Tuesday, March 28, 2006

The fictitious Kyl/Graham "floor debate"

By Anonymous Liberal


Today the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in the case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. The Court will be called upon to determine--among other things--whether a provision in last year's Detainee Treatment Act ("DTA") effectively strips the Court of jurisdiction to hear Hamdan's case. The Government contends that it does and in support of this position, Republican Senators Lindsey Graham and John Kyl have filed an amicus brief with the Court.

This amicus brief argues that the legislative history of the DTA supports the Government's position. Specifically, the brief cites a lengthy colloquy between Senators Kyl and Graham themselves which purportly took place during a Senate floor debate just prior to passage of the bill. In the exchange, both Kyl and Graham suggest that the bill will strip the courts of jurisdiction over pending detainee cases such as Hamdan. But here's where the story gets interesting.

Apparently this entire 8 page colloquy--which is scripted to read as if it were delivered live on the floor of the Senate, complete with random interruptions from other Senators--never took place. It was inserted into the Congressional Record in written form just prior to passage of the bill.

Lyle Denniston at SCOTUSblog--who appears to have been the first to pick up on this juicy story last Thursday--noted that the authenticity of the floor debate was disputed by Hamdan's attorneys in their reply to the Government's brief. Hamdan's attorneys pointed out that the C-SPAN footage for Dec. 21, 2005--the date this debate supposedly took place--shows no sign of Senators Kyl or Graham (or, for that matter, the other Senators who appear in the record).

Emily Bazelon at Slate--citing "Senate officials"--confirms that the entire colloquy was inserted, not delivered live. Bazelon writes:

The problem is that Kyl and Graham's colloquy didn't actually happen on Dec. 21. It was inserted into the Congressional Record just before the law passed, which means that the colloquy did not alert other members of Congress to the views it contains. Inserting comments into the Record is standard practice in Congress. What's utterly non-standard is implying to the Supreme Court that testimony was live when it wasn't.

But that's exactly what Graham and Kyl appear to have done in their brief. In response to the contention by Hamdan's attorneys that the legislative history is meaningless because it was inserted into the record without debate, the brief states the following:

[T]he Congressional Record is presumed to reflect live debate except when the statements therein are followed by a bullet, indicating "statements or insertions which are not spoken by a Member of the Senate on the floor," or are
underlined, indicating that they are "words inserted or appended, rather than spoken, by a Member of the House on the floor."

And guess what, there's no bullet or underlining in the relevant part of the Congressional Record. The Kyl/Graham amicus brief also quotes various lines from the colloquy as evidence that it took place prior to the passage of the bill. It quotes Sen. Graham as saying: "I want our colleagues to know exactly what they will be agreeing to" (emphasis in original).

Bazelon even catches Senator Brownback's office in an apparent lie. Brownback makes a cameo in the scripted dialogue, asking if he "might interrupt" and ask a question. Bazelon writes:

I called Brownback's office to ask if he'd given this testimony live on the Senate floor. "Yes, it was live," an aide told me. I said that I'd been told otherwise by Senate staffers and mentioned the C-SPAN tape. "Let me call you back," the aide said. She never did. Nor did Kyl or Graham's press reps.

Now I realize that the Congressional Record is often not what it appears to be. Much of it is inserted at the last second. And even when statements are delivered live, there are often no other senators in the chamber. But this particular episode appears to go well beyond the normal charade.

What we have are two Senators falsely suggesting--to the highest court in the land--that an imaginary dialogue inserted in the Congressional Record was in fact a live floor debate which reveals the definitive intent of Congress. If all this is true--and it certainly appears to be--Senators Kyl and Graham have some explaining to do.

49 comments:

  1. Anonymous7:35 AM

    What's the practical effect of finding out this is bogus? Does it basically invalidate the government side?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous7:36 AM

    Wow. This makes the Ben Domensch thing seem ironic. A conservative who can't speak for himself and steals what other people say. Now, we have conservatives MAKING UP words that NOBODY said to begin with.

    Oy...my head is spinning.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous8:26 AM

    To the extent they are attorneys, they should be reported to their State and the Federal bar--that type of conduct is practicing a fraud upon the court. Rule 11, baby. Of course, they'll never get sanctioned.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anonymous8:38 AM

    This is a true "through the looking glass" moment. The Right has taken relativism to the limit.

    How do these people keep from going insane? Their reality is entirely dependent on a shaky consensus.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Wow.

    To think Michael Moore was derided for saying "We live in fictitious times."

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous9:41 AM

    It's time to say it loud and clear!

    IF VOTING REALLY MATTERED IT WOULD BE ILLEGAL!

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anonymous9:52 AM

    I'm speechless. Kyl and Graham didn't come up with this idea on their own, and I doubt the GOP caucus came up with it either. I'd lay odds the exchange wasn't even written by the senators or their staffers, but instead by the DOJ. The GOP side of the senate appears to be nothing but an extension of the executive.
    For the record I've always thought Kyl was a waste of space, but I thought Graham had principles. Looks like I was way wrong about Graham.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous10:05 AM

    i am not surprised in the least at graham.i cannot even call his office civilly anymore ,i just have zero respect for him now.
    br3n

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous10:05 AM

    This bunch sure do love their scripts. And scripted interruptions no less. LOL

    ReplyDelete
  10. Now I realize that the Congressional Record is often not what it appears to be. Much of it is inserted at the last second.

    Now let me get this straight, just to be clear. Normally, the CR is presumed to be live, unless the words are followed by a bullet indicating that they were not actually spoken on the floor.

    Now can’t Kyl/Graham just say that “oops” we forgot our bullet? Can’t they just claim that this is “business as usual” and no different than when they “revise and extend” their remarks?

    I’m not taking issue that this isn’t completely deceptive (I expect that these days), but I am suggesting that this probably won’t be a big deal at all, somebody will issue a statement that someone “misspoke” about it being live, and the exclusion of “bullets” was just an oversight.

    Also, I wouldn’t be the least surprised that inserting “revisions” into the CR as if they were spoken in a live debate hasn’t been done before – perhaps on both sides of the aisle. (But that’s just a guess since I don’t read the CR.)

    In other words, in today’s political climate, won’t this be a non-story?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous10:27 AM

    I'm not sure what the point is here...more subterfuge & prevarication from the right? Yawn.

    Just another mini-scandal that will be ignored by the WH, the media and probably the Court.

    Without any real power in Washington, all we can do is catalog the abuses for future generations - if there are future generations.

    Next.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous10:28 AM

    Now can’t Kyl/Graham just say that “oops” we forgot our bullet? Can’t they just claim that this is “business as usual” and no different than when they “revise and extend” their remarks?

    Wouldn't that depend upon what they say in their amicus brief? If that brief states or implies that this conversation took place on the Senate floor when it did not, that excuse is going to be a pretty tough sell.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Anonymous11:09 AM

    I'm sitting in Graham's state capital right now. Don't expect anyone down here to take notice or ask for an explanation. It's "by any means necessary” for these folks. Rove proved that here in 2000.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous11:21 AM

    Maybe we should require remedial ethical instruction for members of Congress, administered with a two-by-four. I'm amazed.

    Why do some (most?) Senators hate the institution? This has passed from a political conundrum to a psychological one.

    Has this sort subterfuge gone on before?

    Who is responsible for keeping the Congressional Record honest?

    What interests were Kyl, Graham, and their cameo co-consipirators serving in concocting this phony debate?

    Their actions are a disservice to Congress, the Constitution, and the American people. Can they fall back on the excuse that they're screwing the rest of us on behalf of their constituents?

    Get out the broom. It's time to clean House, and Senate.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Anonymous11:28 AM

    This is a very important story of deceit and fraud by the highest elected officials in the country---both Republicans, of course.

    Is there no way to get this to the so-called liberal press?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous11:36 AM

    What's bothersome is that this 'insertion' of stuff into the Congressional Record happens often enough to where people don't even notice how fake it all gets.

    I have a question to lawyers out there: isn't filing an amicus the same as providing testimony in court? Doesn't this mean these senators committed perjury or false witness?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous11:36 AM

    Yup: Another day, another outrage to democracy.

    Wake me when any mainstream news org decides to give a sh!t.

    If I sound cynical, please...wait...wait for it...

    Wake me when the SCOTUS shows any interest in whether or not the admin is effectively lying to it about 'legislative intent.'

    ReplyDelete
  18. i think littlesky is asking an important question.... who wrote the script?

    was is DOJ or staffers for the senators or.... ?

    is there any way to find out?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous11:57 AM

    From the SCOTUSblog link:

    But the Congressional Record shows that the discussion was extensive, indeed. The Record in that part opens with a statement by Sen. Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat and one of the authors of the new detainee law. He argues that the final measure was not retroactive, and so did not strip the courts of jurisdiction over existing cases. The Bush Administration wanted that, but "we successffully opposed" the maneuver, Levin said.

    Do you think they lifted this from Levin's 12/16/05 Press Release? Wonder what he'll have to say about it?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous12:03 PM

    No, he didn't, Doozer said...
    One of the first thing that struck me about the Senate on C-Span--besides being deadly boring most of the time--was this whole business of inserting into the CR things no one ever said, beginning with the insidious "...request unanymous consent to revise and extend"..."without objection, so ordered...".
    I suppose something like this was inevitable. Assuming this is the first time, of course.
    They say people get the government they deserve. What did we do to deserve this?
    And don't get me started on the Clean Bill Act we'll never see...

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous12:17 PM

    It is just more deceit. We have become a nation of deceit. Forget liberty and truth. Cowardice and deceit are now truly American descriptors. Look for Pat Roberts to remind us something along the lines of "you don't have truth or liberty if you are dead."

    In deceit we trust!

    ReplyDelete
  22. The following is a draft of an article based on the information in this posting. Feel free to revise, edit, add to, refine. No attribution to me required. I do suggest, however, that you not submit it for pay.
    -------
    In a landmark case in the war on terror, Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which many experts on both sides of the issue believe could set the standard for military trials of suspected terrorists, information has come to light that two US Senators have filed a misleading document and submitted it to the Supreme Court.

    In what is called an amicus brief, Republican Senators Sen Lindsay Graham and John Kyl refer to a debate that they held on the floor of the US Senate. The colloquy between the two Senators discusses the constitutional ramifications of the Detainee Treatment Act. The Act sets out standards for imprisoning terrorists and others whom the US government considers potential threats to US security.

    An anonymous blogger at Unclaimed Territory (glenngreenwald.blogspot.com), however, has shown that the colloquy did not take place. After a review of the recorded debate on C-SPAN, this blog shows that Graham and Kyl did not hold a live debate about the issues in their colloquy.

    Instead the two senators inserted their “debate” into the official transcript of the US Congress, the Congressional Record. This is a well-established practice among senators and congressmen. It occurs when the time for discussion and debate on laws are limited but the individual legislator wants to have their thoughts officially recorded to justify their votes on the laws.

    The question posed by the Graham-Kyl colloquy, though, is that it does not carry the customary sign in the Record that legislators’ inserted documents usually do. When a legislator inserts this type of document into the record, it is accompanied by a bullet and a footnote. These do not accompany the Graham-Kyl colloquy.

    Nor do Graham and Kyl tell the Supreme Court that the debate did not really take place. But the amicus brief they submitted to the court suggests that the debate did occur on the floor of the Senate.

    According to Unclaimed Territory, the Senators have not yet responded to these inconsistencies.

    ReplyDelete
  23. To the extent they are attorneys, they should be reported to their State and the Federal bar--that type of conduct is practicing a fraud upon the court. Rule 11, baby. Of course, they'll never get sanctioned.

    Because of the circumstances (no real legal case, no court, etc.), FRCP Rule 11 probably doesn't apply. OTOH, we know from the Clinton imbroglio that dishonesty (no matter the circumstances) is a violation of MRPC Rule 8.4(c). So one could make ethics complaints to the relevant bars and see if the state bars disbar them.....

    Sayyyy .... speaking of which .... wonder what state HWSNBN practises in? Hmmmm.....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  24. Ummmm, never mind that "no real legal case, no court, etc.".... Guess I should read the article before reading the comments.

    But still, the MRPC might be more applicable than Rule 11 sanctions.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous12:46 PM

    If our remedy is someone filing an ethics complaint, we're screwed.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Tommy Yum said:

    If our remedy is someone filing an ethics complaint, we're screwed.

    Lindsey Graham might look a little askance at the possibility of disbarment. Kyl probably doesn't give a f***. But if we can get senators disbarred, it's a bit easier to paint them as a lawless bunch.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  27. cynic librarian,

    My only comment is that you give too much of the credit to me. I was merely highlighting a story first discussed at SCOTUSblog and later expanded upon by Emily Bazelon at Slate. They deserve the credit.

    David Shaughenessy,

    I think you're right to suggest that Kyl and Graham were careful how they characterized the colloquy. I think their description of the facts is literally true, but intended to mislead.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous1:11 PM

    Nina Totenberg did a tremendous job in reporting on the import and status of this case at NPR this morning. If you did not hear it, it's worth a listen. Of note: She reports that more than thirty-three (33) organizations have filed amimus briefs arguing against the DOJ's case. This number is unprecedented and represents a broad spectrum of interest; i.e. its far more than the ACLU who opposed this whole unitary executive theory as outlined in the DOJ's argument.

    Kyl/Graham represent a minority of amimus arguments in this case and appear to be preempting Congress as to the legislative intent behind this act as passed.

    And btw, isn't this the act that did away with habeas corpus as to the detainees at Gitmo?

    ReplyDelete
  29. al: Revised sentence:

    From: An anonymous blogger at Unclaimed Territory (glenngreenwald.blogspot.com), however, has shown that the colloquy did not take place.

    To: A blogger at SCOTUSBlog and Emily Bazelon of Slate, however, have shown that the colloquy did not take place.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous2:24 PM

    This fraud would be better described as an animus brief....

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous2:37 PM

    GREAT WORK, AL!!!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous2:49 PM

    The Potemkin Debating Society will be meeting later today.

    ReplyDelete
  33. This kind of stuff is what in an ordinary case would drive Justice Scalia mad. It's why he doesn't believe that legislative history should be considered -- not ever. Now, his position is extreme, but this kind of playing around makes it seem a lot more persuasive.

    I mean, is it any accident that Kyl and Graham had the alleged "debate," and that they were the ones who then used it, not to show their own intentions, but the intentions of the entire Congress? This is dishonesty in the extreme, and it undermines the use of legislative history, even when it has not been manipulated. One must hope that Scalia will jump on it.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous3:18 PM

    If we are to maintain this blog as the serious, reasoned Constitutional Law debating forum and organizing tool for returning our great nation to the Rule of Law we really must limit the acid bile remarks about Republicans. Yes, spewing the bile on Democrats too is a form of non-partisanship, but we must remember our sacred trust: returning America to a Rule of Law and the protection of our rights under the Fourth Amendment. All of the political sniping is most unsuitable.
    An uninformed reader could deduce that the point of this blog is to elect Democrats from the far left rather than its real purpose of protecting our Constitutional rights. Yes, the fascist Administration happens to be Republican, but that is an accident of history. It is the evildoers who are ignoring our Constitution that are the culprits, regardless of party. [sarcasm/humor alert]

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous3:59 PM

    Part of the reason bloggers fought Ben Domenich's (sp?) hiring at WP.com and thus part of the reason he felt compelled to resign was because he puts words into Chris Wallace's, or was it Tim Russert's (can't remember which), mouth. Now AL is suggesting that Senators Kyle and Graham put words into Sentor Brownback's mouth. Shouldn't the remedy be the same?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous4:16 PM

    Thanks,cynic librarian. That was the best thing written thus far on this matter. I sent it in to HuffingtonPost, antiwar.com,Cafferty, Olberman and Lou Dobbs. If we want these ideas to gain traction, we have to GET THEM OUT THERE so they are covered in the press.

    I put as subject:

    "Information has come to light that two US Senators have filed a misleading document and submitted it to the Supreme Court."

    That should get their attention. Could others write them and others? Their emails are paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com, scoop@huffingtonpost.com,caffertyfile@cnn.com,loudobbs@cnn.com. and countdown@msnbc.com. The more who write them, the greater the chances they'll cover this story tonight.

    Let's help out those who are sold by bounty profiteers, detained without charges, and spirited away never to be heard from again. Many are innocent. I do not write in support of those who have committed crimes and supported terrorism. I write because everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but if there is no trial, there can be no proof.

    "Do not ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous4:23 PM

    PS. Can one of you lawyers tell me if scotus.blog is the official blog of the SC? It seems like a bunch of mean, lip sync "conservatives" are the only ones who comment there.

    Is there another, official site so I can follow what is happening in this case?

    Many thanks!

    PS. Cynic librarian, you are anything but cynical. You are truly formidable.
    I hope Glenn will get you to write a guest blog here.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Oooching ever closer to the Chamber of People's Deputies....

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous4:35 PM

    She reports that more than thirty-three (33) organizations have filed amimus briefs arguing against the DOJ's case.

    So how many was it? Why say "more than 33?" "More than 30" would seem more like it if one didn't know the exact number.

    To wit, if she knows it's "more than 33", she would know it's "at least 34", right?

    Is that like the "33 separate new militias" which were said to have been formed recently in Iraq?

    Guess you can take the boy out of the "frat" but you can never take the "frat" out of the boy.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous4:50 PM

    I am seething with rage that the increasingly more despicable Scalia, who is an affront to humanity, did not have the decency to recuse himself, and had the NERVE to try to take over the arguments himself. Aren't the Justices supposed to ask probing questions, rather than rescue a lawyer who has no real case, because justice, decency and the Constitution are not on his side?

    What a hate-filled man he really is. No wonder he gets his kicks in life shooting innocent birds to death. He must be so jealous of how they soar.

    Analysis: Hard day for government in Hamdan case
    01:02 PM | Lyle Denniston | Comments (2)

    With Justice Antonin Scalia taking part -- and, in fact, providing the only clearcut signs of unstinting support for the federal government's arguments -- the Supreme Court on Tuesday probed deeply into the validity of the war crimes tribunals set up by President Bush, and came away looking decidedly skeptical. From all appearances during the 90-minute argument, the Court may have some difficulty fashioning an opinion, but perhaps not a result: the existing "military commission" scheme may well fail.

    The Court spent comparatively little time on the issue of whether it has jurisdiction to proceed to a ruling on the merits in the case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (05-184), but Justices Stephen G. Breyer and David H. Souter strenuously -- and repeatedly -- advanced the point that the Court would have to find it has jurisdiction in order to avoid the very difficult constitutional question of Congress' power to abolish all forms of habeas challenge to the treatment of war-on-terrorism detainees. It was a point that seemed likely to draw the support of enough Justices to prevail.

    If the Court does proceed to the merits, it appeared that there would be at least three ways that a majority could be formed to find the "military commissions" to be flawed: first, those tribunals would be using procedures that would violate federal laws, the Constitution, or an international treaty; second, a variation of the the first, the "commission" system was not set up properly in the first place, or, third, they can only try crimes that definitely are recognized under the international laws of war and that does not include the most common charge brought so far -- terrorism conspiracy. There was little exploration of an ultimate argument against the "commission" setup: the claim that the President had no power to create them on his own, without specific authorization from Congress.

    With only eight Justices participating (Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., is recused), it appeared that Justice Anthony M. Kenney might well emerge as holding the decisive vote. In a variety of ways, Kennedy seemed trouble about the legitmacy of the tribunals as presently arranged. Most of his questions seemed aimed at locating the specific deficiencies that might be found in their functioning. At one point, he suggested openly to the detainees' lawyer, Georgetown law professor Neal Katyal, that the Court might well "think there is merit" in his argument that the tribunals were not "properly constituted." In that event, Kennedy suggested, the Court would not have to get into the complex question of what kind of charges were within the tribunals' authority to try.

    There were a number of comments or questions indicating that the detainees may well be able to draw the votes of Justices Breyer, Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and John Paul Stevens. There was no doubt whatsoever that Justice Scalia (whose recusal had been suggested by some amici, troubled over public statements he made about detainees' rights) would line up definitely on the side of the "commissions" in their present form. Justice Samuel A. Alito, Jr., through a few questions, seemed to be sending a message that he was inclined to allow the "commissions" to go forward with trials, leaving any challenges until after convictions, if any, emerged. Justice Clarence Thomas said nothing, but he has been, in the past, the Court's most fervent supporter of presidential wartime powers.

    The overall tone of the hearings seemed significantly in favor of the challenge to the new tribunals. Solicitor General Paul D. Clement seemed more challenged than is customary for him; indeed, at times he appeared genuinely relieved at the help Justice Scalia provided for his argument. He rushed to embrace Scalia's points as if they were stronger than his own.


    Clarence Thomas, please come through.
    What a wonderful day that would be!

    AL, can you post a link to the arguments when they are available?

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous4:59 PM

    Can one of you lawyers tell me if scotus.blog is the official blog of the SC? It seems like a bunch of mean, lip sync "conservatives" are the only ones who comment there.

    It's a private blog put together by several lawyers experienced in Supreme Court appeals. I've never seen any comments there that are particularly conservative -- or liberal, for that matter. I find it to be a useful, mostly non-partisan place to check for the latest news about what's going on at the Supreme Court.

    There is no such thing as an "offical" Supreme Court blog. The Supreme Court has a website where you can download its opinions shortly after they are released, and where you can find a lot of information about certiorari denials and other arcana, but no blog-like discussions of what's going on.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous5:44 PM

    "Senators Kyl and Graham have some explaining to do."

    No they don't. They and all other senators and house members -- along with the pResident -- believe they can do and say anything they want... and damn the Constitution, Bill of Rights and just plain common ethical behavior. This is such a sad, sad time for America.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Mindboggling...

    And if Hamdan's attorneys hadn't been as on the ball as they obviously are...? [I thought Neal Katyal did an outstanding job of presenting the case today.]

    Thanks for picking this up, and highlighting it, A.L.

    And James Baker's Baker, Botts law firm is right in the middle of it, don't you know (our 'shadow goverment'?).

    Carl Levin -- you were in the midst of those negotiations with Lindsey Graham - we need to hear your side of the state of Congressional understanding and intent with this DTA as it was understood at the time.

    And more generally, Congress (or at least your staffers):

    REFINE YOUR BILL LANGUAGE!! Hone it to a RAZOR'S EDGE. You KNOW now about the kind of disingenuous interpretations to which EVERYTHING in the law is now being subjected, as the Administration fixes a course of action and THEN goes looking for any sort of "legal" justification for it they can find by parsing language.

    One glaring example from today's wasted 'NSA III' Senate Judiciary Committee hearing (wasted because the excellent witnesses - especially the second panel - weren't used to enlighten and educate with pointed questioning of these experts, because almost all of the Senators ended up absent from the hearing...):

    Morton Halperin told Arlen Specter that Specter's proposed bill, as Halperin reads it, is intended to, or at least in effect will, authorize the unknown NSA spying, while Specter protested that he meant no such thing, and he didn't think the language permits what Halperin reads it to mean.... Hello? Hone it, craft it, specify it, pin it down! Don't leave the Supreme Court, as today, 'wondering' if the Senate really meant to suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus in their Detainee Treatment Act, but just somehow neglected to say so....

    [And the panel of former-FISA judges this morning was a merry-go-round. Senators on the Intelligence Committee trying to ask coded questions about unspecified spying couldn't get a straight question out for the judges, who misinterpreted the question as a result, and ended up answering something else which the Senators then misunderstood in return, etc., etc. And most of the judges seemed to discount, or overlook, the pretty well reported fact that this new NSA spying is TARGETED on U.S. Persons on U.S. soil, without a warrant. They seemed to be addressing the issue as though the target of the spying was basically overseas... Almost as though they couldn't even get their minds around the possibility of another sort of program which would so obviously contravene clear FISA procedures... And as usual, obfuscation-loving Senators just went along with the flow, leaving the public as confused as when the hearing began..]

    P.S. To Joe Biden: THANK YOU. Your powerfully expressed anger and frustration today during the Judiciary Committee hearing is what we need to hear from our Senators. Your idea of censuring the Senate Intelligence Committee is EXCELLENT. The fact that you, and Senator Kennedy, and others, were in Congress and participated in drafting FISA in the first place, gives you great moral authority and standing to decry the present process as compared to the original process of drafting FISA. Don't just express your contempt for the "retreat" of Congress on the foreign affairs front in Committee Hearings. Say it to the American public. TAKE CREDIT for the masterful job of legislating and bill crafting that FISA was and is. Give us some history lessons, and help LEAD the way out of this 'Constitutional moment' substantively, and politically.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous7:51 PM

    Actually, the one thing that might actually cause some discomfort for Kyl and Graham is a complaint before the bar where they hold membership.

    Unlike the usual back and forth sniping (no matter how wrong they many be, and how right their critics), a formal complaint generates a certain minimal amount of factual inquiry, all of which should be open to public scrutiny. This would, presumably, include some ability to inquire as to who cooked up the whole scheme and how, and might lead to additional facts of interest, e.g., coordination between DoJ and these clowns, which might lead to other and additional problems for our little pals.

    Many a fall has begun in such a manner, arrogant clueless exposure to some process, which sometimes actually accomplish what they're supposed to.

    Not to mention that there is no issue of legislative immunity for this sort of nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous9:06 PM

    Enough of this crap. It is far past time to do whatever is necessary to remove these people from power. Take the gloves off already.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous1:46 AM

    Will someone please explain what I'm missing here?

    Quite aside from the merits of lying to the Supreme Court, I can't see that it matters in the tiniest bit WHAT any senators or even the entire Senate
    might have said about SCOTUS jurisdiction. They ain't got no say about that in MY copy of the Constitution.

    ReplyDelete
  47. MadTom,

    Congress has a lot of power to vest and divest the federal courts of jurisdiction to hear cases because Congress writes the jurisdictional laws. These laws are routinely amended and fine-tuned to establish or take away jurisdiction to hear various types of cases.

    This Congressional power is not plenary, however. There are some cases that courts must be allowed to hear on constitutional grounds, and the courts have asserted jurisdiction in such cases despite laws which purport to take that jurisdiction away. This is one of the most thorny and complicated areas of constitutional law.

    Long story short, it was important to the Hamdan case, as a threshold matter, to determine whether the DTA purports to strip the courts of juridiction over pending detainee cases. And, for at least some the justices, the legislative history of the DTA is probative of that question.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous1:20 AM

    Thanks for refining my view of the jurisdiction question, Anonymous Liberal. I now see further discussion of that question reflected in a later NYT article on the case.

    Now I wonder whether the substantive or even dispositive nature of the leg hist does not make its misrepresentation to the justices even more culpable? Is there no remedy, or is this another of the many crimes that radical right politicians can commit with impunity? All gain if believed, no risk of loss if exposed.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Do you ever get the feeling (kinda like an errie cold shiver down the back of your spine) that the Right hopes that people don't read?
    I know the President doesn't. We know that the Right doesn't really pay much attention to detail. Do you think they do things like this hoping it will just pass under the radar and that no one will find out?
    There seems to be a lot of Senate testimony and speeches that make me think these Republicans don't realize that testimony and speeches and letters are archived for later reference.
    Like the speeches the President gave saying when you hear "wiretap" it requires a Court order. Don't they realize that people can sound bit it and use it later???
    Especially when Bush was talking about the FISA courts. Saying that is a 60's law, this is 2006. So are all laws and decisions made by courts prior to the Bush Administration outdated?
    I am very concerned. The Republicans keep badgering the Left on who are they going to run for President in 2008, yet no real Republican nominee or frontrunner for nominee has surfaced. Makes me wonder that they aren't really concerned about it. Makes me wonder if Bush's Alberto is going to pull some more bullshit about the President having War Powers and can declair martial law and remain the President indefinately.
    This whole thing with spinning laws and singing statements and the President is always right, really make me miss Monica.

    ReplyDelete