There were multiple noteworthy developments yesterday in the NSA scandal:
(1) There is a truly amazing 50-state survey (h/t Markos) on the views of Americans regarding the NSA scandal -- and specifically their beliefs about whether George Bush broke the law. In 37 out of 50 states -- including numerous pure red states -- a plurality believe that it is "clear" that Bush broke the law. The best state for Bush is Oklahoma, where only 42% believe that he clearly did not break the law - the highest number of any state which believes that.
And, in almost every state, between 20-25% believe it's not clear one way or the other, which demonstrates that scores of people are still open to being persuaded on this question. And added to that is the fact that three consecutive polls (.pdf) now show that a majority of Americans believe that George Bush broke the law when ordering warrantless eavesdropping on Americans.
If we had a Democratic President and there were polls showing that a plurality of people across the country, in every region, had concluded that the President "clearly" broke the law -- and that a majority of Americans overall believe he did so as well -- would Republicans be taking advantage of that fact as aggressively as possible, or would they be running away from that issue in fear? And, what are Democrats currently doing with regard to the President's overt law-breaking and the fact that, despite the tepid and frightened posture of the Democrats, a majority of Americans have concluded that George Bush broke the law? Within the answers to those questions lies the most compelling explanation as to why the Bush Administration has thus far been able to get away with all sorts of ineptitude, corruption and wrongdoing -- even getting re-elected in the middle of it all.
A plurality of Americans across the country believe that the President is "clearly" engaged in criminal acts, and a majority of all Americans believe he broke the law. That is a startling state of affairs. And large numbers of people who have not yet reached that conclusion are open to be being persuaded. What possible excuse exists for Bush opponents not to engage in full-throated efforts to persuade them? This is a weakened, highly unpopular President who has broken the law and most Americans know that. Is there any conceivable justification -- ethical, political, strategic or otherwise -- for Bush opponents and proponents of the rule of law not to pursue this law-breaking as tenaciously as possible?
(2) The Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the NSA scandal yesterday with a panel of professors and former government officials (including conservative Administration critic Bruce Fein and the odious defender of Bush law-breaking, Professor Robert Turner). Part of what happened is here:
Former Reagan administration Justice Department official Bruce Fein, an outspoken foe of the surveillance, told the committee that Congress ought to use its power to cut off the NSA program’s funding.
"The power of the purse is perhaps the greatest power the Founding Fathers entrusted to the legislative branch" and it "should be used now" to end the program, Fein said, unless Bush explains why he could not stay within the confines of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which bans warrantless eavesdropping in the United States.
Former Clinton administration State Department official Harold Hongju Koh, who is now Dean of Yale Law School, told Specter’s committee that the NSA spying was "as blatantly illegal a program as I’ve seen."
If Congress went along with Bush’s rationale for the NSA spying, it "would turn this body into a pointless rubber stamp whose limited role in the war on terror would be enacting laws the president could ignore at will."
And Koh told Specter his bill wouldn’t remedy the problem. One reason: Specter’s bill would allow the FISA court to authorize the entire NSA spying program, not particular searches of particular people. Therefore it would allow a general warrant, which is what the Framers of the Constitution tried to ban by writing the Fourth Amendment, Koh said.
Unsurprisingly, Russ Feingold continued his heroic ways:
Asked where the NSA controversy was headed, Feingold said, "It’s up to Congress, whether Congress has the courage to stand up to an extreme assertion of executive power."
Feingold said cutting off funding is one option that he is looking at. "There’s a time and a place to do that which is coming up soon," he said.
He added, "We have to address the fact that the president has broken the law." Feingold also said he opposed Specter’s proposed bill because "it hands over congressional power to the executive a way that I think is very disturbing in terms of the protections in the Bill of Rights."
And, following up on the discussion here over the last few days about Arlen Specter, he apparently made statements at the hearings which makes clear that he believes that the program is illegal:
Numerous lawmakers, including Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), disagree [with the Administration’s claims that they can eavesdrop outside of FISA]. Specter says the NSA program violates the FISA law, and he is proposing legislation that would allow the FISA court to rule on the program's constitutionality and to oversee aspects of the surveillance operations.
I was unable to listen to the hearing, so if anyone finds where there is a transcript, I'd appreciate if you could post the link in Comments or e-mail it to me. From what I last heard, Specter still intends to call former DoJ officials James Comey, Jack Goldsmith and others to testify about the legality of the program, so the Juduciary Committee hearings will continue.
(3) For several weeks now, many people, including many at this blog, have speculated that two important as-yet-unrevealed facts were likely true: (a) that Gonzales’ conspicuous efforts to confine his statements defending the NSA program to "the program described by the President" strongly suggested that there are other warrantless eavesdropping programs directed at Americans on U.S. soil which have not yet been disclosed; and (b) the whole AUMF justification for the warrantless eavesdropping program is an after-the-fact justification which the DoJ only invented long after the program started; the notion that the AUMF exempted the Administration from FISA was not an actual understanding of the AUMF which anyone -- including the Administration -- had when the AUMF was enacted.
An important article from this morning’s Washington Post makes clear that both of those hypothesis are almost certainly true:
Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales appeared to suggest yesterday that the Bush administration's warrantless domestic surveillance operations may extend beyond the outlines that the president acknowledged in mid-December.
In a letter yesterday to senators in which he asked to clarify his Feb. 6 testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Gonzales also seemed to imply that the administration's original legal justification for the program was not as clear-cut as he indicated three weeks ago.
At that appearance, Gonzales confined his comments to the National Security Agency's warrantless wiretapping program, saying that President Bush had authorized it "and that is all that he has authorized."
But in yesterday's letter, Gonzales, citing that quote, wrote: "I did not and could not address . . . any other classified intelligence activities." Using the administration's term for the recently disclosed operation, he continued, "I was confining my remarks to the Terrorist Surveillance Program as described by the President, the legality of which was the subject" of the Feb. 6 hearing.
At least one constitutional scholar who testified before the committee yesterday said in an interview that Gonzales appeared to be hinting that the operation disclosed by the New York Times in mid-December is not the full extent of eavesdropping on U.S. residents conducted without court warrants.
"It seems to me he is conceding that there are other NSA surveillance programs ongoing that the president hasn't told anyone about," said Bruce Fein, a government lawyer in the Nixon, Carter and Reagan administrations.
And Gonzales all but admitted he was misleading in his testimony before the Committee because he tried to imply - falsely - that the Administration, from the beginning, interpreted the AUMF as authorization to conduct warrantless eavesdropping. As has been apparent for quite some time, nobody – including the Administration – ever interpreted the AUMF as providing such authorization until DoJ officials made clear that they had no legal justification for this program and therefore went in search of such justification, leading them to the fabricated AUMF claim:
On Feb. 6, Gonzales testified that the Justice Department considered the use-of-force vote as a legal green light for the wiretapping "before the program actually commenced."
But in yesterday's letter, he wrote, "these statements may give the misimpression that the Department's legal analysis has been static over time."
Fein said the letter seems to suggest that the Justice Department actually embraced the use-of-force argument some time later, prompting Gonzales to write that the legal justification "has evolved over time."
One government source who has been briefed on the issue confirmed yesterday that the administration believed from the beginning that the president had the constitutional authority to order the eavesdropping, and only more recently added the force resolution.
Given that: (a) not even the Senate has any idea what the scope is of warrantless eavesdropping on Americans; (b) it is clear that the lawless eavesdropping extends beyond what we know; and (c) a majority of Americans believe that the actions that we do know about are illegal, it is inexcusable – to put it mildly – for the Senate Intelligence Committee not to hold hearings on what our Government is doing in its warrantless, lawless eavesdropping on Americans. Speaking of which:
(4) The next two states we are targeting as part of our state-based effort to demand NSA hearings by the Senate Intelligence Committee are Nebraska (Hagel) and Maine (Snowe and Collins). It has been reported that both Hagel and Snowe are inclined to vote for Sen. Rockefeller’s motion to hold such hearings. That government officials have now confirmed the existence of other warrantless eavesdropping programs on Americans renders the need for hearings that much more urgent. If you live in Maine or Nebraska or have connections to that state and want to participate in what we are doing, please contact Jane Hamsher or Thersites at Vichy Democrats.
UPDATE: This article from the New York Times suggests serious Republican discord over what to do about this scandal -- including some substantial disagreement about Specter's proposed legislation to submit the entire program to adjudication and oversight by the FISA court:
Stepping into the growing debate in his party about the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping, the Republican leader Bill Frist pushed a group of Republican senators on Tuesday to work out conflicting approaches to legislation to address the program.
Senator Frist's efforts reflect the increasing determination of Republican lawmakers to impose some form of oversight on the program, through which the administration has secretly sidestepped the existing legal authorities for years to spy on thousands of domestic communications with terror suspects abroad. But lawmakers and staff members leaving a meeting called by Mr. Frist said deep disagreement remained within the party over how to rein in the administration. . . .
Still, people at the meeting, speaking on condition of anonymity because its deliberations were supposed to be confidential, said the group remained sharply divided. . . .
Others in the meeting questioned whether the foreign-intelligence court's approval for the whole program might risk rejection by the Supreme Court, according to the people present. They said still others argued that involving a court would clash with the president's war powers. . . .
In contrast, Senator Mike DeWine, an Ohio Republican on the Judiciary Committee, is proposing legislation to give the administration authority to tap phone calls or e-mail with parties outside the country that involved a known member of a designated terrorist group on at least one end. . . .
Mr. Specter and Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska objected that Mr. DeWine's proposal left the administration too much leeway to spy on suspects without seeking outside approval, according to the people present. They also worried the proposal would retroactively legitimize the program before Congress learned it scope.
Congressional Republicans and Bush followers are going to want to depict these as minor differences, to be easily resolved at some point. They are anything but that.
The question which lies at the heart of this scandal - does the Bush Administration have the power to act free of Congressional and judicial oversight and restriction -- is the question which is deeply dividing his own party in Congress. And they seem unwilling to allow the issue of past law-breaking to be resolved until they know exactly what the scope of the eavesdropping was - not just with regard to the program revealed by the Times, but all eavesdropping programs aimed at Americans.
What are the Democrats waiting for??? What more could you want??
ReplyDeleteYou have polls in your favor. A President who got caught breaking the law. They have lied to you repeatedly, including at the last hearings. The President is weak as hell.
Hello - any desire to hold the President accountable anywhere? How about starting with the fact that he's BREAKING THE LAW????
Can any legal-judicial experts out there tell me just how bad a witness our attorney general was? What I saw of his performance before the committee was aggravating, but also embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteNow he's clarifying.
Of course the spying is bigger than any single program. The administration is vacuuming up information, storing it, and playing with it, and you can be sure that it is unable to throw any of it away.
And the administration doesn't have enough resources to conduct such wide-ranging operations without assistance from contractors, each of which is likely to prove just as greedy in acquiring information and just as reluctant to throw it away.
Congress has its foot in the door, and Gonzales appears to be a decidedly second-rate adversary. I believe that the members are still constitutionally responsible for controlling the nation's funds. Now might be a good time to find out where the dollars are going and to cut them off from anyone who refuses to give a full accounting.
At what point does the growing emptiness of the role of Congress outweigh the perks of "serving" there? Why do our senators and representatives get up in the morning?
Why are we limiting action to certain states? Why not approach all senators, in all states? At this point, you see Trent Lott criticizing the ports deal - c'mon! They're on the brink of stepping WAY BACK from this NSA thing. If 25% of people are teetering, trying to understand what is happening, why not a letter to the editor campaign in all states, that explains the main points?
ReplyDeleteAudio of the hearing is up at http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/2006/JusticeHearingBushSpyingProgramFeb2806.mp3
ReplyDeleteSorry. Let me try that again, and hope this time I manage a working link. An mp3 of yesterday's hearing is now up here.
ReplyDelete"It seems to me he is conceding that there are other NSA surveillance programs ongoing that the president hasn't told anyone about," said Bruce Fein, a government lawyer in the Nixon, Carter and Reagan administrations.
ReplyDeleteI think this is the question that will resonate most with the public: what else are they doing that we don’t know about?
It’s really shocking and telling that Fein would go so far as to suggest cutting off NSA’s funding. Wow.
The Democrats have been timid on anything remotely related to “national security” for so long that they’ve forgotten how to challenge the president on this issue. Oddly, the “Portgate” issue (which is relatively minor compared to this) is the wedge that will allow them to do this.
I think Bush’s interview last night on ABC will only frustrate matters more on that issue as well, by saying that anyone who dares disagree with him is “ignorant” of the issue. This time, it’s many of his supporters who are now being confronted by his “my way or the highway” belligerence, and they are not liking it at all.
That sentiment on “Portgate” needs to be transferred and exploited on the NSA issue. If we can’t trust him on that, why should we trust him on this – and what they heck else is he hiding?
Feingold may soon have more company on this issue, it’s really a no-brainer. It’s time his colleagues find their spines.
I applaud your efforts to get Senators Hagel and Snowe to the inquiry.
ReplyDeleteI've always been puzzled by the AUMF justification. Some of the trolls here have even quoted the section that refers to 'all the incidents of war' and said there it is, clear as day. Sorry, I just don't see any there there.
ReplyDeleteEven if the AUMF could be interpreted as tantamount to a blank declaration of war with GWB able to fill in the to and amount fields at his pleasure, which in itself may amount to an unconstitutional transfer of power, how does it grant an exception to a law which was clearly intended to apply during a state of war? Since there is no specific language exempting the administration from FISA, the exemption would have to be a general one. That would require interpreting the AUMF as far more than a declaration of war, going as far as a declaration of martial law or an American version of the enabling act. I doubt many congressmen would agree that is what they intended or what they wrote.
It seems to me that for the AUMF argument to make sense, you must first except the argument that the president has sole and absolute authority on all matters relating to national security during time of war or crisis. There really is one argument and a corollary, not two. The one argument, since it raises a constitutional question, however specious, would probably require a ruling by the supreme court to settle it, and a serious challenge by congress to get it there. Whether conduct is illegal or unconstitutional is a moot and academic point unless someone is able to bring it to light and has the means, will and standing to challenge it. I can't see the bunch of sickening sycophants and cowering clowns we have in congress doing that unless the public pushes them kicking and screaming all the way.
From an editoral in yesterday's Christian Sciene Monitor:
ReplyDelete"Increasingly, the Bush administration looks as if its abiding principle is that the ends justify the means. Yeah, they say, there may be a law regarding this issue or that one, but we think we're following the spirit of the law - or we really don't think much of the law - so we're going ahead anyway. If we do something 'wrong,' we're doing it for the country's good, and no one should ask questions about it...
"In every case, when someone comes forward to challenge an action, the response is the same: We're past that now and if you want to ask questions you're simply playing the blame game.
"Well, in a sense, yes, we are, because that's what the system is supposed to do when something goes wrong. Those with authority look back over what happened and try to make a determination of culpability. It's a way of (a) finding out what actually happened, and (b) dissuading others from doing it again. Just like the court system that tries all those pesky cases after problems have been discovered. Does anyone look at what happened with, say, Enron and honestly think, 'Well, now that we've stopped the wrongdoing and corrected the mistake, we can skip the legal process'?
This doesn't make the point quite as forcefully as Glenn does, but I think it's a good sign to see an editorial like this in a middle-of-the-road paper like the CS Monitor.
Thank you for that insightful post.
ReplyDeleteMolly Ivans called the Democrats "Weinees" recently in an interview on the Progressive radion program.
She's right. They are too timid to stand up to anyone. They are failing us! We need a regime change, now.
Speaking as a disgruntled democrat, that old Robert Frost quote about liberals not taking their own side in a fight used to be funny. David Mamet nailed the current situation in an op-ed piece last year for the LA Times, making that argument that in politics, as in poker, you can't win if you don't raise. wtf donkeys? I wish there were some moose-like party to root for.
ReplyDeleteDread Scott said:
ReplyDeleteSince there is no specific language exempting the administration from FISA, the exemption would have to be a general one. That would require interpreting the AUMF as far more than a declaration of war, going as far as a declaration of martial law or an American version of the enabling act. I doubt many congressmen would agree that is what they intended or what they wrote.
--------------------------
The AUMF was written broadly, so it is hard to defend that the congress wanted it to be narrow.
FISA says it can overridden by other legislation and the AUMF is it.
This is a classic constitutional showdown. I would like to see it go to the Supreme Court. I doubt the court would rule that the judicial system gets to pick who the executive branch spies on. I think they would rule that Congress cannot overstep it's authority (as the FISA Review Court said) and infringe the President's constitutional rights.
How the judicial branch could still oversee to protect rights is the missing component.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI would still like to hear about your take on legal strategy as it relates to the administration's handling of the NSA spying.
Specifically, how the strategy used in the Torture Justifications (see article on The New Yorker) can be applied here.
This is a classic constitutional showdown.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing "classic" about the President violating a law. It is a straightforward issue. The Supreme Court has already ruled in Youngstown that where Congress is acting in an area where both it and the President have authority - and I haven't heard many people contest that Congress has the power to regulate surveillance of American citizens on U.S. soil -- the President cannot act contrary to the law. Otherwise, we no longer live under the rule of law.
I doubt the court would rule that the judicial system gets to pick who the executive branch spies on.
Multiple provisions of Article I make clear that Congress has that authority.
The country you're describing -- where the President gets to choose which citizens he spies on and the citizens are powerless to do anything about it, even including enacting laws (as Americans have done) banning such spying on citizens without judicial oversight, sounds a lot like many other countries (such as North Korea) where the people have no power to enact laws limiting what their government can do to them. That doesn't sound like America.
Glenn: you've got mail.
ReplyDeleteREALLY nice post, btw.
Also, did you catch the Zogby Poll of troops in Iraq? It's stunning: 72% want to come home within the year. Only 1 in 5 think we should "stay the course." An astounding 90% still think the war is in retaliation for Saddam's role in 9-11. Yow.
A brief comment on the 50 state poll which excites Glenn so...
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to tell where to start with the problems with this poll's methodology.
First, the polled population are self identified adults, not registered voters or, for political calculations the only people who count, likely voters. The people picked up on this poll who can't be bothered to vote and don't pay attention to the issues tend to poll disproportionately Dem.
Second, the sample size is far too low at only 600. That will give you a +/- of about 5% and a poll that is statistically meningless.
Third, if this is like the USA Today pol-itorial finding support for Mr. Bush down to 34%, many or all of these polls may have been conducted on the weekends when Elephants are away from home with their families. Polling on the weekend gives self identified Dems a roughly 13% advantage over Republicans they do not enjoy when people actually cast ballots.
After all that game playing, still only approximately 40% of the respondents think that Bush "violated the law."
Of course, if you ask them to name the law and how Bush broke the law, I doubt 3% could answer that question coherently.
What you have here is the Dem base. They are so lathered up about Bush that they would say that Bush violated the law by hosting the UT football team the other day.
However, if this game playing with polls turns your clock, enjoy...
I know I enjoy seeing my Dem friends get worked up over the fixed pol-itorials and then crushed again when the real polls are taken on election day.
You would think they would learn after 25 years of this.
Why would an administration that had to "steal" its way into power give a damn about what the people think -- the SCOTUS that installed the chimperor in 2000 did not believe the "will of the people" mattered.
ReplyDeleteThey constantly manipulate data about the economy, demanding more tax buts while the MSM echo chamber "catapults the propaganda" about how great the economy is doing..., despite the fact that by virtually all direct measures that relate to the "common" person, the economy is doing terrrible.
Chimpy proclaimed he "hit the trifecta" after 9/11...
They started an war of conquests based on lies, conducting war crimes and crimes against humanity fighting the illegal war.
They outed a CIA operative specializing the WMD to prevent the truth from coming out - treason.
The public is numb to the many scandals, including BILLIONS AND BILLIONS that are over-billed or totally. The army has a policy of just paying fraudulent bills.
The republic party is mired in the largest corruption scandal in modern times -- Enron was primarily a republic crime too. Ken Lay is a buddy of the chimperor.
Of course they violate spying laws -- the really don't have a choice -- the crimes they have to cover are too great. No one in the republican part is really about "personal reponsibility."
They are stealing while the "gittin' is good". They have the technology, motives, and support of congress to spy on Americans at unprecidented levels.
Given the circumstance, what should we expect?
The real question is when are (or it) the plurality of American's going to talk about meaningful change and then are they actually going to do anything but talk.
Why are we limiting action to certain states?
ReplyDeleteCuz jane and the FDL crowd believe that they are so much smarter than everyone else and that if we could just run the Democratic Party like a corporation, they would get what they want. (kid you not -- long rambling post at FDL about that one).
Some think that is all the actors on the stage would just play their parts and follow the directors demands, things would be just fine thank you.
This is foolish because these same "know-it-alls" refuse to talk about the economic issues that were the base of the democratic party -- the democrats, as a whole, refuse to talk about it to.
Could the other program/s be on wheels? Similar to a manufacturer who (in the olden times!) puts some of his product on trains, trucks, etc so that it is in transit and can't be claimed as taxable/identifiable product. As you point out, it's more than likely that there are more programs as yet unknown, but could there be pieces and parts that are moved at will from one program to another? It's going to be interesting to see Spectre get forced into a corner of ethics.
ReplyDeleteGlenn asks if the Republicans would be taking advantage of public opinion on this issue or running away in fear?
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons the Bush administration has been able to get away with all of its incompetence, corruption and lawbreaking is the so-called “liberal media” and its “conventional wisdom” on “national security.”
Citing one of the typical mainstream media quotes on this subject (Newsweek) Digby points out, Thomas is one of the biggest purveyors of the smug, cynical conventional wisdom that permeates the political media. Long after it was reasonable to defend this unpopular president's alleged prowess on national security they did it. And they refuse to let go of the notion that no matter how f**ked up the Republicans are, the Democrats are worse. Winning elections may not even change this.
That, at least, is a partial explanation of Democratic timidity on this subject – however, it’s no excuse.
if Glenn quit talking about the NSA Terrorist Surveillance program that even a majority of democrats in congress on the far left say they want to keep going, his entire blog would become a wasteland of silence.
ReplyDeleteOne of the best indications of how effective this blog has become is how much attention and energy these Bush bloggers devote to trying to personally attack Glenn. It has become their new obsession. Let's review some facts about your comment that I just gathered in 30 seconds of searching:
Of Glenn's last 10 posts, only 5 have anything to do with the NSA scandal. The very last post he wrote, which has attracted over 200 comments and counting, is about the war in Iraq.
The most linked and discussed post written in the blogosphere in the last 6 months, if not ever, was Glenn's post on the Cult of Bush. That had nothing to do with the NSA scandal.
Having said that, I'm grateful for this blog because it has educated so many about the law-breaking rat that we have in the White House. And if Glenn did write only about the NSA stuff, it would be reason enough to come here. But he doesn't.
Now granted, this blog is not nearly as important or exciting as the Dog's JunkYardDog blog, so I'm sure your snitty comments about Glenn's blog have nothing to do with jealousy or anything. But still, if you want to insult the blog, you should at least have your facts in line.
these same "know-it-alls" refuse to talk about the economic issues that were the base of the democratic party -- the democrats, as a whole, refuse to talk about it to.
ReplyDeleteThusly -- and Thusly -- and Thusly -- and Thusly
and Thusly
and Thusly
and Thusly,
I refute thee.
Hey Bart.
ReplyDeleteDid your brother do anything heroic today?
Anything you want to put on your resume?
Just askin...
I know it's illegal, you know it's illegal and people who read liberal blogs know it's illegal. But the majority of Americans are clueless.
ReplyDeleteHeck, they don't even know their First Amendment rights:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11611015/
Follow the money. The power of the purse is the power to whom all others must eventually bow.
ReplyDeleteIn that regard, at the appropriate time, I am going to attempt to organize a nationwide boycott of Google, those hypocritical enablers who work hand in hand with Bushco to faciliate some of his illegal spying programs while pretending to be independent, as they hand over the names of the Chinese equivalent of people like us, who are then jailed and tossed into jail for years.
Boycotting Google would be so easy. Sure, keep using it if you want for your searches. Take their service for free, ha ha. But if a third or more of their uses pledge never to read their ads or patronize those who advertise on their site, and if Lou Dobbs, Keith Olberman and Jack Cafferty do their part to publicize the boycott, the "invisible hand of the market" can slap those bastards in the face by doing some real damage to their stock.
Are there other Mccompanies just as bad? Sure. AT and T is probably one of them. But you can't fight all wars at the same time, and Google is one of the most sitting duck targets for an effective boycott that has ever waddled across the road.
To Clarify: The question will eventually become not just how the Bush administration justified its actions, but what other "activities" thus far not "described by the President" are going on. Hmm. And when did these programs start?
ReplyDeletebenfranklin and others:
ReplyDeleteGlenn and others are drafting a plan that they think will work. It is their plan and they are asking for help with their plan, IF you want to help, then participate. If you don't want to participate, don't. If you want to do something in addition to or instead of the plan that this owner of this blog has offered, then formulate your own plan and ask others to help you in your efforts.
"Why are you doing that when I want you to do this?" is an inane criticism. As the Repubs like to say about the Dems, all you do is bitch but you have no ideas of your own.
With that said, your idea of contacting your own Senator is a valid point. I have been contacting my Senators on this very matter. I quote pieces of Glenn's posts (with credit to him), expressly state that I adopt his reasoning as my own, and paste a link to his blog so that they can review the complete arguments. Glenn did not have to tell me to do this (and he can ask me to stop quoting his articles, if he wants). He doesn't have to give you permission either. In short, put your idea to work!
Rick
Scoop Poopy Dog:
ReplyDeleteHey, muffin. You'r stupid, but amusing. Again, maybe only to me, but I always smile when I remember when you would bend in half and lick your pink lipstick. Man, that made me jealous, but at least you always took care of me, too.
Says your Homerotic!
A question to all those respondents who have spent their time and energy either attempting to refute or even challenge Glenn's posts on the NSA wiretapping and Iraq:
ReplyDeleteWould you be as quick to assert the President's 'inherent authority' to ignore the law (and let's all be honest, that is what is happening here) if it were a Democratic administration doing this?
Would you be as quick or vocal to insist Iraq is a noble, worthy cause if it had been ordered by a Democrat sitting in the Oval Office and we still ended up with the mess we have now?
We'll never know, but I'd like to hear it anyway.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteA question to all those respondents who have spent their time and energy either attempting to refute or even challenge Glenn's posts on the NSA wiretapping and Iraq:
Would you be as quick to assert the President's 'inherent authority' to ignore the law (and let's all be honest, that is what is happening here) if it were a Democratic administration doing this?
Yes.
The similar Able Danger program run under the Clinton Administration which identified the Atta cell before 9/11 is one of his finest achievements.
BTW, I also would not have a problem with relying upon Congressional oversight of the NSA program if the nation has a brain fart and elects a President Hillary Clinton.
ReplyDeleteThe NATION is at war regardless of what administration is in power.
Why are we limiting action to certain states?
ReplyDeleteCuz jane and the FDL crowd believe that they are so much smarter than everyone else and that if we could just run the Democratic Party like a corporation, they would get what they want. (kid you not -- long rambling post at FDL about that one).
So true. I do not believe in infighting or eliminating people who may be of help when hiring the troops to engage in a war, but that site has troubled me for some time, and I doubt they will be in the front lines when we really get going and start this intellectual "revolutionary war."
FDL is the baby you would get if you crossed the ideas laid out on this site with Oprah Winfrey.
As Rome burns, Nero puts cartoons about the WAPO ombudsman on his site. She is insignificant. FDL is becoming a vanity production, whose main purpose is to promote its site, show how "hip" its hosts are, and while they're at it, re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titantic by throwing out some impotent Democrats and putting in others, to show they can.
These "cults of personality" have a bitter aftertaste. Cults of ideas are more palatable.
"One government source who has been briefed on the issue confirmed yesterday that the administration believed from the beginning that the president had the constitutional authority to order the eavesdropping, and only more recently added the force resolution."
ReplyDeleteIt's hard for me to believe that even its advocates truly believe that the AUMF amended FISA, but the argument is necessary cover for Gonzales, since otherwise he plainly lied at his confirmation hearing in his exchange with Senator Feingold.
Would you be as quick to assert the President's 'inherent authority' to ignore the law (and let's all be honest, that is what is happening here) if it were a Democratic administration doing this?
ReplyDeleteWould you be as quick or vocal to insist Iraq is a noble, worthy cause if it had been ordered by a Democrat sitting in the Oval Office and we still ended up with the mess we have now?
Yes, and yes, without question.
I must say, however, that I don't agree with you that the president is "ignoring" the law. He is exercising his constitutional powers legally and properly. In fact, if he didn't undertake this program I believe he'd be abrograting his oath of office.
Folks, quite soon now this entire dispute will be resolved and (as another fellow wrote above), Glenn will have to find something else to write 1,000,000 word posts about. This is the farthest thing from a "scandal" that Washington has seen in 50 years. This is a classic dispute between the executive and legislative branches and will be resolved as such things usually are...with a compromise.
Wheel mouse: 1
ReplyDeleteGetalifa: 0
I think they would rule that Congress cannot overstep it's authority (as the FISA Review Court said) and infringe the President's constitutional rights.
ReplyDeleteThe President has the same Constitutional rights as everyone else in the US has. The Constitution gives the President no special or exceptional rights. The executive branch is given certain authorities in the Constitution, none of which are the authority to break the law.
The President is not given or granted any exceptional "wartime powers" by the Constitution either. Claims by the President that he is taking illegal or unconstitutional actions to "protect the country" or as a part of his "wartime authority" hold no merit.
In Youngstown Sheet & Tube co vs Sawyer the SCOTUS ruled that A President does not have the authority to ignore existing law (passed by Congress) and do what he wishes because adhering to the law would "take too long" even in a so-called state of emergency, or under the guise of "proecting the country".
Now since it needs to be said:
I will state it again because it's a trap I see countless people (including the media) falling into - THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT, NOT, GRANT THE PRESIDENT ANY "WARTIME POWERS" OR "WAR AUTHORITY". NONE.
People need to stop saying that the President is doing anything under his "constitutional war powers" or "constitutional war authority" because he is not doing so, because there no "war powers" granted to the Executive anywhere in the Constitution.
Stop falling into the trap and conceding the "constitutional war authority" (that doesn't exist) to the President by not challenging this lie every time it is repeated. Please.
I must say, however, that I don't agree with you that the president is "ignoring" the law. He is exercising his constitutional powers legally and properly. In fact, if he didn't undertake this program I believe he'd be abrograting his oath of office.
ReplyDeleteHave you even read the Constitution?
There is NO CONSTITUTIONAL POWER to ignore the law granted to the Executive in the Constitution. None.
Rick
ReplyDeleteEase up, man!
We're on the same side.
I asked why Glenn limited his proposed efforts to certain states - not because I think he is foolish, or because I want him to do things my way, or because I feel I need this blog to endorse or give me permission for what I already do in contacting my own senators - I asked why the effort was being limited to certain states because, based on what I've read in his posts, there is likely a good reason.
It was just plain old intellectual curiosity, nothing more.
benfranklin -- The simple answer as to "why target these states" is because those are the home states for the sitting GOP Senators who're on the Senate Judiciary Committee.
ReplyDelete.
Bart Said:
ReplyDeleteBTW, I also would not have a problem with relying upon Congressional oversight of the NSA program
Yeah, I think the we ought to follow the law too. How come your President doesn't?
The NATION is at war regardless of what administration is in power.
Perhaps you could link to the document where Congress declared war and on whom? As I understand it the last time that happened it was in 1941.
I refute thee.
ReplyDeleteummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, pretty lame thersites2, though I am glad that you seem to "get it."
By your own admission, you are not a superblog -- economic issues are out there, but not being talked about widely by politicians, "superblogs", or MSM.
These used to be the cornerstone of the democratic majority.
A few links here and there does not take away from this fact, though don't get me wrong, I am glad they are not totally forgotten.
Just saying that the coalitions that used to make-up the democratic party do not seem to "hang together." IMHO, we can "innoculate" against "wedge issues" by shoring up the base where it counts.
And when "leaders" start to promote a corporate model for the democratic party......
gag me with a spoon!
The NATION is at war regardless of what administration is in power.
ReplyDeleteNo, regardless of what administration is in power the NATION is not at war.
Congress did not vote to declare war, as is required by the Constitution for a state of war to exist. (and which only congress has the authority to do)
Per the Constitution till Congress votes for and issues a declaration of war, the NATION is not, and can not be at war. Regardless of what administration is in power.
Good moment to notice that the Rep's come out of their meeting talking about the internal discord about "how to rein in this administration" vs just a year ago when they would have been meeting to discuss "how we can facillitate this admin's effectiveness". Small point, but we're working in increments here.
ReplyDelete"Why are you doing that when I want you to do this?"
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen anyone make that argument....
If what you are saying is that it is wrong to post comments here that challenge the "superblogs" or "superstars" that proclaim they have all the answers, respectfully disagree.
After all, it is my country too and sharing ideas makes sense. Yeah -- do what "ya gotta do" and let others do likewise.
It seems to me that the repug groupthink is what got us in this mess in the firstplace.
If what you are saying is that democratic groupthink will get us out of it....
Well, we can agree to disagree, right?
If Bush and his naked teenage gay lover robbed a bank, 34% would still support him. We're not going to do anything about those people; they're either filthy rich or the kind of people who tape over unused electric outlets so the energy doesn't leak out.
ReplyDeleteFor the others, hit them with (1) the fact that Bush and his buddies are all oilmen, and it's not a coincidence that gas prices and oil company profits have skyrocketed; (2) Bush is a "Christian" the way a guy hitting on a chick in a bar is "sensitive and understanding"; (3) the war in Iraq was a mistake then, it's a mistake now, and it will be a mistake in the future. We are less safe as a result, and the ramifications of what we've done are putting our children in peril, either of future terrorist acts or of conscription in a very nasty war; (4) speaking of putting children in peril, the U.S. is living off its credit card and paying only the minimum amount each month. Mr. and Mrs. Middle America surely knows what that does to the ol' family finances; (5) Bush can't run again, but his government is NOT just Bush; it's what the whole Republican party has become. Do NOT let the GOP desert him and run away from him in November. They gave him everything he wanted, and he hasn't vetoed a single bill. They are all in this together, and they should pay for his ineptness; (6) the Fourth Amendment bars wiretapping on American citizens without a warrant, and Bush did it anyway ,which is slightly worse than lying about having a mistress. There, a simple sentence that any voter can understand; (7) if you're going to lose elections, go down fighting, Democrats, and you'll earn back the respect of blue-collar Americans. As Harry Truman said, "Given a choice between Republicans and Republicans, the American people will choose the Republicans every time."
It’s really shocking and telling that Fein would go so far as to suggest cutting off NSA’s funding. Wow.
ReplyDeleteSince Fein has almost always supported whatever criminal activities this or the Reagan Administration ever suggested, you are right.
It should be noted, however, that even if Congress cut off NSA's funding for its illegal wire-tapping program, that doesn't mean the Administration would stop it. Remember when Rummy illegally transferred $700 million from the Afghan operation to prepare for the Iraq invasion? They'll just move money from one account to another and keep doing what they want (it's called "Enron Accounting" and it's what this gang does well), just as they did with the Total Information Awareness scheme. Congress voted to kill it, so Rummy just renamed it and paid for it out of other sources of funds.
With this bunch of criminals, the only way to use the power of the purse to stop them is to cut off all their money. That's not going to happen.
Impeach the chimp now! It's the only way to stop him.
-- Basharov
Something just happened in my personal life, which I am not at liberty to discuss, which leads me to believe that some of the "data" that the Bush administration is collecting through "other" illegal spying programs is being shared with certain companies and individuals in exchange for their financial support of the Republican Party, and a few "favored" Democrats.
ReplyDeleteThat "data" concerns private communications of companies which are competitors of the above mentioned companies, and private communications of certain lawmakers on the state and national level who are involved in various aspects of legislation which relate to these companies.
Jeffraham
ReplyDeleteRight - they're on the committee -but I'm just thinking these guys don't live in a bubble (unlike our fearless leader). They are having lunch together, playing golf, juggling kittens and the like. Their staffers are milling about the local bars.
So the specific committee members are targeted, contacted, then they are out, say, having a free filet mignon and martini somewhere, or their staffers are having a couple beers, talking to colleagues from other states about how the phones are ringing off the hook and the email box if overflowing about this NSA thing - and their colleagues counter, "Well, I'm not seeing that from my neck of the woods, some group must be targeting the committee members."
So, I'm just thinking that those who are consituents of committee members - great, contact contact contact your senators and try to convince them to dig deeper. No argument there.
For the rest of us, though, I was thinking it might be worth a concerted effort to sway the remaining 25% or so (as Glenn indicated from the poll) of the general public that are still undecided. They seem ripe for the picking, if we can just figure out how. I imagine Karl working feverishly to come up with some additional talking points, which are hammered via the media for a few weeks, at which point the undecideds turn to, "If daddy (GW) says I'm safer, it must be okay to spy." - neglecting to consider that this logic is soley dependent upon, for lack of a better question, 'who's your daddy?'
Wheel mouse: 3
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
"I was offended," Sen. Trent Lott, Mississippi Republican, said of Mr. Bush's threat last week to veto legislation aimed at stopping the transfer of port operations to a company owned by the United Arab Emirates. He said Mr. Bush "threatened me before I even knew the details of what was involved or whether I was going to vote for the bill or not."
ReplyDeleteMr. Lott said his immediate reaction was: "OK, big boy, I'll just vote to override your veto."
He called the White House, he said, to advise administration officials that they'd run afoul of some of their strongest allies in Congress.
"Don't threaten me like that again," said the former majority leader, recounting the conversation with an official he declined to name. "It doesn't make a difference if you're a Republican or a Democrat. Don't put your fist in my face. Where I'm from, we're willing to fight back."
Apparently Bush's delusion that he was elected to impersonate John Gotti is so entrenched that he has started acting like a thug with his friends, as well as his "enemies."
The Port deal closes tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteOn March 15, 7 billion dollars will be sent out to the shareholders of P&O.
What a farce. Try to undo that.
For the rest of us, though, I was thinking it might be worth a concerted effort to sway the remaining 25% or so (as Glenn indicated from the poll) of the general public that are still undecided.
ReplyDeleteI genuinely hope everyone does whatever they think is effective, including contacting every Senator, Representative, everyone from every state and demanding an investigation.
We're focusing on a couple of states at a time because it's a considerable amount of work to organize each state and we're trying to figure out the right template that can be applied to every state. Local based campaigns aimed at local newspapers and radio shows, especially in smaller states, can be incredibly effective. That's just the model we're pursuing. But it's by no means the only one and by focusing, for the moment, only on those states, it isn't intended at all to discourage anyone else from doing anything they think can be done.
benfranklin: For the rest of us, though, I was thinking it might be worth a concerted effort to sway the remaining 25% or so (as Glenn indicated from the poll) of the general public that are still undecided. They seem ripe for the picking, if we can just figure out how.
ReplyDeleteWell, I think Glenn and Jane have a good idea on the "how" -- precisely by encouraging those Senators' constituents to express their concerns, and make investigations more likely to continue. Without investigations, it'll all be spun into a case of more partisan politics, as usual.
Of course, none of this should preclude your writing to your local papers, or calling your Senators and Congressfolk.
.
They scream we will not go quietly into the night of sanity and security, rather we will mount our trusty steeds and lay tilt at these many windmills.
ReplyDeleteLaughing.......
Says the "Dog"
I can respect someone for having a different opinion about the importance of the warrantless wiretapping issue. But your post wasn't intended to offer an opposing position, or genuinely move the discussion forward. In actuality, all it reveals is your contempt and scorn for Glenn and likeminded people.
Why are you so filled with hate? Are you so arrogant to believe that your opinions are always right? Wow.
benfranklin:
ReplyDelete"Ease up, man!
We're on the same side."
Consider me eased. But consider this troll:
"Cuz jane and the FDL crowd believe that they are so much smarter than everyone else and that if we could just run the Democratic Party like a corporation, they would get what they want. * * * This is foolish because these same "know-it-alls" refuse to talk about the economic issues that were the base of the democratic party -- the democrats, as a whole, refuse to talk about it to."
I lumped you in with this idiot. My apologies.
Rick
ockeith:
ReplyDeleteDon't pick on the poor puppy, he's just stupid.
Homerotic Simpson
This is off the subject a bit, but the ongoing posts by Bart, Gedaliya and others makes me wonder how intelligent people can be so confused. They seem fairly intelligent, but they also seem to accept every single bit of information doled out in Republican talking points as gospel fact. I have an uncle who gets all his news watching FOX news. Listening to him is much like reading their posts.
ReplyDeleteI try to imagine myself in a like situation. I try to imagine what would have to be the case for me to feel so strongly about a particular president that I'd defend almost anything he did. For one thing, I'd have to be looking at a record of such stunning success that there could be no debate about the quality of the job that POTUS was doing.
I didn't vote for the first President Bush, but by the time he left he'd earned my respect. He raised taxes at a time that made it almost political suicide, but he knew the economy would tank if he didn't so he put his country in front of his own political aspirations. I also was aginst the first Gulf War. I thought we would end up bogged down in a Viet Nam style quagmire from which we'd never get out (without major damage to all involved.)
Imagine my surprise when Bush decided not to waste time and money ousting Saddam. I'd misjudged the man. No over-reaching, no quagmire.
And the overall effect of the war seemed to be that our enemies were in awe of the American military. The whole world was more willing to accept America as the sole superpower. We'd shown good judgment even though it appeared we had a military that could do anything it wanted with ease. It was largely thanks to Bush 1 that Clinton was able to have some success using our military as a police force for the world. Our reluctance to abuse our power let the world feel safe that there was actual sanity at the helm.
I also didn't vote for this President Bush. But when George W decided to attack Iraq, even though I was against it for all the reasons you often hear (Iraq was not connected to 9/11, at least not sufficiently to invade them, I mean come on, if we're gonna invade anybody due to 9/11 it would be the Saudis, no? And I believed the inspectors who told us they could keep saddam contained and etc etc etc) I remembered how the first Gulf War went and figured we'd at least get the benefits that come along with these muscle plays. These were much the same guys who'd managed the first GW, and if they were good at anything its war. Plus they were so adamant about rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq that I figured we'd make inroads into the Muslim World that would pay off in terms of future understandings etc and lessening of tensions and therefore more security at home. Maybe it'd be a decent trade-off.
Imagine my surprise. Not only did we not rebuild these countries anywhere near sufficiently to win any hearts or minds, we also blew the whole illusion created by the first Gulf war that the American military is not to be messed with. Now all the people who loathe us think we're all flash and bang. If they hold out through the initial bombing campaign they discover they can easily hold their own with our ground forces.
Don't bother telling me they're mistaken and that if we sent enough troops there's not a chance in hell these thugs could match our military--blame Bush for the fact that because he didn't bother to send enough troops to do that the whole Muslim world now thinks they can fight our military to a stalemate.
So all the benefits from the first GW have been totally wated by this bumbling bunch.
The economy is tanking. Sure it's booming at the top, but for most Americans a job at Walmart w/o medical is as good as it gets. The surpluses were spent immediately on Bush's wealthiest contributors. Now we're looking at the biggest deficits in history.
What justifies your continuing support of this administartion? Do you believe the war in Iraq is secretly going well, and the economy is booming and the curent scandals are just Bush-hating liberals attempt to bring down a great man?
How did you feel about Clinton? No wars, great economy, small scandals involving his personal life--did you think his impeachment was justified?
I'm not trying to mock you. I'm just trying to understand how you can feel so strongly about Bush. It looks like Gedaliya is paid to love Bush, but Bart just seems to believe everything FOX tells him. How does Bart account for all the bad news we hear? Liberal media?
I understand partisan politics, but i have a hard time understanding support like this without obvious great success to justify it. We could use that kind of energy on our side. Maybe you'd consider switching. Think how much easier it would be for you. You wouldn't have to feel like the guy on the freeway telling all the cars they're going the wrong way.
The economy is tanking.
ReplyDeleteNonsense...the economy is booming. Low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, rising housing values, rising tax revenues at all levels of government. It is impossible to imagine a better economy.
The surpluses were spent immediately on Bush's wealthiest contributors.
Piffle. The surpluses are being gobbled up by the war expenditures, the prescription drug program (a middle class entitlement), and those 10,000 earmarks that we conservatives are so mad at Bush for not vetoing. They are not going "to the rich" at all. That is just plain silly.
Now we're looking at the biggest deficits in history.
Absolutely not. The current deficits are well within normal range (3-4% of GDP) historically.
Do you believe the war in Iraq is secretly going well, and the economy is booming and the curent scandals are just Bush-hating liberals attempt to bring down a great man?
Well, yes, frankly. That is pretty close to the truth.
It looks like Gedaliya is paid to love Bush...
What are you talking about? Paid by whom?
We could use that kind of energy on our side.
Yup, this is true. Why you don't have it is a very telling question.
You wouldn't have to feel like the guy on the freeway telling all the cars they're going the wrong way.
I don't. We're the ones in the driver's seat. You're among those watching history and events pass you by.
…makes me wonder how intelligent people can be so confused. They seem fairly intelligent, but they also seem to accept every single bit of information doled out in Republican talking points as gospel fact
ReplyDeleteUnlike your uncle (and a few people I know), the people you’re referring to (here) are paid shills – paid to be confused, paid to spew talking points here, paid to distract from the real questions facing this country.
Leave them alone. They won’t go away, but at least they will be seen for they are, and the less they’ll be able to disrupt – which is their job.
Virtually everything they’ve said has been refuted numerous times. If someone comes along that makes a new point that has not been dealt with, that’s another story, but I haven’t seen that in quite a while now – and I’m getting tired of the same old arguments being rehashed – and if the trolls weren’t getting paid, they would be too.
Gedaliya says they are the ones in the driver seat. Unfortunately many of us will agree. Unfortunately we can also see that the driver is drunk, irrational, blind, and despite the oncoming precipice screaming 'Stay the course'.
ReplyDeleteIt is unfortuante that to those of us willing to see (obviously not to members of the Bush cult) that many will have been killed or maimed for life due to the irresponsibility of the driver's reckless disregard. Guess it doesn't matter since the majority of those will be either poor or minorities.
If gedaliya said those things about the economy to my face, I'd laugh out loud.
ReplyDeleteEducate yourself. Our economy is in real trouble and there is not much reason to expect it to pick up anytime in the next couple of years.
Or have you already investigated the economy with the same rigor you investigated Nixon staffers working for Bush, a far simpler task?
You can't argue with someone who is flat-out lying to themselves.
Our economy is in real trouble and there is not much reason to expect it to pick up anytime in the next couple of years.
ReplyDeletePlease provide your rationale for this extraordinary and bizarre statement. What do you mean by "real trouble"? A recession is looming? Is the dollar tanking? What are you talking about?
More from Buckley, who essentially says Bush can prevail politically wrt Iraq only by redefining what victory would look like.
ReplyDeleteWILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, JR. - TODAY:
ReplyDeleteIf Hitler had known in June, 1941, what would befall the German army — -and him — in four years, he would not have invaded Russia. Four years! In four years we marched from Pearl Harbor to the heart of what was left of Tokyo and Berlin. In three years we can't yet take a cab from Baghdad to its airport without an armed guard.
We're winning! We're winning! Go USA! Viva La Bush! Viva El Presidente! Our Leader Truimphs again!
Is there any conceivable justification -- ethical, political, strategic or otherwise -- for Bush opponents and proponents of the rule of law not to pursue this law-breaking as tenaciously as possible?
ReplyDeleteYes. Fear, for one. Unfortunately, there are too many Democrat leaders who are implicitly involved, neck-deep, in the muck of Washington. (Look at the vote to authorize a preemptive "war" against Iraq). Skeletons in closets are equal opportunity employers and the level of corruption in Washington is a devastating impediment to change. And wth one insidious Party controlling the Executive, the House and the Congress you can pretty much kiss democracy goodbye.
And, of course, there's the Clinton Impeachment. Remember that?The Party currently in power impeached the previous President. We don't hear much about the Clinton Impeachment anymore. It was a staggering political moment for the rightwing and although Clinton was acquitted, they handily accomplished their mission to demonize liberals, polarize issues, corral in the media and set the stage for the "lawful" lawlessness we are seeing today.
This is an extremely dangerous time for the country. The People, by and large, feel helpless, the Media is cowtowed and the politicians (on both sides) are, by and large, nefarious, misguided and corrupted. The system is rotting from the outside *and* the inside.
I doubt that any of these scandals, at this time, will do anything to stem the trend.
Wheel mouse: 3
ReplyDeleteGetalifa: 0
Glenn --
ReplyDeleteAwhile back, in the comments to one of your posts, I asked (in a flip manner) whether Congress had the authority to invoke their Power of the Purse to "cut Bush off" by ceasing funding to the NSA program(s).
I raise this issue again now.
Bush and the DoJ have essentially argued that no statute, "can place any limits on the President's determinations as to any terrorist threat, the amount of military force to be used in response, or the method, timing, and nature of the response. These decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make."
Assuming that argument is true, then it is clear that cutting off funding for the program(s)--something Congress would have to do by statute... a "deappropriations bill" of some sort--would place limits on Bush's authority... and, therefore, be unconstitutional.
In other words, if I understand Bush/Yoo's argument correctly, Congress cannot end the funding. Bush's inherent powers trump all. According to Bush's logic, Congress not only can't end funding, but they also have the constitutional obligation to give Bush as much money as he needs. You know, to act on his determinations concerning the terrorist threat and all.
This reads as flippantly as it did the first time I wrote it, but I am actually serious. Don't Bush's arguments, in a reductio ad absurdum sense, imply that what I've just written is true? If Congress ends funding for the NSA program(s), wont Bush just consider it within his power to shift money from elsewhere so the program(s) continue? Or fire up another Iran-Contra-style arms-selling project to raise the needed funds covertly?
gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteA very interesting interview
Nuking the economy
gold charts
Inverted yield curve
Now, the one thing our economy has going for it is that it is big, which give it a lot of momentum. It is hard to slow it down.
However, if the fed keeps printing money at the unprecedented rates they have been, if congress keeps deficit spending at record rates, the dollar will see a dramatic decline.
The gist of the problem is that the dollar is right now cannot be supported without taking on ever more and more debt, at faster and faster rates. This can't keep up forever, obviously.
If we see very dramatic economic growth in around 3-7 years and outpace the deficit, we could still pull out of the slump.
I don't want to get into a big off-topic economic discussion, but those links should get you started if you care to look into it more.
In other words, if I understand Bush/Yoo's argument correctly, Congress cannot end the funding.
ReplyDeleteCongress can certainly end the funding. But guess what? They will not. Why? Because they support the NSA program.
Congress does not want the program to end. It is beyond reason wny anyone would want to end this program. It would be akin to requiring that each TSA agent obtain a warrant before searching you at an airport, or the cops obtain a warrant before stopping you at a drunk driving roadblock to see if you're driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
The NSA program is legal, justified, and vital. The Congress knows this and the people know this. The only people who apparently don't know this are the denizens of the Bush-hating left, who consistently aim at the wrong target when trying to bring down the object of their corrosive animosity.
Thank you, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteI found the Attorney General's comments re "the program we are describing today" were very telling.
He's not acknowledging another program, but he's also being very careful to avoid a clear case of perjury when and if the other programs are revealed.
Mr. Gonzales is walking a fine line between loyalty to his boss and loyalty to his own heiney.
Now, the one thing our economy has going for it is that it is big, which give it a lot of momentum. It is hard to slow it down.
ReplyDeleteYes, we agree. But you're the one who said it's in "big trouble," not me.
However, if the fed keeps printing money at the unprecedented rates they have been, if congress keeps deficit spending at record rates, the dollar will see a dramatic decline.
The fed has slowed the growth of the money supply (by raising the fed funds rate) for the last couple of years. It has signaled it will continue to do this, most likely at least another 50 basis points. Since it is, in fact, slowing the rate of money growth, doesn't that mitigate some of your fears?
The gist of the problem is that the dollar is right now cannot be supported without taking on ever more and more debt, at faster and faster rates.
Well, the debt growth has been pretty steady, and all forecasts predict it slowing down in the next five years or so. As such, I see no real danger that the dollar is about to tank any time soon.
Oh, and you might notice that gold seems to have peaked. That, you must agree, is a very good sign in regard to inflation in the long term.
If we see very dramatic economic growth in around 3-7 years and outpace the deficit, we could still pull out of the slump.
What slump?
I'm not going to argue this with you gedaliya, because, frankly, I think it will be a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteWe will just have to wait and see in a few years who was right and who was wrong, hm?
Crabby said...
ReplyDeleteBart Said:
BTW, I also would not have a problem with relying upon Congressional oversight of the NSA program
Yeah, I think the we ought to follow the law too. How come your President doesn't?
The NSA program follows the law.
The NATION is at war regardless of what administration is in power.
Perhaps you could link to the document where Congress declared war and on whom? As I understand it the last time that happened it was in 1941.
Its called the AUMF. It doesn't matter if you use the euphemism "use of military force" instead of "war." The end result is the same.
We will just have to wait and see in a few years who was right and who was wrong, hm?
ReplyDeleteFair enough.
I just responded to a Democratic Party request for money as follows:
ReplyDelete"Sorry, no money for you.
"The president is blatantly violating the law with his illegal spying, trampling on the rights of Americans. The Dubai ports deal reveals that he doesn't give a fig about stopping al-Qaeda; indeed, that he never did.
"And do the Democrats call for impeachment? Do they hammer Bush as an un-American threat to democracy itself? Hell, no. Their response continues to be tepid (with a few exceptions: many props to Russ Feingold).
"Sorry, I want a party that will go to the mat. Bush wants a
constitutional crisis. By God, give him one."
I suggest that other people who receive requests for money from the Democrats do likewise, until they start to hit Bush and the Republicans on this issue, HARD.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWheel mouse: 3
Bart: 0
The image of a child holding her hands over her ears and screaming "I'm not listening to you!" at the top of her lungs comes to mind...
Very mature.
christianpinko, I just wonder how much Pajamas Media is paying them.
ReplyDeleteOh, and Glenn? I think there's some problem with your Blogger account. I keep seeing the words "gedaliya said . . ." followed by a bunch of incoherent gibberish. Maybe it's a problem with HTML or something. I don't know, I'm not a computer programmer.
ReplyDeleteZack said: The Democrats have been timid on anything remotely related to “national security” for so long that they’ve forgotten how to challenge the president on this issue. Oddly, the “Portgate” issue (which is relatively minor compared to this) is the wedge that will allow them to do this.
ReplyDeleteDigby has done a superb job dissecting the bs of "conventional wisdom" as regards Democrats. With Bush you have to take care; i.e. you have to watch what he does, not what he says. I believe that Democrats are simply constrained morally and ethically from adopting this Bush/Rove tactic.
My reason for believing this to be true is as follows: Democrats do not speak with one voice. To me that is an indication of both moral and ethical courage. How much backbone or "spine" if you will does it take to meet with focus groups, determine litmus tests on all issues, frame the issues around the results and develop talking points for all the Republicans to mouth. That's not leadership, that's not acting in the best interests of the country, that's not representative governance, that's hiding under the bed until some consultant tells you what to think and what to say. Gore, Kerry, etc. have more courage in the fingernails of the right pinkies than any of the Republicans currently holding office.
ann said...
I know it's illegal, you know it's illegal and people who read liberal blogs know it's illegal. But the majority of Americans are clueless.
Well, Ann where would you be on the issues if you relied solely on the corporate media mavins of cable TV for your news and anaylsis of issues. Of course more Americans know the names of five of the Simpson v. five amendments to the Constitution. They have been fed misinformation with commercials for forty years via television.
Don't blame Americans for being clueless, blame the media that has them locked in a tight little bubble/prison of misinformation. (And btw, only Gore has had the courage to address this issue.)
From Harper's cover story advocating the impeachment of Bush. The report he refers to is from Congressman Conyers office:
ReplyDelete(Lewis) Lapham writes: "Before reading the report, I wouldn't have expected to find myself thinking that such a course of action was either likely or possible; after reading the report, I don't know why we would run the risk of not impeaching the man. We have before us in the White House a thief who steals the country's good name and reputation for his private interest and personal use; a liar who seeks to instill in the American people a state of fear; a televangelist who engages the United States in a never-ending crusade against all the world's evil, a wastrel who squanders a vast sum of the nation's wealth on what turns out to be a recruiting drive certain to multiply the host of our enemies. In a word, a criminal -- known to be armed and shown to be dangerous."
Apparently Bush's delusion that he was elected to impersonate John Gotti is so entrenched that he has started acting like a thug with his friends, as well as his "enemies."
ReplyDeleteFred Kaplan was just discussing Bush's chronic disregard for Congress re his negotiations with India. (Link via here.) Bush has made promises that require breaking various treaties and laws.
Please provide your rationale for this extraordinary and bizarre statement.
ReplyDeleteThe people that engage those that repeatedly post nonsense talking points are the real morons.
Can't some let their mouse do the talking and skip over the troll posts (I love the mousewheel/troll scorecards!)
Jeeeebus, if people can't tell a real "discussion" from a mindless talking point, we are in trouble.
Why do some of the idiots here think they should try to toss the feces back at the smirking monkeys?
Picking up troll shit is worse than the original "dump."
Wheel mouse: 5
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
Wheel mouse: 6
Getalifa: 0
Prunes ("I'm not going to argue this with you gedaliya, because, frankly, I think it will be a waste of time."): Join me in the wheel mouse brigade!
Awhile back, in the comments to one of your posts, I asked (in a flip manner) whether Congress had the authority to invoke their Power of the Purse to "cut Bush off" by ceasing funding to the NSA program(s).
ReplyDeleteI think that's right. Even if the Constitution arguably reserve the power to act in certain ways to the President, without Congressional interference ("arguably"), only Congress gets to appropriate funds.
Armagednoutahere said...
ReplyDeletetjzipThis is off the subject a bit, but the ongoing posts by Bart, Gedaliya and others makes me wonder how intelligent people can be so confused. They seem fairly intelligent, but they also seem to accept every single bit of information doled out in Republican talking points as gospel fact.
Like my slamming most Republicans as xenophobes when they condemn allowing Dubai Ports to manage some US ports because they are Arab...
I have an uncle who gets all his news watching FOX news. Listening to him is much like reading their posts.
I spend far more time getting news from the internet newspapers like the WP than the hour I spend watching Brit Hume's show in the evening. You need to hear both sides, which is why I am here.
I try to imagine myself in a like situation. I try to imagine what would have to be the case for me to feel so strongly about a particular president that I'd defend almost anything he did.
For whatever it is worth, I have opposed all of George Bush's big government domestic initiatives except for the tax cuts. I voted for Bush for one reason - he is a good war leader in elections where the alternatives were from the cut and run crowd.
I didn't vote for the first President Bush, but by the time he left he'd earned my respect. He raised taxes at a time that made it almost political suicide, but he knew the economy would tank if he didn't so he put his country in front of his own political aspirations.
Huh? Bush I inherited the best economy in decades, passed a tax increase, tanked the economy in the 1991 recession and left higher deficits than when he arrived.
I also was aginst the first Gulf War. I thought we would end up bogged down in a Viet Nam style quagmire from which we'd never get out (without major damage to all involved.)
Imagine my surprise when Bush decided not to waste time and money ousting Saddam. I'd misjudged the man. No over-reaching, no quagmire.
Imagine the surprise of the Iraqis who rose up in rebellion at George I's suggestion only to be left in the lurch by the US and then condemned to mass graves and torture chambers.
Saddam butchered a quarter million Iraqis for heeding our call for freedom.
It was largely thanks to Bush 1 that Clinton was able to have some success using our military as a police force for the world. Our reluctance to abuse our power let the world feel safe that there was actual sanity at the helm.
Clinton used the military for an actual shooting war once - in Somalia. After his SecDef left the Rangers in the lurch in the Mog (including one of my infantry officer classmates, Tom DiTomasso), Clinton cut and run and al Qeada hailed it as a victory. Clinton never used the Army again.
You feeling of safety was illusory. 9/11 changed or should have changed all that...
What justifies your continuing support of this administartion? Do you believe the war in Iraq is secretly going well, and the economy is booming and the curent scandals are just Bush-hating liberals attempt to bring down a great man?
The Iraq War is openly going well. We have achieved every single goal we set out before the war. There is no chance at all that the Baathists will return to power or al Qaeda will establish another Taliban style dictatorship in Iraq.
The economy is booming. The only laggards are the high tax states like CA and NY.
Compared to the Clinton Error, what scandals? So far we have an indictment against Scooter Libby for having a different memory than a couple reporters. That's it.
How did you feel about Clinton? No wars, great economy, small scandals involving his personal life--did you think his impeachment was justified?
Unlike some of my GOP friends, I always thought that Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to the Republicans.
After a bad tax increase, the GOP gained control of Congress.
Smelling the political winds, Clinton immediately sold out his party, eventually signed off on most of the Contract with America and governed like Reagan concerning free trade.
However, the man's incredible narcissism and arrogance led him to commit at least two counts of felony perjury and probably a couple more of obstruction of justice. He should have been impeached, convicted and sent to prison like the 100 or so others who were doing time in the Federal pokey for committing perjury about sex.
How does Bart account for all the bad news we hear? Liberal media?
It isn't so much that I mind the bad news with which we are deluged by the media. Fox does this as well. Bad news sells.
However, the willful ignorance of all the good news and some historical perspective is aggravating.
The constitutional representative democracy which we have helped build in Afghanistan and Iraq and which is spreading around the Middle is a minor miracle and should be the subject of front page treatment like the fall of the Berlin Wall and communism.
I am not as concerned as I used to be about the one sided partisan imbalance in the news, though. There is a very active and effective alternative media now. The partisan hacks in the MSM have a trust level on par with used car salesmen.
I understand partisan politics, but i have a hard time understanding support like this without obvious great success to justify it. We could use that kind of energy on our side. Maybe you'd consider switching.
I would make the same suggestion to you. You are obviously too intelligent to belong the the party of knee jerk reactionaries, race hustlers, and cut and run artists who make up the minority party.
You probably grew up in a Dem home in one of the coastal big cities. Don't worry, millions from the same environment have made the change to being Republicans.
There is hope. Come on over...
Assuming that argument is true, then it is clear that cutting off funding for the program(s)--something Congress would have to do by statute... a "deappropriations bill" of some sort--would place limits on Bush's authority... and, therefore, be unconstitutional.
ReplyDeleteThis is an excellent question and nobody knows what they would claim. I think the country needs to have these confrontations out in the open (which is why, at the risk of triggering that debate from a couple days ago, I think the Specter legislation has potential - I WANT the WH to refuse ALL judicial and Congressional oversight so that the public can see just how extreme and radical the Administration's theories really are (and the ones in Congress who don't realize it yet can see that they really are serious about their theories of absolute Executive power)).
I have heard Bush followers (who want to appear un-authoritarian) say that the Supreme Court should decide the constitutionality or legality of the NSA program, but even a Supreme Court decision, under the Yoo theory, would be invalid and of no worth because it would be viewed as a baseless usurpation of Article II Executive power by the judiciary. I doubt they will admit it in advance (Yoo might), but I believe in that case they would just ignore court rulings and claim that they are invalid because the other two branches are without power to interfere with Bush's constitutional obligation to defend the nation (and, in Bush's signing statement disclaiming his obligation to abide by the anti-torture law, they specifically included a phrase about the limitations on judicial power).
The funding issue is a little more complicated because that power is so expressly and unambiguously assigned to Congress by Art. I. It would be hard even for John Yoo to argue that they don't have the authority to de-fund. Then again, as someone here recently pointed out, Congress de-funded programs to aid the Contras in the 1980s but the Reagan Administration just went and funded it on their own. Does anyone have any doubt at all that this Administration would resort to measures at least that extreme and then claim it was justified (and even obligated) to do so to defend the nation?
The reality is that the Yoo theory is, on its face, without limits. It vests absolute, unchecked power in the President with regard to anything broadly relating to national security, and I believe that if push came to shove, they would follow that theory to its logical conclusions. I want push to come to shove - at least as much as it needs to for the nation to see just how radical this Administration is.
Wheel mouse: 6
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteC'mon now...
When did Yoo or anyone else in the Administration say that the President's Article II powers enabled him or her to ignore rulings of the Supreme Court or appropriate its own money when Congress declines to pass a spending bill?
Article I enumerates the power of Congress concerning foreign policy matters and all other things. Choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering are not among those enumerated powers. Limiting or eliminating the President's Article II powers are not. Funding the agencies which perform that intelligence gathering are.
Cassel: If the President deems that he’s got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person’s child, there is no law that can stop him?
ReplyDeleteYoo: No treaty.
Cassel: Also no law by Congress. That is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo.
Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.
cite
Clinton used the military for an actual shooting war once - in Somalia.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, he inherited that one from Bush I.
Article I enumerates the power of Congress concerning foreign policy matters and all other things. Choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering are not among those enumerated powers.
It's not like choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering are powers enumerated to the President in Article II. But while Article II, Section 2, makes the President the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, Article I, Section 8, empowers Congress to (inter alia) "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces."
Glenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe funding issue is a little more complicated because that power is so expressly and unambiguously assigned to Congress by Art. I. It would be hard even for John Yoo to argue that they don't have the authority to de-fund. Then again, as someone here recently pointed out, Congress de-funded programs to aid the Contras in the 1980s but the Reagan Administration just went and funded it on their own. Does anyone have any doubt at all that this Administration would resort to measures at least that extreme and then claim it was justified (and even obligated) to do so to defend the nation?
The executive can indeed just ignore the other branches. The Constitution requires implicitly (for it to actually work as a legal government) that the participants -- the 'players' -- abide by the rules and have some comity and respect for one another and for the Constitution itself, and really doesn't go into the details as to how to patch things up if things really start falling to pieces (I'd note that the DoI has some suggestions in this regard, however). Sure, the judiciary can declare executive actions illegal, and Congress (theoretically, ignoring for the moment its current makeup) can impeach, convict, and remove the president. But if the president says "you and whose army?", we still have a problem unaddressed by the Constitution. At such point, we may have to go back to the DoI....
Cheers,
I have heard Bush followers (who want to appear un-authoritarian) say that the Supreme Court should decide the constitutionality or legality of the NSA program, but even a Supreme Court decision, under the Yoo theory, would be invalid…
ReplyDeleteWow. Thanks, Glenn. I was beginning to wonder why I wade through the troll-shit here, and you just gave me a very good reason.
It would be hard even for John Yoo to argue that they don't have the authority to de-fund. Then again, as someone here recently pointed out, Congress de-funded programs to aid the Contras in the 1980s but the Reagan Administration just went and funded it on their own.
It is not a mistake that Elliot Abrams, convicted in the Contra scandal and pardoned by Dubya’s daddy is back again – just what has he been up to?
Bush promised integrity and then he brings back convicted liars like Abrams? Please.
If we had a responsible media, Bush wouldn’t have been able to even get away his appointment let alone what criminal activities he’s now involved in.
It never occurred to me that by Yoo’s theory Bush can tell the Supreme Court to go suck a lemon because they have no authority over anything he does.
You need to make this the headline of a forthcoming post. And say it LOUD!
Wheel mouse: 7
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
Thanks for the reples, Glenn and t.s.
ReplyDeleteMy heart sank when I read this part... because (a) you're right, and (b) the thought that they'd plumb such depths of criminality and depravity hadn't yet occurred to me:
[E]ven a Supreme Court decision, under the Yoo theory, would be invalid and of no worth because it would be viewed as a baseless usurpation of Article II Executive power by the judiciary....
Specter's my Senator. It's too late today, but I'll call his office(s) tomorrow and: (1) thank him for at least trying to take this seriously; (2) remind him that it's not really about wiretapping program(s), it's about unchecked power, and (3) encourage him at all times to work as closely with Feingold as possible--I trust Feingold on this.
Let me know if you think there's anything else I should tell the Senator's office. And you might consider putting out word to other PA residents through your well-read blog--encourage folks to get on the horn with Specter's office this week in some sort of coordinated effort.
Not that I would ever dream of telling you how to run Unclaimed Territory, of course.
Others in the meeting questioned whether the foreign-intelligence court's approval for the whole program might risk rejection by the Supreme Court, according to the people present.
ReplyDeleteThis is an important point. Judges don't make law, they merely adjudicate the application of law to facts after the other branches have acted. And courts are extremely reluctant to evaluate the propriety of laws in the absence of a specific factual scenario: even the Administration argued that in the recent abortion case, saying the Supremes shouldn't rule on the Constitutionality of abortion statutes in the absence of an actual pregnant woman (as if appealing to SCOTUS doesn't take 9 mos.!)
The issuance of warrants is a narrow exception to that rule. The FISA court issues warrants. But I doubt it will want -- or even is legally allowed -- to make decisions about the propriety of a government program in advance of hearing any particular case. Issue a warrant for a particular wiretap? Sure. But oversee a program? Which might give rise to a presumption that the program has already been adjudicated lawful? Not judges' job. Not judges' power.
One reason I'm willing, reluctantly, to go along with a "FISA Court oversees program" approach is that I don't think it'll fly, and then the whole mess will be back in Congress' lap again, generating more publicity.
It never occurred to me that by Yoo’s theory Bush can tell the Supreme Court to go suck a lemon because they have no authority over anything he does.
ReplyDeleteHas the Administration asserted that it can ignore what Article III courts say here, or has it simply filled a gap in the law with its own interpretation? It's not radical to suggest that the executive branch (or Congress) should be engaged in constitutional interpretation. It would be radical to suggest that Article II somehow empowers the President to disregard the Supreme Court (e.g.) when it says what the law is.
t.s. said...
ReplyDeleteClinton used the military for an actual shooting war once - in Somalia.
To be fair, he inherited that one from Bush I.
This is true. However, the mission changed from protecting aid workers to search and destroy ops against the local warlords.
It's not like choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering are powers enumerated to the President in Article II. But while Article II, Section 2, makes the President the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, Article I, Section 8, empowers Congress to (inter alia) "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces."
Choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering is a command function and the Constitution makes the President commander-in-chief.
Article I, Section 8 refers to enacting regulations like the UCMJ to govern the personal conduct and discipline of military members. It has nothing to do with making command decisions.
Wheel mouse: 8
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
Choosing the means, methods and targets of intelligence gathering is a command function and the Constitution makes the President commander-in-chief.
ReplyDeleteAre you relying on some conception held by the framers of the Constitution, or did you learn that at West Point? There are all sorts of things that can be called command functions, but even if you call them that, it doesn't mean that the President can ignore Congress's exercise of its various powers under Article I, Section 8.
In any event, I think it's safe to say that listening in on telephone conversations is not what the framers had in mind when they referred to the Commander in Chief in Article II, Section 2.
Article I, Section 8 refers to enacting regulations like the UCMJ to govern the personal conduct and discipline of military members. It has nothing to do with making command decisions.
No, it doesn't "refer" to enacting regulations. You might be arguing that it encompasses nothing more, but if so, you should try something more than your own ipse dixit.
ockeith, I don't mean to sound like a bully, but you are not allowed to use the word "hate" in your posts.
ReplyDeleteGedaliya bought exclusive rights to the use of that word. Check her posts. There isn't one without it, that I can remember.
I find that curious, rather than accidental.
The reality is that the Yoo theory is, on its face, without limits.
ReplyDeleteThe theory may be without limits, but Yoo himself admits that the Congress has the power either to impeach the President and remove him from office or defund him. He has said that these are the only Constitutional restraints on the President's powers in war-time.
He doesn't address the problem of a President who claims that his Article II powers as commander-in-chief during wartime override any attempt to impeach him or defund his killing schemes.
We know that Rummy illegally transferred money from the Afghan war to preparations for the Iraq invasion, so the defunding by Congress would be futile, even if Congress had the guts to try it, so defunding is not an option.
It is an open question whether Bush would give up the office if he were impeached and convicted. "You and what army?" would be his response. Nixon seriously considered defying the Supreme Court decision that forced him to give up the tapes, and it was only because the Court voted 9-0 against him -- and several of his ardent supporters in Congress told him that they wouldn't approve of such a move -- that he did so.
There was a lot of speculation right before Nixon flew off in that helicopter to San Clemente as to whether it would take a squad of U.S. Marshals fighting their way past the Palace Guard to drag him out of the White House. I don't doubt that it will take something similar to force Bush and the Cabal to vacate the premises, if, in the unlikely event, the Congress impeaches and convicts him for his various war crimes, crimes against humanity, and unconstitutional actions.
-- Basharov
Everyone: Go over to Crooks and Liars. There's a link to a poll asking what people's favorite political blogs are. On question #23, you get to write in your favorite political blogs. Guess which one I had as my number one:)
ReplyDeletePS. thersites and constant, yours were number two and three on my list.
gedalyia said...
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not [the biggest deficit in history]. The current deficits are well within normal range (3-4% of GDP) historically.
Right, and that current account deficit is but a trifle at nearly a trillion and 6% GDP, fuelling a plummetting NIIP.
Of course we can all count on oil prices to stabilize or drop, interest rates to remain low and everyone willingly accept a 30% devalued dollar in order to keep our heads in the sand over that one, right?
Nothing but smoooth sailing I tells ya.
Unsustainability really shouldn't be such a tough thing to recognize.
David Shaughnessy starts out by saying “I must say that the polls you cite underwhelm me” and in the very same paragraph goes on to cite four very good reasons (further investigations, lawsuits by NYT etc.) that will, no doubt, change those “underwhelming” polls in a positive direction.
ReplyDeleteAnd then, he goes on in his last paragraph to cite the hypocrisy on the “ports inspection” business deal, which will further drive these polls in our favor on this issue.
Now I’ve challenged Glenn on his optimism a couple of time myself, so I’m sort of guilty of what I think David is in this last post – and that is a “proclivity for pessimism.”
I accept everything David says, but if he reads his own post, he can find all the trends in this issue going in a positive direction – and that’s what Glenn has been trying to get across to us, albeit with varying success.
When Congress limits the combat roles that women can serve in, does the Pentagon
ReplyDelete(a) tell Congress to get bent, citing Article II, Section 2, or
(b) say: "We have opinions on the law, but it's now the law and we will abide by it."
Oddly enough, the answer is (b). Someone forgot to tell the Army Secretary about the President's power as Commander in Chief to ignore Congress.
Yeah wheelmouse. Succinctly indicates the consideration due trolls. Does not assist those who wish to jam the signal, nor nourish those who feed on hostility.
ReplyDelete1) the number of people who say that the Bush Administration has violated the law -- which seems obvious to me -- is in in the 20% range in most states;
ReplyDeleteYou either read the poll wrong or this is a typo. The percentage of people who believe that Bush "clearly" broke the law is in the mid-30s to high 40s in most states; it's only in the 20s in 2 states (Nebraska and Utah), and there it's 29%.
2) in a good number of states, more than 15, more people believe that Bush complied with the law than believe he violated the law;
Actually, it's only 13 states where more people think he obeyed the law than broke it; that means that in 37 states in the country, more people think he clearly broke the law than obeyed it. Only 2 1/2 months into this scandal, with all sorts of legalisms thrown up, that is an incredible number. More people believe he committed a criminal offense in states in every region in the country, both red and blue.
3) I question the authority of the polling methodology. As I mentioned, I do expect that the polling will move against Bush for the reasons I stated.
There is no information that can come out to move the numbers upward. If we get evidence of eavesdropping abuse, or that the warrantless eavesdropping is broader than Bush has been assuring the nation (and we know it is), those numbers will get worse and worse. And they will also get worse and worse with the port deal and other similar embarrassments.
Bush's approval rating has a ceiling of 38-40. As the poll analysts say, the whole country has abandoned him except his cultists, and even some of them are now starting to turn on him. This is a collapsing Presidency.
As Zach pointed out, this is a slow, incremental battle. I find these poll numbers amazingly encouraging (honestly - that's not polly-anna-ish optimism - I'm amazed that so many people in red states say he "clearly" broke the law, with almost nobody making that case clearly).
It's a big deal in this country, even for people who don't follow politics closely, to conclude that the President broke the law and is still breaking it. A very big deal. And it would be a lot bigger if the ostensible opposition party wasn't so disgustingly eager to help him out of this. But this scandal is far from over.
Er, I know I shouldn't be feeding the trolls (you sure do have a fine collection there Glenn), so bart and gedaliya, avert your eyes for a minute...
ReplyDeleteOkay?
I just gotta say that "What slump" is pretty much the funniest thing I've seen in weeks (I'm a big "Young Frankenstein" fan, and "What hump?" is one of my favorite lines from that movie).
Also, it's amusing that bart wants us to believe that the WH comm office would disapprove of calling republican opponents of the DPW deal xenophobes, since they've been pushing that line pretty hard themselves.
Quick. Interview with Howard Dean coming up on CNN in the next few minutes. Let's see what he says to determine if he is really with us on this issue of Presidential illegal actions. It's now about 7:30 EST.
ReplyDeleteFeingold has earned his keep. He is my top choice for '08 at the moment.
ReplyDeleteGlenn Greenwald writes:
ReplyDeleteIt's a big deal in this country, even for people who don't follow politics closely, to conclude that the President broke the law and is still breaking it. A very big deal.
Right. And that's why no Democrat of any stature or influence is pushing for impeachment. If it's such a "big deal," why haven't Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, Dean, Reid, Leahy, or anyone else (except the fever-swamp fringe leftists like Conyers) called for impeachment?
f it's such a "big deal," why haven't Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, Dean, Reid, Leahy, or anyone else ... called for impeachment?
ReplyDeleteDuh!
Gedaliya, tell me you can't figure this out for yourself>
Okay, you do seem clueless...
Because the democrats don't control either house and they will be wasting their time!
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI have completely skipped over the standard back-and-forth here. I know all I need to know about the scandal.
I just posted because I wanted you to know that I have spent an hour today emailing my friends in Maine telling them to call senators and tell all their friends to do so as well.
Your screeds are brilliant, thorough and convincing, but I have some meta advice for you: I think you could push people harder to actually get involved, and make the blog touch on that more directly.
Here are some suggestions:
a) Tell everyone who performs concrete action to post or email and let you know about it. Put that number in a counter on your site.
b). Create a thread every day for people to post their stories about trying to get in touch with their senators in the critical states.
Glenn, your ideas for direct action are very good. You have the right instinct to be more than a simple observer. I suggest that you can do more with your blog to increase the ratio of eyeballs viewing the site to steps taken.
PS: if you can't take these steps, maybe someone else can?
Howard Dean. Certainly not as bad as Bush by a long shot, but not in tempo with what's happening. Never once addressed the NSA issues or mentioned the Rule of Law.
ReplyDeleteHe's likeable, articulate, and doing his job, but his job is to get Democrats elected, and not to help restore this country to a Constitutional Democracy.
If he enables Democrats to take over Congress only to be followed by a Hillary Clinton presidency, we are RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED FROM. Maybe worse.
If Hillary isn't part of the power elite and military industrial complex, I'm Mother Teresa.
Meanwhile, Bill Clinton gives talks to Governers about how to fight obesity. He ranks that as more important than the fact that the Rule of Law is starving, close to death.
Howard Dean is no Paul Craig Roberts. He's not even Al Gore.
Gotta go call Senators in Maine now, as you all could help out by doing. Go to VichyDems for phone numbers.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDeleteNonsense...the economy is booming. Low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, rising housing values, rising tax revenues at all levels of government. It is impossible to imagine a better economy.
I only know what I see around me. My wife is one of those who has quit jobs only to move up by finding better ones. She left HP a couple years ago when they offered some good early retirement incentives, deciding she was ready to once again, try something new. Long story short, 3 years later she's going back to school. 3 Years! the only jobs available are at WalMart. At least we have 3 to choose from around here.
I would gladly pay the tax rate I paid under Clinton if I could make the money I was making then. More, even. I've discovered another right-wing myth--one I used to ascribe to--that lower taxes create jobs. What i've figured out is that when we balance the budget, the American economy becomes the envy of the world. I had so many people from around the world approach me in the 90s for opportunites to buy into America, I couldn't keep up. I lived along the Canadian border in Washington State, and worked with folks to develop business plans around various technologies. When Bush took over and taxes went down and the deficit went up, all anybody wanted to buy into was our debt. Actual business ventures have disappeared. This is a very basic economic truth I hope to see politicians start to realize. The old Republican saw about is bogus.
Piffle. The surpluses are being gobbled up by the war expenditures, the prescription drug program (a middle class entitlement), and those 10,000 earmarks that we conservatives are so mad at Bush for not vetoing. They are not going "to the rich" at all. That is just plain silly.
As I recall, when I first started hearing about huge tax cuts from Bush, the #s I heard were in the hundreds of billions. I couldn't believe it. If we can't afford to make our schools the best in the world, we can't afford tax cuts to the tune of hundreds of billions. So what does Rove do? Ups the # into the TRILLIONS! made the first figures seem downright reasonable. Then congress folded and went ahead with the trillions anyway. Insanity. I've seen the distribution graphs. so, I'm sure, have you. We gave trillions away to make millionaires richer. We can't afford to house, feed and clothe everybody because it would cost billions. Trillions for bigger swimming pools we can afford. Don't even claim the rich spent their money putting peole to work. Starting in the 80s when they got the first big tax cuts they sterted the trend that continues to this day--they spend the money buying other businesses. The stock market loves it, but it doesn't make jobs. If anything it now sends jobs overseas when the new business decides to streamline (to meet the needs of the "new economy.") The idea that the rich would take their tax break out and build a new factory was BS to begin with. It gave them a folksy way of demanding we give them all the money they want. And Bush came along like Santa. Must be nice to live in that stratum where the economy is booming.
I won't bother with your other claims. The war in Iraq is going exactly how we all know it's going. The NSA scandal is the most bizarre power-grab by a President in our history. And with each passing day more Americans are seeing through the veil you help Rove put between tthem and the truth.
I don't know who pays you, or how much, but if someone made the kind of claims about me that someone here made about you, and they weren't true, I'd set them straight very quickly. I'd demand they show the proof, and absolve them of any liability.
I know you think you're helping your cause by posting here, but the toothpaste is out of the tube. If I found myself making the kinds of arguments you do, I'd reconsider my position. LOL is overused and usually untrue, but when I read your posts, I actually laugh out loud at times. Who are folks gonna believe, you, or their own lying eyes.
I think I'll take the advice of the people who've been reading this site longer than I have and remember only to read your posts when I want a good laugh.
"White House Never Investigated If Dubai Company Has Al Qaeda Ties..."
ReplyDeleteHeadline on Huffington Post.
We have entered the Theater of the Absurd.
WTF?
I wrote to Sen. George Allen (R-VA) about the wiretaps and he (well -- a staffer) wrote me back the usual pap about our vile enemy. But he also mentioned that "federal courts, including four Circuit courts, have ruled in favor of the President’s inherent Constitutional authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence."
ReplyDeleteAnybody know where this is coming from? I asked for the citations (and pointed out that warrantless searches and warrantless surveillance are not entirely the same animal) but expect he will take a while to get back to me.
Anybody know where this is coming from?
ReplyDeleteThey're all cases which pre-date the enactment of FISA - meaning before it was a criminal offense to eavesdrop on Americans without a warrant.
No court has ever said that a President can eavesdrop on Americans in the face of a criminal statute prohibiting such conduct. As Glenn has pointed out time and again, that's what it means to live under the rule of law.
We gave trillions away to make millionaires richer.
ReplyDeleteCorrection. You didn't give a penny of your or your neighbors' money away. That's a bizarre way to look at it. The money that people earn is their money, not yours. They are simply being slightly less soaked with tax cuts.
You seem to think that allowing people to keep some of what they earn is government "giving it" away. It was never government's to begin with.
Because of progressive taxation, the rich get soaked in this country. Between federal, state and city taxes, most pay half their salaries in taxes. The middle class gets soaked too. The poor lead dismal lives. A profligate, wasteful government will sink all boats.
Tax cuts and incentives are not the issue. The massive spending, most of which is stolen to go into the pockets of corrupt politicians, their cronies, favored contractors, interest groups, the military industrial complex, etc. is the problem. The inept bungling of a corrupt, self dealing Keystone Cops government is the problem.
But the biggest problem by far is that the Rule of Law will become a footnote in American history unless the people speak up now and hold the Adminstration accountable for their flagrant violations of both law and decency.
The tone in the comments is deteriorating! I was pleased when I first started reading to find a blog where commenters generally refrained from calling each other names and trading insults. Sadly, most of the name calling seems to be liberals insulting conservatives. I say this as a liberal. Can't we have discourse? Can't we make our best cases to each other without insults? Are you so hot headed you can't read this and stay calm? If you can't handle it, I suggest you quit reading the comments. I want to see what the other side thinks. I want to engage in dialogue. If you want a one-sided discussion, there are plenty of other blogs for this.
ReplyDeleteI got this from Crooks and Liars. Does this say it all, or what? I wish I could make this my logo.
ReplyDeleteThe criminal incompetence, the skewed priorities, the bald cronyism, the relentless dishonesty and hypocrisy, the lawless abuses, the authoritarian tendencies, and the diplomatic arrogance. The outrages are legion and constant.
I want to engage in dialogue. If you want a one-sided discussion, there are plenty of other blogs for this.
ReplyDeleteDon't want one-sided discussions, just don't want to wear out my mouse wheel by constantly skipping over the same talking points and the stupid responses people make, as if each and every piece of troll shit needs to be "refuted."
Happy to have dialog -- its just a dialog when the same people post the same crap and then idiots and morons derail the entire thread by allowing the trolls to repeat their lie and talking points over and over and over and over an over and over and over...
And if you think you have any special insight -- that telling people to just let the trolls go on and on and on and on and on...
I just have one thing to say...
I AM NOT YOUR MONKEY!
He doesn't address the problem of a President who claims that his Article II powers as commander-in-chief during wartime override any attempt to impeach him or defund his killing schemes.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't address that problem because THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT, NOT grant the President any exceptional or special "commander-in-chief during wartime powers" in fact the Constitution grants no special "wartime powers" to any branch of the government.
Again, THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONAL OR SPECIAL "WARTIME POWERS" FOR THE PRESIDENT GRANTED ANYWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTUION. NONE.
He doesn't address that problem because THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT, NOT grant the President any exceptional or special "commander-in-chief during wartime powers" in fact the Constitution grants no special "wartime powers" to any branch of the government.
ReplyDeleteIt does if Bush says it does. That's what this "unitary executive power" is all about. If he's right (and that question will only be answered if Congress impeaches and convicts him and he says "Bring it on!"), then the Constitution is, as Bush has reportedly said, "Just a piece of paper."
-- Basharov
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWheel mouse: 8
Bart: 0
For someone supposedly "ignoring" me, you seem to be keeping pretty good track of my posts...
Its sort of like having a stalking fan.
I post the comment below which appears on the confirmthem.com site. Don't go there unless you have a strong heart.
ReplyDeleteThe hosts are conservative lawyers concerned with the nomination on all levels, especially the SC, of Federalist Society judges who are anti-abortion.
Of the hundreds of comments there in any given week, not one person has expressed the slightest concern with the breakdown of the Rule of Law, the abuses of the President, the NSA scandal, or any of the issues which dominate the thinking on this site.
It's really a startling and frightened look into the heart of what drives these Bushco followers, who are almost entirely supportive of the Republican Party because they want Federalist Society judges sitting on the bench.
To a man, they seem to think that Republicans will pick up seats in both the House and Senate in the mid-terms, but a few think if they lose the House, it will be a good thing and pose no problem, as it will secure a 2008 Republican President.
I actually don't think they are Bush cultists. They are Bork cultists.
3)I secretly hope that the Democrats, while losing seats in the Senate, recapture the House. There aren’t many negatives, as I don’t seem much of Bush’s agenda going anywhere at this point, and any crap they produce can be blocked in the Senate or by the President. And there’s a huge plus in having Nancy Pelosi be the Speaker of the House. I would love to see a few State-of-the-Union addresses featuring Bush, Cheney, and Pelosi. Heck, if that happens–and they nominate Hillary, Republicans will enjoy a landslide in ‘08–even in the Senate.
Do any of you think Utah will ever be a state involved in the Roots Project? I just got a call from an old friend, former Republican, who has turned against Bushco with a vengeance. She knows all sort of important people there who would be willing to get involved as would she. Or is that state hopeless? She says its solidly Republican.
ReplyDeleteWheel mouse: 9
ReplyDeleteBart: 0
Wheel mouse: 7
ReplyDeleteGetalifa: 0
But they all look alike in the dark, don't they, which is why we need some bright lights and new faces to save the day.
ReplyDeleteBill Clinton helped Dubai on ports deal
Last updated: March 1 2006 23:50
Bill Clinton, former US president, advised top officials from Dubai two weeks ago on how to address growing US concerns over the acquisition of five US container terminals by DP World.
It came even as his wife, Senator Hillary Clinton, was leading efforts to derail the deal.
Mr. Clinton, who this week called the United Arab Emirates a “good ally to America”, advised Dubai’s leaders to propose a 45-day delay to allow for an intensive investigation of the acquisition, according to his spokesman.
On Sunday, DP World agreed with the White House to undertake the lengthy review, a move which has assuaged some of the opposition from the US Congress.
However, Mrs. Clinton remains a leading voice against the deal, and this week proposed legislation to block it, arguing that the US could not afford to “surrender our port operations to foreign governments”.
Mr Clinton’s contact with Dubai on the issue underscores the relationship he has developed with the United Arab Emirates since leaving office. In 2002, he was paid $300,000 (€252,000) to address a summit in Dubai.
Over a quarter of a million dollars to give a speech? What was that "payback" for?
And Hillary Clinton proposed legislation, but never went through with that.
Whores, whores, whores.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"Nonsense...the economy is booming. Low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, rising housing values, rising tax revenues at all levels of government. It is impossible to imagine a better economy."
Only if you live in the beltway which is obviously on another planet do you believe that.
The time is coming soon when the fallacies that have driven this country into the ground will become too obvious for even you to ignore.
A trade deficit of 3/4 of a trillion dollars last year, a 4 trillion current account deficit, budget deficits as far as the eye into the future. The assets of the country being sold off to the highest bidder. All the bad things that are going to happen have been forestalled temporarily by sleight of hand, and smoke and mirrors, but the time to pay the piper is coming soon.
Bush to Katrina: Bring it on!
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1675984
Except:
Linked by secure video, Bush's bravado on Aug. 29 starkly contrasts with the dire warnings his disaster chief and a cacophony of federal, state and local officials provided during the four days before the storm.
How anyone could stand up for this guy is just beyond me. If I had voted for this guy I'd have trouble looking at myself in the mirror. If I was still defending him, my only hope is that a loved one would increase my meds 'cause you either have to be in deep denial or downright delusional if you can't see what's happening here.
I don't think the country can take this for another 3 years. I'm going to pick up Brad Delong's banner:
Impeach George Bush! Impeach Dick Cheney! Do it now!
Finally! Something relevant on VC amidst all the cartoon controversy and Islam bashing.
ReplyDeleteHere's Orin Kerr on Gonzalez's letter:
[Orin Kerr, March 1, 2006 at 6:23pm]
More Details (and More Speculation) on the NSA Surveillance Program:
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has sent a letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee following up on his testimony about the NSA domestic surveillance program. The new letter adds a few details and corrects a few potential misimpressions from the AG's live testimony. Among the more interesting tidbits: The NSA surveillance program was authorized by the President very soon after 9/11. Specifically, it had already been authorized by the time the President signed the Patriot Act into law on October 26, 2001.
Also pretty interesting: The Gonzales letter gives a very strong hint that the initial legal justification for the NSA program within the Executive Branch was mostly a strong Article II claim of inherent power, and that the AUMF argument that the Administration is relying on now did not provide the primary legal basis for the program when it was enacted. See pages 5-6. Given that we now know the NSA program was approved by late October 2001, it seems at least possible (depending on how you read the letter) that the program may have been approved before the AUMF was even passed. That would have required really fast work, as the AUMF was passed about a week after 9/11, but it's at least a possibility.
What changed that explains the current primary reliance on the AUMF argument? One plausible answer is the Supreme Court's June 2004 decision in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. Most of the Hamdi opinions are hard to reconcile with the Administration's broader Article II claims. In addition, Justice O'Connor's plurality opinion offered a relatively broad interpretation of the AUMF, making the AUMF arguments more plausible (if, in my mind, ultimately unpersuasive). The shift in legal ground may also explain why the scope of the NSA program and the arguments being made in favor of it don't match very well: It seems that the Administration's arguments in recent weeks weren't the major arguments DOJ was relying on when the program was designed and approved.
I wish I had the time to watch the whole Gonzales testimony again.
ReplyDeleteRemember when he was passed a memo by an aid fairly early in his testimony? And there was speculation that his staff member sitting behind him who passed him that memo had been contacted by White House lawyers?
I have always thought that it was because he told a lie, and was
instructed to backtrack on that to "re-clarify" his position.
That "lie" was probably not so long before that memo was passed.
But I don't have the time now to review the whole thing. I hope someone does.
This latest letter from Gonzales really exposes what a slimy outfit this is.
I agree with David Shaughnessy's post. Glenn is doing vital work and we all have to support him. Each link in the chain is important.
ReplyDeleteBut life being what it is, it'll probably be something else which brings the house down.
Personally, I still think it's going to be the Port deal. The majority of people still think that this deal can be scuttled in the next 45 days. When they find out it isn't, hell's going to break loose.
That's unless HoudiniCo conjures up a big enough distraction, like
"al Queda" or "Iran" taking down the Empire State Building.
GLENN:
ReplyDeleteHearings Transcript:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/06/AR2006020600931.html
never mind. that link was wrong.
ReplyDeleteIf the Senate Judiciary Committee's website isn't offering them, nobody is, publicly anyway.
But if they don't come out soon, you should ask the CATO institute scholar who testified. He'd be sympathetic.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWheel mouse: 8
Bart: 0
For someone supposedly "ignoring" me, you seem to be keeping pretty good track of my posts...
Its sort of like having a stalking fan.
And I'm a different person, with a wheel mouse.
Wheel mouse b: 8 (I count this reply)
Bart: 0
Bart:
ReplyDeleteYou know, I was determined to get through a comments section without even stooping to argue with you, and here I go in for another pointless swing at the bag....
I can't help myself, because you have undercut your own rationale so clearly and obviously.
"Article I, Section 8 refers to enacting regulations like the UCMJ to govern the personal conduct and discipline of military members. It has nothing to do with making command decisions."
So this is Congress' power to regulate the conduct of members of the military in all things non-wiretapping? Like, they can ban all forms of cruel and inhumane treatment of detainees - that's perfectly constitutional - but they can't ban wiretapping? Like they did? In 1978?
It's absurd. And it's far worse than that when you consider the other layers of equally valid discreditations of this theory.
What you don't get, willfully refuse to get, is that when the loci are U.S. Citizens on U.S. soil, not proven to be members of any international terrorist organization in a court of law, this is not a command decision.
The President is not and can never have, in the form of government called a republic, powers of war, law-ignoring powers, vis-a-vis his own citizens. His powers as commander-in-chief end where US citizenship begins. The powers he has from there are defined by law, period. You can quote snippets of the constitution and nitpick that principle to death, but it's the foundational principle of the document, as well as of modern Western civilization.
There are other contradictions that are more obvious - like the idea that any law can be disregarded based on one's opinions of one's constitutional powers, and lacking a specific ruling from the Supreme Court invalidating that law - but this contradiction is the most essential of them all.
Bart, if you came right out and said, "the president can break any law he wants, as long as it's to keep us safe from terrorists, it's okay by me.", I'd be in equal disagreement, but I'd respect you more. You'd be seeing into your own mentality clearly. The tortured web you've woven to hold onto the idea that GWB's actions resemble any sort of normal executive behavior in the USA is depressing to watch. Obvious hacks like gedaliya, don't even register with me, but it's depressing that you can both seem to genuinely care about your country and twist its laws with such a lack of intellectual honesty.
This is bad news and will be a major deterrent to getting the public behind the effort to get to the bottom of the NSA scandal. I sniff Karl Rove's pudgy little hand in this, and probably Albert Gonzales' too.
ReplyDeleteSaudi Group Alleges Wiretapping by U.S.
Defunct Charity's Suit Details Eavesdropping
By Carol D. Leonnig and Mary Beth Sheridan
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, March 2, 2006; A01
Documents cited in federal court by a defunct Islamic charity may provide the first detailed evidence of U.S. residents being spied upon by President Bush's secret eavesdropping program, according to the organization's lawsuit and a source familiar with the case.
The al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, a Saudi organization that once operated in Portland, Ore., filed a description of classified government records in a lawsuit Tuesday and immediately asked a judge for a private review.
According to a source familiar with the case, the records indicate that the National Security Agency intercepted several conversations in March and April 2004 between al-Haramain's director, who was in Saudi Arabia, and two U.S. citizens in Washington who were working as lawyers for the organization.
The government intercepted the conversations without court permission and in violation of the law, al-Haramain asserts in its lawsuit. It contends that eavesdropping on the conversations bypassed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the 1978 law that requires the government to show probable cause that a U.S. resident is an agent of a terrorist group or foreign government and to obtain a warrant from the secret FISA court before monitoring that person's calls.
Experts on FISA, while emphasizing that they are unfamiliar with the specifics of the al-Haramain case, said they question whether a FISA judge would agree to allow surveillance of conversations between U.S. lawyers and their client under the general circumstances described in the lawsuit.
In October 2001, Bush ordered the NSA to begin monitoring some telephone calls and e-mails of U.S. residents and contacts abroad if one party was suspected to have links to terrorism. The government has said that FISA did not allow it to move quickly enough to track suspected terrorists after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
Several targets of government terrorism prosecutions have challenged the warrantless eavesdropping in courts nationwide since news reports in December revealed the existence of the secret surveillance program. Most of those challenges have centered on suspicion that prosecutors used information from warrantless wiretaps to build cases in terrorism investigations.
This lawsuit appears to be the first to cite the government's own documents of intercepted conversations and e-mails as the reason to suspect NSA surveillance. The government has acknowledged that it targeted Iyman Faris, who pleaded guilty in 2003 to plotting to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, for surveillance under the NSA program. Several convicted members of a group described by prosecutors as Virginia jihad network have said they believe they were targets of surveillance. The government has said it either has no evidence to support the allegation or is still investigating.
Yesterday, Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said authorities will review al-Haramain's filing. He declined to comment further.
The lawsuit says that a director of al-Haramain, Suliman al-Buthe, once operated the nonprofit group in Ashland, Ore., but relocated to Saudi Arabia because of U.S. government pressure.
The Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control froze the foundation's U.S. assets in February 2004, pending an investigation, and designated it a terrorist organization in September 2004, citing ties to Osama bin Laden. Al-Haramain was indicted in February 2005 on charges of conspiring to defraud the United States in connection with a scheme to funnel money to Chechen fighters. The charges were later dropped because the Oregon branch of the organization had shut down.
The lawsuit contends that al-Buthe's conversations with people in the United States were illegally intercepted. In May 2004, the suit says, government officials provided al-Buthe -- apparently by accident -- copies of conversations he had with attorneys Wendell Belew and Asim Ghafoor.
Later in 2004, the FBI demanded the records back, according to a source familiar with the case.
Tom Nelson, an attorney for al-Haramain who filed the suit, declined yesterday to confirm the existence of any classified records or tangible evidence buttressing the suit.
However, court records show, Nelson filed a motion to place material under seal as part of the suit Tuesday, and made a formal request to the judge overseeing the case to review the unspecified documents privately.
Those familiar with secret government codes might note the name of the attorney for the plaintiff:
Tho MAS Nel SON
That says it all.
"'For someone supposedly "ignoring" me, you seem to be keeping pretty good track of my posts...
ReplyDeleteIts sort of like having a stalking fan.'
And I'm a different person, with a wheel mouse.
Wheel mouse b: 8 (I count this reply)
Bart: 0"
Anon, I absolutely love the "Collapse comments" feature. When the comments are collapsed, only the name of the poster appears and you don't even have to ignore what's written, because it's not there. THAT is magically delicious. Therefore, I am assuming the first part of your post is from the Bartster since I literally don't read what he posts.
In his defense (oh shit, am I really going to defend him? well, sort of...), a criminal law attorney is used to representing clients when the facts, the judge, the press, the cops, the jury are all lined up against the best interests of the defendant. (Get that cash up front, right, Bart?) Similarly, the facts, the judicial branch, the executive branch, the press and U.S. citizens are lining up in opposition to the best interests of his beloved leader. Like any criminal law attorney would (and should) do on his client's behalf, he is throwing everything against the wall, hoping something sticks. While that may make for zealous advocacy, it is not constructive to this Blog community. In this environment, it is actually destructive, which I surmise is his intent.
Fortunately for the Barticle, this is not a court:
Judge: Counselor, you've gone over that, please move to your next argument.
Judge: Counselor, I said to move to your next argument.
Judge: Counselor, I've asked you twice now to move to your next argument, do you have any cause to show why I should not hold you in contempt?
Judge: Counselor, I find you in contempt of court. Bailiff, please take Bart into custody.
His arguments are a waste of my time, stupidly repetitive and repetitively stupid. But, honestly, he doesn't have much in the way of facts or law to work with.
This article will blow you away.
ReplyDeleteLet's assume this article is true, for purposes of argument.
That would mean that what we are up against is not only a lawless, imperial Presidency enabled by a somulent, corrupt, weak Congress, but a theocratic religious cabal now on the Supreme Court of the United States containing Opus Dei members who are guided by a religious philosphy which aligns itself with neoconservative fascist doctrines.
What worse could happen to us?
http://www.counterpunch.org/carmichael01302006.html
a little rant by the always disturbing Ben Shapiro in which he advocates that the Republican Congress enact legislation rendering illegal various statements made by Al Gore, Howard Dean, and John Kerry (among others), and that under this legislation, any American citizen be imprisoned for sedition if they utter such statements which are critical of the Leader and his actions. Seriously.
ReplyDeleteSo writes Glenn on his NSA scandal blog. This is the first time I noticed that post.
I have a question for the respected, humane, serious comment writers here.
Am I just losing it? Am I childishly overreactive?
When I read statements like that, I get so excited that I literally cannot function. I can't work, I can't play, I can't do anything. I am just frozen with rage and fear.
Does this happen to anyone else?
I really can't believe this is all happening. It seems like I have plunged into a nightmare world in which the country has literally gone crazy. That someone could even think something like that, much less write it in a public forum, is something my mind just has trouble handling.
But Glenn is able to say Ben Stein is "disturbing" and move on.
Why can't I?
He's insane. There's no other explanation:
ReplyDeleteBUSH: You know, it's interesting, you said that one of the things that we love doing is to invite our buddies up from Texas. And I think about the time we had Jones, Procter and Selee . These are guys we grew up with in Midland, Texas. They are down to earth, you know, they have no agenda, except being with their friends Laura and George.
VARGAS: They call you George?
BUSH: No, they call me Mr. President.
VARGAS: I was going to say…
BUSH: They probably don't want to call me Mr. President, but they do call me Mr. President. And we sit up there in the White House. First of all, it's a great joy to see their joy about being here. It's a fantastic experience for people to be able to come here.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteAm I just losing it? Am I childishly overreactive?
Nope, it's just that we have all fallen down the rabbit hole and the mad hatter is in charge.
:)
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHe's insane. There's no other explanation:
Do you remember when Condi Rice was talking about not wanting the next smoking gun to come in the form of a mushroom cloud?
Well, actually she transposed the last two words and really meant a cloud of mushrooms. Magic mushrooms which they apparently have been consuming in mass quantities in the White House.
:)
Anonymous posted from confirmthem.com
ReplyDelete3)I secretly hope that the Democrats, while losing seats in the Senate, recapture the House. There aren’t many negatives, as I don’t seem much of Bush’s agenda going anywhere at this point, and any crap they produce can be blocked in the Senate or by the President. And there’s a huge plus in having Nancy Pelosi be the Speaker of the House. I would love to see a few State-of-the-Union addresses featuring Bush, Cheney, and Pelosi. Heck, if that happens–and they nominate Hillary, Republicans will enjoy a landslide in ‘08–even in the Senate.
Ah yes, but the House impeaches and if they do the Senate will have to conduct a trial. :)
Excerpt from article below:
ReplyDeleteAmerica has become a rogue nation, flying blind, guided only by ignorance and hubris. A terrible catastrophe awaits.
January 28 / 29, 2006
Polls Show Many Americans are Simply Dumber Than Bush
Blind Ignorance
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
Two recent polls.... indicate why Bush is getting away with impeachable offenses. Half of the US population is incapable of acquiring, processing and understanding information.
Much of the problem is the media itself, which serves as a disinformation agency for the Bush administration. Fox "News" and right-wing talk radio are the worst, but with propagandistic outlets setting the standard for truth and patriotism, all of the media is affected to some degree.
Despite the media's failure, about half the population has managed to discern that the US invasion of Iraq has not made them safer and that the Bush administration's assault on civil liberties is not a necessary component of the war on terror. The problem, thus, lies with the absence of due diligence on the part of the other half of the population....
Why does any American think that spying without a warrant has any more effect in reducing the threat of terrorism than spying with a warrant? The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which Bush is disobeying, requires the executive to obtain from a secret panel of federal judges a warrant for spying on Americans. The purpose of the law is to prevent a president from spying for partisan political reasons. The law permits the president to spy first (for 72 hours) and then come to the court for permission. As the court meets in secret, spying without a warrant is no more effective in reducing the threat of terrorism than spying with a warrant.
Instead of explaining this basic truth, the media has played along with the Bush administration and formulated the question as a trade-off between civil liberties and protection from terrorists. This formulation is false and nonsensical. Why does the media enable the Bush administration to escape accountability for illegal behavior by putting false and misleading choices before the people?.....
It is extraordinary that anyone would think Americans are safer as a result of Bush invading two Muslim countries and constantly threatening two more with military attack. The invasions and threats have caused a dramatic swing in Muslim sentiment away from the US.
Prior to Bush's invasion of Iraq, a large majority of Muslims had a favorable opinion of America. Now only about 5 percent do.
A number of US commanders in Iraq and many Middle East experts have told the American public that the three year-old war in Iraq is serving both to recruit and to train terrorists for al Qaeda, which has grown many times its former size. Moreover, the US military has concluded that al Qaeda has succeeded in having its members elected to the new Iraqi government.
We have seen similar developments both in Egypt and in Pakistan. In the recent Egyptian elections, the radical Muslim Brotherhood, despite being suppressed by the Egyptian government, won a large number of seats. In Pakistan elements friendly or neutral toward al Qaeda control about half of the government. In Iraq, Bush's invasion has replaced secular Sunnis with Islamist Shia allied with Iran.
And now with the triumph of Hamas in the Palestinian election, we see the total failure of Bush's Middle Eastern policy. Bush has succeeded in displacing secular moderates from Middle Eastern governments and replacing them with Islamic extremists. It boggles the mind that this disastrous result makes Americans feel safer!
What does it say for democracy that half of the American population is unable to draw a rational conclusion from unambiguous facts?
Americans share this disability with the Bush administration.
According to news reports, the Bush administration is stunned by the election victory of the radical Islamist Hamas Party, which swept the US-financed Fatah Party from office. Why is the Bush administration astonished?
The Bush administration is astonished because it stupidly believes that hundreds of millions of Muslims should be grateful that the US has interfered in their internal affairs for 60 years, setting up colonies and puppet rulers to suppress their aspirations and to achieve, instead, purposes of the US government.
Americans need desperately to understand that 95 percent of all Muslim terrorists in the world were created in the past three years by Bush's invasion of Iraq.
Americans need desperately to comprehend that if Bush attacks Iran and Syria, as he intends, terrorism will explode, and American civil liberties will disappear into a thirty year war that will bankrupt the United States.
The total lack of rationality and competence in the White House and the inability of half of the US population to acquire and understand information are far larger threats to Americans than terrorism.
America has become a rogue nation, flying blind, guided only by ignorance and hubris. A terrible catastrophe awaits.
--Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com
Gris lobo:
ReplyDeleteThe time is coming soon...
All the bad things that are going to happen have been forestalled temporarily by sleight of hand, and smoke and mirrors, but the time to pay the piper is coming soon.
What, precisely, is "coming soon"? A recession? A depression? apocalypse? The end of the world?
What are "all these bad things"?
Us pessimist are predicting a bad recession and high inflation. It won't be the end of the world, but it won't be much fun either. What makes me mad is that it is preventable, but our gov. doesn't seem to be that worried. Maybe they know something I don't, that is always possible.
ReplyDeleteI am expecting something similar to what happened to Argentina a few years back. They were printing way too much money, like we are, and it caught up with them. Argentina survived, though, and is doing ok. I'm not sure if the large size difference of our countries' economies will affect the dynamics of the currency crash, though.
Anyway, that's what economic conservatives are expecting. Not the "end of the world", but problems that are serious enough without getting hyperbolic about it.
glasnost said...
ReplyDeleteBart:
"Article I, Section 8 refers to enacting regulations like the UCMJ to govern the personal conduct and discipline of military members. It has nothing to do with making command decisions."
So this is Congress' power to regulate the conduct of members of the military in all things non-wiretapping?
No. I didn't say that at all. The vast majority of military matters involve command decisions - combat, logistics, transportation, air support, naval support, space support as well as intelligence gathering.
Congress is limited to regulations of the conduct, order and discipline of the services. That power may not be shoe horned into making a command decision on who, when, where and how to target for intelligence gathering more than Congress can make the command decision about where, when and how to conduct an naval invasion like D-Day.
What you don't get, willfully refuse to get, is that when the loci are U.S. Citizens on U.S. soil, not proven to be members of any international terrorist organization in a court of law, this is not a command decision.
You has mistated the legal question raised by the NSA program by parroting Dem talking points.
Once again, the courts have held that the President has Article II powers to conduct intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States, whether citizens or alien.
For example, Mr. Clinton properly used this power to conduct warrantless searches of the home of American citizen and Soviet agent, Aldrich Ames.
In our case, I have yet to see proof that this program targeted any native American citizens. The people bringing suit are foreigners or foreign immigrants.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102585.html
The powers he has from there are defined by law, period.
I completely agree and have provided you with the pertinent articles of the Constitution and the on point case law which establishes the President's power and limits Congress' power on this issue.
In return, you give me talking points.
In return, Glenn and some of the other attorneys can only quote a steel plant seizure case where Congress clearly had the Constitutional power to regulate property seizures.
You opponents cannot cite any of Congress' enumerated powers which give them the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering or give them the power to amend the constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
You opponents cannot cite any case law creating a power unmentioned in the Constitution which gives Congress the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering.
In short, despite several hundred posts on this site, you opponants do not have anything remotely resembling a winning legal case for your theory of an Imperial Congress.
However, this has nothing at all to do with the law, does it?
You opponents were nowhere to be heard when Ms. Gorelick laid out these same powers before Congress on behalf of Mr. Clinton.
This is simply more partisan Bush hating wearing the ill fitting garb of legal argument.
The avalanche of bad news for Bush continues, most recently his gross incompetence and lying as demonstrated by the Katrina video. Not surprisingly, defection from those in the GOP also continues, as John Derbyshire states yesterday at The Corner:
ReplyDeleteTalking last night with a friend, also Brit-born, who came here in 1970. He's a conservative, both economic and social; got into low-level political activism, did grunt work for the Nixon campaign in '72. He:
"A Republican president and a Republican Congress--both houses! We could only dream of it back then. And yet, after all, what has it got us? Spending out of control, open borders, Wilsonism all over the bloody world, congressmen's pockets stuffed with lobbyist dollars, huge dysfunctional govt bureacracies springing up all over the place, sucking in public money to finance their stupid turf fights..."
All right, anecdotal. I read my email, though, and I assume my colleagues do, too. My friend isn't alone. By no means.
Law-breaking will be more widely added to the list, soon enough.
Bart keeps it up with: You opponents cannot cite any of Congress' enumerated powers which give them the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering or give them the power to amend the constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
ReplyDeleteYou opponents cannot cite any case law creating a power unmentioned in the Constitution which gives Congress the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering.
Youngstown does not, on its own terms, apply merely to the seizure of steel mills. Justice Jacksons's Opinion therein -- adopted by the SCOTUS some time ago as the proper Youngstown analytical framework and recently so employed by the justices in Hamdi -- applies here, as well.
Some time ago I excerpted from Justice Thomas's Hamdi dissent, in which he excplicitly affirmed that Congress has authority to legislate in the area of national security. He discussed Youngsotwn and its progeny, and strongly hinted that he would have ruled with the majority to grant procedural protections to a U.S. citizen captured on foreign soil fighting against us, if Congress were to extend such protections. Hamdi, it will be noted, was not a case involving seizure of a steel mill or any other private property.
Cetrtainly if Congress may legislate in the area of procedural rights for citizens taking up arms against us on foreign battlefields, it may legislate in the area of domestic eavesdropping, including in the national security context. And the only people who firmly insist the SCOTUS would disagree are a handful of blinded Bush supporters.
But some of them really know it, too, hence Andy McCarthy's insistence that the NSA illegalities should never make it before a federal court, and John Hinderaker's insistence that Jackson's Opinion is silly and sloppy. Let them, please, make such arguments in briefs.
You are a genius Glenn.
ReplyDeleteThis idea of yours to target members of the Committee, SOOO doable.
Great, just great.
thank you
No. I didn't say that at all. The vast majority of military matters involve command decisions - combat, logistics, transportation, air support, naval support, space support as well as intelligence gathering.
ReplyDeleteCongress is limited to regulations of the conduct, order and discipline of the services. That power may not be shoe horned into making a command decision on who, when, where and how to target for intelligence gathering more than Congress can make the command decision about where, when and how to conduct an naval invasion like D-Day.
You ignored me when I asked you this before, so I'll ask you this again. This distinction that you're drawing between so-called "command" decisions and "regulations of the conduct, order and discipline of the services" -- where does it come from? Surely not the framers' original intent.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDeleteGris lobo:
The time is coming soon...
What, precisely, is "coming soon"? A recession? A depression? apocalypse? The end of the world?
What are "all these bad things"?
You'll see soon, if not before Bush gets out of office shortly thereafter. I predicted the recession in 2000 about 18 months before Bush was elected. This will be much worse.
gris lobo:
ReplyDeleteYou'll see soon...
What's going to bring about this recession? Are consumers going to stop spending? How about business? Will there be high inflation? A market downturn? A housing downturn?
We have a $12 trillion dollar economy growing steady at 3-4% a year. What is going to slow it down?
Gedalifa, hate to awaken you to this, but we are a debtor country with a more than enormous deficit. You then factor in peak oil, an intellectually incurious weak mined leader (Bush or Cheney take your pick) , a rubber stamp congress, an American public addicted to consumption and debt and it's pretty easy for most-excluding Bush Cultists- to see that we're in deep shit.
ReplyDeleteI've found it's not really worth arguing with Bush apologists. Besides being generally uninformed-as most Faux News enthusiasts are-they are no better than any other cult members in being unable to see anything outside of a narrow perspective defined by their guru-in this case a little unaccomplished man whose only talent is having been born into the right family. They are immune to logic and reason. The Bush fanaticists-Gedalyia, and Bart included-are little better than Moonies or Scientologists.
We can only hope that the damage these cultists accomplish isn't irreparable.
Hypatia said...
ReplyDeleteBart keeps it up with: You opponents cannot cite any of Congress' enumerated powers which give them the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering or give them the power to amend the constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
You opponents cannot cite any case law creating a power unmentioned in the Constitution which gives Congress the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering.
Youngstown does not, on its own terms, apply merely to the seizure of steel mills. Justice Jacksons's Opinion therein -- adopted by the SCOTUS some time ago as the proper Youngstown analytical framework and recently so employed by the justices in Hamdi -- applies here, as well.
The Jackson concurrence in Young applies to situations where Congress shares Constitutional authority over and area with the President. For example, in Young, Congress had clear authority to regulate the government seizure of private property, while the President was really stretching his authority as Commander in Chief to seize the mills on the theory that the supplies were vital for the war effort. Justice Jackson set up a balancing test for such cases and the President lost in Young.
In contrast, you cannot cite any of Congress' enumerated powers which give them the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering. The President has plenary authority in this area and there is no application for the Young balancing test.
At the Volkh blog, I discussed this with one of the professors who wrote Congress in opposition to the NSA program using the Young balancing test.
He argued that the necessary and proper clause provided that authority.
In response, I noted that the necessary and proper clause is only an enabling provision which empowers Congress to pass statutes to enforce other substantive powers in the Constitution. For example, the President cannot exercise his Article II powers to gather intelligence until Congress passes a statute creating the agencies which will perform the gathering.
I further noted that the necessary and proper clause was never intended to grant a substantive power to Congress to pass any law which it thought was necessary and proper. I offered quotes from the Federalist Papers and other commentators at the time of the ratification of the Constitution expressly rejecting this reading of the clause.
The professor declined to reply to my argument, just as I have never received any reply here.
Some time ago I excerpted from Justice Thomas's Hamdi dissent, in which he excplicitly affirmed that Congress has authority to legislate in the area of national security. He discussed Youngsotwn and its progeny, and strongly hinted that he would have ruled with the majority to grant procedural protections to a U.S. citizen captured on foreign soil fighting against us, if Congress were to extend such protections. Hamdi, it will be noted, was not a case involving seizure of a steel mill or any other private property.
I agree with Justice Thomas (who is one of my favorite justices). Congress has several enumerated powers over foreign policy and has the power to set judicial procedural protections for US citizens accused of crimes. However, once again, Congress has no constitutional power which gives them the military command authority over the means and methods of intelligence gathering or any other incident of military command.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletet.s. said...
ReplyDeleteBart: No. I didn't say that at all. The vast majority of military matters involve command decisions - combat, logistics, transportation, air support, naval support, space support as well as intelligence gathering.
Bart: Congress is limited to regulations of the conduct, order and discipline of the services. That power may not be shoe horned into making a command decision on who, when, where and how to target for intelligence gathering more than Congress can make the command decision about where, when and how to conduct an naval invasion like D-Day.
You ignored me when I asked you this before, so I'll ask you this again. This distinction that you're drawing between so-called "command" decisions and "regulations of the conduct, order and discipline of the services" -- where does it come from? Surely not the framers' original intent.
I subscribe to the Scalia school of textualism - the Constitution means what it says.
The Constitution names the President alone as CiC and gives Congress the power to regulate the conduct of military members.
The only way to harmonize those two provisions is to conclude that the Constitution did not intend Congress' power to regulate the conduct of military members to apply to command decisions. To hold otherwise would render the CiC designation a nullity.
I subscribe to the Scalia school of textualism - the Constitution means what it says.
ReplyDeleteMuch like "Bible literalists", so-called "strict constructionists" are actually only strict when it suits their purposes, and never otherwise.
The Constitution names the President alone as CiC and gives Congress the power to regulate the conduct of military members.
ReplyDeleteThe only way to harmonize those two provisions is to conclude that the Constitution did not intend Congress' power to regulate the conduct of military members to apply to command decisions. To hold otherwise would render the CiC designation a nullity.
Like Scalia on his bad days, you are reading the result you like into the text.
So lets go back to the text of Article I, Section 8, which you keep twisting. Congress gets "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces."
Now, it could not be more obvious that in making these rules -- and in making necessary and proper laws -- Congress will constrain the decisions to be made by the President as CIC. For example, if Congress decides to make a rule that women can serve in combat as helicopter pilots but not as (e.g.) combat infantrymen, that will limit the CIC from (e.g.) ordering women into battle as combat infantrymen. Likewise, if Congress "make[s] Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water," as envisioned elsewhere in Article I, Section 8, then the President as CIC will have a more limited set of choices to make when commanding the Army and Navy to make such captures.
So you cannot say of domestic eavesdropping, "well, that's a command function, so Congress cannot say anything about it." The distinction you are trying to make is both without any basis in the text of the Constitution, and it collapses in any event.
Why does the Pentagon accept Congress's authority to limit the combat roles women serve in?
And since we're talking about the text of the Constitution now, what do you make of the Fourth Amendment? It says, "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause." It doesn't add, "except in cases involving national security, where the power of the President is plenary." And to the extent that Article II and the Fourth Amendment are in some tension, the latter amendment would have to control, no?
to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
ReplyDeleteArticle II section 2 of the US Constitution:
"Section 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session."
Nothing in there about conducting surveilance, or the President having the authority to violate the 4th amendment at will.
Amendment 10 to the US Constitution:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Since the Constitution does not delegate the power to ignore the law to the President, and the "steel plant seizure case" (which you ignore) established that the President does not have the authority to ignore the law even when it may be a matter of National Security and you have yet to show where in the Constitution the Executive is given the power to violate the 4th amendment, or ignore the law, or conduct surveillance as he wishes, then you are wrong.
Try reading the constitution, and the relevant laws and court decisions instead of accusing others of "repeating democrat talking points" or "hating Bush" when your ignorance of the issue at hand is the problem.
...an intellectually incurious weak mined leader
ReplyDeleteHint: When you call someone stupid try not to make a spelling mistake. It also helps to wait until the spasms are a bit less intense before typing.
Bart continues to engage in rank deceit:I agree with Justice Thomas (who is one of my favorite justices). Congress has several enumerated powers over foreign policy and has the power to set judicial procedural protections for US citizens accused of crimes.
ReplyDeleteNo, no, lying Bart. Mr. Hamdi was not accused of a crime, and Justice Thomas was not holding forth on what protections Congress may legislate in the criminal context. Rather, Thomas explicitly addressed Congress and its power in the national security context and said Congress had power in that area, along w/ the Executive. But because Congress had not legislated protections for such as Mr. Hamdi, Thomas did not join the majority.
But I understand why you pretend to miss the point. If even Clarence Thomas allows for congressional legislation in a national security context -- involving detention of a citizen caught on a foreign field of combat -- it is absurd to think he and a majority would not uphold congressional legislation in the area of domestic, national security surveillance. I know it, you know it, and so do partisan pro-Bush lawyers who pretend otherwise.
I have now decided you are a troll, and add you to my ignore list. I believe you are a lawyer, and can read and understand the case law, including Thomas's Hamdi dissent, and only trollishness explains your misdirection and faux failure to comprehend.
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteThe power is in the wheel. All Hail the Wheel Mouse!
gedaliya said...
ReplyDeletegris lobo:
You'll see soon...
What's going to bring about this recession? Are consumers going to stop spending? How about business? Will there be high inflation? A market downturn? A housing downturn?
We have a $12 trillion dollar economy growing steady at 3-4% a year. What is going to slow it down?
You are ignoring the fact that in the last quarter of 2005 we only grew at around 1%
Do you know what 70% of the U.S. economy is based on? Consumer spending. And yes the consumer is going to stop spending. Actually they stopped spending during the 2000 recession which was stimulated by making an offer hard pressed consumers couldn't refuse. Lower interest rates and home refinancing that allowed the homeowner to take a 2 month vacation on their payments. And they could refinance every two months so in effect they could have gone a whole year without making any house payments. Of course there was a price to be paid for this, the lender fees which actually left them in more debt than when they started.
Last year was the first year since the great depression that we had a negative savings rate which indicates that the consumer is once again in trouble. Through borrowing, use of credit cards, or digging into savings.
The fact is the U.S. has been spending money like a drunken sailor and borrowing like a gambling addict running off to the local loan shark every week to pay off his bookie.
When the rest of the world decides to quit lending us money which I believe will be not too far in the future the dollar will severely devalue which will make all those cheap foreign products that the free traders have been pushing as being so good for us much more expensive. Normally an economist would say, no big problem because that will make our products more competitive in oveseas markets stimulating employment and balancing everything out. Except for one small glitch this time, we don't make much of anything. Know what our main exports are? Various forms of scrap material and soybeans.
There is more, but I have to go out for a minute, I'll be back though to finish this up.
You'll be happy to know that the next segment talks about Clinton and how I believe that history will show him to be the biggest con man that ever lived, the one that began the selling of America.
I'd like to add on to anonymous here:
ReplyDeleteIts also been recently established that (a) real wages and earnings have stagnated and (b) household incomes have actually begun to decline.
I leave it to anyone with common sense to suss out what that means for our consumer-driven economy.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDelete"I'd like to add on to anonymous here:
Its also been recently established that (a) real wages and earnings have stagnated and (b) household incomes have actually begun to decline.
I leave it to anyone with common sense to suss out what that means for our consumer-driven economy."
You are absolutely right about that and it one more small piece of the puzzle.
For Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteSorry but it took longer than I thought to do the stuff that needed to be done.
First let me answer your question about business. The nature of business has changed in the U.S. Corporations headquarter here because 70% of them pay "0" taxes. But a larger and larger percentage of them produce little if anything in the U.S. although they all want to sell here. So when corporations do well that doesn't necessarily translate into job growth. In fact it often doesn't. And when corporations do things like upgrade their IT equipment, that you would think that would stimulate job growth here, it doesn't. It doesn't because 90% of all computer components come out of southeast asia. Regardless of whether it has a Dell or a HP name on it. Money is transferred from X corporation upgrading their IT to say Dell but the U.S. worker is bypassed in the process.
It was Clinton and a Democratic congress that passed NAFTA which was the real beginning of our downfall. The Democrats did it because they wanted to lift the world out of poverty. Nice idea but completely unworkable for a variety of reasons. 1. The world is too damn big for us to lift up by ouselves. 1 /1/2 bil in China, and another 1 bil in India just for starters. IF we gave them every job we have it wouldn't even make the tiniest dent in their standard of living 2. Businesses are not instruments of social change. They exist solely to make a profit and increase shareholder value. NAFTA which was touted as a win win because it would lift Mexico out of poverty, create a market for our goods, and put an end to illegal immigration was doomed from the beginning. As soon as corporations realized that they didn't need to raise wages because there were way more workers than they could use, they simply didn't. In fact wages have fallen in Mexico since NAFTA was started.
But lets get to the scam Clinton pulled Remember all of the trade agreements that were inked during Clinton's 8 years? NAFTA, the Carribean Basin Initiative, the African opportunity act, etc. Remember how the economy seemed to continue to expand and large numbers of jobs were created? It was built on a house of cards. Let me explain why in easy simple terms. Let's say you own a business and you do business with ten other businesses on a regular basis every year. Let's say that you have negotiated some bad deals with them though and although you sell each one of them $500 worth of your widgets every year you end up buying $1000 of their gidgets during that same time period. You realize you are losing money every year and you realize you have to expand and make more money so that you won't go broke. So you set out and you negotiate deals with ten more companies. But you make the same mistake you made the first time and while you double your sales you also double your outgo. From $5000 a year in sales to $10,000 but from $10,000 a year in expenses to $20,000 a year. You have actually made your problem worse rather than solving it. But on the surface it looks good. You have to hire more employees and build a new building to handle the increased sales but it is all built on a house of cards that will collapse, now even more quickly than before.
And that is basically what happened during Clinton's term. Trade at any cost.
Bush hasn't done anything to help the situation. He has basically kept things from collapsing by using the Reagon economic formula which is to throw federal dollars at it through defense spending, wars are also generally good for the economy except for the budget deficits they inevitably create. In addition he has inked more trade deals, (looks good on the surface but is rotten underneath), given tax cuts which raise the deficit even more when they don't create jobs, and manipulated the mortgage lending market to give consumers spending money.
As I said in my earlier post, last year there was negative U.S. saving for the first time since the great depression, the trade deficit was 3/4 of a trillion dollars, budget deficits as far as the eye can see, a current account deficit of 4 trillion dollars, there was a decline in real wages, the last quarter economic growth was anemic to put it mildly, and I read an analysis that in fact no net gain in jobs has been created.
Let me add in two last items. The unemployment rate is not accurate because it doesn't take into account the following factors. 1. the number of people who have exhausted their benefits (six months) are not counted. 2. In the same category those that have given up looking for work are not counted. 3. Those that were employed full time and have settled for part time work are counted as employed. and 4. Those that were working for $15 an hour in a factory that have now taken a $7 an hour job at Wal Mart are counted as employed even though their buying power is severely diminished to say the least.
Throw in the last monkey wrench; the baby boomers are getting ready to retire and they will expect to draw social security after having been forced to pay into it all their lives and IMO the recipe for disaster is there. The question isn't if but when.
Greetings,
ReplyDeleteI have a remedial question. Could someone please take a moment and define what state of war we are in? I constantly hear "wartime" and "war on terror" in the media and from the White House as the justification for all the Bush administration's intelligence activities and military policy but somewhere along the way I lost sight of when the war legally started as well as the current status of "war." For example, I thought at one time in the spring of 2004 the administration had claimed the war with Iraq was over.
Thanks
Okay. So I will briefly answer my own question that lies at the end of this long thread:
ReplyDeleteThe US began the military invasion of Iraq on March 19, 2003 with the approval of the United States Congress and Senate but without the authority of the United Nations. The US's decision to go to war was in direct opposition to UN articles:
Article 2.4 of the UN Charter which states: “All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force.” and Article 51d that holds that even in self-defense, a state may not go to war “until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.”
The UN Security Council was established in 1945 with the active involvement of the United States in order to prevent future wars among nations. The UN Security Council from its inception disallowed preemptive action and the use of force without UN Secuity Council approval. Moreover, it required all nations to establish a case for self-defence with the UN Security Council before using military force.
The US was unable to provide the proper justifications for military force against Iraq to garner support from the UN Security Council and as a result the Bush Administration in direct defiance of the UN Security Council articles proceeded to declare war on Iraq and invade the country on March 19, 2003.
On May 1, 2003 President Bush officially announced an end to the Iraq War on the USS Abraham Lincoln with a large "Mission Accomplished Banner" waving behind the President as he gave his speech.
My question is: If the war is official declared to be over, is there any legal basis at all to the expressions currently used by the Bush Administration, members of the Senate and Congress and the media such as "Wartime," "In Times of War,
"War on Terror" or this purely an ideological strategy like the so-called, "Cold War?" If it is purely an ideological useage, how can the Bush Administration legally use the designation "Wartime" as the justification of domestic and military policies such as the warrantless NSA wiretapping, etc.?