On Friday, the Senate rejected a bill proposed by Rick Santorum to take a harder line against Iran by, among other things, funding Iranian groups devoted to regime change, significantly increasing punishments for companies which do business in Iran, and requiring the President to determine if such companies should be banned altogether from U.S. markets. The Bush administration opposed this legislation (likely because it committed the sin of Congressional "interference" in presidential foreign policy decision-making). And all but four Democrats voted against the hard-line Santorum bill. Joe Lieberman was one of the four Democrats to vote in favor of it.
This effort by Santorum (and Lieberman) to push the administration into a more aggressive posture against Iran preceded by one day this story in The Washington Post, which revealed that in 2003, Iran attempted to engage the U.S. in comprehensive negotiations to resolve all significant disputes between the two countries, including Iran's nuclear activities and its position on Israel. The Bush administration flatly refused the offer to negotiate, and even attacked Switzerland for agreeing to pass along the Iranian offer and vouch for its authenticity.
Just as was true with Iraq, most hard-line Iran war agitators are completely uninterested in inducing Iran to disarm. What they really crave is a change of government as soon as possible, something which is attainable most effectively by war. They don't want to pursue diplomatic measures that could result in a cessation of Iran's nuclear activities because a non-nuclear Iran with no regime change does not even remotely satisfy their goals. Anything less than forcible regime change will be perceived by them as dangerous "appeasement." Exactly as they viewed the first Gulf War, achieving concrete goals while failing to use our military to get rid of governments we dislike is weak and misguided. Government-changing war is the only solution that works.
Does anyone doubt on which side of this Iran debate Joe Lieberman will fall? He did not become one of the most vigorous supporters of the Iraq war because he has unique views about Iraq. He supported that war -- and still does -- because he subscribes almost completely to the neoconservative world-view that the Middle East must be re-made and re-created in our image, using as much military force as necessary, in order to rid that region of anti-Israeli and/or anti-U.S. governments and replaced with more compliant ones. Here is what Lieberman told then FOX News analyst Tony Snow back in 2003:
SNOW: Do you believe Iran is ripe for a regime change?
LIEBERMAN: Well, yes. I mean, I think it would be in the interest of the world, and most particularly of the Iranian people, to have a regime change in Iran.
I'm not suggesting military action by us, but Tom Friedman of The New York Times, I believe, said recently -- or a while ago that there's no nation in the world where the government is more anti- American and the people are more pro-American than Iran, and that's the equation we have to flip.
Lieberman's foreign policy views compel support for war in Iran every bit as much as they compelled support for the Iraq invasion. That's because, as much as any other national politician in either party, Lieberman embraces neoconservatism at its core, and is one of the leading advocates of its principles.
One of the most absurd arguments currently being circulated is that there is something misguided or even unethical about supporting a primary challenge to Lieberman. These complaints often include the supremely ironic accusation there is even something anti-democratic about the primary challenge, because it somehow signifies that diversity of opinion is prohibited and dissent punished. But as Roger Ailes points out: "Seems to me that having a pro-war candidate and an anti-war candidate running against each other within a party is about accepting diversity of opinion."
Iran has been lurking on the political agenda for some time and -- in a sure sign of things to come -- there have been outbursts of frenzied media coverage in short segments here and there. It is hard to imagine that Iran won't play a very significant, if not dominant, role in the lead-up to the 2006 elections. The warrior/appeaser dichotomy has worked wonders for Karl Rove in two straight national elections and it seems clear that he intends to prominently feature it again. Whether we should militarily attack Iran is a debate that, one way or the other, this country is going to have.
Joe Lieberman is a neoconservative whose foreign policy philosophy is inevitably going to lead him to support whatever hard-line policies against Iran which this administration wants, including a military attack. To the extent Lieberman is willing to deviate at all from the administration's Iran policy, he will likely be more hard-line than they are, just as was the case with the Santorum legislation.
It would be incredibly irresponsible for the Democrats not to have an all-out debate about whether they want to be represented in the Senate by someone whose foreign policy views are more or less identical to the most militaristic ideologues in the administration. Contrary to the conventional wisdom that the primary challenge against Lieberman is motivated almost exclusively by his support for the Iraq war (an obviously false claim given that numerous Democrats who supported the war are still supported by most Democrats), Lieberman's neoconservative world-view is squarely at odds with the views of most Democrats (and most Americans), and that, among other things, is what is at issue in his primary challenge.
It is highly revealing that those who view the Connecticut primary challenge as being some sort of anti-democratic affront -- such as those geniuses at The New Republic for whom the only more important goal than Middle Eastern wars is Lieberman's re-election -- do not attack the specific views of Ned Lamont, but instead attack the existence of the democratic contest itself. As was true with their advocacy of the invasion of Iraq, neoconservatives don't want to win a debate over whether further war-mongering, this time in Iran, makes sense. They once again want to squelch meaningful debate entirely, even if it means advancing that blatantly inane claim that a primary challenge to a highly controversial Senator with extremist foreign policy views is inappropriate and even anti-democratic.
The one lesson which I believe Americans (if not the national media) have learned from the Iraq debacle is that we cannot engage in a military action again of that significance without having a real debate and without engaging in intense skepticism over claims made by the government. Joe Lieberman is clearly going to advocate the hardest line possible against Iran. Few things are more constructive than a democratic election where that view gets openly debated and then resolved by voters. That is how our country is supposed to work.
Iran attempted to engage the U.S. in comprehensive negotiations to resolve the disputes between the two countries, including Iran's nuclear activities and its position on Israel. The Bush administraion flatly refused the offer to negotiate, and even attacked Switzerland for agreeing to pass along the offer and vouch for its authenticity.
ReplyDeleteGraham Allison talked about that in Nuclear Terrorism, which I would highly recommend. Reading the book, one is struck by how poorly the administration has engaged the issue of nuclear terrorism, yet Republicans have managed to beat Democrats over the head with the meme that they are soft on national security. The book gives ample ammunition to refute that perception.
I think war with Iran may be inevitable at this point. If it's not guaranteed yet, it seems like it will be soon. The powers that be seem to have made up their minds.
ReplyDeleteEverything I've read indicates that any military action against Iran will end in disaster.
"where the government is more anti- American and the people are more pro-American than Iran, and that's the equation we have to flip"
ReplyDeleteA 'war' like we've had in Iraq would certainly FLIP that situation. We now have in Iraq a very pro-US government (stooges) and a very anti-US population. The Iraqi people were not strongly pro-American before the invasion but certainly welcomed the removal of Hussein thinking we would be more competent in carrying out a transition and not randomly killing their people.
In any event, given the vitriolic rhetoric towards Iran from the US government over the past 5+ years and seeing what our actions have meant in Iraq, it is a very contentious argument that the Iranians are still pro-American. The same could have been said about Reagan's words regarding the Soviet Union: with Star Wars, the "evil empire" rhetoric, and "we begin bombing in five minutes," we set back political change in the Soviet Union a couple of years as the pro-American people and a softening government stance retrenched.
Glenn, you can't possibly be that naive and down right stupid to believe the Iranians wanted to give up nuclear weapons in 2003 if only we would talk to them, and that failing talking to them in 2003 is what made them go down the their current hell bent insane path of world destruction through the Iranian bomb.
ReplyDeleteIf you are that naive and stupid then there is truly no hope for you and your followers.
Says the "Dog"
The entire effort at demonizing Iran has been a lesson in how the press plays into the hands of the neoconservatives and Israel's Likudniks. Or is it that it's a lesson in how much the press loves to bend over to every anti-Islamic propaganda that comes its way. The entire sad story can be read at Juan Cole's site, Informed Comment.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most insidious slander against Iran is that Ahmadinajad called for "wiping Israel off the map." This mistranslation has now become a commp0lace in western news stories about Iran every time they run a story.
"the Dog"
ReplyDeleteWell, from a cost-efficency position, if you really did want nuclear power why not just get the US to fund and build some reactors for you?
Again, Scott Ritter is vindicated.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, after Lieberman gets knocked off the grass roots has a perfect target in Diane Fienstein. She may not be a total neoconservative like Joe but her SUPPORT for Hayden was the last straw for many of us in California.
Glenn, your express my views on the CT primary, and primaries in general, exactly. A system meant to return incumbents to office for as long as they choose to run doesn't fit with the American ideal (as I see it) - a government by, for, and of the people. If CT voters believe Lamont will speak for them in the Senate, then by all means he should be there, seniority and committee chairmanships aside.
ReplyDeleteI've been baffled by the DSCC's actions and reported reactions regarding some of the primaries so far, which is why I started making contributions to specific candidates (including Lamont, tho I don't live in CT) and to Dean's DNC.
Birdman, the last I heard (on "To the Point"), Ritter was headed to Iran for a book. He said he'd gotten agreement from the Iranian gov't that there would be no interference with his work and he'd be allowed to report on exactly what he found. Has there been any news from him?
ReplyDeleteWell, from a cost-efficency position, if you really did want nuclear power why not just get the US to fund and build some reactors for you?
ReplyDeleteThat would not have been allowed under the NPT.
If Iran had only refused to join the treaty for years, like India did, then they would be able to get whatever nuclear technology they liked from anyone willing to sell it to them.
It just doesn't pay off to be a good international citizen, I guess.
Well I meant threaten to start to develop them, then get free reactors instead. From the get-go, begin nuclear development solely to force the Americans to make you free reactors.
ReplyDeletefrom a cost-efficency position, if you really did want nuclear power why not just get the US to fund and build some reactors for you?
ReplyDeleteLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look at the mess the US has created in Iraq and the way that infrastructure has been mismanaged!
Look at the way private contractors rip off the US Federal Government!
You think anyone in their right mind would assume the US and its private contractors would a "cost efficient" option? ...and that is not to mention whether the US would be competent or honest enough to do the job right.
"there's no nation in the world where the government is more anti- American and the people are more pro-American than Iran, and that's the equation we have to flip."
ReplyDeleteWTF???
Flipping the equation would make Iran's government friendly to America, and their people anti-American.
THAT'S WHAT LIEBERMAN WANTS?
Another old-school Cuba?
Sheesh. CT voters - PLEASE get rid of this jackass.
Responding to various things:
ReplyDeleteConcerning the US government's refusal to respond to Iranian overtures in 2003, apart from the Bush regime's overriding committment to regime change', there was also the abiding desire to (further) punish the Iranians for the Tehran embassy takeover/hostage crisis.
As Disenchanted Dave posts, there does seem a broad concensus supporting some kind of military action against Iran -- including many Democrats in congress as well as Republicans (sadly, in fact, some Democrats are positioning theselves to the right of the Republicans on this issue -- a la Lieberman -- partly as a strategy to diffuse the 'weak on security' meme) The second- most important task for the antiwar movement right now is to mobilize against US war plans against Iran (the first being, of course, immediate and complete withdrawal from Iraq).
I recommend folks check out the blog of our friend 'The Dog'. He (I presume gender here) spends a great deal of space describing his heroic battles against "the Fanatical Left Wing Blog of Glen Greenwald". You know the Dawg has had way too much Kool-Aid if he thinks Unclaimed Territory is either 'fanatical' or 'left wing'. A propos of his statement here, he would have us forget that the Iranian initiative in 2003 was undertaken by the reformist regime then in power. I'd like to remind him that there is only one regime currently threatening the world with nuclear war, and who can be fairly said to be on a "hell bent insane path of world destruction." You know, it's those tactical-nuke-enchanted folks in D.C. Go put more Kool-Aid in your dish, dog.
Concerning kyle's point about 'cost-efficiency', and for that mater, all those who want Iran to agree to having nuclear fuel provided by other countries, why on earth would any state with any regard for its independence or sovereignty let itself be held hostage in this way? If Iran were to give way on the issue of its rights under the NPT to a nuclear power industry, it would (along with the disasterous US complicity with India's nuclear weapons program) be a likely fatal blow to the already-weakened treaty.
Finally, with regard to the despicable Lieberman, it shames me deeply to have that creature be (allegedly) representing me in the Senate. I hope he leaves the Democratic Party ASAP, and if he can't fess up to his basic unity with the Republicans, he can form the (open and official!) American Likud Party.
Oh, everybody, for one last farewell to our concern troll 'The Dog' -- Say it Loud, Moonbat and Proud!
"Everything I've read indicates that any military action against Iran will end in disaster."
ReplyDeleteTry expanding your comic book collection.
I believe debate is a wonderful thing. We should all contribute our point / counter-point arguments on issues of importance...Democrats, Republicans, Independents, alike.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, for America "debate" is not the method that is carrying the day.
The Republican Party (Karl Rove as its orchestrator) has learned an important truth. The country is divided into roughly equal parts of left, right and middle.
The Right is able to marshall its forces into one coherent voting block by invoking certain triggers (gay marriage, God, liberal, un-patriotic, raise taxes, cut and run, gun takeaway, etc.) that consistently bring out the Right-wingers to march in lock-step against the Left throughout the election process.
Rove's approach, calculated to drive voter apathy in the non-believer while it acts as a red meat to the Party faithful, is a perfect strategy for getting a candidate elected.
It doesn't matter to Karl Rove that 66% of the public loathes what the Republican Party stands for...his job is to market the turd that he carries around in his four-color box. His job is to turn out all thirty or thirty-five percent of the people that the Republican Party owns. In the process, he is happy if he attracts some of the middle or if not attract that he, at least, infects the Independents with a sense of apathy that causes them to stay home on election day.
Rove is a genius at what he does.
The Middle (Independents) are rudderless without an obvious or apparent leader and few thought-out, defined positions on most matters...just not fully Left, nor fully Right...an unreliable and uncertain partner in most elections, one without strong, stearable partisan views but one that can help or hurt on specific, well defined (magnet) issues. Rove would rather poison these people on the process and not take a chance on winning their support to the Republicans.
The Left (Democrats) being democratic go for the "big tent" approach. On the surface, everyone is welcome in the Party. Each is welcome to his or her own ideas as long as they fit into the loose framework of democratic and Democratic ideals. Consequently, the Party is a Party of many different and unique people / ideas.
Much debate transpires within the Democratic ranks...many ideas are exercised. Some are rejected by the masses; others evolve and are embraced as ideals / goals of the Party at large.
Unfortunately, the ideas, ideals, and goals of the Democratic Party are not often structured into "lock-step" marching orders that direct the Party soldiers throughout the campaign (and in today's world the entirety of the reign of a President like George W. Bush, from the day he first announced throughout the entire reign, it is all the campaign). Democrats have few one or two word phrases that are code-word triggers for Party members to act in a way-certain.
Consequently, the Democratic Party appraoches election day with a variety of ideas for voters to comtemplate but no clear-cut instructions on voting. The Democrats have few "code words" that evoke a level of passion that equals millions of radical evangelicals listening-in on thousands of Sunday morning gay-bashing sermons.
Democratic candidates are usually bright, engaging to talk with, and learned in their professions. If elected, most can and will do an intelligent and beneficial job for our citizens, our society and the world. But the problem is that bright, energetic people don't get elected.
The perfectly rounded and tapered (if somewhat smelly) candidate, a product of better marketing strategies too often prevails. When you break it down on post-election morning, you can only marvel and exclaim...Ol' Karl, if nothing, is one hell of a marketing manager.
Thoughtful debate, the Party better field a marketing team with the strength and the mandate to out-Rove, Rove. Else the 2006 and probably the 2008 elections will come under Rove's spell and will be lost.
As to Steve's comment, "it's just that circumstances with respect to Iran have changed in that time" seems to be the true kicker. Exactly. The measure means something somewhat different now, right? Though I do welcome a reply from GG on the point.
ReplyDeleteAs to Dave, I fear this "inevitable" thing. Why is it "inevitable?" Because the Congress etc. lets it be. This is akin, as others have noted, to Iraq being "inevitable." Thus, the bar is moved. The "reasonable" thing to do ala Kerry et. al. is to give Bush authority with strings (meaningless in practice, but hey, who knew he would cheat? what an outrage! blah blah).
After all, it is "inevitable" and all. This is not really a knock on Dave, but of the negative side of that meme. I saw it in baseball lately -- inevitable we will lose, so let's play not to lose too badly, etc. It is simply self-defeating.
This blog is about stopping the "inevitable" in part, right?
So Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson are now neocons because they supported Israel's right to exist, and hoped a democracy there would inspire the region. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteShorter Don Surber:
ReplyDeleteEither you are a neo-con or an anti-Semite.
By this logic, the vast majority of Jews in this country are anti-Semites who don’t support the right of Israel to exist.
Nice try, Don, but the neo-cons are a very small part of the Jewish community in this country, most of whom are far too intelligent to start advocating policies that would be detrimental to not only the U.S. but Israel.
But thanks for the wingnut perspective.
In the real world advocating the invasion of Iran (and Syria etc. etc. etc.) has nothing to do with support for Israel. Most Jews, both here and in Israel, think that’s nuts and would do lots more harm than good.
birdman:
ReplyDeleteAnyway, after Lieberman gets knocked off the grass roots has a perfect target in Diane Fienstein. She may not be a total neoconservative like Joe but her SUPPORT for Hayden was the last straw for many of us in California.
By "many" you mean the 14% who voted against her in the election we already had last week? Or are you looking forward to kicking her out in 2012, assuming we still have elections by then?
You so smart! I go all night with you if you buy me Honda.
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From donsurber:
ReplyDeleteHarry Truman, Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson [...] supported Israel's right to exist, and hoped a democracy there would inspire the region.
I would suggest that they supported Israel's right to exist because it served US interests to do so, and if you think that 'encouraging democracy in the region' had anything to do with that, then you've bought into the Polyanna version of US history.
Further, if you can accept Israel's system as 'democratic', well, I suppose it is, in a Jim Crow kind of way, within Israel itself. Within the Occupied Territories, then the model is apartheid bantustans.
Yes sir, let's promote us some democracy in the region -- as long as you're not Arab in Haifa, or vote the wrong way in Palestine. Then, well, I guess we don't have too much use for democracy, now do we?
shooter242,
ReplyDeleteDo you base your assertion that the Iranian regime is dishonest because it concealed aspects of its nuclear program from the IAEA more than a decade ago? Or do you make your assertion because you believe, in the absence of evidence from the IAEA, the Iran is actively pursuing a nuclear weapons program? If the latter, then clearly the Iranians are in the impossible position of proving the negative, and we are back to the position of denying the Iranians their rights under the NPT.
If you are going to hold Iran to such stringent standards, then you should also hold the US to similarly stringent standards, starting with demanding that the US allow the IAEA unfettered rights of intrusive inspections of all US nuclear sites. Or maybe we should hope for some foreign army to effect regime change in Washington?
'Appeasement' is a right-wing buzz word meant to short-circuit debate on the merits of the case. Why should any sovereign country 'appease' the US while it threatens to reduce its cities and people to radioactive ash?
Glen Tomkins said...
ReplyDeleteThe Zell Miller Democrat of the Year Award
Please keep kicking out senators and representatives like Lieberman and Miller. They are welcome in our big tent majority.
Lieberman is one of the last old time New Deal Donkeys who believe in liberal domestic policies and a vigorous internationalism where the party is not afraid of waging war when need be.
When the New Left party runs out the old New Deal majority coalition, it is addition by subtraction for the Elephants.
Given that set of circumstances, how can anything other than regime change be effective? How can the alternative be anything but appeasement?
ReplyDeleteSomehow we managed to struggle along for more than forty years of the Cold War, not trusting the Soviets yet not attempting "regime change" in the Soviet Union, and it worked out. In fact, our biggest screwups in the Cold War tended to be when we got impatient and tried military intervention.
"Joe Lieberman is clearly going to advocate the hardest line possible against Iran. Few things are more constructive than a democratic election where that view gets openly debated and then resolved by voters. That is how our country is supposed to work."
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
I hope that your laudible support for electoral challenges to centrist/conservative Democrats extends also to *third-party* challenges of centrist/conservative Democrats. At the moment, progressive third-party voices are being generally shut out of most of the so-called "progressive netroots"... most egregiously at the site of your friend and colleague, Markos.
Unless there's a D after the name of the candidate in question, Markos would greatly contest what you yourself have just written above: that few things are more constructive than a democratic election where pro-war views get openly debated and then resolved by voters. Many of us have tried to convey these very thoughts to Markos on his very influential blog, and we've been exiled or banned for the trouble. But he respects you, Glenn. Perhaps he would listen to you.
Many thanks, Glenn,
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Major,
ReplyDeleteI don't know what you're talking about. We don't want to get rid of Russ Feingold. Now, if you're really talking about Lieberman, if he's your idea of 'decent' then I'm glad I'm indecent.
As to your slander of Ward Churchill, his point was that Americans' hands are not clean, and when we have, as a society, enabled and perpetated so much suffering around the world, well then, payback -- or was it blowback? -- is a bitch.
I hope that your laudable support for electoral challenges to centrist/conservative Democrats extends also to *third-party* challenges of centrist/conservative Democrats.
ReplyDeleteUm, I hate to bust your bubble here, Patrick, but Holy Joe just may be that “third-party” challenge. That’s what those Unity 08 folks are saying, anyway. He’s their kind of guy and they’re saying he should start gathering signatures and running on their “Unity” ticket.
That’s the rumor going around. It may have been started by the Bull Moose, and it may be more Bull than Moose, but there you have it.
At the moment, progressive third-party voices are being generally shut out of most of the so-called "progressive netroots"... most egregiously at the site of your friend and colleague, Markos.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm all for expanding the two-party system into a genuinely multi-party system. But without some changes in the way we run elections -- instant runoffs, doing away with the electoral college, etc. -- as a practical matter third party candidates rarely have a realistic hope of getting elected. Instead, they split the vote and hand the election to the worst choice.
A Democratic majority in Congress would take a lot of power away from Republicans and should put some limits on Bush's usurpation of power. I think of electing Democrats in this November's mid-term as a kind of political first aid. It's not a cure, but it would make the patient's condition more stable. Working for third-party campaigns at this point, no matter how worthy the candidate, is working to maintain a Republican majority.
Also, even if there were a competitive third party, until there is substantial campaign reform that party would soon be as corrupted as the other two. Mass media election campaigns are so expensive that the process is self-corrupting.
Like it or not, that's now it is.
Great post, Glenn.
ReplyDelete"Personally, I'm all for expanding the two-party system into a genuinely multi-party system. But without some changes in the way we run elections -- instant runoffs, doing away with the electoral college, etc. -- as a practical matter third party candidates rarely have a realistic hope of getting elected. Instead, they split the vote and hand the election to the worst choice."
ReplyDeleteAnd thus the call for "more, not less, democratic debate," becomes, simply, a call for "less democratic debate."
We self-described progressives sure seem to be all for a "democratic election where (a pro-war) view gets openly debated and then resolved by voters," until it's our own personal candidate that's getting challenged, at which point we waste no time quashing such elections and hushing such debates. It doesn't speak very highly of our commitment to the democratic principle we'd espoused just one sentence previous.
Meantime, lemme urge all Democrats who fear the spoiler dilemma to join me in fighting for Instant Runoff Voting (as b o'b mentioned above).
You can do so by joining the Center for Voting and Democracy (www.fairvote.org).
Thusfar, with certain laudible exceptions, the Democratic Party has usually fought against Instant Ruonff Voting, thus cursing well-meaning Dems with the spoiler issue b 'ob laments. We can change it, if only the Democratic Party were willing.
Please help.
Again, it's www.fairvote.org
Thanks,
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
For cynic:
ReplyDeleteI don't think many of the people who support Bush's Middle East policies are the ones reading the stuff Bart writes.
Below is an example of the kind of thing I keep getting in emails, sent on to me by a friend, to whom it was sent, and so it goes.....Many of these people are Jewish. They are not all religious, or even pro-Israel, or pro-Likud, or nutty neocons. They are Democrats mostly who are fairly rational and gentle people, at least the ones I know, but if you push that "Hitler" button, they re-act with pure raw emotion.
Dear (Name of Recipient).
But if the anti war movement wins, we are in for it, no more protection.
see below, the read should take about 5 minutes of your life, and may
save it, as an American, and especially if you do not happen to be
muslim...
This is a very interesting read - but long. Please hang in there for
some good info.
I can't begin to tell you how important this message is as to the
"WHY" we, the Citizens of the United States, should pursue the fight
against the radical Islamic Wahhabi movement by the Jihadists around
the World.
This reminder in history tells us how our lives could be irrevocably
changed had we fallen to the Nazis and the Imperial Forces
of Japan.
Yeah, I know. This is old stuff but this document reviews
that which is revelatory to our future world.
Please take the time to read and think about what this means.
Thanks.
[Name of Sender]
////////////////////////////
*A California Lawyer's Perspective on Iraq War.*
Raymond S. Kraft is a writer and lawyer living in Northern
California.
Please consider passing along copies of this to students in high
schools,
colleges and universities as it contains information about the American
past
that is very meaningful TODAY - - history about America that very
likely
is completely unknown by them (and their instructors, too). By being
denied the facts and truth of our history, they are at a decided
disadvantage when it comes to reasoning and thinking through the
issues
of today. They are prime targets for misinformation campaigns beamed
at
enlisting them in causes and beliefs that are special interest agenda
driven .
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe
and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had
sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between
England and
America for food and war materials. Bushido Japan had overrun most of
Asia, beginning in 1928, killing
millions of civilians throughout China, and impressing millions more
as slave labor.
The US was in an isolationist, pacifist, mood, and most Americans
and Congress wanted nothing to do with the European war, or the Asian
war. Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and
in outrage, Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the
following day on Germany, which had not attacked us. It was a dicey
thing. We had few allies. France was not an ally, the Vichy government
of France aligned with its German occupiers. Germany was not an ally,
it was an enemy, and Hitler intended to set up a Thousand Year Reich
in Europe. Japan was not an ally, it was intent on owning and
controlling all of Asia. Japan and Germany had long-term ideas of
invading Canada and Mexico, and then the United States over the north
and south borders, after they had settled control of Asia and
Europe.
America's allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada,
Australia, and Russia, and that was about it. There were no other
countries of any size or military significance with the will and
ability to contribute much or anything to the effort to defeat
Hitler's Germany and Japan, and prevent the global dominance of
Nazism. And we had to send millions of tons of arms, munitions, and
war supplies to Russia, England, and the Canadians, Aussies, Irish,
and Scots, because none of them could produce all they needed for
themselves. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the
east, was already under the Nazi heel.
America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of
its military after WWI and throughout the depression, at the outbreak
of WWII there were army units training with broomsticks over their
shoulders because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted
on the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our
navy had just been sunk and damaged at Pearl Harbor.
Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of
$600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England that was the
property of Belgium and was given by Belgium to England to carry on
the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler - actually, Belgium
surrendered one day, because it was unable to oppose the German
invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day
anyway just to prove they could. Britain had been holding out for two
years already in the face of staggering shipping loses and the
near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was
saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the
mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that
could be dealt with later and turning his attention to Russia, at a
time when England was on the verge of collapse in the late summer of
1940.
Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two
years until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at
Germany. Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of
Stalingrad and Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly
civilians, but also more than a million soldiers. More than a
million.
Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus
his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis
would have won that war.
Had Hitler not made that mistake and invaded England in 1940 or
1941, instead, there would have been no England for the US and the
Brits to use as a staging ground to prepare an assault on Nazi Europe,
England would not have been able to run its North African campaign to
help take a little pressure off Russia while America geared up for
battle, and today Europe would very probably be run by the Nazis, the
Third Reich, and, isolated and without any allies (not even the
Brits), the US would very probably have had to cede Asia to the
Japanese, who were basically Nazis by another name then, and the world
we live in today would be very
different and much worse.
I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often
dicey things. And we are at another one.
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants
and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological,
or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are
prevented from doing so.
France, Germany, and Russia, have been selling them weapons technology
at least as recently as 2002, as have North Korea, Syria, and
Pakistan, paid for with billions of dollars Saddam Hussein skimmed
from the "Oil For Food" program administered by the UN with the
complicity of Kofi Annan and his son.
The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs
- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely
not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle
East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow
to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to
finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, purge the world of Jews. This is
what they say.
There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East - for the most
part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its
Inquisition and its Reformation today, but it is not yet known which
will win - the Inquisition, or the Reformation.
If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control
the Middle East, and the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian
economies, the techno-industrial economies, will be at the mercy of
OPEC - not an
OPEC dominated by the well-educated and rational Saudis of today, but
an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.
You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You
want jobs? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope
the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation
wins.
If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims
who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and
live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th
century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will
eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will
emerge. We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to
fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al
Qaeda, the Islamic terrorist movements.
We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it nowhere. And we cannot do
it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle
now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq. Not in New York,
not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we did and are
doing two very important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was
directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has
been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is
a terrorist. Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is
responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and
two million
Iranians.
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with
Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing
bad guys there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or
anywhere else. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic,
peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the
rest of the Middle
East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in
the Middle East for as long as it is needed. The Euros could have
done this, but they didn't, and they won't. We now know that rather
than opposing the rise of the Jihad, the French, Germans, and Russians
were selling them arms - we have found more than a million tons of
weapons and munitions in Iraq. If Iraq was not a threat to anyone, why
did Saddam need a million tons of weapons? And Iraq was paying for
French, German, and Russian arms with money skimmed from the UN Oil
For Food Program (supervised by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and
his son) that was supposed to pay for food, medicine, and education,
for Iraqi children.
World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really
began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It
began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen
years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 - a 17
year war - and was followed by another decade of US occupation in
Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on
their own again . A 27 year war.
World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately
a full year's GDP - adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12
trillion dollars, WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in
action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action. [The Iraq war
has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what
9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which
is just over 1/2 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed on 9/11.]
But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have
been unimaginably greater - a world now dominated by German and
Japanese Nazism.
Americans have a short attention span, now, conditioned I suppose by
60 minute TV shows and 2-hour movies in which everything comes out
okay.!
The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and
sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will
be. If we do this thing in Iraq successfully, it is probable that
the Reformation will ultimately prevail. Many Muslims in the Middle
East hope it will. We will be there to support it. It has begun in
some countries, Libya, for instance. And Dubai. And Saudi Arabia.
If we fail, the Inquisition will probably prevail, and terrorism from
Islam will be with us for all the foreseeable future, because the
Inquisition, or Jihad, believes they are called by Allah to kill all
the Infidels, and that death in Jihad is glorious.
The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic
terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away on
its own. It will not go away if we ignore it. If the US can create a
reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in
the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize
and moderate the Middle East.
The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative
civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates.
The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending
war. And now, for the first time
ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless we
prevent them. Or somebody does. The Iraq war is expensive, and
uncertain, yes. But the consequences of not fighting it and winning it
will be horrifically greater.
We have four options -
1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons
(which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear
weapons is what Iran claims it is).
3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the
Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and
ultimately in America.
4. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the
Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad
has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe.
It will be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier
then. Yes, the Jihadis say that they look forward to an Islamic
America. If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your
children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the
Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today. We can
be defeatist peace-activists as anti-war types seem to be,
and concede, surrender, to the Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes
to win this war against them.
The history of the world is the history of civilizational
clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what
society and civilization should be like, and the most determined
always win. Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win.
The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them. In
the 20th century, it was Western democracy vs. communism, and
before that Western democracy vs. Nazism, and before that Western
democracy vs.
German Imperialism. Western democracy won, three times, but it
wasn't cheap, fun, nice, easy, or quick. Indeed, the wars against
German Imperialism (WWI), Nazi Imperialism (WWII), and communist
imperialism (the 40-year Cold War that included the Vietnam Battle,
commonly called the Vietnam War, but itself a major battle in a larger
war) covered almost the entire century.
The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between
Western Judeo/Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a
few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the
Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for
regional and global dominance and Jihad, or until Western Civilization
gives in to the Jihad. Senator John Kerry, in the debates and almost
daily, makes 3 scary claims:
1. We went to Iraq without enough troops. We went with the troops the
US military wanted. We went with the troop
levels General Tommy Franks asked for. We deposed Saddam in 30 days
with light casualties, much lighter than we expected. The real
problem in Iraq is that we are trying to be nice - we are trying to
fight minority of the population that is Jihadi, and trying to
avoid killing the large majority that is not. We could flatten
Fallujah in minutes with a flight of B52s, or seconds with one nuclear
cruise missile - but we don't. We're trying to do brain surgery, not
amputate
the patient's head. The Jihadis amputate heads.
2. We went to Iraq with too little planning. This is a specious
argument. It supposes that if we had just had "the
right plan" the war would have been easy, cheap, quick, and
clean. That is not an option. It is a guerrilla war against a
determined enemy, and no such war ever has been or ever will be easy,
cheap, quick, and clean. This is not TV.
3. We proved ourselves incapable of governing and providing
security. This too is a specious argument. It was never our intention
to govern and provide security. It was our intention from the
beginning to do just enough to enable the Iraqis to develop a
representative government and their own military and police forces to
provide their own security, and that is happening. The US and the
Brits and other countries there have trained over 100,000 Iraqi police
and military, now, and will have trained more than 200,000 by the end
of next year. We are in the process of transitioning operational
control for security back to Iraq. It will take time. It will not go
with no hitches. This is not TV.
Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach
too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the
young American mind.
The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall
came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the
19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting
Germany. World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year
occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. World
War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe
more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you
accept.
The US has taken a little more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The US took
more than 4,000 Killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the
first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism.
In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week for four years. Most of the
individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq
war has done so far.
But the stakes are at least as high . . . a world dominated
by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and
personal freedoms or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi
movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic
law).
I do not understand why the American Left does not grasp this. They
favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently
not for Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else. 300,000
Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem. The
US population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply
300,000 by twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000
American bodies in mass graves in America because of George Bush?
Would you hope for another country to help liberate America?
"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe, in
America. Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria,
Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need
peace activism the most?
The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil
rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad
wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human
rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who
oppose theliberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own
worst enemy. If the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism.
Everywhere the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. And American
Liberals just don't get it.
If you finished reading this....thank you so much....please pass on to
all you know so that more people will hopefully understand how important
our fight is.
I have to tell you Cynic, the thought of someone condemning anti-war people and identifying himself as part of the true Citizens of the United States, suggesting anti-war people are not "We the People" and patriotic Americans makes my blood boil.
But I think articles like this are how the wars in Iraq and Iran are "sold" to Jewish people, a group you would ordinarily expect to be on the side of the humane anti- pre-emptive war crowd.
And I think this is the kind of propaganda that puts Lieberman in office and keeps him there.
Meanwhile, I personally don't think Lieberman gives a damn about Israel or the Jewish religion. He's a phony through and through, a bought and paid for phony.
Main Entry: 1pho·ny
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): pho·ni·er ; -est
Variants: or pho·ney/'fO-ne/
Etymology: perhaps alteration of fawney gilded brass ring used in the fawney rig, a confidence game, from Irish fáinne ring, from Old Irish ánne -- more at ANUS
: not genuine or real: as a (1) : intended to deceive or mislead (2) : intended to defraud : COUNTERFEIT b : arousing suspicion : probably dishonest -something phony about the story- c : having no basis in fact : FICTITIOUS -phony publicity stories- d : FALSE , SHAM -a phony name- e : making a false show: as (1) : HYPOCRITICAL (2) : SPECIOUS -has a phony poetic elegance -- New Republic-
- pho·ni·ly/'fO-ni-le/ adverb
- pho·ni·ness/'fO-ne-n&s/ noun
Ha Ha about New Republic.
Well, wasn't it the late Senator Wayne Morse who spoke eloquently about the American electorate being the true arbiter of foreign policy? I think the American electorate, or at least the Connecticut electorate is about to pass jusdgement on our foreign policy. It's too bad the American media has its colletive head too far up its ass to see what is taking place. There's a story there that should be written about, for the rest of the country to assimilate.
ReplyDelete"Um, I hate to bust your bubble here, Patrick, but Holy Joe just may be that “third-party” challenge."
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of principle, I have no personal objection to Joe Lieberman running as a third-party candidate. I realize many Dems would consider it a crime for him to do so, because it would show great disloyalty to his party, but I think that party loyalty is greatly overvalued in our republic. I think our nation would be much better off if we all (voters and elected officials alike) cast our votes according to our consciences and principles, rather than according to our party affiliations.
That said, if Joe is indeed intent on breaking from the Dems, it seems as though he'd be demonstrating much more personal integrity if he were to do so *now* (as a matter of personal principle), rather than in August after losing the Democratic primary (at which point such a break would certainly seem to be a matter of expediency and power-retention).
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
TheRef said...
ReplyDelete"The Middle (Independents) are rudderless without an obvious or apparent leader and few thought-out, defined positions on most matters...just not fully Left, nor fully Right...an unreliable and uncertain partner in most elections, one without strong, stearable partisan views but one that can help or hurt on specific, well defined (magnet) issues. Rove would rather poison these people on the process and not take a chance on winning their support to the Republicans."
We are far from being rudderless. The fact that we don't agree on all issues with either party doesn't mean we don't have thought out defined positions. It does mean that neither party represents all of those issues for us. Which leads us constantly into the unenviable position of voting for the lesser of two evils. If that makes us unreliable in your viewpoint then so be it. When one of the two major parties, or a third party starts representing our views then I have no doubt that we can be as reliable a voter in support of our issues as either the far right or left.
And I would point out that neither of the two major parties represent a majority of the American people. The majority of voters are registered as independent. That should say something to both parties about their positions that they can't seem to attract a clear majority, but it obviously falls on deaf ears.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDelete"Here's the word folks, this is your big chance to demonstrate what your version of international relations can do. You are on the stage, the spotlight is on and you are able to strut your stuff diplomatically speaking."
No the spotlight is on the Bush admin and the Republican Congress that is in charge of the country. And we have already seen what a wonderful job they have done in Iraq, Afghanistan, and with the majority of the rest of the world.
Actually, I believe that a plurality--at most--of voters is independent; that is a far cry from being a majority.
ReplyDeleteBibblesnæð said...
ReplyDelete"Actually, I believe that a plurality--at most--of voters is independent; that is a far cry from being a majority."
I can go along with that. My intention being to express that there are more independents than either Democrats or Republicans. Obviously poorly expressed on my part. :-)
gl: "(The Middle) are far from being rudderless. The fact that we don't agree on all issues with either party doesn't mean we don't have thought out defined positions... When one of the two major parties, or a third party starts representing our views then I have no doubt that we can be as reliable a voter in support of our issues as either the far right or left."
ReplyDeletePlease clarify: what specific issues are currently unaddressed by both the Democrats and the Republicans that, in your opinion, speaks to the need for a third-party challenge from the center? Is there *truly* such a vast ideological gulf between our nation's two major parties that numerous "centrist" issues end up left unaddressed? Again, please be specific in listing them.
In the meantime, I can tell you as an American progressive that there are numerous progressive issues that the Democratic Party fails to stand for... thus necessitating my membership in a political party even *further* to the ideological left than the Democratic Party (the party which you consider to be the "far left" of the American political spectrum... if only that were true!). Those lefty issues somehow forgotten by our "far left" political party include, in no particular order:
1) Single-payer health care
2) Repeal of the USA PATRIOT Act
3) Repeal of Clinton's Welfare "Reform" bill
4) Repeal "No Child Left Behind"
5) Legalize gay marriage
6) Repeal NAFTA
7) Stop the FTAA
8) No capital punishment, no exceptions
9) End "Plan Colombia"
10) End the drug war
11) Immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan
12) Soveriegnty for the Palestinians
13) Institute electoral reforms like Instant Runoff Voting and proportional representation
14) Full-public financing of elections
15) Repeal "fast-track" presidential trade authority
16) Cut our nation's military budget in half
So there's some of mine.
I'm looking forward to hearing your centrist issues, and how they're unrepresented by our two major political parties.
Peace,
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Shooter242:
ReplyDeleteYour first reference was to Iran's resumption of uranium reprocessing and related centrifuge work which they had voluntarily suspended during the two years of negotiation with England, France and Germany. When it was clear that those negotiations were deadlocked, Iran resumed its work (allowed under the NPT, btw).
I do not have readily at hand the reports I've read concerning the reported contamination that has been cited. I will try to find the IAEA reports which detail their findings; my understanding is that what contamination has been found have been extremely minute quantities. I do not know that said evidence can credibly be clained to constitute prima facie evidence of a nuclear weapons program.
Your point concerning the supervision of the nuclear program being placed in the hands of Revolutionary Guards is not, for me, such a big deal. The source you quote does not seem to me to be the most disinterested (yet another exile, regime-change-friendly group so helpfully directing Washington to all those secret weapons labs -- haven't we heard all this before?).
I'm not sure what 'context' I would have found at The Wall Street Journal. Your link ended up linking to an editorial attacking Murtha and said nothing about Iran. As to the questions about the presence of 36% enriched uranium or polonium-210, again I'll try to find the relevant IAEA documents. As to the 'thousands' of magnets, any industrial enrichment programs must have thousands of centrifuges, whether it's a civilian power or military weapons program, so that's not a real issue.
The Iranians have offered to submit to the most intrusive inspection regime the IAEA can concoct, so long as their rights under the NPT are respected. The IAEA itself said it had had complete, unannounced access to every facility it wanted to inspect over the many months preceeding it being coerced into submitting the file to the Security Council 6-8 weeks ago.
Regarding the Ahmadinejad quotations. Yes, he's a milleniarist nutjob (perfect foil for W, eh?), and his Holocaust denial is vile. As to the opinion that Israel was imposed on the Palestinian people by the West (in effect punishing them for the crimes of the fascists), that's pretty much what happened. Why should they feel good about it? As to the last two quotes, I'd really like to know what Juan Cole's translation of the originals might be. Regardless, as to Israel being described as a tyranical regime, that's not to far off the mark if you're a Palestinian in the Occupied Territories. If you're Arab in Israel, it's more Jim Crow than frank tyranny.
I do not defend the politics of Ahmadinejad, or of the clerics who are the real power. I personally don't think that any religion -- most especially fundameltalist religion whether Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, whatever -- has any place in politics or in defining a state. I do defend the Iranian right of sovereignty, which necessarily includes supporting their rights under the NPT. Yes, Iran is being offered light-water reactors, if they give up their rights. Why should they do this? Is it preferable for it to leave the NPT, and join Israel, India, and Pakistan?
As to my assertion that the US has been threatening Iran with nuclear attack, there has been wide discussion throughout the media on the likely necessity of using tactical nuclear 'bunker busters' if the US decides to go ahead with it's 'premptive' war. Of course, no official in the Bush regime has said so openly; it's been left to anonymous sources and various pundits to float this threat. You are correct that a war against Iran is not in our interest, or for that matter, any sane understanding of the interest of the US government, but do you trust Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, et. al. to make sane choices while their plans of empire come to dust at their feet? I do not at all put it past them to decide apres moi, le deluge.
(By the way, it's really rich for anyone here in the US to criticize Iran for rigged elections.)
Well, Major, I'm gratified you've identified yourself as representing the John Birch Society trend here in this discussion. Rus Feingold a communist!?!? Puhleez honey! And I suppose Franklin Roosevelt was a commmunist, too, huh? Oh, and Kennedy was a Krushchev clone. Everyone to the left of Likudnik Lieberman (like, say, some 60% of the US population) is an appeasing communist. Glad we got that sooo clear.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to break it to you, but there's many times over the years when the US has been the bad guy, a good many of them in the Middle East. Sadly we're the bad guy again, perpetrating an illegal war and occupation in Iraq. I'm not stabbing the troops in the back, as you say. The corrupt, criminal Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield gang has that covered. I want them all out of there, every single one, out of harm's way, immediately if not sooner.
Unity? Unity with the murderers and theives who conceieved and are running this catastrophe? Who have devastated Iraq and precipitated the horrific carnage the Iraqi people suffer? Who bear full responsibilty for every death, every maiming of those troops you claim to 'support'? Who have mortgaged future generations of our people to fund their corruption and their failed fantasies of swaggering power? Who have gutted the treasury to fatten their cronies, while basic needs of our people go begging? Who have eviscerated the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in their craven lust of power and their cowardly fear that their crimes will be known?
Sorry, Major. I'm loyal to my fellow citizens, not those craven animals of BushCo., et. al. As far as they are concerned, I'm proud to be in disloyal opposition. And you, Major, sweetheart -- go have some Kool-Aid; you'll feel better.
Patrick Meighan said...
ReplyDeleteIs there *truly* such a vast ideological gulf between our nation's two major parties that numerous "centrist" issues end up left unaddressed?
Yes in some cases and in others there are issues where I fall on the Republican side on some and the Democratic side on others.
Examples:
1.I support the right of a woman to choose. Democrat
2.I do not support gun control, although I support stiff penalties for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime. Republican
3.I am against illegal immigration. Although once again I do support a verifiable temporary worker program once the border has been secured. I am for building a fence along the whole two thousand miles of border Republican
4.I do support legalizing gay marriage. I believe that religion/churches have the right to not recognize gay marriage within the church but that when it moves into the realm of Government and law that banning gay marriage is nothing less than legalized discrimination.
Democrat or leftist
5.I support not only withdrawing from NAFTA but also all of the other ill conceived trade agreements that have been entered into since NAFTA.
Against both parties positions on the issue of trade.
6.I support the repeal of the Patriot act except for the provision allowing agencys to share information.
Against both parties support of the act
7.I don't support ending the drug war but I do support the legalization of medical marijuana.
8.I am not against capital punishment. Again a distinction but there are two types of people on death row. The first is the type that committed a crime of passion or made a one time mistake that they are truly remorseful for. I support life imprisonment for those. There are others that have committed truly heinous crimes, have no remorse and will tell you to your face that if they are ever released or escape that they will do the same thing again. In those cases I am not opposed to capital punishment.
9.On Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't support an immediate pullout but I do support setting a deadline. One year from said announcement.
10.I am for reforming our political system. I am for repealing the law passed by Congress that permanently restricted the size of Congress to 435 members and going back to what the founding fathers intended which was one representative for every 30,000 people. I am for restricting fund raising to fund raising only from the people that a politician represents. In other words Senators would only be able to raise funds within their state. Representatives would only be able to fund raise funds from the thirty thousand they represent. Only the Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates would be able to raise money nationally. All foreign donations would be banned completely. I am also for public funded television with equal time given to all viable candidates. Those candidates being anyone who can get the signatures of ten percent of the people they purport to represent or that pay a non-refundable fee to be set according to the office they are running for.
At that point then I am for instant runoffs.
11. I support repealing Presidential fast track trade authority, permanently.
12.Reform of our educational system. Do away with social promotion, bilingual education, and get back to the basics. I am against the federal requirement to provide free public education to the children of undocumented or temporary workers. If temporay guest workers want to bring their children here to attend our public schools then they should be required to pay tuition. I also do not support taxpayer paid for /emergency care for temporary workers. If an employer wants to hire a guest worker then they should be responsible for their healthcare needs.
13.I am for cutting the military budget but not for a rigid percentage cut. I think that our true defense needs need to be evaluated and budgeted for appropriately.
14.I am against any attempts at regime change in foreign countries or any attempts to create Democracys at the point of a gun.
15. I am for the Government establishing a crash program along the lines of the Apollo moon program to establish energy independence within ten years.
Hope this answers your questions and gives you the details you wanted.
Gris Lobo... 2.I do not support gun control, although I support stiff penalties for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime. Republican
ReplyDeleteI think gun control laws should be left up to municipalities where population density might dictate more stringent laws. I have seen a few people claim that Dodge City was less safe because of Wyatt Earp's effort in this regard (Yes, Wyatt Earp, gun control advocate), but I find these claims unconvincing. I think any household, regardless of location should be allowed to own a shotgun, a weapon far superior for home defense than any handgun.
Other than that, I can't disagree too much with you, and neither do most Americans. Medical care for illegals and undocumented workers protects us all from the spread of illness and disease, and education should be free and available to all. I know inner city schools are sometimes problematic but I do not think the system of public education is entirely at fault, nor do I think it is a bad idea.
ReplyDeleteIt costs far less to educate a person than it does to incarcerate a person. Under our current system, which does not need to be changed, fast tracked or sped up, it costs far less to incarcerate a person for life than to put him to death after all of the appeals. Capital punishment has no social value. It does not act as a deterrent, often the opposite. I just don't think it's a good thing for the state to be involved with. Let's leave murder in the hands of the individual, where it belongs.
ReplyDeleteLook at the other countries that still employ capital punishment. Nt a list I am proud to be on.
DavidByron writes:
ReplyDeleteGermany declared war on the US not vice versa.
The United States declared war on Germany December 11, 1941. In the Senate the vote was 88-0. In the House, the vote was 399-0.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Other than that, I can't disagree too much with you, and neither do most Americans. Medical care for illegals and undocumented workers protects us all from the spread of illness and disease, and education should be free and available to all. I know inner city schools are sometimes problematic but I do not think the system of public education is entirely at fault, nor do I think it is a bad idea."
As for medical care, I think that medical pre-screening should be a part of any temporary/guestworker program.
And the problem with education is funding. At least where I am at. Property taxes pay for the shools and education. Temporary/guest workers don't pay property taxes. So what you end up with is a big influx of additional students with no additional funding to pay for it. You end up with overcrowded classrooms, a shortage of books and supplies, less than ideal idividual student attention, and a general deterioration of the education received.
Warning: Not for those with heart conditions...
ReplyDeleteHerr Kerr writes:
Justice Scalia and the Living, Breathing Fourth Amendment
I’d be interested in knowing whether the originalists in the audience approve of Section III b of Justice Scalia’s opinion in Hudson v. Michigan, in which he applies the 1980s-vintage balancing test for whether suppression is appropriate by noting recent trends in police training and public interest litigation. An excerpt:
. . . Congress has authorized attorney’s fees for civil-rights plaintiffs. This remedy was unavailable in the heydays of our exclusionary-rule jurisprudence, because it is tied to the availability of a cause of action. For years after Mapp, “very few lawyers would even consider representation of persons who had civil rights claims against the police,” but now “much haschanged. Citizens and lawyers are much more willing toseek relief in the courts for police misconduct.” M. Avery, D. Rudovsky, & K. Blum, Police Misconduct: Law andLitigation, p. v (3d ed. 2005); see generally N. Aron, Liberty and Justice for All: Public Interest Law in the 1980s and Beyond (1989) (describing the growth of public-interest law). The number of public-interest law firms and lawyers who specialize in civil-rights grievances has greatly expanded. . . .
Another development over the past half-century that deters civil-rights violations is the increasing professionalism of police forces, including a new emphasis on internal police discipline. Even as long ago as 1980 we felt it proper to “assume” that unlawful police behavior would “be dealt with appropriately” by the authorities, United States v. Payner, 447 U. S. 727, 733–734, n. 5 (1980), but we now have increasing evidence that police forces across the United States take the constitutional rights of citizens seriously. There have been “wide-ranging reforms in the education, training, and supervision of police officers.” S. Walker, Taming the System: The Control of Discretion in Criminal Justice 1950–1990, p. 51 (1993). Numerous sources are now available to teach officers and their supervisors what is required of them under this Court’scases, how to respect constitutional guarantees in various situations, and how to craft an effective regime for internal discipline. See, e.g., D. Waksman & D. Goodman, The Search and Seizure Handbook (2d ed. 2006); A. Stone & S.DeLuca, Police Administration: An Introduction (2d ed. 1994); E. Thibault, L. Lynch, & R. McBridge, Proactive Police Management (4th ed. 1998). Failure to teach and enforce constitutional requirements exposes municipalitiesto financial liability. See Canton v. Harris, 489 U. S. 378, 388 (1989). Moreover, modern police forces are staffed with professionals; it is not credible to assert that internal discipline, which can limit successful careers, will not havea deterrent effect. There is also evidence that the increasing use of various forms of citizen review can enhance police accountability.
Am I right that Scalia is saying that the meaning of the Fourth Amendment can change over time as the staffing of police departments and public interest law offices changes? The Constitution — It’s alive! This is a plausible view based on Fourth Amendment precedents, I should point out. Still, it’s sort of funny to read it in an opinion by Justice Scalia.
June 15, 2006 | 1:35 pm
29 comments »
and
But if the question is finding a rule that best fits into the framework of the Court’s precedents, it seems to me that the majority has it basically right.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"It costs far less to educate a person than it does to incarcerate a person. Under our current system, which does not need to be changed, fast tracked or sped up, it costs far less to incarcerate a person for life than to put him to death after all of the appeals. Capital punishment has no social value. It does not act as a deterrent, often the opposite. I just don't think it's a good thing for the state to be involved with. Let's leave murder in the hands of the individual, where it belongs.
Look at the other countries that still employ capital punishment. Nt a list I am proud to be on."
I gave my opinion on the issue because it was an issue raised by the party asking for my opinion. The death penalty by itself though is not a vote breaker from my standpoint. If a candidate was strong on the majority of issues I raised then I could still vote for him/her regardless of the stand on the death penalty.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteNo need to explain, bro. The dispassionate intellectual side of me is against capital punishment. The lizard brain in me wants to string them up myself.
And the problem with education is funding. At least where I am at. Property taxes pay for the shools and education. Temporary/guest workers don't pay property taxes. So what you end up with is a big influx of additional students with no additional funding to pay for it. You end up with overcrowded classrooms, a shortage of books and supplies, less than ideal idividual student attention, and a general deterioration of the education received.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely understandable and were I a property owner I would feel the same way under this current economic and tax model. This is why I am an advocate of Georgist economics (The LVT), like William F. Buckley, Jr. and not enough others. That is changing. They can't call it socialism because it isn't. It's as American as apple pie.
gl,
ReplyDeleteThanks for giving me your points-of-view on the topics I listed (the death penalty, for example). It was, truthfully, quite elucidating, though I confess that it wasn't exactly what I was asking for.
What I *was* asking for was a list of the unaddressed centrist issues that fall between the Dems' and Repubs' respective positions, thus necessitating a centrist third-party to address said issues. And I, myself, then listed 16 or so progressive issues issues (unrepresented by the Democratic Party) to demonstrate the need for the existance of leftist third parties like the Green Party. I wasn't necessarily hoping to get your point-by-point response to those progressive issues, though, again, your response was interesting, and I thank you for it.
Getting back to that centrist party, though...
I'm still unclear what *centrist* issues are currently unrepresented by the Dems and Repubs (again, issues which somehow fall *between* your idea of this nation's "far left" [Democrats, presumably] and "far right" [Republicans]).
Each issue that you raised that *isn't* already espoused by one or the other of our two major political parties seems, if you don't mind my labelizing, pretty straight-up liberal (i.e., none of your unrepresented issues is "centrist"... falling into the supposed ideological breach between the Dems and the Repubs). Which leaves us with, as you said, "issues where I fall on the Republican side on some and the Democratic side on others." Well and good, gl. Believe me, I can sympathize with your frustration over feeling unrepresented by any one party currently in power. But how likely is it that *your* cafeteria-style selection of disparate issues from the Dems' and Repubs' respective platforms is gonna match up exactly (or even substantially) with millions of other Americans' selections of said issues? In other words, while you, personally, would like a centrist third-party that represents platform planks featuring reproductive choice (from the Dems) AND a border fence (from the Reps) AND fully legalized gay marriage (from neither party), wouldn't many of your centrist-third-party-seeking fellow citizens wish for a party that represented the *opposite* of each of those issues you happen to hold dear? Or perhaps a different, conflicting selection of other issues taken from the Dems' and the Repubs' respective plates?
It seems to me that this cafeteria-style, a-little-from-the-Dems-and-a-little-from-the-Repubs strategy of issue selection would make for tough sledding, if you're hoping to build a political third party that's in any way viable, cohesive, and hoping to last beyond a single election cycle.
That said, I certainly do wish you luck on your quest, gl, as truly I feel that our nation needs more political voices at play, not fewer... even if those political voices are espousing viewpoints with which I happen to personally disagree.
Peace,
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
PR Representative: Los Angeles Greens
Barbara O'Brien said...
ReplyDeleteGiven that set of circumstances, how can anything other than regime change be effective? How can the alternative be anything but appeasement?
Somehow we managed to struggle along for more than forty years of the Cold War, not trusting the Soviets yet not attempting "regime change" in the Soviet Union, and it worked out. In fact, our biggest screwups in the Cold War tended to be when we got impatient and tried military intervention.
We were losing the Cold War by the 70s under the defensive "containment" policy which neither defended nor contained as the Soviets spread their control across Africa and into Latin America.
We won the Cold War in short order when we went on the military and economic offensive against the Soviet Empire during the 80s whose purpose was nothing less than regime change.
Because the Soviets had an enormous nuclear and conventional force, we waged wars against them and their allies through local rebel forces in several countries across the world.
We attacked their oil based hard currency economy by bribing the Saudis to raise oil production and lower the world price for Soviet crude by trading the Saudis advanced weapons. We strong armed the Euros into declining to accept Soviet natural gas shipments. Then we sabotaged the high technology stolen by the KGB and taken into the USSR. One infected computer program was used on their oil shipment system and caused a catastrophic fire.
As the Soviets became economically bankrupted and militarily overextended, we engaged in an enormous arms buildup with which the Soviets could not keep up. Most importantly, our threat to field a ABM system to block their missiles broke their will because their scientists told them this system was possible (because they themselves were working on the same thing) but that the Soviet economy and technology could not build one.
I would recommend that you read Victory and Reagan's War by Peter Schweizer.
The Bush Doctrine of preemption is simply a variation of the successful Reagan Doctrine against the Soviets.
Bart...
ReplyDeleteI would recommend that you read Victory and Reagan's War by Peter Schweizer.
The Bush Doctrine of preemption is simply a variation of the successful Reagan Doctrine against the Soviets.
I would recommend that we all start recognizing that Isaac Newton invented gravity and Ben Franklin invented electricity.
I always read the negative reviews at Amazon. That's how I decide if a book is worth reading.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with nearly everything this book says. And it leaves out a lot, too!
2 major points to consider are:
Reagan never actually had much to do with bringing down the Soviet Union - other than Reagan's profligate defense spending (which may have bankrupted the Soviet Army and nearly bankrupted us), Reagan and his coterie of criminals, thugs and arms dealers had more of a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War status quo than in disturbing it.
If any world leaders are owed the debt of the destruction of the Soviet Union, it is to be shared among Gorbachev -- who exposed the corruption inherent in the Stalinist Apparatus-- and Pope JPII -- who aided the Poles in their struggle for freedom from Soviet hegemony.
2) Schweizer ignores Reagan's organized crime connections - especially his dealings with Lew Wasserman and others at MCI. Reagan's SAG deals with MCI sold-out the Guild which entrusted him with their futures - primarily becuase Reagan trusted Organized Crime figures far more than he trusted anyone else who used their money to gain influence over him.
Schweizer also conveniently ignores the S&L scandal which Reagan facilitated - a scandal which (much like George Bush's Enron scandal) bears the hallmarks of a mafia-style "bust-out" and put billion$ directly into the pockets of Neil Bush.
What about China, Cuba and No. Korea?
Doesn't look like the Gipper was too sucessful. He did sure make a mint selling those weapons to Iran though.
The use of Soviet bloc sources, at first glance, nearly persuaded me that Reagan merits hero-worship. But the superficial handling of the 1946 Hollywood strike made me wonder, in general, about omissions. So, I scanned through the index. There is no entry for "Beirut" or "Lebanon" or "marine barracks" or "national debt." The author informs the reader that marines diverted, at sea, from Beirut landed on Grenada on February 23, 1983. He does not inform the reader that, on February 23, 1983, over 200 marines were killed by a truck bomb in Beirut. What a startling coincidence! How can the author fail to mention it? But, of course, then he does not have to report the cut and run from Beirut - nor consider what the terrorists may have learned about the efficacy of asymmetric war comparing the firm response in Grenada to the limp response in Lebanon.
Upon consideration, this book did not push me from the opinion I formed several years ago that Ronald Reagan is the third most overrated President in American history.
It wasn't Ronald that ended the Cold War, it was more like his daughter Patty. She talked her dad into talking to anti-nuclear activist Dr. Helen Coldicott, who softened his suspicious heart, causing him to go to Russia and be enthralled by its people. Returning from Leningrad University, in 1988 (one year after the Berlin Wall speech) Ronald raved, that Russians look just like guys from Idaho (that's, apparently, his highest compliment). This surprising cuddliness on Reagan's part relaxed tensions, to the point where the same relaxation could be induced in the Soviets. The notion that Reagan accomplished through Pershings what Hitler's hordes could not accomplish in a far more drastic manner, is implausible on its face. Also implausible is the fact that Reagan intuited that "The Evil Empire" could be dissolved without a nuclear war. Namely, if the empire was evil, how could Reagan have trusted it to peacefully give up what no "good" nation would give up? The fact that Reagan was a fierce anti-Communist most of his life doesn't mean that he didn't become gentle in the end, and that honey, rather than vinegar didn't accomplish the trick. Hats off to the unsung anti-nuclear, pro-peace demonstrators who induced the thaw. The fact that some of them were Stasi is neither here nor there, anymore than Ernst Roehm and many other nazis being gay means that gays were behind nazism ("The Pink Swaskika"), or the fact that many a Jew was a communist means that Jews were behind communism. Also forgotten is the fact that Maggie Thatcher introduced Gorbachev to Reagan. She was called the Iron Lady, but she wasn't the Iron Lady. She was much gentler than that. Again, Reagan in 1988 was not the 1964 Reagan. Same name, not the same person. People change.
History records many untrue things, so much so, that one could well say, that there's history and then, there's the truth. History records that Rasputin was evil, when in fact he was a priest who was murdered by idle aristocrats who wanted the senseless war to go on. But what history records is accepted as truth, which is why history always seems to be right. Anyone who has real respect for historic truth, is more interested in truth than in history. Historic truth is almost a contradiction in terms. History is no wiser than historians, and historians are often less wise than bus drivers. The truth cannot be found in dusty Soviet archives, simply because the truth does not reside in Moscow. It is more elusive than that. Truth can only be arrived at through logic. Facts are useless unless organized by earnest cogitation and good intentions. The fact that the road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions, doesn't mean that the road to heaven is paved with bad ones.
DavidByron writes:
ReplyDeleteNo. Germany declared war on America not vice versa. FDR asked congress to formally recognise a state of war existed.
You're simply wrong, Byron. Germany did declare on the United States before the United States reciprocated, but the resolution that passed both Houses unanimously on December 11, 1941 was, in fact, a formal declaration of war, and is recognized as such by everyone, it seems, except for you.
Text of the US Declaration of War Against Germany December 11, 1941
A brief and to the point comment will suffice in review of Peter Schweizer's "Reagan's War." If Ronald Reagan won the Cold War, there must be evidence that Errol Flynn won World War II. This is another attempt at mythical history, or perhaps serious political history in the guise of American hero worship (remember George Washington and the cherry tree?). In fact Reagan (and George H.W. Bush) just happened to be president of the United States at the end of the Cold War. There is little that Reagan did that actually contributed to that end. The truth is to be found in the ill-fated attempts by the USSR and its last leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, to adapt to the global economy (note the importance of Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt in this context if you need "heroes"). Gorbachev realized that the Soviet Union would soon be a secondary power if it could not compete on the economic level and instituted a series of reforms, domestically and interantionally, to that end. Ironically, he unleashed forces beyond his control that ultimately led to rapproachment with the West, the liberation of Europe, the reunification of Germany, and yes the end of the Cold War! Reagan was simply an interested and very vocal observer of all this. His bombastic rhetoric had little historical impact. Gorbachev failed in his purpose of preserving Soviet power, indeed he brought about the dismantling of the USSR. He was the inadvertant architect of the end of the Cold War, not the Gipper. Advocates of the Reagan scenario love to point to Reagan's demand that Gorbachev tear down the symbol of the Cold War, the Berlin Wall. Indeed, he made such a demand, and the wall came down...two years later, as part of a bureaucratic snafu, not in reaction to the Gipper. Reagan's presidency and the end of the Cold War and the Soviet Union were simply historical coincidences. There was no cause and effect here. Sadly, Schweizer, and others, miss that vital point.
ReplyDeleteGermany declared war on America on 12/11/1941.
ReplyDeleteDavis is right. You all owe him an apology. But screw instaputz anyway.
ReplyDeleteUS Declaration of War against Germany
December 11, 1941
The President's Message
To the Congress of the United States:
On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States.
I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
You're really trying to defend the historical accuracy of an email that claims Scotland was a separate ally of the US and Ireland fought in WW2?!?!
ReplyDeleteNo. I am correcting your false statement that Germany declared war on the United States and not vice-versa (my emphasis).
On this issue you're simply wrong. The United States did issue a formal declaration of war against Germany (and Italy) on December 11, 1941, in the Senate by a vote of 88-0, and in the House by a vote of 399-0.
Bart (the Marlboro Man on 20 Mule Team Borax) you so cwazy!
ReplyDeleteThere He Goes Again
by WALTER C. UHLER
[from the February 3, 2003 issue of The Nation]
Near the end of his threadbare, tendentious and dubious hagiography of Ronald Reagan, Peter Schweizer recounts the President's first trip to Moscow, in late spring 1988. Reagan had undertaken the visit, so Schweizer claims, in order to push "just once more against the Soviet edifice." Schweizer waxes euphoric about how the dissidents at Spaso House "erupted with cheers" as Reagan entered the room, how he wowed the students at Moscow State University and how Reagan lectured Gorbachev, in the words of one observer, like "a parent trying to reason with a child."
Strikingly absent from Schweizer's account of the visit, however, is perhaps the most revealing incident of all. When asked whether he still considered the Soviet Union to be the Evil Empire, Reagan answered: "No. I was talking about another time, another era."
Beyond questioning why Schweizer would omit such an important incident (obviously it doesn't fit with the author's portrayal of Reagan as a principled and relentless anti-Communist), one also might ask what had happened during the five years since Reagan first used the term. Had Reagan changed? Was he perhaps won over by Gorbachev? And why the criticism by prominent conservative columnist George Will ("Reagan has accelerated the moral disarmament of the West--actual disarmament will follow")?
(...)
But here's the rub: Reagan's hard-line policies did not win the cold war. Instead, it was a post-Able Archer, accommodating Reagan who permitted Gorbachev's idealistic and revolutionary policy of "mutual security" to bring the cold war to a peaceful conclusion. Gorbachev's accomplishments offered the world the prospect of a genuinely new world order. By embracing the early Reagan, however, America's "New World Order" has become but a more obnoxious form of the old.
Like Reagan before Able Archer, lesser Soviet leaders (before Gorbachev) were quite prepared to continue an arms race that increasingly jeopardized the security of the world. Unfortunately, today's world is ruled by such lesser leaders; which is why the Bush Administration's neo-Reaganism seems destined to create more enemies and arms races.
FDR says it in his address for Christ sake! David Byron is correct, as anyone who can read and comprehend the written word can plainly see.
ReplyDeleteDR says it in his address for Christ sake!
ReplyDeletePerhaps you're confused. The president (FDR) asked congress to "recognize that a state of war exists between Germany and the United States." This was his request to Congress. The congress responded by unanimously passing a formal declaration of war.
The text was as follows:
Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved, etc., That the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States, is hereby formally declared (my emphasis); and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States...
That is how our country is supposed to work.
ReplyDeleteBLAM.
Your post nailed it.
There are many many reasons to dump Joe Lieberman.
Getting rid of this Conneticut Senator is win win win.
You win: by removing a key neo conservative forign policy supported
You win: by removing a soft on corporate corruption Senator (remeber it was Lieberman who THREATENED TO CUT THE FUNDING of the Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board when they dared to suggest that options should be included as expenses rather than assets)
You win: by remopving a Senator who is media friendly to the Republican Party and its talking points.
WIN WIN WIN
DUMP DUMP DUMP
JOE JOE JOE
The friendly smile and the friendly mannerisms should not fool you, when it comes to facts and substance, Senator Joe Lieberman is a deadly snake in the grass and a poison to the Democratic Party.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI always read the negative reviews at Amazon. That's how I decide if a book is worth reading.
wow.
Anonymous diatribes, none of which address any facts presented in the books.
Typical left.
From Bart at 11:52AM:
ReplyDelete"Typical left."
Typical Right: glorifying a revisionist history that elevates an amiable simpleton to the status of an icon, unwilling to examine the historical record objectively or recognize the legitimacy or accuracy of alternate interpretations of events, nor willing to face how their icon's policies have saddled us with serious consequences playing out today.
The United States did issue a formal declaration of war against Germany (and Italy) on December 11, 1941, in the Senate by a vote of 88-0, and in the House by a vote of 399-0.
ReplyDeleteGermany declared war on the U.S. before the U.S. declared war on Germany. Many historians doubt the Senate would have declared war on Germany at that time had Hitler not forced the issue.
On December 11, 1941, in a speech to the Reichstag, Hitler declares war on the U.S. Keep in mind that Germany is (I think) five hours ahead of the United States. After news of the declaration reached Washington that morning (9:25 am Washington time, according to this source), Roosevelt sent a request for a declaration of war to Congress (received by Congress at 12:24 pm). You can read Roosevelt's request, which refers to Germany's declaration, here.
Later that same day (1:04 pm), Congress passed the resolution declaring war against Germany.
Italy's declaration of war and our response to it were just a couple of beats behind Germany's, btw.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI always read the negative reviews at Amazon. That's how I decide if a book is worth reading.
wow.
Anonymous diatribes, none of which address any facts presented in the books.
Typical left.
All those folks read the book and saved me the trouble of finding that POS in a dollar bin someplace and wasting my valuable time. Victory was worse.
I bet Hypatia just loved it. You two have one or two things in common. Get a job, Bart.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 11:52AM: "Typical left."
Typical Right: glorifying a revisionist history that elevates an amiable simpleton to the status of an icon, unwilling to examine the historical record objectively or recognize the legitimacy or accuracy of alternate interpretations of events, nor willing to face how their icon's policies have saddled us with serious consequences playing out today.
I posted a thumbnail sketch of the historical fact record and referred you to two books which lay that record out in detail.
That is typical right.
None of you has posted a contrary fact record or referred me to a primary source which does so. Instead, you make claims or link to diatribes which are bereft of facts.
Typical left.
From Bart at 1:01PM:
ReplyDelete"I posted a thumbnail sketch of the historical fact record and referred you to two books which lay that record out in detail."
You posted an interpretation of events colored by a ideological preference, doing so in absolute terms that neither you nor I nor anyone else can justly claim.
My response was, to fair, equally ideological. That's the difficulty with discussions like this: we can only ever write from our respective viewpoints. I could write an equally valid interpretation of the 1980s and early 1990s that casts a far different light upon the period and persons involved; you could and doubtlessly would dispute it, but solely because it differs from your own perspectives.
Typical right *and* left.
In other words, let's call a detente and get back to more important issues.
Glen Tompkins:
ReplyDeleteLieberman fears that the majority of Democratic voters in Connecticut have become jihadists as well. "A Connecticut Party No Longer" will, I guess, be the title of the book Lieberman will write, from forced retirement,...
That would be ironic (as will Lieberman's dethronement by the Democrats, if that comes to pass). Lieberman ousted the liberal and independent-minded Republican Senator, Lowell Weicker, to first take Senate office -- in part because Republicans threw Weicker overboard and wouldn't support him because of lingering bitterness for his early support for the impeachment of Nixon.
Wiecker, excommunicated from the Republican party, ran as an independent for governer, and won, under the "A Connecticut Party" label.
To be honest, I thought that Weicker was a better candidate back when Lieberman first ran gainst him. I still do (and I'm about as hard-core liberal as you can get).
Cheers,
Anonymous said that a shotgun is far superior to a handgun for home defense (and I am putting aside the questions of intent, as to the purpose of the weapons for which the right to bear to bear shall not be infringed; the strongest phrase of negation in a generally proscriptive document, one which usually preferred the locution, "Congress shall make no law.").
ReplyDeleteAs person with some 35 years experience with firearms, and trained in all sorts of their (and other weapons) use, any longarm (be it rifle, or shotgun) is inferior to a handgun in a close-quarters defensive situation.
The greater accuracy of longarms is negated by both the closeness of the target, and the slower speed with which it can be brought to bear.
Further, a modified choke (the default for most shotguns) only covers an area of about 6 inches at 30 feet, so the, pututive, advantage of the spreading cone of shot (which is 12 balls of .32in, per 2 3/4 in. shotgun shell in a load of .00 buck) is pretty much a myth in home environments.
Adding the existence of things like Glaser Safety Slugs (which do a huge amount of tissue damage, but self-destruct when hitting something more solid, such as dry wall) means that a pistol can be made far safer in the event of a missed shot, no killing the kid in the next room, or the neighbors dog in the next yard when one misses the target.
Personally, when it comes to home defense, I prefer long cutlery. I tend to grab my rapier, because it is far less likely that I will, in a moment of silly panic, shoot someone who is breaking in because she forgot her keys and didn't wan't to wake me than I am of being hurt by an intruder.
Push come to shove, at in house distances, a sword is just as fast as a gun, and less likely to lead to unpleasant mistakes.
It does take a little more training, but I think it worth it.
Terry Karney
SSG USA