A few "blogging-about-the-blog" items:
(1) I’ve alluded several times to what I hope and believe will be a meaningful and significant project I have started working on relating generally to the radical theories of power seized by the Bush Administration and the profound threats it poses to the core principles on which our country is based. I’m sorry to be so cryptic and Dick Cheney-ish about it, but I still can’t announce the project (as much as I want to) until everything is ready – which should be by the middle of this week or at the end of this week at the latest. I raise it now despite not yet being able to meaningfully talk about it for two reasons:
(a) For the next three weeks or so, it’s necessary that I devote a considerable amount of time to that project and, as a result, I need to reduce (at least somewhat) the amount of time I devote to this blog (which isn’t going to be easy, since I appear to have developed a raging blogging addiction, but I'll be strong). I will still try to post every day, but I will probably have to post shorter items, not be able to participate in the comments threads as actively, not be able to post on every development, etc.
In order to ensure that the blog stays active and vibrant over this period, and particularly to ensure that the blog continues to provide comprehensive analysis of the NSA scandal, I am going to have a couple of excellent guest bloggers whose identities are not yet fully known (another exciting announcement to look forward to) post here during this period At least one of them will post everyday exclusively on the NSA scandal (and related issues), while the other will post on all issues. I probably will also periodically have guest posts from regular commenters here.
(b) I am in need of one or two persons to work with me on this project, primarily to research certain matters. It wouldn’t require a huge amount of time - probably 5 hours a week or so. Whoever wants to do it ought to be motivated by the desire to work on a project devoted to increasing public understanding of just how radical and dangerous this Administration really is, rather than motivated by financial compensation (there may be a small stipend that can be paid, but there also may not be; that has to be worked out).
If you are interested, please contact me by e-mail, let me know generally what your time constraints are and just a little bit about your professional background/current situation. All that’s really required is a basic understanding of the issues discussed most frequently on this blog, some decent research skills, and a desire to have the ideas and arguments that have been generated on this blog regarding the Administration's excesses and abuses reach a lot more people in order to maximize their impact.
(2) Yesterday, in response to a large number of requests from regular readers here, I asked one commenter who was posting in what I believed was an extremely disruptive manner, often between 15 and 20 times in each thread on matters having nothing to do with the topic of the posts, to restrict his comments to one comment per post in order to minimize the disruption. My views about the comments section from the beginning is that I want it to be composed of all views, including ones that are the opposite of mine, and I would never ban or restrict anyone due to their viewpoint, only for being deliberately disruptive.
I previously described my views of comment sections here, and explained my specific rationale for this particular action here. Many of you disagree, and I can’t say you’re without good arguments. I’ve made those same arguments myself many times and in many other contexts, and if I were a participant here, I’d probably be making them now. As I said, I did this very reluctantly and with ambivalence, and I am not entirely sure it was the right thing to do, but on balance, I obviously concluded that it was.
I don’t think anyone can fairly claim that this action was viewpoint-based, and I know that it wasn’t. There are numerous other commenters besides the one who was restricted who express views that are the opposite of mine and/or who are uniformly pro-Bush. They comment prolifically and continue and can continue to do so without any restriction. This restriction was applied only to one person who, in my view, contributed nothing to the discussion and, for various reasons, degraded the quality of the comment threads.
I’m familiar with all of the arguments as to why it’s better to ignore people who are disruptive than restrict them, why this can be a slippery slope, etc. I would ask anyone wanting to discuss this matter (and I created this thread because many people seemed to want to discuss and I requested that it wait so that the First thread didn’t get overwhelmed by this topic) to consider and address these questions:
(a) As a general proposition, is it possible for someone’s conduct and intent to be so disruptive, and so inconsistent with worthwhile discsussions, that it becomes legitimate to restrict ban or them? Or should everyone and anyone be free to post however they want, no matter their conduct, their frequency of posting, their refusal to post on matters relating to the posts, the extent of their disruption, etc.? If you recognize the justifiability of some type of restriction in some instance, what is the standard?
(b) While it’s true that one can ignore a disruptive commenter, it’s simply reality that many people won’t. When someone comes here and sees empty, trite pro-Bush talking points that are devoid of substance but are childishly insulting and fundamentally false, it is difficult for many people to avoid answering them. New commenters in particular reflexively do so.
All of that easily results in the comment section being flooded with the standard pro-Bush/anti-Bush food fights that one can find anywhere on the Internet, rather than worthwhile, substantive discussions. People who want to have a substantive discussion of issues can’t and won’t because they can’t wade through all the junk. Does that matter? Is it legitimate to take steps to maintain the quality of the Comments discussion at a high level, and if so, what steps can be taken?
(c) If, for whatever reasons, a particular commenter’s behavior is extremely bothersome to the person who operates the blog – to the point where the person who operates the blog actually finds it bordering on unpleasant to venture into his own comment section – is that something which can legitimately be taken into account or serve as the basis for restricting or banning someone?
(d) What’s the purpose of the comments section at this blog or blogs generally? Is it to provide a wide-open, free-for-all conversation for anyone on the Internet, or does it have a narrower or more specific function?
I don’t know of any blogs, especially ones with large numbers of comments, which haven’t restricted or deleted comments (I’m not saying they don’t exist, just that I don’t know of any). Most large pro-Bush blogs don’t even allow comments, and the ones which do (again, that I know of) delete comments and ban participants. The action I took was short of banning anyone and, given my preference for a diverse comments section, is something I expect will be extremely rare.
One last point: one of the things I have to come like best about this blog is the quality of the discussion in the comment section. I almost always learn things about whatever topic I post about by reading the comment sections to the post. Beyond that, having very informed and substantive people contribute to the comments section helps the blog enormously. I found the Reid and Frist letters, for instance, as a result of a commenter at the end of a thread on Friday posting the link to those letters. For those reasons, it's more important to me than I would have anticipated it would be to maintain the quality of the comment section and to prevent it from degrading into low-level insult fests involving the reptitious exchange of generic political slogans.
(3) Voting for the annual Wampum blog awards has begun. Most blogs that you like are probably nominated somewhere in one of the 15 categories. This blog has been nominated in the Best New Blog and Best Writing categories. As anyone with a blog knows, maintaining a blog requires a lot of time and anyone who does it is devoting a lot of their energy to it. Especially for a lot of the great blogs which get less attention than they deserve, and there a lot of those, these awards are a good way to provide some positive and gratifying feedback. To vote in any category, you just leave a comment in that particular thread.
I go both ways on the banning issue, although i know you didn't ban anyone. I do have concerns that it can become excessive and i generally think unregulated converstaion is better. Then again, people can on purpose ruin conversations by being jerks or purposely provoking people into petty fights.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, i think its about enforcement. As long as it stays rare and applied only to exceptional cases, as youve said it would, it won't be a problem. It will probably help matters. It only becomes a problem, in my opinion, when it starts to aim at eliminating certain views.
Hey Glenn you also have a couple of entries in the "Best Post" category. I voted for the following one myself.
ReplyDeleteUnclaimed Territory by Glenn Greenwald: Bush's Unchecked Executive Power v. the Founding Principles of the U.S.
"meaningful and significant project"
ReplyDeleteImpeachment?
I can dream:)
Hi Glenn,
I try but I can't understand why every patriot in America isn't demanding the impeachment of the entire Bushisht administration. Loudly and daily.
Take care, Jan
Love your blog. I do occasionally engage the trolls here, and I should restrain myself. Nothing encourages these people like response to thier efforts at being clever. (stiumulus -response stimulus response, don't you ever think?! h/t Gary Larson)
ReplyDeleteI agree that many of the conversations in the comments are great and very imformative. your coverage of the NSA & Bush abuse of power issues are outstanding. Thus the trolls.
Half a dozen determined disruptors can ruin a comment section. You're very lucky If you've only got one Gedaliya.
ReplyDeleteI'm of the opposite opinion on this issue. If you want your comment threads to work, you have to work on them. Play it by ear and do what works best. I doubt that the honor principle will work for long.
And no, if you ignore them they don't go away.
Theresa Nielson Hayden has a good thing about comment moderation:
Comment Moderation.
I have a teeny blog,and I'm not so nice,lol.Perhaps it comes from personal experience,my parents have disowned me and my kids(and my grandkids)over politics and religion.I got tired of being ridiculed,called names and otherwise de-railed by talking points and just plain mean shit being slung at me.So on my teeny blog I'm not so patient.
ReplyDeleteLast year I wrote a piece for the Press Action website about free speech,and a few guys took that comments thread and totally hijacked it with pro war hoo rah stuff,then the anti war guys(and it was an all male conversation) jumped in and the whole discussion I wanted to start never happened.My voice was minimized and stomped out.So much for my free speech.I won't even go into the nasty emails flooding my inbox every day in an effort to get me to quit writing.
I think when a blog becomes as noticed as this one is that it's very important to get alot of people looking at topics from every angle,pro and against.We won't learn alot otherwise.
But when someone purposely has a pattern of veering the discussions off course,becomes abusive,or otherwise begins taking away from the discussion,de-railing it in effect,then it's probably time to step in and call them on it and take steps to end that or at least cut it down some.This is a very common set of tactics the neocons and their enablers use,and then they cry foul about their free speech being curtailed.Then you,as the keeper of the blog get put into a damned if you do or don't position.
For what it's worth,I think you did the right thing Glenn.I like this blog because it encourages me to think about the issues and problems being discussed and look at many different opinions which I then look at separately before making up my own mind.We need more of that in this country,not less.When someone sets out to interfere in that process it blurs the line of what free speech actually means.Just because you're the loudest or most obnoxious person in the room doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.Or right.But it does stop the conversation and that's precisely what those tactics are meant to do.That shouldn't be allowed to stand if you believe in what you're doing.
General Wesley Clark on This Week just now being interviewed by George Stephanopoulous:
ReplyDeleteGen. Clark: "We need real Congressional investigations into the NSA spying matter."
As Unclaimed Territory becomes more influential and important on the Internet, the Reactionary Right will systematically attempt to dilute its effectiveness any way they can.
ReplyDeleteAn influential blog effectively opposing the administration and educating people about what is really happening in the country is a grave threat to the Reactionary Right. You make them apoplectic with rage.
One of their available strategies is to crap up the comments sections of worthwhile blogs, to discourage new readers and serious commenters, and to try to make the site look like a circus.
As soon as a Reactionary Rightwinger begins making multiple, unoriginal, taunting, off topic or extraneous posts, they should be banned immediately. They are here to destroy, not communicate, and should not be indulged for a moment.
regarding your concerns over how to handle your comments section, i think the answer lies in what sort of forum you view your blog to be.
ReplyDeletesome people think of a blog like a big town-hall meeting, everyone's welcome and can share whatever they feel is important. sure, you usually get the crazy cat-lady from down the street who complains about some imagined plot against her, but everyone knows her and just laughs it off. in this type of setting where everyone can say their piece, individuals are given a limit on the time for their comments, and the number of trips to the podium. proceedural rules are imposed to maintain order.
other people imagine their blogs like a great cocktail party. the best discussions come from having people of different perspectives engaging each other. but in that case you are the host and they are your guests. as the host, if a guest is behaving rudely, it is not only your right but your responsibility to the other guests to maintain a civil atmosphere. and if that means you have to give someone their coat and show them the door, then so be it.
so, it's up to you, town meeting or cocktail party. either way, despite the appealing idea that the comments section should be free of any restrictions, the truth is that in any setting some sort of structure is necessary to avoid chaos.
Glenn, I think you have taken the right course on Gedaliya. If a comment states an opposing view on the subject of the post, I'm all for it. It adds to the discussion and allows everyone the opportunity to view an issue through different perspectives. Unfortunately, Gedaliya's responses were not on topic and were only meant to disrupt the discussion.
ReplyDeleteI'd intended to take you to task for restricting gedaliya, as I think defending free speech always trumps any kind of restrictions of it. I have no problem reading the comments and staying with the substantive thread of the discussion. The only truly annoying posts are the ones by the anonymous poster who calls people morons. It's hard to imagine the smoky friction of cognitive dissonance within that poster's brain not finally bursting into flames.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your explanation for taking the action you did I've changed my mind. If we want to have serious discussions about particular subjects, letting things devolve to "food-fights" truly does tend to derail the discussion, at least insofar as we can't get into any truly complex territory that requires following an argument that has some degree of detail to it. Once the discussion becomes generic left/right verbal fisticuffs you lose any possibilty of developing a particular discussion.
I also hadn't considered the proprietary nature of blogs in general, and the responsibilty it places on the blog creator to maintain any level of sophistication. It may be the case that i can imagine supporting a fairly restrictive comments section, as the free-for-all of completely unstructured comments guarantees the discussion will sink to the LCD of public discourse.
For one, I find myself turning off on some Comment threads when they become more food fights with trolls than substantive contributions, a la HuffPo. That's a shame.
ReplyDeleteAs the readership of this superb blogs grows and the Comment thread naturally grows with it, I think the flat format in use becomes a serious deterent to the best interactions between commenters. Although it would require a major overhaul of your site, I would recommend going to a customizeable format such as used by Daily Kos. The "threaded" format, in particular, allows one to view and keep straight the sub-threads as the arguments become more complex. Other advantages: allows each participant to identify the trolls and to tune out of (or engage in) the two-way manure spreading; allows rating each contribution (i.e., voting on perceived value to the community); allows late tuners-in to quickly review the temporal development of the arguments.
Such a site overhaul will probably take some serious bucks. If contributions from dedicated followers would be necessary—assuming this notion makes sense—then put out the word. I know I would be willing to chip in.
People who want to have a substantive discussion of issues can’t and won’t because they can’t wade through all the junk. Does that matter?
ReplyDeleteUnambiguously yes. I had to stop reading the comments sections of Huffington Post, because even though there were some interesting posts with good links which I found informative, I couldn't wade through the awful stuff, which predominates. It was very depressing, and why depress myself?
It's not only a good idea for a blog host who wants to promote serious discussion on his blog to keep control of things, it's mandatory.
I also agree certain "anons" should go, like the ones who call others idiots. After all, how much longer does it take to check the "other" button and select a short name, and hit Submit? If it were possible to have a blog which didn't have the "anonymous" feature, and made a person select a tag before he posted, I would think that would be better.
If it were my blog, the second or third time a person called someone else a name like moron or idiot (as opposed to saying an argument is idiotic, which I think is ok) I'd block that poster. Isn't it possible to block a specific email address? I read that it was.
You're doing the right thing, Glenn. You cannot allow your "property", this blog, to be stolen from you any more than you would let someone take your car.
Finally, angry old broad, I have noticed some posts by you in the last few weeks, I can't even remember where, and every time I've seen one, I've always benefited from it. I hope you post here more.
Either deliberate sabotage or a few energetic prima donnas can ruin a comments thread. Glenn should expect this problem to come up again.
ReplyDeleteThe basic rule is just that if a commenter does significantly more harm than good, for any reason, he should be cut off.
A wide range of views is a good thing. Glenn has no obligation to tolerate anyone here, though, any more than he has an obligation to invite anyone into his living room. This is his place.
I agree with both your initial reluctance to take any action to restrict comments, and with the action you have now taken. It's valuable to have opposing points of view, when advanced in good faith (and it's good to be reminded that there are people of intelligence and integrity who don't necessarily agree with one's own conclusions); and it's even good to have the occasional look at the arguments that are being advanced in bad faith.
ReplyDeleteBut there is such a thing as the heckler's veto. On the internet, it can't take the form of chanting to drown out a speaker, but comments trolling can work almost as well, and it's a disservice to everyone to allow it. At some point a speaker has to get security to clear out the chanters, or else invite one (and only one) on stage to debate his views honestly, and at some point a blogger will probably have to start restricting comments from known trolls. To do otherwise isn't to respect their free speech rights, but to restrict the speech of everybody else.
I respectfully disagree with Stan about changing the format of this blog to something similar to Daily Kos.
ReplyDeleteHaving looked, at least once, at most of the important political blogs, I find this format to be the single best I have seen.
Keeping a lot of "junk" off the page, with all the Oprahish diversions, enables a person to maintain his train of thought as he reads and considers the arguments.
I think people who are seriously interested in the matters discussed on this blog come here once, and stay. They quickly pick up what's going on, and I don't think they need to be spoonfed in any way.
I strongly urge Glenn to keep the current format. I find everything about it perfect.
Finally, a poster here linked to another blog yesterday which I visited and found most interesting. That blog featured Glenn's yesterday post as the discussion. It is called The Moderate Voice.
I hope Glenn considers an alliance with that blog, the way he has one with FDL and thersites2, because the level of discussion there, although I've only been there once and could be wrong, seemed very civilized and the host appears to be quite an intelligent person with many of the same concerns as Glenn.
This is a tough one. Glendaliya is certainly your typical arrogant Bush supporter who favorite debate tactic is using red herrings.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I don't remember s/he using much name-calling, profanity, and his/her posts are mostly polite, though condecending.
So I like the nested comments idea. Then the food fight will decend into that subthread but the main thread can be easily read.
This is one of the best blogs on the internet, partly because it does attract many points of view. I hope it stays that way and not evolve into a "preaching to the choir" blog, like DailyKos. Now, I love Kos and have diaried there, read it everyday, and learn alot. But what is nice about this blog is the presence of so many views.
The issue of banning is a difficult one. I would seriously like to know whether lefty's troll the right wing blogs as much as the righties do here.
ReplyDeleteSometimes the points brought up are thoughtful and genuine but mostly they are about name-calling, diversion, and obfuscation, the standard "student body right" in the Gooper playbook.
I don't believe that obscenity should be tolerated nor should abusive commentary. The whole point is to have a serious discussion, not a food fight.
This blog has achieved notoriety for the high quality of reporting and analysis that Glenn has brought to bear. It does not seem too much to ask that the comments be held to some kind of reasonable standard.
Is it possible to have the "Collapse Comments" option be the default view? New readers would not need to be educated about the feature.
ReplyDeleteRick
Glenn, I am glad to see you take steps to keep your comments section clear and useful. Like others, I have been turned off from comments sections by the shallow descent into name-calling that seems to dominate--Kos always strikes me as a valuable blog that is de-valued by the tacky nature of the comments threads, for example.
ReplyDeleteYour blog is important. I encourage you to do what it takes to keep it at the highest level.
PS--using anon because I so very rarely comment!
On the other hand, I don't remember s/he using much name-calling, profanity, and his/her posts are mostly polite, though condecending.
ReplyDeleteI'm struck by how many people are more offended by someone saying poo-poo or calling someone an ass than by hijacking a thread or destroying the republic. Here's an excellent illustration:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/3/2/155813/8208/52
Just so you know
It's hard for me to forward things to my grandparents with the title WAKE THE FUCK UP.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/3/2/155813/8208/170
Perspective...
Although I do appreciate the irrational hold that language has over people, I find it somewhat disturbing that you didn't say:
It's hard for me to forward things to my grandparents that have pictures of dead children with their arms missing.
I mean, which is more disturbing? Which should be more disturbing?
Truth Machine,
ReplyDeleteYou said to me on the other thread:
"Get lost, scumbag, your trollery isn't wanted here. We know you as a crypto-fascist and Bush suckup ....that hypocritical slimebucket Alexandra banned me from her blog and deleted all my posts."
Yes I did, I don't allow disgusting language like that on my blog. The very fact that Glenn you are keeping silent, and do not even tell him to tone it down tells me everything. I am now a troll? Thank you Glenn.
This is what I talked about when I told you you have handed over control of your comments section to bullies who use derogatory language to attempt to intimidate. Unless you stand up and dissalow it, it will simply get worse and eventually put off the commenters you would like to keep.
A simple "tone it down" would let the person know how you feel about it. As it stands your silence condones it.
Traditionally, when election season is over, the winner became “our” government for better or worse. Our constitutional form of government was organized and pretty much operated with that “coming together” concept until Vietnam split us into two alternate universes. I believe that we are a substantially weaker country as a result of that split.
ReplyDeleteWe should all try to use the well-seasoned and time-honored conventions for political discussion that were developed to help us remain responsible loyal opposition. Once these conventions are dropped, and unfortunately to a large extent they have been, then partisanship gets out of control, to our communication detriment.
Gedalia lacks the discipline, intentionally or not, to limit her remarks and stay on subject without repetition. Because she hails from the right, these undesirable qualities scratch the blackboard with the host and most readers here. There are a couple of other commenters here who exhibit the same lacks, but who are being tolerated without complaint because, apparently, one cannot have too many repetitions and variations of “I hate Bush” and “the Bush Administration - those b*st*rds”. And do I need to mention the lengthy criticisms of Gedalia’s comments that boil down to: “You support Bush and I hate that.”
So, while you are setting goals for comments, please set one that limits chanting and whining.
While I'm a firm believer in the adage "never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience", that hasn't stopped me from engaging with the right on some issues. There is a site, www.chronwatch.com, where I was banned. My crime? They accused me of baiting, or being disruptive if you will.
ReplyDeleteIt was right after the NSA scandal broke and they were clamouring for the arrest of the leakers because of the damage to National Security caused by the leak. I asked them how National Security was damaged by the leak and, as a result of having read a lot of Armando's and Glenn's posts and after doing a little research of my own, I pointed out that the Supreme Court already ruled on presidential lawbreaking in Youngstown.
Throughout the week or so I was allowed to post there I was called all kinds of names, an act that clearly violated the posting policies that users agreed to prior to being granted the priviledge of posting there. They claimed I insulted veterans when I pointed out that Americans have been free for over 200 years regardless of who ruled Iraq or Vietnam.
To the question of posting in a comments section I would advocate for registered access only with terms of use that prohibit namecalling. Yes, I understand that this will lead to the need for someone to moderate the comments section, however I've seen comment sections where there is a button to report threads to the moderators.
Personally, I've been tempted to engage with the bushites who post here but I've not done so yet because I know it is a waste of my time to argue with people who are intentionally obtuse in order to maintain their ideology. I'm sure their awakening will be a rude one when it happens, and it will happen without me needing to discuss anything with them.
In my last I was trying to point out that moderation doesn't work if it's not done ethically. That I why I mentioned the actions of the right wing site.
ReplyDeleteGlenn said: "All of that easily results in the comment section being flooded with the standard pro-Bush/anti-Bush food fights that one can find anywhere on the Internet, rather than worthwhile, substantive discussions."
ReplyDeleteI agree with this general sentiment, but I would much prefer that you are using your time to continue writing your excellent blog entries. I would apply a few very simple rules and leave it at that:
1) Threats of any sort are never tolerated and result in a lifetime ban
2) Comment entries must be "on topic" - consistent off topic comments will result in first a warning and second a ban from the comments section.
Other than that, I would just leave it alone. Let all on topic opinions be expressed - no matter how repugnant.
Yes I did, I don't allow disgusting language like that on my blog. The very fact that Glenn you are keeping silent, and do not even tell him to tone it down tells me everything. I am now a troll? Thank you Glenn.
ReplyDeleteAlexandra - I didn't even see that comment from TM. And even if I had, it's hardly reasonable to assume that I agree with every comment which I don't condemn.
The last thing - the absolutely, positively last thing - I want to do is tell people how they should express themselves. I'm not anyone's daddy and don't want to be, and the last thing I'm going to do is sit here and tell people: "Hey, tone it down." I'm not a hall monitor and really don't want to be.
It is interesting that you lectured me about the evils of restricting Gedalyia's comments when, as it turns out, you ban people and delete their comments from your blog. You're not really in a position to condemn others for doing far less than that, are you? Someone here expressed the concern that I'd be accused of stifling free discussion or whatever but I knew that wasn't a concern because 99% of bloggers regulate their comment sections more than I do - and many of them, including some of the bloggers you most admire, don't allow comments at all.
Truth Machine has cursed at me before the way he just cursed at you - I think I got it even worse -but I still find him a valuable contributor. As long as someone isn't here with the deliberate intent to disrupt and with the effect of disrupting, they can express themselves here with whatever views they have and however they choose to express them.
As for all of the rest of the comments in the thread, I want to keep listening to what others have to say before responding - including Michael Gaelin's - but the comments have, as usual, been excellent.
I normally cringe when it comes to censorship, but after reading all the thought provoking comments, I've changed my mind about being an "absolutist", when it comes to free speech.
ReplyDeleteI can understand, why you would want to "moderate" the comments, if it were to derail the discussion, like I have seen on other blogs. If it's done only in special cases, then I can support that.
IIRC, Brownshirts were taught techniques for disrupting meetings of opposition groups. Although most of today's trolls seem to be self-appointed, the result can be the same.
ReplyDeleteUsing Blogger(tm) software, the only complete (and most efficient) way to preclude trolls is members-only commenting; but that shuts out too many from useful interaction and can discourage traffic. Many trolls register with Blogger; that is no help.
Blogger now lets you choose moderation of all comments before posting, or emails the blogger with the content and nominal identity of each comment as posted. Both can be time-consuming.
Some other software, I think, allows banning by IP address, but a determined troll can use a proxy. Not to say various methods of discouragement are not effective to various degrees.
We all can benefit from a challenging comment that raises a related point not addressed in the original post. Repetition of the same point, however, is an obstreperous attempt at takeover of someone else's place. A reasonable amount of back-and-forth is OK if remarks are limited to rebuttal of new points in the previous comment.
Here, Glenn or any member-administrator he appoints is the judge; and, unlike the analogy, no person has to be in his courtroom.
I wrote a brief wry piece on this phenomenon, Partisan Parrots & Trolls.
Just went over to Wampum to vote for your blog, Glenn. You were not on the list of blogs, for Best Blog or Best Writing at the time I checked. I would still love to vote for this blog -- it's uniformly excellent. Please advise.
ReplyDeleteCarolynC said...
ReplyDeleteJust went over to Wampum to vote for your blog, Glenn. You were not on the list of blogs, for Best Blog or Best Writing at the time I checked. I would still love to vote for this blog -- it's uniformly excellent. Please advise.
Glenn's nomination for best writing is under the blog's name, not Glenn's so look for "Unclaimed Territory" there. And the blog is nominated for Best New Blog (not Best Blog) under that name, as well. Hope that helps.
Glenn and all,
ReplyDeleteApologies to all for going off topic, but since Glenn clearly reads comments this seems to be an efficient way to communicate with him.
Notwithstanding the other demands on your time that you noted in the post to which this comment thread pertains, I would be extremely interested in hearing your take on the District Court's recent opinion in Arar. So far, it seems that only Balkinization has picked up on this extraordinary piece of "judicial reasoning."
Glenn,
ReplyDelete"It is interesting that you lectured me about the evils of restricting Gedalyia's comments when, as it turns out, you ban people and delete their comments from your blog. You're not really in a position to condemn others for doing far less than that, are you? "
No it is not interesting. I have given my specific reasons above as to why I have banned and deleted his abusive comments, and whilst you have now made it clear that you allow them on your blog, it does not diminish the fact that we disagree what the parameters of banning should be. And yes am in a position to condemn you because you did not ban him because of foul and abusive language.
In view of you banning Gedaliya, your comment:
"The last thing - the absolutely, positively last thing - I want to do is tell people how they should express themselves."
does not make sense, as you have banned a perfectly polite and reasonable commenter who has made valuable contributions, on the basis that he posts 20 comments in a thread of 200? I have seen that many, and more from several commenters here.
You are saying that TM has called you worse names (I think your memory fails you there) than I have quoted above, and that he is a valuable commenter.
To me your reasoning is completely upside down, but yes it is your blog and absolutely your call. As it is mine to voice my opinion of it.
As I said I misunderstood you to be someone who would not allow abusive comments on his thread, and I was wrong. I still stand by what I said regarding the fact that your comments section will deteriorate if you allow it. I also stand by the fact that Gedaliya is not a troll, far from it.
Alexandra, Glenn has not banned Gedaliya, but merely imposed upon him/her a requirement that each post he/she offers make only one point. Gedaliya has, apparently, bowed out of his/her own accord.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is regrettable, and on such an excellent blog as Glenn's, one expects (and wants) to see diversity of opinion and vigorous debate. There is no reason Gedaliya cannot still contribute to such discussion here, and she/he can blame only his/her own posting behavior here for the stricter requirements now imposed.
I mean, look: we have here a whole comment section revolving around one of Glenn's posters, rather than around issues of public policy, which should be the point of this blog. This demonstrates how much the focus can be moved from the pertinent to the impertinent when one does not require some degree of, uh, "sticking to the point."
I wonder--as Glenn hasn't brought it up--if Gedaliya or any other posters who might potentially put themselves in the same spot through prolonged discourtesy in their comments could ever be "pardoned," as it were, through a demonstration of their willingness to keep their comments on point. That is, would you, Glenn, ever remove your restrictions from Gedaliya if he/she showed, over time, the discipline to stick strictly to the topic under discussion in making comments?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view, I would favor a system similar to what SlashDot uses, where responses are grouped into threads and users can select what "depth" of threads will be displayed to them.
Coupling this with a "warn" option that lets users alert you (or moderators, if you chose to take that route) to posts by trolls could let you identify comments which violate a predetermined level of acceptability.
Of course, overall I favor not limiting the comments at all, as I prefer free speech filled with every crazy person's ranting to censored and sanitized speech any day of the week, regardless of how minimal that censorship may be.
Using comment threads by default may solve this issue more easily.
On the other hand, this is your personal page that Blogger (being the actual property owner as well as the intellectual property owner of the content management system) has given you the authority to moderate this blog as you see fit... and you should be allowed to use it in that manner.
Robert,
ReplyDeleteHe has as I said in effect banned him. I repeat, I know who this is and it is definitely a male, and certainly no troll.
It is extremely demoralizing and not conducive to a discussion to be limited to one comment, and Glenn knows that. It is insulting and unsuitable for online discourse and done to discourage him from ever commenting again.
I agree with Michael regarding anonymous commenters, as I said in my first post on the subject in the other thread when I voiced my disagreement.
Regarding choosing a name, whatever that name is and more importantly sticking to it, is a polite way to get to know each other and a form of respect to the other commenters as well as the owner of the blog. A form of disrespect is to be disruptive and post under different names, whilst being abusive.
This was the unpleasant experience I had, and I found no reason to tolerate it.
A blogger knows who the commenter is by his IP address which comes up with every comment, and by the location of that commenter. I am sure Glenn has Sitemeter which gives him all that information real time.
Although of course manning the blog is time consuming, and if you have no intention of giving guidelines to your commenters, pretty pointless.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI already expressed my opinion on banning or restricting commenters and the reasons for that opinion in the thread where this issue ffirst arose, so I won't repeat all that here. The gist of my opinion is that in general, I do not favor restricting or banning commenters, even the obnoxious trolls. Alexandra is dead wrong, by the way: not deleting rude posts or banning the poster does not in any way indicate that you condone what was said in that post. (I expressed my thoughts about Alexandra's other comments directly to her in the other thread, also, and will leave those thoughts where they are.)
On the other hand, I understand and appreciate your position and the points raised by other commenters who support a more restrictive policy. The most persuasive argument to me is that an excess of rude, deliberately disruptive, or completely off-point comment can be difficult to ignore. Your blog is really special and the discussions here are unique in both quality and intensity of the debates, which is why I, and I'm sure others, have been drawn into participating when I was never really inspired to do so at any other blog. Too many trolls certainly could conceivably really interfere with the great discussions you get going here, and that would be a shame.
On the other hand, as others have said, the problem is where to draw the line. Again I don't want to be repetitious, so I won't get into all that. The bottom line is that you've decided to draw some kind of line, and I think that's fine in light of everything you need to consider as host of this blog (I prefer that term to "owner," I think it's a more accurate description of what goes on here.) I don't know enough technically what the answer is, but others have given some good suggestions. The one thing I would be in favor of is at least getting rid of the "Anonymous" category of posting. I don't know if you want or need to go as far as requiring actual registration, but I do think that not asking for at least minimal identification such as a user name is just asking for trouble.
Kris C.
P.S.
As you can all see, I finally signed up for Blogger. I don't have anything in my alleged blog, and I don't know if I ever will, but I was starting to feel left out by not at least being an "official" Blogger!
Kevster asked about lefties trolling right wing blogs. I admit to commenting various times at Jeff Goldstein's place -- maybe six or seven time total on different threads -- before he blocked the email addy I was using. I never once used any profanity or insulting language. While blogging email is ineffective as a way of banning, it is by definition banning. In reading through everything that transpired with Glenn's commenter, I don't see that as banning at all.
ReplyDeleteI really don't want to tangle with Alexandra, but didn't she label Glenn as a "useful idiot" and was that really necessary to make the point?
It's important to understand that freedom of expression, however dear to an individual it may be as a concept, is not something that is in any way a fundamental human right in every specific venue out there.
ReplyDeleteWhile there are no analogies that will specifically describe blogging, you can say it is a lot like inviting people into your home for a tour. You show folks around, point out a few things you're proud of, let them see the lay out and the furnishings of where you live, give them an indication of what you think and how you feel about things. A blog with comment threads is like a home tour that ends in a comfortable living room, with an invitation to sit down and kick it for a while.
Nonetheless, neither the U.S. Constitution nor 'natural law' (whatever it may be) gives any individual the right to misbehave in your home with impunity. This is your blog; your place where you set out your thoughts, feelings, and points of view... your virtual 'home'. You do the work, you pay the bills (whatever they may be) and you make the rules.
Freedom of expression on the Internet means anyone can set up their own blog and say whatever they like. It does not mean that anyone can come onto someone else's blog and do the same. Your reputation, your lucidity, your background, your experience, your ability as a writer and as a political analyst... in short, your talent... has garnered you a very large audience and, naturally, less gifted, less well known folks out there love to tap into that audience and try to cut off a slice of the attention paid to you for themselves. That's fine; they contribute, they get attention, it all works out. But you have no responsibility to provide a platform for people who are only here to disrupt the civil functioning of your blog.
You've been a great deal more tolerant with certain sorts than I would be, or am, on my own blog. I have comment moderation enabled; those who come merely to troll never even see there comments appear on my threads, no matter how briefly. Of course, I don't get one percent of the commentary you get on every entry; I can see where comment moderation wouldn't work for you, you'd never have time to do anything else.
Glenn, thanks for all of your hard work.
ReplyDeleteThe goal itself is not disruption. Disruption is just a means of achieving the goal. The goal is to foster suspicion among current posters and dissuade new people from participating. The goal is to create an environment of intellectual inbreeding which creates lazy research and soft arguments.
If you believe that someone is sincerely trying to be disruptive, by banning them you are giving them a goal. They will come one after the other just to be banned. Lists of the banned will be kept and tabulated and used to "prove" your agenda.
The calls to limit anonymous posting, to ban specific posters and for newbies to "quit feeding the trolls" are predictable and misplaced solutions to very real problems.
The problems are 98% technical and organizational. Blogger.com is very rudimentary as far as "discussion" software goes. Some of the missing features are:
1) Collapsable Nested Discussion
This is the ability to group responses to a parent post. Example:
Post #1
---Response to Post #1
---Response to Post #1 (Post #2)
------Response to Post #2
---Response to Post #1
The benefits of this approach compared to the "long piece of paper" approach from blogger.com are huge. Readers don't have to search or read a whole discussion to follow one conversation and posters can reply to the exact comment they are interested in. This approach works with human nature instead of against it. Sub topics naturally become grouped together and information becomes self organizing within a particular discussion. The ability to collapse whole "off topic" threads or view just comment subject lines encourages more discussion and ideas by allowing quiet conversations in the corner that don't shout over other people.
2) Reader Filtering
The ability of a reader to filter the comments they see based on different criteria. The criteria could include posters name, date, number of sub posts or score. (see #3) For example, I may want to see all comments except for one specific poster. I may want to only see the comments of three specific posters within the last week.
3) Moderation vs. Censorship
Moderation is assigning a score or point total to a post either by the forum moderator, the participants themselves or a combination of both. Instead of posters being banned or limited and posts being deleted they are just moderated below the default view. They still exist but are forced to play in the basement away from the adults. Always one click away for those foolish and brave enough to stumble down the stairs.
I really don't think you need anything more than #1 right now. Nested comments would solve 95% of the issues. It is the difference between a dinner conversation and a cocktail party.
Now to address your very good questions.
(a) Of course it it possible for someone's behavior to cross the line and the decision is wholly your own to draw that line where you see fit. This is where moderation, especially user moderation, becomes so important. The ability of a community to keep the conversation on track by moderating repetitive, off topic and inflammatory comments below the default view allows the line to be etched in stone instead of sand. Banning should be for extreme behavior not for a thousand paper cuts.
(b) Nested comments and moderation solve this problem and brings out another one. People with less knowledge about the NSA issue than the regulars are going to get in the way in many ways. Redundant questions and a quick instinct to the lure are just a few characteristics of the "newbie", but some of these people will become your best posters. Nested comments lets people participate at their own speed and lets the teachers teach without getting in everyone's way. Newbies aren't going away. Every article you write brings more out of the woodwork and this a a good thing.
(c) User moderation solves most of this but remember a banning is not much more than a pronouncement. There are many ways to hide your originating IP address and if somebody wants to post they will post. Although you can delete them after the fact, there is very little you can do to stop a determined poster.
(d) If you have comments then you have a "wide-open, free-for-all conversation for anyone on the Internet" the question becomes what techniques you use to extract value for a specific function. See slashdot.org for a large site that does not delete comments and uses the above techniques to manage more trolls in a day than you will hopefully see in a lifetime.
In summation, I think you are doing a great job but I ask you to consider a technological approach instead of banning. If the breath of one lone wolf brings the house down then build a stronger house and invite them back for stress testing. Damn this is a long post.
"It is extremely demoralizing and not conducive to a discussion to be limited to one comment."
ReplyDeleteBut Baroness the blog no longer needs gediliya, since you have graced us. I admire you as much as Hugh Hewett, Ann Coulter, and Michelle Malkin combined.
Alexandra: You simply do not know what you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteTM has, in fact, called Glenn multiple foul names, and myself as well. TM is quite far left, and on at least one issue Glenn and I took a position that is typically considered conservative, having to do with the (in)applicability of international law to the decisions made by the United States. To say TM found our opinions outrageous, and that he went into quite the obscenity-laden temper tantrum, would be to understate.
Yet I did not ask for TM to be "disciplined," and Glenn did not prompt TM to "tone it down." That just isn't how it operates around here.
By contrast, I did publicly request of Glenn that he either ban Gedaliya, or limit him to one post per thread. My metric used for for reaching that request has nothing at all to do with whether Gedaliya was polite -- he always was.
Rather, I could see that no matter how often I or others suggested using the collapse comments feature to ignore Gedaliya, newcomers, or those who simply cannot resist being baited, were going to take Gedaliya's many baits. That would mean that virtually every single thread here would continue to be hijacked by Gedaliya's misdirections and diversions.
This blog, in addition to being a place where reasoned discussion takes place (sometimes), is also a site for political activism where plans are hatched and their implementation reported on by the community. We have a right to protect ourselves from a Bush fanatic and missionary, whose behavior was disruptive of the community's project. That behavior bothered me a lot more than TM's calling be a scumbag asshole, or whatever his terms of endearment were.
Finally, this isn't your blog. Your sense of what constitutes a proper rule does not apply here. Glenn's does -- and he is as laissez-faire as anything this side of Usenet.
I, too, grow misty remembering gems of arguments past where all opinions are respected...
ReplyDeletegedaliya said...
Before you get too overwhelmed in what appears to be a spastic Bush-Hate leftist frenzy, be advised that I'm alive and well around these parts and will comment on this or that issue when I am moved to do so.
I've been posting online for well over fifteen years, having started on dial-up BBS sites well before the advent of browser-based internet forums, and I'm not about to get scared away from expressing my views here or anywhere else by jejune insults from inarticulate bug-eyed gauleiters of the fever-swamp left.
A point made on a BBS network I was on years ago was "Users exist for the entertainment of the system operators". In short, it is your blog, and your rules. From all I have heard and read, some moderation is needed, simply because of the sort of users that you talk about. I like how slashdot.org does it (fully managed by the users, with scoring on how fair the moderators are, all handled by the system), I'm not sure how well that would work in a political blog though.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry about my poor typing and sorry that I had little to offer except that now that I think about it, Alexandra has not defended herself and so she must support the squelching of free speech . . . she seems to favor banning based on her own fiefdom as opposed to the broader territory that Glenn has "claimed."
ReplyDeleteI doubt she will come back and comment.
I'll go back to lurking -- I kind of like being a trickster -- unless I can't get it together to type :)
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteWhile I am always loathe to stifle a voice and one must always be most cautious in stifling a voice of dissent with one's own opinion, in this case I think you have made the right choice.
Freedom of speech issues are governmental in nature. Gedaliya has many other outlets for his/her viewpoint, so his voice is not being shut out completely; just from this site.
I find this site valuable for both your commentary and the discussion section. Gedaliya had the effect of significantly diminishing the quality of the discussion.
When measuring when to ban, I think the standard is the amount of damage done to the discussion vs. the importance of maintaining that persons input, with a heavy bias towards inclusion (i.e. the damage needs to me much greater than the value of the input).
Gedaliya was doing significantly more damage than the value of his/her posts and I think your measured response of allowing one post (not entirely stifling the voice) was a good one. Plenty of others remain who represent pro-Administration viewpoints and advance the discussion so we are not in danger of turning this into a discussion limited to a single viewpoint.
I think we (and particularly you) have given this far more consideration than it is worth. Please don't allow this issue to distract any further you from the far more important work you are doing.
Ok Alexandra, here goes.
ReplyDeleteI repeat, I know who this is and it is definitely a male, and certainly no troll.
That is your call on your blog, but what, or rather whom, you may identify as a troll or not is different here.
It is extremely demoralizing and not conducive to a discussion to be limited to one comment, and Glenn knows that. It is insulting and unsuitable for online discourse and done to discourage him from ever commenting again.
Puleese. I did not give up on commenting on Jeffy's blog because of his feeble attempt to do so. Stand up for the those who cave so easily because some who oppose your views disagree? If the one who was asked to only comment once has done so, is that not free will? What sort of weird world do you operate in?
Trolls will troll and find a way.
Hi Wintermute. I always enjoy reading your posts.
ReplyDeleteIncontrolados,
ReplyDelete"In reading through everything that transpired with Glenn's commenter, I don't see that as banning at all."
I don't think you are being fair there, and maybe need to put yourself in that position in order to understand it. So you put forward your argument and receive a reply and then what? You’re gagged. And everyone else isn’t. And you are surprised that one-comment-a-day hasn’t the exact effect as total banning – none of you apologists, not one of you, including Glenn, would ever make another comment; Gedalyia won’t either.
Anyone with any self-respect wouldn’t after being labeled a second-class community member. Glenn knows that. It’s all just window-dressing so as to justify being able to say “I haven’t banned, you know...”; I just want you all to engage in a thought-experiment: imagine you came across this thread on a conservative site, can you all say with your hand on your heart, that you would respond with the same degree of ‘understanding’? Could you ever imagine saying to the conservative Über-Master, who happened to just restrict one of the few frequently posting Liberal to one comment a day, ah, well that’s OK, that’s quite all right, “I don't see that as banning at all”. Never. All Hell would break loose. You’ve got to admit this, if not here but at least to yourselves.
"she seems to favor banning based on her own fiefdom as opposed to the broader territory that Glenn has "claimed."
Look. I think Glenn has done a terrific job with this blog and deserves every bit of your praise. But judging by the language and tone of some of the commenters you can’t very well throw ‘fiefdom’ my way (let alone talk of ‘broader’ territory—UT stands out because of its focus as you all well know and appreciate). Anyway, I don't know what gave you that impression, I have simply said that obscene comments are disrespectful to other commenters as well as the owner of the blog, they put new commenters off from joining in, and in my mind derail a civil discourse between differing opinions.
Hypatia,
I don't see the correlation between an extreme left opinion which you say TM holds, and good manners. Why do strong opinions have to be expressed by calling people derogatory names?
In any event this whole discussion about obscene name calling is superfluous - Glenn has made his opinion on this known- it's his blog and his call.
I just don't understand this fascination with calling everyone to the right of your opinions, a troll. “Don't feed the troll, ignore the trol...”l. I was called one earlier.
“Finally, this isn't your blog. Your sense of what constitutes a proper rule does not apply here. Glenn's does -- and he is as laissez-faire as anything this side of Usenet.”
No he is not laissez-faire, he just banned someone, and you telling me that my opinion does not count, but yours does, as it happens to coincide with Glenn’s does not make that action any more just .
In any event, Incontrolado, and "I doubt she will come back" may have to do with me running my own blog, rather than turning away from discussion, or shying away from a response.
David,
"Therefore perceived rudeness by an outsider should be tolerated more than by an insider. Newcomers should be treated with deference, as guests.
[...]
"...(a) giving a warning (b) the punishment ought to be of a limited duration"
You cannot say fairer than that.
My greatest wish is for an "ignore" button.
ReplyDeleteI rarely post here and when I do it is normally because someone has really teed me off but the idiotic arguments made by some and, actually, the mere fact that some of these things are argued is boorish and inane.
We are still making an attempt to convince, through lucid argument, those that still believe that Pres. Bush is a "good person", "law abiding", "truthful", "deserving of our trust" and is looking out for the American People's best interests? Why precisely?
There is no argument to be made that can lead to an answer in the affirmative to these points so what is the use in engaging the "other side." They can not convince anyone because their entire belief system is flawed in so serious a manner as to be spurious, deceitful, unjust, unfair, illogical, unlawful and, to my mind, evil.
The fact is that the vast majority of those that would read this blog and these response posts have already realized that the neo-cons are destroying this country and are looking for and wanting to discuss ways to stop the destruction of our great nation.
I am a big fan of "free speech" but in this format and on these subjects I would just assume only converse with those that are willing to truly have a dialog. But, sadly, that is not really what this is about. That is not their intention. This is about a certain small insane minority wanting equal time in order to be able to lie and for this reason I hope Glenn does ban certain folks. If we want to read the insanity (which I often do) we can simply go meet the insanity on it's own turf. They have several forums for it. Why should this site be allowed to degenerate into the abyss?
Alexandra's comments for instance - she seems to be spouting the same tired asinine plea for "civility in discourse" that Dear Leader is asking for. Nothing more. Why should we (those that know the truth and love this country) engage in civil discourse with these nut-jobs? That is what they are asking us to...nay begging us to do. They want, expect and sometimes demand to be heard. They are somehow deserving of it? Why precisely?
I can only speak for myself here but I am finished with "civil discourse" which, to those remaining neo-nuts, is simply code for: Dialog on our terms. I have tried it for the better part of the last 6 years to mixed results. In my opinion, at this point, the only ones left to try and convince are insane. So to Alexandra and her ilk I simply say: You are not convincing anyone. We know your kind and oh, by the way, in the spirit of defying your demand for dialog on your terms I say: fuck you.
RH,
ReplyDelete"So to Alexandra and her ilk I simply say:...Fuck you".
Thank you. Do you feel better now?
Truth Machine and several Anonymouses, I presume this is your cue...
I am going to be a dissenting voice from the majority here. Having said that, I want to note as have others that regardless of what my opinion is it is Glen's blog and his call.
ReplyDeleteI am a strong advocate of free speech and in that I am I cannot advocate banning anyone from posting their views regardless of how much I disagree with them.
I believe that there are already adequate provisions for anyone to ignore anyone who posts that one or many people believe to be a troll or someone that is just trying to be disruptive.
I believe in answering posts made by people others believe to be trolls for the following reasons.
1. The national popular vote in the last two elections has been very close. A matter of three million votes or less the best I remember. That means that approximately half of the people in this country believe what is being said by the other side regardless of how people on this blog feel about those arguments. Even if everyone here believes them to be illogical, silly or disruptive half of the people in this country believe them. For that reason I feel it is beneficial to refute those arguments. For how else are we as a group going to sway people away from those arguments and to our side. I don't think we can do it by either remaining silent or by silencing others.
2. By silencing anyone, regardless of their ideas, we make ourselves vulnerable to the same accusations that we make of others who do it on the other side.
3. When we silence someone it destroys trust and creates suspicion of the message we are trying to deliver. It always leaves others that see it done asking the questions: What is it that they are afraid of? And What is it that they are trying to hide? I know I do that everyday with Bush.
I hope that Glen will reconsider his decision and I hope that others that are bothered by those they consider to be trolls will take advantage of the mechanisms already in place that allow them to skip those posts they find to be disruptive, rather than advocating a ban.
As always the final decision remains with Glen.
Alexandra said...
ReplyDeleteRH,
"So to Alexandra and her ilk I simply say:...Fuck you".
Thank you. Do you feel better now?
Yes I do..much better thank you. In fact I am having a very hearty chuckle.
You see you prove my point for me. You did not address any portion of my above diatribe other than to single out the words "fuck you". You ignore what should be the much greater insult - my statement that your entire belief system is evil. You do not argue that point. You do not tell me how your way is the right way. No you continue to push for "civil discourse" because that is all you have and that is where you want the discussion. It is laughable.
You may find some of my more liberally minded brethren to oblige, since that is the very nature of liberalism (a fact of which I am proud), but as I stated above I am finished with it. I am simply too outraged and you and your ilk can do nothing to ease that outrage because of the nature of what you believe and, thus, who you are.
Glenn, as Unclaimed Territory becomes more popular and influential, it seems likely to become polluted with trolls unless some kind of moderation is used. Assuming you don't deploy a 'community self-policing' scheme (which seem problematic to me), then the time demanded by this is no doubt daunting. As a compromise, perhaps offer 'unmoderated comments' during most of the day, then 'actively moderated comments' during specific hours?
ReplyDeleteAssuming that you do, ultimately, deploy a moderator, I like one of the earlier commenters' ideas about allowing the reader to collapse comments based on moderator ranking of the comment. The reader could elect to view all of the A and B comments, but not the C or D level comments (or whatever). Giving someone a low grade for OT or repetitive comments, or for ad hominem attacks, would effectively minimize their disruption without having to out and out ban them.
(davidbyron, I find your arguments well-spoken but thoroughly unconvincing. I think they're based on the notion that all the commenters are operating on good faith, and I believe in certain cases that simply isn't true.)
Glenn: Alexandra - I didn't even see that comment from TM.
ReplyDeleteI already pointed this out in that thread (but Alexandra, being the scum that she is, copied my comments out of context), and noted that, nonetheless, Alexandra took my comments as an excuse to dump on you. She's not just trolling here, she's trolling the planet, spreading her filth and evil. And no, I've haven't said worse of you than I've said of her -- as I already pointed out to you (but I suspect you didn't see my comment), when you characterized what I had written you added a bunch of stuff I never said, such as "xenophobic" and "white racist". I choose my words carefully, even my insults. Speaking of which:
Alexandra, you're a disgusting pile of putrid pus fowling the air we all breathe. It's a pity that there isn't really a Rapture, since the world would be a much better place if you and your ilk were to just disappear.
Regarding trolls, from the original post:
ReplyDeleteMan alive, you really are a bleeding-heart liberal. I love it. But methinks you're overly concerned. Trolls are counterproductive. Ban 'em. Don't lose any sleep over it. If you go too far in policing (which I can't imagine ever happening), you'll hear from us.
Lack of standards or accountability = anarchy. Anarchy can work given just the right set of people, but beyond that, it breaks down.
Regarding your project:
It sounds like you're doing exactly the right things to be politically effective and to get to the core issues. I applaud everything you're doing. If I had enough writing in me to run my own blog, I would want it to be just like yours.
Let's restore the rule of law.
Glenn has not banned Gedaliya, but merely imposed upon him/her a requirement that each post he/she offers make only one point.
ReplyDeleteNo, you have it backwards; Glenn said Gedaliya could only post once per thread, but could say as much as he wanted to. That makes sense given his goals, yours does not. Also, someone said that Gedaliya could sign in as anonymous, but bans are IP-address based. Such bans can be bypassed, but not without some inconvenience. But Glenn didn't implement a ban -- he made a request, asking Gedaliya to follow his one post per thread rule. Gedaliya said that Glenn had the right to impose such a rule, but that Ged. found it too restrictive, and voluntarily withdrew.
It's quite notable how Glenn distinguishes between form and substance, recognizing disruptive intent and being unfazed by noise words that express the writer's emotional reactions. Alexandra, OTOH, is all about form (when she's not busy hating Muslims and generally making the world uninhabitable), to the point of insisting that Gedaliya isn't a troll because he's "polite", regardless of the substance of his posts and their effect of on Glenn's board. Well, not really regardless -- Alexandra wishes that Gedaliya were here, disrupting the board and preventing effective dialogue and exchange by non-fascists. Alexandra's own presence here is nothing but trolling and troublemaking. "troll" is a verb -- it's about an activity, not a kind of person. Of course Alexandra doesn't troll her own board, nor does Gedaliya. But when they're here, that's what they're doing.
Man alive, you really are a bleeding-heart liberal. I love it. But methinks you're overly concerned. Trolls are counterproductive. Ban 'em. Don't lose any sleep over it. If you go too far in policing (which I can't imagine ever happening), you'll hear from us.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting how people post here telling Glenn what he should do while ignoring the large amount that he has written about his own motivations and desires. He has said explicitly that he doesn't want to ban and he certainly doesn't want to police, and it has nothing to do with being a "bleeding heart" or being "overly concerned".
RH,
ReplyDeleteAs far as I understood it, this thread is not about that. I am not avoiding your isssues, as you are not talking to me but venting your anger on the Republicans
I am not about to deal with your lengthy attacks on the Republicans as a party, only to be told I am suddenly derailing the thread, because I am off topic. I am sure there are plenty of Glenn's threads which you can visit and discuss those issues.
I find it amusing that yesterday both The Daily Kos and TPM Cafe, mentioned me as representing the Republican viewpoint. I am actually much more middle right.
Truth Machine, you are correct, and I was sloppily mistaken in my description of the restriction Glenn had placed on Gedaliya. I should have gone back first and reread Glenn's exact terms rather than rely on memory.
ReplyDeleteBut, as you effectively restate, Gedaliya was not banned, "effectively so" or otherwise, as Alexandria stated. He withdrew of his own accord, being unwilling to abide by Glenn's even-handed requirements.
David,
ReplyDeleteI find your arguments thoroughly convincing, and extremely wise. Very impressive, and spoken like a true democrat of the old school.
Of course I don't know if you are, but I am secretly hoping, as I have not come across that fine quality in a long time.
I would second the link to Teresa Nielsen Hayden's excellent post on comment moderation. I would highlight two things specifically - the importance of praise to those that make solid contributions (something I think Glenn already does nicely) and the need for some degree of control of the space, particularly to limit abuse of that space. I thought this case was handled quite well and in the spirit of crafting a good community, as further evidenced by opening the issue up to discussion.
ReplyDeleteOne solution, though likely difficult to implement, might be for the reader to have a way to control the comments they see and for the commenters to know about it. For example, one might be able to click a button to select not to see all comments by a particular poster and similarly to see how many people have excluded said commenters comments. Slowly becoming invisible (or partially invisible through disemvowelling?) on a forum would present serious trolls with the conundrum of the increasing probability of their efforts becoming irrelevant over time if they're offensive or off-topic or abusive of the community and not contributing. Though I could see some possibility of thread fragmentation, I like the non-permanence (seeing others post thoughtful and/or complimentary responses to someone I had opted not to see would motivate me to consider reinstating the visibility of their comments) and the individual choice (rather than blanket ban vs non-ban) that this would allow. There might be some serious upfront programming problems and an additional problem of the reader having to either make decisions to see or not see anonymous comments or the blog owner having to decide whether to require registration. In the absence of something like that, I think the decision in this instance was the ideal one (at least for this size blog and for this particular problem)- someone who was interfering with the satisfaction of the owner of the blog with their blog was appropriately and politely asked to moderate their behavior slightly and not in a way that would censor their opinions.
One last bit - one of the things that I perceive in the discussion and admittedly I fall prey to myself too often to be comfortable with is to perceive that there are two sides to a lot of those issues. Although, we may often treat it as such, this is rarely true and only seems to be the case because of the artifact of having a political system dominated by two primary actors. On virtually every issue I've seen discussed here, there are a multitude of sides and while we often may try to force them (or feel the need to organize them) into a two-sides framework because of the current electoral reality we operate on, I think the diversity of the comments here belies that framework. Which is another way of saying that restrictions of participation can be potentially dangerous if seen through a similar lens - but I honestly don't see much danger of that on this blog in particular.
(c) If, for whatever reasons, a particular commenter’s behavior is extremely bothersome to the person who operates the blog – to the point where the person who operates the blog actually finds it bordering on unpleasant to venture into his own comment section – is that something which can legitimately be taken into account or serve as the basis for restricting or banning someone?
ReplyDeleteI can't speak to the rest of your points, or just don't have anything interesting to say about them, but as for this, any ethical problem with banning seems more related to how than to whether. If you want to delete a post, go for it but leave the header and replace the text with "This comment has been removed by the administator" as I've seen on other blogs, preferably also saying why. Or have a link on the sidebar to a page with a list of who has been banned and the reasons.
Obviously both of those assume that you have the time to censor individual posts, and the latter option also assumes that the offensive commenters are rare enough to be worth identifying. But you get the idea - ban freely but openly.
It seems to me that deleting a comment or banning a commenter is minor at best as an ethical issue. It's your personal blog, it's not like you're cheating anyone out of something they worked hard for, and there's a big difference between stopping someone from talking here and stopping them from talking at all.
It only becomes an ethical issue when there's something deceptive involved. When people get the impression that no one disagrees with you, or only deranged obsessives with no substantive arguments like The Dog, or if you ban someone for making a good counterargument but claim it's because of profanity and abuse, then that's pretty shady behavior. But as long as you're up front about specific reasons for deletion and bans, in addition to just a general policy of doing it sometimes... your house, your rules.
Some basics that I think need to be emphasized (and may or may not have been mentioned to this point):
ReplyDelete* Keeping someone from posting to a blog is not "restricting freedom of speech". People have freedom to speak, but it doesn't give them free access to private property owned by Google and licensed for use to the creator of this blog. One would think that any conservative would understand this distinction very clearly.
* As I have said before, there has never been a successful effort to let people self-regulate their behavior on the Internet -- especially when there's the ability to post anonymously, or at least when there's no enforcement mechanism against what is bad behavior. It has never, ever worked. And the higher one's profile, and the more contentious one is, the probability of it working drops precipitously towards zero almost instantaneously.
* There are plenty of messaging environments (like phpBB) which offer far more ability to structure community comments than the default offered by Blogger. Even though Yahoo has a major problem by allowing people to post under essentially unlimited aliases, the ignore feature there works wonders for allowing community commenters to turn off someone they simply have no interest in reading, as long as that person keeps to a readily-identifiable alias.
* It seems that Glenn's primary motivation for having community commenting is because of a belief in the principle of open debate, as well as the benefits of having one's ideas challenged (to make them better, change one's mind, etc). But this can be accomplished only with better tools to filter out the trash and elevate the quality. Simply going with Blogger defaults, then having special rules for certain people, is not going to be an effective long-term strategy. I mentioned one possible idea on an earlier thread, but there are many possible options to get closer to the ideal.
Michaelgalien said...
ReplyDeletewith
reading some stuff from Alexandra makes me 100% sure I do agree with her political opinions
I of course meant
"reading some stuff from Alexandra makes me 100% sure I do not agree with her political opinions"
Sorry for the confusion.
Thank God, I was quite distressed there for a minute.
Kris C.
to call her a troll in this thread is truly defying all logic
ReplyDeleteYou apparently have no grasp of logic.
Note how she did not insult anyone, nor did she use any profanity
These fact are completely irrelevant in determining whether someone is trolling.
I mistakenly snipped this:
ReplyDelete(insulting and using profanity are 'troll' behaviour).
No, they are not. Some trolling employs insults and profanity and some does not. Some non trolling employs insults and profanity, and some does not.
In any case, someone who comes to the blog of her political opponent and castigates him for his commenting policies, specifically criticizing him for curtailing the comments of someone that he himself and the majority of his commenters consider a troll, a troll who not coincidentally shares her political outlook and whose trolling interferes with the coherent presentation of views to which she is opposed -- that person is trolling.
davidbyron: I do not believe that all commenters are acting in good faith. I have seen unregulated blogs polluted to the point of uselessness by trolls at Air America, for example. I have not been following the specifics about Gedaliya enough to pass judgment on whether or not he was acting in good faith, nor do I know whether he is, indeed, staying away or will simply be posting under a different identity.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, there will be people who will not want Glenn's blog to flourish, and he will eventually need to implement some system to deal with that.
You state that it is difficult to ban a determined troll, and that may be true. But the system I and several other posters have suggested (moderator comment ranking with user collapseability based on those rankings) would not involve banning and would be pretty hard to bypass. Unfortunately, it would involve a pretty formidable time commitment from either Glenn or his trusted designees. Hopefully Glenn will be able to get by without such a system for at least the near future.
And you think that this is because of the existence of people whose sole purpose in commenting is to mess up a blog? Wouldn't such hypothetical creatures have given themselves a hearty congratulatory slap on the back and now moved on to a functioning blog? Why would they stick around?
ReplyDeleteFirst, a blog that is being disrupted to the point of uselessness is only useless while being disrupted. Second, ballgame didn't say that these disrupters don't disrupt multiple blogs, either serially or simultaneously.
I think this troll creature you speak of may be mythical. I have never seen one in more than ten years of various boards.
Then you must have been on few boards, or are very selective of the sorts of boards you visit, or just aren't seeing what's there. Markos implemented his rating system precisely because he had seen such disruption by freepers at his own and other liberal blogs. He spent months weeding out these freepers and establishing the trustability of regulars to the point where they could do the policing and he no longer had to. As a result, DailyKos has more serious and substantive discussion and exchange than any other blog, by several orders of magnitude, with tens of thousands of contributors. It's not perfect; there's plenty of overreaction and groupthink and clique-forming, but it works better than anything else that anyone has come up with. And the most of the problems are due to bad faith, not merely oversensitivity to security.
It seems to me that under your hypothesis all the problems of a bad blog could be identified as due to a small number of outsiders.
Why does it seem that way to you when that's not what ballgame stated? You're committing a fallacy of affirmation of the consequent.
But in my experience the insiders cause most of the problems in overreacting to the perceived need for security.
Frankly, I don't believe that that's your experience. It sounds more like your ideology.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteSo the honeymoon ends... a new blogger with a fresh voice who inspires clear, focused & insightful discussions is targeted in the comment threads by the bog people who use your ‘good citizen’ nature against you. In this case, using your inherent desire to let all sides be heard, to drown out all but their own voices through sheer repetition.
One remedy might be a version of TalkLeft’s policy of limiting repetitious commentors to 5 posts per day. Or perhaps a plea to the creators of ‘blogger software’ to offer the ability to flag specific commentors, and have their posts collapsed within the comment threads. That way a reader could decide which comments to read, without having to visually filter out so much noise. This might encourage redundant commentors to contribute something meaningful. I gave up reading DailyKos comments, because within a dozen comments or so, the dialog would have veered off track to pointless tripe, and I don’t have the patience to sift through the chaff.
"In any case, someone who comes to the blog of her political opponent and castigates him for his commenting policies, specifically criticizing him for curtailing the comments of someone that he himself and the majority of his commenters consider a troll, a troll who not coincidentally shares her political outlook and whose trolling interferes with the coherent presentation of views to which she is opposed -- that person is trolling."
ReplyDeleteYou are misrepresenting what Glenn said, he never ever called Gedaliya a troll, YOU did, and attempted to lead the charge in making others, who are by no means the majority [the ones who carried your banner], believe this is Glenn's opinion.
And no, that person is defending a commenter personally known to her, whom she does not think deserves to be curtailed in his freedom to express his opinion.
The fact that for some unknown reason, although you do not know me, you have an absolute, rancorous, and most of all personal hatred towards me, clouds your judgment. You were banned from my blog because you made personal attacks using foul language and changing your posting name each time, not at all interested in the discussion that was taking place. If ever there was someone who trolled, it was you, then.
Also as Michael quite rightly advocates, whether you agree with my point of view or not is irrelevant. He also wisely comments that the word 'troll' has been brandished far too easily and thus unfairly. At the outset of this discussion, this is the comment I made on the other thread, and as Michael pointed out it is utterly unreasonable to label that or any of my other comments here as trolling:
"[...]Glenn, whilst you know that I often read and enjoy both your blog and your comments section, which is by now renowned for it's ability to home the left side of the blogosphere who wish to have an intelligent conversation, I am absolutely appalled by your decision to effectively ban Gedaliya. For restriction to one comment is the same for anyone who wishes to have a decent discussion.
I happen to know the identity of Gedaliya, who indeed is male, and represents a good deal of intelligent argument from the right, which you may or may not disagree with, and which he delivers politely and more succinctly than I have seen not only on this thread but on the others at Unclaimed. Just looking at some lengthy posts on this thread which you have allowed without any comment from you, clearly shows your intent.
That you are allowing these monotonous bullies that either go under Anonymous or some other name without a proper email address, astounds me. You do not object to their comments, and yet you have effectively banned one of the only decent right wing commenters, who seems to be loyal to your blog, and left the bullies in, I assume simply because they agree with you.
[...]
Yes the quality of the comments section has deteriorated, but not because of the serious commenters like Gedaliya, but because of commenters that you are not restricting because they agree with you. Clearly they are administrating this comment section, and not you.
The decision you have made, even though you call it difficult, would not have been as difficult one for you to make as the one that would require the bullies that add no value to your comment section to be restricted, but who agree with you.
That would have been the difficult choice, and clearly one, judging by this thread alone you are not prepared to make.
You have made the wrong decision and quite frankly one which I would not have expected from you."
I also am not the only person with this opinion, and am simply defending a commenter who is known to me, and who makes valuable contributions to my own comment section under a different but constant name. I would not be true to myself if I did not come and defend him in light of what I know personally, and what I have seen here in the comment section during the time Glenn has had this blog. Gedaliya commented under a different (but again constant) name for a long time here, and only changed his name to Gedaliya recently.
To go off on a tangent of personal intimidation by virtue of vile language directed towards me in the above comments on this and the other thread, culminating in calling me a troll, simply discredits your entire definition of a troll.
And by the way, Glenn’s blog will grow in the spirit of the first paragraph of my quote above, and far surpass Markos’, which despite your assertion does not have the quality of the commenters you find here. The atmosphere created on Glenn’s blog is conducive to an intelligent discussion of differing opinions without insults, and I believe is one of the reasons the comment section is so successful. The reason some other liberal blogs, such as Markos', whom you praise, have deteriorated is precisely because of the foul language and cheap insults hurled at each other, which clearly put off any reasonable person from participating. Whether Glenn acknowledges this at this stage or not, is neither here nor there, history of other liberal blogs has proved otherwise.
Alexandra, peachkfc sums you up nicely: "the likes of the skin-crawl inducing Alexandra". Anyone who doubts it can just visit your blog. Be sure to take a barf bag.
ReplyDeleteIf Alexandra wanted to show (possibly unintentional) bias on the part of Glenn she would have to use his criteria (repetative and off-topic comments) and not hers (foul language). I'm new here and a glance at the thread in question suggests this would be possible because there were in-group commentators making off-topic silly politcal posts too. Someone had a lengthy psychiatric evaluation of Bush for example. Pure political fluff.
ReplyDeleteBut making off-topic silly political posts, or pure political fluff, are not what it takes to bring Glenn to the point of asking someone to curtail their posting. It would really help if you read what he has written about why he made his request of Gedaliya, instead of talking about "bias" based on some fictional set of criteria that you imagine he has applied inconsistently.
I wasn't saying that you did; what I was saying is that Glenn has spelled out why he made his request of Gedaliya, and it goes beyond your characterization of his criteria. It's not merely a matter of repetition and being off-topic, but of being disruptive in practice. Glenn asked Gedaliya to limit himself because his activities were making it more difficult for Glenn, personally, to extract useful information from his comments section. So matters of bias and objectivity don't apply, because Glenn isn't an official charged with applying the law justly and fairly, he's just a guy trying to get the most from his comments section. And of course you're right that Alexandra's criteria are irrelevant here (something hard for a narcissist like her to grasp, no doubt).
ReplyDeleteP.S. I posted a bunch more stuff over in the "propulgate" debate, although it's mostly reiterations of the point that the AUMF doesn't override the UN Charter merely by not explicitly saying that it has to be obeyed.
Incontrolados,
ReplyDelete"You called Glenn an idiot. . . publicly"
That is simply a lie. You have taken the title of my entire article out of context, and at no time whatsoever did I call Glenn an idiot, so please do not put words into my mouth. Everyone can read for themselves, without your warped interpretation.
The title of the article 'America's Useful Idiots' is to do with a pre-World War II quote which is very well explained in the text.
As for Glenn, he is quite capable of defending his opinions without any interference from you, and my part II of the above deals with his explanations.
As for trolling on my site, as you do at Jeff Goldstein's please don't make cheap threats, I am sure you have better things to do in your life than waste your time disrupting sites which you do not wish to read.
Breaking: Sandra Day O'Connor rips into GOP, DeLay, Cornyn, and warns of the "beginnings" of dictatorship
ReplyDeleteNPR's Nina Totenberg aired an amazing story this morning about a talk that just-resigned Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor gave at Georgetown University. The first woman to serve on the High Court wouldn't allow her actual words to be broadcast, and that's a shame, because -- based on Totenberg's report -- every American needs to hear what she said. The Reagan appointee who became a moderate and an American icon -- Bush v. Gore notwithstanding -- all but named names in thinly veiled attacks on former House majority leader Tom DeLay and Texas Sen. John Cornyn, and ended with a stunning warning.
We transcribed some of the report, which you can listen to here. (UPDATE: Here's a full transcript from Raw Story.)
O'Connor told her Georgetown audience that judges can make presidents, Congress and governors "really really mad," and that if judges don't make people angry, they aren't doing their job. But she said judicial effectiveness is "premised on the notion that we won't be subject to retaliation for our judicial acts." While hailing the American system of rights and privileges, she noted that these don't protect the judiciary, that "people do":
Then, she took aim at former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. She didn’t name him, but she quoted his attacks on the courts at a meeting of the conservative Christian group Justice Sunday last year, when DeLay took out after the courts for its rulings on abortion, prayer, and the Terry Schiavo case. This, said O’Connor, was after the federal courts had applied Congress' one-time-only statute about Schiavo as it was written, not, said O'Connor, as the Congressman might have wished it were written. The response to this flagrant display of judicial restraint, said O'Conner, her voice dripping with sarcasm, was that the congressman blasted the courts.
It gets worse, she said, noting that death threats against judges are increasing. It doesn’t help, she said, when a high-profile senator suggests there may be a connection between violence against judges and decisions that the senator disagrees with. She didn’t name him, but it was Texas Sen. John Cornyn who made that statement after a Georgia judge was murdered in court and the family of a federal judge in Illinois murdered in the judge's home.
Now, the kicker:
O’Connor observed that there have been a lot of suggestions lately for so-called judicial reforms -- recommendations for the massive impeachment of judges stripping the courts of jurisdictions and cutting judicial budgets to punish offending judges. Any of these might be debatable, she said, as long as they are not retaliation for decision that political leaders disagree with
I, said O’ Connor, am against judicial reforms driven by nakedly partisan reasoning. Pointing to the experiences of developing countries and formerly Communist countries, where interference with an independent judiciary has allowed dictatorship to flourish, O’Connor said we must be ever vigilant against those who would strong-arm the judiciary into adopting their preferred policies. It takes a lot of degeneration before a country falls into dictatorship she said, but we should avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings.
If Georgetown or anyone else has an audiotape or videotape of the retired justice's words, we would strongly urge them to release it (with her permission). If the NPR report accurately reflects what she said, this rises to the level of President Dwight Eisenhower's 1961 warning about the "military-industrial complex" -- and should be heard by all.