Thursday, March 02, 2006

The NSA scandal now clearly includes interception of domestic communications, perjury and presidential lying

Alberto Gonzales sent a letter (.pdf) to the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday which contained what Gonzales called numerous "clarifications" of the testimony he gave on February 6 regarding the NSA program. What Gonzales actually did in this letter is identify numerous unambiguous statements to which he testified that were clearly false, and he "corrected" them in order to render them "true" in the narrowest, most legalistic, most misleading sense. In doing so, he left no doubt that the Administration has been engaged in a series of false and misleading statements about their conduct as part of this scandal.

There are many people who are eager to proclaim this scandal dead. But every week brings new revelations of impropriety, deceit, and most importantly, an ever-expanding scope of still-concealed eavesdropping activities on the American people. It is just absurd even to suggest that this scandal is anywhere near a resolution because the level of knowledge we have about what actually happened here – and by "we" I mean both the American people and even the Senate – is minuscule, even especially as to the question of the scope of the government’s warrantless eavesdropping on Americans.

Beyond that, it is becoming increasingly clear that Administration officials, including the President, have been make patently false statements to the public and to the Congress about their conduct here. The Gonzales letter is truly extraordinary for several reasons. Both Orin Kerr and Anonymous Liberal have posted some excellent analysis on the Gonazles letter, both of which I highly recommend reading. To their observations, I want to add a few points.

(1) As was discussed yesterday and reported by The Washington Post, all evidence points to the fact that the Administration – contrary to the clear and unambiguous assurances given by the President to the country – has been engaged in warrantless eavesdropping beyond merely "international calls" -- i.e., they are intercepting purely domestic calls as well, just as part of a "different program." As Reagan Administration Justice official Bruce Fein put it at yesterday's hearings:

At least one constitutional scholar who testified before the committee yesterday said in an interview that Gonzales appeared to be hinting that the operation disclosed by the New York Times in mid-December is not the full extent of eavesdropping on U.S. residents conducted without court warrants.

"It seems to me he is conceding that there are other NSA surveillance programs ongoing that the president hasn't told anyone about," said Bruce Fein . . . .

One of the principal purposes of Gonzales’ letter was to insist that assurances he gave while testifying about the scope of the Administration’s eavesdropping activities were confined only to what he called the "Terrorist Surveillance Program," and not other warrantless eavesdropping programs. As always, Administration officials conspicuously go to great lengths to confine statements they make about warrantless eavesdropping activities only to this eavesdropping program, because there are unquestionably others to which those assurances do not apply.

That the Administration is confining its statements only to the "Terrorist Surveillance Program" is not a new revelation, but what is critically important here is how Gonzales in his letter defines the scope of the "Terrorist Surveillance Program." He defines it as follows:

"interception by the NSA of the contents of the communications in which one party is outside of the United States where there are reasonable grounds to believe that at least one party to the communications is a member or agent of Al Qaeda or an affiliated terrorist organization ("the Terrorist Surveillance Program")."

Thus, any eavesdropping of communications which: (a) are between a person in the U.S. and someone in another country and (b) involve someone for which there is reasonable grounds to believe they are an Al Qaeda agent, are, by definition, part of "the Terrorist Surveillance Program." That means that any warrantless eavesdropping outside of this Program involves intercepting communications that either (a) are entirely domestic, and/or (b) do not require reasonable grounds for believing a party to the call is an Al Qaeda agent.

One cannot even count the number of times since this scandal began that Bush himself and the Administration assured the American public that warrantless eavesdropping is confined to international calls involving Al Qaeda agents. That has been their principal defense all along: "Don’t worry - we only eavesdrop on international calls and calls involving Al Qaeda. So if you only talk domestically, and don’t talk to terrorists, you have nothing to worry about."

But warrantless eavesdropping is plainly occurring beyond the "Terrorist Surveillance Program," which means that there is eavesdropping on domestic calls and/or calls not involving Al Qeada (since international calls involving Al Qaeda are, by definition, part of that Program). That means that the assurances repeatedly given by the President and his officials are just false.

Undoubtedly, the same excuse which the Administration used to justify the President’s prior false statements about eavesdropping (i.e., his false re-election claims that all eavesdropping on Americans is conducted with judicial oversight) will be used to defend the false statements here – namely, that when Bush assured the public that the only calls that were intercepted were international calls involving Al Qaeda, he was talking only about the Terrorist Surveillance Program, not other programs.

As a logical matter, that distinction is nothing short of idiotic. It is tantamount to telling the public: "Don’t worry, we only eavesdrop on your communications with judicial oversight," while leaving unstated the fact that renders the whole sentence false: "except for the eavesdropping we do on your communications without judicial oversight."

That lie-defending formula would translate here as: "Don’t worry, we only eavesdrop on your international communications when you talk to Al Qaeda," while leaving unstated the fact that renders the whole sentence false: "except for the eavesdropping we do on your domestic communications."

But beyond the logical absurdity is what would clearly be the political disaster for the White House if it is revealed that the eavesdropping extends beyond the limitations repeatedly described by the President. Nobody paid much attention to the President’s false re-elections assurances that the Government only eavesdrops with a warrant, because that did not appear to be a controversial statement at the time. After all, the 30-year-old law governing eavesdropping made it a criminal offense to eavesdrop without warrants, so it was hardly a noteworthy event that the President claimed (falsely) that the Government was eavesdropping only with warrants.

But his assurances to the American people since this scandal began that the Administration was eavesdropping only on international calls and only where Al Qaeda was a party to the conversation is something which was noticed by anyone paying even a small amount of attention to this scandal. Everyone remembers those assurances. That has been the White House’s primary response all along, the only one upon which they have consistently relied from the beginning.

If it turns out that those assurances were false – and, at this point, can anyone doubt that they are? -- it will be as plain as day that Bush misled the country when seeking to assure them of the limited scope of warrantless, lawless eavesdropping.

(2) Several weeks ago, I noted that Gonazles -- in response to questions from several Senators about whether the Administration has the power to engage in warrantless eavesdropping on purely domestic communications -- testified that the Department of Justice had never conducted a legal analysis of the legality of warrantless eavesdropping on strictly domestic communications. He made that claim several times:

"That analysis, quite frankly, has not been conducted."

"I have said I do not believe we have done the analysis on that."

"The legal analysis as to whether or not that kind of [domestic] surveillance – we haven’t done that kind of analysis . . "

Because of how unambiguous that denial was, and because Gonazles specifically said that such a program would entail a different legal analysis than the analysis for international communications, I concluded at the time that the DoJ was clearly claiming that there was no warrantless eavesdropping on domestic communications -- and I even said I thought that Gonazles' testimony on this topic made it highly unlikely that there ever was a program to eavesdrop on domestic communications.

After all, if a domestic eavesdropping program did exist, Gonzales would never go before the Senate (as he did) and testify that domestic eavesdropping requires a different legal analysis but the DoJ had never conducted that analysis. I reasoned at the time that he would deny having analyzed the legality of domestic surveillance only if there was no domestic eavesdropping, because otherwise, it would mean that the Administration was engaged in domestic eavesdropping while the Attorney General is expressly stating that nobody knows if doing so was legal (since the DoJ never analyzed that question).

In his letter yesterday, Gonzales backed away – completely – from what was his unambiguous (and now clearly false) claim that the DoJ had never analyzed the legality of warrantless eavesdropping for domestic communications. Clearly, the DoJ has analyzed the legality of warrantless domestic surveillance:

Since I was testifying only as to the legal basis of the activity confirmed by the President, I was referring only to the legal analysis of the Department set out in the January 19th paper, which addressed that activity and therefore, of course, does not address the interception of purely domestic communications. However, I did not mean to suggest that no analysis beyond the January 19th paper had ever been conducted by the Department.

I say this advisedly: the Administration is now in full-blown shameless lying mode. Gonzales repeatedly told the Committee that the DoJ had not analyzed the legality of domestic surveillance -- because he wanted to leave the impression that there is no domestic surveillance. In fact, the DoJ clearly has engaged in exactly the analysis Gonazles categorically denied.

His "clarification" rests on precisely the same "rationale" for making false statements as the excuses given for the President’s claims – "Yes, I told you that the DoJ had never conducted a legal analysis of eavesdropping on domestic communications. What I meant, of course, was that we did not do that analysis as part of this letter which addressed international communications – not that we never did that analysis (even though neither your question nor my answer was not confined to the January 19 paper)."

Or, to put it another way, Gonzales said: "Don’t worry, we never even conducted an analysis of the legality of eavesdropping on domestic communications," while leaving unstated the fact that renders the whole sentence false: "I mean, of course, as part of the January 19 letter- when I say we never analyzed the legality of domestic surveillance, I am silently excluding from my answer those times when we did exactly that."

Is this why the Republicans on the Committee voted unanimously against putting Gonazles under oath when he testified? Gonzales had weeks to prepare for this testimony. He is a trained lawyer. Unlike most witnesses in a lawsuit, he was never cut off by the questioner. He was free to speak at will in response to every question for as long as he wanted, and to say whatever he wanted. Why is it necessary for him to issue a 6-page single-spaced letter, the bulk of which is devoted to "clarifying" what was his unambiguous (false) testimony to the Committee just a few weeks ago?

Is the Senate Judiciary Committee going to tolerate being lied to and misled for eight hours by an Administration that, beginning with the President on down, has misled the Congress for four years about its law-breaking? Are Americans?

What possible excuse exists for the Administration refusing to answer these two questions:

Does the Administration engage in warrantless eavesdropping on purely domestic communications?

Does the Administration engage in warrantless eavesdropping on the communications of Americans where this is no reasonable basis for believing that one of the parties to the call is an agent or affiliate of Al Qaeda?

How can the Senate -- and the media -- possibly allow this matter to be resolved if we don't know whether there is warrantless eavesdropping beyond the limits that the President claimed exist?

As I’ve said before, all Presidential law-breaking scandals have two components: the wrongdoing itself, followed by the schemes of concealment and lying to cover up the wrongdoing. The testimony from Gonzales was full-on, unambiguous deceit, as was, it seems increasingly clear, the assurances of the President as to the limitations of this warrantless eavesdropping.

The question as to whether there are consequences for our highest government officials to break the law blatantly and repeatedly is one that we have asked many times. Added to that as part of this scandal is now this question: Are there consequences for lying about it, including as part of testimony to the Senate which is investigating that law-breaking?

And is it even remotely possible to sweep this scandal under the rug without now digging into the question which is begging and screaming to be answered. That is: are there other programs which entail warrantless eavesdropping on Americans beyond the parameters of what the President repeatedly claimed, including purely domestic communications? If that is the case (and every sign points to the fact that it is), how could it possible for the President -- even with our sleep-walking media and our country’s heightened tolerance for governmental deceit -- to politically survive such blatantly false statements to the country?

52 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:51 AM

    I can't wait to hear how the contrarians (I'm being generous, I know) try to explain this away as 'inherent powers' or the like.

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  2. Anonymous12:10 PM

    I have been wondering about 2 things when I follow commentary on the NSA spying story.
    1) There were reports that we tapped the phones of UN diplomats (allies no less) prior to the invasion of IRAQ. We are left with the feeling that this is just normal espionage activity. Kind of a no big deal feeling.
    2) If your name is on a "No Fly List" does that automatically make you eligible to have all of your phone conversations tapped. If yes, perhaps when we hear of an infant who's name is on the "No Fly List" and how idiotic that is, just maybe we should google the name to determine if in fact the name corresponds to someone active in politics. I recall that Senator Ted Kennedy's name was on a "No Fly List." Maybe the fall back position is "No one knows how this could have happened" meanwhile the listee is an honorary target of the "Terrorist Surveilance Program."
    Both circumstances might suggest that the administration has turned our intelligence agencies into political tools.

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  3. Anonymous12:13 PM

    How? How did he push through the Port deal when 70% of the country is against it? A blinding, relentless consolidation of power coupled with "ammunition" to use against his opponents, and the fact that Paul Craig Roberts says that almost half the country is dumber than Bush.

    Naturally, even that wouldn't be enough if Bush hadn't instilled actual fear in those who want to speak out against him, but fear the consequences.

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  4. ….how could it possible for the President -- even with our sleep-walking media and our country’s heightened tolerance for governmental deceit -- to politically survive such blatantly false statements to the country?

    I think the answer to that is: denial and blaming a “liberal media” and “angry Bush-haters” for daring to suggest that they engaged in blatantly false statements.

    The administration just got caught in a blatant lie on Katrina, and we even have the video to prove it, and that’s exactly what Bush supporters are doing in this instance. This is a little off topic, but it is relevant on how they will respond to being caught in a lie. And it’s also one more nail in the coffin of Bush’s credibility:


    If ever we needed proof of a cult mentality, today’s PowerLine response to the AP article and release of video showing Bush blatantly lied about Katrina is it.

    They are saying, in effect: don’t believe your lying eyes, don’t believe what see or hear, believe only what we tell you to believe – everything else is a lie and a fraud.

    Here’s their actual words:

    The AP article is fatally compromised by its factual errors, and adds nothing to our understanding of the issues surrounding Hurricane Katrina. It also raises an important point about the leaks that form the basis for many news stories these days. The AP took what appears to have been a substantial quantity of leaked material, and turned it into a brief against the Bush administration. Whether the documents themselves contain anything noteworthy, and whether, on balance, they support the AP's tendentious interpretation, is impossible to tell. In view of the fact that no one trusts the AP, the New York Times and other news outlets who make use of leaked documents and other materials to report on them objectively, here is a modest proposal: let us see them. If the AP will release the leaked materials, the rest of us will quickly figure out what significance, if any, they have.

    That gives us a preview into how they will with hard evidence of blatant false statements.
    And the two very relevant questions you pose will be refused to be answered, once again, by wrapping their deceit in “National Security.”

    But with Bush’s increasingly damaged credibility, it’s becoming less and less likely that they’ll get away with it. We’re not quite there yet, but we should eventually reach the point, as the saying goes, where “the jig is up.”

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  5. Anonymous12:23 PM

    But warrantless eavesdropping is plainly occurring beyond the "Terrorist Surveillance Program,"

    To your enormous credit, you have been very careful not to argue for more than the known facts will support at any given time in the unfolding of this scandal. Your analysis as to why it can now be said that the Bush Administration is simply in full-blown lying mode, and that the illegality reaches far beyond domestic-foreign communications where an AQ agent is involved, is overwhelmingly persuasive.

    As I recall, when Gonzalez was asked by the SJC whether he would be willing to have Mssrs. Comey and Goldsmith testify, he grudgingly agreed, but also said that their disagreements -- and reasons for leaving or being pushed out of the Administration -- did not involve the Terrorist Surveillance Program. Whatever these conservative lawyers objections have been, apparently, those relate to other illegalities.

    No wonder then, and especially in light of your analysis, that the Bush Administration is insisting on invoking Executive Privilege to cramp any testimony these two men might give.

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  6. Anonymous12:29 PM

    It's all a matter of pure politics at this point. The administration's criminality is blatent and obvious and their coverup is weak and transparent. They are as incompetent at law breaking as they are at governing, in both cases depending on post screw-up bluster make reality go away. Only with continued heroic efforts by congress and the media to protect them from accountability can they survive. The real questions are: can the Democrats be persuaded to give up their suicidal quest of persuing the dwindling minority of Bush supporters while abandoning the majority, when or if will Republicans in congress decide that sacrificing Bush is a matter of self preservation for themselves, and when will the media decide they no longer have the obligation or the ability to perpetuate myths most people have rejected.

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  7. Anonymous12:30 PM

    What? They lying liars have not been honest?

    Imagine my surprise...

    I thought they stole the election in 2000 to represent the people and show the world what the virtues of democracy....

    Isn't that why the SCOTUS installed the chimperor without actually counting the vote that proved Gore won?

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  8. Anonymous12:32 PM

    How did he push through the Port deal when 70% of the country is against it?

    Again, truly shocking....

    When they stole the election in 2000, I thought that they were going to stand up for the constitution and the "will of the people."

    Isn't that why they circumvented the voting process and used fraud to gain power -- so that they could "represent us" and show the "beacon of democracy" to the world?

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  9. Of course when one isn't under oath, the afterclarifications become more interesting. Am ever hopeful that a nexis moment is upon us, ie, the 250 pages of emails from Cheney's office on Plame will mention wiretapping Wilson. Too much to ask for? Oh well.

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  10. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Thank you for a very clear analysis of Gonzales' backtracking.

    Is his sudden urge to clarify a response to the New York Times' request for information?

    You show how he narrows even further the activities he claims to have discussed, which provides some map of the activities that he is refusing to address.

    Maybe you should reconsider "NSA scandal" as your description of the issue at hand. It looks to me like it's too narrow, since it's bound to extend beyond NSA and it's more than a scandal. How about, say, "Big Brother coup"?

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  11. Anonymous12:38 PM

    Zack, the jig *is* up. The polls are saying, quite loudly, that most Americans are not buying this stuff anymore.
    Thanks, Glenn, for confirming what I thought I heard during the AGs testimony on Feb 06. There's another program out there. None of the assurances that he was giving to the committee regarding international calls could necessarily be applied to the other program. He couldn't talk about it due to national security reasons. (yeah, right)
    There were so many holes in his testimoney you could drive a truck right through them. In fact, I was surprised at how blatant his admissions were about the other program. There was a certain smugness that was truly disturbing to watch.
    I don't hold out any hope of getting Comey to testify. These jerks are going to use every trick in the book to prevent it. And therein lies their undoing. It is beginning to look more and more Nixonian everyday. The bastards think they have the whole thing sown up. But I think they overlook one thing. They may have gotten elected through deceit but true Americans do not stay duped forever. Once they start violating those things that we were raised on, they step into dangerous territory. The truth is going to come out and soon. And then all hell will break loose.

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  12. Anonymous12:41 PM

    What can trump Executive Privilege and National Security claims? Is there not a body that can and must at some point look at what the WH is hiding? If not, balance of powers is a sick joke.

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  13. Anonymous12:47 PM

    He couldn't talk about it due to national security reasons.

    Well, since chimpy was actually never elected in the first place and was appointed by the SCOTUS, information that might conclusively prove that is is time to impeach might somehow sort-of relate to national security, right?

    I mean, there is enough treason, and war crimes and crimes against humanity that some people might get angry, right?

    Isn't that some type of "security" issue?

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  14. Anonymous12:48 PM

    Masterfully written. This should have been on the Opinion page of the NYT. They have room, since they kicked William Safire out, right? Or have they summoned another fabricator to fill his shoes?

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  15. Anonymous12:52 PM

    I truly onder [sic] how our "journalists" look at themselves in the mirror

    They imagine themselves as the next generation of super-rich, power-elites. The believe that they have "arrived" and will soon be reward as the important people they are.

    After all, its chimpy's job to "say the same things over and ove again," but they are the gods that "catapult the propaganda."

    Soon, they imagine, they will own the nice houses, luxery cars and SUVs, and be invited to all the exlusive parties.

    Yes, it will happen... if the are "good reporters" and do their job -- support the lying liars... They have pretty faces and all the right clothes....

    In time, they think they will be reward and rule the earth...

    ... and they won't want any real journalists then either.

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  16. Anonymous12:53 PM

    true Americans do not stay duped forever

    We shall see, won't we... Perhaps they will stay duped for a few generations...

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  17. ...will Republicans in congress decide that sacrificing Bush is a matter of self preservation for themselves

    I see that as the more likely scenario. The biggest threat to Bush's political strength has, sadly, never really been the Democrats. The one's willing to take a principled stand, like Feingold or Boxer, are too few compared to the "go along to get along" Dems like Lieberman and Biden. Bush's weakness has always been a revolt from his own party, and now that this scandal has gained traction, along with all the others, and Bush's approval and favorability ratings continue to fall, he's become a liability to his party in the 2006 mid-terms.

    Of course, it's pretty tough to take comfort in needing help from the party of cronyism and lockstep loyalty to hold a member of their own party accountable...

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  18. Anonymous1:00 PM

    The lie of "objective journalism" is deeply embedded -- it is taught in every school district. The dishonest reporting we see today is only possible because of the lies that children have been taught for generations. It took a while, but most Americans have been indoctrinated to accept "fair and balanced" which is a lie in and of itself.

    If chimpy was AWOL from TANG -- they they have to cover the lying liar's swiftboating of Kerry...

    If there is a fact that they find "inconvenient," they dutifully have to cover a lie.

    Perhaps the biggest lie about journalism we have been taught is that Bob Woodward was some type "super-reporter" when he was breaking watergate.

    He was just a tool, dutifully reporting infomation that was deliberately leaded to him to manage a difficult situation.

    We became so distracted with a third-rate buglarly that no one even asked, "why did the leader of the free world allow something like this to happen when he was going to win an election by a landslide?"

    Must have been some real fire behind that smoke...

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  19. Warrantless eavesdropping is the least of our worries;

    The actual eavesdropping is not the big issue, though it is problematic enough in and of itself. The issue is a President that feels he has limitless Executive power in a time of war combined with the power to initiate a war that never ends. If history tells us anything, it's that those with power always use that power to its fullest eventually. If Bush discovers that he can ignore FISA and the McCain torture act, then what's next? I can think of quite a few laws and Constitutional Amendments that a President might find restrictive...will they be the next to go?

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  20. Anonymous1:05 PM

    Bush's weakness has always been a revolt from his own party, and now that this scandal has gained traction, along with all the others, and Bush's approval and favorability ratings continue to fall, he's become a liability to his party in the 2006 mid-terms.

    The conservatives' revolt continues, with George Will's latest: Rhetoric of Unreality -Where Is Iraq After Nearly 3 Years of War?

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  21. Anonymous1:07 PM

    What can trump Executive Privilege and National Security claims?

    It looks like the military industrial complex has the trump cards. If the executive or legislative branches can't do what they want, they conveniently distract us by having the SCOTUS packed and ready to do their dirty work.

    We need to start following the "money trail" and talking about the causes of our problems and not the distractions and enable it all to continue.

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  22. Anonymous1:14 PM

    Republicans in congress decide that sacrificing Bush is a matter of self preservation for themselves

    ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh
    pppppuuuuuuuuuuuuullleeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    The repugs in congress have never been calling the shot, but you are right about someone deciding to "pull-the-plug" on the chimperor.

    If the marching orders come down, yes, the repug congress will follow orders. After all, they are the "best" group of legislators that "money can buy," just ask Abramhoff.

    When chimpy is no longer useful to the military-industrial complex, they will let him go -- this will enable the thievery to continue while we are all distracted at the charades.

    In the meantime, the "ultimate consumable" market -- the war machine, will continue to prosper.

    And we will be talking about a damn chimpanzee!

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  23. Anonymous1:15 PM

    Glen, keep it going. Great work.

    The AG wasn't under oath, but it is nonetheless against the law to lie to Congress. What is the AG's legal exposure here?

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  24. Anonymous1:19 PM

    Why is he correcting his lies, when (a) no one had caught him in the lie yet, and (b) he wasn't under oath anyway?

    Well, he has a lot of "cover" now

    *NOLA
    *Approval ratings in toilet
    *Civil war in Iraq
    *Selling vital national assets to a government that is infiltraded by Al Quada
    *Healthcare crisis
    *Despite bleatings of MSM, economy is in toilet for most Americans

    Don't forget, they will start up the Social Security Bamboozle tour again after 2006 -- even though they will deny it and republicans will proclaim support BEFORE 2006, they will declair they have a mandate and "political capital" to eliminate it AFTER the elections.

    Isn't that exactly what chimpy did in 2004. Remember, the chimperor says there is no trust fund -- he gave most of it to the military industrial complex and used the rest for tax cuts for the super-rich

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  25. This is what I never understood about senate hearings (this post and the brouhaha about the Energy Task Force/Big Oil involvement); over here lying to a parliamentary committee (or to parliament) is a crime. No bollocks about under-oath, just that - you get caught lying, you're DOA.

    Why the get-out? Do they expect some people to not lie? Do they know some people will have to?

    I don't understand how you got to this situation.

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  26. On a related issue: Standing - Individual members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have it!

    Many have asked why doesn't someone challenge the Bush administration in court over the legality of the warrantless surveillance being performed by the NSA. The standard response is that in order to bring a court challenge, one must have "standing" (i.e. one must have been injured).

    I would propose that the individual members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have standing! My argument is that the administration is required by law to inform the Congressional Intelligence committees of all intelligence activities, and that the Bush administration did not do this in the case of the warrantless surveillance being performed by the NSA. Informing just the "gang of eight" does not meet the requirement of informing all of the members of the Congressional Intelligence committees.

    Even if the Bush administration were to now inform the Congressional Intelligence committees (which even now is a matter of some dispute regarding the paucity of information provided in closed-door classified briefings), the fact remains that the Bush administration waited over 4 years to provide what little information they've finally produced.

    An analogy that seems to fit is as follows:

    Someone steals your wallet. 4 years later, they return your wallet. There even might be some cash still in it. The point is that the theft of the wallet was and is a crime. Returning it 4 years later does not change the underlying fact that a crime was committed. As the rightful owner of the wallet, you have been the victim of a crime. You are the injured party and therefore, you have standing!

    So Glenn, tell my this analogy doesn't apply in the case of the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance and their failure to inform all of the members of the Congressional Intelligence committees of all intelligence activities,

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  27. Anonymous2:15 PM

    Still no contrarian positions. Not sure if this is a good or bad sign.

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  28. Anonymous2:28 PM

    yankeependragon said...

    Still no contrarian positions. Not sure if this is a good or bad sign.

    I'm sure Banana-Republic bart will be along shortly...


    -- SoulCatcher

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  29. On the basis of these new remarks from Gonzales it is little wonder he wasn't sworn in!

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  30. The whole thing reminds me of the "Expedition to Lake Pahoe" skit from Monty Python:

    Sir John: ...may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And, finally, necrophilia is right out.

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  31. Anonymous2:55 PM

    About time for a plug for the (lovely) Michael Moore.

    No wonder the Rs hate him - he turns out to have been almost unerringly right about everything he covered in Fahrenheit 9/11. Like:

    1) Deception in marketing the War in Iraq

    2) Fear-mongering as everyday politics

    3) Illegal spying on American citizens

    4) Indiscriminate killing of Iraqis

    5) Bush cronyism involving Arabian Gulf nations

    6) Incompetence, graft, dodging responsibility

    6) Lying, lying, lying...

    Don't forget how that film began: with the Scalian coup d'etat of Election 2000, where it all started.

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  32. Anonymous3:02 PM

    "Is the Senate Judiciary Committee going to tolerate being lied to and misled for eight hours [by this Administration]?...Are Americans [going to tolerate it]?"

    YES, they'll tolerate it! Those who can will cover for it!

    Important aside: Glenn, when you have a spare moment, get yourself up-to-speed on international law -- or else please decline to offer your opinions on it.

    You have not read "Lawless World" by Philippe Sands, or at least it seems impossible to believe you could have, given your reckless comments about the applicability of the UN charter to US actions. You came off as woefully uninformed, even for a layperson. You will benefit from spending a few moments with this important book.

    That quibbling now done with, your work here is, as usual, essential daily reading.

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  33. Anonymous3:05 PM

    "Is the Senate Judiciary Committee going to tolerate being lied to and misled for eight hours by an Administration that, beginning with the President on down, has misled the Congress for four years about its law-breaking? Are Americans?"

    Silly Glenn, of course they are!

    By the way, keep up the excellent work. I love your blog and enjoyed seeing you on CSPAN last month addressing these issues.

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  34. Anonymous3:17 PM


    Important aside: Glenn, when you have a spare moment, get yourself up-to-speed on international law -- or else please decline to offer your opinions on it.


    You are in error. Glenn has a perfect grasp of what is wrong with the vaporous field known as international "law," but he is very busy right now defending actual, American law against an Administration that is flagrantly violating it.

    In the months and years ahead -- once the NSA matter has been fully developed -- perhaps he will return to elucidating the intellectual and political pitfalls of international "law." I for one look forward to it.

    But that time is not now.

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  35. Anonymous3:18 PM

    What do you think the chances are that they were eavesdropping on John Kerry, John Dean or Hillary Clinton during the 2004 campaign?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous3:46 PM

    YAWN......


    Says the "Dog"

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  37. Anonymous3:51 PM

    Remember that Carter and Clinton also did warrentless spying. Specifically Clinton with project echelon.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous3:58 PM

    What do you think the chances are that they were eavesdropping on John Kerry, John Dean or Hillary Clinton during the 2004 campaign?

    On John Dean, it's a certainty.


    With Hillary Clinton, absolutely not. Are you kidding? She would have been in the room listening to John Dean's tapes with them.

    When are you going to understand that the cozy Clinton/Bush relationship has been going on for some time, and for good reason. They are members of the same "brotherhood."

    Their loyalty is to the club, not to Americans. "Brothers" do not spy on each other. They work together to perfect the best ways to steal and prosper.

    What unites all "brothers" is that they are all glorified grifters.

    John Kerry is probably some place in between. He's no saint.

    If the Republicans don't win in 2008, they'll only be upset if Hillary isn't the winner.

    If she is, damn straight ahead, mates. Business as usual. The military/industrial/crooked Wall Street brigade proceeds.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Powerline sez (with nominally straight face):

    In view of the fact that no one trusts the AP, the New York Times and other news outlets who make use of leaked documents and other materials to report on them objectively,....

    To quote someone nameless: "Heh."

    In view of the fact that pretty soon no one (except b***-sucking sycophants trying to 'save' the worst presidency ever, such as Powerline) will trust anything that the maladministration ever says, I think that Hindrocket is barking up the wrong tree WRT credibility....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous4:17 PM

    Thanks Hypatia, but your opinion that there ought to be no international law, at least insofar as it would impinge on the USA, has already been heard. You are firmly in the John Bolton camp.

    As to the qustion of whether or not such law exists, your opinion couldn't be less relevant.

    The fact remains that, among other international treaties, the UN Charter has status as "the law of the land" here in the US.

    You're free not to like what you scare quote as 'international "law"', or to attempt to interpret it in ways that erase it, but Glenn was wrong in thinking it facially inapplicable.

    If you don't find the Sands book enlightening you're either already an expert (an assumption whose falsity is given away by your own comments) or a clown.

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  41. Someone steals your wallet. 4 years later, they return your wallet. There even might be some cash still in it. The point is that the theft of the wallet was and is a crime. Returning it 4 years later does not change the underlying fact that a crime was committed.

    Actually, I think that theft in many cases (may vary by state) requires "intent" to "permanently deprive" someone of the property. "Joy-riding" is a separate crime in some states, IIRC, as the "joy-rider" might not have had the requisite intent to permanently deprive.

    Not to say that unauthorised "borrowing" is not a crime, but if you have specific questions about a specific factual situation, consult a legal professional; IANAL. ;-)

    Cheers,

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  42. Remember that Carter and Clinton also did warrentless spying. Specifically Clinton with project echelon.

    This is a deceitful talking points myth whose death is long overdue.

    There were so many important points in that Gonzales letter that I had to leave a bunch of them out. But here is one thing he said:

    At the Committee hearing, Sen Feingold asked him: “Do you know of any other President who has authorized warrantless wiretaps outside of FISA since 1978 when FISA was passed?”

    Gonzales' answered that question in his letter yesterday:

    “If the question is limited to electronic surveillance as defined in FISA . . . we are unaware of any such authorizations.”

    Can we stop it with the "Clinton-and-Carter-did-it-too" line now?

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  43. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Thanks for the response Glenn. I wasn't trying to be a troll, but I have friends who run "Clinton-Carter" response all the time and I didn't really know how to respond. I thought I might get a good response if I didn't include sarcasm in my original post.

    Does anyone know of a place where I can find information on the Echelon program besides Newsmax? I would like to be albe to set them straight on that as well.

    I do find it amazing that apologists for Bush will try to rationalize their argument by saying someone else did it. They are basically admitting that they think what Bush is doing is illegal, but they will always try to fall back on Clinton. Doesn't make much sense to me.

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  44. Anonymous4:59 PM

    Vermontraccoon:
    "They have the guns, but we have the numbers."

    Don't forget the 2d Amendment. They're not the only ones with the guns.

    My story that I'm sticking to: I "sold" all my guns years ago to a private collector, and, for the life of me, I can't remember his name.

    And don't forget, when you're stocking up on ammo, use cash.

    The Democrats are wrong, wrong, wrong on the issue of gun control. Gun control is nothing more than being able to hit what you're aiming at.

    Who would ever have dreamed that "Red Dawn" cast the wrong army?

    Anon for a reason.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous5:07 PM

    Scoop Poopy Dog:

    Go back to your pink lipstick, my little stupid one.

    Says your Homerotic!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous5:53 PM

    So we take them to task,
    No More Domestic Spying. Ever.
    Got it?

    Sounds so cool, eh?

    The teeny problem would be - the program simply changes names, burrows deeper, and continues business as usual. Who oversees the alphabet intels? The NSA,DIA,CIA,..pick 3 random letters. Apparently, the Senate Intelligence Committee was out of the Loop, even the three or four who were supposed to get the ultra-top-platinum-scary-Secret briefings.

    I want to have faith. I want to believe we can stop this hellbent race to turn the Constitution into merely a "damned piece of paper" (As our beloved Commander FrankenBush calls it).

    The problem is, my faith is in the American PEOPLE.
    The government, on the other hand, scares the literal hell out of me.

    Speaking of whick, anyone check this out yet:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=%20CH20060103&articleId=1714

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  47. Anonymous7:32 PM

    Can we stop it with the "Clinton-and-Carter-did-it-too" line now?

    Carter, yes. Clinton only after you explain why Bill and Hillary ordering up stacks of personal records from the FBI and IRS concerning their political opponents the minute they moved into the White House does not constitute "spying without a warrent."

    ReplyDelete
  48. Glenn Greenwald said...

    Remember that Carter and Clinton also did warrentless spying. Specifically Clinton with project echelon. This is a deceitful talking points myth whose death is long overdue.

    There were so many important points in that Gonzales letter that I had to leave a bunch of them out. But here is one thing he said:

    At the Committee hearing, Sen Feingold asked him: “Do you know of any other President who has authorized warrantless wiretaps outside of FISA since 1978 when FISA was passed?”

    Gonzales' answered that question in his letter yesterday:

    “If the question is limited to electronic surveillance as defined in FISA . . . we are unaware of any such authorizations.”


    There are so many ways that Gonzales could be avoiding that question...

    1) A "wiretap" is usually a physical intercept along the landline. ECHELON involved the worldwide interception of atmospheric transmissions of all types of communications.

    2) Does ECHELON intercept "domestic calls" and fall under FISA if they are simply receiving transmissions off of satellites from a facility outside of the country?

    3) Did Clinton even sign an executive order authorizing ECHELON?

    Can we stop it with the "Clinton-and-Carter-did-it-too" line now?

    Actually, no.

    There is no difference between physical searches and the interception of communications. There are statutes requiring warrants for both.

    Mr. Clinton invoked his Article II authority to conduct warrantless searches of foreign groups and their agents in the US when he searched the home of American citizen and foreign agent, Aldrich Ames.

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  49. Anonymous12:30 AM

    I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop, and to finally get the evidence that the NSA was spying on other 2004 presidential campaigns upon White House/DoJ orders. Given the extremely low rejection rate of warrants by the FISA Court, I just can't think of anything else plausible for the White House to avoid going through the process.

    I also keep waiting for the So-Called Liberal Media to finally ask, "Hey, how do we know these surveillance programs are really aimed at "terrorists", aside from your say-so, and you just admitted you've been lying because you broke the law? Why is your say-so credible about anything anymore?"

    ReplyDelete
  50. I heard a portion of the Gonzales morning hearing session live via Pacifica radio. Senator Feinstein threw out a number of questions including whetherthe President could suspend posse comitatus and the $64,000 question, whether the President could order someone killed on U.S. soil under the Administration's interpretation of his authority. Gonzales did not issue a direct denial, but instead stated that he was not comfortable addressing such issues. I was surprised at the courage of Sen. Feinstein in asking this blunt question to the AG and I tried to find this question in the transcripts and videos of the hearing to share with other bloggers with no success. Is it possible that this question was deleted (with consent from the Dems) because it was deemed by both sides to be too misleading? Did anyone else hear this portion of testimony or have any explanation for this?

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  51. Anonymous4:05 AM

    Maybe Feinstein withdrew the question without objection from the Committee.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous12:35 PM

    Glenn, I think you are doing some very good work on the whole snoopgate issue. However, there was one passage from the Gonzales letter, which you quote, which jumped out at me for a reason which didn't garner your attention.

    According to the WaPo during his testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, "Gonzales offered clarifications or new explanations for some aspects of the monitoring program. He told the panel that the NSA is relying on 'probable cause' when picking targets but said a different term -- 'reasonable basis' -- was used because the NSA employees are not lawyers." This was offered as a "clarification" of an earlier statement by General Hayden that the NSA used the lower standard of "reasonable basis to believe." The letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee offering further "clarification" contains the passage, "interception by the NSA of the contents of the communications in which one party is outside of the United States where there are reasonable grounds to believe that at least one party to the communications is a member or agent of Al Qaeda or an affiliated terrorist organization ("the Terrorist Surveillance Program")."
    It appears to me that he has backtracked on the standard employed by the NSA. He excused Hayden for getting the the standard wrong because Hayden is not a lawyer. Clearly, Gonzales does not have this excuse for himself. (Emphasis added throughout.)

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