Tuesday, March 14, 2006

Censure Resolution goes to Judiciary Committee; Democrats turn on Feingold

(updated below)

Thersites at Vichy Dems has some great analysis about this AP article, which reports that Feingold's Censure Resolution has been referred to Arlen Specter's Senate Judiciary Committee for a vote. And Thersites also reports, based on this Raw Story article, that numerous Democrats are anonymously and rather petulantly attacking Feingold for having introduced the resolution -- the single most important and courageous act I can recall from a Senator in a long time -- because they are afraid (as always) that Republicans will use it to attack them as weak on national security and depict them as being best friends with The Terrorists.

If these Democrats are afraid of a 34% dying Presidency, what aren't they afraid of? The good news is that Feingold seems as willing to stand up to these frightened Democrats as he is to take a stand in defense of our country's principles from the Bush Administration's relentless assault on those principles:

"I look forward to a full hearing, debate and vote in committee on this important matter," Feingold, D-Wis., said in a statement. "If the committee fails to consider the resolution expeditiously, I will ask that there be a vote in the full Senate" . . . .

Feingold, defending his censure plan today on Fox News, said: "I’m amazed at Democrats, cowering with this president’s numbers so low. The administration just has to raise the specter of the war and the Democrats run and hide…too many Democrats are going to do the same thing they did in 2000 and 2004. In the face of this, they’ll say we’d better just focus on domestic issues…[Democrats shouldn’t] cower to the argument, that whatever you do, if you question administration, you’re helping the terrorists."

Russ Feingold is definitely the most unpopular person in Washington right about now, which is an enormous compliment. He is making Republicans extremely uncomfortable by keeping the spotlight on the fact that the President broke the law right at the moment when most people in Congress from both parties had tacitly agreed to look the other way and forget the whole thing ever happened. And he's making most Senate Democrats even more uncomfortable because he's not allowing them to quietly crawl away from the President's law-breaking without taking a position one way or the other as to whether they condemn that behavior.

No matter what else he achieves, Feingold has singled-handedly catapulted this story back to the top of the news cycle, where it belongs. Despite itself, the Senate spent the last two days forced to debate the President's law-breaking. And now the Senate Judiciary Committee has another live matter relating to the NSA scandal in front of it, making it that much more difficult for the whole thing to just fade away or for Specter and company to just sweep the whole thing under the rug. Clearly, Feingold isn't going to let it just fade away. And anyone who cares about the rule of law and maintaining the basic principles of our system of government ought to have as a top priority supporting him in that effort.

It is truly amazing, but not at all surprising, that Democrats are doing Karl Rove's dirty work by swarming around and anonymously attacking Russ Feingold. But he doesn't seem to care. He seems to care a lot more about defending the principles for which he's taken a stand than allowing national politicians in Washington to proceed comfortably along with their standard self-protective games. That, of course, is exactly why he's the most unpopular person in Washington.

And, at bottom, what this whole episode illustrates, yet again, is that if Democrats want to be perceived as strong, and if they want to lose the albatross of being pereceived as weak, what they have to do is extremely simple and clear -- stop being weak and be strong. Who appears stronger and more resolute right now -- Russ Feingold, or the Democrats scurrying around in the dark, afraid of their own shadows and petrified of standing up to a weakened President who got caught breaking the law?

UPDATE: A regular commenter at FireDogLake (which, by the way, is now up and running at its new location, emancipated from Blogspot), Professor Foland, reported this:

Just got off the phone after about 15 minutes with a staffer in Kennedy’s office (in Boston.) Mon dieu. Very frustrating. And this is Kennedy.

Hit absolutely the wall. Kennedy won’t support or oppose, wants a Congressional investigation. Yes, sure, facts are not in dispute, but the Senator will not take a position on the censure resolution until the investigation is complete. Yes, sure, law not really in dispute. But the Senator will not take a position on the censure resolution until the investigation is complete. Yes, sure, FBI has dropped all pretenses in monitoring political groups within the US. But the Senator is not going to issue a statement in support.

Yes, it makes it difficult for people who are outspoken to stand alone. Yes it makes the party look fractured on an important issue. But the Senator is not going to issue a statement until investigations are complete. No, of course we understand the investigations are going to be run by Republican Senators. But the Senator is not going to issue a statement until investigations are complete.

Sadly, after carefully stressing the words "the Senator", the staffer kept saying, "I think you can tell where I stand." And I could. What a mess.

I've heard reports of similar incoherence and indecision emanating from several other Democratic Senators' offices, including several who occupy very safe seats in very blue states. The preferred tool of eavsion which they're using is the claim that they need "more facts" before they can know if the President broke the law.

It should go without saying that they have all the facts they need to conclude definitively that the President broke the law. Bush himself admits that he ordered eavesdropping on Americans without the judicial oversight and approval required by the law the Congress passed in 1978. There are no factual disputes about that. Even the Administration doesn't deny any of the facts necessary to establish that they broke the law.

A factual investigation into the NSA program would certainly be nice -- in order, for instance, to find out if there are other illegal eavesdropping progams which we do not yet know about, and/or to find out how the eavesdropping power was used (something we don't know because the eavesdropping was done in secret, exactly what the law criminalizes). But no investigation is necessary to conclude that the law was broken because the law makes it a criminal offense to eavesdrop on Americans without judicial approval and that - by the Administration's own (proud) admission - is exactly what they did.

And beyond all of that, there isn't going to be an investigation, so it borders on the surreal for these Senators to say that they want to wait until the investigation is complete. The reason there isn't going to be an investigation is because the President's allies voted against it. That just happened last week, and yet Democratic Senators literally seem either not to have heard about that event or to have forgotten that it happened, because they keep saying that they want to wait for the investigation to be complete -- the same investigation that is not going to occur.

As astonishing as it is -- and I know that it shouldn't be astonishing, but it still is -- very few of these Senators are going to take any steps on their own to support Feingold's resolution. They won't unless the public demands that they do something. And Sen. Feingold has created the opportunity for the public to do that.

100 comments:

  1. Anonymous7:09 PM

    You seem to think the Democrats would object to having the powers that Bush has staked out for himself. You seem to think that Congress or a Democratic president would reverse these trends, strike down the Patriot Act, and restore peace and justice.

    They're not cowardly. They're letting the Republicans do the dirty work for them.

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  2. Anonymous7:14 PM

    Did anyone else see Mike Luckovich's cartoon from last Thursday? At the time it seemed sadly accurate; today, depressingly prescient.

    Scroll down to the cartoon for March 9th, about half-way:

    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/index.html

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  3. Anonymous7:16 PM

    If Bush and the Republicans successfully keep ahold of "the powers that Bush has staked out for himself", they'll be able to game future elections with greater ease than before.
    So when will the Democrats ever get to use these powers?

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  4. Anonymous7:19 PM

    my bad for not using preview.

    Luckovich's cartoon

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  5. Anonymous7:19 PM

    my bad for not using preview OR html.

    Luckovich's cartoon

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  6. Anonymous7:24 PM

    where should we send emails to thank and lend our support to Feingold?

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  7. Wow, who'd a thought that a president at 36 percent doesn't get criticism by the opposition party?

    I long ago turned off my television because I found it was an infection that needed to be cut off like a gangrenous limb. Recently, I've been watching news reports on the Internet as a way to catch various news pieces from the networks. Coming back to network news after a long hiatus has allowed me to see the clear bias being shoveled at the populace.

    Though the blogoshpere is an important development in the combat against propaganda, I feel that the battle needs to be taken to the mainstream media. Repealing the telecommunications act of 1996 would be a good start. Breaking up the news monopolies should be a high priority in order to take our country back.

    The possibility exists for the democrats to take back the senate in 2006 and the first item on the agenda should be the power of the subpoena, the second should be public financing of elections and third should be the shattering of the media conglomerates. If these actions are not taken, I feel that O’Connor is right that dictatorship through corporate oligarchy is just around the corner.

    We've got to lend Fiengold as much support as possible. Overcoming the propaganda (McClellan's press briefing yesterday) can be done. We need national democrats to repeat the talking points and then as Glenn says they become conventional wisdom.

    Personally, I'm going to call Fienstien and vent my spleen about this vote.

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  8. Anonymous7:28 PM

    It does not matter one whit what some future administration would do with the powers that this administration claims to have. It does matter that someone in the senate is taking a stand against the current administration's claim on those powers.

    The point is that we can call our representatives and pressure them to join that stand. We can do that now, and we should.

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  9. Anonymous7:30 PM

    How do you know you are doing the Right Thing?


    A: You are unpopular in Washington.

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  10. Anonymous7:35 PM

    I think this is it. I know it is for me. I truly believe this is the big one. I am not sure how this ever gets swept under the rug. It is out there. Period.

    We will soon learn who truly represents the American People and supports the rule of law and who does not.

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  11. Anonymous7:35 PM

    It's enough to make a regular person want to be in the Senate. What's with these cowards?

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  12. Anonymous7:35 PM

    I found the most extraordinary bit of anonymous snark in the Raw Story article to be:

    “I just think you know there’s was a concern among a number members of the caucus that this was going a little too far," the staffer remarked. "The majority of the American people agree with what the president’s doing. A lot of people outside the beltway see this as a tool that’s keeping Americans safe." [emphasis mine]

    That one sentence illustrates a massive roadblock: that Democratic senators and their staffers believe what Republican politicians and talking heads say even when it's in direct opposition to all the evidence. Until this changes, I'm not sure what else will.

    At least Feingold knows how to abstain from the Kool-Aid.

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  13. Theresa, that cartoon is spot-on. It always amazes me how easily frightened Democratic "strategists" can be. And not only that, but they always feel the need to publicly state how frightened they are to any reporter who will listen. Now, if by some miracle the Democrats do rally behind Feingold's resolution, it would be obvious that they did so only with great reluctance and trepidation, thereby negating much of the potential upside of supporting such a resolution in the first place. Well played.

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  14. Anonymous7:38 PM

    I just got off the phone with Senator Feinstein's phone-answerer in D.C., approx. 1:48pm (PST).

    Said I was a constituent of the Senator's, and asked if the Senator had taken a stance on Senator Feingold's motion to impeach. Was told that, no, no stance was yet taken.

    Said I couldn't imagine how Senator Feinstein could have voted to censure President A for having sex with an intern, and not censure President B for eavesdropping on Americans without a warrant in direct and flagrant violation of a law that has been on the books for 30 years. Was told that, no, the Senator had in fact voted to censure President A for perjury.

    Said I couldn't imagine how Senator Feinstein could have voted to censure President A for perjuring himself over sex with an intern, and not censure President B for eavesdropping on Americans without a warrant in direct and flagrant violation of a law that has been on the books for 30 years. Was told, "I'll pass on your thoughts."

    Said I'd like to remind Senator Feinstein that there is no Intelligence Committee investigation for the Senator to wait on before taking a stance on Senator Feingold's motion, because Senators Hagel and Snowe have reversed themselves and voted against Intelligence Committee hearings. Was told that, no, a special subcommittee of 3 Dems and 3 Repubs continues to hear testimony on the subject, and that Senator Feinstein sits on said subcommittee, and that Senator Feinstein just yesterday heard testimony from an NSA Official.

    Asked if that special subcommittee, on which Senator Feinstein sits, has the power to compel testimony, or issue subpeonas. Was told by my Senator's aide that he did not have that information, and had no way to aquire that information.

    Opined that I had little hope that said special subcommittee, on which Senator Feinstein sits, bore much chance of relevatory fruit, in light of Senator Feinstein's own aide being unaware of whether or not said subcommittee (or any individual member of said subcommittee) had the power to compel testimony, or issue subpeonas. Asked when the Senator's Aide might be able to acquire an answer to the above-asked question. Was, instead, offered a forward to the committee staff to perhaps get an answer to my question.

    Declined said offer, and expressed my preference that my Senator's aide seek out an answer to my question as to whether or not my Senator's special subcommittee (or any individual member of said subcommittee) had the power to compel testimony, or issue subpeonas. Asked when my Senator's aide may be able to aquire that information for me. Was summarily hung up on by my Senator's aide.

    Constituent service, Di-Fi style.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  15. Anonymous7:42 PM

    Not surprising! there is one thing that republicans and democrats have in common, and that is the desire for POWER!

    whatever "conservative" values the republicans had, they tossed it when bush became pres. for this reason I mistrust them very much.
    None will get a vote out me for awhile. Election years change thier minds, if only temporarily.

    My mistrust of the democrats comes from there cowardly capitulation to this pres at least since 9/11. the censure resolution is a good example of politics before principle. whatever motivation Feingold has for putting forth a censure resolution at this time can be debated, but whatever the reason, I cannot fault him for it since he seems to be putting principle first. this stands in stark contrast to the rest of his party by attacking this resolution out of fear that they will look weak on national security. What they look weak on right now is character and leadership, which I think is what Americans are looking for. I know I am. Russ feingold is a man I could support as President because he is standing up for my constitutional rights.

    Unfortunately, the status quo is alive and well in D.C. Who can tell the difference anymore between republicans/Democrats?

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  16. Anyone read Walter Karp's Liberty Under Siege?

    In it, Karp argues that Jimmy Carter was an impotent President primarily because he was castrated by his own party. The first part of the book is about how Democrats in Congress fought Carter on almost every issue. The second part of the book then details how the same Democrats enabled Reagan and wouldn't stand against him on nearly anything.

    Sound familiar?

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  17. Anonymous7:49 PM

    MoveOn petition supporting censure: link

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  18. Anonymous7:57 PM

    Glenn,
    You seem like a smart, principled guy, genuinely angered by what both the Republicans and Democrats are doing. I'd say that most of the bloggers you've sort of allied yourself with, from Atrios to the people at Firedoglake, are the same way.

    So here's what I'm wondering: why are you still supporting the Democrats? Again and again their base practically begs them to come through, and again and again on issues everyone knows they can win - from Iraq to Alito to domestic spying - they crawl away with their tail between their legs begging the nice Republicans not to hurt them.

    All the principles the Democratic party once claimed to care about are long gone. They have no spine. They have no leadership. They have no clear voice. In short, they seem to have nothing going for them except the power of incumbency as one of the two major parties - and they're even trying to throw that away.

    In the end, this all comes down to the votes. The Democrats ignore their base, trying to play to some fictitious center, because they know in the end no matter how much we in the base and the grassroots and the blogosphere scream, we're going to come back and support them when the election comes around. They screw us on everything they can, from Feingold to Hackett to Cuellar to Lieberman and beyond, and though we may play the angry parent and swear never to let them get away with it again, we always do.

    I keep waiting for someone in the blogosphere to stop just complaining about how pathetic the Dems are and actually wash their hands of the party, and I'm posting here because I think you or the people at Firedoglake seem the most fed up with the crap the Democrats are pulling, seem the most rational about it and thus seem to be the people most likely to hear and respond to what I have to say.

    At what point do we tell the Democrats we're not going to support them anymore? They sold out the social safety net, they sold out on the bankruptcy bill, they sold out on the estate tax, they sold out on abortion, they sold out on Iraq, they sold out on the Patriot Act, they're selling out on this. And yet, despite all our indignation at all this, we're offering them our support for 2006. Why? Why not just admit that even if the Democrats take the majority in 2006 (which they won't) it's just going to be business as usual? We talk a lot about the revolution that is the blogosphere, but we've yet to do something with that power. Isn't it time we told the Democratic party that they're on their own? That they need to shape up or we'll ship out and make a new party, one responsive to the needs and desires of the country? Yes, they'll buck us and go their own way and eventually go down in flames in 2006, but will it do any of us any good if they were to win? Too often, we seem to support the Democrats simply because they're not Republicans, not because they'd actually do something good for the country.

    Maybe we need to wake up, smell the coffee and force the Democrats to live up to their principles, ideals and supporters or die without them.

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  19. Anonymous8:02 PM

    Complete contact info for Feingold is now posted here. The post immediately below that one has links to two MoveOn actions we should participate in, too.

    I'm pretty sure there'll be a Roots Project gameplan up here, at FDL and at VichyDems in the next day or two, but for now, joining the MoveOn stuff, and contacting your own senators, Harry Reid, and Feingold are good things to do.

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  20. If he were interested in holding George Bush accountable he would’ve made his pitch in the Democratic caucus behind closed doors

    This aide said that with a straight face?

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  21. Anonymous8:03 PM

    By the way, on the subject of challenging rollover Dems...

    Marcy Winograd, at a press conference today (that I happened to attend), officially announced her Democratic primary candidacy for California's 36th Congressional seat... the one currently held by Jane Harman (a vocal and key Democratic supporter of the president's warrantless-eavesdropping program, the president's war, and the president's Patriot Act). Marcy made the decision to run exactly two minutes after Rep. Harman's stomach-churning appearance on "Face the Nation" three weeks ago. She stewed, she screamed, she sat down, she took a breath, she looked at her husband, and she declared, "I have to run against that woman."

    Formerly a "tossup" district, gerrymandering has made CA-36 a safe Democratic seat. Kerry won it 60%-40%. The GOP now offers only token opposition in the district, making this a golden opportunity to replace the self-described "best Republican in the Democratic Party" with someone who represents the progressive values of this community.

    In the last week, Marcy has gotten 2 unions (UTLA and UAW) and a local Democratic Club (the Wilmington Democratic Club) to revoke their endorsements of Jane Harman. And we've only just got started! It's only gonna take 19,000 (+1) Democratic votes from places like Venice, Mar Vista, Marina Del Rey, West L.A., and Torrance to replace a Bush Democrat with a real Democrat. We can do this, folks!

    If you'd like to help get Marcy there, and send Blue Dog Jane packin', check out Marcy's website:

    www.winogradforcongress.com

    Election time is June, so there's not much time left. Let's get crackin'!

    And, FWIW, this has been a non-remunerated plug from a non-remunerated, but very motivated, constituent of Jane's and volunteer of Marcy's.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  22. Anonymous8:19 PM

    Patrick -- what a call. I feel for you, but good for sticking to your guns. And did this staffer really say the subcommittee is split 3-3? Because it isn't, more's the pity. It too is stacked, with 4 (Executive Branch lap dog) Republicans and 3 Democrats.

    Glenn - You characterized the situation just right in this post.

    I remember after Russ Feingold was stiffed by his party a couple of weeks ago on the Patriot Act filibuster, he said something to the effect of he 'had to question whether his party deserved the right to govern' after that vote. He is learning his lessons, and acting on them. And any Senator who is too lazy to do their own homework, can simply ask Russ, who HAS done his, for an explanation. They have no excuse.

    And A.L. - exactly right. If and when the Democrats come out together, they will look like they're doing it at the point of a gun (at least if they wait much longer, or let the Raw Story type of stuff get wider play -- but then, that's obviously the intent of some of these anonymous leaks).

    Russ Feingold just may have decided to save his country, by way of reforming the Democratic Party, by hook or by crook. The Party baggage that needs to be shed is who we are hearing from right now (anonymously, of course).

    I'll help:

    The public supporters of Censure to date are John Kerry, Harry Reid, and Barbara Boxer. The public opposer to date is Evan Bayh.

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  23. Anonymous8:20 PM

    The average American citizen is not interested nor can understand all the nuances of D.C. politics and all of it's manipulations. the dems are seriously overanalyzing what they think the people want. What they want is something simple and clear that speaks to them.

    Politics is the problem in D.C. It's a politcal "babylon" of politics. What is right for the common good is getting lost because of self-serving personal and party desires for power. Since GWB became pres, the republican party has pulled off a "jekyl/hyde routine from (supposedly) "conservative" to "authoritarian". What happened. It seems they are trying hard to destroy the conservative movement.

    Niether party is going to do us, the people much good.

    Ultimately, the people themselves, when they get fed up with the status quo of both parties, and when real oppresion sets in, then maybe they can put there favored pet rep/party/ideology behind them and change things back to Constitutional sanity for themselves. These parties are not going to do it.

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  24. Anonymous8:22 PM

    Everyone keeps asking WHY OH WHY with bush so weak in the polls aren't the dems signing on to the Censure. BECAUSE JUST LIKE BUSH AND THE GOP, THE DEMS DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THEY ALL SERVE THEIR CORPORATE MASTERS. THEY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT!

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  25. Anonymous8:23 PM

    why are you still supporting the democrats?

    I had the same question from a reader a few days ago, and figured I might as well cut-and-paste my ridiculously long answer. (One nice thing about hanging out in Glenn's blog is that the crowd already is self-selected for long-detailed-post tolerance!)

    What I said was:

    why stay a democrat? Why not start your own party with your own principles. Or just run your candidates independent.

    It's a good question, and a perennial one. The simple answer is that, historically, it doesn't work, and it can be harmful.

    Republican Teddy Roosevelt got mad nearly a hundred years ago when members of his own party started acting like Republicans today are, and formed the Bull Moose Party to challenge them -- with the result that both he and the Republican nominee lost, and that the Progressives that Teddy was representing left the Republican Party and never came back.

    Similarly, Nader's third-party run was a "but for" cause of Gore's loss (meaning that, while there are other reasons that also can be blamed, including the Republicans' rigging the election, the truth remains that "but for" Nader's run, Gore would be in the White House).

    What made me finally reject the idea of third-part candidacies was the realization that our political parties function just like Parliaments, except before the election instead of afterward. Let me explain:

    In Parliamentary systems, there usually are two main parties, but there are lots of vibrant, smaller ones as well. If a major party fails to win the majority of votes in an election, then it must join forces with one or more smaller parties until it has cobbled together a majority to actually govern. Those indispensable minority parties extract concessions as their price for aiding the big party -- for example, Socialists may side with Liberals to form a majority, in exchange for which a Socialist is appointed to oversee social programs.

    In our system, one or the other big party WILL win every election, even if it doesn't win a majority. (Bill Clinton, for example, won with a less-than-50% plurality in 1992 because Ross Perot split the R vote). That's why third parties only hurt the big party they're most closely aligned with.

    But third parties -- or interest groups that would be third parties if we had a Parliament -- can collaborate with the big parties to help them gain a majority; they just do it BEFORE the election. That's how they can be influential: by saying, "we'll give you our support if you will give us x, y and z in return." That's why disparate groups like the morally conservative churches and the morally bankrupt corporatists can come together as Republicans: they're really two separate parties forming a majority.

    So, in a Parliamentary system, Nader would have been elected to Parliament as a Green, then joined with the Gore Democrats to form a government, in exchange for being promised a Cabinet post and liberalized environmental policies, or something like that. This being the U.S., however, Nader should have done the same thing before the election: approached Gore with an offer to withdraw from the race and throw his support to Gore in exchange for being appointed Secretary of the Interior and a promise that Gore would increase EPA mileage requirements by 5 mpg, or something similar. Then Gore would have won, and Nader would have succeeded in shifting Gore's policies to the left.

    I hope I'm putting it clearly enough...

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  26. Anonymous8:40 PM

    Astonishing and heartbreaking. The inside-the-Beltway Dem establishment must be dismantled.

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  27. Anonymous8:48 PM

    Guess its true, some animals eat their young. To back this does not seem to apply to chimpanzees

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  28. Anonymous8:51 PM

    Let us not ignore the possibility that those democrats that would like to sweep this under the rug may indeed be agreeing with the administration, because THEY ARE SO AFRAID FROM THE TERRORISTS THAT THEY THINK THE PRICE IS RIGHT. To think that they all have the right principles but are just afraid of Rowe would be giving them way too much credit.

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  29. Anonymous8:51 PM

    Me thinks that reports of the demise of Feingold's censure motion are premature...

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  30. Anonymous8:52 PM

    "Patrick -- what a call. I feel for you, but good for sticking to your guns. And did this staffer really say the subcommittee is split 3-3? Because it isn't, more's the pity. It too is stacked, with 4 (Executive Branch lap dog) Republicans and 3 Democrats."

    This Feinstein staffer did, indeed, tell me that the Senate subcommittee with jurisdiction over the NSA matter is evenly split 3-3. And the Feinstein staffer did also say that this subcommittee is currently holding hearings, and that Senator Feinstein (who he said sits on the subcommittee) had heard a briefing from an NSA official on this very issue within the last two days.

    I confess, I was (and am) confused by what he said to me, as I know that the compromise reached by DeWine, Snowe and others created a subcommittee of 4 Republicans and 3 Democrats (i.e., not an even 3-3 split). And I wasn't aware that the specific subcommittee created by the DeWine/Snowe compromise was already active, taking testimony, etc.

    So Feinstein's staffer was either snowing me when he told me that the subcommittee was split 3-3, or he was referring to an entirely different subcommittee, with jurisdiction over this issue, upon which Senator Feinstein sits. I'm not sure which it is. I was about to ask him for clarification on this, but, as I mentioned above, he hung up on me.

    To repeat, a non-abusive, non-profane constituent seeking information on an important matter was hung up on by his Senator's staffer.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  31. Anonymous8:52 PM

    Alex K said...

    Thank you Alex K!

    This is exactly how I feel at this point. I am ready for a complete overhaul myself. Never having been a Democrat but always voting for them as the lesser of two evils just doesn't cut it anymore. As of this moment the only Democrat I will ever vote for is Feingold. Those that may support the Censure resolution (thinking Durbin) will also be worthy of my vote but as for the rest.... I will either not vote at all or, in all sincerity, vote for a Republican in the hopes that it will bring about the needed revolution while I am still young enough to draw blood.

    I say we take Feingold and Durbin and maybe a few others and begin again.

    Regardless - I am fairly sure this Censure resolution will show that the Democratic Party is dead.

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  32. Anonymous8:57 PM

    It may be helpful to distinguish between two different sub-groups of DLC-insiders: The DLC-LEADERS and the DLC-FOLLOWERS.

    I think we can influence the thinking of the Dems who FOLLOW the DLC-establishment (the DLC-FOLLOWERS) by alternatively hitting them over the head and then whetting their appetite with alternative progressive positions to create the political space for them to climb into, EVERY TIME THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO. (Like right now.) How do we all, grassroots plus DLC-FOLLOWERS, know that an opportunity has arisen? When we have the opportunity to dominate the greater *narrative* in a way that will attract the other centrists-who-follow (DLC-FOLLOWERS).

    The DLC-LEADERS of course are hopeless and will have to be marginalized in the end. But, as I predict this Censure episode will show, we can peel off the DLC-FOLLOWERS if we offer them the grassroots support, and make it easy for them to take the next step of inserting the obvious framing that guides the narrative back from, e.g., "Dems Dont Want to Spy on Al Qaeda" to, say, "President Bush's secret surveillance program is a vast abuse of power and, a clear majority of Americans agree, must be rebuffed."

    The DLC_FOLLOWERS have to be 1) given numbers for political cover; 2) spoon-fed well-framed sound bites such as:

    - "the warrantless surveillance program is clearly illegal and unnecessary, and a clear majority of Americans agree."

    This way it is framed as a separation of powers issue and not a national security issue, completing the bed-tucking process.

    It's weird, but it's what we have to do. Hey, if changing their sheets for them gets the goods ... ... ... why not? Someone said: they want to be made to feel "comfortable" - well then dammit let's make them feel "comfortable" if that's what WINS. That is, of course, when we are acting in concert with DLC_FOLLOWERS based on an opportunity. At other times, they can be reminded how darn uncomfortable a sledgehammer can be.

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  33. Anonymous9:10 PM

    Patrick: here's what DiFi's staffer was talking about. They were attending a NSA briefing -- ie, the criminal telling his side of the story. No real hearings yet, and it IS 4-3.

    ReplyDelete
  34. They were attending a NSA briefing -- ie, the criminal telling his side of the story. No real hearings yet, and it IS 4-3.

    It's true that this subcommittee (which was created when the Intelligence Committee voted not to investigate) has been meeting, and Feinstein is on it (and it's 4-3), but (a) it does NOT have a mandate to investigate what happened in the past, only to be briefed on CURRENT eavesdropping programs, and (b) the members of the Committee are barred from disclosing what they learn to anyone else, including other Senators.

    In any event, this whole "waiting-for-the-investigation" claim is a complete red herring because there are no facts in dispute regarding whether the President violated FISA. They ADMIT he violated FISA and have only legal arguments to excuse that (that the AUMF exempted them from FISA and Article II powers override it). No investigation is going to address any of those issues.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous9:24 PM

    Patrick: here's what DiFi's staffer was talking about. They were attending a NSA briefing -- ie, the criminal telling his side of the story. No real hearings yet, and it IS 4-3.

    Well that sucks, not only did DiFi's staffer hang up on me, but before he did, he lied to me, AND he sold me the NSA briefing as though it were genuine ongoing oversight of the sort that could dampen the necessity for an affirmative vote on Senator Feingold's censure motion.

    I'd feel bummed enough about this if I lived in Utah, and my Senator were a Republican. But I live in California, and my Senator is a Democrat.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous9:33 PM

    Look on the bright side, Patrick: during the Alito filibuster we absolutely changed Feinstein's vote from a yes on cloture to a no. That's official. My impression was that she was like a confused person being led away from a car crash. She'd never actually had to respond to constituents before.

    I don't think she's bright, but she can be led...

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous9:44 PM

    Theresa: you'll like this (I put Luckovich's cartoon front and center and gave you a h/t). Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous9:47 PM

    Feingold seems to be the only Senator left who "refuses to let the terrorists win." I think it's ironic that those who remind us of this mantra the most often are also the ones quickest to dismantle our venerable system of government out of fear for what the terrorists might do to us if we don't.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous9:48 PM

    Glenn, but aren't they now trying to claim that FISA is unconstitutional?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous10:05 PM

    A new 50-state strategy: I think it may be a productive effort for the blogosphere/netroots to get really serious about running primary challenges. They are simply not representing us.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous10:15 PM

    I wrote this to every Democratic Senator:
    Dear Senator,
    I am a 72 year old female born in Alabama and living in Georgia.
    I don't know whether or not you supported Senator Feingold in his effort to get a censure resolution but if you didn't:
    SHAME ON YOU!!
    Since the Republican party is unethical, untrustworthy, inept, and dishonorable, it's past time for some congressional oversight.
    President Bush's approval ratings are in the tank. Let's give up being reasonable. Be unreasonable!
    LET HIM HAVE IT!!

    ReplyDelete
  42. This kinda-sorta correlates to another issue that I raised at Pandagon, when it was pointed out that many Democrats seem to be avoiding the blogsphere.

    The Democrats are acting in a passionless manner. They just don't seem to care about anything. Now, in some ways, I know that it's because they're outmatched. They can't introduce legislation and expect it to go anywhere; they can't accomplish anything in committee. The Republicans are willing to, once again, stand by their boy.

    But without passion, they're just not going to accomplish anything.

    I don't give a damn what they get passionate about. They could get passionate about the incompetent use of intelligence that led to the invasion of Iraq. They could get passionate in opposition to the torture of detainees. They could get passionate about upholding the law. They could get passionate over the right of every American to pick his or her nose. I don't *care* what they get passionate about, but without any passion, why is anyone going to care what they have to say?

    I mean, shoot, isn't that one of the first rules of public speaking? If you're bored by what you have to say, your audience can't help but be bored by it, too? Passion isn't a cure-all, it's not sufficient, but it sure as hell is necessary.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Folks, the Dems are not running away like scalded cats from the Feingold censure motion because of the bogus 34% "approval" rate for Mr. Bush. What they are looking at is the 73% support for the NSA Program.

    This isn't rocket science. Even the slow and addled in the Senate recognize that it is a loser to censure the President as a criminal for ordering a program which every single senator including Mr. Feingold claims to support.

    They remember that the President's approval numbers rose when he joined this debate when the NYT originally blew the cover of this program.

    The President's approval numbers took a hit because of the xenophobic lynching of DPW deal. However, that deal is dead and we are back on the President's home court.

    The GOP is going to attach an amendment to the next big spending bill to force a vote on the censure motion. They are looking to duplicate the complete bipartisan repudiation of the Murtha cut and run motion in the House.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I'm diggin' Feingold's cajones lately.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous10:27 PM

    This circumstance highlights a key weakness in our particular constitutional system. Fear vastly outweighs the normal political process. But, the effective functioning of the political process (or the fourth estate, which is even more fragile) is all we have right now to correct the excesses.

    Whereas, in Europe, an independent Ombudsman functions in most countries as an independent power base that operates as a check on overreaching by the other branches. Our Founders did well, to be sure, but they were human, and could not forsee all the power imbalances that could develop, or engineer mechanisms to prevent them. Bottom line, we must update the structure of our government to include another, more apolitical office with independent powers to investigate and prosecute.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous10:40 PM

    I see Bart the bedwetting Monarchist is back.

    In regards to the Democrats, I refuse to give any more money to the Democratic Senatorial or Congressional Campaign Committees. Now I'll only give to individual Democratic candidates who display a backbone.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous10:47 PM

    Let's start the process by putting Feingold in the White House. He has the capacity to communicate; and he (apparently) has some integrity. He gets it.

    If 51% of Americans can be deluded into voting for a chimpanzee for President, we should be able to delude them into voting for an honest man.

    ReplyDelete
  48. The Democrats just colluded with the Republicans to bury what amounts to a loyalty oath to the Constitution instead of the president.

    They are dead to me.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous10:57 PM

    What seems apparent to me is that the vague, vacillating, and obtuse positions being proffered by the various Democratic senators, those who have even bothered to comment, is that the presidential political dynamic, i.e. the 2008 election, would be steered irrepressibly toward Feingold, who is not the de rigeur candidate of either the DNC or the DLC. In fact, if he were successful in this censure motion, Feingold would be the leading candidate of both parties; a national hero who finally stood up to al Qaeda and said that we will not give up our Constitution, our rule of law, or our inherent civil liberties.

    Russ Feingold has taken a stand that jeopardizes the status quo of the Clintonian and/or Warner/Bayh/Biden/Kerry field, camp, whatever - money machine. A successful bid on censure, one that illustrates the consistency and huevos grandes of this guy, would immediately make Feingold the odds-on favorite, despite his otherwise dark-horse candidacy. When calling out these presidential hopefuls, ask each to defend his/her position on the censure, the NSA scandal in general, Bush’s blatant disregard for the rule of law (with myriad evidentiary examples), the Iraq war, standing up to the terrorism of al Qaeda, the Plame outing affair (and here, I am getting redundant), and a long list of other ethical, moral, and legal atrocities. Let each know that only Feingold is talking like someone who has been awake for the last 5 years, and that each of them needs to do some serious introspection about what the hell he or she is doing in public service.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous11:00 PM

    reichstag - Feingold got my vote for 2008 today.

    And good going Tanna -- I too wrote several senators today on the censure motion today and I'll be doing more (and making some calls) tomorrow -- as many as I can fit in around work.

    And just for inspiration, last night I attended an impeach Bush meeting -- good to be around more than 150 like-minded people -- I recommend it highly. All of the speakers reiterated their support for the censure motion as a good first step to impeachment.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous11:01 PM

    I called both my Senators (Sarbanes and Mikulski) yesterday, and I'll be calling them again tomorrow.

    Meanwhile, Feingold's locked up my vote for 2008. "Which one of you nuts has got any guts?" is the question I've been asking of Congressional Dems for the past few years. (Stolen from Randall P. MacMurphy, of course.)

    Finally found one with guts. And brains, too. Feingold's my candidate. End of story.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous11:04 PM

    I can't help but wonder if some of this isolation of Feingold is his own fault. A lot of Dems didn't like McCain-Feingold, Feingold insists on granting Bush his prerogative in nominating judges, etc.

    That plus the fact that it's pretty obvious this is a bit of grandstanding with one eye fixed firmly on the 08 elections.

    Feingold's remarks today do show pretty much contempt for the Democrats (richly deserved, I hasten to add). Not a way to get people to line up behind you though. One gets the impression he doesn't care. Maybe the calculus is, this is the right thing to do, it'll help me in 08, I know my colleagues are by and large too spineless to support me, but who needs the worthless slugs anyway? That is surely the message he's telegraphing to many Democratic senators (who, by and large, are worthless slugs).

    There is a hint of the preemptive though in his actions. Perhaps he's nursing a grudge from the Patriot Act filibuster bust.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous11:09 PM

    Russ Feingold has taken a stand that jeopardizes the status quo of the Clintonian and/or Warner/Bayh/Biden/Kerry field, camp, whatever

    That must be why Kerry is publicly supporting the censure motion.....

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous11:09 PM

    If the blogosphere can put $15 million into Feingold's presidential campaign EARLY, I believe he will develop enough momentum to go over the top. He is a quintessential "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" story. The masses will love that.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous11:23 PM

    That must be why Kerry is publicly supporting the censure motion.....

    Kerry's "on the record" support does not change the fact the Feingold introduced the censure motion; that deflates the efficacy of Kerry's political dynamic. Nevertheless, I welcome the support of any and all who realize that endorsing the motion can only help their cause.

    ReplyDelete
  56. If you want Senator Feingold to run for President in 2008, please, come over to http://russfeingoldpetition.blogspot.com/ and sign the petition.

    Thanks for your time.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I'd sure love to see someone more eloquent than myself write up a very positive but forceful letter endorsing the censure and expressing gratitude to Feingold for doing his job while demanding that each and every democrat in Congress stand behind him rather than endorse the illegality of the administration.

    Since Brazile is right and the blogosphere is not only on fire, but working together in a way I've not seen before, I'd bet that we could get a very impressive list of signatures, perhaps enough to give them pause before they join in the Russ bashing. It won't work with Lieberman, but it couldn't hurt to try.

    Any thoughts? Could we make a difference if Kos, Atrios, Digby, Firedog Lake, Glenn, Wolcott, Crooks & Liars, AmericaBlog, First Draft, etc. all worked together on a single-minded campaign to show the support that we all know exists for Russ Feingold and his courageous stand.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous11:51 PM

    You corroborate something I've long said about the Democratic leadership. People don't think they're weak on defense because their position is wrong; people think they're weak on defense because politically, they won't fight for their position. The subconscious logic is "How can they fight terrrorists if they won't even fight Republicans?" -- Not really logical, but understandable.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous11:56 PM

    Saw this headline at another Web site:

    "Dean seen boosting DNC from bottom up"

    Feingold does him one better, he is "boosting" DNC by giving them a good swift kick in the ass!

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous11:56 PM

    JaO:

    Welcome. Anyone who holds the rule of law in high regard should be speaking up.

    A court test of the NSA program would be ideal, but getting it into court is no easy thing. ACLU is attempting it, but, without a nameable plaintiff, it is not clear they have standing. Can legislation force this into court? Over a veto?

    The political system is the only plausible mechanism available to force accountability.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous11:59 PM

    I'm a resident of Wisconsin, a strong supporter of Russ Feingold and I say fuck the D.C. democrats! My loyalty is to the progressive blogs and their communities. Do you realize how out of touch Washington is ? Get with it folks we are on our own (plus Russ )And throw out the beltway media too. And their little cocktail weenies and kiss ass social parties. They've forgotten us. Just hanf with Kos, and Firedoglake and Glenn and we'll be fine.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous12:00 AM

    The only player pushing that scenario right now is Arlen Specter, who happens to be a Republican. Get over it, and get behind some legislation to facilitate decisions by the courts.

    So, like you basically admitted in your "introduction", you are uninformed and do not choose to look at these issues.

    The MSM has told you that Specter is doing this and you uncritically support this because, as you admitted, converstations to the contrary are "too partisan."

    So tell me again, what is the great "insight" you have to share, other than you won't read anything that does not fit with your preconcieved notions.

    And explain again why I should be so "moved" by an "argument" that anything that challenges your views is inherently partisan...

    ...thanks for stopping by moron.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous12:02 AM

    Just hanf with Kos, and Firedoglake and Glenn and we'll be fine.

    well.... eventually we should try to hang with someone that actually has some say and power in the political process, don't ya think?

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous12:10 AM

    Those last comments are what is so astonishing about the Senator's actions. I vid-clipped Levin on Late Edition saying, in response to hearing of Feingold's proposal, that he was going to wait till after the investigation. As usual, shouted at the television that there IS no investigation, and why in the world would he say that? It isn't as if they don't know this, are they also hoping to dupe the public?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous12:18 AM

    bart said...

    Folks, the Dems are not running away like scalded cats from the Feingold censure motion because of the bogus 34% "approval" rate for Mr. Bush. What they are looking at is the 73% support for the NSA Program.

    Funny how polls that don't agree with you are bogus but those that do are spot on Bart. Really like trying to have it both ways don't you?

    On your 73%, what poll, what date?

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous12:22 AM

    Russ Feingold will have my vote if he can get nominated in the primaries in 08, or if he will run as an independent if the Dems insist on running one of their vapid, oh!! I don't want to offend anybody candidates.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous12:31 AM

    Kathleen Callon said...

    If you want Senator Feingold to run for President in 2008, please, come over to http://russfeingoldpetition.blogspot.com/ and sign the petition.

    Thanks for your time.

    I'd be happy to but your url is wrong and doesn't get you to the petition.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Glenn: "A factual investigation into the NSA program would certainly be nice -- in order, for instance, to find out if there are other illegal eavesdropping progams which we do not yet know about, and/or to find out how the eavesdropping power was used (something we don't know because the eavesdropping was done in secret, exactly what the law criminalizes)."

    Given the POTUS-Congress non-cooperation, we can make adverse inferences -- contrast the assessments from Dec 2005; with Mar 2006: [ Dec 17; 14 Mar]

    ReplyDelete
  69. Pardon the long, unoriginal post, but all this talk of censure reminded me of the passionate, handwringing justifications our stalwart, rule-of-law, Republican brethren presented in December 1998:

    Mr. SOLOMON.
    The man in question clings to the trappings of his powerful office, and cloaks himself in its symbols and icons, but adheres to none of the principles of the men who served in it before him.

    Mr. HANSEN.
    The question before us today is whether we, too, will turn away from our long heritage of the rule of law, the love of truth, and instead place our faith in the brutal role of power, the fickle winds of appetite and the manipulation of public opinion.

    Mr. WATTS of Oklahoma.
    Ask the children. The kid who lies does not last and they do not bicker over what is and what is not a lie. They know. So do I. So do the American people.

    Time and again, we wanted the essence of truth and we got the edges of the truth. We hear, `Let's get on with the business of our country.' What business is more important than teaching our children right from wrong?

    Mr. BUYER.
    Americans all across the country every day, we all try very hard to live by the rules, principles and proverbs and we teach them to our children. What are they? It is called honesty: You tell the truth, be sincere, do not deceive, mislead or be devious or use trickery. Do not withhold information in relationships of trust. Do not cheat or lie to the detriment of others nor tolerate such practice. You honor your oath. Be loyal. Support and protect your family, your friends, your community and your country. Do not violate the law and ethical principles to win personal gain. Do not ask a friend to do something wrong. Judge all people on their merits. Do not abuse or demean people. Do not use, manipulate, exploit or take advantage of others for personal gain. Be responsible and accountable, think before you act, consider the consequences on all people by your actions.

    Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas
    The President has diminished his office in the eyes of the Nation, and more dangerously, in the eyes of the world.

    The President is the chief law enforcement official of this country. If you lose respect for him, you lose respect for the law.

    I would just say, again, to the American people, that this is not a choice about doing what is easy. This is a choice between what is right and what is wrong under our Constitution and the rule of law.

    Let's be clear: the President lied to us. He pointed his finger at us, looked us in the eye and lied to us, over and over again.

    We must make a stand and say--we are a nation of laws and no one is above the law.

    REP. CHABOT:
    Ignoring this president's lies and deceit would set a terrible precedent for the future -- for future presidents, for future people who testify in courts throughout this country, and to our nation's children. And I hear over and over again, we've got to do it for the children.

    Mr. SOLOMON.
    How are we to answer our children when they ask us `If the President can lie and get away with it, why can't I?'

    Mr. SENSENBRENNER.
    Mr. Speaker, most Americans are repelled by the President's actions. The toughest questions I have had to answer have come from parents who agonize over how to explain the President's behavior to their children. Every parent tries to teach their children the difference between right and wrong, to always tell the truth and, when they make mistakes, to take responsibility and face the consequences of their actions.

    Mrs. MYRICK.
    Mr. Speaker, just before the November 3 election my 5-year-old grandson, Jake, asked his mother if we were going to be electing a new President, and upon being told, no, we already have a President, Jake replied: No, we do not; he lied.

    As my colleagues know, such principle from the mouths of babes. As sad as this is for our Nation, this action is necessary so that all of us can continue to not only uphold but teach those basic truths and basic right and wrong in our houses and, most assuredly, in this House.

    Yes, to err is human, but to lie and deny and vilify; rather than that we need to confess and repair and repent.

    Just remember, the children are watching.

    Mr. CHABOT.
    I ask every Member of the House to consider the question I posed to my colleagues on the Committee on the Judiciary last week: What message are we sending to the youth of America if we abdicate our constitutional duty and condone perjury, obstruction of justice and abuse of power by the President of the United States?

    I have two children at home, a daughter and a son. With the help of their teachers and their church, my wife and I have tried to teach them about honesty and integrity. We have tried to instill in them a belief that character does indeed matter. We have taught them to obey the law.

    Mr. HYDE.
    Mr. Speaker, my colleagues of the People's House, I wish to talk about the rule of law. …

    Let us look back to Bunker Hill, to Concord and Lexington. Let us look across the river to Arlington Cemetery, where American heroes who gave their lives for the sake of the rule of law lie buried, and let us not betray their memory. Let us look to the future, to the children of today who are the presidents and members of Congress of the next century, and let us not crush their hope that they too will inherit a law-governed society.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous12:51 AM

    I just got one of those annoying drum-up-support letters from the Hillary Clinton campaign. I sent this in response:

    "Got your email. I'm not voting in 2008 -- in the primary or the general
    election -- for any Senator who doesn't openly and strongly support
    Feingold's censure resolution.

    "Just thought you should know."

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous1:40 AM

    About the wonderful Republican legislation that some concernist was boosting above: here's more of the REAL story, from VichyDems:

    DeWine, Graham, Snowe and Hagel Plan REALLY Bad Legislation:

    The deal that Snowe and Hagel agreed to last week is worse than even I thought. We knew they were abandoning any serious Senate Intelligence Committee investigation into impeachable conduct by the White House -- conduct that actually makes our country LESS safe from terrorists (scroll to para. 9 or search for the word "detrimental"; and more here) . But now Editor & Publisher reports that the legislation also increases criminal penalties for whistleblowers who dare to tell the people when the government is acting unlawfully. I'm not normally a Chicken Little or a conspiracy theorist, but this is bad -- worse even than it sounds. If you don't believe me (a lawyer with 19 years experience defending government contractors from FBI investigations, prosecuting criminals, and writing legislation), then trust Glenn Greenwald (a First Amendment lawyer who's the leading expert on the legalities of the NSA issue).


    Raising the speed limit after the President gets caught speeding doesn't really solve the problem, does it?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous1:43 AM

    John Brownlow: the problem is, if you don't have a parliamentary system, a new or third party will always, always, always fail. It's demonstrable mathematically. It was the Founders' one error. All anyone ever can do is reform one party unless it has collapsed so totally that there is a power vacuum -- and while the Dems may be a disorganized disoriented lot, they do possess power: money, incumbency, inertia.

    So please let's stop talking about abandoning all Democrats (what, including Feingold and Boxer?) and start working on reform.

    Throwing the Vichys out on their asses is fine by me, though, even if lots of "liberals" aren't even willing to do that.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous1:48 AM

    M.A. said...

    "One thing I find entertaining about Republican talking points is how they proclaim certain issues winners for them, and losers for the Democrats, on no evidence whatsoever."


    Ain't it the truth. Like when Bart said:


    bart said...

    Folks, the Dems are not running away like scalded cats from the Feingold censure motion because of the bogus 34% "approval" rate for Mr. Bush. What they are looking at is the 73% support for the NSA Program.

    This isn't rocket science. Even the slow and addled in the Senate recognize that it is a loser to censure the President as a criminal for ordering a program which every single senator including Mr. Feingold claims to support.


    But when you call him on his figures like the 73% he goes silent. Musta pulled that one out his @ss. Not to mention that he still tries to equate the public supporting eavesdropping on Al Qaida with support for the NSA program which are two completely separate things.

    What a lying troll!!

    ReplyDelete
  74. To Bart:
    Didn't I read a post from you that claimed you are an attorney practicing in Colorado? Has an effective defense ever been mounted by you by pointing out the law your client broke was not favored by the latest opinion poll?

    In another thread at this blog I broached the very same subject that jao mentioned, and that is a judicial finding. Which will percolate up eventually to the supreme court.

    Polls are irrelevant when it comes to laws. Even Mr. Greenwalds excellent analysis is only a reason for a hearing, not a replacement for a hearing itself. Neither is a congressional investigation--albiet they do have the power of censure and even impeachment. Still, the ultimate conclusion of this bizarre constitutional reading of this administration should be with the judicial branch.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous1:59 AM

    Jon Stewart and Ed Helms just skewered Democratic consultants on the Daily Show. Fabulous work!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous2:08 AM

    JaO: A brief perusal of Specter's draft did not reveal to me "a mechanism for compelling judicial review." All I saw was the authority of the court when application is made.

    The core problem in the NSA question is that the executive simply ignored the court. How can the court act if there is no application? I agree that the administration should have sought some appropriate provisions from Congress in 2001. But, tellingly, they did not pursue the option. Now, we are faced with a miscreant executive who is blind to "bright lines."

    Now, we must enforce the principle of the UNIVERSAL rule of law upon that miscreant. Otherwise, no law has any meaning. Not FISA as it exists, not the Specter modification, nothing.

    There are jerks everywhere. Just ignore them.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Jao,
    Further,
    what happens if a court does find this program violates the constitution and the administration says the courts have violated the constitution by usurping constitutionally protected executive authority?

    Then what...a mexican standoff? I'm just glad people way smarter than me are in control...oh, wait...we're done for.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous2:24 AM

    jao,

    I have read on other blogs this idea that Bush is chicken of the courts and should have found a way to have a judicial review on the NSA's secret program.

    I do not understand the logic. The executive branch believes it has commander-in-chief unitarian power under the constitution, has a favorable FISA Court of Review findings in hand, and has an AUMF act of Congress. Given they had all this in hand, and the Attorney General looks at it and his legal team determines the president has the authority, why would you ask for judicial review?

    When Congress passed FISA, they recognized that they might be treading on the President's inherent powers, yet they did not seek a judicial review. Do you think Congress should have had judicial review before they passed FISA?

    Given the poker hands each side has, I see absolutely no reason for the executive branch to play a game of Mother May I.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous2:39 AM

    http://political.moveon.org/censure/

    Petition from move.on to support Feingold's motion. Whatever you think of moveon, at least they are doing something, and this petition should be signed. They also will forward your comments on to your Senator and Representatives.

    I am glad we have revealed who the Emperor with no clothes really is. And why I hope Glenn will address David Shaughnessy's concerns about whether this will be a Democratic site or not.

    The enemy is not the Republicans. It's the system. The Republicans of today are just a little more corrupt, and a little more ballsy.
    So they're the ones able to do the "dirty job." I agree with the first poster on this site:

    They're not cowardly. They're letting the Republicans do the dirty work for them.

    And if the wrong Democrats get in, there will be NO place to go for appeal. Think the Republicans are going to be receptive to our wishes and a Republican Feingold is going to step forth? I don't think so. Republicans think a Feingold is a McCain, two entirely different species.

    We're trapped with no exit. I know Paul Craig Roberts says the only hope is to get the Dems into one of the houses in November, because by the end of Bush's present term, the country will have slipped into a soft dictatorship which will be tolerated by everyone except those who speak out against it, who will be punished.

    I suppose he knows the facts, and is probably right. But that is clearly such a minor part of the whole puzzle.

    It's going to be the people, or nobody. That's clear. And the people have one person, and only one, who represents their thinking: Feingold.

    So unless some choose to give up, a reasonable choice, btw, the only thing which makes sense is to throw one's complete support behind Feingold now and hope that first step will lead to a tunnel that will be a way out.

    Another reason why we should work hard, each one of us, with money, time, or whatever, to support Feingold is because of the morality of the situation. One man we respect takes a heroic stance, and steps forth alone, and if all we do is moan and groan about how both parties are corrupt, etc., that leaves him out there to hang alone. If we wants heroes to appear on the scene, when they do we have to let them know there's an army behind them which has their backs.

    That's us.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous2:52 AM

    Anonymous said:


    "I do not understand the logic. The executive branch believes it has commander-in-chief unitarian power under the constitution, has a favorable FISA Court of Review findings in hand, and has an AUMF act of Congress. Given they had all this in hand, and the Attorney General looks at it and his legal team determines the president has the authority, why would you ask for judicial review?"

    What the executive branch thinks or says does not make something so.

    Unless of course you are another one that believes that there is only one branch of government.

    Pro-dictatorship are you?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous2:52 AM

    JaO--
    just a bit of advice:

    "The post by the partisan jerk "anonymous" is a prime example of why this site is often viewed as a Democratic cheerleading camp, rather than a venue for serious discussion."

    yes, but look at the quality of the comments that have responded to your post. pretty poor, no? if you know your way around the issues and have a decent idea of how our government is supposed to work, the deficiencies of the responses you've gotten are glaringly apparent: they're not very insightful (or even well educated) and they're more-or-less uniformly blindly partisan one way or another.

    this blog is probably better viewed as "a venue for serious discussion" in much the same way as a high school civics class is "a venue for serious discussion." this is fine and to be expected: this blog is structured so as to draw in the marignally involved and educated, to give them some very basic information and direct them towards things they can do if they want to help. It's not surprising that that's about all that happens here.

    Glenn's a bright guy and his analyses are interesting, albeit sometimes inflamatory in entirely useless ways. But Glenn should also be understood to be directly responsible for the pitiful lack of sophistication in his comments. I wish he'd do something about it, but apparently he has some kind of principled "hands-off" "free speech" hang-up - frankly, it's dumb and it makes his blog a much much less interesting place than it could be.

    There are some well informed commenters here, but they mostly have their own blogs, so i'd advise you to visit them and comment there.

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  82. I'm really scratching my head on the reluctance of the Democrats to support the censure resolution. If they would stand in one position eventually the swing will find them. It's awfully hard for a swing voter to latch onto a moving target.

    Where is the swing voter right now? Standing right next to the democratic base saying hellooo, is anybody listening? Right now, Bush is polling at 27 percent with swing voters. That's like "I am not a crook" tricky Dick numbers.

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  83. Anonymous3:12 AM

    jao said:

    What the executive branch thinks or says does not make something so.

    Unless of course you are another one that believes that there is only one branch of government.

    Pro-dictatorship are you?
    ---

    Why won't you answer the hypothetical? You are not AG Gonzales are you? And you are the one claiming if you were Bush you would run right to Supreme Court for a review. I see no sense in your logic whatsoever.

    Just because you believe that Bush does not have any inherent powers does not make it so.

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  84. Anonymous3:37 AM

    Patrick Meighan, you are the best!
    I never thought much of Sen. Feinstein, nor Kennedy, nor Biden, nor Schumer, nor either Clinton, nor any of them. They're either identifiably stupid, or corrupt beyond redemption. The only Democrat I ever identified with is Patrick Leahy, although he doesn't go the distance, because he appears at least to be a man of honor. Why he doesn't punch Specter in his f*cking mouth and call him out is beyond me, however.

    PS. Notice how when you email Senators they ask you to check off an area of concern? Do they have Government corruption, Police State, Issues of National Importance, or the Rule of Law there? Of course not. It's always about some special interest, like agriculture. I just check off "crime" these days.

    After all, that's what we're really talking about, isn't it? Crime in High Places.

    Thanks for that report, Patrick. It was fascinating. I hope you call some others, and report back. You seem to have a very good "interview" technique. And you are helping us start our own "list" of people we cannot and would not support.

    Tomorrow I will call Feinstein's office and ask why the hell her staffers don't even know what she is doing. Who pays their salaries? Isn't it the public? They should all be fired for incompetence. Enough is enough.

    PS. Thersites, you are doing breathtakingly good work. And keep posting the contact info. It's so helpful. Posting it rather than linking to it is especially helpful.

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  85. Anonymous4:29 AM

    Kathleen: PLEASE! I love what you are doing, but you do damage when you ask people to go to a site (which I just did) to sign a petition, and there is no petition to be signed. I noticed many of the commenters pointed out the same thing. Those are people who, as I, left that site frustrated. Why drive people away?

    I am a person who just started going online five months ago. But on the first day, I would have known better than to do ask people to sign a petition where there is no petition, or ask people to vote like Wampum just did and there are no instructions on how to vote.

    Isn't it obvious that "vote" or "sign a petition" and "leave a comment" are entirely different things?

    Again, I love what you are doing, and admire your efforts, and are grateful for your involvement, but you have to make it easy for people to participate, not drive them away.

    This same thing has been happening to me over and over on the Internet, and it's beginning to bug me. I am given wrong contact info for a Senator or Representative, sent to a page which doesn't open, asked to fill out a million questions when all I want to do is leave a comment, given a page with every politican in America's name on it instead of the person that the link said I would reach, and it's a big waste of time and eats into my energy.

    Sorry for venting, and I know I am abrasive when I am tired, as now, but I just want to make sure we maximize the chances of involving those with short attention spans.

    It would be great, Kathleen, if you could work with thersites at VICHYDEMS, who is the best person on the Internet in terms of making it easy for people to take action by supplying them with great contact info.

    Good luck, and thank you for having the vision to pick the right person, and the passion to head up an effort such as yours. I admire you greatly, and support you completely.

    PS. David Shauhnessy. Aha! You finally have written a sentence with which I do not agree. First one! McCain is anything but a hero. Taking a principled position and then getting in bed with the monster is a particularly disgusting show to watch, and his backing down on the torture issue was truly unsettling.

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  86. Anonymous4:51 AM

    It's obvious: The Bush administration has already collected so much intelligence on the Senators through illegal spying, that they can blackmail them into submission.
    Plus the democrats are of course hoping that the Republicans will fail so badly anyhow, that no matter what they do now, they will win the next election. THen of course they will misuse the NSA to do th same thing, to create a balance again.

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  87. Anonymous5:14 AM

    jao, your imput is hugely welcomed on this site. It's not really a partisan site, although your observations about certain posters are not off target. Some of the Republicans here, like me, have concluded that it doesn't look likely that reform will come in a timely fashion from any quarter of the present Republican party, and so we are exploring the option that if an opposition party takes back one of the houses, the changes we want to see in government in terms of government illegality and other alarming, egregious injustices, will be more likely to happen.

    Two points: what is the timeframe for the type of judicial review you write about? If the Specter proposal were to go through, in its present form or a better, tighter version of it, would that be sufficient in your opinion or would the failures in the DOJ of which you write still be a real problem in trying to re-establish the rule of law in government?

    Also, what is the time frame for this issue reaching the Supreme Court? I had read some place that it would be four or five years, and it is possible that would be too late, that too much irreparable damage would have been done by then.

    Finally, most of the people who have been reading this site for a while scroll past all the anonymous posters. Most are trolls, and the ones who use words like "moron" or engage in ad hominem attacks are just trying to drive away the most informed new posters. Since it is obvious that you are one of those, I wasn't suprised to see the quick attack on you. It's not, however, reflective of the "soul" of this blog, and something best ignored.

    Finally, are you the same person as Just An Observer at VC?

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  88. Anonymous5:20 AM

    http://political.moveon.org/censure/

    Petition from move.on to support Feingold's motion. Whatever you think of moveon, at least they are doing something, and this petition should be signed.


    MoveOn's politics are nearly identical to Russ Feingold's. Which underscores how meaningless it is to label them as "partisan", or Shaunessy's pathetic demonizing "hyper-partisan". Those who use the term pejoratively would be wise to remember that, in WWII, "partisan" referred to those who fought against fascism (http://www.google.com/search?q=wwii+partisan).

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  89. Anonymous5:29 AM

    engage in ad hominem attacks are just trying to drive away the most informed new posters. Since it is obvious that you are one of those

    Yes, it is obvious that jao is one of those who engages in ad hominem attacks, starting right off the bat with Many if not most posters here seem more intent on proving to yourselves that Bush is a bad fellow than advancing the legal cause., quickly followed by The post by the partisan jerk "anonymous" is a prime example of why this site is often viewed as a Democratic cheerleading camp, rather than a venue for serious discussion.

    I realize that hypocrisy is a basic character trait of Republicans, but your arguments might be a bit more convincing if you could manage to stifle it a bit.

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  90. Democrats had a choice: side with the progressives or side with the republicans. As usual, they chose the republicans.

    Hey progressives: your party hates you.

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  91. Anonymous8:56 AM

    It feels less and less like tinfoil hat territory to think that most Senate Dems are being blackmailed.

    Gonzales has basically admitted to another illegal, purely domestic spying program. Given the administration's inability to distinguish between politics and policy (not to mention their track record of mendacity, vindictiveness and exceptional meanness), it is not out of the realm of possibility that this secret domestic spying program has been used to dig up dirt on political opponents.

    How else, given such weak poll numbers, can the Dems' paralysis be explained?

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  92. Anonymous10:42 AM

    Yikes, I actually missed this the first time I read the post, had to be pointed back at it from FDL...

    Since you front-paged me (not a complaint!) I feel in fairness I should not remain pseudonymous in reporting the conversation--I'm one of Senator Kennedy's constituents, Andrew Foland, of Cambridge.

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  93. Girs Lobo:

    But when you call him on his figures like the 73% he goes silent. Musta pulled that one out his @ss. What a lying troll!!


    I apologize for not being on call for you. I broke my ankle yesterday and spent most of my time in the ER.

    Glenn linked to a poll last week, I think by Pew, which provided that level of support for the NSA Program. I am doped up an not really in any shape to go trolling through Glenn's old posts. Maybe he can help you.

    Not to mention that he still tries to equate the public supporting eavesdropping on Al Qaida with support for the NSA program which are two completely separate things.

    How do they differ?

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  94. Oilfieldguy said...

    To Bart: Didn't I read a post from you that claimed you are an attorney practicing in Colorado? Has an effective defense ever been mounted by you by pointing out the law your client broke was not favored by the latest opinion poll?


    Officially, no. However, if the jury does not favor a law, they realistically have a jury pardon by not convicting.

    Polls are irrelevant when it comes to laws.

    Only in court. Public support or opposition to a law has a great deal to do withy whether it is enacted in a democracy.

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  95. Anonymous "Given the poker hands each side has, I see absolutely no reason for the executive branch to play a game of Mother May I."

    2:24 AM

    . . .

    Your argument fails.

    1. You're confusing "ministerial duties" -- lawfully mandated on the executive using FISA -- with “power”. The two are different. Congress may impose any ministerial duty; nothing in FISA conflicts with the Article 1 Section 8 power of Congress to make rules about captures or laws of war. FISA is related to the laws of war; it doesn’t do anything to prevent – rather it affirms – the Executive’s rather limited, non-exclusive war powers.

    2. FISA is consistent with the Constitution. The President has not successfully argued that the FISA is unconstitutional, or that the FISA trumps his power. If the President feels he needs to “assert his power” – there’s nothing stopping him from taking this case to the Supreme Court. However, he would rather point to non-sense distractions.

    3. The AUMF is not constitutional -- it was based on fraud. Putting aside the unconstitutional AUMF, FISA specific ministerial duties trump the generalized terms in the AUMF.

    Either way, your cause is lost and your President will be impeached. The states may lawfully issue proclamations requiring the House to vote on impeachment; this procedure uses House rule 603, has precedent, and this cannot be buried in committee. It doesn’t matter that the RNC controls the House; the public have many months to digest whether congress is for or against the Constitution. The phony “national security”-arguments are absurd: The RNC doesn’t care about national security – it just talks about it.

    The state proclamations calling for impeachment – consistent with House rule 603 -- are well underway. This executive deserves no deference – he is a war criminal, and has no evidence of any imminent threat in Iraq; he has no hope. Why do you support this rebellion against the Constitution?

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  96. Gris Lobo:

    I was wrong about the 73% approval of the NSA program. It was actually 76% in the Quinnipiac University national poll to which Glenn linked in his March 2, 2006 post. As they say in the newspapers, I regret the error...

    By a 76 - 19 percent margin, American voters say the government should continue monitoring phone calls or e-mail between suspected terrorists in other countries and people in the U.S., according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11367.xml?ReleaseID=880

    Almost no issue has this kind of support, which is why the Dems are doing their best to torpedo the Feingold censure motion claiming the Mr. Bush is acting illegally by conducting this surveillance.

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  97. JaO said...

    Bart quotes the following lead sentence of the poll press release about support for NSA surveillance:

    "By a 76 - 19 percent margin, American voters say the government should continue monitoring phone calls or e-mail between suspected terrorists in other countries and people in the U.S., according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today."

    Here is the very next sentence he left out: "But voters say 55 - 42 percent that the government should get court orders for this surveillance."


    We discussed this poll in depth back when it was allegedly posted.

    The question which these polls are avoiding is whether the respondent thinks the government should continue monitoring phone calls or e-mail between suspected terrorists in other countries and people in the U.S. without warrants.

    I am willing to wager a c-note that at least 60% would say yes to this question.

    The closest any pollster has come to asking my question is Rasmussen, which asked: "Should the National Security Agency be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States?"

    64% of all Americans, 81% of self identified Elephants, 57% of self identified independents and even 51% of self identified Donkeys believe the NSA should be allowed to listen in on conversations between terror suspects and people living in the United States.

    The term "be allowed" means that 64% of Americans want this program to proceed with or without warrants.

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  98. JaO said...

    bart,

    The fact remains that you deliberately distorted the quoted press release by your truncation of the summary.


    Not at all.

    This particular post once puzzled over why nearly every Dem in the Senate ran from the Feingold censure motion like scalded cats when Mr. Bush's approval ratings are allegedly in the mid 30s.

    I pointed out that the Dems are not looks at the approval ratings for the President, but rather the approval ratings for this program.

    The sideshow about warrants is completely irrelevant to this political calculation being made by the Elephants who are eagerly seeking a vote on the censure motion and the Dems who are frantically avoiding being placed on the record by blocking a vote.

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  99. Anonymous6:53 PM

    I just made a contribution to Feingold and contacted Senator Obama suggesting he speak up in support of Feingold. Thanks for the blog. And for bandelier.net for links to sites such as yours.

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