Monday, March 06, 2006

The Media Firewall

How the Compartmentalization of News Coverage Stifles Political Accountability

By Anonymous Liberal

One of the more puzzling (and at times infuriating) phenomena that I've observed as a consumer of news coverage over the years is the tendency of the media to compartmentalize political stories. Stories that, in reality, are deeply interconnected are often presented as if they had nothing to do with one another and are covered on entirely separate tracks. Analysis is cabined off and facts are presented in a contextual vacuum. It's not clear why this happens.

Perhaps reporters don't want to confuse readers by repeatedly referring to another story. Perhaps they don't want to stray too far from their mandate and step on the toes of their colleagues who are covering those others stories. Or perhaps they're just lazy and haven't done enough research to understand how the issue they're covering fits into the overall picture. Whatever it is, the natural consequence of this phenomenon is that politicians are able get away with making statements and arguments in one context than are entirely inconsistent with the statements and arguments they are simultaneously making in another.

There is no better example of this phenomenon at work than the media's recent coverage of the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy and the simultaneous push on Capitol Hill to renew the Patriot Act. Both of these stories have garnered a significant amount of press coverage over the last few months, but, for the most part, the media has elected to treat them as if they have nothing to do with one another.

This bizarre media firewall has been so effective that I suspect very few Americans even realize what the Patriot Act is, i.e., a collection of amendments to other statutes, the most significant of which is the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The primary purpose of the Patriot Act was to modernize FISA, the same statute that the President now claims is an out-dated relic which he has the power to disregard whenever he deems it "necessary."

Last week, the Senate voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act, and that vote was given prominent coverage in both the New York Times and the Washington Post. But neither paper saw fit to mention that the Patriot Act and FISA are essentially the same thing. The Times even quoted President Bush saying the following:

"The Patriot Act is vital to the war on terrorand defending our citizens against a ruthlessenemy," the president said in a statement from India. "This bill will allow our law enforcement officials to continue to use thesame tools against terrorists that are already used against drug dealers and other criminals, while safeguarding the civil liberties of the American people."

The Post carried part of the same quote and added that "[r]enewing the act, Bush and congressional Republicans said, was key to preventing more terror attacks in the United States."

These statements--while unremarkable in a universe where the president isn't openly flaunting this very law--are entirely incoherent in the universe we actually inhabit, where the president has admitted that his administration is currently engaged in the very type of surveillance that FISA explicitly criminalizes. After all, if some combination of the AUMF and Article II bestow the president with the power to disregard FISA--as the administration and its defenders claim--then, by definition, the amendments to FISA contained in the Patriot Act are clearly not "vital to the war on terror." Indeed, they're entirely superfluous.

Similarly, it makes absolutely no sense to say that the Patriot Act/FISA "safeguard[s] the civil liberties of the American people" when the administration is claiming that it is not bound by FISA's provisions. Because both the Post and the Times insist on covering the Patriot Act renewal and the NSA controversy as if they were totally unrelated stories, both papers simply present Bush's incoherent statements without further comment.

And it gets worse. Though you wouldn't know it by following the coverage in the national media, the President himself has made a number of public statements which are not at all consistent with his current position regarding the effectiveness and application of FISA. In late January, over a month after the NSA controversy surfaced, Glenn was the first to point out that in 2002 the Bush administration publicly opposed an amendment to FISA that would have brought the law closer in line with the surveillance activities the administration was already conducting; the administration argued then that FISA was working fine and that the proposed amendment might be unconstitutional. Although Glenn's discovery spawned a few mainstream media stories, it hasn't even come close to garnering the level of coverage it deserves.

But Glenn's discovery led me to wonder what other inconsistent statements the national media had failed to unearth. It didn't take me long to find some real doozies. For instance, with all the talk of signing statements, it apparently never occurred to anyone at the major news organizations to look up what President Bush said when he signed the Patriot Act into law in 2001. Sure enough, it wasn't at all consistent with what he's saying now. Here's a small portion of what he said:

Surveillance of communications is another essential tool to pursue and stop terrorists. The existing law [FISA] was written in the era of rotary telephones. This new law I sign today [which amends FISA] will allow surveillance of all communications used by terrorists, including e-mails, the Internet, and cell phones. As of today, we'll be able to better meet the technological challenges posed by this proliferation of communications technology.

The following weekend, the President delivered his weekly radio address and again discussed the amendments to FISA he'd just signed into law. This time he observed:

The new law[which amends FISA] recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist. . .

Under the new law officials may conduct court-ordered surveillance of all modern forms of communication used by terrorists.

Bush ended the radio address by making the following pledge:

These measures were enacted with broad support in both parties. They reflect a firm resolve to uphold and respect the civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution, while dealing swiftly and severely with terrorists. Now comes the duty of carrying them out. And I can assure all Americans that these important new statutes will be enforced to the full.

As we know now, Bush didn't take his pledge very seriously. If his administration wasn't already violating FISA at the time he made these remarks, it began to shortly thereafter. So much for enforcing these new statutes to the full. To my knowledge, however, Bush has never been questioned about any of these statements, and no major media outlet has printed them (at least since the scandal broke).

I'm sure that part of the problem is that reporters are more concerned with cultivating inside sources and securing exclusive scoops than exploring the public record. But it's more than that. As this week's stories on the Patriot Act demonstrate, the news media just cannot seem to connect the dots. The Patriot Act and the President's statements about the Patriot Act are one story, and the NSA controversy is another.

Of course, the national media isn't solely to blame here. Bush's critics, particularly his Democratic critics, have failed miserably to highlight this connection for journalists. The debate over the renewal of the Patriot Act gave them the perfect opportunity and platform to explain to the public just how radical and incoherent the administration's legal theories really are. But, for reasons I cannot begin to fathom, the Democrats have for the most part chosen to play along in this bizarre game.

The debate over the renewal of the Patriot Act has largely played out much as one would have expected had the NSA program never been exposed, with all sides acting as if the law that results from their deliberations will actually define the limits of the government's power. It's as if no one in Congress has truly internalized the implications of the Bush administration's legal theories; no one has really come to grips with the reality that, under those theories, the rules Congress constructs are mere guidelines which may be disregarded at the discretion of the president. No one seems to be asking the obvious question: what's the point? Why spend so much time fine-tuning a law that the President has no intention of following?

If there's a silver lining to be found here, it's that this issue highlights the unique and valuable role that blogs can play in our political discourse. Bloggers are avid consumers of news. They excel at taking bits of information from various news sources and public records and weaving them together into a narrative. It's not at all surprising to me that a blogger (Glenn) was the first to draw the connection between the 2002 DeWine legislation and the current NSA controversy or that blogs like Think Progress are often the first to point out when a politician's current statements are contradicted by prior public statements.

By bridging the artificial media firewall between inter-related stories and constantly sifting through the public record, bloggers play an indispensable role in educating the public and holding politicians and government officials accountable. It would be preferable, of course, if bloggers weren't so often alone in this endeavor, if the national media did a better job of drawing these connections on its own. But as the aftermath of Glenn's DeWine story demonstrated, journalists are becoming more receptive to pursuing stories first highlighted by bloggers (and even crediting bloggers for their work).

This trend is encouraging, and it gives me hope that bloggers can help to de-compartmentalize the news, and by doing so, at least force politicians to adopt consistent talking points. That would be a small but important step in the right direction.

92 comments:

  1. Anonymous9:10 AM

    Good analysis. Journalists need to learn that bloggers are their best resource, not their enemy. Bloggers do the work which journalists can't or won't. They investigate. They go behind claims to the primary sources. They uncover contradictions and false statements. The blogosphere is like one big, huge collective brain that can do far, far more than any journalist by himself.

    The journalists who work with the enterprising investigative bloggers and use their discoveries will be far ahead of the game. The blogosphere is what can save America despite our diseased press. It can also save the press, if they let themselves be saved.

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  2. Anonymous9:27 AM

    On the other hand, since when does one point from a blogger getting into the Post constitute a trend?

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  3. Thank you for that excellent post. You've pointed out some inconsistencies that certainly need to be seen in the light of day.

    You wrote:
    "Perhaps reporters don't want to confuse readers by repeatedly referring to another story. Perhaps they don't want to stray too far from their mandate and step on the toes of their colleagues who are covering those others stories. Or perhaps they're just lazy and haven't done enough research to understand how the issue they're covering fits into the overall picture"

    I'm not certain that the last statement is true, but I imagine that there are some instances of laziness.

    Personally, I think that the press is too careful. They have developed a way of just reporting the facts, in my opinion, to get away from the stigma of editorializing.
    Eric Alterman recently wrote a book called What Liberal Media. In the publication he points out how the right is "working the refs". By that I mean that right wing pundants are shouting "Liberal Media" at every chance, thereby making the press a spineless shuck.

    They, the conservative fairness shouters, have been very successful at maiming the press. Now until we have a very homogenized, corporate, spineless press.

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  4. There's also the issue of access. If reporters connect too many of the dots for the public, and thereby paint too vivid a picture of the hypocrisy, they are not only marked as "liberal", they lose access to conservative sources. When so much reporting today seems to be done by reporters sitting at their desks with cellphone in hand, getting people to talk to you is essential. It's not the way it should be, but I think in large part it's the way it is.

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  5. Anonymous10:56 AM

    I think there may be a simplier explaination.

    Journalists for the most part, aren't trained to understand what in many cases are fairly complicated legal issues. Thus, being pressed for time, under deadlines, they hit the high points, and don't connect the dots.

    I don't believe it's any coincidence that it takes someone like Glenn Greenwald, who has both a constitutional legal background, and a talent for writing, to frame such discussions in a way that the average joe (like me) can understand what is at stake. This isn't an arguement that breaks itself down into a 15 second sound bite.

    Blogging is the new journalism. I regard selected blogs as far more accurate than most MSM outlets. If nothing else, the immediate, easy and sometimes overwhelming feedback keep blogs on target. It's hard to write enough letters to the editor to correct a fallacy or weak argument.

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  6. Anonymous11:30 AM

    Welcome, A.L. Already we can't live without you. You characterize perfectly the growing relevance of the blogosphere in response to the willful irresponsibility of a fourth estate that is now a position of privilege rather than a challenge to it. You are proof that the tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

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  7. And a hearty welcome to you as well as Hypatia!!

    Looking forward to reading some excellent discussions and posts in the days and weeks to come!

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  8. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  9. These statements--while unremarkable in a universe where the president isn't openly flaunting this very law--are entirely incoherent in the universe we actually inhabit, where the president has admitted that his administration is currently engaged in the very type of surveillance that FISA explicitly criminalizes. After all, if some combination of the AUMF and Article II bestow the president with the power to disregard FISA--as the administration and its defenders claim--then, by definition, the amendments to FISA contained in the Patriot Act are clearly not "vital to the war on terror." Indeed, they're entirely superfluous.

    That statement is incorrect from top to bottom.

    I will be generous and assume that Anonymous Liberal is uninformed rather than deliberately attempting to misinform you with this blog.

    As clearly described in the Justice white paper, the Article II constitutional power being used by the President enables him "to conduct warrantless surveillance of enemy forces for intelligence purposes..." That is the extent of the power being claimed.

    http://files.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf

    Conversely, Justice uses FISA continuously to get warrants to gather evidence for criminal prosecutions.

    The WH did not bust its ass twice passing the portions of the Patriot Act which amend FISA simply because it had nothing better to do. The Patriot Act is meant to reverse a number of post-Watergate restrictions on law enforcement and intelligence sharing in order to more easily build criminal cases against terrorists and their supporters.

    This distinction between the President's constitutional power to use warrantless searches to gather intelligence, but not to gather evidence for criminal prosecution, has been recognized for a quarter century now by the Courts. See e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973).

    It is not now and never has been the position of the President that his Article II powers enable him to ignore FISA in its entirety. Rather, Justice clearly set out in its white paper that it does not believe that FISA as amended by the AUMF reaches intelligence gathering and would be unconstitutional to the extent that it did.

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  10. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Once again, Bart has no idea what he's talking about.

    Yesterday, he lied and said that the NSA program is necessary to eavesdrop in ways that FISA won't allow, even though Gonzales himself said last week that the standards used are EXACTLY THE SAME for each program and the NSA program doesn't allow eavesdropping on anyone which FISA doesn't allow.

    Today, Bart says that the Patriot Act only amended FISA for criminal prosecutions, not for surveillance of terrorists. Too bad George Bush said exactly the opposite about those amendments:

    Surveillance of communications is another essential tool to pursue and stop terrorists. The existing law [FISA] was written in the era of rotary telephones. This new law I sign today [which amends FISA] will allow surveillance of all communications used by terrorists, including e-mails, the Internet, and cell phones. As of today, we'll be able to better meet the technological challenges posed by this proliferation of communications technology. . .

    The new law[which amends FISA] recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist. . .

    Under the new law officials may conduct court-ordered surveillance of all modern forms of communication used by terrorists.


    Do you see what happens when cultists like Bart defend the indefensible at all costs? They end up contradicting their own leaders and blatantly making shit up.

    Despite his pompous exterior, Bart is both dishonest AND stupid.

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  11. AL - interesting analysis. I read your post about the Patriot Act the other day and I am glad you were able to expand alittle further on the incoherence of the Patriot Act vs. FISA stories.

    I believe that one possible reason for the incoherence is that the AUMF rationale for why they were able to circumvent FISA was only recently adopted (Glenn pointed this out when he wrote of the Gonzales 'clarification' letter I believe).

    I guess the short answer would probably go something like this: The administration was able to get the Patriot Act hastily passed after 9/11 (it was probably something they were wanting to get passed even before 9/11). But they had to leave out the really controversial provisions (ie warrantless spying) in case someone actually decided to read the bill and spout 'Hey, what a minute'. So once the Act was secured into law, the President went ahead and signed off on the NSA surveillance anyway. Everything goes swimmingly (they got their war in Iraq in the interim) until the program is revealed. This was probably a big 'uh-oh' moment for the Bush admin. So they had to come up with a quick rationale for it. Well since that 'inherent authority' thing is kinda questionable (it relies on how you interperate a 200 yr old document), so they needed a more recent excuse. And besides, FISA fit with the surveillance they were conducting (or at least that which was revealed in the press). Hence the AUMF excuse. Of course, as you point out, that doesn't fit given what the Patriot Act already expanded surveillance powers.

    (Sorry, I guess that short answer turned into a long winded and confusing answer. Then again it would fit well for the Bush admin so I guess it's not so bad)

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  12. Bart,

    You're very confused. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, as its name suggests, was passed in order to regulate the use of surveillance for intelligence gathering purposes, not criminal prosecutions. There was already a statute in place, Title III, which governs the use of surveillance for the purposes of gathering evidence for criminal prosectuion. Indeed, in order to get a FISA warrant, you have demonstrate to a FISA judge that "a significant purpose" of the surveillance is to gather intelligence (as opposed to evidence for prosecution). Prior to the Patriot Act, FISA required that you show that intelligence gathering was your "primary purpose." The reason this provision is included in FISA is because, without it, FISA would authorize surveillance that violates the 4th Amendment, as explained by the Supreme Court in the Keith case. It's easier to get a FISA warrant than a Title III warrant, and the only reason that lower standard doesn't violate the 4th amendment is because FISA warrants are used for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence.

    In other words, the distinction you are trying to make between criminal prosecution and intelligence gathering makes no sense at all. The reason we have two statutes (FISA and Title III) is because Congress already took into consideration this distinction.

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  13. Glenn posted on the type of argument *rules* being ignored in the punditry of the conservative right (and with BART's comments above)- and what some of us have come to conclude is that these opposing viewpoints and arguments do not stand up to the "Good Faith" test.

    [These discussions with those conservatives holding opposing positions, all can be fairly dissected using the same legal principles of *Good faith v Bad faith.*

    Judges, as you know, are often on the look out for the rationale behind legal arguments to determine that they adhere to some GF standards of ground rules in the undertaking. And likewise, these blog discussions on Unclaimed Territory attempts the same thing as – To address the issues, leave the negative distractions on the sidelines – and see where one comes out in the final analysis.]

    But when...

    *When they fail to acknowledge inconvenient facts or adhere to fundamental guiding legal principles.
    *When they fail to measure up under the proposed goals and do not advance the stated purpose.
    *When they sell out the long declared and fundamental principles of the *conservatism* they always claimed to be fighting for.
    *When they change the rules to a *what-ever-I mean-at-the-moment (a “Heads I win –Tails you lose”) formula.
    *When they refuse to meet the issues on the merits but resort to misleading epithets and tangents to distract from the main points-

    – That is where it becomes Bad Faith.

    This occurs whether it involves the bAdmin stance on certain issues. Or the GOP conservatives by-line touted from those who support the bAdmin positions. But finally – it also encompasses the blog-conservatives who use their blog-forum to pass these same party-line, knee-jerk analysis posts along to their readers. And fail to make corrects or adjust even when proved wrong on an issue.

    At some point you have to decide IF it is possible to really get a Good faith discussion out of these folks. I am not quite so sure it is anymore – and I’ve had my fair share of similar discussions with conservatives who follow this same pattern. And it so often comes down to an *agree to disagree* place because they cling to their positions regardless of the facts, issues or substance – and it becomes “I choose to believe this because I DO – and that where I stand.” Nothing can or will change their positions.

    I do think it is too important an issue of the outright feckless incompetency and harm done to our government, our country and the world as a whole, not to do everything in our power to defeat this menace...but how it gets played out: Fire with Fire, Smear to Smear...it is hard to say. But they play it this way because they believe it works.

    However - one further problem is not only the corruption of the argument process by many conservative pundits, But one of the main problems in the Good Faith notion of a discussion is this: The problem of the *Facts and Truth.*

    This idea is succinctly captured in the Paul Krugman interview (NY Times Select “Meet the Columnist” section: Part II -*Non-Political Truths*)

    A hasty transcription (if you don’t have access to Times select) is this:

    Paul Krugman:

    “What distresses me in trying to do any sort discussion of policy is that everything is political – including the TRUTH. There is no non-political TRUTH.

    If I say something like: “Economic growth over the past 5 years has been lower than one would have expected given the track record up til then…” Immediately that’s not something you can say, "Well - let’s look as what people expected or let’s look to what was the forecast of the Congressional Budget Office" --

    It immediately becomes a shouting match!

    In which people say: “No , by definition it must be better because we had the Evil Bill Clinton and now we have Good George Bush as President.”

    And simple things. I would have expected, even naively , even when I took the job at the NY Times, I expected that I would spend a lot time discussing serious debates. These things where there really are two sides.

    These days I find myself saying, “2 + 2 really DOES equal 4” – and being called an “extreme leftist” for saying so. And it really is a sad thing.”


    What we have is not a discussion of the merits based on any objective facts – but a purposely skewed and outright distortion of the *Facts and the Truth* upon which the conservative-right wishes to base their presumptions and arguments – and then descending into the worse situation of sliding into personal attacks as a motivation to undermine any argument entirely when they are called-out on the * Facts or the Truth.*

    So, to me it more than merely the nature and style of the argument they choose to employ – as much as it’s skewing the very facts or substance upon which it is based. -- Which you have encountered in merely reading a very clear sentence in a statute and being forced to argue FIRST that it does SAY and MEAN that which is written in B/W on the page with some of these folks. Then to get into the policy discussion of the implication of that truth or fact.

    And I feel this is deliberate, a *we make our own TRUTH* version of reality that is being foisted on everything these folks speak to without regard to any objectivity as to the underlying nature of the harm and consequences of ignoring the real facts and reality out there. Such that one can’t believe in anything they present, nor trust their ability to hold forth a substantive discussion on anything.

    It is this which makes me feel the most disheartening, abject disgust of their control of our government and policies OR of holding out any Hope of ever reaching a mutual ground for cooperative policy agreements with a *BASE* of like minded folks such as this and having all branches of government under their heel.

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  14. Anonymous12:38 PM

    While liberals are often blasted for holding all moral truths as subjective, conservatives have been very successful at bludgeoning our media into accepting a similarly subjective view of facts. Any statement of fact, by necessity, is seen as favoring one party over another. This is painted as "partisan" journalism. (I'm reminded of Colbert on the Daily Show - "John the facts have an anti-Bush bias.") To avoid this claim, more often than not the MSM will simply quote a political figure from each side of the issue - we report, you decide. The right has been very successful in blurring the line between what is pure opinion, where a quote from both sides is certainly relevant, and what is factual information, where research is much more important than a quote from two opposing sides. Until we can reclaim that distinction, connecting the dots will remain far out of the MSM's grasp.

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  15. Wilson:

    Before you swallow more of your foot by calling me a liar, try reading my post again...

    I stated that the government performs surveillance of terrorists for two purposes - gathering intelligence and gathering evidence for criminal prosecutions.

    Your quote from Mr. Bush does not state for which purpose he wishes to use FISA. Nothing about that statement contradicts the truth of the matter.

    We have learned from the NYT and WP that the WH has not used FISA for intelligence gathering but has used FISA extensively for gathering criminal evidence.

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  16. "I don't believe it's any coincidence that it takes someone like Glenn Greenwald, who has both a constitutional legal background, and a talent for writing, to frame such discussions in a way that the average joe (like me) can understand what is at stake. This isn't an arguement that breaks itself down into a 15 second sound bite."

    This is a good point, however I'm not sure it's the bottom line. An issue like the Patriot Act/FISA seems to me to be EXTREMELY simple, and Anonymous Liberal's question about "why bother going to the trouble of amending a law the President has no intention of following?" describes the issue perfectly.

    It's frustrating enough to see the way Scott McClellan or the President himself lies or simply refuses to answer valid questions at press conferences, but why these questions aren't asked by more journalists in their articles seems a tragedy to me.

    Jeff

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  17. mtyson:

    Journalists for the most part, aren't trained to understand what in many cases are fairly complicated legal issues. Thus, being pressed for time, under deadlines, they hit the high points, and don't connect the dots.

    This is right. Moreover, journalists have learned that when they cover litigation, they can look at pleadings and briefs. Then they go to each side and ask what the case is about, and extract a few quotations apiece, and turn that into a story without having to understand the legal issues. 10% effort gets you 90% of the story; it takes an awful lot of work to really understand the legal issues, and it doesn't make the story much better. The only people who notice are those who kinda know the issues already, and there aren't usually that many of them.

    Then you get to questions about how statutes are being amended, and it's a different ballgame. You don't have the pleadings and briefs -- you have a welter of amendments to statutes in other places. Even the well-intentioned throw up their hands.

    Blogs can and should fill this gap.

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  18. Anonymous12:49 PM

    Excellent Post A.L.


    Pres. Bush says:

    ”Surveillance of communications is another essential tool to pursue and stop terrorists. The existing law [FISA] was written in the era of rotary telephones. This new law I sign today [which amends FISA] will allow surveillance of all communications used by terrorists, including e-mails, the Internet, and cell phones. As of today, we'll be able to better meet the technological challenges posed by this proliferation of communications technology.”

    My question to Bart is,

    Why is President Bush aiding the enemy?

    Why are you, Bart, not screaming for the Presidents head?

    He clearly states what type of surveillances would be utilized. I guess your Al-Qaeda thinks that “we only sneak in to their caves in the middle of the night and physically put bugs in their phones” defense was demolished by the commander-in-chief years before the Risen article.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, this administration can declassify anything they want, whenever they want, if it protects their asses.

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  19. Anonymous Liberal said...

    Bart,

    You're very confused. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, as its name suggests, was passed in order to regulate the use of surveillance for intelligence gathering purposes, not criminal prosecutions.


    I agree. However, its Congress' intent is entirely irrelevant because it lacks the power to limit or eliminate the President's plenary authority as CiC to perform warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. Specifically, Article I neither grants Congress the authority to itself conduct intelligence gathering or to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority.

    For example, Congress can no more direct military intelligence gathering by enacting FISA than the President can sign an executive order enacting a spending bill. Each branch has plenary powers and intelligence gathering is one of the President's powers.

    In anticipation that you will whip out the Young case, Justice Jackson's test in that case only applies to situations where the Executive and Congress share concurrent power over a matter like property seizure. Congress has no concurrent power over intelligence gathering.

    The Congressional record indicates that Congress was aware that it was reaching with FISA and there was a fair amount of discussion about what to do if the courts found the provision unconstitutional.

    In other words, the distinction you are trying to make between criminal prosecution and intelligence gathering makes no sense at all. The reason we have two statutes (FISA and Title III) is because Congress already took into consideration this distinction.

    The case law which I cited made this distinction based its analysis of Article II and the 4th Amendment. Congress does not have the power to amend the Constitution by enacting FISA.

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  20. yekaren:

    Nearly all of my posts are in response to a blog or another post directed to me. I respond to, agree or rebut the issues which you folks raise. That is the epitome of "good faith" response.

    Just because you do not want to accept the facts or the law which I present in my posts does not mean my posts are given in "bad faith."

    BTW, your quoting Paul Krugman whining about objective truth is a hoot. Spotting Krugman's misquotes, distortions and lies has become a major sport in the blogosphere...

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  21. Anonymous1:04 PM

    Bart says:

    ”Specifically, Article I neither grants Congress the authority to itself conduct intelligence gathering or to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority”


    What part of Article II gives the President authority to abrogate the Constitutional right’s of US citizens?

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  22. Well - what we are seeing is that it has become a dispute over *facts* and *truths* for conservatives to argue--

    and when they fail to win on that, it's the poor argumentation and style that fails then--

    which then leads to the personal attacks, and when that fails to sway the day --

    Now it becomes a "we will just change the rules til we WIN' (a la the Bill Frist various versions of a Nuclear Option - and this most recent threat to change the bi-partisan formation of the Intell Committee.)

    Those who believe in the fact-based world (and don't pretend that quote about "we are an empire, making our reality" is some anomaly here!) and prefer discussions on the merits of those facts under a set of understood *rules* are justifiably dismayed at the outright and flagrant GOP attempts to subvert the rules and a throw ALL principles overboard to WIN.

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  23. Propulgate said...

    Bart says: ”Specifically, Article I neither grants Congress the authority to itself conduct intelligence gathering or to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority”

    What part of Article II gives the President authority to abrogate the Constitutional right’s of US citizens?


    Ah, another "When did you last beat your wife?" question...

    The answer of course is none.

    The cases which I cited unanimously held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from conducting warrantless intelligence gathering. However, they strongly implied that the President needs to obtain warrants to gather evidence for a criminal trial against the targets of the intelligence gathering.

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  24. Anonymous1:42 PM

    Bart says:

    ”The cases which I cited unanimously held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from conducting warrantless intelligence gathering. however, they strongly implied that the President needs to obtain warrants to gather evidence for a criminal trial against the targets of the intelligence gathering.”

    I will review the cases you cited, but that doesn’t change the facts, because even if your cited cases don’t bar the President from conducting “warrantless intelligence gathering” (with regard to the 4th Amendment), does not the FISA statute take care of any ambiguity with regard to the need to obtain warrants?

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  25. Bart said:

    However, its Congress' intent is entirely irrelevant because it lacks the power to limit or eliminate the President's plenary authority as CiC to perform warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. Specifically, Article I neither grants Congress the authority to itself conduct intelligence gathering or to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority.

    I asked you these questions on another thread, and you never responded. Choosing to believe for the moment that you are posting with the best of intentions, I'll try again.

    Why do you think that the President's power as CIC under Article II, Section 2, gives him unfettered power to take actions with regard to, e.g., "foreign agents" within the country? Is there anything at all suggesting that the framers thought this way, or are you simply arguing that in the 21st century we need to adopt this as a constitutional principle? Why do you think this is a "fact" rather than your own personal opinion?

    Why do you choose to interpret Congress's powers under Article I, Section 8, so as to eliminate Congress's power to set rules for the use of military force, as clearly envisioned by the framers? Under what principle do you think it's appropriate to supplant the text of the Constitution to this end?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous1:49 PM

    Let’s reprise a recent comment exchange with Hypatia before we go gaily off to slam dunk the Republicans with the NSA issue that is black and white for anyone who is not a moronic, uninformed Bushbot (if several commenters here are to be believed). In that exchange, I said:
    “...Just when Mr. Greenwald has done such an excellent job of portraying the Bush Administration in Gestapo-like innuendo and “possible” civil rights violations, six reports by the Justice Department's independent inspector general comes out and, well.... don’t go read this if you want to have a nice day. Seriously. Don’t believe me? Try these actual quotes:
    “...going back to what Sensenbrenner calls the Patriot Act's "stellar record", one would could argue that it was stellar despite at least 30 possibilities for abuse.
    “Zero. That's the number of substantiated USA Patriot Act civil liberties violations. Extensive congressional oversight found no violations.”
    “The good news is, no one apparently took advantage of those opportunities (although in the era of BushHitler Chimpy McHalliburton I'm not sure why [/snark]).”
    Now just watch those “reasonable” Democrats cite this study when they resist Mr. Greenwald’s call for a full hue and cry on the NSA scandal...”
    Hypatia breathlessly responds by erecting her own firewall:
    “notherbob2 breathlessly posts:.. don’t go read this if you want to have a nice day.

    Um, that post at QandO is about The Patriot Act. If Glenn has posted about the PA per se, I don't recall it (he has addressed amendments - both passed, and proposed but unenacted - to FISA wrt (sic) the PA).Myself, I've never had much critical to say about it, and certainly not since the issue of Executive law-breaking arose...
    That's what the discussion is about, notherbob2. By definition, Bush's law-breaking means he has violated the statutory rights of every person on whom he has surveilled sans warant (sic), in violation of FISA. This has little to nothing to do with The PA.”

    Yes,bringing this up now is a gotcha on Hypatia. That is not the point at all. [heh, although I like a good gotcha, even when I am the one who is “got”; what can I say?] There are several points to be made about this: 1) Changing the “facts” from Yes to No to amplify and reinforce your message is self-defeating unless you are just interested in pumping someone up to write a check. 2) Ignoring major talking points on the other side instead of dealing with them is also self-defeating. 3) If you get all of your information on a given subject from one openly (and proudly) biased source you are going to come to some ridiculous conclusions. See the comments here bemoaning the stupid majority that does not seem to be exercised about FISA violations, even if they think the President broke the law. The elections play out in the real world. If your message is not tailored for that world it will not carry the day. Yes, messages crafted for “liberal Lalaland” will raise money and pump up the base. Something a little stronger is required for the real world of an election.
    Now, ask yourself, if the Bush Administration is corrupt, evil and conniving (as Mr. Greenwald avers) and had 30 opportunities to mis-use the PA, how’s come they get an A+ from the attorney general? Doesn’t matter, because Hypatia says there is a firewall between FISA and PA? Or is the attorney general report a major refutation of Mr. Greenwald’s insinuations about sinister violations of FISA? If the Anonymous Liberal is correct and FISA and the PA or inextricably entwined, the attorney general report is a major problem that needs to be dealt with. Pooh-poohing isn’t going to cut it.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Propulgate said...

    I will review the cases you cited, but that doesn’t change the facts, because even if your cited cases don’t bar the President from conducting “warrantless intelligence gathering” (with regard to the 4th Amendment), does not the FISA statute take care of any ambiguity with regard to the need to obtain warrants?


    FISA cannot constitutionally limit or eliminate the President's Article II intelligence gathering power. I summarize why in my third post in reply to Anonymous Liberal.

    ReplyDelete
  28. If the Anonymous Liberal is correct and FISA and the PA or inextricably entwined, the attorney general report is a major problem that needs to be dealt with.

    I don't think very many in Congress have any idea what the administration is doing in violation of FISA's express terms, and so the idea that we should rely on congressional oversight to protect civil liberties instead of a court to issue warrants leaves me with no comfort.

    I find it unsurpassingly bizarre that a conservative would say, "never mind the courts -- we can just rely on Congress to protect us." But if you can reduce any legal or policy problem to a political one, I suppose it gets very easy to figure out which side you're on.

    I don't know enough to know whether I'm concerned about what the administration is doing to civil liberties as they violate FISA. At this point, I'm worried about what they're doing to the constitutional separation of powers.

    ReplyDelete
  29. It appears that the Supreme Court knows how to read Article I, Section 8:

    "The Constitution grants Congress the power to 'provide for the common Defence,' '[t]o raise and support Armies,' and '[t]o provide and maintain a Navy.' Art. I, §8, cls. 1,
    12-13. Congress' power in this area 'is broad and sweeping,' O'Brien, 391 U. S., at 377 ...."

    Rumsfeld v. FAIR, Inc., slip op. at 8.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Oh..and BART:

    Speaking of Paul Krugman I make note of the fact that his March 3 piece "George the Unready" contained the following *correction*-

    "Correction

    On Jan. 30 I cited an article in The American Prospect that reported that Indian tribes who hired Jack Abramoff had reduced their contributions to Democrats by 9 percent. Dwight Morris, who prepared the study on which the article was based, says on The American Prospect's blog that "there is no statistically valid way to calculate this number given the way the data were compiled." The American Prospect was sloppy, and so was I for not checking its methodology."


    Which is exactly the POINT Glenn and so many other have made repeatedly about the bloggosphere debates - that it's not that a pundit can't err - but are they WILLING to write a correction!! (Clearly Krugman can and has done so - even a week ago.)

    But Glenn has also pointed how few conservative pundits he's run across EVER run retractions or corrections.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous2:24 PM

    Um, Ms. McL, one of the “rules” of argumentation is that when one quotes the opposition, one should quote them accurately and not twist the mis-quote to create a strawperson before mowing it down. Yes, Ms. Dowd of the NYT does what you have done, but that doesn’t make it OK. The “quote” that you (mis) use does not contain any reference to “we are an empire”. So, right off, you have a problem with your “facts”. Not a good start for a commenter who emphasizes the importance of facts. I sympathize with your problem understanding those stupid conservatives who cannot get their “facts” right. I know, I know, they should read and believe everything in the NYT (and very little else) and they would then have a very clear, consistent picture of “the facts”. Unfortunately, they insist on using other sources. What is one to do? By the way, politics is pretty much about winning and declaiming about “rules” reminds one of a famous movie scene in “Butch Cassidy..”.
    Oh, and as a NYT reader, how is the civil war in Iraq going?

    ReplyDelete
  32. t.s. said...

    Bart said: However, its Congress' intent is entirely irrelevant because it lacks the power to limit or eliminate the President's plenary authority as CiC to perform warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. Specifically, Article I neither grants Congress the authority to itself conduct intelligence gathering or to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority.

    I asked you these questions on another thread, and you never responded.


    :::sigh:::

    I have addressed these questions in about three dozen prior posts and even posted a full blown legal brief.

    However, what is one more time among friends...

    Why do you think that the President's power as CIC under Article II, Section 2, gives him unfettered power to take actions with regard to, e.g., "foreign agents" within the country?

    I have no idea what you mean by "unfettered power to take actions." Let's instead limit this to the power at issue.

    Article II, Section 2(1) makes the President CiC of the military. No section of Article I grants the same power to Congress.

    By its plain language, Article II, Section 2(1) gives the President as CiC the plenary or sole power to make all command decisions concerning the direction of the military.

    Intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States has always been considered an incident of military affairs.

    Thus, President as CiC the plenary or sole power to make all command decisions concerning the direction of who, where and when the government directs ntelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States.

    Is there anything at all suggesting that the framers thought this way, or are you simply arguing that in the 21st century we need to adopt this as a constitutional principle? Why do you think this is a "fact" rather than your own personal opinion?

    I am a textualist and only use original intent as a fall back if a section of text is unclear. I don't believe the meaning of military command is unclear.

    If a word has a plain meaning, that meaning is a fact and not an opinion.

    I don't recall any discussion about intelligence gathering in the Federalist Papers or the debates concerning the Constitution. However, Presidents have been conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents since the beginning.

    Why do you choose to interpret Congress's powers under Article I, Section 8, so as to eliminate Congress's power to set rules for the use of military force, as clearly envisioned by the framers?

    Article I, Section 8 refers to several specific powers of Congress over the military. However, none of then confer to Congress command authority to direct and conduct intelligence gathering. I am also unaware of any case law creating an unenumerated Congressional power to do so.

    You may be referring to Congress's enumerated power to pass laws like the UCMJ to regulate the individual conduct and discipline of the service members. However, that cannot be shoehorned in to grant Congress command power to decide where, when and how intelligence gathering to proceed.

    In short, you are assuming Congressional powers which simply do not exist.

    ReplyDelete
  33. t.s. said...
    It appears that the Supreme Court knows how to read Article I, Section 8:

    "The Constitution grants Congress the power to 'provide for the common Defence,' '[t]o raise and support Armies,' and '[t]o provide and maintain a Navy.' Art. I, §8, cls. 1, 12-13. Congress' power in this area 'is broad and sweeping,' O'Brien, 391 U. S., at 377 ...."

    Rumsfeld v. FAIR, Inc., slip op. at 8.


    So?

    This means Congress has the power to pass legislation to create and then finance the NSA to 'provide for the common Defense.'

    This provision does not grant Congress the command authority to decide where, when and how to use the NSA any more than it permits Congress to develop plans for amphibious invasion.

    In short, Congress provides and finances the military. The President commands it.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Bart spews yet again:The cases which I cited unanimously held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from conducting warrantless intelligence gathering. However, they strongly implied that the President needs to obtain warrants to gather evidence for a criminal trial against the targets of the intelligence gathering.

    The issue is not -- got that, not -- the 4th Am. The issue is FISA, a law passed by Congress and which requires, inter alia, that the Executive obtain FISA warrants when it conducts physical searches or intercepts the communications of persons on U.S. soil, in the national security context.

    As I've documented and made clear here multiple times (and which you consistently have ignored), in his Hamdi dissent, Justice Clarence Thomas explicitly declared that Congress shares power with the Executive in the national security context, and that he might well have voted against the Executive in Hamdi had Congress seen fit to legislate procedural protections for citizens caught warring against the nation on foreign battlefields.

    Now if, as Thomas implied, Congress may compel the Executive to comply with procedural protections in the matter of captured combatants, how can you possibly think Thomas and a majority of the High Court would not also agree that Congress may require warrants for national security searches that take place in the country?

    ReplyDelete
  35. And Further BART:

    As to most of your Q&A and this:

    "FISA cannot constitutionally limit or eliminate the President's Article II intelligence gathering power. I summarize why in my third post in reply to Anonymous Liberal."

    Where have you been all these weeks anyway? This is the issue for a judicial resolution precisely because these points have never been directly answered. Yet you keep making what I can only describe as bald-faced assertions with no legal underpiningfrom any current cases directly on issue (as to date.)

    Since FISA has never been declared unconstitutional - IT is the LAW! and claiming some ART II powers by the Executive can not -in and of itself - with no judicial determination - unilaterally invalidate that law NOR declare it unconstitutional.

    Moreover, the assertions of ART II powers you keep propounding have also NEVER been addressed in relation to the 4th Amendment's ABSOLUTE prohibition against warrantless searches that are not bouyed by a judicial determination of *probable cause*.

    What this begs for is some Statutory interpretation - and SORRY Bart, but the Executive is not empowered or entitled to do that job unilaterally either under our Constitution! And WHY do you think ole Child-In-Chief want to AVOID the Courts or any Judicial determination of this Issue...because it's not likely to go his way.

    If this were SOOooo clear cut - he'd be filing the lawsuit himself.

    ReplyDelete
  36. By its plain language, Article II, Section 2(1) gives the President as CiC the plenary or sole power to make all command decisions concerning the direction of the military.

    This idea that some decisions are "command decisions" that cannot be affected by the exercise of Congress's Article I power is simply bizarre. Take helicopter pilots. Congress has said that women can serve in combat as helicopter pilots, but not as infantrymen. Are you saying that notwithstanding this law, the President can order women into combat as infantrymen? Surely not.

    Intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States has always been considered an incident of military affairs.

    Repetition is not argument. You said something like this before, and I asked you for some support.

    I am a textualist and only use original intent as a fall back if a section of text is unclear. I don't believe the meaning of military command is unclear.

    You have announced that the command of the army and navy also entails wiretapping of people suspected of associated with foreign agents. Why? Because it's 'not unclear.' It's certainly not there in the text, though.

    You say, "However, Presidents have been conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents since the beginning." But this basis for this is what?

    In fact, as I said on the other thread, if you were just going to look at the text of the Constitution, you would have to conclude that the language of the Fourth Amendment requires a warrant. There's nothing in the Fourth Amendment about a national-security exception. So how does a textualist like yourself find a basis for that exception?

    Article I, Section 8 refers to several specific powers of Congress over the military. However, none of then confer to Congress command authority to direct and conduct intelligence gathering.

    No, they're much more general, just as Article II, Section 2, is. How odd that you would construe Article II, Section 2, in such a broad way, and yet adopt a different principle of interpretation when you look at Article I. Is there some basis for that approach in the text?

    You may be referring to Congress's enumerated power to pass laws like the UCMJ to regulate the individual conduct and discipline of the service members. However, that cannot be shoehorned in to grant Congress command power to decide where, when and how intelligence gathering to proceed.

    For a textualist, your attention to the text fades fairly quickly when it comes to considering Congress's powers under Article I. Take another look -- the Constitution doesn't actually refer to an "enumerated power to pass laws like the UCMJ to regulate the individual conduct and discipline of the service members." It uses language (the "text" in "textualism") that is much broader.

    We know, for example, and because the Secretary of the Army recently told us, that it's perfectly legitimate for Congress to tell the Executive Branch that women can serve as helicopter pilots, and not as infantrymen. That's a power to set rules for the military which necessarily limits the President's latitude as CIC. Yet's it's non-controversial, from a political standpoint. You'd hate to think that the difference in the way that conservatives react to the two issues is simply a function of the way that Republican congressmen react to the specific "command decisions" at issue, but the notion is hard to dispel.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Bart,

    Putting aside the fact that your conception of plenary executive power in this area has zero support in either the case law or the text of the constitution, your argument still fails. You write:

    Thus, President as CiC the plenary or sole power to make all command decisions concerning the direction of who, where and when the government directs ntelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States.

    Let's assume this is true. How does FISA in any way impinge upon this power? FISA doesn't tell the executive branch what people to spy on, it merely provides a highly deferential procedure to be followed when conducting the type of surveillance that implicates the constitutional rights of Americans. That kind of military rule-making authority is expressly granted to Congress in the Constitution, which is why no one has serious questioned FISA's constitutionality in the 27 years since it was passed (at least until Bush's political interests entered the equation).

    Second, the NSA is a civilian organization (not military), created by Congress, so it's not at all obvious that the president's CiC powers even apply. As professor Michael Dorf points out, surely Congress, which created the NSA, has the subsidiary power to write rules constraining the agency. If this isn't true, then nearly all modern administrative law is unconstitutional.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous2:49 PM

    notherbob2 writes:Yes,bringing this up now is a gotcha on Hypatia. That is not the point at all. [heh, although I like a good gotcha, even when I am the one who is “got”; what can I say?] There are several points to be made about this: 1) Changing the “facts” from Yes to No to amplify and reinforce your message is self-defeating unless you are just interested in pumping someone up to write a check. 2) Ignoring major talking points on the other side instead of dealing with them is also self-defeating. 3)

    You did not quote me in full. As i recall, I was responding to the claim that Glenn's posts on FISA are undermined by the findings about The Patriot Act ostensibly not having led to any violations of civil liberties. Others had been demanding that Gleen specifically write about The Patriot Act.

    As I said then, Glenn has addressed TPA in the context of its amendments to FISA, including amendments that were not supported by the Adminstration or actually passed (such as Sen. DeWine's). But he has not spent time looking at the provisions that apply, say, to procuring library records, or the myriad other provisions that many civil libertarians have been concerned about.

    This site is the go-to place for Bush's violations of FISA. To repeat myself from the prior thread you refer to: by definition, because Bush is violating FISA, and admits it, he is violating the statutory rights of persons on U.S. soil. And that is true no matter what reports have issued purporting to exonnerate the Adminstration with regard to other TPA provisions.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous2:52 PM

    Good points -- talking about "compartmentalization" of the media is one way to look at it.

    I see this as more of a "lying liars" issue. Distracting people by presenting a series of events as disconnected is misleading and dishonest.

    Its how the NYT can say, "we cover all the news that's fit to print" but they are actually hiding the rel stories.

    Your points are well taken, but this isn't a "sh@t happens" thing -- its how the news is being deliberately managed to keep people ignorent.

    Case in point:

    IS THE CHIMPEROR TRYING TO TURN U.S. PORTS TO DUBAI BECAUSE IF WE ATTACK IRAN WE WILL NEED ACCESS TO THE COUNTRY OF DUBAI AND THE STRATEGIC STRAITS OF HORMUZ?

    http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m21254&hd=0&size=1&l=e

    Given that 70% of country opposes this deal and even repugs are sqawking, this deal makes no sense until you connect the dots.

    Of course, failing to connect the dots isolates the people BEHIND the chimperor's policies from any scutiny.

    IMHO, it is more important to talk about distortion and lies than it is to talk about "compartmentalization"

    ReplyDelete
  40. Karen McL said...

    Where have you been all these weeks anyway?

    I found this Blog about three weeks ago. Glenn does a good job here...

    Bart: "FISA cannot constitutionally limit or eliminate the President's Article II intelligence gathering power. I summarize why in my third post in reply to Anonymous Liberal."

    This is the issue for a judicial resolution precisely because these points have never been directly answered.

    Partially.

    The President's Article II authority to conduct warrantless intelligence collection against foreign groups and their agents in the United States has been confirmed unanimously by the Federal courts of appeal which have reviewed similar cases of electronic eavesdropping and denied cert by the Supremes.

    While the Supremes have yet to rule on this issue, it is unlikely that this much more conservative court will overrule the precedent that the liberal Burger court declined to even review.

    The constitutionality of FISA as it might apply to the President's Article II power has not been the subject of a court holding. However, the FISA court of review in In Re Sealed Case offered some dicta which strongly indicates that it would find that FISA does not apply to the President's Article II power.

    If Senator Specter succeeds in passing legislation allowing the FISA court to review this issue (which is questionable), then it appears that FISA will be found to be limited by the Fisa court of review, if not by the lower FISA court.

    It will be very difficult for the Courts to review this case because a target of the surveillance will have to bring the suit. The only way the target would be aware that he or she was under surveillance would probably be if they were convicted for crimes as a terrorist and then convinced a court on appeal to force the government to disclose if he or she was a target. Several convicted terrorists or terrorist supporters are trying that right now.

    Since FISA has never been declared unconstitutional - IT is the LAW! and claiming some ART II powers by the Executive can not -in and of itself - with no judicial determination - unilaterally invalidate that law NOR declare it unconstitutional.

    The Executive cannot rule on the constitutionality of FISA, but it can ignore FISA as unconstitutional and roll the dice that a court will agree with it if it ever comes to a case. There is no penalty for violating an unconstitutional statute. That is what the President has done.

    Moreover, the assertions of ART II powers you keep propounding have also NEVER been addressed in relation to the 4th Amendment's ABSOLUTE prohibition against warrantless searches that are not bouyed by a judicial determination of *probable cause*.

    Yes they have. All of the cases to which I cited ruled that the 4th Amendment does not apply to warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents.

    And WHY do you think ole Child-In-Chief want to AVOID the Courts or any Judicial determination of this Issue...because it's not likely to go his way. If this were SOOooo clear cut - he'd be filing the lawsuit himself.

    The Courts have long held that they will not accept lawsuits seeking advisory opinions as to whether a statute or activity is constitutional. Unless the plaintiff of a law suit is the subject of the surveillance, the courts are very unlikely to decide this issue.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Hypatia said...

    As I've documented and made clear here multiple times (and which you consistently have ignored), in his Hamdi dissent, Justice Clarence Thomas explicitly declared that Congress shares power with the Executive in the national security context, and that he might well have voted against the Executive in Hamdi had Congress seen fit to legislate procedural protections for citizens caught warring against the nation on foreign battlefields.


    My friend, I have addressed this question from you and others on multiple occasions.

    Congress has the express enumerated power to enact statutes which give the Courts jurisdiction over Writs of Habeus Corpus under different circumstances. That is the power to which Justice Thomas appears to be referring.

    I have no disagreement with Justice Thomas' list of enumerated Congressional powers over military subjects. You will notice that none of them grant Congress command authority over the military or intelligence, nor does Justice Thomas even infer that they do.

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  42. Anonymous3:35 PM

    Bart claims: Congress has the express enumerated power to enact statutes which give the Courts jurisdiction over Writs of Habeus Corpus under different circumstances. That is the power to which Justice Thomas appears to be referring.

    Codswollop. Read it yourself.

    Bart, it is amazing, really, your capacity for mischaracterizing the law and/or the Opinions of Supreme Court justices. Clarence Thomas did not, in his Hamdi dissent, identify or enumerate powers , much less that of habeas corpus, pursuant only to which Congress could provide procedural protections to Mr. Hamdi. Thomas merely wrote:

    I do not think that the Federal Government’s war powers can be balanced away by this Court. Arguably, Congress could provide for additional procedural protections, but until it does, we have no right to insist upon them.

    Thomas further noted:

    Congress, to be sure, has a substantial and essential role in both foreign affairs and national security. But it is crucial to recognize that judicial interference in these domains destroys the purpose of vesting primary responsibility in a unitary Executive…

    Thomas feels the Court cannot interfere with whatever detention decisions the Executive makes about Mr. Hamdi. But he strongly suggests Congress could, and he does not tie that to the Writ of Habeas Corpus.

    ReplyDelete
  43. bart said...

    It will be very difficult for the Courts to review this case because a target of the surveillance will have to bring the suit. The only way the target would be aware that he or she was under surveillance would probably be if they were convicted for crimes as a terrorist and then convinced a court on appeal to force the government to disclose if he or she was a target. Several convicted terrorists or terrorist supporters are trying that right now.
    . . .

    The Executive cannot rule on the constitutionality of FISA, but it can ignore FISA as unconstitutional and roll the dice that a court will agree with it if it ever comes to a case. There is no penalty for violating an unconstitutional statute. That is what the President has done.


    In other words, since it may be very difficult to bring a case in which the courts could rule on the constitutionality of FISA or the propriety of the Administration's actions in blatantly choosing to ignore FISA's requirements, the President may choose to continue ignoring FISA as long as he remains in office. Assuming that FISA is constitutional, the President then would be free to continue to engage in the criminal violations of FISA that have been going on for years now with no penalty, ever. There is nothing in the text of the Constitution that gives the President the power to engage in criminal conduct with impunity simply by declaring that he thinks the statute making that conduct illegal is unconstitutional. I think the Founders would be horrified at the very idea that such a thing could ever occur.

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  44. peachkfc:

    In other words, since it may be very difficult to bring a case in which the courts could rule on the constitutionality of FISA or the propriety of the Administration's actions in blatantly choosing to ignore FISA's requirements, the President may choose to continue ignoring FISA as long as he remains in office. Assuming that FISA is constitutional, the President then would be free to continue to engage in the criminal violations of FISA that have been going on for years now with no penalty, ever. There is nothing in the text of the Constitution that gives the President the power to engage in criminal conduct with impunity simply by declaring that he thinks the statute making that conduct illegal is unconstitutional. I think the Founders would be horrified at the very idea that such a thing could ever occur.


    There are two branches which may provide checks and balances on the Executive, not just one.

    Because we haven't discovered even one person who has been harmed by the NSA Program's bypass of FISA, the courts are unlikely to get involved.

    However, if Congress can prove that the NSA Program actually breaks a law and infringes on their constitutional powers, Congress can vote to defund the program and impeach the President.

    However, nearly no one on either side of the aisle wants to stop the Program or proposes impeachment.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Bart,

    You missed my post at 2:42 PM.

    t.s.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous4:21 PM

    Bart: So you think no one on either side of the aisle is talking impeachment? As usual, you are so wrong. Bush supporter Rick Moran is extremely worried about GOP prospects in the next elections, given Bush’s gross unpopularity, the debacle in Iraq, and a trial balloon being floated for troop withdrawals. And he sees impeachment in the works:

    Forty open seats with Republicans probably defending the overwhelming majority of them could – could – spell disaster for the party in November.

    This scenario doesn’t take into account an energized Democratic party and a depressed Republican one. Even in so-called “safe” GOP seats (margin of victory in 2002 at +55%) it doesn’t take a soothsayer to tell you that a switch of as little as 7-8 thousand votes in a few districts that are now considered “safe” could spell the difference in who controls the House in January, 2007.

    And that, dear readers, would mean that George W. Bush would face at the very least impeachment proceedings in the Judiciary Committee. A Democratic Congress would have Representative John Conyers as Chairman of that Committee and the frothing-at-the-mouth conspiracy nut already has an impeachment report all written up and ready to present to the Committee. It will probably be the first order of business for that Committee come January.

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  47. As a general matter, impeachment is a lousy idea. We want the CIC, whoever it is, to be conducting a foreign policy in cooperation with Congress, not inviting Congress to resolve constitutional disagreements through impeachment. And as if the legal system weren't twisted to political ends enough already, you're proposing that a legal question -- the extent of constitutionally enumerated powers -- be converted into a political one.

    I know this is a crazy thought to voice with this president, but is it just possible that we could treat questions like this one on their own merits, rather than politicizing everything?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous4:32 PM

    I'm pleased to see Anonymous Liberal and Glenn join forces- I've found them to be the two most consistently excellent political bloggers on the web. Keep up the good work.

    ReplyDelete
  49. What's going on here is that the Press has been cowed by a bullying conservative autocracy. I have not found the article, but Editors and Publishers wrote about the schooling and training of many reporters as being the fault. They simply do not want to spend the time to research information that is out there. On top of this, I suggest, they don't have the analytical skills or ability to form a perspicuous, historical overview of their material.

    It used to be said that what editors looked for in reporters was not only writing skills but also a background in historical research. Why? Because "connecting the dots" involves that ability to sift through facts and create a coherent account from diverse materials.

    In view of these facts, I think that bloggers must shoulder the burden that mainstream journalists seem either unwilling or incapable of undertaking. This effort would involve a coordinated, collaborative effort between various bloggers who'd commit to working on one story until it was done. This method could be used in a multi-track effort. You just need the project management skills to get it done.

    PS If I had the resources, I'd investigate a lawsuit against this administration for propagandizing the American public. There is actually a law against this. The material seems to be there--from the spin and manipulation of facts leading up the war--to lies and distortions made of the NSA story. Anyone interested in discussing how this might unfold, contact me.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous4:52 PM

    hypatia says:

    How does FISA in any way impinge upon this power? FISA doesn't tell the executive branch what people to spy on, it merely provides a highly deferential procedure to be followed when conducting the type of surveillance that implicates the constitutional rights of Americans. That kind of military rule-making authority is expressly granted to Congress in the Constitution, which is why no one has serious questioned FISA's constitutionality in the 27 years since it was passed (at least until Bush's political interests entered the equation).
    ---

    First of all, I think the ACLU will disagree with your assessment as they have waged a long war against FISA.

    How can you claim with a straight face that FISA doesn't tell the executive branch which people to spy on? Why do you think the FISA Court of Review had to convene? They were denying warrants on people the NSA wanted to follow.
    A side point to this is AL says the Patriot Act and FISA are one and the same, yet the FISA court judges refused at first to even consider the Patriot Act as having any effect on FISA at all. They had to be court ordered to follow the amendments.

    You can bet that if this case ever went to the Supreme Court there would be great discussion as to whether the judicial branch has the authority to tell the exective branch whom it can spy on in cases where one party is a foreign agent or a foreign power.

    ReplyDelete
  51. qsht.s. said...

    This idea that some decisions are "command decisions" that cannot be affected by the exercise of Congress's Article I power is simply bizarre. Take helicopter pilots. Congress has said that women can serve in combat as helicopter pilots, but not as infantrymen. Are you saying that notwithstanding this law, the President can order women into combat as infantrymen? Surely not.


    First, do you know the basis on which Congress enacted this rule? I don't off hand. If I had to guess, it was probably pursuant to a spending bill or a bill creating the job categories in the military. These are not command decisions.

    Second, you imply that the President may not make a command decision to use a woman slotted as a helicopter pilot as infantry pursuant to his command prerogatives. I would argue that he can. Commanders have often used non-combat personnel in combat roles whenever the situation dictated the need. I doubt a court would hold otherwise.

    Bart: Intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States has always been considered an incident of military affairs.

    You say, "However, Presidents have been conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents since the beginning." But this basis for this is what?

    Repetition is not argument. You said something like this before, and I asked you for some support.


    Once again, the DOJ white paper does a pretty good job summarizing this history...

    http://files.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf

    I am a textualist and only use original intent as a fall back if a section of text is unclear. I don't believe the meaning of military command is unclear.

    You have announced that the command of the army and navy also entails wiretapping of people suspected of associated with foreign agents. Why? Because it's 'not unclear.' It's certainly not there in the text, though.


    The history of the military use of signals intelligence is discussed above.

    As for the text, "command" is basically defined as to give orders directing acts or inaction. Thus, the CiC has the power to direct the military and its intelligence gathering functions.

    By definition, that means the President or his designees directs the intelligence agencies as to whom to collect intelligence against, at what times and under what circumstances.

    Under the terms of its text, FISA would limit or eliminate the Presidents command authority over intelligence by restricting intelligence gathering to those targets for whom the President can offer probable cause proving that the target is a foreign agent. If the President cannot offer that level of evidence, his powers to gather intelligence are stripped from him.

    In fact, as I said on the other thread, if you were just going to look at the text of the Constitution, you would have to conclude that the language of the Fourth Amendment requires a warrant. There's nothing in the Fourth Amendment about a national-security exception. So how does a textualist like yourself find a basis for that exception?

    The 4th Amendment is not an absolute prohibition. Warrants are only required for "unreasonable searches and seizures." The courts have found dozens of searches and seizures which are reasonable and do not require a warrant. Forign intelligence gathering is one of these.

    Foreign intelligence gathering does not implicate most of the concerns of the 4th Amendment. To start, evidence gained in such intelligence gathering in not used against the targets in criminal prosecution. Therefore, you are left with a general privacy concern of the American citizenry. However, that privacy concern is minimal because intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents is not targeting US citizens unless they are acting as foreign agents.

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  52. Hypatia said...

    Bart: So you think no one on either side of the aisle is talking impeachment? As usual, you are so wrong. Bush supporter Rick Moran is extremely worried about GOP prospects in the next elections, given Bush’s gross unpopularity, the debacle in Iraq, and a trial balloon being floated for troop withdrawals. And he sees impeachment in the works...


    This is a campaign spin of the Elephants. They know from personal experience impeaching Clinton that impeachment is not popular with voters. Consequently, they are telling the press and the voters that the Donkeys will resort to impeachment if they win a majority in 2006.

    The Donkeys are not stupid. They have been avoiding the "I" word religiously during this "scandal."

    ReplyDelete
  53. Michaelgalien said...

    What I do not understand is this: Is it not Congress' own duty to make sure a statute (a law) isn't unconstitutional?


    Yes and they generally do a pretty good job. However, the case reporters are filled with instances when Congress overreached and the courts found their laws unconstitutional.

    Besides that; if a president thinks a certain statute (law) is unconstitutional, aren't there any legal ways in which he is able to question its constitutionality (instead of just breaking that statutel)? In other words: if congress passes legislation that is unconstitutional, what means are there for a president to fight that (legislation)?

    The President can veto the law unless it was enacted before his term. That is about it, though.

    I find it hard to assume that the only way of a President to do question the constitutionality of for instance FISA, is by just breaking it and hoping he will be able to convince the USC. Because, if he fails doing so, he broke the Constitution himself and thus he will be impeached...

    I would support an Amendment to the Constitution to allow the courts to give advisory opinions. Several state constitutions give courts this power.

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  54. Anonymous5:07 PM

    Welcome, AL!

    When do "criminal acts" and "terrorists acts" blend into one?

    After they do, when do "criminal/terrorists" acts and "acts of lawful civil protest" blend into one?

    After they do, when do "acts of lawful civil protest" and "voicing an opinion that one morally objects to certain policies of a government supported entity or group" blend into one?

    After these are all blended into one big milkshake that is seen as a single entity, does the President have the "inherent powers" in wartime to do whatever he deems fit, including engaging in unlawful activity, to ensure this "milkshake" doesn't threaten the "national security" of the American People?

    (Before I go on, anyone who is unfamiliar with the propaganda techniques which characterize a large part of modern warfare, who has no idea how the $75,000,000 Condeleeza Rice is requesting to support Iranian "insurgents" will be spent, please don't read any further.)

    Where, exactly, does the 44 BILLION dollar intelligence budget, a figure made available to the press for the first time recently (as pointed out by a commenter on a previous thread and which breaks down to a little less than one BILLION dollars per state) really go?

    Is it reasonable to assume that a good hunk of it would be spent going after the one group which the government considers the "most serious domestic terrorism threat"?

    Well, who exactly does the government consider that group to be?

    Are you ready?

    Animal rights groups.

    Yup. The NYTimes reports that "a federal counterterrorism official recently told Congress that animal rights groups pose the nation's most serious domestic terrorism threat."

    As someone who is extremely familiar with (as a private individual and not as a member of any group) and informed about the broad, grassroots coalition of people (the vast majority of whom also do not belong to any "group" but who support the legitimate goals of those groups) who simply love animals and are concerned about their welfare, people who wish to see various legislation measures enacted to assure more humane treatment of all animals, I can assure you these people are the most law-biding people you could ever meet. Because of their compassionate, heightened concern for the plight of others, including animals, they are far less likely to want see a human being harmed than probably any other group, including religious groups.

    But they do pose a real threat to our present form of government. They threaten the $$$$ of the meat industry and of companies like Tyson, companies who engage in unspeakably inhumane treatment of the animals they slaughter, and I am not talking about the mere fact of slaughtering, which is a godsend for these poor creatures, but the tragic conditions in which they are held before slaughter, and the barbaric methods of the slaughter itself.

    These companies, of course, are among the few biggest donors to both political parties.

    Animal lovers (economically) also threaten the drug companies, and the research departments of certain universities. The majority of the increasingly large grants that are given to drug companies and universitites to conduct "scientific experiments" on animals finds its way into the pockets of certain individuals who head up those divisions.

    Hundreds of millions of dollars in "scientific grants" are earmarked for bogus studies to fund "protocols" studying ludicrous investigations into the psychology of mice or another animals, studies which have absolutely nothing to do with scientific advances in medicine. But they have a lot to do with the THEFT of our tax dollars. (BTW, new developments in DNA research and stem cell research have all but demolished the argument that any animal experimentation is necessary, or even effective, in advancing medical knowledge as relates to human beings.)

    These grants and other subsidies are funnels through which money is siphoned off from legitimate government programs and directed into the pockets of certain mega powerful companies whose dollars put people like Bill Clinton and George Bush in office.

    I mention warfare, because as all true animal lovers who are familiar with the real facts know, those few "animal liberation activists" who get all the publicity when they commit the(rare but I predict increasingly common) acts of unlawful, violent protest, publicity which turns off the uninformed public and makes them unsupportive of the real, admirable goals of these groups, are government "plants" who are engaged in yet another facet of the government's endless propaganda war.

    Their deployment by goverment to infilitrate otherwise peaceful groups, take over their legigitmate agendas, and to inflame and mobilize the more impressionable, susceptible members of those groups is simply a part of the government's tactical warfare as relates to these issues.

    I wasn't suprised recently to see news stories reporting how the FBI has been showing up at and "monitoring" peaceful assemblies like Vegan Day Gatherings and PETA gatherings.

    I wasn't surprised to see that the this Administration has expanded the role of the "Secret Service" into that more approaching a Secret Police Force with expanded capacities to monitor and "take down names" at public gatherings, a new role which has nothing to do with protecting the safety of the President or other present or former public officials or their families.

    It appears that the functions this new Secret Police force primarily "monitors" are peaceful gatherings of people whose views threaten the meat industry, the drug companies, the "scientific animal experimentation" community, and all the other entities which are the recipients of a huge amount of government favors, both monetary and otherwise, in exchange for the huge amount of dollars they donate to the politicians who protect their interests.

    We have often asked on this blog "Who is behind Bush, behind Cheney, behind Rumsfeld, what is the engine which powers the machine"?

    Only part of it is the military/industrial complex, and how many protests can you think of where people turned out to "protest" the "military/industrial complex?"

    I am not aware of a single such organized "protest."

    The other part of the power behind the machine is the powerful group of companies which consitute a large percentage of the giant food industry, the drug industry, and the "scientic community", whose economic interests are seen to be threatened by a growing public awareness of, and concern about the abuses in which those companies and industries are engaged.

    So how much of that 44 BILLION is really being spent to fund this covert army of government "plants" who infiltrate peaceful groups of empathetic citizens, hijack their agendas, engage in phony, highly publicized acts of violent protest, and thus blacken the eye of these groups in the public eye?

    How much of the 44 BILLION dollar budget is spent on spying on and squashing this country's "most serious domestic terrorism threat"?

    And does the President's "inherent power" in wartime that he believes allows him engage in illegal activites allow the government to use those "inherent powers" to monitor, eavesdrop on, imprison, terrorize, deceitfully mischaracterize and otherwise attempt to stifle and punish a large, lawbiding, peaceful group of citizens bound only by a mutual love of animals and a desire to see those animals treated humanely?

    Obviously. Because they are the "nation's most serious domestic terrorism threat."

    And THAT is one of the main reasons why we are being asked to give up our civil liberties and trash our Constitution.

    To protect companies like Tyson Foods and to keep the gravy train rolling.

    What was that about Al Quaeda again? Oh, I see. I guess they are not as much of a "serious domestic national security threat" as PETA and people who don't eat meat.

    And the various media, as usual, are the whorish, complicit "useful idiots" who allow the government to get away with this.

    ReplyDelete
  55. First, do you know the basis on which Congress enacted this [helicopter pilots] rule? I don't off hand. If I had to guess, it was probably pursuant to a spending bill or a bill creating the job categories in the military. These are not command decisions.
    If they are not "command decisions" -- a term that is apparently your own gift to constitutional doctrine -- they constrain the President's "command decisions," which was my point. Congress, in the valid exercise of its constitutional powers, can establish law constraining the decisions made by the President as CIC. FISA is just one example. Suppose it was "a bill creating the job categories in the military." So what?
    Second, you imply that the President may not make a command decision to use a woman slotted as a helicopter pilot as infantry pursuant to his command prerogatives. I would argue that he can.
    This administration says otherwise. "'We have opinions on the law, but it's now the law and we will abide by it,' [Army Secretary Francis] Harvey said in an interview last month."

    Intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States has always been considered an incident of military affairs [as summarized by this DOJ white paper.
    Maybe you could point me to a page, rather than to a 42-page document, because I can't figure out what you are referring to.

    As for the text, "command" is basically defined as to give orders directing acts or inaction. Thus, the CiC has the power to direct the military and its intelligence gathering functions.
    That hardly supports the sort of power you are arguing for. Obviously, the President is the commander of the army and navy. Just as obviously, in commanding them he is constrained by the rules established by Congress.

    [I said:] if you were just going to look at the text of the Constitution, you would have to conclude that the language of the Fourth Amendment requires a warrant. There's nothing in the Fourth Amendment about a national-security exception. So how does a textualist like yourself find a basis for that exception?

    The 4th Amendment is not an absolute prohibition. Warrants are only required for "unreasonable searches and seizures." The courts have found dozens of searches and seizures which are reasonable and do not require a warrant. Forign intelligence gathering is one of these.

    For a textualism, you sure have a hard time reading texts. The Fourth Amendment says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause . . . ."
    Please note: There's no language in there about a national-security exception. Don't tell me what courts have said. I know what courts have said. But you said you were a textualist.
    Foreign intelligence gathering does not implicate most of the concerns of the 4th Amendment. To start, evidence gained in such intelligence gathering in not used against the targets in criminal prosecution. Therefore, you are left with a general privacy concern of the American citizenry. However, that privacy concern is minimal because intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents is not targeting US citizens unless they are acting as foreign agents.
    I'm sorry -- where in the text of the Fourth Amendment did you say all that came from? Are you proposing that you can discern some principles behind the text that trump the text in specific cases like this one? That's not very textual.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Bart writes:
    First of all, I think the ACLU will disagree with your assessment as they have waged a long war against FISA.

    You have to know how misleading this statement is. Yes, the ACLU has challenged the constitutionality of FISA, but on totally unrelated grounds. The ACLU claimed that FISA gave the president too much power, i.e., that it allowed the president to conduct surveillance that violated the 4th amenmdemnt. My point was that no one, until the last few months, has ever seriously suggested that FISA is unconsitutional on article II grounds.

    Your reference to the FISA court's refusal to implement certain parts of the Patriot Act is equally misleading. The court did this because it thought the 4th amendment required it. The FISA Court of Review then overtuned that decision in In re Sealed Case and held the Patriot Act amendments to FISA to be constitutional. Ironically, this is the same decision that Bush's defenders quote entirely out of context to argue that FISA is unconstitutional. Bart, your grasp of the relevant statutory and constitutional law in this area seems a little tenuous.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous5:33 PM

    Er, isn't the comment by Eyes Wide Open beginning with "Welcome, Al!" one of those 'troll cut and paste jobs that interferes with focused discussion' that were being discussed on another thread? Or do I just miss the connection with the media firewall post?
    "And the various media, as usual, are the whorish, complicit "useful idiots" who allow the government to get away with this." Does this last statement change the nature of the comment? Just askin'.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Michaelgalien said...

    What I find to be bizar is that somehow it is referred to as "foreign intelligence" although clearly an American citizen is involved as well.


    A couple points...

    First, I agree the semantic term "foreign intelligence" is misleading. I have tried to use the courts' description of foreign groups and their agents in America because much of this intelligence gathering is geographically conducted in the US.

    Second, nothing requires the agent of a foreign group living in the US to be an American citizen. In the case of al Qaeda and its related terror groups, the agents have almost always been legal and illegal immigrants. If memory serves, we have only found 2-3 "American al Qaeda."

    Ánd: shouldn't a 'foreign agent' be someone who is working / spying for a foreign nation? How can one be 'acting as foreign agents' if there isn't another country involved? With Al Qa'ida for instance: There is no foreign nation involved, so how can one be acting as a foreign agent?

    Why should a nation be involved? As al Qeada demonstrated, the stateless terror group can cause as much carnage as a government.

    (The same thing goes for the entire 'war on terrorism argument' by the way. A week ago a professor from the University of Amsterdan (UvA) wrote an article for one of our largest newspapers: he explained that, legally, no such thing is possible as a 'war on terrorism' since wars can, legally, only be against nations (or of course civil war.)).

    Like the phrase "foreign intelligence," the euphemism "war on terror" is more a marketing term than a true description of the enemy. In contrast, the AUMF for the "war on terror" specifies al Qaeda and the related terror groups against which military force is authorized.

    Wars can and have be waged against stateless groups for centuries. The most comparable wars which come to mind are the wars against pirate bands waged by seafaring nations. In the case of the US, we waged a multiple year war against the Barbary Pirates and the nations in North Africa which gave them shelter.

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  59. Anonymous6:30 PM

    At his own blog, Anonymous Liberal links to a fine little article by Columbia Law School Con Law professor Michael C. Dorf, setting forth and clarifying the law of presidential "inherent authority."

    Bart, if you read not one other thing during the next week, you should internalize Dorf' piece.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Michaelgalien said...

    Bart,

    I am talking about international law (because in The Netherlands, international law goes beyond national law; when they conflict; the national law is abandoned). In international law, as far as I know and as far as the professor explained, wars, legally spoken, can only be fought between countries. Thus a legal war (in international law) can never be between a 'country' and a 'group'. Because this is impossible, one should not apply 'war proceedings or law' but criminal justice law. This is for instance the reason the locking up of people in Guantanamo Bay and other prisons / camps is viewed as highly illegal: the people in those prisons should be regarded criminals (when they were fighting for Al Qa'ida), thus they are entitled to international treaties concerning criminal justice proceedings.
    Ánd if there truly is a war going on between a country and a terrorist organisation (Al Qa'ida) and we should concider it a war (as in AUMF), those prisoners are entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention. However; Bush denies both options in his treatment of those prisoners.


    Thank you for sharing your professor's argument. Is there an English translation or is it written in Dutch?

    This is the first time I have heard this argument.

    A couple questions...

    If the conflict between the United States and al Qaeda or affiliated non-state terror groups is not a "war," then how does your professor apply the Geneva Conventions to the captured combatants? After all, the Geneva Conventions apply to wars.

    If the conflict between the the United States and al Qaeda or affiliated non-state terror groups is instead a criminal justice matter, under what law does your professor argue the captured combatants should be tried. The US is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court and we have not agreed to form a special court at the Hague. Under this theory, the captured combatants would fall under US law. Captured combatants have no rights under US law apart from what the Geneva Conventions provide.

    Thus, we are back to the Geneva Conventions again.

    Under the Geneva Conventions, captured persons are due a hearing to determine if they are legal combatants who must be treated with the rights of POWs, civilians who must be treated with certain rights or illegal combatants who have no rights under the Geneva Conventions. Illegal combatants can be summarily executed like the Allies did with captured SS during WWII who were fighting in US uniforms or as civilians.

    The terrorists we are fighting fall under the definition of illegal combatants because they fight as civilians and commit various other violations of the Geneva Conventions and international law.

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  61. Anonymous Liberal's post about Dorf's article, including some excerpts, is
    here. Good stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous6:52 PM

    Anybody read the article "Small Donors and Online Givers" in today's WAPO?

    Seems the times, they are "a changin'".

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous6:57 PM

    Please, if you must, please keep engaging the troll down here so we don't have to scroll paste the "copy and paste" talking points upstairs. Guess there is something to chimpy's "flypaper" strategy after all.

    It doesn't appear to be effective in Iraq or his "war on terra", but it seems to be working here.

    Of course, those that respond to trolls that are obviously just mindlessly copying and pasting off-topic right wing crap from other sites are the real idiots around here.

    Can't blame trolls for trolling....

    But the self-important, egotistical know-it-alls that derail the topic because they want to post the inane and obvious can be blamed..... morons....

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  64. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Paul Rosenberg said...
    The 'Why' Of Compartmentalization

    Full text of these comments above. This is an invaluable and great comment from beginning to end. I am in full agreement and would add. Journalism is not a profession for those who are anxious to make seriously big money. Sure, there are a few highly paid individual reporters but most journalist do not make that much and as a consequence it is not surprising that: 1) the profession does not attract a lot of well-qualified independent thinkers, and 2) like teaching, I suspect many of the best and brightest leave the profession after a few years.

    I would add the following as well. Our media is heavily censored. Are we unable to admit that fact? We get very little global news; i.e. news out of Africa, South American, Europe, the Middle East, and even Canada. We exist is a U.S. media bubble that in many ways appears deliberately structured as such so as to maintain an appropriate advertizing milieu to keep America's consumer based economy feeling good. The difference between watching BBC World and any American television news broadcast is astounding.

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  65. Anonymous7:00 PM

    I'm pleased to see Anonymous Liberal and Glenn join forces- I've found them to be the two most consistently excellent political bloggers on the web. Keep up the good work.

    well I am just grateful that someone is "running interference" and providing an alternative thread that seems to be distracting the resident troll and the ignorent masses that enable him.

    This is no longer a thread about the media, thanks to the idiots that encourage the resident troll to continually fill his clipboard at the wanker sites and post off-topic, right wing crap here.

    Anon Liberal does have some good things to say, message is getting buried down here thought.

    At least it is clearer upstairs... glad all the stupid people are in this thread

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  66. In response to my earlier comment, which pointed out that bart's argument that the court's would be unlikely or unable to step in to adjudicate the constitutionality of FISA or Bush's NSA spying program would leave Bush free to violate the law with impunity, bart responded,

    There are two branches which may provide checks and balances on the Executive, not just one.
    . . .

    However, if Congress can prove that the NSA Program actually breaks a law and infringes on their constitutional powers, Congress can vote to defund the program and impeach the President.

    However, nearly no one on either side of the aisle wants to stop the Program or proposes impeachment.


    Once again, your comments are extremely misleading about both the law and the facts. First, Congress has no power to "prove" on its own that the actions of the executive branch are illegal or unconstitutional; as you well know, bart, only the judiciary has the power to either convict the President of a crime or declare FISA or the NSA program unconstitutional. Second, those issues are irrelevant to Congress' power to defund a program or to impeach. Congress can defund a program whenever it wants for whatever reason it wants and the House can impeach the President for what ever it considers to be "high crimes and misdemeanors" whether any of the acts in question are technically illegal or unconstitutional or not.

    Next, as other commenters have pointed out, you are wrong to say that nearly no one is proposing impeachment. (I won't repeat what the others have written, we both know what they said.) But impeachment is a difficult process and as you pointed out in a later post, it is not popular with voters. In any event, with the House controlled by the President's own party, impeachment is not bloody likely no matter what Bush does. As for stopping the NSA program by defunding it, your statement is highly misleading. Certainly, there are very few in Congress, if any, who have proposed stopping the NSA program completely and absolutely nobody has proposed stopping surveillance on suspected and known terrorists. What Congress and the majority of the American people want is for this surveillance to be done legally and constitutionally. To suggest that the only way for Congress and the American public to stop the President from committing crimes is to defund the NSA program in its entirety, potentially eliminating all terrorist surveillance (since we don't know the extent of the NSA program, that is a possibility) is ludicrous.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous7:12 PM

    notherbob2, I wish I had copied and pasted that post. Would have saved me a lot of time.

    My point about the MSM is that they have never reported or run stories about how the various animal groups are really groups of peaceful, good hearted people who are sympathetic to animals.

    Instead, they have highlighted and repeated propaganda about these "extremists" who seek to kill and destroy.

    The New York Post never once uses the phrase "animal rights" without saying "animal rights extremists" or "animal rights wackos." That includes each and every one of their editorials that have reported on animal groups.

    Other papers convey the same message, with cooler rhetoric.

    If you are aware of any articles in the MSM which point out that these groups are NOT consistent with, nor promotive of illegal, violent behavior to promote their goals, please point those out to me.

    When a government counterterrorism official testifies to Congress, as was reported in the NY Times this week, that these animal groups "pose the nation's most serious domestic terrorist threat", I think it becomes big news which relates directly to what we often discuss: what are the government's real reasons for asking us to give up our liberties in exchange for "added security."

    Is this these the only groups the government is so anxious to muzzle? Of course not. But they're high on the list, and Congress has been informed they're the ones which pose the biggest domestic terrorist threat.

    As I anticipate that a whole lot more press is going to be covering a whole lot more of these "engineered" acts of violent protest in the days ahead to defend itself against accusations that its motives are impure, and to demonstrate its actions in spying on such groups, and other groups are warranted, I entered that post.

    We will see if I am right.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous7:15 PM

    karen mcl said...

    What we have is not a discussion of the merits based on any objective facts – but a purposely skewed and outright distortion of the *Facts and the Truth* upon which the conservative-right wishes to base their presumptions and arguments –

    Absolutely stellar post, and totally bang on. Is it any wonder these same "conservatives" (extra emphasis on the quotes in case you missed it) find kindred spirits in the "teach the controversy" I.D.'ers?

    If Jefferson's informed populace has any place in future American society, it will be largely through a symbiotic relationship between reporters with their cultivated sources and bloggers with their often meticulous recitation of the public record.

    Great post, A.L.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous7:16 PM

    Michaelgalien, don't forget STUPID...

    And thanks for the inane banter that encourages the resident troll to keep going back to the digital sewer and filling his clipboard with more text-based feces.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous7:25 PM

    Anonymous Liberal,

    No offense, but you obviously are a johnny-come-lately to FISA.

    The ACLU has fought against the FISA secret courts since 1978 due to its secretive nature. They have fought and fought to be able to disclose the names on the warrants long before GWB was in office.

    To insinuate that the ACLU is fighting FISA simply on the grounds that it thinks the president is overstepping his power is ridiculous and you need to bone up on your history.

    Second, you said the Patriot Act and FISA are one and the same. We all know you are doing this to try to make it sound like the NSA Terrorist Surveillance program can't possible be seperate from the two. It is a weak attempt. I said the FISA judges obviously didn't think the Patriot Act and FISA were one and the same, as they felt the Patriot Act could not apply where FISA did. You danced around this, but once again, you failed to acknowlege that they obviously DID NOT think that both were the same.

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  71. Hypatia said...

    At his own blog, Anonymous Liberal links to a fine little article by Columbia Law School Con Law professor Michael C. Dorf, setting forth and clarifying the law of presidential "inherent authority." Bart, if you read not one other thing during the next week, you should internalize Dorf' piece.


    Thank you for the link to this fine article.

    I agree with much of Professor Dorf's analysis of the law, if not all of his conclusions.

    We agree that the President and Congress each possess certain enumerated powers which the other may not limit or eliminate. The pardon power is one of his examples.

    Then Mr. Dorf argues that there are a category of concurrent powers shared by both Congress and the President. However, he claims that Congress may limit or eliminate the President's shared power by enacting a statute.

    This theory does not make much sense in a structure of co-equal branches of government.

    For example, Professor Dorf notes that the President and Congress share power to make rules concerning the treatment of captured enemy combatants. Congress has a specific enumerated power to "make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water," while the President has a general power as CiC to take prisoners as standard incident of war.

    Dorf notes that the President out of necessity would have to establish rules for the treatment of captures if Congress failed to enact a statute establishing such rules.

    So far, so good...

    However, Dorf reasons that the President cannot use his power as CiC to set rules which conflict with the rules enacted by Congress pursuant to its power otherwise Congress' power would be not be worth the parchment on which it is written.

    The problem with this syllogism is that the President can make the same identical argument.

    I think, perhaps, the best way to approach this conflict of powers is to hold that the specific grant of power trumps the general power. For example, in this case, the Constitution states that Congress has the specific power to "make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water." In contrast, the President has the general power as CiC which does not specifically mention setting rules concerning captures.

    Now, let's turn to Professor Dorf's rather brief argument concerning intelligence gathering...

    To his credit, Professor Dorf recognizes the precedent in this area and admits that the President as CiC has the inherent authority "to order" warrantless intelligence gathering. His use of the term "to order" is important because that is the definition of command and the central power of a commander.

    Dorf then offers two congressional powers which he claims are concurrent with the Presidential power to gather intelligence:

    1) Article I, Section 8(12-13), which grants the Congress the power to raise and maintain the Army and Navy.

    2) Article I, Section 8(14), which which grants the Congress the power "to make rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and Naval Forces."

    Dorf's argument concerning Article I, Section 8(12-13) is easily disposed of. He claims that the power to create the military in the first instance implies the power to constrain the President's command of the military.

    This argument ignores the plain meaning of the language used in the Constitution. The terms "raise" and "maintain" do not implicate command at all. Rather, the Constitution expressly makes the President CiC and endows him or her with command authority.

    Professor Dorf's argument concerning Article I, Section 8(14) is really only an assumption on his part that the power to regulate the conduct of the members of the armed forces includes the power to forbid them from obeying the orders of the CiC concerning intelligence gathering.

    The problem with this assumption is that Congress would then be able to forbid the troops from following any order of the President simply by passing a statute. This illogical and absurd result is obviously not what the Constitution intended.

    Article I, Section 8(14) is better read as empowering Congress to enact rules to maintain the good order and discipline of individual soldiers such as setting forth the UCMJ criminal statutes.

    This is distinct and separate from the President's command power to designate the targets of intelligence gathering, which has nothing at all to do with maintaining discipline.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Professor Dorf's argument concerning Article I, Section 8(14) is really only an assumption on his part that the power to regulate the conduct of the members of the armed forces includes the power to forbid them from obeying the orders of the CiC concerning intelligence gathering.

    The problem with this assumption is that Congress would then be able to forbid the troops from following any order of the President simply by passing a statute. This illogical and absurd result is obviously not what the Constitution intended.

    Article I, Section 8(14) is better read as empowering Congress to enact rules to maintain the good order and discipline of individual soldiers such as setting forth the UCMJ criminal statutes.

    This is distinct and separate from the President's command power to designate the targets of intelligence gathering, which has nothing at all to do with maintaining discipline.


    You keep using sleight of hand to suggest that the more general power given to Congress to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces" is instead a more limited power to "regulate the conduct" of members of the armed forces. There's just no basis for this -- give it up. At once, you take a very broad view of the President's CIC power, and an unreasonably chary view of Congress's authority. Stop pretending that there's some principle at work here.

    The thing I posted earlier about women serving in combat is only one example. Everyone except you -- including the Admininstration -- concedes that Congress has the power to establish, as a matter of law, that women may not serve in combat in certain roles. The fact that your arguments are driving you to find a constitutional defect where no one else sees a problem should be telling you something.

    If you want to think about the actual text, go look at what the gun nuts say when you point out that the Second Amendment refers to a "well regulated militia." They line up to explain that the term "regulated" generally means a well-functioning militia -- a much broader construction of the term than the one you are urging here.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Michaelgalien said...

    1- according to your government (for instance your the 'vice'-ambassador from the US in The Netherlands) Al Qa'ida isn't a country, thus they aren't part of the Geneva Convention: thus they haven't got the rights POW's have got. He also stated (like your entire government) that Al Qa'ida declarated war against the US.


    If this is a correct interpretation of the ambassador's statement, then the ambassador is incorrect. An group of combatants need not represent a "country" to gain the protections of the Geneva Conventions. Rebels involved in a revolutionary war against the nation's government may qualify as POWs.

    The Geneva Conventions were enacted to grant protections to captured combatants and civilians who follow certain rules of war such as fighting in uniforms. Any combatant or civilian can earn these rights if they follow the rules of war.

    To qualify them as being 'unlawful combatants' or 'enemy combatants' isn't rooted on any kind of (international) law whatsoever. The notion that they're Al Qa'ida members and therefore too dangerous to be locked up anywhere else isn't true...

    This is not an argument of the US government. al Qaeda and other similar terrorist groups are treated as illegal combatants because their members do not conform with the rules of war laid out in the Geneva Conventions which would qualify them for POW protections.

    I hope this answered some of your questions (by the way; he is not my professor; I study at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, not at the UvA).

    Thank you for the quotes. This professor has very little knowledge of the Geneva Conventions.

    ReplyDelete
  74. peachkfc said...

    First, Congress has no power to "prove" on its own that the actions of the executive branch are illegal or unconstitutional; as you well know, bart, only the judiciary has the power to either convict the President of a crime...


    This is incorrect.

    First, the courts have held that the impeachment process before Congress is the only method of prosecuting a President for crimes while he or she is in office.

    If the House votes to impeach the President, the case then goes to trial before the Senate. As you may recall from the Clinton impeachment trial, the House sent representatives who offered evidence and legal argument as to why the Senate should convict and remove the President.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous said...

    Michaelgalien, don't forget STUPID...And thanks for the inane banter that encourages the resident troll to keep going back to the digital sewer and filling his clipboard with more text-based feces.


    I apologize for the rudeness and juvenile behavior of my countrymen. There is something about the anonymity of the internet that makes some people post name calling, lies and insults which they would never dare say in person.

    I have enjoyed our conversations because they are polite and reasoned. Don't let these adults acting like children keep us from speaking in the future.

    ReplyDelete
  76. No offense, but you obviously are a johnny-come-lately to FISA.

    The ACLU has fought against the FISA secret courts since 1978 due to its secretive nature. They have fought and fought to be able to disclose the names on the warrants long before GWB was in office.

    To insinuate that the ACLU is fighting FISA simply on the grounds that it thinks the president is overstepping his power is ridiculous and you need to bone up on your history.


    I love condescending posts by people who haven't the first clue what they're talking about. I absolutely did not insinuate that the "ACLU is fighting FISA simply on the grounds that it thinks the president is overstepping his power." In fact, I said the exact opposite. The ACLU challenged FISA on the grounds that FISA overstepped the 4th Amendment (and lost). In that suit, the administration defended FISA's constitutionality. Now it is the administration that is challenging FISA, on article II grounds.

    As for this:

    Second, you said the Patriot Act and FISA are one and the same. We all know you are doing this to try to make it sound like the NSA Terrorist Surveillance program can't possible be seperate from the two. It is a weak attempt. I said the FISA judges obviously didn't think the Patriot Act and FISA were one and the same, as they felt the Patriot Act could not apply where FISA did.

    Maybe you should read my post a little closer or read the Patriot Act itself. I didn't say they were the same thing. I said that the Patriot Act is a collection of amendments to other statutes, most notably FISA. In other words, the Patriot Act contains provisions which alter and add language to FISA. Is that really so hard to understand?

    The whole point of the Patriot Act was to modernize FISA, to fine-tune it. So it makes no sense at all to treat the Patriot Act and FISA as if they are totally separate laws. One was an amendment to the other.

    ReplyDelete
  77. t.s. said...

    You keep using sleight of hand to suggest that the more general power given to Congress to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces" is instead a more limited power to "regulate the conduct" of members of the armed forces. There's just no basis for this -- give it up.


    Perhaps I confused you, but I did not mean any such thing.

    Congress' power to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces" is a specific authority which would overrule the President's more general CiC powers.

    For example, when Congress enacted the UCMJ criminal code, it overruled the previously established set of Courts Martial rules established by the President.

    My point is that the scope of the power to regulate the good order and discipline of the military does not go beyond the UCMJ to choosing the targets of intelligence gathering.

    The thing I posted earlier about women serving in combat is only one example. Everyone except you -- including the Admininstration -- concedes that Congress has the power to establish, as a matter of law, that women may not serve in combat in certain roles.

    Actually, the issue simply does not come up because both sides agree that women should be limited to certain nominally non-combat jobs. Whether Congress has the power to require this has never been tested to my knowledge.

    If you want to think about the actual text, go look at what the gun nuts say when you point out that the Second Amendment refers to a "well regulated militia." They line up to explain that the term "regulated" generally means a well-functioning militia -- a much broader construction of the term than the one you are urging here.

    Thank you very much for reminding me about the similar usage of "regulated" in the Second Amendment. That had slipped my mind and proves my point concerning the scope of Congress's power to "regulate" the armed forces.

    The term "well-regulated" when applied to military units during the 18th century meant well ordered and disciplined.

    Therefore, when the Constitution speaks of Congress's power to enact rules to regulate the army and navy, it is speaking of rules to maintain order and discipline.

    There is no need to make the utilitarian argument I made earlier today. The text limits the scope of this congressional power.

    ReplyDelete
  78. bart said...
    peachkfc said...

    First, Congress has no power to "prove" on its own that the actions of the executive branch are illegal or unconstitutional; as you well know, bart, only the judiciary has the power to either convict the President of a crime...

    This is incorrect.

    First, the courts have held that the impeachment process before Congress is the only method of prosecuting a President for crimes while he or she is in office.

    If the House votes to impeach the President, the case then goes to trial before the Senate. As you may recall from the Clinton impeachment trial, the House sent representatives who offered evidence and legal argument as to why the Senate should convict and remove the President.


    bart, I hate to get into a pissing contest, but I am not wrong. You are again being deliberately misleading. You know perfectly well that a vote by the Senate to remove a President or other official from office after an impeachment trial does not constitute a criminal conviction under the criminal law and procedures that govern all other criminal convictions in this country and does not subject the removee to any criminal penalties such as imprisonment. You know, it would be much more productive in these discussions if you would stop playing these semantic and rhetorical games and just make honest arguments. It would save an awful lot of time.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous8:47 PM

    Have a nice day.

    Thanks -- feel free to post a link to your tanscripts.

    People that give our regular troll a platform, enabling them far more verbage than the host or topic, are not smart, that's all I am trying to say.

    It is obvious who has posted the most text here -- all off-topic and meant to inflame.

    Feeding the copy and paste trolls is stupididy.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous8:52 PM

    Bart said
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Proin nisl quam, dignissim a, gravida sit amet, aliquet nec, ipsum. Nulla lectus. Suspendisse potenti. In pede. Integer eu augue ac sem pretium vulputate. Phasellus eget lectus. Proin aliquet. In elit. Nulla pellentesque, sem in varius molestie, purus odio feugiat purus, non bibendum mauris elit ut elit. Pellentesque blandit orci commodo libero. Etiam ut massa. In purus magna, rhoncus quis, lobortis sed, fringilla non, ligula. Aliquam lorem. Etiam metus lorem, mollis vel, posuere auctor, rhoncus ut, tellus. In suscipit adipiscing diam. Suspendisse malesuada mattis dolor. Morbi mollis, nulla nec iaculis vehicula, lorem eros pellentesque erat, ut pulvinar tellus risus nec leo.

    Suspendisse posuere ultricies nunc. Phasellus elementum sem quis metus. Nunc vitae nisl eget enim tincidunt sodales. Suspendisse posuere, neque faucibus laoreet dignissim, metus metus varius leo, et varius odio nisi eu lectus. Praesent dapibus hendrerit libero. Sed felis purus, molestie sollicitudin, rhoncus ac, dapibus id, nunc. Proin semper lacus ac massa. Mauris at mauris sed nisl congue venenatis. Vestibulum sapien. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Morbi aliquet magna condimentum ante. Proin massa. Curabitur dapibus pharetra sem. Morbi aliquam arcu quis nulla. Proin quam.

    Vivamus sed urna quis tellus lacinia accumsan. Vivamus euismod elit luctus eros. Morbi id odio. Aliquam aliquam tincidunt ante. Nulla facilisi. Pellentesque erat lorem, elementum sed, cursus non, rutrum vel, quam. Donec pellentesque lobortis nisi. Mauris lacinia turpis sit amet magna. Quisque sed felis. Sed viverra eros sed mi.

    Vestibulum fermentum dapibus tellus. In tincidunt. Morbi lacinia. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Proin mauris. Quisque molestie risus lacinia mauris. Nam tincidunt, erat vel condimentum convallis, metus libero rhoncus sem, a elementum erat sapien consequat sem. Aenean congue consequat leo. In in libero. Etiam turpis mi, sagittis sed, feugiat at, rutrum quis, arcu. Aliquam semper, ligula non ullamcorper viverra, eros massa laoreet tortor, et elementum augue ligula sit amet ligula. Mauris eu enim vitae nunc bibendum pretium. Aliquam at felis eget libero volutpat elementum. Cras consectetuer. Pellentesque vulputate velit eget ipsum. Phasellus arcu erat, ullamcorper ut, bibendum bibendum, tempus nec, nunc. Proin nec dui non tellus egestas dignissim. Suspendisse bibendum, orci eget imperdiet hendrerit, enim pede consequat odio, vitae consectetuer nisl velit a odio. Curabitur ipsum.

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    Donec adipiscing fermentum massa. Etiam adipiscing nisl et orci nonummy fermentum. Vestibulum eu lorem. Praesent posuere nulla eget lacus. Quisque ac nulla. Nullam ac tellus vel mauris aliquet sollicitudin. Fusce congue dapibus odio. Mauris sem augue, posuere vel, lobortis a, vulputate congue, risus. Nulla ullamcorper, dui at dictum malesuada, magna velit luctus lectus, quis convallis urna diam vitae arcu. Nulla vulputate. Sed sit amet neque.

    Nulla posuere nunc vel tellus. Nunc et arcu sed sapien vestibulum tempus. Sed mattis sapien laoreet sapien. In felis. Nulla massa lectus, varius vel, venenatis et, varius sit amet, tortor. Fusce eleifend tellus. Aenean at quam. Aliquam iaculis eleifend elit. Quisque posuere dapibus libero. Pellentesque sed felis at purus pharetra congue. Suspendisse tellus.

    Suspendisse eu libero. Morbi in ante. Aenean erat. Curabitur venenatis, nisi quis malesuada placerat, orci nibh feugiat dui, eget mattis felis ipsum in metus. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Vestibulum vehicula interdum sapien. Quisque aliquet. Mauris et mi. Morbi gravida mattis turpis. In fermentum. Aliquam eget nibh. Sed vel elit eu ipsum accumsan mattis. Maecenas fermentum, ante eu mattis suscipit, ipsum ante fringilla nisi, eget aliquam dui dolor ac erat. Sed luctus euismod urna. Nunc vel ante. Cras non neque. Aenean dolor tortor, nonummy a, posuere et, congue vel, ipsum. Quisque facilisis metus et sem. Vivamus imperdiet risus interdum risus. Etiam aliquam, nunc vel pellentesque blandit, risus quam vestibulum odio, nec suscipit arcu erat a ligula.

    Aenean interdum arcu vitae nisl. Proin in mauris. Sed tempor est vitae leo. Suspendisse vel lacus. Morbi lorem odio, porta laoreet, ornare id, pellentesque eu, magna. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Aliquam erat volutpat. Nulla malesuada. Donec ut elit non massa tristique elementum. Curabitur lorem augue, tristique a, molestie eget, scelerisque sit amet, eros. Praesent id mauris. Maecenas justo. Vestibulum orci est, lacinia eu, cursus eu, aliquam in, sem. Curabitur sollicitudin semper leo.

    Sed urna est, eleifend ut, sollicitudin eget, tincidunt nec, nisi. Suspendisse sed ipsum. Curabitur blandit diam id tellus. Quisque at mauris. Donec lobortis posuere metus. Cras id dui. Suspendisse in turpis. Aenean tristique eleifend orci. Suspendisse condimentum. Proin quis augue et sapien imperdiet condimentum. Donec nibh neque, suscipit eget, aliquam nec, pellentesque quis, mi. Phasellus urna mi, pretium in, porttitor in, gravida eu, felis.


    Nulla dapibus, ante sed euismod elementum, erat nibh lobortis nunc, nec malesuada dui ligula in augue. Nunc tincidunt, odio vitae posuere congue, tortor erat imperdiet tortor, eget volutpat lectus quam eu est. Fusce consequat. Nullam condimentum, nulla non blandit suscipit, velit neque auctor orci, nonummy euismod lorem tellus at nisi. Donec tempus dolor nec metus. Nullam a massa. Pellentesque orci. Donec euismod fringilla metus. Nulla dapibus, purus nec luctus hendrerit, justo lacus consectetuer tortor, et suscipit nulla mi ut nisl. Nulla eget odio.

    Integer magna quam, sodales eget, pellentesque ut, pellentesque vitae, eros. Donec interdum purus eget mi. Morbi in odio. Nam condimentum, metus a iaculis scelerisque, neque magna consectetuer orci, vel hendrerit nisl justo quis est. Maecenas egestas euismod sapien. Phasellus eu purus. Donec laoreet urna in felis. Aliquam ante. Curabitur tincidunt pede vitae purus. Vestibulum blandit. Phasellus eu sapien non quam sollicitudin lacinia.

    Donec id eros. Nullam in leo. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Donec feugiat enim quis diam. Ut feugiat tellus adipiscing pede. Suspendisse mattis. Vivamus commodo mattis dolor. Praesent eleifend neque eu erat. Pellentesque varius. Vestibulum et libero. Proin diam velit, luctus a, nonummy ut, condimentum sit amet, leo. Vestibulum vulputate, turpis vel semper sodales, turpis tortor venenatis nunc, consectetuer porta lacus diam eget augue. Pellentesque semper enim non lacus. In tempus auctor dui. Nam massa purus, hendrerit sed, pretium quis, vehicula placerat, elit. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. In posuere.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous9:22 PM

    "The existing law [FISA] was written in the era of rotary telephones."

    Not true. Electronic switching and touch-tone phones were introduced in the late 1960's. I was designing for T1 hardware in the early 1970's. So the $hrub can't even get his own facts in his own notes straight.

    ReplyDelete
  82. bart said:

    My point is that the scope of the power to regulate the good order and discipline of the military does not go beyond the UCMJ to choosing the targets of intelligence gathering.

    I know that's your point. You keep repeating it. But you have not and cannot explain why Congress's Article I powers should be construed so narrowly. Instead, you seem to think that you've made an argument of some sort simply by referring, as here, to "the power to regulate the good order and discipline of the military." Again: that's just not what the Constitution says. Try reading it.

    Actually, the issue simply does not come up because both sides agree that women should be limited to certain nominally non-combat jobs. Whether Congress has the power to require this has never been tested to my knowledge.

    Again, you're not paying attention. Follow the link instead of bullsh**ing. The administration says it disagrees with Congress on this one, but recognizes that Congress has the constitutional authority here.

    The term "well-regulated" when applied to military units during the 18th century meant well ordered and disciplined.

    No, that's the exact opposite of what conservatives say about the Second Amendment. Which was my point. And if you read Article I -- a strange concept, I know, but as a self-avowed textualist, you should try it for once -- you'll see that the word is not exactly limiting in that context.

    How about all the arguments above you haven't bothered to answer? Or are you just a troll?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous said...

    Bart said: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Proin nisl quam, dignissim a, gravida sit amet, aliquet nec, ipsum....


    LMAO!!!

    I know, the law is all latin to you...

    That is why they make us sick puppies attorneys.

    ReplyDelete
  84. t.s. said...

    But you have not and cannot explain why Congress's Article I powers should be construed so narrowly.


    I am construing all of the provisions the same way, by the plain meaning of their language.

    When the Constitution uses broad language you apply it broadly. For example...

    The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States...

    The plain meaning of that phrase is that the President has command authority over all functions of the military.

    When the Constitution uses narrower language it applies more narrowly. For example, when the Constitution provides Congress with the power...

    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces

    This is but one function of the military.

    If anything, I am interpreting the President's Article II authority narrowly by arguing that where Congress' specific power comes into conflict with the President's general power, that Congress' specific power takes precedence.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous12:00 AM

    Eyes Wide Open says: "Instead, they have highlighted and repeated propaganda about these "extremists" who seek to kill and destroy."
    OK. Now I get how it relates to the topic at hand. I am pretty smart, but not always quick. Could I quibble that EWO got hot on the topic and went on at length? Just trying to clean up the commentary. EWO is to be comended for taking the inappropriate criticism in good spirit. I am sorry, I was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous12:12 AM

    anonymous liberal says:
    The whole point of the Patriot Act was to modernize FISA, to fine-tune it. So it makes no sense at all to treat the Patriot Act and FISA as if they are totally separate laws. One was an amendment to the other.
    ---
    Good lord, this is such a ridiculous statement. FISA was
    at best 20 percent of the Patriot Act you could spend days talking about the 80 percent that wasn't.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Good lord, this is such a ridiculous statement. FISA was
    at best 20 percent of the Patriot Act you could spend days talking about the 80 percent that wasn't.


    Please, the most important provisions of the Patriot Act were amendments to FISA, and incidently, they're the very provisions which were scheduled to sunset, which is the reason the Act needed to be renewed. Secondly, it doesn't matter that the Patriot Act includes more than just amendments to FISA, because 1) the administration's rationale for violating FISA applies equally to every other statute which the Patriot Act amends, 2) the statements I highlighted from Bush were specifically addressing the part of the Patriot Act that amends FISA, and 3) the administration has made it clear that every part of the Patriot Act is crucial and needs to be renewed.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Hi Anonymous,

    When I read the original post about the issues getting looked at, I thought I'd pass on some things that appeared to be related: What bloggers are noticing that others aren't. These are things I've found:

    1. I've taken a stab at doing some "unusual reviews" of the NSA and UAE. I have found many problems with the UAE deal, and outline the issues here, the story isn’t adding up: [ Click ]

    2. Tidbits about the NSA issues [ here] .

    3. A guide to using the Regulations/Statutes to find insights about the hidden NSA programs: [ Click ]

    4. Problems with the NSA legal defenses in light of FISA and case law. [ Click ]

    5. Sample case showing how the current RNC/WH buzzwords are at odds with precedent. [ Click ]

    6. Sample case law giving the Ranking Member on the Senate Intelligence Committee power to order the NSA IG to do something, but doesn't appear to be used, why? [ Click ]

    7. A cut at the NSA issues in light of the UCMJ and charges against the Joint Staff. [ Click ]

    8. Line of evidence showing the President and Gonzalez are lying about the DoJ workload to do the FISA warrants. [ Click ]

    9. Legal trap the President is in on the NSA issue -- reporting requirement to Congress -- haven't heard much on this nuance: [ Click ]

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous12:32 AM

    Bart said

    Cras sollicitudin placerat augue. Cras lacus turpis, ultrices sit amet, convallis lacinia, commodo ut, leo. Nam quis purus non sem sagittis nonummy. Vestibulum fringilla quam mattis risus. Nunc in tellus. Phasellus massa est, interdum nec, malesuada at, varius tempor, diam. Fusce posuere nunc nec lacus. Donec vel ligula eget tellus condimentum tristique. Donec eu nisl ut sapien lacinia euismod. Nunc eu purus. Donec dolor. Praesent vel sem. Aliquam elementum sodales nisi. Nullam nec est vel nunc volutpat pharetra. Sed felis. Nulla mattis accumsan magna. Aenean quis diam et ligula bibendum vehicula. Sed pretium tortor sed felis.

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    Obviously, you are just copying and pasting your mindless talking points from the cesspool of right-wing blogs...

    The real morons are the ones that respond to this type of idiocy.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I am construing all of the provisions the same way, by the plain meaning of their language.

    When the Constitution uses broad language you apply it broadly. For example...

    The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States...

    The plain meaning of that phrase is that the President has command authority over all functions of the military.

    When the Constitution uses narrower language it applies more narrowly. For example, when the Constitution provides Congress with the power...

    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces

    This is but one function of the military.

    If anything, I am interpreting the President's Article II authority narrowly by arguing that where Congress' specific power comes into conflict with the President's general power, that Congress' specific power takes precedence.


    For some reason, you have decided that the power to "command" the military is superior to Congress's power to make rules for the military. There's no reason inherent in the words, or in common sense, why the two branches should not be co-equal. As I've said repeatedly, and you haven't bothered to deny, the existence of rules constrains the CIC as such. On the other hand, the CIC has the power to act in the context of specific circumstances which rules may not anticipate.

    It's one thing to say that the president has the power to command the troops. It's another to say that this power necessarily trumps whatever powers Congress has. You and other conservatives who start with some sort of gut preference to defend the President's position here seem blind to that distinction.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous2:32 AM

    Constant, fabulous links for terrific analysis of those points.
    Now that AL and thersites are on board, you are the person I have been hoping would join them and Glenn. You do amazing work and are to be congratulated.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous10:33 AM

    Audio and Video clips of just those portions, found and edited from the White House website.

    ReplyDelete