Today's Washington Post has an article about ex-CIA officer Tyler Drumheller's claims that his warnings that Iraq intelligence used to justify the invasion of Iraq was flawed were ignored. The story begins
In late January 2003, as Secretary of State Colin Powell prepared to argue the Bush administration's case against Iraq at the United Nations, veteran CIA officer Tyler Drumheller sat down with a classified draft of Powell's speech to look for errors. He found a whopper: a claim about mobile biological labs built by Iraq for germ warfare.And the rest of the piece goes on to explain the problems that Drumheller had with the intelligence and his inability to make any impact on the use of these claims. It ends by noting that seven months after Colin Powell's U.N. speech, for which Powell had been told by CIA Director George Tenet that the mobile labs claims were solidly backed, Tenet called Powell to let him know that the intelligence used to make the claims was not credible.
Drumheller instantly recognized the source, an Iraqi defector suspected of being mentally unstable and a liar. The CIA officer took his pen, he recounted in an interview, and crossed out the whole paragraph.
A few days later, the lines were back in the speech. Powell stood before the U.N. Security Council on Feb. 5 and said: "We have first-hand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails."
This seems to be a recurring theme for this administration. It just doesn't seem to hear objections until it's too late. It has an uncanny ability to not hear information that discredits its beliefs. The intelligence used to back the mobile biological labs claims came from Curveball, an Iraqi informant housed in Germany, with German intelligence acting as a middle man for the United States. There were widespread doubts about Curveball's credibility, and he has been discredited as a fabricator, but again, the administration conveniently managed to not find out about that until after the invasion had occurred.
On May 29, 2003, President Bush declared that US and Kurdish forces had discovered the mobile biological labs. For the next year and a half, administration officials continued to cite the discovery of these labs as proof of Saddam's WMDs and justification for the invasion. But, alas, in September 2004, the Iraq Survey Group investigated and concluded that labs were used to generate hydrogen to be used in weather balloons.
Yet, on May 27, 2003, two days before President Bush's announcement, a team of technical experts which had been sent by the Pentagon to investigate the labs after two military teams of weapons experts identified the labs as mobile weapons units (based off of the descriptions of Curveball), had issued a report which concluded unequivocally that the labs could not be used to produce biological weapons. The team made this conclusion within four hours of investigating.
When the team came back to the US, they were asked to revise their (correct) conclusion to "soften" it to allow for the possibility that the trailers could be used for producing biological weapons. The team refused and stood by their conclusion, at which point the report was classified and shelved. Amazingly, once again the administration managed not to hear information that conflicted with claims it used to justify the invasion of Iraq.
This is but one example. Take the time to look through the intelligence claims used to justify the war and what emerges is a systematic intent to not consider information that might say something the administration did not want to hear.
But this is part of an even larger pattern of not being able to confront reality which conflicts with its political ideology. This is why it might be the most anti-scientific administration is US history, since science is the best method that humanity has to investigate and determine objective truth. But wishful thinking does not change inconvenient truths, and eventually reality must be confronted. A point summed poignantly in this eSkeptic from Oct. 10, 2004
The troubles in Iraq are not so much proof of the failure of the neocon vision for democratizing the Middle East, as they are a reminder of the disastrous consequences of removing empiricism from deliberation. All the problems that have popped up in Iraq were predicted long ago—from troop strength to the resilience of the insurgents—and available to anyone who cared to look. The administration not only chose to look away but actively swept them under the rug. When CIA war games were discovered to be training personnel to deal with the eventuality of civil disorder after the fall of Baghdad, The Atlantic Monthly reported the Pentagon forbad representatives from the Defense Department from participating because “detailed thought about the postwar situation meant facing costs and potential problems.” Our refusal to face reality hasn’t been giving democracy much of a chance.
“Being steadfast in defense of carefully considered convictions is a virtue,” George Will wrote recently. “Being blankly incapable of distinguishing cherished hopes from disappointing facts, or of reassessing comforting doctrines in face of contrary evidence, is a crippling political vice.” Bush has finally met his match. The Universe is the one foe more steadfast than he is. It cannot be bullied or intimidated. The laws of physics know no compromise. This is a game of chicken Bush will lose. If he doesn’t take his foot off the accelerator, then the only question is: how will we recover from the crash?
Although I agree that the administration is tone deaf to legitimate intelligence reports, I do think that mobile weapons lab story is more complicated than the WaPo story indicates.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it took three teams of experts to come to a decision is telling in itself, with the most expert team taking four hours to reach a conclusion that excluded WMD production. Although the Duelfer Report supports that conclusion, it also details how the trailers could be used for small quantites of biological weapons, albeit with a low probability of purity, and large risk to the operators. In other words, they were clearly not designed for such use, but could have been utilized as a last ditch measure.
Shooter,
ReplyDeleteYou'll find that "Democrats did or said X" is an argument that I don't find compelling, considering I'm not a Democrat.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteNevermind the fact that quoting those Democrats fails to address any point of the post.
ReplyDeleteBwahaha, shooter and his "Democrats do it too" refrain. Hmm, somehow that doesn't matter to me since I'm not a Democrat.
ReplyDeletePoor shooter thought he was making a point.
Describing the current adminstration as unscientic is the wrong way to go. It's not that they are uninterested in the truth. It's that they think they have the right to lie and deceive to achieve their aims.
ReplyDeleteTheir problem is a lack of integrity. But that's a value judgment that science can't address.
RE: Shooter. In "defense" of the Dems, (disclaimer: I'm not one either) in all likelihood they were only given access to intelligence supporting the "we know Saddam..." conclusions.
ReplyDeleteThe Psychotic Patriot says that Bush's Iraq is a pile of shit, and Rove's asking Republcans to keep eating it, and smiling. Sadlly, it may work.
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost said...
ReplyDelete"Nevermind the fact that quoting those Democrats fails to address any point of the post"
That is the point! They have no way to justify their support for Bush - so they have to resort to diversionary tactics. This is how they deal with reality based discussions.
From anonymous at 8:09PM:
ReplyDelete"This is how they deal with reality based discussions."
Wait, don't they create their own 'reality'? Kinda hard to hold a conversation with someone occupying a completely different space-time continuum, or with shooter242 for that matter.
We knew at the time that they were weather balloons. Here's one story:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3879.htm
Brian Boru
Leonard Cohen. Good stuff. The Washington Squares covered it well also.
ReplyDeleteAmazing that none of the analysts allegedly "pressured" by the WH to "sex up" their work could be found with evidence when the Senate looked at this allegation.
ReplyDeleteSee pages 272-284 on the REPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/
congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_toc.htm
Here is the unanimous finding of all the members of both parties of the Senate Intelligence Committee:
(U) The Committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with Administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so. When asked whether analysts were pressured in any way to alter their assessments or make their judgments conform with Administration policies on Iraq's WMD programs, not a single analyst answered "yes." Most analysts simply answered, "no" or "never," but some provided more extensive responses.
The question is why did these anonymous agents did not come forward at the time or perhaps did come forward at the time to tell the committee that they were not pressured?
Could it be that their claims of being
"pressured" would be subject to cross examination by the committee members demanding actual proof rather than being given an anonymous platform to spew unchecked allegations by credulous journalists who share the same partisan political objective???
These wouldn't be the same group of agents who are betraying their country by leaking classified intelligence gathering programs so they can be published to the enemy???
It might have something to do with people disagreeing having a way of losing their jobs, while people being absolutely irresponsibly wrong (in the right direction), like the two analysts who concluded the aluminum tubes were part of a nuclear program, getting a promotion even after their error has been established.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite "partisan" critic of the administration's war in Iraq is Paul O'Neal. Of course, the minute he got fired any criticism he made could be dismissed on the grounds that he's obviously bitter, and nothing he said could have any truth to it.
ReplyDeleteGlenn didn't write this.
ReplyDeleteBart @ 9:11,
ReplyDeleteAddressed, from what I hear, in The 1% Solution, which I have not read yet, but also quite well in the most recent Front Line, which I have seen.
Once again, ad nauseum, Bart and Shooter come down on the side of the Republicans and the White House.
ReplyDeleteGod what a couple of pathetic hacks and shills. I mean, honestly, can you imagine how serious you'd have to compromise your integrity to believe the repeated and endless lies that Bush et al have done?
My guess is that Bush and company could start burning liberals at the stake and Bart & Shooter would be fine as long as their tax cuts were not threatened.
They make me sick.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOnce again, ad nauseum, Bart and Shooter come down on the side of the Republicans and the White House.
As did every single Dem on the Senate Intelligence Committee.
They are all closet GOP, I suppose....
E-mail from Iraq. Gunny is a hard as nails Marine Gunnery Sargent and a Vietnam vet. He is a very conservative sort of fellow (to understate the case) and one of the few conservative friends I retain, partly because of his dedication to the truth and the courage it takes to admit when he was wrong. He is extremely intelligent and well read, for a jarhead. He is a true warrior. He is now over there rebuilding Iraq to try and correct the mistakes of this Administration, which he had supported, unlike these trolls, he puts his money where his mouth is and his ass on the line. I had told him to take my advice and didi mao back home because he's too old for this shit:
ReplyDeleteI'm here for the long haul my friend. We have farkled things up and we need to unfarkle them as best we can and let these people realize their own destiny. In order to do that, we need to get some infrastructure up and running or the government will implode and chaos will reign. Should the latter happen, that's when I bail out. My goals are to help in some small way to make former happen and get our boys home and I will stay true to that commitment. Unless the Big Man upstairs has a pressing need for me, I will be fine. I am in a heavily-defended compound, guarded by a battalion of Peshmerga and they are absolutely spoiling for a fight... I think you know me well enough by now to know that I will speak the unvarnished truth, even if it is counter to my beliefs. The truth is far more important,
whatever it may be. We love our country and we both recognize there are too many fuck ups by our leadership. Accountability is a must, even if for no other
reason than to learn from our mistakes, which always will happen; especially with situations like Iraq. The fuck ups here are monumental, and trust me, that
pains me to say so. It's the truth however, as I see it anyways. There are parallels to Vietnam that haunt me, but not for the reasons you might think.
This is probably the mindset of most sane Republicans and conservatives at this point. The remaining 20% are paid GOP operatives like this who hate liberals so much they would vote for Hitler and too cowardly to admit they were wrong.
Shooter... Actually, I chose those quotes specifically because the Dems were the majority party in the Senate when uttered.
ReplyDeleteThey will be dealt with too, if culpable, complicit and incompetent, and not just hoodwinked and acting in good faith. All in good time. Repugnicans first. :-)
See you at the polls.
According to ESkeptic as quoted by the Ghost...
ReplyDeleteAll the problems that have popped up in Iraq were predicted long ago—from troop strength to the resilience of the insurgents—and available to anyone who cared to look.
As soon as anyone can point out to a seer who predicted all of the results of the Iraqi intervention, good and bad, then I might get excited.
The conventional war won in three weeks.
Found a small fraction of the predicted WMD.
Found ongoing WMD programs.
Found approximately 1500 al Qaeda and other jihadis in pre War Iraq.
Saddam releasing all of his criminal prisoners creating a crime wave.
A multi year terrorist campaign waged by an alliance of Baathists and foreign al Qaeda.
Foreign al Qaeda perpetrating a bombing campaign slaughtering Shia Iraqi civilians in an attempt to start a civil war.
No civil war.
Disbandment of the Sunni dominated military and replacing it with a proportional military.
Three successful elections.
Final unity government with all three Iraqi groups represented.
Find me someone who predicted all that and you will have found the luckiest man alive.
Bart... As soon as anyone can point out to a seer who predicted all of the results of the Iraqi intervention, good and bad, then I might get excited.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Herbert Walker Bush, but he also raised taxes after he swore he wouldn't.
And the reason Bush I didn't roll on into Baghdad during GWI was because he listened to the wise counsel of many men, not the least of which was General William Odom.
ReplyDeleteAlso, General Zinni, who commanded central command, was very much opposed to the war in the first place, as I was. We were both quoted to that effect in February of 2003.
William Odom
Bart... Find me someone who predicted all that and you will have found the luckiest man alive.
ReplyDeleteI predicted that all that propaganda would be splooged all over the place by our government. Do I win a toaster?
So... plausible cluelessness?
ReplyDeletePlausible denial of reality?
Bart... determined to be wrong.
ReplyDeleteHey shooter,
ReplyDelete""We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002."
He said, "We know that he had stored......"
Get your facts straight, would you? I imagine you verified the rest of your "facts" in the same manner?
Bart... As soon as anyone can point out to a seer who predicted all of the results of the Iraqi intervention, good and bad, then I might get excited.
ReplyDeleteThere have been no good results, only bad and all of them were predicted. Foretold, even.
Sky-Ho said...
ReplyDeleteHey shooter,
""We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002."
He said, "We know that he had stored......"
Get your facts straight, would you? I imagine you verified the rest of your "facts" in the same manner?
So he altered the text of the man's statement. Good catch. Like Tony Snow and every single other one of these lying ratfuckers. Fabricating e-mails and worse. Sad, but this is the price of freedom. You have to put up with the shit.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAnd the reason Bush I didn't roll on into Baghdad during GWI was because he listened to the wise counsel of many men, not the least of which was General William Odom.
Wise?
I served as an infantry platoon leader in the Persian Gulf War. After the ground campaign, we were posted along the ceasefire line near a Shia town in southern Iraq.
Just north of us, Saddam sent his Republican Guard butchers in to massacre the Shia. We treated the survivors who could reach our lines. One was a pregnant woman who was gang raped and then the RG rapists thought it would be a hoot to give her an impromptu abortion with an AK 47 round in the womb.
When George I took that "wise" counsel to pull out and abandon these people, I remember the terrified faces of the town's people when we left. Some of them tried to run after our Bradleys to ride away with us.
The most ashamed I have ever been is when we abandoned those people to rape and mass graves.
Wise? The hell with that.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteThe quotes you list are from September 2002. At the end of November 2002, the UN inspectors returned to Iraq.
Whatever anyone thought they knew before the inspectors returned, it was obvious once inspections resumed that our information was faulty.
"In fact, the U.S. claim that Iraq is developing missiles that could hit its neighbors – or U.S. troops in the region, or even Israel – is just one of the claims coming from Washington that inspectors here are finding increasingly unbelievable. The inspectors have become so frustrated trying to chase down unspecific or ambiguous U.S. leads that they've begun to express that anger privately in no uncertain terms.
U.N. sources have told CBS News that American tips have lead to one dead end after another."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml
"Weapons inspectors have been conducting nearly four weeks of operations, having visited nearly 150 suspected sites.
But no problems have been reported and inspectors say they have received good co-operation."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2595659.stm
Both these articles are from December 2002.
We were well aware, before we went to war, that our intelligence was seriously flawed.
Bartbarian's litany of things "found" in post-invasion Iraq reveal that he is not part of the reality-based community, but only of the fantasy- and wish-fullfillment-based cadre of those who, in spite of failure after failure of "his" administration, still support Li'L Butch.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteObviously the 20-20 hindsight enjoyed by Ghost's reference was not universal, as demonstrated by the Democrats in charge previous to the Bush administration.
ReplyDeleteOk. Let's reason through this statement step by step. Here's what my reference said:
All the problems that have popped up in Iraq were predicted long ago—from troop strength to the resilience of the insurgents—and available to anyone who cared to look.The administration not only chose to look away but actively swept them under the rug. When CIA war games were discovered to be training personnel to deal with the eventuality of civil disorder after the fall of Baghdad, The Atlantic Monthly reported the Pentagon forbad representatives from the Defense Department from participating because “detailed thought about the postwar situation meant facing costs and potential problems.”
Specific problems predicted that the administration ignored and failed to be ready for, according to the quoted text, are:
1. Troop strength
2. Resilience of the insurgency
The author lists as an auxilliary example of the administration's systematic efforts to not prepare for reality the order to not allow the Defense Dept to participate in CIA war games because "detailed thought about the postwar situation meant facing costs and potential problems"
There it is, staring you in bold text. The stated intent not to consider reality, for political reasons.
Ok, so the author is one, citing individuals who before the war warned of problems to come (before the war means it was not hindsight, it was forsight) and two, using the Pentagon's own words to demonstrate that ignoring such considerations was deliberate.
So how can statements from Democrats that they believed Saddam had wmd's possibly serve to refute the above? It can't, and it doesn't. How does Al Gore stating that Saddam desired stored bio/chemical weapons and wanted WMDs address what is above have anything to do with the administration ignoring the people that told them to use more troops and to prepare for an insurgency? It doesn't. Its just gibberish, noise. It has nothing to do with the points cited.
But this can be explained away, too. And so one provides another example from another source. Let's say, George Packer, who revealed in The Assassin's Gate that the administration purposefully did not plan for post-invasion Iraq because AEI wouldn't have endorsed the war otherwise
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most morally shocking revelation in "The Assassins' Gate" is that the real reason the Bush administration did not plan for the aftermath of the war was that such planning might have prevented the war from taking place. One example of this was the administration's rejection of an offer of help from a coalition of heavyweight bipartisan policy groups. Leslie Gelb, president of the bipartisan Council on Foreign Relations, had offered to assist the administration in its postwar planning: He proposed that his group and two other respected think tanks, the Heritage Foundation and the Center for Strategic and International Studies, prepare a study. "'This is just what we need," Rice said. 'We'll be too busy to do it ourselves.' But she didn't want the involvement of Heritage, which had been critical of the idea of an Iraq war. 'Do AEI instead.'"
Representatives of the think tanks duly met with National Security Council head Condoleezza Rice and her deputy Stephen Hadley. "John Hamre of CSIS went in expecting to pitch the idea to Rice, but the meeting was odd from the start: Rice seemed attentive only to [AEI president Chris] DeMuth, and it was as if the White House was trying to sell something to the American Enterprise Institute rather than the other way around. When Gelb, on speakerphone from New York, began to describe his concept, DeMuth cut him off. 'Wait a minute. What's all this planning and thinking about postwar Iraq?' He turned to Rice. 'This is nation building, and you said you were against that. In the campaign you said it, the president has said it. Does he know you're doing this? Does Karl Rove know?' "
Without AEI, Rice couldn't sign on. Two weeks later, Hadley called Gelb to tell him what Gelb already knew: 'We're not going to go ahead with it.' Gelb later explained, 'They thought all those things would get in the way of going to war.'"
In effect, the far-right AEI was running the White House's Iraq policy -- and the AEI's war-at-all-costs imperatives drove the Pentagon, too. "'The senior leadership of the Pentagon was very worried about the realities of the postconflict phase being known,' a Defense official said, 'because if you are Feith or you are Wolfowitz, your primary concern is to achieve the war.'"
But this can be explained away, too. Perhaps by quoting some Democrat who thought in '98 that limited bombing of Iraq was justified for failure to comply with inspectors or some such reason, buttressed by the assertion that everyone has 20-20 hindsight.
I don't call it a war, it is an invasion and occupation.
ReplyDeleteThe Iraqi military leadership was bought off, and such troops as there were were either obliterated in the Shock and Awe campaign, or they melted away with almost no fight against the invaders at all.
In some instances, too, Iraqi troops trying to surrender were exterminated on the spot.
In other words, there was no "war" as such. Without troops actually fighting one another, how could there be?
There was a successful invasion, which resulted in the toppling of a statue and the regime that statue represented.
There was and is an absolutely horrific occuptation. Nothing quite like it since... when, actually? In fact, it appears the Iraqis of all stripes were prepared to give the occupation a chance, and who knows would be supporting it now, if it weren't for the fact that the ideologs and imbeciles who took charge of it did everything in their power -- which was considerable -- to make matters as awful for the Iraqis as they possibly could, without simply rounding them up and slaughtering them.
Did you know there were schools in Iraq before the invasion? Hospitals too. Strange, isn't it? Did you know the cities had electricity and funcioning water and sewage plants? How bizarre. Did you know they had more of these things, more widely distributed, than in many cases they do now? How very strange.
Even the Ba'athists seemed prepared to give the occupation a chance, and since the Sunni Arabs were the more highly educated and secular class in Iraq, they rather naturally thought they would at least be called on to assist with the occupation. How wrong they were.
How very wrong indeed.
Remember the general who was murdered under "harsh interrogation" at Abu Ghraib? Probably not. There were other Iraqi generals subjected to "harsh interrogation" elsewhere who just happened to die under the treatment, too. And the question is, were these generals some of the ones who were paid off not to fight the invasion?
When you say "determined to be wrong," I don't think it goes far enough. These were people who were determined to force their error on others -- to the point of death, dismemberment and destruction -- because they could, and no one could stop them, no one dared.
And still today, while some shreds of conscience catch up with some of them, they are still bound by their desire for doom and mayhem.
They are certainly learning as they go.
Or as John Lennon would have said: Ebry dobby knows.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say "determined to be wrong," I don't think it goes far enough. These were people who were determined to force their error on others -- to the point of death, dismemberment and destruction -- because they could, and no one could stop them, no one dared.
ReplyDeleteAnd still today, while some shreds of conscience catch up with some of them, they are still bound by their desire for doom and mayhem.
Things like this just keep reminding me of this article saying that these guys are really Satanists -- they've made a pact with the devil. It has a link in it to another article using Bible quotes to show the same thing. Have a look:
http://lightningbug.blogspot.com/2004_12_26_lightningbug_archive.html
This seems to be a recurring theme for this administration. It just doesn't seem to hear objections until it's too late. It has an uncanny ability to not hear information that discredits its beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI was going to find a quote in Don't Think of an Elephant about this, but the book was just borrowed by my 15 year-old step son and it's gone. Anyway, Lakoff, in this book, says that we do not see facts that refute our preconceived notions. And I just read another book that starts by saying that we don't learn anything that doesn't have an emotional content.
I think it's a human tendency to not want to see things that contradict what we want to think -- but they have taken it to a high art.
Hume's Ghost
ReplyDeleteYour reference to a "...recurring theme for this administration ..... [that it] doesn't seem to hear objections until it's too late [and its].....uncanny ability to not hear information that discredits its beliefs" reflects the obseervation in the Downing Street memo that the facts are being being fixed around policy.
The fact is that the neocons didn't really care about winning in Iraq. They were more interested in imposing a less truculent regime than Saddam that could operate outside the Saudi controlled OPEC. It is interesting that the Arab perspective is that the US has already achieved its aims - that is to thwart Arab unity by generating sectarian divisions as this piece in Al Jazeera indicates:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7DFA2889-95A5-4B0A-A767-14E1A93C2539.htm
Bremer's hidden brief was not to restore order but to render control and sale of oil to multinationals. The unseemly pressure on the contituent assembly to devise a constition was to confirm contracts with a legitimate government. These contracts had been drawn up before Bremer's time in Iraq ended and they grant extremely generous production share agreements (PSAs) that renmoves oil as a national Iraqi asset. Saddam had previously and many OPEC members today, including Kuwait, do not accept PSAs to share sovereignty of what they consider to be their national wealth.
Lakoff's point is that we use cognitive frames to understand the world around us. People find the frames useful, and if facts don't fit the frame they will reject the facts. In order to get the person to accept the facts you need to get them to see the facts in a different frame, a frame in which the facts fit (or fit better.)
ReplyDeleteThis is sort of how science works. For example, before Darwin, biology was framed around a belief that life was created spontaneously. This made facts like vestigial organs difficult to understand. Then after Darwin this made sense - they fit the frame.
All you need to know: anyone who criticizes Bush is either a liberal, a traitor, or is out to make a buck by selling a book. Anything that someone like that says can automatically be dismissed (after they are appropriately vilified and smeared). Don't worry. The base doesn't know what ad hominem means. And if someone brings up that term, just say you don't know 'French' since you didn't go to Yale. The irony will be lost on them.
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost
ReplyDeleteYour reference to a "...recurring theme for this administration ..... [that it] doesn't seem to hear objections until it's too late [and its].....uncanny ability to not hear information that discredits its beliefs" reflects the obseervation in the Downing Street memo that the facts are being being fixed around policy.
The fact is that the neocons didn't really care about winning in Iraq. They were more interested in imposing a less truculent regime than Saddam that could operate outside the Saudi controlled OPEC. It is interesting that the Arab perspective is that the US has already achieved its aims - that is to thwart Arab unity by generating sectarian divisions as this piece in Al Jazeera indicates:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7DFA2889-95A5-4B0A-A767-14E1A93C2539.htm
Bremer's hidden brief was not to restore order but to render control and sale of oil to multinationals. The unseemly pressure on the contituent assembly to devise a constition was to confirm contracts with a legitimate government. These contracts had been drawn up before Bremer's time in Iraq ended and they grant extremely generous production share agreements (PSAs) that renmoves oil as a national Iraqi asset. Saddam had previously and many OPEC members today, including Kuwait, do not accept PSAs to share sovereignty of what they consider to be their national wealth.
Hume,
ReplyDeletethe day after a washington post story on bio labs by Joby Warrick, which did not, (after doing so repeatedly in the past and being wrong therein) give the benefit of the doubt to the administration, I wrote this piece regarding one of Scott McClellan's last press conferences before resigning. during it, he ignored almost the entire point of the article, and lashed out at the Post, almost viciously, for what amounted to ( a slightly unfair title aside) unusally good coverage for a newspaper that has often applied vastly sugarcoated standards to the current administration in order to not appear unduly harsh.
the piece traces the history of the bio weapons labs, and that same pattern to which you refer, and the Post's point therein (in essence) that "after numerous replications of this same pattern," why once again were critical documents that contradicted the expressly made claims, simply ignored for months on end, and the facts represented as if they did not even exist?
as for powerline's absurd claim, some people understand the basic priciples of democracy, others - who love to scream about freedom and democracy and the constitution, have no inkling as to why the underlying principles are there in the first place, what they mean, or why they are important, if not essential.
the people belonging in this latter category are in the minority, but they tend to have a disproportionate impact upon the national debate (in much the same way fringe extremist anne coulter and the less vile sean hannity do).
Powerline is reasonably popular because the seemingly pro big government power bloggers(yet who beleive they are true blue patriotic americans who love freedom and democracy even while in practice assailing its basic principles in an oftentimes outrageous fashion) write coherently and often pesuasively, never mind that when it comes to partisan matters their reasoning is often tautological or somewhat manipulative, even if unintentionally.
with respect to their veiled threats, it is only yet another mark of how poorly democrats (whether you are a democrat or not, they are the other main party in america, and if the balance is not effectively provided by them, as it has not been the past five years, then there is no balance) have made the case as to what is really going on.
that powerline can not only be so blatantly, flagrantly, wrong on such an essential requirement of democracy, but can implicitly threaten what appears almost to be an incitement to violence against reporters for not only doing their job, but a job that serves as the fourth estate of government and the last means by which a populace can even potentially know about abuses of power by a government ( a government that is only supposed to derive any power from the informed and express consent of the governed), indicates that they simply do not understand what democracy is, or means.
if enough people understand this, then democracy works. if not enough do, then it won't. in essence their view is that a government can do no wrong. (presuming, i assume, they voted for it in the first place). kings and dictactors are afforded that power. in democracies, leaders are not.
Under our constitution, which has provided the framework for what has been the greatest experiment in representative democracy that the world has ever seen, our leaders are expressly and specificaly not. yet by disagreeing with them, these far right wing extremist but yet far too influential bloggers would twist that around completely. that they would then on top of that so disparage reporters, let alone issue such un-american threats of veiled violence against them for doing something which helps to protect the pillars of democracy, indicates just how off the national discussion on this matter is.
ironically, a reading of these issues by the same general mainstream media, perhaps helps to indicate in part why that is so; as the media has otherwise done such a poor job of assessing and reporting on facts which are available, just not well covered, that the American public hasnt really been given the information necessary to understand the issues. thus, illogical and "belief over fact" driven rhetoric continues to skew and shift the parameters of the debate heavily to the right.
it appears that steven hatfill was making a secret mobile weapons lab in the US based on the specs provided by curveball. were they hoping to plant it in iraq?
ReplyDeleteIvan Carter brought to mind President Kennedy's words:
ReplyDelete"men who create power make an indispensable contribution to the nation's greatness - but men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable - for they determine whether we use power, or power uses us."
If only shooters and barts could appreciate such sentiments rather than partisan illogic as being the essence of democracies.
You'll find that "Democrats did or said X" is an argument that I don't find compelling, considering I'm not a Democrat.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of what one is, no argument was presented. At most we have some Democrats believing the cooked intelligence fed to them by the Cheney/Rumsfeld "alternate" intelligence apparatus, as described by FrontLine's recent "The Dark Side". Only an thoroughly intellectually dishonest screwball like shooter would draw from those quotes the inferences that he does.
I have transcripts of the original speech here and here.
ReplyDeleteAs long as we have the transcripts before us, we might as well examine the context of the quote:
Moreover, if we quickly succeed in a war against the weakened and depleted fourth rate military of Iraq and then quickly abandon that nation as President Bush has abandoned Afghanistan after quickly defeating a fifth rate military there, the resulting chaos could easily pose a far greater danger to the United States than we presently face from Saddam. We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.
We have no evidence, however, that he has shared any of those weapons with terrorist group. However, if Iraq came to resemble Afghanistan - - with no central authority but instead local and regional warlords with porous borders and infiltrating members of Al Qaeda than these widely dispersed supplies of weapons of mass destruction might well come into the hands of terrorist groups.
If we end the war in Iraq, the way we ended the war in Afghanistan, we could easily be worse off than we are today. When Secretary Rumsfield was asked recently about what our responsibility for restabilizing Iraq would be in an aftermath of an invasion, he said, "that's for the Iraqis to come together and decide."
While Gore was mistaken as to what we knew, we do now know that large caches of powerful "conventional" weapons were left unattended and became the source of numerous IED's that killed many Americans and Iraqis.
Meanwhile, the Iraqis have decided that the U.S. should withdraw and that insurgents should be given amnesty, but I don't hear Rumsfeld honoring their decision.
Take any quote from any dishonest slimeball like shooter and expand it by a couple of paragraphs and you're more than likely to encounter similar revelatory material.
Once again, the question arises: WHY did they do it?
ReplyDeleteI recall seeing a short video sequence on TV a few years back. It was of a young Arab man, dressed in Western clothing and wearing what loked like $500 sunglasses, yelling at the camera that the Americans were taking too long to rescue them from the perceived threat of the day.
I continue to believe that Bushco were bribed, flattered and cajoled into this war by people who didn't care for their Iraqi neighbors.
From paul rosenberg at 10:42am:
ReplyDelete"The deeper point, however, is that these guys are so sociopathic, so detached from reality that it's no more significant to them than losing a video game."
I don't think they're sociopaths; that would imply that they've actually experienced combat or similar stresses, yet retain a moral/intellectual framework utterly detatched from those experiences.
Rather, I think they've simply been so successful at *avoiding* either those experiences or having to confront the consequences of the same that (witness the lengths Bush went to avoid even speaking with Cindy Sheehan, and the blanket ban on photographs of the returning coffins) that their 'detatchment' remains intact.
While I doubt either Cheney or Rumsfield would be overly bothered (their shells having had longer to harden to the point of lacking any empathy with the rest of us), I suspect President Bush himself would suffer a far more severe reaction and possible a bit of cognative dissonance were he to actually speak with those who have lost family in combat or are returning from Iraq.
Small wonder then that they'll go to these lengths to avoid admitting any mistakes or examining their actions.
Suspend your kill the messenger attitude for a few minutes and read this Newsmax article on what the investigation showed happened in Haditha in its entirety. Unlike most of their abbreviated hit and run pieces, this Newsmax article is very detailed. I suspect that either the defense team or someone sympathetic to the marines leaked a comprehensive take on the events to the press. It will be interesting to see what the final report says.
ReplyDeleteNew Evidence Emerges in Haditha Case
Phil Brennan, NewsMax
Monday, June 26, 2006
New evidence continues to emerge that U.S. Marines did not wantonly kill Iraqi civilians in Haditha last November - and the soldiers' accounts of what happened are backed up by videotape shot by an ultralight vehicle, NewsMax has learned.
According to media reports, last Nov. 19 members of a Marine Corps company killed some 24 innocent civilian Iraqis in Haditha, a town140 miles northwest of Baghdad and near the Syrian border.
In the ensuing media firestorm that broke out after the story was revealed, many news reports here and abroad compared the Haditha deaths to the infamous My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War.
Michael Sallah, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his May Lai reporting, has said: "You would have difficulties finding a single newspaper in Germany or elsewhere in Europe which does not deal with My Lai."
But the facts and accounts from Marines and others on the ground tell another story.
What is not in dispute is that the Marine's engagement in Haditha began when an IED (improvised explosive device) detonated, killing a Marine from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division.
In the aftermath of the action two investigations were launched, one by Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell, who was charged with investigating how the incident was reported through the chain of command. A second investigation, headed by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS), is looking into any possible criminal aspects of the incident.
The Bargewell report has not been released and is still being reviewed by Army Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, a top U.S. commander in Iraq. But military officials told the Los Angeles Times that although it concludes there was no deliberate cover-up by senior Marine officers, the Corps failed to follow up and ask questions that the known details should have provoked them to ask.
The NCIS investigation is still ongoing.
Last May, when Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., appeared on "Good Morning America," he accused the Marines of K Company of killing innocent civilians in "cold blood" and that the killings were covered up by higher officers.
The Bargewell report has disproved that allegation and with the NCIS investigation so far incomplete, and no soldier has been charged with a crime, how would Murtha know?
Intelligence sources tell NewsMax the facts of the Haditha incident paint an entirely different picture from the one Murtha and others are propagating.
Military sources familiar with the incident have told NewsMax:
Within minutes of the early morning IED explosion, a firefight erupted between insurgents and Marines. Civilians were caught in the middle of a firefight. Also, although civilians did die, their deaths were the result of door-to-door combat as the Marines sought to clear houses and stop the insurgent gunfire.
Ample evidence proves a firefight took place. For example, every second of the ensuing firefight was monitored by numerous people at company, battalion and regimental HQs via radio communications.
Video evidence supports the Marines' claims. Within a very few minutes, battalion, regimental and division headquarters were able to watch the action thanks to an overhead ultralight aircraft that remained aloft all day. Photos of some of the actions were downloaded and in the hands of Marines and the NCIS.
Some of the insurgents involved in planning the attack and firing at Marines during a daylong engagement have been apprehended and are in custody.
Much of the story claiming what really happened in the aftermath of the IED explosion was reported by the Washington Post on June 11. NewsMax can now reveal the rest of the story of what really happened at Haditha.
In order to fully understand what happened last Nov. 19, it is important to know what kind of city Haditha is.
"We require more manpower to cover this area the way we need to," one military official told the Los Angeles Times. One Knight Ridder reporter called Haditha, a town of about 100,000 people, "an insurgent bastion," reporting that "insurgents blend in with the residents, setting up cells in their homes next to those belonging to everyday citizens, some of them supportive."
Knight Ridder said that around the time of an August attack when a total of 20 U.S. Marines were killed in two days, "several storefronts were lined with posters and pictures supporting al-Qaida. ... "There is no functioning police station and the government offices are largely vacant. The last man to call himself mayor relinquished the title earlier this year after scores of death threats from insurgents."
According to an August 2005 story in Britain's Guardian newspaper, Haditha, under the nose of an American base, "is a miniature Taliban-like state. Insurgents decide who lives and dies, which salaries get paid, what people wear, what they watch and listen to."
When the Marines first went into the city they were aware of the tight control insurgents exercised over Haditha. They discovered that the insurgents had freshly paved-over dirt roads leading into town under the auspices of civic works projects.
They were, according to a NewsMax source, "beautiful asphalt surfaced roads" adorned that even included painted lines. The only problem, the source recalled, was that insurgents had laid more than 100 mega-IEDs under that asphalt. And, in order to avoid having to change batteries in the triggering devices, they wired them into the city power lines lining the road.
It is important to remember that the so-called details of the alleged massacre came from Iraqis and residents of Haditha, a city run by insurgents who have those residents not allied with them under their bloody thumbs.
In the Post story, an attorney for Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, said that his client told him that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. He insisted there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.
"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident, told the Post. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."
According to the Post, Wuterich told his attorney in initial interviews over nearly 12 hours that the shootings were the unfortunate result of a methodical sweep for enemies in a firefight. Two attorneys for other Marines involved in the incident said Wuterich's account is consistent with those they had heard from their clients.
Wrote the Post: "On Nov. 19, Wuterich's squad left its headquarters at Firm Base Sparta in Haditha at 7 a.m. on a daily mission to drop off Iraqi army troops at a nearby checkpoint. "It was like any other day, we just had to watch out for and any other activity that looked suspicious," said Marine Cpl. James Crossan, 21, in an interview from his home in North Bend, Wash. He was riding in the four-Humvee convoy as it turned left onto Chestnut Road, heading west at 7:15 a.m.
"Shortly after the turn, a bomb buried in the road ripped through the last Humvee. The blast instantly killed the driver, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20. Wuterich, who was driving the third Humvee in the line, immediately stopped the convoy and got out, Puckett told the Post, adding that while Wuterich was evaluating the scene, Marines noticed a white, unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.
"The first thing he thought was it could be a vehicle-borne bomb or these guys could be ready to do a drive-by shooting," Puckett said, explaining that the Marines were on alert for such coordinated, multistage attacks.
According to Puckett, as Wuterich began briefing the platoon leader, AK-47 shots rang out from residences on the south side of the road, and the Marines ducked.
A corporal with the unit leaned over to Wuterich and said he saw the shots coming from a specific house. After a discussion with the platoon leader, they decided to clear the house, according to Wuterich's account.
"There's a threat, and they went to eliminate the threat," Puckett said.
A four-man team of Marines, including Wuterich, kicked in the door and found a series of empty rooms, noticing quickly that there was one room with a closed door and people rustling behind it, Puckett said. They then kicked in that door, tossed a fragmentation grenade into the room, and one Marine fired a series of "clearing rounds" through the dust and smoke, killing several people, Puckett said.
The Marine who fired the rounds - Puckett said it was not Wuterich - had experience clearing numerous houses on a deployment in Fallujah, where Marines had aggressive rules of engagement.
Although it was almost immediately apparent to the Marines that the people dead in the room were men, women and children - most likely civilians -- they also noticed a back door ajar and believed that insurgents had slipped through to a house nearby, Puckett said. The Marines stealthily moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using a fragmentation grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people, he said.
Wuterich, not having found the insurgents, told the team to stop and headed back to the platoon leader to reassess the situation, Puckett said, adding that his client knew a number of civilians had just been killed.
As already stated, the Haditha massacre story reported by Time magazine was based entirely on accounts from Iraqis with an axe to grind. The facts of what happened tell a different story. The real story, it will eventually be revealed, is backed up by evidence Time didn't know existed. It gives the lie to the idea that there was anything like a massacre in Haditha on Nov. 19. Here, for the first time is the truth about what happened.
NewsMax can verify Wuterich's account. The site of the IED explosion was in an area well-known as an insurgent stronghold where as many as 50 IEDs were found previously, and from where, on two previous occasions, insurgents launched small-arms fire, rocket-propelled grenades and mortar attacks on K Company.
Within five minutes of the blast, Marines on the scene reported they were receiving small-arms fire. Within 30 minutes of the blast, and while the house-clearing was still underway, an Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) team en route to the site, came under small-arms fire in a known insurgent tactic to ambush first responders.
At the same time, just 30 minutes after the house clearing, an intelligence unit arrived to question the Marines involved in the house clearing operation. NewsMax sources say the behavior of the Marines involved gave them no reason to believe anything but what they had been told.
At about the same time a UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) arrived over the blast area and from that moment on, for the entire day , the UAV transmitted views of the engagement to the company command site, battalion headquarters, the regimental HQ, and the division HQ. What the UAV captured was a view of Marines in their perimeter, as they went about doing house-clearing. It was then vectored to the surrounding area to catch any fleeing insurgents. It showed four insurgents fleeing the neighborhood, loading weapons into their car, and linking up with their partners (the ones that had conducted the ambush on the EOD team).
Knowing what we now know about Wuterich's account, these fleeing insurgents were most likely the same ones that left through the back door of the house he was clearing.
There are photos of this, and they show the insurgents getting back in their car after loading the weapons The UAV then followed them south to their safe house. From that point forward, until about 6 p.m., the safe house was hit by bombs, and an assault by a K Company squad. The UAV followed the insurgents who had been inside through town.
The final tally for these engagements was two insurgents killed by direct fire, one killed by GBU bombs and one detained. The entire action was followed by the UAV overhead.
Keep in mind, the entire action was followed by keeping the UAV overhead all day.
The Haditha "massacre" being referred to is the 30 minutes to one hour that took place first thing in the morning. The rest of the day's activities, in fact, confirmed the nature of the morning's attack.
It is clear that the entire incident was planned and carried out by insurgents who detonated the IED, and then, in a familiar tactic, attacked the Marines responding to the blast - deliberately putting civilians at risk.
This is what happened in Haditha that day. It was a daylong engagement with armed insurgents that involved civilian casualties who died as a result of being caught in the middle of a firefight. It had been reported as a blast followed by a TIC - Marine Corps terminology for "Troops in Contact." In other words, gunfire directed at the Marines.
As the battalion went about compiling information on the insurgent's identities and determining who had been involved in the attack, its actions in the ensuing weeks resulted in the detention of several insurgents who masterminded the attack, and who remain incarcerated in Abu Ghraib prison today.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/
articles/2006/6/25/173358.shtml?s=lh
paul said: "The deeper point, however, is that these guys are so sociopathic, so detached from reality that it's no more significant to them than losing a video game."
ReplyDeleteYankee replied: I don't think they're sociopaths; that would imply that they've actually experienced combat or similar stresses, yet retain a moral/intellectual framework utterly detatched from those experiences.
I disagree with both characterizations here. These men are not sociopathic per se, nor are they inherently irrational. They follow certain routines and rationales that can be understood in rational terms.
The attempt to marginalize them strikes me as similar to those who try to marginalize Hitler by saying he was insane. This attempt at dehumanization obviates rationally understanding their motives while it adds an elemnt of mystification that obscures the true nature of their designs for taking power.
I think it behooves the Left of whatever moderate or extreme degree to refrain from such obscurantist terminology. While we engage in deciding whether these men are "sociopaths" or not, they continue to plan and execute--using the mythology as smoke-screen.
There's an ethical concern here as well. "Sociopathic" is a psychology term that attempts to put people beyond normal human boundaries. Even a cursory understanding of the term sociopath would show that Rumsfeld and Cheney do not fit those criteria.
I suggest that a more appropriate psychological analysis of them would follow Stephen Soldz's (a psychoanalyst, psychologist, public health researcher, and faculty member at the Institute for the Study of Violence of the Boston Graduate School of Psychoanalysis) use of narcissism to analyze Bush.
This analysis, at least, does not demonize the men since we are all narcissists of varying degrees. The virtue of Soldz's analysis is that it begins to show to what toxic degree Bush et al. play out their narcissistic fantasies.
Bart said "Suspend your kill the messenger attitude for a few minutes"
ReplyDeleteWhy should the left be exempt from tactics of the right? This is called a double standard.
Case in point-all the conservative chest thumping and whining whenever reports surface on the erosion of our civil liberties and rights pseudo justified by the GWOT.
Ah yes, shameless hypocrisy-the trademark of the wingnuts.
To follow up on my previous comments about the mischaracterization of Cheney and Rumsfeld as sociopaths, I think the following words of Martha Nussbaum make sense in the context of a liberal democracy.
ReplyDeleteNussbaum's concern is with using the emotions of disgust and shame in legal decisions. She's shown in her book on that subject that the Right believes that disgust is a more honest and authentic emotion than reason. In this way, conservative communitarians hope to muster political support by appealing to these emotions. But, as Nussbaum argues convincingly I believe, these emotions are inherently falwed because they are prone to blanket misuse in stimatizing groups of individuals.
Nussbaum writes; also see here:
In general, a society based on the idea of equal human dignity must find ways to inhibit stigma and the aggression that are so often linked to the proclamation that "we" are the ones who are "normal." Such a society is difficult to achieve, because incompleteness is frightening, and grandiose fictions are comforting. As a patient of the psychoanalyst Donald W. Winnicott said to him, "The alarming thing about equality is that we are then both children, and the question is, where is father? We know where we are if one of us is the father."
It may even be that a society in which people acknowledge their equal weakness and interdependence is unachievable because human beings cannot bear to live with the constant awareness of mortality and of their frail animal bodies. Some self-deception may be essential in getting us through a life in which we are soon bound for death, and in which the most essential matters are in fact beyond our control. But if we cannot fully achieve such a society, we can at least look to it as a paradigm (as Plato said of his ideal city), and make sure that our laws are the laws of that community and no other.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteAnon says:
We were well aware, before we went to war, that our intelligence was seriously flawed.
OTOH it is the nature of intelligence to be incomplete and often misleading. In addition the UN inspectors you rely on for Saddam's absolution are the same ones that missed secret nuclear programs by Iran and North Korea. My confidence factor is not high.
This was more than than an issue of just being incomplete and misleading. What was presented to the American people was not presented as being incomplete nor was there any acknowledgement that any of it was misleading.
Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
- Dick Cheney, speech to VFW National Convention, Aug. 26, 2002
Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
- George W. Bush, speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 12, 2002
No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
- Donald Rumsfeld, testimony to Congress, Sept. 19, 2002
The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq.
- George W. Bush, Nov. 23, 2002
If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Dec. 2, 2002
We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003
What we know from UN inspectors over the course of the last decade is that Saddam Hussein possesses thousands of chemical warheads, that he possesses hundreds of liters of very dangerous toxins that can kill millions of people.
- White House spokesman Dan Bartlett, CNN interview, Jan. 26, 2003
We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more.
- Colin Powell, remarks to UN Security Council, Feb. 5, 2003
We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons - the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.
- George W. Bush, radio address, Feb. 8, 2003
We believe [Hussein] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.
- Dick Cheney, NBC's Meet the Press, March 16, 2003
Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
- George W. Bush, address to the U.S., March 17, 2003
The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder.
- George W. Bush, address to U.S., March 19, 2003
Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly…..All this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleisher, press briefing, March 21, 2003
There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And….as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them.
- Gen. Tommy Franks, press conference, March 22, 2003
One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites.
- Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clark, press briefing, March 22, 2003
We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat.
- Donald Rumsfeld, ABC interview, March 30, 2003
But make no mistake - as I said earlier - we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, April 10, 2003
We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them.
- George W. Bush, NBC interview, April 24, 2003
There are people who in large measure have information that we need….so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country.
- Donald Rumsfeld, press briefing, April 25, 2003
I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now.
- Colin Powell, remarks to reporters, May 4, 2003
I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein – because he had a weapons program.
- George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 6, 2003
Before the war, there's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found.
- Gen. Michael Hagee, Commandant of the Marine Corps, interview with reporters, May 21, 2003
Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction.
- Gen. Richard Myers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, NBC Today Show interview, May 26, 2003
You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two [the labs were later judged to not contain any such weapons, that they most likely were used for weather balloons]. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them.
- George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 31, 2003
Now, what were all of these claims based on?
As Drumheller listened to President George W. Bush's state of the union address on January 28, 2003, he was amazed to hear him describe Curveball's "mobile laboratories" in detail. Drumheller's earlier warnings about Curveball had been ignored. When just a few days later Curveball's "intelligence" turned up featured in an advance copy of Powell's UN speech, Drumheller called McLaughlin's office and was summoned there at once. Sitting across from McLaughlin and an aide in a small conference room, Drumheller told him of a warning from a German intelligence officer (the Germans were debriefing Curveball) that, "He's a fabricator and he's crazy." McLaughin says he has "no recall" of that meeting.
Published on Monday, April 24, 2006 by CBS News
CIA Spy Speaks Out
by David Gelber and Joel Bach
According to Drumheller, CIA Director George Tenet delivered the news about the Iraqi foreign minister at a high-level meeting at the White House, including the president, the vice president and Secretary of State Rice.
At that meeting, Drumheller says, "They were enthusiastic because they said, they were excited that we had a high-level penetration of Iraqis."
What did this high-level source tell him?
"He told us that they had no active weapons of mass destruction program," says Drumheller.
The White House declined to respond to Drumheller's account of Naji Sabri’s role, but Secretary of State Rice has said that Sabri, the Iraqi foreign minister turned U.S. spy, was just one source, and therefore his information wasn’t reliable.
"They certainly took information that came from single sources on uranium, on the yellowcake story and on several other stories with no corroboration at all and so you can’t say you only listen to one source, because on many issues they only listened to one source," says Drumheller.
And of course there is the Downing street memo, the forged Niger document
You're not going to get any arguments that mistakes were made, it's just that in the larger context, they don't matter as much as some would like.
I heartily disagree. There is no more serious a decision made by any country than the one to go to war. To put citizens lives at risk expend treasure and to ask the population to support that decision.
And I personally don't believe that if Bush had stood up and told the American people that he wanted to go to war against Iraq because Saddam Hussein is a bad man, or because he had a vision to create a Democracy in the middle east, that he would've gotten that support from the American people. Only by painting Saddam as such a serious imminent threat that we couldn't allow any delay in going to war was he able to get that support. Support which was based on evidence that by all independent account appears to have been embellished and fabricated.
We seem to get story after story in which people who identify themselves claim/show that they pointed out the problems with pre-war intelligence. And yet time after time, discredited intelligence found its way back in Presidential speeches, Powell's UN statement and documents like the NIE. What we never seem to find out is, who kept putting the phony information back in after being told to take it out?
ReplyDeleteThose are the people who need to be hauled in front of Congressional committees and forced to testify, under oath, what they did and why they did it.
Okay, let's try a different approach:
ReplyDeleteForegoing for a moment the question of whether or not the Administration is made up of a collection of sociopaths or not, and also foregoing the whole "but everyone believed Saddam had/wanted/was pursuing WMDs" angle, I'd like to pose this to the thread and hear from all sides:
Can or does anyone here want to mount an actual defense of the behavior of the Bush Administration with respect to (a) the shortcomings of the intelligence it presented, and (b) its behavior since March 2003 with respect to the findings of the ISG and the conditions on the ground?
I ask because I really can't see one on either score, but I'm fair minded enough I'd like see if anyone else has a different take.
What we never seem to find out is, who kept putting the phony information back in after being told to take it out?
ReplyDeleteThose are the people who need to be hauled in front of Congressional committees and forced to testify, under oath, what they did and why they did it.
I think it's pretty obvious. It was the vice squad.
Vice Squad
They terrorize other government officials, and they’re so secretive that their names aren’t even revealed to a harmless federal employee directory. And they’ve helped ruin the country. Meet Dick Cheney’s staff.
By Robert Dreyfuss
Issue Date: 05.03.06
Bad heart, errant shotgun, and Halliburton stock options in tow, Dick Cheney has ruled the White House roost for the past five years, amassing enough power to give rise to the joke that George W. Bush is “a heartbeat away from the presidency.”
Yet, despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of words have been written on Cheney’s role in the Bush administration, most of what’s been written fails to explain how the vice president wields his extraordinary authority. Notoriously opaque, the Office of the Vice President (OVP) is very difficult for journalists to penetrate. But a Prospect investigation shows that the key to Cheney’s influence lies with the corps of hard-line acolytes he assembled in 2001. They serve not only as his eyes and ears, monitoring a federal bureaucracy that resists many of Cheney’s pet initiatives, but sometimes serve as his fists, too, when the man from Wyoming feels that the passive-aggressive bureaucrats need bullying. Like disciplined Bolsheviks slicing through a fractious opposition, Cheney’s team operates with a single-minded, ideological focus on the exercise of American military power, a belief in the untrammeled power of the presidency, and a fierce penchant for secrecy.
Since 2001, reporters and columnists have tended to refer to Cheney’s office obliquely, if at all. Rather than explicitly discuss the neoconservative cabal that has assumed control of important parts of U.S. policy since September 11, they couple references to “the civilians at the Pentagon” with “officials in the vice president’s office” when referring to administration hard-liners. But rarely do the mainstream media provide much detail to explain who those people are, what they’ve done, and how they operate.
At the high-water mark of neoconservative power, when coalition forces invaded Iraq in March 2003, the vice president’s office was the command center for a web of like-minded officials in the White House, the Pentagon, the State Department, and other agencies, often described by former officials as “Dick Cheney’s spies.” Now, thanks to a misguided war and a bungled occupation, along with a string of foreign-policy failures that have alienated U.S. allies and triggered a wave of anti-American feeling around the globe, the numbers and influence of those Cheneyites outside the office have receded. No longer quite so commanding, the office seems more like a bunker for neoconservatives and their fellow travelers in the administration. Yet if only because of Dick Cheney’s Rasputin-like hold over the president, his office remains a formidable power indeed...
Yankee... Can or does anyone here want to mount an actual defense of the behavior of the Bush Administration with respect to (a) the shortcomings of the intelligence it presented, and (b) its behavior since March 2003 with respect to the findings of the ISG and the conditions on the ground?
ReplyDeleteNon compus mentis is a suitable and appropriate legal defense in this instance.
Paul Rosenberg
ReplyDeleteI do not necessarily share the Arab perspective prtrayed in the Al Jazeera piece that I linked to. For the US the Iraq imbroglio is indeed an unmitigated disaster despite the spin that bart now portrays as to what did or did not happen in Haditha. Neither do I believe that it was in the US' strategic national interests. This really is a far far worse trainwreck than cutting and running in Korea or Vietnam were. US today faces the challenge of recovering its constitutional democracy from sinking into fascism where strategic policies serve the interests of corporate capitalism rather the interests of "we, the people". Even apart from that, there is the issue of who ends up bearing the burden of the national debt. Corporations will not but wage earners whose wages have not and are not sharing in the gains from rising labour productivity will unless the focus of fiscal and monetary policies are revised.
The Federal Reserve, since Volcker and Greenspan, has primarily and exclusively focused on keeping inflation down. Anxious to avert a wage push-demand pull inflationary spiral, it has increased interest rates at the earliest signs of wage rises, identifying that with overheating in the economy and justifying it on grounds of choking of demand pull inflationary pressures, thus tightening liquidity in the capital finance market. The increased cost of credit has had a two fold effect.
One, it has forced corporations to focus on cutting costs that has exerted a downward pressure on wages. Two, the market's response to tightening liquidity pressures has been to float very very risky credit derivatives, including Mortgage based securities (MBSs), to relieve liquidity pressures. The latter are marketed as relatively low risk tradeable bonds backed by mortgages as assets. Their sales pitch, particularly to small investors, is that mortgagees already screen borrowers on their ability to make repayments and credit rating. There has been systemic abuse of the screening process as many mortgages that provide the asset backing for the MBSs are not primary mortgages where default rate is high. This is compounded by the encouragement of Greenspan for mortgagors to switch to variable interest rates. There are already ominous signs that the housing bubble ushered in the wake of Federal Reserve's response to the SE Asian liquidity crisis cannot be sustained.
The thrust of fiscal policy has been to create small group of people who can amass the wealth necessary to compete with petrodollar sheikhs. Most other countries in Europe and elsewhere protect their national assets by placing restrictions on foreign ownership. This has allowed them the leeway to introduce a fiscal policy largely reliant on progressive taxation that provides free public education from age four years to age 18 years and public subsidies for vocational and higher education beyond that; universal health care and CPI indexed universal pension cover from general revenue. The US has opted instead to compete with the petrodollar earnings of oil producers by creating a small wealthy elite who invests their wealth in non taxable assets and has the freedom to seek overseas tax havens. The consequence of this, along with the down ward pressure wages, is inequalities in income and wealth distribution.
Current trade and budgetary imbalances are being sustained by sales of Federal Reserve bonds or IOUs traded internationally. To maintain their demand, the Federal Reserve needs to offer a competitive rate of return and the upward trajectory of interest rates reflects that. This increases the burden on wage earners who form the general revenue base. Their wages are hardly rising and they face increases in interest payments on their credit cards and mortgages. The inequalities already created in income and wealth distribution thus becomes generationally entrenched.
The Iraq misadventure worsens an already bad situation for years to come.
No I hardly think this is the smartest goal the richest country in the world deserves to set itself.
Just finished "Cobra II", and as I recall, it says by January 2003, the team was behind in its invasion planning and getting flak from Rumsfeld.
ReplyDeleteEven then there was no turning back from the course the Rummy and Bushie had set. They weren't listening to anyone but themselves.
Ahhhhhhh. Another "spin cycle" for the quote list from the RNC of all the Democrats who supposedly thought that Saddam had all the bad, baaaaaddd WoMD....
ReplyDeleteShooter doesn't mention that these folks were harldy unequivocal in claiming that Saddam had WoMD, and in many cases, these opinions were shaped by carefully massaged and twisted "intelligence" that the maladministration had been feeding people (which is what the original post by Hume's Ghost was all about).
Say, here's a bit more of the Gore quote (funny Shooter leave that bit off):
Here's another of the main points I want to make. If we quickly succeed in a war against the weakened and depleted fourth-rate military of Iraq and then quickly abandon that nation, as President Bush has quickly abandoned almost all of Afghanistan after quickly defeating a fifth-rate military power there, then the resulting chaos in the aftermath of a military victory in Iraq could easily pose a far greater danger to the United States than we presently face from Saddam. Here's why I say that; we know that he has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country. As yet, we have no evidence, however, that he has shared any of those weapons with terrorist groups. If the administration has evidence that he has, please present it, because that would change the way we all look at this thing. But if Iraq came to resemble Afghanistan, in its current depleted state, with no central authority - well, they have a central authority, but their central authority, because the administration's insistence that the international community not be allowed to assemble a peace keeping force large enough to pacify the countryside, that new government in Afghanistan controls a few precincts in one city and the warlords or drug lords control the whole rest of the countryside.
Gore might have been off on the state of Saddam's CBW, but he was spot-on in his analysis of Dubya's stoopidity.
Cheers,
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it took three teams of experts to come to a decision is telling in itself, with the most expert team taking four hours to reach a conclusion that excluded WMD production.
The fact that only four hours was enough for them to conclusively decide it was a crock (and so much so that they refused to weasel it even under maladministration pressure to soften their conclusions) is telling: It measn it was a crock. And that's independent of "Curveball's" known unreliability.
Cheers,
Oh, BTW, sorry, link for the Gore quote (which Shooter doesn't bother to cite or link, as he doesn't for any of this).
ReplyDeleteCheers,
HWSNBN quotes the Iraq Committee report:
ReplyDelete(U) The Committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with Administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so.
The instance in question shows that the experts did not change their views even under pressure. The maladministration ignored them and put the the whole thing under wraps.
Pat Roberts, despite promising an investigation on misuses of intelligence coming up on two years ago, is still stone-walling for the maladminitsration.
Cheers,
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteAs soon as anyone can point out to a seer who predicted all of the results of the Iraqi intervention, good and bad, then I might get excited.
Hell, I did (have to admit, though, that I underestimated the bloody aftermath of the occupation a bit, in part due to overestimating the ability of the maladministration to deal with it once they knew they had a problem). But all HWSNBN needs to do is read something outside of Freeper.com and WhirledNutzDaily (like the Gore speech Shooter cherry-picked for his out-of-context quote, which I gave a full link for above) and he might have been enlightenbed as well. Never too late to start, though, but for sycophantic flacks like the troll HWSNBN, there's no incentive; no "RNC Team Leader" baseball caps or tote bags to be had.....
Cheers,
HWSNBN lies:
ReplyDeleteFound ongoing WMD programs.
Found approximately 1500 al Qaeda and other jihadis in pre War Iraq.
NC.
Cheers,
Shooter:
ReplyDeleteOTOH it is the nature of intelligence to be incomplete and often misleading.
In BushWorld, yes, indeedy. But you left the quotes off around the word "intelligence" there....
Cheers,
"Take any quote from any dishonest slimeball like shooter and expand it by a couple of paragraphs and you're more than likely to encounter similar revelatory material."
ReplyDeleteWhich will conveniently change the subject from what they believe Saddam has for WMD's.
Oh, I'm sure it's in"convenient" for you to be shown the dishonest slimeball that you are. The subject was never what some Dems believe Saddam had for WMDs. I think you know that, but you may actually be as stupid as you are corrupt.
Shooter doesn't mention that ... in many cases, these opinions were shaped by carefully massaged and twisted "intelligence" that the maladministration had been feeding people (which is what the original post by Hume's Ghost was all about).
ReplyDeleteShooter didn't, but I did, and in "response" he complained that I had changed the subject ... from what those Dems believed Saddam had, har-de-har-har. What a slimeball.
Oh, BTW, sorry, link for the Gore quote (which Shooter doesn't bother to cite or link, as he doesn't for any of this).
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, shooter did provide a link for the Gore quote, after someone else wrongly claimed he had modified it. No modification, just ripping it out of the relevant context. Gore did "unequivocally" state that Saddam had secret caches, but what is relevant to this discussion is why someone believes that, if they believe it, and for what purpose they make the claim. For the Bushies, it was to make a case for war that wasn't supported by the evidence; it made a great amount of difference that the claims were made as absolute certainties. For Gore, it was to warn about legitimate risks of war; making a less certain statement wouldn't have changed his argument any. He stated what was the common wisdom in the U.S. (but not elsewhere), as fed to him by a corrupt intelligence apparatus; Gore's statement was not authoritative, whereas the statements coming from the White House were. Gore was stating what he had been told by authorities, rather than repeating what he had fed to reporters, as with Cheney and Rice quoting Judith Miller.
But hey, all of this is well known, even to scum like shooter.
"Small wonder then that they'll go to these lengths to avoid admitting any mistakes or examining their actions."
ReplyDeleteMuch like their accusers.
Shooter, you are such a moron. Tu quoque is a fallacy; it's the sandbox "he did it too!" argument, and the most stupid of all fallacies, because it explicitly admits to the charge. Ya see, we have your acknowledgement right there in black and white, but your counter-charge is, aside from being irrelevant, still unestablished.
BTW, you cretin, "ad hominem" is not a synonym for "insult". I present a legitimate counterargument and I point out that you are a slimeball who misrepresents and evades the truth. An ad hominem is a fallacy, a personal attack where a legitimate argument is due. Simply calling someone a slimeball is not in and of itself fallacious.
truth machine:
ReplyDeleteBTW, you cretin, "ad hominem" is not a synonym for "insult". I present a legitimate counterargument and I point out that you are a slimeball who misrepresents and evades the truth. An ad hominem is a fallacy, a personal attack where a legitimate argument is due. Simply calling someone a slimeball is not in and of itself fallacious.
Being just a tad more precise (or pedantic, take your pick), an "ad hominem" is an attack on the person, whereas an "ad hominem argument" is a logical fallacy where an attack on the person substitutes for a refutation of the argument on the merits, and is indended to "refute" the argument by casting doubt on the veracity or competence of the presenter. While sometimes justified (for instance, in a court of law, you may attack the reputation of the proponent of a fact for their truthfulness), it is a clear fallacy when talking about purely logical matters (where there are no facts that are in dispute or unknown, or at the very least are not assumed for purpose of the logical argument [assuming the facts is a different logical fallacy unless clearly stated that such is being done]).
That all being said, "ad hominem", in and of itself, is perfectly legal (if not polite), and is sometimes quite justified, particularly in political discussions. It is relevant in the political millieu if one part is a bunch of scuzzbuckets ... at leats in my book.
Cheers,
It looks like we was right, and there's your answer...
ReplyDeleteLarry Wilkerson: Former Admin. Official Needs Only Three Words To Explain Manipulation of Intel: ‘The Vice President’
JONES: My question is this to all four of you who would like to answer, maybe it’s a very simple question. I apologize if it’s been asked before. But what perplexes me is how in the world could professionals – I’m not criticizing anybody here at this table – but how could the professionals see what was happening and nobody speak out?
ReplyDeleteI’m not saying you did not do your duty, please understand. My point is as a congressman who trusted what I was being told – I’m was not on the Intelligence Committee, Senator Dorgan, but I am on the Armed Services Committee – and I was being told this information. And I wish I’d the wisdom then that I might have now. I would have known what to ask. But I think many of my colleagues – they did not have the experience on the Intelligence Committee – we just pretty much accepted.
So where along the way – how did these people so early on get so much power that they had more influence in those in the administration to make decisions than you the professionals.
WILKERSON: Let me try to answer you first. Let me say right off the bat I’m glad to see you here.
JONES: Thank you sir.
WILKERSON: As a Republican, I’m somewhat embarrassed by the fact that you’re the only member of my party here.
JONES: I agree.
WILKERSON: But I understand it. I’d answer you with two words. Let me put the article in there and make it three. The Vice President.
It looks like the trolls did what they always do when the going gets too tough. They cut and run, and blame it on the opposition.
ReplyDeleteBeing just a tad more precise (or pedantic, take your pick), an "ad hominem" is an attack on the person
ReplyDeleteNo, that is not more precise, it is wrong. As I said, "ad hominem" is not a synonym for "insult", but you are simply naysaying me and repeating that mistake. "ad hominem" is shorthand for "ad hominem argument", "ad hominem fallacy", or "ad hominem appeal". "ad hominem" is an adjectival phrase, and there is no such thing as "an ad hominem" as a separate noun. I refer you to
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aad+hominem
Each of those seven bullets agrees with me; six of them use the word "rather" explicitly, and the seventh uses the word "substituting".
WILKERSON: But I understand it. I’d answer you with two words. Let me put the article in there and make it three. The Vice President.
ReplyDeleteThere you go. Anyone who hasn't seen FrontLine's "The Dark Side" on the tube should check it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/
And Dick Cheney and his sidekick Don Rumsfeld have been a corrupting force of American politics and power since long before they got ahold of the Bush administration. In a just world, these fellows would be living out their lives in dank cells.
I think you are both right about ad hominems. Begging the question is now used and accepted as both the logical fallacy and the previously incorrect meaning of "prompting the question". Ad hominems do not have to be insulting, but many people use the term as short hand for personal attacks when no insult is involved, but an argument is not refuted but the source is attacked.
ReplyDeleteSubtypes
4.1 Ad hominem abusive or ad personam
4.2 Ad hominem circumstantial
4.3 Ad hominem tu quoque
4.3.1 You-too version
4.3.2 Inconsistency version
4.4 Guilt by Association
Limbaugh detained at airport for illegal drugs. Hehe.
ReplyDeleteI think you are both right about ad hominems.
ReplyDeleteWe can't both be right, as we contradicted each other.
Ad hominems do not have to be insulting
Indeed, but that's not the crux of the disagreement.
but many people use the term as short hand for personal attacks when no insult is involved, but an argument is not refuted but the source is attacked.
In other words, I'm right and Arne is wrong. The use of the term "ad hominem" is only valid when "an argument is not refuted" -- when the personal attack is used as a substitute for a rebuttal to the person's argument.
Begging the question is now used and accepted as both the logical fallacy and the previously incorrect meaning of "prompting the question".
ReplyDeleteIt may be used that way but it's not "accepted" ... unless you consider a connection between Saddam and 9/11 to be "accepted" just because some ignorant people think there is one.
Properly, "begging the question" is petitio principii, a circular argument -- which is an informal fallacy, not a logical fallacy; "P; therefore P" is logically valid. This can sometimes be construed as "prompting" the question that was never answered; e.g., what is the justification for claiming P? But "begging the question" does not validly refer to merely "prompting" some question in a non-fallacious context, regardless of how many uninformed people "accept" it.
BTW, if you google "begs the question", you will find that all the first page instances in which it is used in the sense of "raise the question" are examples of that usage that are being criticized. I think, therefore, that it is clearly incorrect to say that it is "accepted", regardless of what wikipedia or the New Oxford may say.
ReplyDeleteNext we will be told that "he lead us into war" is "acceptable" usage, just because that error has become widespread.
Now Arne and I are right and you are being a literalist nudge.
ReplyDeleteShooter is always wrong, however, and life, and even logic, are full of paradoxes. The fact that it is "in usage" with this meaning indicates its "acceptance" by some.
ReplyDeleteThe front page of a google search is only the first step of an inquiry.
Modern usage
More recently, "begs the question" has been used as a synonym for "invites the question" or "raises the question", or to indicate that "the question really ought to be addressed". In this usage, "the question" is stated in the next phrase. The following is an example: "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" This usage is often sharply criticized by proponents of the traditional meaning, but it has nonetheless come into common use.
Argument over whether this usage should be considered incorrect is an example of the debate between linguistic prescription and description.
truth machine:
ReplyDelete"ad hominem" is an adjectival phrase, and there is no such thing as "an ad hominem" as a separate noun.
But it could be (somewhat redundantly) "ad hominem" insult (or vituperation, or declamation, or rhetoric, or diatribe, etc.).
The web pages you seem to allude to list it as "ad hominem" fallacy, which implies the logical error (and thus the argumentative nature of the "ad hom"). But "ad hominem" means simply "against the man", a description of insult as well (as long as it's not being proffered for the truth of a different matter).
True, the most common usage is as short for "ad hominem argument". But I just wanted to clarify that what is commonly called "ad hom" by my -- ummm, "correspondents" -- is generally me just saying they're eedjits. They want to argue that my pointing out facts is some kind of logical fallacy; it is not. I generally provide substantive argument to the point along with my abuse. They try to deflect the actual arguments by pointing at the abuse.
We're on the same page, though, I think. We both understand what the other is saying:
[TM]: "BTW, you cretin, 'ad hominem' is not a synonym for 'insult'. I present a legitimate counterargument and I point out that you are a slimeball who misrepresents and evades the truth."
There's nothing logically wrong with abusive language (base "ad hominem"), although it may not be the most persuasive tactic (but when arguing with Rethuglicans and Dubya sycophants, any such possible "persuasion" is of an illusory character so I usually dispense with the niceties).
Hope that clarifies my position.
I won't go into discussion of "begging the question"/"petitio principii"; I'm over and done with that (elsewhere), it's been hacked to death with no obvious victor in the debate....
Cheers,
glory be - the trolls have disappeared! This bart who claims to have been a Federal prosecutor, shows a remarkable disregard for rational logic constructs but is like the white rabbit from Alice in Wonderland except we are not little girls like Alice ready to follow him into his burrow - we are more the reflective Alice of Alice Through the Looking Glass - smoking caterpillars notwithstanding, what's in the Kool-aid stuff that invites such ad hominem tu quoque Rovery to focus on questioning the integrity of those presenting critiques rather than the susbstance of the criques?
ReplyDeleteThis is the story the wingers are trying to distract us from:
ReplyDeleteNSA sought to monitor domestic calls BEFORE 9/11/.