Tuesday, February 14, 2006

Why Ann Coulter matters

(updated below)

Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds accuses me today of "degrad(ing) the blogosphere" because I wrote a post at Crooks & Liars observing that Reynolds had done nothing to denounce the violence-advocating and epithet-spewing remarks of Ann Coulter at last week’s highly prestigious Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), and I encouraged C&L readers to e-mail Reynolds and ask why this was. As I documented here, the CPAC is one of the most important Republican events of the year, and its invited speakers along with Coulter included Dick Cheney, Ken Mehlman, Bill Frist, Newt Gingrich and Reynolds himself.

As I explained in the C&L post, my belief that Reynolds has an obligation to either denounce or defend Coulter’s comments is largely based on the fact that Reynolds routinely lectures Democrats on what he claims is their obligation to denounce "extremists on the Left" – even when the extremists in question are totally fringe and inconsequential figures who have nothing to do with Democrats, and – unlike Coulter here – don’t have huge throngs of followers and aren’t invited to be the featured speaker at the most important political events of the year. I specifically cited this post from Reynolds self-righteously taking Democrats to task for their grave moral failure in remaining silent about that oh-so-significant, long-standing icon of the Democratic Party, Ward Churchill.

In that regard, compare Reynolds’ Churchill sermon to Democrats ("I keep hearing that there's a silent majority on the Left that doesn't agree with these things. I keep waiting for it to stop being silent."), with Reynolds’ excuse for his silence about Coulter from his post today ("I tend mostly to ignore Coulter."). Isn’t that the very definition of a double standard?

Republicans have been playing this game for years. They wildly inflate the importance of fringe, extremist figures and then -- every time one of those individuals makes an intemperate remark or comment that can be wrenched out-of-context and depicted as some sort of demented evil -- they demand that Democrats ritualistically parade before the cameras and either condemn those individuals or be branded as someone who is insufficiently willing to stand up to the extremists "in their party."

If that’s the game that is going to be played - and we’ve been playing exactly that tired, corrupt game for several years now – it ought to at least be two-sided.

Unlike, say, Ward Churchill, Ann Coulter is not some fringe, obscure figure for the right-wing crowd. To the contrary, she is one of the most popular and influential pro-Bush speakers around, which is exactly why she was invited to be one of the featured speakers at one of the most significant conservative events of the year. And Glenn Reynolds, just like Coulter, was also an invited speaker at this event.

So, Coulter isn’t just the leader of a substantial faction in Reynolds’ political party (although she is that), but they also have the nexus of both being invited speakers at the same event. Put simply, Coulter’s importance is infinitely greater than Ward Churchill’s (or Harry Belafonte's or Barbra Streisand's or any other left-wing bogeyman), and Reynolds’ connection to Coulter is far more substantial than all of those Democrats who never even heard of Churchill before and yet, according to the sermonizing Reynolds, nonetheless somehow had a compelling obligation to denounce him.

The comments Coulter made during her speech were reprehensible in the extreme. And those comments prompted not condemnation from the audience but its opposite -- what one observer described as a "boisterous ovation." Certainly under the denuncation standards that have been applied to Democrats for years, every attendee at that event, and anyone pledging featly to the "conservative" cause, has an obligation to say what their views are of Coulter generally and to address specifically why she was invited to be a featured speaker and why she plays such a prominent role, and commands such popularity, in the Bush movement. Although her comments were extreme, they are neither new nor surprising, as she has a long and documented history of urging violence against her political opponents and making comments quite similar to those she made at the CPAC.

I wrote my post urging that Reynolds be asked about his conspicuous silence concerning Coulter only once: (a) several days elapsed after Coulter’s speech and Reynolds said nothing to condemn it, and (b) I began receiving e-mails pointing to posts written by Reynolds where he piously demanded that Democrats not remain "silent" in the face of intemperate remarks by far less important figures than Coulter.

Republicans have spent the last five years courting the most extreme and radical elements of their party, while the media allows them to present a mainstream and moderate face to the public. While we were given John McCain, Rudy Guliani, and Arnold Schwarzenegger as the prime-time speakers at the GOP Convention, Republicans cowtow in the dark to figures like James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Coulter. It is time that they either embrace those alliances in the open or repudiate them.

And oh, just incidentally, if you are a person who finds Coulter’s remarks reprehensible and believe that they ought to be condemned by decent people, guess what that makes you, according to Reynolds? That's right - a "lefty" ("SO I GET HOME AND FIND MY INBOX full of complaints from lefties that I've been "silent" about Ann Coulter's remarks on Friday" and "The lefties seem mostly upset about her use of the term "raghead").

Now, having said all of that, Reynolds’ condemnation of Coulter, once he was finally prodded into making it, is quite potent and clear. He says that Coulter inflames the divide between Muslims and the West and therefore, because winning hearts and minds is our most important objective in the war on terrorism, Coulter is "objectively pro-terrorist." I can’t quibble with that.

But that leads to a rather glaring question, which is this: why is someone so extreme, hateful, and destructive so wildly popular among Bush followers; why is she continuously treated as a respectable and important figure among "conservatives"; and why have so few of the prominent Republicans who participated at the CPAC not condemned her, ever? If one is a supporter of Bush, as Reynolds is, aren't those rather pressing questions?

UPDATE: Joe at Dartblog has this long, impassioned defense of Instapundit along with an ostensible reply to this post (which Instapundit promptly links to without replying to this post himself), and what's so amazing about Joe's post is that he comprehensively covers every single aspect of this issue except for the only two points I made:

(1) I did not argue that Reynolds has an obligation to denounce Coulter's comments on the ground that I think that everyone in the world has the obligation to jump up and denounce every repugnant comment. I argued that Reynolds has this obligation here because Reynolds himself has previously argued for that standard and applied it to Democrats -- by, for instance, condemning Democrats who failed to denounce the super-significant, iconic "Democrat" Ward Churchill.

Thus, with regards to Reynolds, I'm not arguing for a standard that imposes an obligation on everyone to denounce offensive comments. I'm arguing that Reynolds has that obligation himself because he imposes this obligation on others. I think that point was very clearly expressed in the post, but please - anyone else who wants to defend Instapundit here, recognize and address that point, since it's the whole point of the post.

(2) If people want to argue, as Joe did, that Coulter is just some fringe, irrelevant figure whom Republicans detest, then it really is incumbent on them to explain why millions of Bush followers buy her books, why they cheer on her hateful, violence-advocating rants, why she is one of the most featured pro-Bush pundits on Fox, and why she is one of the featured speakers at the most important conservative event of the year. Coulter has a vast and enthusiastic following among Bush followers and is treated accordingly. If she's "objectively pro-terrorist," as Reynolds claim, shouldn't this not be the case?

UPDATE II: Contrary to Reynolds' claim that he "tend(s) mostly to ignore Coulter," and contrary to his defenders' insistence in the Comments section that he has a long and clear history of denouncing her, what he actually has -- as this Comment from Y.G. Brown demonstrates -- is a pattern of linking to Coulter and/or promoting her latest ventures, such as her blog. So, here we have someone promoting and linking to the ideas of a reprehensible hate-monger, who simultaneously lectures Democrats about how they are morally shameful for failing to denounce obscure, irrelevant extremists.

This is a real microcosm of the game many Bush followers have been playing for a long time -- singling out irrelevant, supposedly "leftist" extremists and demanding that Democrats attack them, while tacitly endorsing and forming alliances with their own far more influential and significant extremists. As these facts demonstrate, Reynolds is a perfect illustration of that one-sided game, but it's quite pervasive.

252 comments:

  1. Anonymous2:59 PM

    Glenn Reynolds is a disgusting hypocrite and he's mad that you pointed that out. He loves to act like he's some moderate, respectful guy, but then he hangs out with and associates with the thugs and haters and doesn't want to be called on that. He wants the support of the extremists and wants to seem moderate at the same time.

    In that regard, come to think of it, he's a little microcosm of the Republicans.

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  2. Anonymous3:02 PM

    Reynolds likes to paint people no-one's ever heard of until he blogs on them like Ward Churchill as "the face of the Democratic Party".

    This is a weird form of projection because it's obvious to me that people like Reynolds are definitely "the face of the Republican party" - dishonest, self-promoting, self-aggrandizing, disingenuous, mendacious.

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  3. Anonymous3:07 PM

    Great posts and please, please, please point out that the new manufactured outrage on the right is over the remarks Al Gore made at a conference in Saudi Arabia wherein he said that the US had not treated Muslims well since 9/11 and that torture of detainees, etc was deplorable. Now the right-wing noise machine is all agog over Gore's truthtelling and wants an apology. Presumably, had Gore chosen that forum to call Muslims "ragheads" all would have been well. As it stands, he's accused of siding with the "enemy".

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  4. Anonymous3:07 PM

    Give it up Glenn. Do you think there's a place for people like you in the modern Republican Party? It's a movement baby, and you're simply a speed bump.

    Intellectual honesty? It's for suckers who lose elections.

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  5. Anonymous3:10 PM

    It's much like the "two minutes hate" in 1984. Coulter has a purpose: to pander to the worst animalistic violent feelings of revenge and physical retribution that gives people an ego boost. It just feels good to act "macho" and threaten your enemies with severe pain.

    It takes a lot to renounce this cycle of violence. See MLK and Ghandi for examples.

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  6. Anonymous3:16 PM

    I wrote Glenn Reynolds off years ago as a fake libertarian.

    The kind of "libertarian" who loves huge government and doesn't care about the economy or the Bill of Rights.

    Glenn's a flake and a sophist, IMO.

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  7. Anonymous3:20 PM

    The sad truth is people are governed more by their fears than by reason. People come late to courage. Demonizing the outsider is as american as apple pie. When it works politically, few will challenge it for fear of being viewed as sympathetic to them.

    Eisenhower was the last to recognize McCarthy for what he was. We are in a similar spin cycle. At what point everything comes clean in the wash is hard to say, but mud must be called mud

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  8. Just remember this handy acronym, Glenn:

    IOKIYAR

    That one mnemonic goes a long way towards explaining many otherwise peculiar facets of current political behaviour.

    Cheers,

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  9. Powerful. I'd like to point out that mrs. glenn over at her blog (dr. helen) seems to have visited the holocaust museum recently and discovered that leftists are really nazis. Read it and weep for your country. And please do ask glenn about this, or is his wife just a "fringe" member of his family?

    aimai

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  10. Republicans have been playing this game for years. They wildly inflate the importance of fringe, extremist figures....

    And also try to paint moderate and grass-roots groups as being "far left extremists" (albeit, to them, perhaps anyone left of Joe McCarthy is indeed "far left extremist" -- even if such constitutes a majority of the U.S. population -- so I guess you could say it's just a matter of perspective....).

    Cheers,

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  11. Anonymous3:34 PM

    Well, I do think that the comments here by right wingers, so far, demonstrate that Glenn is getting somewhere. As usual the attacks from the right are adhominum attacks and petty, not substantial. I support Glenn's work and commend him. He is starting to help us all "decode" the right wing mentality and those on the right would rather we didn't do this..

    Here is a link to an article about Ted Rall, the cartoonist attacked for his cartoon about Rumsfield and lack of body armor for soldiers. He asks us to vote on whether we think he should sue Ann Coulter. He is seriously considering it and I think if is a good idea. Evidently he raised $6000 in one day so far. Ann Coulter is where she is because she is part of the plan on the right to keep us all divided and the hate flowing. Diversion and Division.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001995932

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  12. Anonymous3:36 PM

    Keeping telling it like it is Glenn, you're spot on with your analysis. The light of reason will win over the darkness that has permeated our culture.

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  13. Anonymous3:41 PM

    What really gets my knickers in a twist--and there are so many things in this debate that do--is that if a commoner like myself had access to a live microphone in front of thousands of people, including members of the press, and said about the President, the Vice-President, and/or any Supreme Court judge, the same things Coulter said in this venue and others, I'd be reported to the SS and hauled off in plastic handcuffs. The hypocrisy of AC and those who defend her (or have to be goaded into not defending her, as in the case of the law professor from Tennessee with way too much free time on his hands for such an august member of the leisure class) is astounding, and frightening. AC was selected and carefully groomed and financed to be a bombthrower, and she is leading the charge into fascism, U.S. style. You may consider that an inflammatory charge, but consider her words carefully before you attack mine.

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  14. Anonymous3:47 PM

    What's so ironic about Coulter's "raghead" comment and even moreso Reynolds dismissal of those offended as "lefties", is that it illustrates that Bushites can't remember their own fantasy that we ("we") are supposed to the great allies of the little brown people, the deliverers of Democracy and Freedom. They can't keep up the self-aggrandizing delusions of themselves as courageous idealists, they consistently allow their essential racism, tribalism, and inner-bedwetters to show.

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  15. Anonymous3:52 PM

    speaking of hypocrisy -- look up the video of him on that CNN show a couple days ago, where he's chastising the "MSM" for not printing the Danish Muslim cartoons. The interviewer asks him if he's run them on his own website. His dissembling is hilarious: he doesn't have the rights, they're not his intellectual property, he doesn't have permission -- but he HAS linked to them!

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  16. Anonymous3:56 PM

    Reynolds is a typical Republican--ostensibly all about "limited government" and a "free market," he has no qualms about drawing a healthy salary and benefits package from a taxpayer-funded institution.

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  17. Anonymous3:59 PM

    You're forgetting all about Rush Limbaugh. He's every bit the charlatan that Coulter is -- with vastly wider reach -- and he is worshipped by the GOP.

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  18. Anonymous4:02 PM

    This, apparently, is Glenn's response to your "Ward Churchill doesn't matter to the Left" argument:

    Various lefty readers email to say that Ward Churchill is not the authentic face of the Left.

    I wish I agreed with that. But, sadly, he is its very image today.

    When Ted Kennedy can make an absurd and borderline-traitorous speech on the war, when Michael Moore shares a VIP box with the last Democratic President but one, when Barbara Boxer endorses a Democratic consultant/blogger whose view of American casualties in Iraq is "screw 'em," well, this is the authentic face of the Left. Or what remains of it.


    So the idea is that Michael Moore is of the same ilk as Ward Churchill, and as such, makes Ward Churchill a representative of the Democratic party, at least as much as Ann Coulter represents the GOP. Why? Well, Michael Moore sat in a VIP box with Clinton. This is unquestionably just as vile as Coulter's racist screeds.

    And Barbara Boxer is just as bad because, apparently, she posted on Daily Kos a few times. Never mind that Glenn over-simplifies the whole US mercenaries controversy from a few years back to say that "Markos' view of American casualties in Iraq is "screw 'em," (which is a pretty neat trick since it gets our troops under the net of the slur as well). No, Boxer obviously wants to side with those who view American deaths as a trifle. Even though Sen. Boxer didn't address Kos' remarks at all, for which Kos later apologized for, she is a threat to America which should be roundly condemned.

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  19. Excellent post. Looking at Reynolds' "Ward Chruchill is the face of The Left" post never ceases to amaze in its mendacity, and his rank double standards compound the matter. I don't think Ann Coulter represents something called "the Right" either, but she's a hell of a lot more influential that the Ward Churchills of the world.

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  20. Anonymous4:04 PM

    Who the hell is this Ward Cleaver fellow, anyway?

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  21. I actually gave Malkin some credit at my blog for scolding Coulter for her "raghead" comment. Then I remembered that Coulter also accused Gary Trudeau, Ted Rall, and the New York Times of mocking the Holocaust - which, just so happens Malkin (and as far as I know) the rest didn't denounce.

    I don't expect people to go around denouncing whatever asinine comments that get made. But if you start pontificating about how you police extremism on your side and then don't - you deserve to be blasted for your hypocrasy.

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  22. This reminds me of two things. One, Instahack going after Ward Churchill and tying him to the Dems is like Michelle Malking going after a high school student and tying him to the Dems.

    Two, to quote an exchange between Barack Obama and the press:

    Press: I was wondering if you could react to...
    Obama: What, did Harry Belafonte say something?

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  23. Anonymous4:06 PM

    Watch it Glenn, your starting to peer into the realm of quantum politics, where two things can exist peacefully at once. If you observe them however, they may just rip a hole in the time-space continuum.

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  24. Oh my, Glenn, the Bush Cult has been living in the luxury of double standards so long that they just won’t know what to do when someone actually calls them on it.

    Poor Insta-wanker, you actually got him to call Ann Coulter ‘objectively pro-terrorist’? Wow. He’s in for trouble now, not only from Ann, but from the whole cadre of Malkin crusaders against newspapers of this country for not publishing anti-Muslim cartoons.

    Their actions were meant to polarize, just like Ann’s, is Reynolds calling them all ‘objectively pro-terrorist' too? It reads like a Who’s Who of the right blogosphere.

    Barbara O’brien gave us this link to Malkin’s crusade which she rightly termed “foaming at the mouth hair on fire crazy.”

    And if Reynold’s really wants to condemn racism, why doesn’t he start himself, by stopping to hawk those racist T-shirts that celebrate diversity - they are on the same page with a shirt proclaiming Coulter’s famous quote about “invading their countries killing their leaders and converting them to Christianity” and there is Glenn Reynolds (and his wife) lending their good name to selling this crap.

    Let’s see him defend these double standards. Ha!

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  25. Malkin is easy to refute, since her methodology is so ridciculous.

    In the post Glenn linked at C&L, Malkin links to the guy from News Blog who does engage in race-bating which he should be taken to task for, as an example of how "the left" is worse than "the right".

    here's the thing though, America knows who Ann Coulter is. How many have ever heard of Steve Guillard?

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  26. Anonymous4:09 PM

    Glen

    Coulter is entertainment by exaggeration and satire. She is not nearly as over the top as Michael Moore, who disguises his over the top arguments in the form of news and documentaries.

    Its called free speech and comic relief, with a message. Get a sense of humor or get over it.

    Says the "Dog"

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  27. Ann Coulter is SA. Glenn Reynolds is SS. The thugs make the more sophisticated operators look civilized.

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  28. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Glenn, come on. Reynolds did vote for Bush in '04, but he isn't a Republican. He was on the Gore '88 team. He's pro-choice, pro-gay and pro-science. His disgust with what his party -- the Democrats -- has become is genuine, and shared by many others of his type. (His lectures to Democrats should be read as a plea for the party in which he actually belongs to snap out of it.) Want them back, folkslike Reynolds? Then attacking him and causing a flood of nasty emails from left-wing sites like C&L is not the best place to begin.

    I'm totally with Reynolds on this one, and don't like what you did. It was rude and uncalled for; not the action of someone supposedly interested in promoting cross-partisan, serious discussion.

    I have read Reynolds dissing Coulter, or Robertson, or other right-wing nutjobs on innumerable occasions. He has publicly criticized the excesses committed against the Clintons. His voice almost always, however, is calmer and less shrill than most other poltical partisans online --left or right -- and you might be mistaking his mild-mannered approach for failure to reject that which you both believe should be rejected.

    And it must be said, I find your piety on this issue hypocritcal, given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore. Who, it should be noted, was given a place of honor seated next to a former President, Carter, at the '04 DNC convention.

    If the Democrats are going to embrace Moore in that fashion, it is at least as reasonable to conclude that they find his views to be within their fold -- and to hold them accountable for those views -- as it is to suspect the GOP embraces Coulter and Dobson because Republicans don't publicly disavow them as much or as strongly as you think proper.

    Finally, Reynolds did link to a denunciation of Coulter shortly after the most recent of her sickening comments. He just did. And he has dissed her before. You should at least acknowledge that he has.

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  29. Anonymous4:15 PM

    What I really love is the conservative idea of satire which is basically hate-speech that's been identified. Then it becomes satire.

    It's odd, then, that Ann herself chooses satire yet points to her hundreds of "footnotes" in her cute little fluffy books as proof of her scholarly mein -- an attempt (a failed one, but an attempt none the less) at the same kind of documentation that even the dangerous Michael Moore uses!

    But, again, intellectual consistency isn't exactly a conservative trait. That's satire for you!

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  30. Anonymous4:16 PM

    Coulter, Reynolds, Hinderaker - there's really no difference among them. They are hypocrites, they are utterly without intellectual integrity, and they pimp ceaselessly for torture, U.S. imperialism and White House criminality.

    The fact that ANY of these three disgraces retains even a shred of credibility in the mainstream media is itself the most damning indictment of the mainstream media I can imagine.

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  31. Anonymous4:17 PM

    What else would you expect from Blogaganda.com?

    It's a part of the right-wing wankosphere.com, just like SlimeMachine.com.

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  32. Anonymous4:19 PM

    Well, that's refreshingly dishonest, hypathia. Reynold's holds the Democrats responsible for a non-Democrat like Ward Churchill but that's OK, because, beyond the facts, he was a Democrat 20 years ago?

    Makes sense.

    But Glenn, who made an exact analogy over the hypocrisy of such things, is the one who is being unfair and rude?

    Pass the smelling salts!

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  33. Anonymous4:19 PM

    I'm trying to remember when it was that I saw Ward Churchill on the cover of Time Magazine. I got nothing. Doesn't seem to have had much of a career on the cable talk shows either, come to think of it.

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  34. Anonymous4:22 PM

    Glenn Reynolds wife links approvingly to a blogger who has pictures of Ann Coulter at CPAC.

    I guess only half of the family pretty much ignores Ann Coulter.

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  35. Hypatia,
    Please point me to a link that shows Michael Moore *ever* calling for the death of *any* american of any political persuasion? Please point me to a valid link showing Michael Moore *ever* doing or saying anything remotely close to what Coulter does in terms of using eliminationist rhetoric on his political opponents? Sure, Moore sat with Carter at the convention but so what? What *actual* crime has he committed--even what *social solecism* has he committed other than opposing--on the basis of his political beliefs and his well known *catholic* religious beliefs particular policies of the current administration. Its not only legal to be a committed political actor, to make speeches, to urge people to vote, to make films, to publish the actual words of soldiers in the field--you might even find those things meritorious. I know that the ery words "michael moore" are shorthand for all that is evil in republican eyes but I have yet to see a single, verifiable, sample of anything moore has done that isn't simply lese majeste. Despite bush's attempts to make lese majeste illegal, it still isnt in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    aimai

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  36. Anonymous4:22 PM

    On February 10, Instapundit Instapundit linked to this. If that isn't a put down of Coulter -- and he didn't hear her remarks because all he did at that convention was briefly man a booth pushing his latest book -- I don't know what would be.

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  37. Anonymous4:23 PM

    Heh, this is pretty funny: Reynolds seems to think that Coulter's "raghead" remark equates somehow with some people's pet name for him, Instacracker.

    What a guy!

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  38. Anonymous4:25 PM

    For all those who consider Insta-Glen a disgrace to the legal profession, count your blessings: At least he's not somebody's doctor.

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  39. Anonymous4:27 PM

    Wait, didn't Insta-Glen "ustabee" a Libertarian, or make some other claim to non-partisanship?

    Glenn may assume we're all Ward Churchills, but I won't return the slight to say that all Bush Apologists are intellectually-dishonest shills.

    Wait, scratch that last part...

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  40. Anonymous4:27 PM

    Enjoy it now. These doomsday cult ChimpCo lovers are going to stop taking you on in public once they realize that you keep handing them their asses.

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  41. And it must be said, I find your piety on this issue hypocritcal, given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore. Who, it should be noted, was given a place of honor seated next to a former President, Carter, at the '04 DNC convention.

    Has Michael Moore advocated physical violence and the murder of his domestic political opponents? If so, show me the link and I will vigorously denounce him for that. That, to me, is a fundamental line that cannot be crossed. Ann Coulter crosses it routinely and with glee, while the throngs of self-identified conservatives cheer her wildly. There are no Democrats or Democratic allies who do that, at least to my knowledge.

    And the cheapest political trick in the world is pretending that obvious partisans like Reynolds are really just disaffected Democrats and that this all shows how Democrats have wondered off into the extreme fringes - the Zell Miller shtick. Reynolds was invited to speak at the same event with Cheney, Mehlman, Frist and Coulter for a reason - they didn't do a random drawing. He praises them, links to them, and speaks with them because he's one of them - his refusal to admit that only worsens his intellectual corruption, in my view.

    One other part of your comment which reflects a truly misugided tactic - People act like Democrats are this lost political party with no support except for a few freaks on the coasts. Do you block out that George Bush received fewer votes in 2000 than Al Gore, and, as a wartime President, barely beat one of the most politically inept candidates ever in 2004? On top of all the other propaganda, so many Bush follwers have come to embrace this glorious myth that Bush won two consecutive 1972-like landslides and that Democrats are this hopeless and crushed political party which has lost the vast bulk of the country - and therefore, we constantly hear these lectures about how Democrats better changed or they're going to remain marginalized losers forever.

    Shouldn't basic facts prevent people from coming and spouting that premise and then doing these bizzare triumphilist dances where they act like the vast bulk of the country supports Republicans? It doesn't. Just go look at elections and current polls.

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  42. On February 10, Instapundit Instapundit linked to this. If that isn't a put down of Coulter -- and he didn't hear her remarks because all he did at that convention was briefly man a booth pushing his latest book -- I don't know what would be.

    So linking to someone else's condemnation (without approval) is the same as condemning someone? He links to stuff all the time that is repugnant and then when called on it, people say - as a defense - that just because he links to something doesn't mean he adopts it.

    But we can throw that principle away whenever it suits him to claim that he actually DOES adopt in its entirety whatever posts he links to? Does he adopt in its entirety only this post that he linked to without comment, or all posts that he links to without comment?

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  43. Every leftwing blog and commentator should get together and demand the same thing of Ann; If you support the policies of George Bush, show it. Join the frickin' army. Go to Iraq yourself. Take the heat. Or shut up! Anybody can act bravely when they're asking someone else to lay their life on the line.

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  44. I posted my comment before seeing Aimai's comment re: Moore, which I agree with.

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  45. Hypatia:

    And it must be said, I find your piety on this issue hypocritcal, given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore. Who, it should be noted, was given a place of honor seated next to a former President, Carter, at the '04 DNC convention.

    Two words: "Seven minutes". Perhaps you could elucidate on the reasons for your distaste for Michael Moore.

    But, just to clear up a few facts (and slap down some RW "talking points" spin), Michael Moore was not an "honored" guest at the Democratic convention (I wouldn't think it all that untoward if he wasn't ignored so studiously by the Democratic pawers-that-be)). He had journalistic credentials, and it was Carter's decision (or his staffs, can't remember) to bring him in from the hall into Carter's box, not the DNC's. If you're going to argue your points, you really ought to start from a factual basis.

    Cheers,

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  46. Anonymous4:35 PM

    On September 13, 2001 Reynolds described Coulter as forthing at the mouth. For him, that is very strong language.

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  47. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Quite right. Coulter is most definitely not fringe. She is, in reality, the heart and soul of the Republican party. It's her party. She bought it. She owns it. And Reynolds is just another schmuck member paying dues. I know he'd like to think of himself as a true representative of the party, but when America thinks GOP, they think Ann Coulter.

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  48. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Quite right. Coulter is most definitely not fringe. She is, in reality, the heart and soul of the Republican party. It's her party. She bought it. She owns it. And Reynolds is just another schmuck member paying dues. I know he'd like to think of himself as a true representative of the party, but when America thinks GOP, they think Ann Coulter.

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  49. Anonymous4:39 PM

    Quite right. Coulter is most definitely not fringe. She is, in reality, the heart and soul of the Republican party. It's her party. She bought it. She owns it. And Reynolds is just another schmuck member paying dues. I know he'd like to think of himself as a true representative of the party, but when America thinks GOP, they think Ann Coulter.

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  50. Hypatia:

    [to Glenn]: ... given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore.

    Maybe I missed it, but could you provide a link to this alleged "public defense" of Michael Moore? TTBOMK, Glenn hasn't wasted much time doing such type things and tends to stick to the issues. So if you could enlighten us as to where Glenn's been secretly backing the Michael Moore Fan Club, I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks,

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous4:43 PM

    The left will make more progress against Coulter by treating her ---loudly and often --- as laughable rather than dangerous. She merits our ridicule, not our wrath.

    Plus -- it will bug her a lot more to be mocked than to be debated or ignored. Bullies hate to be laughed at.

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  52. Anonymous4:45 PM

    Who is Ward Churchill? Seriously. I read a lot of "crazy" liberal blogs and listen to liberal talk radio daily (AAR) and I've never heard of this person. Damn! I hate not being in with the in-crowd!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Hypatia:

    [to Glenn]: ... given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore.

    Maybe I missed it, but could you provide a link to this alleged "public defense" of Michael Moore? TTBOMK, Glenn hasn't wasted much time doing such type things and tends to stick to the issues. So if you could enlighten us as to where Glenn's been secretly backing the Michael Moore Fan Club, I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks,

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous4:45 PM

    glenn your a mad-dog in an unlocked butcher shop- man oh man do the wingers not like the way things are going.....when smart people like you start to take them apart, and a political wave seems to be building up, and their avatar big dick cheney is now reduced to a laugh-line, all they can do is simper about how unfair everything is....ive been having some fun with wingers on their own turf lately, and its so fine to see the worm finally turning. keep tearing em up !

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  55. TTBOMK, Glenn hasn't wasted much time doing such type things and tends to stick to the issues. So if you could enlighten us as to where Glenn's been secretly backing the Michael Moore Fan Club, I'd appreciate it.

    Hypatia's description is totally misleading. It makes it sound like I agree with or defend Moore's views, something I have never expressed, as she well knows.

    I objected to Chris Matthews saying that OBL, in his last video, sounded like MM, because Matthews - like so many commentators that weekend who were doing it overtly - were trying to say that anyone opposed to the war in Iraq or who criticizes Bush's terrorism policies is basically the equivalent of bin Laden.

    If Chris Matthews went on Hardball tonight and started saying, with no evidence, that Moore was a pedophile, I'd object to that, too. To Hypatia, that would mean that I am engaged in a "public defense" of Michael Moore, along with everything that that (falsely) implies.

    Yeah, I think that even people I disagree with politically shouldn't be smeared by being equated with Osama bin Laden. How socialist of me.

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  56. Anonymous4:50 PM

    Instapundit hardly gave Coulter the smackdown you credit him with. He objected that she used "raghead" in a fashion that alienated people we want to win over, but the fact she said it is fine with him (as someone who lives in the south, I feel safe in saying many more people call themselves "cracker" than call themselves ragheads). Nor does he object to her remarks about poisoning Justice Stevens, etc. I'm not impressed.
    -Fraser

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  57. aimai:

    I know that the ery words "michael moore" are shorthand for all that is evil in republican eyes...

    Uh, yeah. I think Glenn just did a big post on this. In fact, right here. Michael Moore did the unpardonable sin of dissing the Preznit, and doing it successfully and publicly. And if dissing the Preznit isn't the most heinous deadly sin, I don't know what is....

    Cheers,

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  58. Anonymous4:52 PM

    Ann Coulter's a satirist, but Michael Moore's anti-American?

    Jonah Goldberg's last noble act was to fire Coulter from the NR Online, for being embarrassingly shrill and palpably un-serious. For all the drivel he's produced since then, including his pathetic attempt to spar with a Mideast expert like Juan Cole, I will always credit him for that.

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  59. Anonymous5:00 PM

    In the last couple of years, Coulter has gone crazy. She used to be a fairly witty writer, but has gotten so out there that she refuses to let editors touch her pieces, and because of this has been dropped from many newspapers.

    I mean, she used to be more of a Limbaugh type, and I used to read her, but she has really gotten weird these days.

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  60. Anonymous5:02 PM

    Ann Coulter is reprehensible in one way; Michael Moore in another. And I repeat: if it is accurate to say the GOP embraces Coulter (or Dobson, or whomever) for a purported failure of some of them to denounce her as widely and strongly as you like, then it is also ok for people to accuse the Democrats of embracing Michael Moore by virtue of seating him prominently at the '04 DNC convention and failing to publicly repudiate his extreme views. (Aimai, thinks Moore is just swell, only a good Catholic boy. I guess I'll just go around to right sites and use him/her as an example of how Democrats feel about Moore -- I mean, I've seen no one disagree with Aimai.)

    Glenn Reynolds is a mild-mannered blogger. There are some of his views that are in accord with the right, and others that are not. He has been unstinting in his opposition to Bush in the area of science, such as the bioethicist Leon Kass whom Bush so loves and has on his Council. Reynolds is pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-gun and doesn't like Bush on all kinds of domestic issues.

    Again: he has sharply criticized Ann Coulter, and did so well before this "prodding" Glenn rather arrogantly thinks is necessary before Reynolds will speak up about her, such as when two days after 9/11 Reynolds said she was "frothing at the mouth."

    But fine. Y'all want to dismiss him as a false Democrat, and others also want to say he is also no respectable libertarian. Well, that is a bit much from folks who have been on a roll (justifiably) denouncing Republicans/conservatives for defining dissenters out of their ranks. Litmus tests and purge mentality apparently infect you all, too. If someone voted for Bush in '04, and doesn't share every bit of criticism directed at him, that person is, by definition, no true Democrat/liberal/libertarian.

    Got it.

    So, let's let this attempt to have a civil and respectful, cross-partisan discusison continue; it is going so well.

    ReplyDelete
  61. And don't forget about everyone getting upset over the 2004 campaign event where Whoopie Goldberg made her "Bush" joke.

    Too bad so many Democrats backed away from that "free speech" issue.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Arne,
    is your name the first ever combination of swedish and tibetan?

    I notice that hypatia still hasn't answered the basic question which is
    what has michael moore actually done that makes him in any way the moral or social equivalent of ann coulter? In this I find the whole right wing perspective really self defeating because they seem to believe their own propaganda. DailyKos isn't a hotbed or stalinist/left wing lunacy its just a loosely knit group of sometimes sarcastic grass roots democratic activists and would be activists. Hillary Clinton isn't a wild eyed stalinist/hitlerian lesbian she's an ordinary upper class mother and senator with ordinary midwestern episcopalian values. A liberal is a person who believes in liberal and progressive social policies generally including a libertarian stance of personal freedom and a slightly more progressive stance on economic freedom for individuals as opposed to corporations. Michael Moore is just a guy who has left of center political views and an active ability to organize and discuss them. MoveOn. org is not a fascist-fringe group but a centrist political action group. So just calling people "liberal" or aligning them with these other indivduals and groups is only scary to other far right hysterics. To the rest of us its just not an insult.

    aimai

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  63. Anonymous5:10 PM

    Moreover, what do self-styled "conservatives" these days think actually sets them apart from liberals?

    They certainly tax and spend like liberals. They favor a strong central government like liberals. They think you can engineer a good society with military force like (some, mainly Marxists!) liberals.

    If you abandon your principles whenever you think circumstances call for it, you don't have any principles at all.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous5:10 PM

    Glenn,

    Come on, you really didn’t compare the offenses of Ann Coulter to Ward Churchill or at least the need for their statements to be addressed by corresponding political sides within the blogsphere? Isn’t that like comparing the career of George Carlin to that of Carrot Top? Ward Churchill considers himself an academic whereas Ann Coulter is a columnist & satirist, kind of like a literate Maureen Dowd, but easier to follow & w/ less ramblings. Everyone knows that Ann is being tongue & cheek w/ her comments, whereas Ward Churchill actually believes what he says at any given moment. Ann earns her money & people are more than welcome to not attend her speeches, buy her books, etc. Ward Churchill hides behind tenure & had to remove himself from his position from within the tax payer funded university system.

    I agree that Ann should apologize for her remarks & believe that Churchill should’ve been given the boot – for plagiarism, falsifying & lying about his heritage & infringing & out-right stealing & reproducing images of true Native American art – besides other actions.

    I have yet to meet a conservative that takes Ann seriously or receives their marching orders from her, whereas people line up & swain to Churchill like he is some kind of a prophet or radical vs. what he really is… a poor man’s Cindy Sheehan w/o the NYT sanctioned “moral authority.” Or is your use of them simply because they have the same hair-cut?

    We should be careful to demand that every pundit on the web immediately issue a damning remark for every misspoken or questionable statement made by someone sharing their political leanings. If we were to do so, between Dean, Gore, Belafonte, Pelosi, Sheehan, Boxer, Durbin, Biden, Kennedy, etc DKOS & the majority of the Democrats supporters would have to spend 20 hours a day issuing apologies & they wouldn't have time to come up w/ new ways to compare Bush to monkeys or Hitler. We on the right would have out hands filled by Buchanan, Robertson & Ms. Coulter, but since they aren’t leading the Republican Party or recognized as being spokesmen, like Mr. Reynolds reaction to Ann, the right generally ignores them & wishes they would go away.

    A fair comparison would be Franken to Coulter – similar jobs, both are authors & speakers for their causes & both are terminally not very funny - but then again that wouldn’t really prove your point. The left doesn’t really question Franken. Conservative Blogs & pundits have questioned Ann’s CPAC comments, whereas I have yet to see or read one Democratic supporting or left leaning blog question Franken & Air America’s involvement in the $875,000 loan, financial organization, etc.

    While you may have a problem w/ one political commentator, Glenn Reynolds, like your Bush cultist arguments your response & argument appears short sighted, one sided & so far below what you have shown you are capable of.

    Gotta love the extra traffic though…

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous5:11 PM

    Hypatia,
    I'm totally with Reynolds on this one, and don't like what you did. It was rude and uncalled for;

    Hahaha, like the right is never rude.

    I have read Reynolds dissing Coulter, or Robertson, or other right-wing nutjobs on innumerable occasions.

    That's not the point, the point is after Coulter said "Ragheads" the crowd CHEERED her on! So, now the entire CPAC crowd is right-wing nutjobs?? Wrong, this is mainstream Republican mindset ( albeit HIDDEN, on purpose )

    And it must be said, I find your piety on this issue hypocritcal, given your public defense of a cretinous, anti-American jackass like Michael Moore.

    That's pretty strange disemble a statement and fill it with a biased, highly-opinionated description of someone. It's not a fact that MM is a jackass, that's your opinion.



    Reynolds has a knack for IGNORING bad news, consistently, remember when he never posted on the torture law that Cheney was trying to shoot down ( teehee ). Until he absoultey had to when Bush signed that damn thing?

    It that regard Reynolds is childish, highly partisan, and not a part of the reality based community.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Another great post, Glenn. The last paragraph reminds me of a post I did earlier this week. It's okay, you can take the credit =)

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous5:14 PM

    I just want to go on record (if this is record) that I'm a Democrat who has no idea who Ward Churchill is, other than some assumptions I might make based on the context in which he's mentioned in this post.

    BUT, I know all too well Ann Coulter. She's everywhere I turn, bookstores, on TV, in the news, and on some of my favorite news sites. And I know what she says and stands for. Coulter and Churchill are not synonymous. If only Coulter could be at the decibel level as Churchill, I'd be much happier.

    Thanks, Glenn for calling these people to task.

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  68. Oh Glenn, I coined a phrase for this GOP-Coulter connection to violence and racism. I call it: "The Coulter of Hatred" (like the Culture of Corruption)

    You may have it. I cannot get it publicized quick enough.

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  69. Anonymous5:20 PM

    Re: Jonah firing Coulter -
    Is there any truth to the rumor that, just before doing so, he asked his "readers" at The Corner where he could find a how-to guide on firing someone?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous5:21 PM

    Yeah, I think that even people I disagree with politically shouldn't be smeared by being equated with Osama bin Laden. How socialist of me.

    We've been over this all before. Michael Moore already said about himself what Matthews said, and it is true they sound alike. OBL's pronouncements track the propaganda points in Moore's movie. Anyone with two IQ points to rub together can see that; it was widely noted in 10/04, (and not just by right-wingers), and Moore mocked Bush about it the night before the election. Yet you append your name to the alleged need to "apologize" to a far-left lunatic like Moore, who thinks it's "funny" that Osama taunts Bush with the same points Moore does about the supposed depravity and venality of having gone to war in Afghanistan, and Bush's supposed dallying with My Pet Goat after Osama killed a bunch of us. Yeah, I can see the humor there. And I can see why it makes more moral sense to scream at Chris Matthews than to denounce Moore for his finding amusement in Osama sounding like him.

    Ok, then. Just keep on like that, and all sorts of reasonable people will listen to you. Really.

    That, and sending a lot of angry left-of-center people to flood Glenn Reynolds' mailbox with accusations of being a fascist and stuff, yes, that will move things along just swimmingly. Cuz really, Reynolds is now a non-person anyway, as I guess is anybody else who doesn't conform to the demanded thoughts and actions -- including quickly and often enough -- around here.

    But you have forfeited standing to lecture anymore about the Digby maxim regarding when a conservative stops being one and morphs into a liberal, because you practice your own version of that maxim.

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  71. Anonymous5:22 PM

    Glenn Reynolds == PAID SHRILL SHILL
    Please don't call him a blogger since I don't see him taking comments. He is just a nobody with a web page.
    As for Coulter, he has been suffering from self-loathing since he was born with the unwelcome penis. Coulter only feels welcome in a crowd of others that thrive on hate and bigotry.

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  72. Anonymous5:22 PM

    am i think that this hypatia fellow represents the whole of the republican party? And it is so so obvious that hepatia is male, is it not? And moreso, a White Male, an Angry White Male. And lordy lordy, he is Fighting back ! He got Instacracker's back, doncha know ! Fighting back against the relentless assault by those nasty liberals. Its the Alamo Syndrone writ large. A bunch of illerate peckerwoods who valiantly fight for the freesom to enslave others.

    How republicanisqe.

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  73. Anonymous5:24 PM

    It seems that democrats, or liberals, are more prone to feeling guilty when someone associated with their party or their values behaves badly. They internalize the criticism. Republicans/conservatives, on the other hand, simply regard themselves as righteous and do not worry when someone like Ann Coulter or Michele Malkin incites violence, hatred, racism, etc. It's almost like they're missing a part of the brain, or they have trained themselves to ignore it.

    Hate is very appealing these days because the world is becoming more and more scary, and hate is like your attack dog that you believe is defending you. Never mind that it's attacking someone who is defenseless, or innocent. You still feel protected, and that's all that counts.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Can anyone demonstrate to me that Ward Churchill is even technically a Democrat? Is he a registered democrat? Has he ever published anything defending democratic policy proposals or politicians? Has he ever appeared on any television program as a democratic spokesperson? Has he ever been elected to any democratic position or appointed to anything political or administrative position as a democrat?

    No? You can't prove any of those things because they simply aren't true. If you have a problem with a particular university or a particular program that invited Churchill to speak there please do make your opinions known. I was pretty upset that Bush spoke at Bob Jones University and I'm sure I wrote to them about it. But last time I looked Ward Churchill wasn't running for president of my country. Ann coulter appears regularly as a republican speaker--she doesn't pretend she is a libertarian, she doesn't even pretend (I believe) like reynolds that she is a "former democrat". She is and always has been officially a republican speaker shilling for republican causes. That's what she gets paid for. Your comment that she doesn't even believe what she is saying as opposed to ward churchill who does is simply too weird to be addressed. You support a party that uses a woman who calls for the death of fellow citizens because you think they pay her to lie about what she really thinks and call it humor? how sick is that?

    aimai

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous5:27 PM

    Wow Kharma,

    So Ann is angry because she is a transgendered or trans-sexual man. She “only feels welcome in a crowd of others that thrive on hate & bigotry”… you mean like your statement there? If that is the case why are so angry, hormone shots kicking in?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous5:33 PM

    Really, have you ever seen a Bush Republican take responsibility for ANYTHING?

    This is the party that revels in their corruption, but will never acknowledge that attribute.

    If King George sets the example by never acknowledging his alcohol addiction, why should we expect any of the Bush Republicans to acknowledge their addictions? Addictions to power, money, hatred, you name it.

    Someone like Coulter is the perfect symbol/scapegoat for all of the worst attributes of the Bush Republicans and their sympathizers. She is the perfect person for them to project onto.

    But, as soon as the Bush Republicans start losing their power, say, next year, she will begin to get scapegoated when it's convenient for them.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous5:35 PM

    Reynolds linked uncritically to a post condemning Coulter. That's what he does. His occasional link to something he disagrees with is also clear, and manifestly not the case.

    In your reply to the reply, you failed to mention that Reynolds has out her down a long, long time ago. Good one.

    One need not be a "lefty" to dislike Ann Coulter, but one most certainly is a Lefty if one emails Reynolds in response to your lies, and has not read his blog.

    Furthermore, your "guilt by failure to condemn quickly enough" is a worn-out stunt in the blogosphere.

    "Oh that self-hating, anti-Semite Glenn Greenwald, he hasn't denounced Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial."

    In any case, you are a liar, but couched in enough carefully chosen litigator's words, to preserve some plausible deniability. Liar.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous5:35 PM

    "Glenn Reynolds is a disgusting hypocrite and he's mad that you pointed that out."

    That is the crux of this little throwdown. The "good" Glenn (Greenwald) took the "bad" Glenn (Reynolds) to task for blatant hypocrisy and used a particularly huffy, idiotic, broad-brush post of Reynolds' own words to do it. It was a borderline out-of-character venom-screed by Reynolds, but unfortunately for him, it was a near-perfect example of his blatant double-standard-ism when it comes to calls for repudiation from so-called "fringe" elements within the parties. And Greenwald hoisted him high into the air for all to see on said post.

    It plainly embarassed Reynolds. Note in his response that he doesn't dare touch on Greenwald's citing of the double-standard. He instead gives up his game too easily, calling attention to his ego when he alleges a positive link from his "libertarian" self has somehow "unnerved" Greenwald. And then he gives excuses for why he didn't deal with Coulter's corner soapbox screch--he was preoccupied, et.al.--an excuse he legendarily trots out whenever he opts (and he DOES this by choice) to not cover a story hurtful to the right. He'll beg off for being "on the road", resort to nubile, co-ed, on-campus photo-blogging, or mewl about how he either doesn't know enough about a story, or doesn't care about it.

    But as Greenwald points out...he was at the same damned conference where she was--signing books and glad-handing a bit with his right-wing buddies. It is amazing how out of touch this maven of mobile WiFi who posts from this airport and that one and goes on about the WiFi capabilities of his laptop and even goofs about his propensity to blog from inopportune places can sometimes "seem" to be.

    Nope. Greenwald p*ssed the InstaHack off something fierce--and did so in a way that moved Reynolds to the place where you KNOW it bugged him. He responded in his final update in the pissy, huffy, petulant way he does when someone's really gotten under his skin. His over-the-top reaction to Churchill's howls in the Rocky Mountain night reads verrry strange in comparison to his utter silence and then dismissal of importance of Coulter's spewage to the right as a whole.

    He couldn't defend that...so instead, he cries, "Look what you've done Greenwald...now I'll not consider e-mails from lefties as having any merit because you whipped them up agin' me!"

    Laughable words "indeed" from a fellow who routinely prattles on about the bankruptcy of "the left", goes on about his annoyance with "lefties filling up his in-box", and how he has no problem with calling people on the left "traitors". He's already made up his mind about "the left", and his "Bre'r Rabbit" protestations about the left pushing him further into the right's briar patch is little more than a disingenuous joke at best. It's his way of throwing up a mock veneer of "you're moving me closer to the right's camp" when he's already in their mess tent ladling out cream-chipped talking points to his fellow goose-stepping troops.

    His petulance is the last defense in the face of blatant embarassment. His own words. Used against him. Near exact situation. (Save for the fact that no one remotely akin to a progressive leading light was within 500 miles of Churchill when he went off)

    And he got busted on it--for all to see. Thus the pitter-pat of his Size 7 foot-stamping. Awwwwwwww!

    On another note, isn't it kinda funny how the ascendant bloggers on the "left", the ones who are really p*ssing off the right are folks like Glenn Greenwald and the fellow barristers over at Firedoglake? Direct counterpoints to the lawyer/bloogers on the right, i.e. InstaHack, HindRocket and Hewitt? It was easier when these right-wing cheerleaders had few contemporaries on the left to counteract their bullsh*t legal-eagle "graviitas", but now...as counter-balances on the left have arisen, in nearly record time (considering their period of existence), they have become the hunted...the targets.

    A nerve has been struck here. Keep a' hittin' it till they scream...or until you break something.

    Best,
    LowerManhattanite

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous5:35 PM

    Ann Coulter is a satirist/humorist?! Quick, someone tell the Library of Congress.

    How to talk to a liberal (if you must) : the world according to Ann Coulter...
    LC Control Number: 2005616781
    Subjects: Liberalism--United States.
    Mass media--Political aspects--United States.
    United States--Politics and government--1989-

    Slander : liberal lies about the American right / Ann Coulter.
    LC Control Number: 2002006049
    Subjects: Liberalism--United States.
    Mass media--Political aspects--United States.

    High crimes and misdemeanors : the case against Bill Clinton / Ann H. Coulter.
    LC Control Number: 98029093
    Subjects: Clinton, Bill, 1946- --Impeachment.
    Political corruption--United States--History--20th century.
    United States--Politics and government--1993-2001.

    They got this right, at least:

    Lies : and the lying liars who tell them : a fair and balanced look at the...
    LC Control Number: 2004304153
    Subjects: Conservatism--United States--Humor.
    Right and left (Political science)--Humor.
    Truthfulness and falsehood--Political aspects--United States--Humor.
    Rhetoric--Political aspects--United States--Humor.
    Mass media--Political aspects--United States--Humor.
    Political culture--United States--Humor.
    Political satire, American.
    United States--Politics and government--2001---Humor.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous5:36 PM

    Glenn,
    Excellent work in pointing out the inherent hypocracy of the republican pundits. One point I would disagree or rather point out to you is that, Ward Churchill and Harry Belafonte is that they are finge because the democrats don have the spine to actually listen to them. I have heard both of them and their "Extreme Views" in full context. I think they make more sense than any wingnut "intellectual ever will.

    I would like you to also listen to Belafonte's interview with Amy Goodman at Democracy Now:
    http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/30/157217&mode=thread&tid=25

    Ward Churchill is extremely articulate if anything. Instead of a knee-jerk reaction to a singly comment from his whole paper which was blown out of proportion I would strongly recommend people to listen to watch the interview and then reach to a conclusion. I really hope that these guys are not the "fringe" but rather accepted as mainstream. Once again I request you Glenn atleat to go and watch these interviews.

    Churchill's interview is at:
    http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/index.php?action=detail&video_id=10046&browse=0

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous5:41 PM

    Ward Churchill isn't a democrat,in fact,he's pretty much anti-government in it's current form and sees little difference in the political parties themselves.If his 9/11 essay hadn't got any attention,he'd be unknown to all but the rare reader of his books or attender if his speaking engagements.He's never been invited to a Democratic Party event and then applauded loudly for anything he's said.(I wonder how many people have even read Churchill,I have,his book about American Indian boarding schools is heartbreaking,not evil or radical)

    Ann Coulter on the other hand is a fairly well known author and given time on tv"news programs"as a valid news analyst,guest,pundit etc.(cover of Time?Hmm)The fact that not a one of the conservative pundits,authors,prominent bloggers or politicians in attendance at that event didn't speak out until cornered speaks volumes.

    If the GOP conservatives really didn't like or agree with Ann,or Rush for that matter,they'd regularly denounce them,distance themselves from them and speak out about that regularly.Instead,they enable them by inviting them to their events and remaining silent as they lie to millions of people regularly.Why is that?

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  82. Just look at the pretend-outrage of Al Gore's speech in Jiddah -- John Gibson and Bill O'Leilly have been over the top on this recently. What the right is good at is framing these allegedly errant remarks as generally reflective of the defects generally of the "left" or Dems. Just in the last week -- Carter was denounced, Hillary was denounced, now Gore is denounced.

    We are not as good at this as they are, simply because we prefer to deal in matters of fact and truth. But if we could better pin the right with comments from nuts like Malkin and Coulter it would certainly help.

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  83. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Apologies, I inadvertently posted the earlier comment without checking for typos

    Glenn,
    Excellent work in pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of the republican pundits. One point I would disagree or rather point out to you about Ward Churchill and Harry Belafonte is that they are fringe because the democrats don't have the spine to actually listen to them before passing judgment on them. I have heard both of them and their "Extreme Views" in full context. I think they make more sense than any wingnut "intellectual" ever will.

    I would like you to also listen to Belafonte's interview with Amy Goodman at Democracy Now:
    http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/30/157217&mode=thread&tid=25

    Ward Churchill is extremely articulate if not anything else. Instead of a knee-jerk reaction to a single comment from his whole paper which was blown out of proportion, I would strongly recommend people to listen, to watch the interview and then reach to a conclusion. I really hope that these guys are not the "fringe" but rather accepted as mainstream. Once again I request you Glenn atleat to go and watch these interviews.

    Churchill's interview is at:
    http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/index.php?action=detail&video_id=10046&browse=0

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous5:51 PM

    From Intacracker's post:
    "The result of this sort of behavior is aid and comfort to the enemy."

    So now he's comparing Coulter to Al Gore! He dances around the subject at length but can't bring himself to state the obvious that what she said was wrong and evil. WEnd of story. Not, well it doesn't help the cause, etc, ad nauseum. Then he links to a post post that sums up the right's dancing around the issue, never saying "Coulter should STFU".

    “standing up in front of a microphone and calling people ‘ragheads’ isn’t helping anybody.”

    “was spectacularly ill-chosen and ill-timed,”

    “I don’t think she should do it.”

    Now, tell us what you really think, you bunch of Whiny Assed Titty Babies.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous5:57 PM

    How utterly absurd. Siteunseen writes: am i think that this hypatia fellow represents the whole of the republican party? And it is so so obvious that hepatia is male, is it not? And moreso, a White Male, an Angry White Male. And lordy lordy, he is Fighting back !

    As some who read here are well aware (because they know and have met me), I am an almost 50-yr-old grandmother. You know, one of those wimmins who procreated and then the babies had babies.

    Personal insults and put-down, however, are just what this sort of appeal Glenn has started will generate. Nasty accusations flooding Reynolds'email box, and inane (wrong) attacks on me for actually, you know, showing that Reynolds has sharply criticized Ann Coulter, well before this campaign to "prod" him began. But ignore all that -- just speculate oh-so-relevantly about my race and gender.

    When will anyone admit that Reynolds actually had, long ago, criticized Ann Coulter, sharply? That they were wrong? I'll bet never. No, we will see (and already have) goal-post shifting.

    Andmore! Now Reynolds is to be excommunicated, purged, shunned, driven out of any community that could be called Democrat, libertarian or non-conservative.

    When I defend Reynolds, I am not so much doing so for him as a person -- I don't know the man -- but because it appalls me to see this kind of irrational, mean-spirited blogswarm. In a real sense, I'm also defending myself, since Reynolds and I are in extensive agreement. Political pogroms of people who do try to engage in meaningful, rational discussion don't sit well with me. Not when The Corner or other Bush conservatives define dissenters as non-conservatives, and not in the case of this jihad against Glenn Reynolds and others who would and should be voting Democrat. Or at least not for populist Republicans.

    Reynolds wants Rudy Guiliani to get the GOP nomination in '08. That would be my choice as well, even tho I somewhat fret about his being a prosecutor. But if the GOP puts up a Frist, well, then I'd like to vote Democrat. The discussion around here would suggest that the candidate you all are likely to send up won't make that possible for me, or Reynolds.

    So the polarization continues apace, and the attacks on Reynolds make it worse, not better.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Leftist?

    Honestly!

    When you dwell at the south pole, I guess, all directions are north.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Talldave,
    No one is drawing a moral equivalence between Coulter's use of "an epithet" and Churchill's use of the phrase "little eichmans." One could, of course, draw a direct comparison between coulter's yet more famous (and more widely reported) quip that she wished Timothy McVeigh had blown up the New York Times, or her joke about poisoning a supreme court justice, or the new one about enabling the deaths of all the liberal supreme court justices. Those would not only be " morally equivalent" they would be literally equivalent.

    However, of course, you have yet to demonstrate that ward churchill, for all his evils and his naughty, naughty, receiving of money for actually teaching courses that you don't agree with has anything at all to do with the democratic party. Does the democratic party pay for his salary? Does the democratic party--or any democratic group--even pay for reprints of his articles? No? then what on earth is he doing in this discussion of ann coulter who just gave a keynote speech to thunderous applause at CPAC--itself an important republican venue?

    Its pure misdirection to even bring up ward churchill in this discussion. Ann coulter is, and always will be, associated with the republican party because she is a paid representative of the party--because she is paid precisely because she represents them.
    aimai

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  88. It remains unclear why those who support unlawful wars in Iraq -- especially those based on fabrications over WMD -- deserve any form of serious response.

    The AUMF for Iraq is unconstitutional and illegal --
    [a] it causes reckless results;
    [b] the conduct engaged in reliance of this AUMF violates US treaties against unlawful war requiring an imminent threat;
    [c] the AUMF is based on fraudulent information --known to be fraudulent by those who provided the information and relied on the AUMF to engage in unlawful conduct; and
    [d] conduct carried out under the AUMF violates the laws of wars--contrary to the US Constitution Article VI requiring all who take an oath to the Constitution to respect treaties as if they were US laws. [ 504 U.S. 655 ]

    Call him what he is: InstaCessPool

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  89. Anonymous6:07 PM

    bartkid sez,

    Y'know, somebody talked about this situation quite a while back.

    I think his initials were JC.

    He said something like this:
    "You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

    I do believe Instabeameye needs to choose between putting up or shutting up.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous6:09 PM

    Wow and wow . Well done Glenn. (you , not him )

    Retrogrouch, no debate from me , you're right on .

    Why can't Glenn R just say " The Republican party stands for various kinds of rascism and some kinds are objectively okay..." because that's the nut of all the bobbing and weaving.(Mr. Reynolds ,Have a chat with the Mrs. ; I think there's ideological friction to be resovled) None of the right police each other , and the Pajama media wack-jobs slap each other on the back at each progressively more daring slur and smear . Ann says what is in thier hearts and none of them have the courage to stand For her , lest they be exposed , and will not condemn her, lest thier lines fracture .
    Malkin and Coulter are birds of a feather and there will be no drum beat to expell them from the ranks for they articulate an essential element of the Right. Hate.

    I for one have no issue with being called a lefty, Kosite or any other collective condemnation of the liberal , so long as , like Glenn G does so well , we can then move along to the substance of the issue ; That's the Unclaimed Territory, Let us debate on substance for a while , and we'll see how arguments stand .

    What Frau Coulter does is throw meat to the adoring dogs , and helps us see them among the clean cut leaders of tomorrow. And it is to us to force them in bright light to choose a side and defend the rationale.

    ReplyDelete
  91. none of reynold's defenders here seems to able to come to grips with basic facts.

    1. Michael Moore has never threatened to kill someone. he has not threatened to blow up the NY Times building. he has not threatened the life of a supreme court justice. he has not published books accusing conservatives of all being treasonous (a crime for which the punishment can be death, fyi). he voted for ralph nader in 2000. ralph nader is a green, not a democrat. moore was at the dnconvention as a reporter. jimmy carter personally chose to invite moore to the booth, not the democratic party. moore is obvious when being facetious, and obvious when being serious.

    2. ward churchill is not a political figure. ward churchill is not a Democrat. ward churchill is not famous. ward churchill does not appear on tv. ward churchill has never been invited to speak at the left wing equivalent of CPAC, by anyone.

    3. glenn reynolds has asked democrats, in the past, to denounce ward churchill. he has also committed the synedoche of making ward churchill representive of "the left".

    4. glenn reynolds has never evinced in the only forum available to most of us (his blog) that he is in fact a former democrat, nor has he used his libertarian card much. his ACTUAL writing is redolent of a certain republican type--always ready to defend george bush.

    5. markos zuniga (daily kos) angrily denounced mercenaries in iraq. he did not denounce US soldiers.

    6. hillary clinton is a moderate liberal. she always has been. she's never not been. every time that the right wing blogosphere identifies her as "extreme" or "very left" they are showing either ignorance or intentional and willful misleading tendencies.

    these are substantive points. commissar, dog, hypatia--you can't deal with them, you can't refute them, you are stuck babbling bullshit until the day is done.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous6:13 PM

    "Coulter is entertainment by exaggeration and satire.
    Its called free speech and comic relief, with a message. Get a sense of humor or get over it."

    Says the "Dog"

    Hey dog, read one of her muslim babbles, and every time she says "raghead" or "Abdul" substitute "Hymie" and "Mordechai", and see if it's still funny.

    And the message? You tell me.

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  93. Anonymous6:13 PM

    Well, interesting discussion dare I say "peppered" with truthiness on the part of your Insthack defenders. Bottom line: The Bush Cult has been formed at the feet of a masterful group. Rove Republicans are fabulous at electioneering. It's what they do. They are however, lousy at governance. They are corrupt and incompetent. Their ideology is anti-intellectual. The underlying presumptions they rely upon are false; i.e. that they are the victims of persecution by a rabid media. At every turn, ideology trumps common sense, the common good, and sound principles of good governance. Ann Coulter, Glenn Reynolds, Rush, Hannity, Faux News, et al are merely the most egregious of the full-time electioneers speading truthiness in support of an ideology that benefits no one but the oligarchy that owns the media and the big corporations.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:17 PM

    It is doubly interesting that in failing to address the question of why Michael Moore, MoveOn, DKos are called extreme, Glenn's previous point is made again. It matters not what those people actually believe. Once they are tarred by a label the so-called conservatives forget about anything else.

    Seriously, what is so extreme about MoveOn or Michael Moore, or DKos? They don't like Bush?

    game, set, match.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous6:27 PM

    k, I'm gonna say it cause it's so intensely Dumb : Ward Churchill is entirely inconsequential to this debate and is serving as a straw man. He said the people of the 911 tragedy are Little Eichman’s because they participate in an economic system with which he disagrees. His point was that Eichman wasn't a blood splattered sociopath, he was a clerk at a desk arranging for trucks and fuel and tires and trains. A functionary in a criminal enterprise. And ideological monster and a devout Nazi, for certain, and that's what makes Churchill’s comment so stupid. His metaphor was dumb, but let’s stick to what his comment illustrated.
    By citing his " little Eichman " comment , you play along with the right wings simplification of something fairly complex, and it's impossible to speak articulately about this entire subject until the facts are understood. He made a statement intended to provoke, then at least had the stones to appear opposite a 911 family member on the Maher show and discuss it, and gave the family member the opportunity to tell him to his face “my sister wasn’t an Eichman and you’re wrong” He even got Churchill to apologize for the hurt he caused and retract his initial condemnation of the whole. Something Frau Coulter will never do. He never called for anyone’s murder. It isn't a parallel, it's a bullshit equivalency and it's a game we are playing because we are permitting the right to write the rules.
    I'm not scared of anything Ward Churchill ever said and not afraid to argue why it's dumb and wrong and undermines his own cause; I am afraid of anyone using the controversy as a bumper sticker for the level of debased debate we are all trying to avoid.

    ReplyDelete
  96. It's a movement baby.

    All the more reason for Greenwald to carry onward. Why? Because whether or not he succeeds or fails to do away with your "movement", at least there's always the Rapture. Either way, your "movement" of fools and hypocrites (if I may borrow Thomas Jefferson's words) is encouraged to ... well, move! Preferably out of public discourse and into the proverbial "outer darkness" (they weep and gnash their teeth there, too, you know, so you and your movement will find good company there).

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous6:35 PM

    Glenn, that is all so misleading, this campaign against Reynolds and his purported call for Democrats to simply denounce Ward Churchill. That isn't what Reynolds wrote; it was about a lot more than Ward Churchill:

    ANOTHER UPDATE: Various lefty readers email to say that Ward Churchill is not the authentic face of the Left.

    I wish I agreed with that. But, sadly, he is its very image today.

    When Ted Kennedy can make an absurd and borderline-traitorous speech on the war, when Michael Moore shares a VIP box with the last Democratic President but one, when Barbara Boxer endorses a Democratic consultant/blogger whose view of American casualties in Iraq is "screw 'em," well, this is the authentic face of the Left. Or what remains of it.


    I agree with him. Churchill may be obscure, but Reynolds was saying Churchill's deranged screeds are not far afield from others who are prominently embraced by Democrats, others like...Michael Moore. Moore is not obscure, and is at least as noteworthy and high profile as Ann Coulter. Yet. You and many on the left are only reinforcing Reynold's perceptions, as for example this ridiculous camapign to defend the dignity and honor of Michael Moore, as if he is just any other Democrat.

    And I certainly do question Sen. Boxer, Sen Kerry, and any other Democrat who affiliates themselves with a blogger who, about United States citizens subjected to videotaped beheadings by Islamicist enemies, declares: "Screw 'em."

    If you cannot see why Reynolds' views are totally reasonable, and what is wrong with much of the left and the Democrats who embrace that left, then I assure you, this polarization you have frequently written of cannot be healed. At all. Because the most fierce, fundamental objections to the left/Democrats that Reynolds, I and many hold are ones you do not recognize as valid.

    Finally, I'm done explaining what is wrong with Moore. Done that ad nauseam herein multiplethreads -- peoplecan search my name with Moore's. Those who don't see it yet are not going to, and that is just another indication of why the political conversation between on the one hand, reasonable people who voted for Bush, and on the other, those at sites like this one, is going to go nowhere. It would be as if the former were holding tight to a defense of the basic decency and legitimacy of Ann Coulter -- you would not be able to engage in reasoned discourse with such people.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous6:39 PM

    I'd like to take a moment to applaud Zack ( k-thwack , out of the park !) and tell sizemore I have no clue what his post meant.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Degrading the blogosphere? What an interesting comment - I'd like to know exactly what he meant by that. I hope he will give us clear examples of what and what not to do so we can be guided in a consistent manner.

    Looking the whole post over, I think the most important thing to Reynolds would be getting attention for his book. He doesn't seem to like Coulter and I'm sure that has as much to do with her book being a success as anything else...

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  100. Anonymous6:50 PM

    Um, talldave, I think aimai has a good point. Strike that. I think he just kicked your fool ass.

    But I do think you’re correct on one issue, there is no moral equivalency between Coulters history of advocating the deaths of millions of Muslims to Churchill’s history of apologizing for them.

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  101. Glenn, hypocrisy was accorded to conservatives in a little known document pre-dating the Magna Carta.

    In fact, it goes so far back that it is biblical.

    It's called the 11th Commandment.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Glenn,
    You are the GOP's worst nightmare. Those dainty souls at the Corner who like to pretend to be too civilized to try to blow one anothers' heads off while shooting birds can't just disregard the things you write.
    Mr. Greenwald, you are the most persuasive writer who actually tells the truth on the scene today. I salute you.
    If you ever have a day when you think you're not making a difference, send me an email and I'll convince you otherwise. And you inspire me to take another shot at persuading the conservatives in my life that the people in power today do not represent them.

    ReplyDelete
  103. On September 13, 2001 Reynolds described Coulter as forthing at the mouth. For him, that is very strong language.

    Forthing at the mouth? For me, that is very strange language.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous6:54 PM

    Not that I was doing any more than monitoring the opposition -- but I stumbled over the this post via RedState.

    Despite being firmly planted in the "loony lefty" camp - and damn proud of it - I would certainly prefer a world where the theatrics, demagoguery, and ham-handed vilification of the opposition of either side of the political divide died a quick, quiet, and lonesome death. Don't get me wrong - I can't get myself, even at my most objective, to a place where this doesn't come down to a "they started it" -- and lumping Michael Moore blindly into the same bin as Ann Coulter is intellectually lazy and dishonest… but I wish they'd all go away (or-- I wish Ann would go away…. And Air America/Fahrenheit 9-11/etc wasn't necessary).

    I'd much prefer honest debate and discussion on issues like the NSA/FISA/etc -- smug as it may sound, I think that the issues and policy stances I hold would be much more likely to play out the way I'd prefer if the debate was pure and honest, rather than run through side show vaudeville acts on either side of the coin.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous6:55 PM

    My God, doesn't anyone in the GOP remember the hate that the Leander Perez types used to spew which would usually end up with some poor soul being hung from a tree? My bet is they do and they are doing a double ignore on spewers like Anthrax Coulter. There is fillm footage around complete with sound track of these old racist White Supremicist types. Might be a good time to start rolling them out and letting the public see the comparisons, as long as somehow none of these do now what they did then -- initiate lynch parties for public amusement.

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  106. Anonymous6:55 PM

    Ann Coulter says she's a satirist. However, her books are filed under non-fiction, not literature or political satire. I don't see her work on the same shelves as Nicolai Gogol or, dare I say it, Al Franken. Also, she believes what she says as fact, which negates the argument.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous7:18 PM

    And I certainly do question Sen. Boxer, Sen Kerry, and any other Democrat who affiliates themselves with a blogger who, about United States citizens subjected to videotaped beheadings by Islamicist enemies, declares: "Screw 'em."

    Puhleeze.

    Go play with the Lizards.

    How absolutely assinine - 2 words out of millions that have been posted at Kos - and suddenly it's a den of 5th column vipers.

    Give me a break.

    Are we going to play the silly find an objectionable comment and smear them to oblivion game?

    Exactly what right-leaning sites do you think couldn't be tarred in the same fashion?

    ReplyDelete
  108. God I wish Ann Coulter didn't exist. (Not the lady, against whom I have nothing personally, the phenomenon.) It would make it that much harder for people to post long posts about how everyone to their right is typified by a shrill opportunist and semi-comedian. All I can say is, she doesn't speak for me. And if you think she does, you're not responding to me but to your fantasy of anyone to the right of yourself.

    Here's a thought. Read something substantive from the pro-Bush administration side-- say, Brendan Miniter's piece in the WSJ on Rumsfeld and "the long war." You may find everything in it wrongheaded and disagreeable. But I think you will find it impossible to carry on in the way people have been doing for the last few days here-- oh my God you have so totally nailed the dictatorship we live under evil stupid Bush and his Nazis have stolen our freedoms and ushered in fascism and the reign of Sauron.

    Dislike them, disagree with them, think they've totally bollixed it up, but they are wrestling seriously with the real problems we face in the world today. And hysterically imagining that fascism is here and that there are no threats out there gets you nowhere-- and loses swing voters like me (who had never voted for a Republican presidential candidate before 2004).

    On january 20, 2009, Bush will leave office, just as the Constitution says. We will have a new president, probably John McCain, possibly Hillary Clinton, possibly someone neither of us guesses right now. Fascism will not have arrived in America-- but it will still exist in many countries around the world, whipped up with hatred of America which occasionally produces actual violence against us. Whoever is president then will have to deal with it. What do you want to see happen then? What are the policies you suggest for, not the world you imagine, but the world we really live in?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous7:32 PM

    The right tries to ignore the FACT that Moon financed and guided their rise to power also.
    They love to get huffy about U.S. citizen, Soros spending some money in ONE election cycle while non-citizen Moon has outspent Scaife bringing the new theo-right to power. Billions in swindled cash from someone who has a stated goal to subvert our constitution by bringing people LIKE THEM to power.

    No Moon and they are still simply what they have always been, Birchers, theocrats and fascists not people in control of our government..

    They have openly worked with their sugar daddy to subvert the constitution. I wanna hear ONE of the uninformed hypocrites apologize for this..

    ____

    excerpt from:

    U.S News and World Report March 27, 1989
    Rev. Moon's Rising Political Influence
    His empire is spending big money trying to win favor with conservatives.

    On New Year's Day, 1987, South Korean mystic Sun Myung Moon, who considers himself to be the son of God, told his Unification church followers that he wanted to expand the church's political influence in the United States. His aim, Moon said, was "the natural subjugation of the American government and population." ...

    ...the church has established a network of affiliated organizations and connections in almost every conservative organization in Washington, including the Heritage Foundation, the largest of the conservative think tanks and an important source of government personnel during the Reagan administration. Although Heritage officials deny it, the foundation has dramatically changed its policy toward the Unification Church. In the early 80's the foundation, wary of the church's aims, prohibited staff or fellows from being associated with Unification Church organizations or taking money from the church or church-financed institutions....

    As the Washington Times has become the voice of capital conservatives, the Heritage Foundation has become far more tolerant of church ties. ...

    The Unification Church's newfound influence has occasioned intense debate among conservatives. One group of worried young conservatives meets regularly in private to compare notes about the problem. But little of the debate has surfaced in public forums. "Most people are afraid to address the issue because they don't want to publicize the extent of the church's involvement," says Amy Moritz of the Conservative National Center for Public Policy Research.

    Because almost all conservative organizations in Washington have some ties to the church, conservatives also fear repercussions if they expose the church's role. That happened when one organization, the Capital Research Center, published a newsletter last November warning of the church's attempt to create a "centralized world theocracy." One of its board members, who was also on the board of the International Security Council, resigned in protest, and conservatives charging that the paper was creating discord on the right, besieged the center with angry calls. "We got a very, very strong reaction -- almost as if we were the enemy -- because we raised the issue," says CRC Chairman Willa Johnson, a former president of the Heritage Foundation.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous7:37 PM

    Look instead under Kafka, Franz, "The Hunger Artist."




    snap!

    ReplyDelete
  111. Michael,

    You mean "conservatism/the bush administration" YOU ARE SOAKING IN IT? Uh, yeah, Michael. Your party of very, very, serious people have been running this country into the ground for five long years, and you've got three left. No one needs to read articles from pundits expressing their "serious" concerns and their "serious" ideas because we get to see and experience those "serious" ideas every day. Where is new orleans, again? and its population? How come grandma can't get health care? And what was that again about body armor?

    There is no one in this country, right left or center who doesn't recognize that this country has very serious enemies and very serious problems. But can you point to a single on of those enemies or problems that single party rule by the most "serious" of republican administrations hasn't, in fact, utterly botched? Where *is* osama, anyway? What is the *result* of torturing hundreds of prisoners at guantanamo now that we know that most of them weren't captured on any battlefield and weren't, in fact, guilty of anything (let alone knew anything to be tortured for). Now that our reputation for honor has been hopelessly besmirtched what have we bought for it with our serious, serious, foreign policy?

    Please do tell us. As for myself I consider Ann coulter to be not a distraction but symptomatic of the degradation of public political discourse that has taken place on the right and for the benefit of the right. A single woman who brags about her sexual conquests while excoriating pro-choice women as sluts? Why not. It makes as much moral sense as president awol and cheney "five deferments" being our "war president" and vice president. But don't blame the left for criticizing your choice of messengers. You picked them, you pay their salaries, and you laugh at their jokes. The rest of us are as disgusted with their humor as we are with your serious foreign policy.

    Who gave us that wonderful line "you go to war with the army you have...?" oh yeah, one of yours.

    aimai

    aimai

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  112. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Aimai,

    If it is pure misdirection to bring up Churchill then your argument is w/ the host who used Reynolds fisking of Churchill as an example of how Reynolds supposedly attacks only leftists & failed to attack Coulture. I also argued it was an invalid & rather stupid parallel to draw, because Churchill is an academic, for lack of a better term. Or as academic as one can be who lies about his education, ethnic background & plagiarizes works of others & steals images from true Native American artists & pawns it off as his own; as academic as one can be who is forced to step down from his department chairmanship because he lied & stole from others. Sure sounds like an academic to me. I have seen Mr. Churchill speak in person, & he is about as far from articulate as a person can be. My point was that he draws his salary from a state supported school, Ann earns hers. It isn’t a fair comparison at all.

    EJ & Fuhnee,

    Tiny Tim’s recordings can be found in Rock & Pop at the local record store, just like Metallica’s does that mean his should be considered heavy metal? I’d say that that is as big of an attempted misdirection as I have seen or did you mean that something under non-fiction or political cannot be satirical as well? Wher eis AL franken shelved?

    The point so far not addressed by most here is that all conservative or moderately right blogs that attended CPAC have either completely ignored or blasted Ann for her comments. I have yet to read any positive remarks from a conservative regarding it. It is asinine to demand that every conservative respond to everything she says. If it isn’t then please point me to where on DailyKOS, Democratic Underground, Atrios’ site, here or any other prominent Democratic or Liberal blog damning Air America’s use of $875,000 of tax payer money that was supposed to go to the now bankrupted Boy’s & Girl’s Club, show me a link to their damning of Dean’s racist comments about Republicans, the denouncement of the Sambo pictures of Lt. Gov. Steele, Condi Rice or Colin Powell, etc. While Reynolds may have passed initially on Ann’s remarks, the left tends to ignore the entire spectrum of comments from their side. How many prominent Liberal blogs have chided Cindy Sheehan for her anti-semantic remarks?

    Zack,

    Ann wouldn’t ever attend a Klan rally, as you know the Klu Klux Klan was founded & organized by Democrats as a direct opposition to their perceived onslaught of Republicans’ efforts to change their way of life. You know the Northern troops who fought & won the war to free the slaves in the South under a Republican President.

    Finally as I have already said, both sides do a disservice to themselves or their readers by resorting to these tactics. The “our actions are justified because the other guy does it meme is a complete waste of time & a rather childish argument to make. I said earlier that I thought that Glenn Greenwald could & should argue his points w/o resorting to such attempts to pander to one-side or at least call out both sides. I was drawn to this site, because I preferred the rational & logical manner in which he had addressed the NSA wire taps situation. I disagreed w/ the Bush cultist argument & found it well beneath what I had experienced in his earlier writings. This is nothing but a flame war that has digressed into a name calling contest.

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  113. Anonymous8:01 PM

    "Coulter is entertainment by exaggeration and satire."

    According to that line of reasoning, Hitler's Mein Kampf is entertainment by exaggeration and satire. All those people in the concentration camps must have laughed themselves silly.

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  114. Anonymous8:14 PM

    pmain said...

    "If it isn’t then please point me to where on DailyKOS, Democratic Underground, Atrios’ site, here or any other prominent Democratic or Liberal blog damning Air America’s use of $875,000 of tax payer money that was supposed to go to the now bankrupted Boy’s & Girl’s Club, show me a link to their damning of Dean’s racist comments about Republicans, the denouncement of the Sambo pictures of Lt. Gov. Steele, Condi Rice or Colin Powell, etc. While Reynolds may have passed initially on Ann’s remarks, the left tends to ignore the entire spectrum of comments from their side. How many prominent Liberal blogs have chided Cindy Sheehan for her anti-semantic remarks?"

    Seriously, go read the sites. They, and their comments addressed these very carefully, and came to a conclusion before judging all these events.

    If you didn't read that, why do you assume that it didn't happen? Did you bother to look?

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  115. Anonymous8:16 PM

    Who, it should be noted, was given a place of honor seated next to a former President, Carter, at the '04 DNC convention.

    Speaking of propaganda, it would be a full time job unraveling the factoids (original meaning: untruths made to appear true by constant repetition) snowballed by the right-wing, and so cavalierly tossed off as above.

    Arne Langsetmo pointed this out above but it bears repeating. Michael Moore was NOT given a place of honor at the DNC convention. He was neither a guest of Democrats nor invited to the convention. He was, however, asked by the Carter family to join them in their box.

    Now let's see how long it takes for it to be repeated on another thread as is.

    Another one:
    ...Democrat who affiliates themselves with a blogger who, about United States citizens subjected to videotaped beheadings by Islamicist enemies, declares: "Screw 'em."

    This is also not true. Kos was in no way speaking about United States citizens subjected to videotaped beheadings. I suggest you look up his original post to read his comment in context.

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  116. Anonymous8:17 PM

    Cheney was crunk. Pass it on.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous8:19 PM

    AJ said...
    ... it will bug her a lot more to be mocked than to be debated or ignored.


    I agree with the view that Coulter needs to be called to account, e.g., as Bob Somerby does here.

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  118. Anonymous8:29 PM

    I have been a liberal since birth or perhaps in my prenatal state when my mother was scared by Joseph McCarthy (Spelling?) I have never heard of Ward Churchill. Perhaps I missed it when he and Ann Coulter went at it on Bill O'Reilly's show. I have certainly heard of Ann Coulter and she seems to show up on cable shows with great regularity along with Pat Robertson and a host of other right wing nuts. If the worst example of left wing craziness that the right can come up with is someone I have never heard of I think that the argument is over.

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  119. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Contrary to Reynolds' claim that he "tend(s) mostly to ignore Coulter," and contrary to his defenders' insistence in the Comments section that he has a long and clear history of denouncing her, what he actually has -- as this Comment from Y.G. Brown demonstrates -- is a pattern of linking to Coulter and/or promoting her latest ventures, such as her blog.

    He does mostly ignore her. Given the volume of what he writes, and for how long, those are a comparative handful of links. Further, he does, in fact, have a history of dissing her, but *I* never said it was a "long" one.

    He links to lots of people with whom he disagrees, some of whom he has excoriated. Kos, for example. He was properly disgusted by the "screw 'em" remark, but has since linked to Kos, and I believe even promoted his book. I know he has said rather congenial things to and about Kos since then.

    Reynolds doesn't hold grudges, except maybe with Andrew Sullivan.

    Fact: Glenn Reynolds has criticized Ann Coulter, unless you think "frothing at the mouth" is a compliment. And he did so with no boorish campaigns to bombard his mail box with intemperate demands to "prod" him. And to, you know, promote civil political discourse in the blogosphere.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous8:39 PM

    Pmain, my post shows where Al Franken is "shelved" by the Library of Congress. (Lies : and the lying liars who tell them...)

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:42 PM

    anonymous,

    I did & after digging through about 1,000 Chimpy McHitlerBurton comments & comparsions of Bush to Hitler there really wasn't much analysis regarding Air America's shady financial dealings, Franken was & is given a complete pass in his dealings w/ the network. As far as I know neither Atrios nor KOS has spoken against the cartoons or "sell-out" statements regarding Condi Rice or Powell. They did somewhat question Sheehan & some commentors did express the viewpoint that she should be more careful about what she says. And only after she began to become a liability for the Democratic Party, but the majority of comments have been positive & in favor of her - though there were a couple who expressed differently. But truth be told, I don't read them every day & completely avoid the DU. I will read them all when news worthy events take place & do post at KOS, but do not keep a diary.

    Once again to stay on topic here, I have yet to read a conservative blog praise Ann Coulter. I have yet to hear a Republician identify her as a spokeman for the party. I would venture to guess that she was there as topical entertainment only, but either way, I don't really care. I found what she said offensive. I object to the gross generalizations of conservatives here & have argued that one cannot compare Ward Chruchill to Ann Coulter. Nice to see someone actually address my points & not some side item raised. Oh wait that hasn't happened. People have argued that Glenn was right, but failed to say why or agree that Ann Coulter is a mouth piece for the Republican Party. I have argued differently & the only arguemnts I have received so far are that Ann's books aren't filed under humor & WArd Churchill is articulate. Oh yeah & I don't read the Liberal blogs.

    ReplyDelete
  122. 103 comments. (according to the little tag at the bottom of your post.) 101 according to the top of the thread. Either way, me 'at is off to ya.

    I don't expect anyone to read this comment, or respond to it, any more than I'm going to sit down and read through 100+ comments or respond to any of them. Having said that:

    Calling conservatives out on their constant hypocrisy and their incessant application of double standards as regards their behavior and ours is pointless. Well, no, it has a point; it's very well written and enjoyable to read. But you're only preaching to the choir. It will have no impact on conservative behavior. They know what they are doing: maintaining and increasing their power base. If they'll steal, threaten, torture, and kill to do it (and they will, as we've seen) why do you think they'll flinch away from lying? They won't. They don't. And they don't care.

    We liberals act as if conservatives have some kind of conscience, or at least, some small tiny smoldering ember of shame somewhere within themselves, and if we keep after them, and keep pointing out all the various ways they are dreadfully, appallingly wrong, both factually and ethically, they will, eventually, come to understand their fault and repent of it.

    They won't. The modern conservative movement was born from resentment. As progressive policies have advanced throughout the 19th and 20th Centuries, white male Christian social dominance has eroded. Conservatives feel they are entitled to run the world, and they will do whatever is necessary to regain that lost position of political supremacy. It's that simple.

    Occasionally it seems we liberals, en masse, manage to get it through our heads that conservatives have no still small voice inside them that tells them right from wrong. But we continue to complain about their undeniable moral transgressions, their inconsistency, their intransigent turpitude and two faced bullying thuggishness, even though we know they aren't listening. When we do this, we seem to be assuming that there is some sort of impartial referee somewhere in the political discourse, who will step up at some point and say "you know, you're right, those guys have been throwing chop blocks, running offsides, and grabbing your team's face masks like crazy for the last twenty years. And their unsportsmanlike conduct is just insane. Two hundred yard penalty, loss of sixty or seventy downs, and six automatic touchdowns to the liberals."

    It's not going to happen. There is no line judge in realpolitik. Once upon a time the media was, maybe, just a little bit, in the position of making these kind of calls, but the conservatives have worked that ref so successfully that he is know almost entirely in the right wing's pocket.

    We lefties have to get it through our guts as well as our heads: there is no Lone Ranger. Superman isn't going to save us now, and, for that matter, neither is Patrick Fitzgerald. The conservative movement is not going to put down the gun with tears in its eyes and say tremulously that they just want a chance to make up for all the bad things they've done, as the credits start to scroll. And nobody is going to slap the cuffs on them and lead them off to political exile, either.

    We are just talking to ourselves.

    At some point, in some way, we, the sane, rational, thinking, tolerant people, who actually believe in a free society and individual human rights and all that stuff, are going to have to do something about it.

    Or, we're going to end up living down the block from a Domestic Internment Center For Potential Security Risks and Enemy Combatants, most of which will be Muslim.

    Or, you know, inside one. Because not all the internees will be Islamic, some of them will be us.

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  123. Pmain,

    You are truly a hero in your own mind. You originally compared ward churchill to ann coulter and have simply utterly failed to address the myriad of ways in which the two are utterly dissimilar. I pointed out that churchill was
    a) not a democrat
    b) not invited to speak as a democrat at any time
    c) not a guest on any shows as a democrat
    d) not appearing to raucus cheers at any top democratic meeting
    e) not a featured book writer at democratic or liberal book clubs
    f) doesn't have a prominent adams apple (oh sorry)

    All of these things, with the word "democrat" changed to " republican" appy to ann coulter. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, that Instapundit has been asked to condemn violent and racist remarks made at a conference he, himself, attended. and he has actually gone ahead and done that (good for him). It is not necessary to be more royalist than the king, you know. YOu can stop defending ann coulter and the party that *employs her* with reference to ward churchill being somehow the responsibility of a party and people who do not employ him.

    and all the other misdirection? people are pretty much ignoring it. If you don't like this Glenn's site, why don't you post somwhere else. Those who sit in the dark are condemned to stay there and I don't mind if you think that applies to the thousands of bloggers who read Glenn Greenwald's work, or to yourself.

    aimai

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  124. aimai:

    Arne,
    is your name the first ever combination of swedish and tibetan?


    Nope.

    As for the rest of your post, I agree most wholeheartedly. As I think I said in one post, I have no problem with Michael Moore, and think he raises some points that are worth discussing, rather than being a reason to vilify him as a traitor, Osama lover, or worse.... I also asked Hypatia what her problem with Dubya was, outside of his having the audacity to diss the Emperor.

    Cheers,

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  125. Anonymous8:57 PM

    Arne Langsetmo pointed this out above but it bears repeating. Michael Moore was NOT given a place of honor at the DNC convention. He was neither a guest of Democrats nor invited to the convention. He was, however, asked by the Carter family to join them in their box.

    LOL! Oh, THAT makes it better. It was just a former Democratic President and his family who invited Moore to sit with them at the DNC convention. Well then, now that does change the picture of, yanno, Democrats endorsing and embracing Moore -- it was just one of their Presidents doing that.

    Alrighty, then.

    I trust your "clarification" about Kos and "screw them" is as compelling.

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  126. pmain:

    Everyone knows that Ann is being tongue & cheek w/ her comments,...

    Oh, like His Emanence Rush suddenly becomes "just an entertainer" when he gets called on his bu11$hit, eh? I'd note that this "entertainer" was feted by the Republican Congresscritters back in 1994 or so, and they're a notoriously humour-deficient bunch....

    But I guess you're saying that we should break out in gales of laughter if we think that Coulter's comments about blowing up the NYT, killing Muslims, and deporting and/or exterminating liberals are side-splittingly funny, and otherwise ignore her. I'll just move to step two, thanks. Don't you think it's about time you Republicans did the same, rather than plunk her centre stage at your latest party rallies?

    Cheers,

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  127. pmain:

    ... whereas people line up & swain to Churchill like he is some kind of a prophet or radical vs. what he really is…

    That's strange. I think about the only people paying any attention to Churchill are the RW foamer brigades. That's just an eyeball guess, but I confident it's pretty much spot-on. But feel free to trot out the occasion where the DNC invited him to be a keynote speaker at one of their affairs, complete with swooning masses of admirers....

    Cheers,

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  128. Anonymous9:05 PM

    "Oh, like His Emanence Rush suddenly becomes "just an entertainer" when he gets called on his bu11$hit, eh? I'd note that this "entertainer" was feted by the Republican Congresscritters back in 1994 or so, and they're a notoriously humour-deficient bunch...."

    And, of course, the silliest thing about this is the fact that the right wing in this country just loves to villify people like Barbara Streisand and Tim Robbins for their political views, when they are, in fact, ACTUAL entertainers!

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  129. pmain:

    A fair comparison would be Franken to Coulter – ...

    IC. When did Franken call for Muslims to be killed, express dismay that the N.Y. Times wasn't hit by terrorist, and such? Is it in his latest book? Guess I'll have to go buy it and find out. ;-)

    Yes, indeedy, an apt comparison. Gives the rationally minded an idea as to how it's possible to be humourous and pertinent.

    Cheers,

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  130. Anonymous9:12 PM

    LOL! Oh, THAT makes it better. It was just a former Democratic President and his family who invited Moore to sit with them at the DNC convention. Well then, now that does change the picture of, yanno, Democrats endorsing and embracing Moore -- it was just one of their Presidents doing that.

    Exactly. So you see then how you deliberately misrepresented it, despite all the LOL.

    Yanno?

    I trust your "clarification" about Kos and "screw them" is as compelling.

    No need to trust. Go read the original. You'll see easily enough that his comment was not at all about United States citizens subjected to videotaped beheadings by Islamicist enemies. But then, I suspect you know that already, don't you? Like the fact that Democrats did not seat Moore at a place of honor at the DNC convention.

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  131. Anonymous9:13 PM

    John

    And, of course, the silliest thing about this is the fact that the right wing in this country just loves to villify people like Barbara Streisand and Tim Robbins for their political views, when they are, in fact, ACTUAL entertainers!

    A very good point, and one that bears repeating. And that's not even mentioning the treatment that entertainers like Al Franken receive, despite clearly being far closer to the 'satirist' label than Limbaugh and co are.

    In light of this, I'm staggered by the intellectual dishonesty both Reynolds and his supporters in this thread continue to display in their attempts to justify a clear hypocritical double-standard.

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  132. In light of this, I'm staggered by the intellectual dishonesty both Reynolds and his supporters in this thread continue to display in their attempts to justify a clear hypocritical double-standard.

    Exactly - it's really very simple:

    If, as Reynolds insists, Democrats are obligated to denounce "their extremists," how come Reynolds didn't denounce Coulter (until the C&L'ers demanded that he do so)?

    And how come conservatives keep treating her like an honored leader of their party?

    And why is that OK?

    And finally, are there are any Democrats who advocate the murder of their political opponents?

    Has anyone answered any of that?

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  133. Anonymous9:30 PM

    "Has anyone answered any of that?"

    Well, the silence speaks volumes, Mr. Greenwald.

    Considering the level of hatred leveled at legitimate political criticisms, I have to imagine that, were a Dem ever to say such a thing, we'd all be well aware of it.

    I mean, the right is still bringing up things like Kennedy's auto accident and protestors supposedly spitting on Vietnam Vets. If there was something more recent, I have to imagine it would be in a talking point somewhere!

    ReplyDelete
  134. Let's hear Glenn Reynold's comments on the Able Danger program.

    1. HASC meeting on Able Danger: 15 Feb 2006

    2. Meeting announcement on Able Danger: Click

    3. The case law showing Able Danger and AUMF are illegal; and the President and Joint Staff are in rebellion against the Constitution:Click

    InstaCessPool rising . . .

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  135. Anonymous9:39 PM

    If, as Reynolds insists, Democrats are obligated to denounce "their extremists," how come Reynolds didn't denounce Coulter (until the C&L'ers demanded that he do so)?

    That is simply a falsehood. Reynolds "denounced" her as "frothing at the mouth" two days after 9/11. How many more times need I say that?

    Nor did Reynolds demand that Democrats denounce "their extremists." What he wrote is that they are affirmatively embracing them, and they have. Some here do.

    Coulter's most heinous comments are quite recent. The grotesque statements about Supreme Court Justices, in my mind, justify not only a ban on giving her any more platforms, but I'd think whatever bar she belongs to should look into professional discipline. Lawyers have free speech rights, but publicly hoping for the deaths of judges crosses a line.

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  136. Hypatia:

    LOL! Oh, THAT makes it better.

    No. It makes the crud you're flinging just more RW lies and slime propagated by the Mighty Wurlitzer. We gotta play Whack-A-Mole all the time, and we can beat down this lie here, but, as another poster pointed out, it will spring up like crabgrass once again on another blog or on another day.

    You, Hypatia, would do yourself a service to check up the truthiness of what it is you post before you post it. When you've shown yourself to be a willing pawn or dupe if the RW Noise Machine (if not worse, a willing participant), you need to set your bu11$hit detector up a notch. And start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

    OK?

    I trust your "clarification" about Kos and "screw them" is as compelling.

    What clarification about Kos? Are you hallucinating? Don't think I said any thing on the subject (don't really need to, that canard has been fricasseed and the bones picked clean a long time ago ... if you'd bother to go do some actual research on the matter yourself).

    Now, down to business, Hypatia: Both I and another here have asked what it is, exactly, that merits Moore's shunning (which, in fact he was by the powers that be at the Democratic convention) other than the fact that you don't like him because he doesn't kiss the ground Dubya walks on. Oh, yeah, and the alleged "fact" that he sounds exactly like bin Laden, but with a Detroit accent, different mannerisms, contrary conclusions, anonanonanonanon.... Say, you do know what "ad hominem argumentation is, don't you? Now tell us, Hypatia, you really don't like him because he's fat, right???

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  137. When was Glenn Reynolds ever a Democrat? And what did the Democratic Party supposedly do in the last 20 years that made the Republican Party so much more attractive?

    There have been only two major sea changes in the DNCin my lifetime. The first, Glenn is too young for, although much of what he writes would be consistent with the Dixiecratic veiled racism we all know and despise - and yes, those people did become Republicans, but most of that happened more than 30 years ago.

    The second is that the Dems have become wimpier at defending liberalism and at fighting back against the Republicans - but if you are a social libertarian, that hardly makes the authoritarianism of the Republicans more attractive.

    Republicans tax and spend - and spend at a much faster rate than Democrats. Republican programs are always more expensive and less effective. Republicans consistently expand government, especially in the areas libertarians claim to oppose the most; repression is fundamental to their program. They are intrusive, inefficient, and anti-constitutional.

    So why would an alleged libertarian ex-Democrat support Bush? It makes no sense.

    (And never forget: Michael Moore and Al Gore were right about the war, and Glenn Reynolds was wrong.)

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  138. Anonymous9:50 PM

    Nor did Reynolds demand that Democrats denounce "their extremists." What he wrote is that they are affirmatively embracing them, and they have. Some here do.

    Are we reading the same thread?

    And if you're again referring to Michael Moore, I'd like to join the choir in asking you to cite your specific complaints against the man? This isn't powerline or lgf, we don't automatically equate Moore with the devil. I have yet to see one example of what the man believes or has said that demands denouncing. If you think Moore is an extremist we have very different views on what an extremist is.

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  139. Anonymous9:52 PM

    Aimai,

    The first mention of Ward Churchill was a linked article written by Glenn Reynolds & posted & linked by Glenn Greewald. In fact, it is that very posting that we are commenting on here. I think it is very valid to bring up & argue w/ the points used by the author that we are responding to. Please re-read the last few sentences of the 2nd paragraph in Glenn Greenwald’s post above & see why & how Ward Churchill was used originally. Also I’d like to point out, that to use Ward Churchill, as I have argued several times & in several posts here today, as an example was not a very good choice. Now allow me to answer your bullet points.

    A) I never claimed Ward Churchill was a Democrat
    B) I never insinuated that Ward Churchill was asked to speak as a Democrat. I merely said he was not articulate & that this was something I experienced first hand
    C) I never said he was a guest on any shows as a Democrat, nor did I or would I argue that Ann Coulter had been invited as a Republican. Had I, I would have said that she would have been invited as a commentator, not a Republican... just like I would had said the same about Al Franken. Please don’t place words into my mouth or at least read what I read before responding
    D) Once again, I never insinuated Ward Churchill spoke at a Democratic meeting
    E) Never mentioned Ward Churchill or book clubs
    F) Never talked about an Adam’s Apple, but I agree that Ward Churchill is very effeminate. Matter of fact I suggested that he & Ann have the same haircut.

    I’d suggest that you actually read what I have written, since your A-F bullet address nothing I have said, written or implied. The only defending of Ann Coulter I have done so far was to suggest that the use of an academic fraud like Ward Churchill was a stupid argument or horrible example to use. Ward Churchill & Ann Coulter aren’t even on the same level.

    I love how you have skipped over the fact that I said she does not represent Republican values & that the majority of conservative bloggers have lambasted her for the “rag-head” comment.

    As to being a hero in my own mind, since you have failed to comprehend, much less read the author of this blog or his post that we are commenting on, or what I have actually written here, I will have to assume that that statement is nothing more then the continued conjecture & baseless opining you seem to have mastered so acutely.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous9:55 PM

    5. markos zuniga (daily kos) angrily denounced mercenaries in iraq. he did not denounce US soldiers.

    That makes me simply sick, and really quite angry. Those "mercenaries" are civilian contractors and United States citizens who were mother-fucking beheaded on video-tape by the Islamic enemies of this nation.

    But do carry on just like that. Rove wants you to. The GOP can put the families of these mercenaries on TV in election '06 and '08, and any Dem candidate who has ever posted at Kos can answer to them. Those folks having "absolute moral authority," and all.

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  141. Anonymous10:04 PM

    pmain:

    "The only defending of Ann Coulter I have done so far was to suggest that the use of an academic fraud like Ward Churchill was a stupid argument or horrible example to use. Ward Churchill & Ann Coulter aren’t even on the same level."

    No, see, because this is precisely the point. They are not equivalent in reach and influence, not even close. The fact is that Coulter has been afforded a place of prominence within the GOP, despite having said some pretty brutish things.

    So, if the Democrats must condemn the statements of a nobody like Churchill, as Reynolds has implied, then why shouldn't Republicans have to do the same thing for Coulter? After all, she is the far more influental figure.

    "I love how you have skipped over the fact that I said she does not represent Republican values & that the majority of conservative bloggers have lambasted her for the “rag-head” comment."

    Yet, she continues to get invited on TV as a pundit, and continues to be invited as a speaker at prominent Republican conventions. If she doesn't represent Republican values, then WHY IS SHE THERE? And why do so many Republicans support her?

    Obviously, she taps into SOMETHING within the GOP constituency.

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  142. Anonymous10:07 PM

    "But do carry on just like that. Rove wants you to. The GOP can put the families of these mercenaries on TV in election '06 and '08, and any Dem candidate who has ever posted at Kos can answer to them. Those folks having "absolute moral authority," and all."

    Well, it seems as if they wouldn't be there at all if not for the bungling of the Bush Administration ...

    That said, if Kos or anyone else implied that killing is acceptable, they should be called to task (which, I believe, may just be the whole point of this thread).

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  143. In re the mercenaries:

    Kos is a former american soldier and us citizen.
    the mercenaries who were killed were not beheaded, no matter what hypatia thinks
    they were not necessarily american citizens.
    the difference between mercenaries and soldiers is one does for pay what the other does for love of country and honor.
    Kos took the position that mercenaries do not deserve the same respect as american soldiers

    He has addressed this and its not the place of any other person to speak for him. If hypatia continues to be angry about the verbal treatment of paid mercenary soldiers by an actual U.S. veteran perhaps she'd like to take it up with him directly.

    Pmain:
    you are utterly disingenous and I and others have proved it again and again. But you knew that. Because you are posting here merely to prove something that is obviously factually incorrect.

    The republican party uses its "enternatainers" and employs them and pays them to vilify their legitimate civil opponents, to drag down the level of public political discourse and to keep american citizens separated from one another. Ann coulter doesn't expect to convert any democrats to republican "virtues" or republican "policies" by calling for their death. she wants to keep republican voters from being willing to consider alternate political and policy possibilities by ridiculing democrats and non republicans. and you do too. Because all your posts are about demeaning and attacking people who differ from you only in this: that they see different policy options in a complex world. If you accept that all of the people posting here, and all of the people voting out there, have a right to form their own opinions and vote as their conscience sees fit there can be no place for hate mongers like Ann coulter. And it is undeniable that although *you* prefer not to be publicly associated with her 5000 of the top republican opinion makers roared with approval as she strutted her brand of hate speech for her fellow citizens and fellow humans.

    If *you* don't identify with ann coulter perhaps its time you left the party that lionizes her.

    aimai

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  144. pmain:

    ... I would have said that she would have been invited as a commentator, not a Republican...

    Oh. I thought they just wanted to look at her +!+$. So it was her prodigious talents as a "commentator" that earned her the nod, eh? But ... waiddaminnit ... isn't it these precise "talents" that are at the very centre of the issues here???

    But I think that you purposefully ignore the political slant to her getting invited. Are you seriously trying to claim here, with a straight face, that her politics had nothing to do with the invite? Hate to tell you, but the folks reading Glenn Greenwald aren't that easily duped.

    A) I never claimed Ward Churchill was a Democrat

    B) I never insinuated that Ward Churchill was asked to speak as a Democrat. I merely said he was not articulate & that this was something I experienced first hand

    IOW, Renolds was just full'o'it when he opined that Democrats (or "the Left") ought to be wasting lots of time denouncing Churchill then?

    I love how you have skipped over the fact that I said she does not represent Republican values ...

    Which must explain the applause she received, eh?

    ... & that the majority of conservative bloggers have lambasted her for the “rag-head” comment.

    Really??? Where??? Now about the comment about the N.Y. Times. About killing Muslims and converting them? About poisoning justices? About exterminating the left? Actually, her ... ummm, "schtick" ... was well-known before her invite to the CPAC, so I doubt anyone was in the least suprised when she opened her mouth. So, pray tell, where does this "lambasting" happen? In private? With whips and chains? Do tell....

    Cheers,

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  145. Anonymous10:35 PM

    John,

    I have said several times today that she does not represent Republicans. Was she a key-note speaker at the convention last year? Has she spoken at any official RNC functions, primaries or conventions? While the CPAC convention is a conservative conference, it is not apart of the formal Republican Party. Where is her place of prominence? She was a paid speaker at a conservative conference… her remarks have been denounced or completely ignored by conservative bloggers & politicians. Find me one post or article on a conservative blog – don’t bother w/ something from the comments section – that defends what she said. You won’t because it isn’t there. You all assume that she has some official capacity & she doesn’t.

    Ann is invited on TV shows for 2 reasons, she is a commentator & she is controversial. While she may be a Republican, she had no official capacity in the party.

    As far responding to you & Glenn, you both have failed to show 1 official Republican advocating killing their political opponents to begin w/. If you’d like I’m sure I could find several thousand commentors or somments on either the DU or DKOS blogs saying it about Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield, etc. Let’s not forget Randi Roades’ little tirade involving a shotgun, advocating killing Bush. I didn’t use that because Randi isn’t an official member of the Democratic Party nor is she a spokesperson, she, like Ann Coulter merely support their parties w/ bad & inaproppiate jokes.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous10:37 PM

    Someone may have already made this comment, and if so I apologize for the redundancy and rudeness of not reading through 140+ comments, but please do not let yourself become distracted by petty blog politics.

    Perhaps it is a slow news day(!), but I don't see what purpose slugging it out with these other blogs serves. We already know your qualifications, and those that don't will be better convinced by seeing you take on the big fish.

    In short, save your energy for the issues that matter.

    Respectfully,

    ReplyDelete
  147. Hypatia:

    That makes me simply sick, and really quite angry. Those "mercenaries" are civilian contractors...

    Ummm, no. Those "civilian contractors" are mercenaries. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, so let's cut the bull$hit euphemisms here.

    While I think that killing is terrible, and that such killings are particularly appalling, and I do feel bad for them and their loved ones and the fate they met, that hardly changes the nature of the game they played. Some of the Blackwater people have been hired guns in other places as well. That's what Blackwater does, just FYI. The truck drivers may have only been wanting to make a buck driving a truck (although some were also "security" as well as driving the trucks), but the "private security" folks are as close to being mercenaries as you can get ....

    So, while I feel bad for their families and all, it's not like they didn't walk in asking for trouble ... and on that level, even I tend to say, "screw 'em, they took a wager and lost". They signed up, and saying they were just schmoes working for a paycheck just makes it even clearer yet what they were.

    No one's lionizing the insurgents/terrorists, or saying what they did was justified. They were not; the killings were terrible ... although hardly a surprise. But to some extent, you're responsible for your own actions regardless of the actions -- good or bad -- of others, and that's where the "screw 'em" sentiment comes from. Is that clear now?

    Cheers,

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  148. Liberal commenters,

    I agree with everything GG wrote in this post, but you are not, not, not helping with the crude "instahack" epithets and what not. If the liberal blogosphere wants to claim superiority in terms of thruthful, reality-based debate, then we have to stick to just that. Such "heat-without-light" commentary is counterproductive and serves to obscure rather than reinforce the fine job GG is doing here. There is nothing wrong with simply saying "great post" and leaving it at that if you have nothing substantive to add.

    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous10:48 PM

    For years, Republicans have had their cast of extreme characters - Rush, Hannity, Coulter and others - who threaten, insult, lie, and bully. While Democrats behaved themselves, Republicans have gotten away with it. Now, that some liberal voices occasionally approach the same level of extreme discussion practiced on the right for a decade or more - Republicans denounce it! This, of course, is sheer hypocrisy and easily pointed out. Republicans with a conscience and working ethics (and, of course, there are some) and independents cannot help but see this.

    I believe this is the beginning of the end of extreme partisan. You can't keep up bad behavior and complain about the other side engaging in it. Not without being seen as unfair. Perhaps I am too optimistic, but I hope we can move beyond gotcha politics and name calling and discuss some real problems and their real solutions.

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  150. Anonymous10:48 PM

    I was wrong to say the U.S. citizens whose deaths don't at all bother Kos were a result of beheading. Rather, these Americans, they were shot, burned, mutilated, and what was left of them was then dangled from a bridge in Fallujah. These were Americans who apparently worked as security guards, and Kos said of their deaths: "screw 'em."

    I think that should all be a DNC campaign ad, screaming "screw 'em" about American civilians killed in a war zone. I'm totally sure all the "nuanced" (the left is all about nuance, isn't it?) defenses will win many, many votes for your candidates.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous10:49 PM

    Aimai,

    How am I disingenuous? You are the person who made 6 point bullet comment, all of which involved absolutely nothing I have said. You inferred I brought up Ward Churchill, when it was the host that did. I merely argued it was a bad choice. These are facts. What you have assumed about what I have said has no factual bearing on what I have actually said. How is Ann Coulture apart of the GOP or RNC, other then being a member? She was paid to be at a convention for a political organization that is conservative. She was not at or paid to attend any official RNC event. How is she a spokesperson for the RNC? Does she answer to or work for Ken Mehlman? Answer, No!

    How have I attacked anyone? You throw these statements out, but have no justification for them what-so-ever. Have I misspoken about Ward Churchill? Answer is no. Everything I have said has been fact, other than to say that he & Ann have the same hair-cut. Have I misspoken about you? Answer is No.

    I don’t mind arguing w/ someone w/ a different viewpoint, but it helps if you make a point or argue w. me about something I have actually said.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous10:49 PM

    As far responding to you & Glenn, you both have failed to show 1 official Republican advocating killing their political opponents to begin w/. If you’d like I’m sure I could find several thousand commentors or somments on either the DU or DKOS blogs saying it about Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield, etc.

    Oh I see, so anonymous commenters on a political site are official democrats, whereas a well-known and popular personality who was invited to speak at a conservative conference is not an official republican?

    Once again, clear and transparent hypocrisy.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous10:56 PM

    Anonymous,

    Not to be snarky, but that was in response to the host of this blog. He inisuated as have several others, that Ann Coulter is an official spokesman for the GOP. I have argued that she isn’t, she is a commentor who is Republican. He then asked for anyone to show a leading Democrat issuing a similar response, since a leading Republican hadn’t made the comment & it was not apart of the official RNC, I asked for him to first supply the Republican.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous10:57 PM

    Kos took the position that mercenaries do not deserve the same respect as american soldiers

    Boy, you got that right, and then some. When reporters (who are often lavishly compensated)are killed covering a war, I guess Kos also says "screw 'em," eh?

    Screw all the Americans Kos doesn't like, if they are killed by terrorists, and their corpses dangled from a bridge. And what do the "mercenaries" families feel about this attitude?

    This is all proof that some people really will defend anything.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous10:57 PM

    I can't understand how you can deny that she is a prominent conservative commentator. The "defense" of what she said was the "boisterous ovation" that she received. It isn't that complicated. Clearly, those in attendance (which included MANY prominent Republican figures) did approve. But, of course, that isn't even the point -- the point is that, if Democrats need to condemn Churchill, shouldn't Republicans be held to the same exacting standard to which we are held?

    She was not a keynote speaker, but a denial of her appeal to many Republicans is untenable. I didn't realize that the opinions of bloggers and politicians were all that mattered. What we're having here is a discussion of the makeup of the GOP constituency, and any such discussion must at least address this appeal, and ask WHY she appeals to so many with her hateful rhetoric. The comments section is entirely relevant here, because it represents actual party members.

    Ann is invited on TV shows for 2 reasons, she is a commentator & she is controversial. While she may be a Republican, she had no official capacity in the party.
    That may be true, but she clearly has a pretty large conservative following. Do you deny this?

    "As far responding to you & Glenn, you both have failed to show 1 official Republican advocating killing their political opponents to begin w/. If you’d like I’m sure I could find several thousand commentors or somments on either the DU or DKOS blogs saying it about Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield, etc. Let’s not forget Randi Roades’ little tirade involving a shotgun, advocating killing Bush. I didn’t use that because Randi isn’t an official member of the Democratic Party nor is she a spokesperson, she, like Ann Coulter merely support their parties w/ bad & inaproppiate jokes."

    OK, but Randi Rhodes isn't a prominent media figure. Coulter continues to get airtime on supposedly "serious" news discussion shows. Do you feel that this is acceptable?

    I think the simple fact that no one will support her is very revealing. If no one supports her views or her rhetoric, then why does she continue to get airtime on mainstream venues?

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous11:02 PM

    Marines detained 19 U.S. contractors after gunfire
    By Rick Jervis, USA TODAY
    BAGHDAD — Nineteen employees of a U.S. contracting firm — including 16 Americans — were detained by U.S. troops in Fallujah for three days after allegedly firing on Marine checkpoints in the Iraqi city, the U.S. military said.

    The incident is under investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous11:04 PM

    The contractors work for Charlotte-based Zapata Engineering, which manages ammunition depots and demolishes unexploded ordnance in Iraq among other work.

    On May 28, Marines of Regimental Combat Team 8 spotted a convoy of late-model trucks and sport-utility vehicles firing at and near civilian cars and Marine positions in Fallujah, said Lt. Col. Dave Lapan, a Marine spokesman in an e-mail statement Thursday.

    Later in the day, Marines saw similar vehicles with passengers firing out the windows and at a Marine observation post, Lapan said.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous11:04 PM

    PMain

    Ann wouldn’t ever attend a Klan rally, as you know the Klu Klux Klan was founded & organized by Democrats as a direct opposition to their perceived onslaught of Republicans’ efforts to change their way of life. You know the Northern troops who fought & won the war to free the slaves in the South under a Republican President.

    Nice try for neglecting the important fact; During that 'slavery' and KKK era, Democrats were Conservatives while Republicans were Liberals. And President Lincoln was Liberal. Go back to school and study the history.

    And...

    As far responding to you & Glenn, you both have failed to show 1 official Republican advocating killing their political opponents to begin w/.

    Um, Bill O'Reilly? He's a iconic hero of Conservative Republicans. Ann Coulter is an offical Republican, I know that you know it. And many more... all you need to do is Google.

    Reference: http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100008 (O'Reilly to San Francisco: "[I]f Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we're not going to do anything about it. ... You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead")

    I agree with Anonymous [10:49 PM].

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous11:11 PM

    Since folks like Hypatia (and Reynolds) are apparently insane -- unable to tell right from wrong -- little is achieved by debating them. There are numerous better ways to use your time and energy.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Pmain,
    in such a long thread no doubt different posters points get mixed up. I believe you have narrowed your current points to
    1) ann coulter is not an official republican although she does use eliminationaist rhetorica at very official republican settings and gets applause from official/centrist republicans.
    2) no one has given you the identity of what *you* would call a republican calling for the death of democrats. What about Jesse Helms? is that republican enough for you? Remember when he warned Clinton not to come down to his home state?
    What about Rush Limbaugh calling for the death/imprisonment of democrats and liberals generally?

    The fact of the matter is republicans have cheapened the national discourse since Newt Gingerich worked so hard, and so publicly, to associate key good words with republicans and to vilify democrats. He did it publicly, consciously, and to great effect. He, grover norquist,and Karl Rove have made no secret of their intentions vis a vis the democratic party and democratic voters.

    If you don't like it, leave your party. But don't come crying to us to leave ours for the sake of people like ward churchill or michael moore neither of whom is even a registered democrat.

    aimai

    ReplyDelete
  161. Perhaps it is a slow news day(!), but I don't see what purpose slugging it out with these other blogs serves. We already know your qualifications, and those that don't will be better convinced by seeing you take on the big fish.

    Glenn isn’t just picking a fight with another blog at all, this is just a follow up to his previous posts showing the extremism of this administration. In this post, he is just exposing and exploring how they are playing the game – unfairly, with double standards.

    This isn’t a tift between a couple of blogs, its much bigger than that – what he is trying to do is level the playing field so those who oppose this administration can do so with the same weapons.

    As Glenn put it, if we’re going to play this corrupt game, “it ought to at least be two-sided.” That’s why you hear the screams on the right, they have the playing field advantage and they want to keep it that way.

    “Republicans have spent the last five years courting the most extreme and radical elements of their party, while the media allows them to present a mainstream and moderate face to the public,” says Glenn.

    Exactly, and this post about Ann Coulter exposes that extreme element and the important role it plays in this authoritarian cult for everyone to see.

    It may not be a pretty sight, but it’s time to hold a mirror up to these people, so they can see for themselves just what they’re really all about.

    Obviously, they don’t like what they see. Too bad – they created it.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous11:31 PM

    John,

    I have never argued that Ann Coulter isn’t either a conservative or a commentator, much less a member of the Republican Party. Her appeal doesn’t make her an official part of the Republican Party, which was my point. I’m not bothering to answer the Ward Churchill stuff, I’d suggest read my other comments above or the author’s original post – something several responders to me have apparently failed to do. I am not trying to be dismissive, I am tired of repeating myself w/ people who are either too lazy or haven’t spent the time read the context in which I am arguing – so please do not take this personally. If I have to type my point again, I’m afraid I may go mad. As far as Ann’s popularity, I fail to see the point or how that affects the arguments I have placed.

    Kolko,

    I wasn’t arguing classical liberalism vs. conservatism so therefore I neglected nothing, but thanks for the snarky & inappropriate comment about knowledge of history. I said Democrat, not liberal or conservative. While I’m sure it would fascinating to argue the political philosophies of the past, they have no inherit or appropriate bearing on the arguments I put forth or my response to completely different person.

    Bill O’Reilly as you know is now a registered Independent, just like me. While he may have been a registered Republican, it has no bearing on the argument since we were discussing Republican & Democratic Party leaders. If you are so inclined, I’d love for you to show me how he is an official Republican Party leader being registered as an Independent & not being on the RNC payroll.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous11:39 PM

    As Glenn put it, if we’re going to play this corrupt game, “it ought to at least be two-sided.”

    What Glenn and others on the left need to realize is that "ought" is inoperable on those of the other side. "Look, look, they aren't playing fair!" Well duh. But you can't expect people who refuse to play fair to concede the obvious or the well-demonstrated, the way people who play fair do. The very act of debating them enables them by giving the appearance that they are legitimately seeking to resolve a dispute, which simply isn't the case -- for them debate is simply another operative tool toward achieving their ends. We need to use our energies more effectively to achieve our ends. Go out and care for the poor, lobby for reduced greenhouse emissions, do election work -- anything but debating with the insane sociopaths of the right one-on-one.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous11:45 PM

    Aimai,

    I had forgotten about Mr. Helms, but isn’t it funny you had to go all the way back to the words of an elderly & retired Republican Senator & his remarks about an entirely different administration. But the point is valid none-the-less, just not current.

    I am not a member of any political party, but however am seriously considering joining the Republican Party next time I register.

    For the last time CPAC is not a Republican conference. By your reasoning then I can assume that Al Gore is a member of JEF – which includes a construction company owned by Osama bin Ladin’s brother – simply because he was paid to address them? I’d say no, but then again it was never my contention that Ann Coulter is an official spokesperson or representative of the Republican Party for addressing a conservative convention.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous11:48 PM

    So this Glenn Greenwald has been blogging for all of three months, and he's getting 200+ comments per post? No offense, but what's his secret? He's a "former litigator," but what is he now? Why does anyone care what he has to say?

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous11:53 PM

    Why does anyone care what he has to say?

    This is a blog for those who care about what he writes. You should go find a blog where you care what the blogger writes and don't need to ask why.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous11:55 PM

    rkrider,

    First off, I would never ever feel comfortable for speaking for anyone else, so I cannot in good faith respond to or answer about her popularity for either Republicans or conservatives. I’m not sure what you mean by insanely supportive. All of the blogs I read on a daily basis have questioned her statements at the CPAC & several others that she has made in the past. I have read 2 of her books, liked only one… I read her articles & agree w/ maybe every third or so, so I am probably not the best person to ask about her appeal as a whole. If I was to venture to guess & this would only be a guess, I’d say her appeal is similar to the left’s response to Michael Moore. Both seem to play to their side while pissing off the other. But, once again, that is only a guess or my opinion.

    Nice down shift from honest questioning to full on partisan blowhard w/ the swift boat liars comment.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous11:58 PM

    rkrider: Note how pmain dodges your point about the utter dishonesty of claiming the CPAC isn't Republican, and apparently misunderstands the direct contribution of your Swift Boat analogy. In the absence of both intellectual integrity and intellectual quality, debate is wasted.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous11:58 PM

    Coulter's 'vast enthusiastic following' is confined to those who define human life as something experienced by Terry Schiavo or a zygote. She is 'hateful and destructive' toward anyone who believes that life is more than non-death-by-terrorist.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous12:04 AM

    "So this Glenn Greenwald has been blogging for all of three months, and he's getting 200+ comments per post? No offense, but what's his secret? He's a "former litigator," but what is he now? Why does anyone care what he has to say?"

    Glenn is a rarity in the blogosphere. He takes on issues with in-depth analysis, and is both articualte and persuasive.

    Glenn doesn't need to use hyperbole and demagoguary to make his case, like many blogs out there, and its this that has made Glenns blog popular in such a short time,imo.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Digby over a Hullabaloo has a good post linking to you, Glenn.

    He makes the point that it's not just the Republicans that consider Coulter to be just another "shaker and mover" that just anyone would want to sidle up to at the next Washington insider coctail party. When she's given the cover of Time magazine in a supposedly alluring pose, something's seriously wrong with our media, not just the Republicans who racuously fete her awful hijinks.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous12:05 AM

    We need to use our energies more effectively to achieve our ends. Go out and care for the poor, lobby for reduced greenhouse emissions, do election work -- anything but debating with the insane sociopaths of the right one-on-one.

    This is without question the ALL-TIME DUMBEST COMMENT I HAVE EVER READ ON ANY BLOG.

    Democrats should stop trying to make arguments about why Republicans are corrupt and dishonest and hypocritical and wrong - and instead should go do charity work and hand out fliers.

    Seriously, sometimes I think Democrats deserve to lose if this is how stupid they are.

    "Don't debate them. It only gives them added credibility. Go work at a soup line instead."

    Is that a caricature?

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous12:11 AM

    Well, Ronnie, perhaps you can explain what positive effect the debates with pmain and hypatia here have achieved? After all, all of us here ALREADY KNOW "why Republicans are corrupt and dishonest and hypocritical and wrong" -- who are we reaching by holding this debate here? Working on a soup line would certainly be a better use of one's time and energy, but it wasn't the only option I suggested. For the source of dumb comments and stupidity, try introspection.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous12:13 AM

    Unfortunately, the jist of Coulter's comments is becoming mainstream within the RWNM.
    A couple of nights ago Medved, guesting with Praeger on Hugh Hewitt's show claimed that 25% of the world wide Muslim population was 'radicalized', with a further 50% waiting in the wings.
    There was no analysis of this, no enlightening facts, in fact Medved just seemed to pull these figures from the inner recesses of his backside, but the message to their ditto masses is as clear as Coulter's, albeit wrapped in more eloquent languge.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous12:15 AM

    Who the hell ever heard of Ward Churchill before the theofascists needed a whipping boy to rile up their cult?

    Pmain is now gonna act like O’reily isn’t another propagandist for the new right conservatism that is lying our nation into hell. Haha Did you get the grape or cherry?

    So you figure when O’LIAR goes into the voting booth he wonders what he’s going to do? My Lord man, he is one your key deceivers. Millions buy into his propaganda every night. The man makes a living INTENTIONNALLY deceiving the cult of conservatism.

    Look at the rationalizations to cover for the group identity in this thread. You function as a cult even if you don’t understand because you are uniformed on how a cult operates. The similarities are overwhelming to anyone who knows anything about the subject.

    Speaking of cults, I see no one took a swing at Ned’s post calling the right out for working with the Moon organization in its effort to subvert the constitution.

    Moon isn’t the elephant in the room, he’s the elephant trainer in the room.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous12:17 AM

    What about Orin Kerr? Doesn't come out against Yoo. Can any one educate me about Kerr's basic political philosophy?

    Is he someone with whom Glenn Greenwald generally agrees?

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous12:18 AM

    Who's Ward Churchill?

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous12:24 AM

    P.S. to Ronnie:

    Seriously, sometimes I think Democrats deserve to lose if this is how stupid they are.

    The relevant thing that we can lose is elections. Among my suggestions was "do election work". Now really, Ronnie, which is more effective in preventing an election loss, doing election work, or arguing with some lying imbecilic Republican sociopath in a comments section with nearly 200 comments, where only a handful of people will ever see what you wrote? It's a matter of cognitive dissonance -- you've wasted huge amounts of your time on blogs, but you don't want to face it, so you call my rather obvious comments stupid. But it's something I've faced, enough to recognize that this very comment is a waste of my time (but it just might reach a few people).

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous12:28 AM

    Unfortunately, the jist of Coulter's comments is becoming mainstream within the RWNM.
    A couple of nights ago Medved, guesting with Praeger on Hugh Hewitt's show claimed that 25% of the world wide Muslim population was 'radicalized', with a further 50% waiting in the wings.


    I don't think you can pin this on Coulter; Medved was a hateful fascist racist before she was born.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous1:01 AM

    Joe at Dartblog sez: Greenwald has embarked on a terribly misguided and sophomoric crusade

    Heh. Joe Malchow is a college sophomore.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous1:01 AM

    “I have never argued that Ann Coulter isn’t either a conservative or a commentator, much less a member of the Republican Party. Her appeal doesn’t make her an official part of the Republican Party, which was my point.”

    I’m sorry, but her “official” status is irrelevant. Do huge numbers of conservatives support her and cheer her or not? Since the answer is clearly “yes,” then the second question must be: why? This is the key issue to me. Now, clearly, your support is lukewarm at best. However, there are others who will defend the things that she says, and do so quite vociferously.

    I’ll shed some light on my own concerns, because it may be instructive. I am NOT a member of the GOP, nor would I ever be considered “conservative” by today’s standards. So, when I hear the kind of rhetoric coming from people like Ann Coulter, saying that liberals should be killed for their political views, well, I’ll be honest, it creeps me out. Now, it wouldn’t really bother me except for the fact that, YES, she has a ton of “mainstream support.” When the “mainstream” endorses her, to me, they are endorsing the awful things she has said about ME and my family, and other people like me. I have a big problem with it. No matter how you slice it, she is considered a prominent member of the conservative movement. That is distressing.

    I’ve heard some people say that she is the right-wing answer to Michael Moore, but I have never heard Moore use the kind of eliminationist rhetoric that is becoming increasingly commonplace amongst the right wing talking heads. Official or not, people like Rush, Coulter, Savage and the rest clearly appeal to conservative voters, and my question is why?

    “I’m not bothering to answer the Ward Churchill stuff, I’d suggest read my other comments above or the author’s original post – something several responders to me have apparently failed to do.”

    The Churchill thing is so simple, it doesn’t need a response. If the left has to condemn him, then the right should be forced to condemn Coulter, who is a much more prominent figure in the conservative movement than Churchill will ever be in what would laughably referred to as the “progressive movement.”

    Personally, I don’t need a verbal condemnation. I want to see people stop buying her books and listening to her speeches, because they are filled with such hateful rhetoric. It is not my place to force them to do this, but I am allowed to condemn THEM for their apparent identification with her views.

    No response necessary.

    “I am not trying to be dismissive, I am tired of repeating myself w/ people who are either too lazy or haven’t spent the time read the context in which I am arguing – so please do not take this personally. If I have to type my point again, I’m afraid I may go mad. As far as Ann’s popularity, I fail to see the point or how that affects the arguments I have placed.”

    Her popularity is entirely the point -- why is she so popular? Is it because most conservatives really DO advocate liberals being killed? I find this hard to believe, but what else can it be?

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous1:08 AM

    what's up?

    Not much but my ire!

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous1:37 AM

    Now, down to business, Hypatia: Both I and another here have asked what it is, exactly, that merits Moore's shunning

    Well, you think a President's embracing Michael Moore and inviting him to his party's nominating convention is nothing. Whoever is the GOP nominee in '08 hopes your judgment prevails. As for my specific views on Moore, search my handle and Moore at this site. You will get a payload. I'm not reresearching it and reposting in this thread. It has been done to death.

    Then there was this: Since folks like Hypatia (and Reynolds) are apparently insane -- unable to tell right from wrong -- little is achieved by debating them. There are numerous better ways to use your time and energy.

    I'll just let that speak for itself.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous1:57 AM

    Hypatia:

    "Well, you think a President's embracing Michael Moore and inviting him to his party's nominating convention is nothing. Whoever is the GOP nominee in '08 hopes your judgment prevails. As for my specific views on Moore, search my handle and Moore at this site. You will get a payload. I'm not reresearching it and reposting in this thread. It has been done to death."

    I'm sorry; is there a way to search the comments? Because I tried looking up your past comments, and only got two results, neither of which dealt with Moore.

    I'm more interesting in hearing something Moore has said that is equivilant to the things Coulter has said about killing liberals. Actually, an even better example is Michael Savage; although his audience is considerably smaller, he says even worse things. Has Moore said anything of the sort?

    If he has, I will be happy to condemn him for it. I just haven't seen it, and I tend to be wary of Republican characterizations of Democrats; I mean, the image of Dr. Dean I got from watching him speak was vastly different than what I got watching Hannity talk about him!

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous1:58 AM

    At lgfwatch we ask how Reynolds can avoid making the same "pro-turrist" argument about his employer, Charles Johnson.

    http://lgfwatch.blogspot.com/2006/02/question-for-glenn-reynolds.html

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous2:10 AM

    Hypatia said...

    5. markos zuniga (daily kos) angrily denounced mercenaries in iraq. he did not denounce US soldiers.
    That makes me simply sick, and really quite angry. Those "mercenaries" are civilian
    contractors and United States citizens who were mother-fucking beheaded on video-tape by the Islamic enemies of this nation.


    Let's unload some of the emotional implications from the term 'mercenary' and call these guys soldiers-for-hire. These soldiers-for-hire work for private security companies, and are not all in fact American citizens, but soldiers from countries in South America, South Africa, among other places. This certainly complicates matters -- what should the rules of engagement be for these people? Who are they accountable to, the company that hired them or the US Govt? Expressing concern over the use of these guys should not be cause for labelling anyone a terrorist sympathizer.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous2:47 AM

    "Since folks like Hypatia (and Reynolds) are apparently insane -- unable to tell right from wrong -- little is achieved by debating them. There are numerous better ways to use your time and energy."

    I'll just let that speak for itself.


    It speaks for itself whether you let it or not, you pathetic cretin.

    ReplyDelete
  188. Anonymous2:48 AM


    I'm sorry; is there a way to search the comments? Because I tried looking up your past comments, and only got two results, neither of which dealt with Moore.


    One thread went on for at least 100 posts. Mostly me about Moore. Glenn, can you explain why this person mifght not be finding that?

    ReplyDelete
  189. Anonymous2:59 AM

    This is a blog for those who care about what he writes. You should go find a blog where you care what the blogger writes and don't need to ask why.

    Gee, thanks. You mean this is Glenn Greenwald's blog? Wow, I had no idea.

    No, my question is, why is Glenn Greenwald so special? He's getting the kind of blog audience that only a few bloggers achieve after blogging for a year or two or three. Why has he gotten such success in three months? Who is he? Is he some famous dude that I just happen to have never heard of? Is he just really well-connected in the media world somehow, and is able to get the attention of all the bigtime bloggers, who then link to him?

    The response that said Greenwald writes thoughtful posts isn't very satisfying. Lots and lots of bloggers out there write thoughtful posts, if you just look for them. But they don't start getting 13,000 hits a day after three months.

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous3:05 AM

    The response that said Greenwald writes thoughtful posts isn't very satisfying.

    And yet that's the reason, so any lack of satisfaction is a consequence of your poor perceptual and analytical abilities.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous3:11 AM

    Is he just really well-connected in the media world somehow, and is able to get the attention of all the bigtime bloggers, who then link to him?

    See, here's where your analytical faculties fail. He links to them, and writes incisively about them ... which leads them to respond. Do this consistently over several months and high volume is a likely outcome.

    ReplyDelete
  192. pmain:

    Bill O’Reilly as you know is now a registered Independent, just like me.

    Oh, really? IIRC, O'Reilly had claimed at one other time to be an "independent", and then some enterprising folks went out and dragged up voter registration records to prove him a liar (once again, how surprising....)

    So now he's claiming to be an "independent" again, eh? And you too? I take it you follow the O'Reilly credo.....

    LOL. Better trolls, please, Glenn....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  193. Anonymous3:39 AM

    Well, you think a President's embracing Michael Moore and inviting him to his party's nominating convention is nothing.

    Once again, for the reading impaired, President Carter neither embraced Michael Moore, nor invited him to his party's nominating convention. Hint: Search engine. Yanno?

    As to Kos, the idiocy here was first propagated by someone else.

    To anyone who wants to know what Kos actually said, and his own explanation for it, go here.

    I'm neither defending nor criticizing Markos for his comment. I only pointed out the outright lie of the original poster, and the subsequent misrepresentations.

    ReplyDelete
  194. Hypatia:

    Thanks for the reply.

    [Arne]: Now, down to business, Hypatia: Both I and another here have asked what it is, exactly, that merits Moore's shunning

    Well, you think a President's embracing Michael Moore and inviting him to his party's nominating convention is nothing.

    Yes. Particularly when the whole rest of the Democratic leadership avoided him at the convention like he had leprosy. I'd say that Carter's offer to give him a seat was ... the Christian thing to do. ;-)

    Whoever is the GOP nominee in '08 hopes your judgment prevails.

    Their bad judgement is not my concern. Moore is hardly an unpopular person, despite the concerted efforts of those in the Republican Noise Machine spewing the RNC "talking point" made of lies and deceit ... ring a bell there, Hypatia? Moore's movies and books are widely read and viewed. And while you might think that Moore is Satan's Second Lieutenant, that hardly means that this slime job will actually stick.

    As for my specific views on Moore, search my handle and Moore at this site.

    No thanks. Just give me one thing about Moore that really ticks you off. One. One at a time, and we can go through them and dispel your fears in an orderly albeit tedious fashion. You'll sleep better inthe end, trust me....

    You will get a payload.

    Ummm... I've already gotten a ... "payload", is it? ... seems to me that word should be starting with "s".... from you, as you went spewing the RNC "slime line" about Moore and the Democratic convention. I can hardly wait for the restof your blockbusters, but, tell you what, dispense them one at a tikme so that we may dispence with them as well, without getting too bogged down in "red herrings", obfuscation, and snow jobs thrown up to try to muddle the discussion. Fair 'nuff?

    I'm not reresearching it and reposting in this thread....

    What's the problem? Can't you just pop up your old "talking points" memos?

    It has been done to death.

    Indeed. But I want to see if you can do better this time. One point at a time, OK?

    Cheers,

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  195. Has anyone else noticed a sharp turn towards authoritarian cultism, as regards Bush followers?

    Ann is but an extreme example of this cult of personality.

    boilerman10

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  196. Anonymous3:52 AM

    I read the entire thread and two things struck me. None of the dissenters will address the two basic points that Glenn makes (no need to rehash them) and none of the dissenters will answer the question about why hateful eliminationist rhetoric is so embraced by the right.

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  197. Anonymous3:56 AM

    Hypatia, I read your comments with sadness at your closed-minded desperation to cling to any shred of "proof" that sustains your comforting world view that Bush is a hero, Glenn Reynolds is above reproach, and that Michael Moore is the devil. How frightened you must be. I pity you.

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  198. Anonymous:

    No, my question is, why is Glenn Greenwald so special? He's getting the kind of blog audience that only a few bloggers achieve after blogging for a year or two or three. Why has he gotten such success in three months?

    I think someone told you already. But I'll reiterate for the brain-dead here. Glenn writes intelligently and with precision and clarity (and an immense amoutn of knowledge on the subjects he chooses to address). He doesn't get bogged down in partisan sniping and instead addresses the ideas directly. And, perhaps most importantly, he puts time and effort into his writing, and keeps his blog informative, focused, and up-to-date.

    If you think you have what it takes, a Blogger site is yours for just a few clicks. Good luck ta ya, but from what I've seen, you're hardly perceptive enough to even manage a few spambots' attention.

    Just a FYI: I don't feel nearly as constrained as Glenn WRT pointing out the shortcomings of the "argumentation" and "discourse" from the right ... and in slightly less analytic terms. But I'll let Glenn carry on the excellent job he's doing ... and spend my time blowing the trolls that come here to try and harass him out of the water. *BOOM*

    Cheers,

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  199. re: Markos and Daily Kos.

    As I see it, there is more than just a little professional jealousy on the part of the authoritarian cult cons.

    Kos is bigger and reaches more folks then the cons do by a factor of 5!

    Add in Atrios, John Aravosis, Digby, Glenn Greenwald, FDL, and say, Roger Ailes and the left blogosphere squashes the righties.

    Arthur, Ezra, and Wolcott have no equal on the right whatsoever.

    Why?

    Because of message control, splitting word parsing hairs, and the tendency of the cons to accept top-down dictation, especially this new collection of authoritarian cultists masquerading as "conservatives."

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  200. Dr. Lim, I disagree with you about Michael Moore and "facts." A visit to Moore's site shows a "facts" section for F/9-11.

    All I see from cons is posture, frumpy smears, cheap character assassination, and general harumphing.

    Moore's sin is not because of so many factual errors nearly as much as just being the first to dent the Bush mystique deeply, and embarrass the incompetent lout, it should be a given that Moore will be castigated and slandered.

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