Wednesday, February 01, 2006

Learning from Dear Leader

(updated below - updated again, several times)

(updated one last time to reflect that the Capitol Police admit they made a mistake because Sheehan broke no laws or rules)

I disagree with lots of things which Cindy Sheehan says but if the circumstances of her arrest last night at the State of the Union speech are anything like what she describes them as being (h/t Lis Riba), then her arrest is completely disgraceful.

I tend to believe her account because most of the facts she recites don't seem to be in dispute, and the accounts in the major news organizations, which apparently interviewed the law enforcement agencies involved in the arrest, are reporting much the same thing. In essence, Sheehan sat in her seat, took her jacket off, and was wearing a t-shirt which read: "2245 Dead. How many more?" As soon as she took her jacket off, she was pulled out of her seat, arrested, and taken out of the hall.

This is nothing more than a naked attempt to stifle dissent and to create a criticism-free bubble around George Bush. Presidents routinely use all sorts of propagandistic imagery at the State of the Union to decorate their speeches with an aura of regal patriotism. We always see weeping widows and military heroes and symbolic guests of all sorts who are used as props and visuals to bolster the President's message both emotionally and psychologically. The State of the Union speech is hardly free of visual messages and propaganda of that sort; quite the contrary.

But we apparently now have a country where the only ideas allowed to be expressed in our Nation's Capitol while the President is speaking are ones which glorify the Government and its Leader and where dissenting views are prohibited and will subject someone to arrest. Message cleansing of that sort belongs at a political rally in North Korea, not in Washington, DC.

There have been stories here and there of the Secret Service and other federal government agencies exercising the police power of the state for no purpose other than to stifle dissent. Virtually every appearance of George Bush is meticulously and vigilantly staged to ensure that he is surrounded only by agreement and adoration and almost never dissent of any kind.

This is plainly unhealthy and disgustingly contrary to every defining core American value. Our leaders aren't entitled to reverence and worship and aren't supposed to want it. Criticism, dissent and divergence of opinion are things which the founders did everything possible to foster, and the idea that someone is dragged out of a speech by the President for silently and peacefully wearing an anti-war t-shirt is disgraceful and embarrassing.

And these attacks on dissent are particularly ironic given that they occurred in the midst of a speech by a President who loves to lecture the world on the virtues of liberty and who holds himself out as the Chief Crusader for freedom and democracy.

In fact, as Cindy Sheehan was being dragged out of the Royal Speech, His Majesty was regaling us with the importance of respecting civil debate, the virtues of diversity and freedom, and the need to protect minority views. It's as if there was some universal force that wanted to provide the most compelling demonstration possible of how disingenuous his speech was, and came up with the idea of having Cindy Sheehan dragged out of the hall for doing nothing other than wearing a t-shirt politely expressing criticism of Bush's war.

UPDATE: The law is clear that Sheehan did nothing illegal and there was no legal basis whatsoever for removing and arresting her for wearing that t-shirt.

In Bynum v. U.S. Capitol Police Bd. (Dist. D.C. 1997) (.pdf), the District Court found the regulations applying 140 U.S.C. § 193 -- the section of the U.S. code restricting activities inside the Capitol -- to be unconstitutional on First Amendment grounds. Bynum involved a Reverend who was threatened with arrest by Capitol Police while leading a small group in prayer inside the Capitol. The Capitol Police issued that threat on the ground that the praying constituted a "demonstration."

That action was taken pursuant to the U.S. Code, in which Congress decreed as follows: "It shall be unlawful for any person or group of persons wilfully and knowingly . . . to parade, demonstrate or picket within any Capitol Building." 140 U.S.C. § 193(f)(b)(7).

As the Bynum court explained: "Believing that the Capitol Police needed guidance in determining what behavior constitutes a 'demonstration,' the United States Capitol Police Board issued a regulation that interprets 'demonstration activity,'" and that regulation specifically provides that it "does not include merely wearing Tee shirts, buttons or other similar articles of apparel that convey a message. Traffic Regulations for the Capitol Grounds, § 158" (emphasis added).

Nothing Sheehan did could even be remotely construed to constitute a "demonstration." She was sitting quietly in her seat wearing a t-shirt, an activity which is expressly excluded from the activities prohibited by this statute and, in any event, could not possibly be criminalized consistent with the First Amendment. We don't have a system of government -- at least we didn't used to -- where someone can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that expresses criticism of the President.

Isn't that just the most basic political value that we have? What kind of Americans sit idly and passively by while they watch a fellow citizen arrested and removed from the Capitol during a political speech for doing nothing other than wearing an anti-war t-shirt?

UPDATE II: If you are someone still in need of dispositive proof that Michelle Malkin is one of the most un-American, liberty-hating, disturbing creatures around, please see this rancid post of hers (h/t Mahablog) where she calls for Rep. Lynn Woolsey to be barred from inviting anyone to such speeches in the future because someone she invited wore a t-shirt which was critical of The Leader.

UPDATE III: Apparently, there were some actions taken at the State of the Union speech which -- despite clearly constituting "demonstrations" (which, unlike t-shirts, are actually prohibited by the U.S. Code) -- were allowed and apparently encouraged:




(The top photo, showing grown men wiggling their purple-ink-stained fingers around in the air, was apparently depicting a demonstration from last year's State of the Union speech. None of the participants in the Purple Fingered Dance Demonstration were arrested or asked to leave).

UPDATE IV: Steve Benen at The Carpetbagger Report has compiled some of the numerous, disturbing incidents where individuals have been banned, and often removed, from Bush speeches because they wore t-shirts expressing anti-Bush views.

As I said in Comments, I would be less inclined to become agitated over this incident if it weren't for the fact that there is a long line of similar incidents where the Administration has clearly taken steps to prevent the President from being exposed to dissent of any type. The White House goes to great lengths to ensure that the Commander-in-Chief appears only with the most regal and glorifying imagery and sloppy, unplanned political messages conflict with that propagandistic stage-managing and are thus expressly prohibited.

UPDATE V: The Capitol Police are dropping all charges against Sheehan because, as they admit, they never should have removed or arrested her because she broke no laws or rules:


WASHINGTON - Charges against antiwar protester Cindy Sheehan, who was arrested after an incident involving a T-shirt she wore to the State of the Union address, will be dropped, officials told NBC News Wednesday. . . .

But Capitol Police will ask the U.S. attorney's office to drop the charges, NBC News’ Mike Viqueira reported Wednesday.

“We screwed up,” a top Capitol Police official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said Sheehan didn't violate any rules or laws.


It also appears that they removed Congressman Young's wife only because they were aware that if they failed to, they would be accused of unequal treatment:

Beverly Young was sitting about six rows from first lady Laura Bush and was asked to leave. She argued with police in the hallway outside the House chamber.

“They said I was protesting,” she told the St. Petersburg Times. “I said, ‘Read my shirt, it is not a protest.’ They said, ‘We consider that a protest.’ I said, ‘Then you are an idiot.”’

They told her she was being treated the same as Sheehan, who was ejected before the speech. Sheehan had wrote in her blog Wednesday that she intended to file a First Amendment lawsuit.

I still find the whole episode rather disturbing and suspicious. It is crystal clear that the law does not and cannot prohibit the wearing of t-shirts with political messages in the Capitol because t-shirts do not constitute a "protest" or a "demonstration." The Capitol Police's own rules say that expressly and a federal district court has held that the First Amendment does not permit the law to be applied so as to bar non-disruptive conduct.

The Capitol Police officers who removed and arrested Sheehan had to have known that. An after-the-fact apology and admission of wrongdoing, while nice, does not really remedy the misconduct, which still seems vaguely intentional and motivated both by the identity of the person arrested and her message.

And it is still unclear, to put it generously, why Sheehan -- who apparently complied with the request to leave -- was arrested and detained for four hours, while Young, who argued bitterly with the Police and even called the officers "idiots," was simply asked to leave and not arrested. All of this is such a significant story primarily because there is a long line of events under the Bush Administration where people with dissenting opinions are thrown out of public events and divergent views are kept far away from the Commander-in-Chief. This incident grew out of that climate and is clearly a part of it.

180 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:42 PM

    Wow - you obvoiusly feel pretty passionately about this. Guess it must be your First Amendment background. I hadn't really given it much thought or thought it particularly important. Idon't really like Cindy. But after reading your post, I agree it is pretty disturbing.

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  2. Anonymous12:49 PM

    Let's not forget the new provision in the Patriot act that purportedly calls for up to 5 years in prison for failure to retreat to a "free speech zone" when someone important is in your area.

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  3. Anonymous12:59 PM

    All of the United States is a free speech zone, or at least that's what I thought.

    This is ridiculous and embarrassing behavior by this administration.

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  4. Anonymous1:04 PM

    Any idea what the law is on this? Seems like an unusual situation. The House chamber and its gallery are not public forums like the sidewalk outside, but they are public facilities, and the business they're designed for -- including the giving of SOTUs -- is in no way impeded by people wearing t-shirts with messages on them.

    I hope Sheehan fights the ticket or whatever and has a good 1st Amendment lawyer. Or is the law settled on this sort of thing?

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  5. Today arrest Cindy's Tshirt, tomorrow arrest blogs. There is no protection without civil liberties.

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  6. Anonymous1:19 PM

    I think it's legal for her to wear the t-shirt, so I disagree with her being arrested. I'm not sure they had the right to remove her for it either. But honestly, as much as I dislike this Administration and its policies, and as much as I respect Sheehan's message and right to dissent, the SOTU was not the place to do this. I hope people can agree with that.

    That being said, it is remarkable hypocrisy on the part of the President to make such comments while dissent is being prosecuted at the very same time.

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  7. Anonymous1:20 PM

    This isn't a Bush-specific law that the Capitol police enforce; they have enforced it for a long time, and it includes t-shirts. The law prohibits sloganeering, demonstrating etc on the capitol grounds, and an anti-Clinton demonstrator once got nabbed, too

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  8. Anonymous1:47 PM

    T-shirts and Buttons are excluded from the definition of "demonstration activity".

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  9. and an anti-Clinton demonstrator once got nabbed, too

    The only news account I could find about that (I certainly don't consider your Drudge link a "news account") is a short article from the NY Daily News (you have to buy it to see it), which reported that the Clinton protestor was removed because the content of his t-shirt was vulgar and people felt threatened by it "(Clinton doesn't inhale, he sucks").

    Clearly, there was no attempt there to stifle dissent or shield the President from criticism. Clinton wasn't even present and the proceeding was his impeachment trial. He was nothing but criticized there. Nonetheless, I don't think that he should have been removed, but it's a different case.

    The primary reason is because had this been one aberrational incident, I probably would be inclined to overlook it, but it is simply part and parcel of a long and disturbing attempt by this Administration to manipulate every image near the President, ensure that he never has to be near or confront disagreement, and to turn dissent into a form of criminal activity.

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  10. Anonymous1:55 PM

    Would this be a felony under the new provision in the Patriot Act?

    Certainly the State of the Union speech would be covered under that provision.

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  11. Anonymous2:01 PM

    The passivity with which the United States citizenry has accepted this government’s actions is appalling. For me the picture is stunningly clear. We’re loosing the simplest of rights and being prodded like cattle into conformist behaviors that sanction the subversive behaviors of a president and a party that should stun one into speechlessness.

    Corruption and deception have permeated every aspect of our government and the banal complicity with which the American public accept this is frightening. George Orwell’s totalitarian government with its petty stupidity and oppressive manipulations are staring us in the face. It’s like looking in a fun house mirror only to find the reflection shows a nation of people in chains…mentally and physically.

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  12. An ironist could have a field day with this. Or maybe a field trip. A long strange place to a place called Freedomland

    How pathetic! Clearly when tee shirts are outlawed, only outlaws will wear tee shirts TM.

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  13. Over on the right side of the blogosphere they've created a fact free zone. She was disruptive. she was unfurling a banner. etc.

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  14. Anonymous2:25 PM

    I'm not defending the law at issue, or how the capitol police enforce it. But I know that when I went with an activist group to DC well before the Bush 43 Admin, we were all advised by the organizers not to festoon ourselves with buttons or t-shirts if we went into the Senate gallery and stuff.

    The best I can determine is that the capitol police keep their eyes out for attempts to "demonstrate" that are suggested by a t-shirt(s). While the law exempts t-shirts as being de facto evidence of demonstration activity, the capitol police have sometimes objected when they suspect the wearer is trying to accomplish demonstration activity with the shirt. (After all, I could wear a sign -- my whole group of activists could -- and so claim to be within the law.)

    In any event, I know this t-shirt thing has been an issue for a long time, well before Cindy. (But I would add, that John Cole is now wondering if the anti-Clinton demonstrator story at Drudge is accurate. It rings a bell for me, tho.)

    The whole law may be overly restrictive and unconstitutional. I just know it isn't new as applied to Sheehan. My guess is that as this story continues we will get more examples of t-shirt wearers being asked to cover up or leave by the capitol police.

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  15. Anonymous2:38 PM

    And what kind of media do we have in this country that this was not the major story of the SOTU speech.

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  16. Anonymous2:41 PM

    My only complaint about the Cindy Sheehan thing was that she didn't trip a fall down a flight of stairs while being removed from the Capitol Building.

    Well maybe next time....


    Says the "Dog"

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  17. Anonymous2:45 PM

    Oh the horror! A mild protest (which consisted entirely of wearing a t-shirt with the number of those killed in an increasingly pointless and insane war) at the Potemkin policy lecture of the State of the Union?

    How can the republic survive such intemperate hostility? Sheehan stated more facts on one dumb t-shirt than a President addressing an entire country in a long speech — and she should be embarrassed?

    So long as most Americans can't actually address the President without passing a loyalty test, having their questions vetted or, evidently, being a gay prostitute, the SOTU seems to be the only place to even register a complaint against our dauphin in chief.

    Republicans (and most Democrats) are so fucking terrified of the truth and reality that our 'national' debate exists solely of competing sound bytes and dancing around the obvious.

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  18. Anonymous2:54 PM

    Steve, I hope you're being ironic in that statement...

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  19. RE: Malkin

    She also had a recent post about nationwide protesters of the SOTU address being "moonbats." See, in Michelle-think, if you exercise your first amendment right to peaceably assemble and protest, then you're a moonbat.

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  20. Anonymous3:03 PM

    thanks.

    i read in the paper this morning about sheehan and i was thinking the same thoughts you write about:

    this is purely stifling of dissent. it has been occurring since bush became president, as some of the articles you cite detail.


    the secret service is being used as speech police because their activities can always be fobbed off on the mainstream media as acting "in the president's welfare". personally, i thhink it is one of the obligations of the office of president that the president bear the risk of interacting with citizens.



    as with deborah howell and james brady's attempt to discredit legitimate critics of wapo a couple of weeks ago, the admin will almost certainly try to put the onus on protesters, arguing that they lacked "civility", "good manners", "proper respect for the office", blah, blah, blah. doing so is a standard tactic of speech repression.

    i think the bush adminstration is going to keep repressing until there is some sort of explosion on the streets. i don't know when it will come, but i sense we are getting closer and closer.

    only when people take to the streets of washington in the thousands to protest the numerous restrictions of speech this administration has taken will rove/cheney/bush began to curtail their abuse of power.

    that abuse of power involves curtailing speech purely for political public relations purposes, specifically, so that it will not appear that there is any opposition to the president's policies. the principle is to make a strong example out of the first few and hope the many are intimidated. this is the stuff of incipient tyranny.

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  21. It IS part and parcel of their entire campaign and agenda - whatever the venue. And, as you note:

    "The primary reason is because had this been one aberrational incident, I probably would be inclined to overlook it, but it is simply part and parcel of a long and disturbing attempt by this Administration to manipulate every image near the President, ensure that he never has to be near or confront disagreement, and to turn dissent into a form of criminal activity."

    Froomkin (Michael, not Dan) wrote about this one in N Dakota: with the same conclusions and issues - nearly a year ago.

    " Fargo City Commissioner Linda Coates is among more than 40 area residents included on a list of people barred from attending President Bush’s speech today in Fargo.

    Among the 42 area people on the do-not-admit list: two high school students, a librarian, a Democratic campaign manager and several university professors.

    White House spokesman Jim Morrell and Don Larson, a spokesman for the North Dakota governor’s office, say they don’t know anything about such a list.

    “This is the first I’m hearing of it,” Morrell said when contacted Wednesday.

    But two sources close to Tuesday’s ticket distribution confirmed the list exists and includes a handful of names of people who were not to receive tickets to today’s event at North Dakota State University’s Bison Sports Arena.

    The list was supplied to workers at the two Fargo distribution sites, along with tickets and other forms citizens were asked to fill out upon receiving them. People who handed out tickets had copies of the list at their tables to determine if anyone should be denied access, both sources said.

    The list contains a wide range of people. Several wrote opinion page letters to The Forum criticizing Bush or the war in Iraq. Others wrote letters in support of gay rights or of Democratic policies."


    and the signing of "loyalty oaths" required by Cheney during the 2004 GOP campaign season.

    Some folks don't like throwing around the words *Un-American* and so forth. But what else can you call activity like this? Activity so completely antithetical to our entire Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Freedom of Speech, Government of the People, One nation for all? If not Un-American...what is it?

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  22. Anonymous3:18 PM

    Bravo Cindy . . what better place than the SOTU to demonstrate that freedom of speech does not exist in America.

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  23. Anonymous3:19 PM

    It wasn't just Sheehan last night.

    To excerpt:

    Beverly Young, wife of Rep. C.W. Bill Young of Florida — chairman of the House Defense Appropriations subcommittee — was removed from the gallery because she was wearing a T-shirt that read, “Support the Troops — Defending Our Freedom.”
    “Because she had on a shirt that someone didn’t like that said support our troops, she was kicked out of this gallery,” Young said on the House floor Wednesday morning, holding up the gray shirt.

    “Shame, shame,” he scolded.
    Mrs. Young was sitting about six rows from first lady Laura Bush and asked to leave. She argued with police in the hallway outside the House chamber.
    “They said I was protesting,” she told the St. Petersburg Times. “I said, ‘Read my shirt, it is not a protest.’ They said, ‘We consider that a protest.’ I said, ‘Then you are an idiot.”

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  24. This sort of thing goes back before George W. Bush, unfortunately. In 1987, at an outdoor public event celebrating the bicentennial celebration of the Constitution -- I kid you not -- held in the mall in front of Independence Hall right next to the Liberty Bell, individuals were excluded because they were wearing T-shirts and buttons that said things like "U.S. out of El Salvador." (More details available in Pledge of Resistance v. We the People 200, Inc., 665 F.Supp. 414 (E.D.Pa. 1987) (alas I couldn't find a web version of the case).) If memory serves, then Vice-President George H.W. Bush was the featured speaker at this event (which was organized, by the way, by We the People 200, an entity led by Chief Justice Warren Burger). So there's a great (family) tradition behind this kind of respect for the Constitution . . . .

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  25. Ah, remember the old story of how if you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water he will jump out, but if you put a frog into a pot of cold water and then turn on the stove, you can slowly bring the pot to a boil, the frog won't notice until HE'S COOKED!

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  26. Anonymous3:21 PM

    I saw on MSNBC this morning that the wife of a Republican Congressman also was asked to leave or something (not arrested) for wearing a t-shirt that said "Support Our Troops."

    Interesting.

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  27. Anonymous3:21 PM

    Thanks for the update, Glenn.

    In light of the Police Board guidance, it seems to me that Sheehan might have a good sec. 1983 claim -- a nice vehicle for getting this into court and getting some attention to the incident and the broader issue. (I'm assuming that charges against her will be dropped. If they're not, she can get the issue into court that way, too.)

    I'm not a big Cindy Sheehan fan, but this is not a trivial issue. I really hope she gets some good legal support on this. ACLU, are you listening?

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  28. Anonymous3:25 PM

    From Malkin:
    Did she also supply tickets to Code Pink protesters last year?
    I find it interesting in Malkin's screed that she sets the stage for one of the more frequently used tactics in fashion with her set, judging individuals or groups she is in disagreement with through innuendo. Always an attempt to assign guilt.

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  29. Anonymous3:27 PM

    Glenn,

    Sorry for the link to Fox News, but this story slipped under the radar during the Alito debates and seems relevent:

    Specter seeks to limit speech at any "special event of national significance"

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  30. Hey folks:

    Doesn't matter whether or not you "think" the SOTU is a place for protest or political statements or whatever.

    The question is whether or not what happened to Sheehan is legal.

    It wasn't. End of story.

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  31. Anonymous3:27 PM

    This is very disturbing indeed...for anyone having trouble understanding where our nation is headed take a close look at Sec. 605 of the Patriot Act. I can only hope that this is one of the reasons why it's on hold right now from being reauthorized. That section calls for the establishment of the USSSUD (The US Secret Service Uniformed Division) Is that scary or what!? I suppose we saw what those uniformed units will be responsible for with the actions that transpired last night.

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  32. Anonymous3:27 PM

    anon:

    Maybe that's their way of being 'balanced' -- kicking people out for slight, petty reasons across the board. Of course, the yellow ribbon brigade and the flag stickpin commandos — making the same statement — are exempt.

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  33. Anonymous3:28 PM

    I have to agree with the commenters who frown on showing disagreement or dissent from within the halls of congress during the sotu.

    the president is our leader, and the congress was not created to express disagreement with the president. everyone should simply sit quietly and applaud when the president pauses for applause. or they can stand and applaud. that's ok too.

    seriously, folks, do you want the president to pass out and bump his head because he sees a gesture of dissent? he had trouble eating pretzels without fainting. we don't need that kind of hazard at the sotu.

    you can talk quietly amongst yourselves when the president is not in the room. but when he shows up, everyone please stifle dissent. what kind of free-speech-based democracy do you think we're running here?

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  34. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Hypatia
    The anti-Clinton t-shirt had 'graphic' language on it. Big difference.

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  35. Anonymous3:48 PM

    Look folks, I’m about as near to a First Amendment absolutist as they come, but something about this rush to make a martyr of Cindy and to depict Bush as uniquely stifling of free speech, doesn’t sit right with me. There was a campaign planned to “drown out” Bush’s speech, and Sheehan had been active in that purposely noisy demonstration before the SOTU.

    Further: Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq, opened her jacket to reveal a T-shirt that, according to a supporter, gave the number of U.S. war dead and asked, "How many more?"
    She was also vocal, said U.S. Capitol Police Chief Terrance W. Gainer, and after she ignored instructions to close her jacket and quiet down, she was led out and arrested. Demonstrating in the House gallery is prohibited.


    Unless Chief Gainer is lying or misinformed (and a mere Bush toady), Cindy was continuing the demonstration and trying to “drown out Bush” in the gallery. That, if true, is not mere speech.

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  36. Anonymous3:48 PM

    I personally find this ridiculous and dangerous. A tee shirt is grounds for removal? Hmmm, but a sea of purple fingers is alright though??

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  37. Anonymous3:48 PM

    I was wondering if any in Congress might have a reaction to this happening on their turf.

    (I mean this politically, not in terms of who the police in question actually report to.)

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  38. Anonymous3:54 PM


    The anti-Clinton t-shirt had 'graphic' language on it. Big difference


    For purposes of the First Amendment, it does not matter -- not if there is no violation of reasonable, viewpoint neutral, time , place and manner restrictions. Indeed, long-settled S. Ct. precedent holds that you cannot be prevented form wearing a "Fuck the draft" t-shirt in a courthouse.

    The issue is whether Cindy and the Congressman's wife could reasonably be described as demonstrating in the House gallery during the SOTU. Not whether their alleged demonstration language was graphic or not.

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  39. Anonymous4:00 PM

    I just love how this stuff is beamed all around the world and makes a complete mockery of the administration's stated aims of bringing freedom and democracy to other nations. They're not even ensuring the freedoms of our own nation.
    I think if I was an Iraqi, I'd probably be joining the insurgency. After all, 'better the devil you know.'

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  40. Anonymous4:02 PM

    In my opinion, Cindy should consult a lawyer and if they conclude that she didn't in fact break any laws, they should pursue every legal remedy at their disposal. Specifically, at least sue that police force for wrongful arrest, so that others may wear tee-shirts inside the capitol building. Perhaps during the discovery phase the motivations behind the arrest can be investigated (i.e., did someone at the top order the police to violate the law).

    If a group of organizations conspire to break the law, and in fact do break the law, couldn't charges be filed per RICO?

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  41. Anonymous4:10 PM

    First of all, you must be of the belief that "2,245 Dead. How many more?" is an anti-Bush statement.
    IS it? Or is it an anti-WAR statement? Is it anti-anything at all? It is just a simple statement of fact.

    Second, simply wearing a T-shirt with a statement must be considered “unlawful conduct” as that was what Sheehan was arrested, handcuffed, driven to a police station, booked, and detained for 4 hours for.
    (For more on the “unlawful conduct” of wearing a T-shirt, see the 1971 Supreme Court decision of Cohen v. California. The SC ruled that it was unconstitutional to arrest a man who wore a "FUCK the Draft" T-shirt into a courthouse. Nuff said, even for someone without a law degree or who is in law enforcement, unless your part of a fascist government).

    Which brings me to my third point. Webster’s definition of Fascism is a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    Whether you agree with Sheehan’s stance or not, the quashing of dissent and free speech in one fell swoop should have all of you questioning this government.

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  42. Anonymous4:10 PM

    Gary,
    I agree. Why don't you file a lawsuit. I'll donate.

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  43. Anonymous4:11 PM

    Regarding JYD's efforts at morphing into Thomas Paine above, I give you the first sentence from the Dawg's post, courtesy of the Puppy's blog, on President Bush's State of the Union speech last night.

    "I thought the President made a very good delivery of his speech, and I liked about 1/2 of the substance that I heard."

    JYD: "I thought the President made a very good delivery..."

    Question: Of what? Kittens? Puppies? The mail? A pizza?

    JYD: "I liked about 1/2 of the substance that I heard."

    Question: How does the human ear receive substance? Or were you merely refering to ear wax?

    JYD, a graduate of the Rod Paige School of the Amerikin' Language.

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  44. Anonymous #?

    You say (jokingly I think)

    "I have to agree with the commenters who frown on showing disagreement or dissent from within the halls of congress during the sotu.

    the president is our leader, and the congress was not created to express disagreement with the president. everyone should simply sit quietly and applaud when the president pauses for applause. or they can stand and applaud. that's ok too."


    If it's about not ruffling his limited train of thought and applause lines. If a choreagraphed performance is what wants why not give it from the Privacy of his Oval Office with all the trappings he likes.

    Or he can go back to doing what other Presidents have done- MAIL IT IN. And then NO one has to suffer for his art. (*snark*)

    But even so...that IS not the issue, but rather it is about arresting someone for wearing a Tee-shirt and forcibly removing them - is this LEGAL? NO!

    How I'd LOVE to see this whole bAdmin go down in fire-ball of Rule of Law!!!

    (and yep I HATES these folks with the intensity of a thousand white hot super novas - but ask me some time *what I really think*. Hahahaha!)

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  45. Anonymous4:15 PM

    The SOTU was the perfect place for Cindy to do this. What the hell is so special about this speech? Its the 6th time Dubya has done one and in every one of those speeches he talks about how strong the state of the union is. Cindy is a perfect example of how our union is NOT strong and how more than half the people in this country do not beleive in this president and his administration. Cindy being arrested shows us how we are not free in this country. Its Just A T-Shirt,no matter what is printed on it, Its Just A T-Shirt. Why do people call Cindy a wako? She has the courage to stand up against the war and this administration, and that makes her a wacko? Dubya lied to the country and then invaded Irag, but he's not a wacko?

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  46. I just asked this on my own blog but are there any photos of the rest of the gallery attendees?

    Any other t-shirt wearers in the audience, to confirm or deny viewpoint-based discrimination?

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  47. Unless Chief Gainer is lying or misinformed (and a mere Bush toady), Cindy was continuing the demonstration and trying to “drown out Bush” in the gallery.

    She was removed before Bush's speech even started -- apparently well before it. They're going to have to come up with a different excuse than that. It's a little hard to "drown out" a speech that hasn't started yet.

    And while it's true that Mrs. Young was barred from wearing her t-shirt, she was only politely requested to leave, not arrested and detained for four hours.

    But unquestionably, both incidents are not just wrong, but lawless and in violation of the First Amendment. A District Court has already ruled that non-disruptive behavior cannot be barred by the Capitol under the First Amendment, and it is well-settled that a mere t-shirt expressing a viewpoint is not "disruptive," nor can it be reasonably viewed that way. For that reason, the Capitol Police's own regulations expressly exclude t-shirts from what constitutes "disruptions."

    And this isn't about Cindy Sheehan. It's about the fact that the Bush Administration continuously engages in measures to create a distinctly un-American opinion-free zone around him. There are multiple examples of this. This is a climate which they've created and it's oppressive and, in this case, clearly illegal.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous4:30 PM

    David Porter: the "fuck the draft" case is not enough said.

    Cohen v. California was not a time, place and manner case. It doesn’t control whether it is permissible to demonstrate in the House gallery. It resolved only that the words like "fuck” cannot be excluded from the universe of protected speech – and is why the commenter who thinks the anti-Clinton demonstrator’s t-shirt is a distinguishable case from Sheehan’s is wrong. The language issue is not a basis for distinction. Cohen holds:

    Appellant's conviction, then, rests squarely upon his exercise of the "freedom of speech" protected from arbitrary governmental interference by the Constitution and can be justified, if at all, only as a valid regulation of the manner in which he exercised that freedom, not as a permissible prohibition on the substantive message it conveys.

    Cohen does not address when speech can be cabined by time and place regulations.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous4:38 PM


    She was removed before Bush's speech even started -- apparently well before it. They're going to have to come up with a different excuse than that. It's a little hard to "drown out" a speech that hasn't started yet.


    Chief Gainer said she was being disruptive and was asked to quiet down. She had immeidately prior been part of the outdoors campaign to "drown out Bush." (A campaign organized for that purpose is not organized for speech that is protected.)

    Clearly, there is more to this story than little Cindy Sheehan just stepped out of a cab to run into the SOTU speech, planning to sit and merely listen, innocently wearing a t-shirt that was not -- oh, not at all -- part of any intention to demonstrate in the House gallery.

    Uh-huh. And pigs fly.

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  50. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Amusing that you can't post a comment on Malkins' blog.

    From sources that had seen Cindy earlier in the day, it is to be noted that she had worn the same shirt all day, and didn't actually decided to attend the SOTU untill just before it started, at about 8:45 or so.

    It wasn't even INTENDED as a protest, just a busy women, with not enough time to change clothes.

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  51. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Any American citizen who is arrested for political protest or speech of any kind should be proud.

    All of America's history is filled with brave citizens who were not afraid to speak their honest opinion, in spite of any threatened consequences.

    The meaning of the 1st amendment is clear as day to anyone's common sense, and no convoluted, lawyered-up, sophistic interpretation is going to matter to true patriots.

    If the law of the United States in 2006 restricts this type of speech, the law is in error. It violates natural law. It violates, in my honest opinion, God's law, which endows man with certain natural rights.

    Old: "Even a cat may look at a king."

    New: "Even a cat may wear a little knitted cat sweater (even if Grandma knitted a swear word or some numbers that make you uncomfortable!) in the presence of a king."

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous4:38 PM

    I don't understand Hypatia's reluctance to hop on board. The story is that Sheehan was arrested for wearing a t-shirt -- not for making too much noise. Of course they can remove you -- and I guess arrest you -- for causing a ruckus in the House gallery. That didn't happen here. The woman wore a t-shirt without even any bad words. For that she was arrested.

    Who cares whether you like Sheehan or not? Who cares whether you want to contribute to the (overdone) sense of Sheehan martyrdom. I don't either. But I'd like to be able to wear a t-shirt expressing dissent. I'd like to live in a country where a non-disruptive expression of dissent is protected under the law. I'd like to live in a country where a president cannot use the state to shunt dissenting citizens away from public view (without at least renting a private hall for an invitation-only event).

    I don't see how this is morally, legally, or politically complicated. The fucking t-shirt wasn't even rude. Are you buying into the idea that it is rude to express dissent silently when the president is talking? Are you buying that it is rude to interfere with a politician's use of the imagery of state for personal propagandistic value? What's so hard about this?

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous4:47 PM

    SOTU isn't the right place? On the contrary, it's the perfect place. It's the "state" of the union, and if the state is a state of dissent and discontent, than it is absolutly 100% the perfect place to do what she did.

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  54. Anonymous4:49 PM

    And about this: It's about the fact that the Bush Administration continuously engages in measures to create a distinctly un-American opinion-free zone around him. There are multiple examples of this.

    Some of the examples often cited about this involve private functions in which Bush opponents are not permitted. That is perfectly legal.

    Additionally, the Secret Service has a tough and important job. I don't think it is wrong to keep angry protestors -- left, right or anything else -- reasonably far away from whoever is President and is pissing protestors off.

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  55. Anonymous4:51 PM

    The President made it clear that we have to respect minority views and diversity. There , done. We don't need to actually HEAR any Minority views ( like the earth is round or that it circles the sun ) and we don't need to actually see intellectual diversity, the president mentioned that they exist and we should feel really touched that he thought of us on such a big night . He's done for us more than we deserved , he stated that we need to be tolerant of minority viewpoints ,and there you go . What , Mr. President , are the minority views? Oh , you agree we must permit them , just not what they actualy entail. Just none of the actual views , but that there are some and we must permit them .
    I hear a very popular minority view these days is to overhaul social security...seems big in the minority. That view gets expressed . Oh , and there's the way things are going great in Iraq. That's an idea we hear plenty from a Tiny minority.
    And an even smaller minority contend that listening to Americans without warrants is perfectly legal . Huh. Seems the minority are being heard loud and clear . Daily. Hourly in fact.

    Cindy Sheehan was arrested for being a voice of a silenced majority.

    ( Even if I like you disagree with some of her meathods and statements)

    Thanks W. I feel a LOT better.

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  56. Anonymous4:52 PM

    Yes, according to press reports, the wife of Republican was "ordered" to leave the gallery because she was wearing a "Support The Trooops" T-Shirt.

    A couple of observations:

    (1) In both cases, the women involved were deemed "demonstrators" because they wore T-shirts. However, only Sheehan was physically removed, and subsequently jailed.

    So not only do these Capital police morons not know the law, but they misapply it unequally.

    (2) I can't wait for Malkin to express her outrage over the treatment of the Representative's wife.

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  57. Anonymous4:58 PM

    Glenn, thanks heaps for the case law update. Your work is making you an online VIP. I just subscribed.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous5:03 PM

    Great post but...


    It's not "The Leader"

    It's "Dear Leader."

    That's how they do it in North Korea.

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  59. I don't think it is wrong to keep angry protestors -- left, right or anything else -- reasonably far away from whoever is President and is pissing protestors off.

    Expressing dissenting views does not make someone a security threat, at least not in the United States.

    People who show up to shoot Presidents traditionally don't don t-shirts announcing their opposition to the President, and it's unlikely that an Al Qeada operatives would be wearing anti-war t-shirts as well.

    The examples cited in the Carpetbagger posted linked in my post are indefensible and clearly are intended to do nothing other than ensure that the television cameras show The Commander-in-Chief surrounded by adoring throngs.

    Much of what the White House does to depict a glorified image of The President is creepy and cult-ish, and the way in which they cleanse any unruly opinions to achieve those goals is unconstitutional.

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  60. Anonymous5:08 PM

    Sheehan should have been not only arrested, but burned at the stake.

    Everyone knows that George Bush lost both those elections. The fact that he's president anyway proves that he was appointed by God.

    And anyone who opposes God must be put to death. Even Pat Robertson and Osama bin Laden will agree on that.

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  61. Anonymous5:09 PM

    John Cole's third update speaks for me as well. I know there is the case Glenn cited about t-shirts, and the bare language of the appplicable statute, but I also know that cannot be the end of the question. The capitol police keep doing this (and the anti-Clinton protestor story appears, now, to be accurate), so there has to be a reason why. D.C. has no dearth of civil rights attorneys, and activists are hardly litigation shy, and yet this practice continues. Clearly, the capitol police think they have the authority for it.

    And as for Sheehan being arrested, it appears she did not leave when asked to, and the Congressman's wife did. I'm just not inclined to believe that George Bush has nefarious control over the Capitol Police such that they suddenly are doing things they never did before, and only to Bush opponents.

    As I said, when I went with an activist band to D.C. quite a few years ago, the organizers told us not to deck out in buttons and things in the galleries.

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  62. Anonymous5:15 PM

    Man, I hope you research the case specifics in your litigation practice better than you did here.

    Bush has about as much to do with defining the parameters under which the Capitol Police operate as he does with picking out the towel colors in the Senatorial bathrooms. To quote the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Police_Board

    "The Capitol Police Board is a group of three members who have jurisdiction over the United States Capitol Police. The three members of this board are the Architect of the Capitol, the Senate Sergeant at Arms, and the House Sergeant at Arms".

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  63. Anonymous5:16 PM

    September 2005, the British Foreign Secretary was defending the Iraq War at his party conference in the UK.
    An 82-year-old party stalwart, who had been a refugee from Hitler's Germany, was sat at the back of the hall. He called out "Nonsense!", was immediately grabbed and bundled out of the hall by security, and was arrested (briefly) under the British equivalent of the Patriot Act.
    It was captured on camera, caused a huge stink in the press, and produced a grovelling apology from Blair and the party high command.
    The BBC has video here:
    - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4292342.stm
    - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4293502.stm

    It seems there's fat chance of anything similar happening in this case. Partly, as you sort of acknowledge, because Cindy Sheehan has shot her mouth off enough to be widely seen as fair game. And partly because this administration doesn't apologise for anything, ever.

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  64. Anonymous5:23 PM


    The examples cited in the Carpetbagger posted linked in my post are indefensible and clearly are intended to do nothing other than ensure that the television cameras show The Commander-in-Chief surrounded by adoring throngs.


    If it is a GOP-organized event, they have the right to prefer GOP supporters in terms of location. Ditto for Democrat events -- whether they elect the option, or not. Protestors who violate trespass laws commit a crime.

    I've always thought this argument was stupid. Of the many legitimate things to criticize George Bush for, castigating him for preferring his supporters at Republican events is just moronic.

    Further, I think you downplay that the Secret Service, whether it is protecting Bill Clinton or George Bush, should want to keep the protestors, when possible, clearly cordoned off from the rest of the crowd. Cops do this sort of thing all the time, like when the Klan and anti-Klan cohorts turn out. Keeping the two crowds separated is important to keeping the situation non-violent and under control.

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  65. Anonymous5:23 PM

    What's in store for next year's SOTU, just Republicans and Zell Miller allowed to attend?

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  66. Anonymous5:24 PM

    For the lawyers out there, the correct cite is Bynum v. U.S. Capitol Police Bd., 93 F.Supp.2d 50 (D.D.C. 2000).

    ReplyDelete
  67. An amazing analysis. I have to agree with you on this one.

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  68. Anonymous5:25 PM

    Conservatives like O'Reilly, Coulter, Savage, and Robertson, can call for violence on people, and have radio and television shows.

    Liberals like Cindy, who wear t-shirts protesting violence, get arrested.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Steve said:

    The State of the Union is really no place for exhibitions of political showmanship.

    You're right. "Cut his mike! Cut his mike!"

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous5:36 PM

    I think Hypatia is trending right as this discussion goes along. The secret service didn't remove Sheehan for being a threat to the physical safety of the president. The capitol cops removed her for "demonstrating" by wearing a non-vulgar t-shirt that raised a question about the cost of a war we are engaged in. Nor is there any indication that Sheehan was wearing her t-shirt in an especially "angry" way, so as to suggest she posed a danger.

    I've never heard anyone suggest that the secret service has the authority to remove any "angry protestor" from the vicinity of the president, merely because they are angry protestors. Maybe Malkin has suggested that, but it's a new one on me.

    Authorities routinely engage in practices that go unchallenged for a long time. That this has happened often in the past doesn't prove that there is legal authority for it -- and no one has produced any so far.

    If someone can present caselaw (or even an argument better than "just doesn't seem right that someone should muck up the president's big night by peacefully and silently expressing dissent") supporting the removal of Sheehan, then I'll be keen to read it.

    As for the legality of expelling people from private events: Of course it's legal -- however much it conflicts with the idea of a democracy founded on open debate. What is not legal -- I think -- is to use government money to pay for private political events from which the public is excluded. That's what Bush routinely did with his social security tour last year (including the Fargo event). Public money, private arena, citizens excluded on the basis that they belonged to the wrong party. It wasn't even that they wore t-shirts. They were Democrats, so they were banned from a political event paid for with government money.

    I don't know to what extent the capitol police receive or take guidance from the white house. It's hardly out of the question that the president's chief of staff would have a minion call the chief of the capitol police to request that the police are vigilant in preventing "demonstrations," including "silent demonstrations" like the wearing of a t-shirt.

    Regardless of whether the white house's fingerprints are on this individual incident, the incident is characteristic of the Bush MO. And one way or another, it is repellant.

    Enough mealy-mouthed apprehensiveness about criticizing the cops and Bush. Either come up with a real justification that makes sense in a democracy, or acknowledge that this was bullshit.

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  71. Cindy Sheehan had just arrived back in the States after her visit with Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan leader known for his "democratic socialist governance" and anti Bush rhetoric. Venezuela's foreign ministry reportedly sponsored Sheehan's visit. Yahoo! News.

    What I want to know is why she was allowed her to re-enter the U.S. She should have been deported back to Venezuela.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous5:43 PM

    Illegal? Sure. Illegal never stopped crooks, though. It's important to remember that there are really no limits a war criminal will respect.

    In the parallel world called Watergate, remember Nixon was re-elected after the break-in was exposed. What did him in was the coverup.

    Rove knows that, so there is no Wiretap coverup, just the bold assertions that Congress voted to give Bush omnipotence and if Bush says it's legal, it's legal.

    Things like this are merely the beginning. Things will get worse. Which leaves only one question to be answered...

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  73. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Equal protection under the law?

    Mrs. Young, the wife of a Republican Representative, was also ejected for wearing a Support Our Troops T-shirt. According to her own account, she gave the Capitol police an ear-full out in the hall.

    The different here is that Mrs. Sheehan was lead out in handcuffs and arrested. Mrs. Young was not.
    The Republicans are enraged at the treatment of Mrs. Young and think the action against Mrs. Sheehan was fully justified.

    Glenn, are you going to blog on this aspect? I would be interest to read what legal ramifications this does or does not have.

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  74. Anonymous5:50 PM

    That darn liberal media!

    Earlier this afternoon in New York, I tuned into WCBS 880 AM while Al Franken took a commercial break. Reporting on Sheehan's arrest, a CBS reporter claimed that Sheehan was removed from the gallery for wearing a t-shirt that featured a "bad slogan." "Bad"? Does it get any more subjective than that? Since CBS refused to repeat the "bad slogan," I assumed it included profanity. Imagine my surprise when I read later that the slogan was deemed offensive merely for its truth.

    When did the MSM turn into a slow-pitch softball league for the Bush administration?

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  75. Anonymous6:00 PM

    Excuse me, hypatia, but public forums on Social Security, paid for by the taxpayers, do not qualify as "Republican" events and there are numerous examples of people being barred from those.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous6:00 PM

    The Capitol Police are saying that Young was not ejected but left on her own:

    http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/APX/602010641

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  77. Anonymous6:01 PM

    It's not the t-shirt, it's not Cindy Sheehan. It's the PATTERN, folks. This is the scary thing. Our rights and freedoms are slowly being eroded and all you can do is argue back and forth on the tiny little fucking details. George Bush is not our king (yet, anyway) so let's focus on what really matters here.

    The Constitution of the United States, the one we all studied in school, is under attack because a certain segment of our society wants to be dictators.

    I agree with John B. It was a ridiculous and embarrassing behaviour by the Bushies, but it's just another crack in their armour.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous6:13 PM

    I really am amazed that so many think crowd security, and control of protestors, is some new concern of George Bush’s. Take a look at the elaborate preparations involving myriad law enforcement agencies, for the GOP ’96 convention in San Diego, and Pat Buchanan’s near-by convention. Protesters sued to get closer, but they didn’t get nearly as close as they wanted:


    * 4. Special protest groups within and outside of the party Anti-abortionists and pro-abortionists, homosexuals, Mexican activists, the handicapped and the homeless are among 65 groups that have received permits to demonstrate at the convention. The GOP and some security agencies wanted the protest site several blocks away from the center, but the protesters argued that it was too far and sued for First Amendment rights and won. The groups would have had a First Amendment right to protest on the sidewalk in front of the convention center, but a security plan calls for a buffer around the building. Now the site will be directly across from the convention center door but across a major highway. Another site is also allowed close to the hotels in the immediate area that are expected to house most of the primary delegates.


    Look folks, there are crazies on the left, and crazies on the right, and it is not some Bushitler innovation to want to control crowds of highly polarized ideologues.

    When the nice FBI or Secret Service man tells you to take your anti-{fill in the blank} sign to the approved area, you do it. Or get arrested.

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  79. Anonymous6:14 PM

    Many idiots here have offered something similar to the following:

    The different [sic] here is that Mrs. Sheehan was lead out in handcuffs and arrested. Mrs. Young was not.

    Mrs. Young left voluntarily when asked to by authorities. So she wasn't arrested. Cindy Sheehan, still not through making a mockery of her son's service for her own selfish and narcissistic self promotion refused to leave when asked to do so. After asking her to leave voluntarily several times, she was arrested.

    I could understand all this liberal outrage if she had been giving Clinton a blow job when she was thrown out, but this seems to hardly merit the level of foam spitting hysteria shown here by so many.

    Sheehan wanted to be arrested. She wasn't there to express a point of view. She was there to try and disrupt things and get her picture taken while shouting from the gallery.

    Her mistake was in wearing the T-Shirt that allowed her to be thrown out before she had a chance to interfere with the attendees and the country's right to hear what the President had to say in a peaceful mature environment.

    Sheehan's continuing dishonor of her son's service and obsessive narcissism resulted in her rejection by her husband, the son's father.

    It is quite disturbing that a support the troops shirt was not allowed at a time of war. Cindy Sheehan should be barred even if wearing a three-piece suit and a silence of the lambs mask.

    Says the "Dog"

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  80. Anonymous6:15 PM

    Limiting t-shirt speech is sad, but unfortunately not new to your country under George W. Bush (I'm Canadian).

    I recall reading in 2003 how a U.S. border guard refused entry to the U.S. to a 'Christian Peacemaker' member solely because he was sporting a peace sign on his shirt. Is that really a good reason to refuse someone entry to a free country? Oh yeah, border guards don't need a reason.

    I'm not surprised by the lack of free speech at the SOTU. I'm no sadder today about the state of free speech in the U.S. than in 2003, which, for the record, is disturbingly, dishearteningly, OUTRAGEOUSLY sad. Off the charts sad.

    Please restore integrity to the way U.S. citizens' votes are counted.

    Sincerely.

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  81. Anonymous6:16 PM

    Glenn, you set out the false premise that the Capitol Police were acting on behalf of President Bush. As someone wearing what could be construed as a pro-Bush tee shirt was also escorted from the room, your “logic,” speculative to begin with, completely falls apart like the prosecution’s case in a Perry Mason trial.

    You were wrong.

    It remains to be seen if you have the integrity to admit that fact.

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  82. Glenn, you set out the false premise that the Capitol Police were acting on behalf of President Bush.

    I said no such thing. If you excerpt what I wrote where I said that Bush has any control over the Capitol Police, I will admit error, but I said nothing of the kind.

    That's not to say that the Capitol Police weren't acting with the motive of preventing anyone from expressing any opinions beyond those which were pre-approved and pre-scripted. That is the climate which has been created by the Bush Administration for several years, as multiple examples prove, and this is clearly a part of that.

    Removal of someone from the Capitol for no reason other than wearing a T-Shirt is ILLEGAL. I know that Bush followers have grown accustomed to sanctioning violations of the law, but there are still some of us who find that improper.

    As someone wearing what could be construed as a pro-Bush tee shirt was also escorted from the room, your “logic,” speculative to begin with, completely falls apart like the prosecution’s case in a Perry Mason trial.

    It does nothing of the kind. The removal of Mrs. Young is also illegal and improper, and I made that quite clear.

    What I said was that this is all part of the overall climate where nothing which interferes with the President's stage management of his image as Glorious Leader is tolerated, and t-shirts expressing political views are too sloppy and disrespectful of the Leader and are therefore not allowed - not just here, but in multiple other venues where the Leader speaks.

    If you can't understand why it's so Un-American to have citizens removed from multiple presidential speeches for doing nothing other than wearing t-shirts with political messages, then we just don't share enough of the same basic values to communicate. Then again, you're likely part of the same crowd who thinks that the President can violate the law as long as it's for our own good, so that should hardly come as any great surprise.

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  83. I never noticed the police escort out the people wearing the "purple heart bandaids" during the GOP convention as "demonstrations" of *political speech.* Which just goes to show...if you're "ON MESSAGE" (their message) political speech is OK.

    Oh ...but the purple fingers are just *images* and no words - like the *purple heart bandaids.*

    Wonder what they would do ya showed up wearing a T-Shirt with a reproduction of the image here of "a college art gallery exhibit of mock postage stamps, one depicting President Bush with a gun pointed at his head." (Scrubbed of the words: USA and 27 cents- of course).

    Political Speech? You Betcha! and Protected by the 1st Ammendment...but we ALL know George has his own *doctored* cliff-notes version of the Constitution edited of all that fluff and nonsense.

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  84. Anonymous6:36 PM

    Sheehan wanted to be arrested. She wasn't there to express a point of view. She was there to try and disrupt things and get her picture taken while shouting from the gallery.

    Reminds me of some uppity citizens from the South, back in the 60s, who were putting on airs, speaking their minds and going where they pleased in spite of very reasonable restrictions.

    Like being confined to the backs of busses, separate washrooms, and other free speech zones.

    Every American should be proud of every American who speaks their mind, in spite of the potential consequences.

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  85. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  86. The Capitol police had every right to arrest Cindy Sheehan for demostrating. Contrary to hysterical liberals in this country, her civil liberties were not violated.

    I think an issue overlooked in this story is maintaining House decorum. Cindy didn't get arrested just for wearing a particular t-shirt, but for trying to unfurl a banner.

    Apparently liberals have little respect for the House chamber and can't be bothered with pesky rules

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  87. Anonymous6:42 PM

    Karen McL writes: I never noticed the police escort out the people wearing the "purple heart bandaids" during the GOP convention as "demonstrations" of *political speech.* Which just goes to show...if you're "ON MESSAGE" (their message) political speech is OK.

    Oh ...but the purple fingers are just *images* and no words - like the *purple heart bandaids.*


    The GOP convention hall is a private site, leased by that Party for its event. As such, the GOP gets to decide who may wear and say what inside those walls.

    The House gallery is where our legislative body deliberates and passes laws. There are laws, rules and protocls controlling what may be said and done there -- but they must be viewpoint neutral. And even if viewpoint neutral, there still must be a good reason for the law, rule or regulation.

    I'm not sure what to think of the "purple finger" phenomenon, but I do know that if those fingers violated House rules or protocols, enforcement was up to the nonpartisan Capitol Police, not the GOP.

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  88. Those of you trying to justify the fact that Sheehan was arrested and Young wasn't are on the most precarious ground of all.

    I haven't made a big deal out of the difference in treatment those two received because it could be attributed to all sorts of factors - including the mood or personality of the individual Police dealing with them. I just don't know enough to use that discrepency too strongly in an argument, although the difference is notable.

    But the fact is that Mrs. Young - by her own account - argued with the Police about the propriety of what she was doing and even called them "idiots."

    By her account, Sheehan did nothing of the kind, meekly leaving when asked to. Regardless of whether you want to believe Sheehan (and has she proven herself to be a liar?), Young herself made clear that she was far from compliant with the request to leave and yet she wasn't arrested and Sheehan was.

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  89. Anonymous6:47 PM

    More GOP spin. Cindy Sheehan NEVER TRIED TO UNFURL A BANNER.

    HER CIVIL RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED.

    Glenn, you have no wrongs to admit, despite whatever silly GOP shills post in the comments.

    Please keep up the good work!

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  90. Anonymous6:48 PM

    Updated "Dr. Strangelove":

    "You can't practice free speech in here! This is the United States capitol building!"

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  91. I'm not sure what to think of the "purple finger" phenomenon, but I do know that if those fingers violated House rules or protocols, enforcement was up to the nonpartisan Capitol Police, not the GOP.

    Many of the events where people were removed for wearing t-shirts were Town Hall events paid for by the Federal Government to make it seem like Bush was taking questions from citizens. They were ordinary law-abiding citizens who had tickets and were thrown out because they had t-shirts expressing political views the Administration disliked AT A POLITICAL EVENT.

    You defend that??? You think the Administration has the right to use taxpayer funds and then use the Secert Service to keep anyone out who disagrees with the President.

    And where does this attutide come from of "Well, yeah, the law does seem to say that t-shirts are not banned by the law, and the District Court did say it was unconstitutional to ban people who aren't being disruptive, but these are Law Enforcement Agents doing this- they have guns and badges and uniforms and everything - and I'm sure they have good reasons for doing it even if it seems on every level like it's illegal and unconstitutional, because law enforcement agents never do anything which they law prohibits.

    NOBODY disputes that the Secret Service should get rid of security threats, and even err on the side of caution. But that wasn't Cindy Sheehan and it cearly wasn't the case with scores of other examples of people who were booted out or kept away from the President simply because they wore a t-shirt criticizing the Leader.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous6:50 PM

    I disagree with many things that Cindy Sheehan says, but if she was simply sitting in the gallery and not doing anything more to call attention to herself than wear a T Shirt with the language that has been reported, she should have been allowed to stay. Of course, the powers that be could not take the chance that she would not eventually do something during the speech to call attention to herself. So, they "had" to remover her rather than take the risk. For if they had not, she might have yelled out something untoward after the wild applause for the family of a fallen soldier that Bush acknowledged died down. Frankly, last night I could not help but think of the juxtaposition of Bush's exploitation of that family and Cindy Sheehan's removal from the speech. I was totally unmoved by their heart-tapping gestures at Bush as he gazed up at them, theatrically fighting back his tears. I would have been much more impressed if Sheehan had remained and Bush had said something along the lines of "I see that Cindy Sheehan is in the gallery tonight, and, though I know she does not agree with my Iraq policy, I want you to honor her sacrifice tonight as well. I know families that do not support my policy feel no less pain at their loss than those that do." But, no. The creep cannot brook anything except unquestioning affirmation. I have to say I agree with Glenn - it is creepy and cultish.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Bob Owens,

    Tell me about it. Liberals are too busy gleefully sharpening sticks to poke Bush supporters in the eye with to worry about integrity. How about Kerry on the Today show this morning "53 percent of our children don't graduate from high school". So according to Kerry, only 47% of America's children graduate from high school?

    Well, the actual number of high school graduates is well over 80%. But this fact evidently escaped Mr. Kerry, the Democrat's intellectual superstar, while he was preparing for his nationally televised interview with Katie Curic.

    The true statistics, if anyone cares, are here.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:58 PM

    Yes, Kerry has everything to do with Sheehan.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Hypatia - you say:

    "The GOP convention hall is a private site, leased by that Party for its event. As such, the GOP gets to decide who may wear and say what inside those walls."

    On a technicality - that I can agree with, the GOP convention as *private rental site* isn't the best example. Nor a place the police might have been asked those folks to leave - tho' the GOP claimed at the time they were "not responsible" for the bandaids and it was a private supporter handing out those *tokens*.

    But as Bush does this at private events as easily at Tax-payer expense in public venues...the examples of that are numeorus enough - just pick another site.

    I did mean to bring up the bandaids as yet another type of non-verbal Message (speech) like the purple fingers - And juxtapose it with the concept of and the non-verbal image of "a college art gallery exhibit of mock postage stamps, one depicting President Bush with a gun pointed at his head." Would that be considered "Threat Speech" merely for its portrayal of that picture - and no threatening action on my part just by wearing it?

    The FBI investigated this as a serious matter - presumably as a *threat* to the President on that mere depiction in the art work hanging in a gallery.

    Glenn - you're so vastly much more experienced on this stuff than I would ever hope to be. How far can one go down that legal path in claiming a *threat* exists from such an image on T-shirt or in a painting versus the 1st Amendment right to freedom of expression in an art work?

    ReplyDelete
  96. Are you suggesting that is not her arm right in front of her, directly in contradiction to her description of what happened?

    That's not the part I was referring to when I said I thought what happened to her was disgraceful assuming that events were as she described them.

    This isn't a police brutality issue. Who cares what the position of her arms was when they led her out? The point is that she was ejected and ARRESTED for wearing a t-shirt with a dignified and polite anti-war message.

    ReplyDelete
  97. I'm not a Democrat or a Republican, I'm an American. I don't know what the hell is wrong with the rest of you? The Entire US Government needs to be tarred and feathered, only we gave them the power to call us "TERRORISTS" so they can arrest us without charges, detain us, and exucute us without a trial! USA! USA! USA!

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    http://www.usmilitaryhistory.com/declrind.htm
    Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient suffrance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous7:25 PM

    I noticed earlier today that a large proportion of the TV audience went on record (on a CNN.com poll, I believe) as not having watched the SOTU address at all. I know I didn't; couldn't stand the sight of W's smirking mug. Interesting that the GOP was so careful about making sure that only flattering images went out...and that a bunch of people knew it'd have nothing to do with reality, and chose not to watch. The disconnect is there, and widening, I think.

    I will check back and see if I can get precise percentage numbers.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous7:29 PM

    I don't know which is more unbelievable to me: the ejections/arrest at the SOTU OR American citizens' incredibly milquetoast reaction to it. Even here from a FIRST AMENDMENT attorney, we hear: "I would be less inclined to become agitated over this incident..."

    WHAT? Imo ANY American who is not highly "agitated" about these gulag tactics deserves exactly what they are going to GET.

    I don't agree with all that Cindy does and I might not agree with much of what Beverly does, but this official oppression of First Amendment rights literally makes me sick and enraged.

    Where is the absolute outrage that is appropriate? No wonder GWB, Rove and their ilk have been so incredibly successful in taking over this country of weak, insipid, sheeple. It disgusts me beyond expression.

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  100. Sorry Mr. prunes,

    I guess I got carried away after reading all about free speech here...

    About Ms. Sheehan, she has already made her point in opposition to the war a thousand times over, and she seems to be crossing the line in actually behaving like a stalker the way she keeps following the president around. She wouldn’t be the first lunatic put on a watch list for repeatedly trying to contact the president in person.

    Why would she want to keep putting herself in these situations if not for more publicity?

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  101. Anonymous7:40 PM

    Why would she want to keep putting herself in these situations if not for more publicity?

    Your unwarranted (imo) assumption is that the publicity she seeks is for herself, not for the views she holds.

    You are right, she is liable to get into more trouble if she keeps this up. That is either the sign of a nut or someone who believes strongly enough in their cause to risk those kinds of consequences.

    You see, not every action is selfish.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous7:50 PM

    Hypatia, did you actually read the original post? The Bynum decision makes it clear that (a) Wearing a T-shirt with a protest message is not illegal, even under the regulations at issue; and (more importantly) (b) the DC police regulation purporting to ban all forms of "demonstration" - including non-disruptive forms of demonstration - was unconstitutionally vague and over-broad. The statute at issue does not purport to ban all forms of demonstration, but only those that interfere with Congress doing its official business. And, as the Bynum decision makes clear, a citizen does not lose his or her First Amendment rights simply because he or she enters the halls of Congress.

    And another thing. Since when is Bill Clinton the gold standard of legality and constitutionality in this country? This "Clinton did it, so it must be okay" defense is perhaps the most obnoxious (not to mention disingenuous) argument coming from the right. Clinton made mistakes. His mistakes don't justify Bush's. Period. Got it?

    Nor do I take any comfort in the fact that a T-shirt wearing supporter of the President may likewise have been asked to leave the chamber. So, the president is an equal opportunity violator of civil rights. Big deal. If these stories are accurate, both of these women had their First Amendment rights violated. Two wrongs don't make a right, as the saying goes.

    ReplyDelete
  103. prunes,

    Right, but Ted Kennedy also believed strongly in a filibuster perhaps taking it a little too far. I think both Kennedy and Sheehan are harming their cause more than helping with the constant over the top grandstanding.

    Steve,

    You seem like a smart person, why bother making pointless comments.

    And onionjim,

    It actually seems to be the case here, that's the scary part.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Appropriate time, place and manner restrictions notwithstanding...

    Glenn,
    Did you ever try to practice before the bench in a T-Shirt? Of course not. The judge would have probably held you in contempt both legally and personally.

    So, could the Capitol Police ban the wearing of T-shirts within the House Chamber during certain events? Not viewpoint specific, mind you. Just all T-shirts.

    If you'll agree they could then that might be a nice end-run for future cases. Thoughts?

    BTW, I assume the cast of thousands using Hitler references (contrary to Godwin's Law, no less) and Chimpy McBushitler Halliburton would be no less adamant in their condemnation if the rule was the content neutral banning of T-shirts. No?

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous8:00 PM

    Hypatia, the events mentioned in which loyalty oaths were required, and in which people were excluded for being suspecting of disagreeing, were NOT GOP-organized events.

    They were taxpayer-funded.

    Change your mine any?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous8:02 PM

    I'm glad you noted that no one left the chambers in protest of Sheehan's removal.
    Not Kerry, Clinton.......no one. So much posturing about Alito, so little real direct action when so needed. The Democrats, champions of the little guy.....bullshit. The Leader Guy once again disguises his ideology of hatred and racism in the robes of freedom and liberty and the Democrats? Well, they clapped less. Bravo, Democrats. Way to make a show. I'm not particularly fond of Sheehan, but she lost her son in Iraq and cares to speak up about it. So to, the Republican wife of a Florida Rep. escorted out, but not arrested, as well, who wore a tee shirt supporting the troops.
    Froomkin reports that the Leader Guy smiled and winked at the family "honored" during the speech for the loss of their soldier son. How creepy. Wonder if the Leader Guy smiled and winked at the families of the 250 people (two every month for six years) executed while the Leader Guy was Gov of Texas?
    And, with Sheehan, once again, the Leader Guy presides over an illegality.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous8:07 PM

    As long as Dick "go fuck yourself" Cheney can exercise his freedom of speech in the capitol :). What a fuckin' bunch of hypocrites? By the way I'd like to know why some people on the left dont like Cindy? Is it because she has too much of a "spine" ? I mean she is doing what should have been democrat's forte. Its people like her who brought an and to Vietnam, and we should have the balls to appreciate her efforts. Life of a young son is the biggest sacrifice a mother can make. She has done her part for the country. I'm more disgusted by statements like "brownie, you are doing a heck'uva job" and giving medals to Tennet.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous8:08 PM

    It's really interesting seeing the complete denial of reality by the right-wing nuts here. Several seem to think that Mrs. Young went quietly and Ms. Sheehan resisted. But by Mrs. Young's own statement, she protested and complained while leaving.

    And by Ms. Sheehan's statement, she went quietly. This appears to be confirmed by the people around her in the gallery, so far. Now perhaps some of the criminals who dragged her out are making other claims, but you can't really rely on them, because they're trying to avoid prosecution.

    Anyway, what is undisputed by all observers is that Sheehan did not make any attempts to disrupt the speech, and did not have any banner. Yet that stuff is being reported as if it's proven fact by right-wing sites.

    You guys have got to stop reading those lie factories if you want to have a clue.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous8:08 PM

    Clinton made mistakes. His mistakes don't justify Bush's. Period.

    Exactly. Clinton was a slime, and if you had asked me 5 years ago if I thought Bush would be a better president, I'd have asked if the pope was Catholic (which, iirc, he was at the time :)).

    Man, was I wrong.

    There was a whole lot I disliked about Clinton: the lying, the crooked deals, the economic irresponsibility, bad policy on new technologies, bad foreign policy...

    On every single issue that I criticized Clinton for, Bush has done much, much worse. I never would have believed it, but there it is.

    I was lied to by Republicans all those years. I thought they cared about this country, but they were only waiting for the chance to ramrod their radical, short-sighted, and ruinous policies through the system.


    I assume the cast of thousands using Hitler references (contrary to Godwin's Law, no less) and Chimpy McBushitler Halliburton would be no less adamant in their condemnation if the rule was the content neutral banning of T-shirts. No?

    Of course. Maybe you think that if you were in my shoes, you would only want free speech for your own side (whatever that is), but that's you, not me. Free speech is bigger than parties and bigger than administrations.

    What if Sheehan had come in a formal gown, gracefully embroidered with a hooded Abu Graib prisoner? Do you think she should be kicked out? It does not violate any dress code, is not obscene, and clearly not illegal.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous8:16 PM

    Hypatia purports to see no difference between sitting quietly in a chair, wearing a t-shirt, and marching in a circle carrying a poster and chanting. So that you can enforce the same time/place/manner restrictions on sitting while wearing a t-shirt as you can with the marching and chanting.

    I think Hypatia is yanking our chains -- from the belly of the Heritage Foundation, perhaps.

    As for forbidding the wearing of any t-shirts at all: That strikes me as a proscription of speech that is unjustified by any significant governmental purpose. What would justify preventing citizens from engaging in a traditional, non-disruptive form of expressive activity in a governmental building? Content-neutral doesn't cut it. Without some important, democratically legitimate purpose, the government can't say "no talking" even if the dictate applies to everyone.

    What's next: no t-shirts on the public sidewalks outside the White House? Outside the Capitol? In Washington DC? I know that sounds crazy, but plenty of what's happened in the last five years sounds crazy.

    How about it, Hypatia? Shall we say it's dangerous to have angry protestors wearing t-shirts in the nation's capital -- what with all the important people to protect? Shall we say it's dangerous to have angry protestors inciting others with their angry t-shirt-wearing?

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous8:21 PM

    Throughout the comments to this post, I have continuously read to the effect of "The State of the Union is really no place for exhibitions of political showmanship." or for a t-shirt, etc. Who gave who the right to make this rule? If you don't think it appropriate, then don't do it. But, it is not your place to tell others what is right or wrong. You can have an opinion, but you cannot pass judgment.

    Another thing I was reading is a bunch of SCOTUS interpretation of the First Amendment and spouting it off like it is gospel. Just because the SCOTUS held something doesn't mean it was right. Just because it declared that there is such a thing as proper time, place, and manner restrictions, does not mean that there is that exception in the First Amendment. I, for one, think the First Amendment is rather unambiguous and without exception. Just because a group of people on a bench has read something more into it, does not mean that what they read was actually there.

    ReplyDelete
  112. prunes,
    Schools can legally ban wearing T-shirts with writing on them.

    anonymous,
    Good job confirming my supposition. Now I can rest peacefully.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Second anonymous,
    Then I'm sure you'll be happy not to call the cops when my pro-Republican propaganda machine rides through your neighborhood blasting pro-Chimpy rants at a decibel just above that of a 747?

    Or perhaps you'll be happy to cash my check that I don't have enough funds to cover because it's my statement against 'The Man' and all?

    Or does the First Amendment have some exceptions?

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous8:34 PM

    Dearest birkel,

    Schools can legally ban wearing T-shirts with writing on them.

    That is based on entirely different legal precedents, but...
    how about my above thought experiment wherein Sheehan wears a formal gown embroidered with a silhouette image from Abu Graib to the SOTU ? Do you believe she should be allowed to do so? If not, what is the distinguishing factor between the Abu Graib gown and a t-shirt with a number on it?

    Then I'm sure you'll be happy not to call the cops when my pro-Republican propaganda machine rides through your neighborhood blasting pro-Chimpy rants at a decibel just above that of a 747?

    Sure. I'll be outside waving, with my 1st amendment finger up.

    ReplyDelete
  115. prunes,
    Somehow your First Amendment finger doesn't scare my Second Amendment trigger finger. (Gosh, where are the purists on the Left for the Second Amendment? Or the 9th? Or the 10th?)

    And if it was a ban on T-shirts then by all means the Abu Ghraib dress would be fine. (It could be a ban on any clothing with writing or pictures, I guess. And that would probably have a decent chance of passing Constitutional muster.)

    I'm actually with Glenn Greenwald on this issue. "Constitutionally vague and overbroad" laws or "viewpoint discrimination" by government actors is anethema.

    I also don't trust that Ms. Sheehan went quietly into that good night. I like a good fruitcake around the holidays but this one has been on the shelf for much too long. But as political operatives go I do not think KKKarl Rove could've done a better job picking a Lefty to push the POTUS's agenda. While also savaging the Left's chance of remaining a viable second party...

    ReplyDelete
  116. Glenn, Cindy wasn't the only one tossed. The wife of Rep. Young (a well-know fanatic for acting up in public against anyone who has disparaged our soldiers) was wearing a "Support our troops" T-shirt and she got the boot, too because someone complained.

    I gather (from everything I've read so far) that anyone wearing any sort of statement was being asked to leave and that it wasn't directed at any one group or just Sheehan.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous8:52 PM

    You may want to read the article on MSNBC front page where the police say they "screwed up" and are dropping charges against Cindy

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11120353/

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous8:55 PM

    Then I'm sure you'll be happy not to call the cops when my pro-Republican propaganda machine rides through your neighborhood blasting pro-Chimpy rants at a decibel just above that of a 747?

    Actually, this is a pretty good summary of what's wrong here. Some people just plain don't understand ideals like "free speech." (I've noticed that my european friends have this problem, too, they're not used to the idea of inherent rights.)

    Someone may think, "I am glad Sheehan was thrown out. If the political parties were reversed in this situation, everyone who is now criticizig Sheehan's arrest be praising it."

    That kind of thought is incorrect.

    Statements like birkel's say a lot about the speaker. It shows a lack of imagination, and a lack of self-examination.

    Simply because YOU support speech suppression, you have to believe your "enemies" also support speech suppression. If they didn't, what would that say about you?

    This is the "projection" they tell you about in Psych 101.

    You may tell yourself that speech must be suppressed in these kinds of ways, just as a necessity, but you are fooling yourself. A t-shirt cannot possibly harm anyone, and if you can't handle t-shirts around that you don't like, you frankly can't handle the kinds of rights and responsibilities attendent to American citizenship.


    Somehow your First Amendment finger doesn't scare my Second Amendment trigger finger. (Gosh, where are the purists on the Left for the Second Amendment? Or the 9th? Or the 10th?)

    And you automatically assume I'm some leftie, just because I give a damn about free speech.

    The American left's hard-on for gun control is my number one criticism of them.

    I've voted a straight mix of Libetarian and Republican all my life. If the Democrats manage to grow any actual balls and put up some opposition, I might actually vote blue for the first time this year, but I ain't holding my breath.

    ReplyDelete
  119. prunes,
    It is you who do not understand the First Amendment. Noise trucks through neighborhoods -- even ones that blast political messages which are at the core of the First Amendment -- can be regulated for volume. Period. And if you think my agreement with Glenn Greenwald on this matter means I'm for speech suppression then you're sorely mistaken - and foolish.

    Absolutism (whether it comes to religious dogma or the First or any other Amendment) is silly. So now I'll simply wait for Mr. Greenwald to respond if he so chooses. It's obvious you should go back to the children's table.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous9:08 PM

    "Then I'm sure you'll be happy not to call the cops when my pro-Republican propaganda machine rides through your neighborhood blasting pro-Chimpy rants at a decibel just above that of a 747?"

    My neighborhood has noise ordinances, and you'd be in violation. What does that have to do with free speech?

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous9:09 PM

    one of the things that bothers me about some comments in this set of comments and,

    more generally, of any effort to publicly critize american government officials or policy,

    is that the burden of proof of "acceptabile conduct" is always placed on the shoulders of the individual citizen who engages in the public criticism.

    and placed there by some of his/her fellow citrizens.

    why should this be so?

    why should the propriety of cindy sheehan actions be the central topic of this discussion?

    why should the propriety of her actions be an issue at all?

    in 1786(?) american citizens were given a very extensive right to comment on the actions of their government,

    repeat,

    their government.

    at that time, the first amendment did not extend to movie content, to the right to give money to political campaigns, to the right of a corporation to advertise.

    the original right of free speech was to enable individuals and newspapers to criticize, without official retribution, acts of the government in power that these citizens considered inappropriate.

    in fact, it was precisely because the men who wrote the constitution were schooled in european, and especially english, political history and because they had had their own experiences with government repression of criticism that the first amendment was written.

    why is it not automatically assumed that the capitol police, in this incident, or the secret service or local police in other instances, have acted illegally to restrict speech?


    has not the bush adminstration developed a clear track record over five years of doing exactly this?

    is it not the nature of policing organizations to do so if not properly trained and led?

    answers.

    yes and yes.


    on this page in the web log world,

    some commenters seem most concerned with "facts" that relate to ms. sheehan's actions:

    her political position on the war,

    did she shout,

    did she wave a banner,

    isn't it bad manners to make a fuss at the "president's" state of the union speech, etc..

    if we understand anything about the first amendment it shoudl be that it gives us great latitude to verbally criticize our government and our elected officals.

    the first amendment does not start out

    "the people shall be polite, orderly, and respectful when they criticize their government."

    it starts out (correct my menmory)

    "the government shall make not law abridging ... (speech, peaceable assembly, relgious affiliation)."

    "the government shall" is where those guys in philadelphia put the emphasis.

    they were enjoining

    the government

    from inappropraite action, not the government's citizen critics.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous9:11 PM

    Scratch my previous comment. I've lost track of who's arguing what!

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous9:14 PM

    All: It would be a bit much to respond individually to my many detractors, and if I miss some argument any commenter thinks important, point it out.

    But let me make this clear: I am not arguing that the policy of removing people from the House gallery for wearing tee shirts emblazoned with political protest is good or constitutional. Nor am I arguing that if "Clinton did it too" that makes it right.

    What I am arguing is that this policy is not some innovation of George Bush's, and Sheehan was not removed because he has taken nefarious control of the Capitol Police. It has long gone on, for good or ill, and no matter what any court has ruled or any statute provides.

    That said, I'd want to spend more time than a mere Internet blogswarm today permits to consider what my ultimate position is on a time, place and manner restriction on speech in the Senate and House galleries. Decorum there is important, but so very much so is freedom of speech, and I'd have to research case law and think about it all before I held forth in any definitive manner.

    Finally, Cindy Sheehan is, in fact, a liar. She lied about not sending anti-Semitic email. If anyone challenges me on this I'll track it down -- but her explanation was truly absurd, involving people supposedly doctoring her emails. She is a media whore, and getting arrested and thereby back in the news is what she now lives for. I believe she argued with the Capitol Police and invited her arrest -- not because she is anti-Bush, but because she is Cindy Sheehan.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous9:14 PM

    Anyway, the debate is somewhat moot now.

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11120353/

    ReplyDelete
  125. Grover,

    To clarify. I'm using the example of the noise truck as an example of a reasonable time, place and manner restriction. It's perfectly Constitutional to have a noise ordinance like the one you describe.

    I'm trying to make the case that First Amendment absolutists are arguing against a well-decided bit of Constitutional law.

    Then the questions becomes where to draw the line and who draws said lines.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous9:17 PM

    And Malkin can eat this, from the article:

    Holding up the shirt his wife wore, Rep. Young said on the House floor Wednesday morning: “Because she had on a shirt that someone didn’t like that said support our troops, she was kicked out of this gallery.”

    “Shame, shame,” he scolded.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous9:18 PM

    Yes, sorry birkel! I got lost in the back and forth :-).

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous9:21 PM

    If you believe she was exercising her 1st Amendment rights to free speech by wearing the t-shirt, then it would follow (despite the Capitol Police regs) that she was demonstrating in the Capitol building, which is a crime. There is no 1st Amendment issue there; the only question is whether wearing the shirt constitutes demonstrating under the criminal statute. I'm not sure there's a good answer to that. At least until a court hears it.

    Second, it was the Capitol Police who arrested her, under the command of the Congress, not the President's Secret Service. I agree that what Bush does to exclude protestors and dissenters from his events is reprehensible, but it seems to me this is a different situation entirely. Unless Cheney told them to be on the lookout for her...

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous9:22 PM

    If Cindy would just marry Hugo and GO AWAY to say....Antarctica, the world would be a much better place.

    Hey! Why not take Fidel along as chaperone?!? Cindy could cook dishes right from the CodePink recipes and they'd all live together in frozen paradise!!!!!!

    (Hey, just give me the wooden stake, a pitchfork, light my torch, and point the way to these vulcan nut cases.)

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous9:23 PM

    "Finally, Cindy Sheehan is, in fact, a liar. She lied about not sending anti-Semitic email. If anyone challenges me on this I'll track it down -- but her explanation was truly absurd, involving people supposedly doctoring her emails. She is a media whore, and getting arrested and thereby back in the news is what she now lives for."

    You should have stopped before this. You state your case reasonably then demolish it by saying, essentially, "Anyway, I hate the b*itch."

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous9:29 PM

    Again, folks, the Capitol Police have admitted they were wrong and no law was violated.

    ReplyDelete
  132. For fun, scan down to Malkin's next post, the one where she chastizes Kerry for saying tyhat "only 53% of our h.s. students graduate."

    She then links to a census bureau figure to “debunk” his figures. Of course, the census figure - AT THE TOP OF THE CHART - includes both high school diplomas AND EQUIVALENCIES.

    http://michellemalkin.com/archiv…ives/ 004429.htm

    http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Pr…003/ R13T040.htm

    For once, I’d like to see a right-wing blogger actually read the entire law, figure, statistic, story, etc. they’re covering before opining on it, not just the first few words of it - before first hysterically running to their keyboards to trash someone. I’ve seen this kind of intellectual dishonesty and laziness often from Malkin, in particular.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous9:57 PM

    uukgzt"You should have stopped before this. You state your case reasonably then demolish it by saying, essentially, "Anyway, I hate the b*itch.""

    Replace the word "b*tch* with "Bush" and your post describes why Dems have been losing in elections for so long now.

    ReplyDelete
  134. These are excerps from the NBC story several people have just linked to:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11120353/

    WASHINGTON - Charges against antiwar protester Cindy Sheehan, who was arrested after an incident involving a T-shirt she wore to the State of the Union address, will be dropped, officials told NBC News Wednesday.

    “We screwed up,” a top Capitol Police official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

    He said Sheehan didn't violate any rules or laws.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous10:03 PM

    Glen is way wrong on this one!

    "Time, place and manner — Considerations that could act as restrictions on what would ordinarily be First Amendment-protected expression. Such restrictions do not target speech based on content, and in order to stand up in court, they must be applied in a content-neutral manner. For example, people have the right to march in protest, but not with noisy bullhorns at 4 a.m. in a residential neighborhood."

    http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=glossary

    Another example of a permissible prohibition on otherwise protected First Amendment activity is, for example, a union prohibited from passing out fliers at a mall that does not permit leafletting of any kind. Another is a rule barring political campaign signs inside a polling place. Another is a prohibition against reading a poem during a criminal trial. Or wearing anti-union or pro-union buttons during a union representation election.

    The First Amendment does not give anyone the right to disrupt business, whether public or private, whenever the protester feels like it! If that was the rule, then someone could stand at your desk and ridicule your politics all day, simply because they felt like it. Such a state of the world would not make sense and it is NOT THE LAW!

    The pro-Sheehan folk's reliance on a "protest" a year ago? Weak and temporaly remote. The pro-Sheehan folk's reliance on a District Court judge's decision in a public prayer case a number of years ago? Precedentially weak.

    Glen appears to be the type of First Amendment absolutist I used to encounter in my former life as a public school attorney. They have a wide-ranging theory that a protest like Sheehan's SHOULD be protected. However, the Supreme Court long ago ruled that the government can create content-neutral time place and manner restrictions on expression to avoid disruption of public business.

    The State of the Union address was neither the time nor the place for Sheehan's individualistic quixotic protest. Just because Sheehan thinks it should be OK to protest there and then does not mean she has legal protection for such an effort. Indeed, imagine if ten or twelve other people decided to protest at various times during the speech, all claiming the same supposed "rights" that Glen claims here. That would disrupt the president from fulfilling HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY to address the Congress.

    Obviously, there is a time and a place for Sheehan to wear her t-shirt. She can wear in on the Capitol steps, she can maybe even wear it in the hallway. But there is no grand Constitutional violation in prohibiting her from wearing the t-shirt in the chambers during the SOTU address. The police nothing wrong in removing her and arresting her.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous10:10 PM

    "I agree that what Bush does to exclude protestors and dissenters from his events is reprehensible, but it seems to me this is a different situation entirely."

    Well, that can't be right. Bush and the RNC obviously have a right to have an event and express THEIR First Amendment rights, without that message being trampled, diluted, or otherwise maimed by protesters or "dissenters" in their midst. Protesters and dissenters are more than free to have their own protests at a different time and place. But just as the case of the St. Patrick's Day parade in Boston excluding the gay Irish group, individuals (even the president) have the right to assemble and address crowds without having to subsidize opposing speech.

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  137. Anonymous10:13 PM

    "How is the President prevented from giving his speech by someone sitting there wearing a t-shirt?"

    You are asking the wrong question. The question is not "is there any disruption", but "is there a content neutral rule". If there is a content neutral rule (like no non-curricular posters in the high school hallway), that is sufficient to bar the hanging of political posters, soft drink ads, etc.

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  138. Anonymous10:27 PM

    The real problem here is that people on the loony left and the nutty right confuse a temper tantrum with "free speech". Screaming at the top of your lungs is not "speech" intended to persuade, thus protected by the First Amendment; it is noise intended to annoy. Likewise wearing a t-shirt to the State of the Union address, inviolation of a content neutral policy is not protected. What's up with a t-shirt, Cindy? Was your Green Bay Packers jersey at the cleaners?

    Cindy Sheehan, serial protester, was probably more than happy to be arrested, since attention seeking behavior seems to be her only occupation at the moment. She is the left's version of Fred Phelps . . . a nutbag best kept at arms length.

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  139. B-Rob - the whole point is that t-shirts don't disrupt the event and therefore are not considered to be legitimate time, place and manner restrictions.

    There is a Federal District court opinion on point holding that the First Amendment bars the prohibitions of non-disruptive activites from the Capitol, and the Capitol Police themselves promulgated regulations expressly excluding the wearing of t-shirts from the definition of "protest" or "demonstration."

    That's why this happened:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11120353/

    WASHINGTON - Charges against antiwar protester Cindy Sheehan, who was arrested after an incident involving a T-shirt she wore to the State of the Union address, will be dropped, officials told NBC News Wednesday. . . .

    But Capitol Police will ask the U.S. attorney's office to drop the charges, NBC News’ Mike Viqueira reported Wednesday.

    “We screwed up,” a top Capitol Police official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said Sheehan didn't violate any rules or laws.


    It's hard to see how you can continue to argue that I'm wrong when even the Capitol Police have admitted that my argument is correct.

    As for my being an "absolutist" on First Amendment issues, I'll be happy to change my mind the minute you or anyone else shows me any exceptions to the absolute prohibition on free speech restrictions in the First Amendment.

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  140. Anonymous10:31 PM

    It is you who do not understand the First Amendment. Noise trucks through neighborhoods -- even ones that blast political messages which are at the core of the First Amendment -- can be regulated for volume. Period.

    I agree 100%, duh, and never said otherwise. Since Sheehan was not disruptive by any reasonable standard (shirts have no volume at all), she obviously should have been allowed to stay. I said I would not call the police on you, as I appreciate your right to self-expression more than I mind being a little inconvenienced.

    Absolutism (whether it comes to religious dogma or the First or any other Amendment) is silly.

    Projection again, but...

    Absolutism (whether it comes to religious dogma or the First or any other Amendment) is silly. So now I'll simply wait for Mr. Greenwald to respond if he so chooses. It's obvious you should go back to the children's table.

    Yeesh. Settle yerself down. If you reread my previous posts, you will not find whatever you are imagining is there. You will find the reasonable expectation that silent, non-disruptive protest falls under the 1st, and admiration for citizens who aren't intimidated by laws which violate the clear spirit of the 1st.

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  141. Anonymous10:31 PM

    Can you believe this quote from the AP?

    Sheehan's T-shirt alluded to the number of soldiers killed in Iraq: "2245 Dead. How many more?"...

    Young's shirt had just the opposite message: "Support the Troops -- Defending Our Freedom."


    No, seriously, that's what it says.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous10:35 PM

    That *is* appalling!

    Thank you for sharing this information, and these links!

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous10:42 PM

    "B-Rob - the whole point is that t-shirts don't disrupt the event and therefore are not considered to be legitimate time, place and manner restrictions."

    You know good and well that disruption is NOT the touchstone for a time place and manner restriction!

    "There is a Federal District court opinion on point holding that the First Amendment bars the prohibitions of non-disruptive activites from the Capitol, and the Capitol Police themselves promulgated regulations expressly excluding the wearing of t-shirts from the definition of "protest" or 'demonstration.'"

    Having practiced First Amendment law, you know full well that, as you described it, prayer in an outer hallway and wearing a t-shirt in the legislative chambers during the course of business are NOT similar. The hallway is for ease of movement, not for the ordinary course of business. Your comparison is like claiming the right to picket on a sidewalk outside the post office assumes the right to picket INSIDE the post office, where business is conducted. That is simply a laughable argument that does not pass the giggle test. And relying on a District Court decision? Please . . .

    The number of Supreme Court cases uphoding time place and manner restrictions goes back . . . what, almost 40 years? That is the quintessential "exception[] to the absolute prohibition on free speech restrictions in the First Amendment" that you seem to claim does not exist.

    Here's a link. Bone up a bit!

    www.aclu-nj.org/downloads/RightToProtest.pdf

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  144. Anonymous10:46 PM

    Lots of good Germans out on the threads here. Wouldn't want to protest where the elected representatives of the people could actually SEE it, would you? Wouldn't be prudent.
    And like elsewhere, when you are caught in a sci-fi robot logical conundrum, change the topic to Kerry, Clinton, or liberals being intolerant of rightwingers. Geesh.

    Glenn Greenewald you are the master of awesome useful and reasonable blogging. Carry on!

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous10:49 PM

    Time to make this petty bullshit expensive.

    Calling any yong law students who would like to make a name in politics. Time to sue the capital police for damages, misuse of authority, conspiracy, etc.

    Whenever MLK was arrested young lawyers were there to make sure that the legal costs were paid by the "authorities".

    Time to get it together again. The law is not there to justify the president.

    There's alot of money to be made persecuting this kind of petty bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous10:56 PM

    If Cindy Sheehan didn't make vocal protests in violation of the law in the House gallery, I don't think her t-shirt is, per the First Amendment, grounds to remove her. I honestly thought/think she wanted to cause a ruckus, but that suspicion is not grounds for arresting her, and if the cops are now saying she did nothing wrong, that is that.

    But this isn't some George Bush plot. The Capitol Police have been doing this shit for some time. What might be a proper and constitutional law of general applicability for bans on certain speech behaviors in our deliberative bodies, I don't know. Have not sufficiently thought about it.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous11:14 PM

    Here in the supposed liberal bastion of Massachusetts (where we have a Governor who stated: "Marraige has been between a man and a woman since the beginning of time") T-shirts that promote the resistance of "snitching", meaning turning in a fellow gang member to the authorities, have been banned from courtrooms.

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/01/11/judge_fights_courtroom_intimidation/

    Mobile phones - dangerous devices - have also been banned.

    Apparently this is legal because in a courtroom various amendments are thrown out the window in apparent favor of the supremacy of a judge.

    Although this may pass "constitutional muster", the intimidation of shopkeepers who sell the shirts in Boston, allegedly by the Boston Police, may not.

    The Sheehan incident last night, sickening as it was, stands as a perfect, poetic, speech in itself. It says this administration is a complete fraud; those who propped it into place are liars, theives, and care nothing for America; and those who voted were manipulated through another historical instance of mass-deception. It also suggests that those who have gone forth and gotten themselves blown up for it have paid the highest price - and in turn are losing the very things they're supposedly fighting for.

    Cindy brought her son back last night. "I will fight for you", he whispered to her heart. "Thank you for standing for me".

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous11:17 PM

    From that MSNBC story:

    The two women appeared to have offended tradition if not the law, according to several law enforcement and congressional officials. By custom, the annual address is to be a dignified affair in which the president reports on the state of the nation. Guests in the gallery who wear shirts deemed political in nature have, in past years, been asked to change or cover them up.

    Read through my comments -- that's what I've been saying. Notwithstanding any case law or statute, this is what they have been doing, before Bush 43.

    I know this for a fact, because I was warned about it while going to DC for political protest purposes.

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  149. onionjim,

    How would you like to have Ms. Sheehan camped out along the road in front of your home for a few months while she stews there waiting to confront you.

    Yeah, that's not stalking anyone though. She's just trying to get to know her new friends in Texas. Ms. Sheehan refers to President Bush as "George", nothing creepy about that either.

    About the local police dropping charges, I think that was the right thing to do, even if she was resisting arrest. For all we know President Bush made that call.

    As for "speech behaviors in our deliberative bodies" there is a reason why each state sends elected officials to Washington. Instead of trying to harass the president, Ms. Sheehan should be discussing her "problems" with her state representatives.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous11:26 PM

    Cindy brought her son back last night. "I will fight for you", he whispered to her heart. "Thank you for standing for me".

    Make. Me. Vomit.

    And yes, I have the moral authority to judge her. Her son did not feel that way. Being true to one's dead son is pretty supremely important. I have been with mine.

    ReplyDelete
  151. BTW, here is the relevant U.S. Code:

    "Sec. 5104. Unlawful activities

    (B) enter or remain in the gallery of either House of Congress in violation of rules governing admission to the gallery adopted by that House or pursuant to an authorization given by that House;

    (C) with the intent to disrupt the orderly conduct of official business, enter or remain in a room in any of the Capitol Buildings set aside or designated for the use of either House of Congress or a Member, committee, officer, or employee of Congress or either House of Congress;"

    And on displaying graphics representing political movements:

    "(2) display in the Grounds a flag, banner, or device designed or adapted to bring into public notice a party, organization, or movement."

    -SOURCE-

    (Pub. L. 107-217, Aug. 21, 2002, 116 Stat. 1176.)

    uscode.house.gov.

    LilyLemur,

    I wonder if there is anything in the Bill of Rights guaranteeing that U.S. citizens shall be free from having protestors trying to disrupt the official business of our government?

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous12:11 AM

    The t-shirt flap:
    let's hope
    the survalliance
    police ain't
    as confused.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous12:11 AM

    anona writes: Hypatia and the menagerie, you are too pathetic. All of your misbegotten ideas have vanished before your very eyes leaving you nothing except ad hominem attacks. Face it, if you or I performed in our jobs as patheticly as did the Capital Police in this instance we'd be fired. We, as tax payers, are paying for this assault on our rights and you morons are defeding it. You should be arrested for your ideas and shackeled to the floor in Gitmo. I wonder how many snarling dogs it would take before you wet yourselves.

    Thank you for reading me so well, and hoping I am shackled to a floor and terrorized by snarling dogs. Our republic depends on citizens just like you.

    ReplyDelete
  154. BTW, thanks for this post and all the work that's gone into it. It's been an excellent resource.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous12:27 AM

    hypatia:

    there are a very large number of posts from you on this site about this issue.

    you have an obsessive concern for ms sheehan's activities

    and

    an obsessive concern to demonstrate her wrong in some manner.

    in one of the posts just above this you mention a dead son.

    did he die in iraq? you don't say.

    in my mind there are two likely explantions for your obsessive behavior:

    either you have a dead son and are abusing cindy shehaan as a way of dealing with your own grief and loss

    or

    you are simply someone, female or male, paid to disrupt discussion on this site. my personal guess is the latter.

    if you have suffered a loss of a son in war, i can only say i am sorry for your loss and can only faintly understand your anguish. nonetheless, it is unkind and mean-spirited to attack sheehan in the persistent way you have attacked her, like a hyena mauling a carcass.

    if you do, in fact, have grief to bear, attacking sheehan is not going to make you whole.

    additionaly, your "lawyerly" criticisms of sheehan are no more convincing than many corporate lawyer arguments, and have the same specious, insensitive quality to them.

    but to each her own.

    you can sleep with your conscience and your ghosts tonight and i'll sleep with mine. but this is not way to put yourself thru law school.

    either way, you've demonstrated how free speech can be used or abused, but it cannot be hindered under our constitution --

    your's or cindy sheehan's.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Interesting that the GOP congressman whose wife was also asked to leave had the head of the Capitol Police come immediately to his office. Since the wife also had a t-shirt problem, they had to back off of Sheehan too.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous12:43 AM

    I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on the issue brought up about Ms. Sheehan saying she was led out with her hands behind her back, but the image not showing this.

    (obtained from http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/1/31944/23746)
    He then ran over to me, hauled me out of my seat and roughly (with my hands behind my back) shoved me up the stairs.

    I think you're really drawing at straws to claim that, by her own account, she had her arms held behind her from the moment the officer first made physical contact with her.

    I would imagine that they really wouldn't want to bring more attention to the situation and give a lot of people a chance to see/record a woman being roughly ripped from her seat and dragged away.

    Regardless of what I would think they would/wouldn't want, it's really not hard to read it like this:

    (think telegraph)
    He then ran over to me *STOP*
    hauled me out of my seat *STOP*
    and roughly (with my hands behind my back) shoved me up the stairs. *STOP*

    The image was clearly not taken as she was being "escorted" up the stairs, therefore I can see no reason to doubt her claim.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous12:44 AM

    Ugly American writes:I am still waiting for the answers to my questions btw Hypathia.

    Please drop the 2nd "H." It is "Hypatia," no second H. Not a big deal, but you keep doing it, including at your blog.

    Now, I have asked twice: What am I not answering?

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Hey Glen,

    You might want to look into this

    Official: Army Has Authority to Spy on Americans
    http://cqpolitics.com/cq.com/www.cq.com/public/20060131_homeland.html

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous12:49 AM

    Pardon me, Ugly American, but it does not seem that my posting as TuiMel is that much less anonymous than if I submitted my comments as "Anonymous." My opinions can be trashed or affirmed either way. So the "anonymous" posting does not trouble me, per se.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous12:56 AM

    Hypatia, please change your Internet moniker. Your continued blathering about how wearing a T-shirt is exactly the same as screaming disruptive curses and waving red flags, and how the Capitol Building, home of the people's representatives, is the wrong place for a citizen to express herself, is grossly insulting not just to American citizens, but to the memory of the real Hypatia -- a woman horribly murdered for speaking about things other people thought she shouldn't be allowed to say. Why not use "Evita" -- or just "Eva", for that matter?

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous1:00 AM

    Temperance: You have not read me, understood me, or accurately characterized what I have argued. I'll keep my moniker, thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous1:09 AM

    And really Temperance, for you to say about me: Your continued blathering about how wearing a T-shirt is exactly the same as screaming disruptive curses and waving red flags,

    Go freakin' read the whole comments. No one did more than I to set that record straight.

    But don't let me stop your sterotyping everyone you encounter.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous1:43 AM

    Glenn, do you have a source for the second exercpt in Update V? The one where you bolded the passage, "They told her she was being treated the same as Sheehan, who was ejected before the speech." I can't find that passage anywhere in the msnbc article.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous1:53 AM

    Will somebody please ask Scottie "I'm not answering any questions" why this woman was removed and challenge him on anything he says that is factually false.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous2:12 AM

    hypatia, you've ignored the very thoughtful post from orionatl.

    I'm sure that's a mere oversight, and I'm looking forward to reading your response to o's questions.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous2:32 AM

    vetiver saysI'm sure that's a mere oversight, and I'm looking forward to reading your response to o's questions.

    Please specify the EXACT questions.

    This blog is replete with comments from left people. I'm not on the left, and not happy either with the handful of right commnenters, who also insist I do not answer them.

    I cannot -- CANNOT -- answer everybody by myself. This Internet conversation is imortant to me, but this site's followers has a volume more than I can take on alone. To the best of my time and ability, I answer inquiries.

    ReplyDelete
  168. It is possible that Ms. Sheehan was escorted out for good cause, with the charges being dropped later simply as a kind gesture.

    ReplyDelete
  169. After being forbidden to simply videotape a Town Hall address by Marilyn Musgrave (by her Chief of Staff Guy Short) it became clear to me that the Republicans are clearly scared witless of saying stupid things on camera.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous4:51 AM

    "It is possible that Ms. Sheehan was escorted out for good cause, with the charges being dropped later simply as a kind gesture."

    An official of the Capitol Police was quoted as saying that she did nothing wrong. "We screwed up." They were wrong to remove her from the premises. What part of that is hard to understand?

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  171. Mark Richards --

    The incidents where the "no snitches" shirts were banned *from the courtroom* were because they were seen as being used *to intimidate witnesses,* not as any "suppression of free speech."

    Cameras and cell phones are not allowed within the courthouses in Massachusetts. The original prohibition (of long standing) was against cameras unless prior arrangments were made with the courts, and part of that was to help protect anonymity of jurors.

    Recently cell phones were added because of he preponderance of cell phones that can be used to take pictures.

    A specific incident: Also, no one will be allowed to operate cell phones equipped with still or video cameras inside a courtroom.

    Mulligan said the policy was motivated in part by an incident in Salem Superior Court last spring. During a gang-related trial, several friends of the defendant were seen using camera phones to photograph a prosecutor, a police investigator and a witness who was testifying, according to Steve O'Connell, a spokesman for the Essex District Attorney's office.

    Court officers at Suffolk Superior Court also reported several incidents recently in which spectators pointed camera phones at witnesses or jurors.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous7:44 AM

    Thank you, Glenn. A couple hundred comments is a lot of response, some of it eloquent. For me, the most important comment is still the very first one above. Walter admits to being swayed to be (more) conscious of the value of the words of the founders. The actual state of the union is bad, and must get worse, until a sufficiently large proportion of the population feels that way.

    --nbm
    _ _ _

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous3:12 PM

    birkel:

    "Then I'm sure you'll be happy not to call the cops when my pro-Republican propaganda machine rides through your neighborhood blasting pro-Chimpy rants at a decibel just above that of a 747?"

    Me - A nuisance crime

    birkel:

    "Or perhaps you'll be happy to cash my check that I don't have enough funds to cover because it's my statement against 'The Man' and all?"

    Me - Fraud

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous3:20 PM

    As usual the trolls are hard at work trying to change the facts and confuse the issue.

    But since they're all full of shit and the real facts have emerged...have fun eating that crow.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous3:29 PM

    I've been following this story, and I have to say, this is scary as hell. Getting arrested for wearing a shirt quietly? What is next?

    I love what this country used to stand for, but these days, I'm all for starting over. We had a good run.

    ReplyDelete
  176. It is possible that Ms. Sheehan was escorted out for good cause, with the charges being dropped later simply as a kind gesture.

    Well, it is possible; except that isn't what happened.

    Ms. Sheehan was not "escorted" from the chamber, she was arrested. When you are arrested, you are forcibly removed from where you are and taken to jail. You are not asked to leave, you are given no choice but to do so, and you are usually controlled (a hand on the arm, whatever it takes) to be sure you comply.

    And the charges were dropped, per the Capitol Police, because of an error in the arrest, i.e., it was baseless. The NYT article quotes the head of the Capitol Police (the "Chief:" can't recall the official title right now) accepting responsibility for the error, and admitting the arrest never should have occurred.

    In law, in fact, this is called a "false arrest," and on the facts in the news, Ms. Sheehan has grounds for a suit on precisely that tort.

    So the error was on the part of the arresting officer. Case law and regulations make it clear Ms. Sheehan committed no crime (you can't be arrested unless a crime is alleged). The arresting authority has admitted that.

    The story begins and ends there.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous8:49 PM

    The clearest distinction for me is the organized purple finger demonstration at last year's SOTU compared with the case-law tested protected free speech on a t-shirt.

    I also remember something about Larry Flynt wearing a "Fuck this Court" shirt before the SC and citing the Cohen case as a defense against contempt. Anybody else?

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous9:48 PM

    Where is the humanity? Where is the compassion??

    Enough with the holier-than-thou judgements of a Gold Star Mother [that "Gold Star" means her child was KILLED IN ACTION in Iraq]. She deserves FAR MORE leeway than any "average" person attending a public event like the SOTU, not LESS.

    And yet, if you bothered to read her own account of the evening, she knew going in that any actions on her part would reflect poorly on the Representative who gave her the ticket. Therefore she was self-censoring her behavior MORE than the "average" person would.

    She was treated shamefully, shabbily, and heartlessly, in the name of the Citizens of the United States by those charged with protecting the building where WE are supposedly represented.

    TRY to put yourself in her shoes. Stop overlooking her loss as ancient history. She lives with it every day, and NO ONE deserves to be mistreated as she was that night. FOUR HOURS in detention, FOR NOTHING? And this is a woman whose son lost his life in service to his country...

    Have WE no shame?

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous11:31 AM

    Fly,

    What I want to know is why she was allowed her to re-enter the U.S.

    Because she is an American citizen. Or are you advocating that critics of the Administration have their citizenship revoked? If so, you really are a fascist.

    ReplyDelete