I hope you won’t mind my going back in time a bit, but lots of threads to the past are converging these days. Recently this post on my blog generated some comments about support given to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s by St. Ronald of Blessed Memory, even as Saddam was going through his “gassing the Kurds” phase. I was reminded of this episode again today. Murray Waas posted a lovely bit of writing at Huffington Post in which he explains why he dedicated himself to exposing the Reagan-Bush I support for Saddam Hussein. He also speaks to why he is dedicating himself to exposing the lies and manipulations that got us into Iraq. Be sure to read it; it’s very moving.
Back to the gassing of the Kurds, which I'll tie into current events below: You’ll remember that in the weeks before the Iraq invasion, a hoard of operatives infested talk radio and cable news, babbling about how Saddam “gassed his own people,” meaning the Kurds, which was why we had to invade Iraq right now. A month before the invasion I wrote this piece for Democratic Underground about why the “gassing his own people” talking point fell way short of a casus belli. And in that I linked to this 1993 Los Angeles Times article by Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas about how Bush I secretly continued to build Iraq’s war machine after the gassing of the Kurds. Just nine months before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, President Bush I approved $1 billion in aid to Iraq. The Bush I Administration also provided Iraq with access to sophisticated “dual use” (military and civilian) technology, “despite emerging evidence that they were working on nuclear arms and other weapons of mass destruction.” Frantz and Waas uncovered ...
…a long-secret pattern of personal efforts by Bush — both as President and as vice president — to support and placate the Iraqi dictator. Repeatedly, when serious objections to helping Hussein arose within the government, Bush and aides following his directives intervened to suppress the resistance.
The reason for this, ostensibly, was that while Saddam Hussein might have been an odious little toad, he was an enemy of Iran, which after the fall of the Soviet Union had moved into the #1 spot on the Real Bad Places list. [Update: The Soviet Union didn't fall until 1991; I had my chronology confused. But you know that Iran had been high on the Real Bad Places list since the Carter-era hostage crisis.]
But classified records show that Bush’s efforts on Hussein’s behalf continued well beyond the end of the Iran-Iraq War and persisted in the face of increasingly widespread warnings from inside the American government that the overall policy had become misdirected.
Moreover, it appears that instead of merely keeping Hussein afloat as a counterweight to Iran, the U.S. aid program helped him become a dangerous military power in his own right, able to threaten the very U.S. interests that the program originally was designed to protect.
Clearly, U.S. aid did not lead Hussein to become a force for peace in the volatile region. In the spring of 1990, as senior Administration officials worked to give him more financial aid, the Iraqi leader bragged that Iraq possessed chemical weapons and threatened to “burn half of Israel.” Nor did he change his savagely repressive methods. In the summer of 1988, for example, he shocked the world by killing several thousand Kurds with poison gas.
Even today, the Iraqi nuclear and chemical weapons programs carried forward with the help of sophisticated American technology continue to haunt U.S. and United Nations officials as they struggle to root out elements of those programs that have survived the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War.
I remember when Halabja was gassed, killing 5,000 Kurds, in March 1988. I remember especially the photographs of dead mothers, their arms wrapped protectively around their dead babies. I also remember some movement in the Senate toward doing something about it. Senators Claiborne Pell, Al Gore, and Jesse Helms introduced legislation to impose sanctions on Iraq, and the Senate passed a Prevention of Genocide Act, unanimously, just one day after it was introduced.
But President Reagan vetoed the Act [Update: I am advised that Reagan didn't veto the Act formally but was behind getting it killed in Congress.], and the White House squelched any reprisals or sanctions against Saddam, and continued to shovel truckloads of money and technology to Baghdad. The Reagan administration's fine-tuned objection to the massacre at Halabja was that Saddam Hussein had used gas to kill his own citizens, not that he had killed them. Some State Department officials suggested that Iran, not Iraq, had gassed Halabja. And after 1988 President Bush I continued Reagan’s policies.
This part of the Franz-Waas article caught my attention:
What drove Bush to champion the Iraqi cause so ardently and so long is not clear. But some evidence suggests that it may have been a case of single-minded pursuit of a policy after its original purpose had been overtaken by events — and a failure to understand the true nature of Hussein himself.
Maybe Junior isn’t as different from Poppy as we had thought. Anyway, however menacing Saddam became, Bush I continued to treat him as if he were America’s Best Bud. I dimly remember hearing that when Saddam invaded Kuwait, he sincerely believed George Bush I wouldn’t mind.
And some of you will remember the glorious episode that occurred after the Persian Gulf War, in which President Bush I encouraged the Kurds to rebel against Saddam Hussein and then stood by while Saddam crushed the rebellion, ruthlessly. I believe some of the mass graves found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion — the ones that didn’t date to the Iran-Iraq War or the Persian Gulf War — held the bodies of Kurdish rebels.
In 2003, before the invasion, I remembered Halabja, and I remembered the crushed Kurdish rebellion. The righties who were fired up to to go war had never heard of these things before; some seemed to think the Kurds were still being gassed, and we had to invade quickly to rescue them. And after the invasion, whenever troops found a mass grave of Kurdish rebels, the righties would dance about and yell See? We told you Saddam was evil. But the mass graves were no surprise. The righties were always oblivious to the rest of the story, and wouldn’t listen, and wouldn’t believe us if they did listen.
But it strikes me now that all of the trouble surrounding Iraq going back 20 years resulted from Republican presidents being soft with a ruthless dictator. Appeasing, even. It’s a damn shame the Dems didn’t push that point through the Noise Machine years ago, because not doing so allowed the next generation of soft little Republican fatasses to portray themselves as hardened he-men warriors, even as they call Democrats “weak” and swift-boat any real warriors who dare oppose them.
All along, the Iraq War was more valuable to the Bush Regime as a club with which to bash Democrats than as a strategy for whatever it was the invasion was supposed to accomplish. Indeed, in 2002 I sincerely believed the saber-rattling was only about the 2002 midterms -- I mean, actually invading Iraq made no bleeping sense -- and assumed the Bushies would settle down as soon as the votes were counted. Back then I still thought there must be some kind of logic behind Bush policies other than the Glorification of Dear Leader and the Expansion of His Power. Boy, was I naive.
Today Democrats are angry because, after days listening to their Iraq withdrawal proposal derided as "cut and run," they learn that the White House has a similar proposal under consideration. The plot of this movie is too familiar; somehow, enabled by media, Republicans will spin the Republican cut and run propsal as principled and the Democrats' as cowardly, even though you might have trouble working dental floss between the two.
But they get away with it because the GOP has invested years in telling the story of the noble Republicans who stand strong against our enemies while the cowardly Democrats snivel in the corner and badmouth the troops. And I'm sure you've heard the part about how Democrats are appeasers because they don't realize evil people can't be trusted. But Republicans, the story goes, understand that evil people are evil and won't let them get away with squat.
Just like Ronald Reagan, who was strong, and who squared his shoulders and sat tall in the saddle, even as he looked the other way when Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds.
And no matter how big a mess the Republicans make of national security, at least some voters will still vote Republican because they believe the story, even though its a fairy tale.
Democrats are brilliant at thinking up policies, complete with earnest executive summaries and lots of bulleted lists. But they don't know how to tell stories, which is why they're a minority party now. And it's a shame, because the Dems wouldn't have had to rely on fantasy; there are plenty of facts that can be dredged out of the memory hole that would make wonderful stories.
With not much else to run on, Republicans will spin their national security tale any way they can from now until the November elections. Let's hope cognitive dissonance can only stretch so far.
Of course, everyone understands dollars and sense -- economic issues that affect most working Americans, families, and their children could also generate wide support.
ReplyDeleteIt was once the backbone of liberal/prgressive politics.
Even the chimperor's war on terror cannot withstand scrutiny from a fiscal perspective -- it is anything but "conservative" and actually represents wholesale looting and theft of BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.
There is no shortage of issues that we can hammer these folks on - issues they cannot possibly spin as positive.
Of course, as I recall, you have stated you "don't do numbers". Your post is reasonable, but you are not mentioning anything that is going to registar with chimpy's supporters that are starting to sit on the fence.
It is a shame we don't take about simple things like the dollars in the average American's pocket and the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS that are being stolen by the military-industrial complex.
We could stop the killing, torture, and illegal war if we talked about the theft and irresponsible management of socio-economic and fiscal issues.
ReplyDeleteWhy am I suddenly reminded of the fact that Osama Bin Laden was a direct recipient of US/CIA aid back when he was a freedom fighter for Islam against those Godless Communists of the USSR?
ReplyDeleteOh well...how soon we forget....
Barbara O'Brien:
ReplyDeleteAnd in that I linked to this 1993 Los Angeles Times article by Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas about how Bush I secretly continued to build Iraq’s war machine after the gassing of the Kurds. Just nine months before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, President Bush I approved $1 billion in aid to Iraq.
Really? George I was shipping arms to Iraq to build its war machine?
Then I go to the link and read this...
The $1-billion commitment, in the form of loan guarantees for the purchase of U.S. farm
commodities, enabled Hussein to buy needed foodstuffs on credit and to spend his scarce reserves of hard currency on the massive arms buildup that brought war to the Persian Gulf.
Agricultural loan guarantees nine months before the Persian Gulf War built the Iraqi war machine?
Give me a frigging break! This has to be one of the weakest Donkey conspiracy theories offered here.
Here are some clues for the clueless...
1) Saddam had already bought all the weapons he would use in the Persian Gulf War.
2) The US gave out loan guarantees to sell US agriculture all over the world. Iraq was hardly singled out for this.
3) The loan guarantees would only lower Saddam's interest rates somewhat. Banks were not exactly shy about loaning oil countries money.
4) You might want to look at the fire sale terms being given by the Russians selling their weapons to anyone who would buy them to raise hard currency because their economy had collapsed. Of course, since Reagan was instrumental in collapsing the Soviet economy en route to winning the Cold War, I suppose the Soviet arms fire sale is also his fault.
Even today, the Iraqi nuclear and chemical weapons programs carried forward with the help of sophisticated American technology continue to haunt U.S. and United Nations officials as they struggle to root out elements of those programs that have survived the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War.
Sophisticated American technology? Such as?
You might want to instead take a closer look at the French, German and Russian companies who provided Iraq with the technology and supplies to build his chemical WMD. Whatever materials Saddam bought on the open market from the US didn't amount to a pimple on the backside of the WMD elephant.
Those 500 Iraqi sarin and mustard gas shells we are filling a small warehouse with are Soviet sourced chemical artillery and mortar shells.
All along, the Iraq War was more valuable to the Bush Regime as a club with which to bash Democrats than as a strategy for whatever it was the invasion was supposed to accomplish. Indeed, in 2002 I sincerely believed the saber-rattling was only about the 2002 midterms -- I mean, actually invading Iraq made no bleeping sense -- and assumed the Bushies would settle down as soon as the votes were counted.
The United States government on a bipartisan basis, with the full throated support of the 2004 and likely 2008 Donkey presidential nominees, ramped up for war with the purpose of getting Elephants elected in 2002?
My God, are you serious?
If not, get some mental health counseling.
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteWhy am I suddenly reminded of the fact that Osama Bin Laden was a direct recipient of US/CIA aid back when he was a freedom fighter for Islam against those Godless Communists of the USSR?
Ah, the tin foil hat swamps are at full fever tonight!
Hero, Osama bin Laden was not one of the Afghan jihadi the US was supporting against the Soviet invaders.
Osama was a wealthy multimillionaire from a Saudi family who made a fortune in construction contracts paid for with petro-dollars.
Osama was a supplier of the Afghan jihadis from his own funds, not one of the supplied jihadis.
al Qaeda was not even a dream in his sick little head yet.
Osama was a supplier of the Afghan jihadis from his own funds, not one of the supplied jihadis
ReplyDeleteSo are you denying that we were fighting on the same side against the Soviets? I only ask because I suspect that "Islamofascism" and "Godless Communism" carry about the same weight with you in being the enemy de jour.
Bart,
ReplyDelete"NATIONAL REPORTING
[Nominated Finalist] Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas of Los Angeles Times
For documenting the clandestine effort of the U.S. government to supply money and weapons to Iraq in the 1980's and up to the weeks before the Gulf War."
source: http://www.pulitzer.org/
Now you can make your pedantic argumentative "case" by focusing on inconsequential details and dismissing them as conspiracy theories, but this honour wasn't given for fiction.
Bush I was supplying arms to Saddam right up to Gulf War I. Deal with it.
People do love their stories.
ReplyDeleteWhat can we humble bloggers do to create an echo chamber of our own? We don't have the kind of circulation or credibility as the MSM, and the people that really need to hear us can always just hit the "back" button.
I'm really discouraged right now.
True enough, except a lot of those mass graves are filled with Shiites whose uprising was urged by GHWB and was furiously crushed while American troops looked on from a few miles away. It wasn't just the Kurds, oh no.
ReplyDeleteRemember when Kurds were fleeing the Republican Guard sent by Saddam to slaughter them after GWI? And there were news reporters among the refugees fleeing in their finest clothes to the mountains. And there were endless pleas to GHWB on the teevee, imploring him to do something, only for the longest time, as the Kurdish refugees fled to the mountains and died of exposure and disease, 25,000 of them dead of exposure and disease and who knows how many mowed down by Saddam's armies, GHWB did nothing.
Until finally, very late in the game, after the Kurdish and the Shiia uprisings were crushed by Saddam, GHWB bestirred himself and decreed the infamous No Fly Zones, north and south, which protected the Kurds and the Shiia somewhat from Saddam's depredations, and from which the hostilities that eventually led to the invasion and occupation began in 2002.
How come GHWB could not be bothered with the fate of the rebellions he encouraged? Was he daft?
could someone set the site feed back to full feed instead of abstracts?
ReplyDeletephd9:
ReplyDeleteWhy am I suddenly reminded of the fact that Osama Bin Laden was a direct recipient of US/CIA aid back when he was a freedom fighter for Islam against those Godless Communists of the USSR?
Oh well...how soon we forget....
I'll plug it once again: Stephen Kinzer's "Overthrow".
Must reading. His book "All The Shah's Men" came out before the cuurent insanity and should have been required reading ... but sadly, it wasn't.
Cheers,
Barbara,
ReplyDeleteSaddam not only thought Bush I "wouldn't mind" if he invaded Kuwait, he believed he had received America's explicit expression of "we don't care what you do...it's an Arab/Arab conflict."
Kuwait had been slant drilling for oil...sending their oil drills down at a slant so that they reached into oil fields which lay under Iraqi soil. For this siphoning off of Iraqi oil, and for other reasons, Hussein had had tensions with Kuwait which were building over time. American ambassador April Glaspie met with Hussein to discuss these mounting tensions. Here is a partial transcript of their discussion:
Transcript of Meeting Between Iraqi President, Saddam Hussein and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. - July 25, 1990 (Eight days before the August 2, 1990 Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait)
July 25, 1990 - Presidential Palace - Baghdad
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for higher oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. (pause) As you know, I lived here for years and admire your extraordinary efforts to rebuild your country. We know you need funds. We understand that, and our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. (pause) We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business, but when this happens in the context of your threat s against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship - not confrontation - regarding your intentions: Why are your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's borders?
Saddam Hussein - As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two days; I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance. (pause) When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope, then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it will be natural that Iraq will not accept death.
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - What solutions would be acceptable?
Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)
On August 2, 1990, Saddam's massed troops invade and occupy Kuwait. _____
Baghdad, September 2, 1990, U.S. Embassy
One month later, British journalists obtain the the above tape and transcript of the Saddam - Glaspie meeting of July 29, 1990. Astounded, they confront Ms. Glaspie as she leaves the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.
Journalist 1 - Are the transcripts (holding them up) correct, Madam Ambassador?(Ambassador Glaspie does not respond)
Journalist 2 - You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait ) but you didn't warn him not to. You didn't tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him the opposite - that America was not associated with Kuwait.
Journalist 1 - You encouraged this aggression - his invasi on. What were you thinking?
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait.
Journalist 1 - You thought he was just going to take some of it? But, how could you? Saddam told you that, if negotiations failed , he would give up his Iran (Shatt al Arab waterway) goal for the Whole of Iraq, in the shape we wish it to be. You know that includes Kuwait, which the Iraqis have always viewed as an historic part of their country!
Journalist 1 - American green-lighted the invasion. At a minimum, you admit signaling Saddam that some aggression was okay - that the U.S. would not oppose a grab of the al-Rumeilah oil field, the disputed border strip and the Gulf Islands (including Bubiyan) - the territories claimed by Iraq?
(Ambassador Glaspie says nothing as a limousine door closed behind her and the car drives off.)
Here's a link to a fuller transcript of their discussion:
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/
english/furr/glaspie.html
In addition, little reported at the time--which I didn't realize until years later, as New York Newsday, one of the daily papers I read, was one of only two American newspapers which originally reported it--Hussein, having invaded Kuwait and seeing America's resulting displeasure and threats of military intervention, announced he was willing to discuss a diplomatic solution. Bush dismissed this possibility out of hand.
In retrospect, one reaches the almost inescapable conclusion that the Bush administration wanted Hussein to invade Kuwait, in order to to have a reason to attack him. First we gave Hussein to believe we didn't care if he invaded Kuwait, then, after he did invade, Bush I began making ludicrous comparisons of Hussein to Hitler, and he told tales--later discredited--that Iraqi soldiers invaded Kuwaiti hospitals and removed newborn babies from their incubators and threw them on the ground and left them to die.
Here's a link:
http://www.geocities.com/
CapitolHill/3589/us-iraq-lie.html
In short, Hussein was played. Bush wanted a reason to go to war against Iraq...to gain control of Iraqi oil fields? to establish a strategic advantage in the region? merely to pump up his limp, sissy-boy "weak President" image and parade around as a macho warrior? All of these reasons or others?
This is not to excuse Hussein, but merely to show we were absolutely complicit in the events which led to the Persian Gulf war,and to the subsequent decade and a half of geopolitical disaster in that region, culminating in our failed present war there.
Both Bush I and his even less adequate son are war criminals.
_____
I dimly remember hearing that when Saddam invaded Kuwait, he sincerely believed George Bush I wouldn’t mind.
ReplyDeleteApril Glaspie, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, had explicitly told him "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." I would have thought that this is so well known and so widely written about that it doesn't have to be "dimly" remembered. As to whether Saddam Hussein "sincerely believed" that this meant that the U.S. "wouldn't mind" if he invaded Kuwait, Glaspie testified before the Senate: "We foolishly did not realize he was stupid."
Saddam not only thought Bush I "wouldn't mind" if he invaded Kuwait, he believed he had received America's explicit expression of "we don't care what you do...it's an Arab/Arab conflict."
ReplyDeleteWhat, you have a mind-reading machine? It isn't possible to know what he believed, but he didn't get where he did by being stupid, and it would have been stupid to believe that, as Glaspie testified. More likely, Saddam underestimated the level of response. But keep in mind that he stayed in power for another 12 years, living comfortably in his palaces; he wasn't among the slaughtered.
Both Bush I and his even less adequate son are war criminals.
No doubt of that.
Hero, Osama bin Laden was not one of the Afghan jihadi the US was supporting against the Soviet invaders.
ReplyDeleteAn irrelevant quibble.
al Qaeda was not even a dream in his sick little head yet.
Fart is wrong as usual.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html
Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.
there are plenty of facts that can be dredged out of the memory hole that would make wonderful stories
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorites: Why We Didn't Remove Saddam, by George H. W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft.
The reference to the Prevention of Genocide Act in this post sent me off in search of more information. What I found was positively sickening.
ReplyDelete"When sanctions for gassing the Kurds were being debated within the US government, Iraq threatened to turn to other countries in the world market, warning that it would stop payment on over $1 billion in outstanding debt if the United States imposed sanctions. Leading members of the US-Iraq Business Forum and other special interests in Washington then pressured members of the House to kill the sanctions bill."
More where that came from. I blogged it here.
To the major -
ReplyDeleteWord the wise: until you learn to spell properly, people are either going to treat you as a joke or a troll. Either is your intention, pray continue posting in this fashion.
Otherwise please learn to use spell-check. This is getting sillier than Bart's attempts at rebuttal.
I was five or six during the Gulf War, so a lot of the stuff in the comments here is new to me. Thanks for adding it to the discussion.
ReplyDeleteI do know a bit about the Prevention of Genocide Act, since it was discussed in a book I read. The reason it passed the Senate so overwhelmingly is that it came to a vote before anyone knew what it actually did. With a name like that, everyone's first inclination was to vote for it. Then, by the time it made it to the House, the lobbyists had read it and they realized that if it passed, Saddam would stop buying U.S. agricultural products and so on. Furthermore, "In order to achieve its foreign policy goals, Iraq demanded that its major trade partners in the private sector pressure key members of Congress as well as the White House to block any proposals for economic sanctions or to act in other ways that harmed Iraq." (source is the same as Catastrophile's. As a result, the bill was killed.
I don't give the Senate much credit for passing the bill. If they had actually read it, they would have rejected it, too.
The Gulf War was BEFORE the Soviet Union collapsed.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN will defend his beloved Rethuglicans to the end:
ReplyDeleteAgricultural loan guarantees nine months before the Persian Gulf War built the Iraqi war machine?
Give me a frigging break! This has to be one of the weakest Donkey conspiracy theories offered here.
Who said "conspiracy"? Ummm, let me look. Oh, yeah, it was the troll HWSNBN....
Here are some clues for the clueless...
HWSNBN misspells "from". Typical.
1) Saddam had already bought all the weapons he would use in the Persian Gulf War.
Oh. So that makes it "right" ... in hindsight.
2) The US gave out loan guarantees to sell US agriculture all over the world. Iraq was hardly singled out for this.
Oh. So it was just for the benefit of U.S. business interests. Damn the consequences. So that makes it "right".
3) The loan guarantees would only lower Saddam's interest rates somewhat. Banks were not exactly shy about loaning oil countries money.
Oh. The old "tu would have kind of quoqued" defence.
4) You might want to look at the fire sale terms being given by the Russians selling their weapons to anyone who would buy them to raise hard currency because their economy had collapsed....
Oh. Now a real tu quoque.
... Of course, since Reagan was instrumental in collapsing the Soviet economy en route to winning the Cold War, I suppose the Soviet arms fire sale is also his fault.
Oh. A "Red Herring". Or "Straw Man". Take your pick; I can't "follow" HWSNBN's 'logic' here.
[from Barbara, I think]: Even today, the Iraqi nuclear and chemical weapons programs carried forward with the help of sophisticated American technology continue to haunt U.S. and United Nations officials as they struggle to root out elements of those programs that have survived the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War.
Sophisticated American technology? Such as?
You might want to instead take a closer look at the French, German and Russian companies who provided Iraq with the technology and supplies to build his chemical WMD.
Like the anthrax stocks?
Yes, we might. But "Secrecy Man" deleted major sections of the reports on this, presumably so his buddies aren't embarrassed.
... Whatever materials Saddam bought on the open market from the US didn't amount to a pimple on the backside of the WMD elephant.
Oh. Another tu quoque. And not so surprisingly, sans evidence or figures.
Those 500 Iraqi sarin and mustard gas shells we are filling a small warehouse with are Soviet sourced chemical artillery and mortar shells.
HWSNBN conveniently ignores this post.
[Barbara]: All along, the Iraq War was more valuable to the Bush Regime as a club with which to bash Democrats than as a strategy for whatever it was the invasion was supposed to accomplish. Indeed, in 2002 I sincerely believed the saber-rattling was only about the 2002 midterms -- I mean, actually invading Iraq made no bleeping sense -- and assumed the Bushies would settle down as soon as the votes were counted.
The United States government on a bipartisan basis, with the full throated support of the 2004 and likely 2008 Donkey presidential nominees, ramped up for war with the purpose of getting Elephants elected in 2002?
No. That's a "straw man".
My God, are you serious?
Yes. Which is infinitely better than being a troll.
Cheers,
If not, get some mental health counseling.
12:18 AM
Dan said...
ReplyDeleteBart, "NATIONAL REPORTING
[Nominated Finalist] Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas of Los Angeles Times
For documenting the clandestine effort of the U.S. government to supply money and weapons to Iraq in the 1980's and up to the weeks before the Gulf War." source: http://www.pulitzer.org/
Now you can make your pedantic argumentative "case" by focusing on inconsequential details and dismissing them as conspiracy theories, but this honour wasn't given for fiction.
:::chuckle:::
Like the awards and standing applause given to Rather and Mapes after they ran a a hatchet job story against another Bush based on what they were told were most likely forged documents from a known Bush political opponent?
Exactly why should I be impressed by Donkey media being given awards by fellow Donkey media for partisan political hatchet jobs.
I am sure the right wing loons who came up with the Hillary killed Vince Foster fairy tale probably also received awards from similarly inclined right wing loons.
Bush I was supplying arms to Saddam right up to Gulf War I. Deal with it.
This is a lie. What weapons? I sure didn't see any of them when we spent a month before withdrawing from Iraq providing security for the engineers blowing up Iraqi arms depots. Lots of Soviet arms, though.
Ché Pasa said...
ReplyDeleteHow come GHWB could not be bothered with the fate of the rebellions he encouraged? Was he daft?
No, according to the real politik libs here, George I made a "wise" decision not intervening in the internal affairs of Iraqis merely to stop the Butcher of Bagdad from filling mass graves.
Too bad his son is not as "wise," huh?
When, in the first sentence, the author includes this sophomoric inanity:
ReplyDelete"St. Ronald of Blessed Memory",
you just KNOW that what follows will be dreck.
Emotional, arrogant and fanciful dreck....
truth machine said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Hero, Osama bin Laden was not one of the Afghan jihadi the US was supporting against the Soviet invaders.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html
Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.
The fact that this slander is repeated in an op ed rant in one of the Brit yellow tabloids doesn't exactly help your credibility.
Show me the evidence.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Gulf War was BEFORE the Soviet Union collapsed.
Depends when you think the collapse of the Soviet Empire started.
The wall fell in 1989.
When I was deployed to Germany with the 3d Infantry Division just before going to Saudi, the Soviet divisions in Germany were restricted to barracks waiting for transport back to Russia.
HWSNBN remains wilfully ignorant:
ReplyDelete[PhD9]: Why am I suddenly reminded of the fact that Osama Bin Laden was a direct recipient of US/CIA aid back when he was a freedom fighter for Islam against those Godless Communists of the USSR?
Ah, the tin foil hat swamps are at full fever tonight!
"Argumentum ad hominem".
Hero, Osama bin Laden was not one of the Afghan jihadi the US was supporting against the Soviet invaders.
The situation is a bit more complicated. But the allegation is true in essence. HWSNBN needs to read "Overthrow" (link above) but won't. The Pakistani ISI insisted on controlling who got the money in Afghanistan, so the CIA probably didn't give much directly to anyone there (this arrangement was also useful to the CIA, who wanted to keep their hands "clean", but it meant the CIA had no control ... and no idea in many cases ... as to where the money -- and arms -- ended up). Read "Overthrow". Here's more for the lazy folks like HWSNBN. And more.
But defending bad choices of Republicans (and Democrats, but HWSNBN considers that "collateral damage") is all in a day's work for the troll HWSNBN....
Cheers,
HWSNBN explains "situational ethics":
ReplyDeleteal Qaeda was not even a dream in his (Osama's] sick little head yet.
Terrorist/insurgent against the gawdless commies: "Good guy".
Terrorist/insurgent against the good ol' U.S. of Effin' A: "Bad guy. Bad, bad guy."
Cheers,
what's a little gas among friends. I mean, "pooot!" and you would write a book?
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 10:43am:
ReplyDelete"The fact that this slander is repeated in an op ed rant in one of the Brit yellow tabloids doesn't exactly help your credibility."
Neither does claims that support your own contentions yet have no sources attributed to them.
"Show me the evidence."
You first. Precisely when did Bin Laden conceive and form the network "Al Qaeda" and upon what sources do you base this claim?
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Agricultural loan guarantees nine months before the Persian Gulf War built the Iraqi war machine? Give me a frigging break! This has to be one of the weakest Donkey conspiracy theories offered here.
Who said "conspiracy"? Ummm, let me look. Oh, yeah, it was the troll HWSNBN....
Do you have a pathological need for beatings?
A conspiracy is cooperation between two parties to achieve a common goal. Barbara is alleging cooperation between the US and Iraq to build Iraq's war machine. Thus, the term conspiracy.
Bart: Here are some clues for the clueless...
1) Saddam had already bought all the weapons he would use in the Persian Gulf War.
Oh. So that makes it "right" ... in hindsight.
No, the fact that Saddam could not have used agricultural loan guarantees provided 9 months before the war to buy weapons for that war makes Barbara's slander that the US built the Iraqi war machine impossible.
As I said, clues for the clueless.
2) The US gave out loan guarantees to sell US agriculture all over the world. Iraq was hardly singled out for this.
Oh. So it was just for the benefit of U.S. business interests. Damn the consequences. So that makes it "right".
Do try to keep up with Barbara's argument. She implied that we were singling out Iraq for special treatment. We were not.
If you are arguing that we should scrap ag subsidies, I completely agree.
3) The loan guarantees would only lower Saddam's interest rates somewhat. Banks were not exactly shy about loaning oil countries money.
Oh. The old "tu would have kind of quoqued" defence.
Translation: Arne has no real argument here so he is putting on airs and try to appear sophisticated.
Arne, do you work in academia where this sort of thing substitutes for substance?
Bart: Of course, since Reagan was instrumental in collapsing the Soviet economy en route to winning the Cold War, I suppose the Soviet arms fire sale is also his fault.
Oh. A "Red Herring". Or "Straw Man". Take your pick; I can't "follow" HWSNBN's 'logic' here.
Another clue for the clueless...
That last sentence is what is known as sarcasm aimed at the conspiracy theorists hereabouts.
[from Barbara, I think]: Even today, the Iraqi nuclear and chemical weapons programs carried forward with the help of sophisticated American technology continue to haunt U.S. and United Nations officials as they struggle to root out elements of those programs that have survived the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War.
Sophisticated American technology? Such as?
You might want to instead take a closer look at the French, German and Russian companies who provided Iraq with the technology and supplies to build his chemical WMD.
Like the anthrax stocks?
At that time, standard anthrax biological samples were freely available across the world market for biomedical research. No one in the US provided Iraq with weaponized anthrax stockpiles.
... Whatever materials Saddam bought on the open market from the US didn't amount to a pimple on the backside of the WMD elephant.
Oh. Another tu quoque. And not so surprisingly, sans evidence or figures.
I do not need to prove a negative. If you want to argue that the Saddam acquired any significant WMD materials from US companies or from the US government, then present your evidence.
[Barbara]: All along, the Iraq War was more valuable to the Bush Regime as a club with which to bash Democrats than as a strategy for whatever it was the invasion was supposed to accomplish. Indeed, in 2002 I sincerely believed the saber-rattling was only about the 2002 midterms -- I mean, actually invading Iraq made no bleeping sense -- and assumed the Bushies would settle down as soon as the votes were counted.
Bart: The United States government on a bipartisan basis, with the full throated support of the 2004 and likely 2008 Donkey presidential nominees, ramped up for war with the purpose of getting Elephants elected in 2002?
No. That's a "straw man".
Remedial Class: A straw man is a rebuttal by offering an argument which the proponent did not offer and then knocking it down.
I am rebutting Barbara's argument that we went to war in Iraq to get Elephants elected in 2002 by noting the facts absent in her paragraph - bipartisan support for the war - which make her argument ridiculous on its face.
Folks, get ready for the usual half dozen or so responses which usually follow a single one of my posts making Arne look silly.
Enjoy. I have to get to work.
HWSNBN has "Eyes Wide Shut":
ReplyDelete[From Truth Machine]:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html
[Truth Machine]: Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.
The fact that this slander is repeated in an op ed rant in one of the Brit yellow tabloids doesn't exactly help your credibility.
The Guardian is hardly one of the "yellow tabloids". That would be the likes of "The Sun" and "The Star". HWSNBN is clueless about the taxonomy of British journalism. So this is the lesser offence of "attempted argumentum ad hominem.
Show me the evidence.
HWSNBN thinks that links aren't evidence. In his shriveled cranium, "evidence" consists of "argument by repeated assertion" committed by the likes of HWSNBN.
vermontracoon:
ReplyDeleteI'm just a curious little woodland omnivore;...
Don't you mean "catfoodivore"? That woudl be our experience.....
Cheers,
Bart said:
ReplyDeleteExactly why should I be impressed by Donkey media being given awards by fellow Donkey media for partisan political hatchet jobs.
I am sure the right wing loons who came up with the Hillary killed Vince Foster fairy tale probably also received awards from similarly inclined right wing loons.
With a brush stroke he dismisses the Pulitzer prize. Nice. Please find a prize winner or finalist whose story was found to be false, or had committed some journalistic broach before winning.
Rather didn't get a pulitzer for the infamous document story on Bush's AWOL in the TANG.
And comparing Rather's story to the Foster fabrication is not reasonable. The secretary who originally typed those documents Rather had unverified copies of verified the contents were spot on, whether the documents were originals or not.
BTW, this "donkey" media you refer to sure does a shitty job of promoting democrats. What with right wing guests far outnumbering left wing guests on the Sunday morning shows, and a whole major news network devoted to Republicans while the others have no such preference for Democrats. The donkey in question has giant ears, tusks and a very long snout. Looks, quacks and smells like a duck...
Anyway, Waas has unbroached integrity and you'll have to do a lot better job than this to dismiss the story he found, based on classified documents leaked from the period.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Who said "conspiracy"? Ummm, let me look. Oh, yeah, it was the troll HWSNBN....
Do you have a pathological need for beatings?
HWSNBN seems to have a "pathological need to conduct beatings". Someone ought to check on his mother, dontcha think?
But fortunately, HWSNBN's idea of "beatings" seems to derive from the works of Miguel de Cervantes.....
A conspiracy is cooperation between two parties to achieve a common goal. Barbara is alleging cooperation between the US and Iraq to build Iraq's war machine. Thus, the term conspiracy.
ROFLMAO. Now HWSNBN takes his cue from C.L. Dodgson....
[Bart]: Here are some clues for the clueless...
[Bart]: 1) Saddam had already bought all the weapons he would use in the Persian Gulf War.
[Arne]: Oh. So that makes it "right" ... in hindsight.
No, the fact that Saddam could not have used agricultural loan guarantees provided 9 months before the war to buy weapons for that war makes Barbara's slander that the US built the Iraqi war machine impossible.
The U.S. aid was continuing throughout the Iran/Iraq war. The agricultural loan issue came up at the end, when some people started balking at giving Saddam help when he was engaging in brutal tactics.
As I said, clues for the clueless.
Indeed. HWSNBN is clueless as to who the clueless one is, though.
[Bart]: 2) The US gave out loan guarantees to sell US agriculture all over the world. Iraq was hardly singled out for this.
[Arne]: Oh. So it was just for the benefit of U.S. business interests. Damn the consequences. So that makes it "right".
Do try to keep up with Barbara's argument. She implied that we were singling out Iraq for special treatment. We were not.
Oh, did she? Where? If anything, she was talking about singling out Saddam for unfavourable treatment but the White House refused to say "Baaaad boy, Saddam" (Barbara: "... the White House squelched any reprisals or sanctions against Saddam"). Nonetheless, my point stands.
If you are arguing that we should scrap ag subsidies, I completely agree.
That's irrelevant here.
[Bart]: 3) The loan guarantees would only lower Saddam's interest rates somewhat. Banks were not exactly shy about loaning oil countries money.
[Arne]: Oh. The old "tu would have kind of quoqued" defence.
Translation: Arne has no real argument here so he is putting on airs and try to appear sophisticated.
Nope. Real translation: HWSNBN still has nary a clue.
Arne, do you work in academia where this sort of thing substitutes for substance?
I really don't know what HWSNBN is attempting here (perhaps "argumentum ad hominem"). Pretty damn lame, though.
[Bart]: Of course, since Reagan was instrumental in collapsing the Soviet economy en route to winning the Cold War, I suppose the Soviet arms fire sale is also his fault.
[Arne]: Oh. A "Red Herring". Or "Straw Man". Take your pick; I can't "follow" HWSNBN's 'logic' here.
Another clue for the clueless...
That last sentence is what is known as sarcasm aimed at the conspiracy theorists hereabouts.
Ummm, like I pointed out above, the only one who's said "conspiracy" here is HWSNBN. Nonetheless, his "argument" here is pretty much what I said it was.
[from Barbara, I think]: Even today, the Iraqi nuclear and chemical weapons programs carried forward with the help of sophisticated American technology continue to haunt U.S. and United Nations officials as they struggle to root out elements of those programs that have survived the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War.
[Bart]: Sophisticated American technology? Such as?
[Bart]: You might want to instead take a closer look at the French, German and Russian companies who provided Iraq with the technology and supplies to build his chemical WMD.
[Arne]: Like the anthrax stocks?
At that time, standard anthrax biological samples were freely available across the world market for biomedical research. No one in the US provided Iraq with weaponized anthrax stockpiles.
We gave Saddam 21 strains, probably including "the virulent Ames strain". Weaponisation consists more of preparing a suitably virulent strain for easy dispersal of the spores (anti-clumping treatment, etc.).
[Bart]: ... Whatever materials Saddam bought on the open market from the US didn't amount to a pimple on the backside of the WMD elephant.
[Arne]: Oh. Another tu quoque. And not so surprisingly, sans evidence or figures.
I do not need to prove a negative. If you want to argue that the Saddam acquired any significant WMD materials from US companies or from the US government, then present your evidence.
The gummint deleted the list from their report.
But HWSNBN also snips and ignores my link to the report of the intelligence agent.
[Barbara]: All along, the Iraq War was more valuable to the Bush Regime as a club with which to bash Democrats than as a strategy for whatever it was the invasion was supposed to accomplish. Indeed, in 2002 I sincerely believed the saber-rattling was only about the 2002 midterms -- I mean, actually invading Iraq made no bleeping sense -- and assumed the Bushies would settle down as soon as the votes were counted.
[Bart]: The United States government on a bipartisan basis, with the full throated support of the 2004 and likely 2008 Donkey presidential nominees, ramped up for war with the purpose of getting Elephants elected in 2002?
[Arne]: No. That's a "straw man".
Remedial Class: A straw man is a rebuttal by offering an argument which the proponent did not offer and then knocking it down.
Yep. And this is what HWSNBN put up here. Barbara made no claim that the Democrats voted for the war to help the Republicans (nor did they).
I am rebutting Barbara's argument that we went to war in Iraq to get Elephants elected in 2002 by noting the facts absent in her paragraph - bipartisan support for the war - which make her argument ridiculous on its face.
HWSNBN ignores the fact that the Democrats could (and did) have other reasons for voting for the threat of war (fact that needs to be pointed out: Congress at no time voted for the war). But one of the primary objectives of the Republicans in pursuing the war seems to have been political advantage (a tactic they keep pursuing).
Folks, get ready for the usual half dozen or so responses which usually follow a single one of my posts making Arne look silly.
I've already explained this to HWSNBN (to no effect, apparently). When HWSNBN limits his errors to a single one per post, I will be able to keep my refutations of his nonsense to a single short post.
Cheers,
Donkey media
ReplyDeleteYes. The mainstream media, owned by giant corporations such as publicly-traded defense contractor GE, are controlled by the Democrats. Somehow, their politics are opposed 180 degrees from what would be a sound business plan for a defense contractor. Please.
From Barbara O'Brien at 12:01PM:
ReplyDelete"Also, I have been advised that Reagan didn't formally veto the Prevention of Genocide Act. Instead, he (or whoever was calling the shots in the White House at the time) arranged for it to die in the House."
Granted, but I believe your primary point remains intact: the Reagan Administration, by virtue of this move, gave at least tacit acceptance (if not approval) of the Hussein regime's actions.
There was an Army War College report on the "gassing of the Kurds". It stated that from the evidence, the deaths were due to FAEs from Iran.
ReplyDeleteI have not heard this repeated anywhere, at any time.
FAEs are Fuel Air Explosives that collapse the lungs.
This was not touted all over becuae of the need of politicos to forment war.
Maude