Friday, April 21, 2006

Proven wisdom

One of the most bizarre aspects of our current political debates is that the very people who were most glaringly and incessantly wrong about virtually everything prior to the invasion of Iraq are still held out as some sort of wise foreign policy experts. The converse of that distorted principle is that those who were most right about Iraq-related issues are still treated as subversive lepers who are unfit for decent company, as well as unfit to be heard in mainstream media outlets and television talk shows.

Few people, if any, were as right about the critical pre-invasion issues as Scott Ritter was. Back in September, 2002, Ritter was trying to tell anyone who would listen that Iraq had no WMD's, and accordingly said:

My country seems on the verge of making an historic mistake…. My government is making a case for war against Iraq that is built upon fear and ignorance, as opposed to the reality of truth and fact.

Ritter was not just some newspaper columnist like Charles Krauthammer or free floating pundit like Michael Ledeen. He was a former Marine officer, top aide to Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf during the first Gulf War, and a tenacious weapons inspector working inside Iraq for the U.N. It is difficult to imagine someone with greater credentials and credibility who ought to have been listened on those issues.

But in a vivid reminder of just how ugly and corrupt were the tactics used by Bush followers at the time to crush any dissent, Ritter was virtually excluded from any mainstream setting. He was branded a subversive, a traitor, and the "new Jane Fonda." The media -- while it venerated the Krauthammers and Bill Kristols and Fred Barnes's and the slew of other know-nothings who paraded forth to spew fictitious pro-war talking points -- cooperated enthusiastically with the smears on Ritter, all but treating him like some sort of untouchable traitor, notwithstanding the fact that, until 2004, he had voted only for Republicans, not to mention that he been an outstanding Marine officer. Nothing shielded those who dissented from the Bush agenda from charges of treason and subversion.

And by virtue of this now-familiar Bush worshipping tactic, one of the very few individuals who was actually voicing accurate and truthful observations about Iraq prior to the invasion was shut out of the debate, other than to be held up for universal mockery.

Ritter has just given an interview (h/t Taylor Marsh) to San Diego Citybeat (the national media, with a payroll full of people who were completely misinformed and wrong about Iraq, still treats Ritter like a crank). The interview is well worth reading. It seems obvious that if there was a great debate over whether X was true, and most people insisted that X was true while a handful of knowledgeable people insisted that X was untrue, and it turned out that, all along, X was, in fact, untrue, a rational person -- the next time a similar debate arose -- would be more inclined to listen to those who were right, and less inclined to listen to those who were wrong. For that reason alone, I think it's worth listening to what Ritter has to say (and not all that worth listening to anything Bill Kristol, The New Republic, Victor Davis Hanson, et al. have to say).

Initially, here is what Ritter has to say about the manipulation of Americans by the administration with fearmongering and constant invocations of war:

QUESTION: What is it about Americans that allows them to get so bent out of shape when you start questioning the government in a time of war?

RITTER: I’ll say ignorance. How many Americans have read the Constitution and know the Constitution, live the Constitution, breathe the Constitution, define their existence as Americans by the Constitution? Very few. And so what happens is, Americans have no concept of what citizenship is, what it is they’re supposed to serve. Many Americans have become so addicted to a lifestyle that I say they’re better consumers than they are citizens. And it’s these consumers who have wrapped themselves in a cocoon of comfort and who have basically abrogated their responsibilities of citizenship to the government, and as long as the government keeps them waddling down the path to prosperity, they don’t want to rock the boat. And they will go out and attack those who do rock the boat—those who challenge authority.

If you read the Constitution, you’ll be struck by the first words: “We the people of the United States.” And yet it sickens me where Americans will say, in the name of security, they will give up their constitutional rights. Warrantless wiretapping—it’s against the law! This is the sort of issue that should bring Americans streaming into the streets, saying, “Not on my watch.” If your definition of patriotism is blind subservience to governmental authority, then you’ve just defined those Germans who supported Hitler, the Italians who supported Mussolini.

Ritter also believes that the essence of the administration's conflict with Iran has nothing to do with whether Iran ceases its enrichment efforts and everything to do with the fact that the administration is resolved to change the ruling regime in Iran:

That’s why when I speak of Iran, I say be careful of falling into the trap of nonproliferation, disarmament, weapons of mass destruction; this is a smokescreen. The Bush administration does not have policy of disarmament vis-à-vis Iran. They do have a policy of regime change. If we had a policy of disarmament, we would have engaged in unilateral or bilateral discussions with the Iranians a long time ago. But we put that off the table because we have no desire to resolve the situation we use to facilitate the military intervention necessary to achieve regime change.

It’s the exact replay of the game plan used for Iraq, where we didn’t care what Saddam did, what he said, what the weapons inspectors found. We created the perception of a noncompliant Iraq, and we stuck with that perception, selling that perception until we achieved our ultimate objective, which was invasion that got rid of Saddam. With Iran, we are creating the perception of a noncompliant Iran, a threatening Iran. It doesn’t matter what the facts are. Now that we have successfully created that perception, the Bush administration will move forward aggressively until it achieves its ultimate objective, which is regime change.

It is difficult to dismiss that view -- very difficult. It was readily apparent even as early as mid-2002 that we were going to invade Iraq no matter what Saddam did, no matter what happened with the inspections process, etc. The goal was not to rid Iraq of weapons but to change the government regardless of what weapons it had.

Ritter thinks that the same dynamic is applicable to Iran. And given that everything else seems exactly the same between the two run-ups to the war -- from the fact that it's an election year to the transparent use of the same exact pro-war rationale spewed from the same exact sources to the administration's glaring lack of interest in finding non-war means to achieve our ostensible disarmament goals -- a strong case can certainly be made that our objective in threatening war with Iran is war with Iran, rather than any form of disarmament.

Ritter also has a lot to say about the current state of Iran's alleged efforts to acquire nuclear weapons and the ability of the military to wage war against Iran notwithstanding our being tied down in Iraq. Ritter isn't entitled to a presumption that he's right about everything, but it seems beyond dispute that he's earned the right to be heard and listened to - certainly a lot more than the standard roster of pundits and blowhards who led us into Iraq and who, with the help of an adoring and glorifying media, are attempting to do the same with Iran.

200 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:44 AM

    Wonder what our resident contrarians will make of this.

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  2. Anonymous11:50 AM

    Just read the first graf. I anxiously await the publication of your book. Reading the rest.

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  3. Ritter isn't entitled to a presumption that he's right about everything, but it seems beyond dispute that he's earned the right to be heard and listened to...

    Exactly. The same interview is also interesting about the failures of the anti-war movement; he can't figure out why it seems a set of squabbling little initiatives, unable to unify around a message or theme. I detect a certain lack of experience with the difficulties of building of democratic citizen coalitions in those remarks. Nonetheless, I think he'd be right, essentially, to indict the antiwar folks with the same failing as the media: we take the bait on particular instances of imperial meglomania, failing to confront the underlying intentional effort by the neocons to tear down any rule of law.

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  4. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Ritter was also the first to say we may be bombing Iran in the Spring of 2006. That was about a year ago. Maybe less. It was a speech at a symposium in Olympia, WA., if memory serves.

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  5. Anonymous12:02 PM

    RITTER: I’ll say ignorance. How many Americans have read the Constitution and know the Constitution, live the Constitution, breathe the Constitution, define their existence as Americans by the Constitution? Very few.

    I'll agree. It was a number of years ago and I have not been able to find any reference to it on the net, too lazy to get my ass down to the university library near me, but I do recall reading about this when I was in college. I think it was a Michigan study. They put kids outside of supermarkets and such with a "petition" that was essentially a repeal of the Bill of Rights, but cleverly disgiused. Over 70% of the respondents were in favor of repealing many them.

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  6. Glenn: Ijust got a copy of the new (pardon me everybody) Cowboys & Indians where there's a great article on Sandra Day O'Connor. In it it states that her plans for the future include acting on an American Bar Association commission explaining the separation of powers and the role of judges ...
    On Scott Ritter, his book is great and to deny that he knows his stuff is to do so at your own peril as Christopher Hitchens found out when he tried some months ago to go one on one with him. Ritter: "This is a war that's not worth the life of one American because it's a war based on a lie. And no amount of revisionism will make those lies true," he said "And if you (Hitchens) support this ridiculous notion that the ends justifies the means, then come up here, throw your passport on the stage and get the hell out of my country because that's unAmerican" Whew!

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  7. Anonymous12:08 PM

    Has anybody actually read this interview. I agree he's got some good insights and opinions (particularly about our increased glorification of war and the military).

    I'm a little disturbed by his report that the Pentagon is drawing up plans for an incursion into Iran, via Azerbaijan. Such a maneuver is not without precedent (Operation Market-Garden in 1944 comes to mind), but it seems...a little out there, doesn't it?

    Just a thought.

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  8. I read some of the literature on the pros and cons of striking Iran about 18 months ago when I was researching for the debate team I coach. The "con" articles were some of the scariest, most persuasive articles I'd ever read. The pro articles from Michael Ledeen-types looked exactly like the crap we heard from the Krauthammer-types before the Iraq war.

    As if that weren't bad enough, more evidence is pointing to the possibility that we'll use tactical nukes.

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  9. What I got from Ritters interview when I first read it yesterday is the idea that people are only now against the war because the US is losing.

    He suggests that if the US were winning this "war," then most people would not be against it, even though, as he notes, the "war" is and was undertaken under false pretenses. It is, by all measures, an illegal and unjustified foreign adventure. This fact of public ignorance and underlying support for the US if it is winning a war is what disturbs Ritter. It also accounts for why people would actually support a war against Iran.

    I have dealt with this issue before. People wanted to attack Iraq out of a complex despair over 911, ignorance, and simple apathy. They can be manipulated--allow themselves to be manipulated--because of underlying social and personal problems that no commentator besides those on the far left have begun to investigate.

    These deeper underlying problems account as well for why an anti-war movement cannot and will not appear. The social and cultural fragmentation have so divided people against each other and even against themselves.

    Self-satisfied with its largesse and consumer life-style, Americans are divided by the fact that they actually benefit from the kind of economic exploitation that the "war" on Iraq/Iran is meant to maintain. At the same time, the public is unconsciously aware that the price paid for this lifestyle is the exploitation of humans whose lives of despair and poverty they do not want to know about. But it is this exploitation that goes some way in explaining the hatred and animosity directed at the US.

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  10. Anonymous12:17 PM

    Glenn:

    There should be a blog soley to collate the real pundits who have been accurate, prescient, and both rigorous and thorough in their analysis and predictions.

    The site could be called American Oracles and, as at Media Matters, it could be searchable by name (The Oracles) or by topic.

    The idea would be to establish their bona fides as reliable authorities and trusted sources of information/predictions/advice by proving their track records with a one-stop-source for links.

    It would be a non-partisan site and would include anyone whose record proved them to be worthy of the public's ear.

    If the site needed an edge, there could also be a list on "Non-Oracles" who had a proven record of being wrong - again from both sides of the aisle.

    I know this information is out there on the internet and in the blogosphere, but I think it might be useful to be able to go to a single site and say, "Hmmm, I wonder what Al Gore's track record is on all subjects?" and then scroll down through a list of links:

    (hypothetical examples only here)

    - 04/28/98 Gore predicts coming importance of Internet
    - 06/15/01 Gore warns of Global Warming and crisis in the Arctic

    There might even be a mechanism for evaluating by percentage or "four oracles out of five".

    There is a lot of cogent analysis being done, but it is swamped, as you accurately point out, by the bloviating of blowhards.

    Anyone think this is a viable and useful concept, or is it already covered sufficiently by the current blogorati?

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  11. Isn't there an interesting parallel between the uber-patriots who don't know the first thing about the Constitution, and the uber-Christians who continually repudiate the teachings of Jesus Christ?

    I've been following Ritter's work for years, and I respect not only his expertise on WMD's and Middle East affairs, but also his more recent advocacy of non-violent foreign policy solutions.

    And anonymous is right, Ritter predicted military action against Iran, I think as far back as Fall 2005.

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  12. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Wiki entry on nuke bunker busters links to this from Jane's, as well as other sources.

    You have alll seen the animation from Concerned Scientists by now.

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  13. Why try and re-invent the wheel vis-a-vis our somnambulent response to the rise of neo-con fascism? I have my 103-inch flat screen TV in the basement of my gated community tract mansion. In spite of exceeding the most egregious failures and outrages of every previous president, George W. Bush still has the support of 33% of Americans. Only gas more than $5 a gallon can bring down this regime.

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  14. I love Ritter but couldn't help but think he was channeling a little Captain Kirk in this interview:

    Look at these three words written larger than all the rest, and with special pride never written before or since -- tall words, proudly saying "We the people" .. these words and the words that follow ... must apply to everyone or they mean nothing.

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  15. Anonymous12:53 PM

    The reason American's don't know the constitution and thus don't know what their responsibilities are is because we have turned our school from being in the service of us (that being to help created people who are mature in their ways of government for, of and by the people) to being in the service of business.

    Go to school, get a job. That's the message. If you don't go to school you can't get a "good" job. And it comes full circle when you get that job at the school.

    Yes, lets keep funding our schools with Pepsi and Coke machine revenues! Idiots!

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  16. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  17. Glenn:

    Do you really want to hitch your anti-war wagon to Scott Ritter's shredded credibility?

    In 1998, Scott Ritter resigned from UNSCOM in protest that they were not doing enough to find Iraqi WMD which he was sure existed.

    Here are two statements Ritter made in 1998 from http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/ritter.htm.

    The first is from an interview on the National Public Radio program, 'Morning Edition.' This was on August 28th, just after he resigned from UNSCOM: [5]

    [Excerpt from NPR starts here]

    RITTER: [...] The problem with disarming Iraq right now is that Iraq has failed across the board. There are major questions in chemical. Iraq has a VX program. VX is one of the most deadly substances on the face of the Earth. And we've uncovered this. They refuse to even address the issue.

    We have major problems with stocks of chemical weapons and chemical agents that are unaccounted for. The entire biological program, which (unintelligible) horrible weapons, is a black hole, as Richard Butler says. Ballistic missiles -- there's absolute concern that they still retain the capability to deliver chemical and biological weapons through ballistic missiles that they haven't declared.


    [Excerpt from NPR ends here]

    The second Hawk statement is from an interview on the US television network, ABC. It’s from the 'Good Morning America’ program, November 2, 1998: [6]

    [Excerpt from 'Good Morning America' starts here]

    […]

    Lisa McRee: What are they hiding?

    SCOTT RITTER: They are hiding their retained capabilities in biological, chemical, nuclear weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems.

    Lisa McRee: Can you be more specific about what you believe they have?

    Scott Ritter: I think one of the things that has been in the news recently is the VX nerve agent, one of the most deadly substances known to mankind. Iraq clearly produced this agent in large quantities and put it on ballistic missile warheads. They have lied about that, they have said that they have not done this, despite the fact that we have the proof in our hands.

    Lisa McRee: What's our appropriate response, then?

    Scott Ritter: It's time to call the game for what it is. This is Saddam Hussein's attempt to keep weapons of mass destruction and get sanctions lifted. Saddam is linked with these weapons, there is no way of dealing with the weapons without dealing with Saddam.

    Lisa McRee: But do what? Should we have a military strike against Iraq? Should it be unilateral or should we do it only with allies? What do you suggest?

    Scott Ritter: These are issues that have to be addressed by the national security policy team in Washington, DC, that's what they get paid the big bucks for.

    Lisa McRee: What do you think will work, though? You've been there.

    Scott Ritter: I know what won't work, continuing to provide concessions to Iraq only feeds their strength. Iraq is in charge of this game right now. They are the ones calling the shots. It's time for the United Nations, the [national] security council of the United States to seize the initiative to start taking more proactive measures to counter Saddam Hussein. And whatever measures they take, they are going to have to be decisive and not the half steps that have been taken so far.

    Lisa McRee: Are you talking about economic sanctions or are you talking about an attack [i.e., war]?

    Scott Ritter: Economic sanctions won't work, we know that. Iraq has turned economic sanctions around and used it against the United Nations and United States. I think you are coming to the obvious point, but that is a decision that the national security team has to make, not Scott Ritter.

    [Excerpt from 'Good Morning America' ends here]


    In short, in 1998, Scott Ritter was calling for war for regime change in Iraq.

    However, by 2002, he had changed his tune 180 degrees to become the anti-war crowd's favorite Marine before Murtha called for the US to cut and run.

    Why the change?

    It cannot be because of information he gained while working at UNSCOM. Ritter quit in 1998 to call for war and had nothing to do with the arms inspection process between 1998 and 2002.

    That leaves two likely options, neither of which do anything to repair his shredded credibility.

    1) Ritter is a Donkey partisan echoing the Donkey line at the time of his statements.

    Remember, in 1998, Bill Clinton was laying out the same exact case George Bush laid out in 2002-03 and was rattling the US saber about regime change. The Donkey leadership in Congress which now claims to have always opposed the Iraq War was echoing Clinton dutifully.

    However, by 2002, the Donkey's in Congress did a 180 on their 1998 position and a majority now opposed intervention in Iraq by an Elephant President.

    2) Ritter is simply a media camera hound and was giving the Donkey media what they wanted at the time.

    In 1998, the Donkey media was echoing the Clinton line against Iraq.

    In 2002, much of the Donkey media was questioning the same case against Iraq put forth by Bush.

    Take your pick of Ritter's reasoning, but the fact remains that he a gross hypocrite with zero credibility.

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  18. Anonymous1:01 PM

    Not to be to disagreeable as to when we knew we were going to war, but here is what our good president said during his first campaign. Pay attention to the countries mentioned:

    Concerning his war mongering:
    In our world today, rogue tyrants threaten international peace and stability. Dozens of conflicts worldwide are real-time reminders of the fragility of peace.
    We see the contagious spread of missile technology and weapons of mass destruction. We know that this era of American preeminence is also an era of car bombers and plutonium merchants and cyber terrorists and drug cartels and unbalanced dictators – all the unconventional and invisible threats of new technologies and old hatreds.
    It will require firmness with regimes like North Korea and Iraq – regimes that hate our values and resent our success.
    America will not retreat from the world.
    Iran has made rapid strides in its missile program, and Iraq persists in a race to do the same.
    Add to this the threat of biological, chemical and nuclear terrorism –barbarism emboldened by technology. These weapons can be delivered, not just by ballistic missiles, but by everything from airplanes to cruise missiles, from shipping containers to suitcases.
    And when direct threats to America are discovered, I know that the best defense can be a strong and swift offense – including the use of Special Operations Forces and long-range strike capabilities.
    The best way to keep the peace is to redefine war on our terms.
    I know this is a world of hard choices and new tasks. A world of terror and missiles and madmen. A world requiring, not just might, but wisdom.
    New threats are replacing old enemies. Unstable dictators seek weapons of mass destruction. Regional power grabs become global crises.
    Even in this time of pride and promise, America has determined enemies, who hate our values and resent our success – terrorists and crime syndicates and drug cartels and unbalanced dictators. The Empire has passed, but evil remains.
    We must protect our homeland and our allies against missiles and terror and blackmail.
    Armies and missiles are not stopped by stiff notes of condemnation. They are held in check by strength and purpose and the promise of swift punishment.
    Sometimes the defenders of freedom must show patience as well as resolution. But that patience comes of confidence, not compromise.
    American foreign policy cannot be founded on fear.
    He must check the contagious spread of weapons of mass destruction, and the means to deliver them.
    The emerging security threats to the United States, its friends and allies, and even to Russia, now come from rogue states, terrorist groups and other adversaries seeking weapons of mass destruction, and the means to deliver them.
    On the issue of nuclear weapons, the United States has an opportunity to lead to a safer world – both to defend against nuclear threats and reduce nuclear tensions.
    On the Clinton/Gore watch, Saddam Hussein's Iraq has become a major supplier of oil to America.
    This means that one of our worst enemies is gaining more and more control over our country's economic future. The current crisis in the Middle East underscores the danger of American reliance on Saddam Hussein's oil.
    Energy security will be a priority of my foreign policy. I will rebuild American influence and credibility with the members of OPEC, and with nations in the Persian Gulf.
    We remain in a contest of will and purpose, with enemies who hate America, and target those who defend her.
    We must always be prepared. And those who attack our nation and its people must always be punished
    We will confront weapons of mass destruction, so that a new century is spared new horrors.
    We will meet aggression and bad faith with resolve and strength.

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  19. Anonymous1:08 PM

    From Bart at 12:57PM:

    "That leaves two likely options, neither of which do anything to repair his shredded credibility."

    You neglected option three:

    Ritter carefully reviewed the available data on Iraq's weapons programs - including the many dissents, gaps, and footnotes - from US and other national intelligence services and ultimately came to the conclusion (since borne out) that Iraq's WMD programs were essentially defunct. His resignation in 1998 notwithstanding (and based on opinions he perhaps now regrets), his stated positions have been one based not wishful thinking but on available evidence. Hence his turnaround.

    I suggest you actually read the interview before responding, Bart. Your own creditability isn't all that good, either.

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  20. Anonymous1:14 PM

    Take your pick of Ritter's reasoning, but the fact remains that he a gross hypocrite with zero credibility.

    If that's true, what does that make Dick Cheney, a tin foil hat wearing wingnut?

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  21. Bart: In short, in 1998, Scott Ritter was calling for war for regime change in Iraq.

    However, by 2002, he had changed his tune 180 degrees to become the anti-war crowd's favorite Marine before Murtha called for the US to cut and run.

    Why the change?


    Ritter to Time magazine:

    In 1998, you said Saddam had "not nearly disarmed." Now you say he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Why did you change your mind?

    Ritter: I have never given Iraq a clean bill of health! Never! Never! I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has reconstituted WMD capability with anything that remotely resembles substantive fact. To say that Saddam's doing it is in total disregard to the fact that if he gets caught he's a dead man and he knows it. Deterrence has been adequate in the absence of inspectors but this is not a situation that can succeed in the long term. In the long term you have to get inspectors back in.

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  22. Anonymous1:18 PM

    Paul Craig Roberts was another person who is now being eviscerated on frontpage.mag, etc., and who was so totally correct in his predictions from the beginning, especially as regards the delusional activities of the neocons.

    Neocons admit they've blown it. Is the draft next?

    The alliance of neocons with white southern evangelicals is not enough to control US foreign policy. Sooner or later even the brain-dead are going to realize that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, was not a threat to us (until neocons got us mired down there), and had nothing to do with the events of September 11.

    We spent a fortune attacking a country that had done us no harm, killing tens of thousands of its people, and giving the US a black eye as an aggressor that starts wars on the basis of lies and disinformation.


    From Aug, 2003

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  23. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 12:57PM: "That leaves two likely options, neither of which do anything to repair his shredded credibility."

    You neglected option three:

    Ritter carefully reviewed the available data on Iraq's weapons programs - including the many dissents, gaps, and footnotes - from US and other national intelligence services and ultimately came to the conclusion (since borne out) that Iraq's WMD programs were essentially defunct. His resignation in 1998 notwithstanding (and based on opinions he perhaps now regrets), his stated positions have been one based not wishful thinking but on available evidence. Hence his turnaround.


    What publicly available intelligence reports did Ritter rely upon which proved any change in Iraq's WMD posture since 1998? Ritter would not be privy to any classified reports unless someone is violating the US code. In any case, Ritter does not cite any changed data.

    Your own creditability isn't all that good, either.

    I am utterly consistent in my stands. I supported Clinton's call to remove Saddam in 1998 because it was the right thing to do even though I knew Clinton to be a felon deserving of impeachment.

    Did you also support Clinton's call for regime change at that time like almost all of your Donkey Reps and Senators?

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  24. Ritter to CNN's make-up job, Kyra Phillips: "Ha! Excuse me; I went to war against Saddam Hussein in 1991. I spent seven years of my life in this country hunting down weapons of mass destruction. I believe I've done "a lot about Saddam Hussein," he replied. "You show me where Saddam Hussein can be substantiated as a threat against the United States and I'll go to war again. I'm not going to sit back idly and let anybody threaten the United States. But at this point in time, no one has made a case based upon facts that Saddam Hussein or his government is a threat to the United States worthy of war."

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  25. Ritter to Time magazine:

    In 1998, you said Saddam had "not nearly disarmed." Now you say he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Why did you change your mind?

    Ritter: I have never given Iraq a clean bill of health! Never! Never! I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has reconstituted WMD capability with anything that remotely resembles substantive fact.


    Lie #1. Compare this statement to what Ritter said in 1998 about existing, not reconstituted, WMD.

    To say that Saddam's doing it is in total disregard to the fact that if he gets caught he's a dead man and he knows it. Deterrence has been adequate in the absence of inspectors but this is not a situation that can succeed in the long term. In the long term you have to get inspectors back in.

    Flip Flop #2. Compare this statement with Ritter's 1998 statement that the only way to deal with the Iraqi WMD threat is by dealing with Saddam.

    At least Time called him on this.

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  26. I have long maintained that a significant number of people do themselves a huge intellectual injury by putting the ideological cart before the empirical horse. By this I mean that they prefer their opinion of right and wrong to colour their perception of true and false. By doing so, they cripple their ability to deal with reality. Thus, they often find themselves 'glaringly and incessantly wrong' without recourse to any corrective mechanism.
    The prime example of this is religion. I have seen many bumper stickers that read, "I believe in God because I believe in miracles. I believe in miracles because I believe in God." One might extrapolate to the conclusion that many people believe in George Bush because they believe in WMDs, and vice versa. It is a belief system utterly divorced from reality.
    Fundamentalist Christians believe in the second coming of Christ "because they believe the Bible." However, when you point out that the Bible predicts the second coming to have been imminent in St. Paul's lifetime, they come up with some lame extra-Biblical argument to support their continuing eschatological expectance.
    One can see clearly why the neocons chose the Religious Right as their central group of support. Once they had enlisted into the Bushist doctrine, they were intellectually immune from any counter-argument. That's why 33% still support an idiot who has no visible support for his policies.

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  27. Anonymous1:34 PM

    Going back further, this is from 2002. If someone else is aware of any writer back then writing these same things, let me know. Otherwise, I would say PCR was the best predictor of what would happen of anyone around:

    At Home And Abroad, This War Is A Leap Into The Dark

    The midterm election has given us evil twins--a Department of Homeland Security and a Middle Eastern war. The unintended consequences will be costly to Americans and come back to haunt Republicans and conservatives.

    {snip}

    The Dept. of Homeland Security will define “terrorist” to fit its needs. Such a costly department will need to justify its budget, and the definition will take on wide latitude. The department’s main achievements will be the diminution of American civil rights, censorship of the Internet, and gun control.

    Federal police forces will be able to liquidate any group by declaring it “terrorist,” just as Janet Reno exterminated the Branch Davidians by declaring them “child abusers,” and FBI and BATF agents murdered Randy Weaver’s family by declaring him “armed and dangerous.”


    The only thing that has not happened yet is the draft, but unless we stop this juggernaut, it too is coming. My own opinion is that the gov. is eyeing all those illegel immigrants as future cannon fodder. That has already started happening.

    Personally, I think PCR is an oracle. Not only did he call this war right from the beginning, expose the lies which were used to lead us into it, identify who was behind it--the neocons--but he also predicted each and every thing that would happen at home to limit our civil liberties and start the descent into dictatorship. He also identified that nobody would point out what was happening--not the press, not the Dems, not anybody--until the people themselves started speaking out, which mercifully is exactly what is happening now.

    Naturally, he also wrote about the role of the Internet. What's his home town? Delphi?

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  28. Glenn:

    It was readily apparent even as early as mid-2002 that we were going to invade Iraq no matter what Saddam did, no matter what happened with the inspections process, etc.

    Not if you listened to what Dubya was saying. Of course if you were watching what Dubya was doing (and what his minions and acolytes such as the aforementioned neocon blatherers were saying), it should have been clear what Dubya was going to do. Which means that Dubya was, once again, lying his a$$ off.

    Of course, we all know now that Dubya and company are the biggest lying sacks'o's***e around, and we're not going to believe them on anything they say about Iran or their intentions, right?

    Or someone could grow a pair, and haul Dubya in front of Congress to testify under oath (though that hasn't stopped him from lying before) about his intentions.

    Cheers,

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  29. Bart: Compare this statement with Ritter's 1998 statement that the only way to deal with the Iraqi WMD threat is by dealing with Saddam.

    It seems that Ritter was somewhat naive in 1998. It was later that he realized that the CIA had infiltrated his group of inspectors and were using it to bring about a Hussein coup. He also realized that Iraq had destroyed 90-95% of its WMDs in 1991. The Iraqis tried to cover this up, because they didn't want to be attacked.

    Ritter: Scott Ritter: First of all, it's a conclusion I never made. If you track my speaking and my writing, all the way up to the beginning of our invasion in March of 2003, I never gave Iraq a clean bill of health. What I've said is that we had ascertained that we could account verifiably for 90 to 95% of Iraq's weaponry. We had questions about a certain small percentage of unaccounted-for material. We had no evidence that this material was being retained by Iraq, but we just couldn't tell you what had happened. And so we were moving down the path of trying to figure out what happened to this material.

    We were monitoring Iraq – the totality of its industrial infrastructure – with the most intrusive, technologically advanced, on-site inspection program in the history of arms control. And through this monitoring, we were unable to detect any evidence of either a retained capability or a reconstituted capability in weapons of mass destruction.

    We could mitigate against the Iraqis having built anything new. And the longer we carried out our investigation, the less viable any potential retained stockpiles of WMD become. For instance, if Iraq had produced anthrax and lied about its destruction, and was holding on to it after a year or two, it's irrelevant because that anthrax becomes goo. The same is true for chemical agents. There came a point by 1996-1997, that even though we could not fully account for the totality of the weapons, we could ascertain that Iraq had been fundamentally disarmed, meaning that there was no chance of viable weapons of mass destruction existing in Iraq. But our mandate wasn't for "fundamental disarmament" – it was for complete disarmament. And so we had to come to grips with that unaccounted-for five to ten percent, and that's what we were trying to do.

    It's not as though we in UNSCOM were saying, look, we've done everything. We're done. We're finished. It's time to go home. We were saying there's still a job to be done, according to the mandate we were given, and we'd like to finish this job. But if someone's going to stand up and say that Iraq posed a direct threat to the international peace and security from stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, this was an absurd speculation not based on reality.

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  30. It would be nice to trust [elected officials], but, you know, representative democracy isn’t a one-phase process, where you vote, and then—boom—somebody gets elected and now that’s it, you back off. There’s a thing called accountability. They’re still accountable to you, and you have to hold them accountable for what they do in your name. It’s a constant process. We have to supervise, because, remember, they work for us.

    Ritter’s concept of democracy as a “constant process” is what the Bush administration intentionally denies, and it shows a fundamental contempt for democracy. Remember when Bush said “we had our accountability moment” it was called “the election.” His idea is that once you win an election you are not longer accountable to the people. In short, we have a dictator for four years after an election – someone who is no longer accountable to the public – that’s why Bush acts the way he does, discounting public opinion and refusing to explain or persuade people of his position. He doesn’t believe he has to.

    John Dean makes this point today as well, focusing upon Bush’s idiotic statement “I’m the decider.” :

    Yet Bush's defense of Rumsfeld was entirely substance-free. Bush simply told reporters in the Rose Garden that Rumsfeld would stay because "I'm the decider and I decide what's best." He sounded much like a parent telling children how things would be: "I'm the Daddy, that's why." …

    Bush has never understood what presidential scholar Richard Neustadt discovered many years ago: In a democracy, the only real power the presidency commands is the power to persuade. Presidents have their bully pulpit, and the full attention of the news media, 24/7. In addition, they are given the benefit of the doubt when they go to the American people to ask for their support. But as effective as this power can be, it can be equally devastating when it languishes unused - or when a president pretends not to need to use it, as Bush has done.

    Apparently, Bush does not realize that to lead he must continually renew his approval with the public. He is not, as he thinks, the decider. The public is the decider.

    Yet Bush has made no effort to persuade them that his actions are sound, prudent or productive; rather, he takes offense when anyone questions his unilateral powers. He responds as if personally insulted.


    Yes, the public is “the decider” – a point we’ve forgotten about our democracy. And this administration wants to forget it – it has an active campaign to smear anyone who remembers it too.

    Democracy is a process – it is alive – it is always in motion. It is not something that dies after the election. I hope America remembers this. It’s time to wake up.

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  31. Anonymous1:42 PM

    Any chance that Bush could be informed that if he uses nuclear weapons against Iran, he'll be impeached the next day, removed from office, and prosecuted as a war criminal?

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  32. cynic librarian:

    This fact of public ignorance and underlying support for the US if it is winning a war is what disturbs Ritter. It also accounts for why people would actually support a war against Iran.

    I have dealt with this issue before. People wanted to attack Iraq out of a complex despair over 911, ignorance, and simple apathy.

    I agree. There's plenty out there that would be happy if we just keep picking wars until we finally "win" one. Pure hubris and unchecked pride. 9/11 hurt, and Iraq was supposed to give us one back in the win column (albeit, but easily forgotten, against a different "opponent"). Well, we're now 2 games under .500, and we have some real kick-a$$ to do to make up. Sad to say, but that's too common a sentiment, even if unstated and even unacknowledged....

    Cheers,

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  33. Glenn:

    No one seems to being paying much attention to it, but we now have rather damning evidence confirming that the Administration has zero interest in a diplomatic solution: the Iranians tried to open a dialogue, and the White House told them to pound sand.

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  34. Anonymous1:46 PM

    From Bart at 1:19PM:

    "Ritter would not be privy to any classified reports unless someone is violating the US code."

    I've known a few civilians with TS III clearance and better, at least one of whom sat in on a few advisory committees with George Tenant, so Ritter having one isn't beyond the bounds of possibility. Can you show otherwise?

    In the interview in question I believe Ritter states he examined available reports that led to his current stance. No, he doesn't cite any specifically, but then I doubt he could even if he wanted to.

    "I am utterly consistent in my stands. I supported Clinton's call to remove Saddam in 1998 because it was the right thing to do even though I knew Clinton to be a felon deserving of impeachment."

    Leaving aside the historic embarrassment of the Clinton impeachment, I was referring to your persistent claims Iraq is some manner of success story, that Iran is a clear and present danger, and Iraq's WMD programs were sufficient justification for the 2003 invasion. All of these positions have been so thoroughly shredded by either facts on the ground, ongoing investigations, or simple common sense.

    Its admirable, in a strange way, that you're holding your personal line here. But at least when Gallelio stated "E pur si muove!" to the Inquisition, he had empirical evidence on his side.

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  35. the cynic librarian said...

    Bart: Compare this statement with Ritter's 1998 statement that the only way to deal with the Iraqi WMD threat is by dealing with Saddam.

    It seems that Ritter was somewhat naive in 1998. It was later that he realized that the CIA had infiltrated his group of inspectors and were using it to bring about a Hussein coup.


    :::heh:::

    I would enjoy seeing a Ritter quote to this effect. We can add being a fruit loop to his shredded credibility.

    Dude, UNSCOM was a seive feeding the Iraqis information. The CIA stopped cooperating with UNSCOM for that reason, a fact which Blix contantly complained of in 2002.

    He also realized that Iraq had destroyed 90-95% of its WMDs in 1991. The Iraqis tried to cover this up, because they didn't want to be attacked.

    Is this an epiphany? There is no evidence of this destruction either before or after 1998, when Ritter called for regime change.

    Ritter: Scott Ritter: First of all, it's a conclusion I never made. If you track my speaking and my writing, all the way up to the beginning of our invasion in March of 2003, I never gave Iraq a clean bill of health. What I've said is that we had ascertained that we could account verifiably for 90 to 95% of Iraq's weaponry. We had questions about a certain small percentage of unaccounted-for material. We had no evidence that this material was being retained by Iraq, but we just couldn't tell you what had happened. And so we were moving down the path of trying to figure out what happened to this material.

    We were monitoring Iraq – the totality of its industrial infrastructure – with the most intrusive, technologically advanced, on-site inspection program in the history of arms control. And through this monitoring, we were unable to detect any evidence of either a retained capability or a reconstituted capability in weapons of mass destruction.

    We could mitigate against the Iraqis having built anything new. And the longer we carried out our investigation, the less viable any potential retained stockpiles of WMD become. For instance, if Iraq had produced anthrax and lied about its destruction, and was holding on to it after a year or two, it's irrelevant because that anthrax becomes goo. The same is true for chemical agents. There came a point by 1996-1997, that even though we could not fully account for the totality of the weapons, we could ascertain that Iraq had been fundamentally disarmed, meaning that there was no chance of viable weapons of mass destruction existing in Iraq. But our mandate wasn't for "fundamental disarmament" – it was for complete disarmament. And so we had to come to grips with that unaccounted-for five to ten percent, and that's what we were trying to do.

    It's not as though we in UNSCOM were saying, look, we've done everything. We're done. We're finished. It's time to go home. We were saying there's still a job to be done, according to the mandate we were given, and we'd like to finish this job. But if someone's going to stand up and say that Iraq posed a direct threat to the international peace and security from stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, this was an absurd speculation not based on reality.


    Compare all of this with his previous statements. There are too many flip lops to waste my time listing individually.

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  36. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  37. Anonymous1:53 PM

    This is a quote from Propaganda by Edward Bernays, 1929. I think Unka Karl must of studied him very carefully

    From page 120:

    One reason, perhaps, why the politician today is slow to take up methods which are a commonplace in business life is that he has such ready entry to the media of communication on which his power depends.

    The newspaperman looks to him for news. And by his power of giving or withholding information the politician can often effectively censor political news. But being dependent, every day of the year and for year after year, upon certain politicians for news, the newspaper reporters are obliged to work in harmony with their news sources.


    And folks like Bart just eat it up.

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  38. bart: [my quote] It seems that Ritter was somewhat naive in 1998. It was later that he realized that the CIA had infiltrated his group of inspectors and were using it to bring about a Hussein coup.

    Bart response: :::heh:::

    I would enjoy seeing a Ritter quote to this effect. We can add being a fruit loop to his shredded credibility.


    You're about as dishonest as they come. Look at the link I provided, wherein Ritter describes the evolution of his understanding of the CIA infiltration of his group and the fact that Iraq had destroyed its WMDs.

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  39. Ritter to a belligerent, speaking agit-prop head at Fox News:

    ASMAN: You know all the back-door channels. Oil-for-food program and all the other ways in which to help Iraq to get the cash they need to do what you're saying.

    RITTER: I worked with the Israeli government for four years setting up capability to monitor Iraqi -- they tracked them and monitored them. I'm not doing it anymore. I know the Israelis are, [and the] United States is. ... Make the case, Mr. President, make the case.

    ASMAN: He made a case ... the question comes down to this, Scott Ritter, who do you trust more, President Bush and the case he is making against Saddam Hussein, or the rhetoric coming out of Iraq?

    RITTER: I'd like to put it this way. Who do I hold accountable, the president of Iraq or the president of the United States. I hold my government accountable to the facts. I hold my government to a higher standard than I do Saddam Hussein. I am an American citizen who believes in the Constitution and believes in my obligation as a citizen to hold my government [accountable].

    ASMAN: I'm a journalist. ... which information do you think is more reliable right now? That coming out of Iraq or that coming out of President Bush?

    RITTER: ... The bottom line is I believe that the United States government -- the Bush administration is deliberately distorting the record in regards to weapons of mass destruction. I have trouble believing what they are saying. Not that I believe what Saddam Hussein is doing. Not that I believe Saddam Hussein more. I don't trust based upon my extensive experience what is coming from the Bush administration. They need to make a better case with substantive fact.

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  40. Anonymous2:18 PM

    Glenn Greenwald: Pound for pound, the best blogger in the world.

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  41. Anonymous2:24 PM

    Well, most of did not appreciate that when we allowed chimpy to steal 2000 (and again in 2004), we were appointing a "decider" that claims to hear but will not listen to the "voices" of dissent.

    Of course, it was insanity to think that the neocons behind the chimperor in leak would have engineered the theft of federal elections because they wanted to do the "will of the people."

    The fact, there neocon agenda is totally against the self-interest of virtually all U.S. citizens.

    GREAT CRIMES DEMAND EVEN LARGER CRIMINALITY!

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  42. Anonymous2:26 PM

    Shorter Bart:

    Bart: Ritter has shredded credibility.

    Response: Here's an explanation...

    Bart: I already told you, Ritter has shredded credibility.

    Response: This interview explains....

    Bart: Look dude, I already told you Ritter has shredded credibility. Don't try to confuse the issue with facts, explanations, information, interviews, interpretation, etc. What part of "shredded credibility" don't you understand?

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  43. Anonymous2:28 PM

    Bart said:

    Take your pick of Ritter's reasoning, but the fact remains that he a gross hypocrite with zero credibility.

    And how about Bush who claimed during campaigning that he wasn't into nation building?

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  44. Anonymous2:36 PM

    after Bush-Nero's debacle in Iraq, anyone in favor of attacking Iran needs to head down to their local Army recruiter and ENLIST

    bedwetters love war so long as they don't have to do the fighting, bleeding, and dying

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  45. CIA agent confirms Ritter's conclusions:

    "[The [highly placed Iraqi] source] told us that there were no active weapons of mass destruction programs," says Drumheller. "The [White House] group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested. And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.'"

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  46. Paul: Great points, thank you. Have you read "When the News Lies"? Today's discussion is missing the role MSM has played in America's misinformation. Bloggers as a whole are fact & analysis hounds. We search, we challenge, we're passionate. Average Americans are satisfied to be fed and argue with nothing more than sound bites, rarely recognizing a fact when it rolls in front of them. The breach is becoming larger: the bloggers are labelled overreaching nutcases (Which is obvious by our over emotionallism) while the rest of America reaches for the clicker and a snowball. Blogger news must somehow be too hardhitting for a complacent America.

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  47. Anonymous2:39 PM

    Funny you post this today. I ran across this piece this morning. Someone - don't know who linked to this by Ritter written yesterday.

    A Path to Peace with Iran
    http://alternet.org/blogs/themix/35226

    While there is some technical stuff in there that is way over my head, it is an interesting discussion on how the "anti-war" movement needs to forge new alliances to stop the war on Iran train.

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  48. Historical obfuscation from you know who:

    UNSCOM was a seive feeding the Iraqis information. The CIA stopped cooperating with UNSCOM for that reason,...

    UNSCOM was a sieve feeding the CIA information (and we'll ignore the stoopidity of HWSNBN's seeming assertion here that UNSCOM was "feeding information" to the people being inspected, like they didn't know what was there). One of the embarrassments at the time was that Saddam accused UNSCOM of being a cover for U.S. intelligence activities, rather than the neutral inspectors they should have been. And unfortunately, it was true (and it was one reason that Saddam wouldn't let them back in after the 1998 attacks).

    Scott Ritter was one of those angry that the U.S. intelligence community had subverted and effectively sabotaged the inspections by doing this, and he said so somewhere around the time. IIRC, it may have been one of the factors that led him to quit the inspections team.

    But let's not let HWSNBN distract and torpedo the main facts here: Scott Ritter was right about the Iraqi WoMD (or more accurately, lack thereof) in 2002, and said so plainly, before this was verified but multiple sources. As Glenn points out, that's far better than the chickenhawks who, even Monday-morning-quarterbacking, refuse to admit they were completely wrong. A trait that HWSNBN also possesses.

    Cheers,

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  49. Anonymous2:53 PM

    Arne Langsetmo said...

    "I agree. There's plenty out there that would be happy if we just keep picking wars until we finally "win" one. Pure hubris and unchecked pride. 9/11 hurt, and Iraq was supposed to give us one back in the win column (albeit, but easily forgotten, against a different "opponent"). Well, we're now 2 games under .500, and we have some real kick-a$$ to do to make up. Sad to say, but that's too common a sentiment, even if unstated and even unacknowledged...."

    I really think that people would have been satisfied if Bush had simply followed through and either captured or killed Osama Bin Laden when we had him cornered and wounded in the Tora Bora mountains in Afghanistan.

    Iraq was a hard sell with all of the heavy hitters in the White House hitting the talk circuit every weekend.

    Condi with her: We can't wait till the next smoking gun comes in the form of a mushroom cloud.

    Rumsfeld with his: We know for a fact that Saddam has WMD's and I know exactly where they are

    Cheny's: There is no doubt that there is a connection between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida, the people that attacked us on 9/11.

    etc. ad nauseum

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  50. Paul Rosenberg:

    Sure, there's significant anger and frustration that can be tapped into. And BushCo are masters of doing this. But there's a world of difference between latent emotions and attitudes that can be activated and manipulated through lying about the facts, and the motivated mindset of those involved in doing the manipulation, or the hard-core supporters who cheer them on. The latter are a small minority of the American public.

    OK, I'll agree with you that a majority of the public are disinclined to wars of agression, and perhaps a majority will be adamantly opposed to a war with Iraq. I was just pointing out that there's a psychological dynamic or bias that is unfortunately rather prevalent in the U.S. population that makes the job of those that would "bamboozle" the public into another war a bit easier. The cards are stacked against un on this count, and if we really want to address it, we have to recognise it exists. People's psychological biases do affect their "rational" choices and decisionmaking. We just have to find ways to reduce these more emotional and irrational influences as a factor in our national policy-making. Not that it makes much difference in the end; the Republicans are going to have their war whether "popular" or not; in their mind, it's the only chance they have (even if they happen tomisjudge the people, which they won't admit as a possibility).

    Cheers,

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  51. Anonymous2:55 PM

    From anonymous at 2:41PM:

    "In Bart's defense I'd like to point out that he admits to being a libertarian in college. He could just be a gullible idiot."

    Actually one of my graduate advisors was an avowed libertarian. He was sharp enough about his material, but tended to be a bit 'pie in the sky' in terms of application.

    My point is libertarians per se aren't automatically idiots, but they are prone to cognitive dissonance when confronted with the chaotic mess of daily life. Probably explains why they prefer to remain in academia and right-end think tanks, eh?

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  52. Bart's right.

    Mr. Ritter's position on Iraq appears to have changed some time after the Bush administration took over.

    "[Time] In 1998, you said Saddam had "not nearly disarmed." Now you say he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Why did you change your mind?"

    "[Ritter] I have never given Iraq a clean bill of health! Never! Never! I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has reconstituted WMD capability with anything that remotely resembles substantive fact."

    Time Magazine.

    The above is a good example of Mr. Ritter covering both sides of the argument:

    1) No "clean bill of health" for Saddam, yet;
    2) No "substantive fact[s]" exist to back up WND claims.

    So did Mr. Ritter suspect that Iraq still had a WMD capability, while at the same time knowing that no substantive facts to support this conclusion where there to be found? If not, why didn't he give Saddam a clean bill of health when he had the opportunity?

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  53. Anonymous3:08 PM

    I'm a little disturbed by his report that the Pentagon is drawing up plans for an incursion into Iran, via Azerbaijan.

    I have no doubt that there are several different plans for "contingencies" being worked out. That is the way it works. As a military guy I can tell you that this is quite normal, but don't get bent on it too much. It is the job of military planners to do this sort of thing. Most of such plans never reach fruition but the "what ifs" have to be done in case there is a call to do something - then a ready-made plan can be tapped and used rather than trying to figure things out on the go.

    Planning operations is not the same thing, by a long shot, as carrying out an operation. There were some plans I was aware of during the 80s and 90s that were batshit crazy and, of course, they weren't acted upon, but the plans were there.

    My problem is not so much the military planning, it is the civilian leadership. Whereas planners may devise their plans, most would likely not necessarily think carrying out those plans was a wise or correct action. This sort of rational thinking is not native to our current civilian leadership. They don't believe that any plans are batshit crazy. They likely see them all as real possibilities rather than exercises or studies in absurdity.

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  54. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  55. Anonymous3:17 PM

    Yankeepnedragon writes: My point is libertarians per se aren't automatically idiots, but they are prone to cognitive dissonance when confronted with the chaotic mess of daily life. Probably explains why they prefer to remain in academia and right-end think tanks, eh?

    You know, Ive seen some on the right say exactly that about left-wingers, substituting only “left-end” for “right-end” in what you say above. “ They couldn’t function in the real world of business where they would actually have to do something that produces results.” Hence all the liberals in the pie-in-the-sky ivory towers of academe, the right claims.

    If a person is intellectually inclined, academia and thinks tanks would seem to be the top two places to go.

    In any event, we libertarians are found in all walks of life, especially in the technology industries. My background is law. And I experience no cognitive dissonance about my political philosophy.

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  56. Anonymous3:21 PM

    I am amazed that pro war hacks are so troubled by Ritter's change of heart on Iraq, yet they continue to blindly support this administration despite the mountains of errors and mistatements.

    The bottom line is this: Ritter was absolutely correct about our misguided Iraq Invasion. The prowar Bush enablers owe him an apology.

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  57. Anonymous3:23 PM

    My point is libertarians per se aren't automatically idiots, but they are prone to cognitive dissonance when confronted with the chaotic mess of daily life. Probably explains why they prefer to remain in academia and right-end think tanks, eh?

    As I said before in another thread David Friedman has observed that there are probably two libertarians someplace who agree on something, but he's not one of them. I have a strong affinity for social libertarian ideals myself. In a very real sense they are the contemporary heirs of Will Rogers, "I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." Or as Mike Huben has called them, "The party of oxymoron. Individualists unite!"

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  58. Paul: Interesting poll indeed. I would have liked to see it broken down by people who actually vote. You cite Bush voters supporting milti-lateralism, but I haven't found that in the report yet.

    As you'll know, the voting public is much smaller than people actually elibible to vote. In the last election, it broke down to about 55% of eligible voters who did so.

    Studies on why people don't vote describe several reasons, the most important one being that non-voters see no difference between the two parties.

    There does also seem to be some evidence that those vested in the current system vote, as opposed to those who live and work at the margins of the system and live precarious economic lives.

    That is, the more money you make and influence you have over the economic conditions of your life, the more chance there is that you'll vote. Given this (at the moment) somewhat hypothetical assertion, I wonder what the view towards American hegemony is among those who do not vote.

    Surely, it must strike many people as odd that there is very little difference between the Dem and Rep solutions to the Iraq war. Ultimately, the difference seems to come down to a matter of opinion about management styles and techniques.

    It's this seemingly innocuous difference between the two parties that strikes me as most telling. If the people most likely to vote are from the management class, then they will be concerned about this issue, to the exclusion of other--perhaps more important--issues, such as whether the US should be pursuing an imperialistic, hegemonistic agenda in the mideast.

    [edited for typos]

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  59. Anonymous3:25 PM

    Bart changes the topic, and everyone gets sucked in. Ritter was right about Iraq--that's it. That alone gives him more credibility than almost all of the pundits that are spewing their war-mongering bullshit. That's it. It doesn't matter what he was saying in 1998, or why he changed his mind, or even if he is some super partisan (which would only put him on equal footing with Krauthammer, Kriston, et. al.). Based upon his statements about the current Iraq War, which were entirely correct, he has more credibility. Period.

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  60. Anonymous3:26 PM

    And I experience no cognitive dissonance about my political philosophy.

    Snort! You are the least likely person to be aware of it. To the rest of us it's as plain as day.

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  61. anon: Based upon his statements about the current Iraq War, which were entirely correct, he has more credibility.

    What's more, the Bushites and neocons know this. That's why they'll go to extraordinary lengths to slime and smear Ritter. In fact, they were able to get charges of downloading of child porn brought against him. As Ritter noted in a show on C-Span, all charges of this were dropped against him. But it's the nasty, slimy, sleazy depths to which the Right will sink to destroy those who oppose their agenda.

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  62. Paul Rosenburg:

    We are just as mistaken to over-estimate the significance of irrational forces, and lapse into despair, as we are to ignore them,...

    Believe me, Paul, I'm not one to "lapse into despair" (nor do I suggest it).

    OTOH, I will assert there's pretty much nothing that will prevent Dubya from attacking Iran if and when (my bet's on "when") he decides to to it. Impeachment (but most likely not possible in advance of such a move) might stop him, but it wouldn't surprise me if he pulled a Berluscone "You and who's army?" Of course, that is not the end of the story, but things get very interesting at that point.

    Cheers,

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  63. Anonymous3:34 PM

    Re: Libertarians and diehard Bushistas with some level of intelligence...

    "Smart people believe wierd things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons."


    Michael Shermer, Scientific American: Smart People Believe Weird Things Sept. 2002

    It looks like Rove is about to be indicted... as far as the next few elections go... Seniors are supposed to be more conservative as they age. Their ranks are being swelled by us aging baby boomers. This demographic is going to bury the GOP for at least the next generation. Seniors are very serious about voting. Mark my words.

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  64. Anonymous3:43 PM

    04/20/06 FOX Poll: Gloomy Economic Views; Bush Approval at New Low

    Thursday, April 20, 2006
    By Dana Blanton


    •Bush, GOP Approval Ratings Hit New Lows
    NEW YORK — More Americans disapprove than approve of how George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and Congress are doing their jobs... President Bush’s approval hits a record low of 33 percent this week, clearly damaged by sinking support among Republicans.


    Why does Fox News hate America?

    If these clowns actually do this, military action in Iran, I'll be suprised. I think it's just bluster, and a channel changer, to take our minds off Iraq. I think they, the admin, are more frightened of the dems getting subpena power in Nov. than any Iranian nuke.

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  65. Anonymous3:47 PM

    yankee,


    I'm a little disturbed by his report that the Pentagon is drawing up plans for an incursion into Iran, via Azerbaijan.


    Is this the same plan that was outlined in depth in an article in Asia Times about a week or two ago that I think I posted a link to on this site?

    That article certainly was very persuasive, and outlined a whole different "Iran initiative" than the ones most talked about now in the press.

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  66. Anonymous4:08 PM

    Re: Libertarians and diehard Bushistas with some level of intelligence...

    "Smart people believe wierd things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons."


    Yes, why did so many intellecuals in the 20th centruy believe the weird and insane claims of socialism? It was a "libertarian" who first showed comprehensively how deranged their notions were.

    Libertarian F.A. Hayek would win a Nobel Prizes in economics in 1974.
    When Hayek published The Road to Serfdom in ’44, however,and notwithstanding that John Maynrad Keynes was impressed by it, it was widely reviled by all those bien pensants dominating the intellectual class who were so sure that socialist utopias were about to liberate mankind.

    These days, that command economies and centralized planning cannot ever be as efficient as free markets, that they can lead to enslavement, these are conventional ideas. They were heresy, however, when Hayek first and lucidly explicated why this was all so; he was ridiculed and marginalized by all those leftists who believed a contrary and very weird thing!

    Reality has a way of intruding, however, and it was socialists who had to deal with “cognitive dissonance,” as their collectivist notions consistently failed to yield efficiency, and often led instead to totalitarianism and human rights nightmares. Hayek was so right, even if he was a “gullible” libertarian.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous4:20 PM

    Damn glenn, you might as well be addressing our resident "copy and paste" troll.

    He is lying or demonstratedly wrong on virtual everything.

    Yet he comes back daily and dumps more tangent, inane, and obtuse statements into the thread.

    The chimperor he is defending has an approval rate in the low 30's and the facts suggest that nothing the administration has "accomplished" has actually worked or been positive.

    Chimpy has ruined the fiscal integrity of a great nation...

    and our resident troll thinks he brings anything meaningful to the dialog?

    LOL!!!!!!

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  68. Anonymous4:22 PM

    There should be a blog soley to collate the real pundits who have been accurate, prescient, and both rigorous and thorough in their analysis and predictions.

    Damn, you must a place where we would not be fed a steady diet from the "circle of links" i.e. FDL, atrios, americablog and the faux "advertise liberally" crowd.

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  69. Anonymous4:23 PM

    Yes, why did so many intellecuals in the 20th centruy believe the weird and insane claims of socialism? It was a "libertarian" who first showed comprehensively how deranged their notions were.

    Thanks for proving my point. Every time you or Bart say something you really shoot yourselves in your feet. I'd bet you have nary a toe between you.

    How many functioning libertarian governments on this planet, Hypatia? How many functioning social democracies?

    Bart wrote this:

    The Middle East is a perfect breeding ground for fascism because the people who are part of this movement are usually educated enough to know they are being left behind by history and they feel powerless to do anything about it.



    A conservative is one who stands astride History, yelling “Stop!”.

    WFBuckley, jr.


    Conservatism is a perfect breeding ground for fascism because the people who are part of this movement are usually educated enough to know they are being left behind by history and they feel powerless to do anything about it.


    The claim that socialism or liberalism is a form of derangement smacks of the Soviets attitude towards political dissent. Thanks to Hofstadter we know that the paranoid style in American politics is a function of the right. One only needs to look around today to see that is true.

    Personally I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic government lacking liberalism.
    Friedrich Hayek, 1981 interview in El Mercurio

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  70. Anonymous4:24 PM

    Here is that link to the Asia Times article:

    Real men go to Khuzestan

    TEHRAN - When it comes to Iran, the widespread belief is that the United States cannot possibly occupy the country - it's the size of France, Britain, Italy and Spain combined - and thus exercise the avowed White House goal of regime change.

    The next best thing - from the point of view of armchair warriors - would be subversion from within. Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld, in a widely distributed opinion piece a few months ago, stated that should the US attack Iran, ethnic minorities "might
    welcome the humiliation of their oppressors", that is, the Persians. Nonsense replays itself, as in the US supposedly being greeted as the "liberator" of Iraq.

    In the overdrive run-up to the attack on Iraq in 2003, the ultimate neo-conservative mantra was "Real men go to Khuzestan." Indeed, some of of these "real men" may already have been there. The Iranian government is convinced US, British and/or Israeli special ops have been conducted on Iran's western and southeastern borders, at least since early 2005.


    Interesting article. You all should read this.

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  71. Anonymous4:28 PM

    Libertarian F.A. Hayek would win a Nobel Prizes in economics in 1974.
    When Hayek published The Road to Serfdom in ’44, however,and notwithstanding that John Maynrad Keynes was impressed by it, it was widely reviled by all those bien pensants dominating the intellectual class who were so sure that socialist utopias were about to liberate mankind.


    You guys are always good for a laugh. I love economist jokes.

    Economics is the only field in which two people can get a Nobel Prize for saying exactly the opposite thing.

    Humor is evolving, now we have a refinement:
    "Economics is the only field in which two people can get a Nobel Prize for saying the opposite thing" is true, but is not strong enough. Better:

    "Economics is the only field in which two people can share a Nobel Prize for saying opposing things." Specifically, Myrdal and Hayek shared one.

    Roberto Alazar

    (A rumor has it that there was a similar case in neuroscience, Golgi and Cajal, maybe economists are not so different)


    Here's one of my favs:

    Heard at the Wharton School.
    Man walking along a road in the countryside comes across a shepherd and a huge flock of sheep. Tells the shepherd, "I will bet you $100 against one of your sheep that I can tell you the exact number in this flock." The shepherd thinks it over; it's a big flock so he takes the bet. "973," says the man. The shepherd is astonished, because that is exactly right. Says "OK, I'm a man of my word, take an animal." Man picks one up and begins to walk away.

    "Wait," cries the shepherd, "Let me have a chance to get even. Double or nothing that I can guess your exact occupation." Man says sure. "You are an economist for a government think tank," says the shepherd. "Amazing!" responds the man, "You are exactly right! But tell me, how did you deduce that?"

    "Well," says the shepherd, "put down my dog and I will tell you."

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous4:46 PM

    How many functioning libertarian governments on this planet, Hypatia? How many functioning social democracies?

    First, you avoided my point: the dominant intellectual trend in ’44 was to embrace collectivism and centralized planning. Hayek showed why this was a wholly unworkable idea, and impossible to establish without enslaving the population. He was ridiculed then; his views are now conventional wisdom.

    There are some “functioning” social democracies. They are not as economically robust and vibrant as the United States, with its more nearly free market approach. And they cannot be, in no small part because of “brain drain.” As long as their govts do not forbid the best and brightest to leave for the U.S., many will continue to do so, where they may maximize their money-making potential.

    I would argue that this nation was essentially libertarian at its Founding, since libertarian is simply another word for “classically liberal.” But I readily concede that it is likely impossible to retain a libertarian govt. If a majority can vote itself the right to take from the minoirity, it always will. If the govt can find ways to expand its power and control people, it always will. The Founders knew this, and were not sure we could keep our classically liberal republic.

    What the Founders wrought may not be possible to preserve. But while it lasts, it leads to freedom and prosperity.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous4:48 PM

    Paul Rosenberg said...
    Hayek: Conventional Wisdom and Wrong


    Thank you, Mister Rosenberg. That was excellent. I learned something myself.

    I wonder if Hypatia has read Robert Locke's article on Libertarianism in American Conservative magazine.

    Marxism of the Right

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  74. Anonymous4:58 PM

    I would argue that this nation was essentially libertarian at its Founding, since libertarian is simply another word for “classically liberal.”

    You could argue that, and you would be wrong. First with respect to Jefferson's, Paine's and Franklin's, and others, true feelings on property. Libertarians are fond of spiritually baptizing the deceased as libertarians because they cannot protest the anachronism: Locke, Smith, Paine, Jefferson, Spooner, etc.

    Social libertarianism has some basis in liberalism. "Classical liberals" like the founders would find you mildly amusing, like we do.

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  75. Anonymous5:06 PM

    Paul Rosenberg writes: Hayek's thesis was basically that benign welfare states were impossible,

    No. Hayek’s thesis was that centralized planning cannot be efficient, due to the inability of any group of planners to have all the knowledge the myriad entities and individuals acting in the free market have, as they are informed by price information, and other matters which are known only to them. Hayek’s main argument related to knowledge and who had it, and could obtain it.

    Hayek was not opposed to all welfare programs. He made that explicitly clear in, among other places, The Constitution of Liberty. But he did argue that centralized planning necessitated totalitarian control of the population, and could not work. History has amply vindicated him.

    His trailblazing work on the impossibility of centralized planning proved to be entirely accurate, notwithstanding that it was widely disparaged by the intelligentsia in the first several decades in which he made the argument.

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  76. Anonymous5:11 PM

    According to Hayek, socialism strips man of his desire to succeed, and produces a psychological change in the character of people.

    Many libertarians and conservatives view the entire New Deal as Socialism, including the Social Security Act of 1935 -- because it was a mandatory system organized by the government.

    Did the Social Security system lead us to become a totalitarian nation? Did implementing Social Security strip Americans of their desire to work and succeed?

    I don’t think too many Americans would buy into this. Indeed, Bush’s attempt to destroy the Social Security system – one of the reasons he wanted to be “the war president” – failed miserably.

    As E.J Dionne points out today:

    It's forgotten that the president's proposal to privatize part of Social Security was not primarily about creating solvency in the system, since the creation of private accounts would have aggravated deficits for a significant period. It was part of a larger effort to reorganize government and bring the New Deal era to a definitive close.

    That was Bush’s domestic agenda – and it’s toast. Katrina put the nail in the “get the government off our back” rhetoric, and people saw that we couldn’t rely on Pat Robertson and the church-based charities to solve the problem – it was bigger than they were.

    And Enron exposed this myth as well. We need someone on the backs of crooks like Kenny Boy Lay, and who is going to do it other than government? That doesn’t mean we want wasteful and inefficient government (like we have under Bush), but it does show that the public now accepts the necessity of government, and all this libertarian theology (while appealing in many respects) does not hold up in the real world.

    Sorry. And now back to Scott Ritter and your regularly scheduled programming……

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  77. Anonymous5:12 PM

    You could argue that, and you would be wrong. First with respect to Jefferson's, Paine's and Franklin's, and others, true feelings on property. Libertarians are fond of spiritually baptizing the deceased as libertarians because they cannot protest the anachronism: Locke, Smith, Paine, Jefferson, Spooner, etc.

    Social libertarianism has some basis in liberalism. "Classical liberals" like the founders would find you mildly amusing, like we do.


    Assertions. Unsupported ones. Just what was it about property that the Founders supposedly "truly" believed that a modern day libertarian would not?

    In any event, the constitutional order they established is one libertarians like. We'd prefer to return to much of it, ditching things like the acceptanceof chattel slavery. (Which many of them knew was inconsistent with their political philosophy.)

    ReplyDelete
  78. hypatia: Just what was it about property that the Founders supposedly "truly" believed that a modern day libertarian would not?

    That what's good for the corporation is good for the rest of us. My understanding is that the founders were as anti-corporation as are anarcho-syndicalists. The idea that corporations have the same rights as individuals is not only a logical imbecility, it's a moral, ethical, and political travesty.

    You forgot to mention that another form of collectivism is what I'll term corporationism, ie, the notion that corporations know how to organize our lives better.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous5:27 PM

    That what's good for the corporation is good for the rest of us. My understanding is that the founders were as anti-corporation as are anarcho-syndicalists.

    Really? Which founders said what about coporations that support this view?

    And just what is it you think libertarains believe about corporations? Depending on the issue, we can be quite "anti-corporation."

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Assertions. Unsupported ones. Just what was it about property that the Founders supposedly "truly" believed that a modern day libertarian would not?

    You don't know, do you? Brainwashed.

    In any event, the constitutional order they established is one libertarians like. We'd prefer to return to much of it, ditching things like the acceptanceof chattel slavery. (Which many of them knew was inconsistent with their political philosophy.)

    Brainwashed.

    It's you who has a head full of nonsense based on false and unsupported assumptions and if people like Paul Rosenburg can't get through to you, far be it from me to try. Maybe these guys can:

    Probably nothing has done so much harm to the liberal cause as the wooden insistence of some liberals on certain rough rules of thumb, above all the principle of laissez-faire.
    Hayek, "The Road to Serfdom" p.18 U of Chicago Press 1972

    Far from advocating a "minimal state", we find it unquestionable that in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided or cannot be provided adequately by the market.
    Hayek, "Law, Legislation, and Liberty" 1982

    I am the last person to deny that increased wealth and the increased density of population have enlarged the number of collective needs which government can and should statisfy.
    Hayek, New Studies

    'Tis true that governments cannot be supported without great charge, and it is fit everyone who enjoys a share of protection should pay out of his estate his proportion of the maintenance of it.
    John Locke

    The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....[As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to] 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'
    Adam Smith

    [What Hayek] does not see, or will not admit, [is] that a return to "free" competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the State. The trouble with competitions is that somebody wins them. Professor Hayek denies that free capitalism necessarily leads to monopoly, but in practice that is where it has led, and since the vast majority of people would far rather have State regimentation than slumps and unemployment, the drift towards collectivism is bound to continue if popular opinion has any say in the matter.
    George Orwell, in a 1944 review of "The Road to Serfdom" by F.A. Hayek and "The Mirror of the Past" by K. Zilliacus

    Such regulations [banking regulations] may, no doubt, be considered as in some respect a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communcation of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade which are here proposed.
    Adam Smith, "The Wealth Of Nations", pg. 263

    Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate the differences between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters. When the regulation, therefore, is in favour of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters.
    Adam Smith, "The Wealth Of Nations", pg. 151

    The capricious ambition of kings and ministers has not, during the present and the preceding century, been more fatal to the repose of Europe, than the impertinent jealousy of merchants and manufacturers. The violence and injustice of the rulers of mankind is an ancient evil, for which, I am afraid, the nature of human affairs can scarce admit of a remedy. But the mean rapacity, the monopolizing spirit of merchants and manufacturers, who neither are, nor ought to be, the rulers of mankind, though it cannot perhaps be corrected, may very easily be prevented from disturbing the tranquillity of any body but themselves.
    Adam Smith, "The Wealth Of Nations", pg. 382

    Our merchants and master manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effcts of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.
    Adam Smith, "The Wealth Of Nations", pg. 104

    ... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.
    Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to James Madison), 1785

    While it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from Nature at all ... it is considered by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no one has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land ... Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease.
    Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816

    Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind... as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times.... We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.
    Thomas Jefferson (on reform of the Virginia Constitution)

    Private property ... is a Creature of Society, and is subject to the Calls of that Society, whenever its Necessities shall require it, even to its last Farthing, its contributors therefore to the public Exigencies are not to be considered a Benefit on the Public, entitling the Contributors to the Distinctions of Honor and Power, but as the Return of an Obligation previously received, or as payment for a just Debt.
    Benjamin Franklin

    All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his matchcoat and other little Acquisitions absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public Convention. Hence, the public has the rights of regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the quantity and uses of it. All the property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it.
    Benjamin Franklin

    Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights in order to vest it with requisite powers.
    John Jay, FEDERALIST No. 2

    It cannot have escaped those who have attended with candor to the arguments employed against the extensive powers of the government, that the authors of them have very little considered how far these powers were necessary means of attaining a necessary end. They have chosen rather to dwell on the inconveniences which must be unavoidably blended with all political advantages; and on the possible abuses which must be incident to every power or trust, of which a beneficial use can be made. This method of handling the subject cannot impose on the good sense of the people of America. It may display the subtlety of the writer; it may open a boundless field for rhetoric and declamation; it may inflame the passions of the unthinking, and may confirm the prejudices of the misthinking: but cool and candid people will at once reflect, that the purest of human blessings must have a portion of alloy in them; that the choice must always be made, if not of the lesser evil, at least of the greater, not the perfect, good; and that in every political institution, a power to advance the public happiness involves a discretion which may be misapplied and abused. They will see, therefore, that in all cases where power is to be conferred, the point first to be decided is, whether such a power be necessary to the public good; as the next will be, in case of an affirmative decision, to guard as effectually as possible against a perversion of the power to the public detriment.
    James Madison, FEDERALIST No. 41

    Personal property is the effect of Society; and it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of society, as it is for him to make land originally. Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist, the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation therefore of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes, on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came. This is putting the matter on a general principle, and perhaps it is best to do so; for if we examine the case minutely, it will be found, that the accumulation of personal property is, in many instances, the effect of paying too little for the labour that produced it; the consequence of which is, that the working hand perishes in old age, and the employer abounds in affluence. It is perhaps impossible to proportion exactly the price of labour to the profits it produces; and it will also be said, as an apology for injustice, that were a workman to receive an increase of wages daily, he would not save it against old age nor be much the better for it in the interim. Make then Society the treasurer to guard it for him in a common fund, for it is no reason that because he might not make a good use of it for himself that another shall take it.
    Thomas Paine, "Agrarian Justice" 1797

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous5:29 PM

    U.S. Rep. John Murtha, continuing his criticism of President Bush's handling of the Iraq war, said today it would take more than Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation to restore Bush's credibility in the Middle East and with the American public.

    Thank you, Dr. Strangelove, who never met a war you didn't want to begin. And it is important America's credibility is restored so we can have wide support when we invade and attack other countries.

    People are so easily duped. Democrats, I hope you like your heroes.

    Today Howard Dean, in his never ending quest to import more cannon fodder into this country said "Every one of us wasn't born in America at some point in our lives."

    And Bill and Hillary raise money, with nary a word about any of the issues which concern most of the posters on this site.

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  82. Anonymous5:34 PM

    Punish all whistleblowers who want to inform the American people about things they have a right, a moral obligation, to know about?

    From Huffington Post:

    Breaking: CIA Agent Fired for Leaking

    Andrea Mitchell just reported that the CIA has fired an agent who failed a polygraph and admitted leaking classified information to Dana Priest of the Washington Post...
    Priest won a Pulitzer Prize for: "Dana Priest won the beat reporting award for revealing that the CIA was using secret prisons in Eastern Europe to interrogate terrorism suspects."
    Andrea says that it also has been referred to the Justice Dept for possible criminal action.

    Mitchell's being told about the firing actually violated Porter Goss's order within the CIA not to leak. Go figure. This definitely will have huge ramifications...

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  83. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Really? Which founders said what about coporations that support this view?

    And just what is it you think libertarains believe about corporations? Depending on the issue, we can be quite "anti-corporation."

    5:27 PM


    You are incredibly obtuse. The Boston Tea party was directed at the corporations of the day, like the British East India company. Surely you know this. If you don't, you are in a cult. A brain death cult. Fortunately not all libertarians are as brain dead and doctrinaire as you.

    From a poster on another thread at another blog:

    To clear up something from the last thread, my opinion of Libertarians--real ones, not Boortz and Instahack--has improved much over the past few years.

    I read Antiwar.com every day, and they're far more principled and coherent in their anti-war philosophy than the DNC. And they'll link to anyone they find sensible on a particular issue, be it Pat Buchanan or Noam Chomsky.

    Yes, it's jarring to find an occasional nostalgiac rhapsody for the heady days before they realized Ayn Rand was a crackpot.

    But I liked the story Justin Raimondo told of a Dem meeting in San Fran. A Naderite heckler interrupted the speaker with "End corporate welfare!" at an appropriate moment. Raimondo said he was the only one to echo the call.

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  84. Anonymous5:40 PM

    anon posts 6 million bytes, not all of whihc i read, but offers this:

    Far from advocating a "minimal state", we find it unquestionable that in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided or cannot be provided adequately by the market.
    Hayek, "Law, Legislation, and Liberty" 1982


    No shit! That's what I said above. I own that book, and as it happens, just reread that chapter -- Hayek did not oppose all welfare schemes, or all government-provided services.

    Libertarians are not anarchists. We do not object to all laws, all government. Hayek didn't. He objected to coercive income redistribution schemes, and to centralized planning. But he felt that provision of minimal necessities, certainly in emergencies, was not outside of proper govt purview.

    You people hold cartoon versions of what it is libertarians, including Hayek, advocate.

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  85. Anonymous5:47 PM

    The comments here are fairly instructive as to what we're up against as we take our country back from this bumbling crew of idiots. Bart represents that still dwindling % of Americans that remain true to the right-wing extremist cause, and his comments explain exactly the nature of their delusion.

    The treatment of Ritter during the build-up to the war sprang from the same source that has created the % of Americans still deluded into believing anything the right-wing spin machine tells them, as represented by Bart.

    American political discourse has been poisoned for the last 15 or so years by a small-minded, angry and very vocal group of right-wing extremists who've taken advantage of the scrapping of the Fairness Doctrine to smother the American people with a 24 hour a day cycle of right-wing blather.

    Sure enough, politics is now a steaming sludgepile of claims and counterclaims, and anybody can get the story they want to hear from somewhere on the dial. Bart gets his from some very strange places, but he doesn't see how obvious it is to anybody without an agenda how ridiculous his claims are.

    I used to be scared for my country, but the incompetence of the administartion the right-wingers finally managed to ram down our throats has done more to destroy their own credibility than anything we could have managed to do by trying to match them pundit for pundit in the media.

    Now we have a good 2/3 of the country firmly against this administration. In desparation Rove has decided to fall back on the only tactic that has always guaranteed loyalty from the masses--a fresh new war. Unfortunately for them, thank god for us, the public is so disgusted by the incompetence of Bush that the chances he'll be able to pull off another war are very slim. In the run-up to the war in Iraq, the vast majority was behind the POTUS all the way, and it allowed the media to treat the Ritters of the world like pariahs. That won't happen again. The run-up to war involves a fairly long public performance that allows the public to roll the consquences around in its collective head. That won't mean what its meant in the past. Now the very real possibility that this team of dolts will screw things up horribly will scare the shit out of most Americans, and instead of dreams of glory, more and more people will be seeing nightmares of colossal failure and utter incompetence. The only people still willing to see the fantasy painted of great things happening in Iraq are the loyal core group represented by Bart. They will always believe exactly what the yammering idiots on right-wing media tell them, no matter how much it requires them to bend over backwards to avoid the plain reality the rest of us see. There is no way they will be given another chance by this country.

    Bush has to keep persuading the public to trust him if he wants to maintain real power, which his arrogance has kept him from even trying to do. For this failure he will lose the ability to manipulate the masses, no matter how loudly his minions at FAUX bang the war drums.

    Faux' own polls now show the disaster facing Bush. Rove has seemed like the genius who can always pull another rabbit out of the hat, but trying to sell America another disastrous war will be Rove's undoing. The incredible stretches Bart now has to make to maintain his own illusions are so transparent to the rest of us that the possibility they will convince Americans of anything are slim to none. What they will succeed in doing, however, will be to show the majority finally how completely unhinged they truly are.

    Bart's repetition of his right-wing talking points show us the vacuousness of their position. They now betray their true motives as they paint a person like Scott Ritter as a flip-flopper who does whatever his party tells him to. This is balatant projection. The only people in America capable of such contortions are the ones still listening to Rush limbaugh. He and all the other right-wing freaks tell bart that the Dems and liberals are enemies who can't be reasoned with (or worked with or compromised with in any way that represents traditional American politics) and must be defeated AT ANY COST. Including allowing the ends to justify the means, which lets lying and manipulation be the basis for their tactics. Bart's been told that somewhere there's a mirror image as loyal to Dems as he and the righties are to the Republicans, who will do and say whatever necessary to put and keep their party in power. Fortunately for all of us, the dems have never been able to put together anything remotely resembling this kind of loyalty, and all you learn from bart as he describes what he thinks are the motivations of someone like Scott Ritter are the depths to which right-wing extremists are willing to sink to mainatin their deathgrip on power.

    Bart can't imagine that somebody would change their mind for reasons other than party loyalty. The idea that Ritter actually was willing to openly contradict things he'd said in the past indicates to most people a healthy willingness to put loyalty to the truth before loyalty to anything else, including a party, or even ones own public image. For most people someone like Ritter represents the highest and best that our military strives to be. His honesty as he challenged those dragging us into the war in Iraq springs from his obvious allegiance to the Constitution. He takes citizenship seriously. For bart this represents a puzzling flipflop that can only be explained by loyalty to a party. That's what he's been told Dems do. They will do anything to keep power. So bart and the right-wingers match the evil dems lie for lie, flip flop for flip flop, and will do anything to make sure the evil ones are DEFEATED UTTERLY.

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  86. Anonymous5:50 PM

    You are incredibly obtuse. The Boston Tea party was directed at the corporations of the day, like the British East India company.

    Are you out of your mind? Nothing -- NOTHING -- could be a better example of how libertarianss today are akin to the folks at the founding. What was pissing them off was a govt EXEMPTION -- a special favor -- for that company, in the form of the Tea Act of 1773, which gave that company the right to export its merchandise directly to the colonies without paying any of the regular taxes the colonial merchants paid. This was bullshit, and threatened to wipe out colonial businesses.

    No taxation without representation, indeed!

    Similarly, more modern libertarians oppose "coporate welfare." Few of us favored the Chrysler bailout.

    Sweet baby Jesus, you folks simply have not the first clue of what libertarians believe.

    Boston freakin' Tea Party (shaking head)...

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous5:52 PM

    You people hold cartoon versions of what it is libertarians, including Hayek, advocate.

    That's because you are kind of cartoony.


    He objected to coercive income redistribution schemes, and to centralized planning. Well that's Hayek. Don't posthumously co-opt all the others you mentioned. They didn't feel that way.


    But he felt that provision of minimal necessities, certainly in emergencies, was not outside of proper govt purview.

    Tell it to the Katrina victims. Your faux political ideology and philosophy interests them greatly.

    ReplyDelete
  88. From David C. Korten:

    Neoliberal Economists. Neoliberal economists embrace two first principles as fundamental articles of faith. One is that individuals are motivated solely by self-interest. The other is that individual choice based on the unrestrained pursuit of self-interest leads to socially optimal outcomes. [See The Betrayal of Adam Smith.] Neoliberal economists provide corporate libertarianism with a patina of intellectual legitimacy.

    Property Rights Advocates. Ardent property rights advocates, sometimes called "market liberals," commonly present themselves as libertarians dedicated to the defense of individual rights and freedoms. While true libertarians seek to defend individual freedom against intrusion from coercive institutions of any kind, market liberals are mostly concerned with protecting the rights from property from public accountability. Those without property have no rights that the market liberal is bound to respect. Market liberals give corporate libertarianism its cast of moral legitimacy.

    Corporations and Members of the Corporate Class. Corporations and members of the corporate class--such as corporate managers, lawyers, consultants, public-relations specialists, financial brokers, and wealthy investors--comprise the third pillar of the corporate libertarian alliance. Some are drawn to corporate libertarianism purely by financial self-interest or because they are paid to do so, others by moral conviction. Although few members of the corporate class have a serious interest in the fine points of academic theories or moral philosophy, they find a natural common cause with those who provide an intellectual and ethical case for freeing corporations from the restraining hand of government and absolving them of moral responsibility for the social and environmental consequences of their actions. Furthermore, they have the financial resources at their disposal to handsomely reward those who legitimate their power.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous5:56 PM

    Sweet baby Jesus, you folks simply have not the first clue of what libertarians believe.

    "There may be two libertarians somewhere who agree with one another, but I am not one of them."
    David Friedman

    I am probably far more familiar with the many flavors of libertarianism than you are and some of them flavors are not worth getting too familiar with. They taste awful.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous6:00 PM

    (4) Poor Scott Ritter!

    Whatever happened to him, anyway?

    5:55 PM


    He's probably a crypto-libertarian that used to vote Republican by default.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous6:00 PM

    Dude, UNSCOM was a seive feeding the Iraqis information. The CIA stopped cooperating with UNSCOM for that reason, a fact which Blix contantly complained of in 2002.

    You just keep going, don't you?

    It is simple, brute fact that UNSCOM was being used by the CIA to spy on Iraq. It is the central reason for its dissolution and the creation of UNMOVIC. Richard Butler and Rolf Ekeus have publicly admitted it. The Amorim Report refers to it explicitly. Do you know the first thing about this subject?

    If you have the slightest bit of evidence for your loony assertions to the contrary, please produce it.

    There is no evidence of this destruction either before or after 1998

    Again, amazing that you believe you can continue to get away with this stuff. I have already dismantled this nonsense of yours before. This is simply and demonstrably false. Again, you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous6:02 PM

    Breaking: CIA Agent Fired for Leaking

    I just happen to flip on CNN – that liberal-commie-socialist network – and Wolf Blitzer was interviewing three people on this topic: Bill Bennett, Tori Clarke, and J.C. Watts – all hard-core conservatives who, unsurprisingly, thought that those Pulitizer Prize winning journalists who reported this leak should go to jail.

    It wasn’t Fox, and it wasn’t “fair and balanced” either. For crying out loud – couldn’t CNN find just one person to say that maybe the reporters who expose government crimes shouldn’t go to jail?

    I guess there’s nobody who even thinks different than Bill Bennett. He has all the answers. At least according to our “liberal” media.

    But my apologies – this thread is now about Hypatia’s libertarian views and no one will ever win a argument with her – ever! That’s just the way it is. She's always right.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous6:03 PM

    From NY Times:

    Mr. Bush later apologized to Mr. Hu for the incident, White House officials said. But Chinese Foreign Ministry officials traveling with Mr. Hu canceled an afternoon briefing. One delegation member, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the subject publicly, described his superiors as outraged by the breach.

    Compounding the gaffe, a White House announcer introducing the national anthems at the same ceremony mistakenly referred to China as the Republic of China, which is the formal name of its archrival.


    These are the people in charge of deciding which Americans and Iraqis, and how many, will die.

    Gen. Tommy Franks is quoted as saying that Libby is the "stupidest bastard I ever met in my life."

    And Franks, no doubt, has had access to some pretty stupid bastards.

    You know, years ago, when we were in exiciting times and forming a magnificent new country, good, patriotic men went into politics.

    No longer. Anyone with half a brain goes into the private sector. Almost all those who go into politics these days are those sell-outs who are willing to go along with a corrupted system.

    No problem. Maybe China is so mad they will sell some dollars now and put us out of our misery.

    "Scary Movie 4" time.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:10 PM

    This is my last post on this, honest. My apologies for hihjacking the thread.

    Even William F. Buckley, Jr., Hypatia...


    Henry George said that the rent of all land ought to be public. ...I am sympathetic with that particular analysis.
    [on Firing Line, PBS, January 6, 1980]


    [an interview with Brian Lamb, CSpan Book Notes, April 2-3, 2000]

    CALLER:Mr. Buckley, it's a pleasure to talk to you. I've heard you describe yourself as a Georgist, a follower of Henry George, but I haven't heard much in having you promote land value taxation and his theories, and I'm wondering why that is the case.

    William F. Buckley: It's mostly because I'm beaten down by my right-wing theorists and intellectual friends. They always find something wrong with the Single-Tax idea. What I'm talking about Mr. Lamb is Henry George who said there is infinite capacity to increase capital and to increase labor, but none to increase land, and since wealth is a function of how they play against each other, land should be thought of as common property. The effect of this would be that if you have a parking lot and the Empire State Building next to it, the tax on the parking lot should be the same as the tax on the Empire State Building, because you shouldn't encourage land speculation. Anyway I've run into tons of situations were I think the Single-Tax theory would be applicable. We should remember also this about Henry George, he was sort of co-opted by the socialists in the 20s and the 30s, but he was not one at all. Alfred J. Nock's book on him makes that plain. Plus, also, he believes in only that tax. He believes in zero income tax...

    B.L.: (Quoting the book) "The first time I met William F. Buckley, we were both members of a televised panel discussing word. The moderator introduced me with a pop-quiz to test my credentials asked me to define the word..." Is it USUFRUCT?

    W.F.B.: Usufruct, yeah.

    B.L. (Quoting the book) "I felt smug as I recite the right to enjoy another's property as long as you don't damage it. Then Mr. Buckley leaned into his microphone and quoted an entire paragraph on usufruct from the political economist, Henry George...

    W.F.B.: The land belongs to those in usufruct.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous6:10 PM

    Porter Goss is heep mad. Doesn't want the Citizens of the United States of America to know their government, without their permission, is buying human beings from bounty hunters and shipping them off to secret gulags around the world to be tortured and killed.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous6:24 PM

    anus wide open -- you are really a hack that misrepresents what everyone you disagree with says and then spout ignorant misinterpretations to try to dismiss what people never said in the first place.

    what a maroon...

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous6:27 PM

    Bart represents that still dwindling % of Americans that remain true to the right-wing extremist cause, and his comments explain exactly the nature of their delusion.

    Bart is just a "copy and paste" troll. He does not represent anyone...

    just dumps crap into the threads and sits back to watch the little morons get up on their tiny soapboxes and derail the discussion.

    This thread certainly is disjointed nonsense...

    Just took bart and a few egotistical morons to destoy the original theme.

    That is all bart stands for...

    nothing more, nothing less

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous6:27 PM

    Paul Rosenberg writes, after telling us that what is rational for an individual isn't the same thing as what is rational for the Republic, that

    (2) Inculcate norms that will alter the calculation of what's rational. (This is known as "normed rationality." It's what impels people to vote even when the election isn't in doubt, for example.)

    Great idea, Paul. After that we can install computer chips in everyone's brain and indoctrinate them into becoming socialists.

    You are a socialist, aren't you?

    Meanwhile the woman who spoke up for freedom of religion and human rights in China is going to prison.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous6:29 PM

    She's always right.

    Only in the sense that idiocy cannot be wrong as long as there is room for more in the thead.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Hypatia: Here is perhaps the anti-corporation libertarian you mean?

    Libertarian-Left Alliance

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous6:31 PM

    Libertarians are not anarchists. We do not object to all laws, all government.

    I get it, now you speak for ALL libertairinas...

    seems like an oximoron somehow, to have to march to someone else's definition...

    Are you sure you are not just another moron?

    Perhaps libertarians are really just contrairians that blame the government for everything.

    That's my story, and I am sticking to it.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous6:43 PM

    Well that's Hayek. Don't posthumously co-opt all the others you mentioned. They didn't feel that way.

    Yes, it most certainly is Hayek. And he is the godfather of libertarianism, even more so than Milton Friedman. Glad we've cleared up, and perhaps you can stop erecting a strawman of "gullible" libertarians so you can easily knock it down.

    And btw, I didn't mention any others, so I don't see how I could be "co-opting" them. If you mean the general reference I made to the Founders, please show me where any of them advocated coerced income redistribution and centralized planning by the govt.

    I repeat: you and some others hold to a very ill-informed and cartoon version of what libertarians supposedly believe. You suggest Michael Shermer's views on why smart people believe weird and false things apply to us, when as I've demonstrated, in reality, Hayek is the 20th century's premier example of a libertarian being trailbalzingly correct about a delusional fantasy adhered to many leftwing intellectuals.

    ReplyDelete
  103. the cynic librarian said...

    [my quote] It seems that Ritter was somewhat naive in 1998. It was later that he realized that the CIA had infiltrated his group of inspectors and were using it to bring about a Hussein coup.

    Bart response: :::heh::: I would enjoy seeing a Ritter quote to this effect. We can add being a fruit loop to his shredded credibility.

    You're about as dishonest as they come. Look at the link I provided, wherein Ritter describes the evolution of his understanding of the CIA infiltration of his group and the fact that Iraq had destroyed its WMDs.


    Try reading your own linked interview before you accuse me of dishonesty.

    The conspiracy theorist interviewer used the term "infiltrated" and Ritter replied: So the CIA did not infiltrate the inspection process. We opened the door and welcomed them in because we needed assistance in tracking and finding these weapons to disarm Iraq. And we welcomed the CIA and any other intelligence organization, as long as they were assisting us in implementing our mandate.

    Therefore, the interviewer rather than Ritter is the fruit loop.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous6:50 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Glenn Greenwald: Pound for pound, the best blogger in the world.


    OK. Finally someone has posted a statement about which there can be no debate.

    Even bart spends most of his time here, when he's not wokring on the mid-term elections, so I doubt even he would dispute that.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Gris Lobo said...

    Bart said: Take your pick of Ritter's reasoning, but the fact remains that he a gross hypocrite with zero credibility.

    And how about Bush who claimed during campaigning that he wasn't into nation building?


    That is easy.

    Bush changed his strategy from real politik to neoconservatism after 9/11.

    Ritter tried to change the facts of his inspections and statements he made to the press in 1998.

    One is a change in strategy while the latter is lying.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous6:53 PM

    This is my last post on this, honest. My apologies for hihjacking the thread.

    Even William F. Buckley, Jr., Hypatia...


    First, I don't know what any of that quote has to do with anything I've said, but Buckely is NOT a libertarian. He is a conservative. Those are very different things. Buckley has advocated that all American young people should be coerced into 2 years national service to the state after they graduate from high school, and that HIV+ men should have their genitals tattooed with a warning.

    You are the one who keeps posting snarky attacks on libertarians, so I finally began answering them. I agree doing so is hijacking the thread, so maybe you won't take cheap and ignorant shots at libertarians in the future, and we can both then behave.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous6:54 PM

    Semanticleo said...
    "I am probably far more familiar with the many flavors of libertarianism than you are and some of them flavors are not worth getting too familiar with. They taste awful."

    E.g.

    The imitation vanilla flavor of
    Glenn Reynolds.


    Yes :). He's just ice milk. No cream.

    Buckley's espousal or Georgist economics makes him a distant cousin of the dreaded Mutualist Free Market Anti-Capitalists and anarcho-syndicalist. Buckley is a Geo-libertarian. No wonder those right wing ideologue friends of his want to shut him up.

    ReplyDelete
  108. yankeependragon said...

    From anonymous at 2:41PM: "In Bart's defense I'd like to point out that he admits to being a libertarian in college. He could just be a gullible idiot."

    Actually one of my graduate advisors was an avowed libertarian. He was sharp enough about his material, but tended to be a bit 'pie in the sky' in terms of application.

    My point is libertarians per se aren't automatically idiots, but they are prone to cognitive dissonance when confronted with the chaotic mess of daily life. Probably explains why they prefer to remain in academia and right-end think tanks, eh?


    Libertarians are unrealistic utopians. However, prior to the Reagan Revolution, they were the only alternative I had to the Socialist Dems and the Socialist Lite Elephants.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous6:58 PM

    It is said that other Presidents without congressional authority have taken possession of private business enterprises in order to settle labor disputes. But even if this be true, Congress has not thereby lost its exclusive constitutional authority to make laws necessary and proper to carry out the powers vested by the Constitution "in the Government of the United States, or any Department or Officer thereof."

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:58 PM

    so maybe you won't take cheap and ignorant shots at libertarians in the future

    Not likely. When you are wearing a clown's nose you are going to get it tweaked. Take the lampshade off your head if you don't want people to make fun of you.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous7:00 PM

    Libertarians are unrealistic utopians. However, prior to the Reagan Revolution, they were the only alternative I had to the Socialist Dems and the Socialist Lite Elephants.

    Now that is a complete clown suit with lampshade on head.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous said...

    How many functioning libertarian governments on this planet, Hypatia?

    Hong Kong (pre return to China) and, to a lesser extent, the US and the British Isles.

    How many functioning social democracies?

    None. Every single one is economically stagnant and literally dying off for failure to reproduce. That is not functional.

    The freer the economy within reason, the more prosperous.

    Bart wrote this: The Middle East is a perfect breeding ground for fascism because the people who are part of this movement are usually educated enough to know they are being left behind by history and they feel powerless to do anything about it.

    Conservatism is a perfect breeding ground for fascism because the people who are part of this movement are usually educated enough to know they are being left behind by history and they feel powerless to do anything about it.


    Hardly. All the major reforms for the past 25 years are conservative. The liberals are reduced to the reactionary party of NO trying to stop further reforms.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous7:31 PM

    cynic librarian writes: Hypatia: Here is perhaps the anti-corporation libertarian you mean?

    Well, no. That discussion of that particular Lew Rockwell piece contains much I agree with (including why at this juncture there is less to fear from the left than from what currently passes as the right), but not really on the issue of corporations. Moreover, I cannot fathom why Rockwell, who decries the Bush GOP's religion-driven policies, gives a platform to a Dominionist "libertarian" like Gary North. But he does. I think that is insane and evil.

    Many people think libertarians worship big business and that we believe it can do no wrong. This is just nuts. Big business is not teeming with libertarians, and there is a reason for that. Big business benefits from big government.

    Large corporations can retain an army of CPAs, lawyers and lobbyists, all of whom can devise creative use of the current bloat of statutes on the books, and who can pressure for passage of even more laws to their benefit. The more laws, the more regulations, then the harder it is for small upstart firms -- who don't have legions of expensive professionals at their beck and call to navigate a Byzantine regulatory and legal system -- to enter the field and compete.

    Big business may be conservative in areas like capital gains taxes, but it isn't devoted to small govt. It is not in its interest to be so.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous7:33 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Referring to Bart


    You're about as dishonest as they come.

    In Bart's defense I'd like to point out that he admits to being a libertarian in college. He could just be a gullible idiot. He could be a lying gullible idiot as well. He doesn't lie very well, does he?


    I am getting so damn sick of these "anons" (bart's other computer) who keep coming here pretending to discredit Bart with a few quotes, and then trying to pass him off as a "troll", "cut or paster", "idiot", "hack lawyer with time on his hands", etc.

    Bart doesn't cut and paste from anywhere. They cut and paste from him.

    Bart is a highly intelligent (although totally amoral) inidividual who has a high level position in Bushco, and every single one of his posts represents the exact heavily researched and drafted and redrafted Administration positions you will find, days later, on all the right wing sites who shill for the Administration.

    You will also find his arguments coming from the mouths of MSM types and in interviews with government officials.

    Bart runs them by us here first so we can do his research for him in bringing to light any obvious easily refuted holes in his arguments or easy "paper trail" contradictions, and after he has thus "vetted" them and run them by the most aware, intelligent audience he is likely to have working for him gratis, he then distributes his final drafts to the appropriate places.

    Why has it taken so long for even the intelligent posters on this site who are not "bart's alter-egos" plants to see this?

    Can't anyone READ?

    If Bushco can even infiltrate this site so effortlessly and not have anyone detect its big foot right in our midst, what hope is there for the people out there who don't have half the intelligence of the bloggers on this site?

    Frankly, I don't know how much time Glenn has on his hands to read all the comments here which is sort of a full time job in itself, but I think Glenn has recognized this same fact (either consciously or subconsciously) and when he spars with bart, it's because the lawyer in him cannot resist exposing the fallacies in what bart writes and taking him head on. After all, Glenn thinks that debunking all this stuff is an important part of the process of effectuating change and has said so.

    But that should be between Glenn and bart, a useful exchange, and the rest of us should not, in my humble opinion, make life any easier for bart by helping him draft the Administration's consistently false "talking point" responses to each new charge against them.

    Exhibit "A": How many times have these people appeared here to tell us bart just "copies and pastes" his comments here?

    Let one of them come forth now and reprint one of bart's former comments with the time and date of same and direct us to where he "copied and pasted" that comment from.

    The prosecution rests (until proven wrong)

    ReplyDelete
  115. Holy Cow! Are we going to get Continuing Education Credits for reading this blog?

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous7:56 PM

    hypatia writes: I would argue that this nation was essentially libertarian at its Founding

    Of course it was. That's so obvious it cannot be refuted.

    The problem is that "Libertarian" by the 1960's when some of the "Libertarian movements" came into existence had morphed so radically from the libertarian thinking of the founders that they had become two different animals: a sheep and a dog, as it were :)

    That is why when Ayn Rand, who many still wrongly think of as a libertarian, so vigorously rejected Nathaniel Branden's suggestion that she call her own body of ideas "Libertarianism."

    She viewed the people who were calling themselves libertarians in the 60's and 70's as foolish and contrary to the Founders' philosophy of government, which she revered, same as she viewed the then present Republicans, Democrats and most especially, right wing Christian Conservatives.
    She thought National Review was the most dangerous magazine in America.

    Turned out she was right. What did it ever spawn but a bunch of neocons who may well have succeeded in destroying the greatest, most powerful nation in human history?

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous8:24 PM

    You know, I'm kinda depressed. I am not really happy only having a
    DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
    and a

    SECRET SERVICE SECRET POLICE FORCE

    and a
    DEPARTMENT OF DISINFORMATION.

    I'm bored with all those fine organizations.

    I demand a DEPARTMENT OF THE PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS OF THE FOREIGN POLICY POSITIONS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES and after that I want a DEPARTMENT TO ENFORCE ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS TO FILL OUT POLL DATE ANSWERING PAUL ROSENBERG'S QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK, EAT, SAY, DO, WANT, EARN, Etc."

    I want these new departments because I want a sophisticated Trotsyite with the tools of modern marketing at his disposal to be able to formluate the positions of his POLLING PARTY OF THE PEOPLE'S REVOLUTIONARY PARTY's candidates so they figure out what positions to endorse to best manipulate the American People into voting for them so they can control them.

    I demand that, in fact.

    I am tired of straight talking people like Glenn Greenwald and Paul Craig Roberts who are content to merely speak the truth and form their positions based on facts and principle and morality and are too lazy and stupid to commission a lot of polls and some pinko manipulators to interpret them so they would know what they should REALLY be writing.

    What dinosaurs these people are who rely on plainly spoken truths guided by a decent sense of morality instead of utilizing the Daily Kos and Paul Rosenberg's and all the DNC and the RNC blah blah modern psychological polling and mind controlling techniques to rise to power. And control others.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous8:25 PM

    Since you repeatedly make this copy-and-paste claim, how about showing us some evidence?

    Since you profess to know it all, I will defer it to your greatness...

    You obviously don't have a clue about how search tools index the net... Do you really believe these are "real time" searches?

    As someone that has been following the blog since little bart and his off-topic talking points showed up, I only have one response to you:

    I AM NOT YOUR MONKEY!

    But get up on your little soapbox if you must and engage the troll...

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous8:25 PM

    Well, the war was undertaken to resolve emotional issues, not to meet real-world objectives. Attempts to square the pretextual real-world objectives with actual real-world concerns are not welcome to the discussion. This is happening with Iran too. We see people presenting as their reasons for supporting war the most inane bogeyman scenarios ('Iran will acquire a nuclear weapon and hand it over to terrorists to attack New York City'). Critics of those positions are derided as unrealistic ('you trust the terrorists?').

    The reason people can engage in this as their serious contribution to our discourse is because, perhaps without realizing it, these people are basing their positions entirely on emotion. This is how counterevidence is so easily discarded.

    To such people, optics and emotional correctness will always trump the realities.

    This attitude not only characterizes a large number of Bush followers, but I think it also is the key to understanding Bush and his thinking.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous8:29 PM

    anus wide open, implicit in your comment is that these are just talking points that are being "dropped into" the thread to disrupt and generate discourse.

    That is "copy and paste"

    But don't let your a-hole slam shut on your way out!

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:32 PM

    Well, the war was undertaken to resolve emotional issues, not to meet real-world objectives.

    LOL!!!!!!

    The inability of some small minds to comprehend the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars that the war is generating for the military-industrial complex it totally mind-boggling.

    Like objective, verifiable, measurable facts have no place in a discussion about war....

    Its all about economic issue, moron, and it isn't for the benefit of you or me.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous8:33 PM

    ...key to understanding Bush and his thinking.

    And BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS has nothing to do with this....

    Geez....

    Where do you get this powerful kool-aide?

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous8:35 PM

    Well, what the hell. If libertarians can co-opt this thread to be about Hayek, then by gosh, I can spew something totally unrelated to Scott Ritter, but actually, more relevant: Neil Young in his latest interview:

    YOUNG: We don`t all have to believe in what our president believes to be patriotic. And we also -- you know, this talk about a 9/11 mentality. No one, George Bush or anyone else, owns the 9/11 mentality.

    It belongs to the United States of America; it belongs to every one who was sitting there with their family watching TV, watching those buildings get hit by those jets; it belongs to George Bush and his family; it belongs to John Kerry and his family; it belongs to me and my family, my American family.

    So I have a post-9/11 mentality. It`s just not the same as George Bush`s.


    Oh my gosh, did you hear what that damn socialist Canadian just said?

    That Bush doesn’t own 9/11! Ooooooh… wacky, wacky stuff. What do you expect from a dope-smoking commie-hippie who is completely out of it?

    Of course we all know that there is only one view of 9/11 and that is the one orchestrated by Karl Rove. All other views are treasonous submissions to the terrorists – dhimmitude of the first order. Or something like that.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous8:46 PM

    No, Paul, I never had a class in civics. Those of us who went to school during the Punic Wars missed all of that.

    Do tell me all about it, however....

    PS. Hypatia, take heart. Although I disagree with you on the Supreme Court, mostly because I think your thinking isn't "liberatarian" enough, you have written some truly terrific stuff on this thread today.

    Nothing makes pinkos more mad than when a capitalist has facts at her fingertips and can refute their tired, old, discredited Stalinist arguments.

    BTW, the "corporations" of today, the great majority of them, have about as much to do with laissez-faire capitalism as does hard- core communism. They are the antithesis of it, in fact, and could only exist in their present form by being enabled by the type of big, corrupt, runaway government that the leftists go to bed dreaming about....

    ReplyDelete
  125. hypatia: I posted this synopsis of "corporate libertarians" from David Korten. Is this what you're talking about as far as libertarians being co-opted by big biz?:

    Neoliberal Economists. Neoliberal economists embrace two first principles as fundamental articles of faith. One is that individuals are motivated solely by self-interest. The other is that individual choice based on the unrestrained pursuit of self-interest leads to socially optimal outcomes. [See The Betrayal of Adam Smith.] Neoliberal economists provide corporate libertarianism with a patina of intellectual legitimacy.

    Property Rights Advocates. Ardent property rights advocates, sometimes called "market liberals," commonly present themselves as libertarians dedicated to the defense of individual rights and freedoms. While true libertarians seek to defend individual freedom against intrusion from coercive institutions of any kind, market liberals are mostly concerned with protecting the rights from property from public accountability. Those without property have no rights that the market liberal is bound to respect. Market liberals give corporate libertarianism its cast of moral legitimacy.

    Corporations and Members of the Corporate Class. Corporations and members of the corporate class--such as corporate managers, lawyers, consultants, public-relations specialists, financial brokers, and wealthy investors--comprise the third pillar of the corporate libertarian alliance. Some are drawn to corporate libertarianism purely by financial self-interest or because they are paid to do so, others by moral conviction. Although few members of the corporate class have a serious interest in the fine points of academic theories or moral philosophy, they find a natural common cause with those who provide an intellectual and ethical case for freeing corporations from the restraining hand of government and absolving them of moral responsibility for the social and environmental consequences of their actions. Furthermore, they have the financial resources at their disposal to handsomely reward those who legitimate their power.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous8:52 PM

    I AM NOT YOUR MONKEY = no evidence.

    Good try, bart, but not good enough...... heh heh

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous9:01 PM

    nuf, I apologize if I got that wrong about Libby and Feith, and thank you for pointing that out. I had written that from memory after reading a long article about Franks a few days ago but will go back and post a link to the actual article which links to the actual interview.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous9:30 PM

    A CIA agent has been fired for leaking classified information to the media: Oh wait, you folks don’t ever, ever read a right wing site. Sorry. Let me give you another site. Oh wait, you folks never look at Faux News. Well, guess you will just have to wait until one of your pundits gives you permission to read it, if that ever happens:

    “CIA officials will not reveal the officer's name, assignment, or the information that was leaked. The firing is a highly unusual move, although there has been an ongoing investigation into leaks in the CIA.
    One official called this a "damaging leak" that deals with operational information and said the fired officer "knowingly and willfully" leaked the information to the media and "was caught."
    The CIA officer was not in the public affairs office, nor was he someone authorized to talk to the media. The investigation was launched in January by the CIA's security center. It was directed to look at employees who had been exposed to certain intelligence programs. [Maybe the programs Mr. Greenwald is so exorcised about?] In the course of the investigation, the fired officer admitted discussing classified information including information about classified operations.
    The investigation is ongoing.
    A Justice Department spokesman said "no comment" on the firing. The spokesman also would not say whether the agency was looking into any criminal action against the officer.”

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous9:35 PM

    I'll defend Bart:

    He used to post all his inane comments in all bold letters. He doesn't anymore.

    His excuse, that his "old man's eyes" necessitated it, which considering he never had trouble reading anyone else's comments, and shouldn't be having trouble reading his own writing, was unfortunately as inane as his perpetual apologism though.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous9:36 PM

    Great.

    Another thread that is hijacked by a debate about Bart.

    Who cares if Bart is a troll or not?

    If you believe he is a troll, don't respond.

    If you think he is not a troll, respond when and if Bart gives some actual evidence of reading the thread and giving a thoughtful, reasoned response to it.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous9:45 PM

    Eyes Wide Open said...

    Bart is a highly intelligent (although totally amoral) inidividual who has a high level position in Bushco, and every single one of his posts represents the exact heavily researched and drafted and redrafted Administration positions you will find, days later, on all the right wing sites who shill for the Administration.


    Not too impressed with the "smarts" Bart portrays here, nor those displayed by the administration. Not too impressed with yours, either.

    You will also find his arguments coming from the mouths of MSM types and in interviews with government officials.

    This is a joke, right?

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous9:46 PM

    The anon who posts and posts and posts and posts and posts to let us all know its a waste of time to keep posting things that anon considers wastes if time has no sense of irony.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous10:07 PM

    I see Bart specializes in DUI defense. Interesting. I think we should query him on that... it might prove interesting.


    Eyes Wide Open said...
    hypatia writes: I would argue that this nation was essentially libertarian at its Founding

    Of course it was. That's so obvious it cannot be refuted...


    It's difficult to choose the funniest, most bizarre comments you post but this one has to be one of the funniest. You mini-archists are a hoot and a holler.

    ReplyDelete
  134. hypatia: I cannot fathom why Rockwell, who decries the Bush GOP's religion-driven policies, gives a platform to a Dominionist "libertarian" like Gary North

    I have seen your antipathy toward religion expressed here before. I'll grant you that North is not your typical evangelical, but I don't think that necessarily means thgat the evangelical lower classes and their rage should be written off. Their rage is perhaps well-advised, given the hypocrisy of the liberal establishment.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous10:23 PM

    Libertarianism In One Lesson


    No, this isn't David Bergland's evangelistic text. This is an outsider's view of the precepts of libertarianism. I hope you can laugh at how close this is to real libertarianism!

    Introduction

    One of the most attractive features of libertarianism is that it is basically a very simple ideology. Maybe even simpler than Marxism, since you don't have to learn foreign words like "proletariat".

    This brief outline will give you most of the tools you need to hit the ground running as a freshly indoctrinated libertarian ideologue. Go forth and proselytize!


    Philosophy
    In the beginning, man dwelt in a state of Nature, until the serpent Government tempted man into Initial Coercion.

    Government is the Great Satan. All Evil comes from Government, and all Good from the Market, according to the Ayatollah Rand.

    We must worship the Horatio Alger fantasy that the meritorious few will just happen to have the lucky breaks that make them rich.

    Libertarians happen to be the meritorious few by ideological correctness. The rest can go hang.

    Government cannot own things because only individuals can own things. Except for corporations, partnerships, joint ownership, marriage, and anything else we except but government.

    Parrot these arguments, and you too will be a singular, creative, reasoning individualist.

    Parents cannot choose a government for their children any more than they can choose language, residence, school, or religion.

    Taxation is theft because we have a right to squat in the US and benefit from defense, infrastructure, police, courts, etc. without obligation.

    Magic incantations can overturn society and bring about libertopia. Sovereign citizenry! The 16th Amendment is invalid! States rights!

    Objectivist/Neo-Tech Advantage #69i : The true measure of fully integrated honesty is whether the sucker has opened his wallet. Thus sayeth the Profit Wallace. Zonpower Rules Nerdspace!

    The great Zen riddle of libertarianism: minimal government is necessary and unnecessary. The answer is only to be found by individuals.

    Government

    Libertarians invented outrage over government waste, bureaucracy, injustice, etc. Nobody else thinks they are bad, knows they exist, or works to stop them.

    Enlightenment comes only through repetition of the sacred mantra "Government does not work" according to Guru Browne.

    Only government is force, no matter how many Indians were killed by settlers to acquire their property, no matter how many blacks were enslaved and sold by private companies, no matter how many heads of union members are broken by private police.

    Money that government touches spontaneously combusts, destroying the economy. Money retained by individuals grows the economy, even if literally burnt.

    Private education works, public education doesn't. The publicly educated masses that have grown the modern economies of the past 150 years are an illusion.

    Market failures, trusts, and oligopolies are lies spread by the evil economists serving the government as described in the "Protocols of the Elders of Statism".

    Central planning cannot work. Which is why all businesses internally are run like little markets, with no centralized leadership.

    Paternalism is the worst thing that can be inflicted upon people, as everyone knows that fathers are the most hated and reviled figures in the world.

    Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearsome master. Therefore, we should avoid it entirely, as we do all forms of combustion.

    Regulation

    The FDA is solely responsible for any death or sickness where it might have prevented treatment by the latest unproven fad.

    Children, criminals, death cultists, and you all have the same inalienable right to own any weaponry: conventional, chemical, biological, or nuclear.

    All food, drugs, and medical treatments should be entirely unregulated: every industry should be able to kill 300,000 per year in the US like the tobacco industry.

    If you don't have a gun, you are not a libertarian. If you do have a gun, why don't you have even more powerful armament?

    Better to abolish all regulations, consider everything as property, and solve all controversy by civil lawsuit over damages. The US doesn't have enough lawyers, and people who can't afford to invest many thousands of dollars in lawsuits should shut up.

    Libertarian Party

    The Libertarian Party is well on its way to dominating the political landscape, judging from its power base of 100+ elected dogcatchers and other important officials after 25 years of effort.

    The "Party of Oxymoron": "Individualists unite!"

    Flip answers are more powerful than the best reasoned arguments, which is why so many libertarians are in important government positions.

    It's time the new pro-freedom libertarian platform was implemented; child labor, orphanages, sweatshops, poorhouses, company towns, monopolies, trusts, cartels, blacklists, private goons, slumlords, etc.

    Libertarianism "rules" Internet political debate the same way US Communism "ruled" pamphleteering.

    No compromise from the "Party of Principle". Justice, happiness, liberty, guns, and other good stuff come only from rigidly adhering to inflexible dogmas.

    Minimal government is whatever we say it is, and we don't agree.
    Government is "moving steadily in a libertarian direction" with every change libertarians approve of; no matter if it takes one step forward and two steps backwards.

    Yes, the symbol of the Libertarian Party is a Big Government Statue. It's not supposed to be funny or ironic!

    Political Debate Strategy

    Count only the benefits of libertarianism, count only the costs of government.

    Five of a factoid beats a full argument.

    All historical examples are tainted by statism, except when they favor libertarian claims.

    Spiritually baptize the deceased as libertarians because they cannot protest the anachronism: Locke, Smith, Paine, Jefferson, Spooner, etc.

    The most heavily armed libertarian has the biggest dick and thus the best argument.

    The best multi-party democratic republics should be equated to the worst dictatorships for the purposes of denouncing statism. It's only a matter of degree.

    Inviolate private property is the only true measure of freedom. Those without property have the freedom to try to acquire it. If they can't, let them find somebody else's property to complain on.

    Private ownership is the cure for all problems, despite the historical record of privately owned states such as Nazi Germany, Czarist and Stalinist Russia, and Maoist China.

    Require perfection as the only applicable standard to judge government: libertarianism, being imaginary, cannot be fairly judged to have flaws.

    Only libertarian economists' Nobel Prizes count: the other economists and Nobel Prize Committee are mistaken.

    Any exceptional case of private production proves that government ought not to be involved.



    Coming soon: Libertarianism in One Lesson; The Second Lesson

    Why is there a second lesson when the title says one lesson? Libertarianism is so double-plus-good. For the humor-impaired.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Glenn: "It seems obvious . . a rational person -- the next time a similar debate arose -- would be more inclined to listen to those who were right, and less inclined to listen to those who were wrong."

    Are we sure who's really right and wrong to listen to; and are we listening to the right people? [ Get ready for Yearly Kos ! ]

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous10:37 PM

    Libertarianism in One Lesson; The Second Lesson

    Why is there a second lesson when the title says one lesson? Libertarianism is so double-plus-good that through the magic of libertarian accounting we can insist that 1+1=1. See the first bulleted entry for further explanation.

    Introduction

    Refresher time in libertarianism! Some of you might begin to doubt our generation-long barrage of libertarian propaganda due to the stubborn reluctance of reality to conform to libertarian ideology.

    Never fear! Even if you are in the wasteheap of history, the market in its wisdom grants you a period of unemployment during which you can reinstill your dogmatic certitude. We have a fresh crop of excuses to memorize that will convince you of your own brilliance! Smite the unprepared!

    Libertarian Party USA

    So what if David Bergland's "Libertarianism In One Lesson" has 99 pages in 16 numbered chapters. Why would you think that was more than one lesson?

    America's fastest declining political party!

    Harry Browne had it right in his 2000 campain. Trust to the efficacy of the market! As soon as you threaten to put a bounty on the head of a terrorist, all your terrorism problems will be solved.

    We cannot trust government to get anything right. We should look to examples of private organizations such as the Libertarian Party USA as role models; even if they cannot count their declining membership, balance their budget, or tell their members the truth about their finances.

    If markets are the best allocation mechanism, libertarians should demand that the party's positions should be sold to the highest bidders. Forget that voting crap: it's initiation of force! Surely the highest bidder will represent libertarian interests better than anyone else.

    Libertarians are to liberty as conservatives are to conservation!

    Libertarianism Has The Answers!

    Libertarianism is based on natural rights; no, neutrality; no, non-aggression; no, responsability; no, self ownership; no, property rights; no, ....

    When is it legitimate to initiate the use of force against others? Never! Unless, of course, you really need to initiate force... then it's pre-emptive protection of property rights.

    Of course libertarianism is compatible with Christianity! Just substitute "the market" for "Jesus", and ask "What would the market do?"

    It is more parsimonious and economically austere to consider only the libertarian side of the argument.

    Net funding for charitable works and public goods will increase when the taxes that currently support them are abolished. After all, don't we all donate our tax refund checks to charity?

    Trendy buzzwords like 'chaos theory' irrefutably prove that Government interferes with the 'spontaneous order' of free people.

    Criticism of libertarianism is destructive. Criticism of society by libertarians is constructive.

    Nostalgia for bygone "golden eras" will guide us better than the actual historical record of their suffering, corruption, cruelty, inequality of rights, and primitive standards of living.

    Nobody has a right to free food or medical care or other amenities. Children are thus either imaginary or property.

    Our libertarian ideas are boldly nonconformist, yet conveniently reaffirm our desire to do nothing but complain.

    Libertarians get to define who the classical liberals were. If they weren't just like libertarians, no matter how famous, they should be stricken from the rolls. Rousseau? Faugh!

    Government

    Public schools are a monopoly: a staggering 80% of American children attend them in thousands of independently run school districts. Microsoft is not a monopoly: only 95% of computers use MSWindows.

    Government causes pollution, crime, discrimination, slavery, poverty, and all the other evils of the world. Businesses and individuals only produce wealth: they are not involved and not responsible for any of those problems.

    Taxation is slavery, but rent is not. Even if you pay more in rent, even if you have also chosen where you pay taxes.

    DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT the fact that the Internet came from a government project.

    Gang rape is democracy. Five people say "Yes," one person says "No," and the majority rules. Which is why gang rape is legal in every state.

    America was much more libertarian 150 years ago, before Big Government, when women, children, and slaves were the property of white males, and killing indians for their land was Manifest Destiny.

    A practice common in business is insufferable by government. Pay for government services? Insufferable!

    Four legs gooooood, two legs baaaaaad. Private gooooood, government baaaaaad.

    All government activity is use of force, and thus volence. Yes, this includes public libraries: don't you see the violence inherent in the creation of public libraries?

    Markets

    Only markets, promoted by those wise liberals of the 18th century, can solve coordination problems. Democratic representative governments, which were foisted upon us by those same deluded liberals of the 18th century, result in chaos and difficulty finding good servants.

    When government provides a service, it is a crutch. When private enterprise provides the same service, you are a manly man to purchase it.

    Big media have a virulent anti-business bias because they report on harmful business practices. Truth is no defense against our accusations of bias, nor is the observation that big media ARE big business.

    There are no market failures, only government failures. Which is why we should abolish corporations, patents, copyright and other intellectual property; they are established by government interference with free markets.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous10:41 PM

    My sense of irony is in fine fettle. It's ironic, given the vapidity of his posts, that this the the third or fourth thread diverted onto a discussion of Bart and how he is treated.

    Respond or don't respond depending on whether or not you think he's a troll. But why waste time assessing Bart's motivations or discussing whether posters should be responding to Bart?

    Scott Ritter is a lot more interesting.

    And I wouldn't be anon if I could get this site to consistently accept my user name.

    AJ

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous10:41 PM

    cynic librarian: I have seen your antipathy toward religion expressed here before. I'll grant you that North is not your typical evangelical, but I don't think that necessarily means thgat the evangelical lower classes and their rage should be written off. Their rage is perhaps well-advised, given the hypocrisy of the liberal establishment.

    I see. Gary North wants to execute homosexuals and adulterous women, and to repeal free speech and freedom of religion. But that is merely my supposed "antipathy to religion" when I point that out. Ok.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Hypatia: Yeah, that's what I meant. ... As I said, you shouldn't measure all evangelicals by North's demonically deranged hatreds. So, again, you're not necessarily opposed to religion per se?

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous11:08 PM

    cynic librarian: As I said, you shouldn't measure all evangelicals by North's demonically deranged hatreds. So, again, you're not necessarily opposed to religion per se?

    You are dishonest. You cited a Rockwell discussion; Rockwell is a North apologist, and I objected. Never, not once, did I utter a word about evangelicals or about their being like Gary North. My point was your invoking an apologist for a fascist like North.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous11:08 PM

    So let's just rename this BART'S BLOG already....

    Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    All these tiny little soapboxes and so little soap...

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous11:12 PM

    Shrug.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous11:16 PM

    notherbob2 said...
    A CIA agent has been fired for leaking classified information to the media: Oh wait, you folks don’t ever, ever read a right wing site. Sorry. Let me give you another site. Oh wait, you folks never look at Faux News. Well, guess you will just have to...Zzzzzzzzz


    Lawyer: Rice Allegedly Leaked Defense Info

    ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice leaked national defense information to a pro-Israel lobbyist in the same manner that landed a lower-level Pentagon official a 12-year prison sentence, the lobbyist's lawyer said Friday...

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous11:18 PM

    Hypatia is an evangelist. A libertarian evangelist.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous11:35 PM

    Anonymous said...
    My sense of irony is in fine fettle. It's ironic, given the vapidity of his posts, that this the the third or fourth thread diverted onto a discussion of Bart and how he is treated.


    There is an Arab saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

    Maybe in warfare, but I don't buy that, not where ideology and politcs is concerned. It offends me that Eyes Wide Shut has the poor taste to link to a racist site like VDare just to post some anti-bush Drivel from a total clown like Paul Craig Roberts. I feel the same way about Ron Paul and his anti-Bush drivel and the John Birch society, which is totally anti-Bush. None of these people are any friends of mine and the fact that they are now anti-Bush when they voted for him before only goes to show how incredibly stupid and gullible and useless they really are. They should just disappear. The world won't miss them. Soon.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous11:50 PM

    Musical interlude time. I think you will all really enjoy this music video:

    Billion Dollar Cheney

    Catchy tune, featuring George Washington, Ben Franklin, the US Consitution, and others.....

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous12:12 AM

    Disarmament board chooses Iranian

    Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), who heads the House subcommittee on the Middle East issued a statement in which she compared the decision to "appointing a serial killer to serve as a juror in a murder trial."

    Neutral group, that House subcommittee...

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous12:19 AM

    notherbob, I printed that about the CIA leak earlier on the thread. The police let Huffington Post carry that item, and that's where I first saw it. Bring us some news story that is not on a non-right site that is only on a "right" site please.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous12:49 AM

    Cheney has tapped Iranian expatriate, arms dealer to surveil discussions with Iran, officials say

    “In my experience it would be highly unusual and even extraordinary if the Office of the Vice President would have such activities,” the ex-State Department official said. Yet the source added that the current Vice Presidency is in itself “unusual” and “extraordinary.”

    As reported by RAW STORY last Thursday, the Defense Department has created a special operations arm of various Iranian dissidents, using terror group Mujahedeen-e Khalq to conduct operations on the ground in Iran. According to current and former intelligence officials, the latest revelations of Ghorbanifar’s involvement again illustrate that Cheney and the Pentagon continue to work on the periphery of protocol in order to bypass US intelligence agencies and resources.

    Reports of the Bush administration’s interest in meeting with Iranian officials continue to suggest that it is Iran that is pushing back against diplomatic talks. Yet all three intelligence sources and sources close to the UN Security Council say it is the US that is squashing attempts at talks between the two nations.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous12:52 AM

    I agree with you that its often a waste of time to respond to Bart, and I have no problem skimming and skipping the ones I don't want to read through. Reading threads that trail off into familiar wasted area is a waste of my time. But if I attach a little reminder every time I see people wasting time that way, what does my reminder become? Especially if I post it almost every time I see this objectionable thing happen, and especially if I add no actual content but just remind everybody for the umpteenth time what a waste of time their Bart responses are. If their waste of time is bad, what is the one I add by posting my reminder every time I see it happen? A meta-waste of time! How fun to skip through threads of wasted time, only to have to skip over a whole 'nother level of wasted effort as I skip over your constant reminders about what a waste of time it all is. And how idiotic everybody is for doing it. And stupid.

    What if I got really upset about your extra added waste of time and decided to post my own level, every time you remind everybody what a waste of time it is to respond to Bart, I'll remind them and you what a waste of time it is for you to point it out every time. Then I can have my own special meta-meta-waste of time that I'll champion. I'd be as ironical as you.
    But Bart actually is pretty well spoken, and he doesn't cut and paste. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you just mean he gets his stuff from right-wing sites etc and posts it here. Which he does. And he doesn't usually make any argumenst, he just makes claims. Over and over, as if that makes them well-founded. But he's ususally thought things through and remains adamant. Its true he accepts a different set of facts about the world than most here do, but it can be useful to engage people you disagree with instead of calling them stupid and shouting them down. Then we'd just a big echo-chamber like many sites on the right-wing blogosphere. We'd be just like them, and you can't want that. And even though you claim otherwise, he isn't alone, and he does represent a significant % of the population who agrees with him. And they are the ones who we have to convince to change their minds if we hope to change our govt. It might be that they'll just disappear, but I doubt it.

    And everybody here pretty much understands that Bart often is trying to divert a thread or set up a straw man, but reminding us what a waste of time it is every time it happens is just as much a waste of your and our time as it is for people to engage Bart constantly. As I say, I could remind you and everybody of that fact every time you do it. But that wouldn't really make me ironic. I was being polite. It would make me a hypocrite.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous1:04 AM

    Still in the process of reading the Fox news interview with Ritter in Sept. 2002, and I come across this:

    Richard Butler allowed the United States to use the United Nations weapons-inspection process as a Trojan horse to insert intelligence capabilities into Iraq, which were not approved by the United Nations and which did not facilitate the disarmament process, were instead focused on the security of Saddam Hussein and military targets.


    So Saddam resisted more inspections at least partly due to CIA infiltrators' attempts to orchestrate his removal. And that resistance was "interpreted" as non-compliance with the UNSC resolutions. Which led to invasion. No WMD and CIA engineered non-compliance. Wonderful.

    More lies and deceptions. Let's get the "impeachment" inquiries going before it's too late.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous1:47 AM

    Yes to Ritter's insights, and at the very heart of the consumer-citizen beast is a drooling addiction to violence and war.

    After all, the consumer-citizen's high level of consumption is made possible only from the fruits of its very vigorous, oppressive, and violent commercial and military empire.

    Yes, we bark and then kill on command. Well, not me personally. It would interrupt my consumption.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous2:12 AM

    Eyes Wide Open said: “Bring us some news story that is not on a non-right site that is only on a "right" site please.”
    OK. You are not as tightly enclosed in the cocoon as I thought. By the way, I don’t think that this person is the one who leaked to the NYT on the NSA “Scandal”. If they get that SOB (compliments to Arne) it will be a much bigger story. Still, I felt an obligation to penetrate the cocoon with some real info. Apparently the police felt that this particular story was safe to pass through.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous2:23 AM

    bart said...

    Bush changed his strategy from real politik to neoconservatism after 9/11.

    Sorta like telling everyone your a Democrat and then declaring yourself a Republican after the election right Bart?

    Of course that doesn't explain all of the neo-conservatives he surrounded himself with before and after the election. Fact is he lied just like he's lied dozens of other times.


    Most of us, presumably, know enough "Average Joe" types to fill a room. Most of us, presumably, don't know a single "Average Joe" type who could pull off a trick like the one reported by the New York Times last week. The issue centered, once again, around a memo that was drafted before the invasion of Iraq.

    "During a private two-hour meeting in the Oval Office on Jan. 31, 2003," read the Times, "Bush made clear to Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain that he was determined to invade Iraq without the second resolution, or even if international arms inspectors failed to find unconventional weapons, said a confidential memo about the meeting written by Mr. Blair's top foreign policy adviser and reviewed by the New York Times."

    etc. ad nauseum

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous2:58 AM

    Ah, the cloak of the "anonymous"....

    I wanted to find some early articles by PCR to read his writings in 2002 and 2003, the early days to the build up and eventual invasion of Iraq.

    I typed in Paul Craig Roberts Syndicated Columns in the search box (I understand he is a very widely syndicated columnist whose articles have appeared for a good many years on many left and right different sites) and a list came up of various articles he had written.

    I scrolled down to the 2002 and 2003 articles, and selected a few which seemed to be about Iraq. Glenn's topic of today is that it is that it makes sense to evaluate what various individuals wrote years ago to weigh in that factor when deciding how much credit to give to the various predictions and prescriptions for action that various writers who were speaking out then are setting forth today.

    I never have gone directly to VDare and frankly have no idea what it's viewpoint is on any particular matter.

    Nevertheless, the fearless "anon" is "offended" that I dared to post a link to that site to reference an article by one of the most respected real Republicans in the country.

    Yes. You are right. I am responsible for the lifetime thoughts of every person who has ever written an article for any site to which I link. I agree completely with every one of them, and take moral responsibility for every word they ever uttered, whether or not I ever heard of them.

    I take responsibility for every thought ever held by anyone who has written an opinion piece in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Asia Times, antiwar.com, Mother Jones, the National Review, The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kempf, C-Span, the Bible, the Koran, The Da Vinci Code, blogactive.com and, of course, Mad Magazine.

    If there are any articles presently being written that haven't been submitted yet, I take responsibility for those too.

    It's all my fault. Not only that, I am a racist, a fascist, a communist, a leftist, an anarchist, a Constitution cultist, a libertarian, a Zionist and a Islamofascist.

    Good detective work. You really got my number.

    Dissendent Dave, if you see this, this article may interest you if you haven't seen it.
    Our Dirty War

    "Below the Radar: Secret Flights to Torture and 'Disappearance' " is the title of a recent Amnesty International report on the reprehensible practice of extraordinary rendition, a highly classified American program in which individuals are seized — abducted —without any semblance of due process and sent off to be interrogated by regimes that are known to engage in torture.

    Some of the individuals swept up by rendition simply vanish.


    PS, "anon", your description of PCR as a 'total clown' disgraces you.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous3:01 AM

    Armagednoutahere said...

    "But Bart actually is pretty well spoken, and he doesn't cut and paste. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you just mean he gets his stuff from right-wing sites etc and posts it here. Which he does. And he doesn't usually make any argumenst, he just makes claims. Over and over, as if that makes them well-founded. But he's ususally thought things through and remains adamant. Its true he accepts a different set of facts about the world than most here do, but it can be useful to engage people you disagree with instead of calling them stupid and shouting them down."

    I agree with you about Bart. I also think that it is important to debate him at times because like any good propagandist Bart includes just enough truth in his posts to sucker in the uninformed. If he goes completely uchallenged how many casual observers will believe that no one is challenging him because he must be right? If you notice he posts relentlessly whether challenged or not. I can only believe that he does so to try to convince those that can be pursueded to his side and the support of the failed presidency of George Bush. Apparently he is failing since Bush's poll numbers continue to drop. I would like to think that the challenges he gets on these threads from others as well as myself contribute in some very small measure to that.

    And if it doesn't, nothing is wasted but a little time. So anyone that feels that reading Barts posts or my or other challenges to them is a waste of time should feel free to collapse the thread and skip over our posts

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous5:40 AM

    EWOK, you are a pompous asshole.


    Much better.


    "Although his criticisms of Bush often align him with the political left, Roberts does not see himself as having changed sides. He continues to praise Ronald Reagan and to endorse many of Reagan's policies, arguing that "true conservatives" were the "first victims" of the Bush administration."

    Finally, something positive a redeeming quality of George W. Bush. He has killed the GOP, the political right and the conservative movement, at least for the next two generations, if not forever. Talk about silver linings.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous6:29 AM

    Glenn,

    Wow the San Diego City Beat is your source, what was the National Inquirer not available? You know I have lived in San Diego now for almost 25 years & can say w/o prejudice that if your proof, much less arguments come from a weekly "magazine" that calls itself alternative, you really have sunken too far deep into blind partisanship & should drop all false pretenses at any kind of objectivity. It is a newspaper that doesn't even cover all of San Diego, much less the county & is what drunk people read while waiting for their burritos at the local taco shops. Couldn’t find any quotes from the Fresno Star or how about my Neighborhood Weekly which states that local burglaries are down? Oh yeah, it has a much larger readership than City Beat & the coupons are quite useful as well. Your points would have carried more weight if they had come from the National Inquirer, but I guess the source doesn’t matter much as long as they further your belief & agenda. You have revealed yourself for the hack that you are, again. I’m sure if you had polled any large group of homeless people or any group of 5 year olds prior to the invasion, you could have gotten at least one of them to say that the War would be wrong as well or at least found someone that actually reads City Beat or just looks at the pictures.

    Just a curiosity, I’m sure you’re going to dive right in & be as thorough & critical in your postings of Mary McCarthy like you were w/ the NSA wiretappings or the other leaks. My guess is you are going to assume she is completely innocent, though she has already failed a polygraph, admitted guilt & been fired. Just like the Bush Administration admitted, begrudgingly, about the NSA leaks, I’m sure you’ll be up in arms about how she subverted the Constitutional process of whistle blowing & possibly endangered National Security. It reality, we all know that you’ll defend her to the hilt, regardless of the truth & lay the blame anywhere else. I wonder if you’ll be brave enough to read your “Bush Cultists” posts & apply the same standards to you & your response & defense of her & her leaks… though I doubt it. Maybe you’ll be able to find a previous copy of the Weekly World News proving that UFOs actually released the information, under order of Karl Rove to frame Mrs. McCarthy. We both know that we’ll be able to find it in San Diego City Beat.

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  160. Anonymous6:56 AM

    Has anyone noticed, that at the beginning of Glenn's post, where he writes this:

    Back in September, 2002, Ritter was trying to tell anyone who would listen that Iraq had no WMD's, and accordingly said:

    ...That the "anyone who would listen" was Saddam Hussein's Baath (fascist) parliament, and that the traitor Ritter did this at the same time our soldiers and sailors were fighting Hussein's troops in and around the "no fly zones"?

    The fact that Ritter would appear before this parliament, bash the United States while our troops were fighting against the regime and dying in the process, is a disgrace.

    The fact that Glenn would spend an entire post defending and promoting this scumbag is shameful. Ritter is considered a pariah by all but the most extreme leftist fringe, and is universally ignored by the press (except for the Air America-types).

    The fact that Glenn chooses to use Ritter to launch yet another angry attack on the United States (from his comfortable aerie in Brazil) is quite telling indeed, given that it reveals Glenn's visceral hatred of this nation and all that it stands for.

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  161. Anonymous10:24 AM

    I'm very glad you are hitting this issue hard. In my view, no greater crisis could be imagined than a preemptive war on Iran, and there is no one better to put it all into perspective.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous10:36 AM

    I get the impression that Glenn is making the Bushistas howl in pain. What WATBs they really are. Like some cheese with that whine?

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous10:39 AM

    PMain said...
    Glenn,

    Wow the San Diego City Beat is your source, what was the National Inquirerzzzzzzzzzz


    Wha! Ohh...


    Anonymous said...
    Has anyone noticed, that at the beginning of Glennzzzzzzzzzz

    ReplyDelete
  164. Gris Lobo said...

    bart said...Bush changed his strategy from real politik to neoconservatism after 9/11.

    Sorta like telling everyone your a Democrat and then declaring yourself a Republican after the election right Bart?


    Not at all. The GOP has used both of these rival foreign policy approaches since Reagan.

    Switching from the GOP to the Dems in foreign policy would be a much more fundamental change from willing to use military power to cutting and running.

    Of course that doesn't explain all of the neo-conservatives he surrounded himself with before and after the election. Fact is he lied just like he's lied dozens of other times.

    Lying is making a false statement of fact that you know is false.

    Ritter damn well knows what he said in 1998 and is lying when he claims to have never said it.

    Bush stated during the campaign that he did not believe in nation building and that appears to be the case given that the Administration did not engage in any meaningful nation building for about a year after Iraq was taken. The WH hoped that the Iraqi bureaucracy would stay in place, but that wasn't to be. They had to change course to nation building by necessity.

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  165. Anonymous10:53 AM

    Pompous Ass writes: I never have gone directly to VDare and frankly have no idea what it's viewpoint is on any particular matter.

    You are clueless.

    Bart. What about Bart. Debate him on occasion. Deride and ridicule him constantly until his views and those of his fellow travellers, which include Hypatia and The Pompous Ass, they just disagree about who should lead their little fascist cabal, are relegated back to the fringe where they belong.

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  166. Anonymous11:08 AM

    What was Bart just lying about?

    Oh, Dear!

    This isn’t about the intel anymore

    Tyler Drumheller, “[a] former top official of the Central Intelligence Agency has accused the Bush administration of ignoring intelligence assessments about Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction programs in the months leading up to the Iraq war.” He’ll talk for the first time on 60 Mintues this Sunday at 7PM EST.

    One thing's for damn sure, Bart. The coup has started. Think it will stay bloodless? The reason I ask is, I don't even think you have the support of the military any more.... I hope they hang you all for treason. :)

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  167. Anonymous11:14 AM

    James T said... yadda yadda

    You have a point, but you miss another one, a pretty big one. After Bush has gone, and that may be sooner than we all think, this country still has to go through the the process started by Rove and the GOP. Namely the opening of old wounds almost healed. The battle between the extremists on the right and the liberal/progressive majority in this country goes on until the right wing extremists are expunged from the political discourse by any means necessary this time, I fervently hope. They have it coming and they asked for it.

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  168. I wonder if you’ll be brave enough to read your “Bush Cultists” posts & apply the same standards to you & your response & defense of her & her leaks… though I doubt it.

    Actually the frenzied response of Bush supporters to news of this leak is a perfect example of their cult mentality.

    For them, there’s nothing wrong with leaking classified intelligence per se – the deciding factor of whether or not it is a crime is dependent upon the affect this information has on President Bush. If it makes Bush look bad, then it is a crime. If it makes Bush look good, or supports his policies, then it is a “good leak” and it is not a crime.

    But in a healthy democracy should our laws be based on this criteria? Hardly. It is not a system based upon “rule of law” but the “rule of the leader” in this case Bush, and it is more like the system of laws in Iraq under Saddam than anything we’ve ever had in the U.S.

    What if someone in Saddam’s regime leaked to the press that he was kidnapping those to be his enemies and torturing them? The person that leaked this information would probably be killed, and there would be severe implications for the reporter and the newspaper that published it. Very similar to what some are calling for in the U.S.

    Saddam would make very sure that publishing information that made him look bad would be crime – severely punished, to intimidate any newspaper from ever trying it again. The laws in Iraq revolved around what was good for Saddam, not any standard rule of law based upon right and wrong. Sound familiar?

    In reality, this issue boils down to whether you support our system of secret prisons and our policy of kidnapping torturing and sometimes murdering those who are in it – some of them innocent.

    Some Bush cultists support our secret prisons, torture, murder and such policies, but they are a bit uncomfortable coming right out and saying it, so they make false analogies.

    Take Hugh Hewitt for example. He says, And if an Apple employee leaked key design and development info to a competitor, the competitor would be in the wrong, right?

    Oh, Hugh, let’s be honest here, lets compare apples with apples. If Steve Jobs ordered a kidnapping of Microsoft employees by Mafioso types, and ordered them tortured until they gave up Microsoft’s latest development, and an Apple employee went to the police and “leaked” the information of Job’s actions, would that employee be in the wrong?

    Just a little different isn’t it?

    Bush supporters will obstinately refuse to see this difference, and they will resort to all kinds of dishonest tactics to avoid it. The most common one being accusing the leaker of “treason” and calling for more heads to roll - .literally.

    Now if I don’t support our policy of kidnapping people to be tortured in secret prisons, I’ll undoubtedly be accused of treason. Maybe we’ve reached the point that that is something to be proud of - we’re getting awfully close.

    .

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  169. Anonymous11:37 AM

    I thought it was just me. I'm de-lurking for the first time ever to agree with jamest. Is it too much to have enough self-discipline to NOT consistently hijack thread after thread after thread to have the sort of discussions we had in college? Glenn's not a babysitter. Should he have to police his threads because commenters don't know any better?

    I realize I'm finger wagging, but I've begun to read comments with dread - it's irritating to watch great discussions degenerate into spats between commenters about issues that aren't remotely relevant to the thread. I truly respect the right of everyone here to post, but I think that a little self-discipline really is in order.

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  170. Anonymous12:06 PM

    Someone said:
    You have a point, but you miss another one, a pretty big one. After Bush has gone, and that may be sooner than we all think, this country still has to go through the the process started by Rove and the GOP. Namely the opening of old wounds almost healed. The battle between the extremists on the right and the liberal/progressive majority in this country goes on until the right wing extremists are expunged from the political discourse by any means necessary this time, I fervently hope. They have it coming and they asked for it.

    Well, I don't quite see how this relates to my 'libertarian' bitching (since no-one but libertarians themselves take that shit seriously), but if you mean that we should stay vigilant by addressing the talking-points of Bush-ite trolls, then I agree, absolutely; I just don't think time should be wasted saying, 'such-and-such is going to post this, and that's dumb!' I firmly believe in letting idiots hang themselves, yanno? If you waste precious lines talking about what resident idiots are going to say, it just turns them into little celebrities, and... that ain't right.

    (...Sure, commenting on that isn't much better, but that just adds to my point! Don't let the 'meta' bullshit suck you in like it's sucked me in, fellow lurkers!...)

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous12:13 PM

    From anonymous at 6:56AM:

    "The fact that Glenn chooses to use Ritter to launch yet another angry attack on the United States (from his comfortable aerie in Brazil) is quite telling indeed, given that it reveals Glenn's visceral hatred of this nation and all that it stands for."

    Its actually more revealing that you haven't addressed a single issue raised by this post.

    I now have great empathy for Coach Gazelle of the 3WA when he had to teach volleyball to the Lovey Angels consultant team. His only response was:

    "Pathetic. Pathetic. Pathetic."

    If you can't address the issue (rather than simply attack the either messenger or Glenn as disingenuously as possible) can you please just say so and move on?

    I didn't think so.

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  172. Anonymous12:23 PM

    I found the post quite informative -- I had no idea Glenn lived in Brazil!

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous12:59 PM

    James T writes:
    Well, I don't quite see how this relates to my 'libertarian' bitching (since no-one but libertarians themselves take that shit seriously)


    What over-weaning hypocrisy. Look, I realize that having jumped in to defend my political philosophy and its adherents, that this detracted from the topic of Glenn's post. I'm sorry about that, and did ignore several pot shots the anon lobbed, precisely to avoid that. But then yankeependragon joined in, announcing that we libertarians purportedly only take up employment in universities and think tanks, and experience cognitive dissonance in "the real world." So, having had it, I defended my worldview.

    If you don't like OT discussions about libertarianism, then how about keeping your OT snotty opinions about us to yourself?

    Btw, some months ago, in comments, Glenn said (paraphrasing) that of the reigning political labels, he generally had most in common with those who call themselves libertarians. See, some intelligent people actually do "take that shit seriously."

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  174. Anonymous1:29 PM

    Oh piss off, I'm not the one turning swathes of a discussion on neocon hypocrisy into Rand Land. If I was agitating for more off-topic butting-of-heads, maybe you'd have grounds to criticise, but under the circumstances, I think not.

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  175. Anonymous2:16 PM

    no-one but libertarians themselves take that shit seriously ... If I was agitating for more off-topic butting-of-heads, maybe you'd have grounds to criticise, but under the circumstances, I think not.

    So -- it's okay to make off-topic, unsupported, one-line condemnations of another person's philosophy, as long as you are asking them to STFU as well?

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  176. Anonymous4:05 PM

    So -- it's okay to make off-topic, unsupported, one-line condemnations of another person's philosophy, as long as you are asking them to STFU as well?

    Calling libertarianism or objectivism a "philosophy" is putting lipstick on a chicken, and chickens have no lips. So I guess the answer is yes.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous4:39 PM

    anon claims it is ok at this site to post denunciations of libertarians because:Calling libertarianism or objectivism a "philosophy" is putting lipstick on a chicken, and chickens have no lips. So I guess the answer is yes.

    Anon, I'm curious as to your opinion of an individual who would write this:

    ...I tend to agree with those who describe themselves as libertarians more than anything else. I don't like unwarranted government intrusion of any type, either from the right or the left, and I believe in the Founders’ promise of an extremely limited Federal Government with only those enumerated powers set forth in the Constitution, as well as a highly restrained Executive.

    Is a person who tends to agree with those who describe themselves as libertarians, worthy of derision? Would you waste your time reading the blog of such an individual?

    Because you are doing so.

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  178. Anonymous5:35 PM

    Michael Birk,

    So I guess actually being familiar w/ the newspaper in question, its slanted views & lack of public acceptability shouldn’t come into play when regarding the source. So by your reasoning, if the RNC was to release a talking points memo, or an interview of their own, we can naturally take as un-biased gospel & shouldn’t question who is releasing the information right?

    As far as attacking Ritter, I haven’t bothered. Those arguments played out long ago. I was merely pointing out that the newspaper or source Glenn used is about 2 steps away from being a photo-copied addition & is known for its biases. Since I live where it is published & released, know people that have worked there & have read more than one issue, I think my opinions regarding its tactics & skew are more valid then say an attorney that lives on the other side of the continent & hasn’t read it before. For example, the weekly bulletin put out for my neighborhood alone has a greater & larger audience alone than does City Beat. Then again so do the menus for new restaurants I find on my windshield whenever I park downtown.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous7:00 PM

    ...I tend to agree with those who describe themselves as libertarians more than anything else. I don't like unwarranted government intrusion of any type, either from the right or the left, and I believe in the Founders’ promise of an extremely limited Federal Government with only those enumerated powers set forth in the Constitution, as well as a highly restrained Executive.


    Hypatia asks...

    Is a person who tends to agree with those who describe themselves as libertarians, worthy of derision? Would you waste your time reading the blog of such an individual?



    I'm sure plenty of people who lived in Stalinist Russia felt the same way. I'm sure most Iraqis feel that way. I'm sure every liberal feels the same way. I'm sure every sane person feels that way. Everyone but Bushistas feel that way. Only a fool would think "libertarians" are the only ones who feel that way. That you actually believe that you are the only people who feel that way, well, that makes you a fool. What Glenn says he feels is open to interpretation. As I have already pointed out, no two libertarians agree on much of anything.

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  180. Anonymous7:05 PM

    Hypatia,

    One morning you and your ilk will wake up, (probably not, but we can hope) and realize you've been had. The road to totalitarianism is via the fork on the right, not on the left as you have been led to believe. I'm sure it can be reached by either road, but the short cut is definitely the right fork, as any eyes wide open person could see by the current situation.

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  181. Anonymous7:44 PM

    This is absurd: That you actually believe that you are the only people who feel that way, well, that makes you a fool.

    Obviously Glenn thinks that way, and since I quoted him, I must be aware that at least one other person also does. But in fact, great legions of people do, and at no time did I claim or imply that such views were exclusive to me.

    As for this: The road to totalitarianism is via the fork on the right, not on the left as you have been led to believe

    You need to familiarize yourself with some fairly recent history. But obviously very evil and repressive regimes can also come from the right. I adamantly oppose govt repression no matter which direction it comes from. Rather obviously, I'm highly crticial of the current crop of the GOP, for its many and egregious violations of libertarian -- and American -- principles.

    You are correct about one thing. No two libertarians agree about everything. We tend to be fiercely individual and averse to a sheep mentality. Debates among libertarians can be quite intense.

    In any event, this whole kerfuffle began because you have some obsession with libertarian-baiting, and have repeatedly intruded it into threads. But you are, in fact, ignorant of what constitutes the basic principles that virtually all libertarians adhere to, and have erected a cartoon version to knock down, apparently because this is some mission you have set for yourself, i.e., dissing libertarians at this blog.

    I would suggest that your idée fixe is neither a fruitful nor productive contribution to this site.

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  182. I just noted this piece at Think Progress about Bush's meeting with a Libertarian think tank:

    This tidbit about President Bush’s schedule was buried in today’s Washington Post:

    "Bush traveled Friday night to Stanford University, where he met privately with members of the libertarian Hoover Institution to discuss the war. He concluded the day with a private dinner held by George P. Shultz, a Hoover fellow and former secretary of state."

    Why is this significant? The Hoover Institution is a think tank that has been aggressively promoting the viability of a preemptive military strike in Iran.

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  183. Anonymous10:01 PM

    Cynic Librarian, it is true that Hoover is a libertarian think tank, and it has done a lot of good work on reasonable drug policy. As noted much in this thread, however, libertarians do not agree on a wide variety of issues. The Cato Institute is a more high profile and thoroughly libertarian think tank than is Hoover, and most (not all ) of their fellows opposed the war in Iraq.

    Ted Galen Carpenter, vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at Cato, opposed the war in Iraq, and has written sensibly about Iran:

    American proponents of regime change -- most prominently Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute -- insist that the current government in Tehran is ripe for overthrow. Indeed, advocates of regime change typically argue that an invasion of the country would be unnecessary; rather, American financial and political support for dissident groups, combined with destabilizing special forces operations, should be sufficient.

    There is undoubtedly significant popular discontent with the dour and repressive mullahs, but it is easy to overestimate the extent and clout of the opposition. It is not reassuring that many of the loudest American enthusiasts for a strategy of regime change are the same people who argued that the Iraq mission would be brief and easy and that Ahmed Chalabi was the most popular politician in Iraq. Those predictions proved to be spectacularly wrong, and we therefore should be doubly cautious about following the advice of that faction regarding Iran.

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  184. Anonymous10:41 PM

    During the run up to the Iraq Attack, in the late Summer of '02, a bunch of liars I then referred to as "the bomber party" used to convene on a nightly basis on the Lou Dobbs report. The usual cast of characters inluded James Woolsey, Curly-Larry-and-Moe Paul Bremer, James "look at my American flag tie" Adelman and Cliff May. They all agreed that Iraq must be invaded based on secret new intelligence that the Administration "must" have. They also would smirk and wink about how a nice cakewalk in Iran would have the inevitable side effect of a regime change in Iran. They would talk vaguely about covert operations and the thirst of young Iranians for American culture.

    For the bomber party "re-making the map of the Middle East" was always a multi-step process of regime changes. Cakewalk in Iraq leads to the fall of the Ayatollas in Iran which produces democratic reform in Egypt and Saudi.

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  185. Anonymous11:29 PM

    I would suggest that your idée fixe is neither a fruitful nor productive contribution to this site.

    I could make the same suggestion about you since you don't appear to know a conservative think tank from a libertarian one. But why would you, even libertarians don't know what they think, which is why I rarely self-identify as one. When
    you read astrology blurbs in the daily paper, are you convinced they are talking about you? Same with your "pop culture libertarianism". Hoover is a Republican policy think tank which makes them decidedly conservative if not Neocon, wouldn't you agree? CATO is a libertarian think tank. Glenn's a big boy. I'm sure he can handle having people who don't agree with everything he believes in. And he doesn't actually say he's a libertarian, or at least he hasn't been "baptised". You on the other hand, are a true believer.

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  186. Anonymous11:57 PM

    To laugh at

    For the more serious minded

    Actually there was already a model for mass democracy in 1700. I apologize in advance for nit-picking, but the shift of power from monarchy to parliament in Britain was already well under way. The Bloodless Revolution ended in 1689 and the settlement that resulted was perhaps the single most important milestone in that shift. The ascendancy of Parliament has never been successfully challenged since then.

    To answer David Friedman's question, perhaps advocates of mass democracy in 1700 were utopian. I don't know and I don't care. I see no insult in the word utopian. As Anatole France said, “Without the Utopians of other times, men would still live in caves, miserable and naked. It was the Utopians who traced the lines of the first city.” I admire groups of people who voluntarily experiment with organizing themselves into new forms of society. However, it is irresponsible to advocate for other people to take large risks (like living in anarchy) without taking some simple steps towards living that way for one’s self in one’s family, workplace, or local community. Why can’t libertarians show any examples of successful libertarian social organization at any scale? As I said before, there are no realistic examples that demonstrate the desirability of anarcho-capitalist libertarian society. Perhaps some libertarians could experiment on a smaller scale and demonstrate the advantages of how an internally anarcho-capitalist family or corporation functions to maximize internal markets and freedom.

    Furthermore, it is instructive to note how models of mass democracy came to be. Democracy evolved over centuries and over half the population (such as women) still did not start to get the right to vote until about a century ago (and only a few years ago in Switzerland). When libertarians advocate for peaceful evolutionary change, then I have no problem with it. The problem is that much libertarian rhetoric is revolutionary. Some of it reminds me of early communist rhetoric. They too thought that if we could get rid of government we would all be a lot better off. However, when they finally overthrew a government and got power, the result was Stalinism. There are usually many unintended consequences whenever one engages in the sort of revolutionary social engineering that libertarians espouse.

    Additionally, before mass democracy evolved, there have always been very many examples of small democratic institutions and democratic local governments on which to model. Many tribal groups have formed democratic governments and there were many democratic city states such as some of the northern Italian city-states where the Renaissance began. A big problem with democratic government was that it was inherently small-scale until the invention of the printing press and mass literacy. Democratic governments could not get large without becoming unwieldy whereas neighboring authoritarian governments could grow larger and reap military economies of scale and then take over the small democracies. Technological changes explain why there was no example of mass democracy before the Bloodless Revolution.

    Unlike libertarianism, democracy works at many different scales and there have always been many models to observe. By 1700, there had been a technological revolution in the printing press (and the attendant mass literacy) that enabled mass democracy for the first time in history. Today there is no similar technological change that will suddenly make libertarian anarchy possible when it has not been possible in the past.

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  187. Anonymous12:20 AM

    I could make the same suggestion about you since you don't appear to know a conservative think tank from a libertarian one.

    Then neither do Think Progress and Cynic Librarian. CL linked to the TP discussion of Bush meeting with fellows at the "libertarian" Hoover.

    But I certainly agree that Cato is more purely and truly libertarian than Hoover -- altho Hoover does great stuff w/ drug policy.

    Why you care, however, is beyond me. Did a libertarian bite you in the ass in childhood or something? You are positively obsessed with them/us. (shrug)

    ReplyDelete
  188. Anonymous2:54 AM

    Bart said:

    Not at all. The GOP has used both of these rival foreign policy approaches since Reagan.

    Sure it is Bart, it's portraying yourself one way while asking the people to vote for you and then changing your tune once you are elected. An obvious deception in Bush's case with all of the neo-cons around him before and after the campaign.

    Lying is making a false statement of fact that you know is false.

    No kidding? Wow.

    Like when Bush said: Iraq's instability "is the legacy of Saddam - a tyrant who exacerbated ethnic divisions to keep himself in power."

    Or when he: "Mr. Bush, who has long criticized leaks of secret information as a threat to national security" himself approved Libby leaking just such information to the press in order to rebut a critic.

    That was after he told the public that if there were leaks in his admin he wanted to know about them, and that whoever had leaked would no longer be a part of his administration.

    The National Security Agency advised President Bush in early 2001 that it had been eavesdropping on Americans during the course of its work monitoring suspected terrorists and foreigners believed to have ties to terrorist groups, according to a declassified document.

    And yet in the 2004 campaign Bush told the people that a wiretap required a judges approval, that nothing had changed.


    "Bush stated during the campaign that he did not believe in nation building and that appears to be the case given that the Administration did not engage in any meaningful nation building for about a year after Iraq was taken."

    BS.

    "Iraq Was Awash in Cash. We Played Football With Bricks of $100 Bills"
    By Callum Macrae and Ali Fadhil
    The Guardian UK

    Monday 20 March 2006

    At the beginning of the Iraq war, the UN entrusted $23bn of Iraqi money to the US-led coalition to redevelop the country.


    "The WH hoped that the Iraqi bureaucracy would stay in place, but that wasn't to be."

    BS again:

    By Laurent Zecchini
    Le Monde

    Friday 24 March 2006

    Why did the American Army lose the stabilization phase of the Iraq war? After the [initial] force phase had achieved its objectives, the US Army did not change its methods vis-à-vis the population, continuing to rely on force and failing to seek the population's acceptance.

    In fact the U.S. ran all the baathist administraters and military leaders out. A move that has already been admitted as being a mistake.

    "Switching from the GOP to the Dems in foreign policy would be a much more fundamental change from willing to use military power to cutting and running."

    And yet more BS, it's gettin deep you may want to raise your arm so you can save your wristwatch Bart. Better yet stop spewing the cr*p out and it won't get so deep.

    In fact there would be no cutting and running if someone other than Bush had been elected because there would be no need to. Anyone else would have had enough sense not to start the war in Iraq in the first place.

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  189. Anonymous7:30 AM

    Paul rosenberg wrote: Ya gotta love it when you're arguing against people so stupid that they illustrate the very points you're making while thinking they're refuting them.

    Exactly, and as you probably have noticed Paul, that exact thing has happened too frequently to remember on this site.

    It's like a one, two punch. Glenn makes a point about a position of some group, and then his detractors on this site employ the very same tactics that the group Glenn has just written about uses.

    I guess they do perform a service. You know how politicians always try to bring it to the personal level: I received a letter from a mother in Des Moines, Illinois whose 21 year old son died bravely fighting Al Queda in Iraq....

    Here, Glenn's detractors provide the "personal touch" to drive home the accuracy of his points.

    Moving along, I have an observation about something which I have been noticing for a while but about which I have now reached a definite conclusion.

    If you go through many of the long threads of the last few weeks, it's impossible not to see which type of political philosphy really incites Bushco's followers to riot. It's not the Democrats. It's the small "l" libertarians whether they be on the left or the right or in the middle.

    I am not talking about the Libertarian Party, as most of us realize that "Libertarians" argue so much among themselves that there really isn't any one Libertarian Party or definition of "libertarian", and those who identify themselves as actual members of that party are too few in number to constitute much of a threat to either the Republicans or the Democrats.

    The Constitution is really a very liberatarian document, and anyone who says it isn't is either brain dead or lying.

    I also think a careful reading of these threads would never lead anyone to believe that the "james t" type person is what he says he is: someone on the left who hates Bushco.

    He is really a Bushco apologist whose gimmick is to discredit those who Bushco apparently now most fears.

    And with very good reason.

    It's the "libertarian" in the members of the left and the right who are are the harshest critics of Bushco which unites those two groups. It's certainy not Hillary Clinton. If she were to become President the singer might have changed, but the song would remain the same.

    The viciousness of a "james t" (including all his posts as "anons") is something I only see in those truly corrupt individuals who have infiltrated the "right" and betrayed every traditional Republican principle.

    James T (in all his guises mostly as "anons") is Bushco itself. Anyone who looks closely should be able to see that.

    James T. ("anon") is as evil as they come.

    So I am not surprised this site has often turned into a "bash libertarians in all their many guises" slug fest.

    People with some libertarianism in their hearts are people who hate authoritarianism and people with a love of individual liberty. And justice.

    Bushco at its essence is pure, raw, authoritarianism and a depraved tolerance for injustice.

    To survive, Bushco has to marginalize all libertarian flavored, Constitution worshipping, patriotic defenders of individual freedoms and the Constitution.

    The only thing which is going to bring this corrupt house down is the joining of hands of the factions on the left and the right to whom this type of dictatorial authoritarianism is most abhorrent.

    Fortunately, that's exactly what is happening.

    After the "Fall", we can go back to our own camps in terms of economic policy and various other issues, but hopefully we will be able to do that in a free Constitutional Republic again.

    So keep it up all you fascist "poseurs." The more you attack hypatia and me and Glenn and Paul Craig Roberts and Ayn Rand and any other person who despises fascism, the more evidence it is that Bushco has finally identified the real threat.

    By "we" I also mean aramednoutahere, nuf, cynic librarian, michael birk, gris lobo, arne, zack, constant, thersites2, disenchanted dave and all the rest of many terrific, principled, patriotic, decent, moral "libertarians" ( to me you are all "libertarian" where it really counts) on this site.

    As for libertarian sites?

    By my definition, this and antiwar.com are the two most "libertarian" sites on the Internet.

    Antiwar.com doesn't have comments, so that's probably why Bushco has sent out so many of its minions to try to push forth its obnoxious, destructive message here.

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  190. Anonymous10:18 AM

    Hypatia said... Why you care, however, is beyond me. Did a libertarian bite you in the ass in childhood or something? You are positively obsessed with them/us. (shrug)

    Hardly. I am as "libertarian" as the next guy or gal, probably more so. It all depends on what "libertarianism" means to you. It's kind of like the debate about what a "patriotic American" is, and you know how pointless that can be. Just look at this blog. Look, there are many flavors of libertarianism, they originate from some highly idealized anarchistic utopianism. It was a communist anarchist who first coined the term, after all. True libertarianism (whatever that is) as it is evolving has nothing to do with the founders, CATO, Hoover, AEI, Friedman, etc. I simply looked to see where this new political and economic philosophy found some real life application. Where it has been put into practice and has succeeded, on a small scale. There are several communities in Britain and one right here in the United States, in Arden, Delaware. These are Georgist communities and have put their theories into practice and they have been successful for years. None of the institutions I mentioned above would approve of these communities, but they have nothing to show but theories, or as one might say, hot air.

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  191. Anonymous10:32 AM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    So keep it up all you fascist "poseurs." The more you attack hypatia and me and Glenn and Paul Craig Roberts and Ayn Rand and any other person who despises fascism, the more evidence it is that Bushco has finally identified the real threat.



    You are such an asskissing putz it's not worth my time to respond. You are also wrong in most of your assumptions in that rant and probably overly paranoid. Everything ever done in the long process of human progress is libertarian in nature, right? Here's a libertarian for you:

    Whosoever shall be guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy with a man or woman, shall be punished; if a man, by castration, a woman, by boring through the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least ?

    Thomas Jefferson, in the Virginia Bill number 64, 18 June 1779


    Now here is a real libertarian, and if he were here today, and i truly wish he was, I'd vote for him, he would think you are a pompous self-important putz, too.

    Without deviation from the norm, 'progress' is not possible.

    Frank Zappa

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  192. Anonymous10:46 AM

    Looka here! I found Eyes Wide Open's libertarian website.

    Now y'all can do whatchya like, but don't act so surprised when laugh at you...

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  193. Anonymous11:27 AM

    Eyes Wide Open,

    Dude, you are batshit crazy. But you are funny as hell. Is this guy a capital "L" libertarian or a lower case "l" libertarian.

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  194. Anonymous11:33 AM

    Will the real Eyes Wide Open

    Please stand up

    Please stand up

    Eyes Wide Open

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  195. Anonymous1:29 PM

    The Constitution is a decidedly liberal document. When a "conservative" or Republican asks you, "What do liberals stand for?" You can proudly point to that document. With respect to this "libertarian" thing you mention, it sounds promising. I suggest that I was the first libertarian, (although some have called me a libertine), but I was light years ahead of all those other fuddy duddies.

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  196. Anonymous8:47 AM

    mary rosh said...
    Eyes Wide Open,

    Dude, you are batshit crazy. But you are funny as hell. Is this guy a capital "L" libertarian or a lower case "l" libertarian.


    I wouldn't actually spend too much time if I were you worrying about whether he is a big L or a little l.

    As he is associated with the American Enterprise Society, I think the letter you want to reach for when deciding whether or not to capitalize is an f, not an l.

    F as in Fascist. Or, if you prefer, fascist.

    Hope that helps you with your punctuation dilemma.

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  197. Anonymous9:09 AM

    Frank Zappa,

    Let me see if I understand your point. You are suggesting that Thomas Jefferson was in favor of castrating all male homosexuals, you see that as a libertarian position, and you think Thomas Jefferson wouldn't like me.

    That does worry me, I have to admit. I do want all people who think male homosexuals should be castrated to like me. I really, really do.

    As for social security numbers, although I never knew there were societies who opposed them, now that I find out there are I certainly condemn that moonbat type of thinking.

    Like any rational person, I, of course, heartily agree that the government should number all babies so Big Brother can be able to track them from the moment they are born until they take their last breath. And beyond.

    Either that, or to save paper, you could actually tatoo the numbers on their little arms.

    Same thing and equally effective, so, of course, I approve of both practices.

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  198. Anonymous5:02 PM

    Great post. It was listening closely to Ritter (as well as reading his hsort book) in the fall of 2002 that convinced me that the Bush administration could not possibly be correct about Iraq. I spent a long time second-guessing myself and him about this during much of 2003, but it is something of a relief to find that my instincts were right in this case. Ritter deserves a medal.

    Slightly off-topic: reading posts by most of you libertarians is like waiting for monkeys to type Shakespeare. You just don't make any sense at all.

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  199. Anonymous10:25 PM

    Now is the time for a war mobilization by all of us whose contribution to the war effort is made with a keyboard instead of a rifle. Many of us having been saying for years that Iran is the ultimate enemy in the War on Terrorism—and now war with Iran is openly being considered and debated. This is the moment we have been waiting for. This is the time for us to make the case for war with Iran.Use whatever medium is open to you: blog entries, letters to the editor, phone calls, e-mails, and letters to your congressman and to the White House, one-on-one debates with friends and coworkers. Make the case that war with Iran is not just “thinkable”—it is mandatory. We need to attack Iran, not just to keep it from developing nuclear weapons, but to topple the largest remaining state sponsor of terrorism, and to discredit Islamic rule.

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