Sunday, January 15, 2006

Learning lessons from Iraq

Regardless of what else one thinks of the Iranian problem, one fact seems to have clearly emerged: in dealing with the Iranian threat, we are in a drastically weaker position, on almost every level, as a result of our invasion and ongoing occupation of Iraq. By severely limiting our options and consuming our resources, our war against a decrepit and impotent Saddam has made us less able to deal with real threats to our security – exactly what the dreaded war opponents insisted in advance would be the case if we went to war in Iraq.

The question of what to do about Iraq was depicted – and continues to be depicted – as a choice between courage and cowardice, strength and weakness, Churchillian resolve or Chamberlain-like appeasement. With this premise firmly in place, those who cheered on the war (from a safe distance) are courageous, manly fighters in the glorious, resolute mold of Churchill. Those who opposed the war, even on the most pragmatic and even hawkish grounds, are caricatured as cowardly pacifists wanting to appease our enemies and make America weak.

This crude depiction was always pure fantasy, a cheap cartoon, but is unmistakably being hauled out again for Iran. Here is the revealingly self-named Captain Ed already dredging up the tired, deceitful "appeasement" smear for anyone who doesn’t immediately adopt the most bellicose posture possible towards Iran:

Now would be the time for Western nations to stand together in a show of unity to demand Iranian compliance or face the imposition of a tough sanctions regime. Unfortunately, the new government of Germany took the occasion of their first visit to the US to launch the new version of appeasement they want to use . . .

This indicates that the US will shortly face the same conundrum we did with Iraq -- a major security issue on which the UNSC refused to take any action to resolve, opting instead for the illusion of status quo.

Are we really going to again fall for the "appeasement" and cowardice trick from the Captain Eds of the world? Opposition to the war in Iraq had nothing to do with "appeasement" and everything to do with pragmatic predictions – which turned out to be indisputably accurate – that invading Iraq was not justified by the level of threat it posed and, more importantly, would be far more difficult than claimed, thus rendering us weaker as a nation to confront the real threats that we faced.

The number one Appeaser-FlowerChild-Coward on Iraq was Howard Dean, whose opposition to the war was used to depict him as some sort of unholy mix of Joan Baez and Alger Hiss. And yet listen to Dean’s argument, made a month before we invaded, as to why the war was ill-advised – about how an occupation of Iraq would drain away our resources and our credibility for dealing with greater threats to our country:

And I firmly believe that the President is focusing our diplomats, our military, our intelligence agencies, and even our people on the wrong war, at the wrong time, when our energy and our resources should be marshaled for the greatest threats we face. . . .

Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred. However, that case has not been made, and I believe we should continue the hard work of diplomacy and inspection.

We must remember, though, that Iraq is not the greatest danger we face today. . . .

[L]ast month, [the President] again had the whole world listening as he gave his State of the Union Address. He devoted four paragraphs to the war against terror. He devoted sixteen to Iraq. He mentioned Saddam Hussein by name 18 times. He did not mention Osama bin Laden at all. The President sounds like a war President, but I must ask whether he is focused on the right war.

Saddam Hussein should not mistake a debate in this country about the best way to disarm him for any lack of resolve, here or elsewhere, that he must be disarmed. We will ensure that Saddam Hussein is disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. But we must be smart as well as tough.

Can anyone dispute that Dean was right about virtually every prediction he made, every warning that he issued about why invading Iraq was ill-advised and counter-productive? Any doubt about that ought to be resoundingly dispelled by this passage from his speech:

Secretary Powell's recent presentation at the UN showed the extent to which we have Iraq under an audio and visual microscope. Given that, I was impressed not by the vastness of evidence presented by the Secretary, but rather by its sketchiness. . .

We have been told over and over again what the risks will be if we do not go to war. We have been told little about what the risks will be if we do go to war. If we go to war, I certainly hope the Administration's assumptions are realized, and the conflict is swift, successful and clean. . . . It is possible, however, that events could go differently . . .

Compare this outright prescience from Dean to the war supporters’ declarations of cakewalks, predictions of glorious victory celebrations, promises that the war would pay for itself, and shrill fear-mongering about Saddam’s non-existent weapons. In light of what just happened in Iraq -- in light of how wrong the Captain Eds and other war-mongers were about essentially everything -- what rational ground exists for even listening to them on Iran, let alone being bullied again by this same "coward/appeasement" smear that is the only trick they know?

The vast majority of those who opposed the war in Iraq did so based on the pragmatic ground that the risks and costs of the war vastly outweighed the gains, and most importantly, that devoting our military and financial resources to a contained Saddam would weaken America in its ability to deal with other, more pressing threats -- beginning with Al Qaeda and extending to a nuclear-seeking North Korea and Iran.

Can there be any doubt that war opponents were exactly right that invasion of Iraq would make us far weaker in dealing with every other threat, including Iran? Even the war-mongers are acknowledging how limited our options are in dealing with Iran because we are presently occupying Iraq. Let us count the ways that our occupation of Iraq impedes our ability to deal with the Iranian threat:

First is the obvious fact that our military occupation of Iraq renders non-existent any credible threat of full-scale military action against Iran:

But behind the scenes there is no stomach for a fight. The US is the only country that could take military action. But with the US military already seriously overstretched in Iraq and with the mid-term congressional elections approaching there is no impetus in the White House or in Congress for another military adventure.

And the Iranians know this, of course (h/t The Moderate Voice):

"The Americans cannot do anything to us at the moment - they're a bunch of donkeys stuck in the mud of Iraq," said Tayebeh Biniaz, a chemistry tutor, wrapping her black chador tightly against the freezing winter wind.

And then there is the fact that the large numbers of soldiers we have in Iraq, along with our dependance on the good will of Iraqi Shiites, makes even targeted air strikes in Iran, which would result in scores of civilian deaths, virtually impossible -- so says no less of a war-lover than Victor Davis Hanson:

But 2006 is not 1981. We are in war with Islamic radicalism, at the moment largely near the Iranian border in Iraq and Afghanistan. The resulting furor over a "Zionist" strike on Shia Iran might galvanize Iraqi Shiites to break with us, rather than bring them relief that the Jewish state had eliminated a nearby nuclear threat and had humiliated an age-old rival nation and bitter former enemy. Thousands of Americans are in range of Iranian artillery and short-term missile salvoes, and, in theory, we could face in Iraq a conventional enemy at the front and a fifth column at the rear. . .

The Shiite allies in Iraq might go ballistic and start up a second front as in 2004. Muslim countries, the primary beneficiaries of a disarmed Iran, would still protest loudly that some of their territories, if only for purposes of intelligence and post-operative surveillance, were used in the strike. After Iraq, a hit on Iran would confirm to the Middle East Street a disturbing picture of American preemptory wars against Islamic nations.

Nor is a strategy of supporting a coup against the democratically elected Iranian President feasible, given that our only remaining justification for our invasion of Iraq is that we are crusading to bring democracy to that region. Whatever credibility and moral leadership we had and could use right about now is pretty much non-existent for reasons that need no elaboration. And all of this is independent of the way in which our invasion of Iraq – and all of the amusing insults directed at our European allies – has weakened those alliances, which we particularly need to accomplish anything constructive inside of Iran given that we have virtually no intelligence assets there and Europe does.

The real point is that we need to avoid, first and foremost, this inane dichotomy where one’s views for dealing with foreign threats become a test of one’s courage and manhood. Not every conflict is World War II, and not every foreign policy challenge is about proving that you are Churchill and not Chamberlain.

This is the destructive paradigm that pushed us into this plainly ill-advised occupation of Iraq. It assumes in advance that the more mindlessly belligerent one is in dealing with any threat, the better. It similarly holds that those who do not join in the war dances ought not be listened to at all because the mere fact that they counsel a more restrained or subtle course exposes them as cowards and appeasers. That warped mentality – which quite deliberately confuses war-mongering for courage and wisdom -- is what led us into the mess that we are in, but there is no evidence that any of the perpetrators have learned any lessons. Quite the contrary.

Imagine a world where Saddam is still in place, sputtering around impotently and in check by stringent inspections. There has been no WMD debacle in Iraq. Our decades-long alliances are intact. Our military has been engaged only in precision strikes against actual terrorists where they are found -- rather than occupying a country of 25 millions Muslims plagued by brewing sectarian civil war -- and is therefore primed, energized, and fresh. And U.S. credibility on issues like these is what it was before we invaded Iraq, rather than what it is now. The credible threat we could pose to Iran under those circumstances is in a different universe than the virtually non-existent threat we can pose now.

Can we at least avoid being subjected this time to the childish notion – already being peddled by the same people who were wrong about essentially everything as they pushed us into invading Iraq – that anyone who does not rush to embrace the most militaristic solution possible for Iran is an appeasing, irresponsible coward who should not be taken seriously? Just look at what that mindset has wrought.

54 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:35 PM

    Shorter response to Captain Ed:

    You and what army?

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  2. Anonymous12:48 PM

    That is a great speech from Dean. I forgot how hawkish he was. I love him and even I've been influenced by the lies that he's some sort of leftist dove.

    He was 100% right and the war guys were 100% wrong in everything they said would happen. And yet the war mongers are seen as serious and responsible, and Dean is seen as a frivolous crazy guy.

    Black is White. war is Peace.

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  3. Anonymous1:15 PM

    Wow, Glenn, that was great. I think it captures the situation beautifully. I hope others adopt some of the language and arguments. Very effective.

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  4. Anonymous1:32 PM

    ...Howard Dean, whose opposition to the war was used to depict him as some sort of unholy mix of Joan Baez and Alger Hiss.

    Just had to see that again.

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  5. Anonymous1:33 PM

    Why, I was deeply moved reading Mr. Dean's speech, truly touched at his repeated admonitions that the U.S. should work closely with that pure and noble organization, the United Nations -- and to help establish other international entities that would no doubt be as virtuous and efficient. Prescient he was, indeed, to have known in February of 2003 that U.S. interests in Iraq and everywhere were safely protected by that glorious, corruption-free institution.

    As Glenn notes, that anyone would confuse him with Alger Hiss would be absurd*:

    The UN was founded at the San Francisco Conference in 1945, as the war was coming to an end. The Secretary-General at the UN conference was a distinguished gentleman names Alger Hiss, movie star-handsome, endlessly efficient and consummately charming. Hiss helped draft the UN Charter.

    *I do not endorse the insane worldview presented in that link; but the Hiss history is accurate.

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  6. Can you admit that Dean was right and you were wrong about: (a) the state of Iraq's WMD capabilities and (b) the likelihood that it would be infinitely harder to achieve the war's goals than the President and his follwers claimed? Isn't it just objectively clear that he was right about that?

    As for the UN and Alger Hiss, here is the God of the warmonger neoconservatives, The Great and Powerful Winston Chruchill, speaking about the UN in 1946:

    "It could have been prevented in my belief without the firing of a single shot, and Germany might be powerful, prosperous and honored today; but no one would listen and one by one we were all sucked into the awful whirlpool. We surely, ladies and gentlemen, I put it to you, surely, we must not let it happen again.

    This can only be achieved by reaching now, in 1946, by reaching a good understanding on all points with Russia under the general authority of the United Nations Organization and by the maintenance of that good understanding through many peaceful years, by the whole strength of the English-speaking world and all its connections. There is the solution which I respectfully offer to you in this Address to which I have given the title, 'The Sinews of Peace.'"

    Looks like Winston Churchill went soft right after the war and became an Alger Hiss, appeasing UN wuss. Too bad Captian Ed wasn't around to slap him around and toughen him up.

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  7. Anonymous2:12 PM

    Can you admit that Dean was right and you were wrong about: (a) the state of Iraq's WMD capabilities and (b) the likelihood that it would be infinitely harder to achieve the war's goals than the President and his follwers claimed? Isn't it just objectively clear that he was right about that?

    No. Dean was not right about Iraq's WMD capability -- somewhere in his paean to the United Nations (genflecting, and All Praise be Unto It) he warned that attacking Iraq might well cause Saddam to unleash his WMDs, since he would have nothing left to lose. (Which was also my primary concern when, as I did, I held ambivalence about that war; Dean and I were both wrong about that.) I will grant that deposing Saddam and establishing stability in Iraq has not been as easy as many had predicted.

    As for Churchill -- everyone after WWII was war weary, and altho he and Truman had become deeply concerned about Stalin's gobbling up vast parts of Eastern Europe, there was no will to stop him militarily. The thought of another war was, understandably, stomach-turning at that point. So, even Churchill was espousing hope that something else could be done to stop Stalin, but it would prove to be a false hope.

    And, (unknown to Churchill) the United Nations was midwifed by a Stalinist, who you have argued it is outrageous to identify with the UN-loving Howard Dean.

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  8. "the U.S. should work closely with that pure and noble organization, the United Nations -- and to help establish other international entities that would no doubt be as virtuous and efficient"

    Last November, several days after President Ahmadinejad of Iran spoke at the UN, the UN hosted a "Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People", with a large "map of Palestine" dated 1948 without the UN General Assembly partition lines of November 29, 1947 marking seperate Jewish and Arab states. The UN member state of Israel did not appear on the map at all.

    The UN has repeatedly demonstrated that it is unwilling to live up to its own resolutions. Referral to the UNSC over Iran's nuclear program would probably just end up being another photo op for the Bush bashing "Axis of Weasels".

    Eye On The UN.

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  9. There are quite a few of us who have always thought that the notion of "a choice between courage and cowardice, strength and weakness, Churchillian resolve or Chamberlain-like appeasement" was evidence of testosterone poisoning.

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  10. The power of distortive propaganda is amazing. Even if one posts a speech from Howard Dean making as clear as possible that Dean does not believe that the US needs UN approval to wage war, and that he would be in favor of unilateral war even if the UN objected provided that there was evidence of an imminent threat to the US, you will still have people come along and say how Howard Dean worships at the altar of the UN and wants to sacrifice US sovereignly to it.

    There is an almost religious need to believe that Howard Dean holds views that he has made categorically clear, again and again, he does not hold. The RNC has done a great job with that propaganda project.

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  11. Anonymous2:36 PM

    There is an almost religious need to believe that Howard Dean holds views that he has made categorically clear, again and again, he does not hold. The RNC has done a great job with that propaganda project.

    If I've read one word the RNC put out about Howard Dean vis-a-vis the UN, I don't recall it. My position is based solely on the very speech of Mr. Dean's that you linked to.

    Sure, he throws in a caveat about how -- in some unspecified circumstances -- the U.S. should act unilaterally; but otherwise, and certainly now, it should take direction from the UN and trust that that magnificently uncorrupt entity will take care of business. And oh, he wants to establish other international organizations, like criminal courts, that one presumes Mr. Dean believes this nation ought to submit.

    Yes, that will sell to Goldwater conservatives.

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  12. Are we really going to again fall for the "appeasement" and cowardice trick from the Captain Eds of the world?

    I live in rural Maine, and lo, this morning I look out the window and there's a whole conga line of bears, heading to the woods, each with his own roll of toilet paper.

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  13. Anonymous2:50 PM

    Again, this weird idea that sounding tough is more important than being right. Dean was right about Iraq; the Bush administration and conservatives were utterly wrong; yet it's supposed to be more important to talk about how mean the U.N. is than to be, you know, right. (And of course the U.N. inspectors did far better than the Bush administration in early 2003, so why exactly should U.N. corruption obscure the fact that they were right and Bush was wrong?)

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  14. Anonymous3:09 PM

    I just do not get this argument that Howard Dean was right, and those who supported Bush on Iraq were wrong because we are now purportedly so weak. Notwithstanding that silly quote from some Iranian woman claiming the U.S. can't do anything to stop that nation's lunatic leader from going nuclear, we can, and as that Victor Davis Hanson article Glenn links to states, we probably will. We will strike Iran by air, possibly with the Israelis' help. And if we don't -- due to lack of political will, not the power to act -- the Israelis will take care of the problem themselves.

    Further, as Hanson notes, this gives the Democrats -- including Howard Dean -- quite the opportunity:

    If the Democrats feel they have lost the public’s confidence in their stewardship of national security, then the threat of Iran offers a Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, or John Kerry an opportunity to get out front now and pledge support for a united effort — attacking Bush from the right about too tepid a stance rather from the predictable left that we are “hegemonic” and “imperialistic” every time we use force abroad.

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  15. There is a distinction to be made between objecting to America submitting itself to the authority of corrupt international bodies and the objection in principle to America submitting itself to any authority outside itself, period.

    There is also a distinction to be made between recognzing flaws in the UN and recognizing the need for such an organization to exist.

    These sorts of points usually get tossed together when this subject comes up, although a nuanced discussion should consider them seperately.

    Its also nice to see that John Birch Society fear of the UN and ever present Communist conspiracy has managed to make its way mainstream.

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  16. Anonymous3:24 PM

    That's why Dean should have been the nominee instead of the handpicked DLC dipshit. And, many Dems across the country need to look in the mirror.

    He would have wiped the floor with Bush and given people a clear choice. Instead we got this mealy mouth cowardly campaign that didn't deserve to win.

    It wouldn't be left to the corporate media whores and people like Capt. Ed to define what Dean is. The debates would have solved that little issue.

    Sorry for the rant, but everytime I read about how Dean was right (I knew it, and deep down we all knew it at the time) I flip out.

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  17. Anonymous3:47 PM

    chris:

    "That's why Dean should have been the nominee "

    I absolutely AGREE with you. Allah willing, Dean will be the Democratic nominee in '08.

    Please God...make it so!

    Regards;

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  18. Anonymous3:51 PM

    Oh yes, Chris, Howard Dean was so right, especially in his deep trust in the United Nations. Like virtually everyone else, Dean believed Saddam had WMDs. From that February 2003 Dean speech Glenn linked to, all emphasis mine:


    [Saddam] has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. ...


    So I want to be clear.

    Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given...

    Saddam Hussein should not mistake a debate in this country about the best way to disarm him for any lack of resolve, here or elsewhere, that he must be disarmed. We will ensure that Saddam Hussein is disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. ...

    The CIA and Defense Department have indicated that, by far, the most likely scenario for Saddam using chemical or biological weapons - or sponsoring a terrorist attack - would be precisely if we invaded Iraq, because then he would have nothing to lose.

    Neither President Bush in the State of the Union nor Secretary Powell at the UN mentioned that intelligence assessment. And it is just one of many issues the President has not yet adequately addressed.

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  19. Anonymous4:01 PM

    Like virtually everyone else, Dean believed Saddam had WMDs.

    And like every sane person, Dean believed that what was known about Saddam's WMD capability suggested that he was not a serious threat to the U.S., and that a war would make things worse, not better.

    Yes, "everyone" thought Saddam had some kind of WMD capability. But within that framework, some people were right that Saddam was not a true threat, and some lied and distorted to make him seem that way.

    Howard Dean, who was serious about foreign policy, was right. The Bush administration and its supporters were and are not serious about terrorism or foreign policy; for that, you need to go to liberal Democrats like Howard Dean.

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  20. I just do not get this argument that Howard Dean was right, and those who supported Bush on Iraq were wrong because we are now purportedly so weak.

    It's painfully obvious that you don't understand the argument. The argument is not that Howard Dean was right in 2003 because we are weak now. The argument is that, in 2003, the case had not been proven that Saddam Hussein posed as great of a threat as many other countries did, and we needed to keep our powder dry to deal with those other threats whenever they presented themselves. Using up our troops against unproven threats presents the risk that the troops will not be ready if we should come across a proven threat. That was the argument in 2003. In 2006, it has become painfully obvious to all but the most obtuse or idiot-logically blinkered how wise of an argument that was, but it was a good argument back then as well.

    As for the state of our knowledge back in 2003, when the UN inspectors went back in, they found all sealed materials as they had been when they left them in 1998. Every lead pointed out by the U.S. government came up empty. This is not proof that Saddam didn't have those weapons, but it is proof positive that we had no idea what he had. To any intelligent person, this was a big blinking red light to stop and double-check what our sources were telling us. Unfortunately we didn't heed the light.

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  21. And yes, Hypatia, the argument is "even if" Saddam had chemical or biological weapons. They can be nasty pollutants for decades, but they have a "use-by" date of only a few years, after which they become ineffective as weapons. And to mount an effective attack, you need tons of the stuff, and you need a delivery mechanism. Which is why Dean was talking about Saddam attacking invading troops with chemical or biological weapons, because Saddam had NO capability of getting whatever little he had out of Iraq.

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  22. Anonymous4:28 PM

    ploeg writes: It's painfully obvious that you don't understand the argument. The argument is not that Howard Dean was right in 2003 because we are weak now. The argument is that, in 2003, the case had not been proven that Saddam Hussein posed as great of a threat as many other countries did, and we needed to keep our powder dry to deal with those other threats whenever they presented themselves.

    Glenn is arguing that we are weak now; that may not be your argument, but it is his.

    Further, I find it absurd to suggest that the U.S. lacks the military power to take out Iran's nuclear capability. Of course we can, and I think likely will -- or we will let Israel do it. The issue is political, not lack of power.

    But, if I'm so ignorant, then please riddle me this: The going theme -- presented at this blog and elsewhere -- is that the invasion of Iraq was a Jew-led, neocon plot to assist Israel. If our having invaded Iraq has actually made everything worse, and if there now is no way to forestall Iran's going nuclear and becoming a very dire threat to Israel, were all these neocon plotters very stupid about understanding their own interests? Was Israel behaving moronically by not begging the United States to refrain from deposing Saddam?

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  23. Anonymous4:31 PM

    Great post Glenn.
    The tactic of using an unrelated distortion of fact and repeating it over and over again to make it appear to be the truth has been a very successful ploy used by Republicans. It is time for Democrats to respond only to the issues and ignore the bullshit distractions by going back to the main issue over and over again.
    The Republicans, DLC Democrats and the media distorted Dean's ideas and statements throughout the primary and are still doing it. Why? Just maybe, because he wanted to get big corporations out of our government and give it back to the people where it belongs.

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  24. Anonymous4:35 PM

    Which is why Dean was talking about Saddam attacking invading troops with chemical or biological weapons, because Saddam had NO capability of getting whatever little he had out of Iraq.

    And, of course, Howard Dean was strongly criticizing the Bush Administration for not paying attention to intellgence which he felt made it likely that Saddam would unleash WMDs on the troops -- and terrorist attacks with WMDs -- if we invaded Iraq. I worried about that as well, and fortunately, Dean was wrong.

    But don't forget: "Bush lied!" Dean, of course, was merely mistaken.

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  25. Hypatia:

    Yes, that will sell to Goldwater conservatives.

    Only if Dean tosses in a promise to take fluoride out of the water and preserve our Purity Of Essence.

    Your antipathy to the U.N. (and your complaints abuot U.N. corruption in the face of billions of U.S. "reconstruction" money unaccounted for) aside, the U.N. was doing a perfectly good job of finding out what was happening in Iraq. It is, warts and all, a pretty good organisation.

    But that won't change the "POE" crew's views in the least. but for that, I just don't guve a damn. I don't think it's in our best interests to allow paranoids and ERW Commie-hating nutzos to direct U.S. foreign policy. And the "POE" folks can just go such an egg.

    Cheers,

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  26. Hypatia (quoting Dean< I guess):

    "[Saddam] has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War...."

    Not accounting for WoMD that may or may not still exist is not at all the same as knowing where they are, East, West, North and South around Baghdad and Tikrit.

    Not that you'd be able to figure that out.

    Nonetheless, Dean clearly thought that the U.N. teams could (and should) resolve any discrepancies.

    Cheers,

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  27. Anonymous4:47 PM

    I hate to say it but this may end up being a case for preemptive action. I was never onboard with Iraq mind you and I get sick of keyboard cowboys that feel calling for military action somehow gives them more hair on their testicles. It's just here you have an actual diplomatic effort being made, a country that actually does have ties to terrorists (Hezbollah), a president that said Israel should be "wiped off the map,” and a country which is pursuing nuclear weapons. Of course we can't commit troops but I imagine if the diplomatic actions fail (and without China and Russia being onboard they will) there will be airstrikes if not by us then certainly Israel.

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  28. Anonymous4:56 PM

    The going theme -- presented at this blog and elsewhere -- is that the invasion of Iraq was a Jew-led, neocon plot to assist Israel.

    This is the "going theme" among wingnuts, not liberals, who mostly believe the Iraq war was carried out for a variety of reasons: ideological (Wolfowitz), electoral (Bush) and eagerness to test crackpot military theories (Rumsfeld).

    Was Israel behaving moronically by not begging the United States to refrain from deposing Saddam?

    As it turns out, yes. But then, Israel mistakenly assumed that the Bush administration was competent.

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  29. Anonymous5:10 PM

    It [the UN] is, warts and all, a pretty good organisation.

    But that won't change the "POE" crew's views in the least. but for that, I just don't guve a damn. I don't think it's in our best interests to allow paranoids and ERW Commie-hating nutzos to direct U.S. foreign policy. And the "POE" folks can just go such an egg.


    Fine, but at this blog Glenn has argued that Goldwater conservatives should hate George Bush, and he has repeatedly lauded Howard Dean. People who believe the caricature of all Goldwater conservatives that you do, would be of no assistance in steering them toward any candidate.

    The United Nations is, to a great extent, a hugely expensive and corrupt joke. One of the most entertaining articles I've read on its antics (unfortunately not available online) is Walter Berns' 1981 piece, Where the majority Rules: A UN Diary. Prof Berns was tapped by the Reagan Administration to represent the U.S. in a wholly futile exercise, namely, A United Nations Seminar on Human Rights, Peace and Development. Cuba, Algeria, the Soviet Union -- they were all there, and pushing for collective rights to development, jobs, and condemnation of Israel.

    Prof Berns annoyed them ever so greatly, by repeatedly demanding that the UN bundle with such collective rights, and to be voted on as a package deal, this resolution: "The right of a people not to be governed without its consent is also an inalienable right." Well Lordy Moses, the USSR, Cuba and Algeria were having none of that. And when Prof Berns pointed out that rights have corresponding duties, and used the American right to speak freely and the govt's obligation to protect that right, the Soviet representative advised Prof Berns that citizens in the USSR also have the right to speak freely, to which Berns replied: "that is nice, then ask[ed] (pretending not to know the answer) who has the duty that corresponds to a country's right to development?"

    Algeria demanded a resolution calling upon the UN to guarantee the rights of the Palestinian people "to freely determine their political status and exercise their human rights as a prerequisite to achieve peace and development." Prof Berns said he could go along with that, provided that after the words "Palestinian people," are added: "the people of Israel, the people of Afghanistan and the people of Cambodia." As Berns then reports: "To put it mildly, no consensus is reached on this, and the wrangling becomes somewhat nasty." The Soviet representative says he simply cannot understand Prof Berns. No doubt.

    It really is too bad Berns' greatly amusing Diary of his time spent at a wholly political and utterly futile -- and expensive -- UN project is not available on the Internet. Then perhaps some of you might understand why championing the beauty and integrity of the United Nations is a loser issue with many Americans, and not only with those who wish to preserve their precious bodily fluids. If you are a Democrat, you accept that caricature at your party's peril.

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  30. Anonymous5:17 PM

    I read the Berns article when it was collected in a book (I think it was called "Heterodoxy"). It was entertaining, but doesn't prove the uselessness of the U.N. any more than an insider account of the U.S. Senate proves the uselessness of that body (although....)

    The fact is, the U.N. inspectors in 2003 were more accurate, more honest and all-around more right than the Bush administration. Foam-flecked U.N.-haters have to ignore or elide the obvious fact that the Bush administration was wrong, and meekly cowtowing to the U.N. in this case would have been better for American interests.

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  31. Anonymous5:37 PM

    MA quotes me: "The going theme -- presented at this blog and elsewhere -- is that the invasion of Iraq was a Jew-led, neocon plot to assist Israel."

    And replies:

    This is the "going theme" among wingnuts, not liberals, who mostly believe the Iraq war was carried out for a variety of reasons: ideological (Wolfowitz), electoral (Bush) and eagerness to test crackpot military theories (Rumsfeld).

    I had not realized that Glenn Greenwald is a wingnut, as he must be for having posted:
    American neocons, WMD Intelligence, and Israel: the Forbidden Topic


    Excerpts:

    whether one of the motivations for the war was a desire on the part of the “neo-cons” to bolster the security of Israel by ridding the world of one of Israel's most threatening menaces, Saddam Hussein....

    What accounts for this climate of fear when it comes to discussing this issue is that the ranks of prominent, influential neo-conservatives, both in the Government and the media, are disproportionately Jewish. But what really defines this group is not that they are Jewish, which is merely incidental, but that they are zealous, fanatical, pro-Israeli crusaders -- crusaders for both that country generally and militarily aggressive Israeli political policies specifically. That is the tie that binds neo-conservatives when it comes to Israel, and it is that attribute, rather than their Jewishness, which compels a discussion of the motives of these most passionate pro-war advocates. ...

    The individuals at the heart of the pre-war selling of the war have a deep emotional bond with Israel. For years before 9/11, many of them were vigorously and actively crusading to have war waged in order to get rid of Saddam. And there is simply no reasonable person who can dispute that getting rid of Saddam was one of the most pressing and important goals for Israeli national security....

    Under these circumstances, and in light of all of these facts, it is not only reasonable, but unavoidable, to ask whether these intensely pro-Israeli individuals became such zealous advocates of the war and played such a critical role in causing it to happen at least in part because that war would be so monumentally, even incomparably, beneficial to the security of Israel.


    Truly, I had not realized that Jews in general, and Israel in particular, are idiots who lobby for a military action that is actually going to make their security situation worse. (Or has it been "incomparably beneficial" to their security interests? This is all so confusing.) Amazing, what one learns on the Internet.

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  32. Anonymous5:55 PM

    The fact is, the U.N. inspectors in 2003 were more accurate, more honest and all-around more right than the Bush administration. Foam-flecked U.N.-haters have to ignore or elide the obvious fact that the Bush administration was wrong, and meekly cowtowing to the U.N. in this case would have been better for American interests.

    And were I a Republican, I would encourage you and every Democrat on the planet, to say that, loudly and long. You should insist that the United Nations -- where tyrants defend their interests and cause to be issued tyranny-enabling resolutions and reports -- is no different than the United States Senate. You should tell them the Democratic Party fully embraces the UN's obsessive hatred of Israel, and doesn't think Cambodians or other oppressed peoples merit the same rights to self-government as do the Palestinians. Yup, you should tell them that all this totalitarian lobbying at the UN is no different than what goes in, say, the Senate Judiciary Committee. Insist to Americans that if they think otherwise, they are foam-spitting paranoids and Birchers.

    Were I a Republican, I'd be begging you to do all of that.

    And the book containing Berns' 1981 indictment of the sickness at the UN is entitled Orthodoxy. I own it.

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  33. Anonymous6:02 PM

    Appeasement. Britain, France, Germany, and Russia are trying to appease America on Iran, hoping they can drag it out until Bush is out of office.

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  34. And were I a Republican, I would encourage you and every Democrat on the planet, to say that, loudly and long.

    Nobody said anything about the UN problems that you are yelling about. Nobody has endorsed submitting Us foreign policy to UN approval or veto power. You're ranting against phantoms and cliches.

    You apparently read a book from 25 years ago that talked about how the UN is bad and now think that we should not use the UN for anything. But the reality is, had we allowed the UN inspections process to take its course, we would be in much better shape to address the Iranian nuclear threat, not to mention Al Qaeda. The fact that Libya once sat on the Human Rights Commission doesn't change that reality.

    In case you haven't noticed, you are in an ever-shrinking minority when it comes to this war. A majority of Americans is now against it and think that it was a mistake - they believe that we should have followed the course that Howard Dean recommended, and that George Bush's pro-war view was wrong.

    It's always odd when people run around acting like their pro-war views are shared by virtually everyone save for a few marginalized freaks and socialists, when polls have been showing for well over a year now that the majority of Americans - including huge numbers who originally supported the war - now believe it was a mistake to have commenced it.

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  35. Anonymous7:27 PM

    I first read Walter Berns, it is true, 25 years ago, but the book in which his article (along with others of the best of The American Spectator magazine) is collected was publised in '87. Berns today is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, this is his CV.

    So, I think he knows what he is talking about when he dismisses the UN as a nest of insanity. That one article is merely illustrative, hardly exhaustive, of why this is so, and was written well before we learned that some of the nations most against invading Iraq were profiting from the Oil for Food scam.

    Of course, it is possible that UN inspections of Saddam's WMD program could have been the magic solution that all had been waiting a few decades for, suddenly found and ready to be perfect on the eve of the decision to do something definitive. But even if that is so, it is still going to be hard to sell the American public on Howard Dean's reverential attitude toward the UN and other proposed international organizations.

    As to other issues of American public opinion, I do realize that support for the war in Iraq is low. My views on almost anything are not dictated by opinion polls. And those polls would not explain why that war simultaneously greatly benefited Israel and imperilled its interests.

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  36. Public opinion varied too when President Reagan launched "Operation El Dorado Canyon" against Libya in 1986. John Kerry wanted to pursue sanctions through the UN. Hypatia correctly points out that President Reagan did not take the UN seriously and like President Bush, he was right not to. After the United States invaded Iraq, Colonel Qaddafi declared Libya's clandestine nuclear weapons program, and surrendered the equipment and material to the U.S. The extent of Libya's nuclear program, by the way, was almost unknown to the IAEA and the UN before Colonel Qaddafi volunteered to disarm.

    China Daily story.

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  37. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Hypatia, you need to read Sic Semper Tyrannis on the capacity to bomb Iran. We do not have it. We could maybe mount the kind of air assault necessary but it would tax our air assests globally. And there is no guarantee it would do anything. Plus it would incite what little credibility we have with Shiites in Iraq. Your fantasizing if you think we have the military power to confront Iran now. Pat Lang is definitely in a position to understand what would be required militarily.

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  38. Anonymous9:55 PM

    Some Guy writes: Hypatia, you need to read Sic Semper Tyrannis on the capacity to bomb Iran. We do not have it. We could maybe mount the kind of air assault necessary but it would tax our air assests globally.

    So which is it? We do not have the capacity to do it, or we could mount the kind of air assault necessary?

    Do you doubt for one second that either we, or Israel -- and possibly even a UN-sanctioned (yes, I know how I open myself up here) coalition -- will take out Iran's nuclear capacity, if diplomacy fails, as it appears to be doing?

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  39. Anonymous10:52 PM

    Iran and Libya took two different lessons from the invasion of Iraq. Libya decided to open up and end its programs in return for economic oppurtunity and Iran decided what they were just dandy and all they really needed is nuclear weapons. On balance we would be equipped to deal with Iran if we had not invaded Iraq but we may not have gotten the positive Lybian result if Saddam had merely been inspected and contained.

    As far as the US invasion being "for Israel" that noted Jewish neocon, George Bush said as much. He repeatedly made the claim that a free Iraq would be a friend to Israel. I do not believe that was one of the main motives but it was offered up as a benefit. It is not some secretive conspiracy it was right out there in front the whole time

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  40. Anonymous11:46 PM

    It's really mind-boggling that we are debating whether Howard Dean was right or not in 2003.

    Hypatia, I completely believe that you are a Dem. You are one of the reasons we keep getting our asses kicked.

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  41. Anonymous1:34 AM

    Many of us at the time, actually, did not think there were WMDs in Iraq, or at least were very skeptical about it, for a few reasons.

    First of all, we news junkies knew back then that Bush's neocon advisors had an agenda of attacking Iraq, and establishing, or rather strengthening, a permanent military presence in the region to defend America's "interests," whether Saddam was still in power or not, as laid out in their revealing document, "Rebuilding America's Defenses". I had suspicions too, which were later confirmed, that Bush also had his own personal and political motives. And I didn't know then for sure, but certainly suspected, that Cheney had entirely venal reasons for attacking.

    Second, we had Scott Ritter telling us there were no such weapons any more, I listened to one of his recorded speeches before the war and it was persuasive.
    (Here's a site with Ritter's latest forecasts.)

    And third, everything Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld did and said in the run-up to the war had a kind of bad acting quality to it. For example, Bush would say that he was working for peace and that war was a last resort, but those sentences would sound out of place and insincere in the context of surrounding sentences, and behavior. And then there was the embarrassment when Saddam did indeed agree to inspections again - which the administration had banked on being so humiliating and invasive that he would refuse - as proven by Bush and his spokesmens' reaction, which was to continue to talk as if he hadn't agreed - in another example of what Glenn has been calling "distortionary propaganda." It seems so obvious even as it is occurring, once you become aware of the methodology, and then you just feel frustrated that people don't seem to see that when they turn on the tv, they are looking into funhouse mirrors.

    And now in speeches, Bush still says that Saddam had the option to allow the inspectors back in but refused - just plain rewriting straightforward facts, which, unfortunately, the Ministry of Truth accepts without challenge as if it all happened just as he said.

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  42. Anonymous2:57 AM

    Brambling,

    Were all your sources as good as Scott Ritter?

    Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector, was arrested in June 2001, but he will not explain why. Some news reports claim that in April 2001 he tried to arrange a sexual encounter with a 14 year old girl that he met on the Internet, and in June 2001 he tried to arrange an encounter with a 16 year old girl, but in both cases he encountered police officers instead.
    For more info on Ritter's arrest:
    worldnetdaily.com
    nydailynews.com #1
    nydailynews.com #2

    Says the "Dog"

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  43. Anonymous3:19 AM

    Yup, that's relevant. Don't like the facts... attack the messenger.

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  44. It seems to me that all of the comments here ignore the biggest 'lesson' our invasion may have taught our potential enemies in the region: namely, that _the only protection against American military force is the possession of WMDs -- particularly nuclear weapons_. By invading Iraq 'in bad faith', Bush has shredded the trust required of sovereign peoples to forego the possession of nuclear weapons and rely instead on fair treatment at the hands of the international community (through treaties and imperfect organizations like the U.N.).

    I think this is one of the main reasons Bush's decision was so catastrophic ... and why the decision to withdraw is so problematic.

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  45. It seems to me that all of the comments here ignore the biggest 'lesson' our invasion may have taught our potential enemies in the region: namely, that _the only protection against American military force is the possession of WMDs -- particularly nuclear weapons_.

    This is an important point you make; it arose about a week ago in one of the Comments section here. If you press war advocates (especially the ones who sing the song of Exporting Democracy and consigning bad dictators to the trash heap and all of that) about why we allow North Korea to sit unmolested, they will acknowledge - because they must - that we leave North Korea in peace because they have nuclear weapons and we therefore cannot attack them.

    Which is, of course, precisely why Iran wants them. If I were Iran, I would, too, because Bush has created a world order where the rational leaders of hostile countries are incentivized to acquire nuclear weapons to ensure that we won't invade them.

    As for Brambling's point, if you read Hans Blix interviews, he talks about how UN inspectors had essentially full-scale cooperation from the Iraqis in conducting the inspections in Jan & Feb, 2003. And yet George Bush continues to say, with a straight face, that Saddam had the option of avoiding war by allowing the inspectors in, but he refused, and it's this claim is never challenged.

    I don't use the word "lie" to describe what the Administration did before the war re: WMD intelligence becuase I don't think it's accurate, but that claim does qualify.

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  46. Anonymous11:33 AM

    It was all spiel, to sell their, well, snake oil to be precise, to the American public. Whether or not they were point blank lying about the existence of any such weapons (they had the same info Ritter had, surely), they were certainly hyping the level of threat to the United States with their mushroom cloud imagery. (One of several underlying distortionary assumptions, never explored or challenged by anyone, was that Saddam would be suicidal enough to initiate a war against us.)

    So even if they were merely exaggerating (as opposed to wholecloth inventing) the weapons threat posed by Saddam, they were - don't you think? - lying about their real motives for going to war.

    I don't think they all had equally slimy motivations. From what I have heard, Wolfowitz probably had the least venal reasons and did feel the Mideast needed to be democratized - that the US policy of supporting brutal dictatorships in the Middle East was backfiring into anti-US sentiment.

    In any case, when Bush was made president (and without requiring tanks in the streets, too, I remember one newscaster musing without apparent irony, as he praised democracy and gazed down the relatively empty streets full of tanks and cops during the first GW Inaugural) it was clear enough that these guys were very military/industrial/complexy and belligerent, and would try to drag us into some kind of war: The Onion had the scoop.

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  47. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Oh for Christ's sake, here is the link: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2006/01/on_a_nuclear_ir.html

    If you read it your will understand that yes, conceivably we could pound Iran with a lot but it would take such an effort as to be highly impractical. And it is not clear that such an impractical exercise would do anything. So in reality, bombing is not an option although theoretically we could put massive tonnage in Iran.

    To blithely assert we can just do it by air as if it is a foregone conclusion isn't correct.

    Pat Lang knows the mid-east as well as anyone, and if you read his bio you will know why.

    And yes, I doubt heavily we will resort to violence. Also, if you read Lang's post you will understand Israel cannot do it. The early 80's example is completely different than today and that is exactly what Lang explains. YOU are the one who is operating on a fantasy.

    By the way, Lang is a conservative, served in Vietnam for many years, and has unimpeachable credentials. Except for the fact that he does not buy the nonsense this WH spews.

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  48. Anonymous12:48 PM

    P.S. On this notion that we can simply make what we want to have happen militarily. It was a drastic overestimation of our abilities to think we could invade Iraq and install a government at the point of a gun. Even if it does not devolve into unequivocal civil war, we have strained our military terribly. We did not have a half a million troops to put into Iraq so all the talk about more being necessary was effectively talk about how we could not do it.

    That same notion of near infinite power will delude many into thinking we can just bomb Iran and make it come to heel. Not likely. And I don't think the current president of Iran is hamrless or that Iran getting nukes is a small matter. I mean we are not nearly as capacious militarily as we like to think and Iraq, as Glenn points out, has made us actually quite vulnerable.

    I notice how those who want to defend this war seldom directly answer the problems of troop rotation, declining enlistments, or simply logistical points like "which troops are you talking" about when the rattle their sabers. On the facts, not slogans, how is that our military is not much weaker now than it was before we went into Iraq? And how does the current situation make it all but impossible for use to militarily respond to threats? The air force is mighty but not magical.

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  49. Anonymous1:25 PM

    Chris writes: Hypatia, I completely believe that you are a Dem. You are one of the reasons we keep getting our asses kicked.


    Oh, I'm not a Democrat. Not a Republican, either. It does happen to be the fact, however, that my favorite statesman is a Republican. Congressman Paul is a libertarian, and if the GOP were primarily constituted of like-minded others, I would enthusiastically join it. (Or the Democratic Party, if it was teeming with Ron Pauls.)

    But it isn't, so I don't. Anyway, you will have to look for other explanations as to why your party keeps getting its butt kicked.

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  50. Anonymous4:35 PM

    ballgame:

    "It seems to me that all of the comments here ignore the biggest 'lesson' our invasion may have taught our potential enemies in the region: namely, that _the only protection against American military force is the possession of WMDs -- particularly nuclear weapons_."

    Really? I'd posit that the biggest lesson is precisely the opposite.

    Trying to cook up WMD's, especially nuclear ones, is the quickest way to get a laser designator painted on your head.

    "Bush has shredded the trust required of sovereign peoples to forego the possession of nuclear weapons and rely instead on fair treatment at the hands of the international community"

    ballgame, this is so breathtakingly naiive a statement as to beggar belief.

    Open your eyes and take a good look around the Middle East.
    Show me the democracy with a free press and real opposition parties.
    You'll find three...Israel, Turkey, and now Iraq.
    The rest are monarchies and dictatorships.

    So this notion of yours that "the trust of sovereign peoples" means a damned thing in these kinds of regimes is frankly quite ridiculous.

    And especially so in Iran's case.

    All reports, and I mean ALL of 'em, indicate that the people of Iran are pretty pro-American, and fed up to here with the very real and very unpleasant theocracy that they're living under.
    But...there goes their government...cooking up the plutonium, dissing the IAEA, showing the Euros the extent of their impotence, and causing late nights for Israeli and US strike planners.

    Regards;

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  51. Trying to cook up WMD's, especially nuclear ones, is the quickest way to get a laser designator painted on your head.

    I think North Korea's Dear Leader would beg to differ. We were sending a lot of bellicose threats his way until it became clear that he had at least a couple of nice shiny nuclear weapons ready to use, near, for instance, the 37,000 troops we have stationed on his border. That put a stop to the bellicose threats pretty quickly, and nobody asks anymore why we aren't taking action against North Korea. The answer is obvious.

    We had 3 countries on our Axis of Evil. The one without the weapons got attacked. The one with the weapons got left alone. What message do you think that sends to everyone else, including the remaining member on the list?

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  52. Anonymous5:49 PM

    G-squared:

    "We had 3 countries on our Axis of Evil. The one without the weapons got attacked. The one with the weapons got left alone. What message do you think that sends to everyone else, including the remaining member on the list? "

    That there's a whole lotta difference between HAVING them and TRYING to have them.

    Regards;

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  53. Hypatia:

    Fine, but at this blog Glenn has argued that Goldwater conservatives should hate George Bush, and he has repeatedly lauded Howard Dean.

    Depends if you think that "Goldwater conservatives" are the same thing as screaming Birchers and foaming Freeptards, I guess. I was under the impression that Goldwater conservatives were supposed to be the more intellectually honest and at least halfway sane portion of the RW crew. They may be conservative, but they're supposedly more principled in their conservatism, and not screaming nutzo paranoids. IIRC, Goldwater himself in his later years decried what the more "conservative" faction of the Republican party had become ... and it's these 'faux' "conservatives" that now go kissing Dubya's rosy red ass every time he does yet another "big gummint" and "internationalist" swipe at everything they hold dear.... Lordy, lordy, but power corrupts.

    But correct me if I'm wrong, OK?

    Cheers,

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  54. Anonymous8:51 PM

    What's the point of this entire post Glenn?

    Isn't it just criticism for criticism's sake?

    Even if your claims that our military is weakened by being in Iraq (which I do not agree is true), but even if that were true, so what?

    By this I mean, we all know that if the democraps were in power we would have not invaded Iraq; that Hussein would have by now bribed enough UN officials and countries to have all sanctions and monitoring ended; would be busily now restarting his WMD and NUCLEAR weapons programs (or continuing them strong in Libya); that Pakistani scientists would still be peddling nuclear weapon technology to Al Qaeda and every other terrorist state with more money than sense; and that as Iran marched towards nuclear weapons and better missiles the democraps if they were in power would do NOTHING about it, except urge that a really strong letter be sent to the mullah's by the UN or France or something.

    So really, since the democat alternative is to do NOTHING about Iran, cut military spending, kill strategic missile defense etc., and never absolutely never use military force except against misguided christian citizens here in the USA, WHAT'S THE FRIGGIN POINT OF COMPLAINING THAT REPUBLICANS CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IRAN BECAUSE OF IRAQ WHEN THE WHOLE FRIGGIN COUNTRY KNOWS THAT THE DEMOCRATS WOULDN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IRAN EVEN IF WE WEREN'T IN IRAQ???

    Complaining and bitching just for the sake of complaining and bitching. That's what I see.

    Says the "Dog"

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