Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Pushing the teetering monster

(updated below)

There were numerous comments expressing some questions about, and disagreement with, my observations yesterday regarding the FISA amendments proposed by the Specter bill. Many of those questions and diagreements highlight some broader and extremely important issues raised by the NSA scandal generally, so I wanted to address the most commonly made and significant objections:

(1) I am not in favor of the Specter bill and was not suggesting that the bill itself would be a good law. Quite the contrary. FISA is a carefully constructed legislative framework which balances the need to have our government aggressively engage in foreign intelligence surveillance while ensuring that the past abuses by our government of eavesdropping powers do not repeat themselves. It has worked extremely well for 30 years and it was amended in 2001 at the request of the Bush Administration in order to cater it to the modern communication technologies which the Administration claims are used by terrorists.

Until George Bush got caught breaking this law and needed a defense, nobody serious ever -- over the 30 years since its enactment -- suggested that FISA was unconstitutional or even problematic. The opposite is true: we defeated the Soviet Union while our government eavesdropped only in accordance with FISA, and George Bush lavishly praised FISA when it was liberalized in the aftermath of 9/11 as a tool which enables the government to "conduct court-ordered surveillance of all modern forms of communication used by terrorists . . . ."

FISA is a law which enables strong, aggressive eavesdropping while preventing abuse, and there is no need to change it -- certainly not fundamentally. The Specter legislation provides eavesdropping powers to the government which are far too permissive and which simply are not necessary.

But we have to live with reality and the reality is that this legislation has now been introduced by the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and, I’d be willing to wager a fair amount, many Democrats (and some, but not by many, Republicans) will be tempted to support it as some sort of illusory middle ground. I do not believe this bill has any real chance of being enacted because the White House will vigorously oppose it. But since wishing it away is not an option, one can try to find ways to use it for beneficial outcomes. That was the point of my post – not to praise the legislation but to identify ways that it can be beneficial in fueling this scandal and in highlighting the Administration’s true law-breaking motives.

(2) In response to my original post on Sunday about the Specter bill, many people suggested that this bill was the by-product of some sort of secret agreement with the White House designed to quietly end the scandal. Republicans would get on board with the Specter bill and the scandal would go away.

I do not agree with that analysis because this bill is nothing like what the White House wants and they will never support it. In many ways, it is the opposite of what the Administration wants, because it is based on the premise that the courts and Congress have substantial powers to regulate and oversee what the Administration does in these areas, and the Administration’s primary goal is to reject and kill the idea that the other branches have a role to play in limiting what the President can do. And, indeed, the reaction to Specter's bill from Bush followers was vehement, even angry, opposition -- precisely because it undermines the "principle" that George Bush has the power to break the law in the name of Al Qaeda.

That is why I believe that this bill can exacerbate the wedges among Republicans and fuel this scandal. There are many Republicans (I believe Specter is one) who take the Administration’s claims at face value and believe that they violated FISA not because (as I believe) they do not recognize any checks on their national security powers, but because they genuinely believed that FISA was too restrictive or cumbersome to allow them to engage in important counter-terrorism surveillance.

These Republicans will be disabused of that belief once it becomes apparent that the White House is not interested in FISA amendments but is only interested in solidifying its unilateral, unchecked power over all matters relating to national security, and will therefore reject any framework (no matter how much eavesdropping power they have) which entails any meaningful oversight or restriction on what they can do.

And it will become more apparent generally that this scandal is not a dispute over what the proper scope of the government’s eavesdropping powers should be. It goes far beyond that and raises a much more profound crisis. The scandal is not about eavesdropping and whether the President should be able to eavesdrop without warrants but about the rule of law and whether the President has, as he claims, the power to break the law. Anything that highlights that still under-appreciated point is something I find valuable and, for the reasons I explained, the Specter legislation (whether intentionally or not) does exactly that.

(3) From the beginning of this scandal, I have tried to emphasize that the Administration’s wrongdoing here is completely independent of whether or not they abused their eavesdropping powers by intercepting the communications of, say, journalists or political opponents rather than suspected terrorists. This is important to note because the Administration broke the law by eavesdropping on Americans without judicial oversight and approval, and that is true -- and it is unacceptable, scandalous and profoundly dangerous -- regardless of whether the Administration, in addition to breaking the law, also engaged in eavesdropping abuses.

This scandal is not dependent upon proving that the Administration abused their eavesdropping power. Right now, this is a law-breaking scandal. The scandal is that the President claims the power to violate the law and did so here by eavesdropping on Americans without the judicial oversight and approval which the law requires. If it turns out that the Administration abused its eavesdropping powers, then that is a second scandal – a separate eavesdropping scandal which would be extremely serious in its own right. But the NSA scandal arose not because of proof of eavesdropping abuses, but because of proof that the President broke the law. Repeatedly and deliberately.

We do not yet know how the Administration exercised these powers precisely because they eavesdropped in secret, without the oversight which American citizens required for eavesdropping. That’s why a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation is so imperative; it is one of the few real mechanisms for discovering whether the eavesdropping powers were abused.

But, while we do not yet know if the Administration abused its eavesdropping power, what we do know – for certain – is that the President broke the law because he has seized law-breaking powers. That fact, by itself, creates a serious governmental crisis and does not depend upon the independent issue of how the eavesdropping powers were used.

Every time I make this point, some people invariably react as though I am denying that the Administration abused its eavesdropping powers. That is not my point. I do not deny that the Administration abused its eavesdropping powers because I don’t know if they did or didn’t. Nobody knows, precisely because they eavesdropped in secret and without oversight. And given the history of eavesdropping abuses as well as the corrupt character of this Administration, I would not be surprised at all if they did engage in eavesdropping abuses, and would probably be surprised if they didn’t.

But I think it’s critically important to keep the law-breaking issue separate from the eavesdropping abuse claims. The President cannot be allowed to break the law no matter what motives he claims he has in doing so and no matter what conduct he engages in when breaking the law. We know the President broke the law and continues to do so, and that -- by itself -- presents a profound threat to our basic constitutional principles and to the rule of law, regardless of how the eavesdropping powers were exercised.

(4) Many commenters observed that the Specter legislation is useless because even if it became law, the Administration would simply violate it when they want just as they are violating FISA. I agree entirely - and, for me, that is the whole point that needs our exclusive focus.

A dispute over the proper scope of eavesdropping power and what evidentiary standards should be met to obtain eavesdropping authority is important, but it is a garden-variety political debate. What our country is facing – whether it realizes it yet or not – is far, far beyond that. As I said yesterday:

In our country today, having Congress enact legislation is no longer enough for a bill to become an actual, binding law. What is now required as well is that the Administration agree to be bound by the legislation, because we currently live in a country where -- with regard to national security -- the President believes he has the power to obey only those laws that he agrees to obey (while having the power to break those laws which he does not agree to obey).

The Administration, of course, is already violating the current Congressional statute designed to regulate its eavesdropping activities and it has stated that it has the power to do so. Thus, the only way this legislation would ever matter is if the Administration agrees to adhere to this law.

In sum, under our current system of Government, what used to be called a "law" is now more like a contractual offer or a suggestion. When the American people pass a law through our Congress, we have to hope that the President will agree to obey it. But as the President has repeatedly made clear, he believes he does not have to and he may decide – in secret – to violate the law. That’s the profound crisis and scandal plaguing our country that few seem to want to acknowledge.

The public does not realize that the crisis we face is a crisis of the rule of law, borne of the fact that the President of the United States has expressly arrogated unto himself the power to break the law, and is exercising that power on numerous fronts, not only with regard to
eavesdropping. The reason they do not yet realize this is because this scandal has been depicted – by the media and, infuriatingly, even by Democrats – as being an eavesdropping scandal, not a law-breaking scandal. As a result, debate has centered over whether the government should be eavesdropping, not over whether the President has the power to break the law.

I believe that making the public aware of the true issue at the heart of this scandal is the most important priority, by far. I have always said that I believe this scandal can be resolved the way it ought to be and that we can impose consequences on the President for his illegal conduct if public opinion demands that. And, in my view, the public will demand that once they realize that the President of the United States has expressly claimed that he has the power to break the law and is doing so.

We have a history in this country of punishing political officials who believe that they are above the law, and George Bush is no different. If anything, his extreme and ever-increasing unpopularity makes him more vulnerable than ever. Every recent poll, including yesterday’s CBS poll (.pdf), shows that a majority of Americans already believe that the President’s warrantless eavesdropping is illegal. The public, which does not trust George Bush at all, is primed to be convinced, and I believe they can and will be.

For many reasons, this campaign of persuasion will not come from Democrats in Washington or the media on their own. But it doesn’t need to. Pressure to hold the government accountable for its law-breaking and to reject claims of law-breaking powers is going to have to come from citizens expressing their refusal to accept these assaults on the principles of government that have made our country free, strong and great for the last two centuries.

The blogosphere is one tool, an extremely important tool, for reaching large numbers of citizens. Critically, it enables information to be communicated directly to other citizens en masse without the intervention of the establishment media, and independently enables concerted action without having to rely on some party apparatus or other clunky, obsolete, stagnation-producing mechanisms such as the beltway "advocacy organizations."

There are projects underway which, though in their incipient stages, can be significant in reaching large numbers of people and affecting how they view these matters. And as I’ve alluded to before, I have been developing a project which I think can be quite significant in shaping the public debate over this scandal specifically and the crisis of law-breaking generally which I will be able to announce (with a good deal of excitement) in a couple of days.

One of the many brilliant attributes of our system of government is that citizens really do serve as a meaningful check on government abuses, and they do so in endless, ever-changing ways. To recognize that fact does not require optimism -- just reality. Throughout our history, Americans have figured out methods for destroying corrupt institutions and smashing even the most ingrained practices and laws -- and when they could not find ways to do so, they invented new ones. Seemingly invulnerable and omnipotent political figures and movements have been destroyed, all as a result of the actions of citizens who have made large numbers of Americans aware of the need to act.

Whatever systems are in place are in place because they were constructed by human beings. Any systems built by human beings can be torn down and replaced just as easily as they were built. There is nothing invulnerable or omnipotent about the Bush movement or the systems which they have erected in order to fuel their agenda. It can be brought down just as easily as others like it have been destroyed.

All that is needed is for citizens to become aware of just how radical and dangerous their conduct is. It’s happening already, and there is no reason whatsoever to convince oneself of the futility of battling against it. Quite the opposite. There is every reason to believe that it is starting to teeter and just needs a good, hard push to fall and shatter.

UPDATE: The Senate Judiciary Committee is holding hearings today with a panel of professors and former government officials (including conservative Administration critic Bruce Fein and the odious defender of Bush law-breaking, Professor Robert Turner). According to Georgia at Kos, the proposed Specter legislation was at least one of the issues being discussed. I was unable to listen to the hearing, so if anyone finds where there is a transcript, I'd appreciate if you could post the link in Comments or e-mail it to me.

UPDATE II: Markos posted an amazing 50-state survey on the views of Americans regarding the NSA scandal -- and specifically their beliefs about whether George Bush broke the law. In 37 out of 50 states, a plurality believe that it is clear that Bush broke the law. The best state for Bush is Oklahoma, where only 42% believe that he clearly did not break the law - the highest number of any state which thinks that. In almost every state, between 20-25% believe it's not clear one way or the other, which demonstrates that scores of people are still open to being persuaded on this question (while a plurality, as every poll shows, already believes that Bush broke the law).

146 comments:

  1. I think the Bush Administration will at least pay lip service to accepting the Specter "compromise" because as was observed long ago, they are all politics and no policy. It's politically helpful to appear reasonable, so they will agree in order to appear reasonable.

    But I agree completely that they will simply ignore it. A shorter talking point: They don't get any new laws until they agree to obey the laws we've already got.

    If you set a 10:00 curfew for your kid, and she consistently comes home at midnight, the appropriate response is NOT to change her curfew to midnight. All parents, even the Republican ones, know that.

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  2. I think the Bush Administration will at least pay lip service to accepting the Specter "compromise" because as was observed long ago, they are all politics and no policy.

    This makes sense only if you think that what the Administration really cares about is loosening the evidentiary standards under FISA for eavesdropping, rather than implementing the Yoo theory of Executive power to give them unfettered national security power. I think the Administration cares very little about the eavesdropping standards and very, very much about bolstering the principle that they act alone - above the law- on all national security matters.

    This legislation gives them more eavesdropping power but forces them to accept extensive judicial and Congressional oversight and requires judicial approval for what they do - exactly what they don't want.

    One other point - nothing in the Specter legislation legalizes the Administration's prior conduct or precludes investigation of, and punishment for, their past law-breaking. Accepting this legislation doesn't absolve them of past behavior or preclude an investigaiton. If anything, one could argue that the Administration's law-breaking was so inexcusable precisely because they could have gotten FISA amendments to address any problems with the law -- the Specter legislation demonstrates that fact, which is yet another reason why they won't accept this legislation.

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  3. But of course they can. Bush can stand next to Specter at the signing ceremony and talk about the great value of the new law. He then can issue a signing statement saying that he will enforce the new law "within my Constitutional prerogatives." He then can violate it in secret, just as he did the FISA law.

    Yes, he can do that. I've said multiple times that they reserve the right to violate the law and would be no more bound by this legislation than they are by FISA. Nobody is denying that. Nonetheless, I believe quite strongly that the White House won't accept this legislation because doing so will undermine all of their strategic goals.

    And I've explained why - the Administration needs to fight for, not have erased, the principle that they have the power to act alone in national security areas. When Gonzales was before the Judiciary Committee, Senators repeatedly asked him if the Administration would work with them to amend FISA and he repeatedly rebuffed them, telling them that they don't need FISA revisions because they already have the power to eavesdrop however they want.

    They need to fight for that principle because they need it to justify almost everything they are doing, far beyond eavesdropping. From lawless detention of Americans to Guantanamo, torture and rendition to who knows what else, the Administration relies on the principle that they have the power to violate the law and act without constraints from other branches in national security matters.

    They cannot afford to publicly endorse a law which so expressly denies that principle. All any of us can do is speculate about how future events are likely to unfold. I don't have a crystal ball any more than anyone else. All I can do is make educated guesses about what the Administration is likely to do.

    Based on everything I know about what they are trying to achieve and what they believe, this Specter bill is totally anathema to them and accepting it will undermine almost every goal they have. I think the unanimously negative reaction to this bill from Bush followers yesterday bolsters my view.

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  4. Anonymous9:08 AM

    In sum, under our current system of Government, what used to be called a "law" is now more like a contractual offer or a suggestion. When the American people pass a law through our Congress, we have to hope that the President will agree to obey it.

    ...not only that the President will agree to obey it, but that Congress will take appropriate action when the President violates it.

    This republican Congress seems to take some sort of glee when Bush breaks the law. Stated differently, they do not seem to have any problem when Bush breaks the law consistently, and with aforethought. Instead, it provides their afternoon delight.

    What stuns me even more is the fact that the MSM and many in society seem to be so passive, as if it is no big deal. As a contrarian, I find this really troubling.

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  5. Anonymous9:23 AM

    Whatever systems are in place are in place because they were constructed by human beings. Any systems built by human beings can be torn down and replaced just as easily as they were built. There is nothing invulnerable or omnipotent about the Bush movement or the systems which they have erected in order to fuel their agenda. It can be brought down just as easily as others like it have been destroyed.

    This is a great view to provide people with, Glenn. It grounds the discussion in an immediate, realistic, physical philosophy. It is absolutely material—whatever the discussion is—that each person is empowered, and reminded of the true locus of power. It is within each of us.

    Thank you.

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  6. Anonymous9:34 AM

    Glenn - perhaps someone else has already raised this point, or maybe you addressed it in another post, but a I see a problem in your reasoning. I agree that the Specter bill could serve to expose Bush's real motives and his law breaking. However, if in the end he's going to ignore any law he sees fit (it's mind boggling that we're even talking about this!), then he can simply passively support the bill, sign it and then ignore it. This way he's giving the supporters of the bill they're looking for, and since he won't be bound by it, it's a win-win situation.

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  7. Anonymous9:40 AM

    The problem with power and bringing something like this down, is recognizing it's source. Recognizing it for what it is, and why it is occuring.

    I personally believe that there is a bigger energy causing it to remain in motion. Specifically, mass psychology.

    A whole group of people (or in this case, psycho-fanatics) going in the same direction, defying normal, rational thought and gravity (figuratively speaking). At some point, some event will occur that will cause them (right-wingers) to change course, albeit probably not by choice.

    The mass psychology phenomenom is like going through the grieving process on a large scale (denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance). During the peace time (70-80's) we were in the acceptance phase.

    In the 90's, during the denial phase, people did not understand why Clinton was getting attacked and impeached over lying about an affair.

    Now, in the bargaining phase, things are really heating up. Chaos is breaking out between political parties, religions (pro- vs. anti-gay), societies (east vs. west), federal vs. states, blacks vs. whites, citizens vs. non-citizens, the list goes on ad infinitum.

    Finally, some event will occur to take us into sadness and then we will come to acceptance and peace, until the cycle starts all over again.

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  8. Another point we need to make clear with regard to this, is how the Bush Administration formulates the argument. When you listen carefully to what they are saying, it is the Bush Administration versus Congress and now the Judiciary. In other words, the enemy has become, to them, the other two branches of goverment, as well as American citizens who are not supporting them.

    This can help us show the many people who are not following the story carefully (or who are hobbled with reading only MSM accounts) just how radical this Administration is.

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  9. That’s why a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation is so imperative; it is one of the few real mechanisms for discovering whether the eavesdropping powers were abused.

    But, while we do not yet know if the Administration abused its eavesdropping power, what we do know – for certain – is that the President broke the law because he has seized law-breaking powers.


    But can this lawlessness be held to account without investigations?

    Tom Engelhart has a very relevant and interesting article in today’s Salon on this topic where he talks about “frozen scandals” and the reason that nothing is happening is that there is no formal investigation and no official acknowledgement of wrongdoing and no punishment. As he puts it:

    The great problem in the age of frozen scandal is that it's as if we're this spinning wheel, constantly confirming facts that we already knew, so the revelations become less and less effective in causing public outrage. The public begins to become inured to it, corrupted in its turn.

    And in spite of the optimism we should have at Bush’s poll numbers falling faster than a 78 year-old on a Cheney quail hunt, there’s also the possibility of “frozen investigations”:

    If the Democrats do take control of a house of Congress and mount real investigations, on the one hand, they'll be very circumspect because they'll be concerned about jeopardizing their chances in the elections of 2008. On the other hand, you'll have the overwhelming claim of commander in chief power, which could completely handcuff investigations.

    Englehart also talks about “gloves off” policies, which are in essence a euphemism for breaking the law in the name of national security under the auspices of fear. This “fear” has restored to the Republican Party the advantage it lost with the end of the Cold War.

    So, we have to worry that the “gloves off” policy of “lawlessness” will actually be institutionalized by the Republican Party, by saying that those who want to follow the laws are “weak” on terror. Englehart:

    Even with Congress actually doing its job, we would confront the central political reality of our time: Terrorism has embedded itself in our political system, which is to say that fear has become the most lucrative political emotion and the administration would retain a considerable power to promote fear. It has the power to suggest that an attack on the national security bureaucracy is an attack on the safety of the people.

    These are very serious and very disturbing questions.

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  10. Like you, I continue to have faith in the American people and our commitment to individual liberty and the rule of law. I also agree with you that the corporate mentality of the current administration will not allow them to be constrained by the will of the people. They are used to being CEOs in a capitalistic system that has come to be dominated by greedy managers rather than a business' real owners. We are the real owners of America and we will not let Enron-style management continue to use the federal government for their own purposes. We are in a period of awakening by the public to this peril. Once fully aware, they will do the right thing.

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  11. Anonymous10:23 AM

    Hey Glenn

    I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the way you consistently and honestly respond to comments on your posts. Whether or not I agree with you in any given instance (usually I do), I find your honest and straightforward style of conversation to be quite refreshing. You consistently make it clear that you are listening and you care. Please keep up the great work.

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  12. Heh. The front page says '10 comments', the thread says '12', and I'm very interested to see just how many people are busy tap tap tapping away even as I am, cranking the comments thread up even further before I manage to get this one spackled into place.

    You know, I'd love to have more comments on my blog, but I think if I routinely got in excess of 100 to each thread, I'd be a little overwhelmed.

    As to the entry itself, I tentatively agree that El Jefe will most likely want nothing to do with the Specter legislation... but sometimes it pays to remember that the Bush Administration is a monster out of Greek mythology, and little Georgie is among the smallest and feeblest of the heads. If one of the bigger Hydra-brains decides it would be good to get the Repubs back on board, Bush can be spun towards signing the new law... after all, he's just going to ignore it, anyway.

    It's also important to note that the Specter legislation can be seen very much as a chance at a 'do over'. Bush signs it, the public breathes a sigh of relief and goes back to sleep... and Bush keeps on keeping on, in an environment in which journalists are now terrified that they can be tried for espionage if they blow the whistle on him again.

    Taken in isolation, I think your points are valid, but in the broader context, where the Adminisration is doing its best to put the fear of jail into the press, and ultimately, into the American people themselves, I think we have to look at it differently. It could be quite dangerously effective as a tranquilizer.

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  13. Sorry... in my last paragraph, 'it' refers, of course, to the Specter legislation. I apologize for being unclear.

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  14. Anonymous10:58 AM

    Glenn,
    I can't share your confidence that this horrible bill will not be enacted.

    We have already seen (with the McCain anti-torture legislation, among others) that Bush will have no trouble signing into law bills with which he disagrees -- he simply asserts in his 'signing statement' that he won't be bound by what he sees as illegitiamte usurpation of his executive powers.

    I fear this bill could result in the worst of both worlds: enactment of a much weaker, looser FISA law AND a president who continues to secretly wield extra-constitutional and illegal powers -- but now with additional Senatorial fig leaves!!

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  15. Anonymous11:04 AM

    Hi Glenn, I always seem to play Russert's Let Me Quote You game in responding to your thoughts. But you're so quotable! :)

    "All that is needed is for citizens to become aware of just how radical and dangerous their conduct is."
    WE KNOW! Look at the polls! The people who need to be made aware are the deafDems, the media, the liberal, Dem, Progressive blogs and anyone else who can look at the numbers and say I wonder when the people are going to realize the extreme, massive, mind exploding, obvious criminality of the Bush regime of destruction and want accountability.
    Trust me, we want it. We want a functioning government. What else could these numbers possibly be showing? More people have woken up in Oppositeland and want it to stop. Some Lapham person most recently.
    "what we do know – for certain – is that the President broke the law because he has seized law-breaking powers."
    Yep, we not so dimwitted folks out here have gotten this one too. Have you noticed "Law and Order" is on tv around the clock?
    The truth of this FISA law skirmish/scam has been exposed. I saw you on cspan and then Tony Romero on cspan and there was an explosion of passion on the web over this latest pseudo presidential power grab.
    When it first broke I thought well now everyone will finally be screaming Impeach. Nary a whisper. Maybe Mr. Lapham has some influence.
    "Pressure to hold the government accountable for its law-breaking and to reject claims of law-breaking powers is going to have to come from citizens expressing their refusal to accept these assaults on the principles of government that have made our country free, strong and great for the last two centuries."
    How low will the numbers have to go before it will be considered pressure?
    And I'm pressuring! Got my Impeach bumper sticker!
    "There are projects underway which, though in their incipient stages"
    Please give me one good reason why impeachment isn't the project in its incipient stage? Isn't it inevitable?
    Shorter me (and the poll numbers):
    Us good them evil let's start the battle. Isn't there some saying about which one always triumphs? Could be fun!
    More words. I may drop out (that despair thing) til I hear the only word that will give me the hope of my country returning to the rule of law. Impeach. If not now when?
    People are dying.
    Take care, Jan

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  16. Why on earth would they have to present a consistent front in their "argument" for the Unilateral Executive, when they can sign a bunch of laws with fanfare, make the public lose interest, and go back to governing unilaterally? Because they are already ignoring federal statutes. They have already declared that they cannot be constrained by the judiciary in "commander-in-chief" matters. They don't need a strategy to justify what they have already accomplished.

    OK, fine. The Bush Administration can simply accept this law and then freely violate it. Nobody will call them on their contradictions. They can lie and lie and lie - and break the law over and over -- and nothing will ever happen to them. They are invulnerable -- master manipulators who don't need to worry about being consistent because they have so much power and magic that they can do anything and no consequences will ever result.

    This scandal is just going to fade away because they'll do a backroom deal with the Republicans in Congress, like this Specter legislation, and this will all disappear, and they will march onto glorious victory -- again.

    Are those the premises we're supposed to accept and operate on? Karl Rove the Omnipotent Genius who controls all and always wins? The merciless Bush machine that just rolls over all of us with its deceit and super-clever strategies while we can do nothing but stand by and watch?

    I guess only time will tell if the Bush Administration is going to accept Specter's legislation and agree to submit to judicial and congressional oversight and approval for their eavesdropping. I've given my reasons why I don't believe that can or will happen multiple times now. The contrary view seems to be that it will happen because they always win and they control everything and expecting anything different is just naive. Everyone is corrupt and looking for ways to protect the Administration and that will happen inevitable so we should just accept it. There's nothing we can do about any of this because they don't get held to any standards or consistency and nobody can make them.

    I just have a fundamental disagreement with those premises. People are capable of being persuaded. Democrats have done a horrendous job of persuading - not just on this scandal but generally with this Administration. But like anything, that can be changed. But not by beginning with the premise that it can't be.

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  17. Anonymous11:30 AM

    Apropos of nothing, here's something from Fafbog that may give you a chuckle:

    Q & A: Our Omnipotent President

    Q. Can the president spy on Americans without a warrant?
    A. The president has to spy on Americans without a warrant! We're at war, and the president's gotta defend America, and he's not gonna wait for a permission slip from a judge or a senator or America to do it!
    Q. That's just the kinda tough, no-nonsense thinking I like in a de facto dictator! Now some crazy people say the president broke some silly old laws like FISA and the National Security Act and the Fourth Amendment. Are these crazy people crazy?
    A. They sure are! Maybe those laws worked back in 1978 back when Leonid Brezhnev was snortin coke with Ayatollah Khomeini and groovin to the hits of the Bee Gees, but in today's dark and dangerous times they just aren't enough.
    Q. Things sure have changed since the innocent days of mutually assured destruction! But is it legal for the president to ignore the law?
    A. Maybe not according to plain ol stupid ol regular law, but we're at war! You don't go to war with regular laws, which are made outta red tape and bureaucracy and Neville Chamberlain. You go to war with great big strapping War Laws made outta tanks and cold hard steel and the American Fightin Man and WAR, KABOOOOOOM!
    Q. How does a War Bill become a War Law?
    A. It all begins with the president, who submits a bill to the president. If a majority of both the president and the president approve the bill, then it passes on to the president, who may veto it or sign it into law. And even then the president can override himself with a two-thirds vote.
    Q. See it's the checks and balances that make all the difference in our democratic system.
    A. It's true.
    Q. Can the president spy on me without a warrant?
    A. The president would never, ever spy on you, unless you're talking to a terrorist.
    Q. That sounds reasonable!
    A. Or an associate of a terrorist or a suspected associate of a terrorist or a possible suspected relative of a member of an affiliate of a terrorist or someone with a name that's spelled like a terrorist's or someone who's been mistakenly identified as a terrorist by an NSA algorithm.
    Q. That sounds like I should look into switching to smoke signals.
    A. Well if you want, the president can stop the illegal wiretapping just for you.
    Q. Really? Well thanks, that'd be great!
    A. And then the terrorists can come and eat you.
    Q. Wait! What?
    A. Cause without the wiretaps there's nothin to stop the terrorists from eatin you, yknow. The terrorists and their army of bees.
    Q. Oh no! I'm allergic to terrorists AND bees!
    A. Oh that's too bad, cause now the president hasta stop the illegal wiretaps and let alllll those terrorist bees eat you.
    Q. Quick! Put the wiretaps back, put the wiretaps back!
    A. No no, you just said you wanna get eaten. Eaten by terrorist bees.
    Q. I change my mind! Please let the president wiretap me, pleeeease.
    A. I dunno...
    Q. Please, I can change! I DO believe in terror, I DO believe in terror!
    A. Oh, alright. But just this once!
    Q. It's a Nine-Elevenmas miracle!

    Q. Is the president above the law?
    A. Nobody's above the law! As commander-in-chief the president just outranks the law.
    Q. So the president doesn't break the law. He just appoints new laws to fill vacancies in the office of law, as empowered by Acticle II of the Shmonstitution!
    A. In the presidential order of succession the law falls between Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings and Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson.
    Q. You can't put the law any higher. It would just slow down the War on Terror with bureaucratic rules and regulations like the Geneva Conventions and the Bill of Rights.
    A. If the law outranked the president we'd never get anything done! The president would go toss Osama bin Laden through a plate glass window and the law would call him into his office an go "Dammit president, you're outta control!"
    Q. And then the president'd be all "You're outta control, chief! The whole freakin system's outta control!"
    A. And then the president would totally turn in his badge and quit the force to fight crime!
    Q. Fight crime... with mind-powers.

    Q. Can the president eat a baby?
    A. If that baby has suspected ties to al Qaeda, then it's the president's duty to eat it - for the sake of national security.
    Q. The president doesn't want to eat sweet, delicious babies. He just wants to protect America from the growing threat of a rogue baby insurgency.
    A. Exactly. And nobody will have more compassion for that succulent baby barbecue than him.
    Q. How many non-terrorist babies would it be acceptible for the president to accidentally eat in the course of enforcing a rigorous terrorist baby-eating program?
    A. First of all, the president would never ever eat a baby unless it was reasonably suspected to be affiliated with possible terroresque program activities. Second of all, do we really wanna start tyin the president's hands when he's tryin to protect everybody from jihadist babies? They could be Islamifying our country's drool supply as we speak!
    Q. Sir, I demand the immediate establishment of a cabinet-level Department of Baby-Eating!
    A. Just til we win the War on Terror, of course!
    Q. And with our sophisticated baby-eating technology we should be taking the Terrorstani capital of Fearlamabad any day now!
    A. Of course! But the actual occupation could last quite some time, you understand...
    Q. Well, yes. But the fight has to be won. These people want to use terror to destroy our freedom.
    A. And that's just un-American.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous11:33 AM

    What ever happened to: “The only thing we have to fear; is fear itself.” This country really has become a nation of bedwetters. This “Post 9/11” “Pre 0/11” mantra nonsense has permeated the public discourse like some ridiculous political Macarena. I was born and raised in New York; I stood dumbfounded the day the towers fell. I, like most American’s, felt the need for revenge. But the fact is, that this nation has always had enemies and will always have enemies. 9/11 just smacked people of a new generation in the face. It did not shift the reality of security threats.

    How did this Administration’s wholesale propaganda inculcate the public persona? The MSM!

    I read Glenn’s blog several time’s a day. I, however, like other posters here would consider myself a pessimistic pragmatist. I live in the real world. I can tell you that dealing with the many people (of all strata of class) that probably less than 3% even care enough about what is happening with regard to the national political landscape.

    It has been said, “never underestimate the intelligence of the American people.” Well, I for one, say don’t overestimate it either; you’ll only set yourself up for disappointment. I learned that lesson the hard way in 2000, and then had it beat me over the head in 2004.

    Now I’m not trying to imply that Americans are stupid; if the post election tally is correct, at least 48% of them are not. The problem is the public’s apathy.

    I watched Jon Stewart on Larry King last night, and he really hit the nail on the head.

    KING: Who in this administration fascinates you the most?

    STEWART: The American people for their just utter patience. And everybody, it just seems like I just don't know what it's going to take. What else, you know, there is this whole -- my mind has been blown just so consistently by this administration's insistence on their own competence without ever sort of delivering kind of any sort of evidence to that. I think at this point everybody just kind of rolls their eyes like, ah, those guys are at it again.


    What the hell will it take?

    This is my frustration. It seems as if the public has become numb rather than outraged to the completely insane and illegal antics of this administration. Without reinforcement, without the pounding on the skull of the American people by the Media, this all becomes wallpaper.

    Glenn writes:

    For many reasons, this campaign of persuasion will not come from Democrats in Washington or the media on their own.

    My question for Glenn is what possible reason do the Democrats have for not exploiting these issues?

    I know the Media will follow if the public demands, but so far this issue has maintained a shroud of ambiguity, largely due to the Democrats’ refusal to earnestly engage. The sad sack appearances by Jane Harman & Tom Daschle on MTP, was a perfect example of spineless antipathy.

    If you can’t get the opposition party to oppose, who can you get?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous11:58 AM

    Sorry, for some reason my post came up as Anon @ 11:33

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous12:43 PM

    Do you really believe that Specter thinks the administration just wanted to revise FISA? Because when *I* watched the hearings, it was quite clear to me that Specter and Graham believed nothing of the sort. Gonzales did not even attempt to mask the real intentions of the WH. It was perfectly clear that the WH would "listen" to the arguments from the Judiciary committee much like a parent will "listen" to a child who is asking for something the parent has no intention of granting.
    No, it is a blatantly obvious power grab in all of it's naked glory. Graham even took the time to lay out a very legitimate argument against it (false accusations) and asked pretty please with sugar on top but Gonzales was not moved. Specter's comments at the close indicated quite strongly that he realizes there is a constitutional crisis here.
    SO, what if this legislation is some kind of trade off that the WH has made with their GOP colleagues in Congress. What if they agree to play by these very lax rules in exchange for something else, like, oh, I don't know, renewal of the Patriot Act?
    It doesn't matter what Bush apologists say so long as the Bushies actually get what they want: a weakened FISA law and the egregious Patriot Act. It's a twofer. Specter can come out of this smelling like a rose because he avoided a showdown.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous1:16 PM

    Hey no gedalia posting moronic chimpy talking points that are tangent to the conversion!

    Hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

    I think the guy was right "downstairs", this one is a paid shill....

    PLEASE DON'T FEED TROLLS ANYMORE, THEY LEAVE TROLL SHIT!

    Oh, and little boy bart isn't here either...

    Well, he may be in school now... after all Middle School students can't blog all day...

    ReplyDelete
  22. Glenn,

    I have no idea why, but you consistently ignore anything I post to any thread. This time, you ignored everything I posted, and went straight to someone who agreed with one of my points, then paraphrased it out of nearly any resemblance to anything I said, and then, well, you posted a several hundred word pout about how people are disagreeing with your masterful thesis and it makes you cranky when we do that, and apparently there's something wrong with us for doing it.

    Your point seems to be that we are being too pessimistic. MY point was that, while your analysis of Bush's probably response to the Specter legislation is correct, there is more to the Bush Administration than just the titular boss. I then pointed out some reasons why the Repubs, you know, the craftier, smarter ones, might embrace Specter's legislation, viewing it as a chance to lull the American electorate back to sleep again, starting over with a press corps that is now, in all probability, even more muzzled than before by a new fear of prosecution due to the Justice Department's rigorous pursuit of whoever leaked the original illegal wiretapping story.

    I happen to think those are good points, and frankly, when you look at the continuous series of handjobs the media has given to Bush over the last five years, and the overwhelmingly inert manner in which the public has responded to EVERY unethical, immoral thing he has ever done, I also happen to think that pessimism is far more justified than your Capraesque "if we just rely on the innate heroism of the common man we'll all be okay" jingoism.

    Now, if you want to debate that, fine. But if you're just going to sulk because we refuse to buy your points, however well argued, wholesale, without arguing them back, then... geez. I don't know what to say. Other than that your optimism doesn't seem to be able to survive even a little bit of lint brushing, and maybe you ain't so optimistic after all.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous1:50 PM

    So, who gets to appoint this special national security court? If it's the Prez or Attorney General, then Specter's new law would seem to provide a nice built-in workaround: perpetual 45-day authorizations. The special court works outside of the consitutional checks and balances as they are normally understood, and is evidently not answerable to Congress.
    I hope enough Congresspeople will see this is just a bad joke and an extremely dangerous precedent in effectuating into the unitary executive theory.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I have no idea why, but you consistently ignore anything I post to any thread.

    I can't answer every post, and I doubt anyone would want me to. I try to answer the ones that make new points, that are representative of other comments, that disagree with something I wrote, and in all cases only those comments in response to which I have something to say that I think is worth saying. Sometimes I read great and interesting comments that I don't answer because I don't have anything worthwhile to say in response. It doesn't mean I've "ignored" the comment.

    I read your theories. I think they're plausible. But for the reasons I outlined, I don't think that's what will happen. I didn't "ignore" your comment. I read it and didn't respond because I didn't think I had anything particularly noteworthy to say in response.

    well, you posted a several hundred word pout about how people are disagreeing with your masterful thesis and it makes you cranky when we do that, and apparently there's something wrong with us for doing it.

    I never said my thesis was masterful. To the contrary, I said I have no more of a crystal ball than anyone else does and all we can do is speculate about what the Administration will do based on our best educated guesses.

    I do find the belief that Bush opponents will inevitably lose to be frustrating at times because I think it's unwarranted defeatism and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Administration is very vulnerable and now is the time to figure out a way to slay the beast, not attribute to them attributes of omnipotence and inevitable triumph which they don't deserve.

    I also happen to think that pessimism is far more justified than your Capraesque "if we just rely on the innate heroism of the common man we'll all be okay" jingoism.

    I don't think pessimism can be "debated." Pessimism is an emotion that posits one's own impotence. If someone wants to insist that we're going to lose no matter what and all the cards are stacked against us and the other side is equally brilliant and evil so that this is all hopeless, there's nothing I can do to change someone's mind about that. All I can do is do everything I can that I think is worth doing, and at the end, I believe it will be effective. If some doesn't think there's anything that can be done, or that what can be done will fail, what do you want me to say?

    I'm aware of the obstacles. I understand what the challenges are. I'm very cognizant of the problems that exist. I just prefer to direct my energies to figuring out ways to overcome them rather than sit around complaining about the unfairness of it all.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous2:20 PM

    Yesterday I posted a couple times with my doubts that the Specter legislation will get the debate stirred up. Basically it was the same point I see being made here by many.

    But I want to pull back now that the point has been made. My point wasn't to be pessimistic, but realistic. Now that we acknowledge we're up against people utterly opportunistic, I think we need to figure out a way to have as much influence on the outcome as possible. The one thing this administration has almost mastered is keeping debates they will lose from ever happening. The Justice Dept's machinations at avoiding having the SCOTUS ever render judgment of their illegal holding of American prisoners like Padilla is a good example.

    I think Rove will see this debate as one they have even greater stake in trying to keep out of the public eye. We have to see to it that Rove can't get away with this again.

    Who on the Democrat side would be closest to the development and implementation of the Specter proposal? Or who on either side might be in a position, due to membership on committee or past willingness to disagree with (and fight with) this administration over its claim to executive power. A flood of mail/calls to that person laying out exactly what our concerns are, along with demands that Rove not be allowed to get away with stifling the debate would be my first suggestion.

    I'm talking about real practical level stuff. It's time to start acting like an engaged populous. I know at least 50 people I can try to persuade to write letters, make calls, send emails etc. But I need to know who would be the best folks to direct them to, in terms of getting results.

    Glenn or anybody, do you know who is on the committee with Specter? Of the Dems involved are there one or two you can think of that would be in a pivotal position from which to have some say in how this debate plays out. Or might there even be an open-minded republican we could approach?

    I remain pessimistic but only in a realistic way. I think Rove is perfectly capable of pulling another "torture dodge" that has Bush sign something with no intention of ever following it. With Mccain's torture legislation where they succeeded in quelling public anger and continuing their torture undeterred. We can't let that happen with their claim to untrammeled executiove power.

    The only thing we can depend on is public outrage properly channeled to the highest effect. One thing the blogosphere allows us is an ability to focus tremendous energy at a few pivotal spots. We just need to make sure we all focus at the same few spots. First we need to know where those are. Any ideas on that? Glenn? Anybody?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous2:30 PM

    The next best place to focus attention is at the media. It's time to flood them. If they won't start talking about this scandal we need to ask why. They need to know we've all figured out that this is really about an unprecedented claim to absoloute power. We should demand they treat it with the gravity it deserves. The Constitution's primary function is limiting power. The power grab by Bush is exactly the kind the designers tried to make impossible.

    I'll try to articulate this more effectively and if I come up with something good I'll pass it along. But feel free to come up with your own version of articulated outrage and share it.

    Then we'll all help create a flood of it that even the castrated MSM can't ignore.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "The scandal is not about eavesdropping and whether the President should be able to eavesdrop without warrants but about the rule of law and whether the President has, as he claims, the power to break the law."

    This really is the heart of the matter, isn't it?

    The Bush administration's actions in this case follow roughly the same course as their attempt to do away with habeus corpus for American citizens, by seeking to detain Jose Padilla without charges- a power they simply declared and arrogated to themselves by fiat.

    Naturally, in order to set a precedent, they picked a "poster child" to hustle before the American citizenry, as a public demonstration of the sort of undesirables that they intended to round up. Jose Padilla, a Mexican-American (i.e. a name and face fitting the description of a "typical illegal immigrant", rather than the traditional imagic type of native-born American citizens- white); a past as an urban gang member; an ex-convict; a convert to Islam in prison; a traveller overseas to the Muslim country hosting the infamous Al Qaeda terrorist organization- in other words, the archetype of an unsympathetic character, the very iconic image of a terrorist foreigner in the guise of an American citizen.

    And what act was Mr. Padilla originally said to have conspired to commit, in his posited role as a minion of terrorist criminality? Nuclear terrorism. Building and exploding a radioactive dirty bomb.

    What reasonable person could object to the forcible detention of such a menace?

    Except for one procedural detail- Jose Padilla wasn't charged with a crime.

    That's why I used the words "said to" and "posited" in my description above rather than the traditional terms associated with the filing of criminal charges- "alleged" and "accused."

    The misdirection involved played out predictably in my debates with supporters of the Bush administration's imprisonment of Jose Padilla. My opponents typically began reeling off the publicized details of the case as if they amounted to self-evident justification for his jailing. In response, I had only this rejoinder-

    "If they have evidence, why didn't they simply charge him for the crime?"

    For that, they had no answer.

    But if the Police State can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers. And as long as someone's gut, emotional reaction is that Padilla is exactly the sort of person who belongs behind bars, the unfortunate tendency is to think that how he was put there is beside the point. When coupled with the naive granting of the benefit of the doubt to all exercises of power by our "free and democratically elected" government, the reflexive tendency of many Americans is to pass unnoticed over the catastrophe for civil liberties protections represented by detaining people without a hearing or official notice of the charges against them.

    Because once the precedent is set that anyone can be declared an "enemy combatant" and held without bail or a court hearing on the sole order of the President or one of his designated underlings, the game is up. The counters have been re-set to pre-Magna Carta days.

    The real issue here has never been whether or not Jose Padilla is guilty of terrorist conspiracy. The issue is why the Bush administration felt that it should have the right to simply declare American citizens guilty of unspecified offenses and imprisoning them without trial or recourse to bail.

    Jose Padilla is still in prison, of course. But at long last, more than 3 years after he was first put behind bars, the Bush Justice Department was finally prevailed upon by the Federal courts to charge him with a criminal offense. And you know what? There's nothing in those charges about plotting to build and detonate a radioactive dirty bomb. Padilla, who still waits for his day in court, was charged with a much more vaguely defined set of offenses that made no reference to a specific terror plot of any kind, or to any plot targeting this country.

    "...A federal grand jury in Miami returned the indictment against Padilla and four others. While the charges allege Padilla was part of a U.S.-based terrorism conspiracy, they do not include the government's earlier allegations that he planned to carry out attacks in America.

    "The indictment alleges that Padilla traveled overseas to train as a terrorist with the intention of fighting a violent jihad," Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said at a news conference in Washington. Gonzales declined to comment on why none of the allegations involving attacks in America were included in the indictment..."


    It will be interesting to see how that trial plays out. Padilla may possibly be found guilty in a court of law, of something or other. But, even granting that outcome, the question remains- why didn't the Bush administration simply charge him criminally at the outset of his detention?

    And that brings us around to the gist of Glenn's post today: the Bush administration wants the right to nullify the law, whenever it suits their purposes. If they had their way, habeus corpus and due process for American citizens would be a thing of the past.

    Accepting the detention of Jose Padilla without trial is equivalent to the fabled parable of voluntarily granting entrance to a vampire, allowing the fiend to cross one's threshold. It only has to be done once, and then the vampire comes and goes into your domain as he pleases. The first time, seduction- so sweetly and reasonably!- after that, the victim has surrendered their power of autonomy and resistance, and is at the mercy of the demon. The vampire can do as he pleases thereafter.

    Don't be deceived, the issues brought up by the Padilla case are far from resolved by the courts. And the Bush administration still refuses to admit so much as a single overstep in its campaign to accumulate autocratic police power, continuing to pursue its multi-front attack on the civil liberties of all American citizens.

    "...The Supreme Court decided not to rule on Padilla's case in 2004, sending it back to lower courts to spend over a year working its way back to the top. Now his case has made it back to the Supreme Court. Again, the Supreme Court is about to decide whether to hear his case. And, again, the government has decided that, at its discretion, it will grant Jose Padilla his constitutionally guaranteed rights.

    The strategy is clear. The government will now try to convince the Supreme Court and that Padilla's claims are irrelevant because he's been charged with a crime. By doing so, the government will retain its self-appointed power to lock you up without a lawyer or criminal charges until the Supreme Court rules on your case, which we've seen can take years.

    So, a small degree of celebration is in order. But the problem has always been more about what power the president claims to have than about this one case. Now Padilla being charged isn't a sign that the Bush administration tyrants have had a change of heart, but simply a tactic of that tyranny..."


    They're counting on us wearying, weakening, and folding.

    No way.

    ReplyDelete
  28. >>I can't answer every post, and I doubt anyone would want me to. I try to answer the ones that make new points, that are representative of other comments, that disagree with something I wrote, and in all cases only those comments in response to which I have something to say that I think is worth saying. Sometimes I read great and interesting comments that I don't answer because I don't have anything worthwhile to say in response. It doesn't mean I've "ignored" the comment.

    Yeah, my opening was pouty. I'm not the story here, nor are you, and I'm aware, in my more levelheaded moments, that I'm certainly not important enough for you, or anyone else, to deliberately single me out for any sort of treatment. Sorry about that. I'm home with a sick six year old today and very, very tired.

    >>I read your theories. I think they're plausible. But for the reasons I outlined, I don't think that's what will happen. I didn't "ignore" your comment. I read it and didn't respond because I didn't think I had anything particularly noteworthy to say in response.

    Okay.

    >>I do find the belief that Bush opponents will inevitably lose to be frustrating at times because I think it's unwarranted defeatism and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I agree with that. That's not what I said. I disagree with your assessment that Bush will never support or embrace Specter's legislation, if it comes to his desk, and I said why. I have never said "we can't win". I find your post "The Long Hard Slog" to be wonderfully encouraging, in fact.

    In this specific case, however, I disagree with the points you are making. There is no upside to Specter's legislation; we need to focus on blocking it, because I believe it will be accepted by the White House and I believe it will do enormous damage and no good whatsoever.

    >> The Administration is very vulnerable and now is the time to figure out a way to slay the beast, not attribute to them attributes of omnipotence and inevitable triumph which they don't deserve.

    I've never attributed invincibility to them. I've simply said, this legislation will help them immeasurably. They are vulnerable, absolutely... the electorate is yawning and blinking its eyes and very nearly awake... but Specter's proposed law will be a wonderful sleeping pill. The only reason Bush is doing as poorly as he is now is that the media has finally seen him as vulnerable and started throwing, to date, very small rocks. But Specter's legislation, in context with the Administration's effort to terrify the media into silence again, has enormous potential to hurt us badly.

    >>I don't think pessimism can be "debated." Pessimism is an emotion that posits one's own impotence.

    Well, that's one way to look at it. I tend to think it's an embrace of Murphy's Law -- anything that can go wrong will. And I'm simply pointing out that, looking at the record, I see little reason to hope that either the media, the courts, the distinguished political opposition, the Justice Department, or the person in the streets are going to wake up enough to do anything. I'd like to be wrong, but I think, as I have said often, that we normal folks keep waiting for Superman to come and save the day, and he just isn't going to, and we're too fat, lazy, comfortable, and contented to take to the streets on our own behalf.


    >>If someone wants to insist that we're going to lose no matter what and all the cards are stacked against us and the other side is equally brilliant and evil so that this is all hopeless, there's nothing I can do to change someone's mind about that.

    The other side is evil, and some of them are brilliant, and the cards are stacked against us, but mostly, we are lazy and fat and comfortable and we keep waiting for someone else to save us. That's the problem. Specter's proposed legislation plays right to that weakness; it will allow the great unwashed to nod sagely and say "Well, THAT's all right then, we've sorted that out" and absolutely nothing will change... and this time, we won't have an even mildly aggressive media to try and prod us awake again.

    >>All I can do is do everything I can that I think is worth doing, and at the end, I believe it will be effective. If some doesn't think there's anything that can be done, or that what can be done will fail, what do you want me to say?

    I don't believe nothing can be done. I do believe that you are doing what you can, and I do believe there is some power to make a difference in blogging, and agitating our elected representatives, and keeping the media's feet to the fire, and constantly reminding any undecideds out there that what Cheney and his lackeys are doing is wrong, and vile, and horrible, and they lie a lot, and they believe that they can do anything (including get drunk and shoot someone in the face) and get away with it, because The Rich Are Different From The Rest Of Us.

    I think you're doing the right thing, certainly. I simply do not think, in this specific instance, that you are correct. Bush will hate Specter's legislation, but Rove will understand its usefulness, and how bad it would be for Bush to veto it, and Bush will sign it... and then ignore it.

    That's all I'm saying, and since I try to argue as cogently as you do, I supported my statement with why I feel the way I do. That's all.

    >>I just prefer to direct my energies to figuring out ways to overcome them rather than sit around complaining about the unfairness of it all.

    In this case, figuring out ways to overcome these problems would, again, in my opinion, amount more to figuring out strategies to keep this bill off Bush's desk, than pointing out how it can help us. It can't, and it won't.

    That is all. Again, sorry for the hissy fit.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous4:43 PM

    Please put things in proper persepctive.

    When I see a FauxNews poll, they are so far skewed to the conservative side it is hard to believe the results are not somehow manipulated.

    If you look at the SOURCE of the results of the Oklahoma poll, you will notice that it came from KFOR (NBC) Channel 4 in OKC.

    A quick Google search tells you that KFOR-TV was started by (and therefore previously owned by) the Gaylord's (billionaires).

    And, that the Gaylords own Opryland in Nashville.

    Plus they own The Daily Oklahoman, the only major newspaper in OKC.

    And, as OpenSecrets.org shows, the Gaylords have given BIG $$$$$$$ to republican causes:

    Soft Money

    2000, 2002, & 2004 Contributions

    2000 & 1998 Contributions

    1996 & 1994 Contributions

    Therefore, when you quote a poll taken by KFOR, which Gaylord used to own and probably still has significant influence over, you should provide the same disclaimers to the poll results that would be given to any FauxNews poll.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Anon @4:43

    The poll says the exact wording of the question. Assuming everyone who conducted the poll, did so the same, I don't see any problem.

    They did state that they asked 600 people ages 18+ in all 50 states. Does that mean 600 from each state?

    Also, assuming the respondants were randomly chosen, I think this is a fair look at the national attitude and as Glenn states: "people are still open to being persuaded on this question..."

    Some good news indeed.

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  31. The public does not realize that the crisis we face is a crisis of the rule of law, borne of the fact that the President of the United States has expressly arrogated unto himself the power to break the law, and is exercising that power on numerous fronts, not only with regard to
    eavesdropping.


    If that't the case, then the U.S. has been in trouble ever since George Washington ordered his troops to open the mail of suspicious characters. It's growing really thin and repetitive, Glenn.

    It seems when a short legal brief doesn't work, one writes as much as possible to tire out the opposition. Pfui!

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  32. The other day Glenn was defending the illegal occupation at Crooks and Liars and also denying that an opposition to the illegal Iraq war ought to imply an opposition to the illegal Iraq occupation.

    This is false. I did not "defend" the occupation. I said that persuasive arguments about immediate withdraw should be based on the utilitarian claim that we're not doing any good there, rather than some moral claim that "war is wrong and therefore we should withdraw."

    That's because whether we should have invaded originally or not, we're there now, and it's a form of cheap moralizing to just say "we should get out now because war is wrong" and leave the Iraqis with a country that we shattered. If our military can help the Iraqis re-gain stability, we have an obligation to help them. I never said if I favored immediate withdraw or not - only that the only persuasive argument for withdraw was utiltarian, not moral. If you think I argued for ongoing occupation, you didn't read what I wrote very carefully.

    I'm assuming that Glenn agrees that the Iraq war was "technically" illegal. Only "technically" illegal of course because what president ever felt themselves bound by law over foreign policy?

    Which specific laws did the invasion of Iraq violate?

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  33. There is no upside to Specter's legislation; we need to focus on blocking it, because I believe it will be accepted by the White House and I believe it will do enormous damage and no good whatsoever.

    I understand the scope of our disagreement and appreciate your comments. As I said I don't deny there was a little frustration underlying what I was writing. I don't think you're guilty of a sense of inevitable defeatism, but it is out there -- for reasons I understand, but it's still something that needs to be undermined.

    I agree that if the Specter bill were passed by Congress and were making its way to the WH, we should act against it - hard. It's a horrible bill. I just don't see that ever happening - although more people seem to agree with you than me on that.

    And just regarding your last post, I don't trust the "common man" to simply wake up and be driven by his innate goodness to the truth. I trust in the power of individuals to find ways to reach and persuade people to see pretty much anything, not for them to simply wake up and see it on their own. Generally, shifts in how people think, large and small, are caused by people figuring out how to bring about those shifts. All I'm saying is that we can figure that out, too, and if we do, it will work.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous7:25 PM

    Glenn:
    Which specific laws did the invasion of Iraq violate?

    I was surprised by this question. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to try to make a legal case here. However, wars of aggression are illegal under the U.N. Charter, aren't they?

    U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan at the time said the war was illegal under the U.N. Charter. Many legal experts agreed with him; if you google on "iraq war illegality," you'll find a plethora of papers and articles, several of them British, on the international treaties our war of aggression broke. Indeed, I am surprised to find there is any real disagreement on this point, it seems as clear as the illegality of warrantless wiretapping.

    The only type of war allowed under the U.N. Charter is a war of self-defense, and this was not one of those.

    The Bush government tried and failed (not for lack of bribing and threatening other members) to get the Security Council to endorse its proposed adventure in Iraq. The SC disagreed with Bush's claim that Iraq had failed to comply with its latest resolution. Indeed, Iraq did allow the inspectors back in, did produce the required massive report on its weapons status, and did comply with some lesser demands as well, including destroying some rather short-range rockets.

    To my eyes, and many others, Hussein seemed desperate to avert the attack, as shown in particular by his complying with the terms of the inspection, which were after all quite onerous and humiliating. (Certainly we would never agree to anything so invasive.) His willingness to comply apparently caught the Bush people by surprise. Their reaction in general was to talk AS IF Saddam had NOT agreed to anything - even to this day, operating from some alternate reality, Bush claims that Saddam could have avoided all this if he'd agreed to let the inspectors back in.

    In any case, I don't see how this can plausibly be seen as a war of self-defense. Even if Saddam had been harboring any of the weapons the Bushies falsely claimed he was, nobody even tried to argue that he was suicidal enough to try to attack us with them. If he'd managed to get a nuclear bomb delivered to America - with rockets he didn't have - his entire country would have been instantly annihilated. Surely he knew that. So unless he was more of a suicidal lunatic than any previous tyrants of the nuclear era have proven to be, our "shock and awe" attack was not a war of self-defense, but rather of aggression. And surely it felt that way to the citizens of Baghdad as they observed us after our bombing raids guarding their oil ministry and letting their libraries, schools, hospitals and museums be looted and burned. I remember reading that occupiers have responsibilities under international law for maintaining security and infrastructure, but, unfortunately, I don't remember what the laws were exactly - maybe someone else here will know. If I'm right about that, not only the attack itself but the way we failed to protect the citizenry afterwards was criminal.

    (cross-posted with previous poster)

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  35. Anonymous7:51 PM

    Mr. Greenwald says: “Every recent poll, including yesterday’s CBS poll..., shows that a majority of Americans already believe that the President’s warrantless eavesdropping is illegal.
    ...UPDATE II: Markos posted an amazing 50-state survey...”
    Yes, it is wonderful for morale to read these numbers. However, saner heads want to know whether or not the results can be taken as fact or are they just ginned-up misrepresentations. Wingers are pretty cynical...and they have facts:
    “...CBS slanted in favor of Democrats its poll that found Bush has a 34 percent approval rating and a 59 percent disapproval rating, an all-time high for a CBS poll. The ...poll (even after being weighted) had a population of only 28% Republicans to 37% Democrats.

    How To Slant A Poll 101
    "Today, we're going to look at two of the techniques that are often used by the mainstream media to slant polls against Republicans, both of which are on display in the latest CBS poll.”
    An unbiased poll would have shown: “Bush's real approval rating among voters who'll actually be going to the polls in November is probably somewhere roughly between 42.5 - 48.5.”
    If you are going to beat them, it is important to start out knowing what you are actually up against. Or maybe it is better to think America is just waiting for your message. I think Mr. Greenwald is right when he says it will be a long, hard slog, but doable.

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  36. I was surprised by this question. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to try to make a legal case here. However, wars of aggression are illegal under the U.N. Charter, aren't they?

    What is a "war of agression?" Specifically. Bill Clinton's use of military force in Yugoslavia was without UN approval. Was that "illegal"? Was that a "war of aggression?"

    When I accuse someone of violating a law and acting illegally, I cite the law, the provision which I believe has been violated, and I explain why I believe the law has been broken.

    When people make the claim that "the invasion is illegal," I almost never hear any such specificity. That's why I'm asking for someone to specifically cite which law has been violated and how.

    And the elected government of Iraq wants us to remain in Iraq. They fear that if we leave, full scale civil war will engulf that country. Does that matter - either morally or legally?

    Personally, I expect and demand that the President of the U.S. will abide by the laws of the United States -- which include the U.S. Constitution, laws enacted by the Congress (or state legislatures) and constitutionally ratified treaties. I do not demand that the President comply with vague, shifting and ill-defined precepts of "international law," whatever that might mean, particularly when it comes to defending what are perceived to be the vital interests of the U.S., in which case I expect the President to act in accordance with U.S. law and to do what is necessary to defend American interests.

    But if someone wants to accuse the U.S. of engaging in "illegal" behavior, I think it's incumbent on the accuser to specify which laws they are talking about.

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  37. Yes - while they remain occupiers that is. It's a war crime; one of many. However the fact that Bush is commiting war crimes by itself wouldn't make the entire war illegal. Both legal and illegal wars can have war crimes.

    If our immediate withdraw tomorrow would result in the explosion of a civil war that would kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, whereas our remaining there would enable the violence to remain under control and spare those lives, would you still be in favor of immediate withdraw?

    Did you believe that Clinton's military deployments in Yugoslavia without UN approval violated "the law"?

    If it's so clear and obvious that our occupation violates "the law," why can't you cite a single specific provision of any law that we have violated?

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  38. Bush used force and the threat of force and is therefore a law breaker. Bush continues to use force in Iraq and therefore continues to break the law.

    So all war is barred by the UN? Every war is an illegal war by your definition, right? How about if a country believes (erroneously as it turns out, but genuinely believes) that another country is a threat. Is it "illegal" to remove the threat from that country?

    And our troops are there now in accordance with the desire of the elected Iraqi government, which does not want us to leave. How does that affect your calculus?

    And I asked you this:

    If our immediate withdraw tomorrow would result in the explosion of a civil war that would kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, whereas our remaining there would enable the violence to remain under control and spare those lives, would you still be in favor of immediate withdraw?

    Can you answer that?

    I also asked you - was Clinton's bombing campaign in Yugoslavia "illegal"? Was Clinton a war criminal?

    Can you answer those questions?

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  39. Anonymous8:39 PM

    Forgive me, because I am yet another non-lawyer, but to cite UN charters may be a very questionable to hold the President of the US to account for law breaking. Unless a treaty is ratified by the congress as US law, than I believe it is no more than a “gentleman’s agreement” among nations. According to the Constitution, the President is held in check by the two other branches, and is not above any laws of the US.

    To say the President acted illegally and can be prosecuted by the US for breaches of UN charters, is like having a citizen of the US, let’s say a woman, being arrested for not wearing a covering on her head or face because it breaks some Saudi law. It just doesn’t happen. Apples & Oranges.

    However, I may be wrong!

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  40. Starting a war is illegal. Participation once the war is started is possibly legal. Two excpetions apply: (1) defence of self

    So what if one country genuinely believes that starting a war is necessary for self-defense, even if turns out (based on things they find out once they start the war) that they're wrong? Is that "illegal"? Shouldn't it be measured by the state of knowledge at the time?

    Clinton could have approached the UN SC over authorisation for Kosovo use of force. He didn't because he knew he'd be refused.

    So that means Clinton was a war criminal, too - just like Bush. Should he be hung at the Hague?

    Btw are you seriously trying to tell me you think if a country invades another and sets up fake "elections" then the government so imposed is NOT a puppet government?

    I don't know of anyone who claims that Iraq had anything other than fair elections. You sure do make a lot of claims with no citation or support. Whoever claimed the Iraqi elections were "fake"?

    And if you answer only one question, please answer this one, which I've asked four times now - I'm sure you can keep up:

    If our immediate withdraw tomorrow would result in the explosion of a civil war that would kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, whereas our remaining there would enable the violence to remain under control and spare those lives, would you still be in favor of immediate withdraw?

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  41. Anonymous9:23 PM

    Glenn:

    Pictures and men (some 'weller' than others) are hung.

    Executionees are hanged.

    Rick

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  42. Anonymous9:25 PM

    Finally, some event will occur to take us into sadness and then we will come to acceptance and peace, until the cycle starts all over again.

    This was part of an interesting post comparing the cycle of public emotions to the well recognized stages that define the greiving process when someone experiences the death of a love one.


    Am I correct in concluding this poster is pessimistic and thinks that once the public has entered the acceptance phase of the cycle, it will be business as usual in this country?

    If so, I would like to point out why I don't think the analogy holds up.

    When someone dies, there is nothing you can do about it. Death is final. You either come to accept it or you are destroyed by a neverending sorrow.

    Fascism, lawlessness, and arrogance are not, however, final.
    You don't have to come to accept them to continue living your life productively. As a matter of fact, accepting them can destroy you.

    They can be fought against, fought against, and fought against until they are defeated.

    There is no need for the American people to go through the grieving cycle here. The better analogy would be to an alarm clock with a snooze feature.

    If you are very sleepy, the first time it rings, you roll over and hit the snooze feature, and go back to your deep sleep.

    The next time, you hit it again, but you are more awake, and caught between sleep and awakedness.

    After it goes off repeatedly, you finally wake up and get out of bed.

    Glenn is arguing, if I understand him completely, that the voices that unite in opposition to these illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional outrages are the alarm clock.

    The public is still sleeping. The more the alarm clock rings, no matter how long it takes, the public will finally wake up.

    One more point: Headhunters look for the top candidates, the smartest people with the best resumes, to assume leadership roles in companies.

    I hope Glenn's new plan will do the same. I hope it will attempt to get the most effective people to volunteer to be part of the Big Alarm Clock, and I hope that includes Paul Craig Roberts, Lou Dobbs, Richard Dreyfuss and other high visibility, articulate people like that.

    The truth is that the louder the ringer on an alarm clock, the quicker it finally gets you up.

    Just as Karl Rove is said to be Bush's "brain", and Kennedy had his own "brain trust", the Glenns of this world, not that there are that many of them, are the brains who design the alarm clock.

    But the "ringer" will be more powerful if it includes high visibility, intelligent, impassioned, articulate, recognizable figures to sound the alarm.

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  43. Anonymous9:26 PM

    In answer to your question above, Glenn, yes, I'd stay if it were that clear. But actually, I don't know what the repercussions will be if we go or stay, and I'm glad it's not up to me to try to extricate ourselves from this mess without perpetrating more harm.

    I was just asserting that the invasion itself was illegal under the U.N. Charter. I doubt highly that the Bush Administration really believed for a minute that we were under a real threat; they wanted their war. They twisted the "intelligence" to make their case. And they never gave the slightest rationale for why Saddam would be suicidal enough to attack us even if he had the weapons which he didn't have, and which some experts were saying even at the time he didn't have.

    I'm confused about what seems like a casual disregard for the importance of international law on the part of a civil rights attorney I admire. Does not compute! We are signatory to the U.N. Charter. Doesn't that matter?

    Below is a letter in the Manchester Guardian from 14 law teachers explaining why an invasion would be illegal under the U.N. Charter. I selected it from among various longer papers asserting the illegality of the invasion, which I found through googling.

    When, looking for the other side, I tried googling on "legal war Iraq," I found only some gobbledygook speeches by John Yoo...

    This seems to me as clearly breaking the law, as the warrantless eavesdropping. The U.N. Charter is the law of the land here. If we don't abide by it, the U.N. becomes as meaningless as not abiding by laws passed by Congress renders Congress meaningless.

    And I don't agree that it's okay for the president of the United States to invade another country to defend the "vital interests" of the United States. Depending on how you define your own vital interests, that could easily be a warrant for any country to attack any weaker country - and justify it because it is advancing one's own vital interests.

    That's what the United Nations was established to prevent, and that's why, unless you are under armed attack, you're supposed to take it to the Security Council. Which we did. And the Security Council said no. Imagine if it were some other country, any other country, which behaved as we did, how our government would react.

    Friday March 7, 2003
    The Guardian

    We are teachers of international law. On the basis of the information publicly available, there is no justification under international law for the use of military force against Iraq. The UN charter outlaws the use of force with only two exceptions: individual or collective self-defence in response to an armed attack and action authorised by the security council as a collective response to a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression. There are currently no grounds for a claim to use such force in self-defence. The doctrine of pre-emptive self-defence against an attack that might arise at some hypothetical future time has no basis in international law. Neither security council resolution 1441 nor any prior resolution authorises the proposed use of force in the present circumstances.

    Before military action can lawfully be undertaken against Iraq, the security council must have indicated its clearly expressed assent. It has not yet done so. A vetoed resolution could provide no such assent. The prime minister's assertion that in certain circumstances a veto becomes "unreasonable" and may be disregarded has no basis in international law. The UK has used its security council veto on 32 occasions since 1945. Any attempt to disregard these votes on the ground that they were "unreasonable" would have been deplored as an unacceptable infringement of the UK's right to exercise a veto under UN charter article 27.

    A decision to undertake military action in Iraq without proper security council authorisation will seriously undermine the international rule of law. Of course, even with that authorisation, serious questions would remain. A lawful war is not necessarily a just, prudent or humanitarian war.
    Prof Ulf Bernitz, Dr Nicolas Espejo-Yaksic, Agnes Hurwitz, Prof Vaughan Lowe, Dr Ben Saul, Dr Katja Ziegler
    University of Oxford
    Prof James Crawford, Dr Susan Marks, Dr Roger O'Keefe
    University of Cambridge
    Prof Christine Chinkin, Dr Gerry Simpson, Deborah Cass
    London School of Economics
    Dr Matthew Craven
    School of Oriental and African Studies
    Prof Philippe Sands, Ralph Wilde
    University College London
    Prof Pierre-Marie Dupuy
    University of Paris

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  44. In answer to your question above, Glenn, yes, I'd stay if it were that clear.

    If that's the case, you are justifying (what you believe to be)an illegal act on the ground that the illegal act will yield consequences that you like. Isn't that a lot like what the Bush Administration is arguing as to why its violations of FISA should be excused?

    I'm confused about what seems like a casual disregard for the importance of international law on the part of a civil rights attorney I admire. Does not compute! We are signatory to the U.N. Charter. Doesn't that matter?

    Well, I'll have to ask you this, too, then - Clinton deployed military forces in Yugoslavia with no UN approval, and there was not even an argument to be made there that it was self-defense. So was that illegal? Was Clinton a war criminal?

    I think it's far from clear that the invasion of Iraq violated the UN charter. I suppose it all depends on how sincere or insincere you think the belief was that Saddam was a genuine threat.

    And whether things like the UN charter even constitute "law" in any meaningful sense is, for multiple reasons, very much in question as well. We organize ourselves as nation-states, not under a world government. There is no "international government" that enforces "international law" and Americans are not bound by any government that exists outside of the parameters of the U.S. constitution - nor, in my view, should we be. I believe in the U.S. constitution and our system of government, not some amorphous set of ill-defined contracts and principles that don't really exist except in a bunch of international law professors' conferences.

    The law by which we and our political officals are bound is American law, not vague and unaccountable concepts of "international law." It seems clear that you believe that also since you say that you would endorse what you think is an "illegal" occupation of Iraq if that would yield good results. That doesn't sound like you really believe that it is "illegal" in any meaningful sense of that word.

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  45. And about this . .

    There are currently no grounds for a claim to use such force in self-defence. The doctrine of pre-emptive self-defence against an attack that might arise at some hypothetical future time has no basis in international law.

    So a country during World War II would have had to have waited for Germany or Italy to physically attack it before it could "legally" engage the fight, even if it was highly likely that the country in question would be attacked if it waited? I would hope that no U.S. President would ever submit to such self-destructive concepts, no matter how many Dutch law professors decree that doing so is required by "international law".

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  46. Anonymous11:01 PM

    Glenn writes: And whether things like the UN charter even constitute "law" in any meaningful sense is, for multiple reasons, very much in question as well. We organize ourselves as nation-states, not under a world government. There is no "international government" that enforces "international law" and Americans are not bound by any government that exists outside of the parameters of the U.S. constitution - nor, in my view, should we be.

    All of course true. Law requires enforcement mechanisms, or else the provisions called "law" are merely rules, suggestions, guidelines etc.

    In no way should the United States submit itself to international enforcement mechanisms. Our sovereignty should not depend on the vagaries of the United Nations, many of whose members hold obscene notions of what is, or should be, legal or not.

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  47. Anonymous11:12 PM

    Bingo. It's weird. So was the dismissal of traditional international law merely because it's not written down. Does Glenn also dismiss English Common law?

    Good point, in Glenn's favor. At the Founding we accepted almost the entire bulk of the English common law corpus, but we then evolved in some very different ways, and not at all like the UK in some very important respects. Among many other distinctions, our common law is cabined by our written Constitution.

    It is called sovereignty.

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  48. Hm. First to mention Hitler!

    That was you who was the first. If you're going to roll out your little International A.N.S.W.E.R. cliches, at least keep track of who it applies to. Here was the "first mention (of) Hitler":

    This issue is who makes that determination. All dictators justify their aggression with propaganda like this. Hitler said Poland had to be invaded because Germans were being terrorised by the Poles.

    Well with due respect Glenn you claimed that you didn't know binding international law as a concept existed a few post back so your opinion doesn't seem very well informed.

    I asked you to which specific laws you were referring because you came here excitedly spouting all sorts of accusations about "illegal" acts without once specifying which law you believed has been violated.

    That's because you're not actually talking about law, but merely your own individual sense of right and wrong which you want to impose on others by pretending that it has the force of law. Far more often than that, when people start spouting what "international law" requires, that's the exercise they are engaged in.

    So was the dismissal of traditional international law merely because it's not written down.

    It's not "merely because it's not written down" that makes "international law" so problematic, although that is a pretty big problem. It's that American citizens have no representative institutions to define and apply this "law" and there is no accountability. You want a world government that has not been elected and which operates outside of our Constitution.

    The American revolution was founded on the principle that any "law" requires the consent of the govern, and that there has to be some representative nexus between the governed and those applying and making the law. That connection is absent between American citizens and this unwritten international law that just gets decreed by floating international law professors. It is antithetical to everything our country is founded upon.

    All of the "rules" you keep making up - about which governments are legitimate, how it is determined which governments can speak for their people, what happens during an occupation - all of that is just made up at of thin air. It has no basis, no legitimacy from the consent of those to whom you seek to apply it. It is not "law". It is your ideology that you want to impose by dressing it up as law with no safeguards, no representative legitimacy, no clear framework, nothing.

    Americans are bound by the treaties their governments sign and which the Senate ratifies. But Americans approved of the war in Iraq based on notions of self-defense, which seems to be consistent with the UN charter.

    That's why you skirted the question I asked you about whether you would favor the ongoing American occupation if YOU KNEW, or believed with a reasonable certainty, that our withdraw would trigger a civil war that results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

    You can't answer that question, because anyone other than moral monsters would insist that we not immediately withdraw if our doing so would provoke a massive civil war and result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. But once you say that you want U.S. troops to stay under those circumstances, it demonstrates that there is no "law" of any kind governing the situation. Like the decision about whether to go to war, these are all just moral and political choices that every country has to make, and there is no "law" which is binding that compels one action or the other.

    Law requires a clear, written set of rules -- consent of the governed -- and agreed-to enforcement mechanisms for violations of the law. None of those attributes exist for "international law," which is why - outside of a narrow set of treaties - that term is an oxymoron.

    Finally, I can't help but note that under your system of "law," Saddam Hussein would be restored to power. Didn't he violate your "law" many times? Is he a war criminal? Hasn't he violated numerous UN decrees? How can your "law" call for the elevation to the Presidency of a country someone who has repeatedly violated that very "law"? What kind of system of "law" is that?

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  49. Seriously. WTF?

    We were discussing whether there is such a thing as "international law." Even treaties are NOT that. Ratified treaties are a component of U.S. law only, not "international law."

    For someone who wants to have the world ruled by this amorphous set of unwritten "international law" principles, you ought to have mastered those distinctions.

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  50. Anonymous12:52 AM

    davidbyron,

    You seem to be really hung up this Glenn dichotomy good/bad thing. I think all of Glenn’s points are consistent and not at all contradictory.

    I am not a fan of this Administration (in fact I think it is the worst in history), nor do I think this war was justified. However, you have to separate your legal issues with regard to US application.

    When the congress granted AUMF to the President, it gave a permission slip for the President to use that force as he deemed necessary (a congressional cop out and as it turns out a very bad idea). That being said, I supersedes any existing, ratified treaties and certainly any more ambiguous international agreements. The US has never pretended to yield its sovereignty to any nation or group.

    Now, you may see the President’s actions as a violation of international law, and you may be very well substantiated, but that does not mean that the US congress can hold the President in contempt of its laws. Likewise, I think it will be a very, very unlikely scenario when a US President is tried for war crimes in an international court.

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  51. Anonymous1:17 AM

    I strongly agree with your third point and like you I have been making the point from the beginning. While I am not a lawyer, I have analogy which I think clarifies the point.

    It is useful to think of the FISA law as analogous to a DUI law. DUI laws are in place because if you drive under the influence you are more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than if you were not under the influence. If you are driving under the influence you have broken the law regardless of whether that drinking has lead to a accident or not. The FISA law is in place because eavesdropping without a warrant can more easily lead to the abuse of the eavesdropping power than eavesdropping with a warrant. If you eavesdrop without a warrant you have broken the law regardless of whether you have abused the eavesdropping powers.

    In both the case of DUI and extra-FISA spying the perpetrators have engaged in irresponsible behave at best.

    From a political point, it is important not to hammer the abuse angle. Doing so would be setting the bar too high.

    I apologize if I have repeated anything said in the 75 comments which were made when I began to post this. I don’t have time at the moment to read all of the comments.

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  52. Anonymous1:29 AM

    "If that's the case, you are justifying (what you believe to be)an illegal act on the ground that the illegal act will yield consequences that you like."

    That's unfair!!! You asked a hypothetical question. It feels like you intended it as a trap.

    Presumably we will leave Iraq, sooner or later. I would want to do so with less additional cost in life rather than more, if I was somehow wise enough to know which course would lead to less loss of life. Murtha and many others believe that Iraq would be better off if we left sooner rather than later. But IF it were true as YOU postulate that waiting would at this point would be much less harmful to Iraqi society than leaving, and IF we somehow could KNOW this fact ahead of time - THEN - in terms of the purely hypothetical assumptions underlying your question - I'd agree -- of course I'm for minimizing further cost in human lives. You knew I would be. You knew that less loss of life would be a "consequence" I would "like."

    Would that our leaders were concerned about loss of life.

    Of course we won't altogether leave Iraq ever; half the reason we went in was to construct permanent bases in the Middle East. See the Project for a New American Century's document "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

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  53. Anonymous1:38 AM

    davidbyron,

    You were quoting me not Glenn when you were addressing the AUMF scenario. As previously stated, I am not a lawyer, so I may not have the argument nailed down. But, what I was referring to specifically, were international agreements or treaties that the AUMF supersedes. Meaning any previous agreements about when to use force were no longer applicable.

    That does not make your argument about AUMF superseding FISA valid. The AUMF did not have in it any provision to override existing law wrt wiretapping. The AUMF was explicit in its authority to use military force. So any treaties or laws requiring the Presidents use of force were superseded. Since no language in the AUMF addressed surveillance, the existing laws stand as they are written.

    You have to remember that congressional authorization with specific dictates will only supersede other laws specified. Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.

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  54. Anonymous1:46 AM

    p.s.

    On Kosovo, I don't think that discussing Kosovo sheds much light on Iraq, or vice versa. They are very different situations.

    In any case, I'll just mention that as always national security was invoked; NATO claimed that instability in the Balkans was a direct threat to the security interests of its members. I wasn't following closely the lead-up to that war, but it too was probably illegal under the U.N. Charter. A mitigating circumstance however (at the sentencing, if NATO leaders were to be brought before a court) might be the lives saved in a genocidal situation; humanitarian impulses were inarguably involved.

    Not necessarily true in Iraq: Donald Rumsfeld was pals years ago with Saddam and our government supported him even when he was known to be involved in "gassing his own people"; if the Iraqi people's welfare were really a factor here, wouldn't we have shunned him back then too? And let's not forgot the Kurds we encouraged to revolt during the first Iraq War, and then abandoned to be slaughtered wholesale.

    The Defense Department's conduct of the occupation involved utterly ignoring the State Department's plan for preserving the cultural life of the country. If we'd gone in and not made such a mess of another country but instead really had brought them a freer better life, I probably would consider that a mitigating factor too. But we for example smashed Fallujah, making the population at large pay for the actions of a few - some of the stories out of Fallujah are just mind-boggling, and would on the face of them amount to war crimes.

    And yes, punishing whole towns for the crimes of a few is also against international law.

    Which I have a great deal of respect for. I don't consider them vague and shifting. The Geneva Conventions, the disarmament treaties, and the United Nations were advances in human civilization and I would have preferred to see the U.N. strengthened rather than weakened these past several years. The International Court of Justice at the Hague is also an advance, and we ought to sign on.

    We should abide by the international treaties we sign, I'd have thought that was self-evident. By so doing, we set an example for other countries. If we sometimes have to sit and listen to others rag on us as a mean imperialist power - well, we ARE a mean imperialist power. We've always had a dark side, since the European immigrants chased the Indians off their land; but we used to have this other brighter side, and our light has been dimmed by the carnage we have caused.

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  55. Anonymous2:11 AM

    Brambling,

    Just wanted to say, excellent post.

    I agree with nearly all of it.

    I re-read the thread and it seems like the whole argument was a waste of time. I only put in my two-cents because it seemed to me to be a clear misunderstanding on how laws are applied in practicality in the US wrt international endeavors. I may be wrong, but I think david and glenn have much more in common, in general, only glenn knows the law much better than mr. byron, and applies the law strictly and practically. There is a distinction of presidential accountability between violations of international law and violations of US law. While it seems a sin to violate treaties/agreements/conventions that we have signed in good faith with good reason, for practical purposes the application and enforcement of those agreements with regard to US citizens in US courts, are pretty well delineated.

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  56. Anonymous3:10 AM

    I don't know enough about law to contribute anything meaningful to the debate between davidbyron and Glenn, but I will say this.

    Based just upon the arguments both make in this thread, I fail to see how Glenn wins this debate. I find davidbryon's arguments more persuasive.

    If Glenn was focused on the technical point of whether davidbyron's use of the phrase "international law" instead of treaties was inaccurate, why didn't he just address that point to begin with?

    Further, although I am Glenn's biggest fan, I have to assume he must have been tired when he wrote his last posts on this thread. Why he would treat an intelligent, thoughtful, polite, reasonable and knowledgable person like davidbyron so shabbily is beyond me.

    Glenn's use of the word "excitedly" to describe words of davidbyron really shocked me. David's posts were anything but. They were a model of reasoned argument, whether or not Glenn agreed with his David's positions.

    Tomorrow I am going to enter posts about something which I think very importantly relates to this topic of whether the war in Iraq was illegal. It concerns an article which is coming out in the March issue of Harpers which contains a huge amount of information that I would bet nobody is familiar with yet.

    As for the rude, immature poster who made those attacks against davidbyron, I'd like to address you in the only language your puerile mind appears capable of understanding:

    F*ck you, pondscum.

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  57. Anonymous4:36 AM

    Similarly no law is enforcible against the president so he needn't bother to think of them as more than guidelines.

    It is not unenforcible; it is unenforced. President Bush should be prosecuted for violating FISA, but his DoJ is not going to do that. Kind of like when the corrupt local prosecutor won't enforce the drunk driving laws against his friends -- the law is there, but the prosecutor is not enforcing it as against some.

    Mechanisms for enforcing the criminal penalties attendant to FISA exist; they simply are not being employed in this particular instance. That is deeply troubling, but it does not detract from FISA's being a law.

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  58. Anonymous4:37 AM

    What is a "war of agression?" Specifically. Bill Clinton's use of military force in Yugoslavia was without UN approval.

    Good grief. Glenn Greenwald pulls a page out of the Bushie book and says "Clinton did it too". Oops, that's not the Bushie book, that's the war apologist book. Well, Glenn, the war against Iraq was illegal regardless of what Clinton did, so fuck you.

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  59. Anonymous4:42 AM

    But if someone wants to accuse the U.S. of engaging in "illegal" behavior, I think it's incumbent on the accuser to specify which laws they are talking about.

    Just what kind of war-justifying asshole are you, Glenn? The accuser did specify it -- The U.N. Charter, which was crafted in response to Hitler's war of aggression. The legal argument for the illegality of this war has been spelled out in great detail numerous times, as the poster noted and you ignored. You're apparently just as intellectually dishonest as the next scumbag.

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  60. Anonymous5:02 AM

    So all war is barred by the UN? Every war is an illegal war by your definition, right? How about if a country believes (erroneously as it turns out, but genuinely believes) that another country is a threat. Is it "illegal" to remove the threat from that country?

    Is this really Glenn Greenwald? Why is he writing just like Gedaliya? No, not "right", that's a stupid strawman, since no such definition was given. The definition he did give is "self defense", and he pointed out that we did not in fact act in self defense. Are you really so stupid or dishonest to deny that? Nothing can be more dishonest than for a lawyer to justify violating the law because the law is "vague". The international law on this issue is far less vague than the U.S. Constitution is on a great number of issues. If the invasion of Iraq was legal under the UN Charter, then Hitler's invasion would have been legal too -- but the charter was written in response to Hitler's aggression.

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  61. Anonymous5:05 AM

    Personally, I expect and demand that the President of the U.S. will abide by the laws of the United States -- which include the U.S. Constitution, laws enacted by the Congress (or state legislatures) and constitutionally ratified treaties. I do not demand that the President comply with vague, shifting and ill-defined precepts of "international law," whatever that might mean, particularly when it comes to defending what are perceived to be the vital interests of the U.S., in which case I expect the President to act in accordance with U.S. law and to do what is necessary to defend American interests.

    The UN Charter is a constitutionally ratified treaty, jackass.

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  62. Anonymous5:22 AM

    I'm confused about what seems like a casual disregard for the importance of international law on the part of a civil rights attorney I admire. Does not compute! We are signatory to the U.N. Charter. Doesn't that matter?

    It computes; he's another American chauvinist asshole who thinks anything is fair as long as it's in American interests. We saw the same thing with the VietNam war, which was widely supported by Democrats and "liberals" for many years, as well as our assault on South and Central America (and the Phillipines) throughout our nation's history.

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  63. Anonymous5:30 AM

    I think it's far from clear that the invasion of Iraq violated the UN charter.

    And John Yoo thinks that it's far from clear that torture violates the Constitution.

    . I suppose it all depends on how sincere or insincere you think the belief was that Saddam was a genuine threat.

    If you sincerely think that Saddam was a genuine threat to the U.S., then you're a moron. But I'm fairly certain that you don't sincerely believe that.

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  64. Anonymous5:33 AM

    Well with due respect Glenn you claimed that you didn't know binding international law as a concept existed a few post back so your opinion doesn't seem very well informed.

    No respect is due.

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  65. Anonymous5:57 AM

    promulgate: [AUMF] supersedes any existing, ratified treaties

    No, it doesn't; that's absurd. Imagine some other country justifying violating a treaty they have signed with us on the basis that their legislature gave their executive permission to do so.

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  66. Anonymous5:58 AM

    No respect is due.

    Good golly Miss Molly, but we do have us a nest of angry lefties here, yes we do!

    So, let me see if I've got this straight: Glenn sounds like Gedaliya, and he merits "fuck yous" and being called an "asshole" because he advocates that "international law" is pretty much vaporous posturing by law professors and those who mindlessly still worship the United Nations -- a den of corrupt illiberals if ever there was one -- as some sort of exalted body.

    Try selling to the American people that because we ratified the UN Charter we gave up the right to determine for ourselves when it is proper to engage in military force. Suggest that our Congress and President should be subject to trial at the Hague, by a bunch of Europeans.

    Yes, that will go over so well.

    And oh. "Clinton did it too" is entirely appropriate in this instance, as it is not vis-a-vis violating FISA, cuz Clinton didn't do that. But with regard to engaging war without UN approval, well, Clinton did it too.

    Deal with it.

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  67. Anonymous6:16 AM

    Try selling to the American people that because we ratified the UN Charter we gave up the right to determine for ourselves when it is proper to engage in military force.

    Yeah, and we can determine what is torture, who is a prisoner of war, etc. etc. Indeed, Hypatia, far too many Americans are morally bankrupt scumbuckets like yourself. As David Byron has noted, this attack on the rule of law seriously undermines Glenn's ability to argue against Mr. Bush when he uses those arguments.

    But hey, serious and consistent adherence to the rule of law is a "leftie" value.

    And oh. "Clinton did it too" is entirely appropriate in this instance

    Oh yeah, I'm sure a tu quoque argument is "entirely appropriate" whenever you choose to employ one. But you're too morally corrupt to recognize that we don't approve of Clinton's violations of the law, either, so aside from the argument being a fallacy that you can find in any textbook, it fails even as a charge of hypocrisy. Yours, OTOH, is transparent.

    Deal with it.

    It was dealt with, you pathetic asshole. From David Byron:

    "Kosovo was clearly illegal. ... [Clinton] should be arrested and tried by a US court as he commited US crimes. "

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  68. Anonymous6:20 AM

    truth machine:

    Don't shoot me. I approach waving a white flag. While I often disagree with your philosophy, I have started to really enjoy your posts, because you frequently make such terrific points and you are a passionate person.

    That's why I feel deflated when you resort to namecalling and other counterproductive, hostile attacks on Glenn, and others.

    You make points well enough to convince people of your positions without resorting to those tactics.

    I will continue to look forward to your posts, but I am hoping you will change that one aspect of your style.

    One point to Glenn: I am hardly a moral monster, but I think we should probably get out of Iraq immediately for two reasons.

    l) If this were 25 years ago or longer, I'd say we should stay if we thought there was a chance that by leaving, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis would be killed.

    That's because I would have had confidence that our foreign policy was being formulated by at least some people who were moral, "good guys" as it were, and our goal in staying was truly to save lives.

    That's not the case here. Whereas the troops may be honorable, our military leaders and our present government are not, and there is no reason to assume that by staying they will not engage in practices that are brutal, totalitarian, and designed solely to further their agendas rather than to spare needless blood from being shed.

    2) Whereas staying might save a large number of lives, staying might also lead to a greater amount of deaths than would leaving. Things of that nature cannot be predicted with certainty.

    So the argument that lives will be spared could be made both in the case for staying, and the case for leaving. It's not a situation which lends itself to scientific proof, and it's a guess either way. For that reason, leaving and making sure that American lives are not wasted to further no good end is preferable.

    Generally speaking, there's no reason to assume that a bunch of immoral bastards (our present government)are going to take actions which lead to anything good. If sparing lives was high on their agenda, they wouldn't have done many of the things they have done these last five years.

    My gut instinct is that Iraqis are not that eager to kill other Iraqis if there is no brutal dictator there like Saddam, and no foreign presence there like ours.

    I side with those who think that most of the "ethnic" or "religious" conflict there now is now being fomented deliberately by all the groups from other countries who stand to benefit from such conflict. This may not have been true historically, but my instinct tells me it's true now. When you watch interviews with average Iraqi citizens, whether they be Sunnis or Shiites, they come across as eminently reasonable people who just want to lead happy lives as people do everywhere.

    Leaders can never be trusted, of course, and especially leaders who are puppets of outside interests, but there aren't hundreds of thousands of "leaders" and its up to the people there to protect themselves from their own leaders.

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  69. Anonymous6:34 AM

    It was dealt with, you pathetic asshole. From David Byron:

    "Kosovo was clearly illegal. ... [Clinton] should be arrested and tried by a US court as he commited US crimes. "


    Okey-dokey! Let's start up the petitions to arrest both Bill Clinton and George Bush (and would we not have to include the United States Congress as well?) for a violation of international law.

    Sweet Mother of God, yes, this is the path to restoring America to its moorings. Democrats everywhere should carry this banner, as they march to the White House in '08 by prosecuting two Presidents for not submitting themselves to international law.

    Yanno, wherever some of you are coming from, y'all are changing the tenor and tone here, and not for the better. There has been very little obscenity-laden mud-slinging, and mostly civil and substantive discourse.

    I'd prefer it stay substatnive and civil here. But I expect some of you will find it difficult to state your views in any manner other than as a rabid, angry lefties, if this thread is any indication -- thus proving the widespread perception that your cohort is exceptionally nasty. WaPo maybe was right about you, and Glenn Reynolds, too.

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  70. Anonymous6:35 AM

    I often disagree with your philosophy

    What philosophy? My moniker is truth machine, not philosophy machine.

    That's why I feel deflated when you resort to namecalling and other counterproductive, hostile attacks on Glenn, and others.

    When people are demonstrably acting in bad faith, as Glenn is here, rational debate is no longer functioning. Nonetheless, I counter his points, while noting the truth that he is a lying hypocritical scumbag asshole. What other sort of person would argue that, if there's a case where not breaking the law would make you a moral monster, then the law doesn't apply in that case? It is obvious that that applies to all laws, and yet Glenn applies his argument ad hoc to attack "international law". What can one possibly think of a person makes such arguments of convenience?


    Leaders can never be trusted


    That applies to blog opinion leaders, too, sadly.

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  71. Anonymous6:41 AM

    Okey-dokey! Let's start up the petitions to arrest both Bill Clinton and George Bush (and would we not have to include the United States Congress as well?) for a violation of international law.

    Here's how it goes:

    David Byron: Bush broke the law.

    Glenn Greenwald: If you're going claim that, you're going to have to admit that Clinton broke the law too.

    David Byron: Yes, Clinton broke the law too.

    Glenn Greenwald: Should he be hung at the Hague?

    David Byron: No, he should be arrested and tried by a US court as he commited US crimes.

    Hypatia: Okey-dokey! I'm a moron and a scumbag! Hoo whee!

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  72. I just read all the posts since I last posted and I will address the ones which I think are worth addressing. I did start posting very late last night, well past the time I usually stop posting (I am currently in a time zone well ahead of the East Coast), was tired and was therefore probably more insulting to David's arguments than was deserved (although his first post here was to falsely charaterize my argument that I made in a C&L post as a defense of our occupation, which it was not). I was also less clear than I should have been in my arguments, something I will try to rectify now.

    Having said that, I think the use of "international law" to override U.S. sovereignly and restrict what the U.S. can do in defense of its security is a pernicious movement, and many of the people behind it (though not all) are as absolute in their hatred for the U.S. as Bush followers are in their love of Bush, and I find them to be the opposite side of the same rancid coin. There are the points I want to make in response to the various posts:

    (1) While there were many compelling grounds on which to oppose the invasion of Iraq, I do not believe the invasion was "illegal" in any sense. We have a specific law in place from the U.S. Congress authorizing force in Iraq.

    Thus, invading Iraq was unquestionably authorized by the American people through their Congress. That's how laws are made and it is a binding and valid law.

    To compare the invasion to warrantless eavesdropping makes no sense. There are no laws authorizing warrantless eavesdropping. To the contrary, the law unambiguously makes such eavesdropping a criminal offense.

    Warrantless eavesdropping is against the law in the U.S. Invading Iraq was specifically authorized by Congress. Those are just facts.

    (2) A treaty has no more force of law than an act of Congress, and quite possibly may have less, since treaties can be repudiated. As I said four times (despite the suggestion that I evaded the question), I believe it is debatable and ambiguous at best whether our invasion of Iraq violated the UN charter. Most people who supported the war, certainly including American citizens and in Congress, did so on the ground that the invasion was necessary to American self-defense. I didn't believe that argument but I also don't think it's entirely implausible. The U.N. charter surely can't mean that wars of self-defense are allowed only when there is no disagreement over whether the war is really necessary for self-defense. If that's the standard, then no war would ever be justified.

    Either way, the invasion was predicated on a plausible (even if ultimately erroneous) rationale of self-defense, and it is therefore far from clear that it was in conflict with the charter.

    By contrast, it is not debatable that the U.S. Congress authorized the use of force in Iraq. The law clearly authorizes that action, and anyone who wants to claim that the invasion was "illegal" needs an answer for that.

    When you have a vague UN charter which may or may not bar military action, followed by a clear act of Congress which authorizes it as expressly as can be, it is, to put it mildly, very difficult to argue that the war was "illegal" under U.S. law.

    You can argue it was immoral, unnecessary, counter-productive, whatever. But when you have an act of the U.S. Congress expressly authorizing the invasion, a law that is signed into law by the President, it borders on the frivolous to argue that the invasion was "illegal." There is a valid American law in place specifically authorizing it.

    (3) The argument about FISA and the AUMF is NOT that Congress could not have overridden FISA with the AUMF. Congress clearly could have done so had it chosen to. The argument is that it clearly did not do so.

    Congress did, however, clearly and unambiguously provide legal authorization for the invasion of Iraq.


    (4) It matters whether people who claim that the Iraq invasion was "illegal" argued (or now argue) the same thing about Clinton's military actions in Yugoslavia. It matters because it reveals whether this claim is just a means of trying to impose foreign policy preferences under the artificial guise of "law," or whether they are intellectually honest claims about law.

    There are people, like David, who apply this consistently and believe that Clinton (and, I assume, several prior Presidents, if not all of them) ought to be arrested and tried for their "illegal" military actions. That such a view requires those draconian efforts reveals just how inconsistent these concepts are to actual American law, but at least they are being intellectually honest and consistent.

    But many people who claim to be so offended by this "illegal" war and who want Bush tried as a war criminal said nothing and still say nothing about Clinton and Yugoslavia -- which illustrates the point that "international law" claims are usually about trying to impose one's foreign policy views under the guise of law.

    And this comparison matters for reasons beyond just testing one's intellectual honest. If Clinton broke the law with his bombing campaigns, he STILL ought to be arrested and tried. It means there is a criminal on the loose and I don't understand how anyone who believes that he committed such grave crimes can quietly accept that he won't be punished for it (especially while arguing that Bush should be arrested and tried).

    (5) The idea that the current Iraqi government is some sort of hand-picked puppet of the U.S. is just absurd. They are Shiite pro-Iranian theocrats who are among the last people we would choose. You could have 1,000 elections in Iraq and they would win every time.

    Other governments can't take polls of the citizens of a country. They rely on the statements of the government in place. That the Iraqi government, which has the support of all of the major factions in Iraq, expressly wants the U.S. military to stay out of fear that withdraw will result in large-scale violence matters a great deal, both for the legal and moral analysis.

    (6) David argued that Saddam Hussein is still the only legitimate voice of the Iraqi government. So, Hussein, who never had the support of a majority of Iraqis, is the legitimate voice of the Iraqi people. The elected Shiites who plainly have the support of the Iraqis are not -- apparently all because Al Qaeda members and Baathists couldn't run against them in the election.

    There are no "laws" that provide for such a perverse result. These rules are just all made up as people go along and then call them "law". There are no courts to apply those "laws" and no way of discerning what the "laws" are.

    On what basis can the government of Saddam Hussein - who took power in a coup, murdered his citizens indiscriminately, and never had a single election of any kind -- be said to be a "legitimate" government? What is the concept of "international law" that makes Hussein's government a legitimate one?

    That's quite illustrative of the manipulative way in which concepts of "international law" are used. The U.S. is the ultimate evil because the elections held in Iraq didn't allow Al Qaeda or top Baathists to run, and the government which was elected therefore has no legitimacy.

    But the only legitimate government of Iraq is Saddam Hussein, even though he never had an election of any kind and violated every law around.

    A system of rules which yields those sorts of absurdly inconsistent, conceptually unjustifiable outcomes may be a lot of things. "Law" isn't one of them.

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  73. Sorry, I'm freaking out here.

    I've always understood that the unprovoked invasion of Iraq was completely illegal (not to mention immoral, unethical, and, well, straight up evil). If you'd asked me to quote the law that made it illegal, well, I'm not a lawyer, but I would have advised you that I was sure there must be one, and gone off to do a Google search to find it... but I see other people in the thread have already done that for me.

    For what it's worth, I can't dismiss international treaties and the U.N. charter as easily as some here do, or as easily as, apparently, our two most recent Presidents have. I hadn't realized that any of Clinton's military adventures were in violation of treaty or U.N. charter, but if they were, it hardly changes the illegality of the Iraq invasion. I've never been one of these "my guy is always right, your guy is always wrong" fellas.

    Beyond all that, I am somebody who still very much believes in assessing the morality of actions, as well as the legality of them. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I don't think Clinton's military adventures killed that many people, nor do I think they wrecked an entire country that had been perfectly functional before we got there. And I do think his motivations were always humanitarian; he sent troops there to help people in trouble. Whatever Bush's motivations for invading Iraq -- and it's interesting to list all those different motivations, and how many times they have shifted over the years -- I do not believe that any of them were to help the Iraqis, regardless of what he said. And whether he sincerely wanted to or not, he certainly hasn't.

    I have always believed, and will continue to believe, that the U.S.' unilateral, unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation with a functional government (not to mention electrical grid) is an act of egregiously illegal, immoral, and evil aggression. And unless I'm missing something, this particular invasion was far more wickedly murderous and callously disruptive than anything Clinton did.

    But, please, tell me if I'm wrong, because right now, my head is simply spinning at the sight of GLENN GREENWALD telling people in his comment threads that the invasion of Iraq wasn't illegal.

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  74. Truth Machine - I wasn't going to address your posts because your normally sensible approach seemed to be drowned by a pretty severe temper tantrum, but then I saw your comment in the Iraq thread in which you said you agreed with the Comment I left at QandO about Howard Dean, and that really left me a little confused.

    Howard Dean repeatedly said that he believed the U.S. had a legal right to invade Iraq unilaterally, with or without UN approval, if the country believed that doing so was necessary to defend its interests. That's the same argument I'm making here - which makes me a xenophoblic, chauvanistic, fascist, white racist oppressive asshole - and yet, based on your approval of my QandO comment, you don't seem to have a problem with Dean's identical views.

    Here are a few excerpts from Dean's Iraq speeches:

    If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

    Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred.

    Dean is saying, and said many times, that the U.S. must take military action to defend its interests even if it can't secure UN approval for those actions. Was he advocating illegal acts?

    Finally, don't you have a purity test that is a bit too stringent to be workable? I think the invasion of Iraq was counter-productive, unjustifiable, destructive, obtained through manipulation, and -- but I don't think it was illegal. Therefore, I'm a "lying hypocritical scumbag asshole" and a fascist oppressor -and those are some of my better traits.

    The only people who aren't fascist xenophobic racist assholes are people who agree with you on every issue? Isn't that a pretty self-regarding standard you've constructed there? I know that a lot of people derive a lot of personal and emotional satisfaction from morally condeming the world (we are all racist and homicidal and evil and we care only for ourselves, while you are kind, good, just, and love all people, not just the rich white ones, which makes you morally superior in an untold number of ways), but do you actually expect to get anything done - to actually accomplish anything that helps the people or ideals you claim to care about -- with those sorts of purity tests, whereby even one slight dissent from your lists of pieties renders someone the enemy?

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  75. Beyond all that, I am somebody who still very much believes in assessing the morality of actions, as well as the legality of them.

    I haven't argued that the invasion of Iraq was moral, because I don't think it was. I have argued only that it isn't illegal, because like it or not, the American people through their Congress, enacted a law authorizing that invasion. That's how laws are made in our country.

    Calling something "illegal" means something specific. Not all bad things are "illegal." Right now, lying to your friends is legal. That doesn't mean it's moral. And the fact that I point out that there is nothing illegal about lying doesn't mean that I'm a proponent of lying.

    For many decades, slavery was legal in our country. That didn't make it any more moral. And if someone, in 1805, had made the claim that slavery was legal, they would have been right. And it would be incredibly unfair to accuse such a person of endorsing slavery or being a slavery proponent for accurately observing that it was "legal."

    You illustrate the point I've been trying to make perfectly. You are shocked to hear me say that our invasion was not illegal. Why? Not becuase you're aware of any law that makes it illegal (you're not aware of any such law, as you admit). It's because you opppose the invasion and think it's immoral. Therefore, you want it to be "illegal."

    That's not how law works. Morality and legality are completely different concepts. Not everything that is immoral is illegal. Not everything that is legal is moral. One's views of the legality of the invasion have nothing to do with one's views of the morality or justifiability of it.

    Just because I oppose something on policy, moral, ethical or other grounds doesn't mean I'm going to run around claiming that it's "illegal" - particularly when there is a law in place expressly authorizing it.

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  76. Sorry... I'll have to be briefer than I want to be, as I need to catch a bus... but you seem to me to be claiming that, any time it wants to, any regional or national law making body can pass a law allowing them to ignore international treaties they are signatories to, and that makes it 'legal'. I have to disagree. This seems to me to be like saying South Carolina's legislature can pass a law legalizing slavery again, despite the fact that slavery is illegal under the Constitution.

    We're members of the U.N. and signatories to their charter, and it seems to me that others have made it clear in this thread (and I believed it was clear already, I simply couldn't quote the text off the top of my head) that the U.N. charter forbids unprovoked wars of aggression.

    Dean said he felt it would be okay for us to invade Iraq if they were a clear and imminent threat to our national security, and, fine, I won't argue with that... I would regard a country being a clear and imminent threat as being a legitimate provocation to war. But Iraq was in no way an imminent threat to us, there was no provocation, the U.N. forbids unprovoked international military aggression, we blew up their entire country anyway for no good reason... that strikes me as an illegal act, and I honestly don't care whether or not Congress authorized it.

    Are you saying that if Congress passes a law making it legal for the CIA to shoot out of hand any foreign national they feel like, that would actually make it legal?

    Beyond this, there is a practical problem... whether it's legal or not, if America insists on behaving this way, we make ourselves less safe, not more safe. Other members of the international community will (and have) come to regard the U.S. as a clear and imminent danger to their own national security. It's lousy policy, even if it is 'legal'... and I do not believe we can make violating an international treaty 'legal' simply by passing a federal law saying it is. Sorry.

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  77. Anonymous10:35 AM

    Glenn has shown much more patience, and devoted much more time, to these sick claims than they deserve.

    The issue is really simple. David Byron said that the only legitimate government of Iraq is Saddam Hussein. Think about that for a second. That's how these people who claim to believe in international law actually think.

    Anyone who says that Saddam Hussein is a "legitimate" ruler of a Iraq is not only someone who has no belief in "international law". It is also someone whose moral depravity is sick and criminal.

    People who call George Bush a war criminal while claiming that Saddam Hussein is a "legitimate" leader of Iraq are people who believe that the U.S. is the root of all evil in the world. They use concepts of what they call international just as a means for attacking the U.S. (only the U.S. and its allies are ever guilty of anything under these "standards," while the most vicious dictators on the planet, like Saddam Hussein, are always the victims).

    These peoples' allegiance is to proving that the U.S. is evil, not to any concepts of law. They deserve to be as shunned as they are, and if I have any criticism of Glenn here, it's that he's taken these twisted, decietful claims way too seriously and given them far more respect than they deserve.

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  78. Anonymous10:50 AM

    As an observer, and reluctant interjector, of this thread, there are many things I see as clear.

    1) No matter how passionate one feels about issues, it does not have the net effect of making their statements more factual or more legal.

    2) All of Glenn’s postings were consistent with law and fact.

    3) Disingenuous attempts to assassinate the character of posters you disagree with is not only infantile, it is counterproductive and lessens the credibility of your argument. Truth Machine, you may think you are some beacon of enlightened moral “Truth” (and not, as you put it “philosophy”), but you are merely a person who sometimes makes good points based on your “opinions”, not always substantiated by fact or credible arguments. Your attack on me for stating that treaties could be superseded was fallacious and intellectually dishonest in the context to which you made it. You said:

    ” No, it doesn't; that's absurd. Imagine some other country justifying violating a treaty they have signed with us on the basis that their legislature gave their executive permission to do so.”

    Other countries’ can justify violating any thing they want. We may not like it and we may find it immoral, but that does not make our view of their government any less valid. And if that did happen, what would be your suggested remedy? Trial? What if they didn’t comply? Would you authorize invading the country to extricate their leader, or their legislature? Which treaties would you then be breaking? What if it were so clear that the law was violated, yet the UN, as a body, said you had no right to redress your grievance? What then, war I suppose?

    You see, you can ask all the hypothetical questions you like, but when responding you have to stick to facts. Glenn did so in each of his postings. I, like I imagine Glenn, believe that things can be legal without being moral, just, virtuous or right. And since we are a nation of laws, that is where you need to start when attempting to prosecute or defend. It doesn’t matter what you believe, it only matters what you can prove.

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  79. Anonymous10:55 AM

    my post at 10:50 came up as ANON.
    sorry:(

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  80. Anonymous11:16 AM

    Highlander said:

    ”Beyond this, there is a practical problem... whether it's legal or not, if America insists on behaving this way, we make ourselves less safe, not more safe. Other members of the international community will (and have) come to regard the U.S. as a clear and imminent danger to their own national security. It's lousy policy, even if it is 'legal'... “Highlander

    Good point! It does display poor form, even though its legal.

    ”…and I do not believe we can make violating an international treaty 'legal' simply by passing a federal law saying it is. Sorry.” Highlander

    Again, the problem is in what you believe. You see, if we (our congress) pass a law, than that is exactly what makes it legal.

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  81. I already pointed out that whatever your intent it was a defence of the illegal occupation because it sought to counter the argument that the war was illegal.

    There is a huge difference between (a) defending an occupation and (b) rejecting one of many anti-occupation arguments as lacking merit.

    If there are 5 reasons to oppose the occupation - A, B, C, D & E - and I subscribe to A-D but reject E, it means that I accept 4 out of 5 reasons why the occupation is wrong. Only a dishonest person would claim that by rejecting one of the 5 anti-occupation arguments that I am "defending" the occupation. Your first appearance here was to falsely characterize the argument I made.

    So pretty much all US senators and presidents hate America?

    No, because most Presidents and Senators believe that the U.S. has the right to enact laws to protect the interests of the U.S. even if the UN doesn't approve.

    You're the one who believes that the current President and the last President (at least) are criminals who should be arrested and tried for their cimes. I assume you would think the same about the Senators who voted for the use of force in Iraq and/or who favored the use of force in Yugoslavia - which pretty much covers the entire American political spectrum that you think are criminals.

    That stands in stark contrast to your view that Saddam Hussein is the legitimate ruler of Iraq. That's why I react with such opposition and really dislike engaging people who constantly argue that the U.S. is composed of nothing but war criminals - it always comes down to defending morally reprehensible monsters (Saddam Hussein's rule is legitimate) while attacking anything that is American. It is a deceitful world view and a deceitful discussion because there can never be agreement unless one accepts the premise that the U.S. is one of the world's worst instruments for evil, fascism, oppression of the poor, margnialized people of the world (and eventually, if you don't accept that premise, you will be accused of being a fascist, racist oppressor, etc. etc.). That is the agenda that is being pursued and it is just masquerading under illusory and fictitious concepts of law.

    Do you think the Iraq war was a breach of the United Nations charter -- a ratified and signed US treaty?

    I've answered this five times. I think it's an ambiguous and cloudy question as to whether the invasion was a "war of aggression" as opposed to a perceived act of self-defense, but since I believe that the invasion was justified on more or less sincerely held (though erroneous) views that the invasion was necessary for U.S. security, I do not believe it violated the UN charter.

    But regardless, the American people passed a law through their Congress specifically authorizing their political officials to take this action. That specific, subsequent authorization is a valid American law, which makes the invasion legal.

    You can keep asking me the same question and that will continue to be my answer.

    Now please answer this: on what basis of "international law" was Saddam Hussein the legitimate ruler of Iraq, whereas the current Iraqi government is illegitimate?

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  82. But your only defence of Bush is the AUMF which you claim implicitly overrides other laws when you say it does (UN charter) and doesn't override them when you say they don't (FISA).

    For Iraq, the AUMF specifically and unambiguously authorized the action taken against Iraq. There is no question that the Congress approved of this action.

    I haven't given any thought to whether Clinton's military action in Yugoslavia was criminal. I don't know if it is. I'm open to that possibility. I do know that the invasion of Iraq was not criminal because it was authorized by the American people through their Congress.

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  83. You seem to think the standard for attacking another country is "do I think they might possibly attack me?"

    No, I think the standard is: "Is there a substantial enough liklihood that the country will cause an attack on my country in order to justify a war to prevent that attack?" And I do not believe that question is answered by some sort of international law but by a country's own political and moral decision-making calculus.

    The idea that anyone other than the country at risk is going to decide how and to what extent that country can defend itself is a principle I believe is corrupt and wrong.

    Is it your view that Iraq was beleived by Congress to be invading the US when they argued AUMF?

    No. There are more ways to threaten a country than by invading it.

    I'm not going to answer any more of your questions until you explain the principles of international law which render Saddam Hussein a legitimate leader of Iraq but render the current government illegitimate.

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  84. Anonymous12:27 PM

    Glenn writes: No, I think the standard is: "Is there a substantial enough liklihood that the country will cause an attack on my country in order to justify a war to prevent that attack?" And I do not believe that question is answered by some sort of international law but by a country's own political and moral decision-making calculus.

    The idea that anyone other than the country at risk is going to decide how and to what extent that country can defend itself is a principle I believe is corrupt and wrong.


    That bears repeating. It is absolutely outrageous to argue that the current President, likely the last one as well, and most of the House and Senate, should be tried and convicted in a U.S. court for voting in favor of or prosecuting a war(s) that they -- whether wisely or not -- believed was necessary for the protection of their nation and/or its allies.

    No sensible people is going to abandon its sovereignty to whatever high-falutin standards and interpretations of the UN Charter and other UN human rights declarations might prevail among elite professors of international law. These do not dictate approved American interests; Americans, through their legislative bodies and our Executive do.

    That said, Geneva Conventions and other international proscriptions of torture and provisions for the treatment of POWs and the like, those should be adhered to and reflected in American law, because (a) it is the only civilized route to take, and (b) principles of reciprocity inure to the benefit of our soldiers when they are caught and detained during war or other military engagement.

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  85. Anonymous1:22 PM

    Actually, Congress passed the AUMF under reassurances from Bush that he was attempting to find a peaceful way out - he basically said (over and over) that he needed this resolution to strengthen his hand; that it would make war less likely. At the time he was going through the motions of working through the United Nations. Congress could not have anticipated that he would attack EVEN THOUGH Iraq complied with the resolution and EVEN THOUGH Bush's people failed to obtain the Security Council approval for the invasion that they worked so hard, arm-twisting and spying on all their colleagues, to obtain.

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  86. You're a lawyer. I'm saying there is no legal argument that claims the Iraq war was legal. Naturally there are plenty of emotive arguments that don't refer to the text of the law.

    I've given you my legal argument. The UN charter allows wars of self-defense. Most Americans believed this was a war of self-defense and - although I didn't and don't agree with the arguments- I believe there was a plausible case to make.

    IF it was the case that Saddam had or was about to obtain chemical or nuclear weapons, and IF it was the case that he would have given them to Al Qaeda to use against the U.S., would an invasion of Iraq have been consistent, in your view, with the UN charter?

    And I brought up Howard Dean's views to make clear that, by your reasoning, Dean - like most of the U.S. Senators and the past two American presidents (at least), are criminals - in order to show how radical your views are. That doesn't make them wrong at all. Sometimes people with radical views are right and ones with mainstream views are wrong.

    But I think it's important that it be revealed that, at the end of the day, in virtually all cases, the only real point of people who parade around under this oh-so-reasonable banner of "international law" is to show that the U.S. is the world's greatest criminal and the rest of the world - especially murderous dictators - are the only legitimate governments which are nothing more than victims of oppressive American evil. That's why these debates are so dishonest - because you won't reveal your real beliefs.

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  87. The US has no honour as a nation?

    We weren't talking about what you think is "honorable" but about what is legal. They are not the same thing. Although, to you, they are, which has been my point all along.

    You keep arguing as though I accept the premise that our invasion violated the UN Charter. I don't accept that for the reasons I've explained, which is why I asked you this:

    IF it was the case that Saddam had or was about to obtain chemical or nuclear weapons, and IF it was the case that he would have given them to Al Qaeda to use in an attack against the U.S., would an invasion of Iraq have been consistent, in your view, with the UN charter?

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  88. Anonymous2:21 PM

    "This seems to me to be like saying South Carolina's legislature can pass a law legalizing slavery again, despite the fact that slavery is illegal under the Constitution."

    Bad analogy!

    The Constitution has in place equal protections (14th Amendment) to remedy this deviation.

    You keep trying to compare apples and oranges. US legislation will always trump international laws when the laws are addressing the same issue. Which brings us back to AUMF.

    Brambling had a good point about the President’s assuredness that steps to avoid war were being taken. However, the President met the requirements spelled out in the AUMF to proceed with action. I don’t believe his intentions were at all altruistic, in fact they were most probably subversive, but he did conform with the minimum requirements as spelled out in the AUMF. It could be argued that the intent of congress was not entirely adhered to, but intent of legislation is tested by the judiciary, even if congressmen say otherwise. Meaning, the intent would have to have been clearly and explicitly spelled out in the legislation to assure no wiggle room for interpretation.

    As far as the AUMF is concerned with regard to international law, if you read it, it is wholly consistent with and considerate of UN agreements and resolutions.

    In summary, the bad intentions of this President are not prosecutable so long as the law was followed. As G.W. has said (arrogantly and erroneously), he answers to a higher power; well something tells me he will have a lot of splainin’ to do when he is judged in that arena.

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  89. Anonymous2:29 PM

    David Byron demonstrates historical illiteracy:Please tell me your principles for deciding if a government put in power and kept in power soley by a foreign occupation should be considered representative. My answer is easy -- it NEVER is. I also claim the Geneva conventions agree with me, but frankly it's just common sense. You dare to talk about sovereignty and not admit this?

    Then we ought not be recognizing the illegitimate government of Japan.
    Cuz the Evil Imperial Americans imposed it on them, to quote from that link:

    Japan’s current constitution was written in 1946 and adopted in 1947, while Japan was under Allied occupation following World War II. On the occasion of its adoption, one Japanese politician called the document an “ill-fitting suit of clothes,” totally inappropriate as a governmental blueprint for Japan. Observers predicted that the constitution would be replaced as soon as the Occupation ended. Debate over the workability of Japan’s constitution has been a political constant; yet, the document has not been amended since its inception. Much of the ongoing controversy stems from the context in which the document was brought into being.

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  90. Answer your own hypothetical question by reading the law.

    I've already answered this more times than I should have. I believe that if the U.S. (or any country) invades another country because: (a) it has reasonable grounds for believing the invaded country has dangerous weapons and (b) there is a substantial liklihood that it will give those weapons to another party to attack the U.S., then the invasion is an act of self-defense, not aggression, and is therefore NOT in violation of the U.N. charter.

    If nothing else, please digest that this is my view before writing me yet more posts which assume that I believe that the U.S. violated the UN charter.

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  91. Anonymous3:32 PM

    David Byron was wrong and so moves the goal posts:
    Again give me an example of some other country doing this and you thinking it legitimate. A non-US ally.


    You had said:Please tell me your principles for deciding if a government put in power and kept in power soley by a foreign occupation should be considered representative. My answer is easy -- it NEVER is.

    But it was. The U.S. imposed a constitution and democratic govt on Japan, which endures and is recognized to this day. It was necessary to do this, altho the Japan example does not mean such nation building will always work. It seems unlikely that it will in Iraq.

    But nevertheless, Iraq has had democratic elections, and actually drafted its own constitution, unlike Japan which had one imposed. Japan's modern govt was born in U.S. occupation; it was for quite a few years maintained by U.S. occupation, and persists still from its founding in 1946 under foreign occupation. So your categorical "never" is just wrong.

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  92. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Glenn patiently articulates yet again:I believe that if the U.S. (or any country) invades another country because: (a) it has reasonable grounds for believing the invaded country has dangerous weapons and (b) there is a substantial liklihood that it will give those weapons to another party to attack the U.S., then the invasion is an act of self-defense, not aggression, and is therefore NOT in violation of the U.N. charter.

    Mr. Byron, please do internalize the above. And I believe the fundamental disagreement here is regarding who decides when an invasion is within the Charter. My firm position is that it is the United States which determines when it is acting within the bounds of the UN Charter.

    Obviously one can argue whether it has made its decision in good faith or not, but at the end of the day, the final arbiter will be this nation. Not an elite cabal of international law lawyers, European or American pundits, or people commenting at blogs. Legally, the final word rests the United States.

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  93. David - I've said everything I've had to say about this issue, usually multiple times. Whenever one person says they are stopping at any point during one of these long discussions, the other person invariably thinks they're stopping because they are frozen by some great unanswerable point and is running away. I'll have to risk that.

    You are at exactly the point where I said you would end up, at your real goal - spewing accusations that we are just jingoistic nationalists who think that whatever the U.S. does is right because we're bigoted and don't care about the minorities and oppressed people of the world, and therefore endorse any forms of U.S. wrongdoing and evil because we think the U.S. is right no matter what. Yeah, that's really my view.

    You've now arrived at the point where you are just spouting tired ideological cliches -- and I knew you would arrive there, even said so in advance, because I knew from the beginning that your world-view is that the U.S. is the Ultimate Evil and everything you argue is geared towards proving that, but I proceeded to debate in good faith despite my better judgment. Once the "jingoistic/racist/American-is-evil threshold is crossed - epitomized by "It's ok if you are an American. Hypocrisy and criminal behaviour pure and simple" -- the value of the discussion, to the extent it ever existed, exists no more.

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  94. Anonymous4:26 PM

    ”Glenn's position --- that the authorisation [sp.] implicitly tells the president to breach the entire UN charter --- is plain silly.” davidbyron

    That is plain silly because that is not Glenn’s position

    The whole authorisation is littered with UN this and UN that. It's evident that securing the UN charter and it's laws is paramount in the minds of the congresscritters. They say so repeatedly” davidbyron

    The so called “congresscritters” took the UN into consideration while drafting the AUMF, and still concluded that the President could use for as he deemed necessary. The AUMF is the law the President followed to use force, therefore, according to America, the President broke no laws.

    ”So what does Glenn conclude? That they intended to utterly violate the same treaty. But just didn't mention that explicitly..” davidbyron

    Wrong! See above response

    ”I guess you didn't realise what you said fatally undermined your own case did you? Nice one ;-)

    Do you get my drift here? Glenn's saying the congress intent was to breach the UN charter. I am saying their intent was to be consistent with it.”
    davidbyron

    Don’t let your zeal get ahead of you. Your passion is admirable but your logic is fallible. What I said did not undermine my argument or Glenn’s. Nobody has claimed that the intent of congress was to breach UN resolutions. That is merely an argument you keep making with yourself. If you could step down from your pious position for a second, and look at things objectively, you’d see that you are in many aspects, preaching to the choir.

    Glenn’s argument as well as mine is to show that your assertions of what is legal and what is right are not always harmonious. I still don’t see what US law you can prove that the President violated. Remember, the President’s intent is quite an arbitrary concept to convict on. How do you prove his intent, when he clearly says he was acting out of self defense and in the security interests of our nation? Now, it wouldn’t take much convincing for me to believe that he was full of s#it, but I could not convict based on my beliefs if they could not be substantiated by established law.

    On the other hand, perhaps you think the President will be charged in the international area. Fat chance! There is a very easily established defense, as the AUMF was spelled out with consideration of UN resolutions.

    Again, you’re letting your visceral zeal outweigh the facts and proof. Nobody would like to see this President held to task more than I, but it needs to be done with irrefutable, democratic and constitutional precepts.

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  95. Again, you’re letting your visceral zeal outweigh the facts and proof. Nobody would like to see this President held to task more than I, but it needs to be done with irrefutable, democratic and constitutional precepts.

    I agree with this paragraph entirely (I know I said I wasn't posting on this any longer but this is an important point Propulgate made and so I can't help myself).

    I want to see the Bush Administration fall as much as any human being on the planet. Working towards that end has essentially become my full-time occupation. And I would love to be able to say that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, but I can't say that, because I don't think it is illegal, even though I believe it was wrong for multiple reasons.

    And therein lies the critical point. We cannot start calling things "illegal" just because they are wrong and bad. "Illegal" has a very specific and important meaning. It is impossible to say that the invasion was "illegal" when Congress passed a law expressly authorizing it.

    If you start calling things "illegal" just because they are wrong (even though they don't violate an actual law), then you necessarily endorse the converse: that is, calling things "legal" just because they are right (even those they do violate an actual law).

    THAT is what the Bush Administration is doing - claiming that it was justified in engaging in warrantless eavesdropping because doing so was "right", a good idea, with good consequences. They want to conflate "legal" with "right". They want to make "legality" a function of consequences, of whether it yields good or bad results, rather than what the law requires.

    Those would would equate that which is "illegal" with that which is "wrong" - by calling the invasion of Iraq "illegal" when you really mean that it is wrong or immoral or whatever -- are operating on exactly the same principle.

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  96. I will take time to stop and consider things and issue a summary of the conversation this evening which you can reply to if you think it is worth it, but if not I won't draw any negative conclusions.

    OK, good - thank you for a mostly civil and constructive conversation. Keeping these things on track and worthwhile when the differences in viewpoint are so stark isn't easy and requires a lot of effort from both sides.

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  97. Glenn, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the core of this issue is one of law breaking on the part of the Bush administration. Unfortunately, very few politicians (notable exception Sen. Feingold) or the MSM have cast the issue correctly. Bush himself keeps using the same misleading rhetoric of 'when someone in the US is talking to Al-Qaeda, we want to know.' No one can argue the importance of knowing information like that. But if you have to break the law in order to do that, you risk making the laws meanginless. We are not a country where the ends justify the means because if we were, the means would define who we are as a people.

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  98. Whew.

    I think all of us need to put our heads down on our desks for a few minutes.

    Having read through all of this, here's how I see it:

    Glenn: The U.S. Congress passed a law making the U.S. invasion of Iraq legal, regardless of the fact that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was clearly in violation of the U.N.'s charter. Therefore, while one may criticize the invasion of Iraq, and George W. Bush, on many grounds, it is not legitimate to call the invasion 'illegal'.

    davidbyron: The U.S. law that authorized Bush's use of military force, which led directly to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, cannot legitimately override the U.N. charter that the U.S. is signatory to. Furthermore, the wording of the AUMF draws on U.N. authority to justify and bolster its own legality; by doing this, it must be seen as invalid if it is used to defy U.N. authority.

    Me: While the national interests of individual countries will always be viewed as compelling by those individual countries, this is the reason the United Nations was created -- to impose an international structure of legality which will effectively govern most if not all matters of international diplomatic and non-diplomatic intercourse.

    The U.S. insists, when it is in our interests to do so, that various U.N. member states subject themselves to U.N. authority. We cannot then turn around and say, "Well, U.N. authority means nothing to us when we feel like doing something else, because we are mighty and the U.N. can't do jack shit to us". This is not a legal argument; this is simply a bully saying "Yeah, you guys have to play by the rules, but we don't if we don't feel like it".

    David has pointed out the fairly explicit and (to the extent such is possible in diplomatic and legalistic language) nearly objectively precise wording of Article 51 of the U.N. charter, which requires an 'armed attack' on the part of one nation to make another nation's attack on them legitimate.

    Glenn has argued vehemently that there are other compelling interests that can be legitimately substituted for such an 'armed attack', basing his argument, again, on the notion of the sovereign right of all nations to pursue their own compelling national interests regardless of international law. He has, in fact, used the word 'pernicious' to describe the doctrine that individual nation states (or, specifically, the U.S.) should be bound by international law when they feel they have a compelling reason to ignore it.

    And then, somebody else somewhere stated that my analogy of the South Carolina legislature passing laws to make slavery legal again, in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, was a 'BAD analogy', a statement they supported by, apparently, declaring that the U.S. Constitution trumps everything... state law and, apparently, international law.

    This strikes me as being national parochialism of the worst and most dangerous sort, a kind of blind, hostile insistence that one's own particular national interests are far more important than the national interests of any other country, or attempting to maintain a peaceful and relatively harmonious state of international affairs. In the invasion and current occupation of Iraq, the U.S. has essentially said, "Our national interests are so much more important than those of the Iraq nation that we can invade them against the express mandates of the U.N. and the wishes of the international community in general, in response to no legitimate attack or even provocation on their part, just because we feel like it. We can blow their entire nation up, kill hundreds of thousands of their nationals, depose their existent government, destroy their technological capacity, and occupy them indefinitely, for no good reason at all except that it seems like an urgently swell idea to us at the time."

    When China or Korea or Iran or Pakistan swagger around giving speeches like this, talking about the necessity for them to place their own national interests above petty concerns like treaties and international law, we are the first to denounce them and demand that they submit to U.N. authority.

    Apparently, Bush... and I gather, reluctantly, Glenn... view the U.N., its charter, and international law in general as being nothing more than one of several woods and irons that the U.S. carries around in its Rooseveltian golf bag. We take them out and use them to bludgeon other nations into submission when necessary; we completely ignore them when it suits us.

    For the record, I don't hate America, but I do believe that we are either part of the U.N., and we hold ourselves subject to international law, or we don't. I do not believe that any national law making body can make an international crime 'legal' simply by passing a law that says 'well, international law does not apply to us in this case', and I think this argument is especially egregious when the U.S. law in question clearly seeks to derive its authority at least in part from the international law it then ends up ignoring.

    So, sorry... just as I would not be happy if, say, Yugoslavia were to declare that it had compelling national interests that allow it to invade and occupy a neighboring nation in defiance of the U.N., so too am I not at all sanguine with the notion that the U.S. can simply decide when its own national interests justify unilateral military force regardless of the collective will of the international community.

    We are setting a horribly dangerous precedent here; the U.S. has come to be perceived by many governments in the world as very nearly a rogue nation. Compounding that with the declaration that "It's not illegal if we pass a law that says it's not illegal!" is just throwing salt in the wounds.

    By the way, it's no doubt hopelessly naive of me, but having been compelled by this discussion to actually read the U.N. charter myself, I would find Bush's war in Iraq illegal under Article 2, Section 3: "All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered."

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  99. Anonymous12:28 PM

    Highlander & David

    I read the UN charter and several articles relating to it last night, something I never took the time to delve too deeply into in the past. Having read both of your post, I must say that you both make some very excellent and compelling points.

    Highlander made a particularly astute metaphorical analogy:

    “…view the U.N., its charter, and international law in general as being nothing more than one of several woods and irons that the U.S. carries around in its Rooseveltian golf bag.”

    I think that this is exactly how the Administration, the body government and perhaps the majority of Americans see the UN. It seems to be a remarkably reprehensible and cynical view of an Organization which has the primary purpose of maintaining global peace, but it is probably the perception, nonetheless.

    Highlander also noted:

    ”Compounding that with the declaration that "It's not illegal if we pass a law that says it's not illegal!" is just throwing salt in the wounds.”

    Aye, there’s the rub! It is an arrogant and perhaps even dangerous stance, but I think that it is our legal reality.

    Although, the UN, on its face, is an organization with a very laudable mission, it is important to remember that it is still comprised of individuals who represent numerous nations, all of which have their own agendas (not always in line with the UN charter or mission). I guess you can say the US is a perfect example of that idea. There are five permanent members of the UN security council, upon which requires unanimous consent to allow military action.

    Let’s say, for arguments sake, that there is a country that we know is out to do us harm, I mean we really know this. Now, we address the UN with our concerns and 3 or even 1 of the members (who have/has a vested interest in military action not being taken against a nation, be it lucrative trade deals, essential commodities or even religious or ideological) vote not to allow us to proceed with action.

    Can you say that it is in the best interest of the United States to do nothing until attacked by an enemy we know is intent on destroying us?

    Is it only self defense if we are being militarily assaulted?

    Should the United States yield its sovereign right to defending itself to other nations?

    Let’s say this same scenario led us to take action and the targeted nation was, in fact, secretly breaking international laws and was fully capable and prepared to launch a devastating attack against us.

    Does that make our actions of going against the UN’s resolution any more or less credible?

    Say we had the knowledge that Japan was going to attack us in Pearl Harbor, is it best that we wait for the attack before heading it off, so we can claim self defense?

    Where is the line drawn for self defense?

    These are all difficult questions. In the case of Iraq, we were dreadfully wrong, perhaps even intentionally misled. Hindsight is a wonderful way to judge bad choices. The idea of preemptive war is very dangerous, and generally, universally condemned. We opened up a nasty can of worms, to be sure.

    Still, does that make our actions of going against the UN’s resolution any more or less credible?

    Is it possible that the ends, can in fact, justify the means?

    IF we were correct with Iraq, would all be well that ends well?

    I think it is sad to be so cynical. But is it unjustified? The UN can be a beacon of peace in the world, but its strength is tested by its weakest part. There are bad actors out there, and this Administration is possibly a prime example of that.

    All that being said, the main argument is the legality of Bush’s, and by proxy, the US actions vis-à-vis the UN charter and the AUMF.

    I think it is very easy to defend the case that the US acted in good faith internationally. There is no large international cry to prosecute the US for its actions. There is no Tribunal being arranged to prosecute G.W. for war crimes. If our actions are not legally contested (internationally), does that, by default, make them legal? And does the inaction of the international community, assign complicity to the alleged legal breaches of the US?

    As far as Bush’s actions being legal in the United States, Congress had ceded the responsibility to the President to make the call (if you will) on military action by passing the AUMF. It is also highly improbable that the SCOTUS would use international law to convict a President, as it adheres to Constitutional Law. It has not been until very recently, that the SCOTUS even considered international agreements at all. Besides, the congress gave careful consideration to the UN when drafting the AUMF, and although the AUMF cites the many UN articles, it stipulated that the criteria had been met, and ceded the right to the President to take military action.

    David said:

    ”AUMF did not unconditionally authorize [sp.] force
    You repeatedly claimed the AUMF authorised [sp.] the use of force. It didn't do so unconditionally. It required that any use of force should be "necessary and appropriate".”


    The AUMF gave the President the authority to act on what he deemed to be “necessary and appropriate.” The President met that CONDITION, by deeming it so. The President followed the AUMF to the letter, and by doing so, followed the law.

    I will reiterate my previous opinion.

    Nobody would like to see this President held to task more than I, but it needs to be done by adhering to irrefutable, democratic and constitutional precepts.

    As abhorrently as this Administration has conducted the affairs of our nation, especially with regard to the complete degradation of international support, I can not conclude that he acted illegally in this respect.

    I BELIEVE he did act illegally, but I cannot legally conclude that. As I stated before, prosecuting intent is quite difficult as it is not only ambiguous but also rather subjective. I am not a mind reader, so I need proof to convict. Right now, I believe we do not have that proof.

    Propulgate

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  100. Anonymous1:46 PM

    Shargash,

    Very well stated!
    That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

    As antithetical to the mission of the UN as "self-interests" are, they are and probably always will be existent.

    However, “self interest” is not always a bad principle for a nation to act on. It is Darwinian -- The need to survive. That is why it does not always make sense to cede the sovereign right to self defense to an external body, as it is not always in the best interest of members of that body, that some nations survive.

    If we knew that all members were completely altruistic in their actions… Well, if wishes were horses…

    Self defense is not an always very unambiguous concept. Considerations for imminent threat rather than actual assault have to be weighed. And “Imminent” is another not entirely unambiguous concept. The devil, as always, is in the details. Not every threat will be obvious and unambiguous.

    So who is best to decide how and when we defend ourselves, as a nation?

    So long as we follow the laws of our land, and are considerate of the global community, I think we have a better chance of defending our nation from threats and our actions from international scrutiny.

    Notwithstanding our recent actions with regard to Iraq.

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  101. Anonymous5:22 PM

    David Byron,

    It is understandable that your entire post was pretty much dripping with contempt. The only problem is to whom you direct your contempt.

    I can’t say that I can argue with many of your conclusions about US foreign policy or domestic policy for that matter.

    The problem I have is that you try to conflate your disillusionment of US actions with the responses of other posters, including Glenn.

    For instance, you said:

    ”I suspect the plain truth is that as with many americans he just pressumes[sp.] America can do whatever it likes and there's no problem if the US breaks the UN charter --- however blatantly.”

    You are the one making presumptions.

    My observation is that the US does do whatever it likes. That does not mean that I like it or agree with it, but it also doesn’t mean that I necessarily think it constitutes lawlessness.

    You may not care for gray shaded scenarios, but reality is grayer than the stark black and white pallet you seem to paint from.

    And my views are not of ambivalence, due to some hope that my party will some day be in power. I am a registered Independent and I do not neatly conform to any particular party. Although you can safely assume that I am very much against the current amalgamation of lock-stepping, ideologues known as Republicans.

    All I ask is that you try to keep your righteous brush of “contemptionalism” from painting people, like myself, as “exceptionalists”.

    Just because we think America has acted in poor form and probably legally so, does not mean that we agree with it or think it should be broadly applied.

    You just can’t seem to wrap your head around the idea that bad deeds can be performed and still be legal. We don’t approve, but we can’t always legally contest them.

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  102. Anonymous5:29 PM

    ”This suggests the defences he has put forward so far are unimportant to how he comes to his conclusion that the war is legal. With or without an AUMF, with or without any sense at all of a threat Glenn presumes that an American war is legal.” Davidbyron

    What possible illogical construct did you utilize to arrive at this completely baseless conclusion?

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  103. Home sick from work today, and the older two kids will be back from school any minute, so pardon any hastiness here, please.

    A few points: Having now read the United Nations charter, it seems very much to me to be modeled on not only the U.S. Constitution, but to be a fairly serious attempt at duplicating the essential underlying concept of our government -- which is to say, it empowers several different factions equally and forces them to debate, negotiate, and compromise to get anything accomplished, causing each member of the Security Council to effectively act as a check and a balance on every other member.

    Of course, this only works if the U.N. primary imperative -- NO WAR!!! -- is adhered to by all its member states. This requires continual good faith, or at least, a continuing condition of enlightened national self interest, on the part of each member of the Security Council. Obviously, any of them can, unilaterally, simply decide the hell with it, I'm invading Poland. The reason it's a bad idea is not that anyone is seriously afraid of a U.N. peacekeeping force, but that when one does this, one loses credibility in the international community and the illegal aggressor nation takes a huge hit in its diplomatic influence level.

    So, it's a bad idea, all the way around; one that a nation shouldn't even consider unless it is powerful enough to simply ignore every other country on Earth, and every possible alliance and combination of countries that may form to oppose the aggressor nation's nationalism run amok.

    The neocons in our government have, since Reagan, deeply believed that America is the only superpower left in the world and the U.S. is indeed so powerful that we can do whatever we want and flip the bird to any nation stupid enough to protest. This political faction hates the United Nations anyway, and dislikes diplomacy; they generally feel that Truman was pretty much a traitor to our national interests because he did not use his window of opportunity as the only nuclear power in the world to turn the entire globe into Planet America. That's why they have agitated for so long for an invasion of the Middle East; they want to flex their muscles and restore America's glorious imperial era.

    Obviously, they're crazy; you don't fight wars strictly on the battlefield any more, and America's military is (as we have seen) poorly suited to battling international terrorism. Nonetheless, this is what they believe, and in Dubya, they finally found a Chief Executive who, for personal reasons of his own, was perfectly willing to underwrite their crazy Iraqi adventure.

    All of which is to say, as conventional warfare tactics and strategies have forcefully evolved under the impetus of continually developing modern technology and the rise of more sophisticated telecommunications systems (international cell phone calling and international credit transfers are enormous boons to nationless idealogue armies), continuing to show good faith within the established international community has become vital to every nation's national interest.

    Having said all that, I will also say this: I believe I understand what Glenn is actually trying to tell us with his 'the invasion wasn't illegal' riff. I think he is speaking in pragmatic terms (something he tends to do pretty consistently). There is no effective international law enforcement body to arrest Bush, no international judicial system to bring charges against him, no international court to try him. The only judicial system he is pragmatically subject to the authority of is that of the United States. By United States law, his insane act of military aggression was legal, and it doesn't matter, effectively, if it was 'illegal' according to the United Nations charter, because the U.N. has no ability to enforce its charter on the U.S. unless we let them. Which we won't.

    Therefore, continuing to call Bush's invasion of Iraq 'illegal' is a waste of energy and pointless, from Glenn's point of view, because Bush can't be impeached for it, tried for it, convicted for it, or sentenced for it. It is not a crime under U.S. statutes, and the U.N. charter carries only as much weight with the U.S. as we decide to allow it to, at any given moment.

    I still think a violation of a charter on the part of one of that charter's signatories is 'illegal'... but I'll grant you, from a pragmatic point, there's not much meat on that bone.

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  104. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Highlander,

    Nail-on-the-head!

    Excellent post! That is what I've been trying to argue all along, only I could not get anyone to engage (except peripherally).

    Are my posts so poorly constructed that I could not convey my points or are people only interested in addressing Glenn?

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  105. First, there's a U.S. body that can deal with Dubya breaking U.S. law -- Congress. If we had a Democratic majority in Congress, Bush would be undergoing impeachment proceedings right now... I sincerely believe. Impeachment is not a criminal conviction, but it is the process whereby a sitting President can effectively be 'fired' from his office for any of a number of offenses, including breaking the law... and once he is stripped of office (impeached) then the FBI can slap the cuffs on him and he can be brought to trial for whatever the evidence warrants.

    There is no international body that can impeach Bush, nor is there one that can arrest him... pragmatically. It's possible that the U.N. could put together a peacekeeping force to parachute into Washington D.C. in the dead of night, snatch Bush out of the Residence, and airlift him to the Hague, but such an action would trigger World War III and the entire Security Council knows it. So, while I think Bush violated international law, he is effectively immune to any recourse the international community might wish to take. America would have to be conquered before we would ever see members of our ruling class put on trial for war crimes, and that is unlikely to happen.

    Thus, it's a waste of time to call the invasion 'illegal'... at least, from a pragmatic point of view. Bush can't be impeached, arrested, tried, convicted, and/or imprisoned for it, so it's pointless... as far as Glenn is concerned. As far as I'M concerned, the word 'illegal' does apply, even if it has no pragmatic application, and the word bears enormous semantic weight, so I'll keep using it... but Glenn's mileage varies, and that's okay.

    Now, as to Clinton not having Congressional authorization to deploy troops to wherever the hell he feels like it, which makes him a lawbreaker, no, sorry, that dog won't hunt. Much though conservatives are loathe to accept it, Clinton was actually the Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, and he could deploy them, within certain specific parameters, any time he wanted to. Given that the Republican attack dogs did their best to impeach him over a blowjob, but never said anything about him illegally sending the American military into action, I'm going to assume Clinton didn't do anything against the law there, any more than Nixon did when he sent troops into Vietnam without a declaration of war, or Eisenhower did when he sent troops into Korea.

    What conservatives seem to be most pissy about in regard to Clinton's military exercises is that he wasn't fighting Commies or protecting our Middle Eastern oil shares, he was pursuing a progressive humanitarian policy and actively trying to help people who were being brutally repressed. When it comes to providing military aide to non-Americans, conservatives are rabid isolationists; they only want to see American troops sent into action to protect American interests (or to kill Commmies; killing Commies is always cool to the conservative mindset).

    The fact that Clinton's military campaigns vastly increased America's stature in the international community and provided us with enormous diplomatic capital for tough Security Council negotiations means nothing to conservatives; again, they don't like the U.N., they hate the whole idea of any diplomacy that doesn't have the word 'gunboat' in front of it, and while they think that there should be one world government by now, they don't believe it should be the United Nations, they believe it should be the United States, ruling the entire globe with free market enlightenment.

    Having said all this, I don't think the Authorization to Use Military Force acquits El Jefe of illegality after all, because it specifies that the President of the United States can send our military into action if he deems it appropriate, and El Jefe was never legitimately elected President. And before everyone starts screaming at me about re-opening that old can of worms, I understand that it is, at this point, a largely futile debate, but I also understand that to me, it is not a debate -- Bush has never won a legitimate election, he is not and never has been the legitimate President of the United States, and every executive action he has taken in that role has been fraudulent. That, in and of itself, ought to be enough to send him to prison for multiple life sentences.

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  106. Anonymous8:47 PM

    Returning to this late, but wish to contribute (some of us can't be on our computers 24 hours a day, and it's frustrating when you return to find people making their “final comments” - not gonna say no more)

    Truth Machine: I really enjoy your posts EXCEPT that you undermine your good reasoning with invective. In particular, I'm glad you agreed with what I posted, but don't care for your using my words in a personal attack against Glenn. He is NOT "demonstrably" lying. He DOES, from my perspective too, have a blind spot where it comes to international treaties and laws. That is far different from deliberate deceit.

    Glenn: IMHO, you're doing the same thing, without the curse words, but you're lumping everyone who cares about international law together, imputing bad-faith motives to people who care about the United Nations and think we should abide by its charter. As you said, But I think it's important that it be revealed that, at the end of the day, in virtually all cases, the only real point of people who parade around under this oh-so-reasonable banner of "international law" is to show that the U.S. is the world's greatest criminal and the rest of the world - especially murderous dictators - are the only legitimate governments. This is certainly not true of me!!!!!! Nor is it true of a retired-diplomat friend of mine, who is crushed by the disregard for signed treaties, not to mention the utter lack of any kind of diplomatic skills, even of normal courtesy, from this administration. She is watching everything she and her colleagues worked for decades to achieve being kicked over like a castle in the sand.

    In the end, the UN Charter means nothing if major powers ignore it – but as you've pointed out, that applies to the U.S. Constitution as well. Both only work if leaders make a good-faith effort to abide by it. Like our Constitution, the UN charter was a heartbreakingly noble step forward, it gave hope to a world devastated by war after war, and hoping to prevent another one. I hate to see us running backwards. Some of this may depend on the era one was born in – I grew up in the 50's, when the Soviet Union was the most blatantly imperialistic power, which tried to justify its aggressive behavior – as aggressive nations generally do - by claiming it was containing a security threat. We used the United Nations back then any way we could, and demanded that all signatories adhere to it, chapter and verse.

    Pointing out that we are not abiding by the United Nations charter now ourselves, and that it's hypocritical of us, no more reveals in irrational hatred of the United States than pointing out GW's lawbreaking shows an irrational hatred of George Bush. I have no personal feeling toward Bush one way or other. He is an outlaw, and is trampling all over our constitutional rights. If he would just go back to Crawford and take all his criminal cronies with him, I'd be happy enough. I'd be pleased to never hear his voice nor see his face on TV again. I'm not one of those calling for him to get a taste of his own medicine in Gitmo.

    As for your steady denial that we ARE are breaking the UN Charter, I just don't understand it. You've refused repeatedly and uncharacteristically to address the text, which does not say “self-defense.” It says “armed attack.” There was no “armed attack.” If our government thinks those words – and we were largely responsible for the language in the UN Charter – are dated, and that the words “self-defense” should be substituted, then the UN ambassador should make that argument, for amending the charter (just like FISA).

    This was not a Pearl Harbor situation. We were not only not under armed attack, but had no evidence of a plan of attack against us. Of course, if in fact we HAD BEEN acting in the face of an immediate, dire threat – and it was immediately necessary to launch a pre-emptive strike to avoid the destruction of one of our cities, for example, we would not think twice. In such a case, whether or not we were technically acting illegally under the UN charter would not matter until later, and the world would doubtless forgive us if the evidence for a planned – immediate – actual – real – not imaginary attack was shown to be valid.

    That's the point of the charter's “armed attack” exclusion – you act without Security Council approval only if you DON'T HAVE TIME to go through the process of presenting your case to the SC. In our case, we DID have time, we DID present our case, and the SC – given that no WMD had yet been found – said we should continue with the inspections. They refused to ratify an invasion, especially in light of their actual COMPLIANCE with We ignored them.

    In light of that history, to claim that what we did was legal under the UN Charter just doesn't make sense. And Kofi Annan said it was illegal under the charter, along with many international law scholars, who I do not believe were motivated by a hatred of the United States, but a respect for the law.

    AND by the way, when we talk about the lack of WMDs and deliberate misleading of the public: this is not just hindsight, many of us who paid attention were convinced before the invasion that there was no good evidence of WMDs. Scott Ritter, the former U.S. Arms inspector in Iraq, explained persuasively and often, that the WMD claim was false and that Iraq no longer had these weapons; the response, as usual, was not to argue the facts but instead to assassinate his character.) The United States had no evidence of any alliance between Saddam and Al Queda. He was hostile to the theocrats. To postulate that he would give powerful weapons to his enemy with which to attack us was theoretical indeed. And we had no evidence whatsoever that Saddam had plans to attack this country directly or indirectly, that is to say, we had no evidence that he was suicidal and wanted to see his entire family and country annhilated.

    So it was bogus, Glenn. Maybe you didn't realize that then, but millions of people did – I did. My friends did. We heard Scott Ritter and we watched Bush clearly preparing for war while occasionally throwing in the odd phrase about war being a last resort – and it seemed so incongruous, some of his words, as we knew he wanted war. Invaders nearly always claim they are acting in self-defense.

    If we really HAD been acting in self defense against a real, immediate, threat to our country – okay, then you'd have an argument that our security interests were too important to worry about the UN Charter, but I still don't see how you could claim what we did was legal. The words are very clear and that's why I'm just baffl

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  107. Anonymous8:58 PM

    [Brambling - computer suddenly won't let me be anything but Anonymous]

    Returning to this late, but wish to contribute (some of us can't be on our computers 24 hours a day, and it's frustrating when you return to find people making their “final comments” - promising they're not gonna say no more.)

    Truth Machine: I really enjoy your posts EXCEPT that you undermine your good reasoning with invective. In particular, I'm glad you agreed with what I posted, but don't care for your using my words in a personal attack against Glenn. He is NOT "demonstrably" lying. He DOES, from my perspective too, have a blind spot where it comes to international treaties and laws. That is far different from deliberate deceit.

    Glenn: IMHO, you're doing the same thing, without the curse words, but you're lumping everyone who cares about international law together, imputing bad-faith motives to people who care about the United Nations and think we should abide by its charter. As you said, But I think it's important that it be revealed that, at the end of the day, in virtually all cases, the only real point of people who parade around under this oh-so-reasonable banner of "international law" is to show that the U.S. is the world's greatest criminal and the rest of the world - especially murderous dictators - are the only legitimate governments. This is certainly not true of me!!!!!! Nor is it true of a retired-diplomat friend of mine, who is crushed by the disregard for signed treaties, not to mention the utter lack of any kind of diplomatic skills, even of normal courtesy, from this administration. She is watching everything she and her colleagues worked for decades to achieve being kicked over like a castle in the sand.

    In the end, the UN Charter means nothing if major powers ignore it – but as you've pointed out, that applies to the U.S. Constitution as well. Both only work if leaders make a good-faith effort to abide by it. Like our Constitution, the UN charter was a heartbreakingly noble step forward, it gave hope to a world devastated by war after war, and hoping to prevent another one. I hate to see us running backwards. Some of this may depend on the era one was born in – I grew up in the 50's, when the Soviet Union was the most blatantly imperialistic power, which tried to justify its aggressive behavior – as aggressive nations generally do - by claiming it was containing a security threat. We used the United Nations back then any way we could, and demanded that all signatories adhere to it, chapter and verse.

    Pointing out that we are not abiding by the United Nations charter now ourselves, and that it's hypocritical of us, no more reveals in irrational hatred of the United States than pointing out GW's lawbreaking shows an irrational hatred of George Bush. I love my country, and as for Bush, my disapproval isn't personal. He is an outlaw, and is trampling all over our constitutional rights. If he would just go back to Crawford and take all his criminal cronies with him, I'd be happy enough. I'm not one of those calling for him to get a taste of his own medicine in Gitmo.

    As for your steady denial that we ARE are breaking the UN Charter, I just don't understand it. You've refused repeatedly and uncharacteristically to address the text, which does not say “self-defense.” It says “armed attack.” There was no “armed attack.” If our government thinks those words – and we were largely responsible for the language in the UN Charter – are dated, and that the words “self-defense” should be substituted, then the UN ambassador should make that argument, for amending the charter (just like FISA).

    This was not a Pearl Harbor situation. We were not only not under armed attack, but had no evidence of a plan of attack against us. Of course, if in fact we HAD BEEN acting in the face of an immediate, dire threat – and it was immediately necessary to launch a pre-emptive strike to avoid the destruction of one of our cities, for example, we would not think twice. In such a case, whether or not we were technically acting illegally under the UN charter would not matter until later, and the world would doubtless forgive us if the evidence for a planned – immediate – actual – real – not imaginary attack was shown to be valid.

    That's the point of the charter's “armed attack” exclusion – you act without Security Council approval only if you DON'T HAVE TIME to go through the process of presenting your case to the SC. In our case, we DID have time, we DID present our case, and the SC – given that no WMD had yet been found – said we should continue with the inspections. They refused to ratify an invasion. After asking their permission, and being told no, we ignored them.

    In light of that history, to claim that what we did was legal under the UN Charter just doesn't make sense. And Kofi Annan said it was illegal under the charter, along with many international law scholars, who I do not believe were motivated by a hatred of the United States, but a respect for the law.

    AND by the way, when we talk about the lack of WMDs and deliberate misleading of the public: this is NOT just hindsight, many of us who paid attention were convinced BEFORE the invasion that there was no good evidence of WMDs. Scott Ritter, the former U.S. Arms inspector in Iraq, explained persuasively that the WMD claim was false and that Iraq no longer had these weapons; the response, as usual, was not to argue the facts but instead to assassinate his character. The United States had no evidence of any alliance between Saddam and Al Queda. He was hostile to the theocrats. To postulate that he would give powerful weapons to his enemy with which to attack us, was theoretical indeed. And we had no evidence whatsoever that Saddam had plans to attack this country directly or indirectly, that is to say, we had no evidence that he was suicidal and wanted to see his entire family and country annhilated.

    It was bogus, Glenn. Millions of people realized that at the time – I did. My friends did. We watched Bush clearly preparing for war while occasionally throwing in the odd phrase about war being a last resort – and the word "peace" seemed so incongruous coming from his mouth, in light of his actions, his frustration with the UN for wanting to hold off - he and his cohort obviously were chomping at the bit for war.

    So I just don't see how you could claim what we did was legal. The words in the Charter are very clear and that's why I'm just baffled that you keep maintaining that even if the invasion was unjust, it wasn't illegal.

    Just doesn't compute. Doesn't stand up to your usually fine reasoning and ability to work with the words of the law. That's why people were getting hostile and whatnot – really – this doesn't make sense, it seems inconsistent with your normal thinking about law and the need to abide by it, and to change it if it isn't working, not just break it because you feel like it. If you just don't believe in international law at all – well, then you don't. But nonetheless, I don't see how one can rationally argue that our invasion was legal under the charter, unless one pretends the charter says something different than it does as, I believe, you've been doing. We threw it to the Security Council, we were unwilling to honor their decision when it went against us, what is legal about that?

    Most of the world and most US citizens did not want us to go to war without UN sanction. According to Wikipedia, “the majority of the world populace did not support the war and the US failed to secure UN permission to invade Iraq. In most countries less than 10% of the populace supported an invasion of Iraq without UN sanction. Even in the US only approximately 33% of the population said they were in favor of a unilateral invasion. The United States formed a "Coalition of the Willing" and proceeded with the invasion despite massive public protest."

    In my view, our invasion had many causes – Bush's desire to improve his political standing by being a wartime president, as he told his biographer before his “election” he was hoping to do; the business about the attempted assassination of his Dad; not to mention the war profiteering (isn't that still illegal, by the way?).

    But most of all the neocons' desire to get a stronger foothold for American interests in the Middle East. Again Wikipedia, on an article about The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) and its flagship document “Rebuilding America's Defenses, says they advocate a global police force which “would have the power to keep law and order around the world in accordance with United States interests. The PNAC also advocates that the United States government should capitalize on its military and economic superiority to gain unchallengeable superiority through all means necessary, including military force.”

    That's more like their real goal, no? And this was not unknown at the time, either. PNAC 's documents were publicized, and their desire to strike when the iron was hot and make America the empire it could be was no secret either. So the talk about “self-defense” seemed Orwellian then and now. They were systematically and visibly building up mushroom-cloud-fear-fog. It boggles my mind that people could listen to him talk out both sides of his mouth at once, war war war war peace war war, and still have some notion that anything he said about it was credible.

    Glenn, you may say you've answered us many times, but you've yet to respond to the actual language of the UN Charter in your claim that our attack was, even if repugnant, nonetheless legal.

    So to sum up an overly long post: under the UN Charter, you don't get to just decide to attack a country unless you are under armed attack. That could be stretched reasonably to include being targeted by a specific and immediate plan of attack you are trying to avert. It cannot be stretched reasonably to include the possible possession of weapons which experts were saying did not exist, which inspectors were unable to find, and which in any case if they did exist would not be launched against us unless Iraq were run by a suicidal maniac, which he was not. Homicidal, perhaps; suicidal? No evidence for that.

    The Iraq war was illegal under the most basic rules of the United Nations, which was established to prevent just such wars. Everything else it does, all the humanitarian work, is gravy.

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  108. You make some good points, Brambling, as does David. I have a lot to say in response - and will re-consider a couple of the points you raised - and want to find the time to gather some material and write that all. I probably won't have that time for a few days, but I will try to do something over the weekend. Either way, I'll write something about this topic in the near future.

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  109. One added point - the one thing I really dislike is when people get lazy and take short cuts by attributing beliefs to the person they are debating that the person really does not have.

    David falsely says that I deny that Clinton acted illegally and then builds his whole argument based on that premise. This is what David said:

    There is some reason why Glenn rejects the idea that Clinton broke the law.

    Compare that to what I actually said:

    I haven't given any thought to whether Clinton's military action in Yugoslavia was criminal. I don't know if it is. I'm open to that possibility. I do know that the invasion of Iraq was not criminal because it was authorized by the American people through their Congress.

    Debating an issue is easy - and worthless - when you just invent things and pretend that other people said them and then attack those ideas.

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  110. Even though I have several things that I need to be working and that I'm behind on and I therefore shouldn't be responding to this now, I need to add one more point in response to Brambling's post. I've never been good at leaving debates behind - even when I should - and I'm probably never going to get at any better at it.

    Brambling said:

    So I just don't see how you could claim what we did was legal. The words in the Charter are very clear and that's why I'm just baffled that you keep maintaining that even if the invasion was unjust, it wasn't illegal.

    This whole discussion began when David appeared here and accused me of supporting (in a C&L post I wrote) an "illegal" invasion of Iraq -- "illegal" in the sense that the invasion violated U.S. law.

    In response, I explained that I did not argue in support of the invasion. I also said that I did not agree that the invasion was "illegal" under U.S. law.

    An inquiry into the question of whether the invasion was "illegal" under U.S. law would entail two separate questions, at least:

    (1) Did the invasion violate the UN charter?

    (2) If so, is there some valid legal authorization which renders legal (under U.S. law) the invasion even though it violates the UN charter?

    Contrary to Brambling's claims, I have not argued that the answer to (1) is "no." I have argued that I thought it was a difficult and murky question and that a reasonable argument can be constructed that it did not. But I'm open on that point and that is what I want to think about more and re-consider in light of the points made on this issue by David, Brambling and others.

    But even if the answer to (1) is "yes," that does not end the inquiry as to whether the invasion is illegal. If the answer to (2) is also "yes," then it means the invasion is legal even if it violated the U.N. charter.

    What I have argued emphatically is that the invasion was "legal" under U.S. law because the American people authorized the invasion through their Congress, which enacted a law, signed by the President, specifically authorizing the use of force against Iraq (I don't find David's arguments even reasonable, let alone persuasive, about how that resolution didn't authorize our invasion and occupation).

    That's how "U.S. law" is made - the American people make it through the Congress and it's signed into law. Since we have a law that was enacted by those means which clearly authorizes the invasion, I find the claim that the invasion was "illegal" under U.S. law to be entirely unpersuasive.

    The issue David originally raised was not whether the invasion violated the UN charter. It was whether the invasion violated U.S. law and was therefore "illegal." As I explained above, those two questions are not the same.

    It's possible for an act to violate the UN charter but still not be "illegal" under U.S. law (if, for instance, the mandate of the UN charter in question was contrary to a provision of the U.S. Constitution, or if (as here) it was abrogated or reversed by a subsequent, valid act of Congress).

    The only way to argue that the invasion is "illegal" is to argue that the UN Charter is of superior legal validity than the subsequently enacted Iraqi AUMF -- that is, that international treaties occupy some middle ground between the Constitution at the highest point and U.S. statutes at the lowest, such that no U.S. statute can override a previously enacted treaty. I've never heard any constitutional scholar or anyone else make such a claim, and I would find such a claim absurd. All laws can be reversed or repealed by a subsequent act of Congress. There is no basis for arguing that treaties are forever enshrined and can never be reversed by a subsequent act of Congress.

    Brambling's claims about how U.S. honor is harmed or how we look bad or it's bad foreign policy to abrogate treaties may all be true -- but those are separate questions entirely from whether it is legal for the U.S. to do this. As I've pointed out many times, the fact that something is bad, wrong, dumb, or immoral doesn't make it "illegal." Something is "illegal" only if it violates a valid law without legal justification.

    I have other things to say on many other points raised by Brambling and David and others, which I will say when I have more time, but I wanted to say this now to clarify exactly what the argument is.

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  111. Anonymous11:43 AM

    Brambling, I must say you made some very compelling points. Excellent post! I have done a lot more research on the topic and I am starting to see more proof of illegality on the part of the President.

    Brambling said:
    ”We threw it to the Security Council, we were unwilling to honor their decision when it went against us, what is legal about that?”

    I may be wrong, but I believe we took action without seeking a proposed Security Council resolution, because it didn’t look likely (in fact undoubtedly) that we would get the approval. So no vote was conducted.

    So far most of my argument was from the stance that it was a case that was improbable to convict because a defense could be made to justify his actions. But the more I look into it, the more difficult that defense becomes (internationally, at least).

    Although few of you seem to want to give credibility to any scenarios which address cases for “self-defense”, I think they are still very viable. In this particular case, however, it looks more difficult to conjure the “self-defense” defense, but that does not make it impossible. Nor does it eviscerate a potential case for “self-defense” via preemptive actions, without an initial “armed attack” as a perpetuating factor.

    With all of the potential shortfalls of the UN, it remains an organization that can be vitally important in maintaining global stability. And since, as David and Brambling have both pointed out, the US entered into the UN (virtually establishing it), and signed treaties should be held with at least as much deference as our own laws, and in fact are many times ratified, establishing an indistinguishable equivalence to a US law.

    I still very much believe that the President is not guilty of breaking a US law (with regard to the military action) as the AUMF was followed and supersedes any adopted treaties as it constitutes new and overriding law.

    David Byron said:

    ”No US president has ever been impeached, is that correct? So by talking about impeachment you're not talking practically any more. “

    Actually, that is not correct. Andrew Johnson was impeached (albeit, under very contemptuous and partisan biases). However, he was later acquitted by a margin of one vote.

    William J. Clinton was also impeached, via similar partisan biases. He was not convicted or forcibly removed from office.

    Nixon resigned before he would have undoubtedly been impeached and removed from office.

    David Byron said:

    ”Then it's a waste of time to say he broke the law over FISA too. What is the difference?”

    Although there may be a compelling reason and rationale to believe that Bush is guilty of breaking international laws, that does not compare, IMO, to US laws such as FISA. As I’ve pointed out before, the AUMF would very easily protect the President from prosecution of conducting an illegal war (in the eyes of US law). However, he would not enjoy any protection from prosecution (except, of course, a lazy and compliant, bootlicking Congress) under US laws, as he has clearly violated the existing congressional law.

    All that being said, David, Brambling and Highlander have convinced me that there is a case for breach of international law by the President. That doesn’t make it any more likely that a conviction will be made, but that also does not lessen the importance or stature of international law (just because a conviction is not made does not negate the violation). I believe that well intentioned and ratified International laws should be respected, revered and adhered. Our leaders should not just blithely dismiss them at their convenience. However, I think that when due consideration is afforded; there are some very credible reasons to break from them.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous12:10 PM

    David Byron Said:

    ”Give me an example of a treaty being modified by an act of congress if you can think of one. I'm certainly prepared to be wrong about it but it seems to me that the constitution says otherwise - that there's no provision for modifiying either laws or treaties except by the same process they were created and by the same people who have authority to create them. You disagree and claim the constitution implicitly gives authority. Are you just guessing? I'm just guessing but I am doing so based on the text of the constituion.”

    Are you kidding me? Laws are overturned all the time. Slavery was once legal; not so much anymore, wouldn’t you agree? The SCOTUS exists to check the Constitutionality of laws. They overturn, amend or validate many laws, that’s their job. You asked for one example, I think slavery will suffice, if not, do some research, there are thousands.
    Congress has similar authority. They can modify (see FISA as just one example), amend and create laws. The AUMF is a Law and it did modify and/or override existing laws. As you may be aware, only congress can declare war and fund the military, they ceded the responsibility (via AUMF) to the President. Although the President has the Constitutional authority to utilize the military, he has to seek approval from the congress within (I believe) 48hrs. of doing so.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous12:13 PM

    David said:

    ” When I asked if any president had been impeached I meant found guilty by the Senate -- not put forward for a trial by the House.”

    They are two distinctly separate things. The House has authority of Impeachment, therefore the examples cited were Impeachments.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous12:26 PM

    David stated:

    ”Glenn I not [sic.] believe you have made a legal argument that the Iraq war was consistent with the UN charter.”

    Strawman. Glenn did not make an argument about the international legality of the war, he only argued legality in the context of US law.



    Glenn stated:

    ”The only way to argue that the invasion is "illegal" is to argue that the UN Charter is of superior legal validity than the subsequently enacted Iraqi AUMF”

    David replied:

    ”That's a dishonest statement since I just made a full argument (which you read and were replying to) that did not include such a ridiculous statement. Strawman.”

    David, your whole argument is that the UN charter and US laws are inextricably linked with no chance of modification. This argument is fallacious, therefore, your statement is invalid.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous1:09 PM

    One of David's big problems here is how ignorant he is of everything outside of his socialist cliches. First he says that no President has been impeached when every 10th Grader learns that Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton both were impeached.

    Now he says no treaties have ever been abrogated by Congress. Is he insane? Countless treaties have been abrogted by an act of Congress throughout history.

    Glenn is more right than he even
    knows he is. Congress has every right to enact a law contrary to a treaty, and it makes the treaty invalid:

    http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=nd01clemens

    The very first treaties abrogated by the United States--its 1778 alliance and commercial treaty with France--were both ended by an act of Congress in 1798, which President John Adams then signed.

    In more than 50 cases of treaty termination since 1798, both the legislative and executive branches have usually played a role. In most cases, the president has acted pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress or with the consent of the Senate. For example, President James K. Polk asked Congress in the 1840s to make provision in law for ending the 1827 treaty with Great Britain regarding the Oregon Territory. Congress responded with a joint resolution authorizing U.S. withdrawal from the treaty.

    Similarly, President U.S. Grant in 1876 asked Congress to determine whether to continue an extradition treaty with Britain. President William Howard Taft in 1911 asked the Senate, "as a part of the treaty-making power of this Government," to approve his termination of the 1832 treaty of commerce and navigation with Russia.


    And a federal appeals court has ruled that the President alone can abrogate a treaty without an act of Congress:

    A district court ruled . . . that the president "alone cannot effect the repeal of a law of the land . . . formed by joint action of the executive and legislative branches, whether that law be a statute or a treaty." To terminate a treaty, the court said, the president's action must be approved by two-thirds of the Senate or a majority of both houses of Congress. Therefore the district court enjoined the secretary of state from implementing the president's termination notice unless so approved.

    The White House then took the case to a court of appeals, which overruled the district court. Stressing the primacy of the executive branch in foreign affairs, the appellate court argued that the president needed the flexibility to end treaties without the approval of one or both houses. Since the Constitution did not specifically require a role for Congress or the Senate in treaty termination, exclusive responsibility belonged to the president.


    David Byron in this whole discussion just makes things up - what other people say, historical facts, anything. He's an ideologue, not a thinker and isn't open to discussion.

    Congress passed a bill authorizing the invasion. The President signed it into law. Only a moron can say that the invasion was "illegal."

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous2:32 PM

    see that on the contrary the wording is extremely deferential to the UN charter and most of it goes on about how terrible it is for anyone to breach it.

    LOL!!!! The AUMF was drafted by the White House and all of its UN-hating Republican allies voted in the Senate for it. Every last one of them.

    You're trying to say that Bush and the Republicans in Congress who HATE the UN passed a law expressing "extreme deference" to the UN. And they only wanted to have Bush authority to invade Iraq if the UN gave him permission.

    LOL!!!! Great argument.

    Here's a hint: once people start saying "only a fool thinks . . ." - it means they have no argument.

    And notice how David didn't address the Federal appellate case law holding that the President alone has the power to abrogate a treaty.

    That's because under all theories of U.S. law, the invasion of Iraq was legal. The President can abrogate a treaty under federal case law. And either way, Congress approved it.

    David can't stand the fact that the fascist imperialist U.S. abided by the law when invading another country. So he wants the law to fit his own morality, even while he lectures others on how wrong that is.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous4:27 PM

    David says:

    ”The intent behind a law is sometimes relevent but it is usually judged by the public statements made while passing it (and in this case the various "Whereas..." statements in the AUMF).”

    I’m not entirely sure I understand what it is you are trying to say here (if anything), but let me just state that when “various “Whereas…” statements are cited in a resolution, it means they are stipulating the facts. In other words, the conclusion has already been drawn and accepted as fact.

    That said, there are far too many items for me to devote anymore time to, with regard to debating David Byron.

    Let me stipulate my own resolution.

    Whereas David has dug in his heels and refuses to look at things objectively;

    Whereas David has displayed a penchant for misquoting, misstating and his general, utter disingenuousness for attributing proper statements to their originators;

    Whereas David has displayed a failure to support statements with substantiated fact…

    Whereas David has erroneously conflated issues;

    Whereas David has failed to observe, acknowledge or has otherwise just ignored basic and substantial rationales laid out by other posters;

    Whereas David has postulated many fallacies and propped up strawmen; and

    Whereas David has barely (if ever) even bothered to extend the decency to address my arguments directly: Now, therefore, be it

    Resolved that I shall cease and desist any further attempts to engage David in discussions involving this issue or related issues, and leave to Glenn and other able and willing posters to have it!

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous12:36 PM

    So many words, so little said.

    Propulgate's arguments are absurd -- the U.S. Congress clearly did not, and did not intend to, abrogate the UN Charter.

    Glenn writes I believe that if the U.S. (or any country) invades another country because: (a) it has reasonable grounds for believing the invaded country has dangerous weapons and (b) there is a substantial liklihood that it will give those weapons to another party to attack the U.S., then the invasion is an act of self-defense, not aggression, and is therefore NOT in violation of the U.N. charter.

    Then Glenn believes that Hitler's Germany would not have been in violation of the U.N. charter, since the people of Germany had reason to believe such things -- their leaders told them so! But the UN did not agree that the U.S. had reasonable grounds for belief that they were facing an imminent threat from Iraq, and that's what matters. The invasion of Iraq was an act of aggression, and I'm sure that, if Glenn were prosecuting the case against the U.S., he would see the arguments that he strangely fails to see here.

    He also writes:

    I saw your comment in the Iraq thread in which you said you agreed with the Comment I left at QandO about Howard Dean, and that really left me a little confused.

    Howard Dean repeatedly said that he believed the U.S. had a legal right to invade Iraq unilaterally, with or without UN approval, if the country believed that doing so was necessary to defend its interests. That's the same argument I'm making here - which makes me a xenophoblic, chauvanistic, fascist, white racist oppressive asshole - and yet, based on your approval of my QandO comment, you don't seem to have a problem with Dean's identical views.


    Glenn, you seem to have lost your rational faculties. That I agreed with your description of Howard Dean as "purely pragmatic and even hawk-ish", and that he was right about "the risks of invasion, the difficulty of maintaining a post-invasion peace, the possibility that there were no WMDs, the value in relying on other methods first to determine if the threat was really imminent, and the intrinsic risk of any war that things will sprial out of control" doesn't mean that I agree with Howard Dean's argument for legality of the war. DUH.

    And I didn't say you were "xenophoblic", "fascist", or "white racist oppressive". I said you were an American chauvinist (as is Howard Dean and almost every other elected official in the U.S.) and a hypocritical asshole, and I stand by those charges.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous7:20 PM

    "Truth" Machine said:

    “Propulgate's arguments are absurd -- the U.S. Congress clearly did not, and did not intend to, abrogate the UN Charter.”

    Straw man. I never said their intent was to abrogate the UN Charter. You may want to rethink your moniker.

    Here are a few of the exact quotes I said:

    “I still very much believe that the President is not guilty of breaking a US law (with regard to the military action) as the AUMF was followed and supersedes any adopted treaties as it constitutes new and overriding law… “

    “…the congress gave careful consideration to the UN when drafting the AUMF, and although the AUMF cites the many UN articles, it stipulated that the criteria had been met, and ceded the right to the President to take military action.”


    Furthermore, I point out that the AUMF(as ratified by the congress), and therefore, congress showed deference to the UN charter; Yet they stipulated in the AUMF that the UN requirements had been met, thus with full respect to the UN, yielded the right for the President to utilize force.

    Now, you may claim that the congressional intent was in poor form, but the net result of the AUMF was implicit compliance with UN; and the AUMF ceded responsibility for the President to “make the call” as he deemed appropriate. Therefore, any argument that the President acted illegally with regard to US will fail on its face.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous9:56 PM

    “Propulgate's arguments are absurd -- the U.S. Congress clearly did not, and did not intend to, abrogate the UN Charter.”

    Straw man. I never said their intent was to abrogate the UN Charter. You may want to rethink your moniker.


    How dim can you get? The issue is whether the UN Charter was abrogated, freeing the U.S. from its requirements. If you didn't say that Congress intended to abrogate the UN Charter, then you are blowing hot air -- arguing against a strawman. All you would have had to do to grasp the context is to search for "abrogate":

    Glenn Greenwald: It's possible for an act to violate the UN charter but still not be "illegal" under U.S. law (if, for instance, the mandate of the UN charter in question was contrary to a provision of the U.S. Constitution, or if (as here) it was abrogated or reversed by a subsequent, valid act of Congress).

    Since the UN Charter isn't contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, contra Glenn, it was neither abrogated nor reversed by Congress, the U.S. action was illegal. DUH.

    Your argument that "Yet they stipulated in the AUMF that the UN requirements had been met, thus with full respect to the UN, yielded the right for the President to utilize force" and "the net result of the AUMF was implicit compliance with UN" is meally-mouthed crap; it is hardly "compliance with the UN" to appropriate authority vested in the UN to oneself. I can't believe that you or Glenn are really SO stupid as to buy this argument. You certainly wouldn't if you were acting as prosecutors against the U.S. or George Bush; as I said, you would manage to find the arguments that strangely elude you here. There's an explanation for that -- intellectual dishonesty.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous12:40 AM

    Truth Machine says:

    “All you would have had to do to grasp the context is to search for "abrogate":”

    Abrogate:
    1 : to abolish by authoritative action
    2 : to treat as nonexistent

    What I stated, was that congress expressed deference to the UN charter, therefore they did not treat it as nonexistent.

    Truth Machine says:

    “Since the UN Charter isn't contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, contra Glenn, it was neither abrogated nor reversed by Congress, the U.S. action was illegal. DUH.”

    Illegal to who? If you are referring to international law, you may have a valid argument. However, if you are saying US action was illegal under US law, you are wrong.

    When congress issued the AUMF, they were passing US law. Whether the intent was to abrogate the UN Charter or not, is not the issue. So even if your argument is that the US had to abrogate the UN charter in order to make the President’s actions legal, it is irrelevant, the President’s actions were legal under US laws.

    The AUMF does not “abolish by authoritative actions” the UN Charter, in fact, it stipulates that the criteria for action has been met with regard to UN resolutions. It does, however, make legal the President’s ability to take action. So even if it is illegal “internationally” it is not illegal under US laws.

    Besides the many infantile insults you tend to throw about in your posts, you do sometimes have a tendency to make some good points.

    That being said, in all of your assertions of my mealy mouthed, dim, stupidity, you have yet to establish any logic that the President violated US law.

    Do you really believe that the US congress can never make law to supersede “International Law” or to supersede current or existing US laws?

    Are you stating that the President can be tried for war crimes for violations of constitutional law for his actions against Iraq?

    Do you suggest that the AUMF does not give the President authority to utilize the military?

    If you answered yes to any of these questions, I look forward to hearing your explanation?
    But please try to refrain from the name calling. Unfortunately not everyone can be as intellectually gifted as you.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous9:27 AM

    What I stated, was that congress expressed deference to the UN charter, therefore they did not treat it as nonexistent.

    Ok, I get it, you have no reading comprehension. As I wrote "If you didn't say that Congress intended to abrogate the UN Charter, then you are blowing hot air -- arguing against a strawman." It does no good to repeat the fact that you weren't claiming that Congress abrogated the UN Charter, as that simply confirms that you're arguing against a strawman. If Congress didn't abrogate the UN Charter, then it still governs U.S. behavior.

    Illegal to who? If you are referring to international law, you may have a valid argument. However, if you are saying US action was illegal under US law, you are wrong.

    The UN Charter is "the supreme Law of the Land" per Article VI of the U.S. Constitution.


    Besides the many infantile insults you tend to throw about in your posts, you do sometimes have a tendency to make some good points.


    What is infantile is referring to certain words and phrases intended to express justified contempt as "infantile".

    Do you really believe that the US congress can never make law to supersede ?International Law? or to supersede current or existing US laws?

    I "really" believe that a law that says That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons only applies to the degree that it is consistent with the UN Charter that limits such actions to self defense; any action that violates those limits violates the Charter. The Charter is meaningless if any nation can simply declare by internal law that it is free of those restrictions, and any rational court would agree.


    Are you stating that the President can be tried for war crimes for violations of constitutional law for his actions against Iraq?


    Yes; the President presented to Congress, to the American people, and to the world false evidence that we faced a serious threat from Iraq; the purpose of that presentation was specifically to bring us under cover of the "self defense" clause of the UN Charter.

    Do you suggest that the AUMF does not give the President authority to utilize the military?

    He has such authority only to the degree that it does not conflict with overriding legal obligations -- otherwise, you succumb to his argument that the AUMF overrides FISA, as long as the eavesdropping can be excused as a military action. And treaties that we have signed cannot be overruled willy-nilly by Congress while maintaining a pretense that we are still signatories to the treaty, if treaties are to have any meaning. To claim otherwise is to undermine the most basic moral underpinnings of a civil society. As some would say, all one has is his word.

    But please try to refrain from the name calling.

    Why should I, jackass? Just because you have an irrational emotional reaction to certain noise words?

    Unfortunately not everyone can be as intellectually gifted as you.

    No, but everyone can be as intellectually honest.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous9:40 AM

    In response to a much earlier comment by propulgate:

    I re-read the thread and it seems like the whole argument was a waste of time

    Ain't that the truth. As I said, many words but little said (i.e., the same said over and over and over ...).

    While it seems a sin to violate treaties/agreements/conventions that we have signed in good faith with good reason, for practical purposes the application and enforcement of those agreements with regard to US citizens in US courts, are pretty well delineated.

    Right, for practical (more accurately, political) purposes, the courts don't follow the plain words of the Constitution that state that treaties are "the supreme law of the land" -- but the quite different point that David Byron, Bramble, and I have addressed is whether the law was in fact broken. Violating treaties is a sin, and it's illegal. But a great deal that is illegal is never enforced, and a great deal of law is never applied, or is misapplied -- consider Bush v. Gore. Did the SCOTUS violate the law with that decision? Well, it's a philosophical and semantic question. It certainly broke the law in a quite literal sense.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous2:45 PM

    Asshole Machine,

    I apologize for using this type of language, but it seems to be what you best identify with.

    Truthiness Machine says:

    “Ok, I get it, you have no reading comprehension.”

    And then continues to explain to me that:

    “I "really" believe that a law that says That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons only applies to the degree that it is consistent with the UN Charter that limits such actions to self defense;”

    I would reply that when quoting the AUMF to me as an explanation as to how intellectually dishonest my arguments are, I might suggest he tune up his reading comprehension enough to realize that he is quoting the AUMF for US action in retaliation for the September 11 terrorist attacks, and not the AUMF for action against Iraq. Two different documents that can be identified by reading the heading, instead of hastily cutting and pasting from the first google response of “AUMF” to pop up.

    Me:

    “Are you stating that the President can be tried for war crimes for violations of constitutional law for his actions against Iraq?”

    Truth Machine says:

    “Yes; the President presented to Congress, to the American people, and to the world false evidence that we faced a serious threat from Iraq; the purpose of that presentation was specifically to bring us under cover of the "self defense" clause of the UN Charter.”

    Although I agree that the President did present bad information and I believe, deliberately so, the congress, in its infinite wisdom, chose to grant the authority to the President to use force. The AUMF also gives him authority to direct the military with a retroactive approval from congress, of 48hrs. And since the congress continued to support, and fund, the military mission in Iraq, the President can not be convicted of breaking the law.

    Me:

    “Do you suggest that the AUMF does not give the President authority to utilize the military?”

    Truth Machine:

    “He has such authority only to the degree that it does not conflict with overriding legal obligations -- otherwise, you succumb to his argument that the AUMF overrides FISA, as long as the eavesdropping can be excused as a military action. And treaties that we have signed cannot be overruled willy-nilly by Congress while maintaining a pretense that we are still signatories to the treaty, if treaties are to have any meaning. To claim otherwise is to undermine the most basic moral underpinnings of a civil society. As some would say, all one has is his word.”

    First, we are debating the President’s action with regard to the AUMF, not FISA. They are separate issues, not easily conflated as you try to do. Second, you claim that treaties cannot be overruled willy-nilly by Congress while maintaining a pretense…, etc. My response is, says who? What law prohibits congress from enacting new laws which contradict or override existing laws? You may claim it is intellectually dishonest, and you would probably be right, but that does not make their action illegal. Third, you state (quite eloquently)“To claim otherwise is to undermine the most basic moral underpinnings of a civil society. As some would say, all one has is his word.” I agree that it does have the probability of doing exactly as you state, but that does not make the actions illegal under US Laws.

    Me:

    “Unfortunately not everyone can be as intellectually gifted as you.”

    Truth Machine:

    “No, but everyone can be as intellectually honest. “

    Contrary to your beliefs, I fully believe I am being intellectually honest. I would love for there to be a case to convict this President as I find nearly all of his actions reprehensible. I just have not been able to see a legal case which can be made to do it. And you have not done a convincing job so far. I am open to being proven wrong, and it would be nice if I was, but please do not insinuate my dishonesty when I am only trying to debate the facts as I know them.

    I welcome you to continue to bring to light any new information to debate me, but please try to refrain from the name calling. Not because it hurts my delicate sensibilities, but because it denigrates the quality of debate and only makes you appear to be childish for having to resort to such tactics (out of contempt or whatever). I believe we are very much on the same team, so keeping this civil only helps to ensure the integrity of the argument.

    Me (much earlier):

    “While it seems a sin to violate treaties/agreements/conventions that we have signed in good faith with good reason, for practical purposes the application and enforcement of those agreements with regard to US citizens in US courts, are pretty well delineated.”

    Truth Machine:

    “Right, for practical (more accurately, political) purposes, the courts don't follow the plain words of the Constitution that state that treaties are "the supreme law of the land" -- but the quite different point that David Byron, Bramble, and I have addressed is whether the law was in fact broken. Violating treaties is a sin, and it's illegal. But a great deal that is illegal is never enforced, and a great deal of law is never applied, or is misapplied -- consider Bush v. Gore. Did the SCOTUS violate the law with that decision? Well, it's a philosophical and semantic question. It certainly broke the law in a quite literal sense.”

    I agree with all the sentiments of your statement, but not entirely with all the content. Your supposition that treaties are “the supreme law of the land” is accurate, only up to the point that new law is created to override it.

    That is the main point of my argument. Whether the AUMF is inconsistent with or even contrary to the UN Charter, it is, in fact US law. For the President to be guilty of breaking US law, he would have had to have not followed the AUMF. If your argument is primarily that he has broken international law, and that congress did so, as well, by granting permission to the President and continuing to fund the effort, I concede that you may have a strong case. But you need to keep your strong feelings of what is right in context of what is legal under US Law. The more I read your responses, the more evident it is that you are conflating the two issues.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous10:33 PM

    I apologize for using this type of language, but it seems to be what you best identify with.

    No need to apologize, it's just noise unless you let it control you. As for "best identify with", I think you're confused. You might well identify me with it -- that would be rational, a simple case of pattern matching.

    I would reply that when quoting the AUMF to me as an explanation as to how intellectually dishonest my arguments are, I might suggest he tune up his reading comprehension enough to realize that he is quoting the AUMF for US action in retaliation for the September 11 terrorist attacks, and not the AUMF for action against Iraq. Two different documents that can be identified by reading the heading, instead of hastily cutting and pasting from the first google response of 'AUMF' to pop up.

    Well silly me! But this is neither a matter of intellectual dishonesty nor poor reading comprehension, rather it was careless and, well, downright foolish.

    And since the congress continued to support, and fund, the military mission in Iraq, the President can not be convicted of breaking the law.

    You're just repeating your claim that I have already addressed, without taking my response into account. That can be put in the category of bad faith; see http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html ("A CODE OF CONDUCT FOR EFFECTIVE RATIONAL DISCUSSION" -- the link is down, but it's in the google cache).
    (even if you think I'm a total jerk and disagree with everything I say, you should find value in this :-)

    The President can be convicted of breaking the law, even if he didn't. And he might not be convicted, even if he did. The question isn't whether he can be convicted, but whether he actually broke the law. I claim he did, and I've given my reasons for thinking so.

    First, we are debating the President's action with regard to the AUMF, not FISA. They are separate issues, not easily conflated as you try to do.

    No, we're debating the legality of his action, and I claim that the UN Charter governs; to say "with regard to the AUMF" is to beg the question. And you're missing the point of the analogy involving FISA -- a common sign of intellectual weakness, if I do say so. I conflated nothing. My claim was that, if we accept your logic in re waging the Iraq war, then to be consistent we must accept Bush's argument in re NSA eavesdropping. It's special pleading to insist that the logic only be applied to one of these.

    Second, you claim that treaties cannot be overruled willy-nilly by Congress while maintaining a pretense..., etc. My response is, says who?

    Says me, with considerable argument that you snipped. Bad faith, to simply ignore the justifications I have already given for my statements and then demand my justifications.

    What law prohibits congress from enacting new laws which contradict or override existing laws?

    The laws of logic and common sense say that a party to an agreement cannot simply declare that aspects of the agreement do not apply to it and yet it is still in compliance with the agreement -- this is like Bush's signing orders that say he doesn't have to interpret the law as it was written. The Supreme Court could apply straightforward legal reasoning to declare actions that contradict a treaty in force to be illegal -- although it most likely won't.

    Contrary to your beliefs, I fully believe I am being intellectually honest.

    Ah, but intellectual dishonesty is about lying to oneself, so that's not contrary to my beliefs.

    please do not insinuate my dishonesty when I am only trying to debate the facts as I know them.

    But that's not all you have done. I have noted reasons for making a charge of intellectual dishonesty. It was very clear in your 12:40 AM post which simply ignored my arguments in my 9:56 PM post. I noted that Glenn offered three ways in which an action could violate the UN Charter and still be legal under US law, and pointed out that none of those three ways apply. That argument still stands unrebutted. In response, you gave me the definition of "abrogate", which was never in doubt, and asserted that you hadn't claimed that Congress had not abrogated the UN Charter -- which not only hadn't I disputed, but which was essential to my argument. If you had actually attempted to address the argument I made, we could have saved a lot of time.

    because it denigrates the quality of debate

    I disagree; I believe the actions which my language is in response to ares what denigrates the quality of debate. All you're talking about is form, not substance, but the substance of the debate is destroyed when people don't follow the demands of good faith, responding to arguments actually made rather than strawmen. The denigration of the debate is why the same things get repeated rather than progressing. It doesn't matter how politely they get repeated.

    and only makes you appear to be childish for having to resort to such tactics (out of contempt or whatever)

    Again, I disagree. I don't believe that there's anything "childish" about it -- that's a ridiculous meme no matter how widespread it is. I've never met a child who uses the phrases I do, in the contexts that I do. Anyway, it really doesn't matter to me whether I appear childish to you; if such ad hominem considerations affect your ability to parse my arguments, that's something you will have to take responsibility for and deal with.

    I believe we are very much on the same team, so keeping this civil only helps to ensure the integrity of the argument

    What if we weren't on the same team -- would that change whether civility ensure the integrity of the argument? That sounds like nonsense to me; the integrity of the argument is only ensured by following good faith, along the lines of the code of conduct that I cited in the URL above. "Civility", as a matter of whether certain noise words appear scattered through the discourse, have nothing to do with "the integrity of the argument".

    Your supposition that treaties are 'the supreme law of the land' is accurate, only up to the point that new law is created to override it.

    I've responded to this above, but again: one party to an agreement cannot unilaterally override part of the agreement and still be in compliance with it! If you don't agree, then we are speaking different languages or are on different planets or something.

    That is the main point of my argument. Whether the AUMF is inconsistent with or even contrary to the UN Charter, it is, in fact US law. For the President to be guilty of breaking US law, he would have had to have not followed the AUMF.

    The UN Charter, as long as it is in force, is in fact US law. The President is guilty of breaking US law if he violates the UN Charter. If law A is in force, and Congress passes law B, and the executive claims that its action is in accordance with law B, but it in fact violates law A, then the SCOTUS has to sort out which law applies. If it is clear that Congress had no intention for law B to cancel law A or any portion of it, then law A still applies and the executive action is illegal. In the case of the UN Charter, it is quite clear that Congress had no intention of abrogating it, and it cannot override it piecemeal, as I argued above.

    Of course, that's not how things will go. First, the SCOTUS won't rule Bush's actions illegal. Even if it could, it can't impose sanctions on the President; only Congress can do that -- and it won't, certainly not under Republican control. But conceivably Bush could be impeached and found guilty of waging an illegal war. An impeachment conviction is a conviction under US law, but it's not based on any law on the books or any court decision, it's a result of a vote by members of Congress, making much of this discussion moot.

    But you need to keep your strong feelings of what is right in context of what is legal under US Law. The more I read your responses, the more evident it is that you are conflating the two issues.

    Frankly, I don't think that's an honest or reasoned assessment. I repeatedly gave reasons for why the President's actions are illegal under US Law, based entirely on their violation of the UN Charter, which is US law. I did not appeal to any other international law, nor did I appeal to my feelings of what is right -- which really have very little to do with current US law, and would probably have the full force of the government after me if I expressed them.

    This thread has scrolled or is about to scroll off the front page, and I've already spent far to long on it. I hope my comments prove of some value to you, but I don't think I have anything to gain by coming back here. Ciao.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous1:02 AM

    Oops, there's a double negative in there. Make that

    In response, you gave me the definition of "abrogate", which was never in doubt, and asserted that you hadn't claimed that Congress had [] abrogated the UN Charter -- which not only hadn't I disputed, but which was essential to my argument.

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  127. Anonymous1:26 AM

    Therefore what do people think of the legality of the Kosovo war? If you still think that the Kosovo war was legal then on what grounds?

    I've never believed the Kosovo war to be legal. As I said earlier to Hypatia, But you're too morally corrupt to recognize that we don't approve of Clinton's violations of the law, either, and I quoted you: Kosovo was clearly illegal. ... [Clinton] should be arrested and tried by a US court as he commited US crimes..

    In fact, I considered Kosovo a terrible precedent, that would surely pave the way for wars that my liberal friends-gone-hypocritical would not approve of.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous11:41 AM

    David Byron,

    First, let me apologize if my last communication with you was too tantrumish. I was frustrated, as I felt I was banging my head against the wall. It probably was not justifiable, but sometimes you have to take a step back.

    Anyway, you ask some good questions and make some good points, and it looks like you are seeing some of the point I was making (even if we are reaching different conclusions).

    I don’t know if it is that I haven’t been making my points clear enough or that people are just dismissing them out of hand as they may be contrary to their opinions.

    Let me address a couple of the things you brought up.

    David:

    ”But there's no reason to believe Congress intended to override the UN charter in writing the AUMF. On the contrary you've agreed they were deferential to it. You almost seem to agree that Congress didn't intend to override the UN Charter. But that's the whole question.”

    My argument is that the congress showed deference to the UN and believed that they were being consistent with their obligations of enforcing current resolutions while protecting the self-interests of the US, hence the stipulations of “facts,” as they knew them. I suggest that intent is irrelevant. Whether they intended to override the UN charter or not, but passing the AUMF the net effect was the same.

    David:

    ”Are you arguing that the Congress did not say Bush could override the UN charter but did say that in their opinion all the criteria had been met under the charter for the use of force?”

    Yes, that is what I am saying. I don’t believe congresses intent was to override the UN charter. Again, I think they thought they were be consistent with it, but still wanted to give the President authority to use force as a stronger bargaining chip, hence again, the stipulations. The congress (or least some of them) may have only intended to give the President the authority as a way to strengthen his hand in dealing with Iraq (hoping he would exercise good faith), but in doing so, they gave him a legal pass to do what HE thought was appropriate.

    Congress could have stopped the President in a number of different ways, including deeming his response as not in keeping with their intent or by simply pulling the plug on the funding. They did neither, so by proxy, they held legal his actions.

    David:

    ”Fifthly the criteria for the use of force is not static. It's not as if once it happens then that's good forever. It's dependent very much on the facts of the moment. Congress might have had an opinion of the situation when the law was signed but that doesn't imply they'd have the same view by the time of the invasion several months later”

    That is true, it is not static, but their inaction to reverse the course shows that they felt his actions were consistent with their law. If their (congress) opinion, as a body, did change , they could have taken steps to remedy it (examples are listed in my above response) but they did not.

    David:

    ”…”Whereas” clauses. Their only relevence [sp.] is to deduce congress's intent or state of mind. In particular if Congress states a "fact" in the Whereas clauses it doesn't make that a "fact" in law. It does make it a fact that Congress thought it was a fact.”

    This is true. Facts as they know them or believe them can be proven wrong, thus yielding them non-facts. However, the only intent you can infer, is the intent that is implied in the AUMF law. After it is written, it is up to the judiciary to decide intent and to decide if the law is consistent with the constitution. Now, the SCOTUS may decide the AUMF was inconsistent with US law and deem it unconstitutional. If they did, that would implicate the congress, more so than the President.

    I will emphasize again that I am no lawyer; in fact I am very new to this whole blogging debate thing. I do learn a lot and I hope I contribute in a meaningful way.

    Truth Machine, I have not ignored your last post, in fact I’m not sure that you are even still following this. I haven’t addressed your points yet, as I am doing some research on the issues.

    I only posted this to more clearly state my point (as wrong as you may deem it), and to reply to and apologize to David.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous6:21 PM

    David Byron wrote:

    ”Afterall it's not the 2002 Congress but the 1945 (1946?) Congress that signed off on the treaty. It's the will of that Congress that Bush is accused of violating. Now if we could talk to them, or if there was a record of their view on this it would be relevent but the 2002 Congress are not unless they overturn the law set by the 1945 Congress.”

    Congress is an elected and fluid body, it matters not which number (e.g. 109th) they are. The congress’s enacting of laws is the relevant point. Intent of previous congress’s actions are not for new congresses to decide. They can either accept it prima facie, or enact new laws to modify, or abrogate the old.

    David wrote:
    ”Glenn's view is that is what they did. We all agree (now) that they could have done that. You and I beleive they did not do so.”

    I can’t speak for Glenn’s view. However, I believe that although it may not have been their intent, the AUMF does, indeed, invalidate or abrogate the UN charter (at least with regard to the provision of not attacking another country without UNSC consent). I do believe that they thought they were wholly consistent with the UN, in terms of forcing the disarmament of Iraq and other UN resolutions which ascribed a “by all means necessary” approach to Iraqi compliance.

    Let’s just agree, for arguments sake, that Bush (and Congress by proxy), broke the International Law. This is relevant on international legal grounds, moral grounds and ethical grounds (as far as acting in good faith on the part of the US with regard to signed treaties). We can only wildly imagine that the UN will form a coalition of the willing to invade the US and capture and drag members of our congress and the President to the Hague for war crimes. I think we can all agree that aint gonna happen. That does not, however, make our governments actions right, moral, ethical, virtuous or even legal with regard to international law.

    Now the crux of the issue and the original question (or modified version of the question, to which I am addressing), is did the President break US law.

    You and Truth Machine contend he has because the UN charter is the law of our land. Some of you believe there is no way to change this. I have seen lots of arguments and opinions as to why it is in poor form to disregard an international law, especially while trying to maintain a pretense of following it and/or using it when it is convenient to our cause.

    I can’t argue with the latter, but the former argument (there is no way to change the law) I find very problematic. With all of the blustering and posturing, I have not seen any way to justify this argument.

    Laws are always modified, overridden and/or abolished. Sometimes it done by the judiciary and sometimes by acts of congress.

    I believe the AUMF had the effect of overriding the UN charter. Not by formally cutting ties with the UN, and not by abrogating it as no longer valid. But by issuing the President the authority to use force, as he deemed appropriate re:

    ” Joint Resolution
    To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against
    Iraq. NOTE: Oct. 16, 2002 - H.J. Res. 114…

    Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to
    restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region:
    Now, therefore, be it

    Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
    States of America in Congress NOTE: Authorization for Use of Military
    Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. 50 USC 1541 note. assembled,…”


    ”SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
    Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
    appropriate in order to--
    (1) defend the national security of the United States
    against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
    resolutions regarding Iraq.”



    If you or anyone can tell me which part of this Law (AUMF) the President either did not follow or which Actions the President took when using force against Iraq that congress has not supported; it would greatly help to illustrate to me the point you are making that the President broke US Law.

    By following the AUMF and continuing to report to the congress (as required) the congress has either accepted the President’s actions as fully in accordance with the intent of the AUMF or by neglecting to act on perceived breaches, are contributing to the crimes you allege and are complicit (if not responsible) for any crimes this country is committing.

    So what I proffer is that even if the AUMF was to be found unconstitutional by the SCOTUS, the implications of breaching the law would befall the congress more so than the President (although the President’s actions would be repudiated and the troops immediately redeployed or withdrawn).

    David said:
    ”For our purposes when we ask if Bush broke the law then I guess it's just up to us to figure out if the UN charter was broken.”

    From my perspective (which may be wrong, I’d like Glenn to eventually weigh in on this), it does not matter if the UN Charter was broken to assign guilt to Bush. That guilt may be better directed to congress (for the US allegedly breaking international law). As far as I can tell (Again my opinion) Bush didn’t break the law (of the US), but could be found complicit along with the congress in allegedly breaking international law.

    David said:

    ”Many people in Congress are lawyers but I don't get the feeling they really paid the details of the UN charter much heed [sic.]. The 2002 Congress' legal opinion on a law they didn't write has no more weight than any of our opinions”

    Amen! I don’t think most of the congress gave a lot of thought as to the large scale effect of their actions. Many did, and voted no. Others may have believed they were doing what they thought was best for US, especially in the politically, tenuous, fear mongering atmosphere of post 9/11. History will judge the decision they made and why they made them (and I’m guessing) with much contempt.

    Two questions you could answer for me to get us closer to the same page (even if we’re reading different languages):

    (1) Do you believe that the President did not follow the terms of the AUMF, and by doing so broke US Law? Please explain (use the AUMF and point out specific sections of it which the President acted illegally)

    (2) Do you believe that there is no way that the AUMF could ever override existing international law? Please explain (citing specific constitutional prohibitions of congress enacting new law contrary to existing law)

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous11:05 PM

    Ok, let’s give this another shot.

    First I might suggest, for the purposes of having you at least identify from where it is I’m coming from, we need to drop the whole “intent” argument. Let’s just take intent for what it is (in terms of congressional legislation) -- unimportant arbitrary vagaries. I say this only because we need to focus on the law (AUMF) and how it can be interpreted. The final arbiter on interpretation will obviously be SCOTUS, but we need to identify how it can be interpreted for practical application.

    Ok then -- intent is behind us.

    I asked:

    Do you believe that the President did not follow the terms of the AUMF, and by doing so, broke US Law?”

    David responded:

    No, he broke the UN charter. And the FISA law. He didn't breach the AUMF... well maybe he did that too but it's not relevent to the legality of the war (eg. I think he failed to keep Congress updated).

    Let’s focus on the bolded part, because if you believe that, you share my view.

    You continue with maybe he did but it’s not relevant to the legality of the war. Now let’s not back track, unless you really think he did violate the AUMF. If you can agree with it, we can move on to the next part of your sentence where you say it’s not relevant to the legality of the war. To this part I say I agree to the point that it is not relevant for now, because for my arguments purpose we are talking about only the AUMF which is US Law.

    So for this part, thus far, can we agree the President did not break the US law, more specifically, the AUMF?

    I think we can also agree that the UN charter is “International Law” as well as adopted US Law.

    If we have that established, we can move on to whether or not the UN charter can be overridden by newly enacted US law. I think we can agree that it can. Now we need to establish whether or not the AUMF overrode the UN Charter. For practical purposes I am focusing on the Chapter VII of the UN charter that requires UNSC agreement to take “action with respect to threats to peace, breaches of the peace, and acts of aggression,” or any other section that deals with taking military action. Even though the UN charter had been adopted US law, as the AUMF clearly spells out, it is giving the President authority to use force under section 3 as follows:

    ”SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
    Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
    appropriate
    in order to--
    (1) defend the national security of the United States
    against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
    resolutions regarding Iraq.”


    So, since the new US Law (AUMF) is contrary to the UN in terms of utilizing action, it becomes the new “law of the land” with regard to using military force. Remember, my contention is that it does not matter what the congress intended, it only matters what the law says, what it allows and how it can be literally and legally interpreted. Does the AUMF cede authority to use force to the President?

    Now, if we have established and agreed that the President did not break US law with regard to how he acted under the AUMF, and we established and agreed that the UN charter can be legally be overridden by newly enacted Law which is contrary to thereby superseding it -- We have come to agreement on the argument I’ve been making the whole time, That the President is not Guilty of breaking US Law

    Back to intent, as that seems to be the consuming issue of many here. As I argued, intent is irrelevant with the effect of US law. However, I have argued that I did not believe that congress had the explicit intent to abrogate or override the UN charter. In fact, I have argued that the drafting of the AUMF was trying to be wholly considerate of the UN charter. I think they believed that substantial evidence had been established to meet the UN’s resolution 1441 “Holding Iraq in “material breach” and threatened "serious consequences" for non-compliance. They stipulated in the AUMF that the conditions have been met. They believed Bush’s promise of trying to find diplomatic measures to resolve the issue, but the AUMF explicitly gave the President permission to exercise the AUMF as he deemed appropriate (as I spelled out above). I also believe that congress’s deference to the UN did not concede the sovereign right of the US to defend itself or to take whatever measures they deemed appropriate regardless of external legal constraints. I am not agreeing with it, but I believe that congress can and did act in this way. I have expressed my opinions many times before with regard to Congressional intent so I won’t belabor the point. If you have a particular argument with my contention on this matter, you can address that.

    Assuming that is behind us, we can move on to whether the US via the President via Congress broke international law. I think there can be considerable evidence to maintain this position. As I outlined in my other post, congress and by proxy the President can be held in contempt of international laws. Since there is no realistic legal consequence to this issue, I believe it is futile to debate. And before anyone jumps all over me for discarding international law and precedent, I think it is entirely counterintuitive, counterproductive and just generally an egregious abuse of trusts which destroys long-standing relationships and treaties. The consequences can be devastating and difficult if not impossible to repair as well as impossible to enforce others.

    Anyway, that’s enough for now.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous3:23 PM

    David said:

    You're just making the same points now. It's all been refuted

    You have disagreed with my positions; this does not, however, refute them. Just as you don’t find my conclusions credible to your interpretation of the Law does not make mine wrong. I may be wrong, you may be wrong; we both think we are right. All the bluster about refutations will not conclude the issue for either of us. I think I’m reasonable and you’re not, just as I’m sure you and others may think the opposite. Barring adjudication of this matter, it is all just legal interpretation.

    I will however try to justify my position a little more, if you (or anyone) is interested.

    I said:

    ”…the AUMF explicitly gave the President permission to exercise the AUMF as he deemed appropriate…”

    David said:

    ”Just not true. It gave him conditional authority”

    I agree. It was conditional and the President met the conditions to use military force against Iraq. Besides section 3 (a) of the AUMF which I cited many times, I will cite 3 (b):

    ”(b) Presidential Determination.--In connection with the exercise of
    the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President
    shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible,
    but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make
    available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the
    President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
    (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or
    other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately
    protect the national security of the United States against the
    continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to
    enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council
    resolutions regarding Iraq;”


    You have already said that the President did not act contrary to the AUMF. Congress agrees, as they have received all the information for justification of actions from the President and they did nothing to refute them.

    Now, this section I just cited, explicitly spells out the conditions under which the President can use action. If you note 3 (b) (1) (A) & (B), those are the conditions and the President met them; congress (the majority body) agreed.

    Here is the main point of disagreement:

    David said:

    ”The AUMF is clearly not contrary to the UN charter. On the contrary it is deferential to the UN charter and the authority of the UN. You've read the damn thing. You know it's silly to try and make it sound like an anti-UN law.”

    Although the AUMF is deferential to the UN Charter, it also Authorizes the President to use force if he meets the conditions of the AUMF; most notably section 3 (b) (1). Read it carefully.

    So, if the congress gave the President to use force; and the President used force; and Congress agreed that the President used the force within the conditional requirements of the AUMF; and in doing so, violated the terms of the UN Charter (with regard to using force without UNSC consent): then; the President did not break US Law.

    If you can not agree with this logic, then we will clearly have to agree to disagree.

    One final point!

    David said:

    ”But you just said that you thought they didn't intend to overturn the UN charter. Which is it? Did they or didn't they? Did Congress intend to overturn the UN charter or NOT? it's a very simple question.”

    It is a simple question, and I have answered it. My answer again is it does not matter what they intended. It only matters what the Law (AUMF) allows. A more convoluted answer to this simple question would be that they did not want to be contrary to the UN as they may have been hoping for diplomatic resolutions. They also may have thought that being contrary to the UNSC (or at least acting without consent, as a vote on military action was never taken (because it would not have passed)) could be justified by resolution 1441 (by taken “serious action” to disarm by enforcing existing resolutions). But ultimately it doesn’t matter (their intent that is) as the law clearly allows for actions contrary to the strict adherence to the UN charter, thereby abrogating it.

    Additionally David said:

    ”Your argument could be used to justify any lawlessness by Bush. Illegal spying?”

    My argument DOES NOT justify lawlessness by Bush. I’ve explained how different the spying scandal is and why. Additionally, the only lawlessness (based on my argument) that could be considered would be a breach of the UN charter, which is not lawless (with regard to US Laws), as it was permissible under the legal authorities granted by the AUMF.

    Again, you still may not see my opinion or argument as valid, and perhaps you are right. That is one reason I was hoping for Glenn to chime in from a Constitutional Law expert perspective. So if you think I’m off base, we shall just agree to disagree.

    Thanks for the spirited debate!

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous5:00 PM

    Good grief! As I said before, so many words, so little said -- refuted arguments get repeated as if the refutation had never appeared. Ya gotta love this from propulgate:

    I don’t know if it is that I haven’t been making my points clear enough or that people are just dismissing them out of hand as they may be contrary to their opinions.

    Well, gee, I guess that exhausts the possibilities. Except, um, for the possibility that you're wrong, and have been shown wrong.

    I believe that although it may not have been their intent, the AUMF does, indeed, invalidate or abrogate the UN charter (at least with regard to the provision of not attacking another country without UNSC consent).

    Oh, that's rich! This contradicts what you said before -- you repeatedly insisted that it did not abrogate the UN Charter, you said that was a straw man, and that I should change my moniker for suggesting that you had claimed any such thing (but I hadn't suggested it).

    But it is utterly absurd to suggest, in effect, that Congress accidentally withdrew the U.S. from the UN. The only justification for such a claim is a desperate attempt to hang onto the claim that the law -- the UN Charter -- wasn't violated, because it was no longer in effect. Nothing could be more dishonest.

    You have disagreed with my positions; this does not, however, refute them.

    Your arguments have been refuted, in part by yourself, and you simply refuse to acknowledge it because you're acting in bad faith, treating this as some sort of debate club exercise instead of an attempt to establish the truth. Here, this could have been written with you in mind:

    What I have been calling nefarious rhetoric recurs in a rudimentary form also in impromptu discussions. Someone harbors a prejudice or an article of faith or a vested interest, and marshals ever more desperate and threadbare arguments in defence of his position rather than be swayed by reason or face the facts. Even more often, perhaps, the deterrent is just stubborn pride: reluctance to acknowledge error. Unscientific man is beset by a deplorable desire to have been right. The scientist is distinguished by a desire to BE right.
    -
    Willard V. O. Quine
    Rhetoric (1987)


    The desire to be right and the desire to have been right are two desires, and the sooner we separate them the better off we are. The desire to be right is the thirst for truth. On all accounts, both practical and theoretical, there is nothing but good to be said for it. The desire to have been right, on the other hand, is the pride that goeth before a fall. It stands in the way of our seeing we were wrong, and thus blocks the progress of our knowledge.

    W.V. Quine and J. S. Ullian, The Web of Belief (Random House, New York, 2nd edition, 1978), p. 133

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous5:22 PM

    Also, in regard to

    Now the crux of the issue and the original question (or modified version of the question, to which I am addressing), is did the President break US law.

    This only became the "modified version of the question" because Glenn was such an incredible jackass in the way that he totally dismissed international law. But the crux goes back to David's first comment here:

    The other day Glenn was defending the illegal occupation at Crooks and Liars and also denying that an opposition to the illegal Iraq war ought to imply an opposition to the illegal Iraq occupation. How are such sentiments to be squared with this new concept that the US president should obey the law?

    "The President cannot be allowed to break the law no matter what motives he claims he has in doing so and no matter what conduct he engages in when breaking the law."


    Indeed, the President should not be allowed to break the law -- any law. And if everyone except Glenn-in-asshole-mode agrees that he broke the law, then this "debate" is no more than a stupid game.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous6:16 PM

    Truth machine says:

    ”Oh, that's rich! This contradicts what you said before -- you repeatedly insisted that it did not abrogate the UN Charter, you said that was a straw man, and that I should change my moniker for suggesting that you had claimed any such thing (but I hadn't suggested it).”

    It doesn’t contradict what I said before. Here is the exact quote:

    TM:
    “Propulgate's arguments are absurd -- the U.S. Congress clearly did not, and did not intend to, abrogate the UN Charter.”

    Me:
    ”Straw man. I never said their intent was to abrogate the UN Charter. You may want to rethink your moniker.”

    As you can clearly see, I said that “I never their intent was to abrogate the UN Charter,” not that the charter had not been abrogated. Whether you think so or not, they are two different things.

    Christ, I spelled out time and again my arguments as to how I thought this happened. Did you even read what I said, or were you trying so desperately to display your perceived intellectual prowess that you only looked for bullet points to attempt to refute? I am sure you can even admit that it is possible for a law to have legal consequences which go beyond what the drafters had intended or hoped. May be you can’t.

    T.M. continues:

    ”But it is utterly absurd to suggest, in effect, that Congress accidentally withdrew the U.S. from the UN. The only justification for such a claim is a desperate attempt to hang onto the claim that the law -- the UN Charter -- wasn't violated, because it was no longer in effect. Nothing could be more dishonest.”

    You can call anything I say absurd (or anything else you like), however, you yet again put words in my mouth. I never said the congress accidentally withdrew the US from the UN. You could try to piecemeal my responses to suggest that, but if that is what you took from it, it is not what I was suggesting.

    I suggested that by authorizing the President to use force (and doing so with or without the consent of the UNSC) they were in fact making law that would contradict the provisions of the UN charter requiring UNSC consent for any action. I don’t know how you can read that as a systematic withdrawal from the UN. I even stated that the US was and is acting in bad faith by breaching their responsibilities to the UN and still maintaining a pretense to adhere and enforce UN resolutions.

    I also didn’t claim the UN charter wasn’t violated. I actually went into lengthy discussion about how easily an international case could be made for violating international laws. I also pointed out that the probabilities of it occurring are zero to none.

    As far as you saying that I said it wasn’t violated because it was longer in effect; I didn’t. I suggested that the UN charter (more specifically, provision therein) were overridden by the new legislation (AUMF). Obviously if a new law is enacted which gives authority to contradict provisions of another law, that new law is now the precedent.

    TM says: (and I particularly love this morsel)

    “…treating this as some sort of debate club exercise instead of an attempt to establish the truth…”

    Your perceptions of how I treat things mean little to nothing to me, as you don’t even know me. I’m sure you will say you don’t care to know me, or something more sarcastically clever, and that’s fine!

    It must be nice standing on top of the world with your almighty omniscience, being able to know exactly what every law means, how it can only be interpreted, what every person’s intent is, and knowing who is and who is not acting in bad faith.

    I don’t suggest I have such powers as you, but I do come here for knowledge, perspective and a search for truth. I even learn things from you.

    Although you find my perspective to be somewhat unsettling or as you say “intellectually dishonest,” it does not make them wrong. I may very well be wrong, but until this case is adjudicated, we’ll have to wait and see.

    As for your pasting of the eloquent prose of other writers, I would only say they could very easily be reflective of you.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous6:31 PM

    I'm going to take one more stab at this:

    Both Glenn and David has pointed out that Congress, by authorizing Bush to "use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to -- defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq", did not authorize him to break any law he pleases in doing so. This point is simply not deniable -- to do so is an act of bad faith. It is particularly intellectually dishonest to dismiss the fact that, if one accepts this in regard to FISA, then one must also accept it in regard to the UN Charter. This argument was made, and not rebutted. All we got instead was mealy-mouthed garbage about how it's just a matter of opinion between David and Propulate and only adjudication can settle it. As if, were someone to deny that 1+1=2, we would need adjudication to settle it.

    Ok, so Propulgate is dishonest in simply ignoring or dismissing the unassailable argument that Congress did not authorize Bush to break any old law he pleases in making his determination of what is "necessary and appropriate". But one migh t presume that he ignores or dismisses it because he doesn't intellectually grasp it, and would consider it if he did. So, let's offer a very simple analogy:

    Consider a law that authorizes you to drive through an intersection when the light is green ... does that law reverse, abrogate, or override laws against reckless endangerment, manslaughter, etc., freeing you to drive through the intersection even if there are people in it?

    In both cases we have an authorizing law. In neither case does it override other laws that it doesn't even mention. When driving through an intersection, you are implicitly authorized to use your gas and brake pedals as you determine necessary and appropriate, but that isn't a blank check for running people over, smashing into other vehicles, etc. The AUMF explicitly authorized Bush to use the military as he determined necessary and appropriate, but that isn't a blank check to violate any law he pleases -- it isn't a blank check to engage in aggressive acts banned by the UN Charter. The UN Charter is the law of the land, and limits appropriate use of the military to legitimate self defense.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous6:56 PM

    It doesn’t contradict what I said before.

    Follow carefully, Propulgate ...

    Here is the exact quote:

    TM:
    “Propulgate's arguments are absurd -- the U.S. Congress clearly did not, and did not intend to, abrogate the UN Charter.”


    Note, first, as I have already pointed out, that I was not saying that the statement after "--" was your argument. What I was saying is that your arguments were absurd BECAUSE Congress clearly didn't abrogate the UN Charter nor intended to -- and that's still my position. Note that I wrote "did not, AND did not intend to". But now you claim to disagree with that; that Congress DID abrograte the UN Charter. So you now claim to disagree with my statement above. But that wasn't your response at the time:

    Me:
    ”Straw man. I never said their intent was to abrogate the UN Charter. You may want to rethink your moniker.”


    Not, "no, that's wrong, they DID abrogate it". You then went on quite a but about how they showed deference to the Charter. At no time did you claim that they actually abrogated the Charter ... until very late in the debate, when that was the only desperate move you had left to hold on to your unyielding position that Bush didn't violate the law.

    . I never said the congress accidentally withdrew the US from the UN

    I said "in effect" -- abrogating our agreement with the nations of the world in effect would be a withdrawal from the UN. As I said, you're just playing a game here.

    Obviously if a new law is enacted which gives authority to contradict provisions of another law

    This is the same stupid shit that you keep repeating and that has been refuted over and over. There is no language in the AUMF that says the president has the authority to contradict the provisions of the UN Charter. Notably, you have said that the Congress didn't intend such authorization, so any interpretation of the "necessary and appropriate" language of the AUMF as giving the President that authority must be INCORRECT.

    God, what a waste.

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  137. Anonymous7:25 PM

    I suggested that by authorizing the President to use force (and doing so with or without the consent of the UNSC) they were in fact making law that would contradict the provisions of the UN charter requiring UNSC consent for any action.

    This is what I mean by bad faith -- David already addressed this at length, but you ignored his argument then and you continue to ignore it, because you are fixed in your position, a position contradicted by his reasoning. "with or without consent" -- the AUMF doesn't specify whether the President must get consent. So there are two ways to interpret it -- it authorizes the President to act within the restrictions of other governing laws, or it authorizes him to act regardless of other governing laws. Only one of these is a sensible interpretation -- and it ain't yours, since you acknowledge that Congress didn't intend to authorize the President to violate the UN Charter. It's the same as a law that allows you to enter an intersection when the light turns green, with or without running over people. The green light law is silent about running over people, as well as a lot of other matters. That doesn't mean that the green light overrides any law that you might violate by entering the intersection.

    You might think that analysis is plainly wrong and be able to say why, but you've never even ADDRESSED it. You just keep asserting that the AUMF contradicted the UN Charter and authorized the President to violate it, even though there's NO LANGUAGE in the AUMF that says that. It's just your ridiculous interpretation, one that would make John Yoo proud, that because the AUMF doesn't explicitly say that the President must obey the law in making his determination of what is "necessary and appropriate", he has been authorized to break it. You can only get there by refusing to be honestly critical of your position, instead taking it as something that your attached to, that you will only give up upon "adjudication".

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous7:35 PM

    It must be nice standing on top of the world with your almighty omniscience, being able to know exactly what every law means, how it can only be interpreted, what every person’s intent is, and knowing who is and who is not acting in bad faith.

    You're such a pathetic hypocritical whiner. It is you who knows that the AUMF authorized the President to violate the UN Charter even though it contains no language that says so and that's not what Congress intended.

    I'd LOL if it weren't so sad.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous8:25 PM

    Truth Machine says:

    ”You might think that analysis is plainly wrong and be able to say why, but you've never even ADDRESSED it. You just keep asserting that the AUMF contradicted the UN Charter and authorized the President to violate it, even though there's NO LANGUAGE in the AUMF that says that. It's just your ridiculous interpretation,”

    Here is my problem with your analysis. The AUMF cites UN resolutions in determining the conclusion for the need to use force. I think it was carefully written to project an air of deference to the UN (I say this, because I believe it was written by Admin. Officials), until it is no longer useful to their goal. After all the stipulations of offenses of UN resolutions, they made clear that it was in the security and self-defense interest of the United States to take matters into their own hands, if necessary.

    And by “if necessary” they will disregard any other treaties which require consent. Since congress passed the AUMF, they are complicit in all the consequences of it “internationally.”

    The AUMF clearly says what is expected of the President to comply with it. It may be clear now (and too many it was clear then) that the security of the United States was not in jeopardy, but the majority of congress voted to enact a law that stated Iraq was a threat to our security. It is spelled out in all the stipulations.

    By enacting the AUMF, the President was given the authority to use military action against Iraq, whether or NOT UNSC consent was granted. The AUMF carefully stipulated Constitutional Authority (e.g. Public law 107-40) as a means to display the sovereign right of self defense without additional provocation.

    In exercising the use of force, the President followed to the letter the conditions of the AUMF. He presented to congress and met all conditional requirements.

    As I said before, there may be a good case to say that AUMF was internationally illegal, but it is explicit that the AUMF was given to use force for national security purposes which may be contrary to the UN charter. But to say that the President violated US law by utilizing force under the AUMF, to me is a stretch.

    Hell, the AUMF even gave the President to use force by determining on his own what he thought was appropriate, so long as he could retroactively (within 48 hrs.) show his reasons to be consistent with the AUMF (shoot first and ask(answer) questions later).

    The AUMF could sooner be deemed unconstitutional then the President could be found guilty of following it.

    I’m sorry you feel like you have wasted your time, and I will not respond to some of the other accusations, assumptions and presumptions you made about me or my argument.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous10:17 AM

    David,

    I think you have done a very good job in arguing your case. I also think Truth Machine makes some very good and relevant point, notwithstanding his myriad of personal attacks on me.

    And TM, attacks on one’s character, because one doesn’t either fully agree or fully understand the other, goes beyond noise words; it is just plain poor form.

    Both of you have presented good analogies, which are wholly consistent with US Law, but I don’t believe that they are consistent with regard to the AUMF.

    Here is how wikipedia describes the AUMF for force against Iraq:

    ”The Resolution was significant in that it did not require the President to obtain UN Security Council authorization. Further, even if Iraq complied with UNSC resolutions, the President was still authorized to attack in order to protect the United States. This was, in effect, approval for President Bush to act unilaterally. This was viewed among American conservatives as a major impetus for the UNSC's unanimous adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 a few weeks later.”

    So although you believe, and Truth Machine of course knows that the AUMF was not giving the President authority to attack Iraq, regardless of UNSC consent, others clearly see it different.

    I am not trying to make excuses for the President. I believe exercised very bad intent and acted unethically in doing so. I do, however, believe he was given the authorization to do it, and used the authorization to legally justify his actions, as his actions were legally justifiable by the AUMF.

    Furthermore, although you (and others) do not believe the AUMF gave the President the right to act contrary to existing UN resolutions, I think I have showed that it does. It lets him utilize the UN resolutions when it is convenient, and to disregard the when they are contrary to the action of using force against Iraq. Remember, the AUMF clearly spells out how Iraq is a threat to the United States security and it was this resolution (AUMF) that was enacted to rectify it.

    Even the UN has exceptions for self defense. We know now (and many believed before) that Iraq wasn’t the threat we (majority of congress, as representatives of all Americans) believed it to be. For people to say they ABSOLUTELY knew that Iraq had no weapons programs and no intent to cause harm the US or our interests, are either blowing smoke, are omnipotent (far beyond rationalization of any plausible realm of possibilities), were inside Saddam’s head, or are Truth Machine. I think that most rational people believed there was always a possibility that Iraq was a threat. There were many ignored resolutions, many intelligence inconsistencies and much threatening rhetoric and posturing from Saddam to indicate there was.

    I guess you have to ask yourself, when is it permissible to take steps toward self defense?

    In this case, we were proven wrong about the weapons. Many believe (like me) that we were intentionally misled. There is some proof out there that supports this. But unless it can be irrefutably proven that the President deliberately lied and that he knew for absolute certain that Iraq was no threat, then you have to accept the legal arguments that the AUMF was drafted, enacted and executed with the intent to protect America.

    In conclusion, you can see we disagree on how the AUMF was legally interpreted and it’s intent or effect.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Daid:
    ”I have already laid out a very reasonable interpretation of the AUMF: that Congress wanted to authorise the use of force in the event that circumstances changed and war with Iraq became legal -- either as a result of Iraq attacking another nation or by the UN SC passing a resolution. It's also possible they (falsely) thought use of force would already be legal. In both scenarios they intended the use of force to be authorised only as consistent with the UN charter.”

    I have laid out a very reasonable interpretation of the AUMF, as well; many times. You just don’t accept it. You even say that ”It’s also possible they (falsely) thought the use of force would already be legal.”

    By congress authorizing force, it makes it legal. The exercise of enacting the AUMF and the utilization of force can be justified under the UN Charter as self defense. That does not mean that the AUMF only authorized force to be consistent with or in accordance with the UN charter (as you specify, Article 51).

    Quote the text.
    Quote the text that says the UN charter is overturned. It simply is not there.”


    ”AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ RESOLUTION OF 2002”

    ”This joint resolution may be cited as the ``Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002''”

    Those quoted text are rather explicit. Congress is Authorizing the President to use force.

    ”SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
    Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
    appropriate in order to--
    (1) defend the national security of the United States
    against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
    resolutions regarding Iraq”


    This is issuing permission to take action, now, on the basis of already established fact. Regardless of any other resolutions restricting action. Just because it does not say that we want you to act with complete and utter disregard for the UN or other treaties, does not mean it is not plainly implied.

    UN Resolution 687 (1991) is a ceasefire agreement of the 1991 Iraq war. Are you and TM claiming that because it does not explicitly state in the AUMF to ignore or break UN resolution 687(1991) that we can not take actions of self-defense of a perceived threat to the security of the United States?

    You guys claim that because it doesn’t state (in explicit quotes) to break UN treaties, that the AUMF could not legally be interpreted to break them when we deem it in our best interests to do so. Using that logic, we would clearly have to identify every resolution and treaty that we intended to break in the AUMF or a Declaration of War in order to proceed with action. That is ludicrous!

    The AUMF was an explicit law enacted to authorize the President to use force against Iraq. It had, within it, the conditions that needed to be met AFTER the force was used. But it was essentially the go ahead for military action, NOW. This does not mean that it completely dismisses the UN charter, it would just (possibly) violate Articles and resolutions within it.

    Me:
    ”Even the UN has exceptions for self defense”

    David:
    ”Irrelevent. The UN definition doesn't apply - and you agree it doesn't.”

    I don’t agree that it doesn’t. I’ve made my arguments many times and you have either ignored them or dismissed them. I think that the action taken could be justifiable under the UN definition of self-defense.

    Me:
    ”For people to say they ABSOLUTELY knew that Iraq had no weapons programs and no intent to cause harm the US or our interests”

    David:
    ”Irrelevent. Even if you knew for a fact Saddam had nukes and "intent" (as with the old Soviet Union for example) war would still be illegal - and you agree it would still be illegal.”

    I don’t agree. Furthermore, neither would the UN. That would have clearly violated numerous resolutions for Iraq to establish a nuclear weapons program and would have displayed obvious hostility for doing so. Therefore, if the genuine belief that Iraq was acting in this way, would justify a reaction of self defense.

    Me:
    ”I am not trying to make excuses for the President”

    David:
    ”Good. Because if you were you'd have failed. You do however have blind faith in him. You believe in him.”

    I have everything and anything but any kind of faith in the President. I have faith in the law, and like it or not, bad things can be done and still be legal.

    David:
    ”I'm a good debater and know more about the law I think.”

    You are, and you might.

    Me:
    ”I think that most rational people believed there was always a possibility that Iraq was a threat.”

    David:
    ”Irrelevent. That doesn't rise to the level of self defence under the UN charter - and you know and agree it does't.”

    I think the country whose interest and security would be best able to define what rises to the level of the need for self defense. That being said, it could very easily be determined by the UN that the US’s actions were in violation of the Charter (specifically Chapter VII and all contained Articles).

    Anyway, all of your points about the UN’s definition of self defense are irrelevant. Congress and the President had concluded that such a threat existed and as I have, yet again explained, the AUMF allowed him to take action, with or without UN consent.

    Your position of implied adherence to Laws not specifically cited is an ambiguous a restriction to me as my position of implied disregard is to you.

    You very well may no the law better than I. I have many times noted that I am not a lawyer and only have educated myself to the best of my understanding how the law works and how it’s applied. This does not make my positions or arguments dishonest. Even if you believe I am being dishonest with myself. I have considered your positions, probably more so than you have mine. You state the facts as you know them, and I do as well. I truly am trying to get to the truth, but sometimes interpretations of the law require adjudication. The results of that determination can also be debated. SCOTUS has overturned many a law and many with dissenting justification.

    So if you are right, and I am wrong, so be it. That does not mean I am ignoring your points. And maybe as TM has pointed out, I’m to daft to comprehend them.

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  142. Anonymous5:41 PM

    Here is another excerpt from wikipedia:

    ”The United States takes a different view concerning the relationship between international and domestic law than many other nations, particularly in Europe. Unlike nations which view international agreements as always superseding national law, the American view is that international agreements become part of the body of U.S. federal law. As a result, Congress can modify or repeal treaties by subsequent legislative action, even if this amounts to a violation of the treaty under international law. The most recent changes will be enforced by U.S. courts entirely independently of whether the international community still considers the old treaty obligations binding upon the U.S. Additionally, an international agreement that is inconsistent with the U.S. Constitution is void under domestic U.S. law, the same as any other federal law in conflict with the Constitution, and the Supreme Court could rule a treaty provision to be unconstitutional and void under domestic law, although it has never done so.”

    So if the Treaty is found to be inconsistent with the constitutionally; for example, any restrictions on the congress’s right to declare war or authorize force though a treaty would be ruled unconstitutional for its inconsistencies with congress’s constitutional right to do so, even if it violated international law as Constitutional law is supreme.

    Furthermore, (as cited by wikipedia) “The Supreme Court has also ruled in Goldwater v. Carter, 444 U.S. 996 (1979) that the President has the power to unilaterally abrogate a treaty without the consent of Congress or the Senate. The case in question involved President Jimmy Carter's termination of a defense treaty with the Republic of China on Taiwan.”
    Just a note: the above cited treaty was ratified by congress and the then President.

    The Supreme Court has expressed deference to the executive with regard to foreign affairs which would allow the President to abrogate a treaty without congressional consent. This precedent would allow that the President to unilaterally abrogate a treaty and still follow the conditions of the AUMF because it did not specifically spell out that he had to adhere to terms of the treaty.

    All of this is only relevant if what you proffer to be true, that absent specific language in the AUMF which explicitly says to abrogate the treaty, then it is implied that it should be followed.

    I don’t know where in case law you got the following:
    ”If there is a choice, one interpretation consistent and one inconsistent with current law you must go with the interpretation that is consistent”

    …But it does make sense.

    I just don’t think it applies as you can see from my citations; the President is apparently the ultimate arbiter with respect to Treaties. While congress must ratify a treaty and the President sign it for it to become law, the treaty is not held in the same regard as regularly enacted law, and can be legally broken at the President’s discretion.

    So the whole question of illegally breaking the Treaty is apparently moot.
    And since the AUMF did not explicitly say to adhere to the UN charter, he cannot be held responsible for ignoring it.

    Just so you know, I am not married to any particular view or interpretation of this Law. It may seem like it to you, but I’m not. Many times throughout this discussion, you, TM, brambling, highlander, Glenn and others have changed my opinions or educated me to things I did not know before.

    I try to look at it from all perspectives and I see if it fits in with my interpretation or view of the laws. Not because I’m trying to justify the President’s actions, rather because I am trying to see if it possibly defensible, under established laws (though I may wish it wasn’t). I don’t think I could possibly describe to you how much I want this President to go down. I want him held to account for all the despicable, abhorrent, immoral, unethical and illegal things he and his Administration have done.

    In this case, I still can’t see him breaking US law. You may think I’m being blind to your illustrations, but I’m not. I just plainly see them as defensible.

    I hope you are right!

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous7:29 PM

    I must now concede that I was absolutely WRONG with regard to the congressional intent when enacting the AUMF.

    It has been a number of years since the debate so I had forgotten a lot of the acrimony surrounding it. After some more research,, I can unequivocally say that congress fully intended the AUMF to allow the President to utilize force against Iraq, with or without UN consent.

    Many statements are on record expressing this very intent. In fact, some of the opposition’s concerns were specifically that utilizing force (as outlined by the AUMF) unilaterally, would yield very dangerous global consequences. In an act of slight concession, they added the section about continuing diplomatic efforts until they failed. But the AUMF allows the President to make the determination about when those diplomatic efforts were exhausted.

    The only other controversy debated about the AUMF was the concern that the President would use it to invade other nations in the region, as the wording held that a goal was to secure stability in the region. There were fears that the President would next invade Iran, Syria or other neighboring countries.

    Although there was plenty of opposition against the action, the majority of congress voted to enact the AUMF which expressly gave the President authority to use force, and they decided he could go it alone if necessary.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous5:04 PM

    David says:
    It's a shame then that they didn't word the actual law that way. The actual law they all agreed to is very defferential to the UN charter. Maybe they just didn't have the balls to tell the American people that they were going to ignore the UN which was and is very popular in America. That doesn't surprise me one bit.

    Shame though it may be, the AUMF was intended to and does allow it. The original draft was a “blank check” for the President. All he had to do was use force whenever he determined. The amended version had installed a provision that before the President use force, he would have to have exhausted all diplomatic avenues. The President was of course the person who would decide when the diplomatic efforts had failed. These diplomatic efforts were explicitly referring to the process of gaining a UNSC resolution to use force.

    The AUMF was enacted for two main purposes (besides the obvious need to protect America and its interests): 1) To strengthen the hand of the President so he could show the UNSC that the US was speaking in a united voice to assure the resolutions against Iraq be enforced (diplomatically or militarily) and 2) To give the President the Authority to exercise the use of force, should those diplomatic measures fail to assure Iraq’s disarmament.

    I could again recite the sections of the AUMF that spelled out the conditions for the President to meet regarding the diplomatic efforts (under “Presidential Determination
    ”) but that would be yet another exercise in repetition.

    As for other parts of your argument regarding the lack of language explicitly saying to abrogate the UN charter, it was not necessary as it was implicit in the AUMF while maintaining an air of deference the UN. Remember, this AUMF was drafted in order to force the hand of the UNSC, so they didn’t want to be present a posture of disregard for diplomatic efforts, but they wanted to make sure (through Constitutional Authority) that the US would ensure Iraq disarmament.

    It is all in the language—Implicitly and Explicitly

    To continue this rationale, you will find nowhere in the AUMF for September 18, 2001 does is say that the US intends to use force in accordance with the UN Charter or resolutions. We attacked Afghanistan for harboring terrorists. We demolished the country and abolished their government. Surely this does not conform to UN provisions. Afghanistan and the Taliban did not use armed aggression to attack us. Terrorism is an amorphic term and concept, it is not a country. Following your logic, since it does not say to act contrary to UN Charter or resolutions, then it should strictly abide by them. So our attacks on Afghanistan were illegal and the President and Congress are complicit.

    The Following is a small list of quotes made on both the Floor of the House and the Senate while debating the vote on the AUMF. The dates range from October 8 – 14, 2002; two days before the AUMF was signed by the President. You can find all of the debate and all of the language regarding intent within the Senate and House records. There are obviously many, many more. I just wanted to give you a good glimpse at the attitude from just the first several pages:

    HON. GEORGE R. NETHERCUTT, JR.

    Where agreement with the United Nations may fail, we should look to our other regional alliances, seeking common ground and unity of purpose

    But we must not predicate our actions on global opinion. When necessary, the United States must be prepared to act alone.


    Holt In opposition:

    This resolution would give the President a blank check, in the words of my constituents, and would allow him to use Iraq to launch a new military and diplomatic doctrine, a dangerous, unwise doctrine.

    Payne in Opposition:

    That is not an unreasonable question to ask: Is it different if the United States goes alone? Is it different if the United States does it with the United Nations? I am one of those who thinks that we would be much stronger in the future if we go with the United Nations. It does not mean I am turning over the national security to the United Nations.

    Wilson (NM) in favor:

    The joint resolution supports the President's diplomatic efforts to build a coalition to confront Iraq . Iraq has defied resolutions of the UN Security Council with impunity. The President was right to go to the UN and make the case for action against Iraq . In some respects, this current crisis is a test of the UN's continued relevance. If the UN is not willing to act collectively, we will have to build a coalition of states outside of the UN to act. This is, without doubt, a turning point for the United Nations as an institution.

    Serrano in opposition:

    This new doctrine announced by the President that the U.S. has the right to engage in a preemptive strike, which he seeks to implement through this resolution, frightens me and establishes a troubling precedent. This is a doctrine better left unused. It contravenes a half century of developed international law of which the U.S. has been a champion.

    McDermott In opposition:
    If we act alone to achieve regime change, the whole Arab world will wonder, who is next? Our President will become the poster boy for al Qaeda recruiters; and Americans will be less, not more, safe at home and abroad.
    If we pass this resolution, we are setting precedents that we will regret, that America can start preemptive wars and that Congress can turn over authority to start a war to the President
    …Under the terms of this resolution, the United States may attack Iraq solely on the basis of the President's view, and only the President's view, that diplomacy has failed.

    Hayes in favor:
    If we are not prepared to defend ourselves and to defend ourselves alone if need be, if we cannot convince the world that we are unshakeably resolved to do so, then there can be no security for us, no safety to be purchased, no refuge to be found
    …The legislation in front of us gives the President the authority he needs to protect the American people and U.S. interests from Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction while at the same time respecting the prerogatives of Congress. We have the responsibility to act

    Sanchez in opposition:
    By taking unilateral action prior to exhausting all diplomatic efforts, the U.S. would set a dangerous precedent and undermine decades of relative international stability.
    McKeon in favor:
    The true debate is whether or not America should seek permission from the UN before ridding the world of a regional and international danger…
    …While the resolution supports the President's efforts to work with the United Nations, it does not require that the U.S. receive U.N. approval before taking military action against Saddam Hussein

    Ross in favor:
    This resolution authorizes our President to use military action against Iraq as a last resort. He has said that he will continue to work with the U.N. and that he will seek to form a coalition of allies to disarm Iraq , if necessary.
    Our responsibility is clear. We must rise to meet this challenge and pass this resolution so our men and women in the military, our allies across the globe, members of the United Nations, and, yes, even Saddam Hussein himself will know that we are united in our mission to make America safe again.
    Our world has changed, our enemy has changed, and our approach must also change

    Graham in favor:
    People in America need to know the following: this passage is a certainty. Debating is almost over. Action will soon follow.
    Thornberry in favor:
    There are those who seem to think that we should just continue along, waiting for an international consensus or deferring to the United Nations, and thus avoiding having to make hard choices.
    Hostettler in opposition:
    Voting for this resolution not only would set an ominous precedent for using the administration's parameters to justify war against the remaining partners in the ``Axis of Evil,'' but such a vote for preemption would also set a standard which the rest of the world would seek to hold America to and which the rest of the world could justifiably follow.
    Royce in favor:
    Critics say that the administration is not exploring all options. It is exploring options. We may avoid war. What option the President has no interest in, though, and I think this is to his credit, is shirking his responsibility for the defense of our Nation. He certainly is not willing to allow the nations of the United Nations Security Council to dictate the terms by which our Nation is defended, which is what some are calling for
    Waters in opposition:
    Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose this resolution which would authorize the President to use unilateral military force against Iraq…
    …it would be diplomatically and militarily unwise for the United States to initiate a war in the Middle East without the support and participation of a coalition of countries in the region.
    …I am deeply concerned that a unilateral war on Iraq would make Americans more vulnerable to terrorist attacks at home. A unilateral war on Iraq could lead to an increase in anti-American extremism throughout the Muslim world. This could destabilize countries in the Middle East and South Asia. Instead of authorizing a unilateral war, Congress should support the efforts of the United Nations to resume weapons inspections in Iraq I urge Members to oppose unilateral use of America's Armed Forces and give United Nations weapons inspectors an opportunity to do their work. I urge my colleagues to oppose this resolution.

    Senator Allard:
    But if getting U.N. Security Council approval requires us to work under old rules, such as those where palaces are off limits, the world, and those three countries, must know the United States will act without them
    Passing this resolution in no way precludes the United Nations from acting, nor should it lessen the resolve of this administration to gain such support, but I believe a vote on this resolution will show our resolve to the world that we want the United Nations to act. However, if the United Nations is determined to follow the same course it has over the last 10 years, then Saddam Hussein must understand that the United States will act alone.

    Jeffords in opposition:
    Providing the President with authorization at this time for unilateral U.S. military action would undercut U.N. Security Council efforts to disarm Iraq .
    Wellstone in opposition:
    I do not really know what the breakdown is in terms of X percentage this way or that way, but I will say that the people in Minnesota and our country are worried about this issue. They are worried about us going it alone. They are worried about what might happen to our sons and daughters in Iraq . They far prefer we work together with our allies. They far prefer we have international support and that the focus be on disarmament.
    I believe that is the direction in which we should go. That is not what this resolution before us asks us to do. Therefore, I will vote no on this resolution.

    Senator Burns:
    If the United Nations Security Council cannot enforce its own authority and prove itself relevant and effective, then President Bush has no choice but to take whatever action he deems necessary to protect America from avowed enemies.
    Senator Wyden
    There is no question in my mind Saddam Hussein represents a very real threat to this country and to the world, but I do not want to, in the days ahead, compound the problems we already face with Hussein in the region by authorizing a unilateral, preemptive military strike at this time, and that is why I will oppose the resolution.
    Senator Nelson:
    Our hope is that this threat can be dismantled by means less than the use of force, and discussions in the United Nations toward that goal are underway now. But if those efforts in the U.N. are not successful, we cannot sit and do nothing as the danger grows.
    Senator Lieberman (coauthor of amendment to the resolution):
    …While Congress is only able to authorize the President, as Commander in Chief, to take military action, the clear implication that I read into our resolution--but more than that, the clear statement of intention of the President should we face the moment we hope we do not face, when either Saddam does not respond to the U.N. or the U.N. itself refuses to authorize action to enforce its resolutions, then I think the President has made clear, and those of us who are sponsoring the resolution have made clear, that the United States will not go it alone and we will not have to, as a result of the decision to go to the U.N.,
    Senator Clinton
    Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation

    In addition there are numerous headlines in WaPo and NYT which state “Congress gives President Authority to Attack Iraq without UN Support” and the like.
    One other important note, the provisions of the AUMF make clear that prior to or immediately after the President determines to use force, he is to provide justification to the Speaker and President Pro Tempore.
    When action was taken, the Congress did not contest the authorization, justification or manner it which it was done; in fact, it was supported financially and verbally.
    I hope this helps.

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  145. Anonymous8:59 PM

    I guess this argument has been abandoned!

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  146. Anonymous3:56 PM

    HON. GEORGE R. NETHERCUTT, JR.
    Where agreement with the United Nations may fail, we should look to our other regional alliances, seeking common ground and unity of purpose
    But we must not predicate our actions on global opinion. When necessary, the United States must be prepared to act alone


    Wilson (NM) in favor:
    If the UN is not willing to act collectively, we will have to build a coalition of states outside of the UN to act

    McKeon in favor:
    …While the resolution supports the President's efforts to work with the United Nations, it does not require that the U.S. receive U.N. approval before taking military action against Saddam Hussein

    Graham in favor:
    People in America need to know the following: this passage is a certainty. Debating is almost over. Action will soon follow.

    Royce in favor:
    What option the President has no interest in, though, and I think this is to his credit, is shirking his responsibility for the defense of our Nation. He certainly is not willing to allow the nations of the United Nations Security Council to dictate the terms by which our Nation is defended, which is what some are calling for

    Senator Allard in favor:
    if the United Nations is determined to follow the same course it has over the last 10 years, then Saddam Hussein must understand that the United States will act alone

    Senator Burns in favor:
    If the United Nations Security Council cannot enforce its own authority and prove itself relevant and effective, then President Bush has no choice but to take whatever action he deems necessary to protect America from avowed enemies

    Senator Nelson:
    But if those efforts in the U.N. are not successful, we cannot sit and do nothing as the danger grows

    Senator Lieberman in favor:
    when either Saddam does not respond to the U.N. or the U.N. itself refuses to authorize action to enforce its resolutions, then I think the President has made clear, and those of us who are sponsoring the resolution have made clear, that the United States will not go it alone

    You really can’t say that these quotes are anything but the obvious defiance of the UN, if they chose not to follow our lead.

    Can you tell me that the Supreme Court would not see these statements as clear intent to act outside the constraints of the UN?

    You seem to be so hung up on exact wording that you fail to see the implicit meaning. If I was on record as saying, “your life will soon be over when I have the opportunity” and you were murdered, do you think because I didn’t say “I’m going to kill you!” that the threat is not implicit in my statement?

    As I said before, Congress was trying to force the hand of, or bully the UN into taking action. They wanted them to resolve to use force to enforce the other resolutions. The AUMF all but says, UN “shit or get off the pot, cause we’re goin’ with or without you.”

    And just because you don’t see Johnny Cochranesque words: “If the UN don’t comply, you must tell them bye- bye” in the AUMF, doesn’t mean it isn’t implied. And it is all but flat out said by nearly all the congress what this AUMF meant. Those who opposed said exactly what the bill meant, those in favor said exactly what it meant too, just more politically correct. They wanted the UN to back them, they didn’t want to alienate them. The UN would have given more credibility and more financial backing in the effort, but if the UN wouldn’t get on board, we were going anyway.

    Can you quote me any congressman who said that the President violated the terms of the AUMF or US law by taking action?

    I said:
    We attacked Afghanistan for harboring terrorists. We demolished the country and abolished their government. Surely this does not conform to UN provisions.

    David said:
    True but congress never claimed they were acting in violation of the UN charter then either

    They didn’t claim it then, but they were acting in violation of the UN charter. So what difference is there in your claim about Iraq? Same action- different country. Yet, I have not heard you so much as imply that the action in Afghanistan was illegal. You must think it was.

    As you see from my other arguments, I say that congress did claim they would violate the UN charter if the UN would not follow our lead. Actually, you don’t have to go off what I say, you can look at what they say. Read those quotes again carefully.

    Just to further emphasize the argument of congressional intent, I compiled a few more oldie but goodies IN FAVOR of the AUMF resolution, per your request.

    Hyde in favor:
    the security of the United States cannot be held hostage to a failure by the United Nations to act because of a threat of a Security Council veto by Russia, China or France.
    Only clear and direct action of this Congress will send the essential message to the United Nations that the current stalemate must end.


    Kingston in favor:
    Keep in mind America is a sovereign Nation. Unlike the supporters of this amendment, I do not believe that we need to have the U.N. 's permission to defend our own national interests.
    But I do not think the U.N. should interfere with something that is in our national interest
    It is not time to go back to the U.N. for one more resolution. If the U.N. was going to act, they would have done it


    Sununu in favor:
    The resolution we are debating today encourages a diplomatic solution to the threat that Iraq poses to our national security. The President has called on the U.N. to act effectively to enforce Iraq's disarmament and ensure full compliance with Security Council resolutions. But if the U.N. cannot act effectively, this resolution will provide the President with full support to use all appropriate means

    Fletcher in favor:
    The time has come for the U.N. to take decisive action, but we cannot let the U.N. 's inaction keep us from defending our national security

    Turner in favor:
    To meet this threat, we will work with the United Nations , but we will not wait for the United Nations

    Hinojosa :
    If the United Nations decides not to impose additional sanctions or to cooperate, then America should take unilateral action against Iraq within the guidelines of the Constitution.

    Rodgers in favor:
    Retaining American Sovereignty. While the resolution authorizes the United States to work through a U.N. Security Council resolution, no American sovereignty is forfeited. If all efforts fail and the national security of the United States is under direct threat by Iraq , the resolution authorizes the President to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines ``necessary and proper'' in order to defend America.

    Greenwood in favor:
    As a Member of Congress, I must act upon information I possess in a way that most clearly protects our people and our way of life. And what I know is this. Should the U.N. fail in its mission, we will have very little choice but to act.

    Nussle in favor:
    The resolution we are considering makes it clear that America prefers to find solutions together with the United Nations and other international leaders. It also provides authority for the President to use force if diplomatic or other peaceful means are not effective. It preserves America's right to act on its own as we must in self-defense of our nation's interests.

    Dicks in favor:
    I believe that it is important, in the language of our Joint Resolution in Congress, to emphasize that we are determined in this cause: that if these efforts to build an international coalition within the United Nations are not successful, we believe that the United States must still take action

    Feingold
    I also believe and agree, as important and as preferable as U.N. action and multilateral solutions to this problem are, we cannot give the United Nations the ability to veto our ability to counter this threat to our people


    Inhofe in favor:
    We are going to have to give the President the flexibility he needs to protect this Nation. Making the potential use of U.S. military force contingent upon the current deliberations of the U.N. Security Council is absurd. Our national security must not be tied to the actions of the ``mother of all handwringers,'' the United Nations .

    Murray in favor:
    While we welcome the support of our allies and the United Nations , we do not hand them or anyone else the ultimate power to decide America's security demands. Only the United States can determine our interests and what steps are required to defend them.

    Kerry in favor:
    Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies

    Gibbons in favor:
    I support the bipartisan resolution we are currently debating, authorizing the President to use military force if necessary. President Bush is responsible for our country's security, not the United Nations . I will not tie the President's hands by allowing the United Nations to decide when, how, and if we will protect the United States and its citizens

    Barton in favor:
    the fact of the matter is that the Constitution that we swore an oath to defend says we have to protect our great Nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We cannot wait for diplomatic means; we cannot wait for U.N. resolutions that might or might not have an effect in the future.

    Isakson in favor:
    If the U.N. falters or Hussein continues his deception, then the United States must act.

    Wolf in favor:
    We must work to exhaust all peaceful options to enforce the will of the United Nations in disarming Iraq . But if those peaceful means fail to accomplish that goal, America must stand up for freedom and security, as history has witnessed our great Nation doing in past causes to fight evil, and forcefully remove Saddam Hussein and the threat he brings.

    Green in favor:
    the United States is prepared to fight for the safety of our Nation, regardless of whether our allies choose to stand with us. It is our job to protect our people, not the U.N. 's.

    Sensenbrenner in favor:
    Further, we will send a message to the United Nations that failure to enforce its international agreements will only lead it down a path of irrelevance and ineffectiveness that the League of Nations went down over 60 years ago.
    if disarmaments through diplomacy and inspections fails, and it can only fail at Saddam Hussein's own choosing, this resolution shows that Congress and America have the resolve to protect those who live in freedom from the dangers of tyrants.
    There was an amendment proposed by Congresswoman Lee to force the President to have UN approval; it failed.


    I know you have said you wanted to see comments from those in favor, but why is it that you disregard those who were in opposition? They are law makers and their opinion of how the AUMF can be legally applied should hold substantial weight. You know when people are supporting a law, they accentuate the positive, and generally steer clear of saying all of the possible effects of the law. However, in this case, I think there is plenty of compelling information contained in the cited statements to make it obvious.

    Just one more reminder from the mouth of Mr. Sensenbrenner:

    There was an amendment proposed by Congresswoman Lee to force the President to have UN approval; it failed.

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