Friday, March 17, 2006

The new Nixon Law is introduced -- that which the President does is legal

(updated below)

Michael DeWine yesterday introduced what he is calling The Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006 (.pdf), co-sponsored by those independent maverick Republicans Olympia Snowe, Chuck Hagel and Lindsay Graham. The purpose of the bill is to render legal the illegal warrantless eavesdropping program ordered by the President more than 4 years ago. This bill is based upon the Richard Nixon Theory of Executive Infallibility, famously expressed in Nixon's 1977 interview with David Frost:

FROST: So what in a sense, you're saying is that there are certain situations, and the Huston Plan or that part of it was one of them, where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation or something, and do something illegal.

NIXON: Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal.

FROST: By definition.

NIXON: Exactly. Exactly.
If the president, for example, approves something because of the national security, or in this case because of a threat to internal peace and order of significant magnitude, then the president's decision in that instance is one that enables those who carry it out, to carry it out without violating a law. Otherwise they're in an impossible position.

With that Presidential Infallibility premise firmly embraced by the independent Republican mavericks, we are presented with the Terrorist Surveillance Act. This is what it does:

It expressly empowers the President, in Section 2(a), to "authorize a program of electronic surveillance without a court order for periods of up to 45 days.” The President can simply renew the program every 45 days by certifying that renewal of the program is appropriate (Section 4(b)(2)). Contrary to initial press reports and to this morning's article in The Washington Post, the newly created Intelligence Subcommittee (at least as I read the bill - see below) has no power to approve or reject any warrantless eavesdropping programs. Its only purpose is to be briefed periodically on the eavesdropping activities undertaken as part of the program.

In sum, the bill authorizes and makes legal precisely the illegal conduct in which the Administration has been continuously engaging since September or October of 2001. The Administration claims that it reviews its warrantless eavesdropping every 45 days, so that's precisely what the bill authorizes. Or, as Richard Nixon says: "when the president does it that means that it is not illegal."

Here are some additional observations about the bill:

(1) As permissive as it is, this bill still purports to impose minimal limits on the power of the President to eavesdrop, but the whole crux of the NSA scandal is that the President believes that Congress has no power to limit what he can do. Thus, what conceivable rationale is there for Congress to enact laws purporting to impose limits on what the President can do when the President has made clear he will break those laws if he decides he wants to? This bill merely amends FISA ( by significantly loosening its requirements), but the President still says he has the right to violate FISA, so what is the point of amending a law which the President will violate when he wants to?

This is a completely fruitless and absurd exercise to engage in without resolving the question of the President's claimed law-breaking powers. In reality, this is the only point worth making. Laws passed by Congress which are designed to place limits on the President's actions are worthless because the President has claimed the power to ignore those laws. And we know this both because he has said so and because he has been ignoring them. All other discussions about this bill or other bills are just academic as long as the President claims, as he does, the power to break the law.

(2) The bill allows warrantless eavesdropping programs where there is "probable cause" to believe that one of the individuals whose communications will be intercepted as part of the program is someone “working in support of a group or organization” deemed to be a terrorist group (Section 2(a)(2)). It does not require case-by-case probable cause, merely that there be probable cause that some (but not all) of the intercepted communications under the program involve individuals affiliated with (or "working in support of") terrorist groups. Thus, a program which intercepts the communications of totally innocent people with no connection to terrorism is perfectly fine as long as the program also intercepts communications of someone who does have such connections.

(3) The President is allowed to intercept the communications not only of individuals who are agents or affiliates of a terrorist group, but also anyone who is deemed by the Administration to be “working in support" of such an organization. The bill provides no definition of what one has to do in order to be deemed to be "working in support" of a terrorist organization. In order to rectify the obvious problem that the Administration's political opponents are routinely accused of "working in support" of terrorists -- and would therefore fall within the scope of whose communications can be intercepted -- the bill provides this impotent limitation under Section 2(b)(1):

Electronic surveillance carried out pursuant (to this law) . . . shall not be conducted solely on the basis of activities protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Presumably, the idea behind this clause is that it prevents the Administration from eavesdropping on political opponents and domestic political groups solely by virtue of the views they express, because to be considered someone who is "working in support of" terrorists, one has to do something other than express opinions protected by the First Amendment. But this clause has so many holes as to be completely worthless.

Amazingly, the bill actually authorizes electronic surveillance based substantially on someone's political views (which would be deemed to be "in support of" terrorists), just as long as those views are not the sole basis for interceptions the person's communcations. Thus, if someone gives a speech which the Administration believes is "pro-terrorist," and then has a meeting that the Administration thinks is suspicious, the person's communications could be intercepted under the bill.

And whether even political opinions which are deemed to be "pro-terrorist" are protected by the First Amendment is something that could be disputed (not reasonably disputed, but disputed nonetheless). I have no doubt the Administration believes, and would simply decree, that "pro-terrorist" opinions can be the sole basis for eavesdropping because they are not "protected by the First Amendment."

Critically, this bill defines who the Administration can eavesdrop on without obtaining a warrant. That means that all of the determinations as to who qualifies to be eavesdropped on are no longer with a court, but with the Administration to make unilaterally. The bill allows eavesdropping on anyone deemed by the Administration to be "working in support of" terrorist groups. It expressly allows First Amendment activities to be taken into account and even be the substantial basis for such a determination. In essence, then, the bill thus vests in the Administration the unchecked power to eavesdrop on whomever it wants.

(4) As indicated, under this bill, the Administration does not need any approval from any court or committee to engage in warrantless eavesdropping. It need merely certify on its own that such eavesdropping meets the law's criteria, and then report to the subcommittee once every 6 months (or when the subcommittee requests a briefing) on what it is doing (Section 6(c)).

There is no mechanism for the Subcommittee to take any action if it believes that the eavesdropping power is being improperly or illegally exploited. Worse, the bill includes extremely onerous penalties for anyone who discloses any information "relating to" the eavesdropping program (Section 8).

While this draft does not include penalties for reporters, it would make it a criminal offense for a member of the Subcommittee to publicize illegal or abusive eavesdropping on the part of the Administration. Thus, while the Administration is required to brief the Subcommittee on its eavesdropping activities twice a year, the Subcommittee has no power to take any action to stop abusive eavesdropping and its members would even be subject to criminal penalties if they disclosed anything it learned -- including illegal eavesdropping on the part of the Administration.

(5) A few miscellaneous provisions worth noting:

  • the bill requires that the targeted intercepted communications must involve one person who is not within the United States (Section 2(a)(3)), but it expressly allows interception of purely domestic communications as part of any eavesdropping program as long as there is “not a substantial likelihood” that the intercepted communications are domestic;

  • Under Section 2(e), “the Attorney General may direct a specific provider of communication services or common carrier” to take any action necessary to effectuate the surveillance. Thus, telephone companies and any other communication providers would be required to obey orders from the Attorney General to take any steps the Government directs to ensure that it can intercept communications;

  • Under section 5(b), the Administration is required to obtain a FISA warrant for eavesdropping if it decides that it can get a FISA warrant. If it does not so decide, then it is free to eavesdrop without a warrant for as long as it wants, as long as it renews its own authority every 45 days -- just like it has been doing.

The Washington Post has an interesting analysis of the political conflicts still very much raging among Republicans over this bill specifically and, in general, how this scandal will be resolved. Arlen Specter has expressed unequivocal opposition to the bill and "particularly objects to letting the government 'do whatever the hell it wants' for 45 days without seeking judicial or congressional approval."

Unsurprisingly, Pat Roberts has the opposite concern: that the bill commits the Most Grievous Sin of purporting to place limits on the Power of the Commander-in-Chief, something which, to Roberts, is intolerable for our country. He said: "I am concerned that some of the procedural requirements included in the bill may limit the program's effectiveness."

And Jay Rockefeller took the principled, resolute stand for which he has become so widely admired. He said through a spokeswoman that it is "too soon to consider legislation until the oversight subcommittee can answer critical questions about the program."

One last point to note. The Washington Post story contains this summary of the bill, which seems to me, upon reading the bill only for the first time this morning, to be inaccurate:

The bill would allow the NSA to eavesdrop, without a warrant, for up to 45 days per case, at which point the Justice Department would have three options. It could drop the surveillance, seek a warrant from FISA's court, or convince a handful of House and Senate members that although there is insufficient evidence for a warrant, continued surveillance "is necessary to protect the United States," according to a summary the four sponsors provided yesterday.

As indicated, nothing in the bill (as far as I can tell) actually requires the Administration to "convince" the Subcommittee of anything. To the contrary, Section 4(b) expressly states:

(2) CONTINUATION - If the President determines under Paragraph (1) to continue the Terrorist Surveillance Program, the President, through the Attorney General, may continue to the program for an additional 45 days, subject to the requirements of section 2(a)."

Section 2(a) merely defines the scope of whose communications can be intercepted, which means that the bill plainly empowers the President to authorize renewal of the program unilaterally, without needing the approval of anyone. If someone thinks the Post's interpretation is right that the Administration has to "convince" the Subcommittee to continue eavesdropping after the initial 45 day period, I'd be very interested in hearing the basis for that.

This bill reflects quite vividly where we are as a country. The President got caught breaking the law. He claims he has the right to do so. And the Congress, in response, refuses to investigate what the President did, but instead, seeks to find a way to pass a new law which it hopes the President will decide to comply with.

UPDATE: Marty Lederman agrees with my reading that -- contrary to the inaccurate reporting by The Washington Post -- this bill would not require the Administration to "convince" the Subcommitee of anything in order to renew the warrantless eavesdropping after 45 days. All that is required is that the Administration submit to the Subcommittee a certification that renewal is warranted under the criteria set forth in the bill, but the Subcommittee is without any power of any kind to reject or prevent the Administration from engaging in whatever warrantless eavesdropping it wants. As Marty says:

The Administration would not be required to justify its program to the legislators, nor to "convince" them of anything. And the Subcommittees could not, of course, do anthing to stop the program, short of persuading Congress to enact a veto-proof amendment to this law.

It's amazing how frequently wrong the media is about about the most important parts of the stories they report on. Whether or not the Administration is required under this bill to obtain permission of the Congress to continue to engage in warrantless eavesdropping is pretty crucial to the story. There's just no excuse for the Post to tell its readers that this bill requires such approval when it just doesn't.

171 comments:

  1. One question, if it was legal then, why do we need a new piece of legislation? So that Hagel et al can feel better I suppose.

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  2. Anonymous10:52 AM

    Isn't a warrantless wiretap still in conflict with the 4th Amendment? It is still not possible (well, under the old rules anyway) for a law passed by Congress to override the Constitution.

    -pfc

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  3. Anonymous10:56 AM

    Does it mean something that it never actually says "terrorist" in the whole of section 2 (except the title)? It seems like it can be applied to anyone (terrorist suspect or not)so long as they are overseas or suspected of being overseas.

    In resonse to above: it seems like more of a political tactic; something to tell the voters come re-election day. "We helped stop TERRORISM!"

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  4. Isn't a warrantless wiretap still in conflict with the 4th Amendment? It is still not possible (well, under the old rules anyway) for a law passed by Congress to override the Constitution.

    That's an open question. The Supreme Court decided in the 1972 Keith case that the 4th Amendment bars warrantless eavesdropping on Americans as part of investigation into domestic terrorist groups, but expressly said it was leaving open the question as to whether the 4th Amendment requires warrants for investigations into international terrorist groups.

    I have never heard of any remotely rational distinction as to why the 4th Amendment requirements would be different depending upon the type of terrorist group being investigated, since the intrusion by the Government into the commuinications of Americans is the same in both cases. But since the Supreme Court did expressly leave that question open, it's an open question.

    But you are correct that if the 4th Amendment does bar such warrantless surveillance even for investigations into foreign terrorist groups, then this law would be unconstitutional.

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  5. Yeah, it's pretty clearly unconstitutional. It illustrates why the fight against Alito was so important, because he disagrees with that assessment, as does Thomas and as may Scalia and Roberts.

    But, as Glenn has said, this behavior and justification has many tendrils. There will be court cases. There will be tainted evidence ruled inadmissable. This law, if passed, will make its way to the Court.

    But let's see whether it gets passed. Whether Feingold is standing on principle or grandstanding for a long-shot presidential candidacy, I expect a filibuster.

    I also happen to think that both motivations can be held without dishonor. Unlike the cosponsors of this legislation. They know what they're doing. They know it's wrong. And they don't care.

    If they think is actually gonna work--that they can inoculate the president and the party by claiming that warrantless wiretapping is essential to the security of America, they're just wrong. There's too much bad news elsewhere, all news that is going to get worse, for them to hide behind national security issues.

    Moreover, they're gonna lose ground there as well. Refusing to provide port security just gave that issue new life as well. Their fecklessness cannot be hidden any longer.

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  6. Anonymous11:11 AM

    Jay Ackroyd,

    Aren't you a bit optimistic? You expect a FILIBUSTER? Based on what? The Senate Democrackheads abundance of spine? The Senate Republicans abundance of respect for the Consstitution? I'm not that plugged in to the inner working of Capitol Hill, but I'll bet there's at least a 50-50 chance that this gets passed. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I just don't see a filibuster.

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  7. Anonymous11:12 AM

    This is just jaw-dropping unbelievable. In addition to gutting significant parts of the 1st and 4th amendments, it seems to immunize the prez against impeachment charges based on breaking the law. Maybe that's its purpose--it certainly doesn't limit in any what what Bush is doing now. Will this be the issue on which Senator Specter will finally stick to what he says?
    This OUGHT to provoke the sluggish Democrats in the Senate to take the initative by supporting Feingold's censure resolution.

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  8. Anonymous11:21 AM

    Umm, still puzzled by repub arguments here. If many republicans are still claiming that Bush did not break the law because he already has the inherent power to legally do what he is doing, then why are they proposing legislation to make what he is doing legal (retroactively so)? How can they simultaneously claim that what he is doing is legal, yet then go ahead and propose legislation to make it legal???? Oh yeah I forgot this is the Bush administration and republicans we are talking about here, logic is not required.

    -emm

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  9. Anonymous11:23 AM

    This amendment should have the "Nixon defense" label pasted on it. Snappy and memorable, as in SDI = Starwars.

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  10. Anonymous11:24 AM

    This amendment should have the "Nixon defense" label pasted on it. Snappy and memorable, as in SDI = Starwars.

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  11. Anonymous11:25 AM

    Someone on a planet that is a safe distance from us must find this funny. The most corrupt, inept administration that we can remember can actually find volunteers for legislative lobotomy.

    It's impossible to have a serious discussion with anyone who would make such a proposal, yet they were elected and have power, which they are eager to cede to President Jitters.

    Why is it necessary to slap this down? Can't we try legal and constitutional avenues a little while longer, just in case there's something about this country that's worth saving?

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  12. Is it Constitutional for the Congress to pass a law giving up it's check/balance rights/responsibilities?

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  13. Yes, it’s unbelievable. And “njorl” started asking some questions. I think we need to start list of such questions.

    Well, lets ask them (considering their recent rhetoric) isn’t Russ Feingold “working in support of terrorists” and why couldn’t he be monitored under these provisions? Why not? What’s to prevent it?

    If the Committee has no power to stop abusive action (such as spying on Feingold), and it is a crime for them to reveal that the government is doing so, then why should the administration even bother going before the committee at all? If it told them, yes, we're spying on Russ, but you now have to keep it a secret.

    I think we need a list of such questions, using specific examples of potential abuse, to use against those who might support such a bill to embarrass them, and make public the absurdity of such proposals.

    I don’t know if it will work to get some of the more egregious parts of it taken out before something like this passes, nor do I have any idea if this will pass without some tweaking so it isn’t quite such an embarrassment to them. Spector has disappointed before, but it’s worth a try.

    And such questions should certainly be prominent in turning the public against this program (and emboldening Democrats) once they really come to understand the potential for abuse and its essentially saying that we must, in effect, “trust Nixon to do the right thing” and not go after his political enemies.

    Yes, we need to bring “tricky Dick” into this too. How would this bill have affected Nixon? If this bill was the law in 1970 wouldn’t it have made the Watergate break-in and the “plumbers” actions perfectly legal? Why not?

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  14. That people are expressing shock and awe at this legislation is somewhat comical. This admin and its lackeys in the legislature have themselves immune to even a shred of decency when it comes to travestying the constitution. The lead-up to the "war" in Iraq was itself a project in impudent disregard for the truth comprised as it was of lies, deceit, half-truths, and blatant disregard for the constituional manadte that only Congress can declare war.

    On the other hand, I'll ask a rhetorical question, one that I think many people "out there" see as a bedrock concern: "what's so bad about the govt doing this, since if you're not doing anything illegal, then you have nothing to worry about. Indeed, we need more govt surveillance of this kind to catch criminals. Just look at how the US AG caught a despicable ring of pedophiles the other day; if the govt can use technology to catch this vermin, s'all good."

    Again, just some reflection here on how people really might think, once the rubber hits the road. When it comes to matters of privacy vs. security, people are quite willing to give up the former for the latter.

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  15. Anonymous11:55 AM

    I wonder whether the members could be criminally prosecuted for disclosure of abuses. The speech and debate clause gives them a pretty good shield. If they say something on the House or Senate floor, they're clean. (I don't know whether that immunity would apply to communications with the press--anonymous or otherwise). The consequences would have to be political.

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  16. Anonymous11:55 AM

    Jacob Sullum:

    Meanwhile, Bush is not conceding he needs congressional permission at all. "We're eager to work with Congress on legislation that would further codify the president's authority," a White House spokeswoman said. "We remain committed to our principle that we will not do anything that undermines the program's capabilities or the president's authority." In other words: You go ahead and pass your bill if it makes you feel better. We won't feel obligated to follow it unless it happens to coincide with what we were planning to do anyway.

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  17. Anonymous11:58 AM

    Well, at least *Cheney* isn't president, or else shooting people in the face would no longer be a crime.

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  18. So, as I understand it, "working in support of a group or organization deemed to be a terrorist group" is deleting the word "foreign" ? Can't be too paranoid about this so the definition of "terrorist & or terrorist organization is"??? Not a giant step to cover blogs. I've been calling my senators every day on censure, will do so again. This is truly MADNESS.

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  19. ou expect a FILIBUSTER?

    I expect Feingold to keep standing up. Whether he wins or loses cloture, this keeps the issue alive. Whether he is grandstanding or principled, he has already shown that he will act alone if necessary.

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  20. Anonymous12:03 PM

    All of you posting have insightful things to say...I speak solely on frustration and outrage. Thank you Glenn for continuing your insightful analysis and helping to keep the light shining (flickering?) on this debacle. This new legislation is a disgusting piece of work.

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  21. Anonymous12:03 PM

    Is it Constitutional for the Congress to pass a law giving up it's check/balance rights/responsibilities?

    And is it Constitutional for the Congress to pass a law giving up the court's check/balance rights/responsibilities?

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  22. I can't beleive we're even having this conversation. I wasn't allowed to graduate high school until I demonstrated my knowlege of the Constitution. Now were in the the process of gutting the said document and half of America seems to think that that's just hunky-dory!

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  23. Anonymous12:06 PM

    I can't wait to hear what kind of take the resident contrarians have on this.

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  24. Well, lets ask them (considering their recent rhetoric) isn’t Russ Feingold “working in support of terrorists” and why couldn’t he be monitored under these provisions? Why not? What’s to prevent it?



    They've already said that anyone working in oppositon to the "program" (I feel like I've wandered into an episode of The Prisoner) supports terrorism. But you have to assume they're tapping Feingold already. Yet another reason not to discuss this with other people.

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  25. Anonymous12:13 PM

    I think on the surface the AG has to come back to "convince" the committee under (B) Continuation of surveillance- and Rebuttal of presumption- The real question is how hard will that be? They tie the whole thing to FISA (which would make this redundant if it were not a data mining bill) and then let them off the hook with: Rebuttal of presumption- The presumption under paragraph (1) with respect to a target can be rebutted and the AG may continue the surveillance of a target under section 2(a) if- (ii) there is a good faith belief that continued surveillance will result in the acquisition of foreign intelligence information and (B) the President determines that continued surveillance of the target is necessary to protect the US....

    "Honest, we know there is something there, just let us do it another 45 days, and well prove it to ya."

    The "necessary to protect the US" does just what the pres/neocon's want...codefies the unitary executive within our laws.

    What a joke piece of legislation this is. Only it ain't no joke. This is dangerous

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  26. Anonymous12:15 PM

    I for one am sure President McCain can be trusted with these powers. He's a good guy. But I do have one question: What about anonymous denunciations? Can we have anonymous denunciations too? I don't think it's fair that other one-party authoritarian countries get to have secret police and anonymous denunciations and we don't. If I have a swarthy neighbor who's up to no good, I want to feel sure I can denounce him with impunity. It's not about being able to hit on his attractive grief-stricken wife, either. It's purely patriotic. Though she is pretty hot.

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  27. Anonymous12:16 PM

    I think this raises a spectre that I have a thought about for some time now - how much harm do you think was done, ultimately, by Ford's pardoning of Nixon?

    Are we not now arguing that same consititutional issues that would have been raised in that trial 30 years ago?

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  28. Again, just some reflection here on how people really might think, once the rubber hits the road.

    Exactly, if you supported President Nixon then you had nothing to worry about. However, if you opposed him, you threatened our national security, and he was perfectly justified in spying on you and planting false evidence to destroy your political career.

    This law supports Nixon, and says that what he did was within the law.

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  29. Anonymous12:25 PM

    I don't have a problem w/ what Nixon said in that exchange w/ Frost. He's right, as far as he goes in his explanation. During the Clinton Administration, his legal advisors drafted a cautious memorandum advising that Clinton could and should violate the wall then in place between intelligence communities, if national security required it. They said it could be done only rarely and in a true emergency, but that the president held inherent authority to put national security first.

    The example that comes to mind is if, say, the CIA learned that some neo-Nazi group in Europe was funneling explosives or bioterror weapons to Timmy McVeigh, and the U.S. nutjobs were planning to deploy in a month or two, then it would be insane not to authorize that the FBI be told.

    But such exceptions had to truly be such, and cannot constitute standard operating procedure. Justice Jackson left room for that in his Youngstown opinion, when he identified exigent circumstances such as insurrection or rebellion as times when the president's inherent authority trumps Congress. If Bush had violated FISA by not putting time into securing warrants only in the month after 9/11, I don't think we'd be talking about a scandal. It is his institutionalization of the practice that makes what he is doing manifestly illegal.

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  30. Anonymous12:31 PM

    Glenn said:

    Thus, a program which intercepts the communications of totally innocent people with no connection to terrorism is perfectly fine as long as the program also intercepts communications of someone who does have such connections.

    This bill is a perfect setup for government data miners.

    What a sad state of affairs for our country. It's amazing to see the low regard our "leaders" have for us and our rights.

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  31. drbb said: Can we have anonymous denunciations too? I don't think it's fair that other one-party authoritarian countries get to have secret police and anonymous denunciations and we don't. If I have a swarthy neighbor who's up to no good, I want to feel sure I can denounce him with impunity. It's not about being able to hit on his attractive grief-stricken wife, either. It's purely patriotic. Though she is pretty hot.

    I think you've hit on something here. I think you're being facetious, but the psychological truth behind the comment bears some comment. First, in the land of "keeping up with the Joneses," such legislation simply reinforces that patetrn of envy and resentment. The squishy poll sumbers on whether epople think eavedropping is wrong reflect this attitude, I think. In other words, people always think there's something wrong with the neighbors. With this legislation, now I can report them too when they look a bit off-color.

    Second, the legislation creates a climate in which distrust and paranoia towards others becomes a part of the law. Soem may scoff at this idea, but I have anecdotal evidence for it. In debate with one of mys students, she made the remark that "NSA eavesdropping was necessary because (I paraphrase) everyone now is a potential terrorist."

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  32. My head just exploded. In addition to the Quakers the Pentagon was spying on before, now we know that the FBI was spying on antiwar groups because they were antiwar. As part of their counterterrorism program. And that's nothing compared to what had been done in the 60's and 70's, when "every black student union" in the country was spied on for being violent "black nationalists."

    The power to classify anyone you want as a terrorist supporter for purposes of spying on them and wrecking their lives simply cannot be unreviewable.

    One step closer to the "Extending the Boundaries of Legality Act (EBOLA)," I suppose. It's not hard to see how that satire could come true, and it's scary.

    Dave

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  33. Anonymous12:36 PM

    On the other hand, I'll ask a rhetorical question, one that I think many people "out there" see as a bedrock concern: "what's so bad about the govt doing this, since if you're not doing anything illegal, then you have nothing to worry about. Indeed, we need more govt surveillance of this kind to catch criminals. Just look at how the US AG caught a despicable ring of pedophiles the other day; if the govt can use technology to catch this vermin, s'all good."

    Librarian's rhetoric question needs to be addressed because it leads directly to a problem I believe many Americans would have with this NSA program.

    What of the archival records of this wiretapping program? This must include personal (for identification purposes) information about individual citizens. Not simply names, but it could include addresses, telephone numbers, cell numbers, emails, banking records, SSN, medical records. Americans have been dutifully "terrorized" for some time now about identity theft. A lot of people (especially older people) shred their bills and mail and take extraordinary steps to try to protect their identities from thieves and others who would use their personal information for criminal/fraudulent purposes. Do we truly want these incompetent, corrupt officials to have responsibility for this personal information? I'm well acquainted with the old saw: "I haven't got anything to hide." But to those who use that reasoning I would reply: Do you want your personal identity information shared?

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  34. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Hypatia:

    How can you say that "what Nixon says is perfectly fine, as far as it goes" when one of the things he says is that "if the President does it, then it's not illegal?"

    You pose a perfectly reasonable scenario under which Presidential authority to oversee national security with the CIA/FBI interagency cooperation situation, but that clearly isn't what Nixon was talking about. He was saying that if he decided that it would be in the country's best interests to have his henchmen drag 30 prominent liberals into the Rose Garden and have them hanged, then it would be legal because "the President did it."

    And while I agree that something would need to be done regarding interagency communication, I think it is incumbent upon legislative bodies to contemplate those scenarios and change the law accordingly.

    When you start venturing into the territory of sweeping general concepts like "national security" and then argue that the President can do whatever he unilaterally believes in the best interests of sustaining it, you are in effect advocating dictatorial powers. People like Karl Rove and Bush's legal hacks have made a living obfuscating basic realities, and it would not be difficult at all for them to concoct "national security" concerns from almost every policy arena, be it foreign or domestic.

    When we grant these kinds of powers, what's to stop a President from deciding that we need to indoctrinate schoolchildren into Christianity because otherwise they'll be at risk for recruitment by Al-Qaeda?

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  35. Anonymous12:44 PM

    I think this settles once and for all the notion of Snowe, Hagle and similar "mavericks" as being anything more than cheap and dirty freedom and liberty hating pigs. Period.

    This bill is the most un-American thing I have ever read!

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  36. Epsilon said: When we grant these kinds of powers, what's to stop a President from deciding that we need to indoctrinate schoolchildren into Christianity because otherwise they'll be at risk for recruitment by Al-Qaeda?

    I'm sure you've heard of the Homeland Defense "faith-based" Center, right?

    According to an executive order signed by Bush: "Sec. 2. Purpose of Center. The purpose of the Center shall be to coordinate agency efforts to eliminate regulatory, contracting, and other programmatic obstacles to the participation of faith-based and other community organizations in the provision of social and community services."

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  37. Anonymous12:47 PM

    That's it. Time to leave the country.

    If I knew less about history, or only knew American history, I might be advocating for bloody revolution. I do, I don't, and I'm not. Bloody revolution usually results in a government worse then the one before it.

    But history also shows us where this sort of thing is heading, and it isn't really all that long a trip from where we are now. I see no good alternatives other then to be far, far away before the, now nearly inevitable, consequences of this horrible legislation and everything that has led up to it.

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  38. Anonymous12:48 PM

    Here's a question for some enterprising reporter to ask of one of these principled conservative defenders of law, order, and presidential infallibility: "Is there anything Bush could do which you would *not* make legal after the fact? Child abuse? Incest? Murder? Where would you draw the line?"

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  39. Sorry for the re-submit, but there’s no edit function on the comments section. My typos in this are worse than usual.

    drbb said: Can we have anonymous denunciations too? I don't think it's fair that other one-party authoritarian countries get to have secret police and anonymous denunciations and we don't. If I have a swarthy neighbor who's up to no good, I want to feel sure I can denounce him with impunity. It's not about being able to hit on his attractive grief-stricken wife, either. It's purely patriotic. Though she is pretty hot.

    I think you've hit on something here. I think you're being facetious, but the psychological truth behind your remark bears some comment. First, in the land of "keeping up with the Joneses," such legislation simply reinforces that pattern of envy and resentment. The squishy poll numbers on whether people think eavesdropping is wrong reflect this attitude, I think. In other words, people always think there's something wrong with “the neighbors”. With this legislation, now I can report them too when they look a bit off-color.

    Second, the legislation creates a climate in which distrust and paranoia towards others becomes a part of the law. Some may scoff at this idea, but I have anecdotal evidence for it. In debate with one of my students, she made the remark that "NSA eavesdropping was necessary because [I paraphrase] everyone now is a potential terrorist."

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  40. Anonymous12:52 PM

    epsilon says: How can you say that "what Nixon says is perfectly fine, as far as it goes" when one of the things he says is that "if the President does it, then it's not illegal?"

    Well, I've read only the brief excerpt that Glenn posted, and maybe in the larger context of that exchange Nixon implied something extreme or nefarious. But that snippet could be read to mean that the president -- alone among citizens -- does have Article II inherent authority to violate the law. That authority is greatly restricted by Justice Jackson in Youngstown, to true emergencies. Clinton's legal advisors very cautiously so told their boss.

    What Bush is doing, however, is a far cry from anything permitted by Youngstown. He is claiming he can always violate any law of Congress, whenever and forever, just by labeling it a national security matter. There is no way on earth the courts would find that to be consistent with Youngstown.

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  41. Anonymous1:00 PM

    So if he has the power to do as he pleases why does he need an 'Enabling Act"? and why won't one journalist ask one of these distinguished senators what the hell they are smoking?

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  42. (2) The bill allows warrantless eavesdropping programs where there is "probable cause" to believe that one of the individuals whose communications will be intercepted as part of the program is someone “working in support of a group or organization” deemed to be a terrorist group (Section 2(a)(2)).

    Aside from the looseness of the net (everyone who might possibly be talking to a terrorist) and the lack of a proper standard or means of review of "probable cause", there's also the problem of who is "deemed to be a terrorist group". That's been groups like ALF and ELF so far, and probably even the Quakers, and other "anti-war" groups.

    This is mind-boggling, really. You'd think that the LGFers and Freepers would be up in arms about this ... but they're too stoopid to realise that under the terms of the law, they should be "Target #1"!!!

    Cheers,

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  43. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Whether they even are self-conscious enough to understand what they are doing, this administration and its apologists are undertaking the destrcution of American law and reducing it to the sort found in any totalitarian system. That is, the law becomes nothing more than what is decided on a particular date by the government for the purpose of maintaining government power. Under these systems, law is applied downward against the governed and is completely arbitrary in its application. To call it law is not even correct, it is really nothing more than institutionalized violence. That is the ultimate logic of this legislation and once it is passed, because it will be, someone in the very near future, will attempt to use these powers to their logical fulfillment.

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  44. Anonymous1:07 PM

    Early reports on this legislation included that it would have a reporters' gag rule. I just skimmed the pdf and didn't see that, it seemed to me that it's only the "Oversight" (HA!) members who are covered by it. But I'm not a lawyer, and don't know exactly what everything in there means.

    Glenn, could you comment directly on whether reporters are prohibited to report on "the Program" under this proposed legislation? Thanks

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  45. Glenn, could you comment directly on whether reporters are prohibited to report on "the Program" under this proposed legislation? Thanks

    Reporters are not included. They must have taken that out from the last draft I mentioned that in the post (but only in passing).

    The only ones who can be penalized for disclosing classified information are those "authorized by law to receive such information" - that includes Senators, but not reporters.

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  46. Anonymous1:13 PM

    Arne L. writes: This is mind-boggling, really. You'd think that the LGFers and Freepers would be up in arms about this ... but they're too stoopid to realise that under the terms of the law, they should be "Target #1"!!!

    They wouldn't care. I've read many such people saying that if Bush wants to listen to their calls, let him. Because they "have nothing to hide."

    This is the new patriotism: Big Brother Bush can violate any of my rights to nab the terrorists.

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  47. christ said: "Here's a question for some enterprising reporter to ask of one of these principled conservative defenders of law, order, and presidential infallibility..."

    What makes you think the press 1) cares or 2) is capable of doing it? As a recent article points out, the once powerful media run about two dozen stories a day. These are usually quite trivial stories. On top of that, the stories are repeated ad nauseam from medium to medium.

    Heck, RawStory won't even provide a link that I sent to them about a very important, critical anlaysis of the pro-Israel lobby in the US.

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  48. Isn't a warrantless wiretap still in conflict with the 4th Amendment? It is still not possible (well, under the old rules anyway) for a law passed by Congress to override the Constitution.

    I'm of the firm opinion that the warrant requirement means a warrant is required. Plain language of the law, you know.... But there's a creeeping "exigent circumstances" exception to the warrant requirement (as well as a strangling constriction of the definition os what is in fact a "search"). I've posted previously on my own mothbitten blog my take on "emergency" situations, and what I think the proper solutions is to such "exigent circumstances".

    The solution (saving you a look at the pretty fishes on my blog) is easy: You have an emergency, do what you think you have to do, but don't expect the results of your illegality to be respected in a court of law, and be prepared to pay the price for your own lawbreaking. Hey, if it was so damned important, surely you won't feel too bad about a little personal sacrifice (a little fine or jail) for doing your "service to the greater public good"....

    Cheers,

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  49. To: All fools who believe in the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" bullshit.

    Ignoring practical matters for the moment (eg, can we trust gw to determine what "wrong" is?), there is one paramount theoretical concern.

    The bullshit constitutes a fundamental shift in the burden of proof. One of the notions that we like to think America is founded upon is the notion that one is PRESUMED innocent. If the state thinks otherwise, the burden is ON THEM to provide reason to believe otherwise.

    The bullshit notion turns this EXACTLY on its head. According to that notion, we CITIZENS receive no such presumption. On that notion, the state gets the right to pursue us with no reason. It does no good AFTER THE FACT to say that everything will be fine if we TURN OUT to be innocent. The PRESUMPTION of innocence has been lost, and with it, a substantial part of what made America great - in theory at least.

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  50. Anonymous1:17 PM

    Thanks, Glenn. I'm trying to formulate my call to the Senators' offices.

    Cripes, why can't these guys leave the Constitution alone for a week or two so I can get some work done?!

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  51. Addendum:

    What's most disturbing is NOT that the state seeks this power - it's the nature of entities to seek to increase their power.

    What's most disturbing is that large numbers of CITIZENS are just fine with giving up their own goddamn rights.

    I guess that's proof sufficient that America really doesn't deserve such rights in the first place... sigh...

    Christ - Americans not even willing to fight for their own rights... who woulda thunk it?

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  52. Anonymous1:22 PM

    So, let's sum up Dewine's Bill. Bush/Rove can collect all the information they want on Americans so long as they "certify" that the people they are spying on are suspicious for 45 days and longer if they recertify their spying. Congress can question the spying but they can take no enforcement actions if the spying is abused but can be punished if they report the abuse.

    Please remember that Sherrod Brown, a true progressive, is running against this DeWine clown in November.

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  53. Anonymous1:24 PM

    One gets the feeling most Americans don't actually realize their fundamental rights (life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, the presumption of innocence, protection against unlawful search and seizure) are being systematically negated. Why should they?

    After all, 'it can't happen here', can it?

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  54. Anonymous1:30 PM

    Ok -- perhaps I am a little on edge. But I just called Nancy Pelosi's office and reamed her out (see her comments in MSNBC link below).

    Americans are DYING to get rid of this president for all kinds of reasons, not least of which is fear about what more he can screw up with another 1039 days in office.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11866980/

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  55. For those interested in an analysis some of the reasons for the "After all, 'it can't happen here', can it?" phenomenon, there's this article by sociologist Richard Sennett on what he calls "soft fascism."

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  56. Anonymous1:36 PM

    The irony of this is that if it passes (and any Democrat who signs on to this has lost his/her mind}, Bush will issue a signing statement that will say he can do whatever he wants anyway. So, after he doesn't follow this new "law," how long before the Republicans have to pass another bill to make lawful whatever the Boy King does next?

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  57. Anonymous1:48 PM

    45 days to report to Congress?

    Tell me, has he been meeting the requirement to report to Congress every 60 days about using troops in Iraq, which Congress imposed in October 2002 when they gave him the power to commit our troops to the invasion of Iraq?

    Has he conformed to the requirements of the War Powers Act, which Congress also required back then?

    Has he ever lived up to an obligation in his life?

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  58. Anonymous1:49 PM

    Hypatia --

    Nixon didn't just imply that "if the President does it, it is not illegal," nor did Glenn simply paraphrase his meaning. Those are almost Nixon's exact words, which can be found in that transcript.

    I agree with much of what you're saying, but who decides what a sufficient "emergency" is? The president himself? The courts, long after the damage has already been done? Or the law?

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  59. For a good analysis of how the media spun Feingold's censure resolution, see Media Matters for America.

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  60. Anonymous1:55 PM

    The only thing missing from this abomination is a sunset clause saying that this amendment expires on January 15, 2009 or until a Democrat is elected president, whichever comes later.

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  61. "the nixon defense": how about a tv commercial of this nixon clip? I would hope that nixon hasn't been so rehabilitated (yet) that the american people would accept this.... maybe jane can get some of her hollywood friends working on it...

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  62. Anonymous2:12 PM

    What ever happened to considerations of "unbridled discretion?" Put another way, this new "law" is precisely the "blank check when it comes to the civil liberties of [American] citizens" that the USSC recently rejected. (What was the vote on that on the high court?)

    One thing to remember though is that this can still be used as a wedge issue against Repubs. Specter has already said the proposal goes too far, there will be debate on it, and in this context the Censure resolution is an excellent monkeywrench in the ability of Rove & Co. to close the debate because it will help peel off traditional conservatives like Bob Barr, Bruce Fein and media people like Jonathan Turley who, by the way, has condemned the program in terms as strong as anyone has. Turley and Fein even participated in John Conyers's "basement" hearing on the matter several weeks ago, where the Quaker guy testified about his group being spied upon and harrassed.

    Finally, as a very astute anonymous commenter here said the other day, (paraphrasing), the terrorists win when we dismantle our system of government based on the fear of what they'll do to us if we don't.

    The undelying debate there is one that desperately needs to take place, to the extent the War on Terror is a FRAUD; terrorism is a superb tool for, among a great many other things, Bush's intention to crush internal dissent (how many more times do they have to tell folks that their dissent helps the terrorists until people realize that?) And until this demagogic terrorist card is effectively removed from their playbook not much will change.

    Bush's power-grab plays directly into the hands of Osama Bin Laden.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

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  63. Anonymous2:13 PM

    I am dunbfounded at the pathetic reasoning by Dewine to introduce legislation that the pres says is unnecessary because Article II of the constitution gives him the unbridled authority to do whatever the hell he wants!! Dewine,Hagel,and Snowe have a very vigorous passion for making themselves look like morons!

    this is the kind of leadership and representation we can all be proud of!!

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  64. I just had a terrible thought. Glenn points out the great leeway that this bill gives to just who can be surveilled under it. I had the thought that if this is enacted, would blogs then become subject to it? Public forums are a form of 'communication'.

    I mean the admin has been saying the rather vague language of the AUMF gave them authority to do this in first place, why not say blogs are subject because they contain content that not only can be construed as being 'in support of' terrorism but also may be read by anyone in a foreign country (both are covered in the bill).

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  65. Anonymous2:29 PM

    Blogwhoring, but my thoughts on the larger meaning of the reluctance to back censure is here. I really think Feingold has caused a beneficial rift that shows most of our leaders for the elitist petulants they are, but what really matters is whether it all plays out in a way that results in a stronger Democratic party to fight the bad guys.

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  66. Anonymous2:29 PM

    I guess on a go-forward basis we should just assume that Big Brother is listening or monitoring at all times.

    So how to preserve privacy when our government insists we don't have a right to it any longer.

    We need stronger encryption, new code words shared only among trusted friends, new ways of communicating off the grid, etc.

    So we can make the NSA assholes' heads explode or at the very least waste their time with nonsensical (to them) coversations. No doubt the real bad guys already do this. Maybe everyone concerned about living in a police state should.

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  67. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Don't blame just the Washington Post.

    Note they are reporting from the "summary the four sponsors provided yesterday." I have not yet seen this "summary," but if the Washington Post is faithfully representing what is in that document, then the 4 sponsors are fraudulently promoting their own bill.

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  68. Anonymous2:33 PM

    According to Assrocket and other conservative Bush apologists, what Bush has done is perfectly legal already. Hence this bill is unnecessary. Right? Right?

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  69. Don't blame just the Washington Post.

    Note they are reporting from the "summary the four sponsors provided yesterday." I have not yet seen this "summary," but if the Washington Post is faithfully representing what is in that document, then the 4 sponsors are fraudulently promoting their own bill.


    I couldn't disagree more. The greatest sin of the media - their gravest failure - is their mindless passing along of politicians' statements even when those statements are utterly false. The whole purpose of the media - their entire function - is to scrutinize claims like that and inform their readers about what is true and what isn't true - not "faithfully report" false statements from politicians.

    There is no reason the WP shouldn't have a reporter capable of reading a statute and realizing that this statement is just false. It's not a minor error - whether the Administraiton has to obtain approval for warrantless eavesdropping on Americans goes to the heart of the whole controversy. The WP wrote this story and got that issue completely wrong.

    I highly doubt this WP reporter - Charles Babbington - even read the statute he was writing about. He was too lazy. He just read the summary about it provided by the sponors of it and then regurgitated. That isn't journalism.

    And just by the way, I don't know what "summary" he is talking about, but I read DeWine's press release on the bill (which I bet is what Babbington is referring to) and it does NOT say that the Subcommittee has to be convinced to approve renewal of the program. The Press release accurately describes what the bill requires. So he didn't even do a good job with his stenography.

    But as I said, even if the summary were inaccurate, it is the job of the reporter to report on what is true and what isn't. I wrote Babbington an e-mail detailing his error (and citing Marty Lederman as well) and telling him he owes his readers a correction. We'll see what happens.

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  70. Anonymous2:56 PM

    OT – but not really, as an amusing example of how Bush worshippers will go to any ridiculous lengths to ensure the Leader cannot be held accountable for incompetence and failure. John at Powerline shows us how Bush will be shielded from criticism for the mess in Iraq:

    In truth, we likely won't know whether the Iraq war was a success or a failure, a good idea or a bad idea, for another twenty or thirty years, when the consequences of the effort not only in Iraq, but throughout the region, become clear. For now, we can only guess. But my guess is that our effort in Iraq will succeed, and that that conflict will eventually come to be seen as an important step in the vital process of bringing reform to the Arab world, and thereby defusing the threat of Islamic terrorism.

    See, success or failure cannot be measured until 30 years from now. Sell that to Americans, John.

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  71. Anonymous3:19 PM

    Don't blame just the Washington Post.

    Glenn - note the word "just." I agree with you that the WP screwed up here and even more so if the reporter did not even read the statute.

    But if the "summary" from the 4 Senators is indeed "innacurate," then I think it's important to find out whether that innaccuracy was deliberate. After all, how will these bill sponsors even try to sell their proposal without creative spin?

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  72. Anonymous3:20 PM

    See, success or failure cannot be measured until 30 years from now. Sell that to Americans, John.

    I think it's fair to say that the success of the Korean War (a free and prosperous South Korea) was only evident thirty years after its conclusion in 1953. Moreover, we still have over 30,000 US military personnel stationed in South Korea.

    I think the American people are sophisticated enough to realize our military committment in Iraq is likely to persist for decades and are ready to support that committment as long as the level of violence subsides significantly in the relatively near future.

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  73. Anonymous3:33 PM

    I think the American people are sophisticated enough to realize our military committment in Iraq is likely to persist for decades and are ready to support that committment as long as the level of violence subsides significantly in the relatively near future.

    You haven't looked at the polls lately have you anon? The American people are rightly rejecting this idiotic, ruinous smash-n-grab war. Face it, our military is the best there is at blowing shit up from a safe distance, but utterly useless for nation building. Not that nation building has anything to do with why we're there.

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  74. Anonymous3:42 PM

    You haven't looked at the polls lately have you anon?

    Just remember that if you decide to live by polls you'll die by polls. I won't be surprised if by November you'll be gnashing your teeth in frustration at how the support for Bush and the support for the Iraq war are 10-15 points higher than they are at present. And then where will you be?

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  75. Anonymous3:43 PM

    Oh, let's hope the Korean War is a harbinger of what Americans do. That war was unpopular, and Dwight Eisenhower was elected President in 1952 after making a promise to end it a prominent part of his campaign.

    And let us also hope that the GOP runs on a platform of "We Won't Know for 30 Years." John's clearly on to a winning theme, here.

    /snark

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  76. Anonymous3:50 PM

    I won't be surprised if by November you'll be gnashing your teeth in frustration at how the support for Bush and the support for the Iraq war are 10-15 points higher than they are at present.

    Whatever warflogger. Riddle me this: where's the manpower coming from to carry on this crusade to liberate our oil from under the brown people's sand? Have you enlisted or encouraged your military-aged relatives to do so?

    I myself have dissuaded 3 nephews and 2 non-relatives from enlisting. Counter-recruiting is very satisfying work I must say.

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  77. Anonymous3:51 PM

    Glenn,

    You're being so negative about this legislation...

    Why not try to look on the bright side for once: Unlike the Feingold censure proposal, this DeWine bill is at least likely to have bipartisan support!

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  78. Anonymous3:56 PM

    This law reminds me of a bit that Robin Williams used to do about British Bobbies not carrying guns. When in pursuit of the Bad Guys all they could do is shout "Stop! Or I'll shout 'Stop!' again!".

    This law provides about as much protection as gunless Bobbies. A small group of senators can shout 'Stop!' all they want. You'd be insane to expect this administration to obey.

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  79. Anonymous4:16 PM

    The Korean War was successful? Only if you focus exclusively on the South, and only if it turns out the North doesn't one day nuke several Southern cities to radioactive slag.

    We prevented the enslavement of millions of South Koreans...that is certainly worthy of the appellation "success." More importantly, I suspect that if we hadn't prevented the Chinese and North Koreans from subjugating South Korea the threat we'd be facing from a nuclear Korea would be far more significant than that which we face today.

    ...he subsequent deaths of 100,000 to 200,000 Iraqis...

    Those numbers are utterly absurd and insupportable, except if you are speaking of the number of bodies in Saddam's mass graves, and then you'd be off by a factor of 100%...on the low side.

    It is a blunder common in history to believe that outcomes, especially outcomes 30 years on, are the result of specific single actions.

    We disagree. I'd say it is more common than not that historical outcomes are determined by specific single actions. The Russian Revolution, for instance, or the battle of Gettysburg.

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  80. Anonymous4:17 PM

    Regarding WaPo's misrepresentation of the subcommitte's powers: Don't these damned 'major' newspapers have a legal team (in or out of house) that tries to make sure that the stories printed don't contain legal horse shit?

    Actually I could help them, and I am not even a lawyer.

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  81. Blogger has been acting odd today again. I apologize if this is a repeat.

    For those interested in an analysis some of the reasons for the "After all, 'it can't happen here', can it?" phenomenon, there's this article by sociologist Richard Sennett on what he calls "soft fascism."

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  82. Anonymous4:24 PM

    Riddle me this: where's the manpower coming from to carry on this crusade to liberate our oil from under the brown people's sand?

    That's cute....but silly.

    Be assured that whomever is controlling Iraq will be "liberating" its oil and bringing it to market. Just be thankful it isn't Saddam Hussein, who used the revenues he garnered from that oil to commit ghastly acts of violence and terror, and would have done much worse if we hadn't removed him and his fellow fascist thugs from power.

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  83. Anonymous4:26 PM

    Those numbers are utterly absurd and insupportable

    Good thing the Pentagon "doesn't do bodycounts" and has quashed every effort to get an accurate count of the civilians we've "liberated" from this mortal coil.

    You're one contemptible war crime apologist, aren't you?

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  84. Anonymous4:53 PM

    Graham might have been influenced by his close friend McCain. Although the Arizonan has been silent on the NSA matter AFAIK,

    Quite some time ago on Fox they asked McCain point blank whether he thought Bush's warrantless spying was legal. A pained expression crossed his face and he mumbled, "I don't think so."

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  85. Anonymous5:08 PM

    Do you actually believing calling us "war crime apologists" will do your side any good?

    I can't speak for anyone else, but:

    Right is right and wrong is wrong. 100,000 dead civilians killed by liars who tricked good Americans into pulling the trigger is wrong, and I don't care what anyone else says, whether they're on my "side" or not (whatever that is.)

    Criticizing Bush's criminal actions in no way constitutes an endorsement of Hussein's criminal actions.

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  86. Anonymous5:11 PM

    Still feeling optimistic, Glenn? Because I could use some sunshine right about now.

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  87. Anonymous5:12 PM

    Friday, March 17, 2006 6:40 a.m. EST
    Curt Weldon: Bin Laden Is Dead

    Rep. Curt Weldon, who broke the Able Danger story last year revealing that military intelligence had identified lead hijacker Mohamed Atta as a terrorist threat before the 9/11 attacks, now says that Osama bin Laden has died.

    Weldon made the stunning claim during an interview Wednesday with the Philadelphia Inquirer, which reported: "Weldon is making explosive new allegations. He says a high-level source has told him that terrorist leader Osama bin Laden has died in Iran, where he has been in hiding".....


    OK. No WMD in Iraq. Bin Laden, the person accused of being behind 9/11, is dead.

    Is the "War on Terrorism" over now? Can we stop all the illegal spying on American citizens? Are the President's "inherent powers" in wartime not applicable any more? Can we leave Iraq?

    Or is anything which the President does legal until the last Vegan or Catholic Workers Party member who is under surveillance by the FBI has been wiped off the face of this earth?

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  88. Anonymous5:20 PM

    But, as the Washington Post has reported, the chief judge of the lower FISC court has already warned the government that it likely would lose if any such argument were made in the court in a real case.

    Question: The day after the NSA story broke in the NYT (conveniently one year after it was known and one year after the election of our president who is in fact a war criminal under international and domestic law) one of the Fisa judges resigned. I seem to remember that the judge gave as his reason that all evidence in any cases brought under this program was now tainted. (Fruit of the Poisoned Tree stuff). Does anyone know who this man is? Has he made any additional statements? What does he think of the DeWine/Nixonian bill?

    And Glenn, you are absolutely right about Babbington. He's lazy. I have to read proposed legislation a good bit. The "summary" is like an advertizement. You have to actually read the proposed legislation to know/reason out the impact.

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  89. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Otherwise, if it will be possible to filibuster it, I'd love to see which Democrat would have the gall to vote for cloture.

    Look to the reauthorization of the Patriot Act (98-3 in the Senate) for a clue as to what the margin of victory will be if Dewine's bill comes to the Senate floor supported by the White House.

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  90. Anonymous5:52 PM

    AngusReid among others have recent polls that indicate more than half of Americans believe we were lied into this war.

    That's some some tiny leftist lunatic fringe you have there, warflogging tool.

    No comment on the fact that the Pentagon has shut down any attempt to find out exactly how many innocent Iraqis had to pay the ultimate price for our illegal invasion huh? Very convenient that.

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  91. Anonymous5:52 PM

    1. There have not been 100,000 dead civilians.
    ....

    Do you actually believe that such views are held by any more than a tiny fringe at the far left of the political spectrum?


    I don't know where the "far left" of the political spectrum is located but I can tell you this. Tens of thousands of civilians have died in the misbegotten "preemptive" war.

    And lest you doubt my own "far left" credentials, let me tell you where my son is on this St. Patrick's Day. He's driving a Humvee up in Samarra with his Guard unit in support of the 101st.

    And btw: From MSNBC's internet poll.

    Operation Swarmer: Turning point in Iraq or politically timed?

    * 3937 responses

    Turning point

    14%
    Politically timed

    86%
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080...3080261/ #survey

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  92. Essentially, this bill merely makes amends FISA to remove the types of foreign intelligence gathering performed under the blown NSA Program. Given how close this bill comports with the NSA Program disclosed by Risen's book and the NYT, it looks like they pretty much blew the entire program to the enemy. This bill does not cover many of the other types of data mining like Able Danger disclosed in the past. This is a very targeted bill.

    Contrary to some suggestions on this thread, this bill does not take anything which used to be illegal and make it legal. The courts have not required that the President obtain a warrant under the 4th Amendment for any foreign intelligence gathering which is ratified by this bill. Rather, the courts have held that Article II provided this power to the President all along.

    Congress is avoiding a fight here over a very popular program coming into conflict with a statute of questionable constitutionality. In reality, this bill kicks the issue of the constitutionality of FISA (not the NSA Program) down the road by backing off on this particular type of program.

    The President will agree to this negotiated bill with a signing statement that he is not conceding that this bill in any way limits his Article II powers.

    In this way, Congress and the President are deferring this separation of powers battle.

    This bill also makes an ongoing affirmative request by Congress to the President for extensive information concerning the operations and results of this foreign intelligence gathering. This is significant in its scope and its ongoing duties because Congress will often fail to do this on their own.

    Finally, the criminal disclosure penalty is directly aimed at all the new senators, representatives and especially their staff who will now be privy to the largest disclosure of intelligence data of any kind provided to Congress to date. The WH was very uncomfortable making this level of highly classified intelligence to bodies who have a very poor record of keeping operational security. I think this was their price for agreeing to the extensive disclosure requirements in the rest of the bill.

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  93. Anonymous6:07 PM

    Anonymous Government Minder Writes:
    ...he subsequent deaths of 100,000 to 200,000 Iraqis...

    Those numbers are utterly absurd and insupportable, except if you are speaking of the number of bodies in Saddam's mass graves, and then you'd be off by a factor of 100%...on the low side.


    In late 2004, the highly respected British Medical Journal, Lancet, published a study claiming that the Iraq war had resulted in 100,000 Iraqi deaths. While based on estimating techniques that may be open to question, this study, which passed peer review, is far from absurd or insupportable.

    Unless, of course, you're paid by the Pentagon to spread disniformation, or you're a neocon koolaid drinker. In that case, anything that disagrees with what Bush says is automatically absurd and insupportable.

    The Washington Post reported on the Lancet study in October 2004 in an article titled, "100,000 Civilian Deaths Estimated in Iraq"... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn
    /articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html).

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:14 PM

    Finally, the criminal disclosure penalty is directly aimed at all the new senators, representatives and especially their staff who will now be privy to the largest disclosure of intelligence data of any kind provided to Congress to date. The WH was very uncomfortable making this level of highly classified intelligence to bodies who have a very poor record of keeping operational security. I think this was their price for agreeing to the extensive disclosure requirements in the rest of the bill.

    Cookies with your Koolaid, anyone?

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  95. Anonymous6:17 PM

    I'm not as concerned with what it will allow in the future (I am concerned, but it's not the only focus of concern I should say). What I wonder is whether the law is to apply retroactively or not. Is it a get-out-of-jail-free card for the admin's prior unlawful acts? thoughts?

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  96. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Tens of thousands of civilians have died in the misbegotten "preemptive" war.

    Yes, unfortunately this is true. The question is, however, how many would be dead if we hadn't prosecuted this war? Many Iraq war supporters (myself included) believe that this war has prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not millions of deaths, by removing the cancer of Saddam Hussein from power.

    And lest you doubt my own "far left" credentials, let me tell you where my son is on this St. Patrick's Day. He's driving a Humvee up in Samarra with his Guard unit in support of the 101st.

    I will pray for your son's safety. His honorable service to our nation must make you very proud.

    and btw: From MSNBC's internet poll....

    I would be very wary of relying on internet polls if I were you.

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  97. Anonymous6:34 PM

    It appears from skimming the statute that while the determination to intercept communication cannot be based soley on activity protected by the first amendment, it doesn't appear that this limitation is applied directly to the determination as to whether the the individual is "working in support" of a terrorist organization.

    In other words, it appears that the administration can determine that all of its opponents are supporting a terrorist organization based upon their speech, but then has to have ANY non-protected activity to allow intercepts. Examples could include a misdeameanor conviction, sexual orientation, or, as a warning to Senators on the Intelligence Committee, having a security clearance.

    Or am I missing something?

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  98. Anonymous6:35 PM

    In late 2004, the highly respected British Medical Journal, Lancet, published a study claiming that the Iraq war had resulted in 100,000 Iraqi deaths.

    This study is very controversial and is rarely quoted by anyone other than those with an ax to grind.

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  99. Anonymous6:36 PM

    Yes, unfortunately this is true. The question is, however, how many would be dead if we hadn't prosecuted this war? Many Iraq war supporters (myself included) believe that this war has prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not millions of deaths, by removing the cancer of Saddam Hussein from power.

    Ah, so this is your hope, your wish, your "belief". I see, said the blind man.

    Juan Cole has reported that the population of the US is approximately 11 times that of Iraq. By that ratio, if a similar percentage of civilian deaths had occurred in a "preemptive" war in this country, more than 1,100,000 civilians would have died.

    And BTW, remember who put the evil tyrant Sadaam in power in the first place.

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  100. Anonymous6:42 PM

    Many Iraq war supporters (myself included) believe that this war has prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not millions of deaths, by removing the cancer of Saddam Hussein from power

    Why would you think something so patently absurd besides that it might help you as a cheerleader for mass murder sleep at night?

    Saddamm, though a thug and scumbag, was a defanged thug and scumbag whose mass murdering days (you know, back when we were tight with him?) were well behind him.

    Who appointed you and Shrub god to decide it's fine for us to murder tens of thousands of Iraqis who were NO THREAT to us? (and to rape and torture a good number of them while we're at it)

    And who but a moron or paid Bush proagandist is stupid enough to believe we're there to help the Iraqi people? Stop pretending you give a good goddamn about the Iraqi people.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous6:43 PM

    "This study is very controversial and is rarely quoted by anyone other than those with an ax to grind."

    It's highly controversial to innumerate morons who don't have a goddam clue about statistics, and who, quite coincidentally I'm sure, always have an axe to grind.

    You need to enroll yourself in a statistics course, pass it with grade B or better, and then wade through Tim Lambert's patient elucidations of the nearly infinite mistakes and misrepresentations that the innumerate endlessly iterate about this study.

    Note to wingnuts, repetition of stupidity does not generate truth. Truly, this is Idiot Nation.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous6:45 PM

    Ah, so this is your hope, your wish, your "belief". I see, said the blind man.

    Ask the 50,000,000 dead that would have been alive if a certain tyrant had been removed from power when he re-occupied the Rhineland in 1935. Winston Churchill knew the cost of waiting, and predicted the inevitable result. The world didn't have the stomach to confront him at the time. We're lucky to have a political leader who had the courage not to repeat one of the great mistakes in history.

    ReplyDelete
  103. warflogger: "Yes, unfortunately this is true. The question is, however, how many would be dead if we hadn't prosecuted this war? Many Iraq war supporters (myself included) believe that this war has prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not millions of deaths, by removing the cancer of Saddam Hussein from power."

    Death rates have gone up in Iraq since we invaded, especially violent death rates. Saddam was doing better than Americans have at keeping people alive. So cite your "saved millions" study or shut up.

    If you want to play counterfactual games about what would have happened if we hadn't invaded, I'll see your cancer of secular dictator Saddam Hussein and raise you one genocide in Darfur. There are 26 million people in Iraq and 6 million in Darfur. 200 to 400 thousand people have died because of the conflict in Darfur. If I may be permitted an unsupportable counterfactual supposition (just like yours that taking out Saddam saved millions, millions!), the Darfur conflict began two months before we invaded Iraq, and if we hadn't been beating the war drum so loudly, maybe we would have heard the screams of a real genocide in progress.

    I call this an unsupportable supposition because we all know that George W. Bush doesn't care about black people.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous6:52 PM

    JaO debunks Bart: If Bush wants to make that claim now, let him tell it to the judge. He will lose.

    Your comment is, of course, entirely accurate. But just FYI, Bart already knows all of that.

    I very seldom dismiss people as "trolls," but that is what Bart is. He purposely misstates judicial opinions and holdings in order to make them Bush-friendly, and he recycles the same, tired legal "arguments" endlessly, no matter how many times he has been set straight -- and that is a helluva lot of times.

    It has been my choice to not engage him further, and others have also gone that route. Bart is not here to seek the legal truth of the NSA matter; his sole purpose is to employ misdirection, distortion, and hand-waving in an effort to justify Bush's criminal behavior. Opting not to enable that seems wise to me, but it is, of course, your choice.

    Some have speculated Bart is a paid Bush operative. I don't know that that need necessarily be the case; the blogosphere does not lack for blinded Bush worshippers who would do as Bart does out of sheer, loving devotion to the Leader. But either way, he is one of the few regulars here who is not engaging in good faith discussion.

    Again, just FYI -- do with it what you will.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous6:54 PM

    Ask the 50,000,000 dead that would have been alive if a certain tyrant had been removed from power when he re-occupied the Rhineland in 1935. Winston Churchill knew the cost of waiting, and predicted the inevitable result. The world didn't have the stomach to confront him at the time. We're lucky to have a political leader who had the courage not to repeat one of the great mistakes in history.

    Ah, so following ten years of sanctions, Sadaam was on the march to take over the world. And how did he plan to get her done. He had no WMD and no air force. Maybe he planned to "hope" a war on the rest of the world.

    ReplyDelete
  106. For a discussion of how many die under US occupation versus Saddam, see this article. It does not even mention the several hundred hundred thousand that died as a result of US-led economic sanctions.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Do you actually believe that such views are held by any more than a tiny fringe at the far left of the political spectrum?

    What do I care? I've never voted for a Dem or a Green, nor do I much care what positions they take.

    Wrong is wrong. You can ignore it or not, or make excuses about what might have happened otherwise. I don't care what you do either.

    But this is wrong. Abu Graib? That's a bad thing to do. Lying about an imminent nuclear attack? That's wrong. Guantanamo? That stuff is immoral.

    And now they want to run the same game with Iran?

    Fool me twice, etc. Tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night.

    But I will tell you: 100,000 dead civilians is a huge screw-up. 100,000 dead civilians who died because the White House lied to the country? No longer a screw-up: murder.

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  108. Anonymous7:03 PM

    Not a single network news organization, nor any major newspaper considers this study authoritative. It is not quoted as fact by any Democrat who opposes our war policy. In fact, the only people who continue to refer to this study are those on far left websites like this, that is, people who reflexively consider those who who don't agree with them stupid.

    Please provide links to support your thesis.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous7:03 PM

    For a discussion of how many die under US occupation versus Saddam, see this article. It does not even mention the several hundred hundred thousand that died as a result of US-led economic sanctions.

    Sorry, but Juan Cole isn't taken seriously by anyone outside of the hard left.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous7:07 PM

    Well at least it looks like the Bush administration is having a really bad day.

    First AP reports that it appears that Carla Martin, the TSA attorney who screwed up the Moussaoi (sp.?) case might have been in cahoots with attorneys for United and American Airlines to help them limit their liability in cases brought by 9/11 families. Firedoglake has more on this.

    Now, the Post reports that a federal appeals court today blocked the EPA from implementing a rule change that would have allowed power plants and factories to modernize without having to upgrade their pollution controls.

    Siding with 15 states, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled that the EPA could not go ahead with a 2003 rule sought by industries, notably power-generating companies.

    The rule change sought by the EPA provided ways for "stationary sources of air pollution," such as power plants, refineries and factories, to avoid triggering a Clean Air Act requirement for new pollution-control equipment if they made "any physical change" that increased emissions.

    Writing for a three-judge panel of the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge Judith W. Rogers said in an opinion that the court was vacating the proposed rule "because it is contrary to the plain language" of the Clean Air Act.


    What a shock. The Bush administration attempting to do something that is contrary to the plain language of the applicable law.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous7:08 PM

    But I will tell you: 100,000 dead civilians is a huge screw-up. 100,000 dead civilians who died because the White House lied to the country? No longer a screw-up: murder.

    The only fellow responsible for murdering 100,000+ Iraqi civilians is now on trial in Baghdad and is quite likely to be hanged for his crimes. Oh, and as the NY Times reported the other day, even Saddam's generals were convinced he possessed WMDs until the very eve of the war. So the "Bush Lied" mantra is simply another in a long series of canards that each day fall by the wayside in the face of cold hard facts.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Sorry, but Juan Cole isn't taken seriously by anyone outside of the hard left.

    I know, who on the Right would want to believe someone who's fluent in Arabic and has studied the history of the region all his life? They might actually begin to have some form of self-realization that goes beyond the Narcissism complex.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous7:09 PM

    "Not a single network news organization, nor any major newspaper considers this study authoritative."

    It's considered correctly done by the only group that matters, the people who are competent to judge. It's not "authoritative", because no single study could possibly be. It's the single best estimate that we have, bar none. That said, the confidence bounds are large. The way this deficiency is remedied is by conducting further studies. Strangely, the Occupiers have had no interest in refining the accurracy of Iraqi mortality estimates. I wonder why?

    If you have any further interest in this topic, you can go look up Tim Lambert's site, where every single concern has been addressed with patient and lucid explanations. If you don't do that, then yes, I am quite sad to inform you that you are as stupid about statistics as bart is about encryption.

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  114. "even Saddam's generals were convinced he possessed WMDs until the very eve of the war."

    ROFLMAO!!!

    Bush supporters: Willing to believe Saddam Hussein's generals, who have every motivation in the world to lie, who executed Hussein's orders to kill 1000s of people, all in order to support gw.

    Wow. gw supporters truly hate America.

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  115. Anonymous7:16 PM

    It's considered correctly done by the only group that matters, the people who are competent to judge.

    I guess that does not include the Washington Post, the NY Times, NBC or CNN, or any of our major politicians. They don't quote the study, despite the fact that Tim Lambert, whoever he is, addresses "every single concern" about the study.

    Why is that, I wonder?

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous7:17 PM

    I am curious about how much time anonymous spent worrying about Saddam Hussein and the poor Iraqis suffering under his regime before George Bush started talking about how dangerous the guy was to America. I mean -- did he/she contribute to Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International? Was he/she lobbying the US government to take steps to overthrow the Iraqi government before this president started talking about mushroom clouds?

    And is he/she currently lobbying for the overthrow of the Iranian, North Korean and Sudanese governments on the same grounds?

    It won't wash -- this president had less than no concern about Iraqi rights. It is an after-the-fact rationalization of a monumental error in foreign policy. Just as the DeWine legislation is attempting an after-the-fact legalization of a criminal act.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous7:26 PM

    I'd like to get something clarified and pinned down here.

    I believe it's Arne Langsetmo who has pointed out in the comments that NOW, under current FISA law, border-crossing communications (into and out of the U.S.) CAN BE LEGALLY MONITORED WITHOUT WARRANT, so long as the "target" of the surveillance is at the non-U.S. end of the communication. It is only when the "target" of surveillance is to be at the U.S. end of the cross-border communication that a FISA Warrant is required for such cross-border communication (or for any internal domestic communications to and from that U.S.-based target) to be legally monitored.

    Is that true?

    Because the new provision in this Nixon Law [Section 2(a)(3)] which purports to "allow" just such cross-border communication monitoring as a result of surveillance of a non-U.S.-based target, seems to indicate that FISA does NOT allow border-crossing communications OF ANY KIND to be monitored, without a FISA Warrant. Or I may be misreading the convoluted language of this patchwork attempt at legislation.

    I think some of the basic facts about the operating provisions of the current FISA law need to be publicized and made known to the country, as well as to our Senators, as part of this vital debate.

    ReplyDelete
  118. I wonder whether Bart and his legal acument is what we can expect from Jerry Falwell Law School graduates?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Hypatia said,

    "He's right, as far as he goes in his explanation. During the Clinton Administration, his legal advisors drafted a cautious memorandum advising that Clinton could and should violate the wall then in place between intelligence communities, if national security required it."

    NO KIDDING, I like how you use the term "violate the wall", as if it's a lesser "crime" than allegedly violating FISA. The translation of course is that Clinton's DOJ gathered domestic intelligence, then "violated the wall" by sharing it between federal law enforcement agencies.

    That's been one of my main points all along, the FISA law does not abridge the inherent authority of the executive in certain circumstances (national security), just like the law establishing "the wall" evidently did not abridge Clinton's inherent authority even though "national security" in the Clinton era was more closely related to domestic law enforcement than terrorists.

    It really is a hoot how you post this observation now as if it's something new. Unbelievable... "that which the President does is legal" Sure, depending on the party you vote for.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous8:16 PM

    JaO writes: In other, more serious forums, that is a big consideration. But frankly, a high percentage of the comments here are just political rah-rah anyway, people making each other feel good in their mutual indignance.

    Well, I do take your point, however the tone and level of gravitas here has fluctuated with its fluid purposes. Certainly in the 6-8 weeks after the NYT exposed the existence of Bush's illegal NSA program, there was not a more sophisticated legal discussion to be found online, altho a few places were nearly its equal (i.e., Balkanization). Just as a pure matter of intellectual pleasure, I was delighted to be parsing, for example, Youngstown vis-a-vis Bush's claims of inherent authority with Glenn and many other lawyers (several of whom also participate at Volokh) and intelligent laypeople.

    But the legal thrashing here has largely been concluded, and the results of all that brainpower wrt the NSA matter can now be found at the "Compendium of NSA Arguments" at Glenn's sidebar. I find it to be an enormously useful linking tool when, as I sometimes do, I argue this issue in other fora.

    Now -- and unlike Volokh -- this site also serves to organize political activism in opposition to Bush's illegal and/or incompetent behavior. That being so, it is populated by partisans, and hence the "political rah-rahing" you note. But even so, just consider (and I'm not implying you don't) the benefit of posts like the one giving rise to this thread. Certainly I appreciate Glenn's analysis of the proposed Terrorist Surveillance Act and its implications, including his linking to Marty Lederman on the issue.

    As to your decision to engage Bart so that no casual observers think his arguments hold merit, I agree that is an important consideration. Myself, I've pondered whether I ought to repeatedly reply to him with nothing more than a link to the Compendium at the sidebar, which would have the benefit of also directing all others to it. Because every disingenuous keystroke he makes has already been dealt with x10, as that Compendium shows.

    But people differ in how to deal w/ Bart. While it is perhaps juvenile, I confess to being amused at the commenter who often responds to him with 12 paragraphs "quoting" Bart in inscrutable Latin, followed by three paragraphs of "meows."

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:30 PM

    The Fly spews: That's been one of my main points all along, the FISA law does not abridge the inherent authority of the executive in certain circumstances (national security), just like the law establishing "the wall" evidently did not abridge Clinton's inherent authority even though "national security" in the Clinton era was more closely related to domestic law enforcement than terrorists.

    You left out all of my discussion about how Clinton's legal advisors made it abundantly clear that 99.99% of the time, Clinton must obey the laws on the books, including "the wall," which most definitely did "abridge" his inherent authority. He could make exceptions only in rare, isolated emergencies.

    In contrast, Bush is violating the law 100% of the time, and on an ongoing, institutionalized basis. By any intelligent reading of Jackson's opinion in Youngstown, Bush is committing indefensible criminal acts.

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  122. Anonymous8:36 PM

    I think it will be possible, by close reading of this proposed Enabling Act legislation, to discern the broad operational outlines of the secret NSA program (at least as these four Senators know it to be).

    It does seem that the Four Executive Enablers are attempting to transition us from FISA's supervision of the "identified target"-based surveillance world, to a world of massive, generic data mining on the order of looking for a terrorist needle in a haystack made up of (at least in part) the computerized personal records and details of American citizens. [See the language of Section 2(a)(2) for example.]

    So now surveillance "targets" are no longer identified people or specific brick and mortar locations in the world, but rather the "communications" themselves. It appears that Bush and Enablers want to monitor data streams, and databases, not actual specific targets (until they find them with some sort of software filtering or who knows what), and there ain't no way to fit that into FISA, period.

    With regard to the Fourth Amendment to our Constitution, as far as I'm concerned UNTIL the Supreme Court "opens the door" to ignoring the Amendment's PLAIN language, the door is CLOSED to ANYONE pretending that the Fourth Amendment does not forbid government-sanctioned warrantless domestic spying in aid of international terrorism prevention or prosecution. In other words, the Constitution's Fourth Amendment flatly requires a Judicial Branch WARRANT to invade the privacy of Americans, and no one in the Legislative or Executive Branches gets to say otherwise, unless and until the Judicial Branch rules otherwise. Period.

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  123. Anonymous8:46 PM

    midnight ride: With regard to the Fourth Amendment to our Constitution, as far as I'm concerned UNTIL the Supreme Court "opens the door" to ignoring the Amendment's PLAIN language, the door is CLOSED to ANYONE pretending that the Fourth Amendment does not forbid government-sanctioned warrantless domestic spying in aid of international terrorism prevention or prosecution. In other words, the Constitution's Fourth Amendment flatly requires a Judicial Branch WARRANT to invade the privacy of Americans, and no one in the Legislative or Executive Branches gets to say otherwise, unless and until the Judicial Branch rules otherwise. Period.

    Yup.

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  124. hypatia said...

    JaO debunks Bart: If Bush wants to make that claim now, let him tell it to the judge. He will lose.

    Your comment is, of course, entirely accurate. But just FYI, Bart already knows all of that.


    THAT is debunking? Someone tell Justice.

    Instead of wasting several dozen hours finding actual legal precedent and drafting a 40+ page point by point legal argument establishing the President's authority to direct the NSA Program, apparently all Justice needed to do was post: "Tell it to the judge."

    Who could possibly argue with that?

    I very seldom dismiss people as "trolls," but that is what Bart is. He purposely misstates judicial opinions and holdings in order to make them Bush-friendly...

    Feel free to point out where I misrepresented anything or retract your accusation as a lie.

    ...and he recycles the same, tired legal "arguments" endlessly, no matter how many times he has been set straight -- and that is a helluva lot of times.

    Posting "Tell it to the judge" is not "being set straight" in a legal argument.

    It has been my choice to not engage him further, and others have also gone that route.

    What do you call this post? Sounds like you are fixated with me personally and not with the legal issues at hand.

    ReplyDelete
  125. JaO said...

    I know what you mean about bart. Although I have not posted here until recently, I have read his misstatements of law over time.


    Just like Hypathia, I notice that you do not provide a single example of my "misstatements" or contrary authority to support your side of an argument.

    What a surprise.

    Sometimes, I just ignore it all.

    You mean that you have no contrary legal authority to respond.

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  126. Anonymous9:02 PM

    jao,

    You have several extremely obvious flaws in your arguments:

    First, you make the claim that Bush is afraid to take it to court.
    That is loser whining. Bush believes he has inherent power and it is up to you to prove it otherwise. Congress didn't go to the Supreme Court before they passed FISA, the executive branch wouldn't go to the Supreme Court when they use inherent powers.It is an inherently stupid argument.

    Second, you keep claiming that all the laws on inherent power existed pre-FISA, conveniently and consistantly ignoring the FISA Court of Review which said it assumes Bush has inherent power and found FISA constitutional in part because it assumed it could not encroach on this power.

    Third, you like the phrased "deferred" power and keep claiming Hamdi and Youngstown eliminated all inherent power. Again, this is just ignorant. The executive branch's inherent power may be at its weakest against legislation by Congress, but it does not go to zero. Why do you continually claim it does?

    The FISA Court of Review gave an inkling to how this case would shake out. Bush obviously has inherent power and would use FISA in most cases but would not have to if it encroached on his inherent powers.

    Your bias to the left is standing squarely in front of your ability to rationalize.

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  127. Anonymous9:14 PM

    Anon spits out what we here have all heard a million times before: The FISA Court of Review gave an inkling to how this case would shake out. Bush obviously has inherent power and would use FISA in most cases but would not have to if it encroached on his inherent powers.

    Go to the Compendium of NSA Arguments at this site. Do also read the comments in the 5-6 entries about Article II inherent authority.

    Internalize same.

    Thank you.

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  128. Anonymous9:29 PM

    JaO sings my song:As a self-identified judicial conservative and believer in the rule of law, my primary objective is to resist what I consider to be a dangerous doctrine of executive power. That is not necessarily the same objective as maximizing the electoral prospects of Democrats.

    I was a member of The Federalist Society in law school. The libertarian wing.

    I advocate electing Democrats solely because of my strong opinion that the Bush/Frist, populist, decidedly anti-federalism GOP, must be stopped. We need some gridlock, and so I'd like to see an end to the populist GOP controlling all branches of govt.

    BTW, I do agree that Orin Kerr (no leftist, he) is excellent on the issue of the NSA illegalities. He has been discussed and linked to here several times.

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  129. "99.99% of the time, Clinton must obey the laws on the books" - "He could make exceptions only in rare, isolated emergencies."

    Sure, like Clinton's rare, isolated emergency in Waco Texas that killed 76 people, and the "investigation" that followed for example:

    Clinton's Attorney General approved the CS military gas attack that led to the deaths of 76 men, women and children who had never been charged with any crime. An aerial video tape shows an armored military vehicle destroying a Davidian building while people were still inside. Autopsy reports indicate that six bodies found in the rubble of that building were crushed to death.

    You read that correctly. According to the Washington Post, in 1993 76 men, women and children died during a U.S. government assault on private property using military gas and Bradley fighting vehicles. Of course Janet Reno, investigating herself, found no violation of the Posse Comitatus act which expressly prohibits the use of military equipment and personnel to enforce laws against American citizens unless authorized by the U.S. Constitution or act of Congress.

    Sorry, but if you think electronic surveillance for national security purposes is more of a "crime" than using military gas and armored vehicles on our own people, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

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  130. Anonymous9:51 PM

    The Fly spews more irrelevancies:Sorry, but if you think electronic surveillance for national security purposes is more of a "crime" than using military gas and armored vehicles on our own people, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

    I'm on record here and elsewhere as denouncing Clinton's excesses, including those at Waco. But those have nothing to do with the current crisis of FISA violations and Yoo theories of unbridled Executive power under Bush.

    Do try to stay on point.

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  131. Anonymous10:06 PM

    This stuff takes a long time to absorb. The trolls are actually invaluable to us. It's not comfortable to know what we now know. It's easier to watch Faux News and listen to Rush and Hannity. Pull the covers over our heads and burrow down in fear then wave the "bloody shirt" of patriotism is much, much easier.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous10:14 PM

    A Wolf in Fox's Clothing? How sneaky can you get......

    Who were those guys? Agents posed as journalists before visit.

    There was a whirlwind of activity in the days prior to President Bush's arrival at a home on the beach in Gautier last week, with government officials and Secret Service scouting a location and checking the neighborhood where Bush would stop.
    The reason for all the fuss was kept a secret even from the family that received Bush. They didn't know it was prelude to a presidential visit until the day Bush arrived.
    But one part of the preparation for the President's arrival involved two government agents posing as journalists.
    Akins, who received Bush, mentioned that on the Friday before Bush arrived, two men approached him identifying themselves as members of the media.
    He said the men told him they were with Fox News out of Houston, Texas, and were on a "scouting mission" for a story on new construction. They took pictures inside Akins' house, which is under construction and looked up and down the road in the neighborhood.....

    But after the president left Akins' home, the two men again approached Akins and let him know they were not media after all, but were with the governmental entourage....
    Akins assumed they were Secret Service agents.
    But a spokesman for Secret Service, under Homeland Security, said posing as a journalist is not something the agents typically do. He did suggest they might have been with the White House staff or a branch of the military, based on the description of the pins.
    Fox News had no comment....
    But Aly Colon, who deals with issues of ethics for the Poynter Institute, a school for journalists in St. Petersburg, Fla., said such a scenario undermines the public's trust of the media.

    He said such misrepresentations might feed any perception among the public that some news organizations lie about their political ideologies or associations with businesses....

    Akins said he saw no problem with what happened and the government agents laughed about their fooling him.


    Ho ho ho.

    Also, did anyone see Larry Wilkerson (Colin Powell's chief of staff at the time of the Iraqi invasion)on CNN today? He made some very interesting observations and statements.

    He said there was "no question" that the Bush Administration "lied "to the American public and "deliberately" misled them about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

    He blamed Cheney the most. He said Iraqis were worse off now, and the biggest gainer was Iran, whose bitter enemy was Saddam Hussein and who was at war with the Taliban and is now sitting in the "catbird seat" because they control southern Iraq and the top guy who was elected is loyal to Iran.

    Also, did anyone hear Scalia's recent remarks? He said "Joe Six Pack" was in a far better position to decide the morality of issues like abortion than judges are, and should express their views by passing legislation concerning those issues.

    Does Joe Six Pack know more about the Constitution and Constitutional interpretation than the SC Justices?

    His comments strike me as irresponsible. Whether laws are constitutional or not is something that must be decided by the courts.

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  133. Anonymous10:18 PM

    JaO tells it right again:I also am a judicial conservative who enthusiastically supported the nominations of John Roberts and Samuel Alito. I have every confidence that both these jurists share my interpretation of Youngstown, which is mainstream jurisprudence largely unrelated to "left" or "right."

    There are not many others here who supported the Alito nomination, but I very strongly did. More so than that of Roberts.

    As you indicate, Bush would lose if his NSA illegalities come before a High Court with Alito on it. I believe by 9-0. Youngstown dictates that result.

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  134. Anonymous10:30 PM

    Constitutional Law Professor Jonathan Turley on Olberman saying there is a lot of pent-up frustration that the legislative branch is encroaching on the rights of the judiciary.

    (Scalia apparently disagrees.)

    Olberman mentioned an article about to come out in US World and News Report stating that "lawyers in the White house argued that the same justification that allowed them to conduct electronic surveillance without warrants after 9/11 would allow them to conduct physical searches of suspects'(and their lawyers)houses without warrents." Turley said that would effectively remove the Fourth Amendment from the Constitution. "If we start to take whole amendments out of the Consitution because of the war on terrorism"....well, watch out, he said.

    This upcoming story in US World and News Report sounds like it will be explosive.

    Also, wouldn't it seem that Karl Rove must have something really, really terrible on DeWine, or why else would anyone do what he is now doing?

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  135. Michael Birk,

    Clinton didn't need to "grab power" to decide on the Waco strategy. My overall point is that in addition to abusing power in other areas, Clinton appears to have been just as active in "domestic spying" as Nixon was if not more so, and probably much more so than President Bush is now.

    Read my posts on Clinton era surveillance here on Echelon that according to "60 Minutes" monitored ATM transactions and even tape recorded telephone conversations of the late Sen. Strom Thurmond, and here on the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act that required domestic telephone companies to install permanent wiretap ports into major communications hubs for the first time in U.S. history, if you are interested in comparing prior "warrant less domestic spying scandals" to the present day non-scandal.

    Hypatia,

    You let the Clinton cat out of the bag by comparing his administrations views on inherent power to those of Nixon. You should read my Clinton era posts (links above), and internalize same.

    Thank you.

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  136. Anonymous11:08 PM

    The Fly writes:You let the Clinton cat out of the bag by comparing his administrations views on inherent power to those of Nixon. You should read my Clinton era posts (links above), and internalize same.

    And your response to the Article II, inherent authority parsings of Bush's illegalites, found at the Compendium at this site's sidebar, would be what again?

    ReplyDelete
  137. It's quite simple actually. Regardless of what Tom Daschle claims, Congress acted outside it's constitutional authority to the extent that FISA abridges the President's inherent powers. Next question?

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous11:45 PM

    The FLY said...

    "It's quite simple actually. Regardless of what Tom Daschle claims, Congress acted outside it's constitutional authority to the extent that FISA abridges the President's inherent powers. Next question?"

    And mabe you could highlight for us exactly what those powers are that Congress has abridged.

    I can find nowhere in the constitution where it grants the President the authority to violate the fourth amendment or his oath of office; which states in part that he will to the best of his ability uphold and defend the constitution.

    ReplyDelete
  139. JaO said...

    bart to Jao Just like Hypathia, I notice that you do not provide a single example of my "misstatements" or contrary authority to support your side of an argument.

    It is difficult to prove a negative...


    What negative? You have essentially accused me of lying about the law.

    Repost the statement in which you claimed I lied about the law. Then post what you claim to be the truth.

    OR admit and retract the slander.

    but I will resort to quoting the admissions of Atty. Gen. Gonzales from the Feb. 6 hearing on the subject you and I were discussing

    Don't attribute Gonzales political statements to a bunch of politicians to me.

    So, bart, if your research has found some caselaw that the DOJ's research has not, I would be interested to read it.

    Nothing in Mr. Gonzales's statements conflicts with the law which I have posted here.

    And, partisan troll, thank you again for giving me that chance to say, Mister President, tell it to the judge.

    I'll take your inability to cite a single post where I "misrepresented" the law as an admission of your slander.

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  140. Anonymous11:57 PM

    The Fly said:

    "You read that correctly. According to the Washington Post, in 1993 76 men, women and children died during a U.S. government assault on private property using military gas and Bradley fighting vehicles. Of course Janet Reno, investigating herself, found no violation of the Posse Comitatus act which expressly prohibits the use of military equipment and personnel to enforce laws against American citizens unless authorized by the U.S. Constitution or act of Congress."

    And in 1994 the Republicans swept the elections taking both the House and Senate if I remember correctly. And yet somehow the Republican majority didn't deem the incident important enough to censure or impeach the President or to take any action against Janet Reno.

    Nope they waited till they could get Clinton for lying about getting an extra-marital bj in the oval office. Now what's wrong with this picture?

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous12:22 AM

    I am increasingly in awe of hypatia, not just her legal acumen and reasoning ability, but also her wisdom about things in general and her temperate disposition, as well as her world class command of language.

    Also, I didn't realize the "meow
    meow" posts were quoting Bart in Latin. Now that I know that, although it may be childish, I do find that hilarious. The time may come soon when there's little left to laugh about, so humor these days is especially precious.

    I disagree, however, with two statements:

    (A quibble: Orin Kerr's posts at Volokh have been my own personal favorite place in the blogosphere for the serious legal dimension of the debate.

    I read every word of those posts and appreciated those times when Orin made innovative observations and introduced sophisticated legal analysis of various developments, but there was a lot wrong with Orin's posts in my mind, although not from a legal point of view. However, I won't go into that because my view of Orin Kerr's status and worth in the blogosphere is irrelevant.

    I do think the role Glenn is playing, not just as a brilliant lawyer, but as a focal point for informed discussion and an advocate for effective opposition to government illegality, is unique in the blogosphere (and otherwise) and is completely vital.

    I noticed that Orin has apparently left VC and started his own legal blog. I can guess at some of the reasons, and I anticipated that might happen.

    I know Just an Observer (that's you right jao?) and Hypatia supported the Alito nomination and I am aware of their reasons for so doing.

    I personally was vehemently against it and that passion was what brought me into the blogosphere. I hope I am wrong, but I predict that jao and hypatia will come to regret his confirmation.

    I personally thought, and still do, that Janice Rogers Brown was the best person in America to be on the SC, and I now see why she will never be nominated if Bush, Frist, or any other person with a tolerance for fascism and a contempt for the Constitution is President.

    I sincerely believe if Feingold gets to be President, she will be nominated as she is the best person for the job, but I don't see any other potential Presidential candidate choosing her.

    I also supported Roberts and have very, very high hopes for him, but am not absolutely sure those will prove valid.

    The only question in my mind is how much even a heroic SC will be able to stop or reverse this fascist juggernaut if there is no remedy to be found until 2008.

    Finally, I just saw a frightening interview with Heather Wilson on Channel 13. She said it "makes no sense" to her and is a big "puzzle" why she, Chair of the Committee which oversees NSA and a person who has had security clearance for all but three years since she was 17, and is known to be trustworthy, was stonewalled so completely when she attempted to get information about the secret NSA program.

    A female attorney who was Goldwater's lawyer responded to those Wilson statements by saying that she was stonewalled because there was no reason to include her in the loop, that the Gang of Eight were the only individuals who lawfully had to be informed of the details.

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  142. Anonymous12:33 AM

    jao,

    Could you explain why the dicta in re: sealed case completely conflicts with your 9-0 prediction if the case went to the Supremes?

    It was FISA Court judges that wrote it.

    What do you know that a FISA Court judge wouldn't?

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  143. Anonymous12:41 AM

    I just followed the link to Balkinization and boy, was I happy to see the first two sentences:


    It's here. Glenn Greenwald has the goods. I don't have much to add to his thorough summary.


    Marty Lederman is one of those Democrats (ugg) like Feingold who is a personal hero of mine. When he used to post comments on VC, those were my happiest moments over there.

    I don't think anyone could ever really "have the goods" on something unless in addition to their astute legal analysis of a legal issue, they then direct their focus to the broad practical implications of that legal issue, and they are passionate about the outcome.

    That's what's so great about Glenn, and in his own way, Marty.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous12:48 AM

    Okay, having watched the recent exchanges here, I think we can all agree that no-one here is actually going to *change* anyone's mind.

    Our resident contrarians are as committed to their viewpoint as anyone else, and they're welcome to them. We actually loose nothing by engaging them, clearly demarking the limits and boundaries of their ideas even as our own are challenged.

    In a way, their continued insistence to their views in the face of continued challenges and facts to the contrary is admirable. Given the contemptable displays in Congress and amongst our elected officials of late, its reassuring to know there are those who have the courage of their convictions.

    Then again, look at the sort of 'convictions' we are talking about.

    That said, let's also not fool ourselves that there's oging to be many (if any) points of agreement between us all. The libertarians and classic conservatives, however honest and earnest in their ideals, don't have any voice in the Republican Party any more, and its hard to see them agreeing with the more activist and positive role for government the Democrats hold.

    Indeed, the very concept of 'bipartisanship' has become rather a sick joke these days. The Republicans dominate all branches of government, so they can do whatever they want. And they have.

    Its their mess. We, all of us, just have to live in it.

    Let's see how our contrarians keep their ideals as our economy, our military, and our nation's standing collapses out under the weight of the mistakes and mis-steps of the President they so earnestly admire.

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  145. Anonymous1:13 AM

    Enough Of The D.C. Dems
    By Molly Ivins

    Mah fellow progressives, now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of the party. I don't know about you, but I have had it with the D.C. Democrats, had it with the DLC Democrats, had it with every calculating, equivocating, triangulating, straddling, hair-splitting son of a bitch up there, and that includes Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    I will not be supporting Senator Clinton because: a) she has no clear stand on the war and b) Terri Schiavo and flag-burning are not issues where you reach out to the other side and try to split the difference....

    I can't see a damn soul in D.C. except Russ Feingold who is even worth considering for President. The rest of them seem to me so poisonously in hock to this system of legalized bribery they can't even see straight.

    What happens now is not up to the has-beens in Washington who run this party. It is up to us. So let's get off our butts and start building a progressive movement that can block the nomination of Hillary Clinton or any other candidate who supposedly has "all the money sewed up."

    I am tired of having the party nomination decided before the first primary vote is cast, tired of having the party beholden to the same old Establishment money.

    We can raise our own money on the Internet, and we know it. Howard Dean raised $42 million, largely on the web, with a late start when he was running for President, and that ain't chicken feed. If we double it, it gives us the lock on the nomination. So let's go find a good candidate early and organize the shit out of our side.
    (c) 2006 Molly Ivins


    I am not a Democrat, but I completely agree with Molly that Feingold is the man. The only man as a matter of fact.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous1:13 AM

    Eyes wide open says:

    Constitutional Law Professor Jonathan Turley on Olberman saying there is a lot of pent-up frustration that the legislative branch is encroaching on the rights of the judiciary.

    --

    I wish I would have seen this. Years ago I heard Turley argue vehemently that FISA violated the 4th amendment and was unconstitutional. I don't see how he can know claim the executive branch is encroaching on the rights of the judiciary when he argued that the judiciary would be enforcing an unconstitutional law.

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  147. Yankeependragon said:

    "Let's see how our contrarians keep their ideals as our economy, our military, and our nation's standing collapses out under the weight of the mistakes and mis-steps of the President they so earnestly admire."

    I'd rather not just sit around and wait for all that...
    If someone is beating me in the side of the head, I'm not just going to sit there and wait for the inevitable brain damage, I might use harsh language or wirite a nasty note or get up and stomp a lung out of them.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous2:06 AM

    The "War on Terrorism", this "war" we had to give up the Fourth Amendment for, seems to have as much to do with $$$$ (and as little to do with national security) as your average IPO.

    From the Horror File:

    Lawyers for two airlines being sued by 9/11 victims prompted a federal attorney to coach witnesses in the Zacarias Moussaoui death penalty trial so the government’s case against the al-Qaida conspirator would not undercut their defense, victims’ lawyers allege.

    A United Airlines lawyer received a transcript of the first day of the Moussaoui trial from an American Airlines lawyer and forwarded it to Carla J. Martin, a Transportation Security Administration lawyer, the victims’ lawyers, Robert Clifford and Gregory Joseph, claim.

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  149. Anonymous2:11 AM

    jao wrote: In doing so, they actually place a higher priority on avoiding judicial review than in prosecuting the war on terror, because failing to settle the legal precedent forces the DOJ to hold off on warrants to surveil or arrest suspected terrorists who may be among us.

    Im not sure about that - why cant they get warrants to surveil terrorists within 72 hrs after they start the surveillance and follow the law. It has never been explained to my satisfaction why this is overburdensome. To say that the DOJ's hands are tied when it comes to spying on *terrorists* undercuts the contention that the program is BOTH unnecessary AND illegal.

    If the bar is set so low for what constitutes "necessary" as to enable the government effectively to spy on political enemies without restriction, then Houston, we have a problem.

    And that is exactly what the B admin is trying to pull off here - as in everything else, they seek to lower the bar. If they can get the public to believe the program is necessary, even if illegal, the DeWine legislation skates through.

    But the program is clearly unnecessary. And it sure as Sherlock helps the government monitor its political opponents, which by numerous uncontradicted accounts it has done plenty of in many different settings.

    The new power to surveil political opponents, as a sidenote, could reside in a Hilary Clinton administration some day.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous2:13 AM

    NOT from the Horror File:

    “Q: Why is the DLC dominating?
    Feingold: I think it’s because the Democratic Party decided that corporatizing was a way to help with fundraising, especially in an era of soft money. It allowed the Democratic Party, in their view, to blunt some of the issues, like trade, that were causing problems with, frankly, the larger moneyed interests. And the ultimate example of that was the coronation of Gore in Los Angeles. That convention was a corporate trade show. It was nothing like the Democratic conventions of the past. So I see the DLC as, to some extent, taking the soul away from the Democratic Party. And I see the DLC as having sold American workers down the river. I oppose GATT, and NAFTA, and all the things Clinton and Gore were for. When we lose our commitment to opposing something as manifestly wrong as the death penalty, I’m very uncomfortable with that.”


    BTW, have you checked out Feingold's educational credentials? They are incredibly impressive.

    Since we're headed for a fascist dictatorship and Monarchy anyway, I would go along with having an I.Q. test mandatory for Presidential candidates and all Senators and Congressmen. And Attorney Generals.

    Nobody with an I.Q. under 140 need apply.

    These dummies are killing us.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous3:34 AM

    Oh no! I decided to tear myself away from Glenn's site after ten hours here (and surfing the Internet) to see if there was life outside the Internet and I wish I hadn't. Did anyone see the article on the front page of Friday's NY Times? "Police Memos say Arrest Tactics Calmed Protest"?

    "Calmed protest"? These were peaceful anti-war protesters. There was nothing to "calm."

    "The reports also made clear what the police have yet to discuss publicly: that the department uses undercover officers to infiltrate political gatherings and monitor behavior."

    Here's another quote:

    Under the heading of recommendations, the draft suggested "Utilize undercover officers to distibute misinformation within the crowds."

    I can't go on. This is too upsetting. I've known for a long time that the "violent" animal activists you read about in news reports who commit those "acts" that the New York Post and Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity cover with such relish are not "animal activists" at all, but rather government plants (notice, nobody ever really gets hurt) who are utilized to "disinform" the public at large about the true, peaceful tactics of animal welfare activists and protect the financial interests of all those huge, immoral food companies, drug companies, and bogus "research grants" recipients which are such deep pocketed and "generous" supporters of both the Republican and Democratic parties.

    But apparently that's just one group they try to "manipulate" and spread disinformation to and about.

    Can you imagine what life would be like if Rudy Guiliani, the person I consider to be the most likely Republican Presidential Candidate in 2008, took office with the DeWine proposal having passed and the concept of an Imperial, (soft "fascist") Presidency and Government firmly in place?

    Yes, he's competent. He did a spectacular job as Mayor of New York. But he has a "police", authoritarian mentality which might not have been that dangerous many years ago when the Rule of Law reigned and there were legitimate checks and balances in government, but which, under present conditions, would be deadly.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous3:58 AM

    Squinting A Bit said:

    Since we're headed for a fascist dictatorship and Monarchy anyway, I would go along with having an I.Q. test mandatory for Presidential candidates and all Senators and Congressmen. And Attorney Generals.

    Nobody with an I.Q. under 140 need apply.

    These dummies are killing us.


    Your brave thoughts will usher in a welcome new world.

    I would like to expand your mandatory list to include:

    Doctors/Lawyers
    Nuclear Technicians
    Judges
    Citizens
    Babies (will require some advances in DNA technology)

    ReplyDelete
  153. "working in support" of a terrorist organization.

    According to Hannity, Limbaugh etc, ALL liberals do this.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous6:48 AM

    At the risk of further digressing from the thread subject, I can't understand why Bush loyalists in general and resident trolls in particular have made it perfectly clear they want to surrender their constitutional rights to some degree when such action (indirectly) caters to the terrorists who would deny us our rights and freedoms because they allegedly "hate" them. I never knew appeasement to sworn enemies was somehow defensible. Wait a second - surrendering with minimal resistance, appeasing a sworn enemy - why is that so familiar? Of course! The "French"! What's that Monsieur bart?

    And just so I can throw a second traditionally conservative jingoistic taunt back in there faces, here's what I have to say to all of Bush's minions:

    So you don't like American Constitutional rights as they stand? You think America is somehow too free for its own good? Then LEAVE! ...and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

    Ahhh... that felt pretty nice in a "good for the gander" kinda way.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Michael Birk,

    "The implication in your statement above is that Clinton abused his power in this and "other areas." Yet your overall position, that Bush is not abusing his power, is clear.

    Since that is an obviously hypocritical stance, I must assume that you meant to imply that Clinton did not abuse his power in this regard. In that case, I respectfully disagree."

    I meant what I wrote there as it reads. Clinton probably "spied" more than Nixon, and probably more than Bush is now in the present day.

    As Hypatia aptly pointed out there are degrees of legality when it comes to domestic surveillance, and most Presidents seem to have engaged in some "spying" that may be viewed as "illegal" to some degree.

    Hypatia tells us "99.99% of the time, Clinton must obey the laws on the books" and puts the Clinton law breaking quotient at one tenth of one percent (0.01%) v. Bush "Bush is violating the law 100% of the time" with his law breaking quotient pegged at the full one hundred percent (100%).

    While that may be a ridiculous exaggeration, Hypatia does confirm for us that some "law breaking" did occur during the Clinton administration under color of inherent authority.

    Obviously I don't agree with the numbers, but I think it would be fair to say that Clinton is the first president to authorize modern "data mining" domestically using supercomputers [Echelon] to sift through millions of phone conversations in real time.

    In 1995, the FBI disclosed plans to require the phone companies to build into their infrastructure the capacity to simultaneously wiretap 1 percent of all phone calls in all major U.S. cities, a plan that was defeated in Congress.

    Transcripts of the 2000 "60 Minutes" program on Echelon appear to include allegations that Echelon facilities overseas [England] were used to monitor domestic U.S. communications, thus circumventing warrants:

    "One Echelon operator working in Britain told "60 Minutes" that the NSA had even monitored and tape recorded the conversations of the late Sen. Strom Thurmond."

    Read more, [links upthread]

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  156. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  157. JaO said...

    bart to JaO: I'll take your inability to cite a single post where I "misrepresented" the law as an admission of your slander.

    No problem, pal.

    bart 6 hours earlier: The courts have not required that the President obtain a warrant under the 4th Amendment for any foreign intelligence gathering which is ratified by this bill. Rather, the courts have held that Article II provided this power to the President all along.

    When challenged, did you present even a single citation dealing with a set of facts occurring since FISA was enacted 28 years ago, where any court has held that the President's Article II powers trumped the statute?


    Try reading my statement for content this time.

    The courts have universally held that Article II of the Constitution grants the President the power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the Unites States. These same courts of appeal have held that the 4th Amendment does not require the president to get warrants for this type of intelligence gathering. See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974).

    My statement did not address FISA at all. Rather, you have created a straw man which does not exist in my statement.

    As for your straw man, you have not offered a single court case which holds that Congress has an Article I power which permits it to limit or eliminate the recognized presidential Article II power to conduct this intelligence gathering. Indeed, the only court opinion to consider this issue stated in dicta that the prior court holdings control over FISA. In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).

    I won't hold my breath waiting for you to retract your slander that I misrepresented the law. Rather, you have plainly demonstrated that your purpose is to intentionally misrepresent my arguments because you are incapable of rebutting them with actual legal authority.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous1:48 PM

    " I can't understand why Bush loyalists in general and resident trolls in particular have made it perfectly clear they want to surrender their constitutional rights to some degree when such action (indirectly) caters to the terrorists who would deny us our rights and freedoms because they allegedly "hate" them. I never knew appeasement to sworn enemies was somehow defensible. Wait a second - surrendering with minimal resistance, appeasing a sworn enemy - why is that so familiar? Of course! The "French"! What's that Monsieur bart?"

    I'm not Bart but the answer is simple. We don't want what Europe has. Multiculturialism is destroying their societies and radical islam is becoming unstoppable. Watch how they manipulate the European Union laws and how how they are destroying freedom of speech in Denmark and other countries. You seem to think it is appeasement to give up some freedoms when it is the smartest thing we can do. We actually fear your way of thinking more than we fear giving up a little freedom. Because your way of thinking leads to what Europe is going through, which is an infection right now with no cure.

    ReplyDelete
  159. "We don't want what Europe has"

    Right on! America is still unique because U.S. presidents like Jefferson, Reagan and Bush have not hesitated to take action to eliminate threats posed by madmen rather than trying to "appease" them.

    It's interesting to note that after the riots in France, former "Axis of Weasels" Chairman Jacques Chirac finally grew a pair and decided to join the overwhelming military response to terror club by threatening to respond to terror attacks with nuclear weapons.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous3:36 PM

    The Fly continues to misrepresent both my comments and the law:As Hypatia aptly pointed out there are degrees of legality when it comes to domestic surveillance, and most Presidents seem to have engaged in some "spying" that may be viewed as "illegal" to some degree.

    Hypatia tells us "99.99% of the time, Clinton must obey the laws on the books" and puts the Clinton law breaking quotient at one tenth of one percent (0.01%) v. Bush "Bush is violating the law 100% of the time" with his law breaking quotient pegged at the full one hundred percent (100%).

    While that may be a ridiculous exaggeration, Hypatia does confirm for us that some "law breaking" did occur during the Clinton administration under color of inherent authority.


    First, my comments had nothing to do with domestic surveillance or "illegal" spying. What I observed, is that when it was the case that FISA erected a wall between intelligence agencies such that they could not share data, Clinton Admin lawyers drafted an extremely cautious memorandum stating what is true as per Youngstwon, namely, that Jackson's Opinion left a very narrow window in which the Executive's authority could legally trump a law of Congress.

    Jackson cited insurrection or rebellion as constituting exigent circumstances when national security took the President out from congressional law. Otherwise -- and Jackson was emphatic about this -- if the U.S. is not to take a step toward dictatorship, and is to operate under the rule of law, then in almost all circumstances the president's inherent authority must give way to Congress.

    As far as is known, Clinton obeyed FISA's surveillance provisions and all other law pertaining to surveillance of U.S. persons. His legal advisors merely felt that in the case of foreign intelligence gathering, if it were learned that a domestic plot existed to, say, spread small pox, then in that very narrow circumstance Clinton could breach the wall then in place. But these same advisors firmly said that this must be an extremely rare event, and could not become standard, institutionalized procedure.

    Bush has been violating FISA for four years on a routine basis. He says he will continue to do that. There is no way such institutionalized violation of federal statute satisfies the rule of law, and per Jackson's analysis, Bush is in criminal violation of the law.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Hypatia said,

    "in almost all circumstances the president's inherent authority must give way to Congress"

    Right, I think got it. Although sharing intelligence between federal agencies is a violation of FISA, Clinton being a Democrat is entitled to a 0.01% inherent authority window to "breach the wall". On the other hand Bush being a Republican, gets a 0.00% inherent authority window to authorize terrorist surveillance so he "violated the law".

    Considering the fact that Congress was briefed on this program a number of times since October of 2001 if not before, if the statement "Bush has been violating FISA for four years on a routine basis" is in fact true, then why didn't Congress investigate at some point before the NY Times published details of the program?

    "As far as is known, Clinton obeyed FISA's surveillance provisions and all other law pertaining to surveillance of U.S. persons. His legal advisors merely felt that in the case of foreign intelligence gathering, if it were learned that a domestic plot existed to, say, spread small pox, then in that very narrow circumstance Clinton could breach the wall then in place"

    OK, fine. How might Janet Reno gain information about the "small pox" scenario without first having evidence in hand to support a FISA warrant for electronic surveillance? Random door to door questioning?

    Sure, and how do you support the rest of that nifty set of hypothetical conclusions?

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous5:25 PM

    The Bill of Rights as written by our founding farthers over 200 hundred years ago gave us toomany rights? How does fighting for the most defining american rights lead to the problems that the Europeans are having? Please relocate to a another country because you haven't a clue about this one.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous7:11 PM

    "I meant what I wrote there as it reads. Clinton probably "spied" more than Nixon, and probably more than Bush is now in the present day.

    As Hypatia aptly pointed out there are degrees of legality when it comes to domestic surveillance, and most Presidents seem to have engaged in some "spying" that may be viewed as "illegal" to some degree."

    So you really believe that anybody here wouldn't want Clinton to be investigated for wrongdoing? The illegality of events such as Waco or programs such as Echelon were never questioned by us, and in fact the ones to whitewash these issues were the Republican Congress that did nothing about it (not that I expect too much more from Democrats). The issues were not challenged because they played directly into their agenda, the same agenda that is being pushed now.

    Also, your conjecture about the amount of spying under Clinton vs. Nixon is completely baseless. Saying "probably" doesn't make it any more true, nor does "most" make your other conjecture (and convenient ignorance of FISA's significance) any more true.

    "Considering the fact that Congress was briefed on this program a number of times since October of 2001 if not before, if the statement "Bush has been violating FISA for four years on a routine basis" is in fact true, then why didn't Congress investigate at some point before the NY Times published details of the program?"

    That's a very good question, one that many of us are asking as well. But we already know the answer. Oh, and you don't have to ask if that statement is in fact true, of course it is. Even if they pass a bill to retroactively legalize the Govt's actions, it changes nothing. That's not even how our law system works anyway, at least not how I was taught about it.

    The debate over this issue is much more about what to do in response to the law-breaking because Bush himself has admitted to breaking the law, but people like you want to drag it back to that question of legality again and again because you know it is already resolved and want the debate to go no further.

    "I'm not Bart but the answer is simple. We don't want what Europe has. Multiculturialism is destroying their societies and radical islam is becoming unstoppable."
    Have you taken public elementary school Social Studies classes yet? And who is we?

    I don't know if you are the same anonymous person that was posting earlier in the thread, but I must say you are the perfect example of a creepy religious-right follower.

    Am I the only one to notice that these kool-aid drinkers, as you guys like to call them, have a very strange way of writing a lot of times? They seem to use big words in an attempt to boost how others view their intelligence, but it falls flat and their posts come off as very strange and somehow warped to me. Maybe it's the huge amount of dishonesty to themselves and the world around them that does this? Also, they love to use operational military terms in political debates because they are obessed with war and/or guns.

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  164. Anonymous7:48 PM

    The Fly lays more maggots:Right, I think got it. Although sharing intelligence between federal agencies is a violation of FISA, Clinton being a Democrat is entitled to a 0.01% inherent authority window to "breach the wall". On the other hand Bush being a Republican, gets a 0.00% inherent authority window to authorize terrorist surveillance so he "violated the law".

    George Bush was also "entitled" to violate FISA in the weeks immediately after 9/11. Nobody serious was going to get upset if he made it the first order of business to determine whether 9/11 was only Act I, and more horrors were imminent. The wall was still in place then, and if he breached it on 9/12, he should have.

    But since then, normalcy returned, and Congress was consulted as to what changes in FISA and other laws were needed. That body passed modifications, including a repeal of the wall.

    To repeat: ongoing, institutionalized violation of federal laws is prohibited by Youngstown. Bush is engaging in ongoing, institutionalized violation of FISA. He is committing criminal acts with no valid defense, and that is how the SCOTUS would rule.

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  165. Hypatia,

    "George Bush was also "entitled" to violate FISA in the weeks immediately after 9/11."

    What makes you think normalcy has returned? The fact that we have not been hit again? George Bush also has access to intelligence reports that the general public doesn't, so who are we to second guess whether or not a threat still exists?

    BTW, associating words like "spews" and "maggots" with someone elses opinion is so cool, you must really be smart.

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  166. Anonymous9:18 PM

    "BTW, associating words like "spews" and "maggots" with someone elses opinion is so cool, you must really be smart."

    But the question is: Are your views actually mischaracterized by those words? Hmmm...

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  167. Anonymous10:06 PM

    The Fly, Bart, most Bush apologists -- they are "conservatives" as F. A. Hayek described that cohort, and their attributes are among the reasons Hayek refused, in spite of pressure to do so, to accept that label for himself (my emphasis):

    Let me return, however, to the main point, which is the characteristic complacency of the conservative toward the action of established authority and his prime concern that this authority be not weakened rather than that its power be kept within bounds. This is difficult to reconcile with the preservation of liberty. In general, it can probably be said that the conservative does not object to coercion or arbitrary power so long as it is used for what he regards as the right purposes. He believes that if government is in the hands of decent men, it ought not to be too much restricted by rigid rules. Since he is essentially opportunist and lacks principles, his main hope must be that the wise and the good will rule...

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  168. Midnightride:

    Because the new provision in this Nixon Law [Section 2(a)(3)] which purports to "allow" just such cross-border communication monitoring as a result of surveillance of a non-U.S.-based target, seems to indicate that FISA does NOT allow border-crossing communications OF ANY KIND to be monitored, without a FISA Warrant.

    It does a couple of things: 1). It eliminates the warrant requirement of FISA, and 2). It allows for surveillances under much looser conditions:

    (2) The bill allows warrantless eavesdropping programs where there is "probable cause" to believe that one of the individuals whose communications will be intercepted as part of the program is someone “working in support of a group or organization” deemed to be a terrorist group (Section 2(a)(2)). [from Glenn's post]

    You can snoop to your heart's content, even using domestics as the "target", as long as you think that this person might make a few of the calls you're snooping to someone believed to be a "terrorist" (and you're doing a half-a$$ed job of trying to make sure you're only looking at international calls <*WINK*><*WINK*>). It doesn't change the FISA prohibition on purely domestic wiretaps, but it seems to go around the FISA restrictions on wiretaps physically perfomed locally (and in fact, seem to require the domestic telcos to co-operate in setting up taps even without warrants; hate to say it but I know the capabilioty of the domestic CALEA (Title III) compliance equipment, and there's no way you can screen the calls being surveilled to only international ones).

    As it says, "the President may rely on intelligence community professionals to make targeting decisions during the course of electronic surveillance...."

    HTH.

    Cheers,

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  169. Hypatia said,

    "George Bush was also "entitled" to violate FISA in the weeks immediately after 9/11. Nobody serious was going to get upset if he made it the first order of business to determine whether 9/11 was only Act I, and more horrors were imminent. The wall was still in place then, and if he breached it on 9/12, he should have."

    Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Here you acknowledge the point that I have been making, that FISA cannot be read as constraining the president's inherent constitutional power to take action for national security purposes. In this case, we agree that authorizing terrorist surveillance on 9/12 without first petitioning the FISA court for a warrant was reasonable.

    This is the very same point that you base your opposing claim on: "Bush has been violating FISA for four years on a routine basis", here you claim that because "normalcy has returned", the president no longer has the inherent power he did on 9/12. You base this on your personal opinion without the benefit of any of the related intelligence reports the president has access to.

    You are evidently unaware of the fact that the U.S. military is still actively engaged in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines and elsewhere working with the local governments to fight the various factions of the same terror group that we were eavesdropping on 9/12, with the additional authorization of Congress in the 2001 AUMF mind you.

    Just one example, in 1995 the government of the Philippines discovered a terror plot to blow up 12 U.S. transatlantic passenger jets. That scheme was foiled and in 2001 or early 2002 U.S. intelligence agencies linked the plot to one of the masterminds of the 9/11 conspiracy.

    It's difficult for me to imagine anything more foolish than your suggestion that the president's inherent power would prevail over FISA only after a terrorist attack in the U.S. has killed thousands of people, then following such an attack the president must promptly cede this authority back to the FISA court within a fews weeks. The reality of this situation is that the president believes it is still necessary to do everything possible to prevent such attacks.

    The game plan remains the same as it did on 9/12, the difference now is that as a matter of convenience some Democrats have adopted the "comfortably numb" platform in an attempt to further their narrow minded political agenda.

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  170. Anonymous11:26 PM

    Do you support the "new Nixon Law"? Come vote at WiPoll

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