With virtually all of the predictions made by proponents of the Iraq invasion having been proven false, with a true strategic disaster on our hands, and with most of the country having concluded that the war was a mistake, war supporters have been desperately searching around for some way to salvage their reputations. On Thursday, John Hinderaker unleashed this self-justifying plea:
In truth, we likely won't know whether the Iraq war was a success or a failure, a good idea or a bad idea, for another twenty or thirty years, when the consequences of the effort not only in Iraq, but throughout the region, become clear. For now, we can only guess.
So even though it looks like everything war supporters said before the invasion was false and the war looks like a huge mistake, we can't actually know for sure until 2 or 3 decades from now, so we should check back with them in around 2026 or so. But that wasn't what Hinderaker - or his fellow Bush followers -- were saying back in April, 2003, a time when they were triumphantly proclaiming instantaneoues victory and insisting that those who opposed the invasion should forever hang their heads in shame because of how wrong they were.
Hinderaker's plea that we won't know for 20 years if the Iraq war was a good idea prompted me to go and read what he was saying in April, 2003, which then led me to the comments he was excitedly pointing to during that time from the likes of Charles Krauthammer, Ralph Peters, Victor Davis Hanson and other similar types who were publicly engaged in all sorts of triumphant chest-beating war dances.
Until you go back and actually read what was being said at the time, you don't really appreciate just how intense and deceitful was the propaganda and falsehoods spewing forth from every corner. People like Victor Davis Hanson and the Powerline buddies were not just wrong in what they were saying, although they were that. And it's not just that their judgment was severely flawed, although it was.
Far worse than that is the fact that they really were living in a world that did not exist -- a fantasy world so plainly free of facts and reality that it is truly disturbing to recall that so much of the country was propagandized into believing it. Going back and reading it really creates the sensation of people who were living in a world that combines the worst elements of Disney World and Pravda. Our experts and pundits were literally describing a world that did not exist and making claims that could not have been any further removed from reality. Put simply, anyone who read them, listened to them or believed them at the time was completely misguided and misinformed about reality.
If there were any intellectual honesty in our political dialogue, people like Hinderaker and Peters and Hanson would be disgraced into silence. The falsity of their factual claims and the monumental error of their judgments are tantamount to a surgeon who removes the wrong organ, or a lawyer who sleeps through a murder trial, or a journalist who invents facts for his stories. Certain errors are so fundamental, embarrassing and reflective of a deficiency in judgment and an lack of trustworthiness that they stay with those individuals as an albatross around their necks for many years -- and rightfully so, because they are so credibility-destroying.
There is real value in examining this record. Despite their humiliating mistakes and deceit, people like Hinderaker, Hanson, Charles Krauthammer and others have not been disgraced into silence; to the contrary, they are still claiming the right to dictate how we proceed with our foreign policy, both in Iraq and beyond. I recently wrote a post at C&L comparing the prescient and wise judgments of Howard Dean regarding the war to the fundamentally false claims made at the time by war proponents, and said this:
This is worth noting not because this is a time for recriminations or because of the satisfaction which one can derive from a celebratory "I-told-you-so" moment. It is critical to focus on who was right about this war because this country, right now, has extremely difficult choices to make with regard to the disaster it has created in Iraq – and the first choice is whose judgment and foreign policy wisdom ought to be listened to and accorded respect.
FAIR (h/t Atrios) recently compiled some truly amazing examples of what our pundit class was saying about the Iraq was in April and May of 2003. Following are some excerpts from those who continue to hold themselves out as military and political experts -- those who insisted back in April, 2003 that war opponents had the obligation to keep quiet and admit their shattering defeat, but who refuse to apply those standards to themselves in light of their horrendous, incredibly destructive errors:
Powerline, April 25, 2003
Victor Davis Hanson for National Review Online suggests that the war against Saddam Hussein may actually have been the "hard part" and that there are many good reasons for optimism about what lies ahead in Iraq and elsewhere in the region.
Powerline, April 22, 2003
The end of the Iraq war has slowed, but by no means stopped, "antiwar" activity.
Brendan Miniter, Assistant Editor, Wall St. Journal's Opinion Journal.com
It's amazing that more than two weeks into the liberation of Iraq--as residents in Basra are cheering British forces and Americans occupy Baghdad's airport and Saddam Hussein's main presidential palace--the antiwar crowd is still spinning a doomsday scenario. But it's getting harder and harder to take seriously the claim that freeing Iraq will make it harder to win the war on terrorism.
Indeed, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. U.S. forces apparently found chemical weapons yesterday.
Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 25, 2003
Iran may think it smart to use its fundamentalist agents to undermine the American achievement in Iraq. But look at the newly constituted map, where it suddenly finds itself surrounded by reformist movements. The omnipresence of the United States, twenty years of failure inside Iran, and the attractions of American popular culture will insidiously undermine the medieval reign of the mullahs faster than it can do harm to the foundations of democracy in Baghdad. . . .
We also must keep the projected costs in perspective. Despite the frenzied charges, we probably so far have spent no more $30 billion on the military operations of Operation Iraqi Freedom — not the "hundreds of billions" forecast by alarmists who sometimes slipped into "trillions."
Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 17, 2003
A fair historical assessment will soon emerge that attributes our victory not to Iraqi weaknesses per se. Rather it was the American ability on the ground and air in a matter of hours to decapitate the command-and-control apparatus of the Baathist regime that alone allowed bridges, oil wells, power plants, and harbors to be saved, and chemical weapons not to be used.
Powerline, April 26, 2003
It is easy enough in nearly all cases to determine who has won a war. However, I do not know of any criteria for determining who has won a peace. No doubt, this is why liberals have recently embraced the phrase. They can't deny that President Bush has won his two wars, and won them resoundingly. But liberals still can make the nebulous, unverifiable claim that he has lost, or will soon lose, the peace.
Powerline, April 21, 2003
Judith Miller, writing in Monday's New York Times, records what could be a breakthrough in the search for illicit weapons of mass destruction.
Some time ago, an Iraqi passed a note to American soldiers saying that he was a scientist who had worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program. The note languished for a while because the troops were fighting and because similar tips had proved to be blind alleys. But a few days ago, a MET Alpha chemical weapons detection team from the 101st Airborne tracked the man down, and he led them to buried chemical weapons components. So far, his story seems to check out--and if what is now being reported is true, it's dynamite.
The scientist stole documents, samples, and other evidence of the program that he worked on, and buried them in his back yard. He says that in the days before the war started, major efforts were undertaken to either destroy, bury or otherwise hide Iraq's illicit weapons. He reportedly has led American soldiers to at least one site where such weapons (or weapons components) are buried.
Powerline, on Dick Morris, April 15, 2003
"Never before have Americans had the chance to watch the establishment media while also seeing events unfold for themselves, live, on television. Our collective understanding of the dissonance between the two is breeding a distrust of the major news organs that will likely long outlast this war."
Morris' view is that establishment media like the New York Times, CBS, NBC and ABC have been shown to be absurdly pessimistic and wildly inaccurate:
"Each morning, we sat reading our copy of The New York Times, The Washington Post or the Los Angeles Times and ruminated on their prophecies of doom and quagmire. Then we looked up to see, on television, correspondents actually embedded with our troops reporting quick advances, one-sided firefights, melting opposition and, finally, welcoming crowds."
Hinderaker in particular posted joyous and glorious photograps almost on a daily basis showing how our trimphant troops were welcomed as liberators by Iraqis, and they usually included captions from Hinderaker like this, from April 30, 2003:
With the war in Iraq winding down, the daily photos in Army Times include scenes of joyful homecomings.
Charles Krauthammer, April 19, 2003
"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington."
Given all of this profoundly false misinformation they were being fed, it is no wonder that the vast majority of Americans -- both Democrats and Republicans -- strongly supported the war. As Powerline celebrated back then:
The latest Fox News poll data are out, based on interviews conducted April 8-9. No surprises; 81% support the military action in Iraq, and 68% strongly support it. The President's approval rating is positive by a 71% to 20% margin. General satisfaction with the progress of the war and with our military is no surprise.
And Hinkeraker's comment from April 15, 2003 reminds us of the disgusting climate which these deceivers created -- where those who (accurately and wisely) questioned the war or disputed the war proponents' false propaganda were stigmatized with the worst labels possible:
I don't think we're at the point yet where Bill Clinton can officially be called a traitor, but he certainly is making a career out of giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
It is truly difficult to understand how these same people can continue to pompously opine on these matters, and still claim an entitlement to be listened to, without at least confessing their errors. The magnitude of misinformation and deceit in which our country was drowning during that time is difficult to convey. And from the fact that 70% of the country had been falsely persuaded that Saddam personally participated in the planning of the 9/11 attacks to the way in which our media mindlessly swallowed and regurgitated outright military fiction such as the Jessica Lynch fantasies, this carousel of shame and deceit is virtually endless.
There are not many episodes in our national history which can compete with the invasion of Iraq in terms of the profound failures of every one of our institutions -- failures which allowed this sort of deceit and detachment from reality to persist. But until we identify those responsible and end the influence which they continue to exert over our political dialogue, we will continue to be at risk of following them down these same deceitful, destructive paths.
UPDATE: One of the points to emphasize here, which may not have been sufficiently clear, is that these war advocates were not content to simply run around clucking about how right they were, but were insistent that those who oppose the war admit their error and be ashamed. Here is a particularly illustrative example from Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds, on April 11, 2003 (h/t Zack and Tom Tomorrow):
"FOR SUCH AN ADVANCED SPECIES, THEY SURE KNOW HOW TO RUB IT IN."-- Marge Simpson
Yeah, there has been a lot of pro-war gloating. And I guess that Dawn Olsen's cautionary advice about gloating is appropriate. So maybe we shouldn't rub in just how wrong, and morally corrupt the antiwar case was. Maybe we should rise above the temptation to point out that claims of a "quagmire" were wrong -- again! -- how efforts at moral equivalence were obscenely wrong -- again! -- how the antiwar folks are still, far too often, trying to move the goalposts rather than admit their error -- again -- and how an awful lot of the very same people who spoke lugubriously about "civilian casualties" now seem almost disappointed that there weren't more -- again -- and how many people who spoke darkly about the Arab Street and citizens rising up against American "liberators" were proven wrong -- again -- as the liberators were seen as just that by the people they were liberating. And I suppose we shouldn't stress so much that the antiwar folks were really just defending the interests of French oil companies and Russian arms-deal creditors. It's probably a bad idea to keep rubbing that point in over and over again.
Nah.
At least as far as I know, Glenn Reynolds has never corrected any of this, confessed error, or apologized to his readers for so drastically misleading them.
Funny how so many of them hate civil liberties, because if we didn't have such strong protections in this country, they would be in prison for the lies they told, and still tell.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Glenn.
ReplyDeleteIf these clueless chickenhawks and the dupes who parrot their risible lies had one scintilla of honor or shame they'd STFU already, but of course they will not ever do so.
On the contrary, from the comfort of their Barcaloungers, they urge other peoples' kids on to Tehran. Despicable.
Wikipedia says this about the origin of pundit:
ReplyDeleteThe term originates from the Indian term pandit, which refers to someone who chanted memorized holy texts at various events.
Apropos?
These pundits and the Bush propaganda machine have accomplished something I thought I would never see-a complete inability to trust the media or our government. Even though everyone puts their own spin on the facts, facts were facts. We now have Bush and these pundits willing to lie. And without an effective media out there to call a lie a lie we have become like the Soviet Union when most of the people just accepted that what they were being told was a lie. In the past we could trust the media to try and be impartial but with pundit journalism, we don't even have that. My question, where do we turn for the truth?
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorites is from Glenn Reynolds where he rubs those who opposed the war faces in it over how wrong they were in opposing the war. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
ReplyDeleteYeah, there has been a lot of pro-war gloating. And I guess that Dawn Olsen’s cautionary advice about gloating is appropriate. So maybe we shouldn’t rub in just how wrong, and morally corrupt the antiwar case was. Maybe we should rise above the temptation to point out that claims of a “quagmire” were wrong — again! — how efforts at moral equivalence were obscenely wrong — again! — how the antiwar folks are still, far too often, trying to move the goalposts rather than admit their error — again — and how an awful lot of the very same people who spoke lugubriously about “civilian casualties” now seem almost disappointed that there weren’t more — again — and how many people who spoke darkly about the Arab Street and citizens rising up against American “liberators” were proven wrong — again — as the liberators were seen as just that by the people they were liberating. And I suppose we shouldn’t stress so much that the antiwar folks were really just defending the interests of French oil companies and Russian arms-deal creditors. It’s probably a bad idea to keep rubbing that point in over and over again.
Nah.
You've just scratched the surface on this extremely important story. We must look back on recent history (especially when current events are going so badly) and expose the lies and deceit that got us, as a nation, here. We should not wait for the historians to decide in 20-30 years (what Mr. Hinderaker is hoping for).
ReplyDeleteAnd while it is so vital to expose the purveyors of misinformation we must remember that they could not have done it so freely, so openly and in such a coordinated fashion without direct and indirect aid (including financial) from the Bush administration.
There seems to be some misunderstanding in the United States about the words 'power' and 'strength'.
ReplyDeleteAnd it seems to finally be playing out now.
The United States may be a very powerful nation in that it has all sorts of weapons, conventional and nuclear, that can blow up or destroy other nations. But as we see now these weapons are not enough - we don't have enough weapons and resources to eliminate the problem.
In my opinion the real strength of a true nation can be found in the people of a nation and the ideas of the people. We spend billions of dollars on hardware of which we will never have enough. And the use of this hardware (read:weapons) will only cause the people on whom it is used to hate and despise us.
We spend lip service on education and thus completely fail to build the real strength of our nation which is its people. We are afraid and manipulated because we are not educated and have no interest in other opinions or ways of thinking.
GWB said: You are either with us or against us. What he meant to say is that we are right and they are wrong. I think this simpleminded statement shows many similarities to history - the Roman Empire comes to mind.
"One of the points to emphasize here, which may not have been sufficiently clear, is that these war advocates were not content to simply run around clucking about how right they were, but were insistent that those who oppose the war admit their error and be ashamed."
ReplyDeleteYeah, but so what?
So they should shut up, and people shouldn't listen to them in the future, because they were so very wrong?
Ok.
Was that your entire point in this post?
I can see why you might want to say that, and that it's a totally defensible point, but I think I'm missing the reason that you think it's an important or interesting thing to occupy your time saying.
I'm genuinely confused: can you help me out here?
Yesterday in the Nixon Law post comments, I quoted the Hinderaker "20-30 years before we'll know of we won" crapola, and one of our stalwart, anonymous Bush apologists defended Powerline, likening Iraq to the Korean War, and insisting:
ReplyDeleteI think the American people are sophisticated enough to realize our military committment in Iraq is likely to persist for decades and are ready to support that committment as long as the level of violence subsides significantly in the relatively near future.
That "as long as" sure seems a promising eventuality. (rolling eyes.)
On 3/5, Reynolds posted a dissing of "civil-war mongering" wrt Iraq, and declared (his emphasis):
ReplyDeleteThe press had better hope we win this war, because if we don't, a lot of people will blame the media. ... Others write that if we lose the war it won't be the press's fault, but the fault of Chimpy McHitlerburton. Well, maybe. But even so, that won't change the fact that a press that looks in many ways as if it's rooting for defeat won't make an appealing scapegoat for a lot of people. Given the press's concern for how it's perceived in various communities, you'd think it would care enough to avoid being perceived as unpatriotic by the patriotic-American community.
So...what is it exactly he thinks patriotic Americans should do to the "unpatriotic" press -- which had better be fearful, apparently -- if we don't win? Which of course, we won't know for another 20-30 years.
The pundit class you discuss in this post appears to me to be profoundly insular. At heart, this brand is conservatism seems to have defined a broad set of governing beliefs then constructed a set of principles around them. The belief system upon which these principles is based assumes underlying assumptions that are unquestioned and like a house of cards cannot withstand outside pressure or scrutiny. In other words, these underlying assumptions are often profoundly anti-intellectual.
ReplyDeleteExample: My con-law professor was a real piece of work. This fellow was very well educated, even intelligent. He was also a religous zealot who had written several books all dealing with salvation through "blood", or the "blood of Christ". His relious fervor extended to his views of the law; i.e. that our Constitution was founded on religious principles and that there should be no separation between church and state, etc. He was an active member of the Federalist Society and a huge proponent of overt religiosity in schools and other public forums.
When I saw Prof. Turner from Univ. of Va. on C-Span with Glenn and heard him spouting off on the "unitary executive" theory, I thought of my con-law professor. His whole belief system is simply skewed. And where those who espouse these beliefs remain closed to discussions/questions; i.e. the free flow of ideas, their philosophy atrophies over time, like stagnant water.
This probably makes no sense but I post it anyway for discussion.
The Death of Outrage. The Death of Shame. The Death of the Fourth Amendment. The Death of the Rule of Law. The Death of Reason. Yikes, there's a mass funeral out the window lately. Well, the weather can change overnight, and hopefully the Death of Tyranny is today's forecast.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Glenn, and speaking of great posts, everyone, Glenn has a guest blog (left column, scroll down a bit) on Huffington Post today. Go visit him there too and post a comment! It's a different audience, and well worth reaching.
Was that your entire point in this post?
ReplyDeleteHe explained "the point" - I thought quite convincingly:
This is worth noting not because this is a time for recriminations or because of the satisfaction which one can derive from a celebratory "I-told-you-so" moment. It is critical to focus on who was right about this war because this country, right now, has extremely difficult choices to make with regard to the disaster it has created in Iraq – and the first choice is whose judgment and foreign policy wisdom ought to be listened to and accorded respect.
Do you know how to read?
BTW, the thing Glenn Reynolds reminds me of most is a mosquito. How this guy got as prominent as he is remains one of life's great mysteries.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, he's so yesterday, now that the real Glenn has stepped forward.
All's well that ends well!
wilson -
ReplyDeletei can read.
that's why I stated Glenn's point, as
"So they should shut up, and people shouldn't listen to them in the future, because they were so very wrong?"
I was asking a genuine question: is it important or even interesting to point out that these people were and are wrong, given that they were obviously wrong at the time, who continue to be obviously wrong now, and who are thus obviously not even speaking out a concern for truth?
To do so confuses motivation with reason - e.g. it doesn't matter whether they are worng or right since they are speaking because they are paid ideologues. The reasons they give are beside the point, which is why they give them up so easily.
It doesn't strike me as an interesting thing for intelligent people to occupy their time with failing to understand something so throughly that they criticize the one thing that's obviously superfluous.
That's why I was asking Glenn whether he had anything more interesting to say.
You ass.
My brother's a ship designer and has been working closely with the Navy/Pentagon for a couple of decades for a big defense contractor. He's anything but a knee-jerk conservative, but he's definitely been pulled from the left of the spectrum when we were growing up to the right.
ReplyDeleteHad an interesting and frustrating talk with him over the weekend. He's completely disdainful of W and all, but wants to vote for McCain in 2008. The part that got to me though--relevant to the thread--is when my other (much more lefty) brother and I were talking to him about the pre-war hyping.
Basically he was taking the "everyone thought Saddam had WMDs" line. "I was never that big on the rest of those guys but I figured if Colin Powell said it, there must be something to it and we had to go in and find out."
My problem: how do you convince someone that a LOT of us knew at the time that it was b.s.? My other (lefty) brother tried, and all we got was sarcasm about "Well you must have been a lot smarter than everyone else."
But goddamit, we weren't. We were just paying attention to other than MSM sources. Almost every point Powell made had been convincingly debunked within 48 hours to a week after his speech, online. Not to mention the other announcements of WMD "evidence" that had also been rapidly debunked over the previous months--if you gotta lie about it, you probably don't have a case.
But there's no easy way to document any of that when you're just jawing with your beloved and persuadable but right-of-center brother. You just sound like an after-the-fact know it all. Even though the point is kind of the opposite--that millions of us did see what was coming and if we could see it, informed by no great expertise other than a rational brain, a knowledge of recent history and a respect for the lessons agonizingly learned therefrom, then why couldn't our leaders, especially those in the "opposition" party, who all seemed to be rolling over for this madness?
Obviously pillars of the KoolAid Korps like RectumRocket are finally and fundamentally immune to persuasion. But it's a hard bubble to pop even for a mildly conservative or centrist guy like my brother as well. The absolutely epic, monumental scale of the blunder of Iraq--and of W himself--forms a kind of protective barrier. No one wants to admit they've been made that big a fool of.
At 12:58 pm, comment from anonymous essentially asked: "so what" at the fact the chickenhawk pundits have been proven completely wrong by the last 3 years.
ReplyDeleteFair comment, I say.
Yes, they were to a one wrong in their assumptions and predictions. No surprise to those of us living in real world.
Yes, not a one has yet to admit their error or own up to their part in this tragedy. Again, no surprise.
Yes, they continue to try (some with increasing desperation) to justify this madness by appeals to the past or to 'history'. Again, no surprise.
And, lets be honest about it, this is a bunch that never knew 'shame' to begin with. Between the historonics during the Clinton administration and the ongoing unravelling of the Bush administration, plus all the storm clouds on the horizon none of them want to talk about, for them to actually speak to any issue of genuine relevance would entail them surrendering their comforting fantasies about themselves and the world at large.
We see it here as well, with our resident contrarians putting forth opinions on Iraq and the ongoing NSA wiretapping scandal that, put charitably, have been debunked or refuted time and again (usually by Glenn himself).
Is it really so difficult to grasp the President knowingly and deliberately ignored the law by authorizing the program under discussion? Regardless of whether one thinks FISA as 'constitutional' or otherwise, the law was duly passed by Congress, signed into law, and has been the part of the US Code since. Presidents, like the rest of us, don't get to choose which laws they do or do not obey; indeed, they have a moral obligation if nothing else to obey the laws of the land as they are the duly elected leader, and thus must set the example.
Given present circumstances? One wonders if we aren't seeing a reincarnation of the Borgias family.
Back to the pundits. Look, these guys are essentially clowns and performance artists that think themselves important. Yes, they get a lot of media exposure, and yes, they set the tone for much of the public's dialogue on issues.
Can it be countered? I think that's where the blogsphere is shaping into establishing itself.
Any comments there?
For myself, and as one who did come to support the invasion of Iraq after a dithering period of ambivalence beforehand, I found it extremely difficult to know whom to believe. There were those on the anti-war left (and right) who had opposed removing the Taliban, and who predicted Vietnam-style quagmire. Along comes Iraq, and it was hard for me to determine whether the naysaying wasn't more of that reflexive opposition to any U.S. military action. (And I'm no expert on military matters, so I was looking for those who were, who I trusted.)
ReplyDeleteBut I also was never a neocon, in that I didn't believe mere democracy with elections was some magic bullet that turned peoples into classically liberal states where liberty reigns supreme. Several countries of the former Soviet Union had amply demonstrated that peoples with no history of the rule of law and civil liberties, don't govern themselves well once a totalitarian system crumbles.
Eventually, I opted to read a lot of Middle Eastern blogs, figuring the bloggers would not be driven by the partisan biases that obtain here in the U.S. These bloggers seemed the most likely to tell the truth about the state of affairs on the ground, and to prognosticate the most reliably.
One of these was an Egyptian, one Big Pharaoh, who ardently wants a secular Egypt governed according to a civil-libertarian rule of law. But he has long warned that simply removing Mubarek, and having elections, would actually make things worse: he said the religious nutjobs in the Muslim Brotherhood would likely win any election.
So, I knew that an insistence that the news from Iraq was mostly good, no matter what the "defeatist" media said, could be wrong. When Mohammed at Iraq the Model despairingly reported the carnage in Baghdad and announced his elderly father believed the vicious sectarian tribalism in Iraq would doom the democracy project, well that was it for me. That's not the American left or any corrupt media; that's from people who are actually living the debacle.
What a wonderful thing hindsight is - you really made a case for predicting the past here.
ReplyDeleteCase in point - your gloating about the chemical weapon claim. I remember that very well - it turned out not to be true on further testing, but it was a major news story and it's not surprising the blogs covered it. You did not the use of the word 'apparently', did you not?
That's not cheerleading, it's commenting on the current news.
This is good...
ReplyDelete"the attractions of American popular culture will insidiously undermine the medieval reign of the mullahs..."
Let's see. Those attactions would be:
tv and movies?
tv and movie stars?
advertising?
video games?
rock and roll?
women's rights?
materialism?
Why, those all seem to be aided and abetted by that Hollywood crowd that is so liberal. Or the rest of the media establishment.
Hmmmm.
- jw
Yes, those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. They still don't believe they are/were wrong, so how do we expect them to change?
ReplyDeleteHypatia, excellent comment at 1:56. I too was filled with similar feelings, ambivalency, and uncertainty and also sought answers (unfortunately not found in traditional US media)on the internet (blogs)and in the foreign press. But perhaps in the end on the Iraq issue, I was eventually naively swayed by the "Big Lie" theory...I mean they wouldn't possibly deceive and mislead us about something as important and major as a War of choice would they? *sigh* lesson learned.
Lastly, I still think Clinton summed up this whole affair the best with his comment, Strength and Wisdom are not opposing values. Perhaps those words are far more prescient than ever now.
---emm
Glenn: In a blog posting two weeka ago, I analyzed how and why we got into this situation, as well as the underlying reasons for how and why the neocons were able to successfully push their agenda.
ReplyDeleteThe gist of my analysis is that the US public wanted to believe the lies and deception purveyed by the media, the neocons, and Liberal war mongers. Impelled by mass hysteria and fear from the event of 911, the American public sought revenge. They were therefore willing to hear every message that promised to wreak this vengeance.
To blame leaders for exploiting the situation is indeed in order. But there is also some soul-searching that each individual in the US must make to find those self-delusions that led them to want to find the need to visit cruelty and death on others.
For those who wish to find a philosophical analysis, I suggest you take a look at Judith Shklar's essay on cruelty and the Liberalism of Fear. Closely reading Montaigne and Montesqieu, she shows that humans will find numerous reasons to destroy and rend others to pieces.
PS How secure should we feel now that the debacle in Iraq slips into civil war? Consider the survey that shows that a significant minority in the US still think saddam was behind 911. On top of that, nearly 6 in 10 think Saddam had WMDs.
Where is Joseph Heller when we need him? Enjoy ...
ReplyDeleteIs Your Blood Pressure Too Low?
by tristero
I can't go. I'd probably have a thrombo, as Austin Powers sez. But if you live in New York, and you're starting to feel much too calm and relaxed, you can get your blood racing on Monday night by going to a yak-fest at Miller Theater, Columbia U entitled Iraq: Three Years Later. The participants are Noah Feldman, Victor Davis Hanson, Joe Klein, Kenneth M. Pollack, and Andrew Sullivan.
It is bound to be a thoughtful, serious discussion. There will be no third-rate minds on hand - you know, the kind of childish, unimaginative mentalities that thought in 2002 that Bush's invasion of Iraq was the stupidest fucking idea they'd heard in their lifetimes.
Glenn is 100% right. People succeed in life and gain others' trust because of their records. It's insanity to expect that anyone who has been consistently wrong will be right in the future.
ReplyDeleteSo speaking of "pundits", it's well worth looking back on what the best of all pundits at the time was saying. This man was so prescient, it's literally scary.
Which is why we should carefully heed his present words ("From Superpower to Tinhorn Dictatorship") about the "soft fascism" this country will have slipped into by the end of Bush's second term if nothing happens that puts the brakes on that developing tragedy.
Here's Paul Craig Roberts sounding the alarm BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. I will later post his article written just after the attack actually took place.
Read this article. It's brilliantly prophetic.
Before invading, consider the risks
Wars have unintended consequences even for those who win them. Before the United States invades Iraq, let us give careful consideration to unintended consequences.
Sep 18, 2002
by Paul Craig Roberts
Wars have unintended consequences even for those who win them. Before the United States invades Iraq, let us give careful consideration to unintended consequences. The possibility is real that a U.S. invasion would stir up 1 billion Muslims at a time when the United States has run out of both money and belief. Government edifices in the Middle East are built on a political fissure. Secular rulers lack the support of large and fervent percentages of populations that are influenced by mullahs and Muslim schools. An American attack on Iraq could further compromise the Pakistani, Egyptian and Saudi Arabian governments, leading to their eventual overthrow. Saddam Hussein is bad news. But is removing him worth the risk of delivering large populations and Pakistani nuclear missiles into the hands of hostile Islamic governments? Before invading Iraq, the United States should be certain that an invasion will not play into radical hands and unite the Middle East against us. Israel, too, is at risk. Whereas one of the goals of the invasion of Iraq is to reduce threats to Israel, the threats will increase if secular governments topple. In order to protect Israel, the United States could find itself at war with much of the Middle East. Does the United States have the economic and cultural strength for such an undertaking? Few policymakers realize U.S. weaknesses. In recent decades, the United States has lost much of its economic, cultural and psychological strength. Twenty years ago when I was assistant secretary of the treasury, the U.S. trade deficit was due to oil imports. Today, America has a $350 billion annual deficit in manufactured goods. Millions of well-paying manufacturing jobs, including engineering and development jobs, have been exported to China, India and other low-cost countries. America's loss of jobs that provided middle-class incomes and upward mobility, together with the annual importation of millions of poor and unskilled immigrants, have dramatically reduced our economy's income growth potential. The loss of high productivity jobs and the importation of low productivity immigrants cannot be rectified with monetary and fiscal policies. Lower per-capita real income growth is the price the United States pays for exporting jobs and importing people. American employment no longer generates the income to support America's share of world consumption. Foreigners finance our consumption by their willingness to hold dollars. Lower U.S. growth potential will reduce foreign willingness to hold dollars. A dollar declining in value would make it difficult for the United States to pacify the Middle East and defend Israel. A declining dollar would also raise the cost of the foreign manufactured goods on which America has become dependent. Militarily and economically, Iraq is no match for the United States. But if the invasion stirs a Muslim hornets' nest, America could find itself embroiled in a wider and prolonged conflict that is beyond its economic means. Stomach for conflict also requires belief, but the United States is culturally and psychologically hollowed out. America is no longer a homogeneous or united country. Politics are organized along race and gender lines. White Americans, especially males, are under assault as "hegemonic oppressors." They are demonized in the universities and media, and discriminated against in university admissions, employment and promotion. A prolonged U.S. conflict with Muslims will be cast as a "white man's war against people of color." The vast inflow of immigrants from the Third World and Muslimized native-born blacks have no commitment to Israel. The white majority has been politically and culturally marginalized to the extent that the United States cannot control its borders. A marginalized majority cannot sustain prolonged conflict. America faces a terrorist threat for two reasons: immigration and the security arrangement with Israel. Before risking stirring up the Middle East by invading Iraq, the United States should hold an unemotional debate on immigration and on the commitment to Israel. If the United States is to maintain its security commitment to Israel, and if no political and economic accommodation can be made with Arabs that would reduce their hostility to Israel, the United States must close its borders and prepare for war with the Middle East.
Of course, he could never have imagined at that point that what would in fact happen is that the "threat" from within would be addressed instead by rounding up and shipping off to detainee gulags all those "people of color" who might, legitimately, not support the invasion of Iraq, and in service to that endeavor, and by establishing a dictatorship that has begun to strip away the civil liberties of all Americans.
According to U.S. News and World Report a, White House lawyers argued for the right to conduct warrantless searches of terrorism suspects on U.S. soil after the 9/11 attacks based on the "same legal authority" as President Bush's ostensibly illegal wiretapping program.
ReplyDeleteSoon after the September 11th 2001 terrorist attacks, lawyers for the White House and the Justice Department argued that the same legal authority that allowed warrantless electronic surveillance inside the United States could also be used to justify physical searches of terror suspects' homes and businesses without court approval. According to two current and former government officials, the Bush Administration lawyers presented the arguments to senior FBI officials who expressed strong reservations about the proposal. It has yet be determined whether any warrantless physical searches have been carried out under the legal authority cited by the Administration, but at least one defense attorney representing a terrorism suspect has alleged that his law office and home may have been searched without a court warrant.
The prolific and perspicacious Georgia10 (scroll down), at Daily Kos, has another incisive post about how the above revelation essentially “red lines” the 4th Amendment. Of course all of this is just more incendiary information building the pyre of my imminent and spontaneous self immolation. W/T/F/; if we have begun actually to shred the U.S. Constitution, then this metaphorical War on Terror is lost already (although how one can lose an imaginary war, I don’t know.) – and the noble experiment called the United States of America essentially extinct. “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”
Between watching this murderous assault taking place right now in Iraq, the oddly named Operation Swarmer; listening to the bellicose and hypocritical propaganda by Administration mouthpieces providing a precursive justification for their ineluctable assault on the innocent population of Iran (just another population of human life trying to live, co-opted by a corrupt and insane government); trying to understand the circumambulating logic and rhetorical pabulum of any member of Congress or the Senate, other than Russ Never Sleeps Feinstein; any cursory look at the legislation (outright thievery, obstructionism, corporate giveaways, etc.) coming out of these bodies of politic; and, as referenced in this, another of Mr. Greenwald’s trenchant posts, perusing the many illustrations of our complicit and incompetent (prevaricating and obfuscating) media; I conclude that nothing short of a revolution in this land of ours, a taking back from the usurpers, will affect any meaningful change. Count me in.
"So they should shut up, and people shouldn't listen to them in the future, because they were so very wrong?"
ReplyDeleteThat's not *exactly* what I got out of what Glenn was saying. I think Glenn's fine with all these folks saying whatever the hell it is they want to say, so... no, they shouldn't shut up. But yes to that second thing: we *should* stop listening to them (and major mainstream media outlets should *really* stop giving them such a loud magaphone with which to bloviate) unless and until they demonstrate a modicum of intellectual integrity by doing the following:
a) admitting their gross errors, and
b) ceasing their habits of demanding retractions from their antagonists whom they believe to be in error when they, themselves, so dramatically fail to retract errors of their own.
That was what I got out of it Glenn's post. And I, personally, found it pretty compelling... particularly that list of contextualized quotes (not just for the disinformation provided in them, but for the bombast with which the disinformation tended to be provided). If you, on the other hand, found the post boring, well, not every thing is interesting to every person.
That's totally okay.
Glenn'll write more.
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Sonny:
ReplyDeleteThey'll say, "the long-term Hindraker prediction is correct and and was always the intended goal. Everything else was pablum for the masses in order to drum up support for what would be an unpopular war."
Patrick -
ReplyDelete"...a modicum of intellectual integrity"
I guess I just view the entire issue of intellectual integrity among the pundits as beside the point: it's willfully imputes to an antagonist concerns you yourself have without any indication they do share those concerns, and I would say overwhelming evidence that they don't share those concerns.
That's engaging in self-deception, and, especially when done for rhetorical effect, it's a waste.
But you're right, we can disagree.
Reason has an interesting round-up of views on Iraq, 3 years-post invasion. Among those surveyed is Glenn Reynolds:
ReplyDeleteGlenn Reynolds
1. Did you support the invasion of Iraq?
Yes.
2. Have you changed your position?
No. Sanctions were failing and Saddam was a threat, making any other action in the region impossible.
3. What should the U.S. do in Iraq now?
Win.
3. What should the U.S. do in Iraq now?
ReplyDeleteWin.
Should have asked Hindrocket
4. What do you mean by 'win'.
Jackie Gleason is dead, but his old 'hummina-hummina' will never die.
Oh no! Indulge me, please, and read the article below. I am having trouble remaining unemotional as I deal with the realization of just how brilliant this one man was, and is, and how prophetic were his writings at the time.
ReplyDeleteI know this is Glenn's blog, but as the powerful voice of Paul Craig Roberts has been
"marginalized" in recent years, because the Republicans have done to him what the Democrats are now doing to Feingold, I ask Glenn's indulgence for posting these articles which so relate to Glenn's basic point today about the pundits who were so wrong but are still out there shamelessly spouting away.
How about those who were so right, or was PCR the only one?
A strategic blunder?
Apr 3, 2003
by Paul Craig Roberts
Despite stiff and unexpected Iraqi resistance, the U.S. invasion of Iraq is likely to succeed in toppling Saddam Hussein -- and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, President Bush, the Republican Party and American neoconservatives.
Wars have unintended consequences as well as unexpected developments. The White House, the Pentagon, our troops and the public were surprised that Saddam Hussein did not "collapse after the first whiff of gunpowder," as Richard Perle, the principle architect of the war, had optimistically predicted. The promised "cakewalk" quickly bogged down into a stalemate, and other major setbacks have occurred.
The Pentagon has been sobered by the halting of our vaunted invasion force by lightly armed Iraqi irregular troops and tribesmen. U.S. reinforcements have been ordered that will double our fighting capability. In the meantime, there will be 40 days and nights of bombing to soften the as-yet-unfaced soldiers of the Republican Guard.
The casualties, both civilian and military, that are now expected to await us in Baghdad were not anticipated when our soldiers embarked on the liberation of Iraq. As serious as this miscalculation is, other miscalculations may prove to be even more deadly.
The American invasion has made a Muslim hero out of Saddam Hussein, a secular dictator who has spent his political life suppressing Islamic political parties. Even worse, the invasion has achieved the "Palestinization" of the Muslim world and has united Muslims against us.
Muslims see the invasion of Iraq not as liberation but as conquest and re-colonization. Samir Ragab, the staid chairman of the hitherto moderate Egyptian Gazette, editorialized on March 27: "The U.S. and Israel are one and the same thing. Their common objective is to enfeeble Arabs and tear their nation to pieces."
"It is genocide to me," says Cairo Times reporter Summer Said. Even Christian Arabs have turned against us: George Elnaber, a 36-year-old owner of an Amman, Jordan, supermarket says: "Bush is an occupier and terrorist. We hate Americans more than we hate Saddam now."
Similar sentiments are being expressed millionsfold throughout the Middle East and Muslim Asia. They reflect the overnight radicalization of the Muslim world, which will affect politics. On March 31, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said: "When it is over, if it is over, this war will have horrible consequences. Instead of having one bin Laden, we will have 100 bin Ladens."
Secular Middle Eastern rulers, who have suppressed Islamic political parties, are isolated from the populations that they govern. Islamic political movements were making headway, most notably in Pakistan and Turkey, prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq. The invasion has energized Islamic politicians. Leaders of the Mutahida Majlas-e-Aamal (MMA), a ruling religious party alliance in Northwest Pakistan, responded by demanding that Pakistan's "coward leaders" be pushed aside so that Pakistan's nuclear arms can be used "for the protection of the Muslim world." Not even our NATO ally Turkey would permit us to move troops across its territory.
Deluded, perhaps, by the pro-war propaganda gushing from the U.S. news media and neoconservative magazines, Secretary of State Colin Powell and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld have foolishly further inflamed Muslim opinion by issuing "warnings" to Syria and Iran. Such warnings are regarded as threats. In an interview with the Beirut daily newspaper A-Safir, Syrian President Bashar Assad responded to the threats, "We will not wait until we become the next target."
Clearly, U.S. policymakers lack understanding of the volatile region of the world in which they are exercising a heavy hand. With amazing hubris, U.S. policymakers have stirred up thousands of Islamic terrorists whose future victims could dwarf in number the deaths of Sept. 11 and the Iraq war combined.
The same policymakers have exacerbated distrust of the United States throughout the world. The Russian government publicly announced that it expects the Americans to plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in order to justify the excuse used to invade Iraq. The Russians said that they will believe no such American claim without independent international inspection. What kind of cooperation can a country so distrusted expect?
The U.S. invasion of Iraq is a strategic blunder, the costs of which will mount over the next half century. If there is to be a silver lining to this military adventure, perhaps it will be the realization among the American public that the neoconservative agenda of conquest of the Muslim Middle East is beyond our available strength, thus diverting America from a disastrous course, which would consume our blood and treasure.
I mean really! This man writes like someone slipped him an advance copy of the script.
This is amazing stuff.
First there was Paul Craig Roberts, then along came Glenn, and now there's Feingold.
I know Feingold was out there all along, but his voice was so singular, and his efforts so dismissed by everyone in Washington and the media, that the power elite was able to marginalize him and paint him as a kook.
But there is a rhythm in life, and what it took to catapult Feingold back onto the stage where he always deserved to be playing the lead, was:
l) The publication of the NYTimes article.
2) Glenn's pouncing on that issue and bringing its full implications out into the open.
3) The Port deal. I know this sounds trivial by comparison, but it was vital. It represented the first real crack in the Republican monolith, got everyone's attention, and started the ball rolling.
Happy Days! We're rocking and rolling now!
But let's not forget now that we are who was right from the beginning: Paul Craig Roberts. Even Feingold voted in favor of invading Iraq, didn't he? But Paul Craig Roberts was screaming before it even started that there were unintended consequences that would make it a disaster that could destroy America.
There sure were.
Credit where due.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteFollowing are some excerpts from those who continue to hold themselves out as military and political experts -- those who insisted back in April, 2003 that war opponents had the obligation to keep quiet and admit their shattering defeat, but who refuse to apply those standards to themselves in light of their horrendous, incredibly destructive errors:
ReplyDeleteHorrendous, incredibly destructive errors? This should be interesting...
Powerline, April 25, 2003
Victor Davis Hanson for National Review Online suggests that the war against Saddam Hussein may actually have been the "hard part" and that there are many good reasons for optimism about what lies ahead in Iraq and elsewhere in the region.
Do you have Dr. Hanson's actual posting as opposed to this hearsay rendition? There is no assertion of fact here which could be erroneous. Only that Dr. Hanson is optimistic after the utter defeat of the Iraqi Army by the coalition. As the linked FAIR post shows, virtually the entire Donkey press corps was far more "optimistic" than this hearsay of a Dr. Hanson blog.
Powerline, April 22, 2003
The end of the Iraq war has slowed, but by no means stopped, "antiwar" activity.
This is absolutely correct.
Brendan Miniter, Assistant Editor, Wall St. Journal's Opinion Journal.com
It's amazing that more than two weeks into the liberation of Iraq--as residents in Basra are cheering British forces and Americans occupy Baghdad's airport and Saddam Hussein's main presidential palace--the antiwar crowd is still spinning a doomsday scenario. But it's getting harder and harder to take seriously the claim that freeing Iraq will make it harder to win the war on terrorism.
Indeed, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. U.S. forces apparently found chemical weapons yesterday.
This is demonstrably correct as well.
Residents of Basra, Baghdad and several other locations in Iraq were filmed, photographed and witnessed cheering the liberating troops of the Coalition. Polls of Iraqis since that time consistently show that a vast majority of Iraqis support their liberation from Saddam and do not want to go back despite the ongoing mass murder by their enemies.
I am unsure to which report of chemical weapon discovery the WSJ is referring here. However, the Coaltion as confirmed by Kay and Duelfer did find at least 35 liters of sarin and mustard gas, live biological weapon materials, tons of pesticide on several military bases which could be used as the precursors for making more nerve gas and tons of yellow cake uranium.
The location and disposition of the other WMD stocks which Saddam admitted to the UN that he possessed in the early 90s is still an open matter of debate.
CIA's Kay and Duelfer both alleged that they believe that Saddam destroyed these WMD stockpiles at some point before the war. However, neither man could offer any physical or documentary evidence of this alleged destruction.
Duelfer stated in his final report that he believed that Saddam destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992. The basis of this belief were statements made by Saddam's head of WMD development after he "defected" in the mid 90s. However, that same chief of WMD is recorded at a staff meeting in 1995 telling Saddam that Iraq has lied to the UN and failed to disclose the scope. location and quantities of its WMD stockpiles, WMD manufacturing capabilities and WMD precursor supplies.
Neither Kay nor Duelfer could rule out that the WMD stockpiles were in fact sent to Syria before that war with the tons of UN tagged WMD manufacturing equipment and Iraqi WMD scientists which Kay and Duelfer confirmed were shipped to Syria before the war. The Israelis, CENTCOM, the Iraqi AF second in command and a CIA agent with sources in the Ukraine have offered different accounts of how this movement to Syria occurred. None of these claims are dispositive because they are based on second hand accounts.
The CIA mass release of captured Iraqi government documents and tapes for translation by interested civilians should be very useful clearing up the ultimate disposition of these WMD.
Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 25, 2003
Iran may think it smart to use its fundamentalist agents to undermine the American achievement in Iraq. But look at the newly constituted map, where it suddenly finds itself surrounded by reformist movements. The omnipresence of the United States, twenty years of failure inside Iran, and the attractions of American popular culture will insidiously undermine the medieval reign of the mullahs faster than it can do harm to the foundations of democracy in Baghdad. . . .
All the assertions of fact in this post are correct.
Iran is surrounded by two new democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan which are closely aligned with the US. Indeed, the Iraqi government is majority Shia like Iran.
Iran's "islamic republic" has been a failure as a political economy. Any pretense that the government was genuinely pluralistic was abandoned when the Mullahs repeatedly barred opposition candidates. The economy has been a disaster and there are literally hundreds of thousands of educated and un or underemployed Iraqi young people who oppose the theocracy.
We also must keep the projected costs in perspective. Despite the frenzied charges, we probably so far have spent no more $30 billion on the military operations of Operation Iraqi Freedom — not the "hundreds of billions" forecast by alarmists who sometimes slipped into "trillions."
Victor Davis Hanson, National Review Online, April 17, 2003
From your blurb, we cannot tell where Hanson derives his $30 billion figure for military operations. However, this figure appear to be correct for that period of time.
Hanson is completely correct that there was and is very little support for the sensationalistic claims that the war will cost more than a trillion dollars.
A fair historical assessment will soon emerge that attributes our victory not to Iraqi weaknesses per se. Rather it was the American ability on the ground and air in a matter of hours to decapitate the command-and-control apparatus of the Baathist regime that alone allowed bridges, oil wells, power plants, and harbors to be saved, and chemical weapons not to be used.
Powerline, April 26, 2003
This post refers to the decisive Coalition defeat of the Iraq Army and gives a good summary of the major factors in that victory.
It is easy enough in nearly all cases to determine who has won a war. However, I do not know of any criteria for determining who has won a peace. No doubt, this is why liberals have recently embraced the phrase. They can't deny that President Bush has won his two wars, and won them resoundingly. But liberals still can make the nebulous, unverifiable claim that he has lost, or will soon lose, the peace.
Powerline, April 21, 2003
The Iraq War had two parts.
First, the defeat of the Iraqi Army and the removal of the Baathist dictatorship. That part was won decisively and completely and was the subject of all of these posts.
The second part was the pre-planned terror campaigns by Baathist and al Qeada irregular forces against the Coalition and all the Iraqis participating in the new democracy.
Recently translated Iraqi documents indicate that Saddam trained 8000 terrorists over the four years leading up to the war, dispersed arms and supplies and established funding outside of the country.
Recently translated Iraqi Fehedeen (sp?) documents indicate that al Qeada was well established in Iraq by at least 2002 and had recruited a couple thousand Iraqis to fight the Coalition in Afghanistan. These documents contain photographs and descriptions of Zarqawi leading the al Qaeda recruiting effort in Iraq.
No one knew about these plans before the war.
The Baathists and al Qeada are not leading some sort of a nationalistic guerilla war offering an alternative political system as the Vietnam comparisons would lead you to believe. The Baathists are a subset of the 20% of the Iraqi population who are Sunni Arab and al Qeada are almost all foreign invaders.
Nor is there a "civil war" between Sunni and Shia Iraqis as claimed by the anti-war movement. There is no Lebanon style battles between Iraqi Sunni and Shia militia. The vast majority of the so called "sectarian violence" consists of suicide bombings by foreign al Qaeda against Shia and now some Sunni in an attempt to set off a civil war. This foreign invasion of suicide bombers by definition cannot be one side of an Iraq civil war.
Judith Miller, writing in Monday's New York Times, records what could be a breakthrough in the search for illicit weapons of mass destruction.
Some time ago, an Iraqi passed a note to American soldiers saying that he was a scientist who had worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program. The note languished for a while because the troops were fighting and because similar tips had proved to be blind alleys. But a few days ago, a MET Alpha chemical weapons detection team from the 101st Airborne tracked the man down, and he led them to buried chemical weapons components. So far, his story seems to check out--and if what is now being reported is true, it's dynamite.
The scientist stole documents, samples, and other evidence of the program that he worked on, and buried them in his back yard. He says that in the days before the war started, major efforts were undertaken to either destroy, bury or otherwise hide Iraq's illicit weapons. He reportedly has led American soldiers to at least one site where such weapons (or weapons components) are buried.
I cannot tell from this blurb whether this is one of the scientists who were hiding WMD program materials as confirmed in the Kay interim WMD report.
Powerline, on Dick Morris, April 15, 2003
"Never before have Americans had the chance to watch the establishment media while also seeing events unfold for themselves, live, on television. Our collective understanding of the dissonance between the two is breeding a distrust of the major news organs that will likely long outlast this war."
Actually, Morris was prescient in this regard. The Press has been caught spreading around unconfirmed rumors as verified reporting several times since 2003.
The most recent example was the "civil war" which never actually occurred after the Sammara Mosque bombing. The western reporters did not personally go on the streets and observe what they were reporting. Instead, they were and continue to rely upon Iraqi stringers who apparently sold them a bill of goods. The "hundreds" of mosques under attack ended up being about 18, almost all of which had little or no damage. None of our military could find any of the alleged widespread street battles between militias. Ralph Peters was tooled around in a Humvee embedded with a military unit in Baghdad and didn't see any violence on the streets at all. He wrote a series of reports afterward excoriating the press for paying for lies.
Hinderaker in particular posted joyous and glorious photograps almost on a daily basis showing how our trimphant troops were welcomed as liberators by Iraqis, and they usually included captions from Hinderaker like this, from April 30, 2003:
With the war in Iraq winding down, the daily photos in Army Times include scenes of joyful homecomings.
Are you claiming that these photos were doctored?
It is truly difficult to understand how these same people can continue to pompously opine on these matters, and still claim an entitlement to be listened to, without at least confessing their errors.
What errors? You have yet to post a single error of fact.
My friend, I would avoid gloating about who was more correct in their pre-war predictions concerning Iraq.
The translations of just the first of what looks to be hundreds of thousands of captured Iraqi documents and tapes are putting the lie to anti-war claims that Iraq never possessed WMD and had no relationship with al Qeada.
You might want to keep an open mind in your blogs before your counterparts post a series of your statements alongside Iraqi intelligence and military documents stating the opposite.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteThat had to be one of the longest expressions of flatulence in blog comment history. You should see a doctor about that.
"What errors? You have yet to post a single error of fact."
ReplyDeleteDO YOU MEAN THIS KAY, the weapons inspector?
"I don't think they existed," Kay said in an interview with the Reuters news agency. "What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last Gulf War, and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the '90s."
[snip]
After his departure was announced, Kay voiced deep skepticism to the Reuters news agency that the administration's pre-war claims that Iraq was hiding large caches of illegal munitions will be validated.
Pointing out your BS is too easy to occupy my time.
I would urge everyone here to ignore BART.
If you don't know or can't tell, he's a regular troll here, and reponding to him is a waste of time, energy, and effort.
Bolstering an argument with the likes of Powerline bloggers isnt' exactly deep analysis of pre-invasion opinion. Using the likes of Glenn Reynolds who cites a blogger who wrote more often about her depression than any political opinion isn't exactly picking the best, if there is a best, of the pro-war faction.
ReplyDeletePowerline is read by 100,000 people per day, routinely appears on CNN, and was cited by TIME Magazine as blog of the year. Instapundit has an ever greater readership, including tons of mainstream media people. Charles Kruathammer is published by the Washington Post twice a week and is seen by millions of Americans on Fox. People like Ann Coulter are best-selling others whose ideas are everywhere.
Pro-war pundits probably had more to do with the way in which this war was sold to Americans than any single government official.
It always amazes me when people come and say "Why are you talking about them? They don't matter. Just ignore them. It's not fair to use their words against them and it's irrelevant what they say."
I find that attitude unfathomably dense. These pundits are attempting right now to exert influence over millions of Americans in how they think about the most important issues of the day. How could anyone think that their credibility and track record are "irrelevant"? I can't think of many things more valuable than destroying their credibility and showing how corrupt they are, what poor judgment they have, so that they aren't listened to any more.
Beyond just that, these pundits are a critical component of the right-wing Bush follower brand. The reason that the Right spends so much time and attention on people like Michael Moore or Barbra Streisand is because by making people like that symbols of the Left and then mocking their errors or highlighting their extremism, it makes all of the Left look bad. That is a very effective tactic the Right has used for a long time.
But not only do people on the other side not want to engage in that tactic, they will tell those who do that they should stop it. It makes no sense.
Many people have listed the pre-war statements of governemnt officials and media figures to show how wrong they were in what they said. This post was devoted to listing those statements for these pundits who speak to and influence - directly or indirectly - millions of people. Showing their horrendous record of poor judgment and deceit may be a lot of things, but "irrelevant" isn't one of them.
To what do all the "agains" in Glenn Reynolds' post refer? I get that he is talking about liberals repeating (again! AGAIN!!) demonstrably false claims, but which of his illustrative examples have any basis in reality? Here are all of Glenn Reynolds' "agains" broken down by short summary:
ReplyDelete1) Claims of quagmire
2) Moral equivalence
3) Shifting justification for assessing failure
4) Liberal disappointment over low civilian casualty numbers
5) Citizen uprising against Americans
WTF? I don't get it - are these areas where liberals have been consistently wrong in some imaginary previous war? Has some liberal expressed sadness that more civilians weren't killed? And which previous war is he supposed to be talking about? The anti-quagmire Vietnam and Korean wars?
And to top it off, "antiwar folks" are defenders of "French oil companies" and "Russian arms deal creditors?" Seriously, are there really conservatives that believe this crap?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteYou just constructed a pretty transparent strawman of that comment. the argument wasn't that they're irrelevant but that they're of low-quality - e.g. "Bolstering an argument with the likes of Powerline bloggers isnt' exactly deep analysis of pre-invasion opinion" - and that if you wanted to sue for shame, you should talk about politicians, given that they're supposed to be accountable to the public.
I don't have any opinion as to the merits of that argument either way, but if you're going to write credibly about intellectual integrity, you have to play nice with your own commenters.
but if you're going to write credibly about intellectual integrity, you have to play nice with your own commenters.
ReplyDeleteNo he doesn't. Not when they, like you, are full of shit. Exposing the errors and hypocrisy of leading pundits is a public service, since it provides information an intelligent person may use in deciding how much weight, if any, to give to the views of people who make huge errors, won't admit it, and who yet call for others to do exactly that.
If you disagree, I invite you to ignore this post and to leave the discussion to those of us who find it illuminating.
Everybody should stop talking as if we're still fighting the Iraq War. We WON the Iraq war when we defeated Saddam. And the Right Wing Pundits correctly pointed out that the Iraq War was over.
ReplyDeleteSo why have the Bush administration and the wingnuts labelled the occupation of Iraq and the propping up of its new government as the continuation of the "Iraq War"? Because it is a lot easier to tar critics of our policy in Iraq if you can call them "anti-war" and "anti-troops."
I call bullshit, and so should you. Stop referring to what we're doing in Iraq as the Iraq War.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"What errors? You have yet to post a single error of fact."
DO YOU MEAN THIS KAY, the weapons inspector?
"I don't think they existed," Kay said in an interview with the Reuters news agency.
Which part of my post that Kay and Duelfer both believed, without any physical or documentary evidence, that Saddam had destroyed his WND stockpiles did you not understand?
Pointing out your BS is too easy to occupy my time.
Actually, what wasn't worth your time was to note that Kay also admitted to the press that he could not rule out that Saddam moved his WMD to Syria with the WMD manufacturing equipment and WMD scientists identifed by Kay.
Also not worth your time to note was the recently translated 1995 tape recording Saddam's chief of WMD developments admitting that Iraq was lying about destroying its WMD and WMD programs.
Great Post Glenn
ReplyDeleteRead Hinderaker's post on Powerline and thought the same thing. I have spent my life arguing against chickenhawks on such matters such as this and, for longer, the Arab-Israeli conflict. I usually ask how long of a timeframe I need to prove them wrong. I ask them to give me a number of years it will take, after which we can assess whether unilateral military action has been successful. 10 years? 20?
As has been proven in Israel, uniltaeral military action did nothing to stop suicide bombing -- a giant fence separating the two peoples did. This after years and years of Israel bombing Gaza to destroy the terrorist "infrastructure."
Now Hinderaker has conveniently set the assessment period so far out as to prevent any meaningful debate about the success of the Bush undertaking. Forget the morality arguments of preemptive war. Just looking at whether it "worked," my kids will be able to get some idea when they're drafted to serve in one of our permanent bases in the region.
[eyes roll]
ReplyDeleteBetter yet, anonymous concern troll, if you are so concerned about Glenn wasting time on pundits when he could be excoriating politicians on their misguided stands on the Iraq war, why don't you take a few hours to do just that on your personal blog and post a link for all of us to read? It's a free country and I'm sure you could regale us with many tales of misguided chickenhawks serving themselves up on a platter. Even simpler, I'm so sure that someone else somewhere on the Internet has already done this, why don't you Google for just such a page and link that?
I'm not interested in the troll Bart, but as an example of the uselessness of arguing with him:
Glenn quotes Hinderaker caption: With the war in Iraq winding down, the daily photos in Army Times include scenes of joyful homecomings.
Bart responds: Are you claiming that these photos were doctored?
No, Bart, I think Glenn zeroed in on "with the war in Iraq winding down" (said less than a month after we invaded!). It is an example of the misguided triumphalism that has characterized the occupation of Iraq, its portrayal in America by Republican neocons, and the conduct of the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces as he's prosecuted this war of many justifications. It is an example of the happy-talk propaganda that has put Bush's credibility in the gutter. It is an example of the right-wing myth that we are making progress in Iraq. As such, it is quite apropos to Glenn's post.
It is not an accusation of photo-doctoring. And this is so profoundly dumb and obvious that it should lead us all to a unified opinion of Bart's comments on this blog: Bart doesn't care about what Glenn is saying and feels no need to actually understand or sympathize with his point of view. He is inclined toward shock and awe in argument form and does not care where the bombs fall. He just wants victory.
Bart's credibility has been in the gutter with me for a long time. This is the essence of Glenn's original argument on the pundit class, that people who have lost credibility do not deserve concerted attention. So ignore Bart's carefully reasoned, past-expiration-date yammerings; nothing to see here, move along.
I thought Glenn's post today was valuable precisely because I don't often waste my time reading right wing blogs. I do run into people often enough who voted for Bush or supported the invasion, though, and some of those folks read those blogs or parrot Bushista commentary, so it's useful to know what those blogs said.
ReplyDeleteGlenn writes about going back and reading Powerline’s Hindraker:
ReplyDeleteGoing back and reading it really creates the sensation of people who were living in a world that combines the worst elements of Disney World and Pravda. Our experts and pundits were literally describing a world that did not exist and making claims that could not have been any further removed from reality.
It’s actually even worse than that, Hinderaker now wants to make it criminal for any reporter not to live in his cult combination of Disney World/Pravda.
If a reporter knows information that contradicts the administration’s arguments for war, Hinderaker does not want that information published and if it is published, he wants that reporter convicted of a crime.
When asked on CNN :
If reporters were told prior to the war in Iraq that the National Intelligence Estimate that had been presented to the public as showing clearly that there was weapons of mass destruction was, in fact, rife with dissent from intelligence agencies, saying that we're not so sure about this nuclear program, we're not sure about these UAVs, that some of the key sources being used to justify the war, such as curveball, for instance, had never been questioned by the CIA or, in other cases, had flunked CIA polygraph tests, would he think that reporters who published information that was so central to one of the main arguments and justifications for the war shouldn't be published and should be criminally prosecuted?
HINDERAKER responded :“Yes, they should be criminally prosecuted.”
Is the cult going to control what’s written in our history books too?
Will it be a crime to tell what really happened in the lead up to the Iraq war twenty years from now?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteRight & opinions have never changed regarding a war 3 months, much less 3 years into it. What a bullsh!t argument & completely pointless assertion to make. Sure the realities have changed in Iraq & to say this is what supporters said 3 years ago & this is the realities now, accomplishes what exactly? That they were wrong, that we know more now, than we did then. That they are hypocritical for professing an opinion back then, when realities show that they may be different now? Well Glenn, we do know more now then we know then. Were there mistakes made, yep. I don’t shirk away from that. Every War has big time blunders & unexpected victories, that is part of the nature & reality of war. Where American’s views of the Japanese different prior to Pearl Harbor? Yes. How about 3 years later? How did American troops view the Germans during their 1st assault in North Africa vs. the full surrender if the German army & Russian occupation of Berlin? How about 3 years later? How was the public’s perception of Vietnam changed over 3 year periods since 1964? All you have managed to do is show that opinions regarding something as dynamic & unpredictable as a war change over time. Wow what a smoking gun!
The funny thing is that last night I celebrated St. Paddy’s Day w/ 2 marines from the India Company – the ones who cleared out Fallujuh. Their version & every version I have heard from every active duty person that has been over there has completely been different than what is reported back in the states. Sure they hate it & would prefer to not go back ever, but both have had 2 tours in Iraq & 1 Afghanistan. Both are willing to go back again however. My brother who is currently serving his 2nd tour there in the Air Force, granted he is not on the front lines, has flat out said that what is reported here is totally different from the facts on the ground. None have agreed w/ the plans or tactics used initially, but all are quick to point out that the plans prior to a war & the tactics used in the war are always different. Why should the current opinions offered on-line or by the media regarding it not change as well? Would you care to compare the reports opinions offered from the left about the violence or cost of cleaning out Fallujuh prior & during the work those Marines did & how it is today? How about the Kurdish territory in the North? Why don’t we cite the NYT, Washington Post, Kos or any prominent liberal in the media about the hard fought battles in Fallujuh, Tikrit, Hit, Al Karmah, Samarra, Ramadi & Mosul then & compare it to the realities now, much less 3 months from now? Care to guess what the differences will be & who will look foolish & ignorant? How about the prescribed & eventual violence that was to surround the last election held in Iraq? Does that make those the predicted it liars & hypocrites? How many of your viewers & commentors here predicted that the elections wouldn’t go through at all? Since the NYT has admitted that they falsely identified the hooded man in the Abu Ghraib photos, I guess we can now write them off as blind propagandists & ignore anything else they have to say? What does that say about their NSA wire-tapping reporting? Do I get to dismiss everything they print from now on as totally lies or pure propaganda?
To show opinions offered as false 3 years later & as some kind of proof that they were lying is disingenuous & actually places you into the same stranglehold. What if your opinions are shown to be false? By your own standards, you are nothing more than a liar or petty propagandist. It is a cheap & lazy argument to make regardless of how wrong they were or will be.
pmani: you miss the point, I think. The point is that the administration knew then, at the time of the invasion, that its reasons and intelligence were wrong. Many intelligence experts inside and outside the admin knew this, but their voices were drowned out by an admin who'd already decided back in the mid-90s that Iraq needed to be invaded. 911 was just a pretext which provided cover for a much larger agenda.
ReplyDeleteThis agenda includes: 1) expanding American hegemony in the region in support of oil companies, 2) providing a defensive cover for Israeli aggression, 3) giving the military contarators a guaranteed source of revenue, and 4) promoting at home an ethos of duty and patriotism to keep the increasingly materialistic and chaotic masses under control.
pmani,
ReplyDeleteTo be blunt, blow it out your ignorant ass.
Your experiences with US soldiers notwithstanding, those people who were spouting patent bullshit about WMD's / the imminent threat of Saddam / the links between Saddam and Al Queda were not operating in a vacuum and "just doing their level best" in presenting opinions that may or may have not been correct, such that we had to listen to them or else we would have no access to any information about Iraq.
And to imply that this is all 20-20 hindsight to chide them for being proved wrong, is to have your head so far up your ass as to wonder if you can see your breakfast.
I know this is an unpopular statement of fact among the right wing and the pundits, but many, many people knew this was bullshit over three years ago. For God's sake, *I* knew it. The NYT and WAPO were doing their level best to bury it on page 16, and their suck-up pundits were sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "Lalalalala I can't hear you", but the information was out there. The foreign press knew it, and people like Brent Scowcroft knew it.
This is all about who has credibility, as Glenn pointed out so succinctly and you seem so determined to ignore. The same people who said Iraq was a great idea are still out there, they still haven't admitted they were wrong, and were supposed to not criticize them for that?
If it were up to me, no one would give these morons the time of day, let alone expect rational opinions from them on what this country should do. And if pointing out--loudly and repetitively--how wrong they were and are might help in the slightest in ruining their credibility, I'm 1000% in favor of it.
bart can't see the difference between possibilities and probabilities. Most apologists can't.
ReplyDeletepmani can't see the difference between Operation Overlord and Operation Market Garden. Its all just a game of chance to him.
The translations of just the first of what looks to be hundreds of thousands of captured Iraqi documents and tapes are putting the lie to anti-war claims that Iraq never possessed WMD and had no relationship with al Qeada.
ReplyDeleteYoo hoo, Bart. Please don't feel you have to waste your time here. It's inhumane for them to have you working week-ends, and it looks like you've got some heavy lifting to do in the days ahead.
Coming up with hundreds of thousands of authentic looking "documents" is no slap job like the Niger forgery.
And BTW, I give you credit. You're "higher up" than I thought. The bulk of what you just posted was sent to me two days ago by a friend of mine who is quite high up in the Republican Party structure.
It won't be long now before it appears on newsmax's mailing list.
And wasn't Condi Rice's recent speech about how "History will be the judge about Iraq" just a tad bit similar to all this "20 to 30 years---let's take a long view" stuff that started coming out right about the same time Condi was giving her speech?
When's Bush's next press conference, or did he cover that yet?
I must say the "head" writer does have a sense of humor. Must have been at SNL before the White House snatched him away.
Now, back to work, Bart. Busy hands are happy hands! Stay focused.
Love and kisses,
EWO
those people who were spouting patent bullshit about WMD's / the imminent threat of Saddam / the links between Saddam and Al Queda were not operating in a vacuum and "just doing their level best" in presenting opinions
ReplyDeleteJust one more example that has come out in the newly released documents that undercuts what the Bush administration was saying.
Remember how they made a big deal of Zarqawi being in Iraq, and used it as a not only a link to terrorists for Saddam, but a pretext for invasion?
Well, the new documents do show that Zarqawi was indeed in Iraq. One little problem, though, these documents now show that Saddam was trying to have him arrested as a danger to his regime.
Cheney promised details of the “relationship” between Saddam and Al Qaeda, what he didn’t say was that the relationship was hostile.
Once again, their credibility is in tatters. The small kernel of truth in so many of statements turns out to totally discredit their larger statement.
And on and on……
Bart...
ReplyDeleteCould you provide a link to the information regarding the newly translated Iraqi documents? I'm trying to figure out why, if these documents can help bolster some of the Administrations pre-war claims, they aren't being trumpeted.
To everyone else here....
Why has no one commented on this? I see a lot of trash talk going on, but not one poster, not even Glenn has addressed Bart's point. Has it been debunked?
I've been reading Glenn's posts and subsequent comments for the last few month and there are numerous times when Bart's points, laid down in what I would consider a civil matter, are not addressed. That is not to say that I agree with him on all his posts, but calling something bullshit doesn't necessarily make it so.
To those GOP operatives attempting to disseminate confusion and disinformation: see Juan Cole's comments about that treasure trove of Iraqi docs. (ie, "Right Blogosphere Scammed by Bogus Document Dump") recently released by the admin. (is anyone investigating how these dos happen to be released now and by whom?). It's quite funny how the admin and its minions will attempt to spin gold from straw--talk about trolls!
ReplyDeleteHey! I was reading the letters to the editor in today's NY Times about their preposterous story about Feingold's motion to censure and thinking how smart the first letter writer was and then I got to the end and saw it was from Russ Feingold himself! Did anyone read that?
ReplyDeleteSum up: The President broke the law, and must be held accountable.
This guy really knows how to stay on message, which is why he's so effective.
It was followed up by two other superb letters. In essence: who stands for crime, and who stands for the Constitution and the Rule of Law?
Hmmmmm. That seems to be a toughie for those in Washington, both parties....Maybe if they'd throw in a multiple choice third option it would make answering easier?
3. Who stands for crime and the Constitution?
One writer concludes that the important thing is not to investigate the President. It's to stop him. Now. Amen.
CL
ReplyDeleteThanks for the tip on the document dump. There were links there to even better rebuttals at the Daily Kos and AmericaBlog.
So that's why it never made the daily news. Funny that a guy like Bart would use something like that to bolster an argument when it could be so easily debunked.
I gotta keep going with my instincts on this.
”If you quote Howard Dean as being correct, then how about comparing politicians to politicians?”
ReplyDelete”"Bolstering an argument with the likes of Powerline bloggers isnt'(sic) exactly deep analysis of pre-invasion opinion" - and that if you wanted to sue for shame, you should talk about politicians, given that they're supposed to be accountable to the public.”
The post is titled ”The Death of Shame in our Pundit Class” and Glenn quotes Charles Krauthammer. I’ll forgive you for not knowing this because it is pretty f*cking unbelieveable but pundits Charles Krauthammer and William Kristol had as much to do with Iraq policy as anytone in government. Perhaps more. Certainly more than Howard Dean. Look up “Project for the New American Century”.
Almost as crazy as having Grover Norquist write the nation’s tax policy.
This is about who should be determining the policy directions of the United States. Don’t fool yourself that the pundits don’t have as much power as the politicians. It’s important that pat attention to who deserves to be listened to carefully and who doesn’t.
"It's important that we pay attention..."
ReplyDeleteThe Cynic librarian,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I accidentally mistyped my handle, it is really PMain, so I apologize to you & anyone else for allowing that to go through.
I’m not so sure that the Administration knew that the information regarding WMDs was in-correct. Saddam’s own generals, as we now know & according to the NYT, didn’t know until months before the invasion. These are the people who were in control & in charge of the military & the defense of Iraqi soil. If they were convinced they not only existed, but depended upon them for defense how can we expect the Bush Administration, the English, the French, the Egyptians, the Russians, the Israelis & most of the world to so sure?
While I agree that there were people who may have believed there to be no WMDs, how many more didn’t. Combined w/ other foreign intelligence agencies, Saddam’s history of using them & his blocking of UN weapons inspectors, it comes across as 20/20 hindsight & nothing more.
Oh, and it's also about revisionist history. If we don't pay close enough attention to who is to be believed, nutjobs like Hinderaker and Krauthammer will succeed in convincing many people (if not themselves) some crap excuse, e.g., "the media lost the war." Otherwise, they'd have to accept complete responsibility for the tragedy they helped to inflict – along with congressional Republicans – upon this country and the world.
ReplyDeletepmain: Consider the remarks and comments made by Melvin Goodman, professor of international security at the National War College, senior fellow at the Center for International Policy and former CIA analyst.
ReplyDeleteEarly on, he stated that intelligence on Iraq going back to 1991 was suspect. He stated that the obfuscation and “outright lying” by President Bush’s administration in its presentation of the facts on Iraq is an impeachable offense (listen to the interview of Goodman on Minnesota Public Radio’s MidMorning). Goodman was speaking for many both inside and outisde the admin. Also consider Col. Wilkerson's comments, little reported in the US, about how much Rumsfeld and Cheney knew their info was lies.
Wow, Powerline really knows how to make sense - remember in 1975 when we finally all could know whether WWII was a good thing? Won't it be great in 2014 when the whole Vietnam thing will become clear?
ReplyDeleteI think that it is a good sign when the Powerline types pull out the 20-30 years to assess the Iraq war because only the most avid kool-aid drinker would buy it. I think that the average person on the street knows this for the BS that it is on sight. When the antidote to the argument is so obvious - it fails even the most basic common sense test. We should all definitely be talking about this, and when your Limbaugh listening brother-in-law tries this one just laugh. You won't have to call him an idiot just to make him feel like one.
When the chickenhawks have to fight for the hearts and minds of their supporters, it is a very good sign.
Keep up the great work Glenn...
"Is the cult going to control what’s written in our history books too?
ReplyDeleteWill it be a crime to tell what really happened in the lead up to the Iraq war twenty years from now?"
I don't know about it becoming a crime, but how many people actually know the facts about past invasions, such as Vietnam or Nicaragua? I find it extremely common that even the most vehement Bush-haters and Iraq war critics know nothing of our past in those countries. I myself admit that I knew nothing of the bullshit surrounding Vietnam until I hunted down the info myself in high school, and the same goes for Nixon's impeachment. How many average people actually know what that was about?
Off topic, but am I the only one who is irked when the govt's malicious misconduct is described as an error or a failure. That is letting them off the hook. For example, the invasion of Iraq was by no means a failure, same with the invasion of Vietnam. Everyone knows they didn't go to those countries for noble causes, so why is it considered a failure when their "nobility" blows up in their faces? As if they would spend hundreds of billions of dollars on something like this if they didn't already know they would be assured of the outcome they want.
It blows my mind that anyone whose eyes are open to what is happening in this country could miss the importance of what Glenn is getting at. These guys are so very integral to the war machine, as they play the role of enablers of violence and pacifiers of thought. Helping set the framework for almost an entire nation's way of viewing issues is a big deal, at least to me.
ReplyDeleteFor it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false.
-- H. L. Mencken
or:
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt.
-- H. L. Mencken
Weighing in on the neocons, and pointing out the inevitable consequence of these delusional monsters' machinations: the Draft. Here's Paul Craig Roberts.
ReplyDelete(I personally think we will have a draft in this country within ten years. Nobody will be volunteering when payback time starts for all the torture and inhumanity our government has ordered and supported against huge numbers of unfortunates most of whom are innocents. Read more about this torture and abuse in tomorrow's NY Times in their story about The Black Room and Task Force 26-6.)
Here's Paul Craig Roberts:
If you think about it, you will realize that the neocons' war plans are taking us back to the draft. There's no way around it. Lacking sufficient military forces to occupy Iraq with its small population of 25 million, what would we do once neocons get us mired down in Iran or Egypt, with their large populations?
Somebody needs to call a halt to this. It will not be the neocon press or Fox News that does it. These folks hide behind superpatriotism, but their real motive is to make the Middle East safe for Israel. The alliance of neocons with white Southern evangelicals is not enough to control U.S. foreign policy. Sooner or later, even the brain-dead are going to realize that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, was not a threat to us (until neocons got us mired down there) and had nothing to do with the events of September 11.
We spent a fortune attacking a country that had done us no harm, killing tens of thousands of its people and giving the United States a black eye as an aggressor that starts wars on the basis of lies and disinformation. In the process, we also wrecked the political standing of our best ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Two-thirds of the British people now believe that Mr. Blair intentionally made a false case for invading Iraq.
When the public tires of flag waving and war propaganda, how will the Bush administration carry on with its pretense that we have made the world safe from terrorists by overthrowing Saddam Hussein? Voters will begin to wonder why Mr. Bush doesn't sack the neocons who have brought him such deep embarrassment. The longer Mr. Bush waits before sacking the neocons, the more voters will wonder why they voted for him.
Our situation in Iraq is already bad. It will become untenable if the Shi'ite majority decides to join in the effort to drive us out. It doesn't appear we will be able to buy off our adversaries with our money. Will we as a proud nation respond to Iraqi resistance by conscripting our sons and grandsons as targets for terrorists and guerillas?
While we are bogged down, what happens if something hits the fan in another part of the world? Will we be forced to resort to nuclear weapons?
Many people much smarter than neocons gave these warnings in response to the neocons' promise of a cakewalk. It is time Mr. Bush replaced his delusional neocon advisers with wise people of integrity.
I don't know when this article was written, but I think it was a while ago, but as usual, he's prescient.
A commenter on Glenn's blog over at Huffington Post quoted Tony Blair as saying "Power without principle is barren; but principle without power is futile."
ReplyDeleteI couldn't disagree more. Those who truly have integrity could not live without it. It's the oxygen which infuses their souls. Apparently, those who have none fail to understand that.
Cynic librarian: You do the best research. Unfortunately some of those articles you linked to in the last few days have me really angry, and I promised myself I would not get so upset about everything. But it's hard not to.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this "document" thing our little Bart brings up is really a hoot. LOL to the max. But the funniest thing of all is its release points out how very naked Bushco and Karlie boy really are, and how desperate they've become in trying to come up with something, anything, to enliven their wingbat base. But as their desperation grows, they expose themselves more and more as the fools that they are. Apparently they have not caught on yet that the public finally has their number, and their pathetic little three card monty game is not playing well in Peoria any more.
Turns out Bush really wasn't all that macho after all, was he Bart?
Hee Haw.
Here's Juan Cole on the matter:
The notorious liar, Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard led the charge. This is just an old Western document posted to the internet in 1997.
What does the Arabic say?
"The Institutions of the Apparatus of the Intelligence Service on the Internet:
You will find enclosed information on the Apparatus that has been published on the internet. It has information on our organization, but it is clear that the information is relatively old. Otherwise, it does not do more than mention some correct and important matters . . ."
It then goes on to list the names of some agents. As an intelligence service, its main concern was with cover, apparently.
In other words, Iraqi intelligence notes the appearance of the document on the internet in 1997, and laments that it is very basic ['does not do more than'] and then notes with some amusement how out of date it is (with the implication that Western intelligence on Iraq must be pretty bad). The "out of date" comment probably refers to the Western document's preoccupation with WMD, which Iraqi Intelligence would have known was gone by then. It may also refer to personnel having been switched around. Note that the Iraqi comment does not endorse the internet document. It not only says it is "old" intelligence, which is very damning in intelligence work, but it also uses the word "some" when referring to what is accurate and important in it. "Some correct and important matters." There will be those who read this as a blanket endorsement; it obviously is not.
Yeah, that's a find, all right. Kind of makes the whole last three years worthwhile, all by itself.
captcartoon said...
ReplyDeleteBart... Could you provide a link to the information regarding the newly translated Iraqi documents? I'm trying to figure out why, if these documents can help bolster some of the Administrations pre-war claims, they aren't being trumpeted.
the cynic librarian said...
To those GOP operatives attempting to disseminate confusion and disinformation: see Juan Cole's comments about that treasure trove of Iraqi docs. (ie, "Right Blogosphere Scammed by Bogus Document Dump") recently released by the admin. (is anyone investigating how these dos happen to be released now and by whom?). It's quite funny how the admin and its minions will attempt to spin gold from straw--talk about trolls!
I would be glad to get you caught up on what we know so far from the released tapes and documents.
I will do this in a series of posts tomorrow. However, tonight let's start with the document referred to in the Juan Cole link so we can discard that Saddam apologist right off the bat...
In 1997, the Federation of American Scientists posted an english language outline on the internet describing the functions of the directorates of the Mukhabarat, which was Iraq's intelligence agency.
What is interesting about this outline is that it describes how the Mukhabarat was involved in international terrorism and "weapons, poisons, and explosives."
In Iraq, the Coalition captured a copy of this outline attached to some handwritten arabic notes.
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents-docex/Iraq/CMPC-2003-006430.pdf
Juan Cole provides the following translation of the arabic notes:
"The Institutions of the Apparatus of the Intelligence Service on the Internet:
You will find enclosed information on the Apparatus that has been published on the internet. It has information on our organization, but it is clear that the information is relatively old. Otherwise, it does not do more than mention some correct and important matters . . ."
It then goes on to list the names of some agents. As an intelligence service, its main concern was with cover, apparently.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/03/right-blogosphere-scammed-by-bogus.html
In a nutshell, Cole confirms that the arabic notes were written by Iraqi intelligence and those notes sure sound like they are confirming the accuracy of the FAS outline of the duties their directorates.
However, you can always count on Juan Cole to spin anything to defend Saddam Hussein.
Cole claims that the FAS outlined can not be accurate because the Iraqis considered it to be "relatively old." Why, you might ask, is the FAS outline inaccurate because it dates all the way back to 1997. Cole informs us that the Iraqis were obviously implying "that Western intelligence on Iraq must be pretty bad." How he comes to this conclusion, Cole never bothers to tell us.
Also, Cole warns us not to take the Iraqi's evaluation of the FAS outline as "mention[ing] some correct and important matters" as a "blanket endorsement" of the outline. Why not? Because Cole tells us not to.
I will rely upon the plain meaning of the FAS outline and the arabic translation.
“So they should shut up, and people shouldn't listen to them in the future, because they were so very wrong?
ReplyDeleteOk.
Was that your entire point in this post?
I can see why you might want to say that, and that it's a totally defensible point, but I think I'm missing the reason that you think it's an important or interesting thing to occupy your time saying.”
Yeah, apparently Greenwald is so detached he still places a value on things like honesty and integrity. Just yet another reason why liberals (assuming he is one) are such chronic losers, I guess.
Seriously though, it does actually bear pointing out, and frequently, what craven liars and shameless propagandists these people are. Because some people in this country do still labor under the notion these people are serious journalists, intellectuals, political analysts, policy makers, and the other bullshit titles they [are allowed to] go by.
One hopes, some day, more serious voices like Glenn's will get the sort of coverage these people do and be very forthcoming in showing what frauds and liars they are. If the media did its job, it would already be doing this. Political hacks are nothing new nor are partisan newspapers (or blogs today) but the credence given to them by people in prominent positions, who ought to know better and have higher standards, is the shocking and disgusting part.
As an aside if one must wade in mud with these jokers--and there is no debating the right these days without--it’s a good idea to keep their tactics in mind and offer them back some of their own filth. Reynolds and the gang deserve to be roundly shouted down and told to hang their heads in shame for being disastrously wrong--after all, they have already set the stage for that being the proper punishment. Against bullies and cretins, being a bully yourself is often the best recourse.
These people may be absurd but they aren't irrelevant. Pretending that they are--or worse that addressing them seriously is beneath us--is to grant them a reprieve from responsibility ontop of their already fraudulently assumed authority.
I appreciate that there is a vast host of putrid ghosts flirting and snarling in the hell realm you seek to describe, each vying for your attention. Yet surely the bankruptcy of Andrew Sullivan is unique in its bitterness and bears repeated telling. His maudlin (what happened made him cry, you see) moral indiginity allowed him to compare post 9/11 foot draggers with the enablers who sat silently as Hitler filled the camps. There he was, bigger than life, ridiculing, yes ridiculing, Sontag for the words she was invited to publish in the New Yorker to console a grieving Manhattan, which, as an honest place, eludes his understanding, much as it does his President.
ReplyDeleteThe last poster in this thread was on drugs and/or was a paranoid schizophrenic.
ReplyDeleteanon 2:04
ReplyDeletere:"Was that your entire point in this post?"
Here's what I already have said about this:
“I was asking a genuine question: is it important or even interesting to point out that these people were and are wrong, given that they were obviously wrong at the time, who continue to be obviously wrong now, and who are thus obviously not even speaking out a concern for truth?
To do so confuses motivation with reason - e.g. it doesn't matter whether they are wrong or right since they are speaking because they are paid ideologues. The reasons they give are beside the point, which is why they give them up so easily.
It doesn't strike me as an interesting thing for intelligent people to occupy their time with failing to understand something so thoroughly that they criticize the one thing that's obviously superfluous.
That's why I was asking Glenn whether he had anything more interesting to say."
I guess I just see a weakness in making the argument: they were simply factually wrong, therefore they aren't credible, therefore they should be ignored.
It's weak because it assumes that their credibility is a result of getting things right, which it's not - these people are credible as ideologues, and so long as they stay on message they will be "credible" to the audience that matters.
Further, Glenn knows it's a weakness, since he is pointing out their having been wrong as a means of showing that they are part of a propaganda machine. i don't think it's necessary to pretend innocence – to pretend that credibility is related to getting it factually right - only to be able to turn around and play the cynic – to point out that they are still employed because they’re part of a propaganda machine. Why not just skip all the play acting and talk about how the propaganda machine functions and what can be done. For example, I know very little about media regulations in this country, how about you?
BTW, I've gotten nothing but ad hominem BS about this objection. It's a bit sad, really, when you have so many people in such close agreement that they can't find the space to think. I agree with Glenn’s aims here, as elsewhere, but I find this argumentative tack unconvincing for very specific reasons. Please deal with the LOGIC of the argument or chose to ignore it, but don’t bother to attack me, or my motives, or my intellectual integrity. Trolling comes in a lot of flavors, one of which is shouting down dissent.
before the war started, i was nearly came to fisticuffs with a fellow soldier over the iraq issues. i'd watched Collin Powell address the nation - and it all seemed like so much BS. my street senses told me he was lying. in a world of satellite photage and pilotless drone bombings - he went before the world and made a case for war with blotchy grey photos of something and fabricated mock-up displays akin one of my students' science projects. i can take a photo of my car in my own front yard for free on the internet, but he presented imitations and blurred photos on draft boards. he said i know this is hard to be read, but people smarter than i am tell me that this is... Powell had to have known his information was make-believe. je knew it was a lie. i think the administration floated a check on the war, counting on finding weapons to justify their claim.
ReplyDeletethe soldier - a special forces soldier who went on to spend 36 months in irak - has been home many times. when i see him about, i ask him how his weapons hunt went. this time around, he doesnt promise to break my neck or crush my windpipe. after watching his closest friends die horrible, sizzling deaths - he's humbled. but he'll never admit he was wrong. no, never that. he may have eventually been proven wrong - but his thought processes were right at the time. which, i think, is a snapshot of current mindsets.
pete said...
ReplyDelete"There seems to be some misunderstanding in the United States about the words 'power' and 'strength'.
And it seems to finally be playing out now.
The United States may be a very powerful nation in that it has all sorts of weapons, conventional and nuclear, that can blow up or destroy other nations. But as we see now these weapons are not enough - we don't have enough weapons and resources to eliminate the problem."
Actually it played out first in Viet Nam. We learned there that military might provided no guarantee of victory. Unfortunately, those that chose to, and were able to avoid that experience, are now in charge. And it is they that never bothered to learn it.
The saying "those that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" seems appropriate here.
Hypatia said...
ReplyDelete"For myself, and as one who did come to support the invasion of Iraq after a dithering period of ambivalence beforehand, I found it extremely difficult to know whom to believe. There were those on the anti-war left (and right) who had opposed removing the Taliban, and who predicted Vietnam-style quagmire. Along comes Iraq, and it was hard for me to determine whether the naysaying wasn't more of that reflexive opposition to any U.S. military action. (And I'm no expert on military matters, so I was looking for those who were, who I trusted.)"
The lesson from Viet Nam was unfortunately incorrectly learned by many resulting in the reflexive opposition you spoke of, and completely ignored by others which resulted in the invasion of Iraq.
The correct lesson that should have been learned from Viet Nam is that military power has limits, and that military power alone never guarantees victory. When used in a limited manner with clearly defined objectives and goals it can be an effective tool, but when used indiscriminately without clearly defined objectives and goals it is doomed to provide only defeat and humiliation.
Taking that lesson to heart, hard won from three tours in Viet Nam I never supported invading Iraq. I did support going into Afghanistan with the limited goal of capturing or killing Osama Bin Laden, followed by our immediate withdrawal from that country. I would have in fact supported going into Pakistan if it was required to achieve that same limited goal.
"BTW, I've gotten nothing but ad hominem BS about this objection."
ReplyDeleteTwo reasons for this I suspect.
1) The cult of personality that surrounds blogs does tend to enforce a belief that the blogger can never make a bad argument/judgement
2) Your original post was (or at least seemed to read as) a bit rude. IE "Yawn, who cares?" You didn't make the meat of your argument clear(er) until later posts.
And, while I can see what you're saying, I don't know as if I can agree. While it's true that pundits aren't paid to tell facts but to spread party line, they aren't represented that way.
They represent themselves as experts and the media allows them to. When CNN references Reynolds or similar hacks, they don't say "And here's what's being said by Republican spokesman _____ "
Instead, they let him propagate the fiction he's some sort of impartial "libertarian" observer.
Given that, I don't doubt there are viewers/readers who actually believe these people are what they represent themselves to be. It would be understandable if they did.
It seems to me then that the most obvious way to combat them is to expose their myths as frequently as possible. To call them, in public, the fools, liars, and paid mouthpieces they are. To ruin their credibilty with the public as much as possible, if not their employers. This is even more important given that the media has decided to neglect that duty, allowing propagandists to come on their shows and blatantly lie while passing themselves off as experts or impartial observers.
They need to be called on their lies because people need to know these are lies. Not "expert opinons/anaylsis".
As for dealing with the propaganda machine rather then the propagandists, as I think you're saying--how exactly? There will always be propagandists; it's as old as government. There's money in serving power and always will be.
I think it's far more useful, and realistic, to first dispell the fake aura of authority that surrounds many of these pundits. To confront them directly with their lies and contradictions, and make it harder for them to be taken seriously.
It has happened before and it does work to some degree. Bill O'Reilly has been confronted and exposed as a fool numerous times over the years. This may not have killed his show, but his credibility as anything but a rightwing propagandist is pretty low. The same could be said for Michael Moore, who the right has roundly smeared while also attacking him frequently for his factual errors. Nobody takes either of these two guys very seriously these days. Some people, I fear, still take Reynolds quite seriously.
So I don't think ignoring them in favor of fighting "the machine" would do much good. It's my opinion the best way to stop a machine, or at least slow it down, is to gum up the individual works.
Strangefate (same poster as 2:04. As an aside, I was mostly just making light fun in the first few lines although your original post did come off as fairly cynical, sort a "why bother to call a paid liar, a liar?" So other people are made aware he/she is a liar)
bart said...
ReplyDeletecaptcartoon said...
Bart... Could you provide a link to the information regarding the newly translated Iraqi documents? I'm trying to figure out why, if these documents can help bolster some of the Administrations pre-war claims, they aren't being trumpeted.
OK, we have already covered the FAS memo. Let's take a look at some of the other recently released documents...
As you may recall, the Fedayeen were one of Saddam's most trusted Sunni militias. They first received public notice when they attempted hit and run attacks on the Colaltion forces during the initial invasion. Later, it appears that they formed the backbone of the Iraqi Sunni "insurgency."
Among the captured Iraqi documents were several handwritten memos drafted by the Fedayeen with attached photographs of Zarqawi and other al Qaeda members.
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents-docex/Iraq/ISGZ-2004-019920.pdf
The Pentagon released this document with a translation summary, which states:
In the name of God the most Merciful, the most Compassionate
Republic of Iraq
The Presidency
Fedayeen Saddam
Security Board
SECRET AND PERSONAL (TC: foreign classification)
Number: 1/22/11836
Date: 12/1/2001
To: Iraqi Intelligence Service
Re: Rumor
Greetings.
1. In the report on the status of rumors for November of 2001 regarding Fedayeen Saddam in al-Anbar, there is an entry that indicates that there is a group of Iraqi and Saudi Arabians numbering around 3,000 who have gone in an unofficial capacity to Afghanistan and have joined the mujahidin to fight with and aid them in defeating the American Zionist Imperialist attack.
2. After presenting the matter to the Supervisor of Fedayeen Saddam, he ordered that the matter should be looked into for verification of the truth of the rumor.
Please review and inform us.
Regards,
(Signature)
Secretary General of Fedayeen Saddam
12/5/2001
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents-docex/Iraq/ISGQ-2003-00004500-0.pdf
The Washington Post published a short article on the these documents with this note:
The Pentagon Web site described that document this way: "2002 Iraqi Intelligence Correspondence concerning the presence of al-Qaida Members in Iraq. Correspondence between IRS members on a suspicion, later confirmed, of the presence of an Al-Qaeda terrorist group. Moreover, it includes photos and names."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/15/AR2006031502742.html
This document indicates that Zarqawi and al Qaeda was well established in Iraq in 2001. The al Qaeda Saudis were busy recruiting Iraqis to join them in attacking US troops in Afghanistan.
Before this document, we knew that an al Qaeda terror group named al Insar Islam had a base above the Kurdish no fly zone and along the Iranian border.
Although this group was nominally in Kurdistan, they are in fact warring with the Kurds for years.
During the initial days of the liberation of Iraq, the SF and the Kurdish Peshmerga fought roughly 1500 al Qaeda in and around this camp. When they overran the camp, the surviving al Qaeda drove away toward the Sunni Triangle. At the camp, the SF found al Qaeda identity and travel documents indicating that many at the camp had fought in Afghanistan and then retreated to Iraq as a sanctuary. This camp also had a rudimentary chemical weapon lab with arabic WMD manuals, chemical protection suits and atropine never gas antidote. Two of the captured al Qaeda identified by name the Iraqi intelligence (Mukhabarat?) who was in contact with the camp.
You can get a good description of Operation Viking Hammer in the book Masters of Chaos: The Secret History of the Special Forces
by Linda Robinson.
It has been a subject of intense debate as to whether al Qaeda had cells in other parts of Iraq controlled by Saddam before the war.
The Saddam apologists argue that the al Insar Islam camp along the Iranian border was nominally out of Saddam's control and, therefore, is not evidence that Saddam was coordinating with an providing shelter with al Qaeda.
However, these new documents indicate that al Qaeda was recruiting several hundred Iraqis to go to Afghanistan during 2001. These Iraqis would not have been Kurds or Shia because al Qeada was at war with both. That means that Zarqawi was recruiting in the Sunni Triangle, the heart of Saddam's power base, to raise forces to war against the United States.
bart....
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to let you know that I've read your posts on the Iraqi documents and thank you for your analysis (the thread seems to be "so yesterday" now and everyone is off to seek fresh meat). Most interesting.
Two thoughts:
First, I'm still puzzled by why the document "dump" was not released to the general media and was instead, "pipelined" to right wing blogs. You mentioned the blurb in the WaPo, but, outside of that, this seems to be a non-news item to the rest of the MSM.
Second, regarding the camp at the Inslar Islam base, I'm wondering why a surgical strike wasn't ordered long before. No doubt, recon sorties where most likely ordered on a daily basis in that area (I worked for G2 when I was stationed in the Airborne in the '70's) and, if it was considered a threat, it seems to me an argument to take them out could have been persuasively made, especially in light of the world's view of terrorist in general after 9/11. I think that particular argument could have been defended a whole lot easier that a full blown invasion.
A final note. For the most part, I lean to the left. I am against the war in Iraq and I really had too many questions left unanswered regarding why we should have invaded in the first place. But, I am willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, hence, my questions to you. I'm grateful to Glenn for his reasoned approach to rebuttals which allows the kind of productive exchange that we truly need nowdays.
captcartoon said...
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'm still puzzled by why the document "dump" was not released to the general media and was instead, "pipelined" to right wing blogs. You mentioned the blurb in the WaPo, but, outside of that, this seems to be a non-news item to the rest of the MSM.
The first load of documents were downloaded to the public on a DOD website at the demand of several congressional representatives. Nothing was "pipelined" to the conservative blogs.
You will have to ask the major media outlets (with the exception of ABC and the WP) why they have been studiously ignoring these documents. Apart from ABC, they also ignored the tapes of Saddam's staff meetings where they were discussing ongoing WMD programs and hiding WMD from the UN.
I have no idea what these documents will reveal. Some have indicated that Saddam lied about possessing WMD which he never really had. Other documents indicate that he was hiding the WMD.
The Baathist dictatorship was the most paranoid and compartmentalized police state since Stalin's USSR. The right hand literally did not know what the left hand was doing. What makes this more confusing was the level of disinformation within Saddam's own military.
However, the Iraqis were excellent record keepers. These documents could shed a great deal of light on a historical record which has become a far too politicized.
Second, regarding the camp at the Inslar Islam base, I'm wondering why a surgical strike wasn't ordered long before.
This is easy.
Despite what you see on television, air strikes are rarely effective at taking out an enemy unit. When Mr. Clinton launched air strikes against al Qaeda in Afghanistan, the enemy simply moved to other locations and sometimes we would lose them.
To kill or capture a ground unit, you usually need another ground unit to engage and fix the enemy. Then you can accurately direct air power.
Tora Bora is a good example of this principle. We bombed the hell out of this enemy complex, but could not engage and fix bin Laden's group. bin Laden and many of his fighters melted away.
We attempted to fix and defeat the enemy at the al Insar camp with a mixed group of SF and Kurdish Peshmerga. Reportedly, we killed or catpured most of the enemy, but some managed to escape the Sunni Triangle. Obviously, they thought they would be able to find sanctuary there.
If you are finding it difficult understanding how the Apologist Class of bloggers think, or tolerate such levels of congnative dissonance, consider their nature.
ReplyDeleteGraphictruth: Politics, Bullies and Kurt Cobain
They are bullies.
Consider the violence of their language toward those who dare disagree with them - and their relative inablity to gin up a rationale for wanting things to come out as they do, even from a true conservative perspective.
I've just written a long piece on this and while it brings nothing new to the table in the realm of fact, I think it may explain a lot of what is happening better than most excercises in pundity these days.
But it's an aside; an explaination of why things are the way they are in defiance of all common sense.
Bullies thrive on conflict. They have no reasons and need none, beyond that. They are generally incapable of reasoniing beyond superficials and avoid any context where that might be required of them.
Consider how quickly they are to yell "traitor" at anyone who disagrees - just like your average jock is quick to call anyone weaker and less inclined to "horseplay" a "faggot."
Many, if not most of the people Glenn cites are simply verbal bullies and the thing to remember is that to them, facts, reason and evidence are irrelevant to them, save as weapons. It doesn't matter what they said yesterday, nor does it matter that they will say something entirely different tomorrow. Their entire goal is to "whip up thier base" - that is to say, the people standing behind them to help intimidate their chosen victim - and stir up some more conflict.
If you ever need reminding of this, drop over to Little Green Footballs, or Free Republic, or Powerline. The only thing less persuasive than their rants about "lib'rals" is the sort of reasoning they use to shore up each other's morale in the face of reality inexplicably failing to conform with their expectations.
In response to this...
ReplyDeleteRather it was the American ability on the ground and air in a matter of hours to decapitate the command-and-control apparatus of the Baathist regime that alone allowed bridges, oil wells, power plants, and harbors to be saved, and chemical weapons not to be used.
Powerline, April 26, 2003
Bart said...
This post refers to the decisive Coalition defeat of the Iraq Army and gives a good summary of the major factors in that victory.
That's a nice story, but the authors of the recently-released Cobra II make clear that Saddam never intended to blow his bridges, oil wells, power plants, and so on.
Blowing bridges caused major problems after the first Gulf War, as it prevented his forces from moving about the country to quell anti-Saddam uprisings. In fact, when in desperation he finally did order one bridge destroyed, the Iraqi army botched the job.
The oil fields he blew in the first Gulf War weren't his, they were the Kuwaitis. Saddam didn't intend to lose the Iraq War, and thus didn't intend to destroy his own oil capabilities.
And I'm not even going to bother with the chemical weapons comment.
At the camp, the SF found al Qaeda identity and travel documents indicating that many at the camp had fought in Afghanistan and then retreated to Iraq as a sanctuary.
ReplyDeleteal Qaeda identity and travel documents? So al Qaeda terrorists carry I.D. and passports? It is also very nice of them to get them stamped properly to leave a nice paper trail showing where they have been. I do have to wonder who issues al Qaeda I.D., the alQaeda D.M.V. perhaps.
"If there were any intellectual honesty in our political dialogue, people like Hinderaker and Peters and Hanson would be disgraced into silence.
ReplyDeleteThere's still time. Get busy, people!
I don't know how a smart guy like you, Glenn (and I mean that without snark), can write a sentence like this:
ReplyDelete"It is truly difficult to understand how these same people can continue to pompously opine on these matters, and still claim an entitlement to be listened to, without at least confessing their errors."
Difficult, Glenn? These are delusional nutjobs? And apologies? Do you know what they're doing at this very moment? Poring over that recent DOD doc dump looking for misplaced semi-colons and dangling modifiers that prove Saddam had WMD, that he colluded with Osama, and that George Bush is Jesus. And guess what? They're going to find what they're looking for and flood the media with it and you and I and every other sane person in America is going to be busy cutting through their delusions two weeks before the November election.
The current rationalization for the Iraq war and occupation:
ReplyDeleteGiven the long-term currently claimed by the war's supporters it appears that there was no reason to rush into things. Without the the urgency it becomes criminal that the troops were sent in without adequate protective gear and other supplies. Take away the need for haste and it becomes self-destructive to drag the reserves and national guard out of their civilian lives for deployment in Iraq; they signed on to be of service in a crisis and if they are used casually then maybe when they are really needed (e.g., Katrina) they won't be around.
The real reason for urgency was to strike at Iraq while the iron was hot after 9/11 and the populace could be easily bamboozled in the fog of politics. Let's hope we're the folks that can only be fooled some of the time rather than all the time!