". Jeepers, no wonder you didn't recognize all those "over the top" quotations from Article I. They used to have a copy of this "Constitution" thingy at libraries, you know.
--mds
mds,
ReplyDeleteThe President's duty to protect and preserve the constitution includes protecting and preserving the country. One can't exist without the other. That has been the interpretation since at least lincoln.
Yes congress can pass a law, that isn't the question or the end of a reasoned analysis. The law must also be constitutional in its implementation with respect to the other branches of governments. You may not like that approach, but Madison and Jefferson both stated that each branch of government was supreme and must interpret the constitution for itself when acting solely within its own sphere of constitutional powers. The President when acting within his own sphere of constitutional powers determines the interpretation of the constitution. Its only when the President seeks to go outside the areas of his sole sphere of constitutional powers, such as when he seeks to bring criminal charges against someone, and another branch becomes involved that the other branch's interpretation of the constitution becomes relevant.
The sphere of enemy intelligence and foreign surveillance are solely within the sphere of the President's constitutional authority, and the president according to Madison and Jefferson is the party who determines the applicable interpretation of the constitution within those areas.
That's that constitution thingy to which you refer (and then make over the top analogies which after being called on you completely fail to address).
Says the "Dog"
Well, you haven't told me what the "over-the-top" analogies were, yet. So "called on" apparently has some mysterious meaning, likewise cribbed from Article Q of the secret Constitution.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, here's Madison again:
"It was shewn in the last paper, that the political apothegm there examined, does not require that the legislative, executive and judiciary departments should be wholly unconnected with each other. I shall undertake in the next place, to shew that unless these departments be so far connected and blended, as to give to each a constitutional controul over the others, the degree of separation which the maxim requires as essential to a free government, can never in practice, be duly maintained."
And this whole bit about the President's unilateral power to make decisions about Constitutionality appears nowhere in the Constitution. Merely asserting ad nauseum that it is constitutional doesn't make it true.
It's still amusing that you didn't even know about Article VI of the Constitution. No wonder your direct quotes from it are nonexistent. No, you just declaim powers for the Executive, then say "that's the Constitution." Whatever.
--mds
mds,
ReplyDeleteIts true I don't have the constitution memorized.
Alan Meese is a well known law professor at William and Mary University Law School. Just a couple days ago he posted this on the Volokh Conspiracy blog:
Exactly right, and exactly what Madison and Jefferson said. Each branch is supreme in its own sphere, and the President has to interpret the Constitution when carrying out his duties. However, decisions that require judicial involvement to, say, convict someone give the judiciary the last word.
Alan Meese's comment above was stating "exactly right" in agreeing with this comment:
Of course the Executive Branch has independent authority to interpret federal law. But the Judicial Branch doesn't have to go along with that interpretation, any more than the Executive Branch has to go along with the Judicial Branch's interpretation. So long as a matter stays within the Executive Branch, and doesn't need a court's approval, the Executive is free to follow its own understanding - indeed it is obligated to do so, and not to defer to an interpretation that it believes is mistaken. But if it wants to charge someone with a crime, it has to do that in a court of law, where it is merely a party to a case, on the same level as the defendant, and it is the judiciary's interpretation that will be applied.
Perhaps mds you need to read some more of what Madison wrote.
Says the "Dog"
To jodypschaefer
ReplyDeletemean, you keep talking about everyone that wants to give the president authority to do whatever he wants for the duration of an open-ended, limitless war on a noun
I've never said anything like the above. Like a lot of mindless leftnuts, first you make up false ridiculous statements, conjured up out of your irrational slippery slope fears and Bush Derangement Syndrome and then you put these paranoid fantasy statements into the mouths of people who have never said such a thing and proceed to argue against your false and delusional constructs.
Neither Bush wants nor do conservatives want to give him unlimited power; the war on terror is real, even Algore says so; the war is not indefinite Congress can declare the war over and rescind its AUMF any time it feels like it.
Stay away from the kool-aid for a week and your thinking will become more focused.
I've said all of the above right here in several threads, probably including this one, several times. However, the closed minds of liberals just don't pay attention to what is written by anyone who isn't a true paranoid the Bush is coming fanatic. Its much easier to make up falsehoods about what Bush supporters state and then argue against those falsehoods.
I guess it gives the lefties a sense of control over something by exhibiting this behavior. Its also the only way they can maintain their pretense of superiority.
Says the "Dog"
Congress can declare the war over and rescind its AUMF any time it feels like it.
ReplyDeleteBut if the President believes the threat remains, he can ignore Congressional action, since he can ignore FISA. The same FISA that was later amended by the Patriot Act, yet contained no change in the warrant requirements. The Patriot Act itself is strange, since Congress apparently gave the Executive all those powers by putting commas in the text of the AUMF. So the President, who has declared powers under the AUMF that Congress explicitly refused to give him (I refer you to, e.g., Senator Stevens' remarks), can simply declare that revocation of the AUMF has no meaning. And then he can transfer funds to his ongoing terror activities from other sources without explicit congressional approval, just as he did with funds for Afghanistan operations.
But good way to dodge addressing the direct quote from Madison in the Federalist Papers by telling me I need to read more Madison, whom you're not quoting all that much. Hmm, sort of like how you respond to direct quotes from the Constitution by calling them "over-the-top" and simply asserting contrary positions about Constitutionality without any direct documentary support. I gradually begin to notice a pattern.
Me, I'll join with Messrs. Barr, Norquist, Weyrich, Keene, Fein, Hagel, etc., in having concerns about executive overreach in this matter. I have varying degrees of respect for the aforementioned people, but on this matter I certainly respect them more than you.
--mds
Hypothetical question for Dog...
ReplyDeleteGeorge Bush has a list of American citizens whom he says have links to al Qaeda. He will not reveal why he believes this. His plan is to imprison these people in a prison camp indefinitely, allowing no contact with attorneys or review by courts. They will be tortured for information. Some will be executed.
Dog, please explain exactly what stops Bush (or, in a few years, Hillary Clinton) from doing this. By your logic, I suspect the answer is "nothing."
---PWW
I hesitate to step into the middle of this, but... PWW, as to your last:
ReplyDeleteThe 2008 election, if nothing else. Congress's impeachment ability. Congress's control of the purse. The Supreme Court generally, coupled with firebreathing litigators who, in complete disregard for every lawyer joke ever told, would be willing to work indefinitely pro bono to uphold the rights of these putative prisoners. The blogosphere, where secrets can't be kept for long.
I'm a Republican. I voted for Bush, twice. I dislike big government and the spending that goes with it - but I also admire George Washington, who was not a small-r republican but a Federalist, based on his frustrating and nearly disastrous experiences prosecuting the American Revolution under the Articles of Confederation. He knew that a strong and vigorous Executive was a necessary element of a national government, and he also put his considerable political capital on the line to try to convince the American people (who didn't consider themselves "the American people" yet) that what they ought to be building, what they had to be building if they expected their independence to outlast him, was a nation, rather than a collection of brother-states.
Bush is going to be out in two years. Congress can rescind the AUMF tomorrow, if it honestly believes that this conflict is not existential, or the next time the NSA program comes up for review the members of Congress who have been briefed on it since its inception can register their displeasure and demands that it cease for the first time.
There is, as you say, nothing stopping Bush from seizing power permanently and declaring himself President For Life - nothing, except all the rest of us.
Mr. Greenwald overlooks at least two important factors in his "Bush followers are Bush cultists" analysis. First, if there's a cult of personality, it exists on both sides of the partisan divide: a good deal of the Left hates Bush with a fervor I've never seen before, and a good deal of the Right circles the wagons against the Left in his defense, though if you come visit some of us on our own ground, you may find a great deal less slavish devotion than Mr. Greenwald would have you believe. Second, in my own case, committed prosecution of this war, and the long-term foreign policy implications of this Administration's departure from realpolitik, are at the very top of my list - therefore I am dedicated to supporting this Administration while it lasts, and in 2008 and thereafter if need be, the administration that appears to me to share my commitment. My support for my lesser priorities is less firm. But Kerry obviously did not share my priorities; I couldn't have given him my support. In other words, Mr. Greenwald sees a "cult" where the priorities of us on the Right differ from his. In his analysis, we are "intellectually dishonest" if we interpret the "NSA scandal" differently from him (which gives him a convenient "high ground" from which to respond to people like me - he can just call me stupid or gullible and pretend to pity me, or call me disingenuous if he's willing to admit that I'm not stupid), whereas there are commenters on the Right who consider those like Mr. Greenwald "intellectually dishonest" if they say that the infringement represented by the "NSA scandal" is more important than the national security implications of discontinuing the highly circumscribed program (and those commenters can and do occupy that same "high ground" where Mr. Greenwald is concerned).
But I see this: we are on the same side. Rhetoric aside, the Left doesn't "hate America" and the Right doesn't "hate freedom"; we differ on tactics, but we share a belief that the American system is worth preserving, even at great cost.
please delete the spam comments (and this one too afterwards). thank you.
ReplyDelete