Many blogs have "comments policies" and most bloggers have their own practices for when, if ever, they are willing to respond to other bloggers who disagree with posts they write. I have never promulgated any sort of "comments policy" or even talked about these issues because I try to avoid these sorts of self-referential meta-blog discussions. But sometimes they are unavoidable, and since several comment threads here have recently encompassed these issues, it seems constructive to say a few words about these matters.
I am a vigorous believer in the virtues of debate and the clash of opposing ideas. As enthusiastic a proponent as I have become of the unique value of the blogosphere, its one glaring deficiency is that many (perhaps most) bloggers (much more so on the Right, but not uncommonly on the Left) avoid interaction with any individuals or ideas which dissent from their own views, preferring to preach to choirs and/or "arguing" for their view in a harmonious, dissent-free echo chamber. For this reason, many bloggers don't even allow comments, won't respond to anyone's critiques of their opinions unless forced into it, or, most pitifully of all, allow only those comments in agreement with their views while cowardly and immediately deleting all comments which disagree.
I honestly think that this blog has some of the most substantive and high-level comment discussions anywhere. And a big part of why this is so is because there are lots of commenters here who disagree, often vehemently, with my views and with the views of many other commenters here, and they articulate their disagreements substantively and intelligently, which prompts more thinking and more debate. Virtually every comment section here contains commenters arguing why my post is wrong or why the views of regular commenters here are misguided. I'm glad that's the case and hope it stays that way. I think that knowing that your views will be subject to disagreement makes one more diligent about advancing only meritorious and intellectually honest views.
At the same time, there are individuals who come here (and everywhere else) with no intent other than to disrupt or to vent their own frustrations and emotions and who, therefore, aren't interested in (or capable of) meaningful debate. They just engage in conclusory assertions or cliched name-calling (we're "leftist Bush-haters with Bush Derangement Syndrome," etc.) and have minds that are as closed as they are boring and uncreative. I don't believe in deleting comments or banning anyone (other than for extreme acts of deliberate disruption, a standard I would apply very permissively). So I leave it to every participant here to decide for themselves which commenters are worth engaging and which ones ought to be ignored.
And I deliberately seek out debate and disagreement with bloggers who have different views than mine because I believe that doing so creates innumerable benefits. It strengthens one's own arguments to subject them to formidable critique; exposing the fallacies and inconsistencies of Bush followers can be beneficial in lots of ways; and I think the blogosphere is healthier, more vibrant and more interesting if people with different ideas are communicating with and debating one another rather than smugly ignoring each other and celebrating their own cleverness without opposition.
The unique value of the blogosphere is that it facilitates debate and disagreement so potently. Every argument is preserved; every fact can be easily checked and verified; and accountability can be compelled. In general, my view is that the more substantive debate and direct disagreement there is, the better.
"..individuals who come here (and everywhere else) with no intent other than to disrupt or to vent their own frustrations and emotions and who, therefore, aren't interested in (or capable of) meaningful debate.."
ReplyDeleteAnd they do have a word for that - as far I know - and as I've previously used this term to you before, Glenn, it's do hope that you understand it correctly:
A *TROLL* commentator.
Is the bloggosphere description for what you cite above.
Meaningful and constructive debates and commenatary are always good (even the silly ones - as I'm occassionally guilty of myself) - but mere *Trollery* is not helpful. Nor does it foster a good back-and-forth dialogue.
And thanks for the view that "...the more substantive debate and direct disagreement there is, the better."
At TalkLeft, there is a comment policy that specifically relates to profanity. We've found that when people start spouting a blue streak in the comments that the site starts getting filtered by the nanny software often installed at law firms, public libraries, and other places where readers come from.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, there are two or three "chatterers" who like to come in and hijack the conversation for no reason other than to hijack the conversation. These people get limited to four comments a day until they learn how to engage constructively.
I read your blog every day now for exactly the reasons you have described. It is the most substantive discussion of the issues that I can find on the Web. Your blog is different because of this and demonstrates the power of blogs and Web discourse. Kudos to you. I truly appreciate your contribution. As you say, trolls do not contribute one way or the other to the conversation, according to your rules and become insignificant. Only a valid point, with good evidence, gets attention.
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your posts and the subsequent debate. Keep up the good work...
Bart da Troll
allow only those comments in agreement with their views while cowardly and immediately deleting all comments which disagree.
ReplyDeleteFYI, Brad DeLong is one of the worst on this score. He doesn't do this 100% of the time, but quite a bit of the time, he ruthlessly deletes even the most innocuous comments that he disagrees with.
nerdoff - you mean s/he doesn't?
ReplyDeleteI did a little multimedia piece on this a while back, Partisan Parrots & Trolls.
ReplyDeleteBesides Glenn's fantastic work here, I also like this blog precisely because it does support alternative views in the comments...Hypatia being a good example. I've seen several times when Hypatia has been unfairly attacked, when other posters have come to her support.
ReplyDeleteThese are dangerous times, and it's going to take action and cooperation from both sides to preserve our consitutional rights.
Ignore the trolls, respond in honest debate with those who disagree but have solid, heartfelt positions. We all can learn from another.
neroff,
ReplyDeleteWow, your posts must be some of the "...most substantive and high-level comment discussions..." Glenn must have been referring to. I must admit that you have totally opened my eyes & personally changed my mind regarding Michelle Malkin & her comment policy. I think she removed the comments section because people were unable to rationally counter her views or opinions w/o resorting to using sexual references & ethic slurs, glad to see that that doesn't occur here. If you're joking, it is juvenile & un-funny.
Pro or con, if you allow individuals to hide under the guise of anonymity, you are doing nothing but allowing others to elevate your blood pressure when they turn it personal.
ReplyDeleteWhether you are Conservative or Liberal, there can be no meaningful debate unless the opportunity to influence another to change or modify their viewpoint. That is the purpose of debate.
It has been my experience, that those who comment without attaching their name or nickname, and a link to their own blog or website, do so purely to cause trouble.
Those who do so under a guise of anonymity do so purely to be a thorn in the side of the author of the thread. Either attach your name and reputation to your words or keep your mouth shut, that is my point of view... /rant
Posting under one's own name, when commenting on political matters especially, is an idea that could make sense in certain contexts, and be virtually suicidal in others.
ReplyDeleteNet content is archived indefinitely, possibly permanently, and depending on what shape the government takes in the future, well... I'm trying to avoid a stint in one of Halliburton's detention camps. That said, I personally adhere to the journalistic standards I've cultivated for a lifetime.
So glad to see Wintermute posting here, one of my favorite voices on the Internet.
ReplyDeleteThis blog does not provide for names of individuals who do not have a webpage or blog, so the only choice is to post as "anonymous." Therefore, I do not think it is an attempt to avoid be held responsible for one's ideas.
Finally, as Glenn invites criticism, I have a minor one, but will make it anyway. I think Glenn is one of the most articulate and forceful writers I have read in any blog, but since he is otherwise perfect in his grammar, I am going to point out the one mistake that he makes in almost every post of his, so he can, if he wants to correct that, become flawless!
Glenn, you frequently fail to match both sides of a verb. For instance you will write "Every individual is entitled to their opinion" instead of "his opinion."
I know most people make that same mistake, and I don't mean to be petty, but since you write so exquisitely otherwise, every time I see that mistake it's like a piece of chalk on a blackboard.
Just a thought....
Thanks for the great blog, Glenn!
Raven
ReplyDelete"Net content is archived indefinitely, possibly permanently, and depending on what shape the government takes in the future" -- who cares?
This government has "archived indefinitely" statutes that it ignores.
Why would anyone care what is in a blog.
A nation that ignores the laws, but is "really worried about what's in a blog"... get real.
As I've said: America sucks. [ Click ]
America: If you violate the laws of war or Constitution, you're a hero; if you blog about it, you are a criminal and subject to scrutiny forever. Woop! America is a screwed up place! You enjoy living in America, Sepis? Click
America's idea of a "debate" is to set a standard, then "debate" about ways of having those standards ignored, but applied to others. Get real! There's no use discussing issues with Americans when their "starting and ending positions" are at odds with the agreements they've already made.
Why would anyone want to discuss anything with Americans? Their idea of "debate" is to create excuses to get everyone to ignore all the other agreements, promises, statements, and "other things" that they've done to violate the laws.
Americans are unreliable counter parties. Do not trust them. Beware!
I know most people make that same mistake, and I don't mean to be petty, but since you write so exquisitely otherwise, every time I see that mistake it's like a piece of chalk on a blackboard.
ReplyDeleteI hate that mistake and am cringing that I do that, and not infrequently (I think one subconscious reason that mistake is made is because of the desire to avoid the whole "his/her" generic pronoun problem). If you see me making that mistake again, please do provide a little slap on the wrist with a ruler via a comment (or, better yet, an e-mail).
Thanks for pointing that out. That really is one thing I love about the blogosphere - no error remains undetected for long, and while it's not always fun to have every mistake brought to your attention, it's better than having them linger unnoticed and uncorrected.
The only blog that I read that does not have comments is Talking Points Memo - and Josh has basically a whole blog community at the TPM Cafe where there is feedback.
ReplyDeleteI think that without publicly viewed feedback, you lose what makes blogs so great.
Wow -- Glenn is so reasonable it might make the dimwit trolls' heads explode.
ReplyDeleteRe: grammar -- I think the incorrectness of statements like "every individual is entitled to their opinion" has become debatable -- it is perfectly understandable and provides an alternative to an otherwise necessarily-gendered word. And at least to me (I understand others disagree), it sounds fine.
Now as for that most prominent lawyer-grammar downfall, using "which" when the proper word is "that"...
I hate that mistake and am cringing that I do that, and not infrequently (I think one subconscious reason that mistake is made is because of the desire to avoid the whole "his/her" generic pronoun problem). If you see me making that mistake again, please do provide a little slap on the wrist with a ruler via a comment (or, better yet, an e-mail).
ReplyDeleteActually, tho, that "mistake" is passing into acceptable useage, precisely because of the his/her thingie. One reasonably smart (lawyer) author I know put that explanation in the forward to his book, and then proceeded to write accordingly throughout his book.
I do it myself for the same reason.
Glenn
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying your viewpoints re commenting.
I only visit right-wing blogs when they are linked to, so this critisizm is made with love-
Left-wing blogs-your comments are boring because you chase away so called "trolls" even when they make valid points. Take a page from Glenn's playbook and engage the ones who are sincerely trying to spark a conversation. It makes for a much livelier debate.
I've taken to scrolling through comments sections just to look for interesting links or entertaining riffs. All of the comments here are worthy of a read, and I thank you Glenn for being a democratic blogger and a wonderful writer.
Note to the anonymous commenter:
ReplyDeleteIf one would like to leave his/her name, it is entirely possible to just leave a name in the comment body.
And I would also like to praise, as others here have, the wonderful blog Glenn Greenwald has made! An evolution of great ideas is able to take place here with appropriate questions and objections.
Per Stoller and others; the right CAN'T have free comments or the whole thing turns into an open sewer faster than you can say 'jingo racist homophobe'.
ReplyDeleteGribbit dont be a tool- nameless political writing is older than the republic and has a long and important history- its one of the fruits of true liberty. Why must the message be connected to the messenger ? Let one stand apart from the other. And by the way, M. Malkin has both a dick and a pussy; I have that on good authority of an old line porn agent who took a pass on her act before blogging was invented.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, it didn't occur to me to email you about that grammar point, but yes, that's what I should have done. Anyway, you take criticism very graciously, like the gentleman you are.
ReplyDeleteAs for whether that usage is now grammatical, no, it's not. I don't believe in "living grammar". Proper grammar is proper grammar. Words or idioms may enter the language, but grammar must stay the same, like the Constitution! We all know what a pleasure it is to read the words of those who bother to write completely grammatically.
I agree that reluctance to use his/her is the reason for that usage, which bogged me down for a while also, until I realized that it is perfectly proper to just say "every individual is entitled to his opinion", and it silly to feel one is a sexist or exclusionary when one uses the generic "him." That is one disservice the feminist movement has done to the language!
It has been my experience, that those who comment without attaching their name or nickname, and a link to their own blog or website, do so purely to cause trouble.
ReplyDeleteGood going there, gribbit, lying about your own experience.
I hate that mistake
ReplyDeleteIt is NOT a mistake -- that's a fantasy on the part of ignorant pedant-wannabees. See, e.g., http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html
For the lazy, here are the opening paragraphs from the page cited above:
ReplyDeleteThese files contain a list of over 75 occurrences of the words "they"/"their"/"them"/"themselves" referring to a singular antecedent with indefinite or generic meaning in Jane Austen's writings (mainly in her six novels), as well as further examples of singular "their" etc. from the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and elsewhere. While your high-school English teacher may have told you not to use this construction, it actually dates back to at least the 14th century, and was used by the following authors (among others) in addition to Jane Austen: Geoffrey Chaucer, Edmund Spenser, William Shakespeare, the King James Bible, The Spectator, Jonathan Swift, Daniel Defoe, Frances Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, Henry Fielding, Maria Edgeworth, Percy Shelley, Lord Byron, William Makepeace Thackeray, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot [Mary Anne Evans], Charles Dickens, Mrs. Gaskell, Anthony Trollope, John Ruskin, Robert Louis Stevenson, Walt Whitman, George Bernard Shaw, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Rudyard Kipling, H. G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edith Wharton, W. H. Auden, Lord Dunsany, George Orwell, and C. S. Lewis.
Singular "their" etc., was an accepted part of the English language before the 18th-century grammarians started making arbitrary judgements as to what is "good English" and "bad English", based on a kind of pseudo-"logic" deduced from the Latin language, that has nothing whatever to do with English. (See the 1975 journal article by Anne Bodine in the bibliography.) And even after the old-line grammarians put it under their ban, this anathematized singular "their" construction never stopped being used by English-speakers, both orally and by serious literary writers. So it's time for anyone who still thinks that singular "their" is so-called "bad grammar" to get rid of their prejudices and pedantry!
I don't believe in "living grammar".
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter what you believe; you are simply wrong. Go read a book -- any book -- on lingusitics.
... or linguistics.
ReplyDeleteThat is one disservice the feminist movement has done to the language!
ReplyDeleteIt is not feminists who have done a disservice to the language, it is arrogant ignoramuses like yourself who make pronouncements about things they know nothing about. If you believe your own nonsense about grammar not changing, then you should go back to speaking in Old English:
In Old English, the masculine gender was used as the "unmarked" default for some purposes, but the problem of which pronouns to use with an indefinite singular antecedent (which can refer to both men and women) did not exist in quite the same way that it does in more recent English. This is because in Old English there was a system of arbitrary "grammatical gender", in which nouns were assigned a gender which was often independent of the biological sex (if any) of the noun's referent (as also happens in modern German, French etc.), and articles, demonstratives, and adjectives (as well as third person singular pronouns) all took on different forms according to the grammatical gender of the noun words they accompanied. It was apparently in early Middle English, with the transition to a system of "natural gender" (in which the third person singular pronouns are almost the only surviving linguistic markers of gender, and they are basically used in accordance with the biological sex of the referents of their antecedent nouns), that there arose the pronominal "generic masculine" construction as such -- in which it is only by a separate convention (somewhat isolated from regular rules of pronoun agreement) that masculine pronouns are used in sentences of the type "Everybody loves his own mother".
Wouldnt want to dissapoint you so...
ReplyDeleteI disagree! :)
I too was brought up short by realizing that Josh Marshall has no comments. However, he does frequently publish reader emails with a unique or insightful perspective. Maybe you'd call it ultra-moderation of comments. I suppose he does it to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high.
ReplyDeleteI've continued to learn so much from Glenn's blog, and have noticed there aren't many trolls that hang out here, trying to gum up the works. I wasn't sure before if this was because the comments were being monitored and I agree that it's important to consider other points of view although in some cases I can't understand the lack of understanding that certain people display. I scroll past all the juvenile attempts at humor, or talking point meme that occurs from time to time. I admit there have been a couple of instances where I've become frustrated as other's attempt to patiently explain their points to a troll who isn't going to change or learn from it because all they want to do is divert the attention away from what's most important. It's just part of the territory and I've learned to identify them and ignore them so my blood doesn't boil. Even better are those times when someone leaves a comment that is critical of Glenn's point of view, and someone else will point out previous posts explaining the main arguments, especially concerning the illegality of the NSA wiretaps. I am not a rabid Bush hater either, but I do know that our country is in trouble, and I come here to learn as much as I can about my rights nder the Constitution.
ReplyDelete