One virtually never sees any disagreement among Bush supporters with regard to Iraq or terrorism policies, but Powerline has a very brave and surprising post -- to which all three of its luminaries contributed -- which expresses disagreement with yesterday's essay from world-renowned and esteemed military historian Dr. Victor Davis Hanson, who smeared the motives of the retired American Generals who are criticizing the administration's war effort, by claiming that the Generals are only saying these things to sell books and enrich themselves. Powerline is having none of it.
According to Powerline, Dr. Hanson is wildly off-base. From them we learn that "those griping ex-Generals" are not motivated by a desire to sell books. Rather, they are voicing these criticisms because they are "mostly, in effect, Clinton appointees," because they are simply "'old school' generals who object to Rumsfeld's pet theories" of military transformation, and because these are the rejects who got forced out of their jobs because they "didn't fit with the new program." Hanson was right, of course, that these Generals were operating from base and venal motives; he just got the specific smear wrong.
What is so notable (but unsurprising) here is the reaction of Bush followers to the extremely unusual and extraordinary event of seeing retired Generals criticize not just specific strategic decisions, but the overall mismanagement of the war, and in some cases, the wisdom of the war itself. As I pointed out yesterday, the fact that a bunch of generals hold a certain view does not, by itself, mean that the view is correct, including on military matters. But contrary to the deceitful attempt of Bush followers to pretend that this is some sort of commonplace event ("Generals are always griping about something"), it is remarkable, and significant on at least some level, for this many Generals to make these types of overarching and very public criticisms while a war is still ongoing.
In response, Bush followers have publicly speculated about every defamatory motive which could be fueling these Generals -- they have embraced every possible explanation except for the possibility that these Generals might actually hold these views sincerely. This behavior really illustrates, more than anything else, exactly how we were led into a war that has been a disaster on every front, and how we have stubbornly remained on the same course well past the time it became objectively apparent that this course was leading to nothing but abject failure.
The first objective -- which worked very well for a good couple of years -- was to prevent all dissenting views by labeling those who questioned the war or who opposed it as subversives, traitors, Friends of the Terrorists, America-haters, and crazed radicals. That took care of dissenting views for awhile, ensuring an echo chamber where the President's views on the war were basically unchallenged. But the profound error of their judgments and the rank falseness of their claims could not be obscured forever, because the reality of the war slowly exposed the truth. But amazingly, facts do not deter them either.
Every fact that contradicts their initial premises is discarded as fiction or the by-product of malice. Every opinion that undermines their position can be explained only by venal and corrupt motives. Every event that transpires which deviates from what they predicted ends up being the fault of others. And any individual who questions their grand plan for epic and glorious triumph in a never-ending, all-consuming War of Civilizations is someone who is either weak-willed, weak-minded, or just plain subversive -- whether that be life-long public servants like Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson (both of whom were smeared by Powerline in a separate post yesterday, which quoted RealClearPolitics calling them "Political hacks" and "fools" who "espouse positions publicly that they know to be untrue"); life-long conservatives like William Buckley or George Will, and even American military generals, including those who actually led ground troops in Iraq as recently as 2004.
The number of people left who are sufficiently noble and brave to wage this Great and Glorious Battle is dwindling every day. There is no fact which can't be dismissed away, no source whose motives are beyond reproach, no event which can't be blamed on others. I wrote a post on C&L a couple months ago about this dynamic, when - in that one week alone -- there were multiple independent polls, events, and facts that all contradicted their world view, and each was just casually waved away as biased, fictitious lies. The war in Iraq was the Good and Right thing to do, and nothing will or can ever change that fact -- not the non-existence of the WMDs that primarily justified it, nor the emergence of a civil war, nor the installation of an Iran-controlled Shiite theocracy, nor the opinion of military generals. Their beliefs are in place forever and are to be defended against any fact.
Every possibility is in play except for an acknowledgment that they might have been wrong about something. It is a resolute fantasy world that they cling to for dear life, because everything that matters to them resides in that world. And the most significant aspect of all is that the person most afflicted with this fact-immune syndrome is the person who resides in the White House and controls our Government, and will for the next 2 1/2 years. There are few situations more destructive and dangerous than for a volatile situation to be controlled by people for whom faith in one's own rightness is infinitely more persuasive, and more sacred, than facts and reality.
Bart the psyops talkingpoint robot says:
ReplyDeleteFitz!
Fresh from Powerline, eh Glenn?
ReplyDeleteInto the shower for a radiation scrub immediately!
The Cult of Bush turns, at last, on the military who is not zealous enough in their support of the Leader.
ReplyDeleteMakes you wonder how Rommel would have fared in today's Army.....
Before I comment on Powerline, I note the following:
ReplyDeleteThis is from Noam Chomsky's Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy [New York, NY: Metropolitan Books, 2006], p. 6), and I found this excerpt on DissentVoice.com:
It is left to the leftist denizens of the radical nuthouse to point out that U.S. foreign policy has long used (state-) terrorist methods to slaughter masses of innocent people in places like Vietnam (where American forces killed more than two million people between 1962 and 1975) and Iraq, where more than a million died from US-imposed economic sanctions during the 1990s. The current US-led invasion of Iraq has killed more than 100,000 civilians.
Do the savage U.S. torture camps and brutal state-terrorist “interrogation” techniques maintained and conducted in Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram Air Force base, among other locations help the U.S. qualify as a fitting candidate for punitive attack by “the civilized world?”
How about the role that John Negroponte, current U.S. Director of National Intelligence, played as U.S. ambassador to Honduras in the 1980s? Negroponte ran interference for the Honduran security forces in the U.S. Congress, making sure that U.S. military assistance kept flowing to Honduras while those forces conducted a brutal campaign of torture and massacre against that nation's civilian populace. Negroponte’s main job in Honduras, however, was to oversee the terrorist contra camps in Honduras, from which a C.I.A.-equipped mercenary force launched repeated murderous attacks that killed masses of Nicaraguan civilians (see Chomsky, Failed States, p. 151)
Naturally, I am in a state of shock because I didn't know any of this and do not know anything about Noam Chomsky.
If this is all true, it would seem that as bad as things are now, they have been very horrible for a long, long time.
Who was responsible for what happened in Vietnam? The neo-cons were not around then, were they? If not, what group was responsible for this policy? Whoever was responsible, the military went along with it, right?
What is going on with human nature? How could a person who was in a position of leadership in Vietnam then get named as Secretary of State, as Colin Powell did?
The fact that our country is set up so that anyone in the military who speaks out against a war while it is going on can be called a traitor and can be tried for treason is not a good thing.
That would make perfect sense if all wars were defensive wars, but it appears few are, so there is a grave danger that the people closest to battle in a war are prevented from voicing concerns if they discover we should not be in that war, or cannot win it, or the military is being encouraged to engage in atrocities.
How can we trust any of our military apres World War 11 if they went along with all these military adventures which, looking back, so shock the conscience? What should trump the other, a military General's conscience or his loyalty to his leaders?
I personally am suspicious about all these retired Generals and do not assume anything about their motives.
What if all those who are speaking out against Iraq now, for instance, would favor a nuclear attack on Iran?
So I posit: is Powerline coming out in defense of these war critic Generals because "everyone" has agreed to "throw in the towel" on promoting the Iraq plan for invasion and regime change and now "everyone" wants to get behind an even more horrifying misadventure in Iran? If that is the case, it would be to Powerline et al's advantage to, anticipating that the American people are becoming disgruntled with the present military leaders and see them as blindly supportive of Bushco's policies, set up some retired military guys as "trustworthy" so that when they come out in favor of a military strike against Iran, the public will have already come to trust them and will thus be induced to believe them about the wisdom of such an attack?
Who knows? I don't know. Do you all?
As I posted yesterday, this is a quote from General Batiste:
ReplyDeleteQ: Why are we here?
BATISTE: To end radical Islamic fundamentalism.
Q: But wasn't Saddam Hussein's regime hostile to radical Islamists?
BATISTE: We could argue about that all night.
This was from an interview. Reading the whole interview, I came away with the feeling Batiste's nickname could be Dr. Strangelove.
So I ask myself, why would Powerline paint all these Generals as old school, sort of restrained people who are out of touch with the new concepts of "regime change", etc.?
Gen. Batiste, at least, is not someone I would ever call "restrained" and I bet you could not slip a piece of paper between him and Rumsfeld. That's my guess. I could be wrong.
I smell something funny. Of course, maybe Rumsfeld does not take Powerline into his confidence.
eyes wide open - World War 11 !?! You're scarin' me dude(ette?)!!!
ReplyDeleteWho needs "facts" when they can feel the truthiness of their beliefs?
ReplyDeleteThese people will never admit they're wrong.
ReplyDeleteHow could one mentally cope with the idea that they dedicated so much time and energy to a piss-poor cause? It would devestate the mind.
It reminds me of when my girlfriend saw this horribly deformed person parading around talking about how sexy she was, and my girlfriend said, "How can someone be that dillusional?" and I said, "its a survival mechanism. If she wasn't, she might just herself."
Beating these people down with facts to prove how wrong they are will only cause this survival mechanism to ratchet up a notch.
Either you ignore them and concentrate on normal rational citizens who can actually form independent opinions and change said opinions when the facts change, or you can brow-beat the loyalists until their excuses become so outlandish they finally start alienating the masses, but I fear the public's threshold for that point of lunacy might be far higher than anyone could have predicted.
Anyway, enough, go home, see your family and everyone have a happy Magic Bunny day this Sunday.
Well, I tuned into Rush this noon to see what words of wisdom might be flowing from himself, and he was all in a lather about the “wild generals.” He recommended that we all go to American Thinker’s site to get the lowdown on what is really motivating these men.
ReplyDeleteOne motive is, of course, Anti-Semitism:
And the influence of his Central Region buddies is evident in [Gen. Zinni’s] parroting of the “we did this all for Israel” criticism. His anti-Israel stance is also reflected in his subtle anti-Semitic complaints against people in the administration who did the heavy lifting to deal with the very real threats he spoke about over six years ago.
The other is that these guys are just “carping” in the face of what is really a huge success in Iraq:
The carping critics erect a rhetorical, if not imaginary, entity so they can bash it with charges of “not enough troops” and other hindsight insight. The perfect war plan devised by omniscient planners has never existed. And as Donald Rumsfeld has acknowledged on several occasions, no plan, however perfect, survives first contact with the enemy. But since tactical flexibility was inherent in the plan, commanders on the ground adapted to changing circumstances. And now, a little over three years later, we see the tremendous success that Coalition and Iraqi forces have achieved.
A tremendous success? In what alternative universe are these Bush supporters residing?
These people will never admit they're wrong.
ReplyDeleteThey don't have to as long as they are making money hands-over-fists and destroying the fiscal integrity of the federal government. They have essentially guaranteed that we eventually see Social Security desroyed and the the federal government will have to abandon all kinds of other commitments.
Not only are they becoming wealthy beyond avarice, but they are dictating fiscal policy for generations to come.
"Greg the boyfriend", you have made some good points -- but please try to understand that until we talk about the economic issues, we are just blowing smoke out our ass and the repugs win.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteEvery possibility is in play except for an acknowledgment that they might have been wrong about something. It is a resolute fantasy world that they cling to for dear life, because everything that matters to them resides in that world. And the most significant aspect of all is that the person most afflicted with this fact-immune syndrome is the person who resides in the White House and controls our Government, and will for the next 2 1/2 years.
You nailed it right on the head. Far be it from me to refrain form psychobabble "tele-diagnosis" when such has been proven to be a valid technique by such as Charles Krauthammer, Paul Frick, Bill Frist, and last but not least, the very Powerline and VDH cohorts you mention here, so here goes:
Dubya is a very insecure individual (and for good reason; he's a freakin' moron despite his "gentleman's Cs"), and must always compensate for his feelings of inadequacy. This manifest itself in various ways (his exercise mania is illustrative; he has to be "good" at something, and the incident where he insisted that Lance Armstrong not show him up is quite remarkable for this). And one of the most destructive is the inability to admit errors or failings. It's my experience that the more competent you are, the more you're able to admit you flubbed it (in part for the perfectly good reason that you make errors less often, and you have more successes to balance against them). For the incompetent, the moments of failure are damning. Thus, Dubya can't think of a single specific thing he's done wrong, and Brownie is "doing a heck of a job...." Even when Brownie is gone, no word of remorse or responsibility shall issue. It's a bit of a vicious circle, though, the inability to admit failure leads to an arrogance, and a bullying which in turn brings more failures which just spiral in.... When things get too bad, there's a "loss of interest" (not a "defeat"), and he just walks away and puts that experience out of his memory. Which leads to ... *Ta-da!* ... nothign learned and even more failures down the line.
I think similar dynamics apply to greater or lesser extent to those that hitched their wagon to his. At some point it becomes psychically impossible to admit the enormity of the error ... the consequences are just so horrible that people can't bring themselves to fess up to the error.
But it's a vicious circle, my friends: Confession is good for the soul, and the easier the less bodies you have to atone for....
Cheers,
I suppose it's inevitable that right-wing comments focus on the motives of the opposition. Consider: You invest in an idea, and it starts going bad. You could pull back, but this would mean not just admitting a mistake but calling some deeply-held (even messianic) principles into question. So, what do you do? You say that the opposition is weak. It's contemptible. It's venal. It's short-sighted.
ReplyDeleteI'm reminded of arguments I've had with creationists. If you ask, "Just what would it take to convince you?" they may have some answer, but they don't really take the issue seriously because they know the truth already. Winning the war in Iraq is the right thing to do, and history will bear this idea out. Even if it were to take 100 years, and if no Iraqis were to survive. It would be the right thing.
I do get a kick out of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders of the 82nd Chairborne Division over at Powerline (no, I won't link it) second-guessing these "second-guessing" generals....
ReplyDeleteI don't think they would recognise satire if it gob-smaked them in the face.
Cheers,
At the risk of overstating the obvious, are we seeing faith-based politics in action? So many of these folks claim to be evangelical xtian fundamentalists yet pick only the parts of their bible that support their views. Religious faith run amuck? The last time we had something like this go on it culminated in the great depression, when reality popped everyone's bubble, no matter how rich or powerful they were. Trouble is this time the psycopaths have nuclear weapons. Yikes!
ReplyDeleteEyes Wide Open,
ReplyDeleteI would suggest you learn about Chomsky by reading his work instead of how his work is characterized by other people. I read a couple of his books a few years ago, then did a little research to see how he people respond to what he says.
Most people simply call him anti-American. The more sophisticated charges are that he is an apologist for the khmer rouge or a nazi sympathizer.
The first charge is ridiculous and mostly stems from a two book study he co authored with Ed Herman on the Political economy of human rights. One of the books focuses on the press’s behavior toward the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and Indonesia in East Timor. They qualify their statements in multiple places to clarify that they feel the Khmer Rouge are murderous thugs. Their point is that the press mostly ignored East Timor, offered apologetics, or accepted without question what the Indonesian government told them. In the case of Cambodia, the press fabricated and distorted the scale of the already horrendous atrocity. They document much of this in the two books, to give a comparative example of how the press acts in service of the state. Hushing up the crimes of an ally and accepting without question or critical analysis the crimes of an official enemy.
Another point is that our power to actually do something about both of these was quite different, in East Timor we could have stopped supplying the weapons and training the Indonesian military was putting use. In Cambodia, there was very little we could do.
The argument that he is apologizing for the KR is so ridiculous, it has to be an intentional distortion given their clear and outspoken contempt for what the KR was doing.
The nazi sympathizer stems from his signature on a petition supporting the right of a French professor (Faurisson) to publish works denying the holocaust. The French government was bringing him up on charges; Chomsky maintained that the freedom of speech was broad enough that even when people say things that are disgusting and awful, they should have the right to say them. Secondly, the government should not determine what historical truth even if they are accurate. In all of his work, Chomsky (a jew) uses the Nazis as a comparison for ultimate evil, further discrediting this charge. Chomsky also clarified that Faurisson’s views are completely insane and opposed to his own views.
Anyway, I would advise you don’t just listen to what people say about NC, but read some of the controversial material yourself. Read his sources and footnotes as well. Chomsky has made enemies on the right and left because he calls many of them on the carpet.
eyes wide open - World War 11 !?! You're scarin' me dude(ette?)!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by that? I think it's pretty clear we had to enter WW11, don't you? What did you want? For Hitler to take over the world? I know Germany didn't invade this country, but Hitler might have won that war if we hadn't entered it, right? Even if he would have eventually lost without our participation, untold numbers of additional people would have been killed, right? So what valid case can be made for not fighting Germany in WW11? It was hardly just another "regional conflict."
From everything I have read our military was heroic in WW11. Are you saying this was not true?
How do we take back the narrative?
ReplyDeleteThe right wing echo chamber is the most effective propaganda machine ever unleashed.
They claim to be constitutionalists but destroy its very meaning with their policies and intimidation.
I don't think having a louder propaganda machine will overcome thiers. I think theirs will have to be discredited and marginlized somehow. Otherwise, Glenn will be having this same discussion for the foreseeable/long future.
I'm a Canadian who is in favour of the war in Iraq. I concede the argument that dismissing the messenger is less useful than examining the message. No contest.
ReplyDeleteThe generals make two arguments here: 1) that Iraq should not have been invaded, and 2) that the military planning was a disaster.
If sombody asked me "Just what would it take to convince you?"...
For point 1 I would need to believe:
- Iraq would not substantially support terrorism
- Iraq was not circumventing the UN Oil for Food program
- There were no "dual-use" facilities that could have been converted to WMD production in a short time
- No WMD was smuggled out of the country prior to the war
For point 2 I would need to believe:
- The historically-low casualties of the operation outweigh the war's benefits
- That more troops would have results in less casualties and not just more targets
- That alternative plans would have substantially different results, despite allowing the enemy an 18-month preparation period prior to the invasion.
I should add that I honestly do wish to hear other opinions. I find this to be one of the most informative and well-reasoned anti-Iraq war blogs I have encountered. I don't beliwve there is much to be gained by asserting supporters of the war do so simply because they cannot handle the idea of being wrong.
Ryan, the burden of proof for most your points is yours.
ReplyDeleteYou should be able to show that Iraq would substantially support terrorism.
You have to find the dual use facilities
And you have to find evidence that WMD were smuggled out of the country.
What if the police arrested you tomorrow, and told you that you had to prove you weren’t selling illicit drugs and guns. That such things had not been trafficked through your house at one time. And that you could not turn your bathroom into a meth lab.
Justin has it exactly right. One of the reasons that the war met with such strong opposition is that the burden of proof was not met: to take one of Ryan's examples, we can't actually judge whether the casualty rate, as low as it is, outweighs the benefits of the war because the costs and risks were never made clear. They still haven't been. Sure, 3000 American soldiers' lives are worth preventing a certain nuclear blast in Los Angeles (I'd offer to be one of them). But how about a 5% chance of such an event? A 0.05% chance? A wild-ass guess made by certain draft-avoiding advisors of a man who doesn't read books?
ReplyDelete"What should trump the other, a military General's conscience or his loyalty to his leaders?"
ReplyDeleteA general's loyalty is to the Constution.
Odd how these people STILL believe in Bush-Nero's quagmire and yet refuse to enlist. Cowards on more level than one.
The most dangerous time in America's history is between now and Election Day 2006. Bush and the ReThugs have their backs against the wall. The cornered Beast will attack Iran.
Ryan--You raise some good points, most of which have been answered with an equally plausible alternative. In question 1, however, I don't necessarily see how the Oil for Food program fits in--but maybe you're saying it could have been used for developing more weapons.
ReplyDeleteMy view is that Hussein was sufficiently "contained," as International Relations people and intelligence folks would put it. There's plenty of evidence to back this up.
His support for terrorism doesn't apply because he was contained by international sanctions and US military presence in the area.
Saddam was a two-bit tyrant with pan-Arab aspirations which had never panned out in the Islamic world. He was an atheist, secular Baathist who'd put warrants out on Zarqawi and whom bin-Laden despised and called some bad names.
As Scott Ritter has said over and over again, the WMDs had been destroyed and any second-use facilities would have taken years to convert. It's doubtful that he'dHussein could have been able to do so without someone noticing.
Point 2, in my mind, is your least favorable position. You seem to restrict the notion of casualties to dead people. As many will tell you, casualties also include the tens of thousands soldiers who've suffered traumatic wounds and debilitating injuries.
Yet, strangely perhaps, you leave out of the equation the large number of civilian lives lost and devastated by US military operations. Why leave these out?
In the long run, it is perhaps these cvilian casualties that first gave the insurgency life and continues to fuel it. In a tribal society, it is often a matter of honor for family members to exact revenge for the death or outrage done to another family member. In Arabic society, this last requirement is attached to the outrage done to women as well. Even touching a another man's wife, sister, or relative is considered to be a source of shame that only revenge will blot out.
Your other points seem too obviously wrong. The pre-war planning done by Rumsfeld did not anticipate having to run the country. Gen. Shinseki and others like Zinni had taken this into consideration but they were either reassigned or asked to retire.
Your last point deals with a hypothetical. Given the present debacle, it's just as likely that sending in 500,000 troops would have indeed been the prudent thing to do.
But all of this assumes that going to war was necessary. I disagree with that point--Hussein was contained, historically predisposed to working with the US, and through economic and political incentives and pressure conducive to moderating his tyrannical rule.
Truthiness is the quality by which a person purports to know something emotionally or instinctively, without regard to evidence or to what the person might conclude from intellectual examination.
ReplyDeleteActually I would say this is not always a bad thing. Did you read "Blink"?
I would think that the problem would be confined to those instances when a person thinks one thing based on gut instinct despite evidence to the contrary, or to those cases where intellectual examination is feasible but the person fails to do so.
In short, sometimes opinions are based on "instinct" because facts are not available.
Anyway, Ayn Rand says emotions are value judgments, and thus are not in conflict with reason in a psychologically healthy person with proper moral values.
PS. Hypatia, I thought your post yesterday at 1:35 on the Sinking Lower thread was one of your best.
Ayn Rand never commented on Joseph McCarthy to my knowledge or testified in front of him. But if anyone is seriously interested in reading up on how insidiously the communist doctrine was being embedded in Hollywood at that time, the best thing to read would be Ayn Rand's testimony in front of the House of Un-American Activities about communist infiltration in Hollywood.
She testified proudly and in fact asked that she be called to testify. As someone who had fled communist Russia and gone to Hollywood to work as a scriptwriter, she had a great deal of first-hand knowledge that most others did not have.
The nice thing about reading her testimony is that you know each and every word she uttered was spoken for no purpose other than to tell the truth.
BTW, who exactly were the "innocent people" whose lives were "destroyed" by Joseph McCarthy? What are their names?
I do know of one brilliant person whose career was torpedoed and that was Elia Kazan. He was savaged by the "left" because he agreed to testify, unlike some others.
Those "lefties", apparently, were mostly Trotskyites who became the neocons of today. How touching.
From everything I have read our military was heroic in WW11. Are you saying this was not true?
ReplyDeleteDude....he was talking about the way you typed WW2. The way you wrote it, it reads WW eleven. WWII works for the roman numeral variant.
Go back and read the post with this newfound knowledge. I think you will detect the presence of humor.
S
Who does "Central Region buddies" refer to?
ReplyDeleteUm, maybe someone should tell the brain-trusts at Powerwhine that Rumsfeld has failed?
ReplyDeleteThen again, for the right soldiers are just shit on their shoe, so it's no wonder they don't get it.
.
Your column, A Resolute Fantasy World, reminds me of something I once read. "The beginning of insanity is an inability to sustain self doubt."
ReplyDeleteNot only are they becoming wealthy beyond avarice....
ReplyDeleteThat's a big point. Maybe we are the idiots who are examining their continual illogical stances and trying to psychoanalzye what makes these seemingly insane people tick.
Maybe they are all just greedy bastards who put $$$$ ahead of morality. It could be that simple.
See V for Vendetta. Remember the Rush Limbaugh media person in that movie? He wasn't an evil ideologue. He was just interested in money and position. Maybe if you want to make a lot of money in a corrupt society, you decide you have to go along with the corruption to do so.
Could it all really be as simple as that?
You know, if the commies stole my daddy's fur farm, I might want to take a big steaming dump on all these people, too. I mean, the Communist Party was illegal, wasn't it? It wasn't? Oh well, screw these people anyway.
ReplyDeleteAllen Adler, screenwriter
Larry Adler, actor and musician
Edgar Barrier, actor
Orson Bean, actor
Barbara Bel Geddes, actress
Harry Belafonte, actor and vocalist
Herschel Bernardi, actor
Walter Bernstein, screenwriter
John Berry, actor, screenwriter and director
Marc Blitzstein, composer
Allen Boretz, songwriter
Phoebe Brand, actress
Bertolt Brecht, screenwriter
Lloyd Bridges, actor
J. Edward Bromberg, actor
Sidney Buchman, screenwriter
Hugo Butler, screenwriter
Morris Carnovsky, actor
Jerome Chodorov, writer
Aaron Copland, composer
Jeff Corey, actor
John Cromwell director
Jules Dassin, director
Roger De Koven, actor
Paul Draper, actor and dancer
Hanns Eisler, composer
Cy Endfield, screenwriter and director
John Henry Faulk, radio personality
Jerry Fielding, composer
Carl Foreman, producer and screenwriter
John Garfield, actor
Betty Garrett, actress
Will Geer, actor
Jack Gilford, actor
Bernard Gordon, screenwriter
Lloyd Gough, actor
Lee Grant, actress
Dashiell Hammett, writer
E. Y. "Yip" Harburg, composer
Sterling Hayden, actor
Lillian Hellman, playwright
Marsha Hunt, actress
Sidney Kingsley, playwright
Sam Jaffe, actor
Paul Jarrico, producer and screenwriter
Gordon Kahn, screenwriter
Pert Kelton, actress
Victor Kilian, actor
Howard Koch, screenwriter and actor
Alexander Knox, actor
Arthur Laurents, writer
Marc Lawrence, actor
John Howard Lawson, writer
Canada Lee, actor
Robert Lees, screenwriter
Louise Lewis, actress
Philip Loeb, actor
Joseph Losey, director
Arnold Manoff, screenwriter
Robert A. McGowan, screenwriter and director
Arthur Miller, playwright
Karen Morley, actress
Zero Mostel, actor
Jean Muir, actress
Clifford Odets, writer
Dorothy Parker, writer
Larry Parks, actor
Leo Penn, actor
Abraham Polonsky, screenwriter and director
John Randolph, actor
Maurice Rapf, screenwriter
Anne Revere, actress
Rosaura Revueltas, actress
Frederic I. Rinaldo, screenwriter
Martin Ritt, actor and director
Paul Robeson, actor and singer
Brian Eubanks,lawyer
Edward G. Robinson, actor
Edwin Rolfe, poet
Robert Rossen, screenwriter
Jean Rouverol, actress and writer
Waldo Salt, screenwriter
Pete Seeger, folk singer
Irwin Shaw, writer
Joshua Shelley, actor
Howard Da Silva, actor
Gale Sondergaard, actress
Lionel Stander, actor
Frank Tarloff, screenwriter
Dorothy Tree, actress
Louis Untermeyer, poet
Orson Welles, actor, writer and director
Michael Wilson, screenwriter
Richard N. Wright, writer
Nedrick Young, actor and screenwriter
.
Some of the thought processes that allowed so many people to be persuaded that invading Iraq was a reasonable choice may be rooted in the public perception developed in the 15 years prior that war could be reduced to a video game--only the bad guys would be hurt.
ReplyDeleteConsider how the Serbia/Kosovo intervention and the first Gulf War proceeded. I believe those two antecedents functioned as a psychological set-up, deluding people into a sense of ease about conflict. Fertile soil for this massive mis-judgement to develop.
His support for terrorism doesn't apply because he was contained by international sanctions and US military presence in the area.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention he supported the same terrorists that the US currently supports: the MEK. That's why they're not "terrorists," see?
Just ask Sen. Brownback.
.
Saddam's support for terrorism included paying death benefits to the families of suicide bombers in the West Bank. But that is meaningful only if we start to conflate Israel's security with our own. The truthiness of that conflation furthers the confusion in the minds of many.
ReplyDeleteWhat an odd posting from eyes wide open. Because he feels that McCarthy didn't ruin careers, he must not have. Grand Moff Texan bothers to do a Google search, and voila, finds a list of people whose careers were harmed by the blacklist. Or am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteJustin, thank you for taking the time to write that about Noam Chomsky. I had already put him at the top of my list of people to read when I have time. When I asked what people here think of him, it's because there are certain regular posters here whose opinions and morality I have come to respect, and their opinion about a person would be helpful before I get a chance to actually read up and decide for myself.
ReplyDeleteMr. Chomsky sounds very interesting. I can sort of understand how people would use his focus on the KR as a reason to attack him, even if what he wrote about was hardly an endorsement of them and was focused on the press, because what is known about them is so terrible that it's hard to get beyond that.
For instance, if someone wrote a scholarly piece about John Yoo that focused on how he had somehow been misrepresented in the press, I wouldn't actually care. In my mind, he has given up his "citizenship" in the human race and is an illegal member of the human race
Of course I am not advocating actually doing anything to him, but I do not concede he has legitimate claim to the same "rights" as legal members of the human race have.
For instance, I would quit any University where a course by him was a requirement, and I deplore any students who elect to take a class with him and call him "Professor Yoo" and treat him with respect as if he were a legitimate human being and not the inhumane monster that he really is.
Would anyone take a course with Hitler and call him "Professor Hitler"?
My girlfriend tortured me by turning rush on this morning so I would be angry enough to get out of bed. I turned it off fairly quickly, but what I did hear was that these generals were all clinton appointees (which apparently from his tone was enough to mean they were horrible people) and that the fact that they were all coming out at once and the media was reporting on it seemed to be proof of liberal media bias and some huge democratic plot from the overwhelming democratic machine. It was amazing to me to hear him come off as part of a persecuted minority rather than part of the propaganda arm of the party that currently dominates the government. So my two thoughts were:
ReplyDelete1). Clinton? Really? Still all his fault huh?
2). Is it just me or are the conservatives the ones who scream and shout at democrats and liberals for not "supporting the troops" yet are the first to turn on "the troops" as soon as they appear to have thoughts that deviate from the republican line? How does that compute?
Cynic: Well spoken. You reinforce the point I was trying to make. There was no substance to using "support for terrorists" as a justification for this war.
ReplyDeleteBut, I can understand why Rove would use it. The great Evangelical Unwashed felt the truthiness in it!
Heh. I don't see what's wrong with calling Yoo "Professor War Criminal," or "Herr Professor Kriegsverbrecher".
ReplyDeleteI'm a career military type who was for the war (trusted the boss) until I was against it (figured out the boss lied). Anytime I bring this up on any right wing blogs I am:
ReplyDelete1) Accused of being a traitor and a disgrace to the uniform I once wore.
2) Accused of being a liar because any real veteran wouldn't question the war effort because ALL real vets support the president 110%.
3) Both.
Good thing I didn't quite make general or they would be insulting me and my family by name and for shameful generations to come.
I have changed political, religious, and personal beliefs many times over my life (flip-flopper, too, I guess) but these folks are not worth arguing with. As the excellent post and interesting following comments have said, these folks will not be reasoned with
Jeff
BTW, who exactly were the "innocent people" whose lives were "destroyed" by Joseph McCarthy? What are their names?
ReplyDeleteAnd it should be noted that Grand Moff Texan just provided the names of Hollywood types. There were many others who worked in other occupations. People who just went to one or two meetings which Communists also attended, and were therefore tarred with the same brush. Just for one example, communists were among the earliest white supporters of the civil rights movement in the forties and fifties.
Not that "eyes wide open" probably gives a shit about innocent victims, anyway.
Worst. President. Ever.
reich: The truthiness of the statement, I imagine, for many Americans is that they're dark, medieval, non-JudeoXtian, and speak another language.
ReplyDeleteGus writes: Grand Moff Texan bothers to do a Google search, and voila, finds a list of people whose careers were harmed by the blacklist. Or am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteOh please. Harmed how? By being held up properly to some ostracism and shunning for adhering to a repulsive worldview and embracing a murderous tyrant who killed more Communists (and possibly more Jews) than Adolph Hitler did?
Let's look at just one of these poor Stalinist martyrs.
"Paul Robeson, actor and singer ." Yeah, and liar complicit in murder for his hero, Joseph Stalin. This is how David Horowitz discusses Robeson in one of his books, referring to a post-WWII pilgrimage Robeson made to the USSR when he sought to visit the Jewish poet, Itzak Feffer.(Btw, if you hate or doubt Horowitz, this disgusting tale is verified by American historians as well.) By this time Stalin had turned his murderous eyes on Jews qua Jews:
[Robeson] was told by Soviet officials that he would have to wait. Eventually he was informed that the poet was vacationing in the Crimea and would see him as soon as he returned. The reality was the Feffer had already been in prison for three years, and his Soviet captors did not want to bring him to Robeson immediately because he had become emaciated from lack of food. While Robeson waited in Moscow, Stalin's police brought Feffer out of prison, and began fattening him up for the interview. When he looked sufficiently healthy, he was brought to Moscow. The two men met in a room that was under secret surveillance. Feffer knew he could not speak freely. When Robeson asked him how he was, he drew his finger nervously across his throat and motioned with his eyes and lips to his American comrade. "They're going to kill us, " he said. "When you return to America, you must speak out and save us."
After his meeting with the poet, Robeson returned home. When he was asked about Feffer and the other Jews, he assured his questioners that reports of their imprisonment were malicious slanders spread by individuals who only wanted to exacerbate Cold War tensions. Shortly afterward, Feffer, along with so many others, vanished into Stalin's gulag.
It was not that Robeson had not understood Feffer's message. He had understood it all too well. Because it was Robeson, near the end of his own life and guilty with remorse, who told the story long after Itzhak Feffer was dead.
I've got plenty more stories where that came from showing the sheer depravity of these Stalinists your heart bleeds for. Many of them were vile, having subjected their minds, hearts and talents to the service of a totalitarian monster, and eager to betray their country if asked. By definition, being a member of the CPUSA meant pledging unwavering fealty to the Soviet Union and to Stalin. Period. These people were not Americans in any relevant sense.
And they suffered? Robeson is on one our US Postal Service stamps. He made tons of money performing for most of his life.
Pox on them all. And I've got plenty more revolting stories about some on that list Grand Moff Texan gives, as well as others not on it. Putrid apologists for Stalin, almost all of them.
They're dark, medieval, non-JudeoXtian, and speak another language. It gets down to the tribal id real quick. Us versus Them. Or is it Oceania?
ReplyDeleteI mean, the Communist Party was illegal, wasn't it? It wasn't? Oh well, screw these people anyway.
ReplyDeleteThere were over 300 actors, writers and directors who denied work in the film industry because of the informal Hollywood Blacklist. Have they all been proven guilty of being communists? Were there no “innocents” among them? Were they all proven traitors working for our enemy?
Does it matter?
Now what if we took Ayn Rand’s thoughts on Communists and applied it to those who oppose Bush?
She said, "The principle of free speech requires ... that we do not pass laws forbidding [Communists] to speak. But the principle of free speech ... does not imply that we owe them jobs and support to advocate our own destruction at our own expense."
Similarly, couldn’t someone argue that there would be nothing wrong with firing someone for their political activities opposing Bush – we don’t owe them a job. What if all the major employers took this position?
Ayn Rand was supportive of employers efforts to reduce the influence of communists in the movies and television, so what would be wrong for our employers today to fire workers who don’t support Bush?
If you believe that those who oppose Bush are enemies of this country, who hate America and support the terrorists, wouldn’t you want to reduce their influence?
Couldn’t you cite Ayn Rand to support their firing and denial of employment?
Who are the prominent people in the media today who don’t support our commander in chief Bush? We don’t owe them a job, says Ayn Rand. Let’s fire them.
Bush supporters believe that his opponents are destroying America. Should we allow them to have jobs, allow them to make movies, allow them to broadcast on radio, allow them, in Ayn Rand’s words to “advocate our own destruction at our own expense?”
That damn Paul Craig Roberts is advocating our own destruction, we don’t owe him a job, we don’t owe him access to newspapers or television, or websites or to publishing companies.
True, we can’t allow him not to speak, but we make sure that hardly anyone hears him.
Are you now, or have you ever been a Bush opponent?
Larry Johnson on Rumsfeld:
ReplyDeleteThis is not a simple case of the military trying to usurp or embarrass civilian leaders. The growing chorus of senior military officers recognize that if they do not speak out now that the debacle in Iraq could erode the publics' confidence that military leaders, especially those in the Army and the Marines, and leave the military with a tarnished legacy like the aftermath of Vietnam.
Don Rumsfeld may want to stick it out, but stick a fork in him. His goose is cooked and his reign will soon be over.
Zack writes: Ayn Rand was supportive of employers efforts to reduce the influence of communists in the movies and television, so what would be wrong for our employers today to fire workers who don’t support Bush?
ReplyDeleteFalse analogy. The Communist Party USA was not just some political organization, or akin to, you know, the Rotary Club. By definition, its members were loyal to the Soviet Union and Joseph Stalin, and conformed their every behavior to strict party discipline, which in turn meant working loyally in the service of the best interests of Joseph Stalin.If that is not unAmerican and anti-American, then nothing is.
Writers and novelists wrote under the strict dictates of the Party. Their talents and minds were totally submitted to Joseph Stalin, and by definition, against the United States.
They were revolting.
That last anon to Zack about the Communists was me. Don't know why blogger screwed up my moniker.
ReplyDeleteWithout having read Dr. Hanson's essay it seems he is not listening to what the generals are saying. Instead he seems to be focused on discrediting the messengers rather than attacking their message. That has been the pattern of this administration since the get-go.
ReplyDeletePoliticizing the Iraq war has become counter-productive for American soldiers and the Iraqis. By ignoring the problems the military faces and the people's needs exacerbates the situation.
I would argue that the generals actually care about the military and whether the military can effectively make the grade in Iraq so to speak. The 6 retired generals calling for rummy's resignation have all stated the obvious, Rumsfeld is inept and incompetent. He is bereft of ideas to effectively manage the war.
Two of the generals calling for Rumsfeld's dismissal served in Iraq: Army Major General Batiste as commander of key forces in Iraq, and Marine Corps General Zinni as head of US Central Command.
Instead of discrediting the generals let's ask, do the generals have legitimate complaints. Most will agree they do as the situation in Iraq demonstrates. Theretofore are the complaints serious enough that require Rumsfeld to resign.
According to one general, Rumsfeld deliberately distorted intelligence, ignored his generals advice, and said his arrogant micro-management crippled the military's effectiveness. As a consequence Iraq is a mess.
Under the present circumstances calling for new leadership, one that respects the military, is not so unusual.
If Rumsfeld had listened to his generals and taken their advice perhaps Iraq may not be the utter bed of violence it is today. Henceforth, new leadership would be the ticket and Rumsfeld needs to retire.
Jeff: I agree, there's no place for calling someone who has served, a traitor.
ReplyDeleteHowever, personally I hope I come across as someone who can be reasoned with. Cynic and reich make some good points, but they lose me when they dismiss contrary opinion on the basis of assumed racism or religious zeal.
For example, I believe Saddam was _not_ contained, based on articles that came out over the past couple of years, such as Claudia Rossett's analysis of the Oil For Food program in the Wall Street Journal. I can only base my opinion on what I read and hear; I think that should be accepted as rational, even if one disagrees with the argument. Again, I don't see how it can be useful to assert that people with whom you disagree automatically can't be reasoned with.
I definitely agree you Americans turn far too much of a blind eye to the Saudis. You should get more of your oil from Canada instead; we've got plenty.
Another thing they don't take account for: The motivations of an accuser do not automatically invalidate the accusation. Just because I'm trying to sell my book that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteWell ..it's the *circular reasoning* argument again...*George The GOOD* can't possibly be evil/wrong/incompetent (not at least like Clinton the BAD) and so any attempts to tarnish George the GOOD simply can't be tolerated - despite the Facts that demonstrate GW is actually evil/wrong/incompetent.
ReplyDeleteAnd IF they were forced to admit any fact that tended to show George the GOOD wasn't so GOOD - then wouldn't they be forced to admit that since they supported impeaching Clinton on much more minor and ancillary issues - not on his general Incompetence at governance - that they’d then be forced to support an Impeachment/Censure of ole Georgie his much more serious infractions? If it was OK for Clinton – and a good thing for our democracy…so much more is it important for Darlin George. But this Just can’t be…their entire reputations are at stake and machine they have nurtured for so long.
And for pure political operatives, it impugns them much more deeply by their support -So, there can be no daylight between their fantasy of George the Good and Reality of George the Incompetent which would EVER allow for this to become obvious. So they must defend him at all costs...and so it goes. Circularly, round and round is that reasoning.
Which would be only mildly annoying as that swing of a political pendulum back from the far right and taking the 20 years or so to dig out from the devastation – IF we do have 20 years.
There seem to be so many indications of some serious convergence of problems - Implosions in the 10 year range. The Global warming Tipping-point, the 10 years of the Financial crisis looming in the SS and Medicare expenses, 10 years for Iran to develop its Nuke armaments…but that is 10 years and counting - from Today!
Whether its Tipping points or Perfect Financial Storms…we haven’t the 2 ½ years to waste dealing with deepening messes this BAdmin can keep making- Or Congress' refusal to address for the nation.
While these folks supporting him are doing so save their political face - its about time for the rest of us to save the the nation and the world from ole George. That is the sad part here…it’s time to begin now…or nevah.
Aaron: I'm trying to follow your argument. Bush "knew that they could not sustain the war drum-beat until July" because the inspectors were "finding zilch".
ReplyDeleteAnd "the administration knew at the time of invasion that Iraq was no where near to developing nukes."
So Bush _knew_ there was no WMD, and decided to prove it by rushing in and not finding any?
ryan: I agree that you raise reasonable questions. On the issue of containment, perhaps this interview with Melvin Goodman in 2003 will provide some background and data for you.
ReplyDeleteGoodman is professor of international security at the National War College, senior fellow at the Center for International Policy, and a former CIA analyst.
ryan: Bush not knew there were no WMDs, he also had the Defense department draw up a plan to plant them in Iraq!
ReplyDeleteYou might also find this article interesting:
The memo also shows that the president and the prime minister acknowledged that no unconventional weapons had been found inside Iraq. Faced with the possibility of not finding any before the planned invasion, Bush talked about several ways to provoke a confrontation, including a proposal to paint a U.S. surveillance plane in the colors of the United Nations in hopes of drawing fire, or assassinating Saddam.
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I do not peremptorily dismiss contrary opinions if there are meaningful, factual arguments to support them. If you believe that Saddam's support of regional terrorists was a compelling or important reason to invade, I need to see the facts that support that position.
Absent that, I can only assume that it's emotionally-based.
So Bush _knew_ there was no WMD, and decided to prove it by rushing in and not finding any?
ReplyDeleteOnce he had his war he didn't need to "prove" anything. Not any more then they had before. For instance, the trailerparks of mass destruction. They were proof, even though they weren't.
Same crap as before the war, spread by the same filth.
.
Putrid apologists for Stalin, almost all of them.
ReplyDeleteFor which speech their government attacked them, right? That's not America, and that was the point.
Thank you for proving irony is not dead.
.
Writers and novelists wrote under the strict dictates of the Party. Their talents and minds were totally submitted to Joseph Stalin, and by definition, against the United States.
ReplyDeleteThis kind of ignorance is what I would expect from someone emerging from a communist country into the bright light of free speech.
The monolithic nature of communism was a myth much beloved by both the communist leadership and those who needed said myth to undermind American values.
Both forces are in the ashbin of history.
.
"undermind"
ReplyDeleteI like my new word. I've discovered a whole new hive of people it applies to.
.
Well, here is a different perspective on the coming out party:
ReplyDeleteDesert Rats Leave The Sinking Ship
Why Rumsfeld Should Not Resign
The Guardian - Comment
Friday, April 14, 2006
By Greg Palast
Well, here they come: the wannabe Rommels, the gaggle of generals, safely retired, to lay siege to Donald Rumsfeld. This week, six of them have called for the Secretary of Defense's resignation.
Well, according to my watch, they're about four years too late -- and they still don't get it.
I know that most of my readers will be tickled pink that the bemedalled boys in crew cuts are finally ready to kick Rummy in the rump, in public. But to me, it just shows me that these boys still can't shoot straight.
It wasn't Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who stood up in front of the UN and identified two mobile latrines as biological weapons labs, was it, General Powell?
It wasn't Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who told us our next warning from Saddam could be a mushroom cloud, was it Condoleezza?
It wasn't Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who declared that Al Qaeda and Saddam were going steady, was it, Mr. Cheney?
Yes, Rumsfeld is a swaggering bag of mendacious arrogance, a duplicitous chicken-hawk, yellow-bellied bully-boy and Tinker-Toy Napoleon -- but he didn't appoint himself Secretary of Defense.
Let me tell you a story about the Secretary of Defense you didn't read in the New York Times, related to me by General Jay Garner, the man our president placed in Baghdad as the US' first post-invasion viceroy.
Garner arrived in Kuwait City in March 2003 working under the mistaken notion that when George Bush called for democracy in Iraq, the President meant the Iraqis could choose their own government. Misunderstanding the President's true mission, General Garner called for Iraqis to hold elections within 90 days and for the U.S. to quickly pull troops out of the cities to a desert base. "It's their country," the General told me of the Iraqis. "And," he added, most ominously, "their oil."
Let's not forget: it's all about the oil. I showed Garner a 101-page plan for Iraq's economy drafted secretly by neo-cons at the State Department, Treasury and the Pentagon, calling for "privatization" (i.e. the sale) of "all state assets ... especially in the oil and oil-supporting industries." The General knew of the plans and he intended to shove it where the Iraqi sun don't shine. Garner planned what he called a "Big Tent" meeting of Iraqi tribal leaders to plan elections. By helping Iraqis establish their own multi-ethnic government -- and this was back when Sunnis, Shias and Kurds were on talking terms -- knew he could get the nation on its feet peacefully before a welcomed "liberation" turned into a hated "occupation."
But, Garner knew, a freely chosen coalition government would mean the death-knell for the neo-con oil-and-assets privatization grab.
On April 21, 2003, three years ago this month, the very night General Garner arrived in Baghdad, he got a call from Washington. It was Rumsfeld on the line. He told Garner, in so many words, "Don't unpack, Jack, you're fired."
Rummy replaced Garner, a man with years of on-the-ground experience in Iraq, with green-boots Paul Bremer, the Managing Director of Kissinger Associates. Bremer cancelled the Big Tent meeting of Iraqis and postponed elections for a year; then he issued 100 orders, like some tin-pot pasha, selling off Iraq's economy to U.S. and foreign operators, just as Rumsfeld's neo-con clique had desired.
Reading this, it sounds like I should applaud the six generals' call for Rumfeld's ouster. Forget it.
For a bunch of military hotshots, they sure can't shoot straight. They're wasting all their bullets on the decoy. They've gunned down the puppet instead of the puppeteers.
There's no way that Rumsfeld could have yanked General Garner from Baghdad without the word from The Bunker. Nothing moves or breathes or spits in the Bush Administration without Darth Cheney's growl of approval. And ultimately, it's the Commander-in-Chief who's chiefly in command.
Even the generals' complaint -- that Rumsfeld didn't give them enough troops -- was ultimately a decision of the cowboy from Crawford. (And by the way, the problem was not that we lacked troops -- the problem was that we lacked moral authority to occupy this nation. A million troops would not be enough -- the insurgents would just have more targets.)
President Bush is one lucky fella. I can imagine him today on the intercom with Cheney: "Well, pardner, looks like the game's up." And Cheney replies, "Hey, just hang the Rumsfeld dummy out the window until he's taken all their ammo."
When Bush and Cheney read about the call for Rumsfeld's resignation today, I can just hear George saying to Dick, "Mission Accomplished."
Generals, let me give you a bit of advice about choosing a target: It's the President, stupid.
Hyperpatia screeds: "This is how David Horowitz discusses Robeson in one of his books"
ReplyDeletePlease wipe your feet if you are going to track David Horrorshits in here.
Writers and novelists wrote under the strict dictates of the Party. Their talents and minds were totally submitted to Joseph Stalin, and by definition, against the United States.
ReplyDeleteThey were revolting.
Oh, please, Hypatia, that is hyperbole. I’m not going to defend the Communist Party, but not all people that attended their meetings were Stalinists or loyal to Stalin, nor did they a present a threat to this country. Some did, and I don’t deny that, but I disagree with your broad brush that you use. Some of the people that were attracted to them did so for reasons other than loyalty to another government.
Also, I think analogy is apt today, because the same broad brush is used against those who oppose Bush. Since ANSWER was the sponsor of anti-war rallies, this means those who oppose the war in Iraq are, yes, communists. See how everyone is smeared for the actions of a few.
Now I have no tolerance for ANSWER and I’m disgusted that they play a role in these events at all, but nevertheless, anyone who comes out against the war is going to be associated with them. That’s the way it is.
Are you against the war in Iraq, well then, you are Marching with Stalinists
So, even though I think ANSWER is crazy, and I think many of the signs and slogans at those anti-war demonstrations are either immature, silly or despicable, I will, as a Bush opponent always be associated with them.
Not everyone who came out against this war is a Stalinist (you can count them on your fingers), but that’s the sort of rhetoric that David Horowitz (one of the worst offenders) uses to condemn and smear those who oppose Bush.
That’s why it’s relevant.
Grand Moff Texas writes: For which speech their government attacked them, right? That's not America, and that was the point.
ReplyDeleteThank you for proving irony is not dead.
And: The monolithic nature of communism was a myth much beloved by both the communist leadership and those who needed said myth to undermind American values.
The Communist Party USA was monolithic. One submitted to strict Party discipline in the service of Joseph Stalin, or one did not remain in the CPUSA.
Their govt did not attack CPUSA members for their "free speech." They were Stalinist subversives, dedicated to overthrowing the United States and undermining it on Stalin's behalf any way they could. I know of only one exception in which a CPUSA member who was asked, did not agree to commit espionage -- Robert Oppenheimer, who simply displayed indifference to the other Communist scientists whom he knew were doing it. HUAC feared that Stalinists were controlling the output of films under direct guidance from Stalin; in fact they were trying to do that, but met with only limited success. I don't think it is manifestly unAmerican to worry that a foreign genocidal tyrant is directing the work product of the entertainment industry.
And what I totally don't think is that whatever HUAC's excesses, it is appropriate to hold these people up as secular saints, martyred to free speech. They were vile agents of an evil foreign power.
Cathy Young reviews the book Red Star Over Hollywood (my emphasis:
...[the Radoshes] book, based on much previously unavailable material from interviews and archives, serves as a welcome antidote to the glamorization of the Hollywood Left.
The American Communist Party, the Radoshes remind us, was not merely a progressive organization that stood for workers' rights and social justice. It was an arm of Stalinist Soviet Russia, an organization that replicated Soviet-style totalitarian control in its own ranks as best it could without the power to incarcerate and shoot people. Party members often faced severe pressure to toe the party line in their work and could be chastised for ''reactionary habits of thought" such as ''individualism." ... screenwriter Michael Sloane, whose 2001 movie ''The Majestic" dealt with the blacklist, waxed poetic about artists who were simply ''having opinions and expressing ideas" (in support of a state that allowed none). In 2003, writing about the death of film director Elia Kazan, who reluctantly agreed -- primarily out of conviction -- to testify before Congress about communism in Hollywood, once-blacklisted screenwriter Bernard Gordon fulminated that Kazan ''helped to support an oppressive regime." As a heroic contrast, Gordon held up playwright Lillian Hellman -- a lifelong champion of a regime that murdered millions.
And Young concludes: It is often said that McCarthyism provides a cautionary tale for our own era, when dissent once again risks being branded as unpatriotic. That is a real danger. But the Radoshes' book gives us the other side of that cautionary tale: Some people who cloak themselves in the banner of ''dissent" stand for things that are truly reprehensible.
Exactly. Many if not most of those blacklisted Hollywood artists and writers advocated a thing that was truly reprehensible. I really don't see much wisdom in likening contemporary dissenters from Bush memes to those foul creatures.
I found Hyperpatia's and Eye's Totally Crossed's History Professor!
ReplyDeleteTHE NEW DEAL BUILT
THE NEW WORLD ORDER
FDR A COMMIE OF THE FIRST ORDER
Zack writes: I’m not going to defend the Communist Party, but not all people that attended their meetings were Stalinists or loyal to Stalin, nor did they a present a threat to this country.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who was a member of the Communist Party USA was a Stalinist, by definition. There was no dissent tolerated within the CPUSA,and the party conformed everything it published and everything it did to the orders it received from Moscow.
If one objected to Moscow's views or control, once simply did not remain within the CPUSA; one was purged, a few even were killed (altho this was more common in European Communist parties), or one quit.
The totalitarian nature of the CPUSA is now beyond reasonable dispute, with both Russian and American historians having had ample opportunity to peruse the former archives of the Soviet Union, and then examining the CPUSA records held in archives there. These include line-item directions for how to spend the tens of millions of dollars Stalin sent to the CPUSA. Of course, this Stalinist nature of the CPUSA had been known long before the archives were opened, from former members such as Richard Wright, who contributed to the anthology The God that Failed, a book detailing the rigid existence of life in the CPUSA.
The CPUSA was a wholly owned and subsidized organ of Joseph Stalin.
Someone recently asked me why it is that Bush seems hellbent on a course of perpetual war. Why does he want it?
ReplyDeleteIt occured to me, in answering the question, that the premise of the question is wrong.
Bush and his neocon buddies don't want perpetual war. They just think that perpetual war is the natural state of man. And any who resist this idea is either naive or in league with the enemy.
Friday, April 14, 2006
ReplyDeleteOne virtually never sees any disagreement among Bush supporters with regard to Iraq or terrorism policies...
:::chuckle:::
Bush supporters have been debating the best way to win the Iraq War since before the war began, including how many US troops and whether to keep the original Iraqi Army intact or to rebuild it.
...but Powerline has a very brave and surprising post -- to which all three of its luminaries contributed -- which expresses disagreement with yesterday's essay from world-renowned and esteemed military historian Dr. Victor Davis Hanson...
Did you read the same Powerline post to which you linked?
There was not a word of criticism of the Hanson op-ed. Instead, they merely linked to the article as yet another opinion on the subject. Indeed, Powerline agreed with Hanson's critique of the "insufficient troops" critique advanced by the dissenting Army and Marine generals.
According to Powerline, Dr. Hanson is wildly off-base. From them we learn that "those griping ex-Generals" are not motivated by a desire to sell books. Rather, they are voicing these criticisms because they are "mostly, in effect, Clinton appointees," because they are simply "'old school' generals who object to Rumsfeld's pet theories" of military transformation, and because these are the rejects who got forced out of their jobs because they "didn't fit with the new program." Hanson was right, of course, that these Generals were operating from base and venal motives; he just got the specific smear wrong.
Folks, Powerline was merely commenting on and linked to a much more lengthy and well informed post by Dafydd at biglizards.net. You would be well advised to read the entire linked Big Lizards post. It is an expansion on the post I made yesterday concerning the competing views of whether technology can replace boots on the ground.
In response, Bush followers have publicly speculated about every defamatory motive which could be fueling these Generals -- they have embraced every possible explanation except for the possibility that these Generals might actually hold these views sincerely.
Hanson made this allegation based on the fact that the Generals were busy hawking books at the time. Powerline and Big Lizards never questioned whether the generals held these views, rather they challenged the views.
This behavior really illustrates, more than anything else, exactly how we were led into a war that has been a disaster on every front, and how we have stubbornly remained on the same course well past the time it became objectively apparent that this course was leading to nothing but abject failure.
Nonsense. What "abject failures?"
...whether that be life-long public servants like Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson (both of whom were smeared by Powerline in a separate post yesterday, which quoted RealClearPolitics calling them "Political hacks" and "fools" who "espouse positions publicly that they know to be untrue")
I believe the term we use concerning Wilson is liar.
Clarke is a prima donna bureaucrat who dumped on both the Clinton and Bush Administrations for being stupid for not listening to Clarke's self proclaimed brilliance.
Of course, this has nothing to do with CYA for his department's failing to act against al Qaeda for years prior to 9/11. After all, they are only "dedicated public servants" (sic).
Folks, DC is a company town. The company is government. They are all political hacks. There is no such thing as a non-political employee in DC.
(Aaron, I wrote this before I saw you comment requesting supporet on the Moscow funding of the CPUSA claim; as it happens, this addresses that.)
ReplyDeleteAny who doubt that the Communist Party USA and its members were robotic slaves of Joseph Stalin, are unfamiliar with the avalanche of evidence that has been available on that score in the last 10-12 years. Here is a very entertaining, yet serious, review in Reason of one book written by two of the historians who have been writing about all the new data; a book review called
Fools for Communism: Still apologists after all these years (my emphasis):
The [left-of-center revisionsts'] dominion over the domestic side of Cold War history has been even more total. That’s been written as melodrama, with the U.S. Communist Party, or CPUSA -- a collection of amiable folk singers, brave anti-segregationists, and Steinbeckian labor organizers -- trying to rescue the maiden of American democracy from the railroad tracks where McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, and the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) had tied her down. The revisionists reluctantly gave some ground on the nature of the Soviet Union as Mikhail Gorbachev’s glasnost allowed some ugly facts to bubble to the surface, but they were adamant on the U.S. side: The Communist Party was just a lefty variant of the Republicans and Democrats, and people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were innocent martyrs, the victims of a demented witch hunt.
That myth was reduced to rubble by a series of crushing blows in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. First, in 1992, the post-Soviet government of Boris Yeltsin threw open the Communist Party’s records, including the enormous collection of documents held by the Communist International, or Comintern, which directed the affairs of foreign Communist parties during the first half of the century. Two years later, the Russian SVR, the cash-strapped successor to the KGB, allowed brief and limited access to some of its old files to a handful of Western historians in return for a substantial gratuity. And finally, in 1995, the U.S. government released thousands of KGB cables intercepted and decoded in the 1940s in a top-secret operation known as Venona. In all, some 2 million pages of new documents became available, a historical payload of unfathomable proportions and inestimable impact.
The new picture of American Communists that emerged looked nothing like the one painted by the revisionists. The CPUSA was founded in Moscow, funded from Moscow (as late as 1988 Gus Hall was signing receipts for $3 million a year), and directed by Moscow; the Comintern reviewed everything from the party’s printing bills to its public explanations of the nuances of the Hitler-Stalin pact, and the slightest misstep could bring scorching rebukes.
Worse yet, it really was a nest of spies: Hundreds of CPUSA members had infiltrated the American government and were passing information to the KGB. They honeycombed the State Department and the Office of Strategic Services. Virtually all of the revisionists’ martyrs really were spilling secrets to the Kremlin, including Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs, and a pair of Roosevelt aides, Harry Dexter White and Laurence Duggan, who died (White of a heart attack, Duggan of a jump or fall from a window) after being questioned by HUAC. The CPUSA would do literally anything for Moscow, even kill: Party members were intimately involved in assassination plots against the heretic Bolshevik Leon Trotsky, and later they would assist in unsuccessful KGB plots to break his murderer out of jail. More than 350 spies, nearly all CPUSA members, are identified in the Venona cable traffic alone. One KGB cable gave Earl Browder, the party chief from 1930 to 1945, credit for personal recruitment of 18 spies. Another wondered how the KGB would ever operate in the United States without the help of the CPUSA.
These are not the "martyrs" that Bush detractros want to be likened to.
Bart sez: There was not a word of criticism of the Hanson op-ed. Instead, they merely linked to the article as yet another opinion on the subject. Indeed, Powerline agreed with Hanson's critique
ReplyDeleteOF COURSE Powerline did not disagree with Victor Davis Hanson;Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute.
Eyes WIde Open said...
ReplyDeleteWho was responsible for what happened in Vietnam? The neo-cons were not around then, were they? If not, what group was responsible for this policy? Whoever was responsible, the military went along with it, right?
We were actually involved in Viet Nam during the Eisenhower and Kennedy admins in a very small way. It was Lyndon B. Johnson who was responsible for the major escalations of the war. He used the Gulf of Tonkin incident (in which the North Vietnamese allegedly attacked our Naval fleet there, widely believed to be false now) to wrest concessions from Congress to increase our military presence to a point where at one time we had 500,000 troops in country. Two of the other major players were Robert Mcnamara, and General Westmoreland. Much like in Iraq the war was mismanaged fom the beginning.
Johnson micromanaged the war to the point that there wasn't much point in having Generals there. One of his more famous sayings was "Them boys can't even bomb a outhouse (in North Viet Nam) without my say so." The Air force gave him a list of 300 hundred targets in North Viet Nam that needed to be bombed numbered in priority from 1-300. He made them work backwards over a period of two years from 300 to number 1, giving the NV plenty of time to prepare and save the targets we considered the highest priority. He micromanaged to the point of ordering the direction the attacking flights would come from and what type of ordinance they would carry. He made them bomb coal fields. You can't destroy coal by bombing it, you can only scatter it. Stupid to say the least.
McNamara: He was a numbers guy. He looked for the number of sorties flown and the Generals knew they better have high sorie numbers if they wanted that next star. At one time there was a shortage of bombs because we had sold all of the iron casings to Germany for scrap. (Needless to say they were more than happy to sell them back to us at highly inflated prices.) Because Mcnamara was a numbers guy and the Generals, because they knew they had to keep the sortie number, up started flying planes out with only one bomb loaded on each plane instead of flying a few planes with a full load. More planes and pilots lost because of the necessity of sortie count. One of the worst he did though was when he found out that the NV had put in their first anti-aircraft missle site. He boasted to the world that he was going to take the site out. The NV not being dumb removed the missles and propped up telephone poles painted white to simulate the missles. They then porceeded to pepper the area with a 1000 or so anti-aircraft guns. The day before the mission a recon mission was flown which clearly showed that the missles had been removed and that all that was there were telephone poles painted white. But hey his pride was on the line because of his boast so he ordered the mission to be flown anyway. We lost six pilots and six aircraft that day.
When I left there in 1970 it had gotten to the point that we had to get clearance from higher up before we could return fire when we were fired upon. By the time we got clearance we were either already past the danger or we were going down in a ball of flame because our defensive fire was too late. My helmet came unplugged an awful lot during that time period and absent any verbal communication I assumed I had clearance to return fire. :) Glad that was my last tour though. Didn't want to go back after that. Didn't relish being a sitting duck target and didn't relish getting courtmartialed for not being one.
"OF COURSE Powerline did not disagree with Victor Davis Hanson;Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that wouldn't give them a moments pause in dismissing out of hand Martin Van Creveld's opinion of the Iraq invasion.
Hypatia, you're gibbering. It's painful to watch because you're usually so rational, even when I disagree with your conclusions.
ReplyDeleteIf one objected to Moscow's views or control, once simply did not remain within the CPUSA; one was purged, a few even were killed (altho this was more common in European Communist parties), or one quit.
You do realize that many, if not most, of the people ensnared in the McCarthy/HUAC witchhunt had quit CPUSA years before -- don't you?
CPUSA membership peaked in the 1930s, when there was reason to believe that the capitalist model had failed and long before Stalin's carnage was revealed. As the US economy recovered and the USSR's abuses and miseries became widely known, most people did leave the party -- without paying with their lives, contra your unsupported assertion.
Didn't matter. Membership in the party in 1933 was enough to wreck your career two decades later -- even if you'd left in 1934 and had led a blameless life of producing-and-consuming ever since.
As far as "they were all controlled directly by Stalin" -- don't be an idiot. No doubt the leadership was connected and directed (to what degree and for how long, I don't know) but, as with any other human endeavor, the majority of members were far less tied to the party and its dictates. You sound like a grassy-knoll Trilateral-Commission lizard-people conspiracy theorist.
You may not be aware of this, but hysteria over Communism (as you're displaying) was the major weapon used to discredit the civil rights movement in the 1950s and early '60s. That was one reason why MLK Jr. was so effective, leading from the pulpit; as one activist said at the time, "It's a lot harder to red-bait Jesus."
The reality is far more complex and interesting than your paranoid fantasies. I just finished a job that involved this topic and I could give you a reading list -- thoroughly researched and thoughtful material produced by working historians, not penny-dreadfuls cranked out by sloppy hacks like Horowitz. I can post it here, if you want.
But honestly -- Hypatia, get a grip. The CPUSA has the same unhinging effect on you that Michael Moore does. Did a Commie push you off a swing, or what? You're too smart, too thoughtful, to be spewing this ooga-booga nonsense.
Nuf Said: Stalin butchered untold millions of PEOPLE, not Jews, Christians, Muslims, Gypsies, or homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteWhile Stalinists were fairly despicable, the whole McCarthyism period was about fear of being LABELED as a communist. Your dismissal of the list posted by Moff is troubling.
Why? Many if not most of those people were Stalinists. Richard Wright, for example, even wrote a renunciation of Stalinism after seeing it for what it was. These people supported a butcher who killed untold millions of other people. And let me assure you, he eventually began turning on Jews qua Jews.
McCarthy was a buffoon and demagogue. But his sins do not excuse all of those who apologized for a vicious, murderous tyrant, and who considered the Soviet Union their true home. When Hitler violated the pact he had with Stalin and invaded the USSR, Stalinist Lillian Hellman hysterically announced that "the Motherland has been attacked!"
"Here is a very entertaining, yet serious, review in Reason of one book written by two of the historians who have been writing about all the new data; a book review called
ReplyDeleteFools for Communism: Still apologists after all these years"
I want to focus on the single opinion in that review that derives from unequivical facts:
"Miami University’s Robert W. Thurston, in his 1996 book Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia, rejects the overwhelming evidence that Stalin’s purges took the lives of millions. He concedes only 681,692 executions in the years 1937 and 1938, and a mere 2.5 million arrests."
The use of the terms "he concedes" and "a mere" for what are clearly extreme numbers reveals skewed judgement, to say the least. I'm perfectly willing to believe that people projected their preferences onto the obscene Soviet regime; but what I see here is spittle flecked ranting, which "Hypatia" clearly loves wallowing in. It's not "serious" in any way. I've never doubted Conquest, by the way.
The fact that "Hypatia" is unable to detect shades of grey in an excess of a century of complex history is mighty revealing. Probably a big reason why she is responsible in part for the 2nd term of Bush the Fascist. He's a black and white kind of guy, after all.
Vetiver writes: As far as "they were all controlled directly by Stalin" -- don't be an idiot. No doubt the leadership was connected and directed (to what degree and for how long, I don't know) but, as with any other human endeavor, the majority of members were far less tied to the party and its dictates. You sound like a grassy-knoll Trilateral-Commission lizard-people conspiracy theorist.
ReplyDeleteYou may not be aware of this, but hysteria over Communism (as you're displaying) was the major weapon used to discredit the civil rights movement in the 1950s and early '60s. That was one reason why MLK Jr. was so effective, leading from the pulpit; as one activist said at the time, "It's a lot harder to red-bait Jesus."
You are unfamiliar with the most recent scholarship if you do not understand that, by definition, CPUSA members were under tight Party discipline, and the Party was directly controlled by Moscow. This is beyond all reasonable dispute. Dissenting from Stalin or an order from Moscow was as well tolerated as is a criticism of L.Ron Hubbard is in the church of Scientology, which is to say, not at all.
Moscow promoted the civil rights movement in the United States, which is a large reason why the CPUSA attracted Paul Robeson and Richard Wright, as well as other blacks. Moscow did not actually care about American blacks, and merely wished to encourage social unrest, but it really did promote civil rights agitation. Indeed, it ordered that agitation suspended during WWII since it would disrupt the war effort, and the CPUSA dutifully complied. (This is all amply documented, with documents from the archives from the former USSR.)
That you think I sound like conspiracy theorist railing about the Trilateral Commission merely shows how well the official narrative of the CPUSA has taken hold among the reading class. But it isn't a true narrative. And my source for that view is not even sort of David Horowitz (but his Robeson passage is widely quoted online, so I cut and pasted from one of the many cites where it is found, and that passage is accurate).
It is primarily professional historians like John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr that inform my views on the CPUSA. Virtually everything I have written here is common knowledge at a scholarly site Haynes edits, and one I often read (and have on rare occasion commented to), H-Net's History of American Communism list. This area of U.S. history is something of an avocation of mine. If I do say so myself, I'm quite well read in it.
Morlock writes: The fact that "Hypatia" is unable to detect shades of grey in an excess of a century of complex history is mighty revealing. Probably a big reason why she is responsible in part for the 2nd term of Bush the Fascist. He's a black and white kind of guy, after all.
ReplyDeleteWhat "shades of grey" am I supposed to see in membership in an organization of dutiful drones committed to the service of a mass-murdering tyrant? These people and their fellow travelers spent most of the 20th century denying the truth about and apologizing for Joseph Stalin and/or the USSR. Or spying for him and giving him the atomic bomb.
Should there be "shades of grey" for the SS and the voluntary members of the Nazi Party? (HUAC was founded not to root out CPUSA members, but the American Nazi Bund.)
Hypatia, you are completely ignoring vetiver’s point that many caught up in these investigations had quit the CPUSA years before. The timeline here is very relevant.
ReplyDeleteOut of the hundreds of names on that blacklist, how many were found to be actual members of the Communist Party? Does anyone actually know?
And let’s take a look at just one name, one of those despicable people in that “collection of amiable folk singers, brave anti-segregationists, and Steinbeckian labor organizers” who “would do literally anything for Moscow, even kill”: Pete Seeger.
Now how many people did Pete Seeger kill for Stalin? What secrets did he reveal? What are his specific crimes?
Now Pete Seeger was actually a member of the Communist Party, he doesn’t deny that. And he even took the isolationist party line in 1941 when Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact. But when Germany broke that pact, he advocated strong action against Germany and he served in the US army in the pacific.
Let’s not forget, at that time, Stalin was our ally, a point that seems to be overlooked when smearing some of these people.
Seeger left the Communist Party five years before Khrushchev revealed Stalin’s mass crimes, which at the time caused a mass exodus from the party. (That’s what vetiver is referring to.) Seeger then became anti-Stalinist. Another point that seems to be forgotten. Yet, he will always be a Stalinist for the likes of Horowitz.
What danger did Seeger pose against the United States? Is there any evidence that he harmed his country? Did his protest songs hurt us?
Bruce Springsteen has just released a collection of songs performed by this “despicable Stalinist” in “The Seeger Sessions.”
Shame on him, right?
Zack writes: Now Pete Seeger was actually a member of the Communist Party, he doesn’t deny that. And he even took the isolationist party line in 1941 when Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact. But when Germany broke that pact, he advocated strong action against Germany and he served in the US army in the pacific.
ReplyDeleteLet’s not forget, at that time, Stalin was our ally, a point that seems to be overlooked when smearing some of these people.
The Hitler-Stalin non-aggression pact was signed in 1939. At that time, one of the Hollywood Ten, Stalinist Dalton Trumbo, got to work on an anti-war novel, Johnny Got his Gun. When Hitler invaded the USSR in '41, Trumbo pulled the book out of circulation, and that brave martyr who would not name names to HUAC, began sending to the FBI the names of every pacifist, Quaker or other opponent of WWII who wrote to request his book. Trumbo urged that the FBI look into the activities of people who would exhibit such an interest. (Trumbo re-released the book, either for Korea and/or Vietnam.)
Communists by the droves signed up for WWII in '41 because they were defending Joseph Stalin. Had the non-aggression pact with Hitler held, they would have totally opposed that war -- the only important issue for them was what was in the best interest of Joseph Stalin. Some began spying for Stalin at that time, while in the military.
AS for this" Now how many people did Pete Seeger kill for Stalin? What secrets did he reveal? What are his specific crimes?
Seeger promoted the goals of Joseph Stalin in whatever manner the Party required of him. Otherwise, he would not have been allowed to remain in it. He committed no crime (that I am aware of) but I would not oppose efforts to shun and ostracize him for having shilled for a repulsive dictator who was killing millions, unless and until he repented of his support of that tyrant, and made some amends.
I do not know the status of all of the people on the list posted above. Some I know well. Whether all were CPUSA members and whether they particularly suffered for it, I do not know, and merely setting them forth on a list doesn't establish much at all. I do know I hold zero sympathy for apologists for Joseph Stalin, which CPUSA members were by definition.
Bart said:
ReplyDeletetttthhhhhppppppttttttttttttttt
putt putt putt
tttttthhhhhhhppppppppppppttttttttttooooooooooooooooooooohhhh
So do you need some toilet paper now? And please, be sure to flush this time.
Ender writes: Hypatia.... still scared of the commie pinko bogeyman. It must be a libertarian thing. The further "right" one goes (especially on the economic spectrum) the greater the requirement to despise the left. Thus those with any "socialist" leanings at all are to be automatically associated with Stalinist doctrine and discredited at all costs. She would have been sitting right their next to McCarthy taking notes.
ReplyDeleteNot "scared," revolted. Disgusted by. And I assure you, I do not associate all left-leaning people with Stalinists. In point of fact, there were many left/liberal individuals who had the good sense to always despise Stalin and Stalinists. John Dewey, Sidney Hook, the Democrats in Americans for Democratic Action.
You are ignorant of both history and my views.
How many retired generals are there?
ReplyDeleteHe committed no crime (that I am aware of) but I would not oppose efforts to shun and ostracize him for having shilled for a repulsive dictator who was killing millions, unless and until he repented of his support of that tyrant, and made some amends…. I do know I hold zero sympathy for apologists for Joseph Stalin, which CPUSA members were by definition.
ReplyDeleteWhen many in the party learned of Stalin’s crimes, they left the party, and they denounced Stalin. Why is that so hard for you to accept? You keep denying it.
Did everyone know at the time Stalin killed millions? You act as if they knew that and were fine with it. But that isn’t true.
When those facts came out there was a mass exodus from the party. Please stop pretending that everyone who was ever a member of the party endorsed killing millions of people – that’s absurd. Please stop.
Once those crimes came out Seeger denounced Stalin, but that isn’t good enough -- you are still holding him (rhetorically) responsible for Stalin’s murders even though you admit you have no evidence that Pete Seeger ever committed a crime, and even condemned the crimes you cite.
That you still want him ostracized and shunned after all these years based upon crimes that he did not commit, (or was even aware of at the time) is just very sad.
Good night, and good luck.
From Bart at 8:07PM:
ReplyDelete"Nonsense. What "abject failures?""
Precisely *how* is Iraq a functioning, peaceful, stable state at this present time?
Weren't you the one commenting on 'willful blindness' yesterday?
Bart continues:
"Folks, DC is a company town. The company is government. They are all political hacks. There is no such thing as a non-political employee in DC."
Presupposing you have some special insight into living in the District, I suppose we must grant this point. Similarly there is no such thing as a non-political blogger or commentator or pundit. Similarly there is no such thing as a non-political soldier (enlisted or officer) or policeman or fireman or butcher or baker or candlestickmaker.
That said, how about we look at the respective records of the persons in question.
Joseph Wilson - career diplomat, acutally faced down Hussein face-to-face, conducted a thorough investigation in Niger and accurately reported his findings.
Richard Clarke - career civil servant, served with distinction in multiple administrations, proved to be right about the threat Al Qaeda represented (prior to 9/11), developed a comprehensive and practical operational plan to counter this threat.
Now, in comparison, we have the folks at Powerline, Secretary Rumsfield, Vice-President Cheney, and President Bush; in order, a gaggle of all-mouth-no-action-nobodies, an incompetent executive, a corrupt politico, and an abject failure and borderline laughing stock.
Draw your own conclusions as to who is more admirable.
Thanks Nuf, but I didn't mean how many retired generals have called for Rumsfeld's resignation, but how many retired generals there are. The total.
ReplyDeleteIs six a lot? Six out of 10 or what? What's the total number of retired U.S. generals?
First off, I rarely comment. Mostly, I like reading the posts and the comments. I'm glad you are back Glenn, and am grateful for AL's posts. I intend to visit AL's blog :)
ReplyDeleteWith regard to the criticism of the retired generals, I'm wondering what James Webb may have to say. His campaign in Virginia against Allen is in no small part a reaction to this very smearing of the military. I have long standing problems with Webb -- I can remember reading a peice he wrote in the '80's that I took particular offense to, but I appreciate his strength and valor. I think he wrote an editorial for the NYT in which he suggested that if this sort of tearing down of the military continues, we risk those who defend us not seeing it as worthwhile. I don't mean to mischaracterize what he said, so here's thelink.
As for the elephant on this thread, Hypatia, you have a number of sore points that you pursue like a tenatious bird dog -- I mean nothing ill by that (got a good ol' bird dog here in the house and I love her) -- but as far as the other-than-American view of communism or even Stalin, interacting with people who are not fanatical about either is actually enlightening and healthy. I actually enjoy reading most of your comments. I also see in you people whom I know that have very little experience with the average folks who dealt with both situations -- either in their lives or through their parents. I'll try to make an analogy, flawed probably. Let's say that you think that Reagan brought down the Soviet Union and argued that passionately. Then let's say I countered with the idea that Reagan was the US president at a time when it happened. Both of us could cite many sources, but neither of us could argue the point without admitting to our predisposed ideas.
I don't know. Maybe that was a seriously crappy analogy. Perhaps I am only asking you, Hypatia, to let that bone go.
"BTW, who exactly were the "innocent people" whose lives were "destroyed" by Joseph McCarthy? What are their names?
ReplyDeleteI do know of one brilliant person whose career was torpedoed and that was Elia Kazan."
That's what I wrote. I made a distinction between "lives" and "careers."
I don't know everyone on Grand Moff's list but I recognize a whole lot of names, and not one is a person I would say had his life destroyed, much less his career, although I am open to new information if there was someone who did.
I said Kazan's career was "torpedoed" as he was ostracized in Hollywood and not hired by most to make films even though he was one of the most brilliant directors of all time, but I didn't even say his career was "ruined".
I said "torpedoed" meaning interrupted and harmed.
As for the pinkos who howled that their lives were ruined but then verbally and socially eviscerated Elia Kazan for saying what he thought, puh---leeze. Talk about hypocrisy. Those are the defenders of freedom of thought and freedom of speech?
I would think the innocent detainees who have been tortured, brutalized, imprisoned and even murdered in Guantanemo and all the black op gulags are representative of people I would agree have had their lives destroyed, not Dorothy Parker.
Hypatia is the person whose posts on this subject I most agree with.
Stalin himself was responsible for the deaths of over 20,000,000 people. I am suppose to feel huge sympathy for some people who were falsely accused (but not punished by the State)of x,y and z but who sympathized with and supported one of the most brutal and heinous forms of government the world has ever known? What were they, so stupid they couldn't tell the minute they first read up on communism that it is an evil doctrine?
Fascism and communism are the same exact thing. They are merely sold under different brand names. In both cases you have the State against the Individual. The reason I hate authoritarianism as much as I do is because if you let people alone and do not seek to control their lives in any way (other than making sure they respect the rights of others and follow the kinds of laws [like not driving while drunk] which are necessary for people to live together in a civilized society) you can really not do them all that much harm.
Are you saying because individual A took a right position he should get a pass although his basic philosophy is heinous? If the commies were early civil rights fighters that is great. I admire them for that aspect of their history in this country.
I don't admire their communism or socialism. If they had prevailed in this country, it would have hit the tank even sooner than it has now done.
To the poster who said I probably don't care about innocent people I say you could not be more wrong. I care about every person on this earth who is victimized by his government or brutalized by evil men or subjected to unjust punishment of any sort.
As for Grand Moff, you say your father had a fur farm? Did you support that venture or are you saying that jokingly?
These days I only go to "lefty" blogs for obvious reasons. But "come the revolution" as they say, when it's over, I'll be going back to the laissez faire capitalism, US Constitution bunker and looking around for Galt's Gulch rather than breaking bread with some collectivists and brainstorming with them as they make lists of more and more "rights" I hardly think are "rights" and figure out new ways to control others and thereby enslave them.
Hypatia and Horowitz
ReplyDeleteSittin' in a tree
-L-Y-I-N-G-
First come smears
Then defamation
Then comes Hypatia
The McCarthy grand matron
The headline of this post is "A Resolute Fantasy World". In light of the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed 15 years ago, I can hardly imagine a more suitable rabbit hole in which to classify the comments from the likes of people like "Hypatia" , "Eyes Wide Open" and a few others show revealing their John Birch rightwing Whittaker Chamber dementia credentials. Have you thought of seeking professional psychiatric help? We do care and hope for your swift recovery and return to the reality based world.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mister Greenwald, for putting it into words very well.
ReplyDeleteRobert Peate
http://rpeate.livejournal.com
Well Glenn, its like I have noted before the neo-cons are just like a religious cult. No mountain of emperical evidence will be enough for them. Because thats not how they operate. They operate on faith. I would refer you to a book "The End Of Faith' by Sam Harris.
ReplyDeleteZack writes: Did everyone know at the time Stalin killed millions? You act as if they knew that and were fine with it. But that isn’t true.
ReplyDeleteWhen those facts came out there was a mass exodus from the party. Please stop pretending that everyone who was ever a member of the party endorsed killing millions of people – that’s absurd. Please stop.
It was widely and well known that Stalin was killing millions. Many had been saying so for decades and as it unfolded, and the Stalinists in the CPUSA moved heaven and Earth to deny it, even when they saw it with their own eyes. It had long been known. Moreover, dictatorship is inherent in Communism. The CPUSA members themselves submitted to it in terms of Party discipline.
But when Khrushchev conceded the crimes of Stalin, their brains broke. They had no way to deny that, and so the exodus occurred. The mounds of evidence were as nothing to them, however, until the heir to Stalin admitted the truth. Nothing was true for them until the Communist Leader said so. Prior to Kruschev's admissions, they ridiculed all who told of Stalin's crimes, and denied, denied, denied.
Fools. Willfully ignorant fools.
It seems to me that we're all missing the point here: they do not have to admit they failed in any stated objectvie because the stated objective has nothing to do with the actual objective, my guess has to do with destabilizing the region along religious lines to ensure access to the oil or limit Russia/China's access while creating a market for weapons. In essence, we're fulfilling their wildest dreams by blathering on about failing to secure the country, etc. If it's about the oil -- either access or limiting others access, who cares. At least from the administration's standpoint.
ReplyDeleteeyes wide open:
ReplyDeleteget your own blog.
anything past eight paragraghs and readers tend to glaze over with the impression you're doing nothing but feed your ego with a thesarus at your side.
ender writes: Your problem is not that you are "ignorant of history" (as you claim I am) but rather that you will happily try to shape, frame or otherwise spin history to meet your world view. This is just another case in point - you will gladly paint all leftists with a broad brush until you are called on it
ReplyDeleteFascinating. At no time have I ever conflated Stalinists with "all leftists," or sought to paint all leftists as such. Indeed, if you search the archives here you will see that I have repeatedly insisted that people like Ann Coulter gravely err on associating all liberals with Communists or treason; she is an affront to truth and reason.
It is very strange, but insisting on the truth about the ideological and literal crimes of American Communists always engenders fierce and angry reactions. *I* do not say these are your ideological forebears; your hyper-defensive reaction suggests that you feel kinship with Stalinists. (shrug)
Eyes Wide Open:
ReplyDelete...All the while completely oblivious to the fact that someone with more money than you tells you what to do for eight hours a day, five days a week. That's some "liberty" you got there.
Of course, it would be sixteen hours a day, seven days a week if not for those dirty collectivists (anarchists and union organizers, specifically) and their marches a hundred years ago. You've got Socialist Party hacks like Upton Sinclair to thank for being able to eat beef without lethal doses of disease, rot, or excrement.
Let me be blunt: Ayn Rand is full of shit. The self-righteous main characters were all born into the aristocratic class, janitors are condemned to spend the rest of their lives cleaning up said rich-persons' shit (that old-timer saying, essentially, "know your place" was disgusting), and "bankers make time!??"
"Umm, yeah, I'll take a large fuckin' break with a reality check on the side, please."
Hypatia, I know that you willing ignor me. I remember when you did that "gotcha" with Michael Moore's comments and other threads that you have turned into your own "private" places to voice your more obscure rightwing views. Without Glenn's moderation on this thread, you have continued your digging -- just like that pretty proud dog I call mine :)
ReplyDeleteYou assert that dictatorship is inherent in communism. In fact, totalitarianism is more commonly found in dictatorial regigms. The conflagation of political and economical relms are working even still.
Hypatia, what about James Webb? Have you no opinion? For me, you two are in the same pod. I have huge issues with both of you. However, when I saw that James Webb switched, I was heartened. I trust you both as far as I can throw you. I welcome you, nonetheless.
anon writes: and a few others show revealing their John Birch rightwing Whittaker Chamber dementia credentials.
ReplyDeleteWhat, does it annoy you that Alger Hiss was exposed as a Communist spy by Whittaker Chambers, so Chambers must be trashed as a Bircher? Sam Tanenahus is the liberal editor of the NYT Review of Books. His masterful and respectful biography of Chambers concludes that Chambers told the truth, at great personal cost.
It always amuses me, the reaction of some leftwingers when the putrid reality of what they must regard as their ideologicial forebears is set forth in a way they cannot defend or deny. Seldom do the personal attacks and vitriol reach such a crescendo, except when I discuss the depravity of the American Stalinists. Face it: they served in fealty to a monster, and did so willingly and slavishly, many to the great harm of the United States.
Hypatia, without Glenn's moderation, you simply go off. You listen to no one but Glenn, if you listenat all, and it is getting tiring.
ReplyDeleteI have been an anarchist since I was a teenager. I was born in Texas and have lived in this great state all my life, except when I live in the former Soviet Union, which I did for prolonged periods after the fall.
The strawman that you construct in your argument doesn't exist. I can't believe that I am typing this.
I'll ask again, what of James Webb? He was a good man. Has he gone all commie on us? He seems to support Kerry and Murtha.
Daphne writes: Hypatia, I know that you willing ignor me. I remember when you did that "gotcha" with Michael Moore's comments and other threads that you have turned into your own "private" places to voice your more obscure rightwing views.
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm just having fun here. I started out seriously engaging others like Zack, but as it went on, and is always the case when the issue of domestic Communists comes up in a forum with some leftwingers, some go insane when the truth about the CPUSA and its "martyrs" is set forth.
I literally drives them to spit-flecked spewing of deranged insults and fits of apoplexy. So, I keep on and just wait for it to happen, and it always does.
Maybe next I'll post the decades of crap from The Nation, insisting that all who claimed Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty were reactionary McCarthyites and liars. And then maybe I'll post their more recent, petulant admissions now that those darn archives of the former Soviet Union and other data have made it impossible to continue with the apologies for Stalinists. Yup, always fun to see how the "reality-based" community quickly, eagerly, and always embraced reality.
What, does it annoy you that Alger Hiss was exposed as a Communist spy by Whittaker Chambers, so Chambers must be trashed as a Bircher?
ReplyDeleteWhitaker Chambers alleged Alger Hiss was a communist spy, like that woman has alleged she was gang-raped by the Duke LaCrosse team. Alger Hiss was convicted of perjury only, for lying about knowing Hiss. No one here suggested Chambers was a John Bircher. We just think you have all the same qualities as any average member of that organization. If that is trashing it's definitely white trashing. You are a white person, aren't
you?
And of James Webb, as regards the post that Hypatia is commenting on:
ReplyDeletenothing.
yeah, Hypatia, ignor that big bad elephant. Per ususal.
Maybe next I'll post
ReplyDeleteMaybe you won't again, commenting is another matter.
Yeah, hypatia, it is all fun and games.
ReplyDeleteYou have nothing to COUNTER James Webb.
"gotcha" on the Stanlinish thang.
Your time here is only saved by Glenn himself. Good on you that he let you post. I, as a good anarchist, would have put you in your place. But it is not my decision to make.
Ryan Burkett said...
ReplyDelete"The generals make two arguments here: 1) that Iraq should not have been invaded, and 2) that the military planning was a disaster.
If sombody asked me "Just what would it take to convince you?"...
For point 1 I would need to believe:
- Iraq would not substantially support terrorism
- Iraq was not circumventing the UN Oil for Food program
- There were no "dual-use" facilities that could have been converted to WMD production in a short time
- No WMD was smuggled out of the country prior to the war"
As for your first point:
Ryan why don't you ask yourself what claims were made for going to war that proved true afterwards? Going to war just because someone is a bad guy that we don't like or because we suspect him of doing or having done something is simply not enough reason to shed American blood.
"For point 2 I would need to believe:
- The historically-low casualties of the operation outweigh the war's benefits"
As for your second point:
Why don't you ask yourself why the casualty rates are historically low if in fact they are as you claim.
Here is a hint, they aren't any lower only the ratio of KIA to wounded has changed.
"That more troops would have results in less casualties and not just more targets"
More troops wouldn't have solved anything. At one time there were 500,000 troops in Viet Nam with the same results.
"- That alternative plans would have substantially different results, despite allowing the enemy an 18-month preparation period prior to the invasion."
Alternative plans wouldn't have solved anything either.
The bottom line is that peace and democracy cannot be imposed on anyone at the end of a gun barrel wielded by outsiders. To assume that it can is pure folly.
BTW, when I use the work "pinko, I do it semi-humorously and not with any malice. I call all right wing people fascists, and all left wing people pinkos. Makes me happy.
ReplyDeleteRe: Ayn Rand's characters being artistocrats, maybe you should actually read her writings. Her heroes are all self-made men.
Gris lobo, that was a very harrowing post you wrote. It saddens me you had to go through such a horrible experience. It's always hard to believe such high level people could be both so incredibly stupid and so grotesquely immoral.The problem no doubt is that moral men do seek to control others, and therefore few go into politics.
James writes You've got Socialist Party hacks like Upton Sinclair to thank for being able to eat beef without lethal doses of disease, rot, or excrement .
I told you I am against all cruelty, and I would no more harm an animal or devour its carcass than I would a human. If he had anything to do with more people eating beef, I don't thank him but rather condemn him.
The Generals' Revolt by Pat Buchanan
ReplyDeleteWashington Post columnist David Ignatius, who travels often to Iraq and supports the war, says that the generals mirror the views of 75 percent of the officers in the field, and probably more.
This is not a Cindy Sheehan moment.
I keep thinking about gris lobo's post about Vietnam. Wars are such an atrocity.
Hypatia - you lose my interest when you refer to "Stalinists" as "drones" or "robots". That doesn't strike me as terribly insightful.
ReplyDeleteBack to the top: great post, Glenn.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteFunny how you criticize Powerline’s questioning of the generals by calling them “Bush followers” & then say they ”…have publicly speculated about every defamatory motive which could be fueling these Generals” while all of the while speculating in a defamatory way that they are blind apologists & their motives are suspect. If your argument isn’t a pot calling the kettle black scenario, then nothing is. You have shown all of the intellectual honesty of a poorly thrown sucker punch & produced nothing more than what you have criticized Powerline for… partisan conjecture.
American Generals have always questioned the motives, actions & results of military actions since the Revolutionary War – Benedict Arnold being one of the most famous, vocal & highly recognized questioning American Generals, Eisenhower & Patton both questioned the North African invasion & the plans for the D-Day landings, Lincoln’s plans for the Civil War were questioned by most of his Generals & he went through several before settling on Grant, Reagan’s view & approach to the Cold War was constantly questioned as well. Lincoln, Truman & Reagan all had very low approval numbers. This is nothing new, but those questions raised didn’t necessarily prevent the successes obtained either, nor did their low polling numbers or the fractioning support by the American people at the time. Or were the supporters of George Washington, Abe Lincoln or Ronald Reagan just mindless followers as well? It was history that proved those courses of action were viable & it is history that will eventually prove whether Rumsfeld & Bush are correct as well. Not polls numbers, nor bloggers either for or against. The rest are opinions that will probably bear little light on the full truth or consequences of the actions or strategies employed in Iraq, but they are merely opinions none-the-less & should be treated as such.
Until history has shown the truth, it seems to me the wisest course of action would be to follow the views of the generals who are in the field & the men & women under their command. But then again, if they disagree w/ the questioning generals or you, I’m sure they are just mindless “Bush followers” or cultists to be dismissed.
pmain,
ReplyDelete'Funny how you criticize Powerline’s questioning of the generals by calling them “Bush followers” & then say they ”…have publicly speculated about every defamatory motive which could be fueling these Generals” while all of the while speculating in a defamatory way that they are blind apologists & their motives are suspect.'
It's not funny at all, in fact, it's entirely unremarkable--have you been to Powerline before?
EWO said...
ReplyDeleteThese days I only go to "lefty" blogs for obvious reasons. But "come the revolution" as they say, when it's over, I'll be going back to the laissez faire capitalism...
In addition to what Ender has suggested, spend some time over here: Critiques of Libertarianism. Mike Huben has been debating this issue on-line since before you even knew what a computer was. His current site is only ten years old but it is packed with information you really need, and he's probably a libertarian himself, albeit not the whacked out anarcho-capitalist flavor that Ender refers to.
Speaking of fantasy worlds, lets get a little perspective here when it comes to slaughter, shall we?
ReplyDeleteWe are all familiar with the nazi holocaust. Quite a few deaths in a relatively short number of years...
The Soviets had a considerably longer period of time to do their dirty work and the actual death toll is a matter of great speculation, but neither they, nor the Nazis ever came close to the sheer murderous efficiency of the CIA implemented and backed liquidation of over 1,000,000 Indonesians, some 250,000 in just four months in 1966, most of whom weren't even communists, just alleged communists. How many actual witches do you suppose were dispatched during the Salem witch trials?
The more I think about this Iraq War situation, the 'sabre rattling' against Iran, (and I assume eventual war) huge deficits, huge trade imballances with damned near everyone, the more it strikes me that we won't be able to keep this up for much longer. Could this be the 'drowned it in the bathtub' phase?
ReplyDeleteAnon writes: Whitaker Chambers alleged Alger Hiss was a communist spy, like that woman has alleged she was gang-raped by the Duke LaCrosse team.
ReplyDeleteAnd Chambers had evidence to prove it. Lots and lots of it, which is how Hiss got himself convicted for perjury the statute of limitations having run out for an espionage charge. Alger Hiss was a Communist spy, and there is one Venona decrypt referencing him as such -- not that this was needed, as the great weight of evidence already proved it. Little things like Chambers possessing myriad State Dept documents that only Hiss would have had, some with his initials printed on it, others typed on his family typewriter. Venona and other data also overwhelmingly demonstrate that the other spies Chambers listed were in fact such, and there is no reason he should have just tossed Hiss in as a sole lie. (And as I wrote, Chambers' liberal biographer, Sam Tanenhaus, conlcudes -- as have all other reasonable people -- that Hiss was guilty.)
You ought to give it up. Even self-described "socialist" apologists for Stalin like radical historian Ellen Schrecker have, in the last few years, petulantly conceded that the evidence is now too overwhelming to deny Hiss's guilt.Damn near killed her, but she did it.
For the benighted who think Sam Tanenhaus is a conservative -- just because he wrote a sympathetic biography of Whittaker Chambers and concludes that Hiss was guilty -- get over it. Tanenhasu is a liberal Democrat, promoted by Truthout. Writes Tanenhaus, about why Howard Dean and the "extremist base" should be listened to:
ReplyDeleteIn fact, even as the Democratic Leadership Council sounded its alarm in Philadelphia, some 1,000 young right-wing firebrands assembled at the Republican college convention in Washington. They excitedly discussed Ann Coulter's new book "Treason," which depicts liberals as the enemy within, and heard from a prominent lobbyist who described Democrats as "the ascension of evil, the bad guys, the Bolsheviks." Other highlights were speeches by Tom DeLay, the vociferous House majority leader, and Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's political maestro, who looked delighted by the enthusiasm of these extremists.
Our two major parties seem to have swapped identities. The Republican establishment, presumably allied with the rich and privileged, embraces its populist core of hard-edged activists, while the Democratic elite, supposed champions of "the people," evidently fears them. Only one party has learned the lesson of 1964 that extremists should not be lectured to but listened to, because they may have something important to say.
This entire discussion of Communism began in a thread below, when it was suggested that the accusation of McCarthyism should be leveled at those who question the patriotism of Bush critics. I explained that was a bad idea, given that McCarthyism is broadly understood to apply to any anti-Communism, and that the Communists really were reprehensible, really were controlled by Moscow, and many really did commit espionage.
Very tellingly but not surprisingly, howls of outrage ensued from some on the left who continue to wish to protect the dignity and honor of these Sacred Icons of The Left. Oh well.
And daphne: If you have something to say other than hysterical hand-waving -- "Jim Webb, Jim Webb, Jim Webb!" -- say it. Specify precisely what it is about Webb that supposedly undermines any point I have made, and I will engage it. There is nothing to respond to, however, in what you have shrieked thus far.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 8:07PM: "Nonsense. What "abject failures?""
Precisely *how* is Iraq a functioning, peaceful, stable state at this present time?
Having conceded that the US has achieved all of its objectives in Iraq and frustrated all of the enemy objectives, you go back to the liberal whine that the enemy is conducting terrorism.
Terrorism is a means, not an end unto itself, and that means has failed to accomplish a single end for the enemy.
Bart continues: "Folks, DC is a company town. The company is government. They are all political hacks. There is no such thing as a non-political employee in DC."
Presupposing you have some special insight into living in the District, I suppose we must grant this point. Similarly there is no such thing as a non-political blogger or commentator or pundit...
That said, how about we look at the respective records of the persons in question.
Joseph Wilson - career diplomat, acutally faced down Hussein face-to-face, conducted a thorough investigation in Niger and accurately reported his findings.
LMAO!
Wilson was a diplomat. That is where the facts in your post end.
Wilson (and the Clinton Administration) didn't "face down" Hussein at any time. Hussein violated nearly every provision of the Ceasefire without penalty during that period.
Moreover, Clarke lied and misled about his trip to Niger. He lied about who sent him to Niger and misled about the results of his "tea drinking tour" through Niger which he claimed was an "investigation." After he gave a secret oral report that the former Niger prime minister told him that Iraq tried to restart Uranium trade with Niger in 1998, Clarke turned around and attacked the President in the press claiming that he found no evidence of Iraq seeking uranium.
Richard Clarke - career civil servant, served with distinction in multiple administrations, proved to be right about the threat Al Qaeda represented (prior to 9/11), developed a comprehensive and practical operational plan to counter this threat.
The only option which has worked against al Qaeda is sending in ground troops, deposing the government which shelter the terrorists and killing the terrorists.
This was not even suggested as an option by Clarke. There is no reason to believe that anything suggested by Clarke would have either prevented 9/11 or the prior attacks by al Qaeda, nor taken down al Qaeda.
Clarke was neither inept or a liar like Wilson, but he does have an oversized view of himself.
It is amusing to listen to a bunch of lawyers and other folks without a scintilla of military education or training ridicule the qualifications of the one of the leading military historians of our country.
ReplyDeleteVictor Davis Hanson taught military history to officers at Annapolis and is the author of well over 170 books and articles on military history and the greek classics
Hanson has written essays, editorials, and reviews for the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the International Herald Tribune, the New York Post, National Review, American Heritage, Policy Review, Commentary, National Review, the Wilson Quarterly, the Weekly Standard, Daily Telegraph, and Washington Times and has been interviewed often on National Public Radio, the PBS Newshour, and C-Span BookTV. Currently, he is a weekly columnist for the National Review Online and serves on the editorial board of Arion, the Military History Quarterly, and City Journal, as well as the board of the Claremont Institute.
http://www.hoover.org/bios/hanson.html
If any of you had even cracked a book on military history, that book may have been Hanson's 2000 work, "Culture and Carnage." This book shreds the central argument of Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" that the western military system's dominance over the non-west is merely an accident of history. Rather, Hanson uses individual battle case studies to show the how principles of western culture, particularly the importance of the individual citizen, made the west nearly undefeatable on the battlefield except against another western army.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI believe that your post has described the Alpha-Male phenomenon. The AM is always right, period. The problem with contending with them is that, in promoting their agenda, they are driven to a degree that the rest of the human race doesn't want to commit to. Because it's a form of mental illness.
Bart said:
ReplyDeletePhasellus ligula pede, nonummy vel, iaculis semper, convallis eget, nisi. Donec elit urna, ultricies ut, condimentum ut, adipiscing vel, dui. Donec consequat erat. Maecenas ut lorem ac mi pharetra accumsan. Proin commodo, mauris eget laoreet malesuada, augue dolor euismod tellus, quis porttitor est leo eu dolor. Aenean ante eros, tempus id, accumsan sit amet, vestibulum nec, elit. Nam mollis est. Ut urna elit, imperdiet at, malesuada non, pulvinar sit amet, turpis. Praesent aliquet. Sed dolor lectus, congue eu, pellentesque ac, tincidunt sit amet, sapien. Aliquam et leo in elit pretium tempor. Morbi convallis lectus ac urna. Maecenas et quam ut tortor gravida porttitor. Integer adipiscing purus non dui. Mauris tellus.
Mauris adipiscing massa sed neque. Proin nibh nibh, elementum eget, condimentum in, consectetuer vel, augue. Etiam congue ullamcorper nibh. Cras vitae risus. Ut suscipit accumsan nunc. Aliquam ultricies augue ut diam. Donec volutpat. Cras vel lorem sed ante feugiat rhoncus. Ut sagittis. Fusce nec eros quis lectus tempus placerat. Donec ultrices, erat auctor pellentesque volutpat, sem est condimentum metus, eu consectetuer libero justo ornare ipsum. Pellentesque venenatis. Donec arcu libero, consectetuer posuere, vestibulum sed, vulputate in, purus. Curabitur ornare eros eu mi. Suspendisse est. Cras sit amet erat. Curabitur vel lorem. Quisque commodo, ante in faucibus malesuada, ante mauris hendrerit turpis, id aliquam ipsum purus a nulla. Aliquam lobortis ornare velit.
Integer bibendum, massa at vehicula semper, odio metus malesuada eros, sit amet pellentesque urna mauris a enim. Cras eleifend cursus dolor. Ut rutrum vulputate augue. Quisque in nunc nec lorem viverra tempor. Donec velit eros, tempus in, rutrum vestibulum, pellentesque vel, dolor. Nam lobortis ipsum non mauris. Duis condimentum, magna ac tempus dictum, nunc diam cursus pede, ac tempus eros leo sed dolor. Integer vel erat quis pede porttitor eleifend. Fusce sit amet nunc. Fusce dictum fringilla libero.
Donec pharetra auctor est. Sed vitae velit a tellus sodales fringilla. Phasellus lacus ante, egestas ac, imperdiet ut, commodo et, nisl. Nulla dictum neque vitae sapien. Maecenas at erat imperdiet lacus lacinia hendrerit. Ut ac dolor. Mauris hendrerit neque at pede. Mauris suscipit nonummy mi. Ut eleifend fermentum est. Quisque lacinia odio eu justo. Donec feugiat. Donec imperdiet, ante sit amet cursus lobortis, nibh nisi imperdiet velit, eget dignissim lacus quam at mi. Vestibulum vitae nunc ut lorem suscipit pellentesque. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. Etiam tellus velit, tempor non, consectetuer et, consequat sed, mauris. Quisque tempor mollis diam. Praesent non leo. Maecenas nibh lacus, adipiscing quis, semper vitae, ultricies et, sem. Vestibulum et sem non sapien adipiscing imperdiet. Ut quis lacus.
meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow
meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow
And for those of us who have no illusions about the FBI and that they have been planting evidence and lying under oath for years to discredit America's political enemies, it's what they do best, most credible historians and academics today recognize that Hiss was probably innocent and the Rosenbergs, although Julius was guilty of passing some worthless crude drawings, did not deserve the death penalty. I don't know where bozo gets her info but none of it has any basis in fact and Barf just regurgitates resumes which as we all know are greatly embellished by conservatard fuckwits like Hanson.
ReplyDeleteThe case for the innocence of Alger Hiss
The Typewriter
The Woodstock typewriter was a key part of the prosecution's case against Hiss, the alleged "smoking gun" that physically linked the Hiss family to the Baltimore documents in Chambers's possession. Ironically, the defense investigators had tracked the family's old typewriter on their own, believing that the machine would vindicate Alger Hiss from the allegations. An FBI typewriter expert would testify that the documents must have originated from the Hiss typewriter. Hiss responded, "I am amazed; until the day I die I shall wonder how Whittaker Chambers got into my house to use my typewriter". Later, it was revealed that the FBI expert had committed perjury at the trial. Some of the papers also included handwritten notes by Hiss, and Hiss and his defense team did not dispute their provenance.
Hiss continued for the rest of his life strenuously to protest his innocence, going so far as to file a petition of coram nobis, in which he presented his defense team's documented, putatively scientific evidence indicating that the typewriter used to convict him had been fabricated, that is, remanufactured, and that the so-called Baltimore Documents, papers which Chambers claimed that Hiss or his wife Priscilla had typed, were forgeries. At the time, few people suspected that remanufacturing of typewriters was possible, and an FBI agent testified at the Hiss trial that it was impossible. In fact, during WWII J. Edgar Hoover arranged for his own FBI agents to be trained at a British intelligence base called Camp X 100 miles east of Toronto, where one of the specialties was the remanufacture of typewriters and document forgery.
Former White House counsel John Dean, alleged in his memoir Blind Ambition that the typewriter had been forged. Dean asserted that he was informed that Nixon at one point in his Presidency told Charles Colson, "The typewriters are always the key. We built one (i.e., a legal case) in the Hiss case." Colson denied ever having such a conversation with Nixon, and it has never been found in Nixon's tapes.[4]
Evidence of Judicial Misconduct
As a result of a Freedom of Information Act suit by Hiss, it was revealed in 1975 that:
An FBI agent knowingly committed perjury at the Hiss trial, testifying it was impossible to forge a document by typewriter,
The FBI knew that the typewriter introduced as evidence at the trial could not have been the Hiss typewriter, but withheld this information from Hiss, and
The FBI had an informer, Horace W. Schmahl, a private detective who was hired by the Hiss defense team, who reported on the Hiss defense strategy to the government.
Other information which had been withheld from Hiss and his lawyers included the FBI's knowledge of Chambers' homosexuality and the intensive FBI surveillance of Hiss, which included phone taps and mail openings, none of which showed any indication that Hiss was a spy or a Communist.
As for the "Pumpkin Papers," the five rolls of microfilm that Nixon had described as evidence of the "most serious series of treasonable activities … in the history of America," the FOIA releases showed one roll of microfilm was completely blank, and information on two rolls of microfilm were largely not only unclassified but were about topics such as life rafts and fire extinguishers, information which was easily obtainable at any time from the open shelves at the Bureau of Standards.
After the FOIA disclosures, Hiss was readmitted to the bar in Massachusetts in 1975, without the usual admission of guilt or expression of remorse, which is usually required when a disbarred lawyer is readmitted. The Supreme Court, which by this time contained several Nixon appointments, including Chief Justice Warren Burger, refused to nullify the Hiss perjury conviction, thus preventing the exoneration Hiss had sought.
The Soviet Archives
After the end of the Cold war and subsequent dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Alger Hiss petitioned General Dimitry Antonovich Volkogonov, who had become President Yeltsin's military advisor and the overseer of all the Soviet intelligence archives, to request the release of any Soviet files on the Hiss case. Interestingly, both former President Richard M. Nixon and the director of his presidential library, John H. Taylor, wrote a similar letter, though the actual contents of that writing are not publicly available.
Russian archivists and researchers responded by reviewing their files, and in the fall of 1992 reported back that they had found no evidence that Alger Hiss had ever been a member of a Soviet agency. They found no proof that Hiss was part of the Communist Party USA; and, similarly, that they had found no evidence that he had ever been an agent for the KGB, for the GRU (Soviet military intelligence), or for any other intelligence agency of the Soviet Union.
Many conservatives and other Hiss detractors were shocked, and quickly questioned Volkogonov's analysis. Though Volkogonov admitted that it was possible some evidence had been lost or destroyed, he ultimately stood by his assessment. General-Lieutenant Vitaly Pavlov, who ran Soviet intelligence work in North America in the late 1930s and early 1940s, also corrobated Volkogonov in his memoirs, stating that Hiss never worked for the USSR as one of his agents.[11] Of course, it is understood that Soviet Communists had an interest in denying someone was their spy.
I've read articles by Paul Craig Roberts and Pat Buchanan reposted and republished by Truthout. does that make them liberal Democrats too, you idiot?
ReplyDeleteNo, but Tanenhaus is. That's why that article was taking issue with how the Democrats were marginalizing Dean and his supporters.
HYPATIA - There is an argument you are continuously ignoring even though it was made many times. It is this - many of the people targeted by the HUAC were people who had connections with the Communist party or other communist front groups 20 years earlier, in the 1930s, when - as it was pointed out - there were understandable and non-malignant reasons for doubting the wisdom of capitalism and when people were searching for alternatives.
ReplyDeleteMany of them renounced that association, certainly years and years before the real evil of Stalin was known, and lived patriotric and law-abiding lives, sometimes for decades. Yet their careers were ruined and they were stigmatized as disloyal because of these distant, clearly irrelevant actions.
I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that loyalty to Josef Stalin was dangerous and deranged. And there simply were people even in the 1950s who maintained that loyalty to their great discredit (whether there are varying degress of participation, whether one should have the right in the U.S. to espouse communism, etc. are all separate questions). But the evil of McCarthyism wasn't that it targeted Stalinists, but that so many people targeted were not Stalinists at all.
ZACK - I just saw Good Night, Good Luck - without endorsing the historical accuracy of it, or even the fairness of how the argument was presented, it is an inspiring film just in the narrow sense of the power of those who take risks to battle entrenched injustices for only one reason - because they are so moved by the magnitude of the injustices that they almost have no choice but to confront them, regardless of the costs.
As for this: Though Volkogonov admitted that it was possible some evidence had been lost or destroyed, he ultimately stood by his assessment.
ReplyDeleteActually, no he didn't. He said he had been pressured by Hiss's lawyer, and wanted to say something to please an old man like Hiss, unaware of how shocking his statement would be in the U.S. He then said he'd spent maybe two days casually perusing KGB (not GRU) archives, and really had no idea what evidence might exist in the GRU archives.
As he later clarified, according to the NYT:
"I was not properly understood...the Ministry of Defense also has an intelligence service [GRU -- whom Hiss spied for, not the KGB - ed Hypatia] which is totally different...I only looked through what the KGB had." He acknowledged that his motive was "primarily humanitarian...Hiss wrote that he was 88 and would like to die peacefully...His attorney, Lowenthal, pushed me hard to say things of which I was not fully convinced."
Really, go search what real historians say about these things at this historians' list at HOAC I linked to. The incredible number of separate individuals who would all have to -- independently -- have been telling the same lies for Hiss to be innocent, itself defies belief. Chambers was not the only former spy to identify Hiss as a colleague, so did Hede Massing, and her claims are verified in various Soviet bloc documents describing how she and Hiss both attempted to recruit the same person -- Noel Field -- for their different cells.
In 2000 a Czechoslovakian security police report from the '55 surfaced, that reflects what Massing had testified to at Hiss's trial:
[CPUSA member] Noel Field said that he was a friend of Hiss at the time he worked at the State Department and that Hiss worked for the USSR as a spy. He knows it, allegedly, from a discussion with him in which Hiss tried to convince him to work with him. Of course, at the time Noel Field was already working for Soviet Intelligence through the Massings. Massing, who later turned traitor [to the USSR - ed., Hypatia] testified about Hiss in front of the Committee on un-American activities..
Add in the documents Chambers had, typed on Hiss's own typewriter in the same type that matches Hiss family personal correspondence, and it doesn't matter what outré theories of FBI "faking the typewriter" exist. The same typewrite typed Hiss family correspondence and copies of purloined State Dept. data given to Chambers by...someone. No reasonable person any longer refuses to see that the evidence against Hiss is overwhelming, or the many different and bizarre independent conspiracies that would have to be operating to frame him if he were not.
Glenn writes: There is an argument you are continuously ignoring even though it was made many times. It is this - many of the people targeted by the HUAC were people who had connections with the Communist party or other communist front groups 20 years earlier, in the 1930s, when - as it was pointed out - there were understandable and non-malignant reasons for doubting the wisdom of capitalism and when people were searching for alternatives.
ReplyDeleteMany of them renounced that association, certainly years and years before the real evil of Stalin was known, and lived patriotric and law-abiding lives, sometimes for decades. Yet their careers were ruined and they were stigmatized as disloyal because of these distant, clearly irrelevant actions.
I don't accept these arguments, for several reasons. First, there were many, many leftwing alternatives to the CPUSA in the 30s. Indeed, the CPUSA infiltrated and tried to destroy them. Second, the "real evil" of Stalinism was known, in the 30s, but the CPUSA and its fellow travelers refused to credit even leftwing sources who reported it. No less a leftwing icon than Emma Goldman said the Soviet Union (which she had endured for several years after being deported there during the Lenin era) was a police state of which she wanted no part. Others wrote in alarm about the purge trials in the 30s, but the CPUSA and fellow-traveling press simply denied that any such thing existed; they said all of those beinbg summarily executed were guilty. People in the Party in the 30s lived in terror of being summoned to Moscow, because that usually meant one was not coming back -- indeed, that sort of summons somewhat midwifed Chambers' defection beginning in '37.
It is utter mythology that in the 30s the horrors of Stalinism were not known. But they were steadfastly denied by the Stalinists and their supporters.
Finally, who are these legions of innocent people supposedly destroyed by HUAC and McCarthy? Really, who are they? We keep hearing they existed, but the examples cited almost always are people who were active Stalinists, like the Hollywood Ten. McCarthy made a fool of himself. He did identify some poor woman who had the misfortune of bearing the same name as some other woman identified as a CPUSA member, but that was cleared up eventually. Who did he DESTROY?
Well, well, well...
ReplyDeleteWest Point Grads Against The War
With a list Laws And Treaties violated by President George W. Bush, Vice-President Richard Cheney, public officials under their authority, and members of the U.S. military under their command.
There is no point in arguing with her about the issue. There is never any point in arguing with people who "believe" in anything. I don't know. I wasn't there, but according to those with more familiarity with these matters, and no political axe to grind, it's pretty much as stated before. Might just as well argue with someone about intelligent design.
Doubleday in 1923 published anarchist Emma Goldman's chilling tale of the brutal reality of the USSR. Many on the communist left simply refused to believe her, or excused the grotesque human rights abuses she reported.
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify, I wasn't there with Chambers or Hiss. I was alive during the 50's and clearly Hypatia was not, so I can attest to the harm done. The question is whether she has ever been a sentient person with a predisposition for thinking objectively. My guess would be no.
ReplyDeleteSomeone who was there...
ReplyDeleteOne of the many voices I listen to...
Seldes on propaganda during World War One
"Of the first war years I will say just this: I made a total fool of myself when I accepted as true the news reports from New York and Europe which by their volume and repetition overwhelmed what little objective intelligence I had...
...there was the Lusitania. All the Allied reports told of a "dastardly" and "heinous" crime against civilians, but the German news bureau said the ship carried munitions. Today the sworn statement of the former Collector of the Port of New York, Dudley Field Malone, gives the exact character and tonnage of these munitions, but in 1915 I played the Allied side. I used all the stories of German atrocities including the Baltimore preacher's "unimpeachable" account of the crucifixion of Canadian soldiers by the enemy. In short, in common with about ninety per cent of the American press, I had become a blind but willing agent of the powerful and finally victorious Allied propaganda machine.
...It was not until December, 1918, when I came into Coblenz with the American Army that I realized how fooled I had been by all those years of poisonous propaganda...
...At that time we considered ourselves the most favored and on our return we found ourselves the most envied of mortals, and the journals which printed our stories boasted of the fact their own representatives had been at the fighting front. I now realize that we were told nothing but buncombe, that we were shown nothing of the realities of the war, that we were, in short, merely part of the great Allied propaganda machine whose purpose was to sustain morale at all costs and help drag unwilling America into the slaughter.
...We all more or less lied about the war."
From "One Man's Newspaper Game," Part 1, Chapter 1, in Freedom of the Press, by George Seldes (Garden City, N.Y.: Garden City Publishing Co., Inc., 1937), p. 31-37. Original Copyright 1935, Bobbs-Merrill Company.
People like Hypatia and Bart never "get it". It's a waste of time to even try. Some just need to be left where they fall.
anon writes: I was alive during the 50's and clearly Hypatia was not, so I can attest to the harm done.
ReplyDeleteI was born in 1956. In any event, I never denied that Joseph McCarthy was a harmful force in American politics; rather, I have insisted he was.
But who are these legions of people, none of whom were Stalinists, that he and others supposedly "destroyed?" I'm well familiar with many voices who have most prominently made that claim, and the "martyrs" they have identified are people like Hiss, the Rosenbergs, Robert Oppenheiner (who lost his security clearance, which many leftists thought was a horrible crime), or Harry Dexter White. (White, FDR's Asst Sec'y of the Treasury, died of a heart attack 3 days after answering to HUAC regarding Chambers' claim that he had been a non-CPUSA fellow-traveler, who met with GRU agents and passed secrets to them. The NYT editorialized angrily that the "lies" had killed White. White was guilty, as even his left-of-center, sympathetic biographer, Bruce Craig, now concedes in light of what various archives yielded in the last decade.)
So, who are the innocent hordes?
To stevekat's curiosity of General Batiste's statement: "I think we need accountability for what happened five years ago. I think all that has to be resolved before we can move forward and finish what we started."
ReplyDeleteI understand it as he is referring to the whole military operation post-911 beginning with Afghanistan.
anon writes:People like Hypatia and Bart never "get it". It's a waste of time to even try. Some just need to be left where they fall.
ReplyDeleteYes, well, I am dead set on not giving into the phenomenon accurately described over at Orwell Today:
Long ago, Senator Joseph McCarthy did American communists the enormous favour of setting himself up as their enemy. He stamped anti-communism with his personality (which on his very best days was unappetizing) and it has never freed itself from his smarmy embrace. When a young reader of today encounters an anti-communist opinion uttered in 1950 or 1960, the word "McCarthy" suddenly appears before the reader's eyes and the opinion is immediately discounted. Because of McCarthy, passionate anti-communism came to be considered proof of embarrassing bad taste. People considered it small-minded, nasty and provincial, like McCarthy himself. This attitude has never really changed.
And indeed it hasn't. But the far worse crimes than those of Joseph McCarthy, were committed by the Stalinists and their Master; the very people those who have most shrilly screamed about McCarthyism do so in order to shield and defend, in most instances, actual Stalinists. I won't accept that, because there is blood on the hands of these people, and it is an injustice to keep a day of moral accounting for that from occurring. All because one is so cravenly frightened of being tarred as a McCarthyite, conspiracy theorist... or akin to Bart the troll.
As eminent American historian and former Stalinist, Eugene Genovese, wrote some years ago in the leftwing journal Dissent:
In a noble effort to liberate the human race from violence and oppression, we broke all records for mass slaughter ... we have a disquieting number of corpses to account for."
Exactly so. And if Dalton Trumbo had to use a pseudonym to continue to write screenplays, well boo-fucking-hoo. His Master -- as was known -- was putting millions into Gulags or bullets in the backs of their heads.
As I pointed out in response to Glenn's past two posts on the "generals' attempted coup," this is largely an inter-service and generational debate over technology vs. boots on the ground which these Army and Marine generals lost.
ReplyDeleteThe Air Force and the younger Army field officers are beginning to chime-in in support of the changes toward technology instituted by Rumsfeld.
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/013769.php
Folks, not everything in the world revolves around Mr. Bush or party politics.
Re Hypatia's remark:
ReplyDeleteRobert Oppenheiner (who lost his security clearance, which many leftists thought was a horrible crime)
Well, count me in that category. I think it was a terrible injustice that a man who did such a tremendous service for his country would be treated in this manner. Even Teller later regretted his testimony that resulted in Oppenheimer losing his clearance.
I have done a lot of reading on Oppenheimer and the Manhattan project and there is little doubt in my mind that Oppenheimer was a great patriot in spite of his previous associations with Communists.
Eyes Wide Open said:
ReplyDelete"Gris lobo, that was a very harrowing post you wrote. It saddens me you had to go through such a horrible experience."
No need to be saddened. I did it by choice and mentally I did it for all the right reasons. The leaders at the time, just as the ones now are, were the ones that corrupted the process.
We weren't that far away in years from saving the world in WWII and in stopping the communist invasion of South Korea. The theory at the time was that if South Viet Nam fell that the rest of southeast Asia would go with it. The domino theory if you want to look it up sometime.
I am not against war when it is truly justified. Self defense or the real defense of a freind that asks for our help. I supported going into Afghanistan but only to the point of actually hunting down Bin Laden and either killing him or bring him to justice for killing 3,000 Americans on 9/11.
Where I strongly differ with the political leadership is in invading a sovereign nation that has done us no harm and effecting a regime change for idealism and greed.
An artillery commander whose name I don't remember said it best "There is no glory in war, only blood, and pain, and death."
And that is why war should always always be the means of last resort.
badMoonRising writes: I have done a lot of reading on Oppenheimer and the Manhattan project and there is little doubt in my mind that Oppenheimer was a great patriot in spite of his previous associations with Communists.
ReplyDeleteRobert Oppneheimer was a CPUSA member during his involvement in the Manhattan Project, and was asked to spy for the KGB. It is unknown why he does not appear to have actually done so; best guesses are that it may have been determined that it was too risky. But it is known that he did not report his having been approached by the KGB to spy to United States authorites. He also had to know that other of his Communist colleagues had also been approached, and looked the other way as vast amounts of atomic spy data were shipped to Joseph Stalin. Historian John Earl Haynes, who has examined the Soviet documents pertaining to Oppneheimer, describes Oppenheimer's attitude toward MP spying as "indifferent."
No member of the CPUSA should have ever served in any sensitive position. If asked, they spied, unless and until it became too risky to do so. Their allegiance was to Stalin.
Removing Oppenheimer's security clearance was as justified as it was actually too little, too late. To call him a patriot is to turn the word on its head.
Nuf Said writes: You are measuring the amount of human suffering that occurred under Stalin and comparing it to the damage from McCarthy's hearings. I would agree that essentially no real damage was done by the hearings in those terms. I think this is your point.
ReplyDeleteMy point is more than that.
Truth matters. It matters when Bush or his apologists decline to engage in it, and it matters about history as well.
Sidney Hook, a life-long atheist, socialist and anti-Stalinist, said of the so-called reign of McCarthyism terror: "all the great organs of public opinion ... were hostile to McCarthy; all the Luce [Henry Luce was fiercely anti-Communist ed -Hypatia] magazines with the fabulous circulation damned him for his demagogy.... To speak of a reign of terror, or a climate of fear, is to do the sort of thing which has come to be associated with McCarthy's name."
Irving Howe, leftist editor of the left-wing journal Dissent wrote:
It often seemed as if people talked about nothing else. At political gatherings, cocktail parties, academic sessions--McCarthyism, McCarthyism, until one grew sick of it. Yet the very prevalence of talk, ineffectual as it might be, undercut Bertrand Russell's charge that in the early fifties the United States was "subject to a reign of terror" .... In a reign of terror people turn silent, fear a knock on the door at four in the morning, flee in all directions; but they do not, because they cannot, talk endlessly in public about the outrage of terror...
When we printed violent denunciations of McCarthy in Dissent during these years, nothing happened to us. Perhaps we weren't important enough to bother with, but others were saying ... much the same things. Later on, as "revisionist" historians turned to the McCarthy period, the Dissent group won praise for its stand against McCarthyism, but that has always struck me as rather silly. We had no sense we were taking any great risks in attacking McCarthy.
I have not seen Good Night and Good Luck. But I am quite disposed to believe Jack Shafer's very critical review of it over at Slate:
If Jesus Christ no longer satisfies your desire to worship a man as god, I suggest you buy a ticket for Good Night, and Good Luck, the new movie about legendary CBS News broadcaster Edward R. Murrow. Good Night, and Good Luck's Murrow burns cigarettes like altar incense. He speaks in a resonant, godly rumble. And he plods through the greatest story ever told about the hunting of communist hunter Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy like a man carrying all the world's sins.
Shafer eviscerates the history as presented in the film, and quotes a piece in The Weekly Standard; regardless of source, I know this to be true:
By the time the [March 9, 1954] show aired, a mutiny was underway on his own subcommittee to relieve McCarthy as chairman. Prominent Republicans had joined Democrats in publicly denouncing him, even, gingerly, his former comrade Vice President Richard Nixon. In the mainstream press, anti-McCarthy feeling was endemic. Among those routinely critical were Time magazine and Col. Robert McCormick's Chicago Tribune. If Col. McCormick and Henry Luce were denouncing a right-wing icon, you could feel pretty safe in firing away.
Joseph McCarthy did not introduce a reign of terror in the United States. He was widely repudiated by even some of the most prominent conservatives and anti-Communists, and Ed Murrow risked NOTHING in joining the chorus of others shining a negative spotlight on Joseph McCarthy.
Truth matters. As fiction, Good night and Good Luck, and the myth of the McCarthy reign of terror, might make a nice paradigm for the prevailing GOP attacks on the patriotism and good faith of all critics, but that paradigm is not in any actual sense true.
"Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteanon writes:People like Hypatia and Bart never "get it". It's a waste of time to even try. Some just need to be left where they fall.
Yes, well, I am dead set on not giving into the phenomenon accurately described over at Orwell Today:
You are a wingnut! That site, Orwell today, is almost as funny as this one! I suggest you actually read Orwell, start with Politics and the English Language and Shooting an Elephant, and then read about him. It won't help you but it will keep you from posting drivel here and other places for awhile.
Re: Hypatia's response to my post on Robert Oppenheimer:
ReplyDeleteRobert Oppneheimer was a CPUSA member during his involvement in the Manhattan Project, and was asked to spy for the KGB.
As I stated earlier, I have read extensively on Oppenheimer and the Manhattan project and I have never before heard this claim even asserted. To state it as fact is ridiculous.
and was asked to spy for the KGB. It is unknown why he does not appear to have actually done so
Hypatia, we have a little logical contradiction here. Earlier you stated several times that CPUSA members robotically followed their orders without question. How could robot Oppenheimer not carried out his orders? Occam's razor requires us to at least raise the question: "Maybe he wasn't really a member of the CPUSA".
Their allegiance was to Stalin.
I assume you include Oppenheimer in this statement. If you really believe Oppenheimer's allegiance was to Stalin, I'm afraid anything I, or anyone else, says is pointless. Your obsession is too far gone.
Removing Oppenheimer's security clearance was as justified as it was actually too little, too late.
Have you considered the consequences of your statement? Most scientists at Los Alamos (as well as Leslie Groves) believed that it was Oppenheimer's unique talents that kept the scientists focused on the project and their egos in check (why else did Army Intelligence let him remain on the project in spite of their suspicions?). Without him, the project would likely not have been completed; certainly not on the schedule it was completed on.
To call him a patriot is to turn the word on its head.
Okay, here is where the rubber meets the road. Hypatia, I don't know you other than on this blog and as a result I am not familiar with your accomplishments. But it's my guess that Oppenheimer's contributions to this nation, all factors included, are far greater than your own. I don't say this to diminish you. But it does rankle me to think how easily you sit behind your keyboard and diminish the contributions of a man who, while not perfect, did a great service to his country and was rewarded with humiliation. How easily you tar and feather him and many others because you're well read and think you know exactly how things really were more than 50 years ago.
Frankly your writing, with its smugness and absolutes, belies someone who has a need to believe certain things, not someone whose mind is open to critical inquiry. Just my opinion, of course.
More from Jackie Jura at Orwell Today:
ReplyDeleteLike most people in America and elsewhere in the English speaking world I've heard the refrain "bye, bye Miss American pie" wailing into my eardrums a thousand times and never had a clue what its singer was talking about, nor, frankly, did I give a dam, having never heard of Don McLean before or after his more or less one-hit wonder.
But today I got a clue as to its meaning after reading a news story about Asian and Indian immigration into the United States that contained the following sentence: "The Indian American Leadership Initiative is an organization that seeks to entice more Indian Americans into politics, the 'last slice of the American pie'."
As soon as I read that sentence the song "American Pie" jumped into my head and it occurred to me that maybe what the song was about was the take-over of America by foreign elements. Upon finding and reading the lyrics my suspicion was more than confirmed.
The lyrics appear to be about a satanic communist take-over of America after a nuclear explosion has destroyed the ecosystem.
I rest my case. Is Red Dawn your favorite movie too, Hypatia?
For real students of Orwell, you are aware of the quote often attributed to him, restated by the fictional Col. Nathan Jessup in the play A Few Good Men, written by arch liberal, Alan Sorkin, and the film produced by arch liberal Rob Reiner, (Meathead to the rest of us). I just love the irony there, with wingnuts always referring to this as something Orwell said. Almost as funny as the actual origin of the term, "useful idiots".
Rough Men
Did George Orwell ever say: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?" Or: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us?"
Not exactly. But he did make comments that were along similar lines. In his essay on Rudyard Kipling (1942), Orwell wrote: "[Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them." (Thanks to Keith Ammann for this). And in his 'Notes on Nationalism' (1945) he wrote: "Those who "abjure" violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." (Thanks to Parbety). Where the rough men crept in is anyone's guess.
Honestly, Hypatia, I could see an avowed anti-communist like yourself making the argument that Orwell Today is actually a communist front in due course.
Someone, anyone, please explain how Saddam's corruption of the UN oil-for-food program has any relevance whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteIs it the government corruption that made this a just war?
Does this mean we will begin the conquest of Texas in ten days, as per the severe and unrestrained Enron corruption? And then all the rest of the US, for the deeply-rooted corruption at the highest levels of our government as epitomized by Abramof?
Surely we can at the very least liquidate those American companies that were complicit in the oil for food program corruption. Right? Come on now, it's awfully quiet out there - does not even a single wingnut believe we should smite any corporation that dealt with Saddam illegally?
If corruption is grounds for military conquest, then look out Africa, because if you want to see some corruption - holy 'ruption, Batman! - there are some seriously corrupt regimes in Africa, many of which are not perched atop our oil.
Frankly, I could give a rat's ass about some two-it dictator skimming an oil for food program to heighten the opulence of his palaces. Clearly he was not building secret weapons that could make giant mushrooms appear over US cities - er, I mean "mushroom clouds".
Really, I don't believe the wingnutty right has the slightest inkling of the immense technical expertise and industrial base required to develop a nuke, let alone produce them in vast quantities. And you can bet your ass that if Iraq or Iran were to build ten nukes, they would not give them up to some nutjob terrorist holed up in his "Terror-Cave" planning the apocalypse on his 500 MB HD laptop. The nuke marketplace is strictly a state affair, for the simple reason that Saddam or whoever cannot be sure that the nuke they supply to Al Qaeda will not end up going off in Baghdad or Tehran.
My apologies about the wiki link to useful idiots. The useful idiots, like hypatia and bart have gotten into it again and filled it with crap. Anyone can edit (deface, vandalize) a wiki entry. Lenin never said it. It was coined by the anti-communists instead. I try to keep crap out of wiki, along with many others, but it never stops with these loons. Always read the history and discussion tabs at Wiki.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSomeone, anyone, please explain how Saddam's corruption of the UN oil-for-food program has any relevance whatsoever. Is it the government corruption that made this a just war?
1) Saddam agreed to abide by sanctions as the price of the original ceasefire, which allowed his fascist regime another decade in power. This violation of the ceasefire (not to mention dozens of others) placed Iraq in a state of war with the Coalition again.
2) Kerry and the anti-war crowd claimed that the US could not legitimately go to war without passing a "world test" where our the UN and our "traditional allies" like France, Germany and Russia must first give their permission. The fact that Saddam was paying off the UN and these nations with oil for food money while starving his own people makes a mockery of Kerry's test.
Honestly, Hypatia, I could see an avowed anti-communist like yourself making the argument that Orwell Today is actually a communist front in due course.
ReplyDeleteThat I recall, I've never been to that site before. The google search terms I entered for the quotes I was looking for came up first as his site. It is generally poor form not to link to the site where one got the information.
Now that that is settled, what substantive response -- as oposed to ridicule and admonitions to read various works by Orwell (which I've done) -- do you have to offer?
None, I'll bet. The notion that the McCarthy era was some sort of reign of terror destroying legions of innocent people is an utter and total myth, as silly as it is false. He was a buffoon, and was recognized and condemned as such by some of the most anti-Communist voices in and out of govt.
Hypatia, maybe you should calm down? Many of your "facts" are disputable to say the least. One that has already been explored is that Oppenheimer was a CPUSA member during the war. Many people would like to know about this - there's been a crop of biographies about him recently, with no such indication.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, you repeatedly assert that Sidney Hook was never a Stalinist/Communist. He certainly was: for both of these people why not take a look at Wikipedia for a reality check?
BadMoonRising asks:I assume you include Oppenheimer in this statement. If you really believe Oppenheimer's allegiance was to Stalin, I'm afraid anything I, or anyone else, says is pointless. Your obsession is too far gone.
ReplyDeleteI do so include him. The documentary evidence regarding the KGB's efforts to recruit Oppenheimer do not answer the question as to why he did not actually spy; I do not argue for more than the evidence of which I am aware will support. What is known is that sometimes people convinced the KGB/GRU that it was too risky.
It was not a symptom of "McCarthyite Terror" to deny a CPUSA member a security clearance; it was common sense.
Harvey Klehr is an anti-Communist but reasonable historian (who, among other things, has spanked Ann Coulter for calling all liberals traitors), and he reviews a recent book about Oppneheimer thus:
Turning policy disputes into tests of loyalty is fraught with danger. Unfortunately for Oppenheimer, his associations during the 1930s, and postwar revelations about the extent of Soviet espionage, made the suspicions about him more than paranoia. When his own admitted lies about the Chevalier affair were added to convincing evidence that he had been a member of the Communist party, he was doomed. That some of those who brought him down were unattractive men with sordid motives does not erase the fact that a hugely talented man who had made major contributions to American security was destroyed because of a series of disastrous political choices he had once made, and then tried to obscure.
On the other hand, you repeatedly assert that Sidney Hook was never a Stalinist/Communist.
ReplyDeleteNo, I said Hook was not a Stalinist, and he wasn't; if the dubious wiki says otherwise, it is wrong. Hook was a socialist.
When Whittaker Chambers left the CPUSA and his spying endeavors, he tried to go through Hook to meet John Dewey and get some support and protection from leftist non-Stalinists. Hook tried to arrange a meeting with Dewey, but the effort failed; Dewey didn't trust he wasn't being set up by the CPUSA. Dewey, Hook and many others on the left were fully aware in the 30s how vile Stalin was.
Have to revise my statement about Oppenheimer. Apparently Gregg Herken concluded he was "a member of a closed unit of the Communist Party's professional section", on evidence that I, like the reviewer Daniel Kevles, find unconvincing. Here is an exchange between Herken and Kevles. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17008
ReplyDeleteHarvey Klehr?
ReplyDelete"Harvey Klehr is an anti-Communist but reasonable historian"
Oh! Please stop! You are killing us...
Hypatia, are you sure you are not a member of the international communist conspiracy? Or some kind of fellow traveler? After all, you are defending a known ex-communist. There is no doubt at all that Hook was a Stalinist in the 20s, and as late as 1932 he supported the communist candidate William Z. Foster. Take a look at http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=86&sortorder=issue a link from Wikipedia. It really is well known, even a nonexpert like me knew it - I was just using Wiki as a reality check myself.
ReplyDeleteHarvey Klehr. You can get his books here cheap. If you wait awhile, I'm sure they will be free, like all the other useless crap peddled on Frontpage magazine.
ReplyDeleteAn actual historian reviews this nonsense.
Hypatia, you're making my case for me. The short version of my case is that your "absolutest" arguments are over the top. And you provide a perfect example:
ReplyDeleteYou've clearly stated that you believe Oppenheimer's allegiance was to Stalin. And then you provide this as evidence:
That some of those who brought him down were unattractive men with sordid motives does not erase the fact that a hugely talented man who had made major contributions to American security was destroyed because of a series of disastrous political choices he had once made, and then tried to obscure.
My God, read the quote. The fact that he made some bad choices in the past and then tried to hide it hardly makes the case that his allegiance was to Stalin. Can't you see this?
This is a perfect example of what Glenn pointed out to you awhile back and you refuse to see it. Why, we all wonder?
My original recollection was from Bertrand Russell's autobiography, where as I recall, Bertie, being mildly annoyed by some mild redbaiting from Hook, points out that when they had met in the 20s Hook was a Stalinist who had tried to convert him.
ReplyDeleteMy God, read the quote. The fact that he made some bad choices in the past and then tried to hide it hardly makes the case that his allegiance was to Stalin. Can't you see this?
ReplyDeleteThis is a perfect example of what Glenn pointed out to you awhile back and you refuse to see it. Why, we all wonder?
Because, the worry was that by lying, he was still hiding his affiliation. CPUSA members allegiance was to Stalin; it was axiomatic.
anon writes: An actual historian reviews this nonsense.
ReplyDeleteI've never heard of that person, and I am extremely familiar with historians of the Cold War, left, right and center. Klehr is widely respected, and is prominently mentioned in much of the literature, yet, I've never seen a citation I recall to to that other.
Who is that person and what work have they done? Did s/he, like Klehr, actually examine the Soviet archives, with a facility in the Russian language? Klehr was chosen for that mission for his superior language and other skills, on a meritocratic measure, you know. Does Emory Universitry have other not-actual historians on its faculty?
You simply do not like Klehr's conclusions and the facts he unearthed. So you dismiss him as not an "actual historian." That is poor form.
Klehr could be wrong, but given his background and training, it is unlikely an obscure cite from the Internet would show that.
Communazi writes:There is no doubt at all that Hook was a Stalinist in the 20s, and as late as 1932 he supported the communist candidate William Z. Foster. Take a look at
ReplyDeleteYeah, I looked at your site. It says this, my emphasis:
Hook in all fairness did turn later to a comprehensive attack on Stalinist murders, slave labor, and state-created famine. Given this, one would naturally expect Hook always to oppose Stalin root and branch. On the whole he did, but not when doing so would interfere with a sacred cause--America's participation in World War II.
Your source is a right-wing isolationist who is unhappy that Hook supported WWII. That makes him a "Stalinist."
He wasn't. And he knew there was no McCarthy "reign of terror" in the U.S.
Hypatia’s horrible hysterical transmogrification into a rabid righteous rigid anti-communist channeling David Horowitz is beyond belief.
ReplyDeleteAnyone that knows the first thing about Labor History in the U.S. knows very well just how nonsensical her rants have become. Communists played a very important role in organizing for trade unions in the 1930s.
They were reacting to the Depression and their poverty – they were not taking orders from Stalin. The idea that a dictator across the ocean was in complete control of the minds of so many Americans is preposterous.
Take a look at the Americans in these photos.
Hypatia insists that all of these Americans are mindless robots incapable of rational thought and their every action, every word they utter, is dictated by Stalin thousands of miles away. And all of these Americans were well aware of Stalins’ brutal murder of thousands – and totally approve! Scum all of them!
Arthur Miller’s plays like Death of Salesman were written to appease his “master” Stalin. Miller – a robot, was just taking orders from the party. He couldn’t think for himself.
But that’s not enough. Hypatia insults and smears everyone one of us who dare to disagree with her on this subject – including Glenn Greenwald who has been duped by communist-supporting left-wing revisionists historians.
And on and on and on, as Hypatia embarrasses herself repeatedly, exposing herself for a ideologue no different than the despicable Horowitz on this subject.
For shame.
From Bart at 11:04AM:
ReplyDelete"Having conceded that the US has achieved all of its objectives in Iraq and frustrated all of the enemy objectives, you go back to the liberal whine that the enemy is conducting terrorism."
The 'objective' when this disaster began was (supposedly) to terminate Iraq's WMD programs; investigations since then have pretty much confirmed this was accomplished...back during the Clinton Administration.
Since then, as much to justify the invasion to the public as to satisfy the messianic impulses of both the Administration and its basest supporters, the mission has been changed (never officially, of course) to establishing a western-style liberal democracy.
Two elections (both subject to some controversy) and a poorly-written constitution later, Iraq shows no more sign of stability than a Mexican Jumping Bean during a 10.5 Richter Scale earthquake. Sh'ia, Sunni, and Kurd militias are busy targeting each other as much as the US troops stationed there, the Iraqi Parliament has not yet met or proved able to pass any manner of law respected by all sides, and operational Iraqi security forces (both police and military) exist only on paper. Terrorism is a daily fact of life for the average Iraqi, and American troops are no more able to protect them than they are themselves.
Gods save us from achieving such "objectives" in the future.
Bart continues:
"Terrorism is a means, not an end unto itself, and that means has failed to accomplish a single end for the enemy."
A half-accurate insight; 'terrorism' per se is a tactic used to undermine the stability of a country's security by undermining the populace's trust and support in the government should it prove unable to protect them.
The Iraqi government proves unable to protect its citizens or reign in the militias ruling the countryside, never mind control or minimized the anti-occupation insurgency. The country's infrastructure has yet to be rebuilt to even pre-invasion standards. The economy is close to nonexistent.
From this end, I'd say the terrorists have hit on a winning strategy here.
Bard continues:
"Wilson (and the Clinton Administration) didn't "face down" Hussein at any time. Hussein violated nearly every provision of the Ceasefire without penalty during that period."
In 1990, Wilson publically confronted Hussein at a press conference over a note the latter had sent to foreign embassies threatening to execute anyone, including diplomats, who sheltered Iraqi citizens from his agents; Wilson held a press conference decrying the note, wearing a homemade noose around his neck. Hussein immediately and publically apologized for the note.
Hussein's subsequent violations of all Ceasefire provisions are beside the point.
Additionally, Wilson's report on his investigation are a matter of public record, as are the circumstances under which he was asked to undertake the trip. I'll let the record of facts speak for themselves.
Bart continues:
"The only option which has worked against al Qaeda is sending in ground troops, deposing the government which shelter the terrorists and killing the terrorists."
Given this was only attempted in Afghanistan, and the job was left half-done, I wouldn't be quick to hang my hat on this approach.
The invasion of Iraq, as has been repeatedly pointed out here and elsewhere, had *nothing* to do with either Al Qaeda or minimizing it as a threat to the United States.
"This was not even suggested as an option by Clarke. There is no reason to believe that anything suggested by Clarke would have either prevented 9/11 or the prior attacks by al Qaeda, nor taken down al Qaeda."
What Clarke was advising and was ready to impliment was (a) the arrest or liquidation of Bin Laden and his circle, (b) pressure governments to deny sanctuary to Al Qaeda operatives, and (c) engage in a comprehensive PR campaign to counter the influence of Wahabbism and various off-shoots of mainline Islam, thereby reducing the network's main recruiting tool.
Not as flashy or macho as, say, invading another country and reducing it to rubble. But stands a better chance of success in the long-run.
And yes, these measures likely wouldn't have prevented 9/11 (which was nearly a decade in planning and implementation), nor are there any guarantees it would have prevented attacks since them, but I daresay a new Crusade (particularly cast in the sort of pseudo-religious overtones this Administration is wont to use) hasn't proved much more than an other recruiting tool for Bin Laden and his ilk.
So, again, we're left with choosing to listen to either a couple of competent, clear-headed former careerists who know what they're talking about...versus the crew identified from yesterday (who have yet to get a single thing right either fact-wise or in implementation).
Sadly, its the latter who are in power right now, much to the shame and detriment of our country.
What did Bush actually write before he issued that letter of "support" for Rummy? Here's what the first version might have looked like. . .
ReplyDeleteSummary: The truth, "Rummy is my lapdog and doing a heck of a job!"
Illustrated, work safe, sure to get the attention of the RNC: [ For entertainment only ]
Ooops, put the wrong link
ReplyDeleteThe correct link
But that’s not enough. Hypatia insults and smears everyone one of us who dare to disagree with her on this subject – including Glenn Greenwald who has been duped by communist-supporting left-wing revisionists historians.
ReplyDeleteGlenn is ignorant in this area of history. Were he not, I'd be utterly surprised if his pronouncements displeased me. Smart as he is, I just happen to be especially well educated in the area.
But why is the discussion revolving around Glenn's opinion? Is he your god?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHypatia’s horrible hysterical transmogrification into a rabid righteous rigid anti-communist channeling David Horowitz is beyond belief.
Precisely why she should be ignored. I have a sneaking suspicion she may actually be Jackie Jura.
This, in any case, had me rolling on the floor.
"I just happen to be especially well educated in the area."
Does this make your head explode, Hypatia? It should.
"Private ownership is the cure for all problems, despite the historical record of privately owned states such as Nazi Germany, Czarist and Stalinist Russia, and Maoist China.
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteHave you met John J. Ray? You'll like him! And this complete retard. They both have Ph.Ds like Victor David Hanson and not a functioning brain between them.
How could Stalin have been a "communist" when Stalinist Russia was a privately owned state? Same question for Maoist China. Take your time...
ReplyDeleteBut why is the discussion revolving around Glenn's opinion?
ReplyDeleteThat’s because you chose to focus on three words “including Glenn Greenwald” – instead of the Labor history, the links, the evidence, the arguments presented.
That comment wasn’t about Glenn, and you know it, it was about your obsessions, your distortions, your willful ignorance of history .
You choose not to respond to those two links which provide powerful evidence refuting your arguments.. Why is that?
Your focus on those three words in a feeble effort to ignore the entire rest of the content of that comment is not a response, it’s an intellectual escape.
Please provide some evidence that all of unionists and the groups cited in those links were Stalin’s stooges. Read just a little Labor history, Hypatia. It doesn’t fit in at all with your increasingly silly screeds.
Take a look at all those “despicable Stalinists” in those photos, Hypatia. That is the face of America – it’s the face of people in the depression. They are not mindless robots, and you insult this country and the intelligence of everyone on this blog by your belligerent obsessions.
The fear of everything not capitalism is necessary. It's what keeps the wealth in the hands of the 1% and the rest of the world starving or barely subsisting.
ReplyDeleteDavid Horroshitz:
ReplyDeleteControversy and criticism
Chip Berlet, an author who tracks potentially dangerous right-wing ideologues, identified Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 "right-wing foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable." Berlet's article, "Into the Mainstream" was published in 2003 by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). [6] Berlet cited Horowitz for rejecting the idea that some African Americans "could be the victims of lingering racism."
In reply, Horowitz wrote an open letter to Morris Dees, president of the SPLC, which urged Dees to remove the article from the law center's website, alleging that it was "so tendentious, so filled with transparent misrepresentations and smears that if you continue to post the report you will create for your Southern Poverty Law Center a well-earned reputation as a hate group itself." [7] Dees refused, and in response, Horowitz has continue to blog his differences with Dees and the law center on his web pages.
The communist Progressive Labor Party has targeted Horowitz as a scientific racist and a proto-fascist. In an April 25, 2001 issue of its bilingual newspaper, Challenge-Desafio, it said,
PLP students and friends from Boston University (BU), Harvard and MIT and Boston area workers demonstrated today outside the lecture at BU by fascist journalist David Horowitz to protest his racist ad in college newspapers around the country. Horowitz angered thousands of students with his ad entitled, "10 Reasons Why Reparations for Slavery is a Bad Idea — And Racist Too!" He claims that black people should be "thankful" for what the U.S. has "given" them; that black poverty is "the result of failures of individual character rather than...of racial discrimination and a slave system"; and that "there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians – Englishmen and Americans – created one." (!) He uses the "reparations debate" as a cover for his racist lies. ... We worked for a mass protest against Horowitz at BU, raising the idea with members of Students Together Against Racism, and Unite, a progressive coalition of BU student groups. Their leaders said students should peacefully question Horowitz’s views. PLP was the only group at BU to publicly protest Horowitz.
Horrorshitz has always been a panderer and a pimp. If the money was on the left today, that's where he'd be. He is nothing if not a whore.
Hypatia, get real. “My” sources – off the top of my head I gave 2 or 3 (albeit in a choppy manner - Wikipedia, Bertrand Russell’s Autobiography and the Mises Institute article) - say that Hook was a Stalinist in the 20s till the early 30's, not later, when he was an anticommunists socialist, of course. You grossly distort the Mises Inst article’s evidence, saying Your source is a right-wing isolationist who is unhappy that Hook supported WWII. That makes him a "Stalinist." It quotes glowing letters to Mom from Hook visiting the worker’s paradise. It quotes Hook in 1984 saying he was “almost a life-long opponent of communism.” Etc. And we're supposed to believe you’ve judiciously weighed all the other dirty commie pinko stuff you are so ahem, enthusiastic, about when you can't even admit you're wrong here? For your fanatical disbelief in the well known, unremarkable, universally accepted fact that Sidney Hook was a Stalinist in his and the century’s 20s, you offer .... exactly nothing; apparently this is a fact you didn’t know about someone you may admire, and which somehow causes cognitive dissonance – and also casts into doubt your claims of expertise.
ReplyDeleteSeems like you just pick the GOOD people (Hook) and the BAD people (Oppenheimer – about whom the evidence is infinitely less decisive) and then stick your fingers in your ears. Shouldn’t this remind you of – and hopefully help you understand - other people who had trouble realizing that someone who they had labelled as GOOD in their mind – Uncle Joe – might not be so good after all?
"I've never heard of that person, and I am extremely familiar with historians of the Cold War, left, right and center. Klehr is widely respected, and is prominently mentioned in much of the literature, yet, I've never seen a citation I recall to to that other."
ReplyDeleteOh! I fergot! Yer an expert!
"Who is that person and what work have they done? Did s/he, like Klehr, actually examine the Soviet archives, with a facility in the Russian language? Klehr was chosen for that mission for his superior language and other skills, on a meritocratic measure, you know. Does Emory Universitry have other not-actual historians on its faculty?
You simply do not like Klehr's conclusions and the facts he unearthed. So you dismiss him as not an "actual historian." That is poor form.
Klehr could be wrong, but given his background and training, it is unlikely an obscure cite from the Internet would show that."
Well obviously! Since you never heard of him, don't read the review! How silly of me!
"The decades-long effort to convince the House of Representatives to release its historic HUAC files finally paid off in 2001. Historians interested in HUAC's investigation of Alger Hiss and other Cold War matters can now examine hitherto secret executive session testimony and investigative files."
If you had any interest in the truth, you'd know it like the rest of us.
"As if progressives had not in recent years been battered and bludgeoned enough already, we now learn that J. Edgar Hoover, Senator Joseph McCarthy, Roy Cohn, Elizabeth Bentley, Whittaker Chambers & company really got it right: all Communists are/were actual, or wannabee, Russian spies. We also learn that during the Cold War years (and even before) hordes of leftists were abroad in the land, stealing "our" atomic secrets (and God only knows what else) for delivery to Joseph Stalin.
In recent days, this message has been dunned into our ears by such opinion-makers as William F. Buckley, Jr., George Will, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., Theodore Draper, Michael Thomas, Edward Jay Epstein and David Garrow in the pages of The New York Times, The New Republic, Commentar, Wall Street Journal, The National Review, the "McNeil-Lehrer NewsHour," and lots more (without a dissenting voice to be heard anywhere).
This all-out blitz has been fueled by "The Secret World of American Communism," written by Professor Harvey Klehr, of Emory University, John Earl Haynes, of the Library of Congress, and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov, formerly of the Comintern Archives in Moscow at the Russian Center for the Preservation and Study of Documents in Recent History. The authors claim to have put together a "massive documentary record" from the hitherto secret Comintern archives, revealing "the dark side of American communism." These documents establish, they say, proof both of "Soviet espionage in America" and of the American Communist Party's "inherent" connection with Soviet espionage operations and with its espionage services; and that such spy activities were considered, by both Soviet and the American CP leaders, "normal and proper."
Such assertions are not all that different from what J. Edgar Hoover (and his stooges) were saying half a century ago. But what reinforces the authors' statements are not only the documents from the Russian archives they claim to have uncovered, but also the imposing editorial advisory committee assembled to give this project an eminent scholarly cachet. This editorial advisory committee consists of 30 academics whose names are listed opposite the title page. They include seven Yale University professors, along with professors from Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, Chicago, Brandeis, Southern Methodist, Pittsburgh and Rochester universities. There are also an equal number of members of the Russian Academy of Sciences and of officials of various Russian archives.
Reproduced in the book are 92 documents offered by the authors as evidence of what they say is the United States Communist Party's continuous history of "covert activity." These documents, according to Professor Steven Merrit Minor in The New York Times Book Review, reveal that American Communists "relayed atomic secrets to the Kremlin" and also support the testimony of Whittaker Chambers and others that the American Communist Party was engaged in underground conspiracies against the American Government. The authors also say that the documents suggest that those "who continued to claim otherwise were either willfully naive or, more likely, dishonest."
In actuality, many of the documents are ambiguously worded or in some sort of code known only to the senders and recipients. They often contain illegible words, numbers and signatures; relate to unidentifiable persons, places and events; and are preoccupied with bookkeeping matters, inner-party hassles or with protective security measures against FBI and Trotskyite spies. Most importantly, not a single document reproduced in this volume provides evidence of espionage. Ignoring all evidence that contradicts their thesis, the authors attempt to make a case relying on assumption, speculation, and invention about the archival material and, especially, by equating secrecy with illegal spying.
The book's high points are sections relating to what the authors call atomic espionage and the CP Washington spy apparatus. As someone who has carefully examined the archives at the Russian Center, and who over the past four decades has studied the trial transcripts of the major Cold War "spy" cases, I can state that "The Secret World of American Communism," notwithstanding its scholarly accouterments, is a disgracefully shoddy work, replete with errors, distortions and outright lies. As a purported work of objective scholarship, it is nothing less than a fraud.
(...)
"In "Secret World," no explanation is offered as to how or when or through whom the originals of these documents wound up in the hands of the authors in Moscow. Yet they claim that these two exhibits provide "direct evidence" in support of Chambers' story about Hiss and the Washington underground. Actually, the only thing it provides "direct evidence" of is that, as scholarship, this book is worthless."
No self-respecting academician would allow his books to be sold on Horrorshitz website.
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~th15/home.html
Its been fascinating to watch the discussion go from a discussion of the possible parallels between the McCarthites a half-century ago and the Bush apologists/cultists of today...into a protracted shouting match over whether McCarthy was really all *that* bad, how extensive 'communist infiltration' of the US government was back in the 1940s and 1950s, and the comparative lack of virtues between Stalin, Hitler and the CIA.
ReplyDeleteFascinating stuff, really. However I think we can all agree this is fundamentally academic to the problems we currently face.
Communism, whether Soviet or otherwise, is pretty much discredited and now resides on the ash-heap of history alongside its spiritual cousin, National Socialism. The vicitms of both ideologies are memorialized and serve as a caution to us and future generations.
McCarthy and his cohorts are all dead and rightly derided for their arrogance, paranoia, and exaggeration. Those they attacked, while not perhaps physically harmed, saw their reputations often ruined and livelihoods damaged. This, too, serves as a caution for ourselves today (the Administration and its generation appears not to have learned anything) and those generations to come.
Today we are on the verge of an entirely new, frightenly unstable world. We should certainly study the past (*all* of the past, not simply the bits that reinforce our preconceptions) but not at the expense of preparing for the future.
Sadly, one of the crowning achievements of Senator McCarthy's actions was to effectively 'purge' the State Department and the government in general of experienced 'Asian Hands': regional experts in China and Asia who both spoke the languages and understood the history and culture there. As a result, there was a derth of experts to advise Eisenhower and later administrations as they escalated our intervention in Vietnam and elsewhere there.
Tragically, we're seeing the same thing now with our experts in the Middle East. Witness the recent attacks on Jill Carroll, Professor Juan Cole, and others who understand the region.
Perhaps history is destined to repeat itself. I can only pray it doesn't.
yankeependragon,
ReplyDeleteI agree. That's what I took to be the point of the movie Good Night and Good Luck. In my opinion, it wasn't about McCarthy or Edward R. Murrow, per se, but rather reminding us of the lesson.
commienazi writesAnd we're supposed to believe you’ve judiciously weighed all the other dirty commie pinko stuff you are so ahem, enthusiastic, about when you can't even admit you're wrong here?
ReplyDeleteI didn't understand what you were trying to claim about Hook; if you are only saying he was a Communist in the 20s, he was. But he publicly repudiated the Soviet Union and Stalin, and bceame widely known as an arch-opponent of same by the early 30s. So well known that when Whittaker Chambers defected from the CPUSA he sought out Hook looking for help and protection.
In any event, Hook correctly stated that there was no "reign of terror" from McCarthy. That is a total myth.
anon writes: Yet they claim that these two exhibits provide "direct evidence" in support of Chambers' story about Hiss and the Washington underground. Actually, the only thing it provides "direct evidence" of is that, as scholarship, this book is worthless."
ReplyDeleteThat's funny, because even most radical historians have admitted that Haynes and Klehr's scholarship requires a concession that there were tons of spies in the CPUSA. This work has literally transformed the field of domestic Cold War history.
You can see that for yourself, with "progressive" historians like Maurice Isserman or Bruce Craig interacting with Klehr and Haynes over at the HOAC site I linked to above. Indeed, because of all this evidence adduced by Klehr and Haynes (and several others), Dr. Craig conceded in his Harry Dexter White biography that White had been a spy.
Really, don't take my word for it; go read the historians at HOAC.
Uh oh! Is General Zinni being "swiftboated" with his prior public statements? Was he lying then or is he lying now?
ReplyDeletein February of 2000, long before President Bush assumed office, Zinni felt confident enough to provide a strikingly familiar threat assessment on Iraq to the Senate Armed Services Committee:
• Iraq remains the most significant near-term threat to U.S. interests in the Arabian Gulf region. This is primarily due to its large conventional military force, pursuit of WMD [emphasis mine], oppressive treatment of Iraqi citizens, refusal to comply with United Nations Security Council Resolutions (UNSCR) …
• Despite claims that WMD efforts have ceased, Iraq probably is continuing clandestine nuclear research, retains stocks of chemical and biological munitions, … Even if Baghdad reversed its course and surrendered all WMD capabilities, it retains the scientific, technical, and industrial infrastructure to replace agents and munitions within weeks or months. [Emphasis mine]
• The Iraqi regime’s high regard for WMD and long-range missiles is our best indicator that a peaceful regime under Saddam Hussein is unlikely.
• … extremists may turn to WMD in an effort to …overcome improved U.S. defenses against conventional attack. Detecting plans for a specific WMD attack is extremely difficult, making it likely such an event would occur without warning. [Emphasis mine]
• Extremists like Usama bin Laden …benefit from the global nature of communications that permits recruitment, fund raising, and direct connections to sub-elements worldwide. Terrorists are seeking more lethal weaponry to include chemical, biological, radiological, and even nuclear components with which to perpetrate more sensational attacks. [Emphasis mine]
• Three (Iraq, Iran and Sudan) of the seven recognized state-sponsors of terrorism [emphasis mine] are within this potentially volatile area [CENTCOM], and the Taliban regime in Afghanistan has been sanctioned by the UN Security Council for its harboring of Usama bin Laden.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5415
Gen. Zinni is currently leading to charge to get Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to resign - a campaign he began two weeks ago on NBC's "Meet the Press."
During the same broadcast, Zinni addressed the issue of Saddam's WMD threat - sounding like someone who'd developed acute amnesia about his earlier testimony.
"What bothered me," Zinni told host Tim Russert, "[was that] I was hearing a depiction of the intelligence that didn’t fit what I knew. There was no solid proof, that I ever saw, that Saddam had WMD.
"Now, I’d be the first to say we had to assume he had WMD left over that wasn’t accounted for: artillery rounds, chemical rounds, a SCUD missile or two. But these things, over time, degrade. These things did not present operational or strategic level threats at best."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/15/115347.shtml?s=ic
Bart brings up a worrisome issue: that past public statements by uniformed staff officers (who, after all, are obligated to hold with and support the public stances of their civilian superiors) do not reflect their current statements now that they've retired.
ReplyDeleteAs Bart himself pointed out several days ago, the armed services are not a 'debate society'. When the White House has taken a particular policy position (say, Saddam has WMDs or Iranian nuclear research is a threat to America), the uniformed staff officers are obligated to follow that line and support it, both rehtorically and in planning.
That said, we should perhaps be less concerned about the stance of General Zinni and the rest presently about Secretary Rumsfield's fitness to remain (I'd say its fairly obvious the man is useless and utterly discredited at this point), and *more* concerned about the Pentagon's assessments of Iran.
In light of recent history, then, can we reasonably trust anything coming out of the Pentagon concerning *anything*?
General Tony Zinni also coauthored Inside CentCom with General DeLong, which claimed among other things that Saddam moved his WMD to Syria.
ReplyDelete> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895260204/sr=8-1/qid=1145205608/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8827255-7024064?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I am losing respect rapidly for this man.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteBart brings up a worrisome issue: that past public statements by uniformed staff officers (who, after all, are obligated to hold with and support the public stances of their civilian superiors) do not reflect their current statements now that they've retired.
As Bart himself pointed out several days ago, the armed services are not a 'debate society'. When the White House has taken a particular policy position (say, Saddam has WMDs or Iranian nuclear research is a threat to America), the uniformed staff officers are obligated to follow that line and support it, both rehtorically and in planning.
1) An officer is never obligated to lie for a superior officer, civilian department head or the CiC himself. Indeed, an officer would be violating his oath and the UCMJ by lying. If he is ordered the lie, the officer has an obligation to refuse this order or to resign rather then lying.
2) Zinni does not claim that he lied under orders while in the service or when he helped write Inside CentCom.
Again, Bart, as you yourself pointed out a day or so ago, these retirees are expressing political dissent from Secretary Rumsfield. The UCMJ aside, these men all operated in a highly politicized environment, and so perhaps swallowed what criticisms they had at the time rather than risk adverse affects to their careers and families. I doubt the UCMJ would have been an effective shield against retaliation for this dissent while they were in uniform.
ReplyDeleteDo I think General Zinni out and out lied, then or now? Honestly I don't see where he did back then, as his statements you cite express simply the same sentiments (almost ad nauseum) as the rest of the Administration back then. And given how closely the Administration has guarded the raw data on Iraq and elsewhere, its impossible to tell if his current statements are necessarily truthful.
Hopefully, time will provide better perspective on these matters.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, Bart, as you yourself pointed out a day or so ago, these retirees are expressing political dissent from Secretary Rumsfield.
No, I said that they are attacking Rumsfeld now because they lost a policy debate while in uniform.
However, atleast in the case of General Zinni, the means which they are making this attack are dishonest.
The UCMJ aside, these men all operated in a highly politicized environment, and so perhaps swallowed what criticisms they had at the time rather than risk adverse affects to their careers and families. I doubt the UCMJ would have been an effective shield against retaliation for this dissent while they were in uniform.
When I served as an Army infantry and intelligence officer in the early 90s, integrity was the #1 attribute expected from an officer. Our business was life and death so you had to trust your fellow officers without a question. If you were caught lying about even the most mundane things, you might as well resign your commission. No one will trust you again.
If these men were careerist liars, then exactly why should anyone trust them now?
Do I think General Zinni out and out lied, then or now? Honestly I don't see where he did back then, as his statements you cite express simply the same sentiments (almost ad nauseum) as the rest of the Administration back then. And given how closely the Administration has guarded the raw data on Iraq and elsewhere, its impossible to tell if his current statements are necessarily truthful.
His statements are diametrically opposed and he does not claim to have gained new information in between these statements. Zinni lied then or now.
Bart and Hypatia. Newsmax and Frontpage. At least it's not Wingnutdaily. Glenn has my sympathies. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) for our country, approximately only 20% of the completely brain dead read that drivel.
ReplyDeleteBart is a cut and paste moron and knows absolutely nothing about the subjects he dribbles on about.
ReplyDeleteHOAC? Never heard of it. You mean hokey?
The American Historical(not Hysterical, that's you, Hypatia) Society
The Professional Association For All Historians
See what they have to say about it...
Start with this...
"In August 1948, Time magazine editor and ex-Communist courier Whittaker Chambers told the House Un-American Activities Committee [HUAC] that Alger Hiss, president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and former State Department official, had been a Communist in the 1930s. Chambers later repeated the allegation on the popular radio program, Meet the Press. When Hiss sued Chambers for libel, Chambers elaborated on his allegations and claimed Hiss had engaged in espionage, producing copies of State Department documents allegedly typed by Hiss's wife to support his charge. Chambers then led HUAC investigators to a hollowed-out pumpkin on his Maryland farm, where he had put rolls of film that he said Hiss had given to him for transmittal to Moscow. Indicted for perjury, Hiss was tried twice and sentenced in 1950 (the first trial had resulted in a hung jury) to five years in prison. Within weeks, Senator Joseph McCarthy launched his eponymous era with a speech invoking Alger Hiss as typifying a State Department still "thoroughly infested with Communists." Richard Nixon, Hiss's chief nemesis on HUAC, rose to fame and eventually to the presidency on the campaign slogan "Twenty Years of Treason." His career ruined, Hiss died in 1996 maintaining his innocence to the end.
The case is still hotly disputed. Continuing controversies stem from the release in 1996 of the "Venona" messages—Soviet cablegrams covertly monitored by the U.S. Army during World War II. Some contend that Venona confirms Hiss's guilt; others hold that it demonstrates the opposite. Charges and countercharges of spurious translation, shoddy scholarship, data manipulation, archival distortion, and parti pris selectivity pervade the scholarly arena. Each faction views the other as "in denial," to cite the title of John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr's 2003 input to the affray. But recent statements on the Diplomatic History electronic discussion list, H-DIPLO, by Julius Kobyakov (October 16 and December 17, 2003), deputy director of the KGB's American desk during the 1980s, and by Amy Knight (January 16 and March 2, 2004), discredit the latest essay asserting Hiss's guilt.1 The debate continues.
A recent court judgment dealing with these and related issues provides a rare instance in which academic freedom has not been curtailed but, mirabile dictu, buttressed. No less incredibly, this occurred not in the United States, where the Pumpkin Papers drama riveted the entire nation, but in Britain, before a predominantly youthful English jury wholly unversed in the history of World War II Soviet espionage and in the Cold War witch-hunt hysteria that sent Hiss to jail and Nixon to the White House.
In June 2001, ex-KGB courier Alexander Vassiliev, co-author with Allen Weinstein of The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America—The Stalin Era (1999), sued the publisher, Frank Cass Ltd., for libel in Britain's High Court. Vassiliev contended he had been defamed in an essay by law professor and filmmaker John Lowenthal, "Venona and Alger Hiss," in the Cass journal, Intelligence and National Security (INS). It is much easier to win a libel suit in Britain than in America, for in British law, the defendant must produce evidence to show that the words complained of were factually true or, if matters of opinion, were "such that an honest person could express them in the light of what he knew," whereas in America it is up to the plaintiff to prove his charges. It is for this reason that David Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt over her book Denying the Holocaust in Britain rather than in the United States (see Jamil Zainaldin, "The Price of Truth: History, Deborah Lipstadt, and the Libel Trial," Perspectives, January 2002, 27–30). Moreover, in the United States, a complaint concerning a published work (such as The Haunted Wood) must show that malice was premeditated. In Britain, damages may be awarded to a plaintiff even if defamation was not intended.
Lowenthal's essay had criticized The Haunted Wood, along with many other texts claiming to demonstrate Hiss's guilt, for misinterpreting sources and ignoring exculpatory evidence. In particular, Lowenthal censured Haunted Wood for selectively replacing KGB and Venona code names and cover names with those of Hiss and others, without citing any authority or source, other than FBI surmise, for doing so. Moreover, The Haunted Wood's conclusions stemmed from materials to which the coauthors (or their publisher) had purchased access. The KGB files on which they purported to rely were and remain closed to all others. In consequence, wrote Lowenthal, "the co-authors' references and their own narrative statements cannot be checked or verified by anyone else. Because they derive from excerpts 'quoted' out of context from KGB files closed to other researchers, the KGB materials they publish offer no credible support for the proposition . . . that Hiss was [an] espionage agent."2
Alexander Vassiliev v. Frank Cass & Co. Ltd. was held in Room 13 of the cavernous Royal Courts of Justice, facing the Strand in London, in mid-June 2003. During the weeklong trial, witnesses who were heard and cross-examined included Lowenthal; Stewart Cass on behalf of the publisher; Richard Aldrich, editor of Intelligence and National Security; and one of the Lowenthal essay's three referees. Late in the afternoon on Friday, June 13, the jury pronounced its unanimous verdict of acquittal. Although the jury held the essay to be defamatory (that is to say, that an ordinary person would be apt to think less well of Vassiliev after reading it), the criticisms Vassiliev complained of were deemed matters of opinion and fair comment; that is, given what Lowenthal and his publisher knew at the time, they could honestly take the critical views they expressed without fear of legal reprisal.
The importance of "fair comment" in a free society had been spelled out at length in Judge David Eady's charge to the jury:
We live in a society where freedom of speech is protected.... One of the most important ways by which the common law has safeguarded freedom of speech is through this defence in libel actions called "fair comment."…
We are all allowed to express our opinion on matters of public interest without being brought before the courts … even controversial or eccentric or cranky opinions.… You are entitled … to have a point of view, and to press it as hard as you like, provided you are honest.… The Haunted Wood was itself put into the public domain.... Once you have put something into the public domain for public consumption people are allowed to comment on it, … can review it and critique it under the defence of fair comment.
Crucial to the defense case and to the acquittal was the peer-review process, spelled out in painstaking detail by the publisher, the editor, the referee, and the writer. Lowenthal had accepted every recommendation of substance and of wording; the published essay incorporated all changes requested. Nonetheless, owing to the persisting animus that continues to inflame every commentary on Alger Hiss, the publisher had been sufficiently concerned to obtain legal advice to the effect that the essay could not be construed as libelous. Indeed, Aldrich (INS's editor), who considered Lowenthal's essay "pleasingly restrained and properly academic," nevertheless feared being sued "just to cause us grief," as he wrote Cass's managing editor in a letter shown to the jury.
Because the sanctity of properly refereed scholarly publication was the linchpin of the defense argument, the judge's charge and the jury's ruling are of immense service to academe, greatly reducing the menace of frivolous, ill-considered, or vexatious threats of legal action. The two years between the filing and the decision of this suit had already had a chilling effect on academic publication in Britain, for no publisher wanted to be put at risk of a lengthy, costly, and perhaps unsuccessful defense.
Academic freedom had been invoked a generation earlier in Britain, in a 1970 opinion by Lord Denning, then Master of the Rolls. Denning aimed to justify "lawful criticism" in a paper in the British Medical Journal, against which a complainant had won libel damages in a decision that had then been appealed. "It would be a sorry day if scientists were to be deterred from publishing their findings for fear of libel actions," held Denning, who added, "So long as they refrain from personal attacks, they should be free to criticise the systems and techniques of others. It is in the interests of truth itself. Were it otherwise, no scientific journal would be safe." But Denning's was then a minority view, and the defendant in that case lost. Hence Vassiliev v. Cass "has actually changed UK law," INS editor Aldrich wrote me in October 2003. "It ensures that we are now immune from defamation if we have refereed an article.… It was the fact that we stood up and assured the court that everything that is [in] an article is rigorously refereed … that counted."
The British High Court trial is by no means the only occasion in which the Hiss case has generated issues germane to freedom of scholarship. From the 1950s on, the Hiss trials and their aftermath have been permeated with allegations involving the fabrication and withholding of evidence. Thus the FBI was charged with concealing evidence that the typewriter shown to the jury that convicted Hiss was not, in fact, Hiss's own typewriter. "The FBI trapped Hiss," Lowenthal concluded in 1976, "by suppressing the evidence vital to his defense."3 In defiance of the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act, as Lowenthal testified at the Vassiliev/Cass trial, the FBI has continued since 1967 to withhold from researchers crucial evidence bearing on this and other aspects of the Hiss case.
Similarly reluctant to release disputed material is the historian Allen Weinstein, whose book Perjury: The Hiss-Chambers Case (1978) purported to prove Hiss's guilt partly on the basis of interviews with informants. But six of Weinstein's seemingly damning interviewees, when queried by Victor Navasky, then editor of The Nation magazine, denied they had told Weinstein what he published in Perjury; they had been misquoted, misrepresented, or misconstrued.4 One of them, Samuel Krieger, got libel damages and a public apology after Weinstein failed to produce promised tapes of his interview. In 1978 Weinstein pledged to deposit all his tapes and interview notes along with other data in the Truman presidential library within the year. A quarter century after that promise, and a decade after Jon Wiener again addressed this breach of historical ethics, many of Weinstein's most crucial and controversial source materials remain undeposited and unavailable to historians, other than those to whom Weinstein has given selective access.5 Given these circumstances, much of the evidence for Perjury's conclusions remains as unverifiable as the extracts from KGB documents in Haunted Wood, "fatally tainted," as Navasky put it, by Weinstein's "unprofessionalism."
Wiener's critique of Weinstein's ethical conduct, initially scheduled to appear in AHA Perspectives in December 1990, was delayed until February 1992 ("The Alger Hiss Case, the Archives, and Allen Weinstein," 10–12), in part to allow Weinstein an opportunity to respond, which he declined. Wiener then registered a formal complaint that Weinstein had violated the AHA's 1987 Statement on Standards of Professional Conduct. This was recused by the AHA's Professional Division on the ground that Wiener's essay in Perspectives had already made the charges public knowledge.
Since May 2003 the AHA has ceased to accept complaints of ethical misconduct. But the Statement on Standards continues to play a pivotal role in public controversies involving professional conduct. Historians and others who rely on its authority might want to join other scholars in a proactive defense both of open access to source materials (see "Resolving Academic Freedom: Professional Groups Defend Intellectual Openness," Academe, May–June 2003) and of liberty to publish without being menaced by vexatious litigation. The landmark decision in Britain's High Court is a promising bridgehead in the battle to uphold freedom of expression and of historical inquiry."
—David Lowenthal (d.lowenthal@ucl. ac.uk), emeritus professor at University College London,
is the brother of John Lowenthal, who died September 9, 2003.
Notes
1. Eduard Mark "Who Was 'Venona's' 'Ales'? Cryptanalysis and the Hiss Case," Intelligence and National Security 18:3 (2003), 45–72.
2. John Lowenthal, "Venona and Alger Hiss," Intelligence and National Security 15:3 (2000), 98–130 at 116–17.
3. John Lowenthal, "What the FBI Knew and Hid," The Nation, June 26, 1976, 776–82.
4. Victor Navasky, "Allen Weinstein's 'Perjury': The Case Not Proved against Alger Hiss," The Nation, April 8, 1978, 393–401.
5. "Costly Error for Hiss Historian," New York Magazine (May 21, 1979), 61; Jon Wiener, "Compromised Positions," Lingua Franca (January-February 1993), 41–48. See also G. Edward White, Alger Hiss's Looking-Glass Wars: The Covert Life of a Soviet Spy (Oxford, 2004), page 189, note 39.
The two of you can drivel and dribble on all you want. You will never convince anyone the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. Not on this planet, anyway...
Historians In Trouble
ReplyDeleteAllen Weinstein, in his book Perjury, did more to document the case against Alger Hiss than any other historian. But his documentation was challenged; many key interviewees insisted they had been misquoted. He steadfastly refused to make the documentation available to other historians, as required by the American Historical Association (AHA) guidelines—and as Michael Bellesiles and others accused of misconduct did. Nevertheless, Weinstein faced no investigations or penalties; the AHA refused to take up the case against him. The mainstream media ignored the charges—perhaps because Weinstein is on the popular side of an old debate; he defended the conventional wisdom about Alger Hiss. The people who have questioned the book’s documentation did not have the power to get their case into the mainstream media—partly because the mainstream does not want to have to deal with the possibility that something is seriously wrong with the leading work documenting Hiss’s guilt. Allen Weinstein stonewalled his critics for twenty-five years; then, in 2004, George W. Bush nominated him to be Archivist of the United States.
Nobody but you 20%er complete loons would grant this clown and huckster with bold faced initials after his name any credibility whatsoever now.
I could go on with other links and sources and cites, but really... what's the point? None of us will ever convince you two morons the sun sets in the west and rises in the east on this, our planet. go home to your own. You're not happy here anyway.
Bart and Hypatia. Newsmax and Frontpage. At least it's not Wingnutdaily. Glenn has my sympathies. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) for our country, approximately only 20% of the completely brain dead read that drivel.
ReplyDeleteYou are such a fool. Glenn himself has linked to frontpage to back up a claim -- this was quite a few months ago -- and some leftwinger jumped all over him for it. So, I defended Glenn's link on the same basis for which I occasionally link to that site, to wit: when I have independent reason to know that something there is true, and it comes up easily and handily in a google search for whatever fact claim I am looking to support, I will use the frontpage link. Like Glenn did.
As for that "analysis" of the Hiss case you posted, it is written by the brother of Alger Hiss's lawyer, who recently died. Almost no professional historians in the relevant field give it any credence, as you would see if you went to read the HOAC list, where many of the top historians in the area of domestic communism read about and post about their scholarly concerns. This would include Maurice Isserman, who co-authored a piece in The Nation discussing Haynes and Klehr's work, and conceding much to them. Isserman, a "progressive historian" wrote: "it is now abundantly clear that most of those who were identified as Soviet agents in the forties and fifties really were -- and that most of them belonged to the Communist Party" and "as Venona and the Moscow sources reveal, the party recruited dozens, perhaps hundreds, of its members to spy for the Soviet Union."
Again, Isserman wrote that in The Nation. You can read Haynes' response to Isserman here. he gives a cite to the Isserman (and Schrecker) article so you can look that up, too if you want to see just how much of what you deny has already been conceded by leftist historians competent in the field.
That Lowenthall piece was dissected over at HOAC -- where left-wing scholar Isserman participates along with Klehr and Haynes. There are many different ideological perspectives represented at that scholarly site, and the overwhelming majority agree that the evidence against Hiss is now overwhelming. Which is why you are seeing the admissions you do even in The Nation.
And about this from your piece anon: But recent statements on the Diplomatic History electronic discussion list, H-DIPLO, by Julius Kobyakov (October 16 and December 17, 2003), deputy director of the KGB's American desk during the 1980s, and by Amy Knight (January 16 and March 2, 2004), discredit the latest essay asserting Hiss's guilt.1 The debate continues.
ReplyDeleteI've read H-Diplo, and it is a sister list of HOAC. Amy Knight and Mr. Kobyakov also participate at HOAC; much cross-posting goes on. Knight makes many factual errors and routinely has her head handed to her -- she is one of a handful of holdouts still moving heaven and Earth to contort the Venona and Socviet archival evidence to mean other than what it does.
It is entertaining to watch what happens to her when even some leftish historians have to correct her. Really, go read over at HOAC; there are some Russian historians particpating there as well, and it is all quite fascinating.
Anon: Here is an example of a message cross-posted to H-Diplo and HOAC, in which John Earl Haynes shreds one of the endless examples of Amy Knight's lack of familiarity with both Russian terms and the facts.
ReplyDeleteHaynes writes this about the Hiss case and the overwhlming, independently standing pieces of evidence of guilt:
Just how heavy the evidence is must not be forgotten. Two witnesses stated
personal knowledge that Alger Hiss was a spy: Whittaker Chambers and Hede
Massing, both former liaisons between various sources and Soviet
intelligence agencies. Now John Lowenthal in his essay in _Intelligence
and National Security_ maintained that Chambers made it all up, that
Chambers was never a spy. But Julian Wadleigh, a State Department
official, confessed to having been part of Chambers' espionage apparatus
and delivering documents to him. A mathematician at the Army's Aberdeen
Proving Grounds, Vincent Reno, confessed that he had furnished government
documents to Chambers's apparatus. Felix Inslerman stated under oath that
he had been sent to the USSR, trained in photography, and sent back to the
U.S. were he worked for the GRU, and specifically functioned as a
photographer of stolen government documents for Chambers. William Crane, a
California Communist, confirmed contact with Boris Bykov of the GRU and
that he had also photographed Treasury and State Department documents for
Chambers and carried out courier missions. Nadya Ulanovski, formerly of
the GRU, confirmed that Chambers had been part of the espionage network
that she and her husband supervised in the early 1930s. Meanwhile, Massing
story has been corroborated by material in Hungarian and Czechoslovak
archives from Noel Field's post-Stalin rehabilitation debriefings. In that
material Field confirms that Hiss attempted to recruit him as a source,
unaware that Massing had already done so. Additionally Weinstein's 1997
edition of _Perjury_ as well as his more recent _The Haunted Wood_ cite
KGB documents about this incident, documents where Hiss is identified as a
Soviet source for the GRU in clear text..
In 1948 Chambers also produced typed and handwritten material he had
hidden in 1938 from his final months before he dropped out of Soviet
espionage. The material summarized sixty-eight different State Department
documents that went through Hiss's office. Handwriting examiners for both
the prosecution and the defense agreed that the handwritten material was
in Hiss's own hand. Technical examination, again by both prosecution and
defense experts, established that the typed material was typed on the Hiss
family typewriter of the mid-1930s. In addition to the typed and
handwritten material, Chambers also produced microfilm made by his
espionage network of documents that Hiss had given him in early 1938.
Three of the documents on the film had Hiss's handwritten initials on them
and the stamp from the small State Department office where Hiss worked.
Please note how absurd and silly Hiss defenders have been; as Haynes notes, some have insisted Whittaker Chambers had never been a spy -- this is totally preposterous, but such inanities are really all that is left to the handfull of remaining Hiss defenders.
Talk about your "resolute fantasy world."
I read that crap over at HOAC. Hokey is the precise word for it.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to cast some parting pearls of wisdom before swine...
ReplyDeleteI have linked to many sites myself, does that mean I endorse them? Hardly. Being called a fool by an idiot like you is a compliment. Thank you. Now for the pearls. Alas, they are not mine, but they mean alot to me anyway.
IDIOT, n.
A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but "pervades and regulates the whole." He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a dead-line.
FOOL, n.
A person who pervades the domain of intellectual speculation and diffuses himself through the channels of moral activity. He is omnific, omniform, omnipercipient, omniscience, omnipotent. He it was who invented letters, printing, the railroad, the steamboat, the telegraph, the platitude and the circle of the sciences. He created patriotism and taught the nations war -- founded theology, philosophy, law, medicine and Chicago. He established monarchical and republican government. He is from everlasting to everlasting -- such as creation's dawn beheld he fooleth now. In the morning of time he sang upon primitive hills, and in the noonday of existence headed the procession of being. His grandmotherly hand was warmly tucked-in the set sun of civilization, and in the twilight he prepares Man's evening meal of milk-and-morality and turns down the covers of the universal grave. And after the rest of us shall have retired for the night of eternal oblivion he will sit up to write a history of human civilization.
HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
HISTORY, n.
An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.
Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
Salder Bupp
Ambrose Bierce
The Devil's Dictionary
Now we are done.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart and Hypatia. Newsmax and Frontpage. At least it's not Wingnutdaily. Glenn has my sympathies. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) for our country, approximately only 20% of the completely brain dead read that drivel.
Do you dispute the accuracy of the quotes from Zinni's testimony? If so, prove they are inaccurate. If not, casting aspersions on the messenger do no change the facts.
Anon writes: I read that crap over at HOAC. Hokey is the precise word for it.
ReplyDeleteWhat, not a word about The Nation publishing one of those "hokey" HOAC participants, Maurice Isserman (and the self-described radical progressive, Ellen Schrecker), acknowledging that Haynes and Klehr's work regarding the Venona decrypts and the Soviet archives makes it impossible any longer to deny that most of the accused Communist spies were such?
All you can do is call me names, all kinds of them, and bluster that a scholarly site comprised of historians from all over the ideological spectrum, is crap. Clearly the fact that the supposed victims of McCarthyism actually were traitors in the service of Stalin is intolerable for you; your brain cannot accept that thought. Much like Bush worshippers who cannot seriously consider that the Leader may be behaving illegally. Your behavior here has been much like theirs when I have confronted them with evidence they find very displeasing.
Squealing like stuck pigs.
And anon, you might want to see how these issues are discussed in a civil fashion, by reading the letters to the editor section at The Nation. And do note, that Allen Weinstein, whom you disparage, is approvingly quoted by radical historian Ellen Schrecker, and by left-of-center historian Maurice Isserman.
ReplyDeleteAbove all, note that these historians are no longer arguing about whether Hiss, the Rosenbergs & etc. were Communist spies -- in the pages of that reactionary rag The Nation they concede that. The question is now, for them, how harsh should we be in judging the spies?
Do you dispute the accuracy of the quotes from Zinni's testimony? If so, prove they are inaccurate. If not, casting aspersions on the messenger do no change the facts.
ReplyDeleteI dispute your existence as a sentient being. BTW... you and I are done as well. It may come as a surprise that you actually no longer exist.
I'm Alger Hiss's ghost and I hate snakes!
ReplyDeleteAnon, the whole Snakes on a Plane thing is hugely fun. It is an example of the blogosphere in action; "we" made them retain the magnificent title and add campy dialogue:
ReplyDeleteSight unseen, the movie has grown from something of a joke into a phenomenon slithering untamed throughout the Internet. The audio bit [on the Internet] uses a [Samuel L.] Jackson sound-alike shouting, "I want these motherfucking snakes off the motherfucking plane!" Soon, the growing legion of fans added their voices as they demanded that that phrase also appear in the movie.
Apparently, the studio got the hint. When Ellis assembled Jackson and others for the recent shoot, the filmmakers added more gore, more death, more nudity, more snakes and more death scenes. And they shot a scene where Jackson does utter the line that [Internet] fans have demanded.
Another thing these Koolaid swillers are forgetting or outright lying about are that they're Clinton appointees, which somehow makes them honorary liberal Democrats and quite a few of these generals are actually lifelong Republicans.
ReplyDeleteIt's this hysterical, insane kind of thinking that led some wingnut bloggers to mistake Fred Phelps with the liberal Democrats and even brought about violence between Bush supporters near Camp Casey last August.
Hypatia wouldn't know a credible peer reviewed source if it bit her on her probably ample ass.
ReplyDeletePeer Gynt writes: Hypatia wouldn't know a credible peer reviewed source if it bit her on her probably ample ass.
ReplyDeleteYes, more of the ad hominems and personal insults, rather than addressing the statements of professional historians, like Maurice Isserman and Ellen Schrecker in, of all places, The Nation. Isserman and Schrecker are competent to "peer review" the work of Haynes and Klehr. And Isserman and Schrecker largely concede that Haynes and Klehr's scholarship proves that most accused spies were such.
Sorry, I know you don't like it, but nasty comments about me do not change the truth. All you are doing is showing how thoroughly unpalatable the truth is for you.
Hypatia doesn't know the difference between personal opinions and peer review. Why does this not surprise me?
ReplyDeletePeer Gynt claims: Hypatia doesn't know the difference between personal opinions and peer review. Why does this not surprise me?
ReplyDeleteTwo professional historians have publicly concluded -- against their ideological predilictions -- that Haynes and Klehr have it right. And in The Nation, yet -- it is surpassingly telling, for that magazine to be carrying that opinion. (And btw, Isserman and Schrecker advance the same "opinions" in their peer-reviewed work.)
Further, the HOAC list I have linked to, in turn links to or gives citations for peer-reviewed articles by the participants there and elsewhere, pertaining to the history of American communism. Haynes and Klehr's work has stood up very well under formal peer review, as you could learn if you perused the HOAC scholars site.
Indeed, their work with the Venona dycrypts and the Russian archival materials has literally galvanized their field of expertise; it has changed the terms of the professional discussion, such that now, most of the hisorians who had steadfastly denied it, concede the Stalinist spies were guilty. The question now is whether it was really so awful that they spied. Yeshiva University's Ellen Schrecker argues for a more "international" view of patriotism to rehabilitate her heros.
But,you will continue to make me the issue, because you dislike the truths I point out. Your Sacred Martyrs to McCarthyism were, in fact, Stalinist spies. Sorry, but it is true.
While Hypatia rants on I would suggest that any person interested in the continuing debate about Hiss and Chambers visit this site. For myself, knowing that Haynes is a fan of McCarthy, like Ann Coulter, I ignore him completely. No one pays attention to him anyway but loons like Horowitz. Recent developments do call into question Weinstein's work. That much is now certain. Without saying how I know, I will say this, the case against Hiss was a frame-up. Nothing new, the FBI does it all the time. He may well have been a spy, we may never know, or at least not any time soon, but the evidence was manufactured, not unlike the evidence of WMDs.
ReplyDeleteAnon errs: For myself, knowing that Haynes is a fan of McCarthy, like Ann Coulter, I ignore him completely. No one pays attention to him anyway but loons like Horowitz.
ReplyDeleteOh really? Here is SFGate smacking down Ann Coulter by citing Haynes and Klehr, whom many actually take very seriously; sort of as the Ultimate Arbiters. Haynes and Klehr have both strongly rebuked Ann Coulter for her equating all liberals with treason; I've quoted their vehement words to her on that score previously at this site.
And to quote from The Nation again (who also seems to take Haynes and Klehr seriously):
McCarthy has ever been a third rail in American politics. Even such conservative contemporaries as J. Edgar Hoover, Whittaker Chambers, Henry Luce and Russell Kirk rejected him for various reasons. Historians John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, who have written extensively on Soviet infiltration, quickly add a warning label: "None of this, however, offers any vindication for Senator McCarthy, or McCarthyism."
And here is John Earl Haynes (taken seriously on Booktalk arguing with a pro-McCarthy author with whom Haynes disagrees):
I think Arthur Herman’s book does an excellent job of correcting the excessive, indeed hysterical demonization of McCarthy that has been typical of far too many historical accounts. I do not, however, share Herman’s positive appraisal, qualified though it is, of McCarthy.…He attempted to make anticommunism a partisan weapon. Senator Joseph McCarthy painted the New Deal as part of a disguised Communist plot and depicted Truman administration leaders Dean Acheson and George Marshall as participants in a Communist conspiracy. …Normal democratic politics cannot proceed when one side in a partisan battle regards the other as the enemy of fundamental values. Sometimes it is true that one force in a polity does threaten the fundamental values, or the foundation rules of democracy itself, or the institutional existence of other groups, and when that happens with major political forces one has a genuine systemic crisis and outcome may be civil war, as it was in 1861 when Southern political leaders felt that the policies of the newly ascendant Republicans threatened slavery, an institution then fundamental to Southern society. Or it may be true but the political force that threatens fundamental values is a not a powerful one and can be marginalized, as American Communists were in the late 1940s, while leaving the major participants in democratic politics largely unaffected. But sometimes it isn’t true, and we have a crisis generated by demagoguery and malign partisan zeal when one side falsely or mistakenly attempts to paint the other as illegitimate. In my view that is what McCarthy attempted to do, and is why I view his role as a negative one.
Finally, you intimate some special, Gnostic insight into the Hiss matter. Well, the enormous weight of evidence against Hiss – from multiple, independent sources that could not possibly have been conspiring with each other – simply forecloses your certainty that Hiss was “framed.” Whittaker Chambers would have had to have been complicit in any such FBI frame-up, and there is absolutely no evidence that he did such a thing. You are as mistaken about that, as you are about John Earl Haynes’ views regarding Joseph McCarthy.
hypatia:
ReplyDelete"Where are the innocent victims?" you bray.
Well, let's start with HUAC itself. Here's one: "A lifelong non-Communist progressive like Sam Jaffe was blacklisted for refusal to cooperate. Jaffe, who had been nominated for an Oscar for The Asphalt Jungle (1950) and was famous for roles in Lost Horizon (1937) and Gunga Din (1939), was reduced to teaching high school math and living with his sisters. He would eventually make a comeback as Dr. Zorba on the successful Ben Casey television series." According to the same source,"no more than 10 percent [of those blacklisted] would be able to return to careers in Hollywood."
You can read more here. I suspect you'll dismiss anything from The Encyclopedia of the American Left but unless you can demonstrate that Jaffe and every other person on the blacklist was a committed, treasonous Stalinist at the time of the hearings -- or ever -- then you're ignoring lots of innocent victims.
And then there's the ancillary HUAC fallout, as described in
this essay by the daughter of a lawyer who defended the Hollywood Ten. Do you have any evidence that this man -- an admitted attorney -- also was a Stalinist stooge? What about his daughter? She fed him coins while he talked on a pay phone to avoid the FBI wiretap on their home phone, so I guess she's a collaborator. Hell, she got off light.
That's just HUAC. As an expert, you know that while we use "HUAC" or "McCarthy" as shorthand terms for the red scare generally, the paranoia and persecution went much further.
In 1947 Truman instituted a loyalty oath for all federal employees. According to his biographer, Truman looked back on this as a terrible mistake; at the time, he wrote his wife that he was “just trying to get ahead of that sonofabitch McCarthy.” (That's a close paraphrase; I don't have my notes with me.)
Every federal department set up a loyalty board to hear anonymous complaints against employees accused of communist activities or tendencies or leanings or sympathies -- often based on nothing more an offhand remark or the contents of a record collection or visiting a suspect coffee shop. Former labor secretary Frances Perkins sat on one such board and tried to limit the worst abuses. She objected to kangaroo courts as fundamentally un-American (what about you, hypatia?) but she also had personal reasons for her stance; pre-WWII, she'd been relentlessly attacked for years and threatened with impeachment over the Harry Bridges deportation issue.
Was Perkins a communist plant who escaped justice? What about all the federal employees whose jobs were lost or put at risk because of anonymous complaints to loyalty boards -- Stalinists one and all?
And then there's the issue you seem oddly reluctant to address: the intimate connection between the anti-communist crusade and the segregationist cause.
One example: Sen. Eastland of Mississippi, as chair of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, subpoenaed witnesses based only and entirely on their civil rights work. On the stand, these people were questioned about membership in the Communist party. Their denials were countered by a pet witness, Paul Crouch, who perjured himself by identifying pretty much anyone Eastland pointed to as either a party operative or a fellow traveler. One of Eastland's targets, Anne Braden, died recently. Here's an obit describing her experience.
What do you think? She deserved it, right? She was asking for it, associating with all those coloreds. That's the southern anti-commie patriot speaking, hypatia. You're upholding their work.
Eastland used the ludicrous SISS testimony to (among other things) justify a raid to seize the records of the Southern Conference Education Fund, a voting rights organization. The courts ruled that the raid was illegal -- but it took almost a decade of litigation, wasting time and money that would have been better spent in, I dunno, working to expand voting rights in the South.
So -- SCEF, a hotbed of subversion? By all means, do your own research; there's no evidence at all, anywhere, that it or any of its predecessors were commie fronts or commie-associated in any way. Same for the Highlander Folk Center and other civil rights organizations whose work was derailed. Same for many, many people who suffered financially, socially, emotionally, simply because they worked for equal rights for all Americans. That stance alone was controversial, but the red-baiting put a patriotic gloss on outright bigotry and made integration itself and civil rights advocates "treasonous." (Sound familiar, hypatia?)
And for you to cite Manhattan cocktail party chatter to dismiss the idea that McCarthyism had innocent victims -- that's contemptible. The editor cranked out his leftist screeds unmolested -- so very nice for him, the myopic, narcissistic prick. Too fucking bad he never bestirred himself to travel west of the Hudson to talk to a cinematographer or a file clerk or a librarian or any one of thousands of proles whose lives were warped or wrecked by what he so glibly dismissed.
But he has the excuse of limited perspective. You, on the other hand, have no such out.
You condemn 1930s CPUSA members for ignoring Stalin's atrocities when, according to you, they were widely known. Really? No internet, no national news source. The NYT reporter in the USSR (as I'm sure you know, being an expert and all) grossly distorted his accounts and suppressed Stalin's brutality. And so where would these Americans have learned what was going on thousands of miles away? Who was bringing them this information you say everyone knew?
Whereas you have not only the advantage of hindsight but also access to vast amounts of historical information and analysis, primary and secondary documents. Yet you actively ignore, discount, denigrate, fight against any information that threatens your manichean cartoon of USSRobots mindlessly carrying out orders from the politburo beamed directly into their fillings.
Yes, some leftists were Stalin apologists (c.f. the NYT reporter). Yes, some leftists worked against the interests of the United States. They were a tiny minority. The vast majority of people caught up in the commie bug-zapper were innocent victims. Non-Stalinists, non-subversives, non-traitors -- innocent victims.
Your absolute denial of this fact becomes pathological.
Vitever quotes a daughter: By that time the blacklist had ended. The first break came with Otto Preminger, who announced he was hiring Trumbo to write "Exodus." Then Kirk Douglas said he would give Trumbo full credit for writing "Spartacus." These actions paved the way. In 1961, Ring Lardner, who had been blacklisted since 1947, was given credit for writing "The Cincinnati Kid." He went on to win an Oscar for "MASH." Salt came back with "Midnight Cowboy" and "All the Way Home," winning Oscars for both.
ReplyDeleteRing Lardner and Dalton Trumbo were STALINISTS. Again, you keep claiming as victims people who were STALINISTS.
If her father defended the Hollywood 10 for HUAC purposes, he was a Stalinist, too. It has been documented that the Hollywood 10 followed the CPUSA's decisions as to legal procedures for their HUAC statements and positions. CPUSA members did not use non-Party members as attorneys unless party interests were not at stake.
As for Sam Jaffe, I don't know the particulars about him. But I do know the loyalty screening process for federal employees and defense workers, as institued by Truman, was only intelligent. Or was Truman a McCarthyite, too?
Harry Bridges was a Stalinist. I don't know what troubles Frances Perkins may have had wrt to Bridges, but he was a Stalinist.
As for the South and civil rights issues, what has that to do with whether so-called McCarthyism left a huge trail of innocent victims?
And look, I'm sorry, but as I've discussed, the CPUSA was behind a lot of the early civil rights work, and created front organizations for that purpose. The civil rights movement was just notwithstanding, but it was not unreasonable to suspect that it was controlled by the CPUSA in some of its organizations, because sometimes it was.
Stalin orderd the CPUSA to employ racial strife to create domestic unrest in the U.S. This nation's own sins gave him that to exploit, but it is a fact that he did so.
Ok Vetiver: it seems I was wrong about something. While most of the Hollywood 10 lawyers were Stalinits , it seems Bartley Crum was not.
ReplyDeleteCrum was one of only two of the seven lawyers on the Ten’s defense team who were not themselves members of the Party. Bosworth says that her father vigorously defended people as long as he possibly could afford it financially, because of his deep allegiance to the principles of the First Amendment. But the experience also made him very wary of the American Communists, because they were not in fact independent individuals but were men under stern Party intellectual discipline. He found them continually deceptive as to their intentions and motives. Crum was repelled by the Communists’ “rude, plodding dogmatism, their habit of secrecy,” and that included the behavior of the Party lawyers assigned to work with him on the case. It is Bartley Crum’s conundrum which summarizes the issue addressed in this paper.9 …For his role in defending the Ten, Crum from 1947 onward was continually persecuted by the FBI. Though a practicing Catholic, a liberal Republican, and then a, leader for Truman against the Communist-supported Henry Wallace, Crum was spied on for more than six years, and his passport was threatened several times on grounds of his alleged potential for subversion
Sorry, but my link is from an Art Eckstein piece reprinted at, frontpage.
But let me ask you, given that most CPUSA members used only Stalinists as lawyers, how was it unreasonable for the FBI to suspect Crum was one as well?