I will be posting today at Crooks & Liars and will post the links here when they are ready. The first post concerns this rather typical column from Bill Kristol in The Weekly Standard, his most overt call yet to wage war on Iran -- and quickly.
Iran, of course, is Nazi Germany. Its leaders are Adolph Hitler. And we are France & England in 1936, faced with the only historical choice people like Kristol are capable of understanding -- we either wage glorious battle and take our rightful place beside the noble Winston Churchill, or we shrink away from our grand historical calling and are instantaneously transformed into the lowly coward, Neville Chamberlain.
They see every event and every conflict through this one single historical event, and it's truly amazing that our country has been led for the last five years by this most simplistic and stunted understanding of the world.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were a law which dictated that anyone advocating war on the public airways was obliged to serve on the front lines for a minimum of one month.
ReplyDeleteOh, what I'd give to see Kristol in camouflage.
As long as there is no draft, and as long as these chickenhawks are allowed to make and influence policy, the lives of American soldiers - and those of both Iraqi and Iranian civilians - will be of no more value than scattered and broken chess pieces.
It remains a "great game" to men like Kristol, but a life-scarring tragedy to those who actually have to shut up and put up.
Many years ago, I was in England and took a course with a member of the Conservative Party (Think that's what it was called at that time anyway.) I asked, being a young and ignorant fellow at that time, "Have people learned the lessons of appeasement in the 1930s?"
ReplyDeleteHis reply was: "I think we've overlearned it. We tend to se everything in that light, whether it's truly appropriate or not."
According to your piece here, not much has changed.
What immediately came to mind in reading Kristol's article, is that his first and only presumption is that military action is necessary! Nothing other that military action is conceivable! This is a mindset bereft of "mind", and far too commonplace in the discourse of his ilk.
ReplyDeleteYes, military action is an option, but it is NOT the only option. It has been almost 40 years since the US Government has actually sat down and talked with the Iranian government.
I'm am not naive to think that the Iranian government consists of Islamic choirboys. They have been responsible for a number of significant terrorist attacks against American interest (including among them Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia and the Marine Barracks in Lebanon).
And when seen through the eyes of many non-Americans (and some thoughtful Americans as well), we too have at times indiscriminately wielded a sword that has struck terror on innocents (remember when the CIA/US Air Force Predator drone blew up a "tall individual" in Afghanistan just because Osama Bin Laden is "tall", and the poor man met this "profile" and therefore his maker, or when the US Navy shot down an Iranian civilian airline killing several hundred innocent civilians because in essence the US Navy got "scared" the plane was on an attack profile).
I'm not saying that Iran's system of government is in any way an equal of the democracy we live under.
I am saying that this administration and its supporters believe in a philosophy of "shoot first and ask questions later".
Folks, that ain't the way "civilization" works!
Someone last year I think said, (paraphrasing); "Wherever the neocons are, it's still Weimar Germany." (The neocons view the weakness of the leaders of the Weimar Republic as being responsible for the rise of Hitler.)
ReplyDeleteKristol epitomizes the meaning of that characterization as he is the lead voice urging unrestrained aggressive war as the only counterweight to Chamberlain style equivocation and democracy-based deal-making and diplomacy.
The neocons view the weakness of the leaders of the Weimar Republic as being responsible for the rise of Hitler.
ReplyDeleteBULLSHIT!!!!
The neocons brought hitler to power, and chimpy's granddadddy was a major player:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
“Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951” - Federal Documents
After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.
Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.
Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman.
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2
---------------------------------
Neocons make money hands-over-fist on the military-industrial complex. War creates the ultimate "consumable market".
I it so profitable that halliburton and others don't even have to account for BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of the federal funds that they steal.
Failing to talk about the economics of war and the wholesale theft from the federal treasury is what really enables it all.
The faux "advertise liberally" crowd not only has commandeered the term "liberal", stealing it away from everything it used to stand for; but they also are major players in enabling the chimperor because they reaffirm the meme that "nice people" don't talk about economic injustice.
I am extremely thankful to all you hearty and brave souls that have the fortitude to read the uber-crap and tell us about it. It's important to know the horrors going on in Amityville. I just can't look directly at it.
ReplyDeleteThank you all so much.
Glenn, have I said thank you lately?
Thank you.
The neocons brought hitler to power, and chimpy's granddadddy was a major player:
ReplyDeleteOh, so the sins of one's grandfather reflect now on the grandson? Nice sense of 11th Century "justice" you have there.
Failing to talk about the economics of war and the wholesale theft from the federal treasury is what really enables it all.
Really? What if some people think that the whole world can't be reduced to pathetically stupid single motives like "this is just all about money." Nothing else matter? Not religion, not psychology, not jingoism, not error in judgment, not race? It just all comes down to some trite socialist fantasies about world capitlalism?
Irnoic that Glenn is writing, correctly, about how simplistic the world view of neocons is, yet you come along to show that they aren't the only simpletons.
is Kristol enlisting? any of his friends? any of his family? willing to give up any of his tax cuts? no? then he needs to STFU
ReplyDeletethese people have blood on their hands, may they rot in hell
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteRegardless of what these people really believe, the Republicans know they have only ticket to staying in power -- fear and perpetual war. So of course they want war with Iran. Without fear, war, and terrorism, the Republican Party is dead.
So I would expect them to push for war. But what I don't get is why the public and the news media would let them get away with it.
Amazing. I guess we can forget that the US hasn’t actually attacked Iran & yet Iran supplies munitions & troops for the insurgency in Iraq that attacks & kills Americans everyday, that the US has indeed proceeded to hopefully resolve the Iranian conflict through diplomatic means: having Europeans (Germany, France & UK) talk to & deal directly w/ Iran (nothing accomplished so far), filing complaints at the UN & w/ the UNSC (nothing happening so far). I can see where the arguments that NeoCons are singularly sighted & have only one approach, war, are indeed valid, completely ignoring reality.
ReplyDeleteThe funniest part is that the Leader of Iran is constantly saying that Israel will be wiped off the map or that they (the Iranians) will annihilate the Israelis, excuse me, Zionists & the US lead coalition. Nope, no similarities to the Nazis there. Let’s see, Ahmadinejad wants to kill Jews for being Jews, exterminate them because they are Jewish... Now where have I heard that before? I couldn’t see why anyone would arrive at or compare him or his beliefs to the Nazi’s, I guess it is just rhetoric…
I agree there is a one-sided perspective being employed here, but it isn’t the NeoCons, it is the people letting their hatred for an administration blind them to what is really going on & the threats being issued against the US. I guess we can ignore the chants of “Death to America” as well, because the real threat is America & Halliburton.
Nuf Said: Iran already switched over to the EU as has several OPEC countries. Palestine had a chance at peace & would have had more terroritory then they do now, but they refused it. Much like they refuse to acknowledge Israel now, denounce violence or stand by previously signed agreements. Maybe we should just take them at their word. Of ourse we aren't talking about bombing Palestine, we are talking about Iran & no one has said that they would. Some people have speculated, but no government official has said it.
ennis, your a moron...
ReplyDeleteBut if you don't think that the family fortune and business matters or that there just happens to be BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars missing in Iraq...
I guess it does just "happen all the time, doesn't it?"
All wars are fought for economic reasons, but some prefer to talk in platitudes in order to sound like they have taken the "high ground."
It still is all about killing and stealing, however.
I am sure ennis ate some bunny today and probably prominaded in the easter parade at Wal-Mart.
ReplyDeleteHE HAS RISEN, HE HAS RISEN!
Who would have guessed that they were taking about their halliburton stock options...
I'd pay good money for somebody to say that to his face.
ReplyDeletePmain conveniently leaves out the fact that we invaded a country that has been shown NOT to have been a threat to us on false pretenses while making no provisions for the peace.
ReplyDeleteNow the same people are trotting out the same scaremongering and distortions in order to go to war against Iran, and he wants to blindly follow.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say. Send us a postcard when your unit gets to Teheran, will you?
Somebody really should start advertising zero percent financing on the Brooklyn Bridge on FOX or in the Washington Times. I imagine they'd make a bundle.
- mercury
nuf, continued astute, instructive observations on this blog.
ReplyDeleteMany of the facts you contain in your posts are facts I learn for the first time when reading your comments. These seem to be very important issues to consider when analyzing the relative merits of various courses of action.
Quotable
ReplyDeletePeace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.
– Thomas Jefferson
Re: Nuf said's list:
ReplyDeleteMaybe we could enforce the 160 UN sanctions against Israel. Maybe we could give the Palestinians an equal share in the foreign aid we send to Israel. Maybe we could investigate why 7 times as many Palestinian children have been killed during the intifada than Israeli children. Maybe we could replant the more than one million olive trees Israel has destroyed in the occupied territories. Maybe we could stop spending US tax dollars repatriating foreign Jews to the occupied territories.
All available evidence I've seen indicates that none of these will solve the Israel/Palestian problem. The only thing that will the Palestinians will settle for is the destruction of the Jewish state.
And if you think that will make us safer, you are kidding yourself.
Mercury,
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure what country you are talking about, because it sure isn’t Iraq. Iraq, more specifically, Saddam Hussein signed a cease-fire agreement w/ the US & coalition & broke it over 1000+ times in just firing on US air-craft alone. By the way according to said cease-fire agree the US retained rights to respond militarily for any violation as it saw fit. The firing on US aircraft alone disproves your “not a threat” meme. I guess attempting to assassinate a former President of the US doesn’t count as a threat, invading Kuwait, etc. I guess you also haven’t been kept abreast of the contents of Saddam’s own files recently translated. You know the ones where Saddam was financing & planning attacks on US assets & other countries, supporting terrorist organizations & let’s not forget the 6 Al Qaeda training camps in Iraq. Let me guess, you‘re going to say they are fake. Maybe we should verify that they weren’t faxed in from a Kinko’s in Texas. W/o rehashing the argument to invade, yet again, the provisions for peace were in place, they were in the 17 UN sanctions, those actions demanded Saddam allow the UN weapons inspectors unhindered access throughout his country, they were in the Oil-for-Food program (disregarded, ignored & abused by Saddam) & they were in the time that Bush gave Saddam to follow the terms he agreed to, before Bush & Congress authorized the invasion.
As far as “false pretenses” go, maybe you should read the reasons behind the authorization of force signed by Congress. I can’t help but notice that WMDs were only one of the justifications used by the Democrats that authorized it.
Your thinly veiled chickenhawk arguments won’t fly too much as well, since I did try to enlist Sept. 13, 2001, besides being possibly too old 32 at the time, the damage to my left knee from a car accident prevents me from joining my 2 brothers & cousin in Iraq right now. It makes it hard to run the 3 miles in 18 minutes that the USMC requires each person to do before being able to enlist. When you are operating bone on bone, running can be difficult. One brother has served tours in Afghanistan & Iraq, the other is currently in Iraq as we speak. My cousin is about to go on his 3rd tour. I guess we can discount the 40 + friends I have there or have been there as well.
Since you couldn’t refute the points I originally brought up & had to result to implying I was easy lead or a chickenhawk & failed to address the fact that “the same people” are actively pursuing diplomatic solutions via our allies & the UN – something you are either totally ignoring or don’t realize is being done - what was you point?
If we want to make sure we are paying $10 a gallon for gasoline; ensure further terrorist attacks against the US; ensure that the Middle East erupts in regional warfare; and break our military, by all means, let's attack Iran
ReplyDeleteWOW, sounds like cheney's "wish list" -- turn it into a profit center for the military-industrial complex and one of its major components, the oil industry.
It will also totally ruin the fiscal integrity of the federal government, thereby dictating the elminiation of Social Security and all kinds of other government programs!
Now wonder they want to do it!
pmain, you are quite skilled in memorizing by rote the GOP talking points.
ReplyDeleteActually, its a wonder of today's computer technology, the copy and paste troll!
No need for rote memorization and drill & practice of talking points -- merely visit any number of wingnut sites and fill up your clipboard!
Its fast, free, and makes a paid shill or moron seem oh-so-smart.
Looks like our usual copy and paste troll has the holiday off, but have no fear, a new wingnut shill is here!
THANK YOU COPY AND PASTE TROLLS!
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteIf you dismiss Kristol's comparisons with Hitler and Nazi Germany, then what comparison do you offer in its place.
Here is another analysis by an Iranian using Islamic and Iranian culture. This analysis in no more comforting than Kristol's Nazi analogy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/04/16/do1609.xml
In either case, you are dealing with a messianic leader of a quasi religious fascist movement with delusions of grandeur.
Make no mistake that this leader and his movement are enemies of the West in general and the United States in general. Ahmadinejad was one of the terrorists who kidnapped and threatened to kill the members of our embassy in Iran.
The question is whether you can allow this man and his Islamic fascist movement to have nuclear weapons.
For those of you who think we can merely "contain" Iran with the threat of MAD, remember that we are dealing with a death cult which worships martyrdom.
Reuel Marc Gerecht wrote a very good and sobering analysis of the alternatives the US faces with Iran.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/100mmysk.asp
Bart said:
ReplyDeletePellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. Morbi dui magna, vestibulum vel, vulputate vel, tempor sit amet, risus. Etiam consequat dui et nibh. Vestibulum aliquam blandit turpis. Suspendisse imperdiet, nunc quis condimentum auctor, nibh ipsum consectetuer urna, sed pulvinar dolor orci at nibh. Aenean nisi. Aliquam condimentum placerat ipsum. Cras congue, turpis ac mollis tempor, nunc sem sagittis mauris, in vehicula nunc felis eu pede. Nam commodo nunc sit amet leo. Maecenas condimentum risus sit amet libero.
Nullam non dui ac odio venenatis luctus. Nunc et est id odio luctus tempor. Fusce sed ipsum eu purus vestibulum interdum. Duis placerat. Praesent lobortis, neque at vehicula semper, neque massa fermentum nunc, et fringilla tortor lorem et erat. Vestibulum eget ipsum in elit elementum cursus. Etiam iaculis viverra elit. Integer convallis, magna a placerat tristique, orci orci tristique urna, id egestas metus lectus nec dolor. Suspendisse ultrices. In vitae risus sed odio tincidunt fermentum. Curabitur fermentum.
Nulla sem lacus, porta vel, volutpat semper, placerat vel, quam. Praesent sed elit. Fusce mollis, erat vitae suscipit rutrum, felis nisl pulvinar felis, nec tincidunt tellus turpis vel odio. Suspendisse elementum. Donec eros lectus, cursus ac, vehicula quis, rutrum quis, arcu. Sed at dolor ac velit dignissim malesuada. Fusce sed lectus. Phasellus commodo. Phasellus felis dolor, mattis nec, scelerisque ac, lacinia sit amet, nibh. Mauris quis lorem quis urna elementum laoreet. Integer id risus ac nunc volutpat commodo. Proin vel orci.
Quisque ligula nisl, tincidunt quis, gravida non, rhoncus id, nunc. Suspendisse eget neque in leo ornare vulputate. Suspendisse fermentum, tellus eu commodo elementum, massa quam imperdiet libero, vitae bibendum nibh lacus nec est. Proin feugiat nibh at justo. Suspendisse velit. Pellentesque posuere pede ac lectus. Cras ut ipsum. Proin bibendum. Donec quis nisi. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. Aliquam quis pede vel metus blandit dignissim. Curabitur elementum nisi tempor massa. Cras accumsan ipsum at augue. Integer mauris nulla, blandit id, laoreet sed, venenatis scelerisque, velit. Sed pulvinar. Aenean aliquet nulla et neque. Proin placerat lorem vitae est hendrerit tempor. Etiam adipiscing viverra quam.
Quisque euismod libero sit amet neque vulputate commodo. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Curabitur neque. Curabitur vel tortor. Etiam imperdiet, dolor sit amet varius imperdiet, elit ligula eleifend nisl, non placerat eros lorem at dolor. In volutpat nisi tincidunt tortor. Duis quis eros. Etiam quis velit. Vestibulum cursus mi eget elit. Aenean id sem.
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Michael,
ReplyDeleteToo bad I am not a Republican & don't know their party line - though I have honestly considered joining them since the Democratic Party has all but ruined my state & my elected officials don't seemed to be too listen to those that they represent. I did however read what it was my 2 Senators & Congresswoman signed that placed my family & friends in harm's way.
Micheal,
ReplyDeleteFirst, my response was to Mercury so back down little fella. I’m glad that you find me a “traitor to the principles upon which this country was founded” & I “wish for America to be a one party theocratic dictatorship” & the rest of your spew, & find it hilarious to think how you reached these unfounded conclusions. Have I called for “dissenters” to be silenced or imprisoned? Who exactly has been imprisoned or had their rights violated? Care to name them? How have your privacy rights been removed? Are you writing this from prison for protesting? Have your phones been tapped? My guess is a resounding No! Unless you can show me where I have made such comments or supported such actions, you should re-think your name calling & maybe grow up a little. Since I don’t belong to the Republican Party you arguments are rather hollow in any regard. Since I am an atheist your “theocratic dictatorship” claim is simply asinine. I am a registered Independent & have never joined any political party, but have thought about doing so. I am however a member of the Son’s of the American Revolution – that means I had family that fought & died in the Revolutionary War. I have also had family fight in the Civil War (for the North), WWII, Korea & Vietnam, not to mention family currently serving in Iraq right now. I can’t really see how I hate your freedoms, since my family has been fighting & defending them since before the country’s inception. I have family putting everything on-line insuring you have the right believe whatever it is that you do, can you make the same claim? Try responding to the arguments I make or don’t, but lay off the traitorous crap, because I find that offensive & unjustified.
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteBart: If you dismiss Kristol's comparisons with Hitler and Nazi Germany, then what comparison do you offer in its place.
If C&L ever puts up my post, you´ll see.
I look forward to your comparison.
There are lots of maniacal madmen in the world. The idea that we are going to go to war with everyone of them is as crazy and irrational as any of the statements which supposedly justify the wars.
In short, the US may not take action against one pathological regime unless we simultaneously attack all pathological regimes. That ridiculous notion is simply an excuse for inaction.
It may be a reasonable war provocation for Israel for a country to say they want to wipe it off the map, but I can't imagine how that would justify a U.S. attack on that country.
Israel cannot eliminate this threat. It is too far and too much to do.
Let's say that the terrorist in charge of Iran decides not to commit nuclear suicide against the US and instead does so against Israel alone.
Israel reportedly has more than 100 nukes and will use some of them in retaliation. Indeed, because they will not know where the Iranian nukes are, Israel will probably use several nukes to level the Iranian military and maybe the Iranian government.
Which is worse - an preemptive air attack by the US to stop this now or the risk of a nuclear exchange in the Middle East and the hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed?
Before any Dem agrees to discuss plans for war against ANY other country, they should insist on a serious discussion about mandatory service for any U.S. citizen of military age. Our volunteer military is stretched incredibly thin, and yet these assholes still must think it's always going to be someone else's kids dying in battle.
ReplyDeleteIt's time for the armchair warriors to ante up.
North Korea has nuclear weapons, and missiles that can carry them, if not to the west coast of the continental United States, then at least to South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, and oh yeah, Hawaii.
ReplyDeleteAnd while Ahmadinejad may need to be handled extremely carefully (diplomacy?), he doesn't actually have nuclear weapons yet, and he doesn't appear to be 1/10 the wackjob that Kim Jong Il is.
So why is it that Bush is so worked up about Iran's still hypothetical future nulear threat, and yet he's not advocating taking out North Korea's actual nuclear threat?
And why the fuck does he still pronounce it "nuke-u-lar"?
The chain reaction of evil--wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
ReplyDelete~Martin Luther King, Jr.
Quotable
War should be made a crime, and those who instigate it should be punished as criminals.
-Charles Evans Hughes
And most important, let's go back to our founders. Funny how Scalia and Alito never seem to really familiarize themselves with the true views of our founders despite all their hollow protestations otherwise.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison
It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
James Madison
Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.
James Madison
Liberty may be endangered by the abuse of liberty, but also by the abuse of power.
James Madison
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
James Madison
Reallly makes you weep when you think about how far we have come from those views.
That second Madison quote begins with "Perhaps it is a universal truth ..." Omitting 'perhaps' changes the sentence significantly.
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of being nauseated by these swine. Can't we just feed them to the sleen and get it over with?
ReplyDeleteThe question is whether you can allow this man and his Islamic fascist movement to have nuclear weapons.
ReplyDeleteWhy is that a problem.\? Our man and his Christian facist have nuclear weapons, and where's the problem?
Oops...bad example.
Glen:
ReplyDeleteThank you for all your insights when it comes to this administration. I am sorry to disrupt the party, but how you spell that tramendous psycho-social political machine called Hollywood?
How many more years of the same lowly coward Neville Chamberlain optic is America going to have? Off course, we are appeasers if we want peace.
Kristol and the neocons surely have a great resonnace in the psyche and the spirit of the gulible American as far as the propaganda machine does not stop. After all there is only one Holocaust, all the other are historically irrelevant.
Eyes wide open, I'm back and I remember your nice comment about me a while ago.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I posted a comment to this C&L thing and offer the same resources here that I did there:
Neoconservatives and Propaganda and the misuse of Classified Information.
Sorry Hume's ghost. I copied that from an Internet site which had 50 quotations from James Madison. The "perhaps" wasn't there. Guess the "editor" was an peace activist:) Who can blame him in times like these?
ReplyDeleteso, blaming Hitler, the anti-Jew, instead of blaming Goldstein, a Jew. I'd bet Orwell wishes he would have thought of that one.
ReplyDeleteKristol is nauseating in his arrogance and disdain for accepting responsibility for his political crimes.
Let's blame Kristol instead of Bush. Let history blame Bush and Cheney.
wintermute: Welcome back! I missed your insights recently and look forward to your upcoming posts.
ReplyDeleteto bad moon rising....
ReplyDeleteyou're wrong about Palestinians not settling for less than destroying Israel. They would gladly settle for not being destroyed any more, little by little, as has been going on since 1967. Many times and for many years, the Palestinian people have trusted and lived with the good faith that they would be respected and allowed freedom. That good faith has been destroyed by Israel's and America's actions (and inaction), and they have a right to be resentful. But they do not require Israel's destruction. To think otherwise is really just too convenient for warmongers such as yourself. It's merely your point of rationalization, without which you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. You merely project your own racist desire to destroy 'the other' by your slur. And I sorta doubt you can even understand what I'm talking about you're so wrapped up in your ideology.
Pmain said...
ReplyDelete"I’m not sure what country you are talking about, because it sure isn’t Iraq. Iraq, more specifically, Saddam Hussein signed a cease-fire agreement w/ the US & coalition & broke it over 1000+ times in just firing on US air-craft alone. By the way according to said cease-fire agree the US retained rights to respond militarily for any violation as it saw fit."
The cease fire agreement was negotiated through U.N. resolutions 687-688 which make no mention of any U.S. right to respond militarily as it saw fit to any violation.
Furthermore the U.S. Britain, and intitially France (which later withdrew) unilaterally imposed the no-fly zones without U.N. sanction or approval.
"I guess attempting to assassinate a former President of the US doesn’t count as a threat, invading Kuwait, etc."
The Kuwait invasion was dealt with properly during desert storm.
Rep Ron Paul, Republican member House of Representatives:
Claim: Iraq tried to assassinate President Bush in 1993.
Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq was behind the attack. News reports at the time were skeptical about Kuwaiti assertions that the attack was planned by Iraq against former President Bush.
"let’s not forget the 6 Al Qaeda training camps in Iraq"
The 9/11 commission found no links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaida. Mabe you should tell them you found six al Qaida training camps there. I have no doubt they would be interested in the information that their investigation failed to uncover.
"I guess you also haven’t been kept abreast of the contents of Saddam’s own files recently translated. You know the ones where Saddam was financing & planning attacks on US assets & other countries, supporting terrorist organizations"
http://www.investors.com/editorial
/IBDArticles.asp
?artsec=20&artnum=1&issue=20060407
At present, we're relying too much on translations by bloggers and other amateurs. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich., says the White House has been dragging its feet for fear of embarrassing supposed allies (such as Russia) whose links with Saddam would come under scrutiny.
When you get some official documented translations get back to us.
Wintermute I went to your site and read those posts to which you linked. Your site is brilliant and will be on my list each day to read.
ReplyDeleteI now realize what has happened to America. I have often wondered why many people did not like Reagan when I myself thought him a wonderful man.
What people disliked apparently were the policies and evil machinations that these same monstsrous cynics were formulating behind the scenes. Reagan is known to have concentrated only on the four or five main issues which most interested him, as most Presidents probably do, so they must all be pretty much at the mercy of their advisers and "think tanks" and the people who worm their way into the subdidiary positions and use those positions to devise and dictate the government's policies.
Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Carter, Bush---they all play musical chairs but the powers behind the throne have always been these depraved neoncon bastards and their antecedents. Gris lobo mentioned Robert McNamara on this site and I have been reading up on him. He appears no different than the present neo-cons so even Kennedy, with his belief that seeking out Harward men would lead to enlightened policies was not immune from having delusional madmen dictate foreign policy and get this country into insane military misadventures.
As I have never studied history and never read Mein Kempf, I was shocked to read those passages you quoted.
What is known about whether Hitler really wrote that book or whether someone else could have been the author?
(Karl Rove's grandfather?)
I never would have thought Hitler was a deep thinker with an insight into human nature considering his utter depravity and his monumental malevolence.
But Freud himself had his field been political psychology could not have written a more penetrating analysis of how it is possible to fool and control the masses if one subscribes to an amoral, cynical view of the world which focuses on the fact that most men are indeed not that intelligent.
If I read those passages from Mein Kempf ten years ago when I was still naive I would have not realized Hitler had any particular insight into human psychology.
Now, however, it becomes obvious that the author(s) of that book was hardly a shallow thinker or an ignorant man. As more and more information currently is being revealed detailing how the neocons and their ultimate "brain", Karl Rove, have been using that same exact playbook to dupe the masses into supporting their evil agendas, the parallels are so great that one cannot help but notice that they have completely succeeded in hi-jacking this country by utilizing the very tactics which Mein Kempf itself addresses.
This is pretty scary. Our government is and has been using Mein Kempf (now substituting Islamics for Jews) as their Real Bible for quite some time.
But where Hitler failed, they themselves have succeeded.
And there is no United States to "save us" now.
I am completely horrified. BTW, do any of the Asian rulers use these same tactics?
From Bart at 9:04PM:
ReplyDelete"Which is worse - an preemptive air attack by the US to stop this now or the risk of a nuclear exchange in the Middle East and the hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed?"
And how can you be certain such a 'preemptive' action won't have the same end result?
I believe the likely consequences of such an action have been discusses at length on these comment threads over the last week; none of them are pretty, none of them are neat, none of them end with the bombing.
Or have you simply not been paying attention?
If so, you have yet to answer why the US loosing all international creditability and being isolated diplomatically, Iran's international standing dramatically improved after being 'victimized' so, the entire Middle East radicalized as never before against the US, and the very real threat of a terror campaign against the US and its citizens and interests overseas that would make the Khamer Rouge look like amatuers...how all *that* is the less bad option.
In defense of pmain, their comment at 7:13PM does raise a few relevant issues.
ReplyDeleteIts inarguable that the Hussein regime was in violation, multiple times over, of various provisions of the 1991 Ceasefire. It is equally inarguable that he had managed to maintain such ambiguity about Iraq's WMD capacity that our intelligence services (for the most part) were erring on the side of caution on the issue.
The first could have been used as a decent, supportable pretext for the invasion; instead the Bush Administration used the second, and we have seen a fairly steady stream of data and investigation that disproves that pretext ever since.
I'd also like to see one decently-sourced story that conclusively shows Hussein was directly financing any terrorist group or network directed to attack US interests or persons. To date, I haven't come across one where the reporting or source isn't suspect.
As to the 'six Al Qaeda training camps', I believe those actually belonged to the (avowedly anti-Hussein) Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad organization, founded by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an informal ally/oftentimes rival group to Bin Laden's Al Qaeda prior to the two groups formal merging in late 2004 as direct result of the US invasion and occupation. It should also be pointed out those camps and the Jama'at network were operating in the northern regions of the country, Kurdish-controlled regions where Hussein's actual control was minimal to nonexistant.
Then there's that 'document dump' pmain, Bart and others refer to so glowingly, which upon reading it doesn't contain anything particularly groundbreaking or remotely useful. Beyond a fresh translation of an internal memorandum from Hussein's intelligence service basically bemoaning their lack of HUMIT sources, evidence the Russians tried to slip Hussein the US battle plans just before "Iraqi Freedom" kicked off, and material stating Hussein wanted al-Zarqawi arrested and liquidated, there's really nothing more there.
pmain continues with:
"The firing on US aircraft alone disproves your “not a threat” meme."
The question that should immediately be asked is "firing with what?" Leftover, 1970s-vintage SAMs? WWII-era antiaircraft guns? Slingshots?
I fail to see how their taking pot-shots at our reconaissance or air superiority flights constitute a threat to the continential US.
Perhaps this is where our viewpoints diverge: I prefer to focus on things that actually, directly threaten the security of the continential US and our economy, whereas you apparently use a somewhat looser framework with which to view what does or does not present a 'threat'.
Guess we'll have to leave it for history to decide which viewpoint proves more productive.
From Bart at 9:04PM:
ReplyDelete"In short, the US may not take action against one pathological regime unless we simultaneously attack all pathological regimes. That ridiculous notion is simply an excuse for inaction."
Or it is a recognition (a) of our military's limitations, (b) that attacking another country for no other reason than it uses 'bad words' sets a supremely bad prescedent for future action, and (c) that there are still other options to dealing with such regimes that pay better dividens in the long-run.
I leave it to those who actually think with their brain on this one to determine which interpretation is the more rational.
This doesn't detract from a very well written post, but you are mischaracterizing Goodwin's Law:
ReplyDeleteAs an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
He was not saying necessarily that it automatically indicates a concession in a debate, but that the comparision to that National Socialist party is eventually assured.
Just gotta love the morons that say somehow it is not right or "proper" to disucss this in economic terms...
ReplyDeleteIt's like screaming, "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!"
You know, the guy that is stealing BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS!
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 9:04PM: "Which is worse - an preemptive air attack by the US to stop this now or the risk of a nuclear exchange in the Middle East and the hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed?"
And how can you be certain such a 'preemptive' action won't have the same end result?
1) Iran does not have nukes yet.
2) If Iran managed to get nukes after the air campaign, why would the US air campaign make it more likely that Iran would attack Israel?
...you have yet to answer why the US loosing all international creditability and being isolated diplomatically, Iran's international standing dramatically improved after being 'victimized' so, the entire Middle East radicalized as never before against the US, and the very real threat of a terror campaign against the US and its citizens and interests overseas that would make the Khamer Rouge look like amatuers...how all *that* is the less bad option.
1) What loss of "international credibility?" Apart from Israel, we are the only nation possibly willing to back up diplomacy with a credible military option. Our only loss of credibility in Iran's eyes is that the mulluhs think that the anti-war movement in the US will save them from the military option.
2) What "isolation diplomatically?" Rice is doing a superb job dragging the Euros to pursue actual action in the UN. The problem is Russia and China.
3) What proof do you have that Iran's standing has been raised in this process?
4) The ME is not being further radicalized. al Qaeda bombings are down in Iraq and they are being reduced to using boys to conduct suicide bombings. That doesn't sound like success in recruiting.
I'd also like to see one decently-sourced story that conclusively shows Hussein was directly financing any terrorist group or network directed to attack US interests or persons. To date, I haven't come across one where the reporting or source isn't suspect.
there's that 'document dump' pmain, Bart and others refer to so glowingly, which upon reading it doesn't contain anything particularly groundbreaking or remotely useful. Beyond a fresh translation of an internal memorandum from Hussein's intelligence service basically bemoaning their lack of HUMIT sources, evidence the Russians tried to slip Hussein the US battle plans just before "Iraqi Freedom" kicked off, and material stating Hussein wanted al-Zarqawi arrested and liquidated, there's really nothing more there.
No matter how you spin it, Iraqi documents showing al Qaeda in Iraq recruiting fighters to kill Americans in Afghanistan, Iraq and al Qaeda discussing killing foreigner in Saudi Arabia, Iraq financing al Qaeda in the Philippines, Iraq training foreign suicide bombers, Iraq training 8000 terrorists before the war, Iraq planing a terror campaign against the West set to start in the July after the liberation and several other documents of meetings between Iraq and al Qeada are all things we did not know before these documents were translated. There are 30,000 boxes of documents to go.
From Bart at 9:04PM: "In short, the US may not take action against one pathological regime unless we simultaneously attack all pathological regimes. That ridiculous notion is simply an excuse for inaction."
Or it is a recognition (a) of our military's limitations, (b) that attacking another country for no other reason than it uses 'bad words' sets a supremely bad prescedent for future action, and (c) that there are still other options to dealing with such regimes that pay better dividens in the long-run.
a) Glenn did not argue that we were not capable of conducting an air campaign against Iraq.
b) Iran is all but boasting that they will build nuclear weapons. The 50,000 centrifuges they are building is far more than what they would need for a civilian program. Once they get nukes, it will be too late to do anything. We do have a bad precedent in this area - the appeasement of and inaction toward North Korea while they finished their nuclear program. Now we have a slasher film aficionado building ICBM's to deliver these weapons to our cities.
c) We have about finished the diplomatic route in dealing with Iran. Russia and China have both stopped the Security Council from acting with veto threats. I am willing to hear what your non-military option is to prevent Iran from getting nukes.
Re: "...it's truly amazing that our country has been led for the last five years by this most simplistic and stunted understanding of the world."
ReplyDeleteThat is the level and quality of education most people in this country have been getting.
From Bart at 11:46AM:
ReplyDelete"No matter how you spin it, Iraqi documents showing al Qaeda in Iraq recruiting fighters to kill Americans in Afghanistan, Iraq and al Qaeda discussing killing foreigner in Saudi Arabia, Iraq financing al Qaeda in the Philippines, Iraq training foreign suicide bombers, Iraq training 8000 terrorists before the war, Iraq planing a terror campaign against the West set to start in the July after the liberation and several other documents of meetings between Iraq and al Qeada are all things we did not know before these documents were translated. There are 30,000 boxes of documents to go."
I'd like to say your trying, but I can't.
Which documents, precisely, show *any* of this? I have seen the ones that have been reliable, expertly translated to date. None of this is in there.
But as you say, there are only another 30,000 boxes to go. Maybe you should withhold declaring victory *before* all the facts are in?
Bart continues:
"The ME is not being further radicalized. al Qaeda bombings are down in Iraq and they are being reduced to using boys to conduct suicide bombings. That doesn't sound like success in recruiting."
You're making the serious mistake (once again) of thinking this network as a quick-reaction paramilitary force exclusive to Iraq where its presence is known purely the public tempo of its operations.
The hallmark of Al Qaeda has been patience. The attacks on 9/11 were nearly a full decade from conception to execution and went through a host of revisions and set-backs. Simply because Al Qaeda's operations in Iraq (if they can even be called that) appear to be winding down is no indication the network itself doesn't have new, major attacks in the pipeline.
As for 'recruiting', its not as if these cells or the network is handing out membership cards or uniforms. I though you were smarter than this, Bart.
The Iranian nuclear issue (like the North Korean one) are still playing out, as you've said. But tell me, what will it tell the world if the United States initiates military operations against yet another country simply for the 'crime' of seeking to improve its economy and international standing by pursuing a technically advanced, resource-intensive research progam as nuclear power demands? Like it or not, Iran hasn't attacked the US mainland and hasn't engaged in more than rehtorical violence (and bankrolled a few proxies) against Israel.
You tell me, how will such a scenario play out if we start bombing?
In either case, you are dealing with a messianic leader of a quasi religious fascist movement with delusions of grandeur.
ReplyDeleteHey! Leave Bush out of this! Don' go dissing the Commander-In-Chief when, yaknow, there's a war on....
Cheers,
Reuel Marc Gerecht wrote a very good and sobering analysis of the alternatives the US faces with Iran.
ReplyDeleteI'd say that anyone who wants to talk about Iran ought to first go read Stephen Kinzser's excellent book "All The Shan's Men", and then maybe they'd start to have the first clue as to what went wrong in Iran, and now Iraq (apparently Kinzer's not on the WH approved reading list), and probably Iran again....
Needless to say, HWSNBN hasn't read it, nor will he.....
Cheers,
Pmain said:
ReplyDelete"I'm a lifelong Democrat but....."
He thinks we're stoopid. His mistake.
Cheers,
[Glenn said]: "There are lots of maniacal madmen in the world. The idea that we are going to go to war with everyone of them is as crazy and irrational as any of the statements which supposedly justify the wars."
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN pretended ignorance]: "In short, the US may not take action against one pathological regime unless we simultaneously attack all pathological regimes. That ridiculous notion is simply an excuse for inaction."
Oh, such a pretty "straw man". HWSNBN ignores the point, which is that such horrible tyrants can't be all that inimical to the U.S. security interests (and thereby justification for outrageous lawlessness by the maladministration because, "After 9/11, everything's different, you know") when they're all over the place and we've even propped them up on occasion. Thus, the argument for "F*** [them], we're taking [them] out" can't be used as some kind of exceptional circumstance for engaging in "pre-emptive war" -- that is, translated from Chickenhawkese into English, American global hegemony and aggression. The United States can't be held responsible for the actions of other regimes that it has no control over (although one might suggest that it does bear some responsibility for those it propped up or put into place), but the U.S. should itself conform its own actions to what is right, not only from a moral standpoint, but also as a practical one as an example to others. Self-defence is (arguably) justified, but in the absence of such a basis, war should be shunned like the plague. It should be, to quote that eminently rational thinker, Dubya, "a last resort", and done reluctantly rather than with the glee of "Bring 'em on" and "Feels good!"
Cheers,