The logistics of live-blogging from the Committee room were too complicated, so I am live-blogging the hearings off-site. I may be able to do it from the Committee room itself for the afternoon session, but I'd rather have full blogging abilities outside of the room than be in the room.
I understood that Gonzales was going to be sworn in. Apparently, Specter decided that he did not want him to be. I think that's a good debate to begin with -- why are Republicans so eager to avoid putting Gonzales under oath ? He's testifying as a fact witness, and his prior statements at issue -- including his false assuarances to Sen. Feingold at his confirmation hearings -- were under oath, so this testimony should be, too.
* * * * *
Feingold is doing exactly what he should be doing - creating a hostile and confrontational atmosphere, rather than a boringly congenial one where the Democrats meekly accept everything (see the Alito hearings). Feingold has been seriously heroic on several of these issues, and it is excellent to see him continuing that right from the beginning at these hearings.
* * * *
As I said last night, if you have hope for Specter's independence and objectivity, just make it easy on yourself and give up those hopes and accept that he is going to be a shill for the Administration. If you are looking for Republican scrutiny, look to Brownback and, to a lesser extent, to Graham.
* * *
Of course Gonzales begins his Opening Statement by quoting Osama bin Laden and Zawahri. We used to quote Madison, Jefferson and Lincoln to decide what the principles of our Government are going to be. Now we quote Al Qaeda. The Administration wants Al Qaeda and its speeches to dictate the type of Government we have. It is the centerpiece of everything they do and say.
* * * *
Gonzales is smug and thinks he can just spew the standard Bush talking points about defending the nation and Al Qaeda. I think he's going to have to do more work than that here (if he can) to satisfy the Senators.
Can someone please tell Arlen Specter that even if they're only eavesdropping on Al Qaeda members talking to Americans, it's still against the law to do it without warrants, and that it's exactly then when it would be incredibly easy to get warrants from the FISA court?
* * * *
Gonzales clearly said in his Press Conference with Gen. Hayden that they were told that they could not get the amendments to FISA they wanted. He's now falsely claiming that all he meant was that they couldn't get those amendments without disclosing national security secrets.
It's interesting how they keep having to "clarify" their statements becasue the statements they made statements which were false.
It's also ludicrous that FISA couldn't have been amended without disclosing operational details. Senators introduced amendments to amend FISA and the Administraiton supported certain of those amendments, and even proposed some of their own.
* * * *
Leahy's anger is excellent, real and poignant. As always, the Administration wants to imply that only they care about 9/11 and remember it. Leahy has had enough of that - he works in Washington every day, was in the Capitol when 9/11 happened, and everyone should be sick of the Administration's exploitation of 9/11 to defend itself politically. It looks like Leahy is.
* * * *
Leahy makes another crucial point - FISA was amended by the Patriot Act based on the requests of the Bush Administration - Democrats and Republicans got together in the wake of 9/11 to give the Administration everything they said they needed in amended FISA - and then he went and violated it anyway.
* * * *
How funny that Orrin Hatch seems to think that Congress has no right to restrict the President's eavesdropping powers. I wonder why he voted in 2001 to amend FISA to define the restrictions on the President's eavesdropping activities if Congress has no right to regulate them. Voting for FISA seems to be an odd thing to do for someone who believes that Congress has no right to regulate the Executive's eavesdropping activities.
* * * *
Michael DeWine thinks it's too bad that they violated the law, but since they did, maybe they would consider letting Congress change the law to make what they are doing legal. That's very nice and accomodating of him.
Gonzales thinks there's too much annoying paperwork (an inch thick!) to get FISA warrants, so they just didn't. What's the problem?
(I was in a meeting - sorry, I'm back to live blogging)
* * * *
So already Specter is wimping out on his "indpendence"?
ReplyDeleteWhy am I not surprised?
and gee . . . i wonder if sessions has his mind made up. hrmmmm
ReplyDeleteNot swearing him in. I want to scream.
ReplyDeleteThis is BS Glenn. What can they do about him being sworn in. can they ask him during their questioning if he wants to be sworn in. Or would Specter stop that line of questioning like he stopped leahy a couple minutes ago?
ReplyDeleteHey Lawyer crowd, what ahppens if EVERY questions ends with:
ReplyDelete"Is this how you would answer the question, if you were under oath"
They should have positioned his wife behind and to the left of Gonzales so that she could burst into tears if the questioning gets too tough.
ReplyDeleteI am sick of Jeff Sessions "testifying for witness. We can see how this hearing is going to go already. The Democrats will ask tough questions, the republicans will play stepford wives. This is already a sham.
ReplyDeleteRight on the money Glenn. Specter has never intended to conduct a fair hearing.
ReplyDeleteGiven Brownback's concerns, it was a bit presumptious of Specter to take him as a proxy vote to allow Abu G. not to be sworn in.
ReplyDeleteFeingold's approach was absolutely warranted. And Leahy's tone suggests that the Dems are prepped this time.
Sessions is a disgrace: where are his pom-poms?
why have the hearings if he is not sworn in?
ReplyDeleteThis is no longer the America I grew up in.This is madness I too want to scream this is not fair and balanced.
it looks like somebody got to Mr. Spector.
What happen to independant thinking?
Comments from Firedoglake haloscan swamp:
ReplyDeleteIf AG is questions, end evyer question with, "Is this how you would answer, if you were UNDER OATH?"
Frame re: oath
"What is the administration AFRAID OF?"
This is to counter the fear factro that the other side plays to craete the illusion of strength the takes facts off the table.
Here's a question: if its determined in these hearings that Gonzales did indeed deceive the Senate during his confirmation hearings, does the fact he isn't under oath here have an impact on any future action against him?
ReplyDeletejeez, can spector kiss alberto's ass anymore than he already has...he should "perjuror" to his long list of accomplishments!
ReplyDeletewho are the goons behind alberto? they look like the guys from the Matrix.
ReplyDeletei didn't realize Gonzales worked for Vinson & Elkins . . . Enron's lawyers. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteI am a liberal center-left Democrat who respects Arlen Specter.
ReplyDeleteAnd so is your wife, Morgan Fairchild.
My word, Gonzales is waving the bloody shroud, isn't he?
I am a liberal center-left Democrat who respects Arlen Specter.
ReplyDeleteIf this is for real, this is one of those people who claimed they despised Bush but voted for him anyway in 04 because the Democrats did not field a viable alternative. Never could articulate what that viable alternative would be....
But my money is on this being a Republican staffer having fun....
I seem to recall something about how testimony in front of a Senate committee is considered sworn testimony even if the witness isn't sworn in. In other words, you can't just blatantly lie to the Senate. But I can't remember the specifics. Help. Did I imagine this?
ReplyDeleteI am a liberal center-left Democrat who respects Arlen Specter.
ReplyDeleteFunny - I'm a blonde blue-eyed cheerleader at a small midwestern colleger who never thought she'd be writing to "Forum."
We really have a lot in common!
There was an article in Monday's FT, but not online, about the selling of Fear by the Busheviks. It explicitly had Luntz talking about having to frame the NSA listening as a "State Security" issue or they'd lose it to the Democrats.
ReplyDeleteLike this is just a political football and not the fundamental principles of the United States that we're talking about.
I am deeply disgusted with the Left's treatment of Specter and all other moderate Democrats and Republicans. It is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.
ReplyDeleteSo what IS productive, Holly?
Letting Gonzales lie his head off about illegal/unconstitutional activities by the Bush Administration?
I suppose being "productive" means giving Gonzales and an enabler like Specter a free ride.
Hm?
Glenn, Gonzalez is stating the same talking points you were debating with this morning on Cspan!
ReplyDeleteI am deeply disgusted with the Left's treatment of Specter and all other moderate Democrats and Republicans. It is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.
ReplyDeleteDefine, "productive."
It would violate "propriety" to swear Gonzales in? Good Lord...
ReplyDeleteGreat job on C-SPAN today Glenn. You were faced with a barrage of BS and some radical wingnut callers, but you got your message across!
My wife had a bad morning while drinking coffee in bed when I yelled and through the finger at the TV, "Swear the fucking liar in!" cleve
ReplyDeleteHolly...please. If Specter really thinks that there is no measurable difference between the penalties with an oath and without it, why not just administer the oath and avoid the controversy? Why would anyone object to it, if they were really interested in a fair hearing?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteIf this is for real, this is one of those people who claimed they despised Bush but voted for him anyway in 04 because the Democrats did not field a viable alternative. Never could articulate what that viable alternative would be....
That's right. Just mindlessly attack Holly, or anyone who doesn't follow the script of hating everyone who doesn't spew a strictly leftist line.
Notwithstanding that I have been commenting here nearly since the blog began, I have repeatedly been dismissed as a troll for deviating from moonbat dogma. I am glad that Alito was confirmed, and also pleased that the Democrats "meekly" failed to bork him.
The issues are quite different in this NSA matter, and very -- crucially -- important. They directly implicate serious questions of the rule of law and unchecked Executive power and lawlessness. My opposition to what Bush is doing would be the same if it were Gore doing it. I am certain that many here would either not be concerned if it were Gore's program (and a not insignificant number of former Carter or Clinton Admin members have defended this warrantless surveillance), or their opposition would be more tepid.
Enough of the purge mentality, already.
Oh no - did Gonzales really just say that we can shoot our enemies, therefore it is ridiculous to suggest we cannot wiretap them? How far off base in defining this issue can he be? Is this a high school debate competition?
ReplyDeleteHey Glenn, Hesiod here.
ReplyDeleteIf you are opn site, can you slip a note to the Democratic staff and ask that one of the Senators on the Democratic side ASK GONZALEZ to swear in during his or her turn to question him?
The worst that happens is that Specter blows a gasket and the whole dustup about how the GOP does not want Gonzalezx to testify under penalty of perjury becomes a nice TV moment for the Democrats.
No reason to make more of the swearing in issue. It is illegal to lie to Congress, period. Violating a sworn oath would mean two violations instead of one, but swearing in is mostly symbolic in Congressional testimony. Still, Feingold and Leahy were right to press the point as a matter of principle and then move on to the substantive matters.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Specter saying it would be a different story if Gonzales could show that it was "really true" that the only communications intercepted involve Al Queda, agents and affiliates? The question of legality is the same. Absolutely the same.
ReplyDeleteHolly writes: It would be FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans. Demonizers are driving away the people who donate their money and their time to Democratic candidates.
ReplyDeleteWell said. I'm an Independent libertarian, and altho I voted for Bush in '04 (but not in '00), I am so opposed to Bush and the GOP hegemony on multiple scores, that I want to vote for Democrats in '06. Give me some reasonable candidates, and that is what I will do.
Holly, apologies for any undue attacks on you, but with all due respect, I think you are 100% wrong. Similarly, should Obama et al participate in McCain's ethics/lobby reform committee? Imho, the Dems have zero to gain and a whole whack of political momentum (on both issues) to lose by conceding the high ground.
ReplyDelete@Holly:
ReplyDeleteRemember that Mr. Specter had raised a stink about H.R. 3199 (the PATRIOT Act bill), then happily touted the final "conference report", which Feingold, Sununu, etc., quickly--and correctly--identified as bunk. Specter was (likely) "reined in" (e.g. threatened with smear and political death) by Rove; but (lucky for us) the bill was filibustered and essentially left to die.
Your concerns about the extreme edge of the party marginalizing the party as a whole are not only valid, but shared by many moderate Democrats. The trouble with working with Republicans is that you don't know which ones have balls (read: are willing to stand up to Puppetmaster Rove) and which ones are K Street crack-whores (the Rove-DeLay kowtows).
---
Anyway, what's the f***ing point of these OBVIOUSLY scripted (at least on the Republican side) hearings? The ACLU could probably squeeze more out of the Gov't through their lawsuit in one day than Congress ever will. Besides, I've had enough of Gonzales' fear-mongering and his monotonous spewing of the Administration bullshit. He's a dodgy little pest, ain't he?
Congressional 'Hearings' are almost always dog & pony shows for political public-relations purposes.
ReplyDeleteThe party-in-power controls the event, with sometimes timid peeps from the minority-party ... if there's any controversy at all.
It is a very rare public hearing where any issue is seriously investigated or discussed -- this hearing will be routine... and a waste of time.
Sub Poena's might eventually extract a few facts, but it won't make any difference in Executive power and actions.
Maybe in 10-15 years the American public will belatedly be informed as to the extent of the crimes committed, but it will be Beltway business-as-usual, anyway.
Holly...
ReplyDeleteIt would be FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans. Demonizers are driving away the people who donate their money and their time to Democratic candidates.
Is that why Democratic Fundraising is at an all time high?
Oh by the way, if you can find a moderate Republican who hasn't been marginalized and trivialized by the Party, pin a tag on 'em - they're an endagered species.
Vyan
Consider several strands together. Illegal spying that finds an occasional naughty person. These persons are not able to EVER be tried in court because the evidence was gathered without legal warrants. ALL evidence against them subsequent to the initial illegal tap are poison fruits. What to do? What to do?
ReplyDeleteHow about those nice new KBR Detention Facilities that they have a contract to build around the USA? Yeah! That's the ticket! KBR detention facilities that are for "immigration emergencies and other future needs and programs". Surely indefinite detention of "enemy combatants" that cannot be tried in court is a good idea and part of a "future need and program"? Put anyone caught in the NSA illegal spying net into KBR Indefinite Detention Centers!
Well said. I'm an Independent libertarian, and altho I voted for Bush in '04 (but not in '00), I am so opposed to Bush and the GOP hegemony on multiple scores, that I want to vote for Democrats in '06. Give me some reasonable candidates, and that is what I will do.
ReplyDeleteYou sure you dindn't get that reversed? You voted for Bush in 2000 and against him in '04?
I sure hope so. Because any libertarian who voted for Bush in '04 is a fool.
Can someone please tell Arlen Specter that even if they're only eavesdropping on Al Qaeda members talking to Americans, it's still against the law to do it without warrants, and that it's exactly then when it would be incredibly easy to get warrants from the FISA court?
ReplyDeleteUnless, of course, there is a member of Al Qaeda on the FISA court! No wonder they didn't want to ask for warrants.
If Holly would be good enough to name a "moderate". Specter? Don't make me laugh; he's just another assministration puppet. Dancing at the end of the party string. The right destoyed their moderates. Those people don't exist in real way anymore. Oh, they'll "work with you" and then do whatever their party masters tell them to. Putting your hope in the "moderates" is foolish, and it's costing us our country.
ReplyDeleteWarren commission, part II.
ReplyDeleteIt would be FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans. Demonizers are driving away the people who donate their money and their time to Democratic candidates.
ReplyDeleteI agree, when some moderate republicans either stand up on two feet or get elected that may work. We have seen over and over agin, that working with the current band o'idiots leads to a knife in the back. Who are the demonizers? Those mean old dems or the hate mongering rethugs?
"i'm a uniter, not a divider" Which means, I guess, that he can't do more than simple math.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThis might be an opportune moment to review which of our Democratic Senators voted to confirm Abu Gonzales to his post as our Attorney General. (link below)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00003#top
I am certain that many here would either not be concerned if it were Gore's program (and a not insignificant number of former Carter or Clinton Admin members have defended this warrantless surveillance), or their opposition would be more tepid.
ReplyDeleteWhat former members of the Carter or Clinton Administrations?
Main point being, you can get any "member" of any administration to support one point or another. The fact is that the Carter and Clinton Administrations did not break the law, and it is not likely that a Gore Administration would have broken the law. This is just a feeble attempt to drag Clinton, Carter, and Gore into the same muck that most of the Bush Administration seems to be happily swimming in.
As for not voting for Democrats in 2006 if they're not "reasonable" enough, we have this thing called a "checks and balances" system, where (in theory) the different branches of government check each other and keep each other honest. It is obviously busted now. It will continue to be busted if you vote for Republicans. Something to think about.
Sheesh. And you wonder why you get "demonised". Voting for Bush in 00 but not 04 would be bad enough, but having seen him in action you oppose him so much that you voted for him?
ReplyDeleteYes, I would not have voted for John Kerry under any circumstances. Further, for many reasons relating to my jurisprudential philosophy, I tend to prefer GOP court appointments. (I'm not one to think that abortion and Roe are the only issues in the world.)
My illness with Bush/the GOP really kicked in during the Schiavo insanity, and has continued apace, not least because of this NSA matter. But none of that is the point.
If so many "progressives," Democrats, or however you wish to label yourselves are going to demonize anyone who might make common cause with you in areas of important mutual concern, then good luck with that. But I'm not playing, and Holly seems like a reasonable Democrat who won't either.
Hatch keeps flogging the In Re: Sealed Cases statement:
ReplyDelete"We take for granted that the President does have that authority
and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power."
Someone needs to point out that his is pure obiter dicta... the opinion continues... "The question before us is the reverse". The FISA Court never ever decided this issue. NO COURT has ever held that FISA cannot limit the executive.
What about the allegation that 18 usc 4001 (a) is a statue, like FISA, that would otherwise prohibit executive action?
ReplyDeleteWell said. I'm an Independent libertarian, and altho I voted for Bush in '04 (but not in '00), I am so opposed to Bush and the GOP hegemony on multiple scores, that I want to vote for Democrats in '06. Give me some reasonable candidates, and that is what I will do.
ReplyDeleteArlen Specter is the worst of all creatures - he pretends to believe in principles and ideas and then always gives in to political considerations and acts contrary to the principles he claims to believe in. Nobody can work with him.
We can and should work with principled conservatives who oppose the NSA program - and there are a lot of them. Specter is not one. He is a hollow empty man with no principles.
The argument the President Clinton asserted the same authority that Bush is now - is a red herring.
ReplyDeleteIn 1995 Physical Searches for Foreign Intelligence (which is what Clinton did) were not covered under FISA.
Also, Leahy blew it on Hamdi. Yes, Hamdi allowed for the detention of an American Citizen as an "Enemy Combatant" under the AUMF - but it also required judicial review of such a decision just as FISA requires a warrant.
Vyan
What former members of the Carter or Clinton Administrations?
ReplyDeleteCass Sunstein - Carter. John Schmidt - Clinton. And Andy McCarthy over at The Corner is touting the letter of some CO lawyer named Cunningham who was with the CIA during Clinton, and who has issued a letter to Congress vehemently supporting Bush in this matter. (It is deeply flawed for reasons that have been set forth well here and at sites like Volokh.)
That was me as anon on the Warren comment(Mr.Murder).
ReplyDeletePerhaps while there you could ask Arlen Specter about a company closely involved with the Warren Commission.
SCI is the number four leading contributor lifetime to AWOL Bush. SCI owned the Funeral Home that provided the restorative expert and accompanied Kennedy's body to the Airport in Dallas. The restorative man flew with the plane back to Maryland.
Arlem Specter knows these facts from having participated in the Warren Commission.
SCI also overbilled FEMA for falsely claimed fatalties in Florida and has lost count of many bodies in NOLA including ones marked and noted to authorities.
Dig a little deeper on Specter. He's a fucking vampire of the worst order.
Pulse the lines, have someone mention these people. Guess who transfers bodies of people killed in renditions and interrogations? SCI subsdiaries, see also NOLA.
jus' sayin'
a belated Thank You Glen for all your work on this. You were so steady and clear on C Span this a.m.
ReplyDeleteHolly and others, I too apologize for any undue attacks on you - AND
13 months ago, Rove put his hands around Specter's neck and shoved his face out over the 'Loss of Your Chairmanship' abyss - hence his unprincipled abandonment of 'choice' in Alito hearings and now this morning's roll over. A simple but tragic case of Ego/Vanity trumping Country.
hey Glenn,
ReplyDeletethanks for your lucid and insightful analysis on the wiretap and other issues. Listened to you spank prof. Turner on C-Span streaming from Canberra, Australia. Good late-night listening!
- analihilator, AU
...he pretends to believe in principles and ideas and then always gives in to political considerations and acts contrary to the principles he claims to believe in.
ReplyDeleteAnd always at the very last minute, after spending days and days on TV talking very gruffly about how he plans on upholding those principles and ideas.
Just curious, but if he believes that executive power is boundless in this regard, has Gonzales ever said what purpose he thinks the FISA court actually serves, if not for domestic surveillance warrants?
ReplyDeleteOT, but:
I have repeatedly been dismissed as a troll for deviating from moonbat dogma.
Or maybe it's because people really don't like to have their political positions denigrated as "moonbat dogma," or be described as "moonbats." Ya think?
(And this was said in opposition to mindless attack, apparently without irony.)
In response to any testimony that the President has constitutional authority to violate FISA, or that FISA is unconstitutional, the Senators should ask the witnesses to read which provision of the constitution supports their position. And then, in response, the Senators should read the following constitutional provisions from which it is obvious that Congress has the clear unambiguous authority to regulate the war-time, national defense and law enforcement activities of the government and the President must obey those laws.
ReplyDeleteArticle I
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to . . .
provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;
To define and punish . . . offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, . . . and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies,
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states [not the President] respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
by contast the President has the following authority:
Article II
The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States,
he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed,
[and the punchline:]
The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
If anyone would actually read the constutition on what powers Congress has versus what powers the President has, the argument that the President has constitutional authority to violate FISA is laughable. On the contrary the constitution clearly grants to the congress much more power regarding defense/wartime/military authorities and states in many ways that the President must obey those law (on pain of impeachcment).
Cute move on Specter's part pointing out the family member of a September 11th victim in the audience. Pretty illustrative of the republicans' strategy on this issue. Irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteGlenn writes:
ReplyDeleteWe can and should work with principled conservatives who oppose the NSA program - and there are a lot of them. Specter is not one. He is a hollow empty man with no principles.
I'm not disputing that, and you are better positioned than I am to know what can be expected of him in this NSA matter. And you have made clear that some serious questioning can be expected from Sens. Brownback and likely also Graham -- both Republicans.
But if Holly disagrees she should not be attacked, and if she thinks demonizing anyone who is not in the left/progressive/Democrat fold is objectionable, I'm totally on board with that.
Gonzales' saying that when detention of American citizens was "ok'd" it is the same as "spying" was ok'd is not correct. (I'm paraphrasing here).
ReplyDeleteYou are uncomfortably aware of being detained.
You are not aware of any eavesdropping.
Cute move on Specter's part pointing out the family member of a September 11th victim in the audience. Pretty illustrative of the republicans' strategy on this issue. Irrelevant.
ReplyDelete.... more on this. Now they have her speaking to the media, thronged by republicans, talking about how vital this program is. I am going to scream. There is no level to which these people will not stoop - using victims in this way is reprehensible.
I'd like to hear:
ReplyDeletewhat assurances did you give the telcos and isps that connecting the NSA directly to their switches was a legal requirment?
9/11 widow as a prop during the break???????
ReplyDeleteShameless redefined.
Glenn, Gonzalez is stating the same talking points you were debating with this morning on Cspan!
ReplyDeleteOh goody, keep an ear out for when he talks about Al Qaeda code messages in Viagra spam.....
I am in a state of shock. I'm a Republican, but I never thought I'd live to see the day when someone who represents the American people would refuse to be sworn in. As far a I am concerned, that discredits each and every word that Gonzales says from now on. A man of honor with nothing to hide would have INSISTED that he be sworn in. Watching a group of partisan bullies override a legitimate request to have a witness sworn in was painful beyond belief. Specter is a disgrace. The most reprehensible person is the one who wears a mask of impartiality but in fact has no interest in the truth. Sessions is another disgrace. The only conclusion I can reach is that from now on, whatever party is in power, I will vote for Representatives and Senators from the opposite party. One party rule can no longer protect freedom in this country, as partisanship has trumped a desire to seek the truth.
ReplyDeletei called senator grahams office as soon as the vote was taken about whether gonzales should be sworn and reminded him that VOTERS are watching these hearings.
ReplyDeletebr3n
Hypatia, I respect Bob Barr for his stance on the NSA spying, and civil liberties in general.
ReplyDeleteThis is despite the fact that I strongly disagreed with the Clinton impeachment, in which he played a major part.
I agree with the contempt heaped on Specter here, the man is a hollow nothing, posturing when necessary but in the end with no principles.
When I see a "moderate" Republican siding with Barr on this issue, for the sake of their country, I will respect and honor them for it.
But so far the so-called "moderates" have been largely loyal foot-soldiers for this WH's incredible power grab.
Grassley wants to talk about a leak investigation.
ReplyDeleteHe compares the NSA program disclosure to Plame's disclosure: "presumed disclosures of the identity of a CIA agent... to me that's a 2-bit nothing compared to this..."
Why doesn't Grassley care about the protection of our vital NOCs and intelligence assets? As opposed to the fruitless NSA program, Plame and our other spies actually get things done.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/roberts.fisa.unconstitutional.pdf
ReplyDeleteRoberts states: FISA unconstitutional
http://balkin.blogspot.com/roberts.fisa.unconstitutional.pdf
ReplyDeletesorry-here's right address
Hyapatia sez: If so many "progressives," Democrats, or however you wish to label yourselves are going to demonize anyone who might make common cause with you in areas of important mutual concern, then good luck with that. But I'm not playing...
ReplyDeleteRemember that verb "demonize" the next time to feel the need to channel Michelle Malkin and screech about "moonbat dogma." Meanwhile, aren't there more interesting discussions for you over at Lew Rockwell?
http://balkin.blogspot.com/roberts.fisa.unconstitutional.pdf
ReplyDeletehttp://balkin.blogspot.com/roberts.fisa.unconstitutional.pdf
unconstitional.pdf
OOOOH! Biden's question about why only international calls was surprizingly good. Gonzales' answer was farcical. If it's not a question of PR or legality - why was the decision made NOT to wiretap non-international calls? Why?
ReplyDeletethe AG just challenged Biden's patriotism - anyone catch that? if Biden had been smarter, he would have gotten really pissed off. [not that i think Biden is all so wonderful.]
ReplyDeletehttp://balkin.blogspot.com/roberts.fisa.unconstitutional.pdf
ReplyDeletel.pdf
Thank you, Senator Biden.
ReplyDeleteWhen will the war on terror end?
"As long as any of [the al-Qaeda splinter groups] were there, I'm sure you would assert that you had this plenary authority."
My last comment disappeared Glenn, did you outsource the job to Brady @ WaPo ?
ReplyDeleteMy initial post was a Big Thanks to Glenn for all your work on this and for your clear and steady appearance on C Span this a.m.
Holly and Others, I, too apologize for any undue attacks on you AND
Want to remind everyone that just a year ago Rove shoved Specter's face out over the "You're Gonna Lose Your Chairmanship" abyss - hence the esteemed Senator's unprincipled abandonment of 'choice' on Alito, and his rolling over w/Abu.
This is a simple case of Ego/Vanity trumping Country
disappointment & complaints about the republican family member coverage should be directed at c-span.
ReplyDeleteone other note: glenn -- my husband and i saw you this a.m. on the above mentioned c-span, dismayed of course at the type of attacks hurled your way -- not on your explanation of the law but on your character.
i for one think you deserve a medal of thanks, if none other than for keeping a straight face when the professor put the fear of osama into viagra spam.
i thought the viagra spam threat was the fear of orgasma.
shoot, back to the drawing board.
This "war" is metaphorical only. A resolution to use force is not the same thing as declaring war, ist it? Why don't they go after Gonzales on this?
ReplyDeleteAlso, there are plenty of laws that show that this effort is illegal, cf. Geoffrey Stone's postings at the Uof Chicago Law School blog.
Biden blew it on his summation. Just like Specter suggesting if this was just Al Qaeda it would be a different question, Biden suggesting that if we were "guaranteed" that it was only international calls and if only those involving terrorists it would somehow be a different analysis does NOT address the question of legality. These people need a basic lesson in establishing a prima facie case of illegality.
ReplyDeleteThe administration and Congress acted "in concert" on this ???? *Their* interpretation of the authorization to use force (post hoc that is) was a mandate from Congress??
ReplyDeleteThe law is what we tell you it is, people.
Been there, done that in 1975.
ReplyDelete---------------------
The CHAIRMAN. Now, ordinarily, the executive does not decide such basic matters. Ordinarily, as in the case of the CIA, an agency of this importance finds its fundamental power derived from legislation. Suppose for example we had a President, we cannot be so certain what kinds of things may happen in this country, suppose we had a President one day who would say to you: "I have determined with my advisers, who are my appointees, that foreign intelligence is seamless and it is quite impossible to differentiate between domestic and foreign intelligence because we need to know it all, and some of it we can gather from domestic sources. And so, in the overriding interest of obtaining the maximum amount of foreign intelligence you are instructed to intercept messages between Americans that are purely domestic and various agencies of the Government will furnish you with lists of people whose messages you are to intercept -- all without warrant, all without any judicial process, all without any sanction in the law."
Now, under those circumstances, is there anything in the present law that would permit you to say we cannot do this, Mr. President, and we refuse to do it because it is illegal?
43
General ALLEN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What provision is there in the law?
General ALLEN. It is my understanding that the interpretations which deal with the right to privacy of unreasonable search and seizure of the fourth amendment.
http://www.crazylinux.net/downloads/articles/echelon/nsa-4th.htm
Glen,
ReplyDeleteYou made us proud today.
You gotta' love Jon Kyl's point of view...
He wants to be sure that the government is doing enough domestic spying on Americans to make sure that terrorists already in the country are stopped.
Who would have thought that a US Senator would make a public case for spying on all Americans.
Isn’t it wonderful that we have this excellent NSA issue to write about while we wait for the NYT to tell us what we think about the Cartoon War? Frankly, at first it seemed an open and shut case for Freedom of Speech. I even posted a few strong comments before I noticed that the NYT was not saying anything. So I checked my favorite left blogs. Nothing much there either. Then I checked on a couple of winger blogs. Oh my God! What they are saying about multiculturism! I started several comments to let them know what for, but I got all confused. If I put Freedom of Speech next to Multiculturism and try to make things fit on the Cartoon War issue.... well, where is the Times when you need her? I just don’t know what to think. So, I guess I’ll just stick to the NSA issue for now. The Times has made that one very clear. Oh please, please. I hope the Times speaks soon on the Cartoon War. I am so confused.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Republican, but I never thought I'd live to see the day when someone who represents the American people would refuse to be sworn in.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like this is the first time it's happened. These people are never sworn in if they can help it.
"If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear." I guess that logic only applies to citizens.
Personally, I think the President should be under oath in all public statements, from the moment he takes office until he leaves.
I think the time stamps reflect Rio's time zone.
ReplyDeleteIt was obvious the fix was in from the moment there was no oath...
ReplyDeleteGood questions from Kohl on the legislative process. There were three options: stick within FISA, ask for FISA to be amended... and then there's what you did, act beyond the statute. Why did you go with door number three?
ReplyDeleteKohl asks: "Is there anything that a President cannot do in time of war to protect the country?"
Did Gonzales really say 'if we can shoot our enemies we should be able to wiretap them'?
ReplyDeleteSomeone needs to point out to him that we can wiretap our enemies, legally, and without warrants. What we can't wiretap without warrants is "U.S. persons". Is Gonzales claiming the right to shoot US citizens?
"Judgement made that this was an appropriate line to draw (no domestic wiretapping of Al Qaeda) . . . think of the public outrage."
ReplyDeleteKeep exposing him. Don't let them turn this into a reason to expand the program (as Kyl would), but expose it for the hypocrisy that it is.
In making his case against the Bush surveillance program, he [Geoffrey Stone] quotes the relevant case in the controversey as being United States v. United States District Court (Keith), decided in 1972.
ReplyDeleteProviding the relevant passages from the ruling, I note the following quote that appears in the ruling:
"...History abundantly documents the tendency of Government - however benevolent and benign its motives - to view with suspicion those who most fervently dispute its policies. Fourth Amendment protections become the more necessary when the targets of official surveillance may be those suspected of unorthodoxy in their political beliefs. The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect ‘[national] security.’”
This seems to ne issue that is not being covered here. Indeed, Gonzales says that Keith supports his view.
R. Portoffinna writes:Or maybe it's because people really don't like to have their political positions denigrated as "moonbat dogma," or be described as "moonbats." Ya think?
ReplyDeleteFair enough, but I have been frustrated with -- disgusted by, actually -- admonitions that: Glenn should ban me from the forum, that I am a troll, and that I should go back to LGF where it is purported I come from. (Notwithstanding that I have repeatedly denounced the comments at LGF as a sewer.) That sort of positioning is appropriately described as moonbat, and where wingnuts congregate, I call it as I see it there as well.
|
ReplyDelete|
What 'right' does the 4th Amendment gurantee ??
"Just called a fascist and the WARRANT word was mentioined."
ReplyDeleteI want to marry that man. Nice to see that the public has *some* voice in this hearing.
Someone needs to kick DeWine and tell him that subsequent remedial legislation does not get rid of the debate. It is not okay to break the law. Period. Regardless of whether the law is subsequently amended to allow your previously illegal activity.
Listening to "Abu Al" today and keeping in mind some of his strangely phrased comments on Larry King, I think there is *another* program at the NSA that may be more wide ranging in its converage. When asked why if they were listening to "Al Qaeda to Al Qaeda conversations in the US" he said "not under this program."
ReplyDeleteGlenn: This is a farce. The moment Gonzales didn't have to go under oath it became "a visit" with the committee, just like the President's "visit" with the 9/11 Commission farce.
ReplyDeleteploeg writes: Main point being, you can get any "member" of any administration to support one point or another. The fact is that the Carter and Clinton Administrations did not break the law, and it is not likely that a Gore Administration would have broken the law. This is just a feeble attempt to drag Clinton, Carter, and Gore into the same muck that most of the Bush Administration seems to be happily swimming in.
ReplyDeleteI don't take well to ill-informed characterizations of what I am ostensibly attempting to do. The fact is, I have spent a significant amount of time arguing this NSA issue with Bush-supporters at other sites, and they are quick to champion that Cass Sunstein, who was in the Carter DoJ, and John Schmidt from Clinton's, have come out in support of Bush's warrantless surveillance. Several other Democrats have as well.
Hugh Hewitt probably has a prayer room with a picture of Bush before which he lights votive candles. And he was DELIGHTED to have Sunstein -- now a prof of Con Law of great repute -- on his radio show elaborating on why what Bush is doing is legal. Such incidences of liberal Democrat lawyers supporting this NSA program do, indeed, make it harder to argue with the Bush supporters.
It would be FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans. Demonizers are driving away the people who donate their money and their time to Democratic candidates.
ReplyDeleteYou mean those "moderate" Republicans and Democrats that approved Alito to the court?
You mean those "moderate" Republicans and Democrats that don't care about women's rights?
You mean those "moderate" Republicans and Democrats that don't care about the rights of individuals?
You mean those "moderate" Republicans and Democrats that don't care about the rights of minorities?
You mean those "moderate" Republicans and Democrats that don't care about the rights of gay people?
Please.
You live in a fantasy world if you believe that ANY representative in Congress is "moderate".
They're all the same.
None of them represent the people, they only represent what's in their best interest.
Get a clue, "moderate".
I've linked to and plugged your liveblogging here. I'll keep checking back as the day goes on to see what you have. Thanks for doing this.
ReplyDeleteI can't wait untill Feingold chews him up.
ReplyDeleteDid Al just say that they've never argued that AUMF overrode or amended FISA? Is that just bald face mendacity or am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, Orrin Hatch, my very own wingnut Senator. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that comes out of this jackass' mouth makes sense only to him. We'll call him on it, at least the 40% of us that actually care. But we know how the other 60% of Utahns, um "think" (Sheesh, that was hard to type!) ergo that's why he's still in office.
ReplyDeleteSheepies do as sheepies does.
Hatch does seem to be exhibiting some kind of dementia lately, anyone else notice this?
AG keeps on saying "the program that I am talking about". He uses it as a qualifier, and doesn't define it. Is there some other program that we don't know about, something that wasn't leaked to the press, that the President has authorized that falls outside of FISA?
ReplyDeleteSessions reminds me of nothing so much as Jon Stewart imitating the fawning press . . . "Isn't this all a bunch of hooo haw" "Gosh sir, it sure is".
ReplyDeleteGonzales himself almost laughed when Sessions brought up security at the Super Bowl.
nobody writes: Remember that verb "demonize" the next time to feel the need to channel Michelle Malkin and screech about "moonbat dogma." Meanwhile, aren't there more interesting discussions for you over at Lew Rockwell?
ReplyDeleteMalkin and her minions are wingnuts. But some who post here are moonbats, who have espoused very extreme conspiracy theories, and when I make arguments they don't like, one even implored Glenn to ban me. (Not that I think for even a nanosecond Glenn would do that; I am revolted by such Stalinist requests no matter how unlikely they are to be realized.)
As to Lew Rockwell, I am not a paleo-conservative or paleo-libertarian, and neither do I countenance those who, as Rockwell does, promote sick Dominionists like Gary North.
Feinstein was good: Can the President then suspend Posse Comitatus? Engage in illegal propaganda?
ReplyDeleteGonzales' answer: that's tricky.
I'm surprised that the question periods, so far, are so clearly divided along party lines. The Republicans have not been interested in questioning what the administration has done. I emailed my Senator, Hatch, about it. I don't understand why this isn't a bipartisan concern.
whale shaman writes: i for one think you deserve a medal of thanks, if none other than for keeping a straight face when the professor put the fear of osama into viagra spam.
ReplyDeleteYes, that was one of Prof. Turner's more compelling points, and caused me to change my mind entirely, given how much pen1s enhancement spam I receive -- I had not realized it was probably from Al Qaeda. Nor had I realized that Congress is incapable of legislating to control AQ Viagra spam, and that only ignoring Congress and violating the law can solve the Viagra spam problem.
Folks, there's got to be "another program" we haven't heard about yet. Abu's repetitive use of that phrase can lead to no other conclusion. WHAT IS THE OTHER PROGRAM???????
ReplyDeleteSession's point about searches of property under the Clinton administration should be followed up. If it was a proper exercise of constitutional authority at the time, *but* (as Gonzales noted) FISA was subsequently amended to include property searces, does that not mean that FISA was responding to this situation and implicitly addressing any constitutionality issue? If not, then the amendment is moot - Clinton had the power before, and he had it after because the statute impinged upon his constitutional authority according to Gonzales' rationale defending Bush's authority.
ReplyDeleteThe vagueness and contradictions in the admin's justifications of its behavior is part of the problem that was supposed to be solved by having our laws, you know, uh written. With this program, we aren't just reverting to pre-1776, or even pre-1215, we're back to pre-2050 B.C.! (For that ref, which I had to look up, see Ur-Nammu).
ReplyDeleteWait until she discovers that the CIA funded the "pilots" that "crashed into the pentagon" and that our government was complicit in the attacks. Surprise.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.question911.com/links.php
HEY LISTEN UP
ReplyDeleteI have a question to nail ABU G
"Has congress been briefed on all spying programs, including any others which might be occuring outside of the NSA wiretaps under discussion today?"
Thanks,
Marky
The "family member" also wrote an opinion piece in today's NY Post.
ReplyDeleteAbu almost collapsed on the "domestic to domestic" question. Completely lost his focus and looked confused. Had to then clarify after a memo from a staffer. Looks like there may be something there......
So we're trying to figure out the "legality" of a program we KNOW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT -- talk about putting the cart before the horse.
ReplyDeleteAnd no Senator is representing their constituents as they ought to, if they simply "accept" what AG Gonzales claims the program does, in general outline, without any PROOF whatsoever being provided.
So far what the AG has claimed is, as Glenn has noted, a screamingly easy sell to the FISA Court for pre-eavesdrop and/or post-eavesdrop WARRANTS. So what the BLAZES is the problem with adhering to FISA???
ESPECIALLY as that route SAFEGUARDS evidence for future trials, as well as the individuals undertaking the eavesdropping, if order to use an "abundance of caution" for such weighty matters, as Special Counsel Fitzgerald might put it.
But overall, it is basically impossible to address more than the bare fact that WARRANTS are both required and apparently a cakewalk as well -- so why the fight to avoid them? Other discussion about the domestic aspects, or not, of this program depend on the details of it, which are UNKNOWN to the Legislature and to the Judiciary.
And Leahy needs to finish pinning the AG down on when the Executive Branch legal decision was made to justify this NSA program, vs. the separate date when the President gave the go-ahead, and vs. the date when the program went into actual operation.
And these ten-minute segments are utterly asinine. They aren't enough time to make any sort of effective questioning possible. Just a "coincidence" of course, I'm sure...
I just want to be sure I understand what is going on:
ReplyDeleteGonzales does not have to be sworn in on matters of national security, the oil barons did not have to be sworn on matters relating to enormous profits in the face of 3 buck a gallon gas, but BASEBALL PLAYERS had to be sworn in as to whether they were using steroids, for which the MLB HAD NO RULES governing their use before the hearings were held?
God bless the Republican leadership in congress - Whatta bunch of morons...
Mr. Pajamas Media/Powerline blogger, you are no Glenn Greenwald.
ReplyDeleteSounds like Specter's brain is a good example of the "Single Neuron Theory."
ReplyDelete(... and if you don't catch the reference to Specter's role in the cover-up that was the Warren Commission's inquiry into JFK's assassination, you're just too young, is all!)
Cynic Librarian - What you said -
ReplyDeleteKatz v United States -
(my emphasis)
Justice Powell for the Court, was a question which derived much of its answer from the warrant clause; except in a few narrowly circumscribed classes of situations, only those searches conducted pursuant to warrants were reasonable. The Government's duty to preserve the national security did not override the gurarantee that before government could invade the privacy of its citizens it must present to a neutral magistrate evidence sufficient to support issuance of a warrant authorizing that invasion of privacy. 1. 153 This protection was even more needed in ''national security cases'' than in cases of ''ordinary'' crime, the Justice continued, inasmuch as the tendency of government so often is to regard opponents of its policies as a threat and hence to tread in areas protected by the First Amendment as well as by the Fourth. 154 Rejected also was the argument that courts could not appreciate the intricacies of investigations in the area of national security nor preserve the secrecy which is required. 155
Daily Kos has it right. If AG is arguing that the President has inherent powers over and above FISA to eavesdrop without warrant on international/domestic calls, why didn't he use that to eavesdrop on the far more relevant domestic to domestic calls? This is the big thing that has come out of the hearings so far. Doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteAG just did it again. Said "the kind of program that I am discussing here today." Why doesn't Leahy ask "Are there any other programs which you are not discussing that this panel doesn't know about?"
ReplyDeleteTrying to email Specter - appears to be jammed. Perhaps others are trying to do the same. Let's hope.
ReplyDelete"We can and should work with principled conservatives who oppose the NSA program - and there are a lot of them. Specter is not one. He is a hollow empty man with no principles."
ReplyDeleteExactly so - and their pretended *bipartisanship* and *objectivity* merely belies a pre-determined result already crafted from the political arm of their party.
I suspect Lindsey Graham of similar such leanings. Pretend to blow and bluster and take a brave stand on any issue while pulling the rug out from beneath it with a wink and a folksy smile.
These are NOT principled Conservatives. They merely want the cover of Democratic voices to do what they have previously done - and lock out any dissenting and questioning principles people from effectual resistance to their high-handed actions and providing excuses for a Power Hungry bAdmin.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNo reason to make more of the swearing in issue. It is illegal to lie to Congress, period. Violating a sworn oath would mean two violations instead of one, but swearing in is mostly symbolic in Congressional testimony. Still, Feingold and Leahy were right to press the point as a matter of principle and then move on to the substantive matters.
1:24 PM"
Aside from the fact that the refusal of the chairman to have the witness "sworn in" esentially made the hearing useless,the Republican's have displayed a propensity to not understand what a lie is. The usual accommodation of Bush Administration is "the President was misunderstood".
The usual Lock-step of the right side of the panel speaks loud and clear.
Clare Boothe--Thanks for the quote. Do you have any remarks on how Gonzalez can say that Keith supports his argument for the legality of this program?
ReplyDeleteSuppose the 'potestor' is just a ratfucker? PJM there already, let in some trolls to act the role they claim libs fulfill... etc.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know Pajamas Media and PowerLine were in cahoots. I know PowerLine and LGF are righties...but I thought Pajamas Media *posed* as liberals.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how David Corn feels now about joining them.
Pajamas Media has never pretended to be liberal - and even if they tried, the fact that they were founded by the creator of notorious hate site Little Green Footballs would have rendered such a ruse transparent.
As for Corn, I think he knew exactly what he was getting into.
Hypatia said:
ReplyDeleteYes, that was one of Prof. Turner's more compelling points, and caused me to change my mind entirely, given how much pen1s enhancement spam I receive --
hypatia,
what's wrong with your penis?
McClellan cited the 9/11 Commission report during his press conference just and Bush has also cited it recently. They always forget this part, though...
ReplyDelete"This shift of power and authority to the government calls for an enhanced system of checks and balances to protect the precious liberties that are vital to our way of life. We therefore make three recommendations. ..."
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch12.htm
I love Russ Feingold, I am so proud he is my Senator, Kohl is OK too , but Feingold walks the walk. He is my hope for the next President of the USA,(if we can get rid of Diebold)maybe he can run with John Conyers that would be sweet. ...he is great on the environment too.
ReplyDeleteGreat blog by the way , I just discovered you today,
I am a C-span junkie, and always will be.
Keep Hope Alive
I think Graham is ready to rock himself right of his chair. He's asking some good questions though. I have to admit, I'm impressed. Even though he's couching his comments in terms of finding "a better way" - he's pushing some important issues. Of course, if Gonzales could smirk a bit less that'd suggest that he's actually interested in responding.
ReplyDeleteGraham made some surprisingly good questions about how he sees the inherent authority argument, e.g., the President can overturn the McCain Amendment if it impedes the war effort.
ReplyDeletecynic librarian -
ReplyDeletere: Keith, No.
am not an atty, but was so struck by the prescience of the Justices back in 68 and 72, just as I always am by that of the Founders.
btw, Graham is taking my analogy about how military folks must always follow lawful orders and can face courts martial for failure to do so, regardless of how positive the outcome of their disobedience or countermanding.
Aarrgghh!
In applying Bush's Commander in Chief status, is he subject to military discipline for failure to obey a lawful order ?
comey wasnt about this "program"
ReplyDeletethis really raises the question then what program was it?
br3n
Abu just said that "the client" is the President of the U.S. In his position of Attorney General, aren't "we the people" his client??
ReplyDeleteGreat blogging!
ReplyDelete...or is the Pres his client when he's wearing his White House Counsel hat, but not when he's wearing his A.G. hat?
ReplyDeleteActually, I wish he WOULD wear a hat, one with a bill long enough to cover up his omnipresent, inappropriate smile!
Oh, God, now Cornyn! Do we mythical little people have to hear his pontifications?
synesthete, he no longer wears the White House Counsel hat. That is our favorite Supreme Court Justice nominee.
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain why Gonzales doesn't have to recuse himself from exploring legal issues in a program he helped create? To whom does the Attorney General answer?
Another Texas tool , well oiled.
ReplyDeletehypatia,
ReplyDeletewhat's wrong with your penis?
Everything. It is missing entirely, filling me with angst-ridden envy. The spammers who seek to help me are clever; the avoid filters by spelling the word "pen1s." So, it is easy to see how Al Qaeda could do so, too, and why Bush therefore cannot obey a duly enacted law of congress.
Gonzalez keeps making these same distinctions, that his answers relate only to "the program we are discussing today", and "the program the President has confirmed", and not to any other programs. He said that Comey or any others who raised concerns were not related to this program but to "other procedures". Strongly implies there are other programs beyond what the AG has decided are the acceptable limits of debate for this hearing.
ReplyDeleteAlso he refused to answer whether any calls beginning and ending within the US have been intercepted.
Is anyone else seeing pieces of Glenn's post appear and disappear?
ReplyDeleteYes, mostly disappear. I can't get anything after the Hatch update. And I can only see about 80% of the number of comments supposedly posted.
Blogger has been causing trouble in the last few days, and one blog that got an Instalanche was down for the 12 hours immediately afterwards. That would piss a person off.
....synesthete, he no longer wears the White House Counsel hat....
ReplyDeleteI know, but I thought he might be answering some of these questions based on advice he gave in that capacity and some on the basis of decisions made in his new job as MY attorney general.
Either way, I'd say he's a "useful tool." Go Durbin!
OK. The evidence is in. When Feingold asked AG point blank whether there are has been any warrentless domestic to domestic spying, AG refused to answer. Obviously, if there had been warrants, it would have been legal and not an issue. So now we have it. This "program" everyone is talking about is a sideshow. The real issue is the domestic to domestic illegal eavesdropping, opening of mail, email monitoring, etc. that it appears is going on. And we will never know about that unless a whistleblower alerts the press, just as we would never have known about this international warrantless eavesdropping if it hadn't been leaked, since nobody has any "standing" to bring this issue to the SC. I wish Glen would comment on this point.
ReplyDeletedurbin put it on the line. finally, someone who can think clearly and talk it too.
ReplyDeleteTo all those who thought that Arlen Specter traded Sam Alito on the bench so that he could hold these hearings (in place of them taking place on Pat Roberts' Intel Committee) and bring this administration to heel (and would not be running a farcical white wash) will find themselves with egg on their faces.
ReplyDeleteWhen it begins with Specter letting Gonzales testify unsworn, it bodes ill.
Here are some facts that Glenn Greenwald (not his fault) didn't get to address this morning on C-Span:
The NSA has been giving information that its' mined to other government agencies for us - like the FBI. So, if the NSA discovers through this warrantless spying on Americans of illegal acts such as those dealing in drugs, or "I didn't declare it in my taxes," the NSA is passing it to other agencies for them to use in leaning on American citizens.
Advisors to Bush have interpretted that even the listening that they're doing under FISA guidelines goes like this:
The NSA can listen for up to 72 hours and if they decide to stop and not monitor beyond that 72 hours, they don't need to notify the FISA court. The NSA may, however, begin a new 72 hour monitoring on the same subject, still not required to notify FISA unless they want to continue, no stops, the spying.
The rule of law has been suspended in the U.S. for this administration. They believe that they aren't required to obey the law, and since this is a "long war" (decades), the USA is now a police state where American citizens can be arrested, kidnapped, refused access to counsel, and transported out of the country to black sites, underground prisons to be tortured and killed, like Operation Brightlight, where people are never seen again.
This is this darkest day in our nation's history, and I'm listening to the lying m*therf*cking bastard of an Attorney General testify that "All the other Presidents did it!"
Is there anybody who doubts that if anything comes out of these hearings, it will be laws ALLOWING Bush to continue to do exactly what he's doing, using whatever this program is to continue to spy on anyone, anywhere, foreign nationals and Americans, in international space and in domestic space. With fine print on new legislation saying, "and anything else the President has in mind that we, the Congress, can't imagine," and (in Willie Wonka-ese), "and everything else that may come up to get Democrats' panties in a twist."
This is where it was going in the weeks leading up to these hearings. "The President didn't go to Congress for expanded laws because he was told that he wouldn't get what he wanted" was where we were when the news of the NSA's illegal spying on Americans came out. That got met with (from both Democrats and Republicans - Dick Durbin is just now saying it again in his question to Gonzalez), "We've never denied this President anything," which left Rove to let Bush out of his cage these past few weeks to push the fear and panic buttons in Americans.
This is how we got here, to this point, where Arlen Specter is hosting a koffee klatsch, "no oaths, we're all men of honor," to discuss and put to rest all of the "petty concerns" of Democrats.
And to set the stage for Congress overturning whatever is left of posse comitatus.
They get away with this because we're here, managable, watching it on TV, when we should be marching on the Capitol.
When Americans are willing to get off our fat, complacent asses and put their bodies in between camera wielding news media and the politicians who represent us, then the Arlen Specters of the Senate will do the right thing, perform the oversight required of Congress of the Executive, and stop the corruption.
Why is it that Gonzales and others in the administration can talk in generalities about how successful the plan has been but can't talk about operational details of the plan? They can make statements that support their position, but then refuse to provide any information to verify them. And, oh, by the way, success does not make the program legal.
ReplyDeletegonzalez admitted it's not a war! then how can he appeal to presidential practices "at war" to justify this wiretapping? is anyone gonna point up this clear contradiction?
ReplyDeleteYes, Carrie -
ReplyDeleteGlenn's comments about "I've-had-enough" Leahy have disappeared. A couple of points he made, I believe, aren't there now.
Thank you, Lindsey Graham. I take it back - you surprised me. That UniformCodeofMilitaryJustice just may be the clincher for the irrationality of this argument that fighting a war unties the President's "peacetime" hands. Tell that to the soldiers getting court martialed for disobeying the UCMJ...
I think Lindsey Graham may have pulled off the best 10-minutes of the hearing so far.. [on behalf of We, The People and our Constitution, that is].
And Senator Brownback: Thank YOU for calling it the "War on Terrorism"... I was starting to wonder if the The War on Anger or The War on Rage might be our next "adventure"..
okay, let me get this straight. this administration who is committed to doing whatever it takes to combat terror has neither (a) considered appropriate means for domestic surveillance of Al Qaeda members (I mean if FISA is too burdensome for international surveillance, certainly it's hindering their domestic surveillance) or (b) spent any time pondering legislative proposals that would assist in the war on terror (in response to Brownback's question about what more the Congress could do -- "I'll have to get back to you).
ReplyDelete1) He claims FISA says "Except by statute" meaning, they can wiretapp without a warrant AS LONG AS A STATUTE EXISTS TO ALLOW IT.
ReplyDelete2) He claims that the AUF is THAT STATUTE.
3) We point out that the AUF HAS NO SUCH LANGUAGE TO OVERRIDE FISA.
4) HE QUOTES A COURT CASE (HAMDI) THAT HAPPENED YEARS AFTER 2001 IS PRECEDENT FOR LANGUAGE NOT PRESENT IN AUF
HOW CAN GONZALEZ AUTHORISE THE NSA PROGRAM IN 2001 BASED ON A HAMDI CASE THAT HASNT HAPPENED YET?
CRYSTAL BALL ?
There ya go!
ReplyDeleteFirst Durbin and now Brownback - They're using this hearing for assisting Bush in expanding his power legally, to codify what Bush is already doing, and with the joke oversight of a FISA court.
FISA itself is unconstitutional, and it's never been challenged in the courts. Jonathan Turley, no liberal he, clerked at the FISA court and he saw little to no oversight. He's gone so far as to say that even when presented with warrants, he was sure that FISA judges signed them without even reading them.
Leahy: "Are you doing that? Are you doing that? Are you doing that? Are you doing that? Are you doing that?" regarding domestic surveillance of Americans.
ReplyDeleteGonzales refused to answer whether the President is doing that.
BINGO! BINGO! We're there! Leahy just zeroed in on the big question: are they spying domestically, when there is NOT one international component, without warrants, and AG refused to answer. The Democrats are on to it now, and they'll just have to take this ball and run all the way with it, or all is lost. At least it's out there. There's nothing any of us can do anymore. It's up to the Democrats how they pursue this.
ReplyDeleteSomeone stop Hatch from distorting the record with respect to the Clinton administration's warrantless searches PRE-FISA AMENDMENT. The first time this was brought up in the hearing, Gonzales had the integrity (albeit fleeting) to mention the amendment. Now, he's totally ignoring that.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteLeahy !
ReplyDeleteReminded me of every Assistant Principal I was ever up before.
Thought he was going to give Al detention. Sweet.
this is gonna take a trip to the Supreme Court.
ReplyDeleteThese guys have no intention of following the current laws.
Also, after each question, our guys should ask: "Mr. AG, would your answer be any different if you had been sworn in?"
With Orrin Hatch's bringing up Clinton's Assistant Atty General Jamie Gorelick ("Clinton did it" lie), it would seem that Ms. Gorelick needs to be brought before the committee to testify as to the facts of why she wrote that memo.
ReplyDeleteI have the flu, so I slept through this morning's debate, but I'm watching it on C-Span's website.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to make a direct link (their site seems to be using JavaScript for its links to the videos).
You can get there indirectly through this page.
democracy is more a facade than reality - thats self-evident from the testimony of gonzales and the socalled 'questioning' we're seeing...
ReplyDeleteThis page is not refreshing right. Anyone else having problems? and has glenn blogged at all recently? I'm only showing this morning posts....
ReplyDeleteThe Dems seem to be remembering how to be an opposition party.
ReplyDeleteWell...at least they're remembering how to debate. Whether this actually goes anywhere meaningful is another thing altogether.
anonymous--the reason why they can't use executive authority for domestic-to-domestic calls is that such calls can't easily be considered a part of foreign affairs. The power that the AG is claiming for the executive is the power to engage in foreign affairs, including defensive wars (whether declared or undeclared).
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, it doesn't look like we're going to get any of the relevant details out of this questioning. We need to know where the calls originated from, at what point they're being monitored, etc. But the issues will at least be presented to the public at large. It's just that nothing will be said here that hasn't already been said in the discussion online. So far as I can tell, anyway.
Blogger.com is run by NSA.
ReplyDeleteHow else to explain selective updates, chunks appearing, dissappearing, reappearing. Comments getting eaten.
Glenn, are you with us? Whats the dealio?
Repugs:
ReplyDeleteAl-Qaeda! Sleeper cells! Bin Laden!
Al-Qaeda! Sleeper cells! Bin Laden!
Al-Qaeda! Sleeper cells! Bin Laden!
Al-Qaeda! Sleeper cells! Bin Laden!
Run away! Run away!
Grassley really blows. Awful.
im currently living outside of the US and highly suspect that my phone calls have too been listened to...me, a law-abiding person with a sceptical mind in these corrupt times...phone calls have been suddenly disconnected and strange sounds can be heard...although one cant easily prove surveillance, i think theres no doubt their surveillance is wide-sweeping...
ReplyDeletethis gonzales guy is not so smart...lucky 4 those who seek the truth hes stumbling and fumbling...a jackass can pickup on his bullshit...lol
ReplyDeletehe's startin to studdddder........ get em Russ.
ReplyDeleteI'm having problems with refreshing, too. The last update from Glenn that I see is: Leahy makes another crucial point...
ReplyDeleteMaybe Glenn needs to start a new thread?
Good point above - regarding HAMDI decision not coming down till 3 years after the warrantless eavesdropping took place.
ReplyDeleteAlso, i just read Hamdi a few days ago. The facts are so dis-similar it needs to be brought out. Hamdi involved an american citizen, caught in Afghanistan, with a group of Taliban fighters, armed with a soviet kalishnokoff (sp error) machine gun in his possession. If the AUMF authorized anything, it authorized the detention of this man as an enemy combatant. Notice also how the Sup Ct. went further and said, regardless of these facts, HAMDI, as a U.S. citizen (even one picked up in Afghanistan under the circumstances in which he was detained)is entitled to contest his enemy combatant "status" and is entitled to counsel, and a hearing consistent with the due process clause of the 5th and 14th amendments.
Clearly, the actions in HAMDI are more directly related to the AUMF since it specifically authorized military force against the Taliban in Afghanistan, where and with whom HAMDI was caught with.
The facts of the present NSA domestic spying scandal are soooooooo far removed from the facts of the HAMDI case that reliance on HAMDI (despite the fact that HAMDI was decided 3 years after the program began)for this scandal is absurd. Gonzalez should be bitch slapped for calling himself a lawyer.
And the guy who got kicked out for yelling Gonzales is a fascist needs to be given the patriot award for the day. That took some balls. That wasnt you was it Glenn? :)
Ha! Russ clearly got him with the "any other actions" question. AG's non-answer speaks volumes. Question is, what IS/ARE the other programs(s) that contradict legislation????
ReplyDeletethe questions coming from the republicans are mindnumbing...seems that through repetition of bushtalk they want to keep the american people split on this topic as with most every other subject...polarisation a key 2 their strategy...god i need a few cups of coffee 2 get through their mumble-jumble...russ and leahy seem to offer the only highlights in this spectacle...
ReplyDeleteShumer:
ReplyDelete“I know its been a long day Mr. Gonzalez. I know you must be tired with all that bobbing and weaving going on”
carrie said...
ReplyDeleteThe Dems seem to be remembering how to be an opposition party.
Anonyumous said...
Well...at least they're remembering how to debate. Whether this actually goes anywhere meaningful is another thing altogether.
What is it that you two are expecting will be the result of this hearing?
What do you want the outcome to be?
If it's that you want Bush to stop using the NSA to spy on Americans, it's not going to happen.
If it's that you want Republicans to condemn what Bush is doing, call for impeachment, it's not going to happen.
Those two outcomes are off the table. We know that from two things:
1) Gonzalez wasn't sworn in. This is a show for the public with Republicans giving the leftover Alito speeches during the time they are given for fact-finding questioning.
2) Democrats, have shown their hand about their bottom line - In order not to look like they are weak on security, they keep repeating that would beef up the FISA act to give Bush what he needs.
Best and worst outcomes of these hearings:
1) Bush will continue doing what he's doing without any new congressional legislation.
2) Bush will continue doing what he's doing (and maybe even more) with new muscles given him from this inept and traitorous congress.
What is it that you're hoping for?
The last entry from Glenn I can pull up starts "How funny that Orrin"....
ReplyDeleteIs anyone else having problems pulling up Glenn's current Blogg?
Is Glenn Missing in Action?
To call the Hamdi case irrelevant is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteSurveillence of the enemy is part of war. Hamdi reiterated the president's right to hold enemy combatants. The Court simply said Hamdi could use the courts to question the statements.
The courts historically have given the president the authority to gather enemy surveillance. It is likely this would fall under under the broad definitions under AUMF.
It is likely the courts would provide direction for anyone arrested under these laws to contest their arrest.
Just to ignore it because it dealt with enemy combatants and not electronic surveillance is taking way too narrow view of the historical trend of the law.
Why doesn't anyone ask the most basic of questions - Targeting
ReplyDeleteHow the hell do they know who to target ?
A good friend of mine regularly makes calls to North Africa and claims he'd be disappointed if govt. wasn't listening in. Fine. How is it they come to know you are making these calls ?
I get this is about balance of power and 4th amendment, but if someone could ask this most basic of questions, all their bs to date would unravel.
Looks like Rove is blackberrying one of Abu's "attendants" behind him.
ReplyDeletePinker said...
ReplyDelete"What is it that you two are expecting will be the result of this hearing?
What do you want the outcome to be?"
It's simple. If the President broke the law, then he needs to be held accountable.
The President took an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution, not spit on it.
We need to send a message to Americans and future Presidents, that no man or woman, is above the law.
I'm hoping for more people to wake up to the fact that Big brother is watching, that when something is called the 'Clean Air Act'proposed by a Republican, it's real purpose is to weaken environmental laws.. 1984 should be required reading in every high school.
ReplyDeleteThis is much different from the Alito hearings, because Gonzalez is not getting 100% support from Brownback, DeWine, Spector, and Senator Goober. I don't think this went well for the administration.
ReplyDeletePeople need to start calling Congress about extending the HAVA deadline. The Diebold flaws are starting to be exposed, states need more time to comply or loose there funding.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes.
Under questioning by Sen. Sessions the Attorney General just revieled operational aspects of the NSA operation when he told the senator that it was only Al Queda they monitor.. Why wont he answer any of the Democrats questions when it comes to operational details?
ReplyDeleteJust STOP IT!!! Stop bringing it up that that we're listening to the enemy! We need to stop reminding them that we're listening!
ReplyDeleteROTFLMAO
Yes, Biden. How has this 'outing' of the wiretaps 'harmed our intelligence?'
ReplyDeleteGonzo: after awhile, they forget.
Who do they expect to believe that?
Oh, right---the mouth-breathers, FauxNewsies
Pinker said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is it that you two are expecting will be the result of this hearing?
Sorry, but I lived through Watergate - maybe you did too - and uncovering these things is a process: it doesn't happen all at once. One thing leads to another, testimony spawns hearings, hearings spawn grand juries, indictments spawn trials, etc. Angry cynicism may be fashionable, but it doesn't get you very far. Remember when Bush was at 80%+ and people thought he was heroic? Now they think he's a liar and an incompetent. Don't confuse Republican arrogance for certainty about anything; it's just a tactic (didn't work all that well for Nixon btw).
The 'result'? Maybe nothing. maybe everything. The thing is to keep pushing. These people are sitting on a mound of garbage so extensive it demands brandishing a nearly hysterical defense at the first risk of disclosure. If that dam can be broken, all bets are off...what's your alternative?
What the hell ..the Dems dont get coverage in the break , but the repugs can parade the 9/11 family memeber out for all to see.
ReplyDeleteOf course Gonzales begins his Opening Statement by quoting Osama bin Laden and Zawahri. We used to quote Madison, Jefferson and Lincoln to decide what the principles of our Government are going to be. Now we quote Al Qaeda. The Administration wants Al Qaeda and its speeches to dictate the type of Government we have. It is the centerpiece of everything they do and say
ReplyDeleteGlenn - your comments above are so spot on it is ridiculous. What have we become people?? We allow our obviously incompetent, corrupt and impotent political leaders to use the "terrorist bogeyman" to scare us into submission? I am incredibly embarrassed. TO all you neo-cons I ask: where is your backbone?? What bedwetters we have become. It is shameful cowardice that is all it is. Disgusting.
clare boothe lucid said...
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't anyone ask the most basic of questions - Targeting
How the hell do they know who to target ?
A good friend of mine regularly makes calls to North Africa and claims he'd be disappointed if govt. wasn't listening in. Fine. How is it they come to know you are making these calls ?
I get this is about balance of power and 4th amendment, but if someone could ask this most basic of questions, all their bs to date would unravel.
Your friend may have no problem with this invasion of privacy, but I sure do.
You want to know the meat and potatoes of this spying program, and Bush has decided that only 8 members of Congress can know. None of them are on this committee.
The U.S. government is based around rule of law, but there's something else that must exist for rule of law to work: Consent of the governed. We, the People, are the fourth branch of government and none of this works unless they have our consent.
I don't know about you, but I don't consent to what I don't trust. "Trust, but verify," is a phrase that these fascists should remember from their old leader Reagan.
I don't trust Republicans, I don't trust Bush, I don't trust Cheney, I surely don't trust Rove, and I'm not trusting Democrats these days, after watching them in action when golden opportunities have been handed to them and they just let them slip away.
During all of the weeks leading up to these hearings, from first learning what Bush was doing, the Democrats should have been waging an education program on the reasons that safeguards were put into place after Nixon and Watergate. On the abuses of an out-of-control Executive branch, which used the apparati of government for political gain.
The founders of the U.S. also didn't trust, and their design for a government addressed that very problem. Checks and balances, with oversight roles for everyone.
In Bush, we have the most secret government in the history of the country. It's the closest thing to a dictatorship that America has ever experienced. We are slowly learning, after 5 years, that we were right to distrust Bush and wrong to let ourselves be silenced so easily.
Does anybody seriously believe that Bush isn't using this NSA operation to spy on his political enemies? We already know from one of the leaks that the NSA is forwarding information culled from their spying to relevant domestic government agencies. Do we all remember Nixon using the IRS to neutralize his enemies at home?
We know the character and histories of the Bush group to be even more ethically challenged than Nixon's tribe, which I didn't think was possible. We know what Karl Rove has done with classified information from agencies like the FBI and CIA, both pre- and post- entering the White House. Purely political. To the detriment and danger of American citizens and American policy. The Bush crowd has no shame! They certainly have no honor, and every time they talk about "it's our job to do everything we can to protect Americans," they should be laughed out of town!
But this Congress isn't going to do it for us. Not the Republicans and not the Democrats. It's got to be a grass roots effort, with no more tuning back in to some happening on Capitol Hill, hoping that Democrats will do it for us.
We're on our own.
Nice post from Digby.
ReplyDeleteIt may be something that no member of Congress really wants to say out loud, but I think it would bear saying.
ReplyDelete"AG Gonzales - this is being framed as a dispute between the President and Congress, but the real issue is the third branch of government that is not present at these hearings - the Judiciary.
When the American people REQUIRED that the Bill of Rights be added to the Constitution - they did not entrust either the President(Executive Branch) or the Congress (Legislative Branch) to oversee searches and seizure, did they? They deliberately picked the Judiciary to oversee searches and seizures and made sure that both the PResident and Congress would be subject to Judicial oversight, didn't they?
Forgive me if this has already been asked.
ReplyDeleteI listened to a large snippet of these hearings on C-Span radio this afternoon, and one point of contention that stuck out for me was Mr. Gonzalez's assertion that the President never officially declared war, either on Iraq OR on terrorism; in fact, he took pains to clarify specifically that the President got authorization to "Use Military Force", at least as far as Iraq goes.
My question is this: how can the President assert that we are "at WAR with terrorists", and that as such he has the authority to circumvent the FISA law, if we were never officially declared to be at war? And should that not be somewhat of a slam dunk in favor of those who oppose the warrantless wire-tapping--that one of the President's main defenses for breaking the law (that we are at war) is bogus, as declared by his own Attorney General?
Has authorization for usage of military action always been synonymous with a declaration of war? I'm confused because it seems that the Attorney General was intent to draw a distinction.
It's entirely possible that I'm missing something here, but can anyone shed some light on this issue?
My question is this: how can the President assert that we are "at WAR with terrorists", and that as such he has the authority to circumvent the FISA law, if we were never officially declared to be at war?
ReplyDeleteI heard the same thing & thought the same thing! I was struck by how emphatic Gonzales was about making that distinction.
There was no "declaration of war" with Korea, there was no "declaration of war" in Vietnam, there was no "declaration of war" for the first Gulf War. Instead, Presidents have been relying on Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution which makes him the Commander In Chief of the military and therefore theoretically able to order the military to perform "police actions".
ReplyDeleteHere is the relevant Wikipedia entry:
War Powers Clause
And yes, they are claiming that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force gives them carte blanche to do whatever they reasonably feel needs doing in order to get the terrorists who plotted 9/11. They say it was a declaration of war in all but name.
Whenever someone asks Gonzales how to interpret FISA's language that it is the exclusive tool for surveillance, he replies that FISA contemplates that another statute could supersede it, and then explains that the vague AUMF was that statute.
ReplyDeleteGonzales has said repeatedly that you have to construct AUMF and FISA in such a way as to avoid provoking a Constitutional crisis. He seems to be saying that even if the administration's interpretation of a law is stupider than Congress', you have to go with the interpretation that does not provoke a Constitutional crisis.
My BS detector is beeping. Why wouldn't the judiciary go with the most reasonable interpretation? How can a twisted interpretation like the Administration's control in a situation like this?
Specter just said it! "I don't think we can avoid a tough constitutional crisis by ignoring the plain words of the statute. ... That just defies logic and plain English!"
ReplyDeleteGood for him.
Yes - he did a good job at the end. Hope it means something.
ReplyDeleteIf I were a Senator, I would have begun like this:
ReplyDelete"Mr. Gonzalez, with all due respect to my colleague Senator Specter, my first question is: 'Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?'"
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI don't really think you're going to read a comment this far down the thread, but I just saw a clip of you on CSPAN earlier today and I think you did a great job responding to the wingnut caller.
Keep up the good work. I want to see more of you--maybe vote for you--in the future.
Well, well, well...
ReplyDeleteThat is going to be one ugly hearing transcript: it's loaded with minefields for Mr. Gonzales & Co., from the impressions I got.
Durbin's last segment was a breath of fresh air. He pointed out the obvious with regard to the Constitutional definition of a true "check" by a separate Branch of government, very clearly and very pointedly, and then followed up brilliantly by calling AG on his implicit "trust me" response. Specter also hit on this in closing: We DO NOT KNOW what we are actually dealing with here. And we have to "beg" the Chairs of the Intelligence Committees to decide to find out (although DeWine said there will be a closed Senate meeting in a few days, I guess). By how can legal refinements be determined if the Judiciary members are left out of the loop of the detailed information that may be given to the Intelligence Committee?
Without all the details of what is really being done at the NSA, further lawmaking seems pointless, and I think demands should be made to return to FISA procedures while further details are looked into. Perhaps some Patriot Act language could be added to force the NSA back into the FISA Court.
A lot got dragged into the open today, and Senators should try to keep the pressure on, and not lose focus on following up the leads developed today.
Overall, I rate this a very good effort by the Committee, that developed probably four or five very well-defined and important contradictions and conflicts in the arguments of the AG that must be addressed.
Thanks for your moral authority today, Senator Leahy. That was a very refreshing turn of events.
For information on "what other programs", the Senate intelligence committee knows full well there are SAPs, Special Access Programs, otherwise known as Black Ops, that are illegal to even speak about. That's why Rumsfeld could sit in front of Congress last year and say "we don't torture and I never gave the appproval to torture". Some of this is obviously necessary in a time of war, cold or hot, but when it becomes obvious that the Executive Branch has decided to forego the legal checks and balances specifically legislated for Domestic spying on U.S. citizens, we all need to be concerned. A group of individuals who think it's Patriotic to tell you to your face that they're above the law and anyone who says otherwise is the enemy - are fascists. These people are self-admitted Straussians, which is even worse. For more on SAPs, see the writings of Seymour Hersch. And yes, this is scary stuff.
ReplyDelete