One of the most annoying victim movements around is the petulant and growing group, led by the odious David Horowitz, which incessantly whines that pro-Bush students on college campuses are treated very, very unfairly because their views are not praised by all that many people and sometimes are even harshly criticized.
As I've written about many times before, the examples of supposed victimhood almost never entail any actual repression of, or institutional punishment for, the expression of unpopular conservative views, but rather, are composed only of disagreement by other students and faculty members which make the right-wing students feel uncomfortable and unloved. In that regard, this whiny movement is nothing more than the mirror image of the worst elements of the PC movement of the 1990s -- while deceitfully parading under the banner of free expression, its true aim is to render impermissible the expression of political views which the conservative students dislike.
A vivid example illustrating their true agenda can be found in the blossoming "controversy" over what appears to be the imminent offer of a tenured professorship by Yale University to liberal Professor of Mideast Studies (and well-read blogger) Juan Cole, to teach at the Yale Center for International and Area Studies and in the Yale History Department. Many Bush supporters are arguing that Professor Cole espouses political views which apparently ought to be off-limits on college campuses, and there is thus a burgeoning movement to induce Yale to reconsider its decision. These efforts, of course, are coming from many of the same circles of sermoniziers who hold themselves out as defenders of academic freedom when they decry the oh-so-terrible reception which greets right-wing views on some campuses.
A lengthy smear piece by two students -- one an undergraduate at Yale (who happens to be Powerline Big Trunk's daughter, whom he calls "Little Trunk") and the other at Harvard Law -- was published yesterday in the New York Sun. The article selects multiple half-sentence snippets of Cole's writing in order to "demonstrate" that he harbors a "deep and abiding hatred of Israel"; that "if it were up to Mr. Cole, the country wouldn't exist at all"; and that he is "best known for disparaging the participation of prominent American Jews in government."
The usual suspects -- some of whom themselves have decried the (largely non-existent) suppression of right-wing views on college campuses -- have jumped onto the bandwagon, urging that Cole not be hired. Sharing the same McCarthyite talking points, they each suggest -- with zero basis -- that Cole even shares the same views as the Taliban; hence: "Taliban Man at Yale may soon have congenial company" and "A Teacher for Taliban Man."
According to the Sun, the indictment of Professor Cole for thought crimes include these accusations:
* His "most frequent public statements and writing - many of which appear on his blog, Informed Comment - have deviated considerably from his areas of expertise";
* He "rarely misses an opportunity to inveigh against Israel";
* He "contends [that] Israel is 'the most dangerous regime in the Middle East' and the primary instigator of the terrorist threat against America";
* "He believes that American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the American pro-Israel lobby group that is one of the targets of the Mearsheimer/Walt paper, has Congress in its back pocket";
* "Only last month, Mr. Cole made headlines for effusively praising the Walt/Mearsheimer paper."
Whether those claims accurately describe Professor Cole's views is something I am going to leave to the side. Even if it does accurately describe his views, shouldn't a professor be permitted to express those views on a college campus?
But the attempt here, of course, is not to claim that Professor Cole's scholarship is lacking, but to insinuate, and at times even outright state, that he is a rabid anti-Semite because of his views on Israel. But the column's attempt to depict Professor Cole as some sort of Jew-despising hatemonger is completely negated by the acknowledgement which it is forced to make, at the end, in passing:
Mr. Cole takes pains to demonstrate that he harbors no ill will against Jews per se. It's "Likudniks" (or as Mr. Cole says, "Jewish American Likudniks," or simply, "the American Likud") that he despises. For example, Mr. Cole writes that the "real roots" of the Likud party lie in a "kind of fascism" and that Likud "isn't morally superior in most respects to the Syrian Baath ... it treats at least 3 million people no better than and possibly worse than the Syrian Baath treats its 17 million."
Anyone who has ever read anything written by Professor Cole -- and I have, and I have disagreed with much of it -- knows that the claim that he is anti-Semitic is a baseless and defamatory myth. It is a smear that is achieved only by the depressingly common attempt to equate hostility towards the political agenda of Likud with hostility towards Jews generally, a tactic that is nothing short of disgusting.
This false equivalence is intended to stifle all debate on any matters relating to the Middle East by positing an equivalence between anti-Semitism and a criticism of a specific, minority strain of political ideology. One either must refrain from criticisms of the actions of Israel, and refrain from commenting on the influence asserted by its government over American policy, or else one will be publicly branded an anti-Semite. One is perfectly free to criticize other countries, and even criticize the level of influence their governments exert on American policy (to name but a few, condemning the influence on American policy of China, or Mexico, or Saudi Arabia, is all the rage, including among many of these same people). But the same arguments applied to Israel makes one an untouchable anti-Semite.
The intellectual bankruptcy of the argument is self-evident. It is no different than accusing someone who opposes the French Socialist Party of hating the French, or accusing someone who opposes some South American right-wing party of hating Latinos. Or accusing someone of opposing President Bush of hating America and loving Al Qaeda. This tactic is an inane but destructive character smear that has been allowed to fester for way too long. But it festers because anyone who complains about it guarantees that they, too, will be similarly branded as an anti-Semite or terrorist-lover, and so most people prefer to avoid the issue.
The same people agitating to block Professor Cole's appointment to Yale frequently argue that countries like Iran or Iraq or Islamic extremism generally are the greatest threats to American interests and world peace. They vigorously defend the Israeli government's views with regard to its dispute with the Palestinians, insist that Israeli interests are virtually identical to American interests with regard to the "war" against Islamic extremism, and argue that Israelis are essentially blameless for the general climate of hatred and conflict in the Middle East. And, needless to say, they ought to be allowed to espouse those views, on college campuses and outside of them.
We have seen this repressive tactic applied repeatedly to American political debates over the last five years, and this is merely a specific strain of that tactic which uses the lowly art of character smear in order to exclude opposing views from college campuses.
But many of these same true believers seek simultaneously to render any opposing views prohibited, off-limits at any mainstream institution or college campus. The list of prohibited ideas includes the view that Israel is the principal antagonist of conflict in the Middle East generally, that American interests are harmed when the U.S. defends Israel too reflexively or blindly, and that Israel bears principal culpability with regard to the Palestinian issue. As the reaction to Professor Cole conclusively demonstrates, they want anyone who advocates those views to be blacklisted (and again, I am simply assuming, but not accepting, that those descriptions accurately describe Professor Cole's views).
It does not matter what one thinks about any of those views. Particularly at academic institutions, those issues ought to be debated. And the debates ought not to be one-sided. As I said, I disagree with many of Professor Cole's views. But the very idea that the views he expresses not only places him outside of the mainstream, but outside of the realm of what can be tolerated by a decent society or college campus, is, on its face, completely frivolous. This is not about anything other than trying to impose one's own views as academic orthodoxy and to ensure that one's political views on highly controversial political matters enjoys the status of unquestionable piety.
We have seen this same tactic applied to American political debates over the last five years, and these attempts to prevent Yale from appointing Professor Cole to its faculty are just a specific strain of that tactic, which employs the lowly art of character smear in order to prevent opposing views.
UPDATE: As a random through illustrative example of some of these dynamics, one can look at this post from today by McQ, entitled: " Hypocrisy, Thy Name is Mexico." In the post, McQ aggressively criticizes a statement issued by the Mexican Government opposing a new immigration law enacted by the state of Georgia. McQ objects not only to the content of the specific statement issued by Mexico, but also to the mere expression of an opinion at all by Mexico. McQ thus argues: "frankly, coming from Mexico, I'd suggest they clean up their own house before they begin criticizing others," and he tells them: "Sorry Mexico ... not interested in your opinion of how we handle our business. Especially in light of how you handle yours."
McQ's views are caustic, but I don't think any reasonable person could say, at least based on this post, that he is a racist, that he hates Mexicans or Latinos, or that he harbors a "deep and abiding hatred" for Mexico. He is criticizing the Mexican government specifically and objecting to its attempts to influence American laws. And that's all he is doing.
But imagine if this same post were written about Israel -- that it were entitled "Hypocrisy, Thy Name is Israel" and said things like "Sorry Israel . . . not interested in your opinion of how we handle our business." How many minutes would elapse before hordes of anti-semitism accusations were heaped upon that person, including from many who would likely cheer the same sentiments expressed in McQ's post towards Mexico? That is the rancid double standard on which these smears and blacklists directed at people like Professor Cole have long been predicated. Every country and government is fair game for criticism and expression of concern over its influence except one.
There were a couple "students" whose cause was taken up by Horowitz that I've heard about. At least one, IIRC, was shown to be a liar. The second was a WATB complaining about a grade when the exam they wrote (whichwas available on-line) was horrible and deserved the grade given if not worse.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Be careful of those who allegedly limit their criticism to Likud. While that may be the case some of the time, in reality, most of that criticism is really aimed at the state of Israel itself, its legitimacy, and its narrative of events, and is conveniently packaged as Likud criticism. The Labor, Kadima and even Meretz positions within Israel are just as anathema to most critics ostensibly limited to Likud. For instance, ALL parties are supportive of the "apartheid wall," as the idiots like to call it, because they recognize that that's an effective way to stop the savages from exploding themselves among women and children in cafes. The parallel would be those in Europe who considered Colin Powell and Democrats to be "European," as opposed to the Republicans, when in reality, Democrats in this country are still way more apt to use force and pursue American interests in ways anathema to Europeans.
ReplyDeleteCole does see Israel as the villainous, colonialist, threat to the Arab people. He comes from the Edward Said school of Middle Eastern thought, which has come to dominate American universities, and is in my opinion, malignant. From what I've read, his criticism, despite his denial, is not limited to Likud. People have every right to challenge Cole and argue that he should not be tenured at Yale.
When people like Daniel Pipes get smeared and are subject to public calls for his ouster or against his hiring, where is your outcry?
No doubt, what Cole says in the following quote is happening to him at Yale:
ReplyDeleteThe substance seems to me unobjectionable. A congressman told me not so long ago, "Juan, I'm glad you're speaking out on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, because we can't." He meant by "we" the US Congress. What has happened to Mearsheimer and Walt is illustrative of what he meant by "can't." Mearsheimer admits that the two of them will never now be considered for a government position (e.g. National Security Council).
David Horowitz is an example of someone who, having once held extreme views dogmatically, then goes very far to other side but in equally extreme and dogmatic fashion. Whatever the problems have been in terms of enforced left-wing orthodoxy on campus, those have long been addressed by calm voices coming from academia itself, via groups such as The National Association of Scholars. And they don't just trawl for students with gripes and then publish them -- if someone claims a PC atrocity, they had better be able to back it up with facts for the NAS people.
ReplyDeleteHorowitz has been lobbying for a so-called "Academic Bill of Rights," which would essentially put the state in control of making sure that students are graded "fairly," thus robbing professors of their autonomous judgment, i.e., attacking their academic freedom. It is an awful idea all the way around, as Jesse Walker wrote of not long ago:
There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced debate, and a heavy-handed effort to create one is more likely to chill speech than to encourage it. The most worrisome thing about Horowitz's group is the sneaking suspicion that that's exactly what they want.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhen people like Daniel Pipes get smeared and are subject to public calls for his ouster or against his hiring, where is your outcry?
ReplyDeleteI would be just as opposed to efforts to have Daniel Pipes fired or have his appointment to a faculty blocked, assuming such efforts were based on the views he has espoused. But I have never heard of any such efforts - can you provide any citations?
note to hidden imam,
ReplyDeleteAnyone who uses the word "savages" in a sentence has completly discredited his own argument. The arbitrary dehumanization of people is how we got into this mess in the first place.
hypatia: Whatever the problems have been in terms of enforced left-wing orthodoxy on campus, those have long been addressed by calm voices coming from academia itself, via groups such as The National Association of Scholars.
ReplyDeleteI've always found the noise about liberal bias at colleges and universities to be lacking in data. There are nearly 10,000 institutions of higher learning in the US. No one, as far as I know, has ever polled all of them to learn whether all faculty are liberally biased or not.
How would you plan such a poll? Do you only include Humanities, as most polls do? What about the sciences? Many of these writings seem to be special pleadings that rely more on stereotype rather than fact.
From the New World Order Dictionary: (2020 edition)
ReplyDeleteFreedom (noun): An inalienable right or privilege enjoyed by a corporation or nobleman.
-examples:
-Lord William of Microsoft has the freedom to treat employees as he wishes.
-The Earl of Exxon has the freedom to charge what he likes for gasoline.
-His majesty, King George, is a bastion of freedom, says FOX "News"
buSHAMErica
Hey, I'm the commenter previously known just as "Dave."
ReplyDeleteGlenn: Well said. The whole Israel issue makes me uncomfortable. I think there are a lot of underhanded tactics on both sides, both on the battlefield and off it.
Hypatia: you've mentioned a couple of times that you're a libertarian. I have a post on my blog about positive and negative rights, and I'd love to have your opinion on it.
PS. He calls his daughter "little trunk?" Ewww....
I don't have all day to research this, but here's one such citation
ReplyDeleteAlso, there was the CAIR campaign against his nomination to the U.S. Institute of Peace or whatever.
Let's not overlook the Rovian implications of this war on Cole, and that is to create a wedge between Democrats and their Jewish base. And, of course, then there's the ugly symmetry with how it plays to the Republican evangelical base.
ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDeleteThe link to your blog goes to the blogspot start page... I'd be curious to read what you have to say...
This thread is going to be interesting. Glenn, to his credit is inclined to be more fair to Daniel Pipes than I would.
I for one am impressed that Juan Cole (and Glenn Greenwald) has the courage to publish his views under his real identity rather than hiding behind a pseudonym.
ReplyDeleteIt is a little more difficult to try and exact retribution on a Little Trunk or a Big Trunk when you disagree with their views or positions.
My money's on a secret cabal of Michigan graduate students trying to queer the deal and keep Cole at Ann Arbor....
ReplyDeleteWho are the savages?
ReplyDeleteThe suicide bombers and those who send and support them. Are you really unable to distinguish between the intentional murder, in the most purposefully gruesome way imaginable (bombs stuffed with screws, glass and shards of metal for maximum pain and gore), of innocent civilians, and military efforts to counter that, which unfortunately sometimes kills innocent civilians, EVEN IF at rare times the operation cuts close to the line of recklessness? One the one hand, you have Israelis cancelling operation after operation because of potential civilian casualties, and on the other hand, the terror groups SPECIFICALLY look for the largest grouping of civilians. Can you REALLY not see the difference? You should be ashamed.
I don't have all day to research this, but here's one such citation.
ReplyDeleteI'm virtually always opposed to disinviting speakers to college campuses because of their views and/or banning them from speaking at all, so assuming the facts in Kurtz's article are accurate, I would have opposed those efforts.
In terms of impact, there is a huge difference between trying to have have a speaker disinvited from an event, and trying to blacklist all professors who hold certain views. But the sentiments are similar and I oppose both.
To the Hidden Imam,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you had better read your history. The first recorded instance of what we would define today as terrorism was probably the sicarii. Look it up. I seem to recall an explosion in a hotel in Palestine in 1947 or 1948. There are no white hats, or yarmulkas, or agals in this mess. Never have been. And it certainly wasn't the imperial powers, like the British, or the French, or us.
Timothy McVeigh was a savage too, PR.
ReplyDeleteTimothy McVeigh was a savage too, PR.
ReplyDelete11:41 AM
I disagree. He was a human being, like you or I or any other, albeit misguided, but who among us has not been at one time, easily misled. His "deed" was savage. He was also a decorated combat veteran, I believe.
Demonization of the "enemy" as a strategy and tactic of warfare has a long historical tradition.
cynic librarian: The problem, as I see it, is that entire disciplines, largely in the humanities, have become extremely politicized and that it is difficult if not impossible for academics who dissent from the dominant political view to publish or flourish in the academy. I'm far less interested in various students complaints, than I am with the integrity of higher education's mission to encourage and allow free and open inquiry.
ReplyDeleteSo, my sympathy is far more with frustrated academics, than with students -- there is no doubt in my mind that many kids glom onto the anti-PC trope to whine about grades. (The other day Rush was interviewing some young lady who had claimed ideological discrimination in the grading of a paper she wrote, and then when she called back a few days later as Rush had asked her to do, she disappointed Rush by reporting that after the professor explained to her why her paper had been deficient, she agreed with his criticisms. Rush wanted to see the paper, and the young woman was very reluctant to send it to him, much less have it posted online.)
You can get a flavor for the issue as I see it from this summary of NAS Presidents. Dr. Stephen H. Balch's statements to the PA legislature. (I don't agree with Balch on all matters, but broadly he expresses my own concerns.)
Btw, I suppose I should disclose that, quite a few years ago, I was published in the NAS's journal.
I would expect Juan Cole's role in academia to be congruent with his role in the blog and news arenas.
ReplyDeleteI can't count the number of times that Informed Comment has simply served as the calm voice of reason while less-informed officials, pundits, and reporters fail to provide or even seek a context. That his humble blog is so well known (and evidently notorious in some circles) testifies to how far readers have had to go to find information lacking in the mainstream press.
He writes well and will deliver opinions on occasion, but he also answers criticism and corrects himself if convinced he is wrong. I find that refreshing.
His inclination to teach is irrepressible, which may irritate some readers, but it's hardly an argument against his deserving a prominent role in academia.
He's a well-informed, reasonable, sometimes opinionated, voice in a political minefield. He'll enrich any environment, whether he represents dissent or the consensus.
Education on the Middle East that is alive and contentious would be better for the students and better for the country. There's a lot more to learn about than what you can find in the Old Testament, and right now we're in it up to our necks.
In terms of impact, there is a huge difference between trying to have have a speaker disinvited from an event, and trying to blacklist all professors who hold certain views. But the sentiments are similar and I oppose both.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with opposing professors because of their views? If those views infect their teaching, and the impact on the students, then why shouldn't their views be relevant? If Middle Eastern departments are dominated by Edward Said's intellectual offspring, and students are now being shaped in that model, and there are many, if not most people, against that model, then why shouldn't people who care about the direction of universities campaign against someone who will only continue the status quo? Isn't it a person's right to freely speak? Let Yale decide after everyone's been heard.
Isn't it a person's right to freely speak? Let Yale decide after everyone's been heard.
ReplyDeleteMoron, nobody is contesting the RIGHT of the Powerlines and the NY SUNS of the world to oppose Cole's appointment. What is being contested is the McCarthyism of the REASONING behind the opposition.
Do you really not understand the difference between DISPUTING someone's right to express a view and disagreeing with the view itself?
Isn't the NAS that astroturf front group where all those hacks endorse each other? A big conservative circle jerk of hackery? Maybe their stuff doesn't get published because it's crap and bad scholarship. I bet John Lott gets a very high rating at NAS. Charles Murray, too.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that the move to purge liberals from academia is just a sham -- the motive is to purge liberals and liberal thought from any kind of influence whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteBingo!
Tell me again... who are the heirs to the Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist descension?
the hidden imam asks "What's wrong with opposing professors because of their views? If those views infect their teaching, and the impact on the students, then why shouldn't their views be relevant?"
ReplyDeleteThis could have been said by Horowitz. Opposing academic appointments on the grounds that the proposed appointee is academically deficient is perfectly legitimate. Opposing the appointment on the basis of the political views of the proposed appointee is nothing less than an assault on academic freedom.
hidden imam, aren't you espousing Horowitzism?
I was right...
ReplyDeleteNAS
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=16210
Whatever happened to the notion of the citizen scholar? What Horowitz et al. seem to advocate is the notion that the intelligentsia should be walled up in an Ivory Tower and the key thrown away--for liberal intellectuals, that is.
ReplyDeleteBut, of course, as the neocon/ne-Jacobin clan has learned well from Hitler, Stalin, and other authoritarians, you defeat the enemy by cutting its head off. Ergo, Stalin's massacre of intellectuals in Poland before the Communists took power there, etc. etc.
I hope Cole gets the appointment to Yale, or at least is not prevented by this absurdity. Despite being aware of the history, I am still confounded that our political system has a litmus test for support of Israel, without regard to Israel's policies or actions.
ReplyDeleteAsinistra: I doubt any politician would take on this issue if they hoped to get re-elected. I hope someone again asks Bush if he believes that chaos in the Middle East is a sign of the "end times". That answer could explain his entire presidency.
anon: I don't agree with every argument made by every NAS member, but their membership is not comprised just of far-right scholars. The problems they address are often the same as those socialist Richard Dawkins discusses in this review of a book criticizing the politicized academy, a book co-authored by the equally left-wing Alan Sokal.
ReplyDeleteIn his review of Sokal's book, Dawkins also recommends: Paul Gross and Normal Levitt’s Higher Superstition: the academic left and its quarrels with science (Johns Hopkins, 1994) . Gross is an NAS member.
“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information.”
ReplyDeleteHenry A. Wallace
Moron, nobody is contesting the RIGHT of the Powerlines and the NY SUNS of the world to oppose Cole's appointment. What is being contested is the McCarthyism of the REASONING behind the opposition.
ReplyDeleteWhat's with the name-calling? You sound like a five-year old, "Ralphie."
Anyway, on the substance, what I am questioning is the notion of the alleged "McCarthyism of the REASONING behind the opposition." If people see Cole as a biased, political hack, and wedded to a post-colonialist world-view, then that seems to me a perfectly valid reason to oppose him. Rolling back Saidism and reducing the blatant political hackery in Middle Eastern departments seems to me a worthy cause. And one might be forgiven for thinking that your efforts to stifle this dissent is itself "McCarthyism," to use a tired epithet.
What's wrong with the criticism of Cole is that it's based on lying about his positions and statements.
ReplyDelete12:11 PM
Everything from Horowitz, and the right, has that defect.
Paul Rosenberg: that you don't like the NAS's positions on affirmative action, and dislike some of their funding sources, does not reach the many issues of politicized disciplines that they address. I wrote for them; I'm not a racist, and the problems I identified in a multi-disciplinary seminar were real. (I wish my article was online, but it isn't.)
ReplyDeleteI think we are beginning to see that much of Hypatia's disillusionment with Bushco is a result of his being too much of a moderate, like when Milton Friedman called Nixon a "socialist".
ReplyDeleteBush a moderate! I should have put that in "quotes". I can't believe I wrote that!
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteOne of the most annoying victim movements around is the petulant and growing group, led by the odious David Horowitz, which incessantly whines that pro-Bush students on college campuses are treated very, very unfairly because their views are not praised by all that many people and sometimes are even harshly criticized.
As I've written about many times before, the examples of supposed victimhood almost never entail any actual repression of, or institutional punishment for, the expression of unpopular conservative views, but rather, are composed only of disagreement by other students and faculty members which make the right-wing students feel uncomfortable and unloved.
This is a very interesting topic.
My personal experience in masters poli sci work and in law school might be somewhat instructive.
In both programs, the professors were almost universally left of center, sometimes hard left of center. For example, one of my Poli Sci professors liked to hang FARC and Sandanista banners in his office. In law school, two of the three con law professors were ACLU attorneys and one of the property law professors spent a third or her course on the property rights of slave owners. The only conservative professor I recall was an ex prosecutor who taught criminal law and sponsored our chapter of the Federalist Society.
As you can imagine from our exchanges here, my professors and I had some very interesting and sometimes heated debates over the law and politics. My proposed masters thesis before I was called to active duty in the Army was on the Reagan Doctrine and my law review article was on how to enforce the Second Amendment.
However, for the most part, my leftist professors were also professional and respectful. I did experience a double standard compared to my liberal peers so far as verbal support from my professors, but I expected as much.
To the extent that Horowitz is whining about conservative students having to do verbal battle with their liberal professors where liberal students do not, he needs to get over it. By challenging our views and making us defend them with proofs, the liberal professors are doing us an immense favor. We leave school intellectually equipped to defend our arguments in the world at large. In contrast, by giving the liberal students a pass, the liberal professors are not doing them any favors. If this blog is any indication, many of the liberal graduates of our finest universities have no idea how to make and defend an argument with actual proof.
To the extent that liberal professors outside my personal experience acted unprofessionally by engaging in personal attacks on conservative students, they should be take to task.
My experience with liberal professors harming my grades based on my point of view is mixed. In my poli sci program, my liberal professors gave me straight As in a system where our identities were placed on our tests.
In my law school, we had blind grading of our tests. However, that only protects the person and not the view point. The only time I took issue with a grade is when a gay professor in a family law class asked the students whether gay "marriage" was a right guaranteed by the Constitution. I told him flatly no and cited the relevant Constitutional provisions and case law. He wasn't happy with that answer and gave me a C. Shame on him.
If professors harm the grades of their students based on viewpoint, they should be disciplined. For the most part, though, my law professors were professional about grading.
A vivid example illustrating their true agenda can be found in the blossoming "controversy" over what appears to be the imminent offer of a tenured professorship by Yale University to liberal Professor of Mideast Studies (and well-read blogger) Juan Cole, to teach at the Yale Center for International and Area Studies and in the Yale History Department. Many Bush supporters are arguing that Professor Cole espouses political views which apparently ought to be off-limits on college campuses, and there is thus a burgeoning movement to induce Yale to reconsider its decision. These efforts, of course, are coming from many of the same circles of sermoniziers who hold themselves out as defenders of academic freedom when they decry the oh-so-terrible reception which greets right-wing views on some campuses.
Where Horowitz does have a very good point is when he complains about the gross imbalance in viewpoints to the left and far left on our college faculty. The point should not be that the estimable Professor Cole should not be allowed on Yale because he is a hard left apologist for Arab terrorists, but rather why does Yale need yet another such leftist professor to add to its collection?
Does Yale have a single neocon professor or even a professor of any ideology which teaches neocon foreign policy in a neutral manner? I doubt it. Given that this approach to foreign policy has been dominant in 4 of the last 7 presidential terms, don't you think that it should be seriously studied? Even though the largely neocon Reagan Doctrine had just defeated the Soviet Empire when I was pursuing my poli sci MBA, there was a shocking lack of curiosity among the faculty as to exactly how that happened.
In law school, none of my ACLU professors bothered to teach textualism or original intent except to ridicule it in passing. You might think that con law professors might have a passing interest in the approaches which are being used in our Supreme Court and many of our federal courts of appeal.
For our universities to remain at all relevant to the real world, they have to address the real world. Whether they like it or not, this is a conservative country. They need to address conservative views in a neutral and constructive manner or bring in conservative professors who can.
My personal experience in masters poli sci work and in law school might be somewhat instructive.
ReplyDeleteIn both programs, the professors were almost universally left of center, sometimes hard left of center.
MILTON FRIEDMAN: Nixon was the most socialist of the presidents of the United States in the 20th century.
You people, like yourself and Hypatia are just warped. Your yardsticks and sense of position on the political spectrum are useless to the rest of us, and quite frankly, outmoded and anachronistic.
In law school, none of my ACLU professors bothered to teach textualism or original intent except to ridicule it in passing. You might think that con law professors might have a passing interest in the approaches which are being used in our Supreme Court and many of our federal courts of appeal.
ReplyDeleteAs well they should. No surprise you are a FedSoc zombie. (Intentional 1984 IngSoc ref.)
This is the beginning of a page on the problems with ideas of "Original Intent" of the founders, a conservative propaganda ploy much favored by libertarians.
This first segment is taken from A Process of Denial: Bork and Post-Modern Conservatism by James Boyle. A delightful review, it traces the pattern of intellectual development of Judge Bork through libertarianism and beyond to other foolish notions.
Original Intent:
The better known variant of originalism, and the one that Mr. Bork first adopted and held as recently as 1986, was the philosophy of original intent. The Constitution means what the Framers (or perhaps the Framers and ratifiers) meant it to. This is also the most influential version -- the judicial philosophy championed by recent Attornies General. But if the philosophy of original intent is the most popular version, it is also the easiest to blow out of the water. Listing the arguments against it is the kind of arduous, lengthy and repetitive task which Victorians believed suitable for the rehabilitation of convicts. I undertake it here in the hope of acquiring virtue.
First, the idea that the intention of the original author must govern the meaning of the text is simply not true as either a practical or a philosophical matter. Actually, in both law and life we use lots of different interpretive criteria to establish what something "means."
Second, even if original intent was the preferred method, there is strong historical evidence that the intention of the Framers was that their intentions should not bind future generations. Original intent tells us to obey the Framers and the Framers said, "our intention shouldn't govern."
Third, even if original intent wasn't philosophically and historically bankrupt, the records we do have of the Framer's original intent indicate that it is either contradictory or indeterminate. Sometimes both. Since the proponents of original intent argue that we must embrace their method or else admit that the Constitution could mean anything, it is bizarre to find that his method itself is no more than a judicial Rohrsach blot.
Fourth, in those few areas where original intent is clear, it is sometimes morally outrageous. Any protagonist of original intent must confront the question of whether or not, as a moral matter, we can responsibly allow the intentions of men, some of whom believed ardently in slavery and almost all of whom believed in the innate inferiority of women, to govern current constitutional interpretation.
Fifth, to adopt original intent as the supreme method of constitutional interpretation flies in the face of most of the Supreme Court's jurisprudence, the vast majority of scholarly writing, the opinions of most constitutional historians and, probably the majority of the American people. It also raises impossible questions of transition from our current constitutional arrangements. As Mr. Bork once put it, "[t]his Nation has grown up in ways that do not comport with the intentions of the people who wrote the Constitution -- the commerce clause is one example -- and it is simply too late to go back and tear that up. I cite to you the legal tender cases. These are extreme examples admittedly. Scholarship suggests that the Framers intended to prohibit paper money. Any judge who thought today he would go back to the original intent really ought to be accompanied by a guardian rather than be sitting on a bench."
To sum up, original intent is a philosophically incoherent method which appears to contradict the Framers own intentions. It is sometimes morally objectionable, sometimes indeterminate, flies in the face of precedent and scholarship and raises insuperable problems of practical implementation.
What's with the name-calling? You sound like a five-year old, "Ralphie."
ReplyDeleteYeah, Ralphie, don't you know that name-calling is solely the province of those (like hidden imam) who liberally toss about epithets like "anti-semite" in response to any dissent from Likud policies?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart: My personal experience in masters poli sci work and in law school might be somewhat instructive. In both programs, the professors were almost universally left of center, sometimes hard left of center.
???: MILTON FRIEDMAN: Nixon was the most socialist of the presidents of the United States in the 20th century.
You people, like yourself and Hypatia are just warped. Your yardsticks and sense of position on the political spectrum are useless to the rest of us, and quite frankly, outmoded and anachronistic.
1) I know exactly where I am on the political spectrum - Libertarian on most domestic issues and a hawk on foreign policy. That combination of views is shared by maybe 20% of the population. I never claimed to be part of the heard.
2) One of the more accurate tests for where you fall ideologically is the World's Smallest Political Quiz used as a recruiting tool by the libertarians. Try it.
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
3) You are welcome to link to any poll or study which shows that the political opinions of college faculty match those or are to the right of the plurality of the American people. Like the press, faculty are far to the left of the people.
4) Friedman is absolutely right about Nixon being a socialist. Tricky Dick put the Great Society into effect, gave us the EPA, high tax rates, and wage and price controls. A truly awful president even before you get to his criminality.
From Bart at 12:32PM:
ReplyDelete"In law school, none of my ACLU professors bothered to teach textualism or original intent except to ridicule it in passing."
Such interpretations and doctrines deserve *only* ridicule, alongside their forebear The Divine Right of Kings. Although given Bart's stated preferences, I'm sure he holds the Divine Right as sacred and applicable as well.
"For our universities to remain at all relevant to the real world, they have to address the real world. Whether they like it or not, this is a conservative country. They need to address conservative views in a neutral and constructive manner or bring in conservative professors who can."
I completely agree our universities MUST prepare their students for the real world; hence it being vital to keep Horowitz and his sad lot from further influencing both faculty and ciriculum.
I would point out to Bart this is the United States of America, NOT the Conservative States of America. There is a plurality of opinions and ideals at work in this country, very few of them fitting into the neat boxes of 'liberal' or 'conservative'; indeed, thanks to the Republican Party itself and its proxies over the past 30+ years, the very term 'conservative' has lost all traditional meaning and influence.
Students need to be taught how to think critically and independently in today's world; they don't get that if orthodoxy from either side (and I have yet to see anything resembling Horowitz from the left-side of the dial) is essentially forced down their throats.
"The point should not be that the estimable Professor Cole should not be allowed on Yale because he is a hard left apologist for Arab terrorists, but rather why does Yale need yet another such leftist professor to add to its collection?"
I suggest, strongly, you actually go through Professor Cole's CV, his list of publications, and read through his articles (not his weblog alone) before casting him as a 'leftist'. From my own readings, he's firmly grounded in the history and current circumstances of the regions he specializes in, and as such better able than most to foresee the challenges the Bush Administration's own stances and policies will encounter. This makes him no more a leftist than Horowitz; it simply means he's better informed.
From the Institute for Democracy Studies:
ReplyDeleteTHE FEDERALIST SOCIETY AND THE CHALLENGE TO A DEMOCRATIC JURISPRUDENCE
"[S]o much of the [Federalist] Society's leadership consists of active politicians and others whose slouching towards extremism is self-proclaimed."[1]
-- Former American Bar Association President, Jerome Shestack
Federalist Society --- KKK in suits
Slouching Towards Extremism, PDF
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI was right...
NAS
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=16210
The real NAS (the long-standing and honourable National Academy of Sciences) should sue them for infringing on their reputiation (ala the World Wildlife Fund and the World Wrestling Federation, which resulted in the "wrestlers" becoming the WWE).
Cheers,
In my engineering program at Carnegie-Mellon, we really felt that if only our faculty had more conservatives, then we'd really outperform all those MIT grads. If only we had selected the faculty by their political views, rather than on their experience in, say, engineering, then we'd really be improving our faculty. We could use some of that tuition money to do background checks to see if they're registered democrats or if they were in any political clubs in college, rather than paying for better computers.
ReplyDeleteOh wait, that's totally stupid. And isn't that the right's argument against affirmative action? So they're pro-affirmative action based on political affiliation but against affirmative action when used to hire representative numbers of minorities? To me, that sounds like "it's ok to hire blacks, if they're republicans."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart: In law school, none of my ACLU professors bothered to teach textualism or original intent except to ridicule it in passing. You might think that con law professors might have a passing interest in the approaches which are being used in our Supreme Court and many of our federal courts of appeal.
As well they should. No surprise you are a FedSoc zombie. (Intentional 1984 IngSoc ref.)
Exhibit A on how the liberal students who remain unchallenged by liberal professors have no idea how to make an argument supported by proof. The ad hominem argument seems to be all of which they are capable. Sad.
This is the beginning of a page on the problems with ideas of "Original Intent" of the founders, a conservative propaganda ploy much favored by libertarians.
This first segment is taken from A Process of Denial: Bork and Post-Modern Conservatism by James Boyle. A delightful review, it traces the pattern of intellectual development of Judge Bork through libertarianism and beyond to other foolish notions.
Oooh, he can cut and paste. OK, since you are incapable of argument, I will address Mr. Boyle's snotty tirade.
Original Intent:
The better known variant of originalism, and the one that Mr. Bork first adopted and held as recently as 1986, was the philosophy of original intent. The Constitution means what the Framers (or perhaps the Framers and ratifiers) meant it to. This is also the most influential version -- the judicial philosophy championed by recent Attornies General.
This is an improvement over my ACLU professors. Mr. Boyle admits that this approach is widely used in the real world.
But if the philosophy of original intent is the most popular version, it is also the easiest to blow out of the water. Listing the arguments against it is the kind of arduous, lengthy and repetitive task which Victorians believed suitable for the rehabilitation of convicts. I undertake it here in the hope of acquiring virtue.
Let's see if Mr. Boyle can back up his snotty ridicule of a man who intellectually dwarfs him.
First, the idea that the intention of the original author must govern the meaning of the text is simply not true as either a practical or a philosophical matter. Actually, in both law and life we use lots of different interpretive criteria to establish what something "means."
The fact that others use other means does not mean that the use of original intent is not correct.
BTW, I am a textualist who thinks that original intent should only be used as a last resort. Scalia has offered a much more effective critique of pitfalls of devining original intent or legislative intent.
Second, even if original intent was the preferred method, there is strong historical evidence that the intention of the Framers was that their intentions should not bind future generations. Original intent tells us to obey the Framers and the Framers said, "our intention shouldn't govern."
Is there a source for this quote? This argument fails for lack of logic. The Constitution has no purpose if the drafters did not mean it to be binding on future generations.
Third, even if original intent wasn't philosophically and historically bankrupt, the records we do have of the Framer's original intent indicate that it is either contradictory or indeterminate.
This is Scalia's argument. However, the counter argument is that the Framers were actually in agreement on many provisions.
Fourth, in those few areas where original intent is clear, it is sometimes morally outrageous. Any protagonist of original intent must confront the question of whether or not, as a moral matter, we can responsibly allow the intentions of men, some of whom believed ardently in slavery and almost all of whom believed in the innate inferiority of women, to govern current constitutional interpretation.
Tough luck if you don't agree with the Constitution. If you want to change the Constitution, amend it.
Fifth, to adopt original intent as the supreme method of constitutional interpretation flies in the face of most of the Supreme Court's jurisprudence, the vast majority of scholarly writing, the opinions of most constitutional historians and, probably the majority of the American people.
To start, this is not an argument, it is a citation to majority opinion. The majority is not always correct. Indeed, a primary purpose of the Constitution is to limit majority rule and protect minorities.
It also raises impossible questions of transition from our current constitutional arrangements. As Mr. Bork once put it, "[t]his Nation has grown up in ways that do not comport with the intentions of the people who wrote the Constitution -- the commerce clause is one example -- and it is simply too late to go back and tear that up. I cite to you the legal tender cases. These are extreme examples admittedly. Scholarship suggests that the Framers intended to prohibit paper money. Any judge who thought today he would go back to the original intent really ought to be accompanied by a guardian rather than be sitting on a bench."
Now we get to the author's true motive - terror that extra-constitutional opinions which he favors would be overturned.
BTW, the paper currency argument is a strawman which is not advances by any original intent proponents of which I am aware.
4) Friedman is absolutely right about Nixon being a socialist. Tricky Dick put the Great Society into effect, gave us the EPA, high tax rates, and wage and price controls. A truly awful president even before you get to his criminality.
ReplyDeleteI gotta hand it to ya, Bart. At least you are up front about being a wingnut loon. I suppose you think Ike was a commie too, like any good John Bircher!
Document #1147; November 8, 1954
To Edgar Newton Eisenhower
Series: EM, AWF, Name Series ; Category: Personal and confidential
The Papers of Dwight David Eisenhower, Volume XV - The Presidency: The Middle Way
Part VI: Crises Abroad, Party Problems at Home; September 1954 to December 1954
Chapter 13: "A new phase of political experience"
I think that such answer as I can give to your letter of November first will be arranged in reverse order--at least I shall comment first on your final paragraph.
You keep harping on the Constitution; I should like to point out that the meaning of the Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is. Consequently no powers are exercised by the Federal government except where such exercise is approved by the Supreme Court (lawyers) of the land.2
I admit that the Supreme Court has in the past made certain decisions in this general field that have been astonishing to me. A recent case in point was the decision in the Phillips case.3 Others, and older ones, involved "interstate commerce."4 But until some future Supreme Court decision denies the right and responsibility of the Federal government to do certain things, you cannot possibly remove them from the political activities of the Federal government.
Now it is true that I believe this country is following a dangerous trend when it permits too great a degree of centralization of governmental functions. I oppose this--in some instances the fight is a rather desperate one. But to attain any success it is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon "moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas.5 Their number is negligible and they are stupid.
To say, therefore, that in some instances the policies of this Administration have not been radically changed from those of the last is perfectly true.6 Both Administrations levied taxes, both maintained military establishments, customs officials, and so on.
But in all governmental fields of action a combination of purpose, procedure and objectives must be considered if you are to get a true evaluation of the relative merits.
You say that the foreign policy of the two Administrations is the same. I suppose that even the most violent critic would agree that it is well for us to have friends in the world, to encourage them to oppose communism both in its external form and in its internal manifestations, to promote trade in the world that would be mutually profitable between us and our friends (and it must be mutually profitable or it will dry up), and to attempt the promotion of peace in the world, negotiating from a position of moral, intellectual, economic and military strength.
No matter what the party is in power, it must perforce follow a program that is related to these general purposes and aspirations. But the great difference is in how it is done and, particularly, in the results achieved.
A year ago last January we were in imminent danger of losing Iran, and sixty percent of the known oil reserves of the world.7 You may have forgotten this. Lots of people have. But there has been no greater threat that has in recent years overhung the free world. That threat has been largely, if not totally, removed. I could name at least a half dozen other spots of the same character.
This being true, how can anyone be so unaware of what is happening as to say that this Administration has conducted foreign affairs under the same policies as did the former Administration? As a matter of fact, if you will press any individual who brings to you all these strictures and comments, I venture that your experience will be the same as mine. That experience is that these individuals have no idea of what the "foreign policy" of the previous Administration was and what the present one is. They have heard certain slogans, such as "give away programs." They have no slightest idea as to what has been the effect of these programs in sustaining American security and prosperity. Moreover, they have no idea whatsoever as to comparative size of them now as compared to even two or three years ago.
You say that these critics also complain about the continuance of "controls," presumably over our economy. There is nothing in your letter that shows such complete ignorance as to what has actually happened as does this term. When we came into office there were Federal controls exercised over prices, wages, rents, as well as over the allocation and use of raw materials. The first thing this Administration did was to set about the elimination of those controls. This it did amid the most dire predictions of disaster, "run away" inflation, and so on and so on. We were proved right, but I must say that if the people of the United States do not even remember what took place, one is almost tempted to regret the agony of study, analysis and decision that was then our daily ration.
You also talk about "bad political advice" I am getting. I always assumed that lawyers attempted accuracy in their statements. How do you know that I am getting any political advice? Next, if I do get political advice, how do you know that it is not weighted in the direction that you seem to think it should be--although I am tempted at times to believe that you are just thrashing around rather than thinking anything through to a definite conclusion? So how can you say I am getting "bad" advice; why don't you just assume I am stupid, trying to wreck the nation, and leave our Constitution in tatters?
I assure you that you have more reason, based on sixty-four years of contact, to say this than you do to make the bland assumption that I am surrounded by a group of Machiavellian characters who are seeking the downfall of the United States and the ascendancy of socialism and communism in the world. Incidentally, I notice that everybody seems to be a great Constitutionalist until his idea of what the Constitution ought to do is violated--then he suddenly becomes very strong for amendments or some peculiar and individualistic interpretation of his own.
Finally, I must assure you again that I am delighted to get your own honest criticisms, particularly if you will only take the trouble to lay down the facts on which you reach what seem to me to be some remarkable conclusions. But the mere repetition of aphorisms and political slogans and newspaper headlines leaves me cold.
I am sorry you are not going to be at Abilene.8 It would be easier to tell you these things than to write them--except that by this method I hope to make you do a little thinking rather than devote yourself just to the winning of a noisy argument. As ever
P.S. I attach a paragraph and a cartoon that came to me in the same mail as did your letter. At least it represents a different viewpoint. Incidentally, it comes from one of the most successful businessmen in the nation.9
THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY AND THE CHALLENGE TO A DEMOCRATIC JURISPRUDENCE
ReplyDelete"[S]o much of the [Federalist] Society's leadership consists of active politicians and others whose slouching towards extremism is self-proclaimed."[1]
-- Former American Bar Association President, Jerome Shestack
Exhibit B of how liberals who become attorneys who cannot make an argument against a proposition use the ad hominem attack.
Some troll wrote:
ReplyDeleteIn both programs, the professors were almost universally left of center, sometimes hard left of center. For example, one of my Poli Sci professors liked to hang FARC and Sandanista banners in his office....
Imagine. A poli sci prof that is interested in politics. Will wonders ever cease?
... In law school, two of the three con law professors were ACLU attorneys ...
Hmmm. Constitutional lawyers that are interested in civil rights. You know, civil rights for all Americans, like the KKK and Nazis, alongside of communists and Wiccans, as long as they are simply exercising their civil rights on a free society.
... and one of the property law professors spent a third or her course on the property rights of slave owners.
I suspect you're lying here, troll. But nonetheless, slavery as a property rights issue might be a rather interesting subject. We didn't have even a mention of slavery, though.
But we did have dear ol' Mr. John Yoo as a prof. Imagine that, those damn lefty faculty.
Cheers,
Bart,
ReplyDeleteYou are a strawman. You are probably a tin man and cowardly pussycat as well. Go see the Wizard of Oz. He's the tiny little munchkin behind the curtain.
Arne L. writes:The real NAS (the long-standing and honourable National Academy of Sciences) should sue them for infringing on their reputiation
ReplyDeleteDoubtful, because one of the highest profile members of the National Academy of Sciences, Paul Gross, is also a member of the National Association of Scholars. Indeed, Gross has defended the former in a smackdown to Bill O'Reilly.
Intelligent Design idiots are very unhappy with the National Association of Scholars, because the scientist members have made sure that ID proponents are not able to hijack the group to argue that anti-ID opinion is an example of heinous PC forces run amok. Gross is a prominet ID critic who has co-authored a very good book on the subject.
Shorter Bart On Fox with guest host Michele Malkin: When Liberals Attack!
ReplyDeleteTell it to DJ Alan Berg. But you can't. He's dead.
What a surprise! The right is hypocritical....:/
ReplyDeletePaul rosenberg writes: Shaping the classics around language, humanities around the classics, higher education around the humanities, and the levers of power around higher education, ensured a perpetuation of class power far above and beyond the mere inheritance of wealth, which could easily be breached by those with "new money."
ReplyDeleteThis POV is, indeed, part of the problem in the academy. In many disciplines it is airily claimed that everything is political, so we are going to be political the "correct way."
This position is corrosive of the mission of higher education. It has led to absurd attacks on science as a method of ascertaining reality, because empiricism, doncha know, is about naught except white males trying to privilege their way of knowing and yadda, yadda. Hence the withering attacks on all this pernicious nonsense from left-wingers like Dawkins and Sokal, and more libertarian sicentists like Gross. They disagree on much, but are united in their disdain for the politicized crap pervading sectors of the humanities.
Speaking of the Wizard of Oz....Watching Bart and the conservatards melting down like the Wicked Witch of the West reminds me of something...
ReplyDeleteOn February 20, 1970, Judge Hoffman sentenced the five members of the Chicago Seven found guilty by the jury. Each defendant made a statement before sentence was imposed. David Dellinger told Hoffman that he was "a man who had too much power over too many people for too many years," but that he admired his "spunk." Rennie Davis announced that when he got out of prison he intended to "move next door to [prosecutor] Tom Foran, and bring his sons and daughter into the revolution." Tom Hayden offered the opinion that "we would hardly have been notorious characters if they left us alone on the streets of Chicago," but instead "we became the architects, the masterminds, and the geniuses of a conspiracy to overthrow the government-- we were invented." Abbie Hoffman recommended that the judge try LSD: "I know a good dealer in Florida [where the judge was soon to head for a vacation]; I could fix you up." Jerry Rubin offered the judge a copy of his new book Do It! with an inscription inside: "Julius, you radicalized more young people than we ever could. You're the country's top Yippie." After listening to each defendant give his statement, Judge Hoffman sentenced each defendant to five years' imprisonment plus a $5,000 fine.
The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals reversed all convictions on November 21, 1972. The appellate court based its decision on the refusal to allow inquiry into the cultural biases of potential jurors during voir dire as well as Judge Hoffman's "deprecatory and often antagonistic attitude toward the defense." The court also noted that it was determined after appellate argument that the F. B. I, with the knowledge and complicity of Judge Hoffman and prosecutors, had bugged the offices of the Chicago defense attorneys. The Court of Appeals panel said that it had "little doubt but that the wrongdoing of F. B. I. agents would have required reversal of the convictions on the substantive charges."
All seven Chicago police officers charged with violating the civil rights of demonstrators were acquitted. Charges against an eighth officer were dismissed. Richard Shultz explained the verdicts by observing, "The people who sit on juries in this city are just not ready to convict a Chicago policeman."
There is no simple "yes" or "no" answer to the question of whether the Chicago defendants intended to incite a riot in Chicago in 1968. Abbie Hoffman said, "I don't know whether I'm innocent or I'm guilty." The reason for the confusion--as Norman Mailer pointed out--was that the alleged conspirators "understood that you didn't have to attack the fortress anymore." All they had to do was "surround it, make faces at the people inside and let them have nervous breakdowns and destroy themselves."
"libertarian sicentists"
ReplyDeleteDo you read what you write?
It's hilarious!
As I've said, I do not agree with every member of the NAS, and specifically do not embrace their endorsement of the Academic Bill of Rights, which I have always opposed.
ReplyDeleteHowever, their journal, Academic Questions, frequently contains accurate and insightful criticisms of the academy. The members, and the contributors to AQ, are not monolithic, and come from across the political spectrum.
anon writes: "libertarian sicentists"
ReplyDeleteDo you read what you write?
You left the word "more" out. Sokal and Dawkins are leftists; Gross is one of the "more libertarian" scientists who shares with Sokal and Dawkins disdain for aspects of the politicized humanties.
They all see it is pernicous nonsense. Do read Dawkins book review, which I linked to above. It is quite funny, and you can see why he is "on the same side" as conservative/libertarian academics like Gross.
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteDoubtful, because one of the highest profile members of the National Academy of Sciences, Paul Gross, is also a member of the National Association of Scholars.
Well and fine, but does Gross get to speak for the Academy?
The Mational Association of Scholars may not be ID-wacko infested, but it's hardly the august NAS (not to mention, its mission is a bit more political and quite a bit less scientific than is that of the real NAS; reflected in the name, for one). Not to mention, you can't just pay your dues and join the NAS, so even if the National Association of Scholars is not some RW partisan interest group (which is by no means conceded), it's hardly of the same stature (nor position) as the federally instituted and recognised NAS.
Cheers,
Arne L. writes:
ReplyDeleteWell and fine, but does Gross get to speak for the Academy?
I'm not sure, but I think he actually has, wrt the ID issue. He's been very public on that subject, and may have at some points been representing the Academy, but I wouldn't swear to it.
its mission is a bit more political and quite a bit less scientific than is that of the real NAS; reflected in the name, for one). Not to mention, you can't just pay your dues and join the NAS,
That's all true, but you really think it is so awful that both organizations share the same initials? Was it some conspiracy?
The NAS (Scholars) is not, as you note, per se about science; that would be a subset of its arguments about the academy.
Actually calling Nixon a socialist is kind of defensible. I too remember wage-price controls. But the fact that a Democrat balanced the budget while the Republicans have been overseeing record deficits proves that our political labels are completely outmoded.
ReplyDeletePaul Rosenberg writes: But this is simply how the history of academic disciplines unfolds. Conservatives such as the NAS (yes, I know it has a sprinklng of liberals and moderates, I'm characterizing its agenda, not its entire membership) simply white out the part of this history that moves in a rightward or status-quo direction, painting that sort of politics as "not political" and focus exclusively on moves in a leftward or status-quo challenging direction, and paint that as "politicizing" a field which allegedly wasn't like that "in the good old days."...Well, the Trent Lott school of academic history just doesn't fly in the real world. Academics has always been political, and always will be.
ReplyDeleteI submit that it is possible to study English literature in a humanstic context in which politics is not particularly present. I don’t think doing so is to move society in a “rightward” or “status quo” direction; it is possible to learn what is human, and what is fine writing, without the enterprise being political in any partisan, left v. right, sense.
You operate from a premise I, and most NAS members, do not accept. Not every discipline has always been political, and arguments to the contrary have been made in large part to buttress grossly politicizing them now.
Actually calling Nixon a socialist is kind of defensible.
ReplyDeleteCalling Nixon a socialist is as defensible as calling Eisenhower a commie, and the John Birchers did just that. It's wingnut lunacy in either case.
You left the word "more" out.
ReplyDeleteGood Lord! No! We don't need more libertarian sicentists[sic]! One or twoo is MORE than enough!
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but I think he [Gross] actually has, wrt the ID issue.
Does he get to speak authoritatively for the NAS on any subject without their approval or imprimatur? I think the answer is "no". But feel free to correct me if I'm guessing wrong.
The NAS (Scholars) is not, as you note, per se about science; that would be a subset of its arguments about the academy.
Huh?
Cheers,
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteThat's all true, but you really think it is so awful that both organizations share the same initials? Was it some conspiracy?
There is perhaps some confusion. It may even be intentional. And it certainly isn't the National Academy of Sciences (seven score years and going strong) that is poaching on the sterling reputation of the National Association of Scholars. Do you really think that the National Association of Scholars took that vapid name to make clear their charter and mission?!?!? What they're on about is hardly 'obvious' from that particular (and generic) name.....
Cheers,
Hypatia is a self-described libertarian, huh?
ReplyDeleteLibertarian scientists make me think of Scientologists.
BTW, I am a textualist who thinks that original intent should only be used as a last resort. Scalia has offered a much more effective critique of pitfalls of devining original intent or legislative intent.
Second, even if original intent was the preferred method, there is strong historical evidence that the intention of the Framers was that their intentions should not bind future generations. Original intent tells us to obey the Framers and the Framers said, "our intention shouldn't govern."
Is there a source for this quote? This argument fails for lack of logic. The Constitution has no purpose if the drafters did not mean it to be binding on future generations.
Bart, you claim to be an attorney.
As an attorney you should agree that as a legal instrument the constitution is a bit vague and ambiguous about a great many things. Perhaps by design, it was intended to be left open to the interpretation of future generations. As Jefferson himself and other framers noted in their writings. I can only assume you are a FedSoc hack and not much of a scholar or a litigator. The process for amending the constitution is a bit unwieldly, again by design, I would suggest. It is not something intended to be done lightly or regularly. Interpreting it in light of progress and scientific advancement is required.
Furthermore,
ReplyDeleteThat fact this cretin was, and that total embarassment Scalia still is, and those two new FedSoc slimeballs are on the court is an national embarassment and disgrace, as you are, Bart. An insult to America and a blot on any branch of the service whose uniform you slithered into.
...If we have been careful in our choice of profession, we are even allowed to dress up in public. Look at RuPaul, say. Look at Oliver North testifying in his cool Marine threads. Or look at William Hubbs Rehnquist in his black robe with fat gold stripes so everybody will know he’s The Biggest Justice of Them All.
But underneath that robe hides the same little scamp, Billy Rehnquist, who used to run around the neighborhood terrorizing minority voters forty years ago.
Return with me now to those innocent days of yesteryear.
It is election day in November of 1962. We are in Phoenix, Arizona, where a young former Supreme Court clerk is doing his unlevel best to see that Barry Goldwater is elected president. The young man, William H. Rehnquist, Esq., has been director of “ballot security” operations for the local Republican Party since 1958. On this day he is the sole Republican official at a polling station in south Phoenix, which is overwhelmingly African-American, Hispanic, and Democratic.
On that same day in Phoenix another young lawyer, James J. Brosnahan, is sitting in the office of the United States Attorney in Phoenix. Mr. Brosnahan, a graduate of Harvard Law School, is an assistant U.S. attorney.
Complaints of voter harassment are pouring in from precincts in south Phoenix. Republican challengers are said to be breaking the federal law which makes it a crime to “intimidate, threaten, or coerce . . . for the purpose of interfering with the right to vote.”
Mr. Brosnahan is dispatched, along with an FBI agent, to investigate these charges of voter intimidation. Mr. Broshahan’s sworn testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1986 follows:
“The complaints we received alleged in various forms that the Republican challengers were aggressively challenging many voters without having a basis for that challenge . . .
“Based on my interviews with others, polling officials, and my fellow assistant U.S. attorneys, it was my opinion in 1962 that the challenging effort was designed to reduce the number of black and Hispanic voters by confrontation and intimidation . . .
“When we arrived, the situation was tense. At that precinct I saw William Rehnquist, who was serving as the only Republican challenger (emphasis added). The FBI agent and I both showed our identifications to those concerned, including Mr. Rehnquist . . . The complaints did involve Mr. Rehnquist’s conduct. Our arrival and the showing of our identifications had a quieting effect on the situation and after interviewing several witnesses, we left. Criminal prosecution was declined as a matter of prosecutorial discretion . . .
“I have read the testimony and letter supplied by Justice Designate William Rehnquist to this committee in 1971 . . . He describes his role in the early 1960s as trying to arbitrate disputes at polling places. That is not what Mr. Rehnquist was doing when I saw him on Election Day in 1962.
“At page 491 of the 1971 Record in his letter, William Rehnquist stated: ‘In none of those years did I personally engage in challenging the qualifications of any voters.’ This does not comport with my recollection of the events I witnessed in 1962 when Mr. Rehnquist did serve as a challenger.”
HiddenImam said:
ReplyDeleteBe careful of those who allegedly limit their criticism to Likud. While that may be the case some of the time, in reality, most of that criticism is really aimed at the state of Israel itself, its legitimacy, and its narrative of events, and is conveniently packaged as Likud criticism.
You sound like someone with a personal involvement in the struggle. I'm sure whatever your involvement has been has given you reason to fear such things, but your closeness to the situation might be making you more fearful than you need be. There is no way a majority of Americans will ever challenge the right of Israel to exist, or adopt policies that favor those who do. If you learn to accept that as reality, it might make you more open to the criticisms many Americans have of our close affiliation with Israel. Israel need not fear abandonment.
That said, you have to understand that Americans are just not as intimately involved as those who live there, (or have loved ones there) and have the ability to maintain a position that addresses needs and demands of both sides. America has reached a point where we do have a stake in how the conflict resolves itself, and our self-interest will trump any loyalty to either side. America is not a Jewish majority state, and we will not continue to take positions that put us in jeopardy to aid a small state on the other side of the world. No state would do that, and any state that asks that of another is just dreaming.
If I were personally involved in the ME, I don't pretend I'd be able to be objective. If you told me I had to compromise, I'd probably accuse you of being unfair. If you told me to settle my differences with people who'd killed my loved ones, I'd accuse you of being immoral. But thats the advantage you would have by being uninvolved in the fight. It allows you that ability. Even if it makes my blood boil that you can be so callous in the face of my personal loss. That's just the way things are.
It's reached a point where we see that we have to make moves that have our best inetest in mind. Attacking countries in the ME that Israel feels threatened by will just make things worse for everybody. We just don't have the power to keep Israel safe if we keep making enemies there. The best thing for everybody is to be more thoughtful of the attitudes of all involved. It will do more for Israel to relieve some of the opression of the masses in the autocracies there, but this can only be done through diplomatic means. More war will bring the viloence to our door, sure as shit. Bush has shown he doesn't have what it takes to manage a war effort successfully. Probaly a good thing in the end. But it's time to treat all the parties there as equals. This will of course continue to piss off those inimately involved, but Imam's fear that we will abandon Israel is misplaced. That just won't happen. I assume its that fear that makes you feel it necessary to challenge those who challenge our attachment to Israel, but America's developing interest in freeing itself from a struggle that threatens our security is just plain poltical reality that you and anyone close to the situation will have to get used to.
I have no fear of being labelled anti-semitic if I ask my govt to put our interests ahead of those of any other state. Anybody who claims Americans who question our relationship with Israel are being anti-semitic is simply wrong, and it's wearing thin. It's pure tactical politics, and Americans are too smart to get conned by it. I foresee a willingness on the part of the vast majority of Americans to ignore these charges in the future, and see them for what they are--a continuing attempt to keep America tetherd to Israel in ways that are against our best interest.
Are all Israelis who question the hard-liners in the Likud are anti-semitic, self-hating Jews?
ReplyDeleteI am very happy for Juan. I had the good fortune to make acquintance with him and to be able to do a video interview with him concerning a range of topics including his harassment at the hands of the neocons.
ReplyDeleteIf you are interested, the interview is here:
http://RealityBasedTV.com
Of course, it would have been nice if he were going to Harvard instead (school rivalry dies hard) :-)
Dear Mr. Lederman,
ReplyDeleteI must say I was very moved by your response to me, especially because it appears I was right to think highly enough of you to think it out of character that you would mischaracterize my name in a dismissive way to suggest I was blind to reality.
I am aware of the fact that it is understandable, even perhaps inevitable, that those who have fought long principled wars may eventually become somewhat dispirited when so many battles of conscience are lost and the general "state of things", over time, may have become worse rather than better in the way that the intellectual warriors had originally hoped for.
I urge you (smile)to take direction from the faction who would like you to err on the "heated" and "passionate" side so that you may become a hero to a whole new generation of principled warriors.
Having become somewhat suspicious lately, I question the motives of those who are urging you to write dispassionately at a time in which it may actually be the "death of outrage" on the part of so many citizens that has allowed the present environment to creep up on this country and to flourish.
When the Wars on Injustice, Hypocrisy, Corruption in High Places and Violation of the True Spirit of the Constitution are formally declared, I am counting on you to be one of the most passionate "prosecutors" who speaks to the jury of public opinion.
-Eyes Wide Open (although I admit sometimes I have to shut not only my eyes but my heart and my mind to get through the day without wanting to put my head in an oven :)
PS. Could you comment on your reaction to Carl Bernstein's article calling for Watergate- type Senate Hearings into a laundry list of aspects of the Bush Presidency?
PPS. I don't quite feel comfortable calling you Marty although I appreciate your invitation to do so.
I will have to analzye why I felt comfortable calling Glenn by his first name after the very first time I read a post by him on this blog. I think it's because something deep within me identified him as a "long lost friend" although I had never before even heard of him.
Finally, thank you for caring enough about a stranger's feelings to take the time to respond in the manner you did.
As an American Jew not particular fond of Likud or Neocons....
ReplyDeleteI am Spartacus!
That said, there are amongst us liberals groups that would use identical methods to keep liberals toeing the line, the bogus line being at times the Lieberman-we-have-to-support-the-President, or the faux-liberal-line that being supportive of fathers is anti-feminist.
It is okay to have a big tent. It is okay to suggest someone find a different tent. It is not okay to smear people to enlarge your position in the tent.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteI hope your desire for divergent views holds true in more than law and poli sci. For instance, few economics depts and business schools have liberal profs. So shouldn't they hire more of those?
That said, there are amongst us liberals groups that would use identical methods to keep liberals toeing the line, the bogus line being at times the Lieberman-we-have-to-support-the-President, or the faux-liberal-line that being supportive of fathers is anti-feminist.
ReplyDeleteIt is okay to have a big tent. It is okay to suggest someone find a different tent. It is not okay to smear people to enlarge your position in the tent.
Lieberman isn't a liberal. He's a social conservative (and a neo-con hawk) who happens to be a Democrat.
As to the rest of your beef, it's not really relevant. Come to think of it, neither is any of it.
Among other wanky tidbits we have this from H.I. (can we just call you "Hi"?)
ReplyDeleteCole does see Israel as the villainous, colonialist, threat to the Arab people...
To which I say: if true, so what?
Harbouring such a belief about the state of Israel is not evidence of anti-semetism. In other words, one can see Israel as a "villainous, colonialist...threat to the Arab people" and still dig Jews. I know I do!
Cole's claims to being an expert on the Middle East are about as persuasive as Ward Churchill's claims to being an Indian chief.
ReplyDeletePaul Rosenberg:
ReplyDelete"Just Trying To Answer Frank Zappa's Question 'Who Are The Brain Police?'"
Heh. That is the crux of the biscuit, isn't it? :-)
Equating attacks on Daniel Pipes' views with infringement of his academic freedom -- that's a real winning argument.
ReplyDeletePipes the Younger is, of course, the worst enemy of academic freedom other than Horowitz himself, as the founder of the Likudnik blacklist "Campus Watch" (
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20021125/mcneil)
It's exceedingly generous of universities to extend an academic forum to right-wing demagogues who don't believe in free exchange of ideas.
The Horowitzes, Coulters, and Pipeses of this country receive far more academic freedom than they deserve.
"McQ"? Bruce McQuain, eh? Blast from the past; he was a "correspondent" on a listgroup I was on a decade or so ago. Still hasn't changed his stripes, IC. I'll have to trot out some of his old doozies some time and embarrass him (if he's capable of it).
ReplyDeleteCheers,
Naturally when I read Glenn's fine post, I rushed right over to the Volokh Conspiracy to see what Eugene Volokh and Orin Kerr (who, much to the relief of all of us who have come to see them as such leaders in the defense of freedom of expression of ideas, somehow have managed to miraculously survive the biggest disaster of the Twenty First Century: the failure of every blog, magazine, newspaper and local shopper to carry as a logo on its front page reproductions of the Danish cartoons) had to say about the controversy surrounding Yale's imminent offer to Juan Cole to be a Professor there.
ReplyDeleteThey must be busy grading papers because they haven't had time to get to this important issue yet, although I did see a rather lengthy post by Eugene Volokh in which he defended, complete with dictionary definitions, the President's choice of words in using the phrase "I am the decider" (whew, glad that was clarified as it had me up nights worrying).
I also saw an interesting post by the tireless David Bernstein that relates directly to Glenn's post about Juan Cole and will include that in my next post.
David Berstein of VC writes:
ReplyDeleteFrankly, when libertarians start promoting the Middle East policy views of individuals who don't even pretend to be libertarians, and who are friendly with the likes of Hamas, I begin to wonder whether it is really libertarian foreign policy perspective, rather than simply anti-Israel animus, that is motivating them.
Giving credit to eminem and his "Will the real Slim Shady please stand up", I am hugely relieved that I am not one of those phony libertarians who agrees with the libertarian foreign policy views of suspicious
someones "who don't even pretend to be libertarians". Mr. Berstein has certainly proven his case that the phony "real" libertarians are actually "anti-Israel" bigots in disguise.
I await his next post to find out whether Israeli people are anti-Semetic or just plain anti-Israel in failing to put the Likud Party, which obviously expresses the real views of all pro-Israel Israelis, into the "decider" seat.
You really have to be on the alert for all these "anti-Israel" bigots. They could be hiding anywhere, even under a bed in Tel Aviv or even under the majority of beds in Israel.
David Horowitz is a Holocaust denier, so for him and his stooges to smear someone else as an "anti-Semite" is like being called a crook with a combover by Tom DeLay.
ReplyDeletewhy does Yale need yet another such leftist professor to add to its collection?
ReplyDeleteThat's funny. I have started reading his site lately and I find it instructive and agree with a lot of what he writes, but I am hardly a "leftist" and didn't perceive him to be one either. Are you sure he is a "leftist"?
Does Yale have a single neocon professor or even a professor of any ideology which teaches neocon foreign policy in a neutral manner?
Teaching neocon foreign policy in a neutral manner would be impossible because the whole point of neocon ideology is that the true neocon agendas have to be hidden from the public eye and various false assertions ("we advocate the use of military force to do good in the world") are specifically to be substituted for the actual agenda.
I haven't noticed Bush walking into the Oval Office with a copy of "The New World Order" or "Trading Oil Futures For Fun and Profit (when you and your friends here and abroad are manipulating the world price of oil)" under his arm, have you?
"I don't have all day to research this, but here's one such citation..."
ReplyDeletePosted by Hidden Imam
Facts? Facts? You want facts? Come on now, I'm far too busy to be bothered with facts. I'm busy typing and you want me to do research?
The gall...
I am forming my ideal cabinet, and am hereby appointing armagednoutahere as Secretary of State.
ReplyDeletere:the attack on juan coles.
ReplyDeletewake up you dumb bastards!!
this is part of a political campaign to intimidate academics and universities who are critical of some of bush’s war and foreign policy “initiatives”.
in both cases
“anti-semitism” seems to be the derogative of choice.
first,
profs mersheim and walt,
writing on the negative influence of aipac (american-israeli political action committee) on american policy
and now,
juan coles,
a middle east scholar with a weblog who does not wave pompoms for all of bush’s war and foreign policy activities.
motives:
who knows,
but how about
intimidating universities
IN THE FUTURE
so they will be hesitant to hire critics or potential critics of bush “fopol” (foreign policy)?
the attack on valerie plame had the same goal, to intimidate
IN THE FUTURE
any bush foreign policy critics.
these and other right wing republican tactics
remind me of the power-acquiring and holding tactics of the national socialist democratic workers’ party in germany in the 1920’s and 30’s.
again i say,.
wake up you dumb bastards.
this fight is not about specifics of one or another "issue",
it is about seizing and keeping power by force,
including intimidating individuals and institutions.
I direct the readers to a terrific article Why Oppose the Israel Lobby. Comments on Mearsheimer and Walts in which the author offers his own criticisms of M&W's article as well as his support of some of their positions.
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be an excellent analysis. I see he has trouble with a few of the same things in the M&W work that I do.
One sentence leapt out at me:
Although the Lobby employs and encourages grassroots activism, its power comes mostly from a tiny elite. AIPAC’s core business is advising wealthy constituents where to invest their political money. “The loose association of individuals and organizations” M&W examine is mostly composed of extremely wealthy individuals, corporations and the non-profit organizations they fund to the tune of millions of dollars a year.
I am one who always has to knock my head against the wall when I have to endlessly confront my own gullibility, which each day I vow to squash but the next day it's right back in action.
Although I know full well on a certain level that "Following the money" is what is really all about, I keep letting myself get seduced by side issues and start believing that various groups really are guided by political and ideological factors rather than their own greed.
At least I always remember to point out that it is the leaders of all groups who are the problem and not the followers.
"Collectives" of any sort are always a big problem and that is why I happen not to believe in "groups" in general, but focus on the words and actions of individuals.
michael birk. Yes, I saw that. Sometimes when I am about to post I see a notice that says "Blogger will be closed for 45 minutes doing maintenance" and when it comes back, it either puts my post on the wrong thread, or posts it twice on the same thread.
ReplyDeleteDoes that happen to anyone else?
Sorry.... My mistake, Arne.
ReplyDeleteDavid Horowitz was a third-rate Stalinist moron when I knew him in the antiwar movement 39 years ago and he was generally considered a bad joke.
ReplyDeleteLike most halfwit-wannabees, he moved on to someplace dumb enough (the American right, which hasn't got a collective positive-number single-digit IQ) where the fact he hasn't got the brains to find the zipper on his fly with both hands on a clear day with a 30-minute advance notice isn't as apparent as it was when he was such a widely-known intellectual failure on the left. He's as prominent as he is nowadays due to the fact computers are so user-friendly that a biped lacking frontal lobes and opposable thumbs (like Dave) can use them.
Like most totalitarians, he has no trouble moving from Stalinism to Fascism, due to the fact there is so little difference between the two.
The best word to use to use to describe this lifelong loser is "pathetic."
David Horowitz was a third-rate Stalinist moron when I knew him in the antiwar movement 39 years ago and he was generally considered a bad joke.
ReplyDeleteThis is a rank lie. Horowitz and Peter Collier made their reputations as editors of Ramparts Magazine, which had a circulation of 400,000 at its peak. Every major New Left figure appeared within its pages.
You clearly did not know Horowitz "39 years ago" if you claim he was "generally considered a bad joke." You are simply lying.
Sorry about that. Perhaps you don't read any other sites.
ReplyDeleteIf we didn't read other sites we wouldn't be here, moron.
The Frontpage Magazine Cole article was written by Steve Plaut, and is chock full of quotes, cites, and links to third-party sources to back up his statements regarding Cole.
The truth is, that far more conservatives and libertarians read leftist websites like this one, and also read leftist magazines and newspapers than their counterparts on the left read conservative or libertarian publications or websites.
Which conservative publications do you read? Which conservative websites do you visit?
None? I thought so.
From anonymous at 7:32AM:
ReplyDelete"This is a rank lie. Horowitz and Peter Collier made their reputations as editors of Ramparts Magazine, which had a circulation of 400,000 at its peak. Every major New Left figure appeared within its pages."
So? This doesn't mean Horowitz or Collier were anything more than fellow travellers to their intellectual and philosophical superiors. But then the same is true of Horowitz today, isn't it?
anonymous continues at 7:48AM:
"The Frontpage Magazine Cole article was written by Steve Plaut, and is chock full of quotes, cites, and links to third-party sources to back up his statements regarding Cole."
This would be the same article that is truncates Professor Cole's sentences and statements, fills space with less-than-relevant citations, and links to less-than-expert third parties with a ideological predisposition, correct?
Let me guess, you also think Jeane Kirkpatrick's writings during her tenure at Georgetown and prior to joining the Reagan Administration were cutting-edge masterpieces of intellectual prowess.
Sad. Very sad.
This doesn't mean Horowitz or Collier were anything more than fellow travellers to their intellectual and philosophical superiors.
ReplyDeleteWe all have "intellectual and philosophical superiors," Yankeependragon. Your statement is meaningless.
This would be the same article that is truncates Professor Cole's sentences and statements...
One or two examples would be quite instructive Yankeependragon. Do you have any to share?
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThe truth is, that far more conservatives and libertarians read leftist websites like this one, and also read leftist magazines and newspapers than their counterparts on the left read conservative or libertarian publications or websites.
You misspelled "post at". And dat's da troot. Ya see, the RWers either don't allow posting at all, or they ban any dissenting voice in milliseconds. Why bother going to read that c*** over there when they won't even entertain a discussion?
Cheers,
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThe truth is, that far more conservatives and libertarians read leftist websites like this one, and also read leftist magazines and newspapers than their counterparts on the left read conservative or libertarian publications or websites.
And half the viewers of Faux news shows like the MaleFactor and Inanity and Combovers are folks on the left who watch for it's comedic value and all the material they can get. Without you clowns, "the left" would cease to exist. Then you talentless clowns would be out of a job. That's kind of the point, isn't it? It's really a New Deal program.
A contemporary of Horowitz's during his Ramparts days described his political transition from the left to the right in 1991:
"The phone rings and a guy in my office says, "It's David Horowitz." I haven't spoken to David Horowitz since the end of the '60s, when we both worked at Ramparts. Since then, with another former Ramparts editor, Peter Collier, this little creep has written a series of best-selling portraits of ruling class families--The Rockefellers, The Fords, The Kennedys--and boasted in print about voting for Ronald Reagan. Horowitz and Collier say they once believed fervently in left causes and institutions (from the Soviet Union to the Black Panther Party), and when they discovered these institutions to be corrupt and murderous they had to denounce them and come out for the other side.
There are many flaws in this "logic." For openers, there aren't just two sides in this world (the fake left and the cruel right). And sure it's demoralizing to learn that the party that supposedly stands for equality is run by opportunists and actually stands for privilege. But that wouldn't lead a real radical to endorse the all-out pursuit of privilege. It should lead you to call for a movement that's serious about establishing equality. Horowitz and Collier were never radicals for a minute. Their goal was and is personal success. It's no coincidence that they were "left" in the '60s and "right" in the '80s."
Fred Gardner
Why bother going to read that c*** over there when they won't even entertain a discussion?
ReplyDeleteOne reason would be to expose yourself to views other than your own, and to (now and then) take a breather from leftist echo-chambers like "Unclaimed Territory." You might be surprised how edifying it can be to see the world through the eyes of those whose views you generally oppose.
You might be surprised how edifying it can be to see the world through the eyes of those whose views you generally oppose.
ReplyDeleteHave you tried seeing the world through the eyes of a Palestinian kid yet? Let us know how that works out for you...
From anonymous at 10:08AM:
ReplyDelete"One or two examples would be quite instructive Yankeependragon. Do you have any to share?"
I'm presuming we're both referring to Mr. Plaut's March 23, 2005 piece.
Let's take the first page alone. Mr. Plaut immediately mischaracterizes MESA and Professor Cole, calling the former an "anti-American and anti-Iraeli advocacy group" and the latter as "serving as the "Rais"". Neither are factually accurate; the fact MESA is opposed (often with good reason) to current Israeli and American policies in the region doesn't automatically make them 'anti' anything, and Professor Cole is simply a very visible member of the Association.
In the second paragraph, he claims Professor Cole "led the lobby to clear Saddam of any ties with terrorism". In point of fact, Professor Cole has consistently held there are no direct ties between Hussein and Al Qaeda, a fact borne out by current investigations and findings.
After the necessary genuflection to Jonathan Calt Harris's brand of bile, four quotes are offered as proof of Professor Cole's bias. The first is arguable, but the remaining three show more about Plaut's biases than his nominal subject's:
"Chemical weapons are not weapons of mass destruction." This was part of a post by Professor Cole's part to undo a persistent rehtorical and conceptual misconception about this class of weapons; he noted they are battlefield weapons that can be employed against civilian targets as well as military ones, but are several orders of magnitude less destructive than nukes or HE munitions; a position shared with several experts in the field. Calling them WMDs is a misnomier at best, an outright distortion at worst.
"Hussein never gave any real support to the Palestinian cause" and "Supporting orphans is...not the same as funding terrorism." Unlike many on the right-end of the dial, Professor Cole points out there has been NO documentation or evidence of the oft-stated claim Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers some manner of bounty or compensation. And given Hussein's history, only a fool (or the Bush Administration) would take him at his word.
That's just the first couple paragraphs. The rest of the article doesn't get any better and is a sad litany of slanted opinion and 'analysis' no deeper than drained pool.
For those with strong stomachs, the article is here:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17422
And thanks for proving my point about the comedic value of "the view from the right."
ReplyDeleteDo you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment? * 257699 responses
ReplyDeleteYes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.
86%
No, like any president, he has made a few missteps, but nothing approaching "high crimes and misdemeanors."
4.4%
No, the man has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment would just be a political lynching.
7.4%
I don't know.
1.8%
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/
Do you need any more proof that "angry leftists" will stop the ruination of this country?
Whaaaaaa!
Incidentially, anonymous, your 10:49AM comment is well taken. One should expose oneself to contrary opinions to one's own.
ReplyDeleteSadly, at least for those of us who use both hemipheres of our brains, the righty blogs only show us how good the English language is at communicating hate. "The Turner Diaries" are a more instructive read.
Shorter anonymous at 11:09AM:
ReplyDeleteNo, I can't as my preconceptions are too strong.
No, I am afraid it is hard for me to imagine what it would be like living in a society where most adults identify with and support a fascist death cult that is willing to send its children into pizza parlors carrying hidden bombs filled with nails and shards of glass to blow up other children just because they are Jewish.
ReplyDeleteCan you?
11:09 AM
You missed your true calling. You should have been a comedian.
So... you want others to not only see your point of view, but espouse it, but you are, by your own admission, incapable of seeing other points of view. That, I think, is why most of the world leans left. You are a sociopath, and fortunately you are in the minority. I attribute millenarianism (a psychosis that comes around in it's acute stage once every 1000 years and a more milder chronic variety every 100 years or so) and a few other factors to your brief and ill-fated rise to power in this country. Thank God it's almost over.
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Why bother going to read that c*** over there when they won't even entertain a discussion?
One reason would be to expose yourself to views other than your own, ...
Ummm, since Glenn G. allows alll kinds of posts, even anonymous posts, and deletes only the most egregious and vacuous ones, we get that over here, don't we? See, you're allowed to spew your c*** here along with HWSNBN's repeated utterings of the Bushco "talking points", the "Nuke Iran now" crew busily calling all who dare to disagree "anti-Semites", and the likes of "The Fly", "Gedaliya", and "Ugly American".
See the difference? No? Which may explain why I don't find your favourite sites so compelling. But FWIW, until Cap'n Ed, contrary to his stated terms, banned me, I was over at Captain's Quarters a fair bit. Nowadays, you need Typepad registration to post there, and Cap'n Ed, always the liberal, screens your posts and black-lists anyone who might get too much in the way of the cause.
But you assume I don't go over there and take a peek now and then. You assume wrongly. But, to tell the truth, and as is pointed out here, it's pretty much a wasteland.
... and to (now and then) take a breather from leftist echo-chambers like "Unclaimed Territory."...
You know. "Assume". "A**". "Yoo". "Me".
But I'd also like to take a moment to point out that Glenn's blog here is far from a "leftist echo-chamber".
You might be surprised how edifying it can be to see the world through the eyes of those whose views you generally oppose.
You might be surprised to know that I do read all kinds of things (including the terminally irritating and fatuous VDH). You might be, that is, if you were capable of thinking outside the box and admitting that liberals do those kinds of things, and that perhaps there's a reason they're not all conservatives other than the fact that they're just not been properly exposed to the glories of "conservative thinking" as exemplified by the likes of LittleGreenSnotballs, and Freeperville.
BTW, IC that you've been all over the liberal blogosphere and posting any number of inconsistent positions. Googling "blog" and your cute little handle "anonymous" turns up quite a number of hits. How do you have time for it all?
Cheers,
And if it came to that, I suppose I would die for a cause I believed in strongly enough. And I would have no problem taking out a few of my oppressors in the process. have you thought about sending those poor Palestinian kids computers? Then they could sit in the relative safety of their west bank hovels waiting for the bulldozers to come while tossing bombs on-line, like you do.
ReplyDeleteI'm presuming we're both referring to Mr. Plaut's March 23, 2005 piece.
ReplyDeleteLet's take the first page alone….
You claim Plaut “mischaracterizes” MESA and Professor Cole. That, of course, is a matter of opinion, as we will see below. You do not provide an example, however, of Plaut “truncate[ing] Professor Cole's sentences and statements.” I found no evidence of this in the piece…did you?
In the second paragraph, he claims Professor Cole "led the lobby to clear Saddam of any ties with terrorism". In point of fact, Professor Cole has consistently held there are no direct ties between Hussein and Al Qaeda, a fact borne out by current investigations and findings.
So, in other words, you agree with Plaut regarding Cole. This is not a “mischaracterization” of his view, but in fact a fair representation of his views, correct?
After the necessary genuflection to Jonathan Calt Harris's brand of bile, four quotes are offered as proof of Professor Cole's bias. The first is arguable, but the remaining three show more about Plaut's biases than his nominal subject's:
"Chemical weapons are not weapons of mass destruction…"
Again, you’re not presenting evidence that Plaut “mischaracterizes” or “truncates Cole’s sentences and statements,” you’re defending those sentences or statements and thus confirming Plaut’s accurate representation of them. This is fine and good, but don’t use such examples to attempt to impugn or smear Plaut. It is fine to argue with Plaut, but it is not appropriate to claim that Plaut is mischaracterizing the very views you are defending in your comment.
The rest of the article doesn't get any better and is a sad litany of slanted opinion and 'analysis' no deeper than drained pool.
“Slanted opinion and analysis” is much different than “mischaracterization,” don’t you agree? After all, it is an opinion piece posted on a blog devoted to the expression of opinions. Furthermore, I see nothing to back up your charges that Plaut is “truncating statements and sentences” at all, and in fact, the examples you post in your comment prove that Plaut is fairly representing Cole’s views, not mischaracterizing them.
Ummm, since Glenn G. allows alll kinds of posts...
ReplyDeleteNot quite. He has (effectively) banned Gedaliya and deleted his posts.
See the difference? No? Which may explain why I don't find your favourite sites so compelling.
I haven’t mentioned my favorite sites.
But you assume I don't go over there and take a peek now and then. You assume wrongly.
I stand corrected.
But I'd also like to take a moment to point out that Glenn's blog here is far from a "leftist echo-chamber".
Oh please. Now you’re simply being ridiculous.
... but you are, by your own admission, incapable of seeing other points of view.
ReplyDeleteThis is incorrect. I said that I am incapable of "seeing" the views of someone willing to send their child on a suicide mission to murder other children in cold blood. Perhaps you are capable of "seeing" this view, but I doubt it. What is more likely is that you're just another Jew-hater who is secretly thrilled whenever Jewish body parts are strewn about the street amid pools of Jewish blood and gore.
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Ummm, since Glenn G. allows alll kinds of posts...
Not quite. He has (effectively) banned Gedaliya and deleted his posts.
Oh, nonsense. All he did was say (reluctantly) that Gedaliya gets one post a day until he gets a clue.
Gedaliya can spout as long (and as mindlessly and as repeatedly) as he wants; he just doesn't get to bury the thread in fluff.
Nonetheless, even were I to grant you that Glenn has done a single "ban", that's far different from not allowing comments at all, isn't it?
[Arne]: But I'd also like to take a moment to point out that Glenn's blog here is far from a "leftist echo-chamber".
Oh please. Now you’re simply being ridiculous.
Au contraire, mon ami.... Here it's you who are being ridiculous. We get all kinds of people here (including you), and even Glenn is hardly an obvious "leftist" himself. In fact, I'd guess he's pretty MOTR on a lot of things (but as his forte is law, he tends towards the legal aspect of things, and keeps the political end of it, at least from his perspective, in the background). You may disagree. Which brings to mind Truman's adage: "I just tell the truth, and they think it's hell...."
Cheers,
From anonymous at 12:02PM:
ReplyDelete"Furthermore, I see nothing to back up your charges that Plaut is “truncating statements and sentences” at all, and in fact, the examples you post in your comment prove that Plaut is fairly representing Cole’s views, not mischaracterizing them."
By 'truncating' I meant Mr. Plaut taking single sentences out of longer passages which, absent of the context, casts Professor Cole's opinion in a different, inaccurate light. I believe I showed Plaut's interpretation of each statement to be at the very least misdirected, if not outright and deliberately erroneous.
Indeed, Mr. Plaut's article from start to finish offers no historical or substantive rebuttal to any of Professor Cole's positions, preferring to instead cast him as some Hussein apologist and anti-semite by ad hominen ideological attacks.
Incidentially, the three 'quotes' Plaut uses and I respond to are introduced as "Some of Cole's most outrageous statements". Hardly a sound characterization of what are simple admissions of reality, is it?
From anonymous at 12:32PM:
ReplyDelete"What is more likely is that you're just another Jew-hater who is secretly thrilled whenever Jewish body parts are strewn about the street amid pools of Jewish blood and gore."
Careful. Your biases are showing.
Nonetheless, even were I to grant you that Glenn has done a single "ban", that's far different from not allowing comments at all, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteI never said Glenn disllowed comments. I said he doesn't allow "all kinds" of comments. "All kinds" is inclusive, and as the example I provided proves, Glenn has his limits and has exercised them.
...even Glenn is hardly an obvious "leftist" himself.
Sure, sure, he just plays one on Air America. Come on now, why is so hard to just say that "Glenn is a leftist"? Is there something shameful in that moniker?
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Nonetheless, even were I to grant you that Glenn has done a single "ban", that's far different from not allowing comments at all, isn't it?
I never said Glenn disllowed comments. I said he doesn't allow "all kinds" of comments. "All kinds" is inclusive, and as the example I provided proves, Glenn has his limits and has exercised them.
And I said that he does. Even Gedaliya is allowed his one post a day. But in a very technical sense, Glenn told him to STFU, yes. But (at the risk of sounding a bit like Gedaliya)....
[Arne]: Nonetheless, even were I to grant you that Glenn has done a single "ban", that's far different from not allowing comments at all, isn't it?
;-)
Cheers,
This is incorrect. I said that I am incapable of "seeing" the views of someone willing to send their child on a suicide mission to murder other children in cold blood. Perhaps you are capable of "seeing" this view, but I doubt it. What is more likely is that you're just another Jew-hater who is secretly thrilled whenever Jewish body parts are strewn about the street amid pools of Jewish blood and gore.
ReplyDeleteI liked Einstein. He was a Jew. I like lots of different kinds of people. without me telling you, you know exactly what kind of people I wouldn't miss and it matters little to me where or how they go.
I asked you if you had tried seeing the world through the eyes of a Palestinian kid yet. Palestinian kids don't have kids to send out on suicide missions. Teen pregnancy seems to be more of a Judeo-Christian problem than a Muslim one. So as I said you are incapable of doing the very thing you claim leftists can't or won't do. Projection, another symptom on the continuum of neurosis to psychosis that is the mental disorder known as conservatism and right wing paranoia.
Sicarii
ReplyDeleteThat's from the Jewish Encyclopedia...
Let's look at a less biased view..
The Masada Myth
Scholar presents evidence that the heroes of the Jewish Great Revolt were not heroes at all.
...The Sicarii in Jerusalem were involved in so much terrorist activity against Jews and others that they were forced to leave the city some time before the Roman siege there began. They fled to Masada. There, under the leadership/command of Eleazar Ben-Yair (a "tyrant" in Josephus' terminology) they remained (perhaps with some non-Sicarii who may have joined them) until the bitter end when most of them agreed to kill one another.
While the Sicarii were in Masada, it is clear that they raided nearby villages. One of the "peaks" of these raids was the attack on Ein-gedi. According to Josephus, the Sicarii on Masada attacked Ein- gedi in the following ferocious manner:
"...they came down by night, without being discovered... and overran a small city called Engaddi: - in which expedition they prevented those citizens that could have stopped them, before they could arm themselves and fight them. They also dispersed them, and cast them out of the city. As for such that could not run away, being women and children, they slew of them above seven hundred" (p. 537).
Afterward, the Sicarii raiders carried all the food supplies from Ein- gedi to Masada.
There's so much more... why not expose yourself to some other people's views?
I liked Einstein. He was a Jew.
ReplyDeleteOnly the most feeble mind could possible imagine that this moronic statement somehow proves to anyone here that you aren't anything other than an abject Jew-hater.
You are obviously some kine of David Duke-type anti-Semitic cretin if you can comfortably justify the mass murder of innocent Jews by child suicide bombers sent on their mission by the Arab death cultists living on the west bank of the Jordan River or in Gaza strip.
Projection, another symptom on the continuum of neurosis to psychosis that is the mental disorder known as conservatism and right wing paranoia.
Look chum. You can draw upon all the sophomore-year psychobabble you have at your command to justify your anti-Semitism. It may even puff up your sunken chest and get your dick hard. But don't expect it to impress anyone else, even around here.
You reap what you sow...
ReplyDeleteJust a short list. I'm sure there are so many more we will never hear about.
Tell me again you are incapable of "seeing" the views of someone willing to send their child on a suicide mission to murder other children in cold blood so i can laugh harder this time.
Irgun and Lehi attacks
List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s
During the period 1937-1939, the Irgun conducted a campaign of bombings and other acts of violence against Arab civilians.
Lehi assassinated British minister Lord Moyne in Cairo in 1944.
The killings of several suspected collaborators with the Haganah and the British mandate government during The Hunting Season (1944-1945).
The King David Hotel bombing on July 26, 1946, killing 91 people. The Irgun delivered a warning to the hotel switchboard but there is disagreement over whether it was sufficiently in advance of the explosion or whether the hotel management responded effectively.
Attacked British military airfields and railways several times in 1946.
The bombing by the Irgun of the British Embassy in Rome in 1946.
The 1947 reprisal killing of two British sergeants who had been taken prisoner in response to British execution of two Irgun members in Akko prison.
Lehi assassinated the UN mediator Count Bernadotte in September 1948 for his allegedly pro-Arab conduct during the cease-fire negotiations.
During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War
List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
Deir Yassin massacre, in April 1948, by Irgun and Lehi forces ....
Here's a nice massacre.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if abused peoples grow up to be like their abusers. It can happen with kids, they say.
So many we will never hear about...
ReplyDeletePhotographs of the bodies
Meir Pa'il who was at the scene during the massacre brought with him a photographer who took pictures of the dead bodies. These photos have never been published and are to this date still kept secret in the IDF archives, not even academic researchers being allowed to gain access to them.
List of (known) massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
ReplyDeleteOut of the 26 listed only in 7 were Arabs the responsible party. How do you like them odds?
No wonder conservatards want to rewrite history and control the academy. If the truth were known...
Actually bart is more right than wrong about Nixon. In most important regards, the degree to which Nixon was a "mixed economist" who believed in runaway executive powers would establish him more as a socialist than a laissez-faire capitalist.
ReplyDeleteAs for teaching the classics, few things are more worthwhile as a starting point in education. Knowledge of the classics is a tremendous gift as one goes through life, especially in a time when most of what passes as "literature" is the written equivalent of American Idol.
To view the emphasis on great liturature in Greece centuries ago
as indicative of an "elitist" mentality designed to protect the privileged classes is the clearest statement I can remember of the anti-intellectual, collectivist mentality.
It is, in my opinion, a truly tragic philosophy of life which would be more forgiveable if it didn't do so much damage to so many people.
Nice.
ReplyDeleteThat people can take Steven Plaut or anything he writes seriously is amazing. With a few more like him, the "Israel Lobby" might as well give up. He (= Moe) engages in three stooges psyops - like infiltrating an academic list I happen to participate in with his moronic henchpersons (Larry and Curly) who tried to disrupt it with trollish behavior like pretending to be Arabs who yearn for more Israeli tough love, spouting the most tired propaganda - and then accidentally sent emails to each other describing and gloating over the operation to the entire list! I couldn't stop laughing about it when I read them. When John Lott did much less, he was punished much more.
ReplyDeleteWith a few more like him, the "Israel Lobby" might as well give up.
ReplyDeleteThis sentiment will put you at odds with the gaggle of anti-Semites in this blog who imagine the "Lobby" to be all but invincible. If the "Lobby" is so weak that only a few more Steve Plauts will bring it down, how then could it be the nefarious force that so many here claim it to be?
'For instance, ALL parties are supportive of the "apartheid wall," as the idiots like to call it,'
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. All parties are supportive of *a* wall. The left-wing parties are supportive of placing the wall on the 1967 Green Line, rather than enclosing the Israeli West Bank settlements.
'that's an effective way to stop the savages from exploding themselves'
Arguable, but more importantly....
While you're referring to "savages", how about the Israeli Army, with its policies of razing the houses of people suspected of being related to terrorists, thus punishing grandmothers and small children for the actions of people they had no control over? This is heavily criticized by Labor and the left-wing parties, and supported by Likud.
You appear to have bought the Likudnik line wholesale and are now claiming that it represents all Israelis. In other words, you *are* the problem which Glenn just described. Meet some liberal Israelis. (Heck, meet some of the creepy Israeli army Likudniks who my friend met, who claimed that all Palestinians were "subhuman".)
Eyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeleteActually bart is more right than wrong about Nixon. In most important regards, the degree to which Nixon was a "mixed economist" who believed in runaway executive powers would establish him more as a socialist than a laissez-faire capitalist.
Nixon a socialist? That's rich. You can plot him on the authoritarian continuum somewhere between facist and totalitarian.
This sentiment will put you at odds with the gaggle of anti-Semites in this blog who imagine the "Lobby" to be all but invincible. If the "Lobby" is so weak that only a few more Steve Plauts will bring it down, how then could it be the nefarious force that so many here claim it to be?
Stormfront is an openly anti-semitic site. Please keep comparing Glenn Greenwald and the gaggle of people who read this blog with that festering pus hole. using a simple word substitution method you will Stormfront and LGF virtually indistuinguishable from one another. Please keep up the good work and thanks for the comic relief.
Original intent deserves some respect as a concept. However, it is generally disrespected and misused by the right-wingers who claim to adhere to it: for the most classic example, look at the indefensible Bush v. Gore, but there are many other examples of "original intent" followers picking and choosing when to use original intent and when not to. In other words, the promoters of original intent are, on the whole, being dishonest.
ReplyDeleteOriginal intent would demand the withdrawal of all American military forces abroad immediately, since there has been no declaration of war. Just for an example.
Textualism, on the other hand, is an entirely incoherent philosophy for Constitutional interpretation. This is proved by the Ninth Amendment: a strict textual interpretation of the Ninth Amendment specifically requires that judges identify individual rights which are not textually present anywhere in the Constitution.
No advocate of textualism has ever, to my knowledge, admitted this: they prefer to ignore the Ninth Amendment. They are even more dishonest than the promoters of "original intent".
'The only time I took issue with a grade is when a gay professor in a family law class asked the students whether gay "marriage" was a right guaranteed by the Constitution. I told him flatly no and cited the relevant Constitutional provisions and case law. He wasn't happy with that answer and gave me a C.'
ReplyDeleteThe thing I find interesting about this is that all the valid arguments that gay marriage is not guaranteed by the Constitution are also solid arguments that marriage of any sort should not be recognized by the federal government, period. (This is where the right-wingers tend to fall down: they often end up saying that the government has a 'right' to 'promote' certain lifestyles, which is certainly not a power given to it in the Constitution.) I wonder what grade you'd have gotten if you'd made the case against legally recognized marriage period? :-)
'This sentiment will put you at odds with the gaggle of anti-Semites in this blog who imagine the "Lobby" to be all but invincible.'
ReplyDeleteStrawman argument alert. No commentator here has ever claimed that the Likudnik Lobby is "all but invincible", except you.
'If the "Lobby" is so weak that only a few more Steve Plauts will bring it down, how then could it be the nefarious force that so many here claim it to be?'
"Nefarious" means "evil". Many evil forces are not actually very powerful: look at the current American Nazi Party, for instance.
Unfortunately, the Likudnik Lobby has become a useful tool of the neocons, and they are giving it a meaningful amount of influence. It's still a pretty minor player compared to Halliburton, the Christian Coalition, or even Rush Limbaugh, and I think everyone here would agree with that.
Most Palestinian adults do not support suicide bombings of civilians...
ReplyDeleteYou don't have your facts straight:
JMCC Poll of Palestinians: 56.2% support suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians
Oh, and btw, as recently as April 2003, 75.6% of Palestinians supported suicide operations against Jewish civilians, according to the JMCC.
ReplyDeleteSo, in once sense, I suppose, things are improving.
[rolling eyes]
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMost Palestinian adults do not support suicide bombings of civilians...
You don't have your facts straight:
JMCC Poll of Palestinians: 56.2% support suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians
You mean you don't have your polls straight.
Margin of error, confidence level, the fact that Palestinian Journalists conducted the poll...
50-50 at worst, most don't support at best.
Margin of error, confidence level, the fact that Palestinian Journalists conducted the poll...
ReplyDeleteFrom the link I posted, the poll was:
A random sample of 1,200 people over the age of 18 was interviewed
face-to-face throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip between 8th and 12th of February 2006.
The margin of error is 3 percent, with a confidence level of 95.
50-50 at worst, most don't support at best.
ReplyDeleteAre you actually cheering the fact that at least 50% of Arab adults living in the West Bank and Gaza support sending their own children to blow themselves up in pizza parlors and falafel stands?
It is no wonder that the left in this country is a complete and utter moral wasteland.
From anonymous at 5:50PM:
ReplyDelete"It is no wonder that the left in this country is a complete and utter moral wasteland."
An odd sentiment, coming from one who indulges in the worst rehtorical and intellectual excesses.
You're really not bothered by it at all, are you? I doubt you're even aware of what a moral midget you present yourself as.
Sad. Truly sad.
"It is no wonder that the left in this country is a complete and utter moral wasteland."
ReplyDeleteAlmost identical to a comment by Lech Walesa. I think he said this country was a cultural wasteland. He was referring to Reagan-Bush America. Morality is highly overrated in any case and usually the province of hypocrites. And the right in this country is nothing if not ethically challenged hypocrites.
From the link I posted, the poll was:
A random sample of 1,200 people over the age of 18 was interviewed
face-to-face throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip between 8th and 12th of February 2006.
The margin of error is 3 percent, with a confidence level of 95.
And the right is apparently pretty obtuse as well. That's the first thing I checked at the link. Aside from the fact that you can see the swastikas displayed prominently on our walls, you can also see us jumping up and down in our seats applauding and cheering each new bombing "over teh internets". No wonder you approve of a country spying on it's own citizens.
The comparison to nuking Iran is an interesting one, since a large proportion of the US "right wing" *does* support nuking Iran.
ReplyDelete