Sunday, March 26, 2006

DoJ's Responses to Congress: The NSA Scandal in Microcosm

By Anonymous Liberal

As Glenn highlighted yesterday, the Bush administration has released written responses to questions about the NSA program submitted to the administration by the Republicans and Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee. If you haven't already read through these documents, I highly recommend it. Both the questions themselves and the administration's responses to them perfectly encapsulate everything that is so disturbing and frustrating about this scandal.

The questions submitted by the Democrats are very simple, straight-forward legal and factual questions, usually no more than one line long. They are the obvious questions that anyone interested in understanding this issue (and its legal implications) would ask. The administration's "answers" to these questions are uniformly non-responsive and, for the most part, simply repeat boilerplate language about the classified and sensitive nature of the program. Even purely legal questions are completely dodged. It takes the DOJ only 15 pages to respond to all 45 of the questions submitted by the House Democrats.

The questions submitted by the Republicans, however, are almost all long, convoluted, argumentative questions, many of which misstate key legal concepts. They are, for the most part, leading questions which assume away the most important distinctions in the law. The Republican questions are clearly not intended to augment anyone's understanding of the program, but rather to establish a legal and political defense for the administration. In stark contrast to the Democratic questions, the administration's responses to the Republican questions are generally fulsome and detailed (albeit highly misleading). It takes the DOJ a full 40 pages to respond to the 51 Republican questions.

The administration's responses to the Democratic questions, particularly when compared side-by-side to its responses to the Republican questions, are as blatant an example as I've ever seen of partisan stonewalling. For instance, consider the response to this important question submitted by the Democrats:

25. What is the limiting principle of the President's claimed inherent authority as commander-in-chief? For example, does this interpretation of the law authorize the opening of first-class mail of U.S. citizens under the DOJ's interpretation, and if not, why not?

The DOJ response merely repeats the administration's boilerplate description of the NSA program and then states: "Whether the President's authority under the Constitution would permit the interception of mail would require a different legal analysis."

The next Democratic question asks:

26. Under the Administration's legal interpretation, does the President have the authority to wiretap Americans' domestic calls and emails under his inherent constitutional power and the AUMF, if he feels it involves al Qaeda activity?

The DOJ response merely points out that NSA program is much narrower than programs authorized by President's Wilson and Roosevelt and ends by noting: "Interceptions of the contents of domestic communications would present a different legal question."

Is it even possible to craft a less responsive answer to a legitimate and important legal question? The entire point of the question is that there does not appear to be any relevant legal distinction between intercepting calls to which one party is a U.S. citizen and calls where both are; the Democrats want to know--for obvious reasons--why the Bush administration's legal reasoning doesn't extend to purely domestic calls. In response they are told merely that interception of domestic communications "would present a different legal question."

That's an insulting and totally unacceptable response to an incredibly important (and purely legal) question. There is simply no excuse for this behavior in our system of government. Congress has a right to have questions like this answered, particularly when the DOJ, at the same time, offers long-winded responses to Republican questions that are nowhere near as fundamental or important.

Indeed, the responses to the Democratic questions at times contradict the responses to the Republican questions. Throughout the Republican responses, the DOJ plays up the importance of the line of dicta in In re Sealed Case, the 2002 decision by the FISA court of review. Indeed the administration's entire legal position hinges on that line; it's the only case they cite in response to numerous questions. At one point in the Republican response--citing Sealed Case--the DOJ states that "the President was entitled to rely on the definitive pronouncement of the specialized court that Congress created to address precisely these matters." In other words, In re Sealed Case, offers the "definitive pronouncement" on the issue of whether the President has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless surveillance, regardless of what FISA says.

This is, of course, total rubbish, something the DOJ all but acknowledges in its responses to the Democratic questions. Given the administration's clear reliance on this particular line of dicta in Sealed Case, the House Democrats asked an obvious question:

36. Was any judge on the FISA court of review informed of the NSA program as part of the briefing of the 2002 appellate case, In re Sealed Case? Were any of the lawyers on that case read into the program? How many?

Here's the administration's response:

As we noted above, the identity of individuals who have been briefed into the Terrorist Surveillance Program is generally classified. We note, however, that In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717 (For. Int. Surv. Ct. Rev. 2002), involved whether the FISA Court had statutory or constitutional authority to place restrictions on interaction of criminal prosecutions and foreign intelligence investigators as a condition for granting surveillance orders. The Terrorist Surveillance Program would not have been relevant to the question before the court in that case (emphasis added).

This is an explicit acknowledgement that the decision in Sealed Case had nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of whether the president has the inherent authority to act outside of FISA. It's also a tacit acknowledgement that no one involved the case even knew about the NSA program. Yet in the responses to the Republican questions, the DOJ describes this case as the "definitive pronouncement" on the issue of inherent authority. They devote literally pages to discussion of a case which they acknowledge has nothing to do with the legal questions raised by the NSA program and was argued and decided by people who had no idea that FISA was being circumvented. Indeed, the core holding of Sealed Case was that FISA is constitutional ("We, therefore, believe firmly, applying the balancing test drawn from Keith, that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable.")

As an attorney, I can't even express to you how bewildering and pathetic it is to see the government repeatedly citing as their sole authority for a legal proposition--that the president's power to conduct warrantless surveillance survives FISA--a case that so obviously does not stand for that proposition.

The questions asked the House Republicans and Democrats and the answers provided by the DOJ are a perfect microcosm of this scandal. One side asks simple, obvious questions that cry out for answers. The administration responds by stonewalling. The other side asks silly, misleading questions, and the administration responds with long, convoluted and equally misleading answers that fail to address all the most obvious objections and legal distinctions. And when presented with these insulting and incomplete responses, neither side does much of anything about it, and the media pays no attention. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

41 comments:

  1. The Democrats' questions are USUALLY one line? That's just flat out false.

    And it's not just false literally taken - it's false heuristically. It's an open question whether or not the average line lenth of their questions is below *3*.

    Are you blind? Or using some nonstandard notion of "line length"?

    That said, if that's the worst I can say about your post, then you're doing pretty well.

    :)

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  2. Anonymous5:14 PM

    Worst. Government. Ever.

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  3. cdj,

    By "line" I meant "sentence". Most (or at least a lot of them) are one sentence long. And compared to the questions asked by the Republicans, they are clearly shorter. That was my point.

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  4. anon lib -

    line = sentence! gotcha! that does make what you said more sensible - thanks!

    And you're right of course - the dems' questions are substantially shorter and more direct than the repubs'...

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  5. Anonymous6:04 PM

    The most shocking thing about all this is that the MSM seems intent on ignoring this scandal. I have yet to hear it even mentioned on a major news outlet that the DoJ has responded to questions by congress, let alone an analysis of their responses. I scratch my head and stare at the TV in stunned silence.

    The only thing I can figure is that the MSM has decided to go along with Bart and simply trust the govt. The assumption seems to be that even if the POTUS is making a shocking power-grab, its only insofar as he needs to to carry out this single program (or programs) to protect us from terrorism. So our collective anger and amazement here at this blog (and elsewhere around the net) is as far as the MSM is concerened, wasted energy over something that just isn't that big a deal. Obviously this raises a whole other question about the MSM's stunning failure to do anything remotely resembling its historical job, but nevertheless they do seem to have decided the administration should be trusted.

    I don't know if they decided to trust Bush, or if they just can't imagine any POTUS would really mean such things, even though he says them over and over clearly, but they've certainly chosen to remain mute on it at this point. Shocking.

    How do we get the MSM to take this seriously? If things were reversed, and a Democrat President did the same thing Bush is doing, I wonder how the rightwing media machine would respond. Rush Limbaugh would tell horror stories about govt jackboots kicking down doors of honest Christian homes, and Hannity would repeat them, and all the yapping heads at FOX would add their 2 cents, and by the end of the day every dittohead in America would be clamoring for something to be done. Americans have such a history of mistrust of power that it would be the easiest thing in the world to get everybody talking about the govt attempt to give the President the powers of a King. The MSM would be unable to ignore the cacophany and lo and behold, by the end of day 1 the Dem POTUS would be painted as a wannabe Big Brother who tried to turn America into a police state.

    We can argue legal points all day long here, but it won't change anything. I agree with Hypatia and others, that as soon as any of this actually gets in front of a court, the law is so clear that judges will enjoy slapping down the executive branch, even if Bush gave them their job. I just don't think any court in the land will go along with this freakshow claim to Godlike power on the part of Bush. But you can be sure they will do everything in their power to keep the courts out of the picture as long as they can. And I don't underestimate their ability to do so. If we have to wait for the courts to slap Bush down, we could be in for a long rough ride.

    Any ideas on how to encourage the MSM to get involved in doing its job? We don't have the right-wing sound machine but we do have this new forum. Scary stories of jackbooted thugs go a long way in stoking anger, and everybody loves a scary story. It shouldn't be that tough to get the noise level up to where the MSM has to pay attention to the clamor on the streets. The rightwing machine would avail itself of every horor story it could come across, and it wouldn't fact-check first. Anecdotal tales of govt abuse spread far and fast. Anybody know a good spook tale? And don't let the fact that its 3rd hand stop you. Even if it turns out to be untrue, it can serve a purpose. If you take my meaning.

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  6. Anonymous Liberal,

    I'm a bit new to chewing through legal arguments (second year of law school) but I'm wondering about the citation of one case in response to the questions posed by the judiciary.

    This, unless I'm mistaken because this is pounded in my head regularly, is rank malpractice is it not? The lawyers in the DoJ are well below the standard of care a reasonable person would expect from attorneys in their repsective positions.

    Is it because this is purely a political exercise that they will suffer no rebuke? I would think that a federal judge that recieved such non-reponses to interogatories would respond with Rule 11 sanctions.

    I guess my question is, and Glenn has made reference to the people having to step in and go over the heads of our governemental leaders, is there a way to remove this issue from the political and get it into the hands of a federal judge?

    How do we hold the DoJ lawyers accountable?

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  7. Anonymous6:44 PM

    Throughout the Republican responses, the DOJ plays up the importance of the line of dicta in In re Sealed Case, the 2002 decision by the FISA court of review. Indeed the administration's entire legal position hinges on that line

    Interesting. Before anyone anywhere was arguing that the dicta in this case was central to the argument the Administration would be putting forth, gedaliya and bart were here, repeatedly making that very point.

    I sometimes wonder if there are any "real" Republicans and Republican supporters on the Internet.

    I see countless different sites on which liberals, Democrats, Independents, and progressives, etc. debate a wide range of issues from strikingly varying points of view.

    But I am still looking for a "Republican" site, as I for one would love to be reading one, but it seems there are none.

    Every "Republican" site is a propaganda site, being fed the same distorted information from the Republican Propaganda machine, almost all of which has little to do with actual facts.

    That is why when gedaliya and bart showed up on this site, the fact that they are members of the Republcan Propaganda Machine was almost immediately identifiable.

    It's become increasingly clear that the Propaganda Machine Party tolerates no dissent, and speaks with a single voice. If they "split" on an issue like the Port deal or immigation, it's only after they have been given permission by the Machine, which has calculated that it serves the Machine better to put forth two positions on that particular issue.

    When an independent Republican dares to differ on any significent point without "permission", he's crucified by the Machine and labeled a traitor if he's lucky, a terrorist if he's less fortunate.

    What's sad is that the overwhelming majority of Democratic politicians in Washington are just another wing of the Republican Propaganda Machine. They bring up the flank, filling the key role of offering a "mock" alternative so the "teams" can swing at each other and entertain themselves enabling the Machine to raise money, but in fact they spout the same, although cosmetically disguised, message of the Machine.

    I almost fell of my chair yesterday when I was listening to Fred Barnes on television only to discover that I, probably the single staunchest laissez-faire capitalist left standing, am now a hate-Bush, angry, out of the mainstream, "far left" moonbat.

    I do admit that after the initial shock, hearing myself described as a member of the "far left" was worthy of more than a few really convulsive belly laughs.

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  8. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  9. AL:

    The administration's responses to the Democratic questions, particularly when compared side-by-side to its responses to the Republican questions, are as blatant an example as I've ever seen of partisan stonewalling.


    The Dem questions which you cite had nothing at all to do with the subject matter which Justice was addressing - the NSA Program. Raising non-issue hypotheticals like opening US Mail and American to American telecommunications was a transparent fishing expedition hoping to get a politically incorrect response to make political hay.

    As the government's attorney, Justice did exactly the proper thing.

    In the insurance defense end of my practice, plaintiff's attorneys will sometimes go on similarly irrelevant fishing expeditions looking for unrelated dirt against my client. I uniformly refuse to respond on the grounds that the interrogatory is asking for information which is not likely to lead to admissible evidence.

    If I had advised my client to answer such an interrogatory, I would be committing malpractice.

    Given the administration's clear reliance on this particular line of dicta in Sealed Case, the House Democrats asked an obvious question:

    36. Was any judge on the FISA court of review informed of the NSA program as part of the briefing of the 2002 appellate case, In re Sealed Case? Were any of the lawyers on that case read into the program? How many?

    Here's the administration's response:

    As we noted above, the identity of individuals who have been briefed into the Terrorist Surveillance Program is generally classified. We note, however, that In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717 (For. Int. Surv. Ct. Rev. 2002), involved whether the FISA Court had statutory or constitutional authority to place restrictions on interaction of criminal prosecutions and foreign intelligence investigators as a condition for granting surveillance orders. The Terrorist Surveillance Program would not have been relevant to the question before the court in that case.


    This answer is correct on its face and Justice has never said otherwise.

    The Article II principle upon which Justice is relying was provided by four circuits of appeal and denied cert by the Supreme Court. Justice cites the dicta by the FISA court of review discussing that precedent to rebut the claim that FISA somehow changed that interpretation of Article II provided by those courts of appeal.

    What you continually fail to mention is that you have absolutely no precedent of your own which contradicts the courts of appeal cases or the FISA court of review dicta reaffirming the courts of appeal.

    ALL of the precedent bearing on electronic intelligence gathering supports the Justice position.

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  10. Anonymous7:03 PM

    I have just returned from the largest, most energized demonstration I have ever witnessed in my life.

    That's from Huffington Post, referring to the 500,000 turnout in the L.A. immigration demonstration.

    As an American citizen, I find this enormously depressing for two reasons:

    l) It's about money, not freedom. These illegal immigrants are free to return to a non-totalitarian government and, very understandably, choose not to do so because they have a better chance to make money in the United States.

    2) Why, oh why, do the citizens of THIS country not show the same passion about defending their freedom and protesting the dismantling of their Constitutional form of governemt, the things which MADE this country into the economic powerhouse that it became?

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  11. the MSM seems intent on ignoring this scandal.

    There's no visual.

    There was with Lewinsky.
    How many times did you see the rope-line film clip.

    Give them a visual, they might cover it.

    All power to the Soviets of cable producers, directors, and film editors!

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  12. Anonymous7:11 PM

    As an attorney, I can't even express to you how bewildering and pathetic it is to see the government repeatedly citing as their sole authority for a legal proposition--that the president's power to conduct warrantless surveillance survives FISA--a case that so obviously does not stand for that proposition.

    As a cynic who thinks the US is sliding towards a all-American version of fascism, on the other hand, it's bloody amusing.

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  13. Anonymous7:26 PM

    Bart:

    As the government's attorney, Justice did exactly the proper thing.

    So, you think the Justice Department is supposed to act as the government's attorney? Hmmm.

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  14. Anonymous7:39 PM

    jao,

    I understand fully why you think what you do about the current SC, because I held similar views myself on how they would rule when issues to with Executive Powers came before the court.

    I think you are 100% wrong. Not that the issue below or the recent SC dissents in the "consent to search" case touch upon the "Powers of the Executive" issue, but there is a mind-set at the current SC that is becoming ever more visible, and in my opinion you have failed to pick up on the signals.

    Newsweek
    April 3, 2006 issue - The Supreme Court this week will hear arguments in a big case: whether to allow the Bush administration to try Guantánamo detainees in special military tribunals with limited rights for the accused. But Justice Antonin Scalia has already spoken his mind about some of the issues in the matter. During an unpublicized March 8 talk at the University of Freiburg in Switzerland, Scalia dismissed the idea that the detainees have rights under the U.S. Constitution or international conventions, adding he was "astounded" at the "hypocritical" reaction in Europe to Gitmo. "War is war, and it has never been the case that when you captured a combatant you have to give them a jury trial in your civil courts," he says on a tape of the talk reviewed by NEWSWEEK. "Give me a break." Challenged by one audience member about whether the Gitmo detainees don't have protections under the Geneva or human-rights conventions, Scalia shot back: "If he was captured by my army on a battlefield, that is where he belongs. I had a son on that battlefield and they were shooting at my son and I'm not about to give this man who was captured in a war a full jury trial. I mean it's crazy." Scalia was apparently referring to his son Matthew, who served with the U.S. Army in Iraq. Scalia did say, though, that he was concerned "there may be no end to this war."


    "Captured in a war"? The "War on Terror?" Does this fool drink too much on all those hunting trips?

    His army? Not our army?

    This preposterous reasoning is about as rational as the reasoning which went into Robert's recent dissent.

    And talk about "angry." There is a shrillness, an arrogance, a disdainful anger seeping out from Scalia and Roberts that I expect we will see soon from Alito also.

    What are they so angry about?

    Scalia should recuse himself from the upcoming case. If he had one shred of integrity, which I personally do not think he has, he would recuse.

    In any case, the other Justices, to maintain the integrity of the court, should insist he does not participate.

    I personally have not given up on Clarence Thomas yet, but I am braced for disappointment.

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  15. Anonymous7:39 PM

    Bart:

    I believe that I can shed some light on the question posed by the Democrats regarding the opening of US mail.

    The question was not hypothetical, but with good reason.

    Prior to the Judiciary Committee hearing with Gonzale, I contacted the Democrat senators and informed them that in 2003, I received a piece of domestic mail that had been sealed with Homeland Security tape. I don't know if there was any surveillance beyond my mail.

    Partial transcript of hearing:

    FEINSTEIN: Senator Kennedy asked you about first-class mail, has it been opened, and you declined answering.

    Let me ask this way: Has any other secret order or directive been issued by the president or any other senior administration official which authorizes conduct which would otherwise be prohibited by law? Yes or no will do.

    GONZALES: Senator, the president has not authorized any conduct that I'm aware of that is in contravention of law.

    FEINSTEIN: Has the president ever invoked this authority with respect to any activity other than NSA surveillance?

    GONZALES: Again, Senator, I'm not sure how to answer that question.

    The president has exercised his authority to authorize this very targeted surveillance of international communication of the enemy. So I'm sorry, your question is?

    FEINSTEIN: Has the president ever invoked this authority with respect to any activity other than the program we're discussing, the NSA surveillance program?

    GONZALES: Senator, I am not comfortable going down the road of saying yes or no as to what the president has or has not authorized. I'm here to...
    _______

    I have filed a request for information under FOIA, and am presently awaiting a response.

    At this time, I prefer to remain anonymous to the general public. However, I will assure that I have never been involved with any activities or persons considered "terrorists," or any foreigners at all.

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  16. AL: if you get a chance you might go over to The Left Coaster and see a post by Steve Soto where he's putting forth the idea of expanding the censure to include Bush's overreaching Executive powers. I'd be curious as to your thoughts. With Bush's penchant for arrogantly grasping daily for more and more power this all becomes the more obious question of how to put the brakes on his actions rather than simply holding him accountable. Thanks for the post, as usual it is pointed.

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  17. brambling said...

    Bart:

    As the government's attorney, Justice did exactly the proper thing.

    So, you think the Justice Department is supposed to act as the government's attorney? Hmmm.


    My friend, the Attorney General and his state level peers represent the government at their respective levels.

    If they can actually identify a plaintiff who has actually been harmed by the NSA Program and that person sues the government for an injunction or other relief, then Justice will defend the government.

    If the legality of a law or act of government is at issue, they represent the government and provide legal arguments to defend the government.

    This is distinct from being the President's personal attorney, which is the WH counsel.

    If the Congressional Dems truly want a legal analysis as opposed to playing political gotchya, the Congressional Research Service provides that service.

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  18. Anonymous said...

    Bart:

    I believe that I can shed some light on the question posed by the Democrats regarding the opening of US mail.

    The question was not hypothetical, but with good reason.

    Prior to the Judiciary Committee hearing with Gonzale, I contacted the Democrat senators and informed them that in 2003, I received a piece of domestic mail that had been sealed with Homeland Security tape. I don't know if there was any surveillance beyond my mail.

    Partial transcript of hearing:

    FEINSTEIN: Senator Kennedy asked you about first-class mail, has it been opened, and you declined answering.

    Let me ask this way: Has any other secret order or directive been issued by the president or any other senior administration official which authorizes conduct which would otherwise be prohibited by law? Yes or no will do.

    GONZALES: Senator, the president has not authorized any conduct that I'm aware of that is in contravention of law.

    FEINSTEIN: Has the president ever invoked this authority with respect to any activity other than NSA surveillance?

    GONZALES: Again, Senator, I'm not sure how to answer that question.

    The president has exercised his authority to authorize this very targeted surveillance of international communication of the enemy. So I'm sorry, your question is?

    FEINSTEIN: Has the president ever invoked this authority with respect to any activity other than the program we're discussing, the NSA surveillance program?

    GONZALES: Senator, I am not comfortable going down the road of saying yes or no as to what the president has or has not authorized. I'm here to...
    _______

    I have filed a request for information under FOIA, and am presently awaiting a response.

    At this time, I prefer to remain anonymous to the general public. However, I will assure that I have never been involved with any activities or persons considered "terrorists," or any foreigners at all.


    OK, then you need to find attorneys experienced in the navigating the Homeland Security bureaucracy, the Post Office, and the FOIA process. The government can run civilians around in circles for years.

    Was this an international correspondence? There are any number of reasons such a parcel may have been opened from suspected drugs, anthrax, explosives as well as terrorism.

    As for Congress, if they have a question about a secret intelligence gathering program, the proper avenue is through the Intelligence Committee in closed session.

    Good luck with your case.

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  19. Anonymous8:26 PM

    I hadn't seen this yet.

    A new advisory committee in the Homeland Security Department is free to disregard a law designed to keep meetings open and proceedings public, according to a departmental notice.

    One more log on the fire.

    Also an interesting response to one of the questions. Quoting the answers to the democrat's questions (Bolded text is my emphasis)

    ---
    Question: 43. Has information obtained through warrantless NSA interceptions been used in any criminal prosecutions?

    Answer: The purpose of the Terrorist Surveillance Program is not to bring criminals to justice. Instead, the Program is directed at protecting the Nation from foreign attack by detecting and preventing plots by a declared enemy of the United States. Because the Program is directed at a “special need, beyond the normal need for law enforcement,” the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment does not apply. See, e.g., Vernonia School Dist. v. Acton, 515 U.S. 646, 653 (1995). Because collecting foreign intelligence information without a warrant does not violate the Fourth Amendment and because the Terrorist Surveillance Program is lawful, there appears to be no legal barrier against introducing this evidence in a criminal prosecution. See 50 U.S.C. § 1806(f), (g). Past experience outside the context of the Terrorist Surveillance Program indicates, however, that operational considerations, such as the potential for disclosing classified information, must be considered in using intelligence information in criminal trials.
    ---

    The administration seems to be asserting they can use any information obtained without a warrant in a court of law, as long as it was obtained during the process of "collecting foreign intelligence information." I think this is a new twist.

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  20. Anonymous8:38 PM

    Give them a visual, they might cover it.

    respectfully, that is an extremely ignorant comment (not calling you ignorant, but that idea is).

    This isn't happening in a vacuum -- there is a clear and ongoing patter here.

    MSM failed to cover the theft of the 2000 election. The only "image" that most were given was a bunch of hired repug thugs pretending to be a spontaneous "protest" with grassroots support. It was a lie.

    I won't list all the lies, takes to much time to key. This isn't about, "gee, if the story was only blah blah blah blah blah blah..."

    This is a culture of corruption within a political party that has taken over our government by hook or crook.

    The media has be complicit in this from day 1 -- and you want to say that they might cover it with visuals?

    There are plenty of great visuals for this administrations corruption, treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The decision not to cover them has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with whether or not the visuals exist.

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  21. Anonymous8:43 PM

    Bart said:

    At vero eos et accusamus et iusto odio dignissimos ducimus qui blanditiis praesentium voluptatum deleniti atque corrupti quos dolores et quas molestias excepturi sint occaecati cupiditate non provident, similique sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollitia animi, id est laborum et dolorum fuga. Et harum quidem rerum facilis est et expedita distinctio.

    Nam libero tempore, cum soluta nobis est eligendi optio cumque nihil impedit quo minus id quod maxime placeat facere possimus, omnis voluptas assumenda est, omnis dolor repellendus. Temporibus autem quibusdam et aut officiis debitis aut rerum necessitatibus saepe eveniet ut et voluptates repudiandae sint et molestiae non recusandae. Itaque earum rerum hic tenetur a sapiente delectus, ut aut reiciendis voluptatibus maiores alias consequatur aut perferendis doloribus asperiores repellat.


    Why anyone would get up on their tiny soapbox and even address the crap that our resident troll copys and pastes into these threads is beyond me.

    At least the troll isn't making an ass out of himself, its the people that want to engage the obviously off-topic, unrelated topics that are constantly introduced into the discussion.

    Please, don't be morons!

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  22. Anonymous9:54 PM

    Bart,

    FYI-The letter was entirely domestic.

    My purpose in coming forward was not for personal remedy, but to help widen the investigation based on what I know is true.

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  23. Anonymous9:58 PM

    Yeah, you're right. I really CANNOT believe that the MSM or any large-scale media source does not report this story. What do we see instead? On Fox News, we see how stores are set up in Iraqi bases to comfort soldiers. On CNN, a pledge to cover the "War on Terror" and no real questioning of our autocratic leaders.

    I think it is QUITE clear that this administration is utterly illegitimate and does not represent me or many Americans. America does not stand for this kind of bitchslap from its leaders, arrogantly grabbing power and listening in to our calls without limitations, and America will soon bitchslap Bush for the crimes he has committed. If it does not, then the freedom for which we say we fight is nothing but an empty bubble, a vacuous "talking point" babbled out by our autocratic leaders.

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  24. Anonymous10:11 PM

    [May I ask, BTW, are you "minnie?" Feel free to ignore this question.]

    Minnie from Arkansas?

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  25. Anonymous said...

    Bart,

    FYI-The letter was entirely domestic.

    My purpose in coming forward was not for personal remedy, but to help widen the investigation based on what I know is true.


    Seeking a personal remedy if often a better means of seeking change than via politics.

    Speak with some civil liberties legal organizations and see if this is unusual and if they can help you get the information you seek.

    I sincerely doubt that this is some sort of super secret intelligence gathering program. Spies wouldn't be leaving tape letting you know the parcel had been opened and who opened it.

    I would be interesting in finding out what Homeland Defense is doing with our domestic mail, though.

    There are a number of passive drug, chemical and biological sensors in the Post Office now after the anthrax scares. However, they are of questionable ability and often give false positives according to some of the news accounts I've read. You letter may have have been opened because of something like this.

    Good luck and keep us up to date.

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  26. Anonymous12:56 AM

    I thought maybe the problem with Gonzales' testimony was the quality of the witness, but now we have proof that he presented a vivid picture of his department.

    If Congress had any role to play in legislating and funding the activities of the executive branch, why would the executive branch be so brazen and obnoxious? Somebody wants to exacerbate this constitutional crisis. Why? What is the outcome the Department of Justice is driving toward?

    This is not a rhetorical question. If somebody out there knows the answer or can make a good guess, I would like to see it.

    The Constitution, the Congress, and the legal and judicial system that the administration is pissing on are supposed to benefit and protect us all. Where do they plan to live when the shoe is on the other foot?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous1:05 AM

    Bart said...

    My friend, the Attorney General and his state level peers represent the government at their respective levels.

    Bart: is the "government" the white house administration? or does it include the House and Senate as well?

    Seems to be that DOJ is pleading a version of the 5th throughout.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous1:50 AM

    Wikipedia:

    Department of Justice - the United States federal department responsible for enforcing federal laws(including the enforcement of all civil rights legislation); created in 1870.

    And here's what a page for kids put out by the Government Printing Office says:

    As the largest law firm in the Nation, the Department of Justice serves as counsel for its citizens. It represents them in enforcing the law in the public interest. Through its thousands of lawyers, investigators, and agents, the Department plays the key role in protection against criminals and subversion, in ensuring healthy competition of business in our free enterprise system, in safeguarding the consumer, and in enforcing drug, immigration, and naturalization laws.(bolding and italics added)

    So I wonder when the Department of Justice is going to start enforcing, for example, the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act? And how many American citizens, I wonder, feel nowadays like the DOJ is representing them? There once was a time...

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous2:37 AM

    I always thought that--supposedly--WE THE PEOPLE were the government, that we elect proxies to represent OUR interests and to act in our behalf.

    If the Dept. of Justice acts as an attorney for the government, that means they are to act in OUR interests, not to protect our representatives who have forgotten their place and become deluded that they are the bosses and not our servants.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous3:08 AM

    The DOJ gave their legal
    opinion.

    you guys just don't like it.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous3:30 AM

    jao said,

    I would be shocked if any such evidence were ever actually used forthrightly in a criminal case, because avoiding judicial review on its underlying legality is the very core of of the DOJ strategy.

    I agree completely. I think the first and last sentences of their answer sum up the administrations position. The administration also uses the prospect of judicial review and sanction as one of the reasons that FISA was not followed.

    Question 38 from the democrats:

    38. What aspects of FISA are too burdensome for the Administration to comply with? Why did the Administration fail to utilize the emergency provision of FISA?

    Excerpt from answer:

    Section 106(j) of FISA, 50 U.S.C. § 1806(j), provides that if a court later declines to authorize an interception that previously was authorized by the Attorney General under the so-called “emergency” exception to FISA, it may order disclosures about the surveillance to U.S. persons whose communications were intercepted. Thus, using the “emergency” exception poses a risk that surveillance activities will be subject to public disclosure.

    ------

    Section 106(j) is interesting it says:

    If an emergency employment of electronic surveillance is authorized under section 1805 (e) [1] of this title and a subsequent order approving the surveillance is not obtained, the judge shall cause to be served on any United States person named in the application and on such other United States persons subject to electronic surveillance as the judge may determine in his discretion it is in the interest of justice to serve, notice of—
    (1) the fact of the application;
    (2) the period of the surveillance; and
    (3) the fact that during the period information was or was not obtained.

    On an ex parte showing of good cause to the judge the serving of the notice required by this subsection may be postponed or suspended for a period not to exceed ninety days. Thereafter, on a further ex parte showing of good cause, the court shall forego ordering the serving of the notice required under this subsection.

    -----

    It seems that congress wanted to protect the "emergency" exemption from abuse by the executive, reminding the judiciary that in every case in which surveillance occurred but a warrant was not obtained, the judge should consider serving the "interest of justice" through potential remedies. Congress also seems give the executive a pretty easy out with an "ex parte showing of good cause."

    The administration is arguing that the possibility of judicial review and sanction is a reason to not use the emergency exemption.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous4:17 AM

    Our Us Attorney General should read his own guidelines on opening mail and electronic surveillance.

    For example on page nine of:

    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL’S GUIDELINES ON
    GENERAL CRIMES, RACKETEERING ENTERPRISE AND
    TERRORISM ENTERPRISE INVESTIGATIONS

    (4) The choice of investigative techniques in an inquiry is a matter of judgment,
    which should take account of: (i) the objectives of the inquiry and available investigative
    resources, (ii) the intrusiveness of a technique, considering such factors as the effect on
    the privacy of individuals and potential damage to reputation, (iii) the seriousness of the
    possible crime, and (iv) the strength of the information indicating its existence or future
    commission. Where the conduct of an inquiry presents a choice between the use of more
    or less intrusive methods, the FBI should consider whether the information could be
    obtained in a timely and effective way by the less intrusive means. The FBI should not
    hesitate to use any lawful techniques consistent with these Guidelines in an inquiry, even
    if intrusive, where the intrusiveness is warranted in light of the seriousness of the
    possible crime or the strength of the information indicating its existence or future
    commission. This point is to be particularly observed in inquiries relating to possible
    terrorist activities.

    (ESPECIALLY)

    (5) All lawful investigative techniques may be used in an inquiry except:
    (a) Mail openings; and
    (b) Nonconsensual electronic surveillance or any other investigative
    technique covered by chapter 119 of title 18, United States Code
    (18 U.S.C. 2510-2522).

    (6) The following investigative techniques may be used in an inquiry without any
    prior authorization from a supervisory agent:
    (a) Examination of FBI indices and files;
    (b) Examination of records available to the public and other public
    sources of information;
    (c) Examination of available federal, state, and local government
    records;
    (d) Interview of the complainant, previously established informants,
    and other sources of information;
    (e) Interview of the potential subject;
    (f) Interview of persons who should readily be able to corroborate or
    deny the truth of the allegation, except this does not include pretext
    interviews or interviews of a potential subject’s employer or coworkers
    unless the interviewee was the complainant; and
    (g) Physical or photographic surveillance of any person.
    The use of any other lawful investigative technique that is permitted in an inquiry shall
    meet the requirements and limitations of Part IV and, except in exigent circumstances,
    requires prior approval by a supervisory agent.
    (7) Where a preliminary inquiry fails to disclose sufficient information to justify
    an investigation, the FBI shall terminate the inquiry and make a record of the closing. In
    a sensitive criminal matter, the FBI shall notify the United States Attorney of the closing
    and record the fact of notification in writing. Information on an inquiry which has been
    closed shall be available on request to a United States Attorney or his or her designee or
    an appropriate Department of Justice official.
    (8) All requirements regarding inquiries shall apply to reopened inquiries. In
    sensitive criminal matters, the United States Attorney or the appropriate Department of
    Justice official shall be notified as soon as practicable after the reopening of an inquiry.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/generalcrimes2.pdfbnk

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous11:18 AM

    Section 106(j) of FISA, 50 U.S.C. § 1806(j), provides that if a court later declines to authorize an interception that previously was authorized by the Attorney General under the so-called “emergency” exception to FISA, it may order disclosures about the surveillance to U.S. persons whose communications were intercepted. Thus, using the “emergency” exception poses a risk that surveillance activities will be subject to public disclosure.

    Seems like a legitimate concern at first glance. It doesn't answer the question, though, of why they couldn't have sought a change to this (or any other) provision from an utterly compliant Congress that has been eager to give them anything they want. And the only rationale I can see for that is they simply don't want to concede that they have to.

    I.e., the only real question is the one Congress most wants to avoid, apparently: the legitimacy of the unitary theory of the president on foreign policy matters. And on that question, I have to go with a poster from several threads ago:

    An enumerated right of the people in the Constitution trumps an unenumerated alleged power of the President in the Constitution, period.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous11:19 AM

    unitary theory of the president

    Should be: of presidential authority

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Brambling,

    I seem to recall Gonzales being asked during his confirmation hearing whether he felt he could distinguish between being the president's counsel and being the counsel for the people. Of course he responded affirmatively.

    As a non-lawyer, I have to wonder how we can get all these oath-breaking treasonous slimesters and their quislings out of office, and quickly. I understand the law doesn't move quickly in general, but we are under attack every day from the inside, and while we argue the concepts an precedents more damage is being done, even at an accelerated pace with their increased desperation.

    I'm for whatever kinds of censure, referenda, initiative, petition, anything that will help us remove these parasites and keep them from further crimes. That includes those in federal agencies all the way up to the SCOTUS and POTUS!

    Maybe we could just get a few disgruntled WH staffers to perform a citizens' arrest and frog march them all out of there?

    Pardon my enthusiasm. I'm getting desperate, and probably delusional....

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous1:49 PM

    It’s not “The Onion”, but it is pretty good satire. Prove to yourself that you have a sense of humor and visit a right wing (well, not really) site that lampoons OBL’s number Two reporting the latest news. Here are a couple of sentences I liked:

    “Censure? For his deceptions and war-mongering? For his shedding of innocent blood? For bringing utter defeat and catastrophe to his countrymen?"
    "For spying."
    "For spying?"
    "For spying."
    "On whom?"
    "Us."
    "Get out of the Casbah. Us?"
    Now, tell me of Ivy League schools that welcome our Taliban brothers but not their own military recruiters."

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous5:19 PM

    drbb said...

    Seems like a legitimate concern at first glance. It doesn't answer the question, though, of why they couldn't have sought a change to this (or any other) provision from an utterly compliant Congress that has been eager to give them anything they want. And the only rationale I can see for that is they simply don't want to concede that they have to.

    These were exactly my thoughts when I first read section 106(j). As I read the section over a few times, I came to the conclusion that Congress was not granting any power to the Judiciary that they did not already have. Congress was only reminding the Judiciary to be on guard for Executive abuse, and suggested options for using their power to moderate the Executive branch.

    In other words, I believe the Judiciary would have the power to apply these sanctions and others to non emergency warrants also. Any decision would obviously have to survive Supreme Court scrutiny, but there seems to be much leeway given to a court in how misconduct by the prosecutor/governnment is adjudicated. For example, if the government presented the FISA court with a non emergency warrant to eavesdrop on the Supreme Court for the purpose of influencing their decisions, I believe the FISA court would have the power to issue a public ruling and sanctions against the government.

    This is why I believe that section 8 of the proposed DeWine amendments to FISA is aimed as much at the Judiciary as the Legislative and the Executive branches.

    ----
    SEC. 8. CRIMINAL PENALTIES FOR UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION ON SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMS.

    (a) Establishment of Offense- Chapter 37 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 798A the following new section:

    `Sec. 798B. Unauthorized disclosure of information on surveillance programs

    (a) In General- Any covered person who intentionally discloses information identifying or describing, whether in whole or in part, electronic surveillance authorized by section 2 of the Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006, or any other information relating to the Terrorist Surveillance Program under that Act or any program of surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) to any individual not authorized to receive such information shall be fined not more than $1,000,000, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

    (b) Definition- In this section, the term `covered person' means any person authorized to receive information under the Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.'.

    (b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 798A the following new item:

    798B. Unauthorized disclosure of information on surveillance programs.'.

    ---

    joa said...

    DOJ is basically admitting, in its response citing 50 USC 1806(j), what I previously have only theorized: that one reason the government has avoided 72-hour-retroactive "emergency" FISA warrants was to avoid notifying innocent citizens that they had been surveilled.

    I agree, but would expand the statement to include any Judicial sanction, not just the potential of innocent targets being notified.

    notherbob2,

    You are correct. That is no Onion. It is very hard to hold any idea higher than comedy itself and still be funny.

    Now this is hilarious.

    --------------------------

    Avuncular-at-best in a church of new things.
    He traded the records for rings
    as I sat back and watched what I thought would ensue
    not ensue.
    ---
    Destroyer

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous7:57 PM

    jao,

    Thank you for the heads up on the Judiciary hearing and Senator Levin's comments. At the risk of revealing even more of my dyslexia, inherent laziness and sub par research skills, if you have a link to Specter's proposed FISA amendments it would be very much appreciated.

    -----
    No failed revolts,
    no plot from the inside
    could contend with the prospect or trend towards being discovered before our time.
    ---
    Destroyer

    ReplyDelete
  39. Responding to questions from Congress, the department also said that it sees no prohibition to using information collected under the NSA's program in court.

    "Because collecting foreign intelligence information without a warrant does not violate the Fourth Amendment and because the Terrorist Surveillance Program is lawful, there appears to be no legal barrier against introducing this evidence in a criminal prosecution," the department said in responses to questions from lawmakers released Friday evening.


    Last week, I was unable to respond to a question as to whether this Justice position is justified under the law.

    Having done a little research, it appears that Justice is relying upon United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908, 912-17 (4th Cir. 1980).

    In Truong, the FBI wiretapped the telephone of a NV agent with the permission of the AG but without a judicial warrant for the purpose of identifying the agent's coconspirators in a plot to send classified documents to NV. After the FBI identified the perpetrators and brought a criminal case to Justice, they continued to wiretap without a warrant.

    Justice attempted to introduce the evidence gained by the wiretap and the defense objected on 4th Amendment grounds.

    The trial court held that the President's Article II authority over foreign affairs allows him to authorize warrantless electronic eavesdropping to gather intelligence on foreign groups and their agents. Furthermore, so long as the warrantless surveillance is primarily directed towards intelligence gathering like identifying other enemy agents, any evidence incidentally gained during this warrantless surveillance was admissible in court.

    However, when the surveillance becomes primarily to gather evidence for a criminal trial, then the surveillance requires a warrant of the evidence is barred by the 4th Amendment.

    The 4th Circuit adopted the trial court's opinion in total and the Supreme Court denied cert to review the opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  40. jao:

    Truong could not possibly have resolved the question about whether the surveillance today is "lawful" under FISA, because Truong was a pre-FISA case.

    But of course, bart already knew that. He is just blowing smoke again.


    Actually, FISA is not enforcing the 4th Amendment and has no exclusionary provision in the statute, thus any evidence gathered in violation of FISA (to the extent it is constitutionally enforceable) should be admissible unless the courts read an exclusionary provision into FISA>

    ReplyDelete
  41. The other, more talented, "A.L." sez:

    As an attorney, I can't even express to you how bewildering and pathetic it is to see the government repeatedly citing as their sole authority for a legal proposition--that the president's power to conduct warrantless surveillance survives FISA--a case that so obviously does not stand for that proposition.

    You forget: They're amoral liars and fascist thugs. Don't get upset; it's just their nature, like a bear mauling a little child. I'd be upset if any lawyer made such an argument in front of me, but these folks aren't lawyers (more than parenthetically), they're political hacks. Clue number one: Pretending (and even asserting) that dicta are "holdings", and that cases that came to the opposite conclusion are support in favour of your proposition. If we have any honest judges left, they'd bite these folks' heads off in a millisecond if they tried to make such an argument ... but that can happen only if the case ever made it into a court of law. And that the Senate ain't....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete