Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Latest Iraqi war casualty -- conservative belief in "personal responsibility"

To the list of conservative principles which are being tossed aside like yesterday’s trash in order to defend George Bush, let us add the ostensible virtue of “personal responsibility.” Remember those lectures we used to have to endure about how Americans are so coddled and selfish and lazy and don’t take “personal responsibility" for their actions and their failures? We were treated to stirring moral tributes like this:

Conservatives believe that traditional morality serves as the best protection against the ills that plague society. The government should encourage policies that promote morality and discourage immorality. Personal freedom demands personal responsibility, and liberty is no excuse for irresponsible behavior.

Sadly, self-proclaimed conservatives seem to have as little use these days for the virtue of "personal responsibility" as they do for their other discarded beliefs of the past -- such as distrust of the federal government, or their steadfast and loudly touted belief in the rule of law.

As pretty much everyone (including the Father of Modern Conservatism himself) now recognizes, the pet neoconservative project of invading and bombing Iraq in order to transform it into a pro-U.S. beacon of peace, stability and freedom is a wholesale disaster, an abject failure on virtually every level. The cost of our little adventure is incalculable and will be with us for a generation, at least – the destruction of American credibility; the indescribable weakening of our military which leaves us vulnerable to real threats and enemies; and the staggering cost in both money and lives. And in return for these incomparable harms, we have installed pro-Iranian Shiite theocrats in one of the Middle East’s most strategically important countries and have brought that region to the brink of full-scale sectarian war. A more destructive and complete disaster is hard to imagine.

For the last couple of years, the tactic of war proponents was to simply deny reality and pretend that the disaster in Iraq was just fiction, nothing more than the invention of an American-hating media. That little tactic isn’t working any longer. All but the hardest-core Bush loyalists have abandoned this war long ago. And anyone with eyes can see that our Iraqi project is a disaster – at best, it will achieve nothing in exchange for the incalculable costs our country has endured and will have to pay for a long time to come. At worst, it will ensure the opposite of our goals.

Finally forced to accept the reality of their failure, war proponents have only two choices left: (a) admit their error and accept personal responsibility for their horrendous lack of judgment and foresight, or (b) blame others for their failure while insisting, in the face of a tidal wave of evidence, that they were right all along. Guess which option these Shining Beacons of Personal Responsibility are embracing?

For the entire war, the Republicans controlled the White House and both houses of Congress. On virtually every matter relating to the war, the Congress deferred to the Bush Administration and “interfered” with nothing the Commander-in-Chief wanted. Bush followers have controlled every aspect of this war from start to finish. If they were looking for someone to blame for its failure, one would think they would look to those who controlled the war top to bottom, back and front. One would be wrong.

The finger-pointing began this weekend when Bill Kristol, unquestionably one of the most influential war proponents most responsible for our invasion, essentially acknowledged that his Iraqi project was failing by blaming the military for failing to fight the war hard enough. Just like the slightly modified Leninists that they are, neoconservatives are blaming the faulty and insufficiently loyal implementation of their theories for this failure while insisting that their theories remain pure and good (“Communism didn’t fail because it’s a wrong theory, but because it was poorly implemented by Stalin”).

In fairness to Kristol, he has been blaming Rumsfeld and the military for a couple of years now for the failure of the war. But that’s only because Kristol has long recognized that the war was failing, and got an early jump on his campaign to ensure that he is not stuck with the blame. The consequences which will be unleashed by a failed war effort in Iraq are astronomical. This war failure is killing George Bush’s presidency, and someone is going to be saddled with an extreme amount of blame and guilt over what has occurred.

What we see now are the rats on the sinking ship scrambling around desperately to point fingers in order to ensure that the blame and the consequences are heaped on someone – anyone – other than them. For Bill Kristol to go on national television and blame the Bush Administration and our country’s military for the failure of his war is an act that is as despicable as it is revealing of the true magnitude of the desperation of the war proponents.

And then we have those self-defenders who will sink a level lower than even the level to which Kristol descended by seeking to blame war opponents for the war’s failure. At least Kristol had the intellectual honesty and decency to try to shove the blame onto those who actually influenced the prosecution of the war (the Defense Department and the military). These "blame-the-war-opponent" types are actually trying to blame their own failures on people who control nothing and influenced nothing.

Unsurprisingly, a rather pure example of this cowardly refusal to accept responsibility for one’s mistakes has been offered up by the always self-justifying Bush apologist Jeff Goldstein, who shared this blame-shifting gem with us yesterday:

One of the important points made in this excerpt (the entire piece is available to subscribers only) is that a goodly portion of our success or failure in Iraq has ultimately to do with how we react in terms of either lending our support or leveling our criticisms against the campaign.

And this is (and has been) a crucial component of the war—one that many on the anti-war side are loathe to admit: that their constant naysaying, though it is well within their right to voice, has objectively hurt the war effort, particularly when the criticism incorporates carefully-crafted falsehoods many of the war’s critics know for a fact to be objectively untrue.

From my perspective, there comes a time when, having registered disagreement with the war, the war’s critics (and here I’m not talking about critics of individual strategical or tactical initiatives, but rather those who have been against the effort from the start) simply wait and—if things fail—rush to brag of their prescience and perspicuity. But in the meantime, actively working to undermine the effort by presenting our enemies with a rabidly partisan divided front (one of their chief aims, remember)—whether it be through suggestions that we are in Iraq “illegally”, or that the President “lied” to take us to war, or seemingly hoping, on a daily basis, that the whole thing devolve into a civil war—matters. And not just rhetorically.

One can bet the mortgage that we’ll be seeing a lot more of this over the next few months – between now and, say, oh, November or so. Those who insisted on this war, who started it, who prosecuted it, who controlled every single facet of its operation – they have no blame at all for the failure of this war. Nope. They were right all along about everything. It all would have worked had war critics just kept their mouths shut. The ones who are to blame are the ones who never believed in this war, who control no aspect of the government, who were unable to influence even a single aspect of the war, who were shunned, mocked and ridiculed, and who have been out of power since the war began. They are the ones to blame. They caused this war to fail.

The Chief Blame-Passer, the President who is blessed with Infallibility on the Big Issues, has already laid the groundwork for this blame-shifting by repeatedly reminding us of our obligation to engage in only what he deems “responsible debate” about the war, lest we embolden the enemy and undermine our war effort:

We face an added challenge in the months ahead: The campaign season will soon be upon us -- and that means our nation must carry on this war in an election year. There is a vigorous debate about the war in Iraq today, and we should not fear the debate. It's one of the great strengths of our democracy that we can discuss our differences openly and honestly -- even in times of war. Yet we must remember there is a difference between responsible and irresponsible debate -- and it's even more important to conduct this debate responsibly when American troops are risking their lives overseas. . . . .

When our soldiers hear politicians in Washington question the mission they are risking their lives to accomplish, it hurts their morale. In a time of war, we have a responsibility to show that whatever our political differences at home, our nation is united and determined to prevail.

Virtually every prediction the President and his followers made about this war has proven to be false, while virtually every prediction made by war opponents has proven to be true. The President and his followers controlled every part of this war with an iron fist, ignoring anything which their political opponents said and insisting on the right to exert full-scale, undiluted control over it. And now it has failed. And it’s everyone’s fault except theirs.

Claimed conservative belief in “Personal Responsibility”:

R.I.P. -- 1964-2006.

224 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:01 AM

    Very well said and dead accurate Glenn.

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  2. Anonymous11:04 AM

    They are petrified becaue this war can bring them down. They have no defense becaue they are attached to it at the hip. This war can destroy Republicans for a generation to come. This blame-the-Democrats stuff is going to be their strategy for sure. what else do they have?

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  3. Anonymous11:05 AM

    A sentence that begins with, "In fairness to Kristol," must propose a sound beating to be at all credible.

    What does it mean to lie to start a war? What does it mean to advocate a war without being sure about your facts? It's murderously irresponsible, no matter how widely you try to spread the blame. And each civilian and each combatant who was sucked into the meat grinder has left people behind who have a serious bone to pick with you.

    If you advocated war, you did so without knowing what you were talking about. Lives were destroyed as a consequence. There is no reason under the sun why your life shouldn't be destroyed as well. That's what responsiblity means when you advocate killing people.

    If you profited from the war, you joined the lowest species on the face of the earth. Your money drips blood. You, too, have some accounting to do.

    They all belong in jail. Their fortunes should be forfeit to make some small contribution to the job of repairing the damage they have done. They belong in jail because they broke the law, of course. But they belong in jail because they mounted an unprovoked attack. They belong in jail to protect them from those who would justifiably tear them limb from limb.

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  4. Anonymous11:07 AM

    Great post. As usual.

    But unless the Democrats can succeed in convincing people that Bush and Co. did in fact lie us into this mess of a war, there are people who are all too willing to believe that Democratic "nay-saying" has done more harm than the arrogance and ignorance and incompetence of Donald Rumsfeld.

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  5. They are petrified because this war can bring them down says ellsworth. Sure, but all the more that means they will not allow themselves to go down. They have used every criminal means available to them to get to this place; certainly they can't afford to be exposed to the consequences of their criminal acts. They will not surrender power because, having adopted criminality as a substitute for governing, they can't give up power without risk of suffering the consequences.

    I suppose we might get a nub of a country back with an amnesty ala Pinochet, but human rights successes in place like Chile must make even that look dangerous to the likes of Cheney.

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  6. Anonymous11:35 AM

    "Stabbed in the back" by enemies at home.

    Sounds vaguely familiar...

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  7. You hit the nail on the head again, Glenn. I have a brother in the military (not currently in Iraq, thankfully) who has leveled basically the same criticism against me that Bush levels against the entire pro-peace movement: that it's OK to be against the war as long as you keep quiet and never say so out loud. I have to wonder what facet of "our freedom" the military is defending when the Commander in Chief demands that we abrogate our responsibility to monitor our own government?

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  8. Our situation today is precisely what it was in Vietnam, with even some of the same players. Remember?

    As I'm too young to remember Vietnam, I often wonder at the horror many must feel at seeing the same mistakes repeated in Iraq.

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  9. the indescribable weakening of our military which leaves us vulnerable to real threats and enemies

    This weakening is two-fold. We are not just going to see, as in Viet Nam, a devastating decline in quality of the most important part of the military--senior non-coms and young commissioned officers--as they abandon military career. The neo-cons, by prosecuting this war, have shattered the perception of American invincibility. True to form, this was a myth they largely constructed, and now it's in tatters.

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  10. Anonymous12:03 PM

    And then we have those self-defenders who will sink a level lower than even the level to which Kristol descended by seeking to blame war opponents for the war’s failure.

    Kristol adopts an expedient leaf out of history, ca. 1918: "Germany was stabbed in the back...", etc. By the time Kristol and his colleagues deeper in center of the mainstream meme machine are finished, it'll be even more like Vietnam; what should have been a shining moment for the U.S.A. was stolen by the traitorous liberal 5th column, blah-blah, ad nauseam. How come Kristol and his fellows can't learn anything useful from history, such as how bitter is the fruit of romantic but misguided foreign adventurism?

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  11. Anonymous12:03 PM

    Well said. Linked this in a brief thought at Broken Dreams .

    In saving the world for others, hubris more typically is the unseen white man's burden.

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  12. Anonymous12:13 PM

    I've seen basically two different theories on what the neocons wanted and expected from the Iraq war:

    1. They really are born again Leninists who thought Vietnam was a good idea with bad execution and have been itching for a chance to prove it ever since. If that is the case this will not change their minds at all. They may change ideologies yet again and will simply bide their time waiting for another go.

    2. They figured all along that spreading freedom and democracy at the point of a gun was nonsense and the odds were that Iraq would disintegrate into bloody chaos, but it was the only way to make a real change so it had to be done. They may also have realized at least one presidency would go down in flames because of it, and Bush was the perfect fool for the job. It's also possible they thought there would be a 'honeymoon' period immediately after the invasion where American troops could be withdrawn before things fell apart. That certainly seems consistent with Rumsfield's plans. The hardest part to believe about this theory is that they would have been willing to sacrifice the military in the way that is happening now. Not that they care about lives, but it limits their ability to interfere elsewhere.

    I'm not really sure which, if either to believe. The rhetorical tactic of blaming the opposition worked well enough to become the conventional wisdom after Vietnam, so it was inevitable that would happen again either way.

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  13. Anonymous12:21 PM

    This is nothing new. The exact same thing happened in Viet Nam. The blame was shifted to those of us that fought the war while the politicians who actually made the decisions skated away blameless and free.

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  14. Anonymous12:22 PM

    Yowch! A chilling reminder of what to expect more of this election year. Well said Glenn!

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  15. The day the first "conservative" came up with the concept of a corporation was the day they decided to abandon personal responsibility. A corporation, by its structure, is about deflecting personal responsibility.

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  16. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Chimpy and gang have never been held responsible for anything in their life.

    All this craptrap about "personal responsibility" is just one of many code-words that the right uses to flame prejudices and racism.

    The key to the republican success was getting middle class and even lower socioeconomic folks(predominantly white) to blame every BELOW them on the socioeconoimic ladder.

    As if somehow if the poor people would just blah blah blah blah blah we could cut taxes and all get rich.

    Good points -- but remember, CHIMPY IS NOT OUR PROBLEM. Its the people BEHIND the chimperor. Cheney and rove are not in control either -- they were placed in this office to carry out an agenda.

    Talking about hypocracy and "character defects" of the people who are in office now overlooks the fact that the military-industrial complex and power-elite would just find some other fools to propel into office.

    Yes, chimpy is a petulant, ignorent, self-obsessed drunk/cokehead son of a man and family that has carried out the military-industrial complex's plans for generations. He is the perfect tool for the war-machine -- an "industry" with limitless profit potential.

    Read change will mean doing more than talking about the individuals that carry out the agenda.

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  17. Anonymous12:35 PM

    Dread Scot said...

    I've seen basically two different theories on what the neocons wanted and expected from the Iraq war:

    I disagree with both theories. My own theory is that they did it for three reasons.

    A. They really did want to spread democracy in the middle east.

    B. They wanted a friendly democracy in Iraq that would insure our supply of oil. Iraq sits on the second largest proven reserves in the world.

    C. Bush wanted revenge for the attempt that Saddam made on his daddy's life.

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  18. Anonymous12:44 PM

    This sort of thing comes up in sports discussions all the time. Fans of the allegedly superior team, the team that coulda, woulda, shoulda won the big game but lost anyway, insist their team is still superior, and certainly would have demonstrated it on the field if only it weren't for the bad calls, or key injuries, or rotten luck, or...

    Fans of the team that really did win the big game are armed with a one-word reply, devastating in its effectiveness and guaranteed to cause fits: "Scoreboard."

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  19. This is nothing new. The exact same thing happened in Viet Nam. The blame was shifted to those of us that fought the war while the politicians who actually made the decisions skated away blameless and free.

    Definitely true, but I think it's even more dishonest with Iraq.

    Even if one believes that the anti-war movement undermined the war effort in Vietnam, the "anti-war" effort for Iraq was not even a small fraction of that. There was virtually no marching in the street, or hostility towards troops, or accusations of war crimes, or meetings with Iraqi insurgency leaders or anything tumutluous. The contrary is true:

    Bush began the war with huge amounts of Americans lined up behind him from both parties - and support slowly drifted away as they saw that the war was based on false pretenses and was turning into a disaster. But even then, the opposition was incredibly tepid and Bush's party controlled everything. The notion that the "anti-war" movement for Iraq - to the extent there even was such a thing - had anywhere near the effect or influence of the movement that opposed the war in Vietnam is just a blatant falsehood.

    One of the absolute worst character flaws is an inability to admit error. It's unsurprising that Bush followers have that attribute in spades since their Leader is pretty much the Grand Poster Child of it.

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  20. Anonymous12:54 PM

    Go, Glen!

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  21. Anonymous12:57 PM

    Wow. Most insightful post yet.

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  22. Anonymous1:05 PM

    I am so tired of the crap meme that Goldstein is tossing out. Like you pointed out, the GOP controls the presidency and Congress as well as executive branch agencies. Vocal opposition is only vocal opposition. It impacts the prosocution of the war not at all. Sure not all of the press is fawining but it mostly was but to say that is why Iraq goatf**ked is silly beyond all the telling. All the opposition could do was talk and sometimes yell. Of course it was all ineffectual because we were just talking/yelling at the wall. Talk without the power to do anything (i.e. controlling government branches) is just talk.

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  23. Anonymous1:09 PM

    gotta love it -- chimpy is proclaiming that iraq must choose between "chaos and unity"

    Of course, the US and the "coalition of the willing" (LOL) chose chaos a long time ago when they started a war of aggression based on lies.

    So much for "personal responsibility!"

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  24. Anonymous1:09 PM

    ...boy, when somebody uses "objectively" twice so close together... I don't think they're being objective.

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  25. Anonymous1:10 PM

    gotta love it -- chimpy is proclaiming that iraq must choose between "chaos and unity"

    Of course, the US and the "coalition of the willing" (LOL) chose chaos a long time ago when they started a war of aggression based on lies.

    So much for "personal responsibility!"

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  26. Anonymous1:12 PM

    Incisive, cogent - in spades.

    It should have been obvious to a blind man in 2002 that Bush WANTED A WAR AND WASN'T GOING TO BE CONTENT WITH ANYTHING LESS.

    The planning was under way from January 21, 2001 and September 11, 2002 was the icing on the cake.

    And the supporters and fellow travelers went along for the ride.

    Well, the wheels are well and truly off the bus now.

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  27. Anonymous1:13 PM

    oops - September 11, 2001

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  28. Anonymous1:18 PM

    Well put Glenn, and your response (that responsibility for this lies with the administration, the neocons and their allies in congress) is quite important. But I think its also important to note that Jeff Goldstein's arguments rest on unsupported contentions and unprovable conjectures. For instance:

    "their constant naysaying [...] has objectively hurt the war effort, particularly when the criticism incorporates carefully-crafted falsehoods many of the war’s critics know for a fact to be objectively untrue"

    Interesting how Goldstein doesn't present even one example of these "objectively untrue" and "carefully-crafted falsehoods" that those of us against the war have apparently been throwing around. The insinuation is that the anti-war movement has been acting in bad faith in its efforts to influence public opinion - that we don't/didn't oppose the war because it is/was such a bad idea, but because we want bad things to happen to America.

    The response that I have used for the last three plus years is the "drunk driving" analogy. If a friend of yours is about to drive drunk, isn't the sensible thing to do, if you care about that friend, to try to stop them from driving drunk because its such a bad idea? You don't simply stand there holding your tongue because you think that somehow by saying something some bad could happen, the likelihood of that bad thing happening increases. And the response of the Bush apologists is just as senseless as if your drunk driving friend would turn to you and say "why do you hate me?" when you try to take their keys.

    It is also interesting (and ridiculous) how Goldstein claims that criticism has "objectively hurt the war effort". Yet he presents no objective evidence. Goldstein attempts to support this claim by stating that the anti-war movement is "actively working to undermine the effort by presenting our enemies with a rabidly partisan divided front".

    Such thinking is sadly common. I highly doubt that any of the various insurgent factions in Iraq are motivated or even slightly encouraged by what is being said about the war here in the US. I think they have their own motivations and strategies that exist independently of whatever the domestic discourse might be, that even if 100% of the population agreed all along with everything Bush was doing in Iraq, these factions would still be blowing people up, taking hostages, and assassinating political leaders.

    The contention that saying something bad might happen makes that bad thing more likely to happen is idiotic, so abstract that it is entirely removed from a world of empirical facts, bordering on mysticism.

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  29. Anonymous1:19 PM

    The supporters of the Iraq war (including the president) have often challenged opponents with the question: "Would it be better if Saddam Hussein were still in power"?

    The problem with this, of course, is the tightly confined scope of the question (as if everything else would be the same except that now Sadam would still be in power).

    Can you imagine a different world where the US after the removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan had pursued the following course of action instead starting the Iraq invasion?

    1. Continue to pursue OBL with a vengeance.

    2. Use the goodwill and sympathy that the world still granted the US to organize and pursue a world-wide effort towards the elimination of nucluer weapons by states not already possessing them as well as a world-wide effort to secure all unsecured nuclear material.

    3. Use the US military to force Saddam Hussein to allow the UN to continue country-wide inspections for WMD as he did right before we invaded [my point is that we had Saddam right where we wanted him just before the invasion. Actually pulling the trigger on the invasion was a tragic mistake]

    If we had followed a course of action such as this:

    1. How many US lives would have been saved?

    2. How many hundreds of billion of dollars of US taxpayer money could have been spent inside the US rather than outside of it (or not at all)

    3. Would N. Korea and Iran not be where they are now (wrt to developing nuclear weapons) if we had an aligned world-wide effort against them?

    4. Would the US still enjoy the respect and admiration of much of the world?

    5. Would our own self-image as a country be healthier?

    The tragedy is that this isn't hindsight. This point of view was held by many before the war. We just never held a national debate to discuss other possible courses of action. We let the president bully us into an ill-conceived war that (as Glenn points out) many opponents predicted would go wrong in exactly the way it did.

    Devoman

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  30. Only 23 percent backed Mr. Bush’s position that they should stay as long as necessary. In contrast, 72 percent said that U.S. troops should be pulled out within one year. Of those, 29 percent said they should withdraw “immediately.”

    Today’s Zoby poll of the troops also indicate that they are souring on the war too, with a majority wanting to bring an end to it in a year. Yet, we are still spending millions on building permanent bases there, and Powerline and Fox are yammering about going after the WMDs in Syria now, in addition to bombing Iran. Reality doesn’t affect them.

    This happened in Vietnam as well, the troops came home and told people that there was no light at the end of the tunnel, and the public finally turned against it. It didn’t take nearly as long in Iraq, mostly because of our experience in Vietnam and the DĂ©jĂ  vu effect. We’ve been there, done that.

    I’ve talked to a couple of soldiers just back from Iraq, and they both totally changed their plans to make the military a career, and blamed Bush policies for destroying the military itself. They wanted out as soon as their tours were over.

    Yes, the “liberal media” and anti-war opponents will be blamed for this failure, that’s to be expected. That was Bush’s view on Vietnam too, we lost only because of the media and anti-war activists. They never will concede these points on either Vietnam or Iraq.

    And they won’t even concede the polls either – those are biased too. If only if everybody watched Fox News, all would be right with the world. Well, their world, anyway.

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  31. Anonymous1:23 PM

    Oh, and add to my list:

    6. Wouldn't the US military be much stronger and be able to project power more forcefully?

    7. Wouldn't our security as a nation really be much stronger (particularly if we had spent some of the billions wasted blowing up and then reconstructing Iraq on things like port security, etc.)?

    - Devoman

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  32. Anonymous1:28 PM

    Hey no gedalia or bart here today posting moronic chimpy talking points that are tangent to the conversion!

    Hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

    I think the guy was right "downstairs", at least one is a paid shill....

    Do you think they are "regrouping" cuz of the 34% approval rating, perhaps meeting to plan their next round of "talking points", or do you think they have been assigned to disrupt other blogs today?

    Either way, nice dialog today. I wish people would not engage those 2 -- we all know they are full of crap and no one benefits from the child-level discussions that so easily refute their nonsense.

    THANKS EVERYONE, IN ADVANCE, FOR TO PLAYING WITH THE TROLLS!

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  33. Anonymous1:30 PM

    I think the adverb "objectively" does tend to get tossed out when there's objectively no objective evidence for the proposition. It may even become a synoynm with "subjectively," given time.

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  34. Anonymous1:40 PM

    I'm not entirely shameless about blogwhoring, but a few days ago I made a comment here that included a link to a post on my (pretty inactive lately) more moderate blog, The NeoProgressive -- and the hit counter over there (which normally registers, oh, ten visitors a day) boomed, with people leaving comments that they had found it very useful. Since this new post of Glenn's is on the topic of Iraq, too, I'm reposting the link, and hope it's helpful.

    It's a list of links to key news stories, essays, even a photoessay, explaining in general terms how we were misled into the war, why it's going badly, THAT it's going badly, what it's costing us, etc.

    My intention is that people can give the link to conservatives who are starting to second-guess the war and need more background information than they can get from the MSM to be convinced. None of it's shrill, they can read it at leisure, and hopefully it's persuasive, or at least demonstrates that we liberals (you know, like Glenn, Howard Dean, and William F. Buckley) aren't merely stupid, cowardly, unthinking or unpatriotic. Use if it it's helpful.

    The Mishandling of Iraq

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  35. Anonymous1:42 PM

    Dittohead "conservatives" (i.e., Republicans) lost sight of the "personal responsibility" half of the equation a long time ago.

    They want environmental protections rescinded so they can cash in, but have no interest in self-policing. They want financial protections rescinded so that more Enrons can rob their shareholders. They don't want seat belt laws or smoking bans, but they want the rest of us to pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility in higher insurance premiums and health care costs. Their energy policy (and now their economic policy) is "keep everything cheap and let our grandkids deal with it."

    It's the ultimate dine-and-dash. Grab all you want and die (or be Raptured!) before the tab shows up.

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  36. Anonymous1:44 PM

    In "Downfall," the German movie about Hitler's bunker during the fall of Berlin, the chief Nazis start blaming the German people as a whole for the loss of WWII. "They supported us, so it's their fault."

    When will the Bushies start doing that?

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  37. Anonymous1:50 PM

    German citizens were rightly saddled with the collective guilt of the Holocaust. What will America's collective guilt be when the final tally is calculated on the travesty of Iraq. Just because 66% of Americans disapprove of Bush, doesn't absolve the American people of the responsibility of the actions this administrations has purportedly done on our behalf. As a Jew, I find it very troubling that a populace - while claiming to disapprove of its leaders' performance - is doing nothing to the end the misery that is being dispensed around world by OUR elected leaders. WTF!

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  38. Anonymous1:53 PM

    Glenn, you are quite possibly the angriest person on the planet, this side of Hamsher. Serious criticisms are incredibly necessary but unfortunately there is precisely nothing useful in your piece, unless driving traffic is the goal. I feel sorry for the your readers, who are made more angry but less informed by your work.

    Seriously, show me one sentence you've written here or previous which displays a goal of understanding or improving anything in the actual country of Iraq? Any mention of Kurds or Talabani or Sistani? Of any actual Iraqi at all? Such a humanist.

    The simple fact is, you don't care about the actual country of Iraq. It's an abstraction for you.

    It's not that you necessarily want bad things in Iraq. Frankly I have no idea what you would like to see in Iraq because you only talk about Americans.

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  39. Anonymous1:53 PM

    Weird thing about the American Military, innit?

    The most technologically advanced, best equipped, best trained, well-supplied military in history.A volunteer army of enthusiastic professionals, well aware of their long proud heritage and possessed of supreme esprit de corps, they are the pride of the American general staff, and the envy of other nations.

    BUT

    criticize their mission even a tiny bit--even from the powerless sidelines--and they fold like a house of cards, and lose a war that, by any objective standard, should have been an easy win.

    Strange, strange, strange.

    Or at least that's the picture these chickenhawk rat bastards present of the current military.

    It's sure to be appreciated by vast numbers of Americans.

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  40. Anonymous1:54 PM

    gotta love it -- chimpy is proclaiming that iraq must choose between "chaos and unity"

    That brings up another potential target for blame-shifting: It's was all the Iraqis' fault! Those poor muslims weren't ready for democracy after all. Oh well, at least we tried.

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  41. I think it's important to "lead from the front" on this personal responsibility issue instead of planning to be reactive. Unfortunately the so-called "liberal" media/journalists don't do that in regard to laying out the discourse on this (and every other thing during the BushCo admin) and letting the lies speak for themselves. I have a few friends who work for MSM outlets and I inundate them with links whenever I find cogent arguments that speak my mind (LOL). I'll definitely be adding this to the email blizzard.

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  42. Anonymous2:01 PM

    Your posts are the most insightful and intelligent I have read. I am forwarding this one on to my friends so we can be prepared to respond to the despicable lies they will spew. Thank you Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous2:01 PM

    Latest Iraqi war casualty -- conservative belief in "personal responsibility"

    I disagree. I think it was the first casualty of the war (possibly the 2nd or 3rd when they realized it wasn't going to be a "cakewalk")

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  44. Seriously, show me one sentence you've written here or previous which displays a goal of understanding or improving anything in the actual country of Iraq?

    Yeah Glenn, really, how dare you not solve the enormous problem BushCo has created! Why I know the wingnuts are just lining up to enlist and go to Iraq and fix it up real good, where is your committment?

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  45. Anonymous2:03 PM

    Latest Iraqi war casualty -- conservative belief in "personal responsibility"

    I disagree. I think it was the first casualty of the war.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous2:04 PM

    gahh. sorry for the double mucked up post.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous2:05 PM

    Those poor muslims weren't ready for democracy after all. Oh well, at least we tried.

    Some commenter over at Eschaton said it strikingly: we've raped Iraq, they want us to just leave now, but we're refusing to stop until we give them an orgasm. As if that'll make it all OK.

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  48. their constant naysaying, though it is well within their right to voice, has objectively hurt the war effort,

    Will somebody tell me WTF is up with the ninnycons shoehorning "objectively" into every one of their idiot pronouncements these days? Do they think it gives them some kind of extra credibility?

    "Oh, that sounded silly at first until I saw he used the word 'objectively'!"

    Jesus.

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  49. Anonymous2:14 PM

    Glen,

    Great post. Another great "conservative" virtue, closely related to personal responsibility, that has become a casualty of this administration, is "accountability".

    The only heads that have rolled in the face of one egregious error after another in the prosecution of this war were those of the dissenters and the scape goats: Shinsecki, Powell, Karpinski,....

    With Bush, competence, judgement and performance all take a back seat to loyalty.

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  50. Will somebody tell me WTF is up with the ninnycons shoehorning "objectively" into every one of their idiot pronouncements these days? Do they think it gives them some kind of extra credibility?

    So funny - I actually had a sentence in the post about this extremely ridiculous habit of pro-Bush bloggers describing their highly debatable opinions with the word "objectively" to bestow it with some sort of totally unwarranted aura of empirical truth.

    I took the sentence out just because I didn't want it to distract from the point I wanted to make, but it is such an inane practice that really has become all the rage over there (the worst thing one can be now is "objectively pro-terrorist"). Once you become aware of this little linguistic tick, you will see it everywhere, as they all parrott each other even down to the misplaced words they use.

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  51. (b) blame others for their failure

    On his radio show yesterday, Hannity pointed the finger at the Dems because, according to him, for 4 and a half years they were being obstuctionists about the war.

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  52. The way to approach this blame-the-liberals thing is just to laugh at it -- there is no other reasonable response. You must simply say that Iraq was a bad idea -- like Vietnam, the Iraq war was NEVER going to be successful, no matter how well or poorly it was prosecuted, which is why the anti-war liberals were against it in the first place. The thing to avoid now is the temptation to take revenge by flattening Iraq and bombing them back to the stone age, in retaliation for failure.

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  53. Anonymous2:26 PM

    "they [the US military] fold like a house of cards, and lose a war that, by any objective standard, should have been an easy win."

    this is not fair or accurate, neither is your bluster building the US Military as the greatest military of all time. Fact is, it is the best military that $450 billion/year can buy TO FIGHT CONVENTIONAL NATION AGAINST NATION WARFARE. Problem with that is that because the US Military is obseenly the best in that venue, no one would ever challenge it in that manner (i.e., we continue to pour billions down the MIC rat hole for no purpose other than politician bluster and false American arrogance). Instead what is presented is a challenge of asymetrical warfare, which, because it does not translate into big bucks for defense contractors the US military is
    near useless to fight.

    So the US military is not folding in a war it should of won; it is doing exactly what intelligent people predicted in 2002 - not doing well in a guerilla warfare engagement it is not prepared to fight.
    .

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  54. Glenn,

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always understood that the protests against the war were in fact MORE pervasive than the ones regarding Vietnam, especially at the beginning.

    My friends and I were part of antiwar protests in New York and Austin before the war even began--Nobody was protesting against US invasions of Vietnam in 1962.

    Also, weren't there widespread protests against the invasion of Iraq around the world in many countries, again before the war even began?

    Jeff

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  55. Anonymous2:30 PM

    Enablers in all parties.

    The first time I heard Junior on the stump for the nomination spewing his moral prattle-tudes, I took it to be a coded message about the end of conservative "personal resonsibility".

    I mistakenly limited his target to the wingnuts. I certainly left out the majority of House and Senate, who have also embraced this.

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  56. Anonymous2:31 PM

    Ok, so it's settled, then....The war in Iraq was an unmitigated disaster from the beginning, we (the U.S.) have unquestionably and unambiguausly lost the war, Iraq is now and for the foreseeable future will be a quagmire from which NOT ONE THING good will emerge, and the U.S. should be ashamed and its President prosecuted for war crimes, and you're supremely confident that history will record this as the nadir of American influence / power.

    That's quite the worldview you folks have there...Kind of a "Fear and Loathing in Every Aspect of Our Lives" tilt that forsees nothing but bad times ahead and which displays a remarkable talent for "ignore the positive, accentuate the negative".

    But you're "Progressive"...

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  57. Anonymous2:32 PM

    So the 2006 midterm elections become paramount: if -- and that's an enormous if -- the Democrats could actually take back the congress, there might be the possiblility of making BushCo culpable for their actions. Impeachment followed by prosecution followed by prison. I can dream can't I? Yet I find myself exhausted and nearly immune to DNC appeals for money. I gave a couple of grand in 2004. I don't see myself doing that this time around unless the Democrats start fighting and stop running around like scared old women.

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  58. Anonymous2:35 PM

    Yeah Glenn, why be so angry all the time?

    Sure, a broken, immesurably corrupt leadership remains in power, unaccountable and unshamed by their actions due to a compliant press, millions of bootlicking dead-enders and a floatilla of obtuse morons, and, sure, they've screwed America and our interests for at least a generation, weakening our country to a dangerous level, but what about the Kurds?

    What's to be angry with? Everything's coming up roses!

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  59. Glenn:

    I am proud to proclaim my support for the liberation of Iraq. I am also more than happy to take credit for:

    1) Removing the mass murderer Saddam Hussein from power and bringing him to justice.

    2) Eliminating the Baathist police state which murdered over 300,000 Iraqis, tortured and maimed hundreds of thousands more, and ethnically cleansed Kurds and Shia from their homes.

    3) Stopping the UN sanctions which Saddam was using as an excuse to kill a further 10,000 Iraqis each year through starvation and lack of medical care.

    4) Stopping the UN Oil for Food Program which Saddam was looting to pay off his allies in Europe and the UN as well as to rebuild his military.

    5) Eliminating the Iraqi WMD programs which the UN completely missed and Messrs. Kay and Duelfer admitted were ongoing and set to restart at full production as soon as the UN got tired of killing Iraqis with its sanctions. These programs included ongoing biological and nuclear research which the recently released tapes of Saddam's staff meetings in 1995 and 2000 discuss.

    6) Eliminating the safe haven Iraq provided for al Qaeda and similarly aligned terror groups. Recently translated Iraqi intelligence documents reveal that Saddam started inviting in Jihadis in 1993, met with a member of Zawahiri's terror group (which later merged with al Qaeda) immediately after that group attacked the WTC in 1993 and trained approximately 8,000 terrorists in the four years leading up to the liberation. The book Masters of Chaos describing the SF operations over the past decade provides a chapter on Operation Viking Hammer. This is the operation where the SF and the Kurd Peshmerga attacked and captured the largest al Qaeda camp in Iraq near the Iranian border. When they took the camp, they found travel papers for al Qaeda who had fled our liberation of Afghanistan to find sanctuary in Iraq, a chemical laboratory with precursor chemicals, protective suits, nerve gas antidote and arabic chemical warfare manuals. The al Qaeda captured at the camp identified their Iraqi intelligence coordinator by name.

    7) Help the Iraqis create the first constitutional representative democracy in the Arab world with three successful national elections. If you didn't feel a surge of pride in our troops when all the Iraqis, including the Sunni, turned the last election into a street party to celebrate their freedom then something is dead within you.

    I would be arrogant to take credit for the yeoman work the Iraqis have performed to make their democracy work in a country with three different and often hostile groups. By any historical standard they have done a fantastic job.

    Perhaps the biggest challenge to their democracy is when al Qaeda desecrated the Shia mosque in an attempt to start a civil war in Iraq. For a day, it looked like they may have succeeded. However, the Iraqi leaders would have none of this civil war. Shia and Sunni joined hands to pray and march together in opposition to civil war and continued terror. The rioting stopped in one day.

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless.

    9) While this nonstop defeatist drumbeat in the press and on blogs like this has taken its toll on American support for the war effort, the people in Iraq have repeatedly told pollsters that they do not want to go back to Saddam's murderous police state, despite the Baathist and al Qaeda terror which followed.

    To oppose the liberation is to support reinstating Saddam, the police state, the mass graves, the torture chambers, the WMD programs, the terrorist sanctuaries, the 10,000 Iraqis dying each year from sanctions and to condemn the surviving Iraqis to slavery and fear.

    I can sleep at night just fine taking responsibility for my position. Can you honestly say the same after you consider the alternative?

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  60. Dittohead "conservatives" (i.e., Republicans) lost sight of the "personal responsibility" half of the equation a long time ago.

    Actually the American "conservative" movement (at least post-Goldwater) was never really about "personal responsibility" or "the rule of law" or anything like that from the get-go: that was all empty rhetoric.

    The key sign of this was not the Iraq war, but the emphasis on "tort reform". Now frivolous lawsuits are a problem (and many of them are launched by corporations -- e.g. the suit against Fogerty alleging he plagerized himself! -- whom a strict constructionist / original intent freak ought to say have no standing in federal courts, given the opinion of certain key framers about corporations), but that isn't what tort reform is about, now is it. Tort reform is about making sure people (and corporations which are supposed to be legal fictional people) don't have to pay for their mistakes.

    That is about avoiding responsibility ... not about taking responsibility. It is about reducing the rule of law ... not enforcing the rule of law.

    Indeed, even the social conservative stand about moral legislation enforcing a certain standard which would naturally lead us to social cohesion rather than depending on secular law to do so, is rather one of avoiding personal responsibility for moral choices as well as having a society of laws.

    It has been for a long time that conservatives have taken the position ascribed to Roper in "A Man for All Seasons" and liberals the position of More. It is just obvious now where conservative rhetoric kinda obscured it in the past.

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  61. Anonymous2:43 PM

    I agree completely with your far above average articulation .. in fact I've said it similarly often,(as often as possible considering debate has been muted by dittoheads in the enabling echo chamber) who arent interested in reality or fact but more interested in how they can now become microcosms locally of the corruption craft Washington politics turned into the minute this administration lied bought and cheated their way into the Whitehouse. One thing that does come to mind is there never was virtue of any stripe regarding lying murdering thieves and their facilitators, least of all honor.

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  62. Anonymous2:44 PM

    Gris Lobo, you left out the most important reason:

    They thought it would be easy.

    They thought as soon as we rolled into Bagdhad, Iraq would turn into a pro-American democracy overnight with no further effort on our part.

    And when it turned out not to be so easy, there was no Plan B.

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  63. Anonymous2:46 PM

    It's pretty clear that by this point in the war you're either with us in the reality-based community, or you are with the error-ists.

    IAEA reports, and Ingersoll-Rand subcontractor activity showed that the entire region of power plants in North Central Africa(not just in Niger) were operating, at best, at 20% of their potential peak capacity.

    As Ambassador Wilson and larry Johnson noted, you could have googled the information up and found the lie out for what it was.

    Where were those intrepid Staffers in Congress on both of the aisle?

    The Nuremberg Precedent will be soon be prosecuted. Blair and Bush will lead the way.

    In fact a war crimes trial(believe it is civil) is being heard now within the EU community rtegarding Bosnia-Serbia-Kosovo.

    Blair is shitting himself with the anticipation of it setting a precedent.

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  64. Glenn, one of the most frustrating and depressing things I've gotten out of my opposition to this war is the reaction to, "we were lied into war."

    Somehow that became OK in the minds of many war supporters and it occurred very early on in this process. I have the feeling it was a part of the propaganda to sell the war in the first place. That there was just as much effort to sell mushroom clouds and anthrax etc. as to sell that it was OK that we're being lied to get us into the war.

    Many reactions to, "we were lied into war." Was a yawn like 'so what'. Or, worse one of the most common reactions would be something like, "we needed to show those people in the middle east that we were willing to fight, that's the only thing that works in that part of the world." or even much worse, the Tom Friedman, "we did it because we could."

    We need, I guess as an education effort, to make it known that lying the country into war is the MOST unlawful/criminal action that can be committed in our society.

    The costs are already too high...

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  65. Anonymous2:49 PM

    In fairness to Kristol, he has been blaming Rumsfeld and the military for a couple of years now for the failure of the war. But that’s only because Kristol has long recognized that the war was failing, and got an early jump on his campaign to ensure that he is not stuck with the blame.

    In other words, "in fairness to Kristol" . . . he was a lying, blame-shifting worm [paraphrase]." That hardly seems fair. And it's unfounded. Maybe he was just being honest? His criticism -- which we all seem to agree was correct -- was stated VERY early on. You can see that here, here and here. And perhaps he was critical even earlier. I put those links together after just five minutes of Googling.

    Perhaps the best criticism of Kristol is that he had too much faith in the Administration's ability to execute the war. If one advocates welfare reform based on the theory that it will decrease poverty in the long term, and such reform is carried out by an Administration but in sloppy and counterproductive way and therefore fails to decrease poverty, I don't think it is fair to conclude that welfare reform is a bad idea. Fukuyama wrote that the neocons became too confident in the effectiveness of military force due to the successful unraveling of the USSR. I would add to that list of one our success in the Balkans and Afghanistan as well.

    And, one other somewhat unrelated point that's worth contemplating. Everyone points the finger at Kristol and the neocons for leading us to war in Iraq. Nobody seems to talk about the Christian evangelicals. They are a lot closer to Bush (he's one of them), and they are firm believers in the democracy prescription for the Middle East and ending global tyranny generally. This article, if you can stomach the religiousity, was revealing.

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  66. >A. They really did want to spread democracy in the middle east.

    Like democratic Kuwait, which we spent blood and treasure liberating from Iraq in 1990? How's that one turning out? Or how about, more topically, the UAE?

    "Friendly democracy" is an oxymoron. The citizens of countries sitting on top of large quantities of resources that the US wants to get its hands on will ALWAYS have different ideas about the terms of that acquisition, and that will almost always make that country "unfriendly," to the propagandists who frame the news in the US.

    Chomsky got it essentially right long ago: the US is all in favor of formal "democracy"--elections, purple thumbs, etc.-- purely for propaganda purposes, but given a choice between a pliant autocrat and a nationalist democracy, we'll overthrow the latter in a heartbeat (see Chile, Iran, Haiti, Guatemala, etc.)

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  67. Anonymous2:57 PM

    I agree that "blame the Iraqis" will be the strategy if things don't turn out successfully in Iraq. Blaming "liberals" for their failures will backfire miserably since the majority of the country are "liberal" in their opinion of Iraq. But I don't want to discourage them from trying.

    What may prove more effective for Republicans is the continued lowering of the bar for success. No matter what happens they are going to declare this war a success. We must be ready for that.

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  68. Anonymous3:05 PM

    And, one other somewhat unrelated point that's worth contemplating. Everyone points the finger at Kristol and the neocons for leading us to war in Iraq. Nobody seems to talk about the Christian evangelicals. They are a lot closer to Bush (he's one of them), and they are firm believers in the democracy prescription for the Middle East and ending global tyranny generally. This article, if you can stomach the religiousity, was revealing.

    Here is a great example of what Glenn was just describing. This is undoubtedly from some neocon (jewish perhaps?) trying to stick the blame on Christian evangelicals for this failed war.

    Neocons are shaking in their little boots that the Bushies and America as a whole are going to turn on them and blame them (rightfully) for everything. So they're trying to desperately blame anyone else - Christians, the military, Rumsfeld, the Left, for the failure of THEIR WAR.

    Oh yeah, Christian evangelics were way more important in the war - like Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Kristol, Krauthammer, Elliot Abrhams - the list of evangelicalss who caused this war just goes on and on.

    We all know who the culprits are. They're the ones trying to blame everyone else, like the fucking little cowardly rats that they are. The time for paying the piper will be soon enough, and I, for one, can't wait.

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  69. I've always been curious as to what the mechanism is supposed to be by which dissent from the war policy is supposed to cause the policy to fail. It seems to depend on the magical power of incantation. Just by saying this is a bad idea, it appears, we conjure up reality.

    It is indeed an awesome power that we possess.

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  70. Anonymous3:13 PM

    To Iraq war apologists,

    Where was your outrage when Sadam gassed and tortured his people in the 80's? This is a war of choice. They chose to go there after someone else attacked us. You cannot bring democracy to people at the end of a gun barrel. And If you choose to do so you had better plan and listen to your generals about how best to do that. Oops, didn't do that either.

    And I dont have to support this war because we are not at War. Flightsuit declared Mission Accomplished and the end of major combat operations a long time ago.

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  71. Anonymous3:19 PM

    This is undoubtedly from some neocon (jewish perhaps?) trying to stick the blame on Christian evangelicals for this failed war . . . We all know who the culprits are. They're the ones trying to blame everyone else, like the fucking little cowardly rats that they are. The time for paying the piper will be soon enough, and I, for one, can't wait.

    Have some issues there, Warren?

    I wasn't "trying to blame everyone else," so much as suggest a confluence of historical and political forces that led to war. It's an angle that doesn't get much play. The New Yorker article mentioned it and provided a good description of evangelical beliefs and the influence Gerson had on Bush. I thought it was interesting. But, I duly apologize for disturbing your ever so tranquil equilibrium.

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  72. Anonymous3:21 PM

    "To oppose the liberation is to support reinstating Saddam, the police state, the mass graves, the torture chambers, the WMD programs"


    Err.. Bart. Didn't you mean "WMD Program Related Activities"?

    I mean, just to be accurate and all.

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  73. Anonymous3:29 PM

    I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless.

    In other words, in your opinion you are qualified and authorized to decide who lives and dies and whether or not they would have been better off had you not sent someone to kill them.

    Just because you say the words "I take responsibility" doesn't mean you've taken any responsibility.

    In your mind, it's all Saddam's fault for making you bomb his countrymen in the first place.

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  74. "I can sleep at night just fine taking responsibility for my position. Can you honestly say the same after you consider the alternative?

    I hear that a lobotomy is a great sleep-aid...

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  75. Anonymous3:32 PM

    Some commenter over at Eschaton said it strikingly: we've raped Iraq, they want us to just leave now, but we're refusing to stop until we give them an orgasm. As if that'll make it all OK.

    An analogy worthy of the great Rude Pundit!

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  76. Thank you Glenn for yet another reasoned and well-documented essay on the intellectually bankrupt and morally dishonest administration (and bleating heads) regarding the war.

    The same people who blame the poor for not taking personal responsibility for their plight will, as you said, shift blame for failure elsewhere. The next logical target is the Iraqi people -- that they are "too savage" to handle democracy as laid out by Dear Leader. Bets on who will be the first to launch that specific trial balloon?

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  77. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Ok, so it's settled, then....The war in Iraq was an unmitigated disaster from the beginning, we (the U.S.) have unquestionably and unambiguausly lost the war, Iraq is now and for the foreseeable future will be a quagmire from which NOT ONE THING good will emerge, and the U.S. should be ashamed and its President prosecuted for war crimes, and you're supremely confident that history will record this as the nadir of American influence / power.

    That's quite the worldview you folks have there...Kind of a "Fear and Loathing in Every Aspect of Our Lives" tilt that forsees nothing but bad times ahead and which displays a remarkable talent for "ignore the positive, accentuate the negative".

    But you're "Progressive"...

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  78. Anonymous3:53 PM

    It's the gays fault. Especially those unpatriotic enough to allow themselves to be kicked out of the military by revealing their sexual orientation.

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  79. Anonymous3:54 PM

    Has anyone here read People of the Lie by Scott Peck? If not read at least the first three chapters and tell me if our current crop of "conservatives" are not just such people. This blame shifting is much worse than just disgusting it is a true indicator of fundamental evil. Those that are not willing to be introspective, self-actualize and assume culpability when warranted are indeed people of the lie.

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  80. Anonymous3:55 PM

    Hey genius (MattS, I'm guessing),

    How does being "Progressive" mean that we should just roll over and sing about bluebirds? Our country is being run into the ground — and we're supposed to, what now, happily take it?

    Hell, go beyond the miserable failure of this war, our torture policy, our illegal spying on American citizens, our loss of prestige abroad, the total failure of the administration to once level with us on anything (only to try and sneak a sweetheart port deal by us). Go beyond all of that "War on Terror" hue and cry.

    Where have the Bushies suceeded on any level? An American city has all but been wiped off the map and they fiddled on the guitar in San Diego. The Medicare bill that literally funnels taxpayer money to Pharmecutical companies is a mess. Tax cuts have increased our risk of catastrophic fiscal meltdown once the Chinese and Saudis stop investing in the dollar. No Child Left Behind is a massive, onorous joke that's an unfunded federal mandate. Dafur is still burning.

    Shit, they were one vote away in one of the worst Supreme Court decision in U.S. history (one so bad even it's supporters on the court don't want it to be a prescedent) from losing both the popular vote and the election, so it's difficult to give them credit with electoral success too.

    But we "progressives" are supposed to grinning idiots so you don't feel so threatened by your President's utter and complete failure to govern?

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  81. Excellent and well-documented, as usual.

    For a similar argument made six months ago, there's this.

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  82. Anonymous4:10 PM

    This is precisely the same meme that hardcore Vietnam war supporters have carried around with them all this time: we would hve won Vietnam but for the protestors and the failure of the government to sell the war.

    The Bush administration's most ardent supporters are all about revenge for the 60s, revenge for the protests, revenge for progressive victories since that time. They are not going anywhere. They will continue in roles like the Swift Boat Liars as they cultivate their hatred for everything that is good and right about America.

    Bedwetting cowards, these conservatives. They wont take responsibility for anything.

    -Bane of Bush

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  83. Anonymous4:10 PM

    "Personal responsibility" is conservative for "I stick my neck out for nobody." - Rick Blaine

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  84. Anonymous4:28 PM

    This is the 6th time I have tried to post this remark....

    Do you think gedalina and have been instructed to take more direct action, perhaps on the server?

    Interesting that I have not seen the regular trolls that post the same inane, off-topic "talking points" to prevent us from having a meaningful dialog about the heart of glenn's original posts.

    Do ya think NSA has their hands full monitoring communications from the vast majority of americans that do not approve of the chimperor, his economic, domestic, and foreign policies?

    They didn't steal 2 elections and lie this country into a war of conquest based on lies because they cared what the public thought or what the US constitution states.

    Its that pre-1776 mentality...

    US plans to 'fight the net' revealed

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm

    A newly declassified document gives a fascinating glimpse into the US military's plans for "information operations" - from psychological operations, to attacks on hostile computer networks.

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  85. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Glenn said:

    "Even if one believes that the anti-war movement undermined the war effort in Vietnam, the "anti-war" effort for Iraq was not even a small fraction of that. There was virtually no marching in the street"

    I must respectfully disagree.
    The marches against the Iraq war were unprecedented

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  86. Anonymous4:40 PM

    Era of Responsibility declared by candidate George W. Bush on 22 October 2000 lasted up until the that moment in 2002 when information about the 6 August 2001 Presidential Daily Brief leaked out

    uuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Era of personal responsibility ended when SCOTUS declared that you cannot determine who wins an election by counting the votes.

    I know some say, "let it go," but I don't see how we can. This administration used hook-and-crook to get into office, played 9/11 to start taking away the fundamental rights this country claims to stand for, launched a criminal war of agression using 9/11 as an excuse, has committed treason, war-crimes, and crimes against humanity ever since....

    They had no intention of "playing by the rules" when the stole 2 elections.

    The point is -- great crimes require even bigger crimes to maintain the lies, let the thievery continue, and avoid being held "presonally responsible"

    They gave up the "responsibility" card with the coup-detat in 2000

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  87. I can sleep at night just fine taking responsibility for my position. Can you honestly say the same after you consider the alternative?

    I suppose a lobotomy would be a great sleep-aid

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  88. Anonymous4:50 PM

    Yes, the Iraq War is bad for America. But don't lose sight of the fact that the Iraq War is first and foremost a huge tragedy for Iraq. Iraqis are paying by far the greatest price for George W. Bush's war, not us. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, maimed, paralyzed and blinded, and those who haven't live in a nightmare of no security, little electricity, little clean water, little sewerage service with no end in sight to the daily grind of death and despair. I agree with what you said, but we elected the people who committed this huge folly and tragedy in Iraq, and then we re-elected them in 2004. The United States should pay compensation for every death and maiming, and for the destruction of the Iraqi society and infrastructure. We should pay and pay and pay for it until we go even deeper into debt far into the future.

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  89. Anonymous4:57 PM

    When a conservative says "personal responsibility" that's code for poor people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

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  90. Anonymous5:01 PM

    Glenn, I enjoy your writing, and you have a real talent for destroying the lies we are fed by a minority cabal that continues to lead this country, despite continuing majority disapproval.

    and it's this distinction between minority/majority that's bugging me.

    there is certainly a real value to destroying the lies fed by the minority, but then shouldn't the majority take the stage with ITS OWN AGENDA and issues? put another way, there is some harm in giving more airtime to the lies. it is a tacit agreement to fight on their turf. your posts fight fire with fire, which is good, but at some point, someone needs to throw some water - like talking about Dem/majority initiatives, some exhibits of our superiority, and a reason to vote for Dems.

    examples:

    Democratic resolution in the House to remove troops from Iraq (H.J. Res. 73)

    Democratic resolution in the House for public funding of elections, to cut out the corruption created by the lobbying racket (HR 4694)

    Democratic proposal for Medicare for all (HR 4683

    Add to these the various proposals circulating, at the state and national levels, to free the US from oil dependency and we have ourselves a real platform, a real reason to get on the progressive bus - not just because the other guys are such a bunch of lying fuckers.

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  91. Anonymous5:18 PM

    For those interested in reading

    The neoconservative moment
    by Francis Fukuyama

    Here is a link to a free full version
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_76/ai_n6127311/print

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  92. Anonymous5:26 PM

    Another great post from the Internet's best host.

    A Zogby survey coming out today, the first of U.S. troops in Iraq, reveals that 72% of our troops want the U.S. to get out of Iraq within a year. 23% want it to withdraw immediately.

    When soldiers lose heart in a war, its objectives, and the prospect for victory, keeping them there is immoral. It becomes tantamount to a draft where people are forced to unwillingly kill others , but not for a cause in which they believe.

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  93. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Wow, great post with a lot of righteous anger at the blood and torture on Republican hands here. But hey, speaking of the death of personal responsibility, there's something I don't notice here on a quick scan: I seem to remember 42% of the Democratic congressmen at the time voting for the war as well (29 Dem Senators, 81 Dem Representatives, out of 256 total Dem Congressmen -- a 59% majority of Dem Senators!)

    Bush and the Republicans have a lot of blood on their hands, but there's plenty of blood on Democratic hands too. And now that that vote is a matter of historical record, when you get into the voting booth in your state and pull the lever for a Lieberman or a Feinstein, you get Iraqi blood on your hands too.

    Either these Congressmen (the Liebermans, the Feinsteins) need to fall on their swords and quit, or else we have to vote them out -- presumably by voting for third parties. EVEN if that means the Republicans win a bigger majority. Or else absolutely nothing is EVER going to change. These people get themselves elected by making Republican policies look good.

    And if you think that the Republicans couldn't possibly make electoral gains by pushing both the "They-Voted-For-It" and "They-Hindered-It" lines simultaneously, then I'm sorry but you have been asleep for five years or more.

    There are a lot of pretty sharp predictions here about how Karl Rove and the Republicans will try to turn the Iraq war issue against "liberals" in the 2006 elections. But I have a prediction right here: The Democratic voters will convince themselves -- as this post is already, tacitly, doing -- that the Feinsteins and the Liebermans "didn't really mean it" and "they had no choice" and "they have a vision for national security, but Bush betrayed them and botched the whole thing." And those Democrats will stay in office.

    And, based on that prediction, I further predict that 1-2 years from now, we will be having a spirited discussion on this blog about all the dumb tactical mistakes Bush made when he bombed Iran.

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  94. Great post. You get the sense that the vocab is shifting fast as history begins to rear its ugly head.

    Pseudo-trackback:
    It may now become fashionable, at least in the political blogosphere, to shrug and point out the inevitability of civil war in Iraq, and indeed to portray it as a cathartic and necessary process. And the facts to support this view will exist.

    But any optimism concerning the ultimate fruits of civil war (the rejection of violence and tyranny) fits along a trend of explanatory backfilling each time the empty promises, false predictions, and manichaean rhetoric of the administration fold under the weight of political realities in Iraq.

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  95. Anonymous5:41 PM

    But hey, speaking of the death of personal responsibility, there's something I don't notice here on a quick scan: I seem to remember 42% of the Democratic congressmen at the time voting for the war as well (29 Dem Senators, 81 Dem Representatives, out of 256 total Dem Congressmen -- a 59% majority of Dem Senators!)

    Ayup. It pains me to no end, but I'm almost to the point of believing that most of those Dems need to go down as well.

    Here's yet more evidence from Josh Marshall.

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  96. Anonymous5:42 PM

    "The Mess" is a good recounting of the failures and who is to blame for them. I recommend it:

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18771

    And, frankly, I think the Republicans are in free-fall, despite their memes and lies
    Bush is at 34% approval in the latest CBS poll; Cheney at 18%. Combined with Zogby's poll on the troops--72% think we should pull the troops out--the memes are coming from the American people, not Rove.

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  97. Anonymous5:44 PM

    "Der doschtoss" approaches.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchstosslegende

    I think we need to settle upon a comeback here. I'm going with, "so you're saying the problem isn't that this was a bad idea incompetently executed? The problem is that someone pointed out that it was a bad idea incompetently executed? So, by this logic, if we hadn't said anything about the levees, New Orleans wouldn't have flooded?"

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  98. Anonymous5:48 PM

    This is precisely the same meme that hardcore Vietnam war supporters have carried around with them all this time: we would hve won Vietnam but for the protestors and the failure of the government to sell the war. Bedwetting cowards, these conservatives. They wont take responsibility for anything.

    Right. Conservatives are the cowards, even though conservatives are the ones who are fighting this war. Project much?

    Regarding Vietnam, who's fault is the following:

    * 1 million plus boat people fled South Vietnam
    * About 250,000 South Vietnamese were put into “re-education camps”
    * About half of them died there
    * 2 million Cambodians (30% of the population) were murdered
    * Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos have spent the last 30 years under brutal dictatorships

    I think it's time those of you in the "reality" based community took responsibility for your own actions. And the above WILL happen in Iraq if we pull out.

    The left is utterly unserious.

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  99. Anonymous5:53 PM

    Claimed conservative belief in “Personal Responsibility”:

    R.I.P. -- 1964-2006.


    Conservatives never believed in "personal responsibility" for anyone but poor people. It was just a code word to say that the poor weren't responsible enough to deserve anything like government assistance, and if you have money, it proves you're responsible enough to have it.

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  100. Anonymous5:54 PM

    Right. Conservatives are the cowards, even though conservatives are the ones who are fighting this war. Project much?

    Interesting. And here I thought that our troops were the ones fighting this war. Is there some ideological test for military service that I don't know about?

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  101. mds said...

    Help the Iraqis create the first constitutional representative democracy in the Arab world with three successful national elections.

    Whoa, maybe you can add a few more qualifiers to that, since you still haven't ruled out Lebanon [and Iran].


    When did the people of those countries approve a constitution under which a government was elected in a free multiparty election?

    Of course, letting freedom reign [sic] also means supporting the military dictator who overthrew the democratically elected government of Pakistan, providing support to Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan, letting al-Qaddafi off the hook, boycotting the democratically-elected government of Palestine, providing cover for Mubarak's sham election, and handing lucrative port contracts over to slave-trading absolute dictators in Dubai. So forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical about this newfound love for establishing democracy in the Middle East.

    You are dodging the point.

    With your opposition to the liberation of Iraq, you were without a doubt condemning Iraqis to continued dictatorship.

    And you would have also missed out on the collateral strengthening of the democracy movements in the Middle East.

    The people who led the recent Cedar revolution in Lebanon which threw out the Syrian occupiers and restored true democracy to the country.

    The recent elections in some of the Gulf States and Egypt are a start and will make people hungry for more.

    Pointing to the remaining dictatorships in the area only reinforces the need to keep pushing self determination and freedom in the region.

    It does not provide you with an excuse for failing to act in Iraq.

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  102. Anonymous6:06 PM

    How's this for "personal responsibility" and chimpy's War on "Terra:

    QAEDA CLAIM: WE 'INFILTRATED' UAE GOV'T

    February 25, 2006 -- WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda warned the government of the United Arab Emirates more than three years ago that it "infiltrated" key government agencies, according to a disturbing document released by the U.S. military.
    The warning was contained in a June 2002 message to UAE rulers, in which the terror network demanded the release of an unknown number of "mujahedeen detainees," who it said had been arrested during a government crackdown in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

    The explosive document is certain to become ammunition for critics of the controversial UAE port...


    http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/64126.htm

    To read more, use bugmenot.com login

    Username boominator@gmail.com
    Password boomboom


    Is the port deal really "blackmail" and who is responsible for this?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous6:09 PM

    It's the gays fault. Especially those unpatriotic enough to allow themselves to be kicked out of the military by revealing their sexual orientation.

    Damn - well that's the last time I drive a ford....

    according to americablog, its only the bung-holers and "man-on-dog" crowd that drives those things anyhow...

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  104. Anonymous6:10 PM

    Let me get this straight: Because I, my wife (an Alabama girl who's also a chemistry professor and a mainstream Presbyterian), and my seven-year old daughter (who was five at the time) went to an anti-war rally in early 2003, and because I've written a few letters to the local paper (which may have threatened my career), the war in Iraq is failing? The people at that rally that day probably had less influence over the White House and/or the Pentagon than a pigeon flying over it on any day of the week. Blaming the failure of Iraq on protestors and supposed naysayers is the stupidest thing I've heard since Bode Miller excused his poor performance in Torino. Piss on 'em all.

    ReplyDelete
  105. prunes said...

    I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless.

    In other words, in your opinion you are qualified and authorized to decide who lives and dies and whether or not they would have been better off had you not sent someone to kill them.


    As a free citizen who elect the representatives who decide whether to go to war, yes, I have that right. So do you.

    Just because you say the words "I take responsibility" doesn't mean you've taken any responsibility.

    You are right.

    I took direct responsibility for the fighting the wars my country chose to wage when I served in the Army as an infantry platoon leader in the 1st Armored Division in the Persian Gulf War.

    I will never forget the absolute joy of the Iraqis in by Basra we liberated for a couple months after the ceasefire.

    I will also never forget the wounded we treated who fled the Republican Guard massacres north of the ceasefire line.

    There was one pregnant woman who was gang raped before the soldiers decided it would be a hoot to give her an abortion with an AK47 round to the womb. This is the kind of mind numbing barbarity that was Saddam's Iraq.

    However, what still gets to me was the look of absolute horror and terror on the faces of the Iraqis when we told the little town where we were stationed that we were leaving. The people ran after our Bradleys trying to jump on to get away.

    It was one of the most personally satisfying event of my life to see us finish what we started in 1991, leaving Saddam behind a dock at a war crimes trial and the Iraqi people joyfully waving purple fingers after having voted.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous6:13 PM

    When a conservative says "personal responsibility" that's code for poor people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

    Actually, it is a coded reference to African Ameicans and it means "SCREW YOU -- YOU ALL VOTE DEMOCRAT ANYHOW!"

    The biggest lie in this country is that somehow the poor are "holding back" everyone else that wants to be a gazillionaire...

    When will people wake up -- its not the rest of the crowd that keeps you out of "exclusive clubs," its the members of the club itself!

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous6:41 PM

    Mr. Greenwald is to be commended for stating in his recent discussion of acceptable comment here: “Virtually every comment section here contains commenters arguing why my post is wrong ... I'm glad that's the case and hope it stays that way. I think that knowing that your views will be subject to disagreement makes one more diligent about advancing only meritorious and intellectually honest views.” In that spirit, I note the recent post by Mr. Greenwald concerning the prescience of Mr. Howard Dean:
    “Can anyone dispute that Dean was right about virtually every prediction and claim he made, every warning that he issued about why invading Iraq was ill-advised and counter-productive?”
    and the post by Jon Henke on the QandO Magazine directly responding to that question: “ I'm not sure that Greenwald is looking for contrary data, but I'll try to accept the challenge by citing a post I wrote last year in response to a similar column by John Judis:...”
    So if you, like I, found the post on the prescience of Mr. Dean of interest you might want to check out the above links for further elucidation on the subject.

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  108. Anonymous6:44 PM

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless.

    Uh, take responsibility how Mr. Bart? What exactly was your sacrifice?

    "War is never cheap" - that brings tears to my eyes, really.

    Who did you lose?

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  109. Anonymous6:51 PM

    Where to begin? First, your post is excellent and thoughtful, as ever. As to your follow up on the Vietnam comparison, I certainly agree that the intensity of protest was vastly different (nothing like the draft to focus the mind); however, I would submit that the degree of culpability of our leaders was also much lower then. Certainly Johnson and Kennedy and the rest of the gang were wrong about dominoes and so forth, but at least their misjudgments were understandable given their post WWII experience. With this current crowd, it really is hard to imagine what they were thinking. Did they make it all up out of whole cloth just for the fun of it? While I realize that it may be reckless to suggest that they are all sociopaths, the question does arise....

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:52 PM

    As someone who did observe the Vietnamese conflict with more than passing interest (Saigon fell on my 16th birthday), I have to disagree on one point: Vietnam was not about money. Iraq most certainly was.

    My own belief is that with businessmen totally in control of the political process, they honestly believed that if they got Saddam out of the way, everything would be roses. Why? Because to a businessman's view of the world, conflict is a bad thing. It gets in the way of making money. The concept that there are other priorities in anybody's life other than making money is as incomprehensible to them as differential topology.

    That's why they are *still* in denial. They CANNOT wrap their heads around the idea that money may just not be everyone's primary motivation.

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  111. Anonymous7:00 PM

    And thus we come full circle and Iraq is Vietnam. Same song, second verse, and to be reenacted in about thirty years by the same players.

    I don't know Goldstein, but I would bet my husband's purple heart and the hummer my son is riding around in in Iraq today, that he has never served in the military.

    During Vietnam, as today, the loudest proponents of war are consistently those who a) avoided service (to include joining the National Guard in the case of Vietnam) or b) had "other obligations". There is no more dangerous animal than a chickenhawk. To paraphrase an old saying: When a country lies down with that dog, you can bet it will get up with fleas.

    ReplyDelete
  112. So if you, like I, found the post on the prescience of Mr. Dean of interest you might want to check out the above links for further elucidation on the subject.

    Thanks Notherbob2. Jon wrote a good post. I left a comment there.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous said...

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless.

    Uh, take responsibility how Mr. Bart? What exactly was your sacrifice?


    Hero, I served in combat during the first Gulf War and my brother is over there now.

    The only ones here who can talk to me and my family as peers about the sacrifice of war are fellow combat veterans and their families.

    Given incredible level of invective and slander thrown around here at our armed forces and their accomplishments in Iraq, I would guess that fellow vets are about as rare here as the proverbial hens teeth...

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous7:19 PM

    Given the new polls that are out showing a full 70% of reservists think the U.S. should get out of Iraq within a year (of which 29% want to leave immediately) I fully expect Coulter et. al. to condemn our troops as traitors. How dare our troops suggest we're losing the war in Iraq, when our troops are on the ground fighting the war in Iraq? Think of what this will do to their morale, when they see their survey responses published in the liberal media!

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous7:22 PM

    Given incredible level of invective and slander thrown around here at our armed forces and their accomplishments in Iraq,

    Could you give an example of this "invective and slander"?

    The only invective and slander I've heard in awhile against the military from anyone prominent was Bill Kristol blaming the military for not fighting his war hard enough and causing the whole thing to fail.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Hhere's someone with an interesting twist on the "Don't blame me" game.

    He's blaming Bush Sr.!

    http://vodkapundit.com/#008647

    ReplyDelete
  117. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Rasmus said...

    Given incredible level of invective and slander thrown around here at our armed forces and their accomplishments in Iraq,

    Could you give an example of this "invective and slander"?


    Sure...

    Every time someone here claims that the United States has indiscriminately slaughtered Iraqi civilians, they are accusing the troops of being war criminals. The Nuremburg defense of just blaming Buhs doesn't fly. If the war to free Iraq is a war crime, then the troops are war criminals.

    Next, when people post that the United States has accomplished nothing in Iraq, then you are really saying that the troops have accomplished nothing with all their incredible hard work. This is a demonstrably false accusation and is therefore a slander.

    The only invective and slander I've heard in awhile against the military from anyone prominent was Bill Kristol blaming the military for not fighting his war hard enough and causing the whole thing to fail.

    Kristol said no such thing. He and the Weekly Standard have been calling for Washington to send more troops and use more force to battle the insurgency for months.

    In any case, Kristol is flat wrong.

    The most successful counterinsurgency effort in Iraq to date was the work recently performed by our 3d ACR from Colorado which took Tal Afar near the Syrian border, routed out the al Qeada gangsters who were terrorizing the city with Taliban like rule and then turned over security to the local Iraqis with help from the national Iraqi Army.

    Tal Afar is now one of the most peaceful areas in the country, even though it is smack in the middle of the wild west of the Al Anbar province.

    The mayor sent a letter to our local Colorado Springs Gazette profusely thanking the 3d ACR and thanking their families for the sacrifices of their soldiers. Of course, you will never hear this in the NYT or WP.

    The key has always been to train up the Iraqi military and let them handle the fighting. It took our conventional army until 2004 to realize this after our troops did a great deal of the fighting without much effect. Since then, most of the country has been turned over to the Iraqi military and we are shifting more to training.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous7:54 PM

    I've been apolitical since the day Reagan left office. As politicians go, I liked Reagan a lot, liked the bulk of his programs, and trusted him. Aside from a few isolated incidents, I never felt he betrayed that trust.

    Trust in the President is an interesting issue. It's not possible to be neutral. In our personal lives, business lives, and in every facet of our interaction with others, we decide early on whether or not we trust someone. Usually we give someone the benefit of the doubt upon initial contact, and look to subsequent actions on the part of that person to determine whether or not the early trust was warranted.

    Since there has not been another high ranking political figure since Reagan that I trusted, I retreated to the position that I think characterizes how a lot of people conduct their daily lives.

    I decided to spare myself all the blah blah propaganda, to not waste time reading about it, and I focused on living my life. I didn't listen to TV news, nor did I read the editorials of newspapers. Why bother, I thought? They're all lying, and I am powerless to do anything about it.

    Three or four months ago I discovered the blogosphere. As days passed, I found I was waking up thirsty every morning. It was my mind that was thirsty, and only reading up on the raging debate that was going on for the "heart and minds" of American citizens could quench that thirst.

    I developed a routine. I check out Glenn's site first, then go to thersite's site, then check the headlines on Drudge to see if there are any stories that I should find out more about, then Huffington Post, to check the headlines. If there were a conservative or Republican blog that didn't make me angry, not a good way to start the day, I would visit that too, but I haven't found one yet.

    Four months have passed since I started focusing on what was going on in America, and I find myself one of the angriest people in the country. I am in a state of perpetual shock at the evil which has taken over this country, the corruption of the system, the abandonment of the rule of law and the way it has become accepted that the people who speak on television, the politicians, their apologists, and the media don't even have to make a pretense of telling the truth.

    I want to address a thought that a poster on this thread expressed. It was something to the effect that since most rational people who look at all the facts can agree that the war in Iraq was an immoral venture from the beginning, a war we were lied into by a network of politicans and industrialists pursuing evil, secret, unpatriotic agendas, there should be retribution and those responsible should be held accountable, tried and put in jail.

    Having been apolitical for so long, and thus having a somewhat unsophisticated view of things, I am wondering why that is sufficient.

    Forgetting about every other of the hundreds or thousands of injustices which were done by those in power and those behind them as they brought this country to the brink of fascism, the one thing that I can't stop thinking about is the tens of thousands of lives that were carelessly, wantonly, heartlessly and criminally gambled away in pursuit of the neocon "war games" theory of globalization

    Someone is going to have to explain to me why people who are serial murderers are not subject to the death penalty.

    If people really care about The Rule of Law, and believe that no man is above the law, then why aren't those in power bound by the same laws the rest of us are?

    If a citizen murdered one thousand people, he would get the death penalty.

    I think it's a perversion of justice that just because someone is in government, he gets a pass for being a mass murderer.

    Do I think every administration who enters a misguided war which cost lives should be punished?

    No.

    The difference here is that if an administration truly believes that a war is in the vital interest of America, even if they are wrong in that assessment, they should make a truthful disclosure to the public, stating why they believe war is necessary, and then proceed.

    When they lie about the reasons for entering, they are deceiving others into becoming complicit in murder.

    If a bankrobber walked into a bank, shot to death 200 people, then used as a defense that he did so because he thought they were terrorists, he'd be subject to the death penalty.

    Why isn't Bush?

    Why isn't Colin Powell?

    Why isn't Condi Rice?

    Why isn't Cheney?

    Why isn't Karl Rove?

    Why isn't Rumsfeld?

    They, among others, were the ones who all knew it was a lie. It's possible many of the people outside government who supported the war did not know.

    But they did.

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  120. Anonymous8:05 PM

    "The only ones here who can talk to me and my family as peers about the sacrifice of war are fellow combat veterans and their families."

    Your chickenhawk overlords assert this argument is irrelevant, bart. You didn't get the memo? I certainly support our troops, I say bring them home now.

    "Every time someone here claims that the United States has indiscriminately slaughtered Iraqi civilians, they are accusing the troops of being war criminals. The Nuremburg defense of just blaming Buhs doesn't fly. If the war to free Iraq is a war crime, then the troops are war criminals."

    Hmm, who was on trial at Nuremberg? Your average Nazi grunt? So your last sentence is, as is so much of your rantage, completely false.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:06 PM

    Uh, bart?

    A new poll to be released today shows that U.S. soldiers overwhelmingly want out of Iraq — and soon.

    The poll is the first of U.S. troops currently serving in Iraq, according to John Zogby, the pollster. Conducted by Zogby International and LeMoyne College, it asked 944 service members, “How long should U.S. troops stay in Iraq?”

    Only 23 percent backed Mr. Bush’s position that they should stay as long as necessary. In contrast, 72 percent said that U.S. troops should be pulled out within one year. Of those, 29 percent said they should withdraw “immediately.”

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  122. Anonymous8:06 PM

    I've only been reading this blog for a couple of weeks, but this is the best and most trenchant comment I've seen on BushCo's complete responsibility for this calamitous mess and the wisest prediction of how they will seek to evade responsibility for something they insisted on controlling totally from the very start. Decent people cannot permit this to happen. Bush and his party must be held accountable -- Bush and Cheney by impeachment and then criminal prosecution; the Republican Party by being forced to go the way of the Whigs. Enough is enough.

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  123. Anonymous8:06 PM

    The only ones here who can talk to me and my family as peers about the sacrifice of war are fellow combat veterans and their families.

    Not that I too much what you may think of me, but your apologies smell more like self-validation than a genuine concern for Iraqis' lives.

    What really, really bothers me is the huge loss of civilian life in Iraq, and how utterly unconcerned Republicans seem to be. It's all about their plans for Iraqis, their worldview, them, them them!

    And meanwhile, our bombing strategy was to sacrifice up to 30 civilian lives to try and get just one Baathist target.

    That just ain't right.

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  124. Anonymous8:12 PM

    Thanks for a blog that is articulate and not just mindless Bush hate. But the fact still exists that it is so easy to take cheap shots. Most folks screaming about the "failings" of the war cannot come up with alternatives that would have worked. They especially cannot come up with workable ideas about Iran or N Korea or much else as far as that goes. Endless complaining and name calling is childish and worthless.
    Reminds me of a Teddy Roosevelt quote.... “It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

    President Theodore Roosevelt
    “Citizenship in a Republic,”
    Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous said...

    I certainly support our troops, I say bring them home now.


    You do not support the troops by forcing them to retreat from a fight which is not finished and thereby lose the war in which they fought.

    Quite the opposite.

    Retreat and defeat renders all of their sacrifices of blood and sweat to be in vain and gives victory to their and our enemies.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous8:18 PM

    "Most folks screaming about the "failings" of the war cannot come up with alternatives that would have worked. "

    You mean like NOT fixing the facts around the desired result to enter into an expensive war while cutting taxes on the uber wealthy?

    You mean, hold our cards and continue with the much cheaper inspections and wait for a REAL threat to arise? Like NK or Iran?

    Yeah, that would've been my advice.

    ReplyDelete
  127. nobody said...

    Uh, bart?

    A new poll to be released today shows that U.S. soldiers overwhelmingly want out of Iraq — and soon.


    There were no surprises in that poll.

    The press has been reporting on and off since the beginning of 2005 that the Coalition already had plans in place to draw down a good portion of the troops during 2006 after the elections. The Pentagon already announced that two brigades are staying home instead of rotating back to Iraq to replace other units coming home. There will be far more of those announcements in the coming months.

    The GIs are already clued into this.

    When I was deployed to Saudi during the Persian Gulf War, they told us we would be there for at least a year. However, we learned that we would get home after about 6 months through the grapevine long before they announced it officially.

    My brother is a C130 pilot and one of his rotations into Iraq this year was scrapped and there are rumors that his unit will not be redeployed there at all this year.

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  128. Anonymous8:24 PM

    What I don't get is how these supposed ex-military dudes tout all this "evidence" of WMDs that just doesn't exist. Don't blame the MSM. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to run front page coverage of whatever new evidence the administration trotted out. Yet from the Administration? Silence. Please don't go posting links from discredited sources like Sada, when Colin Powell expresses doubt publicly about their existence.

    Fact of the matter is; there are much more brutal regimes active in the world right now, and the right wing crowd has yet to offer any convincing argument as to why Iraq (which was actually the target of UN inspections) was a better choice than others.
    These people seem to have never heard of PNAC and their stated objective of spreading American Hegemony over the region thru destabilization. I know that's an old subject, but the right wing has never acknowleded it as (one of the)the real reasons we went to war.

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  129. Anonymous8:24 PM

    Bart:

    I had no idea I was in the presence of such a blood-and-guts war hero. I'm honored sir.

    Not to question your patriotism or anything, but didn't virtually everyone came back from the first Iraq war? What was it, like 600,000 soldiers in the field and 345 died? How much risk did you take there Chesty? You act like you stormed Omaha beach.

    And now exactly is your taking credit for your brother's service as an example of "personal" responsibility?

    Can I have his address? I'd like to send him a letter telling him about his heroic brother rooting him on from his La-Z-Boy recliner.

    You're a hoot!

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  130. prunes said...

    What really, really bothers me is the huge loss of civilian life in Iraq, and how utterly unconcerned Republicans seem to be.


    Under the sanctions regime, 10,000 Iraqi civilians a year were dying because Saddam was using the sanctions as an excuse to deny people food and medicine and redirect it to rebuilding his military and regime.

    That does not count the hundreds of thousands slaughtered after the Persian Gulf War to reestablish his dictatorship.

    During this war, most reliable estimates are the about 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died.

    Probably a few thousand died caught in the crossfire of American forces. That amount of French died in a few hours when we carpet bombed St Lo to break out of Normandy.

    However, most of the civilian deaths have occurred over the past year or so in al Qaeda's suicide mass murder campaign butchering men, women and children at mosques, markets, job lines and even at funerals.

    Your soldiers are in the field fighting the scum doing the killing. Colorado's 3d ACR lost 39 troopers over the past year routing these animals out of Tal Afar.

    Every time they poll the Iraqis and ask them whether all the blood and carnage was worth it to be free of Saddam, nearly everyone but the Baathists say yes.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous said...

    What I don't get is how these supposed ex-military dudes tout all this "evidence" of WMDs that just doesn't exist.

    Don't blame the MSM. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to run front page coverage of whatever new evidence the administration trotted out.


    LMAO!

    The MSM media make it a point to spike stories which do not fit their template that Iraq destroyed its WMD and had nothing to do with terrorists.

    For example, have you heard of the translated tapes of Saddam's staff meetings in 1995 and 2000 where they are discussing how they lied to the UN about destroying WMD, how they had ongoing Bio and Nuclear weapon programs and how they moved nuclear material out of the country?

    If you watched a single episode of Nightline, then you got the part of the translation concerning lying to the UN. Otherwise, there was a nearly complete blackout of news on the tapes and no translations.

    You had to go to the alternate media and blogosphere to even know about these tapes.

    http://www.intelligencesummit.org/

    If you get your information from the MSM, you definitely have not heard about the translated Iraqi intelligence documents which detail Saddam's coordination with the Islamic terrorist movement starting in 1993 when he met with one of the representatives of the Zawahiri Egyptian terror group which just attacked the WTC and later merged with al Qeada.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5267

    You also haven't heard about the Iraqi intel docs on which DIA is sitting that 8 sources have confirmed to the Weekly Standard describe Saddam's training 8000 terrorists in the last four years before the liberation.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

    You can go on and on...

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous said...

    Bart:

    I had no idea I was in the presence of such a blood-and-guts war hero. I'm honored sir.


    I never claimed to be a hero. I did my job like hundreds of thousands of other soldiers.

    Not to question your patriotism or anything, but didn't virtually everyone came back from the first Iraq war? What was it, like 600,000 soldiers in the field and 345 died? How much risk did you take there Chesty? You act like you stormed Omaha beach.

    My unit had three major fire fights with a RG division around small rise in the Kuwaiti desert they have nicknamed Medina Ridge.

    We took machine gun, artillery and tank fire. The artillery fire ripped up my wing Bradley pretty bad, but thankfully no one was killed.

    As an aside, artillery doesn't explode in a geyser of fire like you see in the movies. There are geysers or dirt and shrapnel. When I first saw it coming down around the platoon, I was sitting out of the turret trying to direct my platoon's fire in a sand storm. I looked at the geysers of dirt like a dumbass for a few seconds before I realized that it was incoming artillery and I scooted back down into the turrent.

    And now exactly is your taking credit for your brother's service as an example of "personal" responsibility?

    Having family in the line of fire is a sacrifice. Just ask all the gold star families. My mother is not a happy camper. This is her second son being sent to war...

    Can I have his address? I'd like to send him a letter telling him about his heroic brother rooting him on from his La-Z-Boy recliner. You're a hoot!

    Do the letters F O have any meaning to you?

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous8:58 PM

    Reminds me of a Teddy Roosevelt quote.... “It is not the critic who counts...

    Kind of ironic considering his unstinting criticism of Wilson in the months and years leading to America's entry in WWI.

    My problem with conservatives is just how ahistorical they are.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous8:59 PM

    The press has been reporting on and off since the beginning of 2005 that the Coalition already had plans in place to draw down a good portion of the troops during 2006 after the elections.

    BART has now taken to out-and-out lying.

    The Administration's position has NEVER been that they would withdraw troops in 2006, either before or after the election. Bush's position has been the OPPOSITE - that we would stay as long as necessary to get the job done, and there would be NO TIMETABLES for withdraw.

    That's the position the troops rejected and gave a big FUCK YOU to. They said they want out this year - and only a SMALL MINORITY said we should stay until the job is done.

    Like most other Americans, the troops have rejected the Commander-in-Chief's vision for Iraq because it is FAILING. They have no interest in losing their lives over a stupid, failed project.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous9:01 PM

    Stabbed in the back" by enemies at home.

    Sounds vaguely familiar...


    I think the proper word is 'Dolchstoss'

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous9:02 PM

    Bart cites what is a frankly astonishingly low casualty count on the part of the Iraqis, and a consistent well of support for the occupation.

    Not that I don't necessarily doubt either your citations or facts, but exactly what sources are you quoting here, Bart?

    Which studies?

    Which polls?

    Conducted by who and when?

    Or am I simply being naive in thinking you'll answer?

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous9:03 PM

    Shorter Bart:

    "but, but, but...they painted some schools!"

    Go tell the families of the folks incinerated in Fallujah all about it, Bart.

    And yeah, yeah, I know, "we didn't napalm Fallujah". Nice definition-of-is style parsing that seems to be perfectly acceptable in regards to "napalm" and "torture" but just doesn't apply to "sex".

    I doubt the individuals being roasted alive would appreciate the point that the self-oxidizing collodial petrochemical suspension frying them in their own skin was not, in fact, napalm.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Ellen said...

    Bart: The press has been reporting on and off since the beginning of 2005 that the Coalition already had plans in place to draw down a good portion of the troops during 2006 after the elections.

    BART has now taken to out-and-out lying.

    The Administration's position has NEVER been that they would withdraw troops in 2006, either before or after the election. Bush's position has been the OPPOSITE - that we would stay as long as necessary to get the job done, and there would be NO TIMETABLES for withdraw.


    Of course they say that. You never let the enemy know what you are planning...although that is getting more and more difficult with the incredibly irresponsible press we have these days. No newspaper would have published troop movements during a war in WWII.

    However, let me clue you in about some basics concerning military planning. You just don't decide at the last minute to move hundreds of thousands of men, machines and supplies around the world and POOF they all arrive.

    It takes months and even years of preplanning by thousands of staff to pull off these moves which appear to be effortless to you.

    Mr. Bush gave the go ahead to the military for this war several months in advance of the actual campaign to start this enormous machine rolling. While he could have called back the military any time short of the start of the war, the wheels got moving a long time before Colin Powell went to the UN.

    Similarly, sometime in 2004, the Joint Chiefs and the President probably decided on a withdrawal timetable in 2006 based on the Iraqis achieving political and military deadlines set for 2005. Of course, these plans can be changed later, but by necessity they are made far ahead of time.

    The British papers leaked this timetable back in the beginning of 2005. Of course, the Coalition denied everything in an attempt to keep the enemy guessing. However, that reports has been repeated many times over 2005.

    You might remember Murtha getting defensive about all the crap he was getting for his cut and run plan and predicting to the press that most of the troops would be out of Iraq by the end of 2006. Given his position in the House, he most likely has been briefed about the intended troop movements.

    ReplyDelete
  139. yankeependragon said...

    Bart cites what is a frankly astonishingly low casualty count on the part of the Iraqis, and a consistent well of support for the occupation.

    Not that I don't necessarily doubt either your citations or facts, but exactly what sources are you quoting here, Bart?


    Brookings keeps a pretty good summary of all the carnage in Iraq...

    http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

    I am using one of the higher estimated noted by Brookings when I approximated 30,000 civilian dead. Given that the Iraqi Muslims bury their dead within 24 hours, I tend to think many of the casualties from small arms fire killing civilians where they live are probably not all brought to the attention of the authorities.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous9:21 PM

    Oh, so now you're going to impress me with war stories, huh Bart? I'll bet your eyes get all misty when you tell your stories to your buddies down at the VFW hall. "It was tough I tell you, I almost heard about an outfit that might have had an injury. It was bad, really bad."

    Jesus.

    My uncle was at Tarawa. He didn't tell war stories Jody. Get it?

    And when your tissue paper patriotism is challenged you fall back onto obscenities. "FO, FO, I AM a hero! I am I am I am!"

    You're a coward. You send other people's children to die for your lies.

    You're a disgrace. Get out of my country.

    ReplyDelete
  141. LittlePig said...

    Go tell the families of the folks incinerated in Fallujah all about it, Bart.


    Exhibit A of the war crime slander against our soldiers.

    The Italian television show accusing the US of frying civilians with White Phosphorous was badly done propaganda.

    The sources used bodies provided by the local enemy militia and the testimony of a former Army specialist who runs an anti war site on the web.

    WP literally melts holes in your body when it hits. The bodies shown by the television program showed no such markings. They did appear to show deaqcy after being dug up which the clueless Italian journalist claimed were burns.

    Also, the lying sack of cah cah ex soldier claimed that he saw soldiers shooting civilians. Later, this traitorous piece of garbage admitted that he was in fact on guard duty outside of the city when the battle was going on, but claimed that others told him about these massacres. When his 1st Sergeant found out about what this puke was publishing on his blog, he literally wanted to hang the SOB for treason.

    The fact is that we had reporters embedded with the units in Fallujah and they saw none of these alleged war crimes.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous9:32 PM

    Bart,

    Lose the WWII comparisons. It's apples and oranges, and really doesn't help you.

    The folks who were the government in France before Germany invaded approved the D-Day bombings, and in fact French battleships participated.

    The Allies asked, and the French government accepted.

    Scum of the earth though he may be, Saddam Hussein was the Iraqi government. We did not ask him if we could bomb him, nor did he accept.

    WWII - Germany was the agressor.
    Iraq - America is the agressor.

    WWII - government persmission
    Iraq - government overthrow

    In WWII we were defending the United States against a legitimate threat already on the move. Saddam was not a legitimate threat to the United States.

    You keep comparing the role of a defender (America in WWII) to the role of an invader (America in Iraq). They just don't compare.

    in 1998, I was more afraid of loose nukes in Khazakstan (where some 10 Megatonners remain unaccounted for) than Iraq. So I was in 2001, and so I remain today. Iraq's not a speck on our ass. If you are so afraid of the Muslim in every bush (particularly ironic given that Iraq was the most secular Middle Eastern state), then please seek medical help.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous9:57 PM

    anon said...
    That's quite the worldview you folks have there...Kind of a "Fear and Loathing in Every Aspect of Our Lives" tilt that forsees nothing but bad times ahead and which displays a remarkable talent for "ignore the positive, accentuate the negative".

    But you're "Progressive"...


    Nice projection, but it's not liberal progressives who are currently afraid of their shadows willingly giving up civil liberties for an illusion of security. Nor are they the loathing-types of anyone not white, christian, hetero, relatively affluent or pro-life and who happen to applaud hate-mongerers. That would be those right-whingers, the same ones who have actively supported this utter fiasco of an administration for the past 4.5 years.

    I'm curious what positives there are to accentuate that could mitigate even a fraction of the negatives. However I've found those who project tend to have a rather fantastical grasp on reality already.

    I'd truly like to hear about positives like the humming economy, only reality-based types know its fuelled by unsustainably profligate governornment spending.

    I'd like to hear about "freedom on the march" in Iraq, only reality-based types know freedom doesn't include Abu Graibs, or necessary curfews to avoid civil wars, or interior ministries that torture and 'disappear' people, etc...

    I'd like to hear about Saddam being deposed and brought to justice, only reality-based types know that the costs and sacrifices to get to this point - an exorbitant cost and terrible sacrifice that will be carried by virtually every American for a generation or two SAVE the most affluent (who are as likely as not to profit from the business) - are genuinely and thoroughly insane.

    What other positives are there that "Progressives" should be giddy about? 1300+ dead in New Orleans post Katrina? Further commercial encroachment of the National Parks? Coathanger abortions trending up? Medicare programs that are being rejected wholesale by millions of our elderly? "No child left behind" that is managing to do just that? Cuts in military active duty danger pay? Chiefs of Staff censoring cartoonists? A unitary executive power-grab that would have the founding fathers spinning in their graves?

    There is only one positive a true progressive can accentuate, one positive a true progressive can promote, anticipate, and work towards - the eventual end of this administrations hold on government.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous10:04 PM

    This is big, friends. Very, very big. A man whose name is known to almost every person in America, a man who served as Fed Chief under both Democratic and Republican Presidents, a man who could bring "big money" and Wall Street on board, says he would back, when the time comes, the right Third Party candidate.

    Yippee! Despite the fact that Alan Greenspan chose to become part of the power elite, and played the game to retain that position of power, we know what's lodged so deeply in his heart that he couldn't erase it if he wanted to: a Constitutional libertarian.

    From Wall Street Journal article to be found on Huffington Post.

    Speaking to a Wall Street gathering Wednesday, the former Federal Reserve chairman decried the "polarization" of American politics and said the ground was ripe for a third party presidential candidate, according to several people who attended the event.

    A member of the audience asked Mr. Greenspan if he would endorse a candidate for president. Mr. Greenspan said he would not, "for now." But he went on to describe the two American parties now as controlled by their extreme wings, even though the voting public is far more centrist, the people who were present said. He described the leadership of the parties as "bimodal," meaning clustered at the extreme ideological ends, whereas the voting public was "monomodal," meaning clustered near the middle.

    Such situations, he said, create an opening for a third-party candidate who appeals to the center. That, he said, could prompt the candidates of the other two parties to move back to the center, for fear of losing.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous10:37 PM

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
    DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
    DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
    it's a waste of time.
    BART occasionally has something interesting to say. he seems to have some legal backgroud that on some occasions makes his stubborn invective less idiotic and ill-informed.
    but today he doesn't have much of anything to say and he's repeating the EXACT SAME THING over and over. if you wnat to know what he thinks, just read what he's written and be satisfied, since he's apparently not bothering with any more original thinking today.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous10:42 PM

    Anonymous Coward

    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH

    It takes a real BIG MAN to put a name like RICHARD GRACE at the end of a post.

    Wow -- what else can I say?

    Like the rantings of lunatics makes any more sense when use a name...

    Why not let your ideas shine and not your stupidity?

    Perhaps we could actually work together for a more just America if we didn't worry what all the "important people" say.

    Last time I checked my book, RICHARD GRACE was not in it...

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous10:49 PM

    I like the way someone pointed out tath gedaliya was a shill with connections to the republicans and possibly paid to disrupt blogs.

    Haven't seen that troll since.....

    Now if we would just respond to the people that come here for dialog and not simply to disrupt.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous11:08 PM

    It seems completely implausible that today's Republicans would even find it necessary to defend themselves at all for the huge failure of the Iraq war. We all know very well that by the end of the war the ENTIRE country of Iraq could be on fire -- I'm talking a satellite image shows blazing red in the shape of Iraq -- and they'd be telling America what a overwhelming success it was. Accepting responsibility, taking the blame, admitting mistakes, staying objective in the face of opposition -- these are ideals lost to American politics forever. Bush has shown us that power is all that matters, personal responsibility is a sentiment of the weak.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous11:10 PM

    In all his arguments Bart hides behind the brave US soldiers. Probably did the same thing when he was in Kuwait.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous11:24 PM

    Yeah, you're right. It's not worth responding to trolls. My bad. I sure wish there were some rational Republicans out there, but it appears not. I do think the "sanitation board" comment was rather nifty, though... I may use it elsewhere. :)

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous11:29 PM

    "A member of the audience asked Mr. Greenspan if he would endorse a candidate for president. Mr. Greenspan said he would not, "for now." But he went on to describe the two American parties now as controlled by their extreme wings, even though the voting public is far more centrist, the people who were present said. He described the leadership of the parties as "bimodal," meaning clustered at the extreme ideological ends, whereas the voting public was "monomodal," meaning clustered near the middle.

    Such situations, he said, create an opening for a third-party candidate who appeals to the center. That, he said, could prompt the candidates of the other two parties to move back to the center, for fear of losing."

    gee, it's nice that Greenspan endorsed the idea of a third party candidate, but it's unfortunate that the reasons he gave for doing so are either factually incorrect or silly:

    "he describe[d] the two American parties now as controlled by their extreme wings, even though the voting public is far more centrist."

    um, no. the entire political landscape has tilted pretty far to the right. What passes for a radical liberal in congress these days - Kerry, Kennedy, Clinton? [I left out Kucinich 'cause I don't know much about his positions.] Now, I'm not ripping on them, but they actually represent what until recent decades were considered pretty moderate liberal positions: a compromise position between being pro-labor and free-trade, pro-choice, in favor of bugetary restraint and general middle of the road socially moderate getting along together.

    these positions can easily be distinguished from radical liberal positions, especially as concerns trade [strongly against "free" trade] and military intervention on the world stage [more or less pacifist and/or isolationist].

    this is obviously a rough distinction and and i'm making it in a reductive, quick and dirty way, but it's nonetheless true that this "everyone's getting more extreme" idea is just flat out wrong.

    further, supporting a third party candidate in the current political situation would only have the effect of further splintering the left and ensuring the continued dominance of the republican party since any third party candidate would arise either in a moderate/centrist position or in a "radical" liberal position. the right isn't going to give rise to a third party on the even-more-radical rightwing position, since the party has played a good game of speaking to the center while placating the radicals in policy. and even though i keep hearing about these ernest and thoughtful Republicans who are angry at what has become of their conservative values while in power, um... I doubt that any of them would really vote for a moderate third party candidate: they seem mostly to be concerned that the party in power has become corrupt and forgotten about their previous plan to drown the federal government in a bathtub.

    so...the idea of supporting a third party candidate in order to drive the traditional two parties away from their (disputably) radical positions is dumb and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the current state of American politics. Frankly, by making that argument, Greenspan just demonstrated that he either hasn't thought about it much or that he just doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. it's ok, I mean he's been in the fed a long time, he's allowed to be out of touch and bewildered for a few years...

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous11:42 PM

    "I like the way someone pointed out tath gedaliya was a shill with connections to the republicans and possibly paid to disrupt blogs.

    Haven't seen that troll since.....
    "

    i especially liked the "I'm a non-college educated non-lawyer lurker, please continue to waste your time for my ignorant benefit" comment yesterday after that troll was identified as a shill. ha.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous11:43 PM

    Condi Rice has requested $75,000,000 to fund the insurgents in Iran.

    This is how our government operates. Openly. They refuse to stay out of the internal affairs of other countries and let the people in those countries sort out what type of society they want.

    Can anyone carefully reading this last's weeks statements by the White House about the recent fighting in Iraq doubt that our government is the instigator and promoter of the outbreak of violence?

    They have but one goal: establish that the armed contingents of the various warring factions pose a threat to the security of Iraq, convince the people of Iraq that is the case, that the Big Bad Bogeyman (Al Quaeda, Sunni armed groups, terrorists, whatever) is on the loose and his target is peaceful civility in Iraq, and disarm him.

    Bushco's intent appears clear as crystal to me, and I wonder why nobody else writes about it. If one reads between the lines of Bush's recent interview with Elizabeth Vargas, it's difficult to come to any other conclusion.

    The "exit" strategy, to the extent we are going to exit, is to set up a totalitarian state in Iraq, in which all arms are taken away from the various groups who now possess weapons, leaving the only weapons in the hands of a Shiite, US backed government/police force, which will ruthlessly and brutally disarm, terrorize, and murder any group who seeks to oppose it.

    Our administration wants a fascist type of repressive government here, with total control in the hands of the Executive Branch. Why is it hard to believe they want the same thing there?

    Sure, citizens here are allowed to have arms, but those arms are meaningless in terms of ever being able to be used for an insurgency against the Government, which is a good thing.

    But Iraq is a different situation, without an established Constitutional Democracy to protect the rights of private citizens and allow them to dislodge the party in power through elections.

    Therefore, unless a US backed repressive, authoritarian government that has the police power to stifle all dissent before it starts is set up, the situation there will remain in flux in a way that the administration doesn't want, because the people would be free to protest if their government violated their civil liberties and their right to dissent.

    In essence, I think Bushco et al have decided that maybe Iraq under a Saddam Hussein wasn't so bad after all, and that the solution is to subsitute an Iraqi Police State which answers to Washington in the role of Saddam.

    Eliminate the figurehead, pretend there is a coalition of factions which control the government, and instead put in a US bought police state in whose hands all power is vested.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous11:48 PM

    Shorter Matt S.

    If you can't fix the mess made by the President, you are being unhelpful and unpatriotic in bringing the subject up.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous11:48 PM

    just thought I'd chime in with another reason for the pre-emptive strike against Iraq:

    To show the world that America will pre-emptively strike at perceived threats to it's intrests regardless of the opinions of the UN, NATO or any other global policing agent. Iraq was made an example of this bold new foreign policy paradigm since it was perceived to be both weak and beligerent, and because of it's past history with the States.

    On one level, the war has had a certain amount of success in this regard. Other nations are definitely more wary of how they behave toward America. State-sponsored terrorism especially has dried up, or at least gone way underground. Because of the Iraq war we are probably unlikely to see another 9/11-level attack on any nation for many years. However, we are probably more likely to see one eventually.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Haven't seen that troll since.....

    Before you get too overwhelmed in what appears to be a spastic Bush-Hate leftist frenzy, be advised that I'm alive and well around these parts and will comment on this or that issue when I am moved to do so.

    I've been posting online for well over fifteen years, having started on dial-up BBS sites well before the advent of browser-based internet forums, and I'm not about to get scared away from expressing my views here or anywhere else by jejune insults from inarticulate bug-eyed gauleiters of the fever-swamp left.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous12:13 AM

    well now Iraq is even more like vietnam... they're blaming the people who were against it for causing its failure.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous12:20 AM

    "Condi Rice has requested $75,000,000 to fund the insurgents in Iran.

    This is how our government operates. Openly. They refuse to stay out of the internal affairs of other countries and let the people in those countries sort out what type of society they want.

    Can anyone carefully reading this last's weeks statements by the White House about the recent fighting in Iraq doubt that our government is the instigator and promoter of the outbreak of violence?"

    ok dude. take tinfoil off head, insert into mouth and chew. stop embarassing yourself: adults are having a conversation here.

    "This is how our government operates. Openly."
    of course they operate openly. they're openly opposed to the government of Iran and have openly worked against it since the Iranian revolution. this isn't news, and it's not shocking. (occasionally they operate clandestinely, and that is a much bigger deal - e.g. American foreign policy in latin america throughout much of the 20th century.)

    "Can anyone carefully reading this last's weeks statements by the White House about the recent fighting in Iraq doubt that our government is the instigator and promoter of the outbreak of violence?"

    no, the various factions killing each other in Iraq have been wanting to get started for, oh, say pretty much the last century. (of course, they've been wanting to kill one another for longer than that, like ever since that shia sunni split like a billion years ago.) again, not surprising and not news.
    our government is responsible for the violence there in the same way as that drunk guy at the nuclear power plant: they went in and fucked up the only systems keeping the thing from blowing apart. (don't read that as a justification of Baath pseudo-totalitarianism, BTW)

    "Bushco's intent appears clear as crystal to me, and I wonder why nobody else writes about it."
    um... because you're poorly informed and wrong?

    "The "exit" strategy, to the extent we are going to exit, is to set up a totalitarian state in Iraq..." blah blah blah.

    so...the US attacked one pseudo-totalitarian state in order to install another pseudo-totalitarian state they'll like better? but wait, why not just recognize Saddam again and take his cheap and abundant oil like we did throughout the 80's?
    no, this war was pursued for ends you might even cast as idealistic, albeit in a twisted way: they really thought they could remake Iraq into a corporate tax haven and oil depot simply by killing the bad guys in charge.

    the result of the US's actions in Iraq may be a brutal and repressive regime there, but that will come about due to the near unbelieveable stupidity of this administration, not because they had some "master plan." the Bush administration is most just short-sighted and arrogant. they had a hard time even figuring out how to effeciently gerrymander texas, and you expect them to be able to efficiently install a totalitarian regime half a planet away? (I mean it's TEXAS, how hard can it be to draw republican majority districts?)

    I have zero patience for the tinfoil hat BS liberal spew: there are enough genuine problems with the current state of the world without making up stupid shit to get paranoid about.

    go read a book. it probably doesn't even matter much which one you choose.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous12:25 AM

    really, I wish Glen would just ban that mofo. i know, i know, don't feed the trolls...

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous12:36 AM

    One of the most alarming consequences of starting a pre-emptive war on false pretenses against a nation which is not a direct threat to us, a war which loses the support of the troops, might be

    THE DRAFT.

    If that happens again in this country, it will be the ultimate tragedy.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous12:47 AM

    Bart said (much earlier):

    I am proud to proclaim my support for the liberation of Iraq. I am also more than happy to take credit for:

    1) Removing the mass murderer Saddam Hussein...

    2) Eliminating the Baathist police state...

    3) Stopping the UN sanctions...

    4) Stopping the UN Oil for Food Program...

    5) Eliminating the Iraqi WMD programs...
    6) Eliminating the safe haven..
    7) Help the Iraqis create the first constitutional representative democracy in the Arab world...

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure.


    Bart, is your real name Ahmed Chalabi? 'cause this sounds like HIS list.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous1:02 AM

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure.

    Very cavalier of you. But if you are taking responsibility for ending other's lives, then you deserve to be punished.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous1:09 AM

    Glen we can't let the neo-cons and their propaganda machine get away with not accepting their blame. You need to, because you articulate as good as anyone I've ever read. thanks

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous1:40 AM

    Yo, gedaliya,

    At what cost is this war no longer worth it to you? My war support limit was $100 Big ones and a thousand dead in exchange for a democratic and stable Iraq. Since we’re now way past that I’m here protesting with the “fever swamp left”. Buckley’s war support limit appears to have been crossed, what’s yours?

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous1:44 AM

    " Anonymous said...

    8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure.

    Very cavalier of you. But if you are taking responsibility for ending other's lives, then you deserve to be punished. "

    way to repeat an obvious point that's been articulated in nearly identical language several times already.
    by those criteria, you're as boring as BART. congratulations.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous1:51 AM

    Glen said:

    "Even if one believes that the anti-war movement undermined the war effort in Vietnam,"

    It did and the idea behind it was good. The Viet Nam war like the Iraq war was prosecuted on lies and deceipt. I had no personal problem with people being anti-war, my problem was with many of the tactics they used. IE: Dressing up in military uniform and going around to the families of military personel serving in Viet Nam and telling them that their sons and husbands had been killed.

    "The notion that the "anti-war" movement for Iraq - to the extent there even was such a thing - had anywhere near the effect or influence of the movement that opposed the war in Vietnam is just a blatant falsehood."

    I agree, my comment was basically directed at the politicians who are once again beginning the blame shifting in an effort to absolve themselves of any of the wrong doing that they in fact are responsible for.

    Those of us that were subject to the bashing that occured because of the Viet Nam anti-war movement suffered for years because of it. No one would hire us when we returned. Many of us became homeless, and others committed suicide. Still others turned to drugs and alcohol and ended up in jail. We were abandoned by the government, the public, and some cases our own families. Because we were the "baby killers", even though the number of actual incidents of that nature were relatively small. The largest number of us served as admirally as any that came before us. And we were not the only ones to have reprehensible incidents happen in war. WWII and Korea had them as I am sure other wars before did. the difference was that we were punished as a group by the public rather than the public punishing those that committed the crimes.

    The raw fact is that there is no glory in war, only blood and pain and death.

    My main concern now is that this time it not turn into a military bashing party. I don't think that I will be inclined to be tolerant of that type of bashing if it starts again.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous1:57 AM

    So lets just declare our brave soldiers heros and bash the chickenhawk leadership instead!

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous2:00 AM

    anonymous 11:29 re: Greenspan's Third Party.

    I read your observations on Greenspan's statements and I disagree with your conclusions.

    Knowing Greenspan's mind well from his pre-Fed days, I would guess that what he is talking about is this:

    The "extreme" element of the Democratic party he is talking about is the big government, anti-capitalist, reflexively hate the rich faction, many of whom contribute heavily to certain K street advocacy groups and to leftist candidates who in turn influence the party platfrom.

    The "extreme" element of the Republican party is he talking about is the Religious Right which substitutes dogma for reason, and heavily influences the Republican Party to take positions which are compatable with their religious views.

    We can assume Greenspan would want to see a candidate who favors:

    l) Small government.
    2) Strict adherence to the Constitution and the Rule of Law.
    3) The broadest possible protections for individual freedoms (especially freedom from a repressive, intrusive government) and heavy emphasis on core civil liberties.
    4)Government accountabilty.
    5) A capitalistic free market.
    6) Fiscally responsible economic policies.

    His personal position is that a woman should have the right to have an abortion. Whether he believes this right is guaranteed in the Consitution, or that the states should make the laws concerning abortion, I don't know. Certainly he would never support a pro-life candidate.

    What his specific views on the Iraq war, war in general, foreign policy, etc. are, I am not sure. He's obviously against all forms of totalitarianism, and is a strong proponent of the form of constitutional democracy our Founders created.

    I see increased "chatter", as on "24", on many Internet blogs about the unadvisablity of a Third Party, and the slim chance that it would succeed.

    I attribute that "chatter", which I expect will grow louder and more ubiquitous, to the fact that neither party or its more partisan supporters wants a third party to gain any traction.

    Both the Democrats and the Republicans will argue to their followers that a Third Party candidate would enable the other party to win the election.

    I disagree with all the "chatter" and think Greenspan is right that it just may be that the time has finally arrived in our country's history for a Third Party to emerge which can capture the Presidency. Depends on who the Presidential Candidate is, what big guns support his candidacy from the starting gate, what nationally known figures from the present Democratic and Republican parties are willing to defect and support a third party, what his platform is, and how well he articulates his positions.

    It also depends on how well Glenn and his co-stategists succeed in educating the public as to what is really at stake now in America.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous2:02 AM

    Bart said:

    "8) I also fully accept responsibility for the cost of this war in lives and treasure. War is never cheap, but the freedom we brought to the Iraqi people is priceless."

    That is undoubtedly one of the emptiest statements I have ever heard made.

    Just how do you intend to accept responsibility other than by making an empty statement that you are doing so?

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous2:11 AM

    Anonymous said...

    So lets just declare our brave soldiers heros and bash the chickenhawk leadership instead!

    I can definitely agree with that. Bash those that deserve it.

    BTW as an indication of the support that Bush actually shows for those of us that have fought for this country: He has quadrupled my prescription copays since he got in office and he has shorted VA funding on more than one occasion. Last year Congress had to go in and give VA a supplemental because they hadn't planned on all of the Iraq war vets that would and will need continuing medical care.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous2:28 AM

    Latest Iraqi war casualty -- conservative belief in "personal responsibility"

    I disagree. I think it was the first casualty of the war.


    No, it wasn't a casualty of the war. It has always been the case that what the "conservatives" call "personal responsibility" has always just been a code phrase used to blame anyone but themselves; the personal responsibility they refer to has never been their own. This was blatantly obvious long long before this war, as they blamed the poor, unwed mothers, welfare recipients, etc. etc. for the consequences of their self-serving policies (and libertarians are no better in this regard -- in fact, they invented the game).

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous2:50 AM

    Do you think gedalina and have been instructed to take more direct action, perhaps on the server?

    No, we think you're a pathetic paranoid troll and tinfoil hat wearer. "The server" belongs to blogspot and hosts blogs all across the political spectrum.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous3:08 AM

    gedalyia said...
    ...and I'm not about to get scared away from expressing my views here or anywhere else...
    And yet you are such a simpering coward.

    Curious...

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous3:10 AM

    Glenn: Jon wrote a good post. I left a comment there.

    If by "good" you mean "sophistic strawman". Your comment in response was right on. It got a predictably dishonest reply from wingnut Tom Perkins.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous3:12 AM

    truth machine: (and libertarians are no better in this regard -- in fact, they invented the game).

    How about socialists and communists? How do you think they stack up in terms of taking personal responsibility?

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous3:35 AM

    anonymous 200 am
    re: third party candidates etc.

    "The "extreme" element of the Democratic party he is talking about is the big government, anti-capitalist, reflexively hate the rich faction, many of whom contribute heavily to certain K street advocacy groups and to leftist candidates who in turn influence the party platfrom."

    I am pretty sure this extreme element doesn't actually exsist as a force in Democratic politics.

    Here's the table of contents from the Democratic party platform from 2004:

    CONTENTS

    PREAMBLE . . 1

    A STRONG, RESPECTED AMERICA. .. 3

    DEFEATING TERRORISM..............4

    KEEPING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION OUT OF THE HANDS OF TERRORISTS....................6

    PROMOTING DEMOCRACY, PEACE, AND SECURITY........7

    STRENGTHENING OUR MILITARY ....12

    ACHIEVING ENERGY INDEPENDENCE............14

    STRENGTHENING HOMELAND SECURITY......................16

    A STRONG, GROWING ECONOMY. . . . 21

    CREATING GOOD JOBS.....21

    STANDING UP FOR THE GREAT AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS..........24

    STRONG, HEALTHY FAMILIES. . 29

    REFORMING HEALTH CARE .........
    IMPROVING EDUCATION.........................32

    PROTECTING OUR ENVIRONMENT.............34

    A STRONG AMERICAN COMMUNITY.. 37

    [sorry about the poor formatting]

    now, this seems to me like an excessively moderate party platform. note the lack of the "Establish the Dictatorship of the Proletariat" section of the party platform.
    and no, there simply isn't any "big government, anti-capitalist, reflexively hate the rich faction" -type text in the document.

    this is because those people do not have a place in the Democratic party, nor in the americna political scene generally. [unlike the flatly racist, theocratic comfy place the far right has in the Republican party, btw.]


    [one example offered up of a democratic extremist is Soros, and his associated foundations. Go to the Open Society Institute webpage and read their list of recent grantees. Go to Soros' home base, the OSI, and try to find these extremeists. Go on. They aren't there...]


    this "the everyone has gotten more extreme" talking point is BS. as in flat out wrong. incorrect. fantastic.

    "I disagree with all the "chatter" and think Greenspan is right that it just may be that the time has finally arrived in our country's history for a Third Party to emerge which can capture the Presidency."

    yeah, it would be great if there were a viable third party to contribute to our american political culture.

    but i think most progressives think it would be even better if there were a viable SECOND party to represent their values at a national level.

    gotta go. sorry this is disorganized.

    &
    remember
    don't feed the trolls.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous3:39 AM

    Most folks screaming about the "failings" of the war cannot come up with alternatives that would have worked.

    I see that you so appreciated Glenn's exposition of the conservative tactic that you immediately put it into effect.

    Here's a parallel case: Greenland is melting and the polar bears are dying. The Bush response is to hand the U.S. treasury to the oil companies. When this doesn't work out so well, it will be the fault of those of us who criticize his policies for not saving Greenland and the polar bears ourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous3:41 AM

    truth machine: (and libertarians are no better in this regard -- in fact, they invented the game).

    How about socialists and communists? How do you think they stack up in terms of taking personal responsibility?


    Lovely bit of tu quoque. The Scandinavians seem to stack up rather well, actually.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Glenn

    "...most prominent Democrats were bullied and intimidated into supporting the invasion of Iraq by a combination of Bush’s sky-high popularity and accusations of subversiveness which were launched at anyone who opposed the Leader’s war."

    This is pretty funny in a piece on taking responsibility and shifting blame!

    What a combo punch, eh? How long did it take you to figure out how to say victims of their own political ambitions and moral cowardice without making the Dems look as bad as the Republicans you're critiquing?

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous4:26 AM

    Found this on thersites' blog. I urge all to read it. It's by the man I think should be President of the United States. Does any (legitimate) commentor disagree with any of his points?

    Who Will Save America?

    My Epiphany

    By Paul Craig Roberts

    02/06/06 "Counterpunch" -- -- A number of readers have asked me when did I undergo my epiphany, abandon right-wing Reaganism and become an apostle of truth and justice.

    I appreciate the friendly sentiment, but there is a great deal of misconception in the question.

    When I saw that the neoconservative response to 9/11 was to turn a war against stateless terrorism into military attacks on Muslim states, I realized that the Bush administration was committing a strategic blunder with open-ended disastrous consequences for the US that, in the end, would destroy Bush, the Republican Party, and the conservative movement.

    My warning was not prompted by an effort to save Bush's bacon. I have never been any party's political or ideological servant. I used my positions in the congressional staff and the Reagan administration to change the economic policy of the United States. In my efforts, I found more allies among influential Democrats, such as Senate Finance Committee Chairman Russell Long, Joint Economic Committee Chairman Lloyd Bentsen and my Georgia Tech fraternity brother Sam Nunn, than I did among traditional Republicans who were only concerned about the budget deficit.

    My goals were to reverse the Keynesian policy mix that caused worsening "Phillips curve" trade-offs between employment and inflation and to cure the stagflation that destroyed Jimmy Carter's presidency. No one has seen a "Phillips curve" trade-off or experienced stagflation since the supply-side policy was implemented. (These gains are now being eroded by the labor arbitrage that is replacing American workers with foreign ones. In January 2004 I teamed up with Democratic Senator Charles Schumer in the New York Times and at a Brookings Institution conference in a joint effort to call attention to the erosion of the US economy and Americans' job prospects by outsourcing.)

    The supply-side policy used reductions in the marginal rate of taxation on additional income to create incentives to expand production so that consumer demand would result in increased real output instead of higher prices. No doubt, the rich benefitted, but ordinary people were no longer faced simultaneously with rising inflation and lost jobs. Employment expanded for the remainder of the century without having to pay for it with high and rising rates of inflation. Don't ever forget that Reagan was elected and re-elected by blue collar Democrats.

    The left-wing's demonization of Ronald Reagan owes much to the Republican Establishment. The Republican Establishment regarded Reagan as a threat to its hegemony over the party. They saw Jack Kemp the same way. Kemp, a professional football star quarterback, represented an essentially Democratic district. Kemp was aggressive in challenging Republican orthodoxy. Both Reagan and Kemp spoke to ordinary people. As a high official in the Reagan administration, I was battered by the Republican Establishment, which wanted enough Reagan success so as not to jeopardize the party's "lock on the presidency" but enough failure so as to block the succession to another outsider. Anyone who reads my book, The Supply-Side Revolution (Harvard University Press, 1984) will see what the real issues were.

    If I had time to research my writings over the past 30 years, I could find examples of partisan articles in behalf of Republicans and against Democrats. However, political partisanship is not the corpus of my writings. I had a 16-year stint as Business Week's first outside columnist, despite hostility within the magazine and from the editor's New York social set, because the editor regarded me as the most trenchant critic of the George H.W. Bush administration in the business. The White House felt the same way and lobbied to have me removed from the William E. Simon Chair in Political Economy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

    Earlier when I resigned from the Reagan administration to accept appointment to the new chair, CSIS was part of Georgetown University. The University's liberal president, Timothy Healy, objected to having anyone from the Reagan administration in a chair affiliated with Georgetown University. CSIS had to defuse the situation by appointing a distinguished panel of scholars from outside universities, including Harvard, to ratify my appointment.

    I can truly say that at one time or the other both sides have tried to shut me down. I have experienced the same from "free thinking" libertarians, who are free thinking only inside their own box.

    In Reagan's time we did not recognize that neoconservatives had a Jacobin frame of mind. Perhaps we were not paying close enough attention. We saw neoconservatives as former left-wingers who had realized that the Soviet Union might be a threat after all. We regarded them as allies against Henry Kissinger's inclination to reach an unfavorable accommodation with the Soviet Union. Kissinger thought, or was believed to think, that Americans had no stomach for a drawn-out contest and that he needed to strike a deal before the Soviets staked the future on a lack of American resolution.

    Reagan was certainly no neoconservative. He went along with some of their schemes, but when neoconservatives went too far, he fired them. George W. Bush promotes them. The left-wing might object that the offending neocons in the Reagan administration were later pardoned, but there was sincere objection to criminalizing what was seen, rightly or wrongly, as stalwartness in standing up to communism.

    Neoconservatives were disappointed with Reagan. Reagan's goal was to END the cold war, not to WIN it. He made common purpose with Gorbachev and ENDED the cold war. It is the new Jacobins, the neoconservatives, who have exploited this victory by taking military bases to Russian borders.

    I have always objected to injustice. My writings about prosecutorial abuse have put me at odds with "law and order conservatives." I have written extensively about wrongful convictions, both of the rich and famous and the poor and unknown. My thirty-odd columns on the frame-up of 26 innocent people in the Wenatchee, Washington, child sex abuse witch hunt played a role in the eventual overturning of the wrongful convictions.

    My book, with Lawrence Stratton, The Tyranny of Good Intentions, details the erosion of the legal rights that make law a shield of the innocent instead of a weapon in the hands of government. Without the protection of law, rich and poor alike are at the mercy of government. In their hatred of "the rich," the left-wing overlooks that in the 20th century the rich were the class most persecuted by government. The class genocide of the 20th century is the greatest genocide in history.

    Americans have forgotten what it takes to remain free. Instead, every ideology, every group is determined to use government to advance its agenda. As the government's power grows, the people are eclipsed.

    We have reached a point where the Bush administration is determined to totally eclipse the people. Bewitched by neoconservatives and lustful for power, the Bush administration and the Republican Party are aligning themselves firmly against the American people. Their first victims, of course, were the true conservatives. Having eliminated internal opposition, the Bush administration is now using blackmail obtained through illegal spying on American citizens to silence the media and the opposition party.

    Before flinching at my assertion of blackmail, ask yourself why President Bush refuses to obey the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The purpose of the FISA court is to ensure that administrations do not spy for partisan political reasons. The warrant requirement is to ensure that a panel of independent federal judges hears a legitimate reason for the spying, thus protecting a president from the temptation to abuse the powers of government. The only reason for the Bush administration to evade the court is that the Bush administration had no legitimate reasons for its spying. This should be obvious even to a naif.

    The United States is undergoing a coup against the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, civil liberties, and democracy itself. The "liberal press" has been co-opted. As everyone must know by now, the New York Times has totally failed its First Amendment obligations, allowing Judith Miller to make war propaganda for the Bush administration, suppressing for an entire year the news that the Bush administration was illegally spying on American citizens, and denying coverage to Al Gore's speech that challenged the criminal deeds of the Bush administration.

    The TV networks mimic Fox News' faux patriotism. Anyone who depends on print, TV, or right-wing talk radio media is totally misinformed. The Bush administration has achieved a de facto Ministry of Propaganda.

    The years of illegal spying have given the Bush administration power over the media and the opposition. Journalists and Democratic politicians don't want to have their adulterous affairs broadcast over television or to see their favorite online porn sites revealed in headlines in the local press with their names attached. Only people willing to risk such disclosures can stand up for the country.

    Homeland Security and the Patriot Act are not our protectors. They undermine our protection by trashing the Constitution and the civil liberties it guarantees. Those with a tyrannical turn of mind have always used fear and hysteria to overcome obstacles to their power and to gain new means of silencing opposition.

    Consider the no-fly list. This list has no purpose whatsoever but to harass and disrupt the livelihoods of Bush's critics. If a known terrorist were to show up at check-in, he would be arrested and taken into custody, not told that he could not fly. What sense does it make to tell someone who is not subject to arrest and who has cleared screening that he or she cannot fly? How is this person any more dangerous than any other passenger?

    If Senator Ted Kennedy, a famous senator with two martyred brothers, can be put on a no-fly list, as he was for several weeks, anyone can be put on the list. The list has no accountability. People on the list cannot even find out why they are on the list. There is no recourse, no procedure for correcting mistakes.

    I am certain that there are more Bush critics on the list than there are terrorists. According to reports, the list now comprises 80,000 names! This number must greatly dwarf the total number of terrorists in the world and certainly the number of known terrorists.

    How long before members of the opposition party, should there be one, find that they cannot return to Washington for important votes, because they have been placed on the no-fly list? What oversight does Congress or a panel of federal judges exercise over the list to make sure there are valid reasons for placing people on the list?

    If the government can have a no-fly list, it can have a no-drive list. The Iraqi resistance has demonstrated the destructive potential of car bombs. If we are to believe the government's story about the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh showed that a rental truck bomb could destroy a large office building. Indeed, what is to prevent the government from having a list of people who are not allowed to leave their homes? If the Bush administration can continue its policy of picking up people anywhere in the world and detaining them indefinitely without having to show any evidence for their detention, it can do whatever it wishes.

    Many readers have told me, some gleefully, that I will be placed on the no-fly list along with all other outspoken critics of the growth in unaccountable executive power and war based on lies and deception. It is just a matter of time. Unchecked, unaccountable power grows more audacious by the day. As one reader recently wrote, "when the president of the United States can openly brag about being a felon, without fear of the consequences, the game is all but over."

    Congress and the media have no fight in them, and neither, apparently, do the American people. Considering the feebleness of the opposition, perhaps the best strategy is for the opposition to shut up, not merely for our own safety but, more importantly, to remove any impediments to Bush administration self-destruction. The sooner the Bush administration realizes its goals of attacking Iran, Syria, and the Shia militias in Lebanon, the more likely the administration will collapse in the maelstrom before it achieves a viable police state. Hamas' victory in the recent Palestinian elections indicates that Muslim outrage over further US aggression in the Middle East has the potential to produce uprisings in Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. Not even Karl Rove and Fox "News" could spin Bush out of the catastrophe.

    Perhaps we should go further and join the neocon chorus, urging on invasions of Iran and Syria and sending in the Marines to disarm Hizbullah in Lebanon. Not even plots of the German High Command could get rid of Hitler, but when Hitler marched German armies into Russia he destroyed himself. If Iraq hasn't beat the hubris out of what Gordon Prather aptly terms the "neo-crazies," US military adventures against Iran and Hizbullah will teach humility to the neo-crazies.

    Many patriotic readers have written to me expressing their frustration that fact and common sense cannot gain a toehold in a debate guided by hysteria and disinformation. Other readers write that 9/11 shields Bush from accountability, They challenge me to explain why three World Trade Center buildings on one day collapsed into their own footprints at free fall speed, an event outside the laws of physics except under conditions of controlled demolition. They insist that there is no stopping war and a police state as long as the government's story on 9/11 remains unchallenged.

    They could be right. There are not many editors eager for writers to explore the glaring defects of the 9/11 Commission Report. One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations. We know the government lied about Iraqi WMD, but we believe the government told the truth about 9/11.

    Debate is dead in America for two reasons: One is that the media concentration permitted in the 1990s has put news and opinion in the hands of a few corporate executives who do not dare risk their broadcasting licenses by getting on the wrong side of government, or their advertising revenues by becoming "controversial." The media follows a safe line and purveys only politically correct information. The other reason is that Americans today are no longer enthralled by debate. They just want to hear what they want to hear. The right-wing, left-wing, and libertarians alike preach to the faithful. Democracy cannot succeed when there is no debate.

    Americans need to understand that many interests are using the "war on terror" to achieve their agendas. The Federalist Society is using the "war on terror" to achieve its agenda of concentrating power in the executive and packing the Supreme Court to this effect. The neocons are using the war to achieve their agenda of Israeli hegemony in the Middle East. Police agencies are using the war to remove constraints on their powers and to make themselves less accountable. Republicans are using the war to achieve one-party rule--theirs. The Bush administration is using the war to avoid accountability and evade constraints on executive powers. Arms industries, or what President Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex," are using the war to fatten profits. Terrorism experts are using the war to gain visibility. Security firms are using it to gain customers. Readers can add to this list at will. The lack of debate gives carte blanche to these agendas.

    One certainty prevails. Bush is committing America to a path of violence and coercion, and he is getting away with it.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous5:26 AM

    I would think any investigation into whether the war in Iraq was entered into illegally would have to start here:

    (this is written by Rep. John Conyers of the House Judiciary Committe)

    The Constitution in Crisis: Censure and Investigate Possible Impeachment

    Today, I am releasing a staff report entitled, "The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution and Coverups in the Iraq War."

    ....On to the Report and what I plan to do about it. In sum, the report examines the Bush Administration's actions in taking us to war from A to Z. The report finds there is substantial evidence the President, the Vice-President and other high ranking members of the Bush Administration misled Congress and the American people regarding the decision to go to war in Iraq; misstated and manipulated intelligence information regarding the justification for such war; countenanced torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in Iraq; and permitted inappropriate retaliation against critics of their Administration.

    The Report concludes that a number of these actions amount to prima facie evidence (evidence sufficiently strong to presume the allegations are true) that federal criminal laws have been violated. Legal violations span from false statements to Congress to whistleblower laws.

    The Report also concludes that these charges clearly rise to the level of impeachable conduct. However, because the Administration has failed to respond to requests for information about these charges, it is not yet possible to conclude that an impeachment inquiry or articles of impeachment are warranted.

    In response to the Report, I have already taken a number of actions. First, I have introduced a resolution (H. Res. 635) creating a Select Committee with subpoena authority to investigate the misconduct of the Bush Administration with regard to the Iraq war and report on possible impeachable offenses. In Watergate, for example, the Congress did not begin matters as an impeachment inquiry, but investigated matters -- through the Ervin Committee -- and referred impeachable evidence to the Judiciary Committee.

    Second, I have introduced Resolutions regarding both President Bush (H. Res. 636) and Vice-President Cheney (H. Res. 637) proposing that they be censured by Congress based on the uncontroverted evidence already on the record and their failure to respond to Congressional and public inquiries about these matters and have never accounted for their many specific misstatements in the run up to War.

    As you know, taking these steps means that I am likely to be criticized by the political and media establishments in Washington and attacked by the right wing noise machine. There is a school of thought among Washington political consultants that criticizing the President about Iraq will make Democrats appear to be weak on national security. There is a media establishment that marginalizes politicians for espousing beliefs held by the majority of Americans. The right wing noise machine in turn retaliates against the President’s critics.

    Be that as it may, I just could not be silent any longer. The title of the report is exactly right: the Constitution is in Crisis. There are serious and well-substantiated allegations that the Executive Branch has usurped the sole power of the Congress to declare war by deceiving the Congress about the evidence for war. There are serious and well-substantiated allegations that the Executive Branch has deceived the American people to manufacture the people’s consent for war.

    If you agree with me, I am going to need your help like never before. Please go to my website, johnconyers.com, where you will find an action center, including a copy of the Report via Raw Story, and ways you can help. Also visit censurebush.org to join with other activists who want to move this issue forward.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous5:27 AM

    About PCR, it’s good to see all these paleos like him fighting back as true sane patriots. I can’t disagree with anything except for this:

    ”perhaps the best strategy is for the opposition to shut up, not merely for our own safety but, more importantly, to remove any impediments to Bush administration self-destruction.”

    But I think he was being facetious…

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous5:30 AM

    anon,

    I don't know if PCR was being facetious in that statement, which also gave me pause, but even if he wasn't, this article is about a month old. I personally think a month ago, the "opposition" did appear to be in a somulent state.

    Events of the last month appear to have changed that, or are changing that, and if we can all act together to awaken an increasing number of others, perhaps "shutting up" and letting Bush self destruct more slowly will not be necessary :)

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous6:43 AM

    Bush arrives in India with between 1,000 and 5,000 (various news reports) to protect him.

    23 "militants" are rounded up before he arrives and killed. (What is the definition of a "militant"? Is it a patriotic person like me who happens to disagree with the government in power?)

    "Whether Hindu or Muslim, the people of India have gathered here to show our anger. We have only one message "Killer Bush go home," one of the speakers, Hindu politician Raj Babbar, told the crowd.

    No wonder Bush needs so many people to protect him. The more evil the person, the more protection he needs.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous6:50 AM

    Whoops. Looks like this Bush critic may be joining Padilla soon.

    Raj Babbar suspended (From India National Newspaper)

    NEW DELHI: The Samajwadi Party on Tuesday suspended its two-time member of Parliament from Agra, Raj Babbar, from the Parliamentary Party on charges of "indiscipline" for his recent public statements against party general secretary Amar Singh.

    A three-member committee led by senior MP Mohan Singh would probe whether the Congress or any other party had a hand in Mr. Babbar's tirade against Mr. Singh. Rajya Sabha MP Shahid Sidiqqui and Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav's son, Akhilesh Yadav, who is a Lok Sabha MP, are other members of the panel.

    Mr. Babbar's suspension came after he launched a fresh attack against Mr. Singh on Tuesday, accusing him of promoting "broker" culture and weakening the "secular" credentials of the party. The suspension letter was issued by leader of the Parliamentary Party Ramgopal Yadav, who later said the Lok Sabha Speaker was informed about the decision.

    `Baseless' charges


    In his letter, Prof. Yadav is reported to have told Mr. Babbar that his charges against Mr. Singh were "baseless" and amounted to "an act of indiscipline." He also suggested that Mr. Babbar's statements were made at the behest of the Congress.


    Maybe it was his organizing the protest against Bush that really got him suspended?

    ReplyDelete
  186. The Scandinavians seem to stack up rather well, actually.

    Actually, the Scandinavians are dying out and will completely disappear in a few short generations. The Scandinavian socialist pipe-dream has devolved into a miasma of abortion and euthanasia, resulting in birthrates so low that the only possible way the Swedes and others will be able to sustain their overbloated state welfare system is by massive immigration. These immigrants, coming mostly from muslim nations, and who breed at four times the rate of the indolent Swedes, will overtake them in population within 50 years. This pattern is seen in other European countries as well.

    The future is bleak indeed for the Scandinavians, and those who tout their system as "stacking up quite well" are simply ignorant of the facts.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous8:31 AM

    So what's wrong with that...

    other than it would be a blow to "white power".

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  188. At what cost is this war no longer worth it to you? My war support limit was $100 Big ones and a thousand dead in exchange for a democratic and stable Iraq. Since we’re now way past that I’m here protesting with the “fever swamp left”. Buckley’s war support limit appears to have been crossed, what’s yours?

    The United States will win the Iraq war. The resolve of the president and his team is (and will remain) intact, and even his most ardent opponents have absolutely no alternative to the strategy of victory.

    The costs of this war in both lives and treasure, while considerable, are minor when compared to what would have occurred if Saddam Hussein had been to allowed to bribe and bully his way out from under the sanctions and inspection regime imposed upon him after the Gulf War. That eventuality, all but assured given what we know now about the "Oil-for-Food" program, would have resulted in a nuclear armed fascist dictator with messianic ambition and ruthless determination. The last time a similar tyrant wasn't stopped in time the costs were truly incalcuable....tens of millions of innocents dead, the world engaged in total war...destruction on a scale unimaginable by most who are alive today.

    I'm not surprised that so many here actually believe we are losing this war. We are not. The Kurds have a functioning, viable political culture. There is a political process in the Shiite and Sunni areas where none existed before. The Iraqi forces, although still nascent, are getting more capable every week. There is violence, yes, but nowhere near on the scale that existed under Saddam...with his scores of mass graves filled with hundreds of thousands of dead.

    I predict most of the naysayers here will, in twenty years' time, lie about their opposition to this war when asked by their children or grandchildren about it. They will pretend they didn't hate George Bush. But deep inside they'll know the truth, and there will be nothing available to expiate their shame.

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  189. Anonymous9:22 AM

    Retreat and defeat renders all of their sacrifices of blood and sweat to be in vain and gives victory to their and our enemies.

    That's the logic that resulted in the deaths of 58,000 Americans in Vietnam.

    The War in Iraq is over. Iran won.

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  190. Anonymous9:24 AM

    Gedaliya commits yet another logical fallacy:

    "...resulting in birthrates so low that the only possible way the Swedes and others will be able to sustain their overbloated state welfare system is by massive immigration."

    The fallacy is that this should be preceded by the caveat: "If current trends continue..."

    Of course they never do.

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  191. Anonymous9:29 AM

    To Gedaliya:

    Where can I get my set of official "Karl Rove Talking Points"?

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  192. Anonymous9:56 AM

    Gedaliya-another member of the non-reality based community.

    Let's turn that pigs ear into a silk purse gedaliya.

    Everything is grand in Iraq, we'll win, Bush is an intellectual genius that can do no wrong, and pigs will fly.

    Everyday is sunny and the flowers are always blooming in BushLand. Forget the deficit and those facts that seem to denigrate the triumphs of W the magnificent, are merely the rantings of a liberal media jealous of W's success. God what a laugh!

    I can't help but wonder which parallel universe Gedaliya is living in and how she/he manages to post in ours.

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  193. Anonymous10:58 AM

    Outstanding article. Nuff said

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  194. When I openly accepted responsibility for all the the good and bad results of my support of the Iraq War, I got the expected namecalling and "I'm going to hold my breath until you go away posts.

    It was also no surprise to me that nearly none of you actually challenged my extensive and annotated list of benefits to liberating Iraq.

    However, I notice that not a single one of the war opponents here is willing to accept their responsibility for the results of their opposition to the war.

    To oppose the liberation is to support reinstating Saddam, the police state, the mass graves, the torture chambers, the WMD programs, the terrorist sanctuaries, the 10,000 Iraqis dying each year from sanctions and to condemn the surviving Iraqis to slavery and fear.

    The reason we are talking about the conservative principle of personal responsibility is because that principle is lost on most leftists.

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  195. Anonymous11:37 AM

    It was also no surprise to me that nearly none of you actually challenged my extensive and annotated list of benefits to liberating Iraq.

    You're right... I didn't challenge any points in your list. In fact, I reprinted them. Then I pointed out that you could be proud of this list if you were Ahmed Chalabi (or working for him). Considering all those benefits to Iraq were purchased with American lives and treasure makes Chalabi very proud of what he's accomplished.

    If you're an American, on the other had, you should be ashamed of yourself at the least. I consider you a traitor to our country.

    [The benefits you claim for America are illusory, for the most part.]

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  196. Anonymous11:40 AM

    I love it when the Moonbats squeal in fear.

    "I predict most of the naysayers here will, in twenty years' time, lie about their opposition to this war when asked by their children or grandchildren about it. They will pretend they didn't hate George Bush. But deep inside they'll know the truth, and there will be nothing available to expiate their shame."

    One day, honor will be restored to the White House.

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  197. "...most prominent Democrats were bullied and intimidated into supporting the invasion of Iraq by a combination of Bush’s sky-high popularity and accusations of subversiveness which were launched at anyone who opposed the Leader’s war."

    This is pretty funny in a piece on taking responsibility and shifting blame!


    I don't believe that it shifts blame away from the pro-war Democrats to observe that many of them supported the war out of fear of their own political future rather than a genuine belief in the war. If anything, I think that makes them more blameworthy, not less.

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  198. I don't believe that it shifts blame away from the pro-war Democrats to observe that many of them supported the war out of fear of their own political future rather than a genuine belief in the war.

    On October 10, 2001, the House voted 296-133 in favor of the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF: Public law 107-243, 116 Stat. 1497-1502). The next day, the Senate voted in favor of the AUMF by a vote of 77-23.

    How many of the Democrats who voted for the AUMF did so "out of fear of their own political future rather than a genuine belief in the war"? Can you name one? And if you can, please provide the evidence for your assertion.

    Thanks.

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  199. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Can you name one?

    John Kerry.

    And if you can, please provide the evidence for your assertion.

    Don't be ridiculous. If they voted out of fear for their political future do you think they'd go around admitting it? Try to distinguish a statement of belief from one of fact.

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