Thursday, April 06, 2006

Something Doesn't Add Up Here

By Anonymous Liberal

Today's revelation--which comes straight from court papers filed by Patrick Fitzgerald--is that Scooter Libby has testified that President Bush specifically authorized him (via Dick Cheney) to release selected portions of the classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) to New York Times reporter Judy Miller in their now infamous July 8, 2003 rendezvous at the St. Regis Hotel. (Thanks to Tom Maguire for posting the court papers on his site). Here's the key passage from Fitzgerald's court filing:

As to the meeting on July 8, defendant testified that he was specifically authorized in advance of the meeting to disclose the key judgments of the classified NIE to Miller on that occasion because it was thought that the NIE was "pretty definitive" against what Ambassador Wilson had said and that the Vice President thought it was "very important" for the key judgments of the NIE to come out. Defendant further testified that he at first advised the Vice President that he could not have this conversation with reporter Miller because of the classified nature of the NIE.

Defendant testified that the Vice President later advised him that the President had
authorized defendant to disclose the relevant portions of the NIE. Defendant testified that he also spoke to David Addington, then Counsel to the Vice President, whom defendant considered to be an expert in national security law, and Mr. Addington
opined that Presidential authorization to publicly disclose a document amounted to
declassification of the document.

At another point in the court filing, Fitzgerald writes:

Defendant testified that the circumstances of his conversation with reporter Miller--getting approval from the President through the Vice President to discuss material that would be classified but for that approval--were unique in his recollection.

There are a number of puzzling aspects of this story. First, consider this paragraph from Murray Waas:

Although not reflected in the court papers, two senior government officials said in interviews with National Journal in recent days that Libby has also asserted that Cheney authorized him to leak classified information to a number of journalists during the run-up to war with Iraq. In some instances, the information leaked was
directly discussed with the Vice President, while in other instances Libby believed he had broad authority to release information that would make the case to go to war.

Were these pre-war leaks authorized by the President as well, or just Cheney? If by the President, why did Libby describe the NIE incident as "unique in his recollection"? If these leaks were authorized by Cheney alone, did Cheney break the law? And if Libby acted solely on the Vice President's authority for these pre-war leaks, why was he suddenly unwilling to do so with respect the NIE? What changed?

According to Libby's testimony, he advised Cheney that he could not discuss the NIE with reporters because it was classified. Then, even after Cheney got specific authorization from the President, Libby felt compelled to seek legal advice from David Addington before leaking the information. Does that make any sense? Waas' sources (and common sense) tell us that this was not the first time Libby had been asked to leak classified information. So is this just an elaborate cover-your-ass story on Libby's part? What's going on here?

Another bizarre aspect of this story is highlighted by Eriposte at the Left Coaster (who has done incredible work on various aspects of this story). Fitzgerald writes in the court filing:

Defendant understood that he was to tell Miller, among other things, that a key judgment of the NIE held that Iraq was "vigorously trying to procure" uranium.

But as Eriposte points out, the passage Libby is referring to was NOT one of the key judgments contained in the NIE. Indeed, it was buried in the text of the document precisely because it was not thought to be particularly credible. And of course Libby neglected to tell Miller about the portions of the NIE that cast doubt on the uranium claim. In other words, not only does Libby claim that he was authorized to release cherry-picked portions of the NIE to Miller, but he claims he was told to misrepresent to Miller that those portions were "key judgments."

So let's assume, for the moment, that Libby's testimony is accurate. That would mean that the President, instead of following normal declassification procedures and publicly releasing a redacted version of the NIE, authorized an aide to present a cherry-picked and manipulated version of that document to a friendly New York Times reporter on deep background. That aide then passed along the highly misleading information and asked that it be attributed to a "former Hill staffer." That may not be illegal, but it is sure as hell unethical. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that during this same conversation, Libby revealed the identity of an undercover CIA agent.

Meanwhile, National Security Counsel staff, unaware of this secret declassification, continued to go through the steps of formally declassifying portions of the document, and finally succeeded ten days later, on July 18, 2003.

I honestly don't know what to make of all this, but any way you slice it, it seems pretty dodgy. Hopefully our esteemed Washington press corps will now start asking some questions.

124 comments:

  1. Anonymous6:55 PM

    Look here for a good example of what I have been talking about.

    “Emphasis added to what will surely become the rave-up lefty talking point.” [see comments on the prior post] “ However, as Mr. Gerstein noted... we *don't know* what Cheney and Bush discussed before Bush authorized the partial disclosure of the NIE. President Bush may have been vitally interested specifically in discrediting Joe Wilson; he may not have heard the name, and simply authorized the disclosure to help with the White House side of the press coverage. ... So, was "Bush Nailed" for helping with a White House PR pushback? I'll bet he gets involved with White House message management pretty regularly.”
    In other words, with the information we have so far this could be a routine act by Bush having no particular significance. What happens to the credibility of the left when they run around shrieking that Bush is nailed and the facts later show that he was not? Believe me folks, the undecided are looking at the facts, not the shrieking. And the more “wolf” is cried, the harder it will be to get the true word out when some real stuff is available.
    Mr. Greenwald wisely avoids the shrieking and adopts an eminently appropriate tone with regard to these disclosures.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous6:57 PM

    Plamegate will be excused by 'inherent authority'
    (cross-posted by me at Kos;now updated)

    I've seen this coming for months now. This sort of thing will be said: The President has inherent powers to do anything to further national security security, post-911. That includes declassifying the status of documents or even agents-- agents are "expendable" in war time, after all. And he granted Cheney this same power. (Remember that move, showed up in the blogs a few months ago, transfering the power to declassify?).

    In interests of national security (read: Bush drive to invade Iraq) classified documents and even Plame's covert status were "expendable resources"; revealing them was "an appropriate action taken in defense of our nation, a necessary tactical move in support of the over-all strategy to secure our safety. Plame was "an expendable soldier."

    Sigh. In the end, that's what will happen. Libby et al will be pardoned by Bush with that justification, even if convicted. Must be nice being king.

    Updated: My suspicion is that Reagan knew most of the illegal actions associated w/ IranContra. He was just better insulated than Bush. Which would make it more embarrassing for Bush to pardon than for Reagan.
    Wayne

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  3. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Ooops. Sorry. AL wisely adopts the approprtiate tone.

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  4. Just what are “normal declassification” procedures anyway? Does anyone have a link that explains this?

    Is it true that all Dick Cheney has to say is “let’s screw him over and tell Bob Novak this” and then, voila it’s magically declassified? Can that be true?

    There are so many aspects to this that don’t make sense. Here’s just one example

    So: Cheney and Bush and Addington all supposedly believed they could declassify the NIE on Bush's say-so, but for some reason they continued with the normal declassification process anyway. In fact, "Defendant testified in the grand jury that he understood that even in the days following his conversation with Ms. Miller, other key officials — including Cabinet level officials — were not made aware of the earlier declassification even as those officials were pressed to carry out a declassification of the NIE." It was just a private little declassification between the three of them that even Karl Rove didn't know about.

    Needless to say, this doesn't make sense. Documents are either declassified or they're not, and the president can either declassify them with a mere verbal flick of his wrist or he can't. Which is it?


    Something’s happening here, what it is ain’t exactly clear……..

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  5. Anonymous7:39 PM

    Scotty McClellan, 9/23/03: "The president has set high standards, the highest of standards, for people in his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it [the 'outing' of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame], they would no longer be in this administration."

    Has Dennis Hastert been sworn in as U.S. President yet? He's next in line of succession, right?

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  6. Anonymous8:11 PM

    Blogwhoring, but my take on why the Dems' spinelessness on the NSA may mean Bush gets away with this one, too, is here at VichyDems.

    OT: Bet Glenn's going to have a great weekend after he gets the draft to the copy editor, huh?

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  7. Look at the way that
    Jeff Greenfield provided
    "historical" context
    for this. He compares Washington, Jefferson, and Roosevelt spreading scandalous rumors about their opponents to leaking national security information!

    Even his other examples appear to be cases of comparing apples and oranges. All of this is leading up to the Press being able to say: "All Presidents do it; Bush is in fine company and just playing political hardball."

    This framing of what Bush has done should be nipped in the bud. As far as I can tell, leaking national security information to the Press to justify going to war is in a class by itself.

    PS I guess Rove threatened to piss in Greenfield's beer and make him drink it; I just can't imagine that Jeff would be so dishonest and stupid otherwise.

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  8. Anonymous8:15 PM

    Authorizing a leak does not equal declassification, no matter what the opinion of Cheney's lawyer is. Sadly, the traditional media has swallowed this misdirection hook, line and sinker--although not without pooh-poohing the tranparent (and odious) political motivation behind the act.

    Digby's got it right: you can't put a piece of paper between the leak of selected parts of the NIE to discredit Wilson and the probable political application of warrantless NSA eavesdropping. Both are excused as being the sole discretion of an unbounded Executive.

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  9. Anonymous8:38 PM

    I don't know about that, David. Reid and Schumer jumped on it quickly. "Leaker in Chief" has a nice ring to it.

    CW says that by not commenting, the WH is helping kill the story. In my view (and others'), it confirms it.

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  10. Here's how dumb the Democrats are: They are finally delivered into the Promised Land where the Mainstream Media is hot for a scandal -- Bush personally authorizing Libby's leaks -- and the Democrats are too dense to know it and/or timid to act on it.

    Um, David, did hear what (just for starters) Reid, Kerry, Durbin and Howard Dean said today?

    Their words didn’t sound “dumb,” “dense” or “timid” to me. They were right on target.

    Please. Let's not pretend no one said anything.

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  11. This is big. Thank you for keeping up with this!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous9:23 PM

    If these leaks were authorized by Cheney alone, did Cheney break the law?

    Good post AL. I call your attention to this Executive Order, with its most unusual grant of authority to the VP, my excerpt and emphasis:


    THE WHITE HOUSE
    Office of the Press Secretary

    For Immediate Release
    March 25, 2003

    EXECUTIVE ORDER 13292
    - - - - - - -

    FURTHER AMENDMENT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 12958, AS AMENDED,
    CLASSIFIED NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

    By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to further amend Executive Order 12958, as amended, it is hereby ordered that Executive Order 12958 is amended to read as follows:

    Classified National Security Information
    This order prescribes a uniform system for classifying, safeguarding, and declassifying national security information, including information relating to defense against transnational terrorism. Our democratic principles require that the American people be informed of the activities of their Government. Also, our Nations progress depends on the free flow of information. Nevertheless, throughout our history, the national defense has required that certain information be maintained in confidence in order to protect our citizens, our democratic institutions, our homeland security, and our interactions with foreign nations. Protecting information critical to our Nations security remains a priority.

    NOW, THEREFORE, by the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

    PART 1--ORIGINAL CLASSIFICATION

    Sec. 1.1. Classification Standards. (a) Information may be originally classified under the terms of this order only if all of the following conditions are met:


    (1) an original classification authority is classifying the information;
    (2) the information is owned by, produced by or for, or is under the control of the United States Government;

    (3) the information falls within one or more of the categories of information listed in section 1.4 of this order; and

    (4) the original classification authority determines that the unauthorized disclosure of the information reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security, which includes defense against transnational terrorism, and the original classification authority is able to identify or describe the damage.


    (b) Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information.
    (c) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.

    Sec. 1.2. Classification Levels. (a) Information may be classified at one of the following three levels:


    (1) "Top Secret" shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe.
    (2) "Secret" shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe.

    (3) "Confidential" shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe.


    (b) Except as otherwise provided by statute, no other terms shall be used to identify United States classified information.
    Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority. (a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:


    (1) the President and, in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President;
    (2) agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register; and

    (3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.


    Can Bush do that? I confess to finding it very weird, but lack the expertise in this area of law to do other than raise an eyebrow.

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  13. Anonymous9:25 PM

    Zack wrote: Just what are "normal declassification" procedures anyway? Does anyone have a link that explains this?

    There's this Executive Order 13292, signed by Bush on March 25, 2003.

    Here's an analysis that shows how it amends EO 12958 signed by Clinton in 1995.

    Also this, indicating the changes made to the EO 12958.

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  14. Anonymous9:30 PM

    Sorry, Hypatia - I missed your posting of EO 13292.

    You wrote: "Can Bush do that?"

    Thank you. I needed a good laugh today.

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  15. David, you’ve made up your mind that there’s nothing Democrats can do or say that would bring you to support them, and you insult them every chance you get. Fine. Go form your third party.

    Kerry made several good statements on Hardball regarding credibility of Bush on this issue that were right on target, and all you can do is insult him as being “underhanded” without even telling us what he said that deserves that smear

    And here’s DNC chairman Howard Dean, "The fact that the president was willing to reveal classified information for political gain and put the interests of his political party ahead of Americas security shows that he can no longer be trusted to keep America safe"

    Harry Reid: “In light of today’s shocking revelation, President Bush must fully disclose his participation in the selective leaking of classified information. The American people must know the truth.”

    And Chuck Shumer: "The more we hear, the more it is clear this goes way beyond Scooter Libby. At the very least, President Bush and Vice President Cheney should fully inform the American people of any role in allowing classified information to be leaked."

    And Durbin was on C-Span making damning statements as well.

    In short, they did not ignore this issue as you implied and I think that your smears on them today for being “dense” “timid” and “dumb” are unjustified. You won’t even wait to see how they handle this issue.

    I’m sure your imaginary little “third party” would have handled it much better. You win. I concede defeat. Your imaginary party always out performs the parties we have in the real world.

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  16. Anonymous9:34 PM

    ej writes: Sorry, Hypatia - I missed your posting of EO 13292.

    We were posting virtually simultaneously. :)

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  17. Anonymous9:44 PM

    There's something else that doesn't add up.

    If Cheney and Bush really did authorize this, and it was a special, one-time deal, and Libby double checked the legality with Addington, you'd think that Scooter would make sure that his friend Miller published it. But, as far as I can tell, she didn't.

    I have serious doubts that this went down the way it has been described today.

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  18. Anonymous9:47 PM

    If Cheney authorized Libby to leak before the was this does sound illegal, as the questionable Presidential order allowing the Vice President to declassify was only written in March of 2003.

    So serial illegal leaks for partisan political purposes by the VP? Might get interesting.

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  19. Anonymous9:54 PM

    If this is the great story everone here has been praying for, no, make that hoping for, expect the public (not the media) to respond: "Wolf? You say there really is a wolf this time? Ugh-huh. Well, we'll see."

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  20. Anonymous9:55 PM

    Where the tide has to turn is not in the Senate---those useless idiots can say what they like (sorry to offend any party sensibilities, but I have never seen such a bunch of feckless political numbskulls sitting in the middle of a scandal Eden---reach out in almost any direction and you can grab something nasty to take with you to the 2006 polls). The House is where we need some stiffening of Democratic spines. This is where impeachment starts. It is not so much that informal selective leaking is illegal---that would be a hard one to carry, IMHO---but that digging through its surface would bring the entire Iraq casus belli fraud writhing into the light. That's the stuff of impeachment, if the House is willing to do their job as opposed to addled and dopey from shooting up K Street "donations".

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  21. Please insult me more carefully in the future.

    I did misread that one sentence, David. Sorry. It was not intentional.

    It’s just for once the Democrats did a credible job of responding to an issue, and all you can do is insult them -- rather than dealing with the substantive aspects of this new development.

    I’m sure the Democrats’ response won’t satisfy me, but this sure gives them a valuable opportunity to further the NSA issue.

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  22. Two questions:
    - if this somehow comes out as all being legal, why have we not heard about this before now? If there was nothing wrong, why would they not say that?
    - if this is how it happened, then why , like Laughing Gravy said, would the administration say "they would no longer be in this administration"?

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  23. Exactly what is the problem here? The President can declassify what he wants.

    From the spy plane and satellite photos used to prove the US case concerning Russian missiles to the UN to all the materials used in Powell's pre war speech before the UN, these are all materials the president decided to declassify to make the case for a war.

    In this case, Joe Wilson had started lying like a rug to the press and the President declassified some intelligence to rebut Wilson's claims. Under a request from the Senate looking into the Wilson claims and other pre war intelligence, Bush declassified even more of the Intelligence Estimate at issue and the resulting Senate report gutted Wilson's claims.

    It does not surprise me in the least that Libby revealed the authorization for his disclosure of these materials to a prosecutor who was trying to pin any crime he could on him including illegal disclosure of classified materials. However, with this authority on the record, the prosecutor declined to file such charges.

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  24. Anonymous11:42 PM

    funny - was just reading the thread and thinking to myself, "How refreshing, none of the stupid wingnut talking points from our "copy and paste" trolls"

    And the I scroll paste one -- honestly, never read them, but someone else responded to the troll's obvious lie...

    Thankfully, "nothing to see here" always refers to the crap that our resident troll dumps into the thread.

    Rarely are the comments from this trolls "clipboard" accurate or honest and most of the time they do not even apply to the discussion.

    Looks like more people are seeing this too.... No need to jump up on a little soapbox to encourage more "copy and paste" talking points.

    Gratefully, most seem to just keep on scrollin'... Nothin' to see here...

    We all know who I am refering to.

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  25. Anonymous11:48 PM

    I think my "problem here," Bart, is that, if this is true (more on that later), the White House:
    (1) Knowingly released information which led to the exposure of the identity of an undercover CIA operative
    (2) Did so in order to promote and forward an, at best, disingenuous, and at worst blood thirsty agenda with regards to the perception of Saddam's ownership and/or capability to produce WMD
    (3) Instead of attacking Joe Wilson's credibility or the veracity of his reserach in Niger, they went after his wife and completely deflected his story, which in fact turned out to be true: Saddam did not attempt to purchase Uranium in Niger, as had been claimed by a highly dubious source (Italian intelligence? I forget a lot of the details).
    (4) It is implied in this story that the WH intentionally downplayed the (as it turns out, also true) evidence to the contrary as regards the claims of Saddam and WMD
    (5) Felt no compulsion about then acting extremely self-righteous and again engaging in some bald-faced and completely shameless lying to the American public, Congress, and everyone in earshot about wanting to "get to the bottom of this", or as laughing gravy reminded me above [Scott McClellan speaking][President Bush has] made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it [the 'outing' of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame], they would no longer be in this administration."

    There are many other reasons to be upset about this event, this story, this sad pockmark of governmental misbehavior, if it is true. For you to imply, now, three years after the fact, that there is nothing wrong with the President of the United States willingly endangering the lives of United States intelligence operatives during a time of armed conflict for reasons not compellingly related to national security, is well beneath your usual standards, Bart.

    Having said all that, however, I am not entirely sure that this is not another Rovian "bait and switch." The discredited Bush DWI, the forged National Guard report - if he can someehow get those out and make the discredited messenger the story instead of his boss' misdoings, how is he not doing that here? Don't you think we are about four days away from learning that LIbby was secretly orchestrating that DHS teenage porno ring, or maybe running all those meeth labs that the drug companies are funding becasue they sell 3 Billion dollars of the cold medicine they need to make the shit, or some other nonsense like that coming out in the Washington Times?

    Damn I miss Hunter Thompson.

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  26. Anonymous11:51 PM

    sorry for all the typos, hit "publish" instead of preview

    also funny that my post ended up under the one above it.

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  27. Anonymous12:22 AM

    Ender said,"BushCo sees nothing wrong with declassifying information to serve themselves but when the NYTs finally reports a story, told to them by a whistle blower in an effort to bring BushCo's illegal spying activity to light, BushCo sicks the State police apparatus on them and accuses them of treason!"

    Many blogs, in both posts and comments, have compared G.W.Bullsh to King George III, in his efforts to expand pResidential powers to monarchical proportions. I have commented elsewhere that this is a gross understatement. In the case of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, he has far exceeded even George III's limits, by nullifying the habeas corpus principle of British Common Law. Wikipedia shows that principle to go back at least as far as 1305, so Bullsh is turning the clock of jurisprudence back 700 years, not a mere 230.
    Ender's observation takes us back even further. The idea that a law can be valid while applying to one group and not another surely has been repudiated in any civilized society since ancient times. Except, of course in totalitarian regimes. So, Bush is attacking not only the constitution, but rights which predate the American Revolution by several centuries.
    Sadly, citizens of the rest of the English-speaking world, with histories of social evolution, are now better protected than citizens of the U.S.
    I'm glad to be posting this from Canada, but I feel profound sympathy for what you are going through right now. This is a crucial time in U.S. history to be sure, but have no doubt that the outcome will have global and generational repercussions.
    Sad. But true.

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  28. Anonymous12:52 AM

    Notwithstanding any claim by Addington or Libby that Bush or Cheney could authorize the identification of Ms. Wilson as a CIA agent under cover, the law is otherwise. 50 USC Section 421 (which is a provision of the National Security Act, as amended) provides that "whoever" wrongfully discloses the identity of a covert agent is guilty of the crime. There is no exception to the 'whoever' for the president or vice-president. The president's Executive Order No. 13292 expressly provides in Section 6.2(c) that nothing in the executive order limits the protection afforded any information by other provisions of law, including the National Security Act of 1947, as amended. There may be ways in which the president can identify the agent, but it would seem that the off-hand way suggested by Libby's testimony is not one of them.

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  29. it seems pretty clear that declassifying national security information for the purpose of smearing one's political opponents is abuse of power.

    The party in power ran a campaign in 2004 based on the idea that the single largest threat to American security was the possibility that the opposition party in this country might come to power.

    If you believe that -- and true believers like Bart do -- and you believe in the doctrine of unified executive power -- and true believers do -- then it's not 'abuse of power', it's 'defense of the realm'.

    Which is why they were intercepting in bulk, without any warrant, communication between Americans without any connection to foreign powers, but hostile to the party in power.

    It's only a matter of time before we find out which Democrats were wiretapped, which opposition groups were monitored.

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  30. For an excellent analysis on whether Bush declassified this
    niE, whether he was allowed to do so, and whether he broke the law, see Benjamin Hellie's posting @ Leiter Reports.

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  31. Terrorism expert Larry C. Johnson: George Bush did not leak to protect America. He leaked to cover his ass. That, my friends, is the definition of a coward.

    Larry also provides a keen analysis of the NIE and how Bush cherry-picked it and fed it to the maws of waiting journalistic apes.

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  32. Anonymous1:43 AM

    "We all know who I am refering to."
    This "anonymous" seems to believe that merely saying "troll" and "cut and paste" makes him a member of the club. Any astute reader knows that a somewhat higher level of discourse is required. Sorry Charlie, as a fellow non-member I feel free to point out your error.

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  33. Anonymous3:07 AM

    Everything depends on what physical documents were shown, if any, and what exactly was said and when.

    I have always been suspicious that at any stage of the game from October 2002 on the forged Niger/Iraq documents would have been great props for waving around at a meeting with a reporter; they would make an impression even if all that was seen were the official Niger logo on the stationary and maybe one item that could be confirmed such as the correct name of a current official. Cheney and Libby wouldn't actually have to say anything except, "We've got the evidence!" The documents might never have been actually used but there are many ways to play the game.

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  34. Anonymous3:24 AM

    I saw V is for Vendetta and it was truly thrilling, highly entertaining, and a movie of ideas. I strongly urge everyone to see it immediately before it leaves the theaters.

    Also, here is a link (hopefully) to a trailer for another movie I have been told is terrific.

    why we fight

    Also, I read today that a new bill authorizes the government to build 125 new nuclear bombs a year.

    Are you all in favor of that?

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous3:38 AM

    Hopes were dashed. It still doesn't work. Can someone please tell me what I am doing wrong? I am sorry for reprinting those articles but I can't get links to work.

    This is what I did. What was wrong?

    First I put an sideways v, then next to it I put an a, then a space, then href than next to it an = sign then a " then http://www.songclassics.com/why we fight/" then next to it I put a sideways v going in the other direction then the title why we fight then the two sideways v's surrounding /a.

    The blue thing came up, but when I clicked it in my last post, it said page not available.

    Thanks!

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  36. Anonymous4:22 AM

    Sorry people but it's time to look past the trees and see the forest. This is simply another nail in the coffin of documents and testimony that Bush and admin lied to get us into war.

    As an analogy: If a thief steals a car no one particularly cares how he made the lockpick to do it.

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  37. Anonymous4:29 AM

    I just read Glenn's post and Murray Waas' article. And others.

    If you add 2+2 and you get 5, then something doesn't add up.

    But if you add 2+2 and you get over 100,000 people dying, including thousands of American soldiers and countless innocent women and children civilians because of delberately faulty addition, don't you get murder?

    Also, hasn't the time has come for this country to revisit its relationship with Bob Woodward and begin a thorough investigation into who and what this person really is?

    Finally, it seems Mr. Fitzpatrick has stumbled into some very important stuff. Is it proper for him to not pursue it and to limit his investigation to whether or not Libby told a lie under oath?

    What would be the point of that? Does anyone really care if Libby is punished for telling a lie when such vital information concerning other matters has now come out?

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  38. Anonymous4:32 AM

    Albert Gonzales at a press conference today was asked if the government had the right to eavesdrop on purely domestic communications (domestic to domestic) without a warrant.

    His response was that he would not rule that out.

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  39. Anonymous4:45 AM

    John Dean was on Olberman today and said that when a President can claim the authority to do anything he wants and there is nobody who can check him we are not living in a Democracy.

    His implication was that it was the other "D".

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  40. Anonymous4:52 AM

    anon:

    My suspicion is that Reagan knew most of the illegal actions associated w/ IranContra.

    You can suspect anything you want, but you do so at risk of your own credibility when there is no evidence to support your suspicions.

    I absolutely believe Reagen did not lie when he said he didn't know, and seeing now how rogue elements operate so easily in our Government, it's even easier to understand how it's perfectly reasonable that he did not know.

    Nancy Reagan is said to not be willing to attend any function where Oliver North is because she is so infuriated that he has made that false assertion.

    Now tell me.....Who seems more likely to be a liar to you: Ronald Reagan or Oliver North?

    Not even close.

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  41. Anonymous5:28 AM

    Zack said...
    David, you’ve made up your mind that there’s nothing Democrats can do or say that would bring you to support them, and you insult them every chance you get. Fine. Go form your third party.


    Gosh Zack, this is so untypically unfair of you. David has not made up his mind to any such thing as can be readily seen when reading his posts.

    I seem to recall that David Shaughnessy has praised Feingold in more than one post.

    David clearly would support anyone on the issues alone regardless of party.

    Non-partisan people are those most in despair at the recent actions of Democrats, because issue only people are flailing around for someone to forcefully speak the truth and finding nobody (but Feingold) is doing that.

    News reports after Kerry's speech (which I did not hear) said that he was now seriously considering supporting Feingold's censure motion.

    SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING?

    Please. It would be one thing if he said he was in favor of actual impeachment, but he didn't. He can't even work up the courage (before checking out a few more polls) to come out in full support of the censure motion?

    THIS is what you want us to support, and tell us if we don't buy it, to form a third party?

    Isn't it rather that you happen to be a Democrat than that David will not support any Democrat?

    In my opinion, he is always right on the money in his conclusions.

    I also believe that this is the single most explosive development so far and if Democrats had not allowed the press to pretty much dominate the debate right out of the box (tsk tsk Mr. President, but after all, he didn't do anything illegal although it could be said he acted unethically), they would have been able to pretty much seal this Administration's fate.

    This has nothing to do with acting unethcially, which is the only charge the MSM is willing to raise as a possible fallout from this new information.

    Many Americans have come to expect that politicians act unethically. They have not come to expect that those same politicians are acting in ways that destroy the Consitutional Republic they are not at all willing to see destroyed.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous6:17 AM

    Nick noted earlier a list of reasons that the Plame outing was wrong. Let's not forget that Plame-Wilson was specifically working on gathering intelligence on Iran's WMD programs, the focus of their new crusade. What could she say now, I wonder?

    Davis X Machina noted that "It's only a matter of time before we find out which Democrats were wiretapped, which opposition groups were monitored.

    I've only been catching up on politics in the US over the last 6 months (I'm in Canada, too) but I remember reading somewhere how much was made of the speed of the GOP spin/attack/damcon team in the '04 election. In light of suggestions that the wiretap program goes back further than that, how much notice did their response teams really have and how did they get it?

    One last question: how many instances of unilateral declassification by Bush/Cheney are now on record?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous6:41 AM

    notherbob2, your a maroon...

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous6:46 AM

    On the earlier topic of Kerry and having a spine, from Raw Story.

    Now if he'd back Feingold as well as he defends himself...

    ReplyDelete
  45. EWO,

    My response to David goes back to a debate several posts ago where he disagreed with me and more importantly, Glenn Greenwald. Glenn disagreed with David who briefly left the group.

    I’m glad he’s back, but my response to him was an attempt not to get sidetracked into Democrat-bashing on the one day they actually made the right responses. I didn’t think that would be constructive because I find this new development very important.

    David has raised the correct point just now (which I raised yesterday with links to Digby) that if we can’t trust Bush not to use national security information to smear political opponents, can we be sure he’s not doing the same with information from a secretive
    NSA program?

    That point is easily understood by the public, and Bush-operatives and trolls are going to have a hard time confusing this issue with legal B.S. and spin. Bush’s previous statements about finding the leakers are now exposed as absurd, and his press secretary’s repeated assurances have now be proven to be totally false.

    Who knows, maybe the public will take the lead on this issue, and when the timid Democrats see popular support maybe they will work up the courage to find their principles. This development also undercuts the effectiveness of the smears from Rove and the propaganda machine, which ultimately rely on the credibility of Bush, and our ability to “trust him” to not abuse his power.

    This development shows we can’t trust him not to abuse his power, and the public is finally beginning to understand that. Once the Democrats understand that the smear machine has lost much of its power, they will become more and more courageous in pursuing this issue – at least they have no excuses not to anyway.

    Joe Conason has a good round up of administration quotes denying involvement. And Robert Parry raises some interesting questions about what Bush told Fitzgerald and what that might mean in this investigation.

    This is the final nail in Bush’s credibility and “trust” and that’s ultimately what he’s relying on to avoid oversight in this scandal.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous10:17 AM

    2 questions now for Bush or Cheney or anyone else speaking for the administration (leaving it to the fine legal minds to add the necessary clarifiers and qualifiers to make each undodgeable):

    1. Did you declassify documents as Libby has testified?

    2a. If not, can you assure us that neither the president nor the vice president did so?

    2b. If so, why did you allow the nation to waste so much of its time and treasure to get you to simply tell the truth?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous10:33 AM

    I consider most of the details irrelevant. The Nixon impeachment articles included one charge of leaking classified information for political purposes. Full stop.

    What Bush/Cheney did here (and probably numerous other times too) was leak classified information for political purposes. Full stop.

    If it was good enough for an article of impeachment back in the 70s, then it is good enough for an article of impeachment here in the 00s. Same Constitution, same office, same offense.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous10:35 AM

    this may be off topic but
    wasnt it miller that went to jail?they knew she didnt break the law and allowed her to be put in jail for so long for their own illegal actions?
    what recourse could she have?
    and again apologies if this is off topic but it seems that if this issue was used it might bring the democrats some support for the working man?
    you have a CIA agent whose career is destroyed by president and you have a reporter jailed because of manipulation from white house
    br3n

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous10:37 AM

    if we can’t trust Bush not to use national security information to smear political opponents, can we be sure he’s not doing the same with information from a secretive
    NSA program?


    I think it is clear that Bush IS using NSA-garnered information against political opponents. This is the only explanation, other than craven dereliction of duty, for why so many Dems cower and hide at any suggestion of censuring, let alone impeaching Bush. They cower and cower and cower on important issues because Bush has dirt on them, thanks to the NSA.

    I want the DC toilet flushed and ALL the current politicos (Feingold can stay because he has showed himself immune to personal careerist considerations), both parties, sent down the drain with the toilet paper used to wipe the nation's ass.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous10:53 AM

    If a president is willing to use secret national security information to smear poltical opponents, what are the odds that the same president would eavesdrop on political opponents if he had the opportunity?

    uuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

    And what if he stole 2 elections to become pResident of the monkey palace?

    Would the same president disregard the constitution and the will of the people, lie this nation into a war of conquest, and then use secret national security information to smear poltical opponents?

    GREAT CRIMES DEMAND EVEN GREATER CRIMES!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous10:54 AM

    Questions:
    Even if the president can declassify, can he out a CIA agent's identity?
    If Bush didn't release Plames name and if our VP did not, then isn't Libby guilty of a serious crime?
    If Bush DID isn't he guilty of a cime?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Did you declassify documents as Libby has testified?

    The response will be: “We can’t comment on an ongoing investigation.”

    Yet, during the course of this investigation Press Secretary McClellan has commented repeatedly to issue denials and to suggest that it was absurd for the press to raise such questions.:

    “The President expects everyone in his administration to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. No one would be authorized to do such a thing."

    "We don't have any information [about the leak] that's been brought to our attention beyond what we've seen in the media reports. I've made that clear."

    "We have nothing beyond those media reports to suggest there is White House involvement."

    "The leak of classified information, yes, you're absolutely right, can compromise sources and methods. That's why the President takes it very seriously, and we've always taken it very seriously."

    "If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration,"


    They’ll comment on an ongoing investigation when they damn well feel like it, and when they want to cover up, they say they can’t answer because it’s under investigation.

    They get to have it both ways.

    ReplyDelete
  53. nick said...

    I think my "problem here," Bart, is that, if this is true (more on that later), the White House:

    (1) Knowingly released information which led to the exposure of the identity of an undercover CIA operative

    (3) Instead of attacking Joe Wilson's credibility or the veracity of his reserach in Niger, they went after his wife and completely deflected his story, which in fact turned out to be true: Saddam did not attempt to purchase Uranium in Niger, as had been claimed by a highly dubious source (Italian intelligence? I forget a lot of the details).


    Show me the proof. So far, the prosecutor has not been able to generate a case for this oft claimed crime.

    What his investigation did show was that several people and the press were discussing Plame as the person who recommended sending her hubby to Niger long before Wilson started his media campaign against the war. So much for the revenge motive.

    The investigation and other press accounts also showed that Plame was hardly undercover. While her position was classified, what she did was apparently well known. This is probably the main reason why the prosecutor has not pressed charges against anyone for blowing her non-existant cover.

    Finally, the Wilson story did not end up being true. His own report details how a former prime minister of Niger reported that Iraq had sent a trade delegation to Niger to start new trade. The ex-prime minister figured the Iraqia were again seeking yellow cake Uranium as they had in the 90s because Niger doesn't export anything else but dates.

    The portion of the Senate report on pre war intelligence covering Wilson's trip actually stated that Wilson helped confirm that Saddam was after yellow cake.

    For you to imply, now, three years after the fact, that there is nothing wrong with the President of the United States willingly endangering the lives of United States intelligence operatives during a time of armed conflict for reasons not compellingly related to national security, is well beneath your usual standards, Bart.

    Dude, you need to reread the reports on this. Libby claims that the VP told him that the POTUS authorized him to speak about certain sections of the intelligence estimate on deep background with the press. These provisions had nothing at all to do with Plame, who is not even mentioned in the Estimate.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Davis X Machina said...

    it seems pretty clear that declassifying national security information for the purpose of smearing one's political opponents is abuse of power


    How exactly is releasing parts of an Intelligence Estimate, which is the collective opinion of the entire government intelligence community, as "smear?"

    If this Estimate discredited Joe Wilson, then perhaps the problem is with Mr. Wilson's credibility.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous11:44 AM

    Bart said:

    Dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

    Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

    Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt.

    Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur?

    Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?


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    ReplyDelete
  56. The Left is Lying

    On the other hand: ...Bush failed to meet the implicit publicity requirements in Order 13292 for declassification of the NIE. So he did not in fact declassify the NIE. Rather, he instructed his lieutenant to go blabbing classified information around town. That's illegal.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous12:10 PM

    You know, I see the same syndrome here over and over. Because I read some rightwing blogs, I have some perspective on issues. What kind of person carefully limits his political input so that he ends up with a crazed view of the world? Hey, it’s a free country, but some of these idiots feel the need to burst into print and run in traffic yelling: “Our President is a liar, a thief and evil beyond belief!” Like a wolf pack becoming excited over a sheep-scent, they feed each other’s paranoia on their blogs until they are howling at the moon.
    Is this fun? Many of these howlers complain of ruined days when reality punctures their balloons. How many balloons launched on this very blog have been punctured by reality? Don’t these people learn?
    It seems to me that a bright person, seeing this process work out over and over, would become more cautious and seek other sources of information before becoming cranked on any given issue. For example Before reading the NYT and indicting the Democrats for not taking strong action, one might read this.Now, one might not agree with that article, but it would certainly keep one from running off a cliff over the issue. Then one might read this.
    Instead, some people read the NYT or a diary on Kos and run around with their hair on fire over every puffed-up event that the usual suspects enveigh upon. Is doing that fun? I guess I just don’t get it.

    ReplyDelete
  58. God damn, is there anything the President could do to upset his supporters? Digby dug this up:

    REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: So he could do it for political reasons and that would be -- and no one can second-guess that if he wanted to?

    ALBERTO GONZALES, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: This president could make the decision to declassify information based upon national security reasons.

    NADLER: He could do it for political reasons if he wanted to and no one could second guess that because he's the commander in chief, right?

    GONZALES: The president is going to make the determination as to what's in the best interest of the country.


    So now the President can selectively release classified information for his political purposes, but any classified information that the President doesn't approve of being released can be prosecuted criminally.

    What the hell? How can people not see that they are laying the groundwork for tyranny by excusing such actions? There is no need to even make a slippery slope argument, since by the logic offered by Yoo and Gonzalez there is nothing the President can't do so long as he says it's for the sake of national security.

    "Mr. President, did you authorize extrajudicial executions of American citizens?"

    "Well, after 9/11, I told myself that I would do everything I could to protect America. So ... I authorized the Terrorist Elimination Program. I won'd apologize for defending America." (applause)

    I'm starting to understand how Doremus Jessup must have felt when talking to his son that had thrown in with Windrip.

    The pattern that emerges from these ad hoc excuses for the administration's actions, the unprecedented level of secresy, and the repeated attempts to act without oversight is that it is unwilling to be held accountable by the public and other branches of gov't for its actions. The administration, were it to have its way, would operate a shadow gov't where the only things the public would know would be what the administration wants it to know.

    That's not democracy.

    "Democracy dies behind closed doors." - Federal Circuit Court Judge Damon Keith

    ReplyDelete
  59. 'Now tell me.....Who seems more likely to be a liar to you: Ronald Reagan or Oliver North?'

    *laugh*

    If you think a Lt. Col. was in charge of running a major foreign policy operation during the Reagan years....well, I think those rose-colored glasses must be fairly comfortable.

    Reagan didn't want to be bothered with details, esp. during the years after the Alzheimer's had started. But if you think he didn't check off on a major foreign policy initiative such as selling weapons to Iran, I'd have to say you're more than a little bit naive.

    But of course, what Nancy Reagan thinks should be taken as gospel.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous12:28 PM

    From notherbob2 at 12:10PM:

    "Instead, some people read the NYT or a diary on Kos and run around with their hair on fire over every puffed-up event that the usual suspects enveigh upon."

    My word. The commentator is actually making sense again. I'll kick myself later, but I have to agree there is an occasional tendency by some to take these stories and run with them to the point of (at least rhetorical) hysteria.

    One should point out that (a) these stories are often of substance rather than philosophical import, and (b) our counterparts on the right-side of the isle rarely address the fundamental issues at stake, preferring ad homimin attacks or their own hysteronics.

    That said, and the fact this Administration has proven especially callous, inept, incompetent, craven, prone-to-cronyism, and philosophically bankrupt, a bit of hysteria on these issues isn't necessarily unwarranted. Keep in mind this is a President who, on more than one occasion, has stated he believes himself directed by God itself...and has a still-functioning nuclear arsenal at his fingertips.

    Do I seriously think George W Bush is insane or hearing voices? Not really. But neither do I think he has as firm a grip on reality as the rest of us (being a "Bubble Boy" and all).

    Do I seriously think George W Bush would knowingly launch a nuclear strike at another country? I sincerely hope not, but neither am I convinced he has the emotional, philosophical, moral, or intellectual strictures against committing such a move.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous12:34 PM

    Oddly enough, all of this may have helped the Prez by taking the focus off the really frightening story of day: the fact that Bush believes he can wiretap domestic to domestic phone calls without a warrant. The Plame story is sexier, but the wiretap story is much much bigger.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous12:45 PM

    From bart at 11:33AM:

    "Show me the proof. So far, the prosecutor has not been able to generate a case for this oft claimed crime."

    I believe Fitzgerald's briefs stated the reason he couldn't conclusively bring charges under this crime was because the waters had been so muddied by conflicting statements from Libby and the rest that the prejury charges brought to date are the result. This doesn't bring the case to an end (as his convening a new Grand Jury shows) and we may yet see charges that address the actual crime.

    bart continues:

    "What his investigation did show was that several people and the press were discussing Plame as the person who recommended sending her hubby to Niger long before Wilson started his media campaign against the war. So much for the revenge motive."

    Overlooking that that was just *one* element of the broader story, this doesn't dismiss a 'revenge' motive as it perhaps suggests the Beltway media a gullable pack who'll eat up talking points these days with little investigation on their part.

    bart continues:

    "The investigation and other press accounts also showed that Plame was hardly undercover. While her position was classified, what she did was apparently well known. This is probably the main reason why the prosecutor has not pressed charges against anyone for blowing her non-existant cover."

    One should distinguish between what is 'well known' inside US 395 (aka the Beltway) and the rest of the world. Mrs. Wilson's position and work were not merely classified, but her NOC cover was still very much in force (whatever the Beltway cocktail circuit may or may not have 'known').

    I recommend people check out Larry Johnson's blog NO QUARTER at http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/ for a more informed discussion of Mrs. Wilson's cover and the consequences of this mess.

    And before dismissing Mr. Johnson as a left-wing partisan, I'd point out he is actually a confessed center-right and has worked in both the CIA and State Department in managerial capacity. He knows quite a bit more about these issues than those of us who get our views of intelligence work from '24' or 'Alias'.

    In short, bart, try again.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous12:50 PM

    From bart at 11:37AM:

    "If this Estimate discredited Joe Wilson, then perhaps the problem is with Mr. Wilson's credibility."

    First, its Ambassador Wilson.(you have a problem with titles, don't you?)

    Second, the Estimate in question was reportedly so riddled with exaggerations or caveats or border-line distortions, treating it as a serious analysis is a bit laughable.

    Then again, if Ambassador Wilson's work was so shoddy and his creditability so easy to question, why 'out' his wife and force her work to close down? Any answer for that one?

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous12:56 PM

    Classic Bart

    Second, the Estimate in question was reportedly so riddled with exaggerations or caveats or border-line distortions, treating it as a serious analysis is a bit laughable.

    Reported by whom?

    I bet you have a list of Communists in the State Department too.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous1:15 PM

    From aj at 12:56PM:

    "Reported by whom?

    "I bet you have a list of Communists in the State Department too."

    Er, aj? That comment came from me, not Bart. I was actually responding to an earlier point of his.

    And I'm trying to search out the old links to this point, but not having any success.

    To the thread: please disregard that bit of my last comment until I can find my links to back it up. Last thing I want is to be mirroring the Administration or right-side's tendency to state rumor as fact.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous1:49 PM

    cynic librarian

    good cites.

    enjoyed reading them.


    re: larry johnson

    larry johnson has said that what bush and co did in misrepresenting to the american people the need for an invasion of iraq

    is similar to

    what the cia would do in some of its covert operations designed to influence politics in a foreign country.


    think about that!

    guys in the whitehouse, dod, state department, cia, (and probably AEI, too) who knew how to do cia-type manipulations of a country's politics

    used that approach on their own people -- that's us.

    in other words

    between 2001 and 2003 the united states got "covert-actioned" by its own president and vice-president and their operatives.

    and we are letting these guys do telephone snooping?

    ReplyDelete
  67. The troll HWSNBN hallucinates again:

    If this Estimate discredited Joe Wilson, then perhaps the problem is with Mr. Wilson's credibility.

    Ummmm, in the reality-based world, the NIEs were the things that had problems with credibility. Wilson was spot-on in his analysis and reporting.

    But to add insult to injury, the maladministration "cherry-picked" the parts of the NIE they liked and left out the parts they didn't like. That's intellectual dishonesty ... not that a troll like HWSNBN would recognise it as such, or be bothered by it if he did.

    That's what the "smear" is all about: To discredit critics unjustly (unjustly because a fuller release of the NIE would show that there was disagreement on the NIE, that others participating in the input to the NIE agreed with Wilson [correctly so, as it turns out], and that contrary to what Libby was leaking, the point he claimed was a "key" point wasn't such at all).

    But the maladministration went beyond that dishonest but at least somewhat on-topic smear to also leak ad hominem criticism of Wilson, and to damage his wife's career (and safety). That's when the smearing got really ugly and vicious..... But that kind of stuff is just fine and dandy with our (alleged) exemplar of honesty and integrity here, the troll HWSNBN.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  68. (1) Knowingly released information which led to the exposure of the identity of an undercover CIA operative

    Proof? They admitted it (not to mention that various reporters corroborated this leak.

    (3) Instead of attacking Joe Wilson's credibility or the veracity of his reserach in Niger, they went after his wife and completely deflected his story, which in fact turned out to be true: Saddam did not attempt to purchase Uranium in Niger, as had been claimed by a highly dubious source (Italian intelligence? I forget a lot of the details).

    Proof? It's been in the papers for a year or so! HWSNBN likes to pretend that the realworld doesn't exist.

    Don't bother. You can cite as many articles as you want, but while any rational person can figure it out, HWSNBN won't see what he doesn't want (or admit) to see(ing).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous2:03 PM

    It seems to me that a bright person, seeing this process work out over and over, would become more cautious and seek other sources of information before becoming cranked on any given issue.

    Remarkable insight, coming from a maroon...

    Guess I will have to consider the source...

    ...just more crapola

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous2:13 PM

    I'll kick myself later, but I have to agree there is an occasional tendency by some to take these stories and run with them to the point of (at least rhetorical) hysteria.

    uuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    The rest of the world knows that chimpy stole the 2000 election.

    Chimpy used 9/11 to manipulate the public and destroy our constitution -- and his administraytion ALLOWED the tragic events to happen in the first place.

    Chimpy lied this nation into a war of conquest and then committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in the process.

    Chimpy and gang outed a CIA operative to protect their lies -- this is treason.

    He ran for re-election in 2004 as a "war president" even though an objective review of the facts shows he went AWOL from TANG when it was his turn to serve.

    Best evidence is that the 2004 election was stolen -- the court cases are going forward in some areas, were buried in others. The MSM refuses to cover and the US no longer has free, open, verifiable elections.

    Chimpy proclaimed he has a "mandate" and immediately when on a Social Security Bamboozle Tour -- lying about the most effective federal program of all time.

    Chimpy broke his oath of office when he proclaimed that "there is not Social Security Trust Fund." It is in the constitution that the US must honor this debt.

    Billions and Billions are being stolen from the federal treasury -- mostly by the military industrial complex. Its just "business as usual" to the chimperor.

    Chimpy and gang lied about the costs of their medical and prescription drug program.

    Chimpy proclaims that that no laws apply to him -- he is a "war president" (see point above).

    Now they admit that they will spy on US citizens without warrents.

    I could go on and on, point is -- REASONABLE PEOPLE SHOULD BE CONCERNED!

    But keep drinking the kool-aide if you want. Gratefully I know that the visitors to this site have mostly had enough of this.

    When you put down those that want to see positive change -- YOU ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS!

    But sprew your hate and nonsense if you like.... HA HA HA HA HA HA!

    You are wasting your time here!

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous2:15 PM

    eyes wide open,

    I am expecting a reply to my post in the previous thread.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Larry johnson has said that what bush and co did in misrepresenting to the american people the need for an invasion of iraq

    is similar to

    what the cia would do in some of its covert operations designed to influence politics in a foreign country.


    How can anyone think otherwise? This administration has payed journalists to shill, let a fake journalist into the White House press briefings for two years without a security clearance, produced fake news for domestic release, produced fake news for foreign release, has staged and scripted pr events, has potentially considered bombing foreign news organizations, has threated American press members with the charge of treason, has used language in a fashion that can't be called anything but Orwellian, has attempted to create false realities through fabricated facts and figures, has lied and distorted information in nearly every aspect of governance of the country.

    The Office of Strategic Influence was created to use propaganda to support the war on terror. It wassupposed to be targeted at foreign countries (enemy and foe alike) but how can that sort of propaganda not turn around and be used against Americans. Its not like they were issuing statements saying, "hey, we're just blowing smoke up country x's ass, take it with a grain of salt."

    What we have seen from this administration is a fundamental disregard for the truth. This is relfected most succintly in it being arguably the most anti-science administration in American history (last November a poll found Bush had a 6% approval rating among scientists/engineers). Science is the best method that humanity has of determining what is true - yet the Bush administration has made science the object of political evaluation. It has thus attempted to politicize truth.

    Anyone who wants to know how disastrous that can be need only google Lysenko.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous2:34 PM

    Yankee

    Sorry .. I didn't see the end quotation mark. I thought Bart was referring to Wilson's report when he came back from Niger.

    As far as the NIE misrepresentations, I think the Carnegie Endownment for Internation Peace website has done a pretty good dissection and comparison of the White Paper vs. the NIE. The White Paper prepared for Congress was especially egregious in ignoring dissent w/in the intelligence community regarding the case for war. Hope that helps.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Instead of casting names back and forth and relegating comments like Bart's to the lunatic fringe, it might be more productive to see what socio-economic conditions create his type of subservience to authoritarian structures and need to kowtow to illusion in despite of the facts.

    An interesting article that investigates the destruction of the democratic impulse in America itself can be read here. Perhaps the following quote sums up this anti-democratic cultural submission:

    But even more than the structural realities, there is a sense of resignation, on both fronts, which confronts workers under contemporary capitalism. As Richard Sennett, in his recent book The Culture of the New Capitalism, has found, “A stereotype holds that Americans are aggressive competitors in business. Beneath this stereotype lies a different, more passive mentality. Americans of the middling sort I’ve interviewed in the past decade have tended to accept structural change with resignation, as though the loss of security at work and in schools run like businesses are inevitable: you can do little about such basic shifts, even if they hurt you.” The growing apathy toward the economic institutions to which they belong, the increasing penetration of the culture of subordination among working life, and the growing acceptance of relations of servitude and dependence lead, I think, to an overall erosion of democratic life. And it is this which, I think, is the most alarming consequence of an unfettered capitalism: the very destruction of democracy itself.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous2:42 PM

    notherbob2 said...

    "You know, I see the same syndrome here over and over. Because I read some rightwing blogs, I have some perspective on issues. What kind of person carefully limits his political input so that he ends up with a crazed view of the world? Hey, it’s a free country, but some of these idiots feel the need to burst into print and run in traffic yelling: “Our President is a liar, a thief and evil beyond belief!” Like a wolf pack becoming excited over a sheep-scent, they feed each other’s paranoia on their blogs until they are howling at the moon.
    Is this fun? Many of these howlers complain of ruined days when reality punctures their balloons. How many balloons launched on this very blog have been punctured by reality? Don’t these people learn?"



    "Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological
    weapons."
    - George W. Bush, speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 12, 2002

    The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq.
    - George W. Bush, Nov. 23, 2002

    Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent…. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
    - George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003

    We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons - the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.
    - George W. Bush, radio address, Feb. 8, 2003

    Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
    - George W. Bush, address to the U.S., March 17, 2003

    The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder.
    - George W. Bush, address to U.S., March 19, 2003

    We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them.
    - George W. Bush, NBC interview, April 24, 2003

    We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so.
    - George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 3, 2003

    I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein – because he had a weapons program.
    - George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 6, 2003

    You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two [the labs were later judged to not contain any such weapons, that they most likely were used for weather balloons]. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them.
    - George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 31, 2003

    And from the President's direct spokesman:

    If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Dec. 2, 2002

    We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003

    What we know from UN inspectors over the course of the last decade is that Saddam Hussein possesses thousands of chemical warheads, that he possesses hundreds of liters of very dangerous toxins that can kill millions of people.
    - White House spokesman Dan Bartlett, CNN interview, Jan. 26, 2003

    Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly…..All this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleisher, press briefing, March 21, 2003


    But make no mistake - as I said earlier - we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, April 10, 2003


    CNN.com

    Top Bush officials push case against Saddam

    September 8, 2002

    Citing Bush administration officials, The New York Times reported Sunday that Iraq tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes.

    The tubes, Rice said, "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous2:50 PM

    The Cherry Picking of the facts and intelligence is a part of
    "the fixing of the facts & intelligence around the policy" (See Downing Street Memos).

    Bush & Co. misled Congress and the American Public only those facts that supported a case for war. Anything else was suppressed.

    From the April 6th edition of the San Jose Mercury News:

    Libby testified "that he was specifically authorized" to disclose the key judgments of the classified NIE to Miller. Two days later, Libby met with Miller because it was thought that the NIE was "pretty definitive" against Wilson and because the vice president thought that it was "very important" for the information in the NIE to be released, court documents say.

    The
    key judgments in the intelligence estimate, however, never mention the allegation that Iraq was shopping for uranium in Niger. The full NIE, far from rebutting Wilson's conclusion, revealed that State Department intelligence experts didn't believe the allegation, either.

    During the months before the Iraq invasion, a number of news outlets published classified information about Saddam's efforts to purchase aluminum tubes for nuclear program and about Iraq's relationship to al-Qaida terrorists. Subsequent inquiries concluded that most of that information also was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous2:57 PM

    Well, gosh, guys, I'm embarrassed. I knew that I had SOME support out there, but to jump in with egregious examples of the inflamed (howling at the moon) rhetoric that I was discussing...well, just thanks! Yes, this is the sort of stuff I meant. Probably readers have had enough, though, so better get back to rational commenting. [sarcasm/humor alert]

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous2:58 PM

    WILSON (letter to the Intelligence Committee): My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself “a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs.”...I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have “debunked” the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa."

    Wilson admitted he did not know if Bush's words in the state of the union address were true or not.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous3:15 PM

    Instead of casting names back and forth and relegating comments like Bart's to the lunatic fringe, it might be more productive to see what socio-economic conditions create his type of subservience to authoritarian structures and need to kowtow to illusion in despite of the facts.

    gag me with a spoon!

    But if what you are saying is that I should consider the ramblings of these morons the words of "spiritually sick" individuals and treat them with the same empathy that I would a cancer patient.....

    Well you might have something there.

    BUT THEN THEY CHOOSE TO COME HERE AND COPY AND PASTE THEIR INANE, OFF-TOPIC, AND FREQUENTLY DISHONEST TALKING POINTS HERE!

    Give me a break.... are som people really so self-absorbed with their self-importance, ego, and pride that they really think that idiocy contributes towards a meaningful dialog?

    geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzz

    ReplyDelete
  80. But if what you are saying is that I should consider the ramblings of these morons the words of "spiritually sick" individuals and treat them with the same empathy that I would a cancer patient.....

    "Spiritually sick" is not my own words but perhaps you are onto something there. I am suggesting not so much pity--or even empathy--but understanding the source of their illusion. For, indeed, it might also be the source of your own anger and inability to realize that we're in the same boat.

    But one issue you failed to recognize from my commnet is that the issues here are much larger than just getting along with our political enemies. It's a matter of there being something seriously wrong with our society in toto. And this thing wrong with our socio-political environment will not go away if Bushco goes away.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous3:42 PM

    notherbob2 said...

    "Well, gosh, guys, I'm embarrassed. I knew that I had SOME support out there, but to jump in with egregious examples of the inflamed (howling at the moon) rhetoric that I was discussing...well, just thanks! Yes, this is the sort of stuff I meant. Probably readers have had enough, though, so better get back to rational commenting. [sarcasm/humor alert]"

    Egregious examples of the inflamed (howling at the moon rhetoric) that you were discussing. What I posted were direct quotes from Bush and his minions. Are you saying that they were speaking the inflamed howling at the moon rhetoric that you referred to?

    If so I certainly agree with you.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous4:08 PM

    But one issue you failed to recognize from my commnet is that the issues here are much larger than just getting along with our political enemies.

    Didn't miss it - just don't accept it. Not possible to "get along" with the crowd that days the constitution is just a "damned piece of paper", lies this nation into a war of conquest, proclaims to have the authority to spy on EVERYONE, steals elections, destoys free, open, verifiable elections, steals BILLIONS AND BILLIONS from the federal treasury...

    I will spare you the rant -- let's just say that the "culture of corruption," treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity make it impossible to say, "geee, can't we all just get along?"

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous4:13 PM

    And this thing wrong with our socio-political environment will not go away if Bushco goes away.

    I think you seriously underestimate the degree to which the discourse and discontent is deliberately manufactured on the right -- getting the chimperor and repubs out of power will help a great deal.

    And if we could demand accountability from the MSM, then they would not be able to create the "echo chamber" noise that was so shrill during the Clinton WH -- after all, the lying liars have had their chance, and look what they did.

    I would love to see them try to go back to screaming "unfair", "personal responsibiliy", "integrity, and "abuse of power" and "fiscal responsibility" after proving to the American public that none of this means squat when they were in charge.

    Yes, I would like to see America become a more tolerant, equitable place where meaningful dialog is respected -- but that is not our biggest issue right now.

    Its the corruption that is all enabled by the incompetence of the chimperor and his administration.

    In the end, it is all about republican corruption.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous4:33 PM

    Observations on the oddities outlined in your post, AL and a few others:

    1) It appears that BushCo believes in spin above all else; i.e. that there is no problem that is not best addressed by controlling the information and getting it out to the right outlet. Truth is of no concern, PR, spin/propaganda is the guiding principle. A business model much like that employed by the international corporations through the use of advertising.(Note: "principle" may not be the best choice of words as applied to this Trosky-type mindset.)

    2) It appears that BushCo regards its political opponents as Enemy Number One. Not the terrorist, not the state sponsors of terrorists, but "liberals" and Democrats. Rove/DeLay and others have alluded and outright stated this several times.

    If one and two above are the basic presumptions under which this crowd operates we can conclude the following:

    a. That BushCo would not hesitate to cherry pick and use information gathered under the guise of "national security" against Enemy Number One.

    b. That BushCo actually believes its own propaganda; i.e. liberal media and similar crapola.

    Thus, when one's entire reason for being is based on the paranoid notion that half this country is Enemy Number One and truth is to be avoided at all cost in favor of information control/advertising, such paranoia will eventually result in failure and exposure. Bottom line: We've turned over a rock and found something slimy that cannot withstand the bright light of close scrutiny.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous4:43 PM

    "What I posted were direct quotes from Bush and his minions."

    Wait a minute! Are YOU the "cut and paste troller" that Anonymous is always griping about?

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous4:57 PM

    notherbob2 said...

    "What I posted were direct quotes from Bush and his minions."

    Wait a minute! Are YOU the "cut and paste troller" that Anonymous is always griping about?

    Trying to change the subject notherbob2?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous5:08 PM

    In today's WaPo (via TPM):

    A senior administration official, speaking on background because White House policy prohibits comment on an active investigation, said Bush sees a distinction between leaks and what he is alleged to have done. The official said Bush authorized the release of the classified information to assure the public of his rationale for war as it was coming under increasing scrutiny.

    I assume this is another one of those statements that's directed at W's (ever dwindling) die-hard supporters rather than the general public. Point being to give the dead-enders some kind of cover to hide behind, however flimsy or pathetic.

    But my impression is that we get a somewhat higher standard of intellectual honesty from GOPers here than I've seen elsewhere. Which prompts me to ask: you guys can't actually bring yourself to buy this, can you?

    I mean some things really are just too laughable to swallow no matter what side of the political fence you're on, aren't they? Not snark; I'm genuinely curious.

    ReplyDelete
  88. anon: I never said you or anyone else had to do anything. What I did say was that your rhetoric is simply off the mark because it creates animosity rather than understanding. Why is understanding important? At the least, from your own vantage point, it gives you greater insight into how and why your oppoenent is wrong.

    Your approach is piece-meal--which is okay--but I suggest that you miss a bigger picture. This bigger picture--I think--has its roots in a socio-economic environment that creates and engenders both your own response and Bart's.

    Sure, keep on track. I hope you win this skirmish. I agree with you wholeheartedly. What I don't think you've understood, though, is the larger, strategic picture. This means--I think--that everyone's gonna put their eggs in the Dem basket, thinking that'll solve everything. It won't. It'll just put off dealing with this larger and more insidious danger facing US democracy.

    But, again, carry on--take down the emperor. And while you do, I imagine the soundtrack is the Who's "Don't Get Fooled Again."

    ReplyDelete
  89. ender: I don't think that essay will change anyone until, like you say, they "internalize" it. By posting the link and the excerpt I was hoping to give some insight into the socio-economic conditions that produce the types of rhetoric coming from Bart, no-bob, et al.

    Since, as you say, they won't get it, so much the better. That provides an important advantage in what I see as a mortal combat for more than just the democratic spirit.

    One of the strengths of the essay and the framework within which it works is that it gives a chance to work from a vantage point that the Dems are reluctant to admit. That is, they're simply playing tactical politics without providing any overall vision of what's wrong.

    It's my contention (following Sennett and others) that the bigger picture gives a view of a seriously flawed and sick socio-economic system. Of course, the Dems would never run on such a big-picture platform.

    They're simply willing to go along by opposing bits and pieces of the Rep's castoffs and miscalculations. The Reps do have that grand vision; and it's that that makes their plan so appealing to those who suffer from the anxieties and insecurities of this modern world.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Having attempted a joke at your expense, gris lobo, I owe you a shot at seriously responding to your comment. Let's keep the same rules, but step away from the situation where Bush et al spoke about WMD. Let us instead consider me going out with the boys.
    I tell my wife that I will be home at 11:00 and as a matter of fact, it is 3:30 a.m. when I come rolling in and start frying eggs in the kitchen. She awakes and tells me that I lied when I said I would be home at 11:00 and points to the clock. Open and shut? I don’t think so.
    Cutting to the chase: If, when I said I would home at 11:00, I was thinking: “I’ll do as I damn please, but if saying 11:00 gets you off my back now”, then she can rightly say that I lied. On the other hand, if I fully intended to be home at 11:00 and took dramatic steps to insure that I was home at 11:00 (hired a body guard to physically drag me home even if I protested) and car break-downs, towing, etc. kept me out until 3:30, then we can rightly say that I did not lie. Note that I still was not there at 11:00, but that is not relevant. The issue is my intent when I spoke the words. That is what makes a lie.
    So, what if I did not hire a bodyguard, but I fully and finally intended to take whatever steps turned out to be necessary for me to be home at 11:00 when I spoke?
    In real life, most of these discussions get bogged down in a discussion of what made me change my mind. If the reason is one my wife approves of, say, dropping by the church and getting involved in packaging gifts to the poor that had to be ready for distribution at dawn, then it’s OK and I did not lie. Circumstances changed. But, I should have called. We digress.
    Versus running into my old drug buddy Harry, (who suggested that he had some “good stuff” and some special movies). If that is the case and I had no intention of running into Harry when I left home, did I lie?

    Is politics different from my domestic example? Not really. Bush says we (and all of our allies) thought Saddam had WMDs. We were all wrong. It happens. Beyond being upset that our intelligence was so bad, Bush supporters are happy (well, not upset) with that. Opponents, on the other hand, assume the attitude of my wife when she senses that I ran into Harry (whether or not I actually did).
    That is why it is useless to discuss WMDs at this point. Bush detractors are like my wife in the Harry scenario. Line up 100 professors of logic and linguistics and prove that my statement was not a lie, whatever my other behavior constituted, and you will fail to convince her. With her prejudices and hindsight she knows what she knows. Ditto Bush detractors.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous6:10 PM

    Your approach is piece-meal--which is okay--but I suggest that you miss a bigger picture. This bigger picture--I think--has its roots in a socio-economic environment that creates and engenders both your own response and Bart's.

    Well that is the most self-inflated, intellectual BS, condenscending crap I have read for quite a while.

    Guess its just more of the "know-it-all" librarian philosiphy that thinks that when one has access to enough crap, they somehow become more knowledgeable and important than anyone else.

    Glad I have access to humble librarians that are willing to find out what they are talking about BEFORE they start proclaiming they have all the answers.

    Seems to me your inflexible attitude is what makes you more like Bart than me...

    But if getting up on your little soapbox makes you feel better, go ahead, keep strokin' yourself!

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous6:12 PM

    I think--that everyone's gonna put their eggs in the Dem basket, thinking that'll solve everything.

    Besides, who in their right mind thinks that all problems are going to go away just because we might get some democrats in charge. I will be grateful for a withdrawal from Iraq and an "accountability moment" for this administration's lying liars, and a return to the responsible fiscal management and security under clinton.

    It ain't like the repugs will have any credibility to stand on the sideline spewing the hate they constantly threw at clinton.

    ReplyDelete
  93. anon: you're the one stroking yourself in public in pent up rage like a chimp choking chicken in the zoo!

    But seriously: If I can get anything from the fact that you don't read anything outside the Reader's Digest Condensed version, that you like to seduce mousy librarians, and that you don't know an honest remark from a kiss your ass send-off, I guess you are about the smartest person I have ever met.

    As far as knowing everything: I think there's something to the idea that knowing that you don't know is the beginning of wisdom, as some old fool once said. The beginning of that, though, supposes that you have the ability to know that you don't know. For your sake, I'd suggest you take a refresher course in discerning the difference between ignorance and simplicty.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous7:39 PM

    Anon: 0 Cynic: 2 (the "smartest" part scores a bonus)

    ReplyDelete
  95. It appears that the President declassified this information, the declassification was public and reported on at the time, no one called this a "leak" then, and the 8 pages of the Intelligence Estimate which provided the information passed from Libby to the NYT on deep background were made public a week later.

    I won't hold my breath waiting for the apologies to roll in for this latest slander against the WH.

    ReplyDelete
  96. yankeependragon said...

    From bart at 11:33AM: "Show me the proof. So far, the prosecutor has not been able to generate a case for this oft claimed crime."

    I believe Fitzgerald's briefs stated the reason he couldn't conclusively bring charges under this crime was because the waters had been so muddied by conflicting statements from Libby and the rest that the prejury charges brought to date are the result. This doesn't bring the case to an end (as his convening a new Grand Jury shows) and we may yet see charges that address the actual crime.


    In other words, the prosecutor and you have no proof.

    bart continues: "What his investigation did show was that several people and the press were discussing Plame as the person who recommended sending her hubby to Niger long before Wilson started his media campaign against the war. So much for the revenge motive."

    Overlooking that that was just *one* element of the broader story, this doesn't dismiss a 'revenge' motive as it perhaps suggests the Beltway media a gullable pack who'll eat up talking points these days with little investigation on their part.


    Huh? Exactly how did Libby "leak" the identity of Plame days before the Wilson op ed hit piece out of revenge for something which had not yet occurred???

    bart continues: "The investigation and other press accounts also showed that Plame was hardly undercover. While her position was classified, what she did was apparently well known. This is probably the main reason why the prosecutor has not pressed charges against anyone for blowing her non-existant cover."

    One should distinguish between what is 'well known' inside US 395 (aka the Beltway) and the rest of the world. Mrs. Wilson's position and work were not merely classified, but her NOC cover was still very much in force (whatever the Beltway cocktail circuit may or may not have 'known').


    If the public, no matter where they were located, knew what Ms. Plame did for a living, then no amount of paper classification is going to change the fact that she had no actual cover to blow.

    From bart at 11:37AM: "If this Estimate discredited Joe Wilson, then perhaps the problem is with Mr. Wilson's credibility."

    First, its Ambassador Wilson.(you have a problem with titles, don't you?)


    Mr. Wilson was not an ambassador at the time or now and has done nothing since to earn a post hoc honorary title.

    Then again, if Ambassador Wilson's work was so shoddy and his creditability so easy to question, why 'out' his wife and force her work to close down? Any answer for that one?

    1) To start, I see no evidence that anyone outed Plame for the lies which her husband wrote. Indeed, the Fitzgerald investigation proved this to be an impossibility.

    2) His wife became an issue because Joe Wilson lied to the press about who sent him on this mission.

    3) Wilson's writing for the press was not merely "shoddy," it was an outright misrepresentation his own findings given to the CIA orally. Wilson lied when he claimed that the famous "16 words" from Mr. Bush's SOU speech concerning a British report that Saddam was seeking uranium from Niger was false. In fact, Wilson failed to disclose that the time that he had orally reported to the CIA that the ex-prime minister of Niger believed that an Iraqi trade delegation just three years before was seeking uranium.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous9:29 PM

    From Bart at 8:51PM:

    "If the public, no matter where they were located, knew what Ms. Plame did for a living, then no amount of paper classification is going to change the fact that she had no actual cover to blow."

    As you must be omniscient to make such a claim, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us exactly *when* the fact Mrs. Wilson's status and work with the CIA became known to the Iranians, Pakistanis and other overseas parties she was working on tracking?

    The claim that Mrs. Wilson's NOC was already known to the public *before* the Novak article suggests either (a) a profound and heretofore unremarked upon breakdown in the CIA's security over its agents and sources covers, or (b) a fundamental misunderstanding of what a NOC is.

    Back to the issue at hand: one does grant that to date Fitzgerald has been unable to bring charges against anyone under the original matter of concern (ie the public revelation of Mrs. Wilson as a CIA case officer), thanks in large part to the prejury Libby and the rest have muddied the issue with. The investigation however is still ongoing and continues to clarify this sad episode.

    Bart, being a defense attorney, will understandably have little sympathy for a career prosecutor. Better in his mind the case be dismissed and leave it at that.

    Bart states at 8:36PM:

    "It appears that the President declassified this information, the declassification was public and reported on at the time,"

    One is left appalled by this on two counts:

    First is the current Administration's evidentally cavalier attitude towards handling classified materials (provided Mr. Libby's assertion the President himself 'declassified' the materials in question; given the White House has had over 48 hours to respond to this and has remained largely silent, one can only take this as a tacit admission) which bespeaks of lack of concern for the nation's security over that of the Administration itself, the potential risks and damage to fragile diplomatic and intelligence relationships our security often depends upon being irrelevant to these calculations.

    Second is Bart's apparent lack of appreciation of the enormous dangers this revelation invites to the country. His concern over "this latest slander" would be amusing and ironic (can we say "Swift Boat Veterans" children?) were we not talking about fracturing if not destroying key elements of both the nation's security and the public's trust.

    Sad really, but then so is this entire episode.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous10:39 PM

    "...the White House has had over 48 hours to respond to this and has remained largely silent, one can only take this as a tacit admission)..."
    Ugh, pendragon, are you sure you want to blithely throw this type of comment around? Perhaps if this WH was known to be more communicative....

    ReplyDelete
  99. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 8:51PM:

    "If the public, no matter where they were located, knew what Ms. Plame did for a living, then no amount of paper classification is going to change the fact that she had no actual cover to blow."

    As you must be omniscient to make such a claim, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us exactly *when* the fact Mrs. Wilson's status and work with the CIA became known to the Iranians, Pakistanis and other overseas parties she was working on tracking?


    Given that her duties were known to the public, neither you or I know.

    The claim that Mrs. Wilson's NOC was already known to the public *before* the Novak article suggests either (a) a profound and heretofore unremarked upon breakdown in the CIA's security over its agents and sources covers, or (b) a fundamental misunderstanding of what a NOC is.

    Try (a).

    NPR had a good segment on how positions like Plame's are barely undercover because all the CIA does is provide a dummy cover company for the employee to work. Plame herself was well known and Novak found her in about 5 minutes through the Who's Who.

    Back to the issue at hand: one does grant that to date Fitzgerald has been unable to bring charges against anyone under the original matter of concern (ie the public revelation of Mrs. Wilson as a CIA case officer), thanks in large part to the prejury Libby and the rest have muddied the issue with. The investigation however is still ongoing and continues to clarify this sad episode.

    Please.

    The "perjury" of which Mr. Libby is accused is giving different dates than a couple other reporters for conversations. That is it.

    There is nothing in that indictment which goes to the central weakness in Fitzgerald's case - Plame was not in fact undercover. That is why Fitzgerald spent so much time spinning about how the common knowledge about Plame was irrelevant and only the CIA security designation mattered. However, he knows that spin won't fly with a jury or he would have brought charges.

    Bart, being a defense attorney, will understandably have little sympathy for a career prosecutor. Better in his mind the case be dismissed and leave it at that.

    I served as a prosecutor in Florida for 4 years. I know the problems he is facing.

    "It appears that the President declassified this information, the declassification was public and reported on at the time,"

    One is left appalled by this on two counts:

    First is the current Administration's evidentally cavalier attitude towards handling classified materials (provided Mr. Libby's assertion the President himself 'declassified' the materials in question; given the White House has had over 48 hours to respond to this and has remained largely silent, one can only take this as a tacit admission) which bespeaks of lack of concern for the nation's security over that of the Administration itself, the potential risks and damage to fragile diplomatic and intelligence relationships our security often depends upon being irrelevant to these calculations.


    Oh please!

    The issue disclosed was the fact that Saddam had been attempting to buy uranium from overseas for years. Nothing in those 8 pages disclosed gave a hint about how that information was gained in a way that would compromised intelligence gathering.

    If you gave a rats arse about the NYT's disclosure of the means and methods of the NSA Program, I might take your "outrage" half seriously.

    Second is Bart's apparent lack of appreciation of the enormous dangers this revelation invites to the country. His concern over "this latest slander" would be amusing and ironic (can we say "Swift Boat Veterans" children?) were we not talking about fracturing if not destroying key elements of both the nation's security and the public's trust.

    Really? Care to name these alleged "dangers?"

    No one, yourself included, objected in the least when this information was actually and very publicly disclosed. That is because there was and is nothing to object to.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous10:59 PM

    In fact, Wilson failed to disclose that the time that he had orally reported to the CIA that the ex-prime minister of Niger believed that an Iraqi trade delegation just three years before was seeking uranium.

    Bart's at it again -- neglecting to mention that even though Wilson's sources in Niger thought the Iraqis had been seeking uranium (as Wilson reported to the CIA), not one of them thought they had been successful. And that's what they told Wilson and that's what he reported back to the CIA.

    And Wilson's report agreed with that of Marine General Carleton Fulford (in Niger for the Pentagon at roughly the same time and for the same reason as Wilson) and with the report of the US Ambassador to Niger at the time (Owens-Kirkpatrick) who reported the same finding back to the State Department.

    In making the case for war, the administration chose to misrepresent the findings of all three reports by focusing on the fact that Iraq was seeking uranium and omitting the fact that there was less than no evidence that they had been successful in doing so.

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  101. Mr. Wilson was not an ambassador at the time or now and has done nothing since to earn a post hoc honorary title.

    For those people that know manners, it's a "courtesy title". Judge for yourself.

    Betcha HWSNBM still uses names like "Hitlery" and "KKKlinton" though. HE seems to be cut from that cloth.

    Cheers,

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  102. When all else fails, trot out "Plan A" again. Why does this strategy sound so familiar?

    NPR had a good segment on how positions like Plame's are barely undercover because all the CIA does is provide a dummy cover company for the employee to work. Plame herself was well known and Novak found her in about 5 minutes through the Who's Who.

    The ol' "Gee, Novak found out that Wilson was married to Plame" dead horse, when the actual secret (which is not in "Who's Who") was that PLame was a CIA NOC. You'd think these people would be profoundly ashamed to dump that dead carcass on the table and call it an "argument", but noooooo.... It was a stoopid tactic when Novak first tried it, sufficiently stoopid that they had to be laughing through their teeth that any RW boobs bought it, but to keep trying it over and over? HWSNBN seems to think that "Unclaimed Territory" readers are complete morons, but the only person that's being shown to be clueless is him....

    This is Exhibit #1 of why HWSNBN is just a troll.

    The repeated lie that "everyone knew Plame was CIA" is another such troll turd (but not as obvious on tis face). But the CIA thought it a problem, as did Larry Johnson, as did even the Preznit himself (or so he claimed whe he said anyone involved would be fired) ... back in the days when he thought he could pin it on someone else and escape Plame blame.....

    Cheers,

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  103. Anonymous11:24 PM

    From Bart at 10:41PM:

    "There is nothing in that indictment which goes to the central weakness in Fitzgerald's case - Plame was not in fact undercover. That is why Fitzgerald spent so much time spinning about how the common knowledge about Plame was irrelevant and only the CIA security designation mattered."

    Once again, Bart shows a strange detatchment from the law he has sworn as an Officer of the Court to uphold.

    My understanding is that the CIA security designation *is* what matters here. Whether Mrs. Wilson's NOC fits certain preconceived notions of how an undercover identity should operate or not doesn't change the fact the CIA has difinitively stated she was still considered 'undercover'.

    Bart continues:

    "Plame herself was well known and Novak found her in about 5 minutes through the Who's Who."

    Bravo for him. Exactly who authorized him to reveal the information he did? Again, she was still technically and legally undercover.

    Bart continues:

    "I served as a prosecutor in Florida for 4 years. I know the problems he is facing."

    In that case I apologize for the tone of my earlier remark. I knew only you are currently a defense attorney.

    Bart continues:

    "Really? Care to name these alleged "dangers?""

    A couple hypotheticals (given I'm not in the Intelligence Community itself, I can only make educated guesses:

    Why should overseas sources now pass on secrets and data to us if the Administration shows itself uninterested in protecting them should they be discovered or if the Administration itself let's slip their contributions?

    Why should our allies share their own intelligence with us under those same conditions?

    You see where I'm going with this?

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  104. Anonymous11:39 PM

    Arne Langsetmo:
    "This is Exhibit #1 of why HWSNBN is just a troll."

    Zuch, I know you have a lot of practice at it, but I do enjoy watching you dispatch our resident trolls with such ease :-)

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  105. "I served as a prosecutor in Florida for 4 years. I know the problems he is facing."

    In that case I apologize for the tone of my earlier remark. I knew only you are currently a defense attorney.

    His keyboard has had too many liquids spilled on it. There was an extraneous "a" snd "a" that shouldn't have been there. As should be obvious seeing as HWSNBN ain't showing here that he knows s*** from shinola about CP, ConLaw, even basic legal practise, and most amazingly enough, the English language.

    Or he could just be 'nuther dishonest RW troll.

    Cheers,

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  106. Zuch, I know you have a lot of practice at it, but I do enjoy watching you dispatch our resident trolls with such ease :-)

    Yeah, but did you see my pictures? MOre proud of them. Click the blue clicky, and you can see my flea-bitten blog, which unfortunately has more pictures than articles....

    Cheers,

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  107. Anonymous12:09 AM

    Let's keep the same rules, but step away from the situation where Bush et al spoke about WMD. Let us instead consider me going out with the boys.

    --Notherbob2


    Dear god, let's, because at least in that sphere your logic-chopping, hair-splitting, sophistical "meaning of 'is' is" argumentation would have no significant consequences for the world at large.

    Do you honestly think this way in real life? While it makes me deliriously glad not to be a party to the relationship as you describe it, I'd just as soon be spared such wincingly embarrassing inadvertant self-revelations in the future. Let's try working out those marital issues on our own time henceforth, m'kay?

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  108. Anonymous12:16 AM

    Arne: "Yeah, but did you see my pictures?"

    I did see some nice fishblogging photos. Are there more?

    "HWSNBN ain't showing here that he knows s*** from shinola about CP, ConLaw, even basic legal practise, and most amazingly enough, the English language. Or he could just be 'nuther dishonest RW troll."

    All of the above? Anyway, now he apparently makes his living defending drunk drivers (my eyes! my eyes!). Evidently they deserve the benefit of the doubt, but not U.S. citizens caught in the dragnet of the GWOT.

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  109. Anonymous2:24 AM

    drbb, are you so callow that you are sincere?

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  110. AJ said...

    Bart: In fact, Wilson failed to disclose that the time that he had orally reported to the CIA that the ex-prime minister of Niger believed that an Iraqi trade delegation just three years before was seeking uranium.

    Bart's at it again -- neglecting to mention that even though Wilson's sources in Niger thought the Iraqis had been seeking uranium (as Wilson reported to the CIA), not one of them thought they had been successful. And that's what they told Wilson and that's what he reported back to the CIA.


    No one said that Saddam had been successful in that particular attempt and that fact is irrelevant on two levels.

    1) Bush stated in the SOTU that the British reported that Saddam was attempting to gain uranium from Niger, not that they succeeded. In his oped piece and subsequent media interviews, Wilson falsely claimed that his trip disproved the Bush statement when it really helped confirm it.

    2) Attempting to get Uranium was yet another violation of the ceasefire providing legal authority to go to war.

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  111. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  112. Arne Langsetmo said...

    Bart: Mr. Wilson was not an ambassador at the time or now and has done nothing since to earn a post hoc honorary title.

    For those people that know manners, it's a "courtesy title". Judge for yourself.


    That is too cute by half coming from someone who addresses the current President Bush merely as "Preznit" or worse.

    Calling Wilson "ambassador" doesn't give him any more authority of make him any less a proven liar.

    Betcha HWSNBM still uses names like "Hitlery" and "KKKlinton" though. HE seems to be cut from that cloth.

    Unlike most of the posters here, I generally don't engage in this sort of juvenile name calling unless I have lost my temper, which is rarely.

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  113. Anonymous1:47 PM

    From Bart at 11:06AM:

    "Calling Wilson "ambassador" doesn't give him any more authority of make him any less a proven liar."

    An exaggerator perhaps, but I don't believe Ambassador Wilson has actually told any out and out lies, either about his investigation in Niger or his wife's role in his assignment.

    A fine legal point, perhaps, but that seems to be all that is actually recognized these days.

    That said, precisely how does his (perhaps) exaggerated claims of his investigation and its conclusions in any way mitigate the fact someone (or several someones) within the Bush Administration compromised and destroyed the cover his wife had been operating under by revealing it to several reporters?

    Forget all your preconceived notions of how intelligence operatives work and the like. The legal reality is that Valerie Wilson was still using an operational NOC, and so was still legally undercover. Novak had been advised of this, yet went ahead and published that she was working at the CIA anyway, thereby compromising her overseas work and destroying her NOC.

    These are facts, Bart, clearly detailing a crime (possibly one constituting 'treason' if you take the argument "we are at war" seriously) was committed.

    Any comments?

    As an aside to Arne Langsetmo, I don't know Bart personally (nor do I wish to), but am willing to take him at his word concerning his profession and position. If he proves dishonest there,

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  114. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 11:06AM:

    "Calling Wilson "ambassador" doesn't give him any more authority of make him any less a proven liar."

    An exaggerator perhaps, but I don't believe Ambassador Wilson has actually told any out and out lies, either about his investigation in Niger or his wife's role in his assignment.


    Lying is knowingly telling a false fact. He is a liar on both counts.

    That said, precisely how does his (perhaps) exaggerated claims of his investigation and its conclusions in any way mitigate the fact someone (or several someones) within the Bush Administration compromised and destroyed the cover his wife had been operating under by revealing it to several reporters?

    The fact of Wilson's lying has nothing to do with the still unproven allegation that anyone from the Bush WH blew Plame's cover.

    Forget all your preconceived notions of how intelligence operatives work and the like. The legal reality is that Valerie Wilson was still using an operational NOC, and so was still legally undercover. Novak had been advised of this, yet went ahead and published that she was working at the CIA anyway, thereby compromising her overseas work and destroying her NOC.

    I have no trouble with your allegation of Novak as the bad guy in all this. I have just as little sympathy for him in this matter as I do the NYT blowing the cover of the much more classified and important NSA Program.

    Another problem with the revenge angle concerning Novak and the other reporters is that these reporters brought up the subject of Plame, the WH was not calling them to leak this fact.

    These are facts, Bart, clearly detailing a crime (possibly one constituting 'treason' if you take the argument "we are at war" seriously) was committed.

    The prosecutor can't even come up with a lesser charge of disclosing confidential information nevertheless prove the intent to commit treason.

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  115. Anonymous7:06 PM

    From Bart at 2:14PM:

    "Lying is knowingly telling a false fact. He is a liar on both counts."

    By that standard we can't trust anyone in this Administration, nor Congress, nor any cabinet department on...anything.

    Unless of course you're referring strictly to 'false facts' that contradict the Administration's own claims or talking points. Which is it?

    "The fact of Wilson's lying has nothing to do with the still unproven allegation that anyone from the Bush WH blew Plame's cover."

    Well, never let it be said you won't be honest about returning to the original topic when questioned.

    The "unproven allegation" point in your reply however is a bit confusing. I understood Mr. Libby stated, under oath, that he was directed by the Vice President, supposedly with the President's fully approval, to speak to reporters concerning Mrs. Wilson work at the CIA (referring to her by her maiden name and acknowledging her work at there was still technically and legally classified) with respect to her husband's Niger investigation and its subsequent conclusions. I may not be a trained attorney, but testimony under oath *does* constitute "proof" unless otherwise contradicted by other testimony does it not?

    Or, again, is that just testimony that doesn't contradict the Administration's position or talking points?

    "The prosecutor can't even come up with a lesser charge of disclosing confidential information nevertheless prove the intent to commit treason."

    Unless I'm much mistaken, Fitzgerald's investigation is still ongoing. How about we save the dismissive tone until its officially finished? This isn't an episode of "Law and Order" after all, and we're talking about much graver matters than the President embarrassing himself in public.

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  116. Anonymous9:43 PM

    What is being lost amongst this argument about legality/illegality of the leak/declassification is that the only reason why one would want a NIE full of lies is not to full oneself (the administration) but to fool the world. It has to be leaked to get the lies out.

    YY

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  117. Anonymous9:43 PM

    fool oneself...

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  118. 2) Attempting to get Uranium was yet another violation of the ceasefire providing legal authority to go to war.

    Iraq had tons of uranium just sitting there. Already. IAEA knew about it.

    As for whether Iraq really was wanting to get more uranium four years earlier, not quote so cleear. The Iraqis never said so (and some have said the trip to Niger was just part of a general "say hello" tour that oncluded other countries). One Nigerian official thought they might have been hinting at some kind of uranium deal. But nonetheless, even if they had been doing so, that's about as dangerous as a three-year-old threatening you that hes' goign to buy a gun and shoot you. Maybe "illegal" but never gonna happen (or at least not until the NRA set up shop in the White House).

    But that wasn't the point: The point was to scare people with visions of mushroom clouds, and for that, carefully phrased grand and certain claims about shoddy and ultimately incorrect -- as well as immaterial -- evidence was sufficient.

    Cheers,

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  119. HWSNBN sez:

    [Arne]: For those people that know manners, it's ["Ambassador Wilson"] a "courtesy title". Judge for yourself.

    That is too cute by half coming from someone who addresses the current President Bush merely as "Preznit" or worse.

    Why, you're right, HWSNBN!!! I do do that! Matter of fact, I've been known to take the DeLay School Of Presidential Respect Lesson #1 and say loudly: "He's not my president!" SFW? I never said I was courteous to or about a$$holes ... and I'm not (in case you haven't twigged to that fact yourself).

    BUT: You're a freakin' moron because I never claimed to be courteous; I just pointed out for the benefit of the people here with a brain that you're clueless, and don't know the difference between a "courtesy title" and an "honourary title". Your excuse for not using the title was that Wilson (despite probably saving more lives than you'll ever ruin by defending drunk drivers) hasn't done anything deserving "honour". But that's not why he's afforded the title by others; it's that it's a courtesy title. So I think we can say you're discourteous, you're iggnerant, or possibly both. I vote for both. And you can write that down as discourteous. But I'd argue if you wanted to insist it was unwarranted.

    Cheers,

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  120. HWSNBN sez:

    [Arne]: Betcha HWSNBM still uses names like "Hitlery" and "KKKlinton" though. HE seems to be cut from that cloth.

    Unlike most of the posters here, I generally don't engage in this sort of juvenile name calling unless I have lost my temper, which is rarely.

    So you do do it. OK, glad that's settled. But you do engage in juveline slights WRT Wilson. But that's OK, because he only pointed out that Dubya was a freakin' lyin' sum'bitch while you're still kissing the scumbag's a$$ three years and 2300 soldiers' lives later and going strong....

    Cheers,

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  121. yankeependragon:

    As an aside to Arne Langsetmo, I don't know Bart personally (nor do I wish to), but am willing to take him at his word concerning his profession and position.

    The person who hires Bart has a fool for a lawyer. Not at all uncommon, unfortunately, but if he argues with the total lack of logic and disregard for the facts that he shows here, and he quotes dicta in his briefs and argues that cases the went the opposite way are relevant in his briefs (which, like their name, should be so, and should be to the point with the strongest argument, not the weakest and stoopidest one), he'll undoubtedly piss off other attorneys, judges, clients, and perhaps the state bar. May account for his brief tenure as a prosecutor (if that's really true). Another truly fatal characterstic if you're a lawyer is to ignore what the opposition is saying. You do that and you do it at your own peril, 'cause the judge is listenting to them, and if you don't address their arguments and respond to them, you're in for a world of pain....

    That should be enough to convince you that Bart's either quite dishonest, or a disastrous pick as a lawyer.

    Cheers,

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  122. Anonymous10:37 AM

    Cute Bart.

    Let me get this straight. You think that because Wilson was able to confirm an attempt to buy uranium that means his trip supported Bush's case for war? Even though he was at pains to point out that the effort to acquire the uranium had failed?

    Talk about bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging the fact that Wilson's trip debunked the idea that Iraq was anywhere close to a mushroom cloud. Thus debunking the primary (and, as it turns out, non-existent) case for war.

    By the way, Iraq already had enough uranium to build a weapon even without any success in Niger and both US and European intelligence knew it. The only issue was whether or not they had the ability to enrich it and both INR and DOE (the latter being the most group with the most expertise on the subject) did not believe they had that capability (the uranium tubes question).

    The contortions you guys go to avoid seeing the obvious -- no wonder Rush needs painkillers.

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  123. About his testimony about his conversation with Karl rove, Mathew Cooper wrote:
    "The notes, and my subsequent e-mails, go on to indicate that Rove told me material was going to be declassified in the coming days that would cast doubt on Wilson's mission and his findings."

    Also, Cooper wrote that he testified that, although it's not reflected in his notes or subsequent emails, he had a distinct memory of Rove ending the call by saying, "I've already said too much."

    Karl Rove also never gave Valerie Plame's name, but only called her "Joe Wilson's Wife". Thus trying to avoid technically "identifying" a CIA agent, which would be illegal.

    All of these things certainly indicate that Rove knew what he was saying was illegal at the time he said it. Only later did Liddy, supported by the White House, assert that anything the president, and by delegation the vice-president, said should be leaked to the press is automatically de-classified.

    In addition to the conclusion that Cooper's testimony clearly suggests they knew at the time what they were saying was illegal, their defense once the investigation got serious -- that the President ok'd the leak, and thus automatically declassified their statments, makes president Bush a liar -- since at the time Bush claimed no knowledge of the leak, and would fire any leakers. So, there you have it, you can believe Rove's statements to Moore, when he (and likely Liddy too) said and inferred that the information was still classified (and therefore they should go to jail), or you can believe them now, in which case the president lied and authorized the leak of a CIA agent's identity, which means he should be impeached.

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