There are a couple of Kos diaries claiming that the Intelligence Committee has voted not to hold hearings. According to VMCKimmey:
Just saw this on CNN. Looks like Snowe and Hagel caved! The compromise "Sell Out" creates a new subcommittee to oversee the NSA domestic spying. The NSA program must be approved every 45 days by the new subcommittee and there is a five year sunset clause to make the whole program go away. This is what we got instead of an investigation, instead of holding this criminal administration accountable for their crimes.
I am sure there will be much more confirmation and details and much more to say about this. I will update this post as more information is available.
Nobody who has lived outside of a cave for the last five years could possibly be surprised by any of this. One of the reason we are at the point we're at in our country -- where we have a President who not only breaks the law but claims he has the right to do so, while the media barely finds any of it worthy of much attention -- is because the Congress has completely abdicated its responsibilities at the altar of cult-like obedience to White House decrees. That's just one of the many rotted roots in our government.
I doubt that many people who want to ensure that the Administration is held accountable for their law-breaking were placing their hopes in the likes of those principle-free, easily manipulated "independent Republicans" such as Olympia Snowe and Chuck Hagel. If this scandal is to be resolved how it ought to be, it won't be because of anything they do.
* * * * *
David Shaughnessy reports the same thing - that CNN reports that the Intelligence Committee voted against holding hearings.
Just as a reminder, here is an excerpt of the December 21, 2005 oh-so-resolute statement issued by Sen. Snowe demanding NSA hearings:
U.S. Senator Olympia J. Snowe (R-ME) and a bipartisan group of Senate Intelligence Committee members today called for a joint inquiry by the Senate Judiciary and Intelligence Committees into the President’s authorization of domestic electronic surveillance of U.S. citizens.
“Revelations that the U.S. government has conducted domestic electronic surveillance without express legal authority indeed warrants Congressional examination. I believe the Congress – as a coequal branch of government – must immediately and expeditiously review the use of this practice,” said Snowe.
And here are excerpts from the letter she signed on the same date along with that GOP maverick Sen. Hagel (same link):
We write to express our profound concern about recent revelations that the United States Government may have engaged in domestic electronic surveillance without appropriate legal authority. These allegations, which the President, at least in part, confirmed this weekend require immediate inquiry and action by the Senate.
We respectfully request that the Select Committee on Intelligence and the Committee on the Judiciary, which share jurisdiction and oversight of this issue, jointly undertake an inquiry into the facts and law surrounding these allegations. The overlapping jurisdiction of these two Committees is particularly critical where civil liberties and the rule of law hang in the balance. . .
It is critical that Congress determine, as quickly as possible, exactly what collection activities were authorized, what were actually undertaken, how many names and numbers were involved over what period, and what was the asserted legal authority for such activities. In sum, we must determine the facts. . . .
We have extensively debated these issues. At no time, to our knowledge, did any Administration representative ask the Congress to consider amending existing law to permit electronic surveillance of suspected terrorists without a warrant such as outlined in the New York Times article.
We strongly believe that the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees should immediately seek to answer the factual and legal questions which surround these revelations, and recommend appropriate action to the Senate.
Powerful, huh? That's really standing up to the Administration. Guess they changed their mind and decided that their concern wasn't that "profound" after all, and that it wasn't all that "critical" to find out "exactly what collection activities were authorized, what were actually undertaken, how many names and numbers were involved over what period."
Could our government be any more broken?
UPDATE: I had some Internet connection problems the last couple hours which prevented me from adding updates to the post until now. I'll have much more on this tomorrow. In the meantime, Jane Hamsher has a thorough run-down of analysis and commentary here; a detailed Knight-Ridder report on what occurred is here; a Washington Post article here; and a press release issued by Sen. Rockefeller's office is here. And Emptywheel has some interesting analysis along with an argument for appointing Sen. Feingold to the newly created sub-committee to purportedly oversee the Administration's eavesdropping activities.
Whether the Administration is held accountable for its actions will ultimately be determined not by whether the GOP-controlled Intelligence Committee votes to hold hearings, but will be almost exclusively a function of whether the public demands accountability and consequences.
As I said yesterday, an affirmative vote was always a "I'll believe it when I see it" proposition. There was also the (unanswered) question of just how meaningful any hearings that might have been held would be in the first place. Even with Hagel and Snowe agreeing, could we seriously expect them to support a real, in-depth, serious investigation into this administration?
ReplyDeleteSigh.
So, what's next?
I think it makes the most methodological sense to assume that everything will go against what is right, so long as republicans are in power. No surprises.
ReplyDeleteDescartes made a similar methodological choice - so we'd be in good company!
"I will suppose, then, not that Deity, who is sovereignly good and the fountain of truth, but that some malignant demon, who is at once exceedingly potent and deceitful, has employed all his artifice to deceive me; I will suppose that the sky, the air, the earth, colors, figures, sounds, and all external things, are nothing better than the illusions of dreams..."
(Conclusion of the First Meditation)
sigh. I suppose I can still hold on to my hope that the courts will check Bush... We should all hope for a good outcome on Hamdan v. Rumsfeld.
ReplyDeleteDave
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteAre there "national" journalists/media outlets (e.g. Brian Williams) that can be lobbied like our members of congress to cover this story in depth?
If the media gets a avalanche of right wing talking points spewed at them from the riight wing sound machine; can we not balance this with our own machine.
I would think that we need to counter there storyline with our own and we have to do it quickly and forcefully just like they do.
And, is it possible to get "national" exposure of interviews with senators forcing them to explain themselves when they vote for things like this?
The cliff we are charging at is alot closer then many of us realize.
Let me emphasize that while I'm disappointed here, I think we've really hit a tripping point here.
ReplyDeleteThe President is down to his absolute base in support; no-one really believes anything he says any more (outside the 34% of the country that will forever support him, no matter his crimes), no-one really trusts him, and his every pet project from Social Security privatization to Iraq have or are collapsing into the disaster every project was foretold to be.
That said, anyone have any comments or thoughts on the next step? Short of a mass mirgration to Mars or hoping the Inner Party will excise the "Jones, Aaronson and Rutherford" option that is?
Not only is this not surprising, but don't blame just the "independent republicans". There are very few "independent" Senators in the whole system. Just look at the Patriot Act vote to see that the whole bunch will goose-step to the march of the white house. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00029
ReplyDeleteI just called Senator Snowe's office and they are still not willing to confirm this.
ReplyDeleteI think the next step is to call every member of the committee who voted not to investigate this ... and tell them they have only delayed the inevitable.
This will eventually be investigated as more and more Americans -- including that most necessary of creatures, the heretofore silent whistleblower -- realize that the system is hopelessly corrupt and that legislative oversight is broken.
I believe that there are many people working within the administration who are disturbed by the actions of the president and his minions. I believe that they were hoping against hope for an investigation so that they would be able to tell what they know. And I believe that some of them will have the courage to step forward even without the protection offered by a congressional investigation.
I pretty much have to believe this or I don't think I could go on fighting.
They disgust me.
ReplyDeleteI could tell we had lost when Frist proposed the line item bill on the Senate floor during the meeting. He must have know then. He had such a smirk, such a shit-eating smirk that I wanted to slap his face.
They disgust me.
Yet another reason why it was important to win the Presidential election in 2004. We knew this kind of sh!t was gonna be coming down, and now we've gotta hang on to our life preservers if we want to stay alive politically.
ReplyDeleteThings could be worse.
Things are going to get worse.
I wouldn't really be suprised at anything at this point. I envision an amendment to do away with Presidential term-limits. The blogs and the Dems will all say it can't happen, and then it'll happen, and then the blogs and the Dems will all say, "How could that happen?"
This is so hideous! But not so unexpected.
ReplyDeleteBut it's also why as important as lobbying these Congressional folks has been -- it it more important to WIN SEATs in the 2006 election and gain a DEM majority instead!!
There can be NO Oversight nor Appropriate Investigations on this and many isssues until this happens. William Rivers Pitt has a FAB article about some *Shoe Leather* efforts to get out the Voters. This one of the best hopes for a change to these illegal acts.
As well as the lawsuits ongoing at this point. We shall see where those go.
Bart - if you're still around - I've been thinking about some of your issues and responses here. But I’ve got a question:
Forget for a minute the back and forths arguments we've had on both side of the NSA issue and **imagine** that this has gotten the appropriate judicial review (as far as necessary to resolve the questions posed of the AUMF, FISA, ART II Powers and the 4th Amendment) – AND – the answer turns out to be as some of us and Glenn have argued?
If you are correct, then it’s a “No harm, No foul” - the administration did nothing wrong, end of story.
But what IF it ever is adjudicated and WE are correct? Then what is your response and what should this mean? What are the implications and the consequences to this adminstration and Bush which should result – IF we are correct?
Things will get worse. The good news is that they don't even have to write the bill to give the president unlimited powers, merely to translate it. We're reliving history, here, folks. URL's don't show up to well in this, so just look up "enabling act" in wikipedia.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act
Where was the Democratic Party leadership in all this? We let them get away because Democrats once again caved in to pressure of being labeled unpatriotic, instead of the whole Dem party putting intense pressure on the committee for an investigation.
ReplyDeleteSad day.
What could be more depressing? Oh, yeah, DeLay could win his primary election today. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteThis is looking more and more appealing, especially today.
Is is it my imagination, or are we actually calling the Republican caucus a collection of sociopaths?
ReplyDeleteWell, if the shoe fits.
That said, and given the utter lack of morals or principles they've demonstrated...what are our options against these clowns?
SHIT!
ReplyDelete(I disagree with the statement that a coverup is necessary for a mortal scandal, but agree that continuous media/public attention is necessary. A.L. points out that it is necessary [but not happening] to link criminal acts into an ongoing enterprise to avoid scandal de jour disengagement. Peter Daou over in Salon points out that the Republications push and push and push a simple and devestating meme.)
Just what I thought. The only thing which surprises me is that they didn't drag out the run up to the vote for a few more weeks, so Redstate and Moveon could use that period to raise alot of money for the parties.
ReplyDeleteHere's Paul Craig Roberts on the central problem:
We have already fallen dangerously far when the U.S. Department of Justice produces justifications for torture of detainees held without charges or access to attorneys, when Congress and the judiciary acquiesce to the executive disregarding statutory law, and when wars of aggression are started on the basis of lies and false accusations. We now read of Halliburton awarded a $350 million contract to build detention camps in the United States. Bush says "you are with me or against me." Rumsfeld and Cheney already speak of "fifth columnists" and enemies of the regime.
You know who Snowe and Hagel are? They're Hillary Clinton and John McCain. There'll all the same.
I am not making one more fucking phone call. I just realized that to do so is delusional.
I shall return to politics if there is an impeachment, or a genuine movement for a Third Party.
Until then, it's all a waste of time.
OK. I'm a defeatist. But in this case, a defeatist is a realist. I was serious when I said it's all about the torture. When a civilization gets to the point where its government is going to build gulags to torture people and gives the contract to a Presidential crony, and you don't see people storming the White House in protest, please do not tell me that civilization is worth saving. It's not.
Eat, drink and be merry. That's all that's left.
And you know what? Deep in his heart, I think Paul Craig Roberts is resigned to the fact that it's all over but the shouting.
I am shocked, shocked that Snowe and Hagel caved.
ReplyDeleteWell, okay, I'll admit, I was actually kind of hoping one of them might hang tough. But I certainly thought it a bit of a longshot. They must have been under absolutely insane pressure on this one.
I wonder how long that press release will remain up on Sen. Snowe's site. Not something I think she would want to remind people of in light of her double cross today.
ReplyDeleteadam:
ReplyDeleteWell, okay, I'll admit, I was actually kind of hoping one of them might hang tough. But I certainly thought it a bit of a longshot. They must have been under absolutely insane pressure on this one.
Republicans know what happens if you go agaist Der Fuehrer. Not to mention, it's become "If we don't hang together, we'll all hang separately" time for them....
This is hardly the first time the so-called "moderates" have caved when the rubber hit the street (actually, perhaps the only instance I know of where there was a successful dissent was in the Senate impeachment conviction vote).
What say we get rid of the myth of "moderate Republicans" and start pushing the actual truth: They're the Borg.
Cheers,
Oh my god. I just went blind and deaf at the same time. Can someone else tell me what all the outraged Democrats who I am sure are on TV right now howling about this outrage are saying? The Democratic members of the committee? You know, that great party which sticks up for Truth, Justice and the American Way. I don't hear or see them, but they MUST be out there, so someone please fill me in on what they are saying.
ReplyDeleteOr not.
PS. An interesting observation. When Lou Dobbs was just on and the committee announced its decision, Lou said "they are still talking about a compromise" or something to the effect that nothing had been decided yet.
Nobody seems to know what's going on. Not a good sign.
I think we now know at least two of the targets of the wiretapping, Snowe and Hagel.
ReplyDeleteNote that in the UK there used to be an absolute prohibition on the intelligence services wiretapping MPs. But Blair lifted it. Its such a useful way of keeping your troops in line that it is hard to imagine Bush letting Blair get that far ahead.
In reading the commentary so far, I'm wondering whether we are too focused on the moral and legal midgets otherwise known as Congress. American democracy is a beast of many political motions. Some (like the apparatchiks inside the beltway, of almost all political persuasions) are narrow but intensely focused on the short term; others, like the great unwashed public, are often diffuse and seemingly without effective reach.
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that we don't have enough levers inside the Congress. Other than McConnell and the nine others who voted vs. the Patriotraitor Act, none have any remaining moral ballast.
As often before, the great fallback is the general public, including their manifestation as voters. The level of disgust is in fact beyond what I remember during Nixon's darkest days. The futile maneuvers of congressional democrats are mere pissing in the wind. The public understands---clearly and now unwaveringly---that they have been had, in multiple ways and means. They have no focused voice, like a member of congress might, should he or she choose to use it, but they will speak with their feet. A few basic frontiers have been crossed here by Emperor Bush and his lavish court, back across which they will not be able to retreat.
No question it will get worse before it gets better. Just remember that a significant majority of people are similarly fed up, for their particular multiple reasons. There will come a point where this is effectively expressed.
Bill Cat Killer Frist is the most evil person in the world.
ReplyDeleteWhy I thought this would be any different I'll never know. They all puff up when it's an issue of focus, then they cower down when it is no longer an issue with voters.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of an old old old Steve Martin routine. He says,
"The public has a short memory. Seriously, a very short memory. I'll give you an example - remember when the earth ended? Don't you remember that? And they transported us here on the giant space-arch? And they decided not to tell the stupider people because they thought it might affect.....ooohhhh."
This was a big deal for what, six weeks?
The principles that I learned in Social Studies - the freedom, pursuit of happiness, equality, liberty....I always thought that those things were real. Maybe they're only real in books. It appears the grand experiment has failed. Humans aren't capable of anything so grand as what the Social Studies books call the America.
Aren't we coming up on some deadline as imposed by the judge who ordered the releasing of documents w/r/t the NSA domestic program?
ReplyDeleteI am glad to see Georgia of Daily Kos gets it right, at least:
ReplyDeleteThis is not just a surveillance program. This is not just data-mining. There is something much greater here beneath the surface, an action that not only runs afoul our Constitutional rights, but that undermines the very core of our democracy.
Right on, Georgia.
EWO said "Bill Cat Killer Frist is the most evil person in the world."
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe he gets third place. See my comments in the previous thread suggesting he couldn't be any higher than that.
Dave
PS I want to cry.
To Glenn -
ReplyDeleteBy your continued silence here, I'm taking it you're still chewing over these newest developments, yes?
Is is still your contention this scandal (a) still has legs, and (b) will continue to grow in the public's mind?
For the record, I myself subscribe to both (a) and (b), if only because I suspect (no evidence yet, but a strong intuitive sense) the Administration is putting the data they've collected to use already, albeit *not* for anything that might actually strengthen national security.
How many advertisers or commercial interests would pay through the nose for data about viewing or calling or web-surfing profiles?
Again, no evidence as yet, just a strong sense.
Personally, I'm just glad the semi-resident contrarians (again, yes, I know I'm being overly generous) have kept their mouths shut here so far.
Must...put....head....between....speakers....nirvana.....AC/DC.....anything to stop this pain in my head and in my throat.
ReplyDeleteSo, what do we do next? Is there any way the people can take some action (other than elections that may or may not come)? Petitions and recalls seem out of the question. How can the people demonstrate that this is not the kind of Congress we want?
ReplyDeletePersonally, I am just too discouraged that the situation is hopeless. How about if we just issue pink slips to the entire Congress? Stop paying our taxes? Have a "tea party" in every city in America?
Could our government be any more broken?
ReplyDeleteYes. When they start rounding up journalists and throwing them in jail for subversion and treason.
Yes. When they start prosecuting doctors who perform and women who receive abortions.
Yes. When they decide to launch an assault on Iran.
Yes. When the Libby trial is dismissed because he utlilized the
"North" defense.
Yes. When Bob Novk continues to walk the earth.
Yes...yes...yes...yes... over the next two years we will witness many more instances of unfettered, unchecked lawlessness by our elected officals.
It's bad right now. Very bad. But it's going to get much worse.
Georgia at Kos also gets it right when she says:
ReplyDeleteThe administration is threatening members of Congress, it is strong-arming them like never before--in short, like a cornered animal it has pulled out every last stop, every last fang and growl to dissuade Congress from investigating this matter. The inference is obvious: the more fervent the desire to cover up, the more heinous the crime.
Also, I think Georgia’s post is right on the money because it emphases that these actions were done out of weakness not strength, and while this may a be a temporary victory for the administration’s ability to threaten, it is a Pyrrhic victory at best, because it exposes what the “party” has become -- and its contempt for the Constitution and the rule of law.
This scandal is a long way from being over. The more they act like this, the more everyone knows they’ve got something to hide. The public, eventually, is going to smell the stench emanating from this. They’ve opened a door, and put on a fan, but they haven’t put out the fire, and sooner or later the smoke will be obvious to everyone.
Wow, there are some powerful quotes from Daily Kos of Paul Craig Roberts recent articles. I hadn't seen all of that.
ReplyDeleteI must say that what does warm my heart is when I see a principled Democrat who cares more about issues than about partisan politics recognize a kindred soul from another party and stress the commonality of ideas more than the political divide.
Maybe Paul Craig Roberts hasn't given up, because maybe he thinks impeachment is a real possibility!
This is Daily Kos:
nobody pulls the rug, rolls it up and proceeds to thwap shrubya upside the head with it better than Paul Craig Roberts, who has been positively excoriating the preznit at just about every turn. He's been screaming for impeachment longer than most, including many on the left.
As you might imagine, his commentary on shrubya's extralegal domestic spying, titled "A Criminal Administration," is exceptional. He blasts the obsequiousness of our Potemkin Press and lays out precisely why the spying is illegal (and unecessary) under FISA. Oh, and Hitler references are now "fair game," to quote a...ummmm...noted personality
I really think Paul Craig Roberts should be President, and what' more, I don't think there's anyone else who could be President who would get rid of fascism, the whole corrupt system, and bring back democracy. You need someone who is heroic and fearless, not a self serving hypocrite like McCain or Hillary.
Or maybe Russ Feingold could be President, and Paul Craig Roberts could be Vice President?
And they both run on a third party ticket, and tell both parties to bug off?
Maybe Bill Gates could give them a few hundred million to run, if that's legal?
After all, how scared could Bill Gates be of the powers that be?
well, we can always hope for fitzmas
ReplyDeleteONWARD! I'm going to take my disappointment & my rage outside for a good scream, then I'll be back ready for a smarter battle, a smarter plan. Even if it means taking apart this admin & those Rep's who are so ethically challenged one small piece at a time, then that is the job ahead. To Glenn & all that reside here, you are too great a gift to be wasted, tonight none of us sleep, but tomorrow, we fight again.
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteI have a question.
Why don't the dems just challenge these Illegal activities in court rather than letting the turncoat repugs rule the roost?
I am not a lawyer, but is not this appropiate?
envision an amendment to do away with Presidential term-limits.
ReplyDeleteI can see it too, they will use chimpy's unpopularity as cover -- proclaiming that it isn't for the chimpster....
They will steal enough seats in 2006 to make it happen. Then, they will eliminate Social Security, claiming the election gave them a "mandate"
Also, I think Georgia’s post is right on the money because it emphases that these actions were done out of weakness not strength, and while this may a be a temporary victory for the administration’s ability to threaten, it is a Pyrrhic victory at best, because it exposes what the “party” has become -- and its contempt for the Constitution and the rule of law.
ReplyDeleteThat could be true, but let's look at it from a slightly different perpective:
These Senators helped stop an investigation into activity that was not only in direct violation into the laws Congress set up, but are based on a theory that the White House has the right to disregard any of Congress' laws when it comes to national security. In other words, these Senators actually voted to negate their authority and render their actions on national security essentially irrelevant. This is an amazing capitulation on their part - they're literally crippling their own politial power!
But what's really incredible, and scary, about the vote is that they knuckled under to an administration that will be out of power in 3 years, and to a President who has a Nixon-level approval rating! Just what do the administration have on these Senators that they will make a vote against investigating crystal-clear lawbreaking, against their own political power, against their own stated principles, and against the polls showing support of such an investigation?
I can't speculate on exactly what's going on behind the scenes. But there's definitely some powerful forces at work behind this, and if they can get these Senators to cave on this issue against their own interest and the poll numbers, there's very little they can't do.
-L-
Ok. Will you all allow me one last rant in deference to the fact that the enormity of today's defeat has driven me over the edge?
ReplyDeleteThank you.
I have regrouped, organized my thoughts, and I see the Big Picture, I think. Nobody presently in politics can be the next President. If a box of cereal was infested by cereal bugs, would you pour out a little section which looks least infested and eat it? No.
Virtually all politicians now in office are either corrupt by nature, sell-outs, or people who someone somewhere has the goods on and they won't ever defy the power elite because they are too cowardly or don't want to relinquish their own power.
(It's possible Russ Feingold is the exception, but I don't know enough about him yet.)
If there were any principled politicians in either party who cared about what we do, we would have heard from them already. We haven't. I therefore conclude there are none. I mean, be realistic, if the current turn of events is not enough to make people scream out in protest, as PCR is doing, what's going to make them scream out? Conclusion: nothing. They don't protest because they don't really care.
It has to be someone from outside of government, like Paul Craig Roberts. I notice that there are more lefty sites quoting him and singing his praises than Republican sites. As a matter of fact, there ARE no Republican sites which like him. But there sure are a lot old school Republicans whose principles have been abandoned by this party who do like him. That's enough for a base, I think.
Also, I notice that the vast majority of the lefties who have discovered him think two things: one, forget that he is a Conservative, that's unimportant now, and two, he is reaching them more than the voices of any Bush critics from their own Democratic party.
He's like Reagan, a great communicator, and that is what is needed at a critical time like this. I mean, you reach people or you don't, right? Is there anyone here who is "reached" by Schumer or Hillary Clinton?
PCR speaks for the people of America who have been abandoned by both parties, and those people are everyone except the two party machines, and the leaders of the special interest groups who never really represent their members anyway, like NARAL and moveon, according to FDL. And what he talks about is the core set of American values, the Rule of Law, Constitutional protections of our civil liberties, and the system of government based on justice which is evaporating quickly. Wasn't he one of the first to come out so brutally against the neo-cons? You didn't have the Democratic Party do that for a simple reason. Jewish people are big donors to the Democratic Party, and most share the neo-con views, and the Democratics haven't wanted to irritate that large, wealthy consituency. That's pretty sad.
So I decided not to give up. I will occupy myself entirely with trying to get Paul Craig Roberts elected President, and will post excerpts from his articles, as they become available, on this and other sites until you are all convinced that he may be the only person who can lead us out of this mess. If someone hears of another, let me know.
The rest of you can spend your time re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and I wish you luck, because those efforts may be vital, but I am keeping my eye on the prize from now on and going for the gold.
PS. Does anyone know PCR's views on abortion?
Time for:
ReplyDeleteConstitutional Convention
So what are the guidelines here?
Karen McL said...
ReplyDeleteBart - if you're still around - I've been thinking about some of your issues and responses here. But I’ve got a question:
Forget for a minute the back and forths arguments we've had on both side of the NSA issue and **imagine** that this has gotten the appropriate judicial review (as far as necessary to resolve the questions posed of the AUMF, FISA, ART II Powers and the 4th Amendment) – AND – the answer turns out to be as some of us and Glenn have argued?
If you are correct, then it’s a “No harm, No foul” - the administration did nothing wrong, end of story.
But what IF it ever is adjudicated and WE are correct? Then what is your response and what should this mean? What are the implications and the consequences to this adminstration and Bush which should result – IF we are correct?
If the Supreme Court were to reverse 30 years of precedent at the Courts of Appeal level and enter a holding that the NSA Program falls under FISA then the President should immediately stop NSA surveillance of the al Qaeda numbers until he can get FISA changed or we decide to surrender this intelligence collection tool.
It is very unlikely that Congress, even if it were controlled by the Dems, would attempt to impeach the President for operating this program with disclosure to both Congress and the FISA court. If they proceeded against the President, Congress should also censure or remove the leadership which was briefed on the program and never took any action to stop it.
As Glenn commiserates with appropriate vitriol and razor precision, this outcome, despite our commonsense-defying and desperate hopes, was inevitable. What manner of coercion, threats, entreaties, bribes, admonishments, and heaping mendacity must the Bush Administration employ to keep its boot on the face of Congress? After all, they have the NSA, the FBI, and whatever other manner of black-ops available within their purview to dig up or manufacture evidence that puts the metaphorical gun to the head of anyone who would resist absolute compliance – all within a prescribed daedal ruse – to the grand scheme.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, one does not need to be a semiotician to read the signs amidst the extant posturing and belligerence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bolton, Bush, and their concomitant neocon think-tanks and military hard-ons preparing for an imminent attack on Iran. The American citizenry is as ignorant of the facts and as susceptible to the Bush propaganda machine on Iran as it was with Iraq; more so it would appear. Despite the fact that we actually will be in a perpetual war after that – at least one that will last into the next century - and despite the blatant hypocrisy of arming to the hilt with nuclear technology and fissile material one strategically located nation that already has nuclear weapons (although not a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty), while threatening “dire consequences” if Iran, who does not possess nuclear weapons, continues to enrich uranium for what ever their purposes may be. If the media had an ounce of responsibility (or sovereignty or courage) and laid out the facts, including who has nukes and who doesn’t, who is likely to use them and who isn’t, and attempted to reveal the true nature of the Persian culture to Americans before we vaporize them, perhaps the inevitable march to war would run into some obstacles. Unfortunately, as Glenn says,
“…we have a President who not only breaks the law but claims he has the right to do so, while the media barely finds any of it worthy of much attention…[and]
the Congress has completely abdicated its responsibilities at the altar of cult-like obedience to White House decrees. That's just one of the many rotted roots in our government.”
Reasonable outcomes are not expected, nor are they prudent.
Well, I said it before and I'll say it again. I really believe that everyone should focus their attention on the upcoming elections in November.
ReplyDeleteThe only hope of changing anything is for the Dems to take over the house or the Senate this fall.
If we don't get to the point where there can at least be some gridlock everyone is looking at 2 more years of this SSDD stuff.
I encourage everybody to work hard (myself included) to get as many Dems as possible elected this fall.
One last note that is off topic so you can ignore it if you want to.
The sale of American infrastructure goes deeper than just the port sale and even that is bigger than is being reported. In addition to the six ports mentioned there are 8 more that will be partially controlled by the UAE if the deal goes through (which I think at this point there is a 60% chance of it doing so)
It also appears that at least one toll highway and the Indianapolis airport is under foreign control.
And here I have been wondering why the dollar hasn't collapsed already, silly me.
Whatcha think is gonna happen when we run out of stuff to sell.
Reminds me of people that get broke and start going to the pawnshops to sell off their possessions one by one ubtil one day they have nothing left to sell. Sad
Fox News is reporting that the committee reached a compromise with the WH to support a Congressional oversight bill sponsored by DeWine. This bill requires the WH to fully brief a subcommittee made up of 7 members of the Senate Intel Committee on any intelligence gathering program which is not seeking FISA warrants within 45 days of the enactment of the bill or the start of the program.
ReplyDeleteThis is the Constitutional solution to this problem. Congress has and needs to exercise its oversight power.
This proposed oversight bill requires a full briefing on all non-FISA programs in closed session. This is exactly what Hagel and Snow were demanding.
BTW Folks, this was a closed session vote. Out of the sight of the leftist wing of their party, what makes you think that one or more of the Dems did not join in supporting this bill? The Dems in Congress supported this program for years before the NYT blew its cover and the Dem leftist base got all worked up. What makes you think they are not doing so now in private?
PS, before I log off and kill myself. I don't think the game plan for FDL, Glenn, versites, etc. should be calling these weak bastards anymore who are our Senators and Congressmen.
ReplyDeleteThat was probably pretty childish to being with, upon reflection. They don't give a damn what their constitutents think. They're unreachable. Let's forget them.
We have to address ourselves from now on to the American people directly, however that has to be done. I assume it would be mainly through the Internet and the Press, but it has to be done. Do you really think 80% of people (today's number used by CNN) would be so forcefully against the Port deal if it weren't for Lou Dobbs?
They wouldn't. Sure, there was widespread initial resistance to this deal, but it took Lou Dobbs to whip it into a frenzy. That's what we need.
Good night everyone. Love you all :)
I am unsurprised but stunned all the same. Snowe is I believe one of the most popular Senators in the country, but with todays vote her reputation will be greatly diminished.
ReplyDeleteHopefully this will finally put to rest the whole notion of "moderate" Republicans.
F(*&ing crooks.
Why don't the dems just challenge these Illegal activities in court rather than letting the turncoat repugs rule the roost?
ReplyDeleteGotta be kidding, they have been "rubber stamping" vitually all of chimpy's appointments to the bench. Remember, it was the repugs that shot down meyers nomination, not a dem with backbone.
Maybe ralphie was right...
Knight-Ridder confirms.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhy don't the dems just challenge these Illegal activities in court rather than letting the turncoat repugs rule the roost?
Gotta be kidding, they have been "rubber stamping" vitually all of chimpy's appointments to the bench. Remember, it was the repugs that shot down meyers nomination, not a dem with backbone.
Those Dems are continuously reelected by you folks.
I'll take you seriously if Glenn mounts a campaign to to withhold your votes for all Dems who vote for the DeWine bill. There will be many Dems voting for the bill to exercise your franchise against in the elections this fall.
How about it?
M.A. said...
ReplyDeleteBart again puts his trust totally in the wonderful protector President not to abuse the power he has grabbed...Believing that they will be "fully briefed" by an administration that had no interest in telling them the truth about the program (until they had to) would be ludicrously naive. Since I assume Snowe and Hagel aren't naive, I'll assume that they just want the whole issue to go away and leave them alone.
Really?
The WH briefed the heads of Congress and the intel committees about this program from the beginning. Not a single one claims that the NYT leak differs in any way from what they were briefed.
Does M.A. stand for MASSIVE ASS?
ReplyDeleteWe have had a relatively troll free day, like the comment board always was until about a week ago.
And you want to feed the copy and paste troll by stating the obvious that is only tangently on-topic.
With an idiot crew that cannot even hold a moderate dialog without allowing the right wing talking to control the discussion, we are lost.
People bitch about the dem part, but look who they are trying to lead....
Don't be a moron, M.A.
When our resident trolls proclaim up is down and black is white, are you going to get up on your little soapbox to explain it all?
Meanwhile, while Rome burns...
ReplyDelete"'Under President Bush, the government has expanded by 45 percent in five years,' said Brian Riedl, a federal budget analyst with the conservative Heritage Foundation. While he praised the line-item veto as a good 'common-sense' tool, Riedl said that 'there is no substitute for vetoing expensive spending bills.'
"Since the Republicans took control of Congress in 1994, the number of home-district earmarks has jumped from 4,155 valued at about $29 billion in 1994 to 14,211 worth nearly $53 billion 10 years later, according to the Congressional Research Service. Meanwhile, the Bush administration has forecast a record budget deficit for 2007 of $439 billion."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html
I like PCR too--he lives just west of here several hours away--but all the crap Bush is pulling is put on the national credit card, and at some point, there will be a payment due. I love my country, but I hope China or someone else gives it a bit of financial tough love.
Bart said:
ReplyDeleteVestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Pellentesque porttitor lobortis dolor. Sed in dolor convallis mauris vulputate malesuada. Nullam in velit a lacus varius volutpat. Nulla euismod. Cras eu felis. Morbi nisi nulla, condimentum in, sagittis ut, rutrum et, justo. Cras sit amet orci a justo tincidunt adipiscing. Proin et risus et dui bibendum iaculis. Donec posuere dui lobortis lectus consequat venenatis. Sed nibh. Phasellus venenatis, velit id pulvinar gravida, nisi eros tristique nunc, ac lobortis sem quam eu urna.
Curabitur ultrices, sem a dignissim rutrum, velit neque ultrices diam, laoreet pharetra enim quam nec nisi. Suspendisse auctor dapibus quam. Quisque posuere ante id nibh feugiat viverra. Nullam mollis, risus id ultrices molestie, justo turpis laoreet velit, a sagittis felis ante ut lacus. Sed a nulla egestas purus adipiscing eleifend. Aliquam justo dolor, volutpat ac, dictum sed, porta eu, elit. Duis quis justo non neque egestas fringilla. Aenean porta varius nisl. Suspendisse urna diam, tincidunt sed, sodales vitae, condimentum ac, eros. Nunc nisl dui, sollicitudin eget, facilisis ac, auctor mollis, tortor. Ut vitae nulla.
Morbi massa sapien, volutpat et, scelerisque vel, congue eu, neque. Vivamus vestibulum. Donec volutpat mi eu ante. Nunc nonummy. Sed ac neque sed velit egestas imperdiet. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Duis molestie, sapien vel aliquam tristique, mi magna porttitor quam, in faucibus dolor dolor id urna. Sed velit ligula, lacinia fermentum, egestas at, ornare vel, erat. Nunc sodales bibendum quam. Duis posuere leo eu tellus. Morbi sed justo sed odio auctor egestas. Nam laoreet mattis mauris. Quisque accumsan dui a leo. Praesent non nulla. Aenean fringilla congue est.
Donec sed felis. Quisque blandit erat in velit. Nunc vestibulum. Donec vel lorem et nibh cursus adipiscing. Quisque congue massa eu dolor. Phasellus vitae purus nec augue tincidunt iaculis. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Duis iaculis aliquam mauris. Mauris semper viverra nisl. Vivamus purus. Vivamus sed leo vitae tortor sodales dignissim. Sed auctor orci non nisi. Donec rhoncus diam vitae sapien.
Vestibulum neque pede, aliquam vel, accumsan a, malesuada eu, tellus. Donec vitae risus. In odio dui, eleifend at, luctus ac, porta non, ante. Quisque vitae enim at nisi sagittis porttitor. Etiam sed leo. Ut ornare turpis ac sem. Integer sem ipsum, bibendum id, accumsan vitae, luctus ut, magna. Pellentesque sed enim. Vestibulum nisl felis, tincidunt id, porta nec, blandit ac, lectus. Nam at nibh. Morbi a dui ut enim lobortis blandit. Phasellus et neque. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Nulla vestibulum mi at nisi faucibus venenatis. Proin feugiat iaculis arcu. Proin pulvinar sollicitudin mi. Nam semper, ipsum quis interdum rutrum, tortor risus aliquet lectus, vel varius metus metus non nunc. Maecenas congue, mauris sed venenatis faucibus, nulla est lobortis diam, vitae convallis nulla nibh a odio. Pellentesque orci lacus, nonummy eu, ultrices a, auctor vitae, neque. Phasellus facilisis, odio vel tristique ultrices, turpis urna cursus nibh, vel aliquam dolor ante ac magna.
Aenean lobortis, elit a aliquam ornare, dolor massa tristique sem, ut blandit enim metus a velit. Nam bibendum placerat nisl. Phasellus justo leo, scelerisque vitae, vehicula vitae, eleifend pharetra, quam. Nam pellentesque fermentum lectus. Suspendisse hendrerit facilisis felis. Aenean nonummy dui vitae dolor. Proin nunc dui, accumsan et, egestas nec, eleifend quis, ipsum. Morbi eu eros eget libero aliquam congue. Pellentesque interdum eleifend nulla. Sed tincidunt augue et metus. Suspendisse euismod justo in eros. Sed vulputate, nisl vitae bibendum molestie, magna lacus tristique tortor, lobortis scelerisque neque ipsum condimentum urna. Nullam a libero sed nulla ornare bibendum. Donec laoreet, nisl viverra suscipit luctus, diam urna interdum est, sit amet interdum nisl nisl et velit. Donec at dolor et urna ultrices porttitor. Suspendisse metus purus, lobortis in, malesuada ac, condimentum sit amet, augue.
Sed fermentum nonummy est. Sed faucibus. Donec nec nulla id nulla ullamcorper blandit. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam erat volutpat. Pellentesque sed nisl. Nulla mollis. Aliquam magna sapien, cursus at, ornare non, porta id, massa. Sed faucibus vestibulum odio. Donec dignissim metus id felis. Fusce placerat porta enim. Cras ornare nunc blandit velit. Vivamus eleifend accumsan sem. Nunc adipiscing arcu eget ante. Sed lectus tellus, imperdiet vel, consequat vel, vulputate vitae, mi. Sed venenatis est sed diam. Proin tellus tortor, ornare non, lobortis vitae, cursus vel, nisl. Nulla dignissim tincidunt felis. Nam congue felis a nisl.
Aenean hendrerit, est ut aliquet ultricies, erat enim tempor erat, sed venenatis lacus nisl at ante. Sed quam. Mauris vel dolor vitae velit placerat vestibulum. Nunc est. Suspendisse dapibus vestibulum nibh. In faucibus mauris ut mi. In vel pede eget leo luctus dictum. Nullam semper metus vel mauris. Ut at erat. Suspendisse gravida, eros eget convallis tempor, ipsum tortor egestas turpis, vitae auctor justo erat a massa. Praesent quis magna. Duis tempor. Donec tincidunt tempus dolor.
Praesent egestas diam a turpis gravida pretium. Nulla facilisi. Pellentesque vitae augue. Suspendisse commodo, dui ut laoreet sollicitudin, quam pede ultricies eros, id nonummy felis justo eu nibh. Donec sit amet nunc sit amet ipsum mattis auctor. Phasellus vitae nisl quis dolor sollicitudin gravida. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Morbi nec felis. In molestie lectus nec nulla ornare lobortis. Aenean sagittis porttitor pede. Nunc congue varius dolor. Etiam elementum commodo dui. Suspendisse id erat. Curabitur urna arcu, commodo at, facilisis ac, condimentum at, eros. Aenean accumsan, ipsum non tempor pellentesque, lectus sem tempor elit, eu rhoncus dolor metus a felis. Nam vitae mi sit amet purus tincidunt cursus.
Donec leo elit, adipiscing a, cursus sed, egestas at, arcu. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Vivamus quam. Sed est orci, sagittis vel, tempus venenatis, tristique quis, risus. Nulla facilisi. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Nulla nec nisi adipiscing tortor nonummy feugiat. Curabitur at lectus. Aliquam faucibus, massa ac mattis molestie, nulla dolor auctor mi, quis pulvinar libero elit molestie nisl. Maecenas lacinia mollis est. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; In lacinia malesuada eros. Ut euismod rhoncus ligula.
Duis id erat ac urna venenatis viverra. Praesent lobortis, neque ut vehicula iaculis, arcu pede fermentum orci, a pretium libero elit et nulla. Donec nunc nunc, luctus vitae, iaculis vel, lobortis id, elit. Cras mollis volutpat urna. Duis sit amet nibh. Phasellus placerat metus ac urna. Maecenas placerat rutrum dui. Nulla dapibus. Nulla facilisi. Sed placerat.
Ut vehicula orci in libero. Cras placerat libero quis risus. Nulla porta urna vitae est. Nulla facilisi. Sed lectus. Cras pretium est ut neque. Pellentesque ultricies convallis sem. Proin venenatis fermentum quam. Nullam porta, metus sed euismod rhoncus, tortor massa vehicula nunc, et tristique quam lectus eu lorem. Aliquam magna odio, sollicitudin nec, varius eget, luctus rhoncus, orci. Nunc in ligula.
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Nulla enim. Phasellus semper orci eget elit. Etiam pharetra venenatis nisi. Aliquam erat volutpat. Nunc cursus condimentum massa. Mauris commodo gravida ligula. Vestibulum fringilla. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Etiam suscipit sem vel sapien. Curabitur quis lectus. Sed pretium. Nullam et dui.
Vestibulum lectus. Aliquam purus arcu, laoreet in, ullamcorper quis, adipiscing a, leo. Aenean semper lobortis ligula. Donec eleifend viverra nisl. Sed vestibulum blandit nisl. Maecenas eleifend iaculis mi. Integer pede. Nam eros justo, bibendum sed, sollicitudin vitae, imperdiet sit amet, erat. Aenean aliquam mattis nisl. Nunc ullamcorper. Nullam sodales. Nunc volutpat pellentesque arcu. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Sed tortor risus, tempus tempus, placerat mattis, eleifend a, lacus. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Sed sed lectus. Nunc mattis. Nam sodales. Morbi congue molestie sapien.
Nunc molestie, nisi at ultricies ullamcorper, nibh elit sagittis enim, eget ultricies augue pede eget leo. Praesent vel sapien. Phasellus egestas quam pellentesque felis dictum nonummy. Aliquam erat volutpat. Mauris non eros. Nunc quis mi placerat mi malesuada varius. Phasellus nec risus. Donec mi est, sollicitudin ut, suscipit ac, tempus auctor, erat. Nunc sit amet tortor. Curabitur nibh felis, ornare at, condimentum a, ultrices vitae, leo. Aliquam mi erat, tempus sed, aliquet id, gravida nec, erat.
Donec venenatis. Vestibulum sed mi. Proin malesuada orci sit amet ante. Aliquam scelerisque faucibus tellus. Mauris ullamcorper diam a neque. In pharetra, mi at ullamcorper ornare, purus augue semper ante, vitae accumsan risus mi et magna. Etiam malesuada laoreet leo. Nullam pellentesque, arcu quis ultricies viverra, neque est auctor nisl, nec sollicitudin arcu ipsum et ante. Mauris non erat sit amet lacus ultricies consectetuer. Morbi ut nibh. Donec non risus. Cras consectetuer euismod lacus. Pellentesque orci pede, facilisis in, auctor sed, scelerisque non, ipsum. Integer ultrices dolor ac leo. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Duis ultricies, elit et euismod tempor, mauris nibh mollis massa, at laoreet ipsum nibh blandit urna. Praesent fermentum auctor lectus. Vestibulum egestas tellus convallis augue. Etiam ac nibh.
Ut sed odio in urna dignissim imperdiet. Aliquam mollis tempus ipsum. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Sed quis magna ac nulla suscipit rhoncus. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Sed bibendum. Nunc ut eros. Nulla id dui. Maecenas vel orci eget est feugiat tempus. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Donec consequat volutpat erat. Sed molestie fringilla orci. Pellentesque adipiscing.
Cras rutrum. Sed nonummy facilisis sapien. In ac velit. Aliquam eros erat, malesuada vel, tempus eu, condimentum eu, erat. Phasellus gravida. Ut vulputate porta lectus. Suspendisse potenti. Vestibulum vulputate. Mauris mollis quam. Nunc egestas, massa consectetuer faucibus mattis, dui ipsum laoreet nulla, non suscipit eros sapien at neque. Donec id orci nec neque volutpat laoreet. Sed vel leo et justo euismod eleifend. Nam commodo bibendum pede. Suspendisse a tellus sed pede rutrum placerat.
Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Etiam sit amet sem. Aenean lorem. Suspendisse mollis tempus nunc. Donec fermentum. Nullam ut nunc a eros vulputate sodales. Maecenas venenatis tristique tortor. Sed tellus lectus, fermentum et, mollis non, varius vel, nulla. Sed non ante vel nisl adipiscing interdum. Fusce scelerisque congue est.
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How sad. The comment boards here, like all good things, are disintegrating. Have we proven that we need a unitary comment-wiper? Can we not manage our own fate?
ReplyDeleteI’ve been reading these comments – and what has become so clear is that the ONLY answer to taking this country back from this Abysmal cliff’s edge where it teeters on the brink of a GOP induced destruction is going to be at the election boxes…and it is possible to do THAT.
ReplyDeleteBut what we have to realize is that we are playing their game of Political Wanker-Ball (and my most abject * Humble advanced apologies to Bill Watterson’s Calvin-ball comix). But that is what this IS.
It’s not even some long lost *gentleman’s politics* ["OH NO" they whine - "not the politics of *personal destruction* it's Soooo mean." --While they rip your face off with a dull butter knife] that has gone by the way-side like a discarded gum wrapper – but the entire political granite-bedrock of Rules, Laws, Governing bodies, Committees, Oversight obligations, Principles, Morality, Ethics and Duties to the Constitution...yadda yadda.
There isn’t anything (ANYTHING) these folks are not willing to corrupt, lie, cheat, overlook, ignore, turn their backs on, or change-the-rules to keep their power.
But many of us folks believe there are still these rock-solid substrata in the political world to follow and win with. But we are stuck in a down and dirty game of Wanker-Ball where there are NO rules. And if there were any rules - they can be changed when ever these folks from the We-Say-So Company decide it.
So it’s hard to fault anyone (or the DEMS) for flinching in this unparalleled inside-out world of Wanker-Ball we are forced to play – but we must play and WIN.
All the Marbles are riding on it.
It CAN be DONE!
What principle dictated this outcome? I think it is simple, none. The admin claimed at least one thwarted attack which was more credible than the LA Library tower airliner attack or Brooklyn Bridge cutting torch attack and attributed its prevention to their courageous violation of FISA. Oppose the program and we will make you wish you were Max Cleland.
ReplyDeleteI am repelled by any calculus of human life, but 1200 American and 12,000 Iraqi lives per year paid for pipe dreams of democracy in the Middle East and none, nada, zip jeopardized to preserve the Constitution in the USA.
"taking this country back from this Abysmal cliff’s edge where it teeters on the brink of a GOP induced destruction is going to be at the election boxes…and it is possible to do THAT."
ReplyDeleteone word and a very grim prospect...
Diebold.
These Repugnicans have their hands on every pulsing vein of this country, slowly cutting off the flow, killing the very ideals and laws that make the 'idea' of the US democracy, the Republic such a wonderful thing...Dems are faaaar behind in matching this unadulterated manipulation of things you listen to, watch, absorb and influence your outlook and beliefs. But never give up the good fight, or all will be lost.
A.Political
Karen McL said...
ReplyDeleteI’ve been reading these comments – and what has become so clear is that the ONLY answer to taking this country back from this Abysmal cliff’s edge where it teeters on the brink of a GOP induced destruction is going to be at the election boxes…and it is possible to do THAT.
But what we have to realize is that we are playing their game of Political Wanker-Ball
That we are. The thing besides voting irregularities and fraud that I am sure will occur again that will make it especially difficult is the Gerrymandering. Supposedly because of it a lot of voting districts are locked up to the point that you would need "dynomite" (doing a little NSA trolling here) to dislodge an encumbent
I would suggest that everyone try to donate to Blackbox voting org, cash or mabe time if you don't have the money. There is another organization too but I don't know the name so mabe somebody can post it.
How sad. The comment boards here, like all good things, are disintegrating.
ReplyDeleteDon't know what you are talking about -- this has been a great day at UNCLAIMED TERRITORY. Until about a week ago, these boards were largely on topic and Glenn was clearly providing food for thought that "visitors" expanded on. Was a great exchange.
Then about last week, 2 trolls routinely started dumping talking points into the threads -- no problem, that is what trolls do, right?
However many of the "visitors" had to continually point out the obvious flaws in the troll's comments. Of course, the trolls are juts copying and pasting talking points into the dialog -- they don't care if they have any real relationship to the topics in the thread.
Each inane troll post resulted in a dozen or more inane replys. The trolls, seeing that they were now actually directing the thread, would come back and copy and paste more inane banter.
Over the weekend, the threads became essentially unreadable, at least in the context of the original posts on the blog.
I am grateful that the comments are almost all on-topic. Most are ignoring the trolls -- that is the way it is suppose to be. Of course, it would be nice if we didn't even have to point this out...
but guess we do...
So lament the boards today if you like, but if you expect more from this type of forum, you are looking in the wrong place for solace.
There is no read to moderate the comment sections if a few people would feel the urge to always have the "last word" with the copy and paste trolls. After all, reading the threads proves to me that our trolls cannot possibly be reading their inane posts themselves!
What's wrong with pointing this out?
You have to wonder how much money they're really getting from the WH through Karl Rove to suddenly cave like that.
ReplyDeleteWhat Ron Susskind said years ago is truer now than it was then: We're now an empire. Charles Krauthammer at the WaPo would be the first to agree.
We have no Congress, anymore. Bush has crossed the Rubicon and is making us think it's the fucking Delaware.
The thing besides voting irregularities and fraud that I am sure will occur again that will make it especially difficult is the Gerrymandering.
ReplyDeleteSpot on - but please don't overlook the power of the "wedge" issues.
They will win if they can make the 2006 and 2008 look like referendums on "gay rights" and "culture of life." Dems can win on freedom of choice in the abortion debate if they are careful, but this is important, though dangerous, territory.
The problem is that the theft of the elections is actually made possible when the repugs and MSM echo chamber start making noise about "engergizing their base," essentially admitting they do not actually represent the majority, but that their minority "turned out" in higher numbers.
The vote flipping software is much less powerful without the "engergized base" crap.
My biggest fear is that a large section of that wants change will continue to scream, "WELL WHY CAN'T WE HAVE GAYS IN THE MILITARY" and "WELL I WANT TO MARRY MY SAME SEX PARTNER!"
I am not saying these things are wrong -- they will just enable the lie of the stolen election. They did in 2004.
The gays in the military is really a losing issue -- I mean, come on. Do sensible gay men and women really want to go to iraq now? I am sure they will LOVE iran...
Divide and conquer works -- the MSM needs a meme to justify how a wildly unpopular president continues to get his way and the repugs continue to win elections.
I just pray that we can choose our battles carefully and stick to the issues that do not divide us. After all, the first step to creating a more just America will be to throw the facists out.
Of course, I know at Americablog they will say, "NO WAY!! YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TO DO!!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....
And then we will spend generations debating among ourselves how this all happened...
The thing besides voting irregularities and fraud that I am sure will occur again that will make it especially difficult is the Gerrymandering.
ReplyDeleteSpot on - but please don't overlook the power of the "wedge" issues.
They will win if they can make the 2006 and 2008 look like referendums on "gay rights" and "culture of life." Dems can win on freedom of choice in the abortion debate if they are careful, but this is important, though dangerous, territory.
The problem is that the theft of the elections is actually made possible when the repugs and MSM echo chamber start making noise about "engergizing their base," essentially admitting they do not actually represent the majority, but that their minority "turned out" in higher numbers.
The vote flipping software is much less powerful without the "engergized base" crap.
My biggest fear is that a large section of that wants change will continue to scream, "WELL WHY CAN'T WE HAVE GAYS IN THE MILITARY" and "WELL I WANT TO MARRY MY SAME SEX PARTNER!"
I am not saying these things are wrong -- they will just enable the lie of the stolen election. They did in 2004.
The gays in the military is really a losing issue -- I mean, come on. Do sensible gay men and women really want to go to iraq now? I am sure they will LOVE iran...
Divide and conquer works -- the MSM needs a meme to justify how a wildly unpopular president continues to get his way and the repugs continue to win elections.
I just pray that we can choose our battles carefully and stick to the issues that do not divide us. After all, the first step to creating a more just America will be to throw the facists out.
Of course, I know at Americablog they will say, "NO WAY!! YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TO DO!!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....
And then we will spend generations debating among ourselves how this all happened...
damn - don't know how I got the double post. I swear it only said "YOUR COMMENT HAD BEEN SAVED ONCE"
ReplyDeletesorry...
I have one suggestion.
ReplyDeleteSince the country is so geographically large, "street protests" - especially in the era of news blackouts - just don't seem to cut it anymore, if they ever really did.
But a thought has occurred to me today, perhaps in tandem with the news of the unbelievably royal treatment given Negroponte at his private "university club" on the clock and the payroll of the American people (three-hour daily "lunches" with massage and cigar in the cloistered silence of his British-wannabe club -- with his "chase" vehicles idling outside the whole time). [Managing that $44 BILLION dollar-a-year intelligence apparatus ain't such a hard gig after all, eh John? Sure beats Iraq all to heck as a posting, what?]
I think we need a new sort of street protest: one that takes place INSIDE the U.S. Capitol and House and Senate office buildings. A more focused 'spearhead' of action, that should apply pressure more effectively as a result. Groups of informed citizens taking turns CONFRONTING these s.o.b.s where they live... With video camera in tow.
Different blogs could take turns sending delegations down there to roam the halls in person, to challege any lawmakers they can find. Or to just camp out for a few days with signs, or using whatever other means the elite's police protection service lets assembled citizens use to express their opinions.
THAT would be "reality t.v." more than a few Americans would happily tune in to watch, and it just might start to convince some members of Congress that the American people have had enough, and then some.
There is another organization too but I don't know the name so mabe somebody can post it.
ReplyDeleteBradblog (http://www.bradblog.com/) has been on this topic ever since Bev Harris started to make headway. Check his blog to see the latests -- even the so-called-liberal "superblogs" rarely mention their good work (but that is another topic).
I don't know if these are the sites you had in mind, but they are worth checking:
VotersUnite.org
VoteTrustUSA.Org
But remember, it is the lie of the "energized vote" that really enables the whole scam.
Different blogs could take turns sending delegations down there to roam the halls in person, to challege any lawmakers they can find.
ReplyDeleteGood luck and LOL!!!!
The "SuperBlogs" like to proclaim about all the money they raise, but typically are "no shows" when it comes to using thier platforms as a vehicle for change.
Americablog constantly told people not to attend peace rallies and purged his comment archive of any reference to that fact.
Atrios proclaims that its not a "netroot" thing, but did talk about boycotting SD in one thread, never to mention it again.
When an automaker that if teetering towards bankrupsy wanted to pull its ads from gay magazines (they were cutting back ads in other publications too) Americablog made a big deal about it being a "gay rights thing" -- WTF, like it matters if I drive a ford or chevy....
Another superblog wants to see the democratic party run more like a corporation.... WTF, isn't that what got us here in the first place?
A popular blog that posts videos that everyone else links to will not tolerate talk about "action" on the board -- the ol' "its not a netroots thing" argument again...
Just saying..... perhaps things will change, but most blogs are ALL BLOG NO ACTION, just another version of the 101st keyboarding brigade...
As one of the resident anonymous trolls, I stated from the beginning that Bush has inherent powers with limited scope and what was missing was a special congressional committee for oversight. I am not sure the committee they chose has the knowledge and skills necessary to do a proper job but it is a start.
ReplyDeleteOK, I had to come back to report that I just read something really encouraging. I am starting to feel better. I knew there was something wrong going on when motherjones is speaking to me, a laissez faire capitalist, more that Bushco is. And that's an understatement.
ReplyDeleteNow I see what the problem is. Republicans are not the ones in office, and since there are no real Republicans there, the baser elements of Democratic Party Line Thinking have taken over, and working in hand in hand with the imposters, they have allowed our country to collapse. Come on, you know in your hearts that is true. We didn't get where we are today because the opposition party has any real gripes about the way things are going.
Here are excerpts from a post today on Democratic Underground (pretty soon I'll be going to The Cuban Daily Worker to get some solace.)
Stick with this excerpt, because the really, really encouraging thing is at the end.
Conservatives are Jumping Ship: Bush is Going Down
March 7, 2005
By Bernard Weiner, The Crisis Papers
I'm more and more convinced that it will be Republicans, many of them of the true conservative and realist kind, who effectively will do in the Bush Administration.
In this, I am reminded of the behavior of Richard Nixon. Realizing that he was fast losing his middle-class, bourgeois base, he knew when to call it quits on the Vietnam War and on his presidency after his crimes were exposed.
Unlike Nixon's crew, Bush & Co. seem willing to take the country down with them, so desperate are they to hold onto power, deplete the treasury, pay off their corporate friends, carry out their ideological revolution - and keep themselves out of the federal slammer.
The crimes of the Bush Administration are so many and varied that none of us should be surprised by anything that might happen in the coming weeks and months: Bin Laden captured or reported killed, a U.S.-Israeli air assault on Iran's nuclear facilities, a major terrorist attack inside the U.S. to be followed by martial law, the announcement of a bird-flu outbreak with the military placed in charge. I'm pretty level-headed and don't usually think in these dire terms, but these guys have backed themselves into a political corner and are desperate - and dangerous.
THE IMPLODING SCANDALS
Bush is at 34% approval rating (Cheney is at 18%!), and their scandals are blowing up in their faces: Katrina lies and incompetence; Iraq lies and incompetence; the Dubai Ports deal; GOP bribery and corruption; Libby under indictment and Rove apparently about to be; Bush claiming authority to authorize torture, spy on millions of American citizens and violate the law whenever he says "national security" is involved; Congress rebelling at being frozen out of decision-making, etc. etc. But in the face of all that, the Rovian M.O. is always to attack their foes and to hype the fright quotient.
The Administration didn't have to consider the most extreme options until recently, when a lot of wheels started falling off the Bush bus. The attacks were no longer mostly coming from liberals and Democrats; more and more, they were coming from loyal conservative Republicans, who, being apprised of the sinking poll numbers, saw the handwriting on the wall: they realized they could well lose their majorities in the House and Senate - in other words, lose their jobs and access to the spoils of power - and they started distancing themselves from the Administration.
So, rather than beating my usual drum here denouncing the high crimes and misdemeanors of the Bush Administration, I thought I'd just lay out the comments of those conservatives and let them speak for themselves. (My late friend Emile de Antonio, the documentary filmmaker, taught me a good lesson; it's always better, he pointed out, to quote what the Wall Street Journal is saying rather than quoting a hippie leftist making the same point. (When their own supporters smell the moral rot up top, the end is near.)
I'll concentrate here on Iraq and the neo-con ideologues who took this country to war, though currently the flak is also coming hot and heavy from the Right on both the domestic spying and Dubai ports scandals. (Even conservative Republican Senator Richard Shelby says Bush broke the law in the way he handled the Dubai ports contract.)
THE NEO-CONS BEHIND THE WAR
Let's begin with a reminder that the conservative establishment didn't agree from the very beginning with Bush's obsession to invade Iraq. President George H.W. Bush, who successfully organized a massive coalition to push Iraq's army out of Kuwait in the first Gulf War, warned his son privately and through his spokesmen of the dangerous consequences both of invading and occupying Iraq and of doing so without wide international support. As he said of Iraq in A World Transformed (written with Gen. Brent Scowcroft): "Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different - and perhaps barren - outcome."
Fast forward to the present, when so many Republican stalwarts are saying, in effect, that they backed the wrong horse. Their party was taken over by rightwing extremists, incompetent at that, whose reckless policies are doing great danger to the country and to the future of the once-great GOP. Here's Melinda Pillsbury-Foster, chair of the Arthur C. Pillsbury Foundation, going even beyond the war into the deeper crimes being committed against Americans' freedoms:
"Most Americans do not yet realize that a war is being waged - not against Iraq but against each of us. It is not the Republican Party that is charge in this administration but a small cadre who seized executive branch power and converted it to their own uses. Most Republicans are experiencing a deer-in-the-headlights moment right now. Their Party has been hijacked, their president has been hijacked, and they do not know what to do. I remain a registered Republican working for an effective coalition. The attack on us and on our rights has hardly begun. You don't go to the trouble of setting up this degree of control without having made plans to use it."
NEO-CON FUKUYAMA HAS SECOND THOUGHTS
(the article talks about his conversion. Personally I don't care about him, as he was insane from the git-go)
THE CHENEY-RUMSFELD CABAL
Then we go to a long-time Administration stalwart who couldn't take it any more: Lawrence Wilkerson, a retired U.S. Army colonel who was chief of staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell.
(blah blah about him. He's okay, but why didn't he speak out the day of the Powell speech at the U.N.?)
BUCKLEY BUCKLES TO REALITY
SEN. HAGEL LOWERS THE BOOM
(blah blah about Buckley's sudden "insights." He was insane from the beginning, so let's skip over him too)
Then there are key Republican senators who are willing to stick out their necks by talking truth to power about Iraq - for example, Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel, who says the U.S. is losing in Iraq and raised a parallel to an earlier conflict.
(HA HA HA. Okay, even good writers get some things wrong. Maybe he'll revise his article tomorrow.)
O'REILLY QUESTIONS STAYING IN IRAQ
(Get real. Why all this focus on mentally ill people?)
So, let's see: Bush is losing old-money Republican conservatives, GOP senators, neo-con theorists outside the Cheney-Rumsfeld insider nexus, military insiders, troops under fire in Iraq - who else can he lose? Would you believe the lunatic fringe, as symbolized by that raving Limbaugh wannabee Bill O'Reilly?
(Uh, no, but let's go on...)
GOP DISCONTENT ON NATIONAL SECURITY
Well, one could go on and on with the criticism coming from the Right - conservative former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, former Reagan Administration official Paul Craig Roberts
(editor's note: future President
of the United States---heh heh)
Congressional warhawk John Murtha, et al. The point is that the Republicans, formerly associated with a winning national-security message, are now regarded much differently by many GOP rank-and-file and politicos.
Many Representatives and Senators also deeply resent the way the Congress has been frozen out of the power loop by the Bush Administration. "We simply want to participate and aren't going to be PR flacks when they need us," Florida's conservative GOP Congressman Mark Foley said. "We all have roles. We have oversight. When you can't answer your constituents when they have legitimate questions - we can't simply do it on trust."
Scott Reed, who managed Robert Dole's 1996 presidential campaign, called the current low poll ratings for Bush and the GOP "pretty shattering," noting especially that Bush's support among Republicans fell from 83 percent to 72 percent. "The repetition of the news coming out of Iraq is wearing folks down," Reed said. "It started with women and it's spreading. It's just bad news after bad news after bad news, without any light at the end of the tunnel."
THE PRESIDENT AS DICTATOR
"Even if you're a Republican member of Congress, you don't buy the exaggerated view of the unified executive theory, in which the only part of the Constitution that matters is Article II," on presidential power, said James B. Steinberg, a dean at the University of Texas at Austin. "If you want them to be in on the landing, you have to have people there for the takeoff."
Then he talks about Trent Lott and Lindsey Graham. OK, the writer is a trusting sort. Moving on....
AND HERE COMES THE REALLY IMPORTANT, ENCOURAGING PART!!!!!
EVEN WALL ST. IS TALKING IMPEACHMENT
Now all those defections from the Bush orbit are doing great damage to the once-unified Bush & Co. juggernaut, but I've left out one key one: Wall Street. The titans of finance are agitated, even to the point of urging serious consideration of Bush's impeachment. Here's some of what Barron's Editorial Page Editor Thomas G. Donlan wrote in that establishment financial journal:
...The administration is saying the president has unlimited authority to order wiretaps in the pursuit of foreign terrorists, and that the Congress has no power to overrule him ... Perhaps they were researched in a Star Chamber? Putting the president above the Congress is an invitation to tyranny. The president has no powers except those specified in the Constitution and those enacted by law. President Bush is stretching the power of commander-in-chief of the Army and Navy by indicating that he can order the military and its agencies, such as the National Security Agency, to do whatever furthers the defense of the country from terrorists, regardless of whether actual force is involved.
Willful disregard of a law is potentially an impeachable offense. It is at least as impeachable as having a sexual escapade under the Oval Office desk and lying about it later. The members of the House Judiciary Committee who staged the impeachment of President Clinton ought to be as outraged at this situation ...
It is important to be clear that an impeachment case, if it comes to that, would not be about wiretapping, or about a possible Constitutional right not to be wiretapped. It would be about the power of Congress to set wiretapping rules by law, and it is about the obligation of the president to follow the rules in the Acts that he and his predecessors signed into law ...
THREE MORE YEARS?
So, friends, when we're down in the dumps, depressed by the fact that Bush & Co. are still in power even in the face of all their lies and bumblings and policies that result in thousands of people getting killed and maimed and tortured, let us consider that even their once-loyal rats are deserting the sinking ship of state.
The thought of nearly three more years of Bush & Co. misrule is too horrible to contemplate. So let's ratchet up the pressure, incorporate distressed GOP moderates and conservatives into the impeachment momentum, and let's send the Bush Bunker crew packing and return the country to reasonable people dedicated to a restoration of Constitutional rule of law and a realistic foreign policy. It's the least we can do for our country.
Hear hear. Glenn, take note. We all have to get on the impeachment bandwagon. That's the only type of "investigation" that is going to drive a stake through this monster's heart, and I am not talking about a person, I am talking about a philosphy of government which is fascist.
I am encouraged because, as we all know, money makes the world go round.
If WALL STREET starts to call our for impeachment, if Barron's and Investor's Business Daily and all the other publications that business people read start up the drum beat for impeachment, then THAT'S something that can make a difference.
I think principled businessmen have to join this movement to impeach if it is going to get off the ground.
I think it's about time Bill Gates spoke up. Doesn't he want his children to live in a democracy?
Maybe all our letters and phone calls should be going to Bill Gates? Google and Yahoo and all the others are hopeless. Just part of the machine.
But Bill Gates' favorite TV show is "24". He says he is addicted to it. Sure, probably has a thirst to see some heroic government people for bas relief. And being a "24" fan, Bill Gates knows about rogue elements taking over a government, as we have now.
Bill Gates, show your face. What's it gonna be?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe thing besides voting irregularities and fraud that I am sure will occur again that will make it especially difficult is the Gerrymandering.
Spot on - but please don't overlook the power of the "wedge" issues.
They will win if they can make the 2006 and 2008 look like referendums on "gay rights" and "culture of life."
Your right of course, Rep's always win on the wedge issues. If I was a Democrat running for office I would decide on a message and stay with it. The Dems have the winning issues.
Here is how it would go!
Me: The Republicans are outsourcing your security to an Arab nation that was involved in 9/11
Republican opponent: My opponent supports gay marriage
Me: The Republicans are outsourcing your security to an Arab nation that was involved in 9/11
Republican opponent: My opponent is pro abortion
Me: The Republicans are spying on you without a warrant through the NSA.
ETC. ETC. ETC.
Pick a message or two, three at most and stay on it. Don't get dragged into debates on wedge issues. Everytime they bring uo a wedge issue repeat the same message, like a mantra.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThere is another organization too but I don't know the name so mabe somebody can post it.
Bradblog (http://www.bradblog.com/) has been on this topic ever since Bev Harris started to make headway. Check his blog to see the latests -- even the so-called-liberal "superblogs" rarely mention their good work (but that is another topic).
I don't know if these are the sites you had in mind, but they are worth checking:
VotersUnite.org
VoteTrustUSA.Org
THANKS!
I had some Internet connection problems which prevented me from posting for the last couple of hours -- something which, upon reflection, was probably a good thing, since my rational faculties were overwhelmed by emotional disgust for Olympia Snowe and Chuck Hagel, among others, and venting some unbridled rage in an Update wouldn't have been all that constructive.
ReplyDeleteI'll have a lot more on this tomorrow. What always fueled Watergate were efforts to block investigations. There are multiple other prongs to this scandal which are alive and growing. As always, whether this scandal will produce the consequences it ought to will depend on the ability to persuade the public of just how radical and profound are the threats posed by this Administration.
Oh yeah and just for good measure I would add to:
ReplyDeleteThe Republicans are outsourcing your security to an Arab country that was involved in 9/11
The following line:
I don't want the next smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud in NY harbor
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteI had some Internet connection problems which prevented me from posting for the last couple of hours -- something which, upon reflection, was probably a good thing, since my rational faculties were overwhelmed by emotional disgust for Olympia Snowe and Chuck Hagel, among others, and venting some unbridled rage in an Update wouldn't have been all that constructive.
For whatever reason Glen the Republicans seem to be able to bring the moderate Reps into line when they feel they need to, even with a pRESIDENT that is stuck in the mid thirties in the polls.
If I were to hazard a guess, and if I were a conspiracy theorist, the one word Diebold comes to mind. Not to mention the other sleight of hand tricks on election day.
Gee all these superior intellects here, outsmarted again by the President.
ReplyDeleteWhere does one reside on the scale of intelligence if one is constantly outmanuevered by a chimp?
Jackass. Sounds about right.
The Terroist Surveillance Act of 2006 will be passed to help assured that the NSA, perfectly legal, terrorist surveillance program continues unabated.
Its not like they have 900 illegal FBI files on their political opponents ala the Clintons.
Says the "Dog"
"the Dog" said...
ReplyDeleteGee all these superior intellects here, outsmarted again by the President.
Where does one reside on the scale of intelligence if one is constantly outmanuevered by a chimp?
Jackass. Sounds about right.
The Terroist Surveillance Act of 2006 will be passed to help assured that the NSA, perfectly legal, terrorist surveillance program continues unabated.
Its not like they have 900 illegal FBI files on their political opponents ala the Clintons.
Says the "Dog"
The Republicans are outsourcing our security to an Arab country that was involved in 9/11.
I don't want the next smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud in NY harbor
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Jefferson
ReplyDeleteStill comfortable sitting there in front of your computer screen hold forth on the true meaning of America and Liberty? While we all fiddle it burns.
It's time people.
kovie said...
ReplyDelete"Whether the Administration is held accountable for its actions will ultimately be determined not by whether the GOP-controlled Intelligence Committee votes to hold hearings, but will be almost exclusively a function of whether the public demands accountability and consequences.
Well, here is a suggested talking point.
The Republicans are spying on you without a warrant. Do you really think they have any business knowing your private business?
And when the trolls say: It is a limited program that only targets Al Qaida.
Say: prove it
And just keep pounding that message. Simple, clear and to the point.
gris lobo,
ReplyDeleteI agree that is an enormously effective technique and the best way to control and win a debate.
Glenn writes: ....but will be almost exclusively a function of whether the public demands accountability and consequences
My guess is that the "public" can and would rise up, but they are not going to act quickly enough, or in a united enough fashion to prevail unless they can get behind one or a few strong, clear, eloquent, rational, persuasive, passionate, patriotic and unimpeachable voices who speak as one and ring the alarm.
Imagine if everyone turned on their TVs and there was a "paid political announcement" on multiple channels at the same time.
Plus it was on almost every patriotic blog.
Standing together are Paul Craig Roberts, Lou Dobbs, Russ Feingold, Bill Gates, Al Gore, Nancy Reagan and Glenn Greenwald. (This is my fantasy so I get to pick the cast.)
They speak in one voice and they say "Fellow citizens, we are here to tell your that our country has been taken over by a rogue band of fascists who threaten to destroy this nation and establish a dictatorship. If we don't rise up together immediately as a nation and take action, in two years it will be too late and we will have sunk into a soft dictatorship on our way to becoming a fascist Police State." Etc.
You don't think the public, right and left, would sit up and take notice and do whatever that group said had to be done to save the Republic?
I do.
PS. You know the case about the teacher who's been suspended after a student in his class taped his tirade? That's a hoax engineered by your friendly fascists in government, imo. It's meant to set the stage for making it impossible to use the word "fascist" or similar words without facing consequences. Even though that teacher was far from eloquent and way off base in most of his comments (deliberately so, in my opinion, to make even patriotic Democrats unlikely to defend him), this incident de-sensitizes people to others who are going to be using the word fascist with increasing frequency in the days to come, as there is no other word which better describes things.
And every time someone speaks out and uses that word or implies we are headed toward a dictatorship, some people will lump those people with that teacher and dismiss their words.
Bushco is trying to seal off every exit. They want to muzzle the press, they want to muzzle the educators, and they especially want to squash in its infancy all talk of fascism. I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or so the use of the word "fascist" to describe Bushco will be a considered an act of treason. After all, it's wartime, and you can't talk against the government.
That's how propaganda works. How did you think it worked?
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteI love your analysis, even if it is sometimes hard for me to follow (see my alias). Don't give up!
On an unrelated note, in your post Live blogging the NSA hearings, littlesky said:
The only conclusion I can come to based on what I heard today is that the "program" isn't surveillance, it's data mining. It's TIA or a TIA clone, and they sure as hell weren't going to tell congress about it after congress specifically told them to shut it down. It's the only logical explanation for any of this.
I haven't heard much additional speculation on this (or did I just miss it?). Yet, I can't help but worry that littlesky is right. I agree with your conclusion, based on the Administration's own statements, that this is mainly an Executive power grab. Nevertheless, there is certainly some sort of spying program that they don't want us to know about it. The timelines match. They've hinted that TIA wasn't stopped when congress "de-funded" it, merely classified.
The public had a visceral reaction against TIA. (The freaky all-seeing eye and pyramid logo didn't help, either.) If some new evidence emerged to substantiate this idea, wouldn't that grab the public's attention?
Well, it's a start......
ReplyDeleteVt. Towns Endorse Move to Impeach Bush
By DAVID GRAM
Associated Press Writer
March 7, 2006, 11:30 PM EST
NEWFANE, Vt. -- In a white-clapboard town hall, built circa 1832, voters gathered Tuesday to conduct their community's business and to call for the impeachment of President Bush.
"In the U.S. presently there are only a few places where citizens can act in this fashion and have a say in our nation," said select board member Dan DeWalt, who drafted the impeachment article that was placed on the warning -- or official agenda -- for the annual town meeting, a proud Yankee tradition in New England.
"It absolutely affects us locally," Dewalt said. "It's our sons and daughters, our mothers and fathers, who are dying" in the war in Iraq.
The article, approved 121-29 in balloting by paper, calls on Vermont's lone member of the House, independent Rep. Bernie Sanders, to file articles of impeachment against the president, alleging that Bush misled the nation about Iraq and engaged in illegal domestic spying.
Other cities nationwide have taken up resolutions calling for Bush's impeachment, notably San Francisco. The sentiment has rarely spread to rural America, but Vermont is known for bucking politics as usual.
At least four other Vermont towns, spurred by publicity about Newfane's resolution, endorsed similar resolutions during Tuesday's meetings: Brookfield, Dummerston, Marlboro and Putney.
In Newfane, the impeachment item came at the end of a roughly four-hour meeting Tuesday morning that was devoted mostly to the local affairs of the town of 1,600.
Among the other items discussed was whether the town should fix some of its 100-year-old sidewalks.
The impeachment discussion took up more than half an hour, reflecting the intense interest in the topic and something of a division over whether the town meeting was the appropriate place to debate it.
Ann Landenberger argued that it was appropriate. "As a teacher I can't say to my kids that what happens on the national level doesn't affect us at the local level," she said. "Would that we could all be in a cocoon, but that is not the case."
Greg Record, a justice of the peace, said after the meeting that the town is made up of people from the "far left," and he criticized the amount of time and attention such advisory votes get.
"We spend more time on these things than on a million-dollar budget item," he complained.
The president did have his supporters during the debate.
Lenore Salzbrun defended Bush, saying she had close friends who died in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. "I am so grateful that our president didn't just put his head in the sand ... and did go out and fight," she said.
Sanders said in a statement that although the Bush administration "has been a disaster for our country, and a number of actions that he has taken may very well not have been legal," given the reality that the Republicans control the House and the Senate, "it would be impractical to talk about impeachment."
Gallup: Democrats Stretch Lead In Vote For Congress
ReplyDeletePosted by Mark E. Smith
Added to homepage Tue Mar 07th 2006, 06:07 PM ET
March, 07, 2006
Gallup News Service
Fourteen-point Democratic lead is among the widest since 1994
PRINCETON, NJ -- The latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll, conducted Feb 28 to march 1, finds the democrats holding a substantial lead over the Republicans as the party more registered voters currently support in this fall's elections for Congress. More than half of registered voters (53%) favor the Democratic candidate for the u.S. House in their district; only 39% favor the Republican.
http://poll.gallup.com/content/?ci=21793
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to turn out to vote, particularly in midterm elections. As a result, the Republican Party has repeatedly won a majority of seats in Congress since 1994, while typically trailing the Democrats by a few points in pre-election surveys among all registered voters. In the past two midterm elections (1998 and 2002), Republicans trailed the Democrats among registered voters by nine points and five points respectively in Gallup's final pre-election polls.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if this is true, that more Republicans come out to vote, or if it is rather that the current batch of Republicans plays dirtier and steals the votes. After all, if they would let tens of thousands of people be killed needlessly, including thousands of American citizens, one could believe that they would cheat.
And Paul Craig Roberts says they stole the 2000 election.
Why have Democrats put up with this? I haven't heard Hillary Clinton say the Republicans steal elections. Couldn't Democrats put a person outside every voting booth in America, and ask people who are leaving who they voted for?
Vt. towns.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's a good start, and a relief to see some "good news". But isn't the report leaving out a step? Anonymous quotes:
"The article, approved 121-29 in balloting by paper, calls on Vermont's lone member of the House, independent Rep. Bernie Sanders, to file articles of impeachment against the president,..."
Tho't this had to go thru State legislature first.
Questionmark,
ReplyDeleteThis isn't about right or wrong, it's about preventing the evaluation of the administration's actions for their rightness or wrongness.
You and those like you have already made up your minds that its wrong, that Bush is tapping your phone calls right now to see what commie books you are reading. No amount of investigation or explanation will ever change you minds. So what's the purpose of an investigation that you will only accept if it confirms all of the far left's paranoid and incorrect legal theories? Answer, NONE. Its sole purpose is to partner with your cohorts in the MSM to tell lies and exaggerations all the way to November 2006 and beyond.
Since you aren't interested in the truth, and since the far left isn't open minded enough to believe we are at
war and we need to take reasonable and prudent measures to protect our country, yes I and the MAJORITY of the population in this country are NOT interested in your phony baloney witch hunts aimed at destroying the country's ability to protect itself, and naively calling for policy changes and interpretations that will not increase any law abiding person's effective, non-theoretical, civil liberties while destroying a vital and effective tool for battlefield intelligence gathering.
The far left would rather see the USA defeated and become eventually a second rate power at the mercy of despots in and out of the U.N. than to ever have to face the alternative (i.e., that they aren't so brilliant and great thinkers and policy wonks as they constantly imagine themselves to be).
Frankly, there can be no cooperation in a civil society with people like the censors and elitists of the left. There is only war until any diversity of thought and opinion is defeated. You cannot run a democratic society with such people actively subverting the system at every turn (witness all the democrat and MSM subversion taking place every day for the last 50 years). Such people are the real traitors in America today, and should be treated as such.
Hope you didn't mind my paraphrasing your quote above and making some minor changes for the sake of accuracy.
Says the "Dog"
I read something very provocative on the Internet this morning that has led me to start musing.
ReplyDeleteNo regular reader of this site has to be reminded of the extreme lengths to which this current administration has gone (yesterday was just one more example of that increasingly bizarre effort) in its attempt to prevent anyone from lifting the shroud of unprecedented secrecy which hangs over all the various surveillance programs which have recently come to light, many of which appear to be illegal and possibly even unconstitutional.
So we've all speculated: what's behind this frenzied, increasingly desperate attempt on the part of the Executive Branch to keep any light from being shed on these programs, and prevent the Administration from being forced to answer to the public, or to Congress, any of the legitimate inquiries concerning the scope, intent, effectiveness, legality and purpose of such programs?
Is it to aid them in fighting terrorism?
Extremely unlikely, as even the Administration itself has not argued with any believability that there has been any significant gain derived from these surveillance programs in terms of protecting national security.
Is it to get "dirt" and ammunition on their political opponents, or on members of their own party to keep them in line?
Unlikely. While this thesis might have been plausible a year or two ago, it now appears less likely because the President and the Republicans close to him have so consolidated their power that a virtually impregnable wall has gone up around the fortress to protect it, and neither actions by the opposition party nor threats of Republican defections pose any real danger. Blackmail isn't needed when a ruler has been able to secure for himself absolute power. Consent to govern is not required for a dictatorship.
Is it to enable them to steal and profit from corrupt activities? Are money, lifestyle and privilege the goals?
Unlikely, as one party rule has created a climate in which those in power and their cronies can steal with immunity and engage in unbridled corruption without fear of reprisal. Blackmail is hardly necessary to enable them to continue their corrupt business practices since there is nobody really objecting to those practices or threatening to end them. The "Syphilis" group has apparently approved thousands of transactions concerning the selling off of America to foreign companies without even a cursory investigation into most of those deals. Nor is that group even required to tell the American people of the existence of such deals, which is one reason it came as such a shock to people to find out the extent of what's been going on when the Port deal exploded into public awareness and investigative reporting revealed the existence of some of the previous deals that committee had approved.
Corporate espionage? Unlikely. The large corporations, including those that control the media and international finance, have not acted or threatened to act as adversaries to or critics of this government's policies. If anything, the government has made sure the Media and Big Business have had their bread so lavishly buttered on both sides that they have willingly and uncritically marched alongside this Administration every step of the way.
What then?
What "crime" could be so deviously conceived, so meticulously plotted over such a relatively extended period of time, so dependent for its success on the unswerving, ideologically generated loyalty of so committed a group of people, and of such gigantic dimensions that the planning of the crime itself would have had to include full recognition of the necessity for a cover-up, and programs to facilitate that cover-up would have had to be incorporated into the design of the plan-- programs that would have had to be ready to be put into place almost instantly after the "crime" had been committed? What "crime" could be so unimaginable to the public that the very audacity of the crime would be what prevented people from believing that such a "crime" had been committed?
If there were such a monumental "crime" and the consequences of it being revealed so dire, wouldn't the success of the cover-up become the be all and end all of every one of the co-conspirators?
Yet isn't it a fact of life that if the co-conspirators were a small, but still significantly large enough group to be difficult to control, wouldn't it be inevitable that sooner or later, for one reason or another, one or more of those co-conspirators would crack, would become disgruntled perhaps for reasons having to do with something else, or have regrets, or be plagued by fits of conscience when some of the unintended consequences of that "crime" fully played out? And if that person decided that for whatever his reasons he wanted others to find out about that crime, wouldn't it be impossible, even life threatening to the person or his family, to publicly reveal that the crime had been committed?
Would anyone even believe him?
So wouldn't such a person have to find other, more covert means to get his secret out that wouldn't directly implicate himself? A hint here, a whisper there, an isolated fact leaked out to someone here, another there, in the hope that eventually others would put together the pieces and uncover and reveal the "crime" without actually implicating the conspirator himself?
But wouldn't the "criminals" who dreaded exposure above all have also anticipated that such a leak would happen in time, and concocted a cover-up scheme so perfectly designed that it would prevent that first hole in the dyke from opening up floodwaters so savage that they would overrun the fortress and drown its inhabitants? If their lives and their power and their legacy and everything that mattered to them was at stake, wouldn't the co-conspirators even be willing to trash the Constitution of the United States of America and revoke American civil liberties to ensure their "crime" never came to light?
After all, this would be no ordinary crime. In fact, this wasn't a "crime" at all. How could anything be considered a "crime" when the consequences of that so called "crime" would be to eventually liberate hundreds of millions, even billions of people from lives of futility, repression and violence and help to usher in a harmonic new world order in which the world would not only be safe for democracy, but that democracy would actually be exported and hand delivered to every dark corner of the world where people lived lives of despair and desperation?
When designing the cover-up that was phase two of the "crime", wouldn't the architects of the plan have wanted to make sure that if any "leak" should occur, that when the first whisper became a rumor, and before that rumor became a thesis which threatened to become an investigation, they would become aware of the "chatter" which surrounds all such widening speculation when it first hit their radar screen and be able to aim their artillery precisely enough to so that they could annihilate that early "chatter"?
And wouldn't that cover-up have to go on forever and the programs that facilitate the cover-up in this increasingly electronic age of information have to be written into law, to guarantee that the never-ending cover-up could lawfully proceed? But wouldn't it soon become necessary to go outside the law when the chatter became loud enough to prevent those who were snooping into the newly lawful surveillance programs from connecting the dots?
And finally, wouldn't the co-conspirators have planned from the git go to put in place lawyers who would permit them to "interpret" the Constitution in such a fashion as to give themselves broad enough powers in times of war to ensure that even if the worst happened and they were finally exposed, they could claim they had the power to do what they had done and should not accused of engaging in any "crime?" And wouldn't they first proclaim that the country was, in fact, at war, a war that would never end until the last terrorist on this planet had breathed his last breath, and the President had the power to do anything he wanted because we were at war?
And isn't it just possible that all of us were wrong when we assumed that the reason Bushco used 9/11 as a pretext to sell to the country the concept that to protect people from terrorists it was necessary to institute programs that limit their civil liberties and invade their privacy and thus got them to go along with programs they would never have otherwise accepted was because the Government secretly wanted to seize more power to further their own personal, political, domestic and international agendas?
What if it were the reverse? What if Bushco will fight to the death to protect these programs not because Bushco wants more and more power to engage in corrupt practices and not because Bushco wants to establish a permanent Republican dictatorship in this country, but rather because these programs, vast, illegal and unconstitutional probably beyond even our worst fears, are the central component of a cover-up scheme that was ingeniously designed and put into place to make sure that the prior "crime" which necessitated the cover-up would never come to light?
Maybe that is the reason Buckley and all the other leading conservative neo-cons who are jumping ship and arguing we should get out of Iraq as quickly as we can are speaking out. Iraq clearly didn't go as planned, and the worse it gets, the more it turns the American people against the Administration, the more likely it becomes that the cover-up and the "crime" itself will be discovered and the "criminals" will be exposed, and THAT is something that they could never allow to happen.
Just musing……
Time to filibuster. Take DeWine's bill as an opportunity to filibuster. The majority of the American public believes that Bush committed a crime. Put it front and center.
ReplyDeletekovie said...
ReplyDeletegris lobo:
Actually, that was Glenn's closing paragraph that you cited, that I cited in my previous comment. Not of my penning, alas.
I knew it was Kovie. My point was though that I think we should take a few winning issues and pound them home in simple messages, just keep repeating them over and over when we reply to the trolls like "dog"
Avoid the wedge issues and use the winning issues to our advantage every chance we get
'
I think everyone should write their congresspeople and tell them they are very displeased. Everyone should also keep voting, anyone who doesn't vote is desecrating a right billions of Americans died to protect, not voting is not a choice. King Tut battled Gary Kasparov to the death so that the great wall of China would be torn down and we could be one vote out of 100 million. 1 out of 100 million, that's powerful stuff there. Only 99 million 999,999 people voting opposite how you voted can negate the power of that 1 out of 100 million vote!
ReplyDeleteWe need to keep supporting the system that subjugates us and there is no better way to do that than to give whoever comes to power a mandate to do as they wish by making sure that millions and millions more people vote next time!
Remember in an election it comes down to "the majority has decided, and since so many voted, the majority must be accepted."
Who cares that the people who voted for the losing canidate(s) did not vote for the "majority" winner, and neither did those who desecrated their right that billions died for by not voting.
When millions of people vote, then the winner must be legitimate, since they won in an election where so many people voted.
That means the majority obviously has won the right to impose its will on everyone that voted for them, that voted against them and that didn't vote at all! That sounds like a winning plan if I've ever heard one.
The vote should be by secret ballot so no one can ever be held responsible for who they helped elect to office and for what they impose on everyone. Think of how much easier it will be if you don't have to fear repriasals from someone who was screwed over by the politician you voted to impose on them, even though you knew the politician you voted for was crooked. He was just crooked in your favor. It's easier to rob and steal from a man if you know you will never be held accountable for the robbing and stealing done on your behalf.
Plus with secret ballots no one really knows who won an election since you can never be sure your vote was counted correctly as you cast it.
As many Americans possible should fight to remain what Lysander Spooner refered to as:
"Dupes--a large class, no doubt--each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a "free man," a "sovereign"; that this is "a free government"; "a government of equal rights," "the best government on earth," and such like absurdities"
I want freedom, just as long as I don't have to do anything to get it or keep it for myself or anyone else for that matter. Whatever freedom the government and my fellow citizens don't steal from me because of their fears or morals will probably be enough.
USA! USA! USA!