It's the end of June, so I hope to wind up this month as a guest blogger at Unclaimed Territory -- thank you, Glenn, for the opportunity -- with a big-picture hypothesis of Why We're Screwed.
For a moment step back from political issues and parties, including our much-beloved debate on whether Democrats are salvagable or hopeless, and consider the political culture of the United States. By "political culture" I mean citizens' shared cultural values and beliefs about the role of government and how political processes -- such as election campaigns or how we discuss political issues -- are supposed to be conducted. Political culture also helps us reach consensus about, for example, the legitimacy of political institutions and appropriate distribution and use of power.
Political culture differs from political ideology in that people within a political culture can disagree about what they think government should do, and why it should do it, yet agree on the basics of how government should function and how the political life of the nation should be carried out. I found diverse definitons of political culture on the web, including "the attitudinal and behavioural matrix within which the political system is located." That works for me.
Certain conditions of political culture are essential to support democratic government. As explained nicely in this Wikipedia article (emphasis added):
For countries without a strong tradition of democratic majority rule, the introduction of free elections alone has rarely been sufficient to achieve a transition from dictatorship to democracy; a wider shift in the political culture and gradual formation of the institutions of democratic government are needed. There are various examples, like in Latin America, of countries that were able to sustain democracy only temporarily or in limited form until wider cultural changes occurred to allow true majority rule.
One of the key aspects of democratic culture is the concept of a “loyal opposition”. This is an especially difficult cultural shift to achieve in nations where transitions of power have historically taken place through violence. The term means, in essence, that all sides in a democracy share a common commitment to its basic values. Political competitors may disagree, but they must tolerate one another and acknowledge the legitimate and important roles that each play. The ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate. In such a society, the losers accept the judgment of the voters when the election is over, and allow for the peaceful transfer of power. The losers are safe in the knowledge that they will neither lose their lives nor their liberty, and will continue to participate in public life. They are loyal not to the specific policies of the government, but to the fundamental legitimacy of the state and to the democratic process itself.
Here's the big-picture hypothesis: American political culture is so sick and contaminated that it no longer supports the processes of democratic politics and government.
This is not to say these democracy in America has already failed. Sheer inertia has kept the rituals of democracy and the processes of government lumbering along. It takes either a long time or a lot of force to stop a really big mass that’s been in motion for a while.
But a political culture utterly inhospitable to rational political discussion, as ours has become, cannot support democratic decision making. And a political culture in which large factions of people do not agree on matters of political legitimacy or appropriate distribution and use of power is cruisin' for a bruisin'.
How America's political culture became contaminated is too big a topic to explain fully in a blog post. But very basically, I blame two factors that have been interacting for the past fifty years or so. One is the rise and dominance of mass media. The other is a radical right-wing political coalition that has used mass media and other institutions to dominate the nation's political discourse and, eventually, take control of two out of three branches of our federal government. And they're working hard to take over the third.
And, increasingly, political legitimacy is whatever the Right decides is legitimate. The Right does not recognize opposing points of view as, say honest disagreements about policy. The Right considers opposition to its point of view to be illegitimate and even treasonous. The current outcry from the Right about yesterday's Hamdan decision provides a perfect example of this.
Paul Krugman recognized what was happening and wrote about it in the introduction to his book The Great Unraveling. He explained that, throughout history, reasonable people accustomed to political and social stability have failed to recognize the danger of emerging radical movements — until the stability is lost. Ironically, Krugman says he came to understand this from reading Henry Kissinger’s Ph.D. thesis. As Krugman explained in a Buzzflash interview,
… reasonable people can’t bring themselves to see that they’re actually facing a threat from a radical movement. Kissinger talked about the time of the French Revolution, and pretty obviously he also was thinking about the 1930s. He argued that, when you have a revolutionary power, somebody who really wants to tear apart the system — doesn’t believe in any of the rules — reasonable people who’ve been accustomed to stability just say, “Oh, you know, they may say that, but they don’t really mean it.” And, “This is just tactical, and let’s not get too excited.” Anyone who claims that these guys really are as radical as their own statements suggest is, you know, “shrill.” Kissinger suggests they’d be considered alarmists. And those who say, “Don’t worry. It’s not a big deal,”are considered sane and reasonable.
Well, that’s exactly what’s been happening. For four years now, some of us have been saying, whether or not you think they’re bad guys, they’re certainly radical. They don’t play by the rules. You can’t take anything that you’ve regarded as normal from previous U.S. political experience as applying to Bush and the people around him. They will say things and do things that would not previously have made any sense — you know, would have been previously considered out of bounds. And for all of that period, the critics have been told: “Oh, you know, you’re overreacting, and there’s something wrong with you.”
The ascension of the radical Right occurred over many years, and their takeover of government — a slow-motion coup d’état — happened gradually enough that most of us didn’t comprehend what was happening. America has been challenged by radicalism before, and always it has come back to the center soon enough. (And by “center” I mean the real center, where liberalism and conservatism balance, not the false “center” of today that would have been considered extreme conservatism in saner times.) I do not believe the coup is a fait accompli; the Right is not yet so secure it its power that it has dropped all pretense of honoring democratic political process. They’re still going through the motions, in other words. But this time I do not believe America will come back to the center unless a whole lot of us grab hold and pull at it. Hard.
How do we do that? First, we have to get our bearings and remember what “normal” is, which is going to be hard for the young folks whose memories don’t back back further than the Reagan Administration. Just take it from an old lady — what we got now ain’t normal.
Second, I argue that media reform is essential to all other necessary political reform. Until people outside the radical Right and the elite media-political establishment are able to take part in the nation's political discourse, not much can be accomplished.
For example, many progressives have concluded it is pointless to support Democrats, because as soon as a Democrat gets inside the Beltway his spinal column is ripped right out of him. Time and time again, we’ve seen Democratic politicians make grand speeches to their liberal constituents, but once we get them elected they do little more than offer ineffectual objections to the ruling right-wing power juggernaut. At best. At worst, they vote with the Right out of some screwy notions about political expediency. And we’re all sick of this.
But I say that progressivism’s salvation will not come from any political leader or party, Democrat or otherwise. Progressivism will only be saved when we can effect change in our political culture so that progressive ideas can get a fair public hearing. And this brings us to the necessity of media reform.
No matter what progressive legislators might want to accomplish, they are helpless to do much until progessive policies have solid popular support. You build popular support for policies by talking about them to the American people. And for the past fifty years or so, that means being able to make your case in mass media, particularly television.
Now, tell me — when was the last time you watched a substantive, factual, civil discussion of progressive ideas on national television?
Take health care, for example. For years, we progressives have wanted some kind of national health care system, maybe single payer, maybe a combination of public and private systems, but something that would scuttle the bloated, failing mess we’ve got now. Many polls indicate that a majority of Americans are deeply concerned about health care in this country. Yet it is next to impossible to present progressive ideas about health care reform to the American public through mass media. Even on those programs allegedly dedicated to political discussion, as soon as a progressive gets the phrase “health care” out of his mouth, a chorus of rightie goons will commence shrieking about socialized medicine! And then the allotted ten minutes for the health care segment is up; go to commercial.
And that’s assuming a real progressive is invited on the program at all.
So even though a majority of the American people sense that something is wrong with our health care system, and think something needs to change, they never hear what the options are through mass media. Probably a large portion of American voters don’t realize that the U.S. is the only industrialized democratic nation with no national health care program. They never hear that, on a purely cost-benefit basis, we have about the worst health care system among nations affluent enough so that most citizens own a microwave. All Americans ever hear is that Canada has national health care and that Canadians have to put their names on waiting lists to get services, and ain’t that awful? OK, but what about the thirty-something other nations with national health care systems that don’t have waiting lists?
Bottom line: The Right figured out how to use mass media to make its point-of-view dominant and shut out the Left. Thus, radical right-wing views are presented as “conservative” and even “centrist,” even though a whopping majority of the American public doesn’t agree with those views. Through media, the radical Right is able to deflect attention away from itself and persuade just enough voters that Democrats are loony and dangerous. And maybe even treasonous.
And if just enough voters aren’t persuaded — well, there are ways to deal with that, too. But media consumers aren’t hearing much about that, either.
Because media is the dominant political force of our time, media reform is an essential part of the cure. It’s not the only part — reform is required along many fronts — but without media reform, we’re bleeped. But please note that by "media reform" I don't mean just making current media structures nicer. I think we've got to break up the dominance of the current mass media establishment, and blogs and new technologies will be part of the solution.
Mass media has contributed to the erosion of democracy in other ways. The cost of mass media election campaigns has created a self-corrupting system. Even the most idealistic politician must go begging to special interest groups to raise the money necessary to win elections. This has given us representatives who are more responsive to campaign donors than to constituents. Breaking up the two-party system is not going to solve this problem, because third-party candidates would get caught in the same trap.
If we’re going to restore the United States to functionality as a democratic republic, our primary goal is to heal the national political culture. Otherwise, it won’t matter which party we support or how many elections we win, because the patient — democracy in America — will still be dying. But if we can heal the culture, the job of reforming other political institutions — like the Democratic and Republican parties, if you like — will be easier. In the next few days I plan to post on The Mahablog in more detail about what we can do to heal America's political culture, and you are welcome to drop by. Suggestions are welcome.
On the other hand, this doesn't mean we can ignore elections until we fix culture. In the short term, anything we can do to take power away from the Right will help make other reform more possible. That's why, I think, supporting Democratic candidates in the November elections is an essential tactical step, even though by itself Democratic majorities in Congress won't fix our political problems.
All human institutions are imperfect, and institutions that survive through many generations, like the United States government, will go through cycles of corruption and reform. Often idealistic people will point to the corruptions and the many ways our nation has fallen short of its ideals and argue that the patient isn’t worth saving. I, however, take the Buddhist view that all compounded things are imperfect, but that’s how life is, and it’s our duty — to ourselves, our ancestors, and our descendants — to make the best of it. Not making the best of it is not, in my view, a desirable alternative.
Interesting post, and I agree with most of your points, but I am curious what you mean by "media reform". Since media is controlled by businesses, are you suggesting government should regulate content somehow, or do you think those companies should self regulate, or something else I completely missed? Just curious.
ReplyDeleteExcellent post, Barbara, and I hope you’ll get some new visitors to your blog as a result of your fine posts here. Also, I apologize for your rude treatment here, but we do have quite a few assholes in these threads, since they are un-moderated. That, unfortunately, is inevitable, given the political “culture” you speak so eloquently about.
ReplyDeleteSadly, that concept is entirely beyond the comprehension of many Bush supporters. On another group that I’m a member of a quote from the “nice doggie” web-site advocating mass murder of innocent civilians was being discussed.
The vocal defender of Bush said that was perfectly acceptable and until we could prove that the people at “nice doggie” had actually committed murder, those criticizing them should just shut the hell up. It was no big deal, and absolutely nothing to get concerned about.
As I read your post, on the TV was Melanie Morgan spewing her hatred once again, and a day after advocating the gas chamber for liberal she disagreed with, there she was prominently featured on MSNBC. Such is our “political culture” – which is shameful.
This is a topic well worth discussion, but alas, I don’t think that Bush supporters are even capable of recognizing it. Yet, these are the same people who are so sensitive to the language we use that they consider the term “neo-con” to be anti-Semitic.
They are sensitive to the concept of “political culture” only when it is in their benefit, and they use it to stifle political discourse. I don’t think that you use it in the same way at all. Rather, your use of the term is to inspire political discourse, or perhaps, enable political discourse; which, at the present time, is virtually dead.
...are you suggesting government should regulate content somehow, or do you think those companies should self regulate, or something else I completely missed?
ReplyDeleteThis caught my eye too. The problem I see with this idea is that the Right would like nothing better than to get their hands on some 'regulating' of media (their anti-regulation shibboleths aside); it would all the better if it could be BIPARTISAN!! So I don't think we can go there.
Like many, I'd love to see the return of the Fairness Doctrine. I realize this is not likely to happen.
I think the best we can hope for is for the New New Media, i.e. these here Internets, to make the old mass media more and more irrelevant. I just can't see the TV and print people changing their business model. As for radio...ewwww let's not go there either!
Excellent post with some real food for thought, look forward to seeing more at maha!
Barbara,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your work here. Though we've disagreed everytime we've conversed (and I think are about to again, now), it's been good to at least have the conversations.
Okay, so the niceties said, I gotta point out that I find your choice of approved quotation ironic:
"Political competitors may disagree, but they must tolerate one another and acknowledge the legitimate and important roles that each play. The ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate."
Again, to me, that's ironic, given your fervent defense of (and celebration of) DailyKos... a site where political competitors (i.e., anyone not a registered Democrat) are untolerated, and considered illegitimate... by the very design and ground rules of the site itself. No visitor to Kos is permitted to, in the words of your cite, "acknowledge the legitimate and important roles" to be played by any competitor to a registered Democrat (no matter where on the ideological spectrum that Democrat happens to fall). Again, this isn't by accident... it's a function of DKos's own expressed design.
It's too bad that the "tolerance and civility" you so yearn for can't be found in your own favorite blog... a blog whose convention you attended a mere few weeks ago.
Regards,
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
This post is extremely good. Thank you. I have thought most of what you've presented for a long long time. The right has been able to make a large number of people doubt their own reasoning process......we are in a dysfunctional time in our society. I believe that we have to start creating news outlets radio and tv, all over the country, small, yet loud. And they have to bring us back to what it means to discuss issues honestly regardless of who screams when. I think TV in the hands of a few is truly orwellian.
ReplyDeleteAgain, this isn't by accident... it's a function of DKos's own expressed design.
ReplyDeleteYes, Patrick, that’s right. It is a site designed for those promoting the Democratic Party, and within that context there is very vigorous debate and interesting discussions.
You are most certainly free to set up your own site designed for those promoting the Green Party, and to facilitate that discussion you might want to set up a design that doesn’t let those tearing apart the Green Party dominate the site.
I wouldn’t find anything wrong with that. Indeed, for activists in the Green Party, it would be perfectly reasonable.
The reason you think media reform is necessary is that the existing media and the denizens thereof have failed to perform their role. The lack of attention to detail and the discussion of issues has been blocked by media pundits who are reactionaries.
ReplyDeleteAs you point out,health care is a vital issue and one experienced most often by people,either for themselves or their family.Yet the comparative data of other countries isn't a secret.You know about it and so do thousands of others.Why don't reporters for major newspapers,liberal or conservative?
Why didn't the "media" address the issues in 2000 and 2004? Why did it become a character issue dealing with clothes and identity?
It's not the media that has failed this society.It is the utter failure of the people who pretend to be reporters and it's most evident every time you turn on the TV.
Worst invention...ever.
I think you're missing some historical context here. I can't agree that American political culture has always tolerated dissenting viewpoints. The crisis which led to the Civil War is evidence enough of that. It wasn't just the last decade or so, either -- Southerners never did tolerate any questioning of slavery, whether by Northerners or even by Southern whites who favored more democracy for whites within the Southern states. Southern representatives never hesitated to violate fundamental rights such as free speech, or to threaten violence, if they didn't get their way.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, at the end of Reconstruction, Southern states adopted terrorism and repression as quasi-institutional forms of governance. Again, dissent from the norm simply wasn't tolerated. The violent resistance to Brown and MLK, while never reaching Civil War levels, far surpasses anything we've seen recently.
The best analogy to the last 10 years is the McCarthy era. Individual Republicans took up the bullying and intimidation tactics which had long characterized Southern politics. Those tactics gradually became general within the party. We see the consequences today.
In my view, there has always been an anti-democratic strain in US politics. I think that, over time, it has gotten less virulent, not more, though it depends on which endpoints you pick for comparison. While I agree with you that today's Republican party doesn't accept democratic values -- they intimidate, they steal elections, they violate fundamental rights -- their behavior is actually less drastic than was characteristic of the South pre- or post- Civil War.
What's missing today is an opposition with backbone. After the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the North finally decided it wouldn't be bullied any more. After Brown, the nation as a whole rejected overt thuggery as a basis for government. It's up to us to take a similar stand.
I don't see "reforming the media" as all that important to the process. In the first place, the traditional media is losing its hold. The internet allows us to join our efforts in ways never before possible. Second, the media are essentially sheep -- they won't lead a turnaround, but they will follow one if we make it happen. They don't need to be reformed, just bypassed.
"You are most certainly free to set up your own site designed for those promoting the Green Party, and to facilitate that discussion you might want to set up a design that doesn’t let those tearing apart the Green Party dominate the site."
ReplyDeleteIf I were to create such a site, or attend a convention based around such a site--a site which, by its own definition, does not tolerate political competitors, and does not acknowledge the legitimacy of political competitors--I would not then turn around and post about the importance of tolerating political competitors and acknowledging their legitimacy. 'Cause, if I were to do so, that'd be pretty nakedly hypocritical of me. Wouldn't it?
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Barbara... So, believe it or not, I think that in ten years or less we could be living in a much reformed nation and enjoying a new birth of freedom, and the extreme Right will be so disgraced that it will take another 50 years for them to regroup and make a comeback.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I believe that is possible.
It's a bit of a contradiction, really. I was a bit skeptical when you started the post out with...
It's the end of June, so I hope to wind up this month as a guest blogger at Unclaimed Territory... with a big-picture hypothesis of Why We're Screwed.
As I read that I found myself resisiting this notion. I thought I might not agree with what you had to say. As I read on, I found that to I did agree with you. Then we get to Kissinger:
Paul Krugman recognized what was happening and wrote about it in the introduction to his book The Great Unraveling. He explained that, throughout history, reasonable people accustomed to political and social stability have failed to recognize the danger of emerging radical movements — until the stability is lost. Ironically, Krugman says he came to understand this from reading Henry Kissinger’s Ph.D. thesis. As Krugman explained in a Buzzflash interview,
"Kissinger suggests they’d be considered alarmists. And those who say, “Don’t worry. It’s not a big deal,”are considered sane and reasonable... And for all of that period, the critics have been told: “Oh, you know, you’re overreacting, and there’s something wrong with you.”
Am I refusing to think the unthinkable? Am I being to reasonable? Too optimistic? Are you? Are we screwed or is there hope. I look forward to your other posts at Mahablog.
I've been advocating that this IS a political solution on one level -- But thanks for pointing out how its also a *Media* culture of corruption and Messaging as well.
ReplyDeleteThe abdication of the Fairness Doctrine had part to do with this. (IMHO) The sort of *equal time* of presenting points of view in an equitable time manner which was abandoned that has allowed the unbalanced skewing of the proportion of the coverage on political candidates and these political ideas to warp into almost total one-sided programming events.
A reversion to that doctrine might *help*.
This political test and plot on two axes is an improvement on the Nolan Test, which is weighted to score just about everyone as a "libertarian".
ReplyDeleteThe old one-dimensional categories of 'right' and 'left', established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789, are overly simplistic for today's complex political landscape. For example, who are the 'conservatives' in today's Russia? Are they the unreconstructed Stalinists, or the reformers who have adopted the right-wing views of conservatives like Margaret Thatcher ?
On the standard left-right scale, how do you distinguish leftists like Stalin and Gandhi? It's not sufficient to say that Stalin was simply more left than Gandhi. There are fundamental political differences between them that the old categories on their own can't explain. Similarly, we generally describe social reactionaries as 'right-wingers', yet that leaves left-wing reactionaries like Robert Mugabe and Pol Pot off the hook.
But if you really want to see a better political mapping system for the increasing complexity of the modern world, try this.
Chip Berlet has an excellent chart of sectors of the political right in America. I wish someone would make a serious academic attempt at this for the left. Not David Horowitz' comical propaganda joke.
Barbara... Yes, we are seriously screwed, but I think it's possible there will be a general uprising (nonviolent, I trust) against the right-wing extremists, and when that uprising comes a lot of change can happen very quickly.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I tend to think they will go out with a whimper, not a bang, and rather more quickly than it took for them to come to power. But the damage done, and SCOTUS, we will be dealing with for the next 50 years.
Barbara... I do not hesitate to ban people from my site if they are causing thread disruption, starting flames, or if I find responding to them is eating too much of my time and energy.
ReplyDeleteThe Major is a national treasure of parody, even if he doesn't intend to be.
Of course it hasn't, and I don't believe I said it did.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't say so expressly, but I inferred that from statements like
"American political culture is so sick and contaminated that it no longer supports the processes of democratic politics and government.
This is not to say these democracy in America has already failed. Sheer inertia has kept the rituals of democracy and the processes of government lumbering along. It takes either a long time or a lot of force to stop a really big mass that’s been in motion for a while.
But a political culture utterly inhospitable to rational political discussion, as ours has become, cannot support democratic decision making. ...
Although it’s never been perfect, once upon a time American political culture supported democratic processes."
All the present tense verbs made it seem like you were contrasting to a time when American politics did behave in the proper way. I'm not sure it ever did, except within limits we now find unacceptable. But if that's not what you meant, my bad.
I think the Civil War is a good example, however. The nation managed to limp along for a while half slave and half free, agreeing to disagree on slavery but generally accepting the same parameters of republican government. There was a workable political culture, in other words. But after a time, especially from about 1850 on, rational public discussion became impossible, and then there was a war.
I don't believe the Southern slaveholders ever did accept the parameters of republican government. They resisted democratic reforms in their own states. They flagrantly violated free speech norms. They used violence to intimidate or silence opponents of slavery. They threatened disunion until they actually attempted it. Their behavior was even worse than what you describe as prevalent today:
"Although they pay lip service to the ideals of democracy, what drives them is the acquisition of power and the implementation of their extremist agenda by any means necessary. If rules must be broken and democratic processes subverted to achieve their goals — so be it.
And, increasingly, political legitimacy is whatever the Right decides is legitimate. The Right does not recognize opposing points of view as, say honest disagreements about policy. The Right considers opposition to its point of view to be illegitimate and even treasonous."
The key point is, Americans eventually decided they wouldn't tolerate that any more. We need leadership today which will make the same commitment.
The key point is, Americans eventually decided they wouldn't tolerate that any more. We need leadership today which will make the same commitment.
ReplyDeleteI agree.
However, it's easier to tolerate when it's back on the fringe where it belongs in a free society, not in the halls of Congress, The White House or the courts. Locked up in the attic like the crazy aunt, perhaps.
Reforming the media is (a) unlikely, and (b) pointless. The US is headed for a major internal crisis, perhaps even a breakup.
ReplyDelete“the major”,
ReplyDeleteThis is Dr. Springfeld. We already checked the library. Are you at the café where we found you last time? Your friends Carlos and Vlad will bring you back to the home in the van and we’ll be having tomato soup tonite – your favorite! Please leave the good people here alone and come back home safely to all your friends.
Barbara:
ReplyDeleteOne of the key aspects of democratic culture is the concept of a “loyal opposition”. This is an especially difficult cultural shift to achieve in nations where transitions of power have historically taken place through violence. The term means, in essence, that all sides in a democracy share a common commitment to its basic values. Political competitors may disagree, but they must tolerate one another and acknowledge the legitimate and important roles that each play. The ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate. In such a society, the losers accept the judgment of the voters when the election is over, and allow for the peaceful transfer of power. The losers are safe in the knowledge that they will neither lose their lives nor their liberty, and will continue to participate in public life. They are loyal not to the specific policies of the government, but to the fundamental legitimacy of the state and to the democratic process itself.
Here's the big-picture hypothesis: American political culture is so sick and contaminated that it no longer supports the processes of democratic politics and government.
[B]asically, I blame two factors that have been interacting for the past fifty years or so. One is the rise and dominance of mass media. The other is a radical right-wing political coalition that has used mass media and other institutions to dominate the nation's political discourse and, eventually, take control of two out of three branches of our federal government. And they're working hard to take over the third.
Oh my!
My lady, I would encourage you to look in the mirror...or at least at your own post and tell me again about the left's "loyal opposition" and "tolerance and civility in public debate."
But now many of our civic institutions are controlled by right-wing extremists who do not respect our traditional political culture or the values of democracy. Although they pay lip service to the ideals of democracy, what drives them is the acquisition of power and the implementation of their extremist agenda by any means necessary. If rules must be broken and democratic processes subverted to achieve their goals — so be it...
Is this how the leftist "loyal opposition" shows their belief that: "Political competitors may disagree, but they must tolerate one another and acknowledge the legitimate and important roles that each play?"
For four years now, some of us have been saying, whether or not you think they’re bad guys, they’re certainly radical. They don’t play by the rules. You can’t take anything that you’ve regarded as normal from previous U.S. political experience as applying to Bush and the people around him. They will say things and do things that would not previously have made any sense — you know, would have been previously considered out of bounds...
Is this how the leftist "loyal opposition" recognizes "the ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate?"
The ascension of the radical Right occurred over many years, and their takeover of government — a slow-motion coup d’état — happened gradually enough that most of us didn’t comprehend what was happening. America has been challenged by radicalism before, and always it has come back to the center soon enough. (And by “center” I mean the real center, where liberalism and conservatism balance, not the false “center” of today that would have been considered extreme conservatism in saner times.) I do not believe the coup is a fait accompli; the Right is not yet so secure it its power that it has dropped all pretense of honoring democratic political process.
Is this how the leftist "loyal opposition" shows how "the losers accept the judgment of the voters when the election is over, and allow for the peaceful transfer of power?"
Just because the voters have repeatedly rejected leftist Democrats over the past quarter century doesn't mean there is anything wrong with our democracy.
What is wrong, as you have so vividly demonstrated with your post, is that the current political minority has completely abandoned the concept of the "loyal opposition." Instead, the left is willing to sacrifice the basic interests of the Republic in order to score fleeting political partisan political points against the elected majority. What is scary is that you can't even see it.
You will notice that I haven't reciprocated your screed with name calling and claims you on the left are a danger to democracy.
However, I want you to observe the replies to my posts by your leftist compatriots. They will be nothing but pure vitriol, name calling and the usual lies and distortions about what I posted.
After your compatriots have their usual say, talk to me again about the "loyal opposition."
BTW, "free speech norms" were very different then than they are now.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. But I meant "norms" of that time, not ours. The gag rule, postal censorship, etc. were concessions to Southern demands, not common practices in the North.
What you describe is accurate for the couple of decades or so leading up to the Civil War, but matters weren't that bad at the beginning of the 19th century.
True enough, but the attitude was there early on -- there were threats of disunion in the First Congress when antislavery petitions were introduced. The slavery issue was quiescent from about 1800 to 1830 (except for Missouri), so the slaveholders didn't need to be overt in their hostility.
I'm a five-alarm Civil War buff going way back, btw, so you might not want to get me started ...
Ditto here, but I don't want to hijack the discussion, which I think raises important issues, so I'll leave the Civil War for another time.
Does that clarify the point for you?
ReplyDeleteYes, but I disagree on the history though I agree with your characterization of the present behavior of the Republican party.
Yeah, the naturally democratic system that worked so well for human evolutionary advancement and genetic propagation is a bit harder to maintain when clever but malignant leaders are able to protect themselves with cultural and technological tools – that are continuously evolving. The days of simply clubbing a sociopathic tribal chief over the head as they slept are long gone so you have to constantly adapt to these guys, fight em with, what’s it called.. Oh yeah... liberal thinking – in the classical sense, as in critical, fact-based, free-thinking, pattern matching abilities and all that – preferrably lots of these minds working together for the common good.. stuff many mainstream conservatives can’t wrap their minds around unless God is involved, or survival of the fittest (interesting how those two things got mixed up in mainstream conservatism).
ReplyDeleteAt least there’s still a few flames of good old democracy burning in the mass media with concepts of economic patriotism, checks and balances, true conservatives, true Christians, decent Moslems, the crazy things politicians do.. getting some play from time to time. But no one wants the gasoline that really gets activism burning again to be an economic collapse, mushroom cloud, or anything else really nasty that these current clowns don’t seem prepared to care about. To make cultural changes, getting the word out will only reach the small percentage of Americans who can actually think for themselves. So you have to expand the effort:
Get more of these liberal academics we keep hearing so much about to get together and counter some of that self-serving right-wing think-tanking that’s going on.
Get Warren Buffet on board – damn that Bill Gates.
Reality based knowledge resources geared toward the time constrained.
Bring back some kind of Fairness Doctrine and other safeguards in case the internet gets sabotaged by the powerful.
Make liberalism fun again. Not just the highbrow intellectual blogging stuff but sexy pundits, fun street protests, I dunno..
Get Hillary to fix that image problem. Maybe she knows damn well she has to “play the game” as a disguised progressive, just maybe, but boy has Daou gotten a lot of crap since his announcement..
Market lines of products geared toward liberals and True Americans. Liberal toothpaste. FreeSpiritFries. If successful, the media of course, would have to follow.
Effectively expose false prophets to the righteous. Then do the same to the self-righteous.
Make Jesus a liberal again.
Take back control of language.
Bring realities of the powerful and their power game into the CW.
Prove real Americans aren’t scared of terrorists and are gonna be able to come up with far more effective ideas than these cronies in power have. (Yeah, I know they’d have to be secret plans lest the cronies in power steal the ideas.)
Alright, not all entirely serious. But I’ll check out Mahablog to see what’s up…
I think this is a great post, especially the part about being dismissed as "shrill" without assessing the content of an argument against the administration.
ReplyDeleteMy feeling, though, is that "reform" is not the best approach. TV et. al. is inherently a one-way communication system. This is, in fact, nearly the definition of totalitarianism. That is why it lends itself to the GOP message so naturally. The current form of information dissemination (5-second soundbite) has naturally evolved in that medium - it wasn't invented by the neocons.
The more effective approach is to counter-balance one-way communication systems with a multi-way system: the Internet. Blogs are indicative of this, even to the point of red blogs not permitting comments (again, one-way communication).
Yo bart,
ReplyDelete“tell me again about the left's ‘loyal opposition’ and ‘tolerance and civility in public debate’."
Play devil’s advocate with yourself. An experiment. Try to post these at opposing websites:
Left – Murtha’s defeatist talk is demoralizing these troops which must remain in Iraq in order to complete the mission, lest all hell breaks loose.
Right – Murtha’s just trying to get the most bang for our War On Terror buck by refocusing the effort back onto al Qaeda.
Bet you get deleted and/or banned more often at right wing sites. And that’s just bloggers.
Culture is a learned set of mores. Media certainly fits the role of teaching and thus needs our attention. But, we are bucking up against a lot of money on this one; political money that is.
ReplyDeleteI think we really need to keep our eyes on and fingers in our local education systems. They are not as far gone as media. They have only been transformed into machines of worker production and not yet cultural educators of the extreme mores of Bush et al.
Our schools were for us. They were our means of creating the "culture" needed for democracy. It is why they were free of outside capitalistic influence. Give the kid a change to get grounded before you put them in the office of the free-for-all.
Time to change the concept of team work from an athletic fable to a barn raising truth. A town barn raising is a much more accurate experience of what democracy is than an athletic event. Again, think about what we have been emphasizing in our schools.
Also, time to start relating the local town experiences to what has been happening federally. People know when their local taxes are going up and they know when their pay has not. But, they don't see that the ratio of taxes to pay has increased because of their voting in the national elections. They don't connect their national voting with the local results. When you talk about the local experience and note that it is the realization of the true "trickle down", they start to see Bush et al for what they are.
Lastly, if we are a me society, then what ever we do to move us back to the true center has to be presented from the me perspective. Someone listening from a me perspective just can't hear when you talk we or us. We need to learn this fast. Bush et al have been successful because they present everything from a me perspective. We can and need to do the same. Everything progressive/liberal (I prefer liberal as defined at dictionary.com) can be presented from the “me” position. After all, are we not working toward the agenda because of the benefits for our individual life situation?
"I do not hesitate to ban people from my site if they are causing thread disruption, starting flames, or if I find responding to them is eating too much of my time and energy."
ReplyDeleteDo you ban them if they commit the crime of suggesting that someone vote for a candidate other than your own pre-approved candidate? Or if they suggest that someone vote for a party other than your own pre-approved party? I don't even mean if they do it in an ugly, flame-y way... just simple, plain, non-insulting advocacy of an opinion with which you disagree? My guess is that you, personally, don't, Barbara. Yet you-know-who does, and you're a giant backer of you-know-who, and I'm just trying to square that with your current advocacy of tolerance for political opponents, and acknowledgement of their legitimacy.
It's a clear contradiction, Barbara.
"If someone has spent a lot of money and time setting up a web site for a particular purpose, I don't blame them for banning commenters they judge to be detrimental to that purpose."
Even if the commenters' crimes are nothing other than simple, non-insulting, non-hostile expression of an opinion with which the host happens to disagree?
Okay. I guess that's fine. I just can't see how someone who believes that could possibly believe this:
"Political competitors may disagree, but they must tolerate one another and acknowledge the legitimate and important roles that each play. The ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate."
Barbara, are you for acknowledging the legitimacy of political opponents and tolerating their participation in public debate? Or are you for denying the legitimacy of political opponents and, literally, censoring any possible advocacy of them, no matter how polite said advocacy may be, simply because the advocacy comes in service of a party whose very legitimacy you deny?
You have to choose one or the other, Barbara. You can't have both.
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Bart said...
ReplyDelete"You will notice that I haven't reciprocated your screed with name calling and claims you on the left are a danger to democracy."
How exceptionally gracious of you. You relied on repetitive expressions of supercilious contempt instead.
"However, I want you to observe the replies to my posts by your leftist compatriots. They will be nothing but pure vitriol, name calling and the usual lies and distortions about what I posted."
Calm yourself. It's possible Arne is on vacation during this holiday. If you're free of his baiting for a few hours it may even be possible for you to construct logical and legitimate attacks on some of the weaker aspects of her post. I could do so, despite my agreement with a fair amount of what she said.
Great post Barbara, and such important topics too.
ReplyDeleteI basically agree with you about our political culture. It's almost impossible, to have a rational discussion with many on the right, because they consinder me a traitor, a terrorist sympathizer, and enemy to America, just because I opposed an aspect of foreign policy. The right has declared war on me, and "liberals", because I/we dont support their political policies, or share their philosophy.
I remember in the eighties when the media fairness doctrine was rescinded. I was laughed at, for saying we could see a Pravda-like television station in the future. This isnt the Soviet Union dude, was the response I got at the time.
The Corporate Media are owned and operated, by people that support the philosophy of a self regulating free market, which would be great if it actually worked that way, in all cases. How many times has one heard that "Government isnt the solution, its the problem"? While you can point out failures of Government, I can recite a laundry list of Government successes, which has had a profound effect on improving Americans lives.
I can also remember, why regulations were put on Corprations in the first place, because they would not self regulate horrible and shameful behavior. An easy example is when rivers were catching on fire from pollution, before the Government became the solution, and yet they somehow managed to still generate profits.
They believe they will make less profits, if progressive views are heard, and then implemented, since a Corporations sole motivation is to make bigger and better profits, even though history has shown that Corporations still generate profits when regulated to behave ethically. Yet they donate millions, and portray the Republican politicians, who share this same philosophy, in the best possible light, while allowing "liberals", to be demonized and lied about with impunity, because we believe in a "Government of the people", over an entity, the Corporation, to promote the general welfare of America.
OK, but what about the thirty-something other nations with national health care systems that don’t have waiting lists?
ReplyDeleteLike where? England? Do you have even the slightest idea of what health care is like in England?
If you ever need a life-saving operation, I suggest you don't go to England. If you do, buy a one way ticket.
Reading some of your stuff is like regressing to a sandbox.
You're one of those people who says, "with respect", minus the sarcasm, and then proceeds to show no respect for the person. You dressing down patrick has to be the biggest laugh (other than the Major) ever to appear on this blog. What a thighslapper for someone of your level to think you are going to educate someone like Patrick.
The coup de grace is your comment about Leo Strauss.
Here, read something from someone who knows what he is talking about.
TROTSKY, STRAUSS, AND THE NEOCONS
War Party's leftist and elitist roots exposed
Neocons, as ex-Trotskyites, are bad enough, but those who follow the pro-pagan Leo Strauss are deadly. He advocated the Big Lie. Forgive me for all the gory details, but these people – with their other leaders like Bill Buckley and Irving Kristol and the help of the CIA – perverted the American right into loving the welfare-warfare state."
i.e., warmongering pinkos.
And here:
According to Drury, Strauss's philosophy accepts the death of God, (unlike traditional conservatism) and then moves positivistically (unlike traditional conservatism) to fill the vacuum with elite group of self-elected philosopher kings. This elite, alive to the nihilism of the liberal ethos and its potentially anarchic consequences, believes it must act forcefully to paper over the hole left by His demise. Their esoteric/exoteric readings of philosophy tell them they must forge from the ashes a seamless, monocultural machine to encourage obedience and staunch chaos. This nationalistic machine must be equipped with a religion (any religion) and a mythic culture based on flag-reverence and knee-jerk patriotism. This is necessary because pluralistic, liberal societies cannot meet the challenge posed by well-organized, culturally cohesive states. Because the mass of men are primitive, credulous, prone to error and evil, the state with the best machine necessarily will win. Straussians, unlike traditional conservatives who see the state as malevolent, justify their activism by insisting that as philosophers they are immune to temptations of power.
You know. Like Kos and Jerome.
Strauss was a delusional fascist madman with a copy of the original draft (not written by Zionists) of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in his back pocket: his bible.
Control the masses (for their own good, of course) through various outrageous deceptions, amusing diversions to distract, and heavy duty propaganda sort of thing. Never heard of the concept? Look around.
Tonite on 20/20. A Stossel free program on political polarization in American communities with Stephanopolous. Perhaps this explains why people in the national minority, like Bart, find it hard to accept they are not in the mainstream.
ReplyDeleteAmerica is a nation increasingly divided, on issue after issue after issue. You can see it, hear it and feel it, from the streets of the smallest town to the halls of Congress. How did we become so divided? Based on extensive reporting all over the country, George Stephanopoulos issues a warning about the threat posed by the political polarization of America in an ABC News special, "State of the Union," airing on a special edition of "20/20," Friday, June 30 (10:00-11:00 PM).
America's political divide is often described as red states vs. blue states. But the reporting in this hour demonstrates that the phenomenon is more neighborhood by neighborhood or town by town - red streets vs. blue streets. As an example, "State of the Union" compares two cities, Montclair, New Jersey and Franklin, Tennessee. A generation ago in both communities, the vote in the presidential election was split 50-50 Democrat-Republican. In 2004 it was a blowout in opposite directions - 78% for Senator John Kerry in "blue" Montclair, 72% for President Bush in "red" Franklin. The margin of victory has steadily widened in every presidential election since 1976. Stephanopoulos calls this clustering of Americans into like-minded communities "the big sort," and it is happening nationwide.
In "State of the Union" ABC News conducts two experiments that illustrate the impact of "the big sort." In the first, Cass Sunstein, a University of Chicago law professor, conducts a remarkable experiment for ABC News that demonstrates that like-minded people are pushed to more and more extreme positions when they group together. It has profound and troubling implications for the country. In the second experiment, University of Pennsylvania Professor Diana Mutz demonstrates the impact of so-called "shout TV," which is the media manifestation of "the big sort." She shows that viewers are very likely to misunderstand those who disagree with them when they watch people shouting at each other. And the ongoing civilized debate that is a cornerstone of American democracy can be lost in the process. All of this is accelerated by the internet. About eight million people log on to political blogs or partisan web journals every day, creating virtual communities of like-minded partisans who demonize each other.
Some politicians, partisans themselves, see the problem but not the solution. Senator Barack Obama (D. IL.) tells Stephanopoulos: "I think that culturally right now we have a system in which we don't have a broad conversation among people who don't agree with each other. And one of the biggest challenges I think we face as a nation is, how do we create those spaces? Supposedly the Senate, the body on which I serve, is supposed to be the greatest deliberative body in the world... It's not happening." Republic North Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham adds: "The best evidence I think of how polarized America has become is that it makes news when Democrats and Republicans do something of substance together, and that truly is a shame. We've gone from the Senate being presumed to be above party politics to where the news is we rejected party politics."
"State of the Union" is produced by Sarah Koch and Martin Smith. Kayce Freed Jennings is the senior producer. Tom Yellin is the executive producer.
The bedrock of democracy is an informed and engaged populace. That's where reform starts and ends. I thinking blaming media and insisting that it shift its paradigm is naive in the extreme and smacks of a basic misunderstanding in how programming is shaped by market forces and federal regulation (or deregulation in this case, since Reagan did such a good job of setting us up for our current tabloid TV universe)
ReplyDeleteOne short term solution is to problematize both Dem and Repub political agendas to the point where folks realize how few stripes these zebras have.
True progressives have to realize that the DNC has taken vote chasing to such an extreme there is no longer any difference between a centrist Dem and a centrist Republican. Because liberals are afraid they'll "lose" more of the vote if they do not vote Dem, the party has been handed over to "realists" who triangulate an agenda and end up tossing out the baby with the bathwater.
The GOP is in real trouble even if they don't want to admit it. There will no doubt be a fundamentalist extreme right-wing version of the Green Party out there pounding the streets in a matter of years. The religio-political agenda of BushCo has totally washed out traditional Republican values and alienated Republicans who believe in a limited Federal governmental system with more power vested in the states. Once that big split happens (probably led by Pat Robertson) it will be on and popping in politics again.
Agitate for that and for more (and earlier) political and historical education in our schools. That's the shortest path between two elections. Our system works fine, but it's only as healthy as the components. We HAVE TO abandon the "lesser of two evils" voting strategy and demand better representatives. Non-violent protests, banners, signs, visible signs of dissatisfaction work. Not voting, or voting out of desperation don't.
PS. Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
ReplyDeleteWe know Patrick. Patrick is a friend of ours. And Barbara, you're no Patrick Meighan.
For one thing, he's an intellect and a gentleman. For another, he knows hyprocricy when he sees it. But then, failing to detect hypocricy in oneself is probably the entry fee to Daily Kos.
Er, doesn't Germany have a pretty decent health care system? And France? And all of the Nordic states? And Canada?
ReplyDeleteWe have a system in the US where something like 25% of adults have no insurance. Our trauma system is teetering on the brink of collapse. We spend something like 40% of the money that goes to healthcare on administrative costs, as opposed to Canada's 12%.
There are all kinds of "national" systems out there, beyond the British model.
Oh, and didn't I recently read that the Brits are healthier than Americans, by and large?
Great post, Barbara. I'll definitely be visiting Mahablog.
And what's the deal with Bart? He gets paid to troll here, right? To keep him in cheesy snackage?
The PNAC gang is pinko?
ReplyDeleteAction solution concept encompassing Barbara's keypoints and one not specifically mentioned, that is campaign finance reform:
ReplyDelete1. Elect Democratic Congress.
2. Address "media reform" and campaign finance by:
a. Pass legislation mandating that all campaign communication is delivered via the public broadcasting system (PBS & NPR).
b. During these campaign time periods of several hours every day require all broadcasters to carry these programs or go black.
c. Require programs to be substantive in content and length, meaning no campaign media less than 5 minutes long, for example, and absolutely no political ads.
d. As a condition of retaining FCC licenses, require stations to honor a reinstated Fairness Doctrine through long-form political programming that attains overall balance.
NOTE: Also reinstate Community Ascertainment requiring broadcast license holders to determine from first hand contact specifically what its community of service ranks as high priority. This eliminates the current game of politicking around gay marriage, flag burning, and other fabricated issues.
e. No political ads. Period.
f. Rigorous 'blogosphere' vigilance to debunk print media campaign communication.
The airwaves belong to the people. A Democratic House makes this legislation possible. Aroused citizen-voters insure that this meritorious solution overwhelms and over-rides presidential veto.
Eyes Wide Open the moronic troll who jumped the shark long ago said...
ReplyDeleteLike where? England? Do you have even the slightest idea of what health care is like in England?
Do you? You're not English (but you are in desperate need of mental health care).
Strauss was a delusional fascist madman with a copy of the original draft (not written by Zionists) of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in his back pocket: his bible.
No, it was a hoax, and Leo Strauss was a Jew.
The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion, also The Protocols of the Sages of Zion or The Protocols of Zion (Russian: "Протоколы Сионских мудрецов" or "Сионские Протоколы"), is a text purporting to describe a plan to achieve global domination by Jews. Numerous independent investigations have repeatedly proven it to be a hoax; most notably, a series of articles printed in The Times of London in 1921 revealed that much of the material in the Protocols was plagiarized from earlier political satire that did not have an anti-Semitic theme.
Why bother? I'll just take my cue from Barbara and ignore you. I'd rather deal with Bart.
Regarding Media reform:
ReplyDeleteI concur, and would add that a significant problem is that our educational system has left many Americans without a proper understanding of the function of the media in the first place. It thus behooves those who wish to halt the erosion of democracy to educate themselves about the media so that they can help transmit this knowledge to the public at large.
To this affect, I would recommend reading
1. The Elements of Journalism
This short book explains consicely the purpose and values of a free press.
2. The New Media Monopoly
This one explains where media went wrong. The author, Ben Bagidikian, was way ahead of the curve. He was called alarmist in 1983 when he warned that media consolodation threatened a free press. The number of media outlets has declined in every edition of the book that has been released since then.
Also, this is a good site to dive into the subject with
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, he's an intellect and a gentleman. For another, he knows hyprocricy when he sees it.
ReplyDeleteWell Barbara is certainly no gentleman but I bet she can spell "hypocrisy" when she sees it.
Maybe “Pootie Poot” is code for “comrade.”
ReplyDelete“Hard work is damn near as overrated as monogamy.” –Huey Long
ReplyDeleteI think Huey would have made a good neocon. Of course those occasional bursts of honesty would have had to go.
Maybe that’s why Dubya quit drinking.
I was once engaged in a debate with a wingnut about national health care. They found an article about healthcare in England becoming an awful mess. As I read the piece, I realized that it was about the recent move to privatize the nationalized system (Blair and New Labour) that had made health care in Britain a costly nightmare. When I pointed this out to the wingnut, they were truly red. Read the news to see what's happening to Blair and the "New Labour" party.
ReplyDeleteFrom Huffpo 3/2006, (statistics can lie, but it's usually the ones funded by corporate interests. leftists don't have the money to buy false stats.)
Cuba Has Better Medical Care Than The United States
Statistics don't lie.
Figures from the World Health Organization clearly show that The United States lags behind 36 other countries in overall health system performance ranging from infant mortality, to adult mortality, to life expectancy.
20 countries in Europe and four countries in Asia have a better life expectancy than the U.S. If you are a male between the ages of 15 and 59, your chances of dying are higher in the U.S. (140 per thousand) than in Canada, 95, Costa Rica 127, Chile 134, and Cuba, 138.
The U.S. Health system looks especially dysfunctional when you consider how much money we spend per capita on healthcare -- $6,000 plus per year, twice as much as any other country -- and how little we get for it.
Canada spends $2,163 and boasts a life expectancy of 79.8 years, two and a half years longer than the US. Their infant mortality rate per thousand is also better than ours, as is their adult mortality rate.
Switzerland spends about 11% of its Gross Domestic Product on universal health care for all its citizens, while the U.S. (with 50 million uninsured this year) spends 15% of GDP with embarrassing results.
One grand irony, Cuba whose economy has been bankrupt for the last decade -- food shortages, drug shortages, chronic unemployment, etc. -- and which annually spends a miserly $185 per person on health care, has better infant and adult mortality rates than the US, and has a life expectancy nearly equal to ours.
Why has our vaunted free enterprise system -- which has produced such great benefits in delivery of most goods and services -- failed so completely with regard to this most fundamental need?
Simple, buyers don't shop for health care. Sick people don't negotiate with doctors or hospitals or drug companies. They don't care what it costs; insurance or the government will pay. This vulnerability has been exploited and hijacked by greedy doctors, drug companies, insurers, personal injury lawyers, HMOs, and hospitals. About 50% of health care funds never even get to doctors or hospitals -- which themselves run bloated operations.
Maybe we have finally reached the "Tipping Point". Not because people are needlessly dying, but because big business is being crippled by astronomical health costs.
US companies -- with employer funded health plans -- are having a hard time competing in world markets. General Motors spends more on worker health care ($1,400 per vehicle) than they spend on steel for each car they produce. "The three big auto makers are "HMOs on wheels" says Goldman Sachs analyst Gary Lapidus.
Employer funded health insurance is a relic of the past according to the growing clamor by big business. We don't want to pay for it any more and the added costs make our products uncompetitive in world markets.
The new Massachusetts law mandating health insurance -- just as the state requires auto insurance -- is a bold leap into an uncertain future, but it is an ad hoc band-aid which hopefully will lead to something more.
The long-term answer is obvious. Adopt a single-payer system like Canada's. Not socialized medicine. Doctors would remain private. By cutting out the bureaucracy, needless lawsuits, and curbing greed, the US could save 50% of the monies now being squandered, more than enough to cover the 50 million uninsured, according to a General Accounting Office and Congressional Budget Office report.
Ironically, we already have a successful single-payer healthcare program. Medicare, which covers people over 65, has an administrative and overhead cost of just 2%. Compare this low figure with the $399 billion spent on administrative middleman services in the free-market sector of health care last year. The simple step of data sharing of medical records could save $140 billion per year according too a recent Federal study.
Critics charge that a single-payer system would lead to a rationing of medicine and long waits. But we already ration medicine, not by need, or efficacy of the treatment, but by how much money you have. If you are rich, you can have all you want. If you are poor, unemployed, self-employed, sorry. 18,000 Americans die each year for lack of care according to the Institute of Medicine.
The right says that single-payer systems have not been adequately tested. But this is an obvious pretext by for-profit interest groups. Single-payer systems have been worked for many decades in 20 countries around the world.
The facts are clear: single-payer systems work and they save money. The Germans, French, Australians, Swiss, and Canadians all benefit from universal healthcare at less than half the cost that Americans pay for an incomplete system. Our for-profit healthcare system is a gambling scheme with the explicit goal of excluding the sick.
Good luck Massachusetts. Maybe your example, big business, and growing outrage will goad the dithering federal government into action.
Someday, inevitably, America will join the civilized world and provide universal care. It should be sooner rather than later.
I’m afraid Eyes Wide Open has, indeed, become nothing more than a troll.
ReplyDeleteThere once was a time that if you ignored objectionable Objectivist rot, that ol’ Wide Eyes occasionally had something relevant to say. No more.
His posts are now intentionally rude and insulting, intended to hijack the thread away from the topic at hand.
It is very similar to what happen to poor, pitiful Shaughnessy who crashed and burned into irrelevancy, and whose final posts descended into nothing more than irrational insults that left everyone embarrassed for him.
It is no accident that ol’ Wide Eyes remained his only defender. And now we see him beginning to suffer a similar fate. Here we go again.
Anon - what you said - about healthcare, I mean. The single best thing we could do to increase the competitiveness of American companies is to establish a national health care system. This is why CEOs like Newscorp's (yeah, Rupert's Newscorp) Peter Chernin campaigned for John Kerry in '04. It's not only the moral, just thing to do. It's the practical thing as well...
ReplyDeleteEWO will not countenance anyone who does not bow, scrape and genuflect before the Ayatollah Rand. If you ridicule her holiness, he will engage in Eternal Jihad against you.
ReplyDeleteother lisa... The single best thing we could do to increase the competitiveness of American companies is to establish a national health care system. This is why CEOs like Newscorp's (yeah, Rupert's Newscorp) Peter Chernin campaigned for John Kerry in '04. It's not only the moral, just thing to do. It's the practical thing as well...
ReplyDeleteBwahahaha! I believe it! They are all for "corporate socialism". That's OK with them. I agree with you. It's a basic right, even if it's not explicitly in the constitution, although I can't see how you are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness if you a dead, crippled or sick.
Hey, corporations are people too!
ReplyDelete*snort*!
Well, if I were queen of the universe, the corporations would pay too, some additional payroll tax or something, into the system. They'd still save money and have the risk spread out over a wider pool.
Everybody wins, if we do it right.
Other Lisa said...
ReplyDeleteHey, corporations are people too!
*snort*!
Corporations are not just any people, they are Super Citizens! And they are Gang Bangers, too.
You can read that book on line (second link) or download the pdf. Very good if you haven't seen it before. :-)
I hesitate to admit it, (because I am male and if we could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics next to every tavern) but I were "King of the Universe" I considered giving the wingnuts the personhood of the fetus if we could get back the personhood of the corporations, but then I would suffer the wrath of many you "Queens of the Universe" so I decided against it.
ReplyDeleteWell, there's that Canadian documentary which I still haven't seen, the one that posits corporations are indeed people - of the sociopathic sort. Not too far off the mark, I'm afraid...
ReplyDeleteThanks for the links. I'll go there with my DSM manual...
EWO,
ReplyDeleteIt’s true that most people of intellectual integrity build theoretical structures based on their perceptions which remain plastic but gradually solidify over time. But it appears you’ve discounted the possibility that many neocons are political opportunists (perhaps lifelong) - less interested in leaving behind a legacy of public service or greatness and more involved with personal gain. Actions speak louder than words. “Neoconservatism” is the current horse.
Oh for god's sake. Unlike the rational discourse of the Right, wherein commentators call for the execution of NY Times editors and label 9/11 widows scheming harpies whose dead husbands certainly would have left them if they hadn't, well, died. And let's not forget the labeling of anyone who disagreed with the Iraq War as cut and run traitors.
ReplyDeletePlease. You don't have a leg to stand on here.
other lisa... Please. You [shooter] don't have a leg to stand on here.
ReplyDeleteBut on the upside, irony is alive and well!
Hey, I could have sworn somebody told me irony was dead in the post 9/11 world...
ReplyDeleteThe "loyal opposition" Barbara refers to is the minority that our system was desinged to protect from the majority. In Bush's Bizarro world, Shooter insists that the "loyal opposition" is the disenfranchised majority.
ReplyDeleteRemember Nixon's Silent Majority? You know why it was silent> It didn't exist. It was a rhetorical construct and device. This majority exists and always has. It is no longer silent and it's pissed off. Fringe views like yours (and those of a few wealthy plutocratic corporatists) are not prevalent, the norm, or even mainstream. Shooter, you are the minority that needs protection. Behave your self and be the loyal minority opposition. It's time for you to be the silent minority. STFU!
Is this shooter242 always this dull? I can watch Hannity for better delivered right wing "viewpoint."
ReplyDeleteOther Lisa said...
ReplyDeleteHey, I could have sworn somebody told me irony was dead in the post 9/11 world...
I think it actually expired in the post Pearl Harbor world but wasn't interred until after 9/11.
The right wing has never been the loyal minority opposition, although they have always been a minority. They were the loyalists and traitors during the Revolution. They fired the first shot in 1861. They tried a coup d'etat against FDR in 1933, the Business Plot or The White House Putsch and so it goes. We will always have to deal with them because in our system we don't putt them up against a wall and shoot them.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIs this shooter242 always this dull? I can watch Hannity for better delivered right wing "viewpoint."
Actually, that's one of his better efforts. The constant practicing of empty rhetoric and repetitive assertions of untruths is improving his delivery but no one is buying the product.
You should all read or listen to the full text of Nixon's Silent Majority speech. These guys never deliver what they promise. They sell the same thing that gets rejected by the American people over and over again and they do it by repackaging it. It's a Pet Rock.
ReplyDeleteShooter thinks he's Marshall McCluhan. That just cracks me up!
Nixon's "Silent Majority" Speech
During his successful campaign for the Presidency in 1968, Richard Nixon promised he had a "secret plan" to end the war in Vietnam. Yet the President decided early in his administration that a quick withdrawal "would result in a collapse of confidence in American leadership...A nation cannot remain great if it betrays its allies and lets down its friends."
Many Americans were unhappy when an end to the war did not materialize. In October 1969, protesters staged a huge rally in Washington, D.C. On November 3, the nation eagerly tuned in to a major Nixon television address on Vietnam policy.
Nov. 3, 1969: The Speech
Instead of announcing the end to the war that he had promised in the campaign, Nixon outlined his policy of "Vietnamization," which provided for American troop reductions but a continuation of fighting. He repeated what he had argued before: the United States had to achieve "peace with honor" and to avoid an overly sudden withdrawal.
At the end of the speech, he called for the "great silent majority" to support him in this goal:
...I recognize that some of my fellow citizens disagree with the plan for peace that I have chosen. Honest and patriotic Americans have reached different conclusions as to how peace should be achieved. In San Francisco a few weeks ago, I saw demonstrators carrying signs reading, "Lose the war in Vietnam. Bring the boys home."
Antiwar protesters seizedthe term "silent majority" and defined it anew. Well, one of the strengths of our society is that any American has a right to reach that conclusion and to advocate that point of view. But as President of the United States, I would be untrue to my oath of office to be dictated by the minority who hold that point of view and who try to impose it on the natioin by mounting demonstrations in the street...
And now I would like to address a word, if I may, to the young people of this nation who are particularly concerned, and I understand why they are concerned about this war. I respect your idealism. I share your concern for peace. I want peace as much as you do. There are powerful personal reasons I want to end this war. This week I will have to sign 83 letters to mothers, fathers, wives and loved ones of men who have given their lives for America in Vietnam.
It is very little satisfaction to me that this is only one-third as many letters as I signed the first week in office. There is nothing I want to do more than to see the day when I do not have to write any more of those letters...
And I want to end the war for another reason. I want to end it so that the energy and dedication of you, our yound people, now too often directed into bitter hatred against those reponsible for the war, can be turned to the great challenges of peace, a better life for all Americans, a better life for all people on this earth...
Let historians not record that, when America was the most powerful nation in the world, we passed on the other side of the road and allowed the last hopes for peace and freedom of millions of people to be suffocated by the forces of totalitarianism.
So tonight, to you, the great silent majority of my fellow Americans, I ask for your support. I pledged in my campaign for the Presidency to end the war in a way that we could win the peace. I have initiated a plan of action which will enable me to keep that pledge. The more support I can have from the American people, the sooner that pledge can be redeemed. For the more divided we are at home, the less likely the enemy is to negotiate in Paris.
Let us be united for peace. Let us also be united against defeat. Because let us understand: North Vietnam cannot defeat or humiliate the United States. Only Americans can do that...
The Aftermath of the Speech
Polls appeared to indicate that a "silent majority" sided with Nixon. The day after the speech, as supportive telegrams and letters streamed in to the White House, an administration official clarified Nixon's concept of "silent majority": a "large and normally undemonstrative cross section of the country that until last night refrained from articulating its opinions on the war." (quoted in the New York Times, November 5, 1969)
Opponents of the war responded on November 15 with "Moratorium Day": 500,000 protesters gathered at the Washington Monument. Nixon was so confident the nation was behind him that he informed the press he was watching a football game as the rally unfolded. Positive public reaction to the "silent majority" speech had boosted his confidence. He pledged to continue the war and declared he would not permit U.S. policy to be "dictated" by a minority staging "demonstrations in the streets."
Nixon's continuation of the war resulted in the invasion of Cambodia in April, 1970 -- and a far greater number of "demonstrations in the streets" than he could have imagined.
Shooter242:
ReplyDeleteSince Barbara’s asleep, and I can’t, I’ll play. But I do have my own opinions which will vary from hers.
“The bitterness of losing to Bush twice is the fundamental basis for most thought from the left.”
>No. It’s that he’s much worse than expected. Reagan and Bush41 were far more competent. The inability of righties to hit each and every anti-Bush point head on, instead of using the blanket excuse of “hate” or “bitterness” (which suggests rationalization or lack of critical thinking), adds to this "bitterness".
“It is the absolute immaturity, of the inability, to accept the reality of that situation -- that also forms the basis of this country's inability to trust the left with leadership.”
>So you’re suggesting their attempts at public debate is wrong, somehow?
“The mass media always has and still to this day belongs to the left.”
>Based on what? A study done by Groseclose and his crew of right wingers where scientific repeatability was never proven by an equally left wing slanted crew? The E&P study which demonstrated that reporters had a “liberal” mindset (arguably a talent reqd for the job) but failed to mention the bias of their management, advertisers, and owners? (ex. Rather/Redstone) If most of the market is conservative, and the media is a business, why is the media liberal again?
“it is the message that leads to votes.”
>No. It’s identity that leads to most votes. Check your red/blue county maps.
”The voters tossed you out, not Republicans. The extent to which Republicans were given, yes given, the reins of government is a reflection of dissatisfaction with Democrats.”
>Agreed to a point. NAFTA didn’t seem very democratic or even paleo to me. But others would argue about the close votes.. Not me.
“Here's a good example of that self delusion. Were there any riots after the decision? No... Were there comments? Absolutely, most of which centered around examining Constitutional ways to remedy the problem as invited by the court.”
>And many more which again, suggested that the liberals in the courts were traitors and/or that we’d lose the WOT as a result. Maybe I’m not looking hard enough, but I didn’t see much “remedy” out there.
”The problem you have isn't that your message isn't getting out, you problem is that your message IS getting out!”
>Complex and a huge debate in itself. Corporatists and their people (with either a dem or rep face) have been in control for over two decades now. They don’t represent Americans, only their bottom lines.
”Doing something well is the road back to responsibility.”
>LOL! Coming from a Bush supporter?
notBOB
eyes wide open (apparently not) is apparently unaware that Britain undertook a study of France's healthcare system in order to correct their own because France has the best health care system in the world. (You can google further to get information on this statistic, if you will open your eyes.)
ReplyDeleteI have been told my a military recruiter who came after my autistic son that I should move to France since I disagree with Bush.
As a private citizen I was accused of "near-sedition" by one of the "blockheads for Bush," found out about it from a third party, and told him that I would hold him responsible if harm came to others within my circle because he identified me online (again, without my knowledge) after a face to face discussion. He removed his post when he thought he could be held responsible for his malicious statements.
The last time I publically celebrated the 4th of July was in 2000. I had a sign that said "the Best Democracy Money Can Buy," was told to stop by people "who just wanted to enjoy the parade."
Yes, Americans just want to enjoy the parade too often now. They didn't care that we may not have real elections anymore.
If the far right thinks that liberals are against self-defense, whether for this nation or their persons, they are wrong. They have so destroyed the idea of a community of citizens at this point that I detest them as a body...but this was only after years and years of "tolerating" them..actually, it was more along the line of rolling my eyes that anyone could think Rush Limbaugh was anything other than a talking pig.
It is beyond ironic that now that liberals have HAD IT with fascist speak (because that's what it is), we're supposed to engage in civil discourse.
well, you made the mess, so if you want to enjoy the benefits of tax redistribution from blue states to red ones, you had better fix your own house.
I am to the point that I wonder if "divorce" is the only option. When your supposed 'partner" is abusive and derives a sense of worth by continuously threatening your survival, sometimes the only way to change the situation is to cut the ties.
I'm sick of the rage, and the blaming of others for the problems you have created. I'm sick of how you have trashed the good name of my country and have destroyed so much good that this nation created by your policies and your ignorant attitudes toward just about everything.
I'm sick of you constantly trying to undermine the constitution for your religious beliefs or your irrational fear of rule of law.
So, if republicans don't want to be associated with bushco, they should form a third party or else kick out the worthless scum who now control your party.
Now, that wasn't polite at all, was it? It took a lot to push me to the point where I actually think you're a danger to democracy, but here we are.
Barbara O'Brien said...
ReplyDeletebart: FYI, I do not read your comments and will not respond to them further. I can think of more interesting ways to waste time, like cleaning mold out of the refrigerator.
Yet another example of how you recognize "the ground rules of the society must encourage tolerance and civility in public debate?"
You have just proven my point about your hypocrisy far better than I ever could have.
To Barbara -
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the reasons I've enjoyed your posts the most. The discussion here has been considerably more lively and reasoned than most others the past week.
Additionally its touched on serious issues and invited serious debate on them (Bart and Shooter242's less-than-intelligible contributions notwithstanding).
I would like to postulate that there are indeed still shared values and a shared political culture within our body politic, ones more positive than espoused by Coulter, Limbaugh, Buchannan, Matthews and the rest. I also believe the 'vox populi' upon which our civic culture is based has, unfortunately, been temporarily hijacked by these (dim) luminaries and the values we've cherished tainted as a result. George W Bush and his Aministration is simply the most recent, most damaging consequence we've seen to date.
Shooter242's point (the written one as opposed to the one atop his/her head) that there were no riots or the like over the recent Hamdan decision overlooks - possibly deliberately - the poisonous atmosphere presently covering public discourse in this country, nor acknowledging the potential dangers therein. His short laundry list of economic talking points and insistence that 'media is still controlled by the left' comes from and feeds the same, effectively stiffling alternate voices and views.
This is not saying anything new, of course, particularly for those of us who've been here awhile.
Can I quantitatively prove this? No, nor do I think such 'proof' is even possible to conceive or produce given we're talking about nebulous philosophical and ideological frameworks here. Chalk it up to faith.
Thanks again, Barbara. See you on the flip side.
From Bart at 9:33am:
ReplyDelete"You have just proven my point about your hypocrisy far better than I ever could have."
Odd. I took it that she was simply saying *you* weren't saying anything of interest. Ever.
Do grow up, will you? Its not as if anyone here is actually obligated to acknowledge your existence.
"Normal" is the operative word. Don’t we consider “normal” to be what we’ve experience in our 70+ or so years? If you asked an American in 1930 what normal was, what would be the answer? Certainly it would not our definition of normal. “Normal” (the word) is associative—normal depends on what we, by personal experience, associate with it. And it’s a definition you can’t impose on anyone else who’s experience has been different. For example, I remember when the Post Office (not the currently misnamed Postal Service) was respected, honored, and even mythologized in the Pony Express and the “… from his appointed rounds” slogan over the main post office in Washington, DC. The very idea of tampering with the mail or disrupting its delivery was a federal crime of the highest order. Today, surveys show that young people don’t distinguish between any of the people who deliver to their homes—they’re all the same to them.
ReplyDeleteYoung Americans know only what they are currently experiencing, and no writing, no example, no event, nothing will change that until they personally experience otherwise. That’s why we have to take back the government from the radical right wing—to give them an example of our normal looks like.
I agree with the essayist that “normal,” as she uses it, refers to the period following WWII when America finally had a viable and growing middle-class (and I will do anything to get it back). Those of us who read this and responded knew what “normal” was code for, but someone from the other side (the dark one), normal is what we have now.
I think at least 3 other factors need to be added to Barbara's:
ReplyDelete(1) Prosperity. It's difficult to get worked up about "politics" when everyone is well fed and no one is actually at our borders, sinking our ships, ordering us to align with them, etc. (No, a few hijackings and bombings do NOT count, they are entirely without substance as a threat.) Politics becomes all shrillness, an unnecessary exercise. It's easier to not vote and not care. Prosperity lets people turn inward and focus solely on consumption. Government has become more of a provider of services (corporate "customer service," anyone?) than a tool for implementation of principles that have won out in the public arena. And as we become more materially wealthy (some of us), it becomes easier to complain about taxes. I don't use welfare, why should poor people? I buy my own health insurance, etc.
(2) Corporate values. Thanks partly to Uncle Ronnie, big corporations run our economy and our culture, largely through mass media as Barbara indicates. Universities have become corporations; corporations have moved into higher education. Corporations fund research. Universities have less money now thanks to the shifting of these costs on states, who have to cut subsidies for higher learning. This is a clear case of the infrastructure of liberal democracy unraveling, dissolving, because of antisocial neoconservative policies.
Curiously, one side effect of the move over the last century toward employer-subsidized health insurance (a compromise between a national health care system and none at all) has been to make employees more dependent on our employers. I'd speak up more, act out more, if I weren't afraid to lose my job and my health insurance. In a way we have made life too easy for ourselves.
(3) Legislative gridlock. The corporations own Congress too, and they fund both sides of the aisle. Congress gets less done than it used to. This feeds into #1, because it's easy to not care when it becomes impossible to care. If Democrats in Congress can't protect their own turf, why should we?
Richard, government has the power to regulate commerce. They regulate quality where necessary, and that would be impossible to do for the media. But it can regulate mergers and increase real diversity. This is something government already has the right, duty, and power to do.
ReplyDeletea little "fwiw" moment, if my memory serves.
ReplyDeletethe Jacobins (who, btw, were lawyers and other upwardly mobile citizens, not the poor sans-culottes), did not start the French Revolutionary Wars. Marie Antoinette was from Austria and the monarchy there started to form armies and coalitions with other monarchies long before the Jacobins gained power. At least 2 years before. In fact, the Jacobins were opposed to a declaration of war at first.
The Girondists were in power when France declared war on Austria. Prussia sided with Austria, (1792). The Girondists were the ones who wanted to export revolution because they reasoned that the only way to defeat the continental monarchies was to destroy them. btw, some revolutionaries were also monarchists (supporting a constitutional monarchy like England est. with the Glorious Revolution a hundred years before.) By the outbreak of war, the monarchy was effectively demolished in France, tho it still had supporters. Because the Girondists' war caused a lot of suffering among the people, the sans-culottes aligned with the Jacobins to overthrow the war mongering Girondists.
The Jacobin reign of terror was from 1793-94. The Jacobins (sitting on the far left of the Assembly) and the remaining royalists (sitting on the far right) opposed the formation of a bicarmeral legislature even after the Jacobins had been overthrown, and there riots which were put down by the army. This gave rise to Napoleon, not the Jacobins per se.
While it's useful for polemicists here to equate the Bush neo-cons with the Jacobin terror and war, the truth is that it was a failure of the "center" -which was totally anti-monarchist and on the left and in the majority -- to hold against both far left and far right that led to Napoleon's military dictatorship.
Maybe that's the lesson this nation (and the democrats) need to take from the initial failure of the French to institute a representative democracy.
If moderate Republicans and all Democrats to the right of Ward Churchill do not vociferously oppose the Bush Republican coalition (neo-cons, talibornagains, and the destroyers of a social safety net) then they have failed to uphold their responsibility to protect and defend the constitution.
It's tricky when a nation feels both an internal and external threat, but the internal one is what will destroy you the fastest, perhaps.
MD,
ReplyDeleteYou need to stop relying on the ravings of a paleo who writes for VDARE (wears a white sheet while burning crosses) and other wingnuts, like Ron Paul. Just because they oppose neocons does not make them your friend. It only makes them the enemy of your enemy. Many different groups coalesced into the necon movement, like "Scoop" Jackson, Democrat liberal hawks. Hardly all former Trotskyites. Paul Craig Roberts probably agrees with Milton Friedman that Richard M. Nixon was a socialist.
I'm reading with amusement the nth declaration that what needs to be done is 'educate' the unwashed into critical thinking, that the core curriculum in our schools needs to include a strong grounding in theoretical and applied politics, etc.
ReplyDeleteThis simply will not work. Or rather, it would work, albeit probably in ways not intended, but actually implementing these ideas is - at least for the moment - impractical. Supremely so, and for all the usual reasons, including the sheer scope of the project and the studied opposition from the usual suspects.
In contrast, bringing back the Fairness Doctrine in a form that would pass Constitutional muster would be relatively easy.
After all, who could be against the Equal Time Amendment (ETA)? The right is convinced that there is a liberal slant to the media, or so they say, so it should be easy to browbeat them with the argument that the ETA would go a long way towards eliminating that institutional bias. Ditto for the left.
Best of all, this could be done by simple legislative fiat. You're mad at the media, he's mad at the media, she's mad at the media, they're mad at the media . . . At this point, who isn't convinced that they're not in the pocket of Big Business/the Left/the Right, et al? So let's all get on board the ETA train and reform the miserable trade.
Barbara, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that 'new technologies', ie, web-based resources are the pallitive. To the extent that any significant percentage of the populace forms their voting stance on said resources, I'm very much afraid that rather than seek out new information, they simply find the sites that they find most agreeable, that is, they go for the comfort zone and end up in places that confirm their prejudices rather than challenge them.
ReplyDeleteIf moderate Republicans and all Democrats to the right of Ward Churchill
ReplyDeleteExactly what this is about. I see nothing in Ward Churchill's politics, aside from his desire to speak his mind and criticize this government's foreign policy, that is in any way extreme. I don't see it in Noam Chomsky either. If these voices had been heard more often, we might not be in this mess.
I believe the neocons are anti-socialism, which would put them on the right in this model. Even if I'm mistaken on that point, however, if we use the "by their fruits ye shall know them" rule -- since they have allied themselves with other right-wing ideologies, that's a big clue they belong on the right. So that's where I put 'em.
ReplyDeleteOne definition of fascism is the marriage of business and government. Bushco and the neocons are a form of corporate socialism.
Media Matters
ReplyDeleteFrom Paul Waldman:
The events of the past week provide one more demonstration that progressives must begin to fully appreciate the importance of the media in our political life. Look what happened: Conservatives began a coordinated attack on a news organization, and suddenly we weren't talking about Iraq or about anything else, we were actually debating whether The New York Times should be prosecuted for treason.
And journalists could barely summon the energy to defend not just their colleagues, but their profession -- let alone the citizens they are supposed to serve. At the same time that they were being subjected to this assault, they continued to view the political world through a lens created by the very people battering them mercilessly.
In recent editions of our weekly wrap-up, Jamison Foser has been making the case that, as he wrote back on May 26, "The defining issue of our time is the media." Conservatives obviously understand this fact. Perhaps soon progressives will come to the same understanding.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200607010004
There is an even greater cost of the war – the legal system that protects liberty, a human achievement for which countless numbers of people gave their lives over the centuries. The Bush administration used September 11 to whip up fear and hysteria and to employ these weapons against American liberty. The Orwellian-named Patriot Act has destroyed habeas corpus. The executive branch has gained the unaccountable power to detain American citizens on mere suspicion or accusation, without evidence, and to hold Americans indefinitely without a trial.
ReplyDeleteFoolishly, many Americans believe this power can only be used against terrorists. Americans don’t realize that the government can declare anyone to be a terrorist suspect. As no evidence is required, it is entirely up to the government to decide who is a terrorist. Thus, the power is unaccountable. Unaccountable power is the source of tyranny.
The English-speaking world has not seen such power since the 16th and 17th centuries when the Court of Star Chamber became a political weapon used against the king’s opponents and to circumvent Parliament. The Star Chamber dispensed with juries, permitted hearsay evidence, and became so reviled that "Star Chamber" became a byword for injustice. The Long Parliament abolished the Star Chamber in 1641. In obedience to the Bush regime, the US Congress resurrected it with the Patriot Act. Can anything be more Orwellian than identifying patriotism with the abolition of habeas corpus?
-Paul Craig Roberts.
PS. Ron Paul is not cozy with the Caryle Group as is George Soros.
PPS. Links to all Kos articles advocating the repeal of the Patriot Act please?
PPS. Barbara thinks I am a "rightie". The defense rests.
Ms O'Brien,
ReplyDeletethat was a most excellent post, with insightful analysis of the precise problem, which is more than a hypothesis... I submit it is well-established and sufficiently proven by your analysis and by a detached observation of what has been happening in the USA over the past 40 years or so... the post-Korean War era being its inception.
I am sad to see the demagoguery replacing -- utterly so, not in some narrow cases -- what used to be sometimes heated, but generally open, discussions of differing political views. I know something is wrong when people accuse me of being a "liberal" or "leftard" when I know full well that my views are not beholden to either end of the supposed bipolar political spectrum. As you say, the "center" now is located as a pretty far-right, corporatocratic, warmongering, very faux-conservative view, verging on the protofascism of the PNAC "neocon" viewpoint.
I would like to say that Hamdan v Rumsfeld is the first salvo in dismantling the imperious attitude of the Bush/Cheney Admin's rather kingly view of the POTUS powers, but I'm more likely to believe that the SCOTUS can be expected to spend more of its time solidifying the dissenting views offered by Messrs Thomas, Scalia and Alito, all of whom voice the Cheney-esque view of the unfettered Kingly role of the POTUS.
I have deep fears that this current trend will result in a new "9/11" scenario that will result in serious warfare against the USA, while the Bush/Cheney Admin's gang of PNAC folks will bunker up and remain safe. I don't want to leave America and move to another country, nor repatriate in another country, but I'm afraid that may be the only safe, self-protective view and action to follow.
Again, very well said.
I too do not understand Kos' attitude toward advocacy of Green candidates. Is it because he thinks that these candidates have no chance of winning? Maybe he is right in discouraging those advocating these candidates, but surely there are congressional districts where Greens have a good chance of winning. Shouldn't Kos identity these districts and work with the Greens to advocate for these people? As many have pointed out the public discourse needs to be moved to the left. What better way than to get radical leftists in Congress to oppose and shout down the radical conservatives who have gained so many seats? Who else will call these radical cons on their BS and manipulative euphemisms that are used to cover their radical agenda? The Greens are not the whole truth, but they are an essential element of the truth that needs a public forum and legitimacy.
ReplyDeleteIf moderate Republicans and all Democrats to the right of Ward Churchill...
ReplyDeleteExactly what this is about. I see nothing in Ward Churchill's politics, aside from his desire to speak his mind and criticize this government's foreign policy, that is in any way extreme. I don't see it in Noam Chomsky either. If these voices had been heard more often, we might not be in this mess.
imo, Ward Churchill isn't fit to shine Chomsky's shoes, but that's not the point of my post.
the point is that those who call themselves "centrists" cannot in any way afford to do the DLC shuffle b/c they empower the extremist right with such maneuvers and make themselves irrelevant for those on the left --who have maybe two ppl in the legislature who speak for them anyway.
that idiots in the U.S. think the media and democrats are raging liberals demonstrate (beyond their ignorance) that "reality-based" moderates would mean that the DLC=moderate republicans and the democratic party needs to remember who made them anything more than a passing mention in history (as in FDR.)
Well, the point is, that there are congressional districts where Greens could win. Almost all Republican discourse nowadays is simply propaganda, i.e., a manipulation and distortion of reality. The propaganda has become so divorced from reality, that the only effective counterweight that I can see are the Greens. They need representation in order to keep the public discourse honest, to bring it back to some semblance of reality.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of people are conservative in their views on national security and actually want less goverment. Your blog has many good points. Many republicans are extreme in the way they express their views and the democrats have many opportunity to get their views across. But all I hear is bashing on their part and no alternative views.
ReplyDeleteAll these attacks on Kos of late are because the net-roots are starting to become successful, and someone like Ned Lamont actually has a chance to beat Holy Joe.
ReplyDeleteThis terrifies not only Rove, but Whitman and the DLC/New Republic wing of the party that is fine with the neo-cons.
If Kos (and it's really lots and lots of other bloggers and activists not him) wasn't having an impact, and a big one, we wouldn't be hearing about this nonsense all the time.
Also, if the Greens were in any position to threaten anyone we'd hear them trashed too. I wouldn't be opposed to supporting a Green candidate at the local level under the right circumstances, but those circumstances have this one single criteria: are you throwing your vote away? Yes or No.
Let's not forget it was the Green Party who insisted that there wasn't a bit of difference between Al Gore and George Bush, and those supporting the Green candidate threw their vote away.
imo, Ward Churchill isn't fit to shine Chomsky's shoes, but that's not the point of my post.
ReplyDeleteI doubt you know much about him or the research he did in Agents Of Repression: The FBI's Secret War Against the Black Panther Party & the American Indian Movement
WRT to COINTELPRO or you wouldn't say that either.
"A powerful indictment, with far-reaching implications concerning the treatment of political activists, especially those that are black or Native American." — Noam Chomsky.
WRT to his comment about blowback, i.e. "chickens home to roost"... what exactly? He didn't coin the term, someone at the CIA did and it's an observable, historical fact of life and bad foreign policy. The little Eichmann's comment isn't half as bad as any of Coulter's rantings and based on Hannah Arendt's writings. I still proudly wear my "Die! Yuppie Scum! T-shirt. They produce nothing and just push paper ripping off the poor and downtrodden of the third world so you can live in the style to which you've become accustomed at their expense. Deal with it. It's all true.
imo, Ward Churchill isn't fit to shine Chomsky's shoes, but that's not the point of my post.
ReplyDeletethe point is that those who call themselves "centrists" cannot in any way afford to do the DLC shuffle b/c they empower the extremist right with such maneuvers and make themselves irrelevant for those on the left --who have maybe two ppl in the legislature who speak for them anyway.
that idiots in the U.S. think the media and democrats are raging liberals demonstrate (beyond their ignorance) that "reality-based" moderates would mean that the DLC=moderate republicans and the democratic party needs to remember who made them anything more than a passing mention in history (as in FDR.)
6:21 PM
Well maybe you had better quit bashing Ward Churchill and start defending his right to say whatever he wants even if you don't agree with it. I happen to agree with it because it's mostly true, but even if I didn't, I defend to the death his right to say it. Or something Voltaire may have said along those lines...
You don't see Noam or Ward on TV, do you? But Coulter and Melanie Morgan, any Repuklican congressman and their ilk... now there are people who aren't fit to shine Ward Churchill's shoes, let alone kiss Chomsky's.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe majority of people are conservative in their views on national security and actually want less goverment. Your blog has many good points. Many republicans are extreme in the way they express their views and the democrats have many opportunity to get their views across. But all I hear is bashing on their part and no alternative views.
This is a perfect example of a worn out GOP talking point and an original though would die of loneliness in your empty, pointed little head.
WEIRDO... PPS. Barbara thinks I am a "rightie". The defense rests.
ReplyDeleteYou are just a kook.
Excellent post. I think you are right that reform would difficult but I suggest we could start by demanding that radio and TV broadcasters who have been the worst genuflectors to the Bush agenda obey their contractual obligation of serving the public interest in exchange for their broacast licenses. The same way that a driver's license is a previledge not a right that same is true of a broadcast license. TV stations that have an history of deception (remember the many cases of fake news segments?) should have their broacast license pulled. Every time an egregious lie makes it into the evening news a storm of complaints should go to the FCC. Kerry was treated viciously because the media failed to follow its duty to the public. Just broadcasting whatever crap comes out of the fax machine from Rove is not enough.
ReplyDeleteIf the Dems take the House they should do some serious investigations of the promises candidate Bush is rumored to have made to the chairman Welch of GE via Karl Rove as well as Welch's interference in ABC calling the 2000 election early.
As far as the new media I think we are on the brink of disaster here. If net neutrality fails access by the public to liberal or progressive websites will fall victim to "quality of service" excuses or extortionist demands as election years become "peak" periods. Independent or opposing voices will disappear at critical periods as website owners will find it hard to stay afloat. On that point I am surprised that in the recent Net Neutrality hearings in the audience there were only a handful of lobbyists for net interests while the telcos had overwhelmed the place. The telcos have spent millions to sell their rotten cheese while the our side has been relying mostly on the web itself to spread the gospel. Why is Google not matching the telco spending? I fear Congress may get the feeling that more goodies will come their way if the telcos win.
We are many years away from Green party candidates. The major stumbling block is their position on defense, for a host of reasons, and that's just a fact, not a criticism. In reality, there is not much difference between Greens and paleocon/Libertarians in that regard, and far more Greens are holding elected office than Libertarians who actually ran as Libertarians, instead of Republicans in name only.
ReplyDeleteWEIRDO...PS. Ron Paul is not cozy with the Caryle Group as is George Soros.
ReplyDeleteEven they wouldn't associate with him. Their racism is understated. It can't be allowed to get in the way of business. And Soros, a minor player, invested 100 million years ago...
As the company's reputation grew, so did its cast of players. Among its new backers were James Baker and Richard Darman (both Reagan and Bush administration alums) and investor George Soros, who chipped in some $100 million into the Carlyle Partners L.P. buyout fund. With the help of its 'access capitalists' such as Baker and Saudi Prince al-Waleed bin Talal (whom the firm helped add to his fortune in a 1991 Citicorp stock transaction), Carlyle made deals in the Middle East and Western Europe (including a bailout of Euro Disney) in the mid-1990s.
Republican Congressman from Texas... A few choice quotes from his "Freedom Watch" newsletter:
"If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be."
"Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e., support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action."
"Politically sensible blacks are outnumbered as decent people...I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city (Washington) are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."
"We don't think a child of 13 should be held responsible as a man of 23. That's true for most people, but black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs are as big, strong, tough, scary and culpable as any adult and should be treated as such."
From an interview with Texas Monthly.
In one issue of the Ron Paul Survival Report, which he had published since 1985, he called former U.S. representative Barbara Jordan a "fraud" and a "half-educated victimologist." In another issue, he cited reports that 85 percent of all black men in Washington, D.C., are arrested at some point: "Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the 'criminal justice system,' I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal." And under the headline "Terrorist Update," he wrote: "If you have ever been robbed by a black teenaged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be."
You need to stop visiting sites like Conspiracy Planet.
The collection of influential characters who now work, have worked, or have invested in the group would make the most convinced conspiracy theorists incredulous. They include among others, John Major, former British Prime Minister; Fidel Ramos, former Philippines President; Park Tae Joon, former South Korean Prime Minister; Saudi Prince Al-Walid; Colin Powell, former Secretary of State; James Baker III, former Secretary of State; Caspar Weinberger, former Defense Secretary; Richard Darman, former White House Budget Director; the billionaire George Soros, and even some bin Laden family members. You can add Alice Albright, daughter of Madeleine Albright, former Secretary of State; Arthur Lewitt, former SEC head; William Kennard, former head of the FCC, to this list. Finally, add in the Europeans: Karl Otto Poehl, former Bundesbank president; the now-deceased Henri Martre, who was president of Aerospatiale; and Etienne Davignon, former president of the Belgian Generale Holding Company.
w/r/t Kos,
ReplyDeleteI think it's sad that anyone takes him so seriously. He is a divider of the sort that blames everything on "Repugs" while letting all the Dems in the US Congress completely off the hook, and while applauding the corporate teat-suckling DNC/DLC arms of the Democratic Party.
If it were as simple as Dem vs Repub, we would not be in the current mire.
Kos is an egomaniac. Those who cheer him on merely feed his egomania. I don't think it needs any more food.
Supporting a Dem just because that person's a Dem is stupid, oversimple, and pathetically delusional... it assumes that all Dems are superior to all Repubs.
Last, someone above remarked that Green candidates have historically said Gore isn't much different from Barbara Bush. I'd agree. Gore is a hypocrite. His money, power and influence come from Occidental Petroleum, yet his current movie takes the oil industry and Americans' reliance on oil to task, without once mentioning that his own ability to make the movie is because of his oil wealth.
Hypocrite. Like the Bush Family.
re Kos, redux
ReplyDeleteMy opinions of him are based on his own writings on his own blog.
I don't follow the major news media nor do I follow any other form of lemming-leader pabulum merchandising.
I read from numerous sources and draw my own conclusions. Among those conclusions is that Markos Moulitsas Zuniga is an egomaniac who thinks that he and his philosophy will save America -- but only if Republicans are excluded from consideration. The basic truth is that there are MANY Republicans who disagree quite strenuously with the Cheney Admin and the PNAC and Karl Rove. To jettison the prospective support of those people is idiotic, and as I see it, the only reason Kos won't accept their support is because he has a history of denigrating all Repubs, and opining that Repubs are the only ones to blame.
Ms O'Brien, it is not an excuse to say that Kos is full of fame and testosterone. A mature intellect would not be swayed by either.
And more on point, it is not a legitimate response to my complaint that Kos seeks to divide along bare party lines, where the truth doesn't so divide itself, nor does wisdom, nor does morality, nor does ethical propriety.
Again, I think your original post was very well done. I just have a vastly different opinion on Kos. His views are egomaniacal and inable to admit error, at least as I've read them to date. And as a capper, he boots from his website any person who criticizes these things that I'm mentioning here. I know... I have been so booted.
"Reality based knowledge resources geared toward the time constrained."
ReplyDelete* Who judges "reality"?
"Bring back some kind of Fairness Doctrine and other safeguards in case the internet gets sabotaged by the powerful."
* Band-Aid solution that will be subverted easily.
"Make liberalism fun again. Not just the highbrow intellectual blogging stuff but sexy pundits, fun street protests"
"Market lines of products geared toward liberals and True Americans. Liberal toothpaste. FreeSpiritFries. If successful, the media of course, would have to follow."
* Um, Ive been to enough head festivals to know that "leftwing" consumer culture already exists in abundance. How many conservatives wear Che tees or other "hippie" clothing? I made my peace with the hypocricy who speak of "nonconformity" while wearing stereotypical "hippie" fashions as a deliberate fashion statement. The urge to conform is strong in humans, and conforming in non-conformity is nothing new.
"Make Jesus a liberal again."
* Religious passion ruined the right and it will ruin the left too.
"Take back control of language."
* Debating over the 'proper' usage of terms seems like an important first step, but it usually is a dead-end that wears everyone out for the real work. This is the kind of thing that fractures coalitions before they can get off the ground.
As an outsider looking in, I'd say that the political situation in US is in a potentially dangerous situaion.
ReplyDeleteWhatever attempts are made to actually discuss an issue and do so constructively, degenerates into shit-throwing (from both sides) and very few listens and considers what the other side has to say.
The focus lies on proving why his idea is bad (or worse, why his views make him a bad person), not on solving the problem.
Especially on the net with its anonymity, whenever a serious discussion is atempted, someone from either side makes a 'dumb' post (pure flame or personal attack) and the circus is off again (because the other side invariably responds in kind).
The political views are by now so far from eachother that debate doesn't produce any constructive results, and that's very dangerous, because what option does someone wanting to actually solve a problem have to do?
Create enough noice so he/she or the problem is noticed.
It's frighteningly easy to make violence be that 'noice'.
I do not want to see US take that road, so please, whatever you do, try to solve the current polarisation without bloodletting.
-Suntiger
I would love to remind you that the United States is a democratic republic, and not a pure democracy. Perhaps looking up what you stand for before you moan and wail is best. Also, before you hound on people and institutions you clearly give no chance for, please do me a favor and get the 40% who remain silent, and tell them to fufill their civic duty. If you don't like it, perhaps get off your rears and VOTE next time, hm? I can't wait to vote. I'm proud to finally be of age to vote. I hope perhaps in the future, I'll be part of a growing number of voters that particate instead of procrastinate. I'd also love to see a change in fairly much all systems. Congress is completely incompetent in it's functionality, and has become a place that needs some baby sitters called TERM LIMITS. It also sickens me that while people who complain about Bush fail to realize that his opponents might have done a far worse job at running the nation he Bush is doing right now. I would completely love to just wait for another attack to happen on US soil. Perhaps letting North Korea or Iran build up a miltary to strike us on home soil would be best, because nipping problems while their buds is an issue that is far too sensitive, it can't be touched, despite Clinton and other hailed democrats preforming similar situation pre and post Cold War. I also love the fact that some how all problems can be blamed on Bush, when, in actuality, it is everyone's fault for not preforming their own duties, either as a political figure, or as a voter. Speak next time, then the retrospect might not hurt as much.
ReplyDeleteI lived in Chad-land Florida during the 2000 election, and i have to tell you, the local news said it all. At least Kerry wasn't like Gore, and gave up when the final lap ended. I much prefer the alternative that has been elected thus far then our oh-so qualified competitors. Show me someone who is fairly progressive whilst not being incompetent, someone like a businessman to run the nation, instead of a lawyer or a congressman. People who clearly defficate their own words (and i apologize for the spelling errors in advance), only to later revive them later to cover themselves clearly isn't my kind of leader. I don't like everything Bush has done, but it sure seems like anyone pegging towards libral or ultra-libral would just as soon blame bush for the falsity that is Global Warming, then blame him for any other problem in their lives, because clearly, Bush is the anti-christ who will rule mankind for a millenium.
Like I said previously, politics land is a land if screaming babys, there should be someone who adds in some much needed "shut up" factors to make these children with mircophones and keyboards grow up and do something, rather then complain all day long, when we have a lovely bunch of said nations who disreguard forms of democracy, and vow for a more militant form of rule. I would love to see what would happen if Gore or Kerry were in office as North Korea, Iran, China , or many of the other nations that have a "Hate America" model of speech come to our doorstep and bomb the crud out of us. I suppose waiting for a situation like 9-11 or Pearl Harbor to wait again would be a better move?
Personally, I rather hate politics as a whole since it seems more like zealous religious groups now then agreeable friendly opposition with respectable opinions and view. If someone said "KILL ABORITON", they'd start up a firestorm. If someone said "NO MORE GUNS!", same scenario. Someone tries to suggest a method to fix the terrible educational systems in our nation, they'd be mobbed by people who are "clearly" more qualified in the debate, as I'm sure someone will brand me unqualified to debate about this since I'm a fresh college student, and fairly unseasoned in the field of politics. Well, I was in public school from pre-k to 12th, and I'd say a good 12 years went down the tube. Fix education, make people wise up while they grow up, and you've got a good solution there. Then perhaps we'd have more people able to even care about voting, or fixing problems like health care, taxes, freedoms and lack thereof.
Personally, I pity everyone around my age, because if you believe this is the end of times, you all are in for a headfirst collision into deep stuff when my generation comes of age politically. Not even a quarter of us, I believe, will be able to even run a business, much less a nation. So, place hope in your grandkids, or your great grandkids, because anyone between 13 and 25 now is just doomed to do worse when we have this kind of mess as an example to follow, and as i've noticed, each election year's winning man seems to do a worse and worse job (personally, I think there were very few good leaders of this nation, much less any other, we really have our hopes too high these days. Politics and good people don't mix.) I have no doubt that whoever wins the next election will do a far worse job then Bush, republican, conservative, democrat, or otherwise. The nation's collective lethargy and lack of retrospect spanning greater then 8 years will lead us to a very hard rock. I have no doubt we're screwed, because not one person in an election rung so far who had the guts to say "We have to change things" has survived the election, period. the 60% (give or take a few) that do vote, or even bother to remember the names of the runners for election so far have done a splended job of screwing themselves over. Congrads people. Congrads. You dug this hole yourself. Please actually do something about it come this fall, and 2008. I'll be doing my part, please do yours, legally.