Thursday, June 29, 2006

The significance of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld

(updated below)

The Supreme Court today, by a 5-3 decision (.pdf) in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, held that the Bush administration's military commissions at Guantanamo (a) exceed the president's legal authorization given by Congress and (b) violate the law of war, including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions which, the Court held, applies to all detainees in any armed conflict, including Al Qaeda members.

This is a complicated decision involving complex and sometimes arcane legal issues, and is rendered somewhat more complicated by the fact that Justice Kennedy joined in most but not all of the majority's decision [the Court's opinion was authored by Stevens and joined by Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer and (with some exceptions) Kennedy; in dissent was Scalia, Thomas and Alito. Roberts ruled in favor of the administration in the appellate court (right before he was nominated to the Supreme Court) and therefore did not participate in the ruling]. But the most significant parts of the decision were joined by five justices, rendering it binding. This is a very significant legal defeat, in several ways, for the administration. Following are preliminary observations about this decision:

(1) The Supreme Court held [Sec. VI(D)(ii) of the court's opinion] that Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applies to all detainees captured in military conflicts, including Al Qaeda members or other "enemy combatants," and not merely (as the Administration asserted) to soldiers who fight for established countries which are signatories to the Conventions.

Article 3 requires that detainees be tried by a "regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples," and the Court ruled [Sec. VI(D)(iii)] that the military commissions established at Guantanamo violate that requirement because they are not regularly constituted tribunals but instead are specially constituted courts in the absence of any emergency. Thus, under the Geneva Conventions, any and all detainees captured in armed conflict can be tried only by a "regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples."

(2) The Court did not rule on whether it could, in the absence of Congressional mandates, compel the administration to abide by the Geneva Conventions. The Court did not need to rule on this question, because it found [Sec. IV] that the administration was required by Congress -- as part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice ("UCMJ") -- to comply with the rules of law when creating and implementing military commissions. Thus, the Court enforced the Congressional statutory requirement that the administration comply with the rules of law with regard to all military commissions, and rejected any claims by the administration to possess authority to override or act in violation of that statute.

(3) The Court dealt several substantial blows to the administration's theories of executive power beyond the military commission context. And, at the very least, the Court severely weakened, if not outright precluded, the administration's legal defenses with regard to its violations of FISA. Specifically, the Court:

(a) rejected the administration's argument [Sec. IV] that Congress, when it enacted the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda ("AUMF"), implicitly authorized military commissions in violation of the UCMJ. In other words, the Supreme Court held that because the AUMF was silent on the question as to whether the Administration was exempt from the pre-existing requirements of the UCMJ, there was no basis for concluding that the AUMF was intended to implicitly amend the UCMJ (by no longer requiring military commissions to comply with the law of war), since the AUMF was silent on that question.

This is a clearly fatal blow to one of the two primary arguments invoked by the administration to justify its violations of FISA. The administration has argued that this same AUMF "implicitly" authorized it to eavesdrop in violation of the mandates of FISA, even though the AUMF said absolutely nothing about FISA or eavesdropping. If -- as the Supreme Court today held -- the AUMF cannot be construed to have provided implicit authorization for the administration to create military commissions in violation of the UCMJ, then it is necessarily the case that it cannot be read to have provided implicit authorization for the administration to eavesdrop in violation of FISA.

(b) More broadly, the Supreme Court repeatedly emphasized the shared powers which Congress and the Executive possess with regard to war matters. Indeed, in his concurring opinion, Justice Kennedy expressly applied the mandates of Justice Jackson's framework in Youngstown (the Steel Seizure case) on the ground that this was a case where the adminstration's conduct (in creating military commissions) conflicted with Congressional statute (which requires such commissions to comply with the law of war).

Applying Youngstown, Kennedy concluded that the President's powers in such a case are at their "lowest ebb" and must give way to Congressional law. In other words, Kennedy expressly found (and the Court itself implicitly held) that even with regard to matters as central to national security as the detention and trial of Al Qaeda members, the President does not have the power to ignore or violate Congressional law. While one could argue that Congress' authority in this case is greater than it would be in the eavesdropping context (because Article I expressly vests Congress with the power to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces"), the Supreme Court has rather loudly signaled its unwillingness to defer to the Executive in all matters regarding terrorism and national security and/or to accept the claim that Congress has no role to play in limiting and regulating the President's conduct.

(4) This decision illustrates just how critical is the current composition of the Supreme Court. The decision was really 5-4 (because Roberts already ruled in favor of the administration in the lower court). The Justice who wrote the majority opinion, John Paul Stevens, is 86 years old, and as Justice Blackmun once famously warned, he "cannot remain on this Court forever." If the Bush administration is permitted to replace Stevens with yet another worshipper of executive power, the next challenge to the Bush administration's theories of unchecked power could very easily result, by a 5-4 vote, in the opposite outcome.

(5) Congress can reverse almost every aspect of the decision as it specifically pertains to these military commissions. It could abrogate any treaties it wants. It could amend the UCMJ to allow military commissions with the rules established by the President. It has already stripped the Court of jurisdiction to hear future habeas corpus challenges by Guantanamo detainees, and could act to further strip the Court of jurisdiction in these areas. We will undoubtedly hear calls by Pat Roberts, John Cornyn, Jeff Sessions, Tom Coburn (and perhaps Joe Lieberman?) et al. for legislation which would accomplish exactly that.

Nonetheless, opponents of monarchical power should celebrate this decision. It has been some time since real limits were placed on the Bush administration in the area of national security. The rejection of the President's claims to unlimited authority with regard to how Al Qaeda prisoners are treated is extraordinary and encouraging by any measure. The decision is an important step towards re-establishing the principle that there are three co-equal branches of government and that the threat of terrorism does not justify radical departures from the principles of government on which our country was founded.

UPDATE: A few additional points worth noting or emphasizing:

(6) Strictly speaking, the Supreme Court did not enforce the mandates of the Geneva Conventions against the administration, nor did it hold that the administration is required in the absence of Congressional mandate to comply with the Conventions. To the contrary, the Court here was enforcing Congress's "express condition," when authorizing the President as part of the UCMJ to create military commissions, "that the President and those under his command comply with the law of war." The Court was enforcing the statutory requirement against the administration that it comply with the law of war with regard to military commissions, not the Conventions themselves.

For that reason, I think Marty Lederman's claim that "the decision basically resolves the debate about interrogation techniques" might be overstated -- both because (a) one could argue that the Court's decision turns on enforcement of the UCMJ's military-commission-specific requirements, and not the provisions of Article 3 generally; and (b) there is a much stronger argument to make in the interrogation area that Congress implicitly amended the Convention's requirements regarding torture (by enacting the much narrower McCain legislation governing interrogation techniques) than there is in the area of military commissions (where Congress has enacted no specific, subsequent legislation to replace the UCMJ's provisions regarding military tribunals).

Presumably, then, Congress could amend the UCMJ to exempt military commissions from the law of war (either generally or as it pertains to Al Qaeda members), casting into serious doubt the ongoing validity of the Court's ruling as it pertain to these commissions. Or, Congress could simply abrogate the Geneva Conventions altogether, which would certainly free the administration from those requirements. I would speculate that the Republican-controlled Congress could, without a great deal of difficulty, enact legislation exempting Al Qaeda members from the Article 3 protections.

Having said that, I agree with Marty that the real significance of this decision is not its effects on military commissions themselves, but the broad legal principles the decision affirms. Specifically:

(7) The more I read and think about this opinion, the greater a death blow I think it deals -- at least on the legal front -- to the administration's Yoo theory of unlimited executive power. Not only Justice Kennedy in his concurrence, but also the Court's opinion itself, cited Justice Jackson's 3-prong Youngstown test to re-affirm the proposition that the President's constitutional powers must give way to duly enacted Congressional laws.

More importantly,the Opinion repeatedly places great emphasis on what it calls "the powers granted jointly to the President and Congress in time of war" (See, for instance, Op. at p. 27; emphasis added in all citations). And in a direct repudiation of the administration's claim that Congress is without power to limit or regulate the war powers granted by the Constitution to the President, the Court explained (Op. at p. 29, fn. 23):

"Whether or not the President has independent power, absent congressional authorization, to convene military commissions, he may not disregard limitations that Congress has, in proper exercise of its own war powers, placed on his powers. See Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579, 637 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring).

Whether intended or not, that paragraph, by itself, dispenses with the central misconception -- the myth -- most frequently relied upon by Bush followers in defending the administration's violations of FISA. Specifically, they assert that cases which, pre-FISA, held that the President has inherent authority to eavesdrop mean that Congress cannot regulate that power.

But as the Court today explained -- and as Youngstown held 50 years ago -- even with regard to inherent powers he possesses, the President "may not disregard limitations that Congress . . . in proper exercise of its own war powers" imposes. That principle is based upon "the powers granted jointly to the President and Congress in time of war." Thus, even if the President possesses the power "absent congressional authorization" to, for instance, eavesdrop (or torture people), "he may not disregard limitations that Congress" imposes on such powers.

To appreciate what a severe blow this opinion struck to the broad outlines of the Bush administration's theory of executive power, compare the Court's holding that the President "may not disregard limitations that Congress has, in proper exercise of its own war powers, placed on his powers" -- powers which include its own "war powers" -- with the authoritarian claim of unlimited power asserted in the infamous Yoo memorandum:

Neither statute, however, can place any limits on the President's determinations as to any terrorist threat, the amount of military force to be used in response, or the method, timing, and nature of the response. These decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make.

More than anything else, the Court's opinion today is the opposite of -- a clear rejection of -- the crux of the Yoo Memorandum. The Court held that Congress most certainly does have a role to play in the exercise of war powers, and that such decisions are most certainly not "for the President alone to make."

Similarly, in his short one-page opinion -- signed by Justice Kennedy (as well as Ginsberg and Souter) -- Justice Breyer explained that absent emergency, the Constitution requires that the President comply with Congressional law even in areas which lay at the heart of national security:

Congress has denied the President the legislative authority to create military commissions of the kind at issue here. . . . Where, as here, no emergency prevents consultation with Congress, judicial insistence upon that consultation does not weaken our Nation’s ability to deal with danger. To the contrary, that insistence strengthens the Nation’s ability to determine—through democratic means—how best to do so. The Constitution places its faith in those democratic means. Our Court today simply does the same.

The (fatal) applicability of that paragraph to the administration's general theory of executive power is manifest. Just as Congress denied the President authority to create military commissions which violate the law of war, so, too, has Congress denied the President the authority to eavesdrop on Americans without warrants (and to torture detainees, etc.), and -- just as is the case with military commissions -- there is simply no legal justification for the President to ignore those laws.

151 comments:

  1. One wonders if the "unitary executive" wing of the SCOTUS would be so deferential to the executive if it were a liberal executive in power.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous1:50 PM

    VP Chief of Staff Addington's legal arguments have been discredited. Let's see him disbarred for failing to preserve the US treaty obligations and US Constitution. He's violated his oath.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous1:54 PM

    (5) Congress can reverse almost every aspect of the decision as it specifically pertains to these military commissions. It could abrogate any treaties it wants. It could amend the UCMJ to allow military commissions with the rules established by the President. It has already stripped the Court of jurisdiction to hear future habeas corpus challenges by Guantanamo detainees, and could act to further strip the Court of jurisdiction in these areas.

    I thought that the justices, individually and somewhat unofficially, have indicated strong skepticism as to Congress' ability to strip the courts of being able to rule on Constitutionality of ANY laws. I seem to recall at least one Supreme specifically stating this. I find it equally hard to believe that the Founders would have created a situation where the Congress can, de facto, violate the Constitution and Bill of Rights by passing insane laws and simply tack a court stripping append to it.

    The Congress cannot prevent the Supremes from ruling on ANYTHING vis a vis Constitutionality.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Also, because the Geneva conventions protect al Qaeda prisoners, this puts an end to the secret prisons, at the very least the more extreme forms of torture, such as waterboarding and puts Rumsfeld, Bush and possibly Cheney under command responsibility for any violations of the conventions. This was a great decision that should bring to an end a large part of the outrages we have seen in the past few years.

    ReplyDelete
  5. This was a great decision that should bring to an end a large part of the outrages we have seen in the past few years.

    That assumes complianace with the decision by the administration -- an assumption which seems quite unwarranted.

    Nonetheless, the restoration of the rule of law will be accomplished by steps, and this was an important step.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Glenn:

    Check out FN 23 of the opinion (this is the majority speaking):

    "Whether or not the President has independent power, absent con-gressional authorization, to convene military commissions, he may not disregard limitations that Congress has, in proper exercise of its own war powers, placed on his powers. See Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579, 637 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring). The Government does not argue otherwise."

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Congress can reverse almost every aspect of the decision as it specifically pertains to these military commissions.

    The point should be made often and clearly that this would be yet another example of the Republican Congress legalizing previously illegal actions by the administration.

    Specifically, the stated objectives of these illegal actions could have been achieved in a 100% legal way, so there is really no need to create new legislation to enable them.

    The only remaining reason to create such legislation would be to legalize the Bush administration's illegal acts.

    The fact that constitutionally protected rights are violated in the process clearly shows that this is not about "Protecting Freedom" at all.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I'm thinking of breaking out my Rove/Fitzgerald bottle of champagne tonight!

    ReplyDelete
  9. What could happen if Bush didn't comply with the decision? He does seem to want a way out of Gitmo, but as of last December, he still wants to torture at will.

    And thanks for the very lucid explanation of the decision.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anonymous2:13 PM

    In case someone from the MSM is reading today: these issues have animated much of the anti-Lieberman effort. A year ago this vote very well might have been 7-2.

    Many realized during the Alito hearings, in no small part led by Glenn's analyses, how close the Supreme Court might be to upholding extreme theories of executive power. It's worth considering that at least as much as the Iraq war, it's Lieberman's central role in crafting the fatal no-filibuster agreement.

    Even the fact that Alito brought us the modern Republican conception of signing statements (and associated law abrogation), and his active opposition to an opinion most Americans want to see upheld, did not count as an "extraordinary circumstance" under this agreement.

    There has been a recognition that this agreement has brought us this close to giving away our last check on monarchical impulses.

    ReplyDelete
  11. That assumes complianace with the decision by the administration -- an assumption which seems quite unwarranted

    The idea that who runs the country eventually comes down to who commands the Army is one that we've seen played out in many places in the world. I always considered it unthinkable that it could happen in the US.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous2:15 PM

    In comments at this mornings press conference with koko the clown, Bush said, to paraphrase, that already Congress is at work to write legislation to comply with the desires of his Administration to do whatever the hell they want to.

    I'm afraid its still gonna be a bumpy night...Thanks for your conciseness Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  13. It's good to see the Supreme Court push back finally in regards to the abuse of power on the side of the President. Took them long enough...

    -Comrade Dave
    http://theredmantis.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous2:21 PM

    comment:

    Subpara. (3) should be (1)

    question:

    can we put Bushco in jail yet?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Justice Breyer stated in today"s Hamdan opinion, "Nothing prevents the President from returning to Congress to seek the authority he believes necessary." Reacting to Breyer, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said on Fox, "The court is telling us that tribunals would be okay if you have the Congress' blessing."

    Um ... Sen. Graham: Breyer's a lawyer. And let me tell you somethin' 'bout lawyers (I have one for a gf, I should know): they mean exactly what they say, no more, no less. Breyer says GW Bush could go to Congress and ask for the authority to establish tribunals. He is not saying that the courts might not still find problems with those tribunals -- just that Bush, at the very least, should ask Congress for the legal authority to start the tribunals.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous2:27 PM

    Good point, Professor Foland. This is one of the things we were concerned about during the Alito hearings, particularly. Lieberman was one of the principal enablers of that confirmation. Unfortunately, more than one thought may be more than the press can keep in its little head when it comes to Lieberman.

    I must admit I'm waiting to see what happens next after this decision. Based on recent history, I don't think it will be good.

    Thanks for the concise report, Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  17. On a pessimistic note, I agree with Glenn (and Atrios) that this is more symbolic than substantive. They'll simply ignore the ruling.

    However, it does demonstrate very clearly that Glenn has also been right in pointing out how much effort the administration has gone to avoid judicial review.

    It's still left to us and to the increasingly less supine media to defend the constitution. We can do it by changing the composition of Congress. The media can do it by using this story as a foundation for finally pointing out the lawlessness of this administration

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous2:32 PM

    when do they get accused of treason?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Thank you, Glenn. This is probably the clearest explanation of the decision I'll read today.

    BTW, enjoying and learning a lot from your book.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous2:34 PM

    Article 3 requires that detainees be tried by a "regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples,"

    And now we will find out whether or not the USA presently can be considered a civilized people.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Glenn, SCOTUS blog reports that the ruling is expansive in its ruling on how these prisoners should be treated. They say that the "interrogation techniques" currently underway at Guantanamo are illegal by Geneva Convention criteria, which this ruling says should be used to determine these issues:

    ...[T]he Court held that Common Article 3 of Geneva aplies as a matter of treaty obligation to the conflict against Al Qaeda. That is the HUGE part of today's ruling. The commissions are the least of it. This basically resolves the debate about interrogation techniques, because Common Article 3 provides that detained persons "shall in all circumstances be treated humanely," and that "[t]o this end," certain specified acts "are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever"—including "cruel treatment and torture," and "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." This standard, not limited to the restrictions of the due process clause, is much more restrictive than even the McCain Amendment.

    Do you agree with this interpretation of the ruling?

    PS One can now imagine (if somewhat utopianly) that Bush et al. will have a warrant issued by the Hague for prosecution for crimes against humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous2:52 PM

    I would really, really like to see a Republican attempt to abrogate the Geneva Conventions.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Do you agree with this interpretation of the ruling?

    Yes, there seems to be no question that the apsects of the Geneva Conventions governing prisoner treatment -- provisions which are much broader than, for instance, the McCain torture ban -- apply to all detainees. Violations of those provisions are, as the Court points out, war crimes (by definition).

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous3:00 PM

    First of all, thanks to Glenn for the coherent analysis for all of us non-lawyer types.

    Even though the ruling clearly shows that Bush overstepped his bounds (something most of us knew, but is now finally the law of the land), it won't take long for the rubber-stamp Congress to change things to make it all good.

    But that's only within the confines of U.S. law, is it not? Won't the Geneva rules still apply, thus making any act by Congress moot in terms of the protections and rules provided by Geneva? Will Congress simply back the U.S. out of it?

    And as much as I'd like to see this ruling have some sort of impact, I'm not sure it will -- as others have rightfully noted, the "rule of law" Bush and Co. tout so much only seems to apply to them when it's convenient.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous3:01 PM

    Almost the minute the decision came down I thought, "I have got to see what Glenn Greenwald has to say about this." Happy to see it finally posted.

    What recourse do we/the courts/the Congress have to enforce this decision, considering that enforcement is basically the executive's job and the executive is in the wrong here?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous3:04 PM

    I have to believe somehow Bush is going to ignore or circumvent this decision.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Thank you for that excellent anaylsis.

    I'm heartened that the court found that the Geneva Conventions apply to all prisoners, but very worried that the administration will just ignore the court.

    The 2006 mid terms are more important than ever.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous3:10 PM

    Does this mean that the gitmo prisoners can be held until the end of the "war" as is the case with traditional pows?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous3:12 PM

    H.R. 666

    Congress hereby gives the president unlimited powers until he declares an end to teh war on terror, including but not limited to:

    Removing members of SCOTUS.....

    ReplyDelete
  30. Oh no, just when the GOP's "Blame the NY Times For Alerting The Terrorists To Our Strategy" campaign was starting to gather more GOP steam, the Supreme Court derails the party's latest attempts at tarring & feathering


    I remember Watergate, and the damage that's hitting this Administration and the GOP right now, from so many different sources at both the state and federal levels, is looking more likely to do far more long-term political damage to the party than even Nixon caused

    But there's a larger picture as well

    With all the discrediting the President, Administration and GOP are now going through, don't look for their media-whore apologists, lackeys, commentators, operatives and media outlets to escape being dragged down to the political entities they've so enthusiastically anchored themselves to

    And the sooner the better, the GOP and this Administration have done more than enough damage to the Constitutional ideals of Congressional Oversight and the Rule Of Law applying to everyone, from the most down on their luck homeless street person to the President himself

    The Administration is painting itself into an ever-tightening corner, it's incompetency in terms of everything except how efficiently it rewards corrupt cronies and campaign contributing corporations is now costing the President dearly

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous3:17 PM

    The reluctance of the media to use the phrase "constitutional crisis" when describing the actions of an executive that refuses to comply with the law is bizarre.

    ReplyDelete
  32. I want to add my voice to the chorus of thank yous for your explanation of such a complex case, Glenn.

    Afaic, if the congress makes an end run around this decision, that should be shouted far and wide from now until November. How long will the Republicans continue to clean up Bush's illegalities? That ought to be the question the voters keep in mind when they go to the polls.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous3:32 PM

    2 concrete positives from decision:
    1. Bushco deferring to Congress for commission authorization, even if successful, is anthema to their unitary executive theory, and
    2. Sunshine, the more the better. Ultimately, public awareness will be their undoing.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Wish I could leave a name but I can't cause of my location.

    I would like to comment on the "other" part of this decision that everyone seems to be avoiding; that being the illegal wire-taps and bank-rolling of financial data. Seems SCOTUS has issued a cease-and-desist order.

    Am I wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous3:47 PM

    Can gangbangers and other street criminals who- to use an plausible example- kill police officers in the US claim POW status?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Glenn,

    In response to your point #4 regarding the balance of power on the court, I just finished reading through the dissenting opinions, and at least with respect to president's AUMF and article II arguments, there is very little in the dissents that is helpful to the administration.

    Scalia dissented on jurisdiction grounds, believing that the DTA prevented SCOTUS review.

    Alito disagreed with the majority's interpretation of the UCMJ and Geneva Convention, but did not question their applicability.

    Only Thomas was willing to read the AUMF broadly and only Thomas said anything at all about the president's inherent authority (and only in a footnote).

    So long story short, there doesn't appear to be much support, even among the dissenters, for the administration's executive power arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous3:54 PM

    If Stevens dies, we will find ourselves living in a dictatorship in very short order.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Regardless of what Lindsay Graham says - Article 5 of the Geneva Convention States.

    Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

    So this decision by SCOTUS under this and the establishment clause isn't a big surprise, but is indeed devestating to Bush Administrations deliberate attempts to duck the War Crimes Act.

    Justice Kennedy's finding that the Presidents powers under Youngstown is indeed a fatal blow the Justice's contention that they are at their "Zenith" under the AUMF.

    All of this points to yet another reason why Republicans need to be removed from Power in Congress, or else they'll be able to codify Bush's anti-humane anti-freedom doctine into the law.

    Vyan

    ReplyDelete
  39. Glenn said:
    That assumes complianace with the decision by the administration -- an assumption which seems quite unwarranted.

    in response to:
    This was a great decision that should bring to an end a large part of the outrages we have seen in the past few years.

    Nod. I don't think anyone really thought that the courts would uphold most of the crap these people have tried. I think they made the claims about the courts upholding them in hopes that it would sway public opinion sufficiently that the matter wouldn't come to trial. (Or, of course, they hoped it would stay secret until it became moot. )

    Now, at least, the Supreme Court has said that, yes, when we give our solemn word that we'll treat people like human beings, we are by-god *bound* to do so, and the President can't just decide not to.

    But my god, it is scary as all hell if that part wasn't 8-0.

    America is not so weak that we can't fight honorably and win, and I am sick that the people in charge have chosen the route of cowardice, saying their fear is sufficient reason to refuse to uphold our principles.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Yeah, you'd think a former JAG lawyer would be up on such things. Or, just perhaps, he is perfectly aware of the applicability of the Geneva Conventions, but wishes to continue dishonestly whoring for the White House.

    I'll take door #2 for $20, Johnny!

    Party must always come before the law, you know. Why did we oppose the Soviet Union, again?

    Because they were "Godless Communists", other than that it seems theirs methods (From Gulags and Intimidation to extreme restrictions on Free Speach) are otherwise perfectly hunky-dory to this administration, if not the SCOTUS. The question is whether Congress is spineless enough to go along with BushCo or not?

    Vyan

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous4:33 PM

    Remember that FISA (certainly as it regulates the DOD's NSA) was also passed under Congress's War Powers, i.e. its power to "make rules for the government of the land and naval forces" under Art I sec. 8 cl 14.

    ReplyDelete
  42. pallidoris:

    The Congress cannot prevent the Supremes from ruling on ANYTHING vis a vis Constitutionality.

    IC you haven't surfed the RW wingnuts sites yet. They claim that the "with such exceptions ... as the Congress may make" clause allows precisely this absurdity. But then again, they're complete bonkers and haven't even the faintest acquaintance wuth either practicalty or reality. A dogma is their best ... and only ... friend.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous4:35 PM

    What if some US citizen blows a few holes in, say, Teddy Kennedy. He then claims that he is waging war against the US government.He claims POW status. To strenghten his case he is a Muslim convert and has a picture of Ossama on his bedroom wall. Should he get POW status and spend the rest of his life in relatively cushy POW camp instead of the Colorado Supermax? Just asking all of you great legal minds.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous4:35 PM

    Thanks for this post. I've come to enjoy and even rely on your clarity and thoroughness in political legal analysis.

    I have a question for everyone: Why didn't Stevens join Kennedy's concurring opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  45. perroazul del norte said...

    Can gangbangers and other street criminals who- to use an plausible example- kill police officers in the US claim POW status?


    Though I suspect this is ludicrous, let's walk down this road:

    1) an arrested civilian citizen of the united states is charged with a felony of some sort
    2) He claims he is a POW
    3) Assuming the Judge doesn't laugh it out of court, he will question the accused to provide some evidence of that claim
    4) Assuming the judge is a moron and buys it, and grants the claim what then?

    Well, not like buddy goes free, in fact, I suspect he has just decreased his rights under the law. For example, I don't think POWs get Miranda rights, or a phone call. Can they plead the 5th, or can they be forced to testify against themselves? He may also have waived his right to a trial by jury. POWs can be made to work (except officers).

    I doubt this is a promising avenue of legal tricks that defence lawyers will employ.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Glenn said:

    That assumes complianace with the decision by the administration -- an assumption which seems quite unwarranted.

    You have a point, Glenn. They won't listen to Congress, so why should they pay attention to the courts? Possession is nine tenths of the law, and Dubya has the Army.... I'd note this is hardly hyperbole; such defiance of the courts was the case during the early civil rights years, and Eisenhower had to actually call out the military to enforce court orders against defiant states.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  47. jpatchen, quoting the decision:

    "Whether or not the President has independent power, absent con-gressional authorization, to convene military commissions, he may not disregard limitations that Congress has, in proper exercise of its own war powers, placed on his powers. See Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579, 637 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring). The Government does not argue otherwise."

    HWSNBN is having a bad hair day.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  48. Leading into the signing statement attached onto McCain's anti-torture bill. Could this move toward kicking the legs out from under that signing statement?

    ReplyDelete
  49. to del norte.

    Cushy POW

    Cushy? That's patently ridiculous, particularly since the Geneva Conventions were recently removed from the Army Field Manual (Regardless of the McCain anti-torture Ban). I guess those quaint little rules have to go back now...

    to Dan

    POWs can be made to work (except officers).

    Just for the sake of clarity, any person that is "Duly Convicted" within the U.S. can be enslaved and forced to work under the 13th Amendment.

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    POW aren't the only ones. The rest of your statement was most Cogent.

    Vyan

    ReplyDelete
  50. So, if the court has ruled this way, doesn't that certify all the administration's previous actions in this regard illegal?

    For example, say I rob somebody, and I go to court and argue that my position as King of BFE entitles me to exact tribute from anyone I damn well please. And my case goes all the way to the Surpreme Court. And I lose. Doesn't that mean I'm guilty of robbery and I have to go to jail?

    The reaction to this decision so far seems to be, well, now they won't be able to hold people incognito in Gitmo. Isn't that like saying, don't rob again? What they did was illegal. It was argued in court and they lost. So why isn't the chief of police knocking on the White House door right now? They broke the law, had their day in the highest court in the land, and lost. The Supremes say that what they did was illegal. As in criminal. As in warranting arrest.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous5:00 PM

    Glenn:

    On your No. (6) in the update, I think it important to note that while the Court reserved the question of whether the Geneva Conventions create a directly actionable right and the DC Circuit was 3-0 on this point, it explicitly held that Common Article III applies to everyone, including the detainees and binds the United States as a high contracting party.

    While the McCain Amendment could have impliedly amended the Conventions (dubious given the Court's prenouncement on implied repeals in the same opinion), there seems to be little doubt that any treatment of detainees in derogation of Common Article III is, by definition, a war crime.

    The Administrations only defense on the violation of Common Article III (as opposed to who may enforce the Convention) has been its non-applicability. That is now gone.

    Whether the administration will care is a wholly different matter.

    ReplyDelete
  52. perroazul del norte:

    What if some US citizen blows a few holes in, say, Teddy Kennedy. He then claims that he is waging war against the US government.He claims POW status. To strenghten his case he is a Muslim convert and has a picture of Ossama on his bedroom wall. Should he get POW status and spend the rest of his life in relatively cushy POW camp instead of the Colorado Supermax? Just asking all of you great legal minds.

    POWs (Third Protocol) are given more rights in certain respects than are civilian detainees (Fourth Protocol) in wartime. But both may be charged, tried, and convicted for common crimes and crimes against the (so-called) "laws of war". And assassination of an unarmed government official is almost assuredly both a common crime and a war crime.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous5:19 PM

    With regards to the supremes descisions today, could not someone in the legal field then charge bush with war crimes?

    ReplyDelete
  54. On your No. (6) in the update, I think it important to note that while the Court reserved the question of whether the Geneva Conventions create a directly actionable right and the DC Circuit was 3-0 on this point, it explicitly held that Common Article III applies to everyone, including the detainees and binds the United States as a high contracting party.

    You are entirely right in what you say here, and I tried to acknowledge that in the way I made my point (although it was murky).

    But, if there is no direct cause of action to enforce Geneva Convention obligations by non-citizen detainees, what would it really matter if the Supreme Court held that Article 3 covers all detainees? It has political significance, but what legal significance would it have?

    But I've heard administration defenders argue that if the prisoners are POWs, the U.S. can hold them until the "war" is over -- and this war is never going to end.

    In Hamdi (the 2004 case involving U.S. citizen Yaser Esam Hamdi), the Supreme Court held that U.S. citizens cannot be detained indefinitely without giving them the right to challenge the validity of the accusations that they are "enemy combatants." That decision clearly does not apply to non-citizens such as Hamdan, and the Court today expressly said that it was not challenging the administration's right to hold non-citizens indefinitely until "hostilities end."

    So you are correct - this decision, somewhat paradoxically, requires certain safeguards in the event of trial by mlitary commission, but does not prevent the administration from simply holding them as POWs (or enemy combatants) indefinitely.

    The only reason the administration is giving them trials by military commission is because international pressure demands it. They would obviously be satisfied to just keep them locked up forever, or however long they feel like it, without bothering with any of those annoying trials at all.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous5:23 PM

    Couldn't have happened at a better time, because celebrating Independence Day seemed folly with an unrestrained Despot in the White House!! Thanks Glenn for explaining the carryover effects that the ruling should have on the NSA spying, and other Bushit programs implemented under the guise of the War on Terror.

    We are fighting hard here in Oregon for the adoption of a Resolution of Impeachment against Bush and Cheney, and with Berkeley's adoption of a similar Resolution and now this ruling against BushCo, we will send Congress 500 petitions for Impeachment tomorrow morning, with renewed hope in our eyes and vigor in our fight!!

    Styve

    ps - protest sign ideas for July 4~~

    Justice Will Prevail...Bush/Cheney Will Go to Jail!!
    Unitary Executive to Solitary Cell...NICE!!
    Laws, Commandments...Bush Breaks 'Em ALL!!
    Cheney Should Do Time…This time!!
    Support Bush, Abet a Criminal
    Denial of Bush's Lawbreaking is Unpatriotic!!
    Fake Pres. / Real Dic.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous5:27 PM

    Imperative that patriots (I'm not even saying Dems anymore) get in front of the cameras in the next few hours and days.

    Media is already framing this as "Court deals setback to Bush war on terror"... when it should be "Bush over-reaches in power grab... war on terror suffers".

    Eddy

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Bart? Bart? Where are you Bart? SCOTUS got your tongue?

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous5:28 PM

    I knew you would bring a can of Whoop A$$ on the Bush Administration. Excellent discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous5:29 PM

    Great analysis Glenn.

    Thank goodness for the pinkos on the SC. Sometimes pink turns out to be the best color.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous5:36 PM

    After reading the screaming headlines on the media sites reporting the Hamdan decision, I expected the worst. However, this badly fractured and often contorted set of decisions really isn't much of a practical problem for the President in general. However, as I discuss below, a decision concerning the charge of conspiracy has the potential to derail several prosecutions of the enemy combatants.

    1) The fact that the Supremes assumed jurisdiction over this matter despite several contrary precedents is no real surprise and doesn't merit much discussion. From the beginning, they have asserted review authority and the President's public statements for the past month have all but invited them to make this decision.

    2) The Supremes recognized that both Articles I and II of the Constitution provide both Congress and the President with the power to make rules concerning the treatment of "captures." However, given that Article I, Section 8(11) expressly gives Congress the power to make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water," I would think that Congress' actions in this area trump the President's general authority. Although the Stevens opinion does not address this, the Kennedy concurrence does and agrees with my view.

    3) Even so, the Supremes recognize that Congress through Article 21 of the UCMJ has permitted the President rather wide latitude to exercise his general authority to convene military commissions for the purpose of trying enemy combatants for violating the law of war. The Hamdan decision is limited to whether Hamdan was properly charged under and the procedures complied with the "law of war."

    4) Hamdan was charged with conspiracy to commit war crimes. The Supremes interpreted Article 21 to incorporate the prior common law of substantive war crimes. So far, so good. However, the majority then engages in some significant contortions to hold that the prior common law history of trying various defendants for conspiracy starting in the Civil War and then going through WWII somehow does not establish a crime of conspiracy which can be used against Hamdan.

    This holding is more than a little insane given that conspiracy is a well established common law crime going back centuries. The only explanation is that the Court is legislating here to limit trials of enemy combatants to only crimes of commission with the intent of derailing prosecutions of inchoate crimes like conspiracy of which the majority of these enemy combatants are charged.

    This may effectively be the most important holding of all for the enemy combatants because, when Congress enacts a statute making conspiracy and other inchoate offense "war crimes," the Court will most likely hold that the statute may not be applied ex post facto to enemy combatants who committed their crimes before the new statute. Cute.

    However, as I discuss below, perversely none of this is likely to have any affect on Hamdan's captivity.

    5) The remainder of the opinion has to do with whether the Hamdan military commission is using the procedures which comply with the "law of war." In short, the Supremes have interpreted Article 21 of the UCMJ to require a military commission to follow the procedures established by US federal courts or the UCMJ unless either Congress amends the UCMJ to permit other procedures or (this is very important) the President makes an express finding that following either the federal court or UCMJ rules is not "practicable."

    The President made a determination that application of the federal court rules was impractical which was upheld, but made no such determination concerning the UCMJ. Because the Hamdan military commission does not follow several UCMJ procedures and the President has not made a determination that these procedures are impractical, the Supremes held that the military commission may not proceed to try Hamdan.

    How much deference the Supremes will give to a future presidential finding of "practicability" seems to be a matter of debate between the members of the Court.

    A majority agree that, when the President makes a determination that application of federal court procedures will be impractical, "We assume that complete deference is owed that determination." The President made such a determination concerning Hamdan.

    However, in the case of UCMJ procedures, Kennedy and three other justices in concurrence would require the President to make a particularized showing of why each UCMJ procedure not followed by a commission is "impractical." I suspect that Stevens would go along with this approach although his opinion does not mention it nor does he join the Kennedy concurrence.

    Stevens and Kennedy each provide dicta indicating ahead of time what procedures they consider to be practical and thus not subject to waiver. (Funny, I thought this was the President's determination to make under Article 21).

    Therefore, I suspect that the President will ask Congress to amend Article 21 of the UCMJ to establish exactly what procedures must be followed by military commissions rather than making his own finding and letting the Supremes make that decision for Congress. There is no issue of ex post facto when dealing with changes in procedure.

    6) Given its interpretation of the UCMJ settled the matter, the Court made a gratuitous foray interpreting and essentially rewriting Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. By its own language and in the official commentaries, Article III is limited to civil wars within a nation and not to international wars like that between us and al Qaeda, of which Hamdan is a member. However, the Court simply notes that the commentaries (not the text of Article 3) also stated that "the scope of Article III must be as wide as possible" and takes that a license to apply this provision to al Qeada in complete contravention of the language of the actual Article 3.

    However, the Supremes only hold that Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions require that the United States follow its own laws and procedures. Thus, the President may still issue a finding pursuant to Article 21 of the UCMJ that the UCMJ procedures are not practicable in Hamdan's military commission.

    7) Kennedy observed that there is no hurry to resolve these issues of procedure because "the government claims the authority to hold him as an enemy combatant." Therefore, all of this procedural squabbling has no practical effect on Hamdan's captivity. Indeed, Hamdan's only chance of being freed anytime soon is if he is acquitted at the trial that the Supremes refuse to allow to proceed.

    8) One last observation...

    Kennedy is taking on his role as the "decider" for the Supremes with gusto. This formerly reliable vote for judicial restraint is now rewriting laws left and right to suit his personal whims. We are still one vote short of a true conservative majority on the Court.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous5:38 PM

    Glenn, thank you for your coverage of this and many issues. You've well summarised the key points.

    After reviewing the opinion and your update (6), I'd like to hear some more commentary on what you've said.

    Glenn"the Supreme Court did not enforce the mandates of the Geneva Conventions against the administration, nor did it hold that the administration is required in the absence of Congressional mandate to comply with the Conventions."

    However, the Hamden Text [7/185]: "Common Article 3’s requirements are general, crafted to accommodate a wide variety of legal systems, but they are requirements nonetheless."

    . . .

    Again, to say, "did not enforce the mandates of the Geneva Conventions against the administration" appears to directly contradict what the court explicitly says on page 7 of the opinion. Perhaps you have some specific views, or comments that could account for your contention that the Geneva is not being "encorced" against the Admniistration.

    By the plain reading of the opinion, its clear that the Geneva Conventions are applicable; do apply to this case; and preumably attach liabilty to not only the Administration, but legal counsel -- who, under Article 82 of 1929 -- have a legal duty to ensure the Conventions are followed.

    This article clearly asserts that Addington said ARticle 3 did not apply/was not applicable/irreleant/should not be in teh memo; while the Hamden case clearly concludes the opposite: That Article 3 is a requirement.

    Please discuss:

    - What action DoJ OPR would take to review the apparent violations of Geneva;

    - The case for the DC Bar to review Addington's legal standing, as to whether he has or has not ad4euately complied with his Article 82 Geneva Requirements; and whether he could be disbarred for failing to comply with treaty oblgations (ensuring that commanders follow Geneva);

    - The basis to attach the opinion to disbarment procedings against Addington, Yoo, Gonzalez, and other Executive department attorneys who have unlawfully ignored Geenvea, and failed to ensure that their memorandum (as should be expected of an attorney) included the treaty oblibations of the Executive, his agents, and staff attorneys.

    Then: Consider what steps would be needed to reivew whether US Atty, through a civil rights action, or private action per 18 USC 1983 [ At 5: Civl rights of all Americans ] to incorporate the string of abuses, and find that the specitic leadership in the Executive Branch, have failed to do waht should be done: Malfeasance, and how that would be applicable/admissable for purposes of litigation against the NSA-telecoms over the FISA violations.

    Overall: Looking for a very good reason why these civil-criminal issues aren't being reviewed by an empaneled Grand Jury, for purposes of reviewing teh scope of abuses committed by this President, in violations of the laws of war, US treaty obligations, and US criminal code.

    ReplyDelete
  62. However, the Hamden Text [7/185]: "Common Article 3’s requirements are general, crafted to accommodate a wide variety of legal systems, but they are requirements nonetheless."

    Yes, the Court said that Article 3 provisions are requirements. But there is a real question as to whether a non-citizen would have standing to enforce the Geneva Conventions directly against the administration, and the Court expressly refused to rule on that.

    They did NOT enforce the Geneva Convention here. They enforced the Congressional statute (the UCMJ) which requires that all military commissions adhere to the law of war (i.e., in this case, the Geneva Conventions).

    In the absence of that Congressional requirement -- i.e., if Congress amends that law to get rid of that requirement -- it is far, far from certain that the Court would conclude that it can enforce the Geneva Conventions directly against the administration in a suit brought by a non-citizen.

    That is a legalistic and somewhat strained distinction, but it's also an important one not to overlook, especially as the case now turns to what is sure to be a Congressional response to try to ensure that these military commissions can proceed despite this decision.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous5:47 PM

    bart: "This formerly reliable vote for judicial restraint is now rewriting laws left and right to suit his personal whims. We are still one vote short of a true conservative majority on the Court."

    This quote reveals all you need to know about bart's rationale for everything. Law is subserviant to HIS political whims. The law doesn't matter, only the end results. He'll contort words in the constitution to get reach that result no matter what.

    He seems to have tied his political identity to that of the president's. Especially pay attention to this: "We are still one vote short of a true conservative [i.e., bart's current opinion] majority on the Court."

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous5:53 PM

    GG: Nonetheless, the restoration of the rule of law will be accomplished by steps, and this was an important step.

    It was an important step because the Constitution is a moral document.

    We've all agreed that adherence to the Constitution is what we desire.

    Administrations which flout the law are one part of the dilemma.

    I think the bigger problems are
    bad laws enacted by politicians, and bad justices placed on the SC by Presidents, justices who interpret the Constitution to sanction those bad and immoral laws.

    This is especially and critically true in a climate where every time a law is flouted, the Congress steps forth seeking to make the violation of law legal by passing another law legalizing the formerly illegal activity. When it later gets rubber stamped by the SC, we enter the domain of Kafka.

    What say you of your boys, hypatia and jao?

    PS. I am glad that fascist Roberts had to abstain, and wasn't there to twist Kennedy's arm.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous6:07 PM

    Glenn:

    (3) The Court dealt several substantial blows to the administration's theories of executive power beyond the military commission context. And, at the very least, the Court severely weakened, if not outright precluded, the administration's legal defenses with regard to its violations of FISA. Specifically, the Court:

    (a) rejected the administration's argument [Sec. IV] that Congress, when it enacted the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda ("AUMF"), implicitly authorized military commissions in violation of the UCMJ.


    Agreed. The weak AUMF argument just got considerably weaker.

    (b) More broadly, the Supreme Court repeatedly emphasized the shared powers which Congress and the Executive possess with regard to war matters. Indeed, in his concurring opinion, Justice Kennedy expressly applied the mandates of Justice Jackson's framework in Youngstown (the Steel Seizure case) on the ground that this was a case where the adminstration's conduct (in creating military commissions) conflicted with Congressional statute (which requires such commissions to comply with the law of war).

    Applying Youngstown, Kennedy concluded that the President's powers in such a case are at their "lowest ebb" and must give way to Congressional law. In other words, Kennedy expressly found (and the Court itself implicitly held) that even with regard to matters as central to national security as the detention and trial of Al Qaeda members, the President does not have the power to ignore or violate Congressional law. While one could argue that Congress' authority in this case is greater than it would be in the eavesdropping context (because Article I expressly vests Congress with the power to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces"), the Supreme Court has rather loudly signaled its unwillingness to defer to the Executive in all matters regarding terrorism and national security and/or to accept the claim that Congress has no role to play in limiting and regulating the President's conduct.


    The only thing correct about the foregoing post is that Kennedy did cite to Youngstown. The rest is a gross misrepresentation of what the Kennedy and the majority held.

    The Stevens opinion (in a part joined by Kennedy) instructed:

    The Constitution makes the President the "Commander in Chief" of the Armed Forces, Art. II, §2, cl. 1, but vests in Congress the powers to "declare War ... and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water," Art. I, §8, cl. 11, to "raise and support Armies," id., cl. 12, to "define and punish ... Offences against the Law of Nations," id., cl. 10, and "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces," id., cl. 14.

    The interplay between these powers was described by Chief Justice Chase in the seminal case of Ex parte Milligan:

    "The power to make the necessary laws is in Congress; the power to execute in the President. Both powers imply many subordinate and auxiliary powers. Each includes all authorities essential to its due exercise. But neither can the President, in war more than in peace, intrude upon the proper authority of Congress, nor Congress upon the proper authority of the President... . Congress cannot direct the conduct of campaigns, nor can the President, or any commander under him, without the sanction of Congress, institute tribunals for the trial and punishment of offences, either of soldiers or civilians, unless in cases of a controlling necessity, which justifies what it compels, or at least insures acts of indemnity from the justice of the legislature." 4 Wall., at 139-140.21


    In his concurrence, Kennedy added:

    The proper framework for assessing whether Executive actions are authorized is the three-part scheme used by Justice Jackson in his opinion in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579 (1952). "When the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum, for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate." Id., at 635. "When the President acts in absence of either a congressional grant or denial of authority, he can only rely upon his own independent powers, but there is a zone of twilight in which he and Congress may have concurrent authority, or in which its distribution is uncertain." Id., at 637. And "[w]hen the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb." Ibid.

    In this case, as the Court observes, the President has acted in a field with a history of congressional participation and regulation. Ante, at 28-30, 55-57. In the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), 10 U. S. C. §801 et seq., which Congress enacted, building on earlier statutes, in 1950, see Act of May 5, 1950, ch. 169, 64 Stat. 107, and later amended, see, e.g., Military Justice Act of 1968, 82 Stat. 1335, Congress has set forth governing principles for military courts. The UCMJ as a whole establishes an intricate system of military justice. It authorizes courts-martial in various forms, 10 U. S. C. §§816-820 (2000 ed. and Supp. III); it regulates the organization and procedure of those courts, e.g., §§822-835, 851-854; it defines offenses, §§877-934, and rights for the accused, e.g., §§827(b)-(c), 831, 844, 846, 855 (2000 ed.); and it provides mechanisms for appellate review, §§859-876b (2000 ed. and Supp. III). As explained below, the statute further recognizes that special military commissions may be convened to try war crimes. See infra, at 5-6; §821 (2000 ed.). While these laws provide authority for certain forms of military courts, they also impose limitations, at least two of which control this case. If the President has exceeded these limits, this becomes a case of conflict between Presidential and congressional action--a case within Justice Jackson's third category, not the second or first.


    I completely agree with the Court's analysis here.

    In cases where Article I expressly grants Congress power over a particular subject matter area (i.e setting rules for the treatment of captures), then the President's general authority over the military gives way when Congress acts pursuant to a specific Congressional authority enumerated in Article I.

    However, unlike this case, there are no enumerated Article I provisions which give Congress the power to make command decisions over who may be subject to intelligence gathering. Therefore, the Court's reiteration of the Youngstown analysis here has no application to FISA.

    As "Chief Justice Chase [said it best] in the seminal case of Ex parte Milligan:...Congress cannot direct the conduct of campaigns, nor can the President, or any commander under him, without the sanction of Congress, institute tribunals for the trial and punishment of offences."

    (4) This decision illustrates just how critical is the current composition of the Supreme Court. The decision was really 5-4 (because Roberts already ruled in favor of the administration in the lower court). The Justice who wrote the majority opinion, John Paul Stevens, is 86 years old, and as Justice Blackmun once famously warned, he "cannot remain on this Court forever." If the Bush administration is permitted to replace Stevens with yet another worshipper of executive power, the next challenge to the Bush administration's theories of unchecked power could very easily result, by a 5-4 vote, in the opposite outcome.

    Agreed. We need one more appointment to the Supremes. Luttig or Brown would be good choices. Ginsburg is sleeping on the bench during oral arguments and needs to retire.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous6:10 PM

    Bart, if you agree with the court's analysis why do you "need" one more "conservative" on the court?

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Bart, if you agree with the court's analysis why do you "need" one more "conservative" on the court?

    The fact that Congress must act pursuant to an enumerated Article I power to enact legislation is so self evident that even the libs on the Court cannot avoid it, despite Glenn's fondest wishes.

    We need one or more strict constructionists on the court to avoid more of the legislating the Court engaged in writing the Hamden decision.

    I should have said strict constructionist instead of conservative because Janice Rogers Brown is a Ayn Rand libertarian, not a conservative.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous6:19 PM

    Glenn"They did NOT enforce the Geneva Convention here. They enforced the Congressional statute (the UCMJ) which requires that all military commissions adhere to the law of war (i.e., in this case, the Geneva Conventions)."

    Put another way, this is like syaing, "We are enforcing the Statue that is linked with the Constutiton -- but we are not enforceing the Constutiton, which is the basis for that statute."

    Again, your distinction may have some support in case law, but it doesn't pass the smell test, especially when comparing the argument with respect to the Statute-Constitution.

    I do not accept your contention that the enforcement of the Supremee court Congressional statute -- which is based on Geneva -- does not affirm the applicability of Geneva. You'll need to provide some cases to show that the difference is real; and that there's a credible showing that enforcing a statute, which is based on Geneva, is not the same as affirming/enforcing the fundamental document.

    I need to see something that would credibly argue that "by enforcing only the Statute" we're actually saying nothing about Geneva; where that was relevant; why the distinction, even if real, is a credible point; or how someone in DoJ-Addington-land would use this as a credible argument.

    Said another way, and I do not mean this to be an attack on you personally Glenn, but the disction (in my view) sounds like a nuance I'd hear from Addington -- at the very heart of the claims in Hamden, which the Court has struck down.

    If the distinction is real, then show me a situation, not hypoethical, where this was actually important. At this point, the issue isn't the disction, but why any court would affirm the distinction has any releveance; and how anyone could argue (even if true) that the court did "not enforce Geneva". Overall, I think it is absurd to noarrowly argue that the opinion only enforces the Statute, and is unrelated/has nothing to do with/and has not enforced Geneva. If that is true, then Addington-Yoo-et all can simply say, "See Geneva is not applicable, and we can make laws that ignore Geneva," thereby ignoring the Hamden opinion.

    Again, if the "way forward" is to abrogate a treaty, and commit more war crimes, then this does nothing to address the legal liabilty that the US leadership would face for having failed to comly with treaties, as was the violation at Nuremburg. Hitler said, "Those treaties do not apply," which the Nuremburg Court said (years later) -- you've unlawfully abrogated a treaty that applies to all belligerents, regardless whether they are or are not signatories to the Conventions.

    The Congress has no power to say that a treaty obligation is not longer applicable when that obligation is one that is recognized as a defense of American civilians, unless it hopes to ignore the precedent of Nuremburg: The Conventions apply to conduct of all belligerents, regardless their agreement or disagreement with the applicaiblity of that requirement.

    If the Congress choose to abrogate the Geneva, then it is saying to American civilians, "You are now lawful targets for any nation in the world to wage war on you. We no longer can guarantee your protection. Because we ignore the laws of war, other nations may do the same against American civilians."

    . . .


    Although I understand (what you say) that the Court is only enforcing the Statute, not the Geneva Conventions . . .having a hard time convincing me that the enforcement of a Congressional statute -- that is consistent with/based on Geneva -- would not then, by implication, show that the Geneva Conventions are the law of the land; and that the Congressional statute, because it is linked with Geneva, is enforced; therefore, botht the law of the land, and the treaty obligations are getting enforced.

    Put another way, I fail to see how a claim that a Statute which enforces a Congressional statute, which is consistent with geneva, does not enforce that "foundational" treaty.

    This would be like (convoluted) arguing that

    A. because People breathe air,

    B. And because the person has been convicted of denying someone of air; that

    C. The person hasn't actually killed a person, they've merely restrained them from gettng oxygen;

    D. Because there's no law against denying something like a plant oxygen, that there's no crime committed;

    E. The laws apply only to humans, and do not explicitly prevent the denial of air.

    . . .

    Glenn: a Congressional response to try to ensure that these military commissions can proceed despite this decision

    Congress will have to do many things: Decide that Geneva is no longer applicable, therefore:

    A. Members of Congress cannot rely on the protections of Geneva when it comes to issues of war crimes, or their alleged assent to illegal war, as The Hague could conclude;

    B. No member of Congress could expect to be protected from possible rendition (by other states, actors, or other belligerents) as lawful retaliation on Members of Congress for failing to preserve the laws of war.

    Summary

    Even if the distinction is important, in no way will Congress have any credible defense if the US then says, as Hitler did, "These obligations are not longer applicable." The world community wll then realize that it's not just the Executive that is a threat, but the US and its entire citizen population.

    If Congress chooses to abrogate the treaty and permit vilations, then the world's nations could do what was done in WWII and find the US to be a rogue nation, and wage war (lawfully) against the US because it refuses to assent to civilized norms. That's where the US Congress hopes to take the US and world community, and says the US COngress is no different than the Germany Parliament which assented to the illegal war crimes.

    If Congress, using some twisted argument, says, "Geneva does not apply and has not been enforced" as an excuse to ignore the laws of war and permit illegal things, then the US Congress will have said, "We ignore the lessons of Germany in WWII."

    ReplyDelete
  69. Yes but, aren't we forgetting about WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?

    Here's a marvelous site for just that type of
    thing.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous6:26 PM

    Glenn,

    I second the question about signing statements.

    If the decision states that the Pres. has no authority to disobey the laws of Congress, even in times of National Security, does that override the President's signing statements that say just that, that he CAN ignore the law in times of National Security?

    I would think this decision might affect the Bush/Alito idea of the overriding power of the signing statements.

    Your legal opinion would be much appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous6:27 PM

    Bart (who is a practising lawyer in Colorado -ho ho ho- but spends more time on Glenn's blog each day than Rove spends on political maneuvering):

    Ha ha. You must have tres agita today.

    AGITA. noun.

    1.Heartburn or gastric distress.
    2.Giving you more aggravation than you can stand.
    3.To throw up in your mouth and then swallow it


    Who looks very old and tired to me are the four Opus Dei members of the Supreme Court. All that self-flaggelation and keeping up "appearances", doncha know, can be quite draining.........

    ReplyDelete
  72. I do not accept your contention that the enforcement of the Supremee court Congressional statute -- which is based on Geneva -- does not affirm the applicability of Geneva. You'll need to provide some cases to show that the difference is real; and that there's a credible showing that enforcing a statute, which is based on Geneva, is not the same as affirming/enforcing the fundamental document. . . .

    Said another way, and I do not mean this to be an attack on you personally Glenn, but the disction (in my view) sounds like a nuance I'd hear from Addington -- at the very heart of the claims in Hamden, which the Court has struck down.


    The Court expressly SAID this. I'm sorry if you wish that fact didn't exist. But it does.

    This is not my interpretation. It is what the Court said it was and was not doing. Have you read the decision?

    I have no vested interest in having that be true or not true. I read the decision and am describing what it said, not what I wish it said.

    The Congress has no power to say that a treaty obligation is not longer applicable when that obligation is one that is recognized as a defense of American civilians, unless it hopes to ignore the precedent of Nuremburg: The Conventions apply to conduct of all belligerents, regardless their agreement or disagreement with the applicaiblity of that requirement.

    Sorry, but this is absurd, and is also just false. You think that once a country enters into a treaty, it is bound forever, no matter what? Courts have expressly held that Congress and the President, having ratified a treaty, can expressly abrogate one. That is not even in dispute anywhere.

    Treaties are like any other law. Having been enacted, they can be rescinded. They do not occupy some special, super-high place in our constellation of laws. They are merely laws like any other.

    And you are mistaken when you say that Congress would have to abrogate the Genvea Conventions in order to overturn this decision. They could simply amend the UCMJ and take away the statutory requriement that military commissions adhere to the law of war.

    The distinction is not nearly as illogical as you are trying to suggest. The question is one of STANDING - whether a non-citizen would have the right to sue the President in a U.S. court to enforce a treaty obligation. The answer to that question is quite unclear - no matter how much you want such standing to exist.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Oops, here I go again. My bad, sorry. I'm such a dweeb!

    I keep forgetting how to make a link.

    http://www.impeachforpeace.org/ImpeachNow.html

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous6:32 PM

    Anonymous said...

    I second the question about signing statements.

    If the decision states that the Pres. has no authority to disobey the laws of Congress, even in times of National Security, does that override the President's signing statements that say just that, that he CAN ignore the law in times of National Security?

    I would think this decision might affect the Bush/Alito idea of the overriding power of the signing statements.

    Your legal opinion would be much appreciated.


    Signing statements have never been given any legal authority whatsoever. They are simply the President's personal legal opinion with which a Court can give whatever persuasive value it wishes.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous6:33 PM

    MDS... Yeah, you'd think a former JAG lawyer would be up on such things. Or, just perhaps, he is perfectly aware of the applicability of the Geneva Conventions, but wishes to continue dishonestly whoring for the White House. Party must always come before the law, you know. Why did we oppose the Soviet Union, again?

    You're joking, right? Purely economics. Rich corporate plutocrats and their Money. If you can't see that now, you never will. Get off of Hypatia's kool-aid.

    "Nothing is illegal if 100 businessman decide to do it."

    Andrew Young

    ReplyDelete
  76. If the decision states that the Pres. has no authority to disobey the laws of Congress, even in times of National Security, does that override the President's signing statements that say just that, that he CAN ignore the law in times of National Security?

    It depends what you mean by "CAN". In our system of government, the courts interpret the laws and everyone else is required to abide by them. So the President would be required to adhere to the law.

    But their theories say that any interference in the President's powers by any other branch - including the courts or Congress - is impermissible and unconstitutional. In their signing statements, they have expressly referred to the limited power of the judiciary.

    So, whether they consider themselves bound by rulings of the Supreme Court that they think are wrong (meaning - to the extent the Court's rulings, in their mind, impermissibly abridge presidential power) is something that is unknown. Only time will tell.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous6:36 PM

    Bart said regarding Bush signing statements: 'They are simply the President's personal legal opinion'

    My God, how could one possible argue with such the renown intellect of our scholarly beloved Leader!

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous6:39 PM

    So, whether they consider themselves bound by rulings of the Supreme Court that they think are wrong (meaning - to the extent the Court's rulings, in their mind, impermissibly abridge presidential power) is something that is unknown. Only time will tell.

    I have a pretty good guess.

    Bush at a press conference today:

    "Yeah, I -- thank you for the question on a, quote, "ruling" that literally came out in the midst of my meeting with the prime minister, and so I haven't had a chance to fully review the findings of the Supreme Court."


    Why the hell did he say "quote" before the word "ruling"?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Treaties are like any other law. Having been enacted, they can be rescinded. They do not occupy some special, super-high place in our constellation of laws. They are merely laws like any other.

    OR treaties can just be broken and ignored like every single treaty the U.S. ever made with the Native American.

    Come on, you know I had to say it.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous6:43 PM

    cynic: PS One can now imagine (if somewhat utopianly) that Bush et al. will have a warrant issued by the Hague for prosecution for crimes against humanity.

    cynic, you're a genius. Have a great holiday weekend.

    Same to Glenn, and all the non-fascists among us.

    PS. Below I quote from an email I got from a friend: atheist, life long Democrat, humanitarian, egalitarian, etc. I am simply confused as to why he now supports Bush's stance on Iraq, and writes things like this. Am I missing something? Every Muslim I myself know is different, as I have written here, and they are peaceful, pro-America hardworking people who wouldn't hurt a fly.

    So how does this friend of mine see it so differently? Can the people I respect on this blog (no, not you Bart) answer that question of mine?

    I think you would be shocked to see how quickly these extremists would
    kill u for a slightly 'wrong' idea, and how we would all be forced to
    pray to Mecca, and how especially women would be suppressed and
    tyranized, declitorized and bhukorized, shut up and owned, depoliticized
    and desexualized, except for ramant rape and the pleasure of men,
    excluded from education, work. ownership, business and pleasure.


    If I thought that was true of Muslims in general, especially with reference to their treatment of women, that would indeed make me very upset. It would make me despise them actually.

    Where's the truth here?

    ReplyDelete
  81. P.S. That site I tried to link to but failed is an umbrella site for groups seeking impeachment of this administration. The main page tells how to DIY. It's about do-it-yourself impeachment. They have a plan. I'm onboard.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous6:54 PM

    Bart, you're so smart, the Supremes so dumb, why ain't you up there on tha bench showin'em how it's done?

    Oh, right—you're not really a very good lawyer.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous6:55 PM

    If I thought that was true of Muslims in general, especially with reference to their treatment of women, that would indeed make me very upset. It would make me despise them actually.

    Where's the truth here?


    The truth is that your friend judges all Muslims by the actions and speech of the most extreme (and actually heretical) Muslims.

    Does your friend apply the same standard to Christians? The craziest of them advocate mass-murder of Muslims and hope to instigate the end of the world by fulfilling their (also heretical) interpretations of prophecy. This is hardly any less crazy than what Salafists and Wahabbists want, yet no one in this country judges all Christians by the actions of a few.

    Your friend is a bigot. I bet $20 he has read very little Muslim literature (books ABOUT Muslims by Christians do not count).

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous7:01 PM

    Bart: This holding is more than a little insane given that conspiracy is a well established common law crime going back centuries.

    I'm glad you clarified this for us. It can only mean one thing.

    Big Dick Cheney's going down!

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous7:02 PM

    I think you would be shocked to see how quickly these extremists would kill u for a slightly 'wrong' idea

    That also applies to our all-American extremists like Melanie “mainstream” Morgan who said that she would approve of Bill Keller going to the gas chamber. Or the “nice doggie” web site who calls for hanging Supreme Court Justices for this decision, or A.J. Strata who says, screw it, let’s just fry everyone in Gitmo. That’ll show the Supreme Court.

    Take a good look at what’s become of the activist base of your Republican Party – it is beneath contempt. As I look at the right-wing responses to this decision, I’m at a lost for words to express my disgust for these people.

    So I’ll let long-time Republican John Cole do it for me.

    Let’s put aside the inherent nihilism in this response- the first thought of Mr. Cochran is not how to fix the current situation, but the political opportunities made possible by this situation. A goodly portion of the mess this country is in can be traced to this mentality- political power comes first, the good of the country dead last.

    Let’s put aside the instinctive rush to simply find a way to do whatever the administration wants- this decision means nothing, it doesn’t mean we should step back and think about what we are doing- none of that. We are right, and let’s just find a way to do what we want to do, by hook or by crook.

    Put those aside, and there is still something even more offensive about this passage:


    “They will challenge the “judicial interference with national security” and challenge dissenting Congressmen and civil libertarians to either stand with the terrorists or the American people.”



    It never gets old, being told you are a traitor and in league with the terrorists because you disagree with current administration policy.

    Let me be the first to tell Andrew Cochran, whoever that is, to go fuck himself. Twice.


    The rule of law is a foreign concept to most of the modern-day Republican Party, they have no decency, and there is really nothing they are not capable of – and for the good of this country, and the world, they need to be stopped soon.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous7:05 PM

    As I predicted, this decision will be rapidly overridden by Congress:

    Sens. Graham and Kyl: "We intend to pursue legislation in the Senate granting the Executive Branch the authority to ensure that terrorists can be tried by competent military commissions. Working together, Congress and the administration can draft a fair, suitable, and constitutionally permissible tribunal statute."

    Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist echoed their comments and promised, "I will pursue the earliest possible action in the United States Senate."

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous7:18 PM

    Hamden Case [10 of 189]: "For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the military commission convened to try Hamdan lacks power to proceed because its structure and procedures violate both the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions.

    Glenn,

    This langauge explicitly contradicts what you are saying. The opinion states emphatically that their opinion and findings are based on their conclusion that the conduct, law, and other procedures/plans violate not only the Statute, but also the Convention.

    . . .

    Let's incorporate what you've argued above in the following discussion questions:

    A. How can someone argue that the Hamdent case does not enforce Geneva, yet the opinion says, "because its structure and procedures violate both the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions"

    B. How can we conclude that the court is not making any comment, nor enforcing geneva, when the court explicitly states, "We conclude"?

    C. How can a conclusion, that the court puts in writing, that finds that the plan-conduct-procdure-proposed procedures-tribunals do vilate Geneva, but we are asked to bleieve that that opinion makes no comment on Geneva?

    D. What is the basis to assert that the opinion narrowly applies to only the statute, yet the opinion explicitly states that the opinion related to their conclusion is based on the violation of both the statute and the Convention?

    E. Does "both" and "conclusion" mean something else, other than what the plain language means?

    . . .Others:

    6 of 185: "The procedures adopted to try Hamdan also violate the Geneva Conventions."

    F. How can something taht is found to "violate" Geneva, not be interepreted to read, "That conduct violates the Convention"

    G. When something explicitly says that the action-plan-procudure violates Geneva, why is it reasonable to asy that "this opinion does not enforce Geneva?

    . . .

    The US Supreme Court has an oath to the Constituion, which also includes all treaties. There is nothing that says SCOTUS cannot enforce GEneva; rather, this opinion affirms the opposite: That the Court can look at Geneva, and decide whether conduct-procedures-laws-plans-activities do or do not comply with the laws of war.

    H. What is the basis to assert that the SUprme Court has never, has not, and in this case, did not enforce Geneva?

    . . .

    70 of 189: "The procedures adopted to try Hamdan also violate the Geneva Conventions."

    I. How can anyone argue that a court opiion -- that says that procedures violate the Conventions -- is not enforcing that Convention?

    J. If they're "not enforcing" the Conventions, why are they bothering to mention the Conventions as a basis to decide whether the procedures are or are not violations of the US Statutes?

    K. If there was "no enforcement" of Geneva, how can we argue that that the enforcement only applies to the Statute, while the role of the court is to enforce the supreme law of the land: The Constitution, the statutes, and treaties?

    L. Are there times when the statutes, by their enforcement, can contradict a treaty obligation?

    M. How can any court officer, judicial officer, or member of Congress or the exeuctive branch assert that they are "enforcing" the Congressional statute, but their actions are unrelated to any SUpreme Court comment-opinion-enforcement of the treaty obligations?

    . . .

    There is no basis to assert that the Supmre Court opinion at any time has never enforced Geneva. Rather this opinion, when it enforces both the Statute and Geneva, explicitly reminds us of other enforcement of Geneva:

    Hamden 142 of 185: "Wirz was charged with conspiring to violate the laws of war,and that charge was supported with allegations that he personally committed a number of atrocities." The only way any court could conclude that the Wirz did or did not violate -- international laws of war -- Geneva -- was if they chose to enforce or not enforce Geneva.

    N. What basis is there to suggest that an enforcement of international law in Wirz is not an enforcement of international law?

    O. It is a different matter to "not enforce" and "to not sanction per the laws of war." One can enforce the law by choosing to review a situation and find that the law has not been violated.

    . . .

    It may be true that SCOTUS did not say (emphatically) that POTUS did or did nto violate the laws of war.

    However, the dissent is what is arguing, "The Court contends that Hamdan’s military commissionis also unlawful because it violates Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, see ante, at 65–72. Furthermore, Hamdan contends that his commission is unlawful because it violates various provisions of the Third Geneva Convention. These contentions are untenable."

    . . .

    Based on a plain reading of Hamden, it is clear that the dissent (at best) asserts the procedures do not violate Geneva, but this is irrelevant given the majority concluded the opposite: The the conduct vioaltes both Geneva and US Statutes.

    . . .

    Again, turningn back to the majority opition, 80 of 185 clearly states that the opinion makes a comment/finding/conclusion related to Geneva:

    "Common Article 3 obviously tolerates a great degree offlexibility in trying individuals captured during armed conflict; its requirements are general ones, crafted toaccommodate a wide variety of legal systems. But requirements they are nonetheless. The commission that the President has convened to try Hamdan does not meet those requirements.

    P. How can anyone argue that hamden does not enforce Geneva, yet in order to arrive at the conclusion about the Hamden trial, the court specifically says that the commisoin does not meet the requirements of Geneva?

    Q. How can anyone say that "geneva has not been enforced", while the Court specifically reviewed Geneva and concluded the violation occurred relative to both Geneva and US Statutes?

    . . .

    R. What textual referneces can anyone point to to justify any confidence that the enforcement action does not relate to Geneva?

    S. Which language distinguishes the enforcmenet-finding-conculsion that the conduct does or does not Geneva; and that this enforcement-opinion-rule is or is not the same as their enforcement relative to US Statutes?

    At best, the court is neutral on whether there is a distincion in whether there is or is not a different applicability-enforcement-violation of Geneva vs. US Statutes, in that both are treated the same:

    1. They are both violated;

    2. They are both subject to court review;

    3. They are both subject to enforcement by the court;

    4. This executive failed to respect either Geneva Article 3, or the UCMJ.

    Summation

    Again, after carefully reviewing your comments, I fail to see within Hamden that there is a unique enforcement of only statute, but not Geneva. Rather, the text clearly states taht there has been violations of both the Statuts and Geneva.

    If you have another view, feel free to cite specific text which shows there is a distinction between US Statutes and Geneva in how the court enforces them -- I'd be happy to review it.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous7:18 PM

    SAD ANGRY BART SAID - As I predicted, this decision will be rapidly overridden by Congress:

    1 - Nobody gives a fuck what you "predict".

    2 - Glen said in his post that Congress would quickly overturn this decision without difficult, you stupid egomaniac. Stop acting like you anticipated anything impressive. You dont have a creative bone in your body.

    3 - Congress CANT overturn the only part of the decision that matters: the part that says we dont have a King, even in the area of defense.

    Here is a great post from a law professor agreeing with everything Glen said - that this decision destroys the administration's claims on FISA and everything else -

    http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/2006/06/after_hamdan_re_1.html

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous7:19 PM

    Bart,

    I predict that congress will make a show of swift action, but I doubt that they will be sending any legislation to Jorge very soon.

    They had better get it done before January, though.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous7:20 PM

    Below, a quote from a comment at dKos. Hoping that Glenn or other knowledgable soul will comment.


    Might it be the case that "Kennedy writes a separate opinion in part so he doesn't have to sign his name to this particular travesty"?



    They dodge the issue of whether the Geneva Conventions really apply, and just go with Article 3, then make an argument that Article I of the 1977 convention (Which the US did not ratify) should establish what kind of trial they are entitled to.

    In short, if you want to see a really, really stupid International Law argument, check out page 70 of the ruling. Kennedy writes a separate opinion in part so he doesn't have to sign his name to this particular travesty. Good for him."
    [Emphasis in original]

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous7:22 PM

    Glenn:

    You said: You are entirely right in what you say here, and I tried to acknowledge that in the way I made my point (although it was murky).

    But, if there is no direct cause of action to enforce Geneva Convention obligations by non-citizen detainees, what would it really matter if the Supreme Court held that Article 3 covers all detainees? It has political significance, but what legal significance would it have?


    Putting to one side the large political influence this holding could have, AMK highlighted one potential ramification:

    "By Act of Congress, moreover, violations of Common Article 3 are considered 'war crimes,' punishable as federal offenses, when committed by or against United States nationals and military personnel. See 18 U.S.C. § 2441." (Kennedy Slip. Op. at 7).

    The defense, pre-Hamdan, to a charge under § 2441 was that Common Article 3 did not apply to terrorists. So said the OLC. Now, the USSC says the OLC is wrong as to the scope of Common Article 3, and, per § 2441, any "United States national" who violates Common Article 3 is committing a war crime (punishable by death).

    That's a decent stick -- though I concede that it would probably require this administration to actually prosecute.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Again, after carefully reviewing your comments, I fail to see within Hamden that there is a unique enforcement of only statute, but not Geneva. Rather, the text clearly states taht there has been violations of both the Statuts and Geneva.

    I'm sorry, but I have explained this to you twice and I honestly don't know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps someone else can try.

    It turns on the issues of STANDING and JURISDICTION. Just because the government acts in contravention of a law does not mean that someone can sue in court and compel the government to comply. Standing is required.

    Additionally, the Court does not have jurisdiction over every single type of claim and dispute, only over certain types.

    The Court is saying that EVEN IF the Government acts in violation of the Geneva Convention, it is unclear if the Court can do anything about that - can entertain a claim to force the administration to comply - because standing and/or jurisdiction may be lacking.

    But here, the Court does not need to resolve those questions -- it does not need to decide if it can rule on such a claim - becasue that's not the claim here. The Court is merely being asked to enforce a Congressional statute (the UCMJ), which requires compliance with the Geneva Conventions.

    Thus, in the absence of that statute, you would have the circumstance where the Court specifically said that it has doubts about its ability to rule - i.e., where the Court is asked to enforce the Geneva Convention itself in the absence of a statute.

    Having said that I won't try again, I guess I just did. Again, I will ask you - did you read the opinion? The Court said EXACTLy what I just described, and once it's available in HTML, I will be happy to excerpt the relevant passage for you.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Prediction:

    the Bush administration will drag its feet with compliance, hoping for a legislative remedy or, alternatively, a new vacancy on the Supreme Court. Bush views the Court as just a different kind of legislature, and one that he will ignore as much as possible when they rule against him. Certainly the DoD has already shown their lack of interest in SCOTUS rulings.

    The "quote" in Bush's statement is priceless. I think it shows perfectly that he doesn't view SCOTUS as a co-equal branch of the government.

    You would think somebody so lacking in competence would discover humility at some point in his life.

    ReplyDelete
  94. And you know with mid-term elections around the corner our Republican Congress will clear the slate of all other business to push this through.

    Unless citizens start raising hell about this, and threatening with votes, we're screwed. Anyone know how we can attach this issue to immigration?

    Nice analysis, Glenn, as usual.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Glenn:

    In the absence of that Congressional requirement -- i.e., if Congress amends that law to get rid of that requirement -- it is far, far from certain that the Court would conclude that it can enforce the Geneva Conventions directly against the administration in a suit brought by a non-citizen.


    In fact, a quick google suggested that the court simply declared that the last rule made is the one that holds, in Breard vs. Greene.

    I remember having heard that the court said that it wouldn't (or couldn't) enforce a treaty... but it's a vague memory, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know if the source for that statement was a lawyer, either.

    ReplyDelete
  96. HWSNBN is clueless once again:

    Indeed, Hamdan's only chance of being freed anytime soon is if he is acquitted at the trial that the Supremes refuse to allow to proceed.

    Oh, nonsense. Even if he gets a trial or court martial and is acquitted, Dubya would claim power to hold him indefinitely for the duration of the Great War On A Noun.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  97. In case no one knows it yet, here is bush's response to the Supreme Court decision:

    Ruling won't affect Guantanamo camp: commander
    By Jane Sutton

    GUANTANAMO BAY U.S. NAVAL BASE (Reuters) - The
    Pentagon on Thursday reaffirmed the need for the Guantanamo prison even though the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the system of military tribunals put in place to try the prisoners.

    The prison commander had earlier said such a ruling would not affect the running of the camp and prisoners' lawyers said it may do little to secure their freedom in the short term.

    Senior administration officials, briefing reporters on condition of anonymity, said the ruling "will have no impact" on the detention of any of the prisoners now at Guantanamo or the status of the prison.

    "Today's decision does not in any way affect the ability of the president as commander in chief to detain enemy combatants. It goes only to the question of trial by military commission," one official said.


    This sounds like a bullfight to ME.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous7:44 PM

    bart said...
    As I predicted, this decision will be rapidly overridden by Congress


    If your other pronouncements, predictions and prognostications are any accurate measure, this proposal will meet the same fate as the "Family Values Agenda" and no one will show up for the vote. They don't have absentee ballots in Congress yet.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous7:45 PM

    OK. Here is a wonderful present for everyone before celebrating this weekend where we celebrate the country which was the single greatest in history. A new article by Paul Craig Roberts! I will print in its entirety as I ususally do, because his words are always worth reading, and to the anon who always leaps up to tell me to just put a few paragraphs (Manchurian mind control wannabe book burner freak) I say, scroll....

    June 29, 2006
    The High Price of American Gullibility

    by Paul Craig Roberts

    What explains the gullibility of Americans, a gullibility that has mired the U.S. in disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that promises war with Iran, North Korea, and a variety of other targets if neoconservatives continue to have their way?

    Part of the explanation is that millions of conservatives are thrilled at the opportunity to display their patriotism and to show their support for their country. Bush's rhetoric is perfectly designed to appeal to this desire. "You are with us or against us" elicits a blind and unquestioning response from people determined to wear their patriotism on their sleeves. "You are with us or against us" vaccinates Americans against factual reality and guarantees public acceptance of administration propaganda.

    Another part of the explanation is that emotional appeals have grown the stronger as the ability of educated people to differentiate fact from rhetoric declines. The Bush administration blamed 9/11 on foreign intelligence failures; yet, the administration has convinced about half of the public that mass surveillance of American citizens is the solution!

    Many Americans have turned a blind eye to the administration's illegal and unconstitutional spying on the grounds that, as they themselves are doing nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear. If this is the case, why did our Founding Fathers bother to write the Constitution? If the executive branch can be trusted not to abuse power, why did Congress pass legislation establishing a panel of federal judges (ignored by the Bush administration) to oversee surveillance? If President Bush can decide that he can ignore statutory law, how does he differ from a dictator? If Bush can determine law, what is the role of Congress and the courts? If "national security" is a justification for elevating the power of the executive, where is his incentive to find peaceful solutions?

    Emotional appeals to fear and to patriotism have led close to half of the population to accept unaccountable government in the name of "the war on terrorism." What a contradiction it is that so many Americans have been convinced that safety lies in the sacrifice of their civil liberties and accountable government.

    If so many Americans cannot discern that they have acquiesced to conditions from which tyranny can arise, how can they understand that it is statistically impossible for the NSA's mass surveillance of Americans to detect terrorists?

    Floyd Rudmin, a professor at a Norwegian university, writing at CounterPunch.org applies the mathematics of conditional probability, known as Bayes' Theorem, to demonstrate that the NSA's surveillance cannot successfully detect terrorists unless both the percentage of terrorists in the population and the accuracy rate of their identification are far higher than they are. He correctly concludes that "NSA's surveillance system is useless for finding terrorists."

    The surveillance is, however, useful for monitoring political opposition and stymieing the activities of those who do not believe the government's propaganda.

    Another reason for the gullibility of Americans is their lack of alternative information to government propaganda. The independence of print and TV media disappeared in the media consolidations of the 1990s. Today a handful of large corporations own the traditional media. The wealth of these corporations consists of broadcast licenses, which the companies hold at the government's discretion. Newspapers are run by corporate executives, whose eyes are on advertising revenue and who shun contentious reporting. The result is that the traditional media are essentially echo chambers for government propaganda.

    The Internet and the foreign news media accessible through the Internet are the sources of alternative information. Many Americans have not learned to use and to rely on the Internet for information.

    Many Americans find the government's message much more reassuring than the actual facts. The government's message is: "America is virtuous. Virtuous America was attacked by evil terrorists. America is protecting itself by going to war and overthrowing regimes that sponsor or give shelter to terrorists, erecting in their place democracies loyal to America."

    Sugarcoated propaganda doesn't present Americans with the emotional and mental stress associated with the hard facts.

    In National Socialist Germany, by the time propaganda lost its grip, Germans were in the hands of a police state. It was too late to take corrective measures. Not even the military could correct the disastrous policies of the executive. In the end, Germany was destroyed. Does a similar fate await Americans?


    --Thanks to antiwar.com and Creators Syndicate.
    As a personal aside, Mr. Robert's mention of Bayes' Theroem sure gets my attention. I spent the two years before I discovered Glenn's blog and the blogosphere on Bayes' Theroem. It's not for everyone, but for those into logic there is nothing in this world more fun and exciting and challenging.

    That's a world which is like Shangri-la. It's you, your mind and Bayes' Theorem. Harmonic bliss which comes from being involved in pure logic, absent all this madness....

    Unfortunately that reminds me of the quote by Sartre:

    Hell is other people.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous7:45 PM

    On ABC News just now, John Yoo said he was “shocked” by this ruling, and suggested that there is nothing to prevent the detainees from not. getting a trial, that they should just be held, without trial, until the end of the “war on terrorism” – which, as we know, will never end.

    The decision said that was fine, according to him – and ABC News.

    Shorter Yoo – this decision is meaningless.

    ReplyDelete
  101. HWSNBN states the obvious:

    As I predicted, this decision will be rapidly overridden by Congress:

    Sens. Graham and Kyl: "We intend to pursue legislation in the Senate granting the Executive Branch the authority to ensure that terrorists can be tried by competent military commissions. Working together, Congress and the administration can draft a fair, suitable, and constitutionally permissible tribunal statute."

    Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist echoed their comments and promised, "I will pursue the earliest possible action in the United States Senate."


    Of course. There's an election coming up.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous7:50 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Bart,

    I predict that congress will make a show of swift action, but I doubt that they will be sending any legislation to Jorge very soon.

    They had better get it done before January, though.


    Fire this troll! He just implied the pukes will lose the House and Senate in November! Actually he just admitted what they all know is coming. He's not guessing. Wanna see what a real "slam dunk" looks like, girls?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Shorter EWO... Look! I've found a paleoconservative! And one who write for VDARE! If Hypatia thinks WFB, Jr. is a garden variety racist, Paul Craig Roberts wears a sheet. He's against all wars that might improve the lot of brown peoples!

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous8:10 PM

    Glenn,

    The court specifically mentioned both Geneva and US Statutes. Even if the COngress said something did or didn't apply, the treaty oblibation would still be in full force.

    {1} You fail to cite any text: "The Court expressly SAID this. I'm sorry if you wish that fact didn't exist. But it does."

    (2) You provide no textual references. "This is not my interpretation. It is what the Court said it was and was not doing."

    (3) This question applies to the legal community: Have you read the decision?" You provide not links or textual references; we judge you have not read the case.

    (4) You fail to cite any text "I have no vested interest in having that be true or not true. I read the decision and am describing what it said, not what I wish it said." Irrelevant.

    (5) If the US decides to abrogate Geneva, then there's no sense in relying on the US government to defend the coutnry. "Sorry, but this is absurd, and is also just false. You think that once a country enters into a treaty, it is bound forever, no matter what? Courts have expressly held that Congress and the President, having ratified a treaty, can expressly abrogate one. That is not even in dispute anywhere." If the US chooses to ignore the laws of war, then all other nations do not have to follow those laws when interacting with American civilians.

    You fail to distinguish between a "diplomatic treaty" and "the laws of war" which apply, regardless whether you agree or do not agree to follow them. Under the principle of reciprocity, if one nation -- regardless their assent to, or non-agreement to the laws of war -- vilates the laws of war, other nations under teh laws of war (wich still apply to the international conflict) woudl subject the US to sanctions.

    The issue isn't simpyl the parties, but whether the dispute is international. The US may choose to say "We do not agree with Geneva, and abrogate it," but the US, would actually still be bond by Genevea because of the international charater. Converesely, if the US argues "this doe snot apply," then no other nation, even those who signed teh treaty, need to respect any provision the US ignores, disrgards or violates.

    The Geneva Conventions apply to disputes, regardless whether the US Congress chooses to make or not make rules permitting violations of the treaty.

    (6) This may be true, but once the US ignroes Geneva, then all other combatants may ignore Geneva as well. "Treaties are like any other law. Having been enacted, they can be rescinded. They do not occupy some special, super-high place in our constellation of laws. They are merely laws like any other."

    - Treaties, as you are thinking of them, are between two parties. Geneva is different: It relates to disputes; not the same. Congress can't make a rule or pass a law that permits violationsn of Geneva, even if the US deccides to ignore Geneva. Rather, if Congress decides to abrogate Geneva (as it has effectively done), then no other nation need to respect any provision which the US has abrogated, violated, or said does not apply.

    Yet, in teh end, when teh war crimes trials start, there is no defense for the US which has, as Hitler did, abrogated a treaty that should still apply. The point is that by abrogating Geneva, the US would be doing what Hitler did: Ignoring the applicaiblity of treaties that were in force at the time of the action, as opposed to the proposed Congressional action which would retroactively state as of 2006, all combat oeprations starting in 2001 are no longer subject to Geneva. That's ex post facto and absurd.

    . . .

    Here's the language: Ref: If they retain their full civil statut, then they cannot be tried by military tribuinals.

    Rather, the US COngcess and Executive Branch are deferring back to the President to say, he alone can decide whether a person is or isn't a civilian. There were people who were just picked up; yet there are prisoners who have never been found to have any evidence of having been engaged in hostilities. The point is that there are treaty obligations that apply to all people -- regarldess whether the US does or does not agree with that treaty. Conversely, if the US Congress wants to ignore the laws of war; then other nations -- who may or may not follow the Conventions -- do not have to ensure the protocoals are protected, enforced, or respected. This is under the principle of reciprocity.

    (7) Aha!

    "And you are mistaken when you say that Congress would have to abrogate the Genvea Conventions in order to overturn this decision. They could simply amend the UCMJ and take away the statutory requriement that military commissions adhere to the law of war."

    If they "dont' have to adhere to the laws of war", what good is it to have a treaty? Also, this "remedy" doesn't address the second prong of the opinion which was not narrowly confined to the stutute enforcement, but also whethere or not the Commissions did or didn't comply with Geneva. Changing the US rules as to whether Commissions do or do not complywith geneva, doesn't address the fact that the provisions/procedures -- hwoever COngress may choose to define them as "not having to comply with the laws of war" -- will still violate the laws of war.

    The only way that Congress can or cannot comment on amending UCMJ was if the Court found that Geneva did not apply. But in Hamden, they found that the Commission, putting aside the issue of Statute, violated Geneva as well.

    Thus, this Congressional approach sould fail: "They could simply amend the UCMJ and take away the statutory requriement that military commissions adhere to the law of war"

    How else will the laws of war apply or not apply, unless Congress ensures that there are rules that ensure compliance with Geneva? No answer.

    Rather, Geneva would still apply: That the tribunals review evidence, treat belligerents with respect, and give them the chance to be heard. Congress can't say, "This COmmission doesn't have to follow international law," all the while saying, "We are following international law."

    Moreover, it would be a violation of Article 82 for any lawyer to craft langauge of any procedure that violates Geneva.

    If the US wants to ignore Geneva, then there is no requirement that any other nation follow the laws of war, nor be constrained. This provision isn't simply whether the US is or isn't bound; but whether (under the principel of reciprocity) other nations, who may be bound, do or do not have to follow the laws of war -- even if they are signatories. Under the laws of war, any combatants which has violated any rule is subject to having that rule violated against them. This is the principle of reciprocity.

    If the Congress says that the "laws of war do not apply" or that "procedures of Commission do not neet do meet the laws of war" then no other nation needs to ensure that the laws of war related to tribunals are appliable, or that their procedures have to comly with Geneva either.

    (8) You've failed to capture the second Prong of the Hamden case -- it's not just what the Congress does or doesn't do; but whether the Geneva conventions, under the principle of reciprocity, are or are not followed. It is a narrow view of the case to look at only whether the rules/procedures do or do not get changed by Congress; or whether they do or do not follow Geneva. The other half, is whether the US, by not ensuring that procedures do follow the laws of war, whether the US -- because of that choice -- is found to have committed a violation of the laws of war; or is subject to having its civilians and military similarly subjected to provisions, reviews, and procedures which do not comply with the laws of war.

    "The distinction is not nearly as illogical as you are trying to suggest. The question is one of STANDING - whether a non-citizen would have the right to sue the President in a U.S. court to enforce a treaty obligation. The answer to that question is quite unclear - no matter how much you want such standing to exist."

    This is a different issue than what you originally said: Whether the court did or did not enforce Geneva. The issue here is whether the commissions do or do not violate Genevea. Even if the US laws were changed, the other half of the Hadment finding, would be not addressed: That the Commissions violated Geneva.

    . . .

    Congress can make a law that permits commissions to be enacted -- that is only part of the issue.

    If the COngressionally-directed procedures -- whatever they are -- violate Geneva, then that wold still be a violation of Geneva.

    Example: Article 93 specifically mentions that trials cannot be conducted against those who are trying to escape. Using your construction, if the COngress says that the trials need not comply with Geneva, then they could conduct a trial to review what is otherwise merely an act only subject to administrative proceedings. Once the Congress says, "We don't have to ensure these trials comply with the laws of war," then (under the laws of reciprocity) once US troops are captured, any lawful attempt to escape (not punishable through a trial), can be punished with a trial.

    Ex: Article 95: Once someone is put in confinement, if the Congress says that the trials need not comly with the laws of war, then (under the principle of reciprocity) any US troop put in confinement can be subject to trial procedures which violate the laws of war.


    . . .


    Summary

    So you're saying that military commissions, if they are, by an act of Congress, permitted to violate Geneva, that would be permissible? Then that would amount to conduct that violates the laws of war; and permits other nations -- signatories to Geneva or not -- to reciproate, and crate tribuinals that do not follow Geneva.

    Reciprocity is not something isolated to combat, but relates to how prisoners are treated on and off the battlefiled. PRisoners, whether they are combatants or civilans, enjoy protectsion so long as their nations follow the laws of war. If the US chooses to ignore the laws of war, then other nations may choose to subject others -- that they arbitrarily decide as being combatants -- as being lawful tarets, yet they have only been so-found to be combatants/belligenerents because "their laws" permit civilians who may indirctly support a war to be a combatant.

    The point is that if Congress is allowd to make a rule that ignores/violates/does not follwo the laws of war, then other nations may do the same and subject civilians -- who are absurdly classified as combatants -- to retribution. The Conventions prohibit civilians from being subject to retalation; but if the US is not going to follow this provision, then the US cannot enforce this rule against other nations who also violate the prohibition.

    If the US Congress wants to make rules that "do not have to follow international laws" or "create commissions that do not respect international laws" then that is something the world can take note, and lawfully reciprocate: Not permit any US citizen, lawyer, soldier, or governmetn official to enjoy any procedural rights in a war crimes trial in other country after they are captured in America and rendered elsewhere for torture.

    Whatever the US decides to ignore, other nations may do the same.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous8:14 PM

    Longer Yoo

    "I better get the hell out of Dodge before they start writing up the war crimes indictments."

    Time to start working on my screenplay for "Judgment at Gitmo".

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous8:22 PM

    If I thought that was true of Muslims in general, especially with reference to their treatment of women, that would indeed make me very upset. It would make me despise them actually.


    Scratch any brand of fundamentalist (Muslim or Christian or Jewish) and you find somone who want to control women's bodies.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Getting back for just a moment to first principles, can somebody (and I'm thinking Bart would be good at this) please explain why the administration is leading us on this merry dance?

    Stop for a moment and consider that in this country we have one of if not the most highly evolved judicial systems on the planet, a system that has been able to cope with just about every bizarre civil and criminal challenge thrown at it.

    Meanwhile, we in parallel our highly evolved UCMJ, which has also been tested again and again and never found to be wanting in a way that could not be fixed without becoming unrecognizable.

    On a larger scale, we've dealt in the past with various malefactors on a world historical scale. Systems were evolved and are still in place for the treatment of criminals whose behavior transcends national borders. Nuremburg alone was proof of the confidence we can place in such efforts.

    So somebody remind us, please: Why does the administration have to invent a whole new legal fabric in order to deal with a bunch of jumped-up international criminals? Why is it absolutely mandatory to so distort several millenia of legal evolution to the point that among the malefactors sequestered in Guantanamo we have known innocents still rotting, months or years after their lack of culpability in anything has been established?

    Again, what was so wrong with thousands of years of accumulated wisdom that we have to jump back hundreds or even thousands of years and attempt to reinvent justice?

    Bart, could you please explain this?

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous8:38 PM

    Scratch any brand of fundamentalist (Muslim or Christian or Jewish) and you find somone who want to control women's bodies.

    Read A Handmaid's Tale back-to-back with Prayers for the Assassin and ask yourself which possible future is more plausible. (hint, it's the better-written one :))

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous8:46 PM

    As I thought, this decision will probably be rapidly overridden by Congress:

    Sens. Graham and Kyl: "We intend to pursue legislation in the Senate granting the Executive Branch the authority to ensure that terrorists can be tried by competent military commissions. Working together, Congress and the administration can draft a fair, suitable, and constitutionally permissible tribunal statute."

    Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist echoed their comments and promised, "I will pursue the earliest possible action in the United States Senate."

    ReplyDelete
  110. So you're saying that military commissions, if they are, by an act of Congress, permitted to violate Geneva, that would be permissible?

    Yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying, becaúse it's exactly what the Court said. I really give up trying to figure out a way to get you to understand this. Perhaps Yale Law Professor Jack Balkin has explained this point in a way that will get through to you:
    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/06/hamdan-as-democracy-forcing-decision.html. He says:

    The reason why the President is bound by these requirements is because Congress passed the UCMJ and because the UCMJ uses the laws of war-- which include the Geneva Conventions-- as a benchmark for procedures in military commissions. So when Congress acts under its constitutional authority to regulate military justice, as it has throughout the country's history, the President must abide by those regulations.

    But note: If Congress decides to alter the UCMJ and override the Geneva Conventions, the President can have his military tribunals with procedures as unfair as he wants. But that would require that Congress publicly decide (1) that it no longer wanted to abide by the principle of uniformity announced in the UCMJ, . . .


    If that isn't clear enough, then read Stephen Bryer's concurrence, in which he expressly says that Congress can go and override the Court's decision if it wants to.

    And finally, read this passage, from Section VI(D)(1) of the Court's opinion:

    Whatever else might be said about the Eisentrager footnote, it does not control this case. We may assume that “the obvious scheme” of the 1949 Conventions is identical in all relevant respects to that of the 1929 Convention,57 and even that that scheme would, absent some other provision of law, preclude Hamdan’s invocation of the Convention’s provisions as an independent source of law binding the Government’s actions and furnishing petitioner with any enforceable right.58 For, regardless of the nature of the rights conferred on Hamdan, cf. United States v. Rauscher, 119 U. S. 407 (1886) , they are, as the Government does not dispute, part of the law of war. See Hamdi, 542 U. S., at 520–521 (plurality opinion). And compliance with the law of war is the condition upon which the authority set forth in Article 21 is granted.

    Do you understand that? The Court is expressly ackonwledging that established legal principles might "preclude Hamdan’s invocation of the Convention’s provisions as an independent source of law binding the Government’s actions." But the Court says that question doesn't matter here, because the Petitioner is seeking to enforce a Congressional statate mandating compliance with the Geneva Conventions, and NOT THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS ITSELF.

    Seriously, carefully read Jack Balkin's post and Jusitce Breyer's Concurrence, along with Section VI(D)(1) of the Court's opinion. If you are at all interested in knowing the answer, rather than wanting to prove the outcome is what you WISH it were, you will see what the Court is and is not doing. There are not two sides to this question.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous8:50 PM

    Bart,

    Methinks Senator Frist will have about as much success with that as he had with the whole Schiavo debacle.

    He's a slow learner.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous8:54 PM

    Ooops!

    Sorry for the repost of the Congressional quotes. I came home an unpacked my laptop and the site gave me a message that the post had not been accepted.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous8:55 PM

    dbostrom said...

    So somebody remind us, please: Why does the administration have to invent a whole new legal fabric in order to deal with a bunch of jumped-up international criminals? Why is it absolutely mandatory to so distort several millenia of legal evolution to the point that among the malefactors sequestered in Guantanamo we have known innocents still rotting, months or years after their lack of culpability in anything has been established?

    Bart, could you please explain this?


    Mr. Bush is doing nothing new.

    Military commissions or their equivalent were first used by Washington during the Revolution and have been used up through WWII.

    There are entire treatises on the use of these commissions to which the Supremes cited.

    Go read the opinion to which Glenn linked. The Supremes do a fair job reviewing the history and law of military commissions.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous9:09 PM

    Bart,

    I'm going to need your help on this.

    . . .

    Glenn,

    There are two issues here. First, is the court opinion, which you appear to have not read.

    Second, is the argument you're making.

    . . .

    You first started off stating that the court is only enforcing statutes, not Geneva.

    This is incorrect, in that the procedures, as the court said many times, violated Geneva.

    Now, you're changing the argument to whether or not there is or isn't standing, but you're ignoring the central flaw of your original point: You've failed to provide any text to show why the point is or isn't valid.

    . . .

    Anon: Again, after carefully reviewing your comments, I fail to see within Hamden that there is a unique enforcement of only statute, but not Geneva. Rather, the text clearly states taht there has been violations of both the Statuts and Geneva.

    Glenn: I'm sorry, but I have explained this to you twice and I honestly don't know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps someone else can try.

    Glenn: It turns on the issues of STANDING and JURISDICTION. Just because the government acts in contravention of a law does not mean that someone can sue in court and compel the government to comply. Standing is required.

    Glenn: "Additionally, the Court does not have jurisdiction over every single type of claim and dispute, only over certain types. Putting aside you have cited no examples that are relevant, Congress may not deny the Superme Court the power to review a treaty violation, and whether Congressional rules do or do not violate the treaty obligations. [Marbury]

    This is incorrect:

    Glenn: "The Court is saying that EVEN IF the Government acts in violation of the Geneva Convention, it is unclear if the Court can do anything about that - can entertain a claim to force the administration to comply - because standing and/or jurisdiction may be lacking."

    Incorrect. The court found that the issue of standing has no bearing on whether the detainee/prisoner was subject to Geneva: He was; thus, the Court has adjudicated that Geneva is enforced. The opposite (that the Court may have no say is irrelevant) in that this has already been decided (in this case, disagreeing with the lower court), and the Supreme Court found that the commissions violated both US law and Geneva.

    Glenn: "But here, the Court does not need to resolve those questions -- it does not need to decide if it can rule on such a claim - becasue that's not the claim here. The Court is merely being asked to enforce a Congressional statute (the UCMJ), which requires compliance with the Geneva Conventions."

    The converse is not true: That the court has or has not enforced Geneva. Clearly it has: By ruling the commissions violate Geneva and US Statutes, that amoutns to an enforcement action.
    Thus, in the absence of that statute, you would have the circumstance where the Court specifically said that it has doubts about its ability to rule - i.e., where the Court is asked to enforce the Geneva Convention itself in the absence of a statute.

    . . .

    Citations

    Glenn: "The Court said EXACTLy what I just described, and once it's available in HTML, I will be happy to excerpt the relevant passage for you."

    Feel free to use this link to cite the text: Copy the text from PDF, and post here. If the issue is that you do not have an odbe reader, so state, and I'll show you how to convert it to HTML.: Click convert here.

    . . .

    The issue of standing, whether it is or isn't in the case, is meaingless to your origianl point -- whether there has or has not been a Supreme Court enforcmeent of Geneva.

    Despite clear text to the contrary, your argumetn fails to persuade anyone that the Court did not enforce Geneva. The court explicitly said that the procedures violate Geneva -- that amounts to an enforcement action. Whether there are or are not sanctions as a reulst of that violation is up [a] to the lower court, and [b] subsequent actions other nations may choose to bring on the battlefield. If the US system refuses to civially resolve these issues in any court, other nations may choose to resolve the dipuste on the battlefield.

    . . .

    You stated that the court did not enforce Geneva; yet the court found that the procedures violated both US Statute, and Geneva. This amounts to a court finding that Geneva can be, and was, enforced.

    I understand what you are saying about standing, and that the US rules on the commissions say that prisoners can or cannot have standing. That is one issue.

    The second issue, under Geneva, which applies, is that the prisoners have to be treated in a specific way. That is the second prong.

    If the US decides to state that a specific prisoner/detainee/civilian can or cannot sue in court, that is one thing; the larger issue, under Geneva, is whether the US has the power to make a rule on standing that would deny someone the chance to have their case heard.

    For example, if someone is innoceent and a civilian, the US could make a rule that says the miltary commission could apply and exist, and violate Geenva; yet the Convenetion requirements would still be enforcable, even through the US was ignoring them.

    In turn, if the US is not going to follow GEneva, then under the principle of reciprocity, as a sanction, the opposing force may choose to ignore the Geneva Conventions, and smiilarly deny others the right to any trial.

    I do not dispute the issue what the US may choose to ignore or not ignore Geneva; or that there may be a US-perception fo standing; or that the Supreme Court may choose to do or not do something.

    The issue is: If the US chooses to internally -- through the three branches -- resolve the issues, and leave it up to "whatever happens, happens"-mentality, that is fine. The issue then becomes: What are the remedies other nations may take given the US has chosen to ignore Geneva; and where, despite the relevance of Geneva, the US refuses to act in a civil manner; or the courts say, "We have no role." If nothing is done and there is no resolution, foreign combatants may choose to take the dispute to the battlefiled. Thus the issue of "standing" (in arguing that we can or cannot hear the issue) is meaingless to those who have a valid claim that Geneva applies, it should be enforced, but the US system refuses to embrace the applicability of Geneva.

    . . .

    But getting back to your orignal point: The issue of the court is that it found that the Geneva Convention is applicable; it has been enforced; and those provisions require the US to do and not do things, regardless what Congress does or does not do.

    Overall, your argument fails because rather than cite the text that says Geneva does or does not apply (it does), was enforced (it was); and you've changed your argument to whether or not there is or isnt' standaing. This may be a valid point with respect to the case; but it doesn't have any bearing on whether the Court did or didn't enforce Geneva: Geneva applies and this court has enforced it.

    As you well know, standing and the point about what the court did or didn't enforce are interwoven, not the same, but nuianced. Getting back to your original point, it is possible to enforce the US law and by extraction, find -- as teh court emphatically said -- that the US conduct violated both the US Statute and Geneva. That is a court opinion on the enforcement of Geneva: Whether it is or is not applicable, and whether there is or is not a violation of Geneva; again, if the US makes rules which violate Geenva, taht is a violation of Geneva.

    . . .

    Let's consdier the first prong in terms of standing. If you look at page 2-3 of 185, you'll see in para 1 that the terms of standing are important; but the larger issue of Geneva enforcement is in another section of the opinion.

    Thus, you are correct that there is an issue of standing; but this does not support or refute your statement on whether the case does or does not enforce Geneva. Standing under US law is not the same as what the court said about Geneva. This is a red herring argument.

    . . .

    The issue, from a national policy perspective, is whether Congress wants to create commissions that do or do not follow the laws of war; and then expect to be held to some special sort of respect; or have any basis to bring suit when US citizens/civilians/troops are detained by other foreign fighters.

    Using your construction, and the Supreme Court, the US if it chooses to make rules which do not follow Geneva, will simply be saying, "We can make rules which prevent people from hearing their claims; and denying them a fair trial; and keeping them from having any access to the courts."

    That is not civilized. It may be what is possible, but it is not consistent with the principle of "the right to be heard" which the court in Hamdii (not Hamden) affirmed.

    If the US COngress wants to make rules that deny that right to be heard, tha tis fine: But it is wholly at odds with the US COnstituion, and the principles of the Geneva Convneetions: To protect innocent, remain civil, and ensure that combat is isolated to the region of hostiligiates, and is not forever waged against those not involved in combat.

    Clearly, the court can make a rule that says how Commissions will be operated; however this does not address the second finding/enforcement obligation: What if that rule violates Geneva? If the US SUpreme Court says, "We have no position, and the innocent civilian has no standing to be heard" then the US effectively says, "Ignore Geneva, ignore precedenet, and keep them back in limbo." That is not satisfactory.

    Congess does not have the power to deny the Courts the power to review juridiction on matters related to treaty obligations. To do so would defy Marbury which affirmed the courts role in reviewing matters, regardless whether they were legislative or executive powers; domestic, or international law. Againk for Congress to say, "This cannot be reviewed" is a usurpation of Judicial power which, under the Constitution, belongs with the court to decide: "Is the Congressional ban on our review (of statute, treaty, or other matters) Constitutional?" The answer, arguably, is, "No."

    Summary

    1. Your argument fails. You've failed to focuse on the origianl point (whether there is or is not SUpreme Court enforcement of Geneva, there is) and you've shifted the argument to whether there is or isn't standing. That is a moving argument, and not credible.

    2. The Supreme Court cannot be banned from reviewing legal issues related to US statutes, treatment of others, especially when the Conventions compel detaining powers to treat civilians civilly. If the Congress can deny the Court the power to review matters of compliance, then the Congress is stating that Congressional-Executive joint assent to war crimes is not reviewable. That is absurd.

    3. You need to provide textual referneces. You've been given the link above on how to do this.

    4. You are a good writer, but you are shifting your argument from [a] whether the Court did or didn't enforce Geneva (which it did); to [b] whether or not there is an issue of standing.

    5. You haven't addressed the textual references above. You may be correct, but this is your argument to make: Why is there no court enforcement of Geneva, despite their assertions that the commission violate both Geneva and US Statute.

    6. You're only covering one of the two prongs of the case. One prong is the US Statute. The larger is the US requirement to be consistent with Geneva, if it wants to remain in compliance.

    7. The implications: If the Congess embraces your construction -- that it can make rules that violate Geneva, and deny standing to anyone -- then we're back to where we are with GTMO: Limbo. That's absurd, not a solution, and will merely fuel world outrage.

    8. My issue here isn't simply with what the case does or doesn't say on the US statute or Geneeva; rather, the next step, as you appear to have well stated, is that Congress may decide that the issues of standing and rules of procedure on any commission or trial, depend on teh good graces of the US to follow or not follow. If the US Congress chooses to make issues of "standing" that effectively deny an innocent civilian any chance to have his case heard, and leave them in limbo, subject to the sole power of one person -- then teh world will see that the US is not serious about civility, the rule of law, or the international obligations.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous9:10 PM

    It’s all fun and games on over in Right Blogsitan, GOP bloggers headline is “Supreme Court Signs Treaty With Al Qaeda” as they cite National Review’s finest legal mind Andrew McCarty.

    Meanwhile, over on Jonah Goldberg’s loving mother’s website you can feel the just feel the love for the rule of law, it is palpable:


    Reply 2 - Posted by: Halfgenius, 6/29/2006 10:27:33 AM

    Quite the contrary, it simply means that we'll take no more prisoners! They'll be interrogated after capture and executed as combatants trying to escape...


    Reply 6 - Posted by: englishleigh, 6/29/2006 10:31:39 AM

    Fine...no trials? Cool. Shoot them immediately, then.


    Reply 7 - Posted by: GOPJihad, 6/29/2006 10:32:12 AM

    Prisoners at Gitmo aren't worthy of Geneva Conventions protections. They are illegal combatants, terrorists and saboteurs. All should be subject to summary batttlefield execution.

    That should be policy from here on out.

    Terrorist is given a minute or so to decide whether to talk an dlive or shut up and be executed. They are worthy of no further consideration then that.


    Reply 24 - Posted by: TexasHillCountry, 6/29/2006 10:54:55 AM

    The President should say:

    We are at war. Congress has said so. The American people know it. The Constitution names the President Commander-in-chief, not a majority of Supreme Court Justices acting in concert with domestic political groups opposing the war. Obviously that liberal wing of the court has erred in interpretation; applying political opinions not relevant law. Previous precedent (cite cases here) bears this out. Any court attempting to usurp the power of the President/Commander-in-chief by enforcing this erroneous and outrageous ruling will be dealt with using the means necessary and appropriate to defeat an attempt to give aid and comfort to our enemies.


    An attention-getting first step might look something like this: A quarantine of the salary of any such court or Associate Justice, and support staff, plus a federal seal on the courtroom and chambers prohibiting entry as the GSA does "emergency renovations" for reasons of "health and safety." Besides, these things often get bogged down in "contract disputes" with the renovation contractor. It can be a very drawn out and messy process.


    Furthermore, how many U.S. Marshals, FBI agents, or infantry divisions do the 5 twit-leftist SCOTUS wedgies [sic] have at their disposal anyway?


    And, of course, this just scratches the surface of rational discussion of our important legal issues, such as it is, for Bush supporters.

    Shorter discussion: fuck ‘em, shoot ‘em, kill em, we don’t need no steenking laws!

    And this used to be the party of “law and order” – what a pathetic, dangerous joke they’ve become.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Bart,

    I'm going to need your help on this.


    There are a lot of things you need, but THAT is most assuredly not one of them.

    I believe you wrote your last comment prior to reading my last one. In my last comment, I cited (i) Yale Professor Jack Balkin's post; (ii) Justice Breyer's concurrence; and (iii) the relevant part of the Court's opinion. More I am not willing to do.

    And there's no point in saying things to me like "your argument fails," as though you are both participant in the discussion and objective judge who gets to decree which argument prevailed. If you're unconvinced by what the material I cited for you, you'll just have to go on thinking that the Court enforced the Geneva Conventions in its decision today and that Congress can do nothing about it.

    ReplyDelete
  117. “Supreme Court Signs Treaty With Al Qaeda”

    That site is the sister site of Blogs for Bush. I have a difficult time visiting it without visions of Orwell haunting me.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Nonetheless, opponents of monarchical power should celebrate this decision.

    Too late, I'm afraid.

    The Abu Ghraib pictures came out in 2003. In 2004, Bush was (re)elected.

    The American people *endorsed* the torture and violation of habeus corpus.

    You live in a country that tortures people, and is happy with that. This court decision doesn't alter that one bit. And Bush is just the visible problem.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous10:16 PM

    maintaining my tradition of butting in unbidden on these posts...

    to anonymous who has a bug up his ass about the Geneva convention:

    The SCOTUS decision says that the US military is bound by the laws that Congress makes for them. At this time, those rules of behavior include the Geneva Conventions, and therefore the US military is bound by them. But Congress has the right to decide that those are not the rules by which we shall abide, and write new ones. This decision affirms that right.

    Where is the problem? I don't even understand what you are aruguing about really, unless you are just trying to play "Gotchya!" with Glenn on a somewhat semantic legal issue.

    not that I don't think it is important that we adhere to Geneva, but that I recognize the Constitutionally appointed legislative duties of the Congress as being the truly binding statutory law of the land. Your comment:
    The US may choose to say "We do not agree with Geneva, and abrogate it," but the US, would actually still be bond by Genevea because of the international charater.makes no sense whatsoever.

    oh, yeah. what is a charater? /snark

    Glenn said it above better than I will, but under no circumstances does a treaty signed with international forces trump the direct, expressly stated will of the US Congress as legal power in the United States. Morally, I think you might be able to make that argument. Legally, what the hell are you talking about?

    ReplyDelete
  120. You live in a country that tortures people, and is happy with that.

    I guess that must be why the Senate voted 90-9 to make the use of torture a criminal offense in all cases, and the House approved that legislation by a similar margin.

    Given that this is a country in which the people overwhelmingly criminalized torture just six months ago, it's a bit absurd to come and say "You live in a country that tortures people, and is happy with that."

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous10:27 PM

    Readers: The issue is whether SCOTUS, in this case, did or did not enforce Geneva.

    . . .
    Glenn,

    In re ("Whatever else might be said about the Eisentrager. . ." 72 of 185): Here's the problem with the quote you're providing: It relates to the Appeals court, which the Supreme Court has struck down.

    This doesn't address what the court said, which you have said doesn't exist: That Geneva has been enforced.

    Also, the language that you're referring to is a summary of the case before it got to the Supreme Court. Again, this does not address your (incorrect) assertion that the Court did not enforce Geneva.

    . . .

    Central to the issue of whether the law does or does not apply is the question of whether the rules, which we freely choose to apply, will or will not be enforced.

    If the rules, which guide civility, are not followed; then the only option is to compel civility through force on the battlefield.

    If Congress chooses to permit uncivil conduct, then other nations may define the US has being a rogue nation and lawfully invade, and create something that freely (or by force) will do what the Congress threatens to do: Permit barbaric conduct.

    . . .

    What Congress can or cannot do

    This is not lawful: Balkin"If Congress decides to alter the UCMJ and override the Geneva Conventions, the President can have his military tribunals with procedures as unfair as he wants." This is not true, and would amount to a war crime, not just by the Executive, but by the American people.

    You provide no authority that permits Congressional statutes to trump a treaty obligation to the contrary. Again, this is the core disconnect at the heart of the FISA-NSA issue: Whether government action can trump governing law. It is well established that it cannot.

    The US cannot pick and choose whether it is liable for war crimes by simply ignoring the law. Again, this argument is the same as the FISA-NSA argument of the executive: "We can choose whether to ignore or follow FISA." That cannot stand. Executive Tyranny is one thing; but Legislative Tyranny also cannot stand, even when the legal communty assents to unlawful statutes which violate rights, abuse power, and "permit" uncivil action. It is not Constitutional for Congress to pass a law that permits violations of the laws of war; and that the US COngress may or may choose to ignore the laws of war -- as did Hitler -- does not make the [a] laws of war; or [b] the violations of those laws contintent upon whether the US chooses to be bound by those laws. Rather, Hitler found out that a unliateral abrogation of a treaty -- as Balking-Greenwald (appear to ) assent -- would be permissible, possible, and lawful.

    Your job as a lawyer is to assert the law of the land; nto assent to absurd legal constructions that permit all civilized legal obligations to go out the window on the Whim of Government. We the People may choose to draft a New Constitution which will expressly prohibit what Congress has no power to do: Permit illegal conduct, assent to vioaltions of the rights of man, and condone the abuse of other human beings. Any lawyer that says, "Whatever you want," (arguably) is rolling over and assenting to war crimes.

    Crimes are behavior. Whether the US chooses to ignore or follow the laws of war is a separate issue; the core issue is whether the US population, government, Congress, and agents will or will not respect the rights of others, whether they are at home or abroad. If the US chooses to pretend that the norms of civiliazed society are not to be followed out of convenience, then We the People amy choose, out of convenience to draft a New Constitution to create a system that will do what should be done: Not abuse power, violate rights, or continue to wage barbaric war against the innocent.

    . . .

    Within the provisions of Geneva is the requirement that the detaining power reasonably treat prisoners. [All circumstances include trials, and procudures Congress passes. ]

    Rather, the UCMJ specifically request (as stated in the opinion) that the procedures are consistent with the District Court. This is fair. Hoever, if Congress does something that is not reasonable, then this would amount to a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

    It is a separate matter whether the conduct would or would not violate Geneva. The issue at the heart of your point is whether the court did or did not enforce Geneva: It did.

    . . .

    The Note

    As to the quote at note 58, which you well point to, the remainder of the quote may be of interest, which undermines the contention, "He can do what he wants."

    for the rules of the Convention to be evoked before an appropriate national court by the protected person who has suffered a violation”);

    All circumstances means at all times. This means that the US Congress cannot make a rule which permits violation of all treaties; if the Congress does pass a rule permitting violations of treaties (and some argue that this is possible), then that is a subsequent reason for other nations to violate US sovereignty, and lawfully invade and impose a more civil-likable government that is less of a threat to the international community.

    Again, we're drifting from your original point: Whether or not SCOTUS did or did not enforce Geneva. It did.

    . . .

    Fatal to your argument is the statement in the opinion: "And compliance with the law of war is the condition upon which the authority set forth in Article 21 is granted."73 of 185. If the Court-Executive-Congress does not follow the laws of war, then it has no power to do or not do something. In other words, Geneva is not only a treaty that protects civilians, it is a tenet from We the People which Congress has accepted: We, in Congress, shall comply with that, and make no rule that violates the SUprme Law.

    The issue is: Can Congress make a statutory change to violate a treaty? Answer: Not lawfully, and the Supreme Court would have something to say on this.

    . . .

    The issue of "Standing" is irrelevant when it comes to Geneva Conventions, war crimes, and other ilelgal activity.

    "Standing" is only relevant in a civil case; or when attorneys are attempting to interven on behalf of others.

    For purposes of criminal litigation, as a war crime trial agains the US would be, there is only the People against the Defendant. As you well know, in the Plame case, ther eis no issue of "standing" for the witness.

    Again, standing is an interesting issue, but doesn't address whether or not the Court did or did not enforce Geneva: It has.

    . . .

    Again, this does not address why you say the Court does or does not enforce the Geneva Convention. The only way the Court wold consider Article 21 was if there was some sort of enforcement action, which this opinion does do: Finds that the US has violated the Geneva Conventions.

    You are an expert in constitutional law, not the laws of war; you are a litigator, not a combatant.

    . . .

    This argument is meaningless:

    But the Court says that question doesn't matter here, because the Petitioner is seeking to enforce a Congressional statate mandating compliance with the Geneva Conventions, and NOT THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS ITSELF.

    Irrelevant: The Court found that there had been a violation of Geneva. Again, your point was that there was no enforcement of Geneva; there had to be, otherwise why the Court would not have expressly stated that there had been a violation of Geneva.

    More important, your commentary only refers to the court of appeals (the road to how we got to the Supreme Court 72-185) and in no way discusses your original point: Whether the US SUpreme Court did or did not enforce Geneva. It did.

    . . .

    But not to stop there, also fatal to your diversion (into issues of standing) is the explicity langague of the Supreme Court:

    "We need not decide the merits of this argument because there is at least one provision of the Geneva Conventions that applies here even if the relevant conflict is not one between signatories.61"

    These words from above ("one provision of the Geneva Conventions that applies") was clearly an "enforcement" issue by SCOTUS, as the Appeals court did not consider this relevant, as it should have, and will (or should) now do on remand.

    . . . .

    Giving deference to the citation you provided at Balkin again does nothing to address your original point: Whethere there was or was not a SCOTUS enforcement action on the issue of Geneva.

    . . .

    Continuing further into Balkin, you have only captured part of the argument (as Addington-Yoo do) and have Cherry picked.

    This is not true, and not within the power of the Presidett to do so: "If Congress decides to alter the UCMJ and override the Geneva Conventions, the President can have his military tribunals with procedures as unfair as he wants.? If this were done, then we weould have a defacto tyranny, which other nations could use as a reasonable basis to justify an imminent threat and invade America, destroying all things you value, including your book.

    . . .

    This assertion by Balking is problematic: "It has limited the President by forcing him to go back to Congress to ask for more authority than he already has, and if Congress gives it to him, then the Court will not stand in his way."

    Consider general terms of fundamental law. Let's consider the NSA-FISA issue: If the Congress and President were agree to violate the law of the land, this would not be Constitutional. In that spirit, making rules and passing laws that permit illegal/barbaric treatment would not be ratified by abrogating a treaty.

    . . .

    We do not compare our conduct with the standards we want to ignore; rather we compare conduct with the principles we want to see prevail. This is the heart of the FISA-NSA issue.

    . . .

    For the Balkin-Greenwald construction to prevail, the Court woudl have to stand in the way; permit a violation of the treaty obligations; and not uphold the requirement to civilly respect human beings, as was affirmed at Nuremburg.

    It is a separte issue [a] whether the President is or is not going to be civil; [b] whether someone is gonig to stop him internally; and [c} whether the Court did or did not enforce Geneva.

    Again, your masterful writing and debate skills, and excellent citations do little to address your core point on the SCOTUS enforcement of Geneva in this case: [ Ref ]

    . . .

    Based on the following comment, I question the mertis of citing Balkin: nothing in Hamdan means that the President is constitutionally forbidden from doing what he wants to do.

    This is non-sense. The Constitution does not permit the President to violate the Conventions, laws of war, or treat other human being uncivally. These are human rights issues, and the President does not have the power to torture, abuse, and violate the rights of the innocent. This is at the heart of teh insurgent attack on Americans in Iraq--the US has refused at Abu Ghraib to comply with treaties, obligations, and freely chosen agreements. In short, the US is a rogue nation.

    . . .

    Putting all of the above aside, the core point is that you have failed to make any credible argument backing up your original point that the Court has or has not enforced Geneva. You've been provided textual references showing that it has, and these have not been sufficiently discussed or commented on.

    Conversly, you fail to provide any credible textual langauge from the SCOTUS opinion; rather, you rely on a twisting of the notes which apply to the preliminary steps at the Appeals level.

    Summation

    Like the FISA-NSA argument in re the illegal program, if your argument wree credible, we should have specific text.

    We have the opposite.

    Rather, the author appears to have made a minor error. All one need to do is admit that you made an error, and have incorrectly made an unsubstantiated point, and that the Court did do exactly what we need to hear: It has enforced bot the Statute and the Geneva Conventions.

    We need not consider, this late in the game, other arguments. Where there is no timely provision of a credible argument, we may make the adverse inference that there is nothing to support the contention: Whether the Court did or did not address the issue of Geneva. A plain reading of the case does not square with what the autor wants us to beleive.

    I walk away amazed that you can write this well, but have been unable to craft a coherent argument relying on the text that you say is "plain." Again, you are a fine lawyer, a prosecutor, a well recognized literary talent, and a constitutional expert. Your central point was clear: That the Court did not enforce Geneva. Yet, throghout the case/opinion it is clear that the Court did enforce Geneva. Your arguments to the contrary, and citations, have when read in full, undermined your argument more.

    . . . .

    As with Addington, each citation you've given to justify your argument (that is not related to your original point on SCOTUS enforcmenet of Geneva) is fatal to your argument. If you are unable to justify confidence in yoru original claim -- that SCOTUS did or did not enforce Geneva in this case -- that is not a communication, or understanding issue on the part of the reader. Rather, it is the role of the litigator-debater who makes the point to justify confidence in that (what might appear to be) a valid point. Howeer, upon careful review of the information and links you have provided, you have not well supported your contention taht SCOTUS did not enforce Geneva.

    SCOTUS has no discrention on whether the law is or is not enforced, followed, or found to be unconstitutional, or contrary to public policy. Rather, Federalist 78 recognizes the inhernet power of We the People to impeach the Supreme Court Justices when they fail to assert the supreme law of the land, or assent to barbaric treatment of our fellow human beings.

    But more broadly, all of the above ignores the precedent of the Magna Charta, which compels all people to assent to the law, and be civil. No one has the power to abuse power; they can only use that power if they assent to its abuse.

    It is time to choose: Are you with the forces that will assert the requirement to remain civil; or are you going to assent to legal non-sense, as has Addington and Yoo.

    Choose wisely.

    SCOTUS has enforced Geneva; anyone who argues that SCOTUS has not enforced the governing laws of war as clearly promulgated in the Covnentions, would have us beleive that clearly etsablished rights do not exist; and the treaty obligations, and the requirement to only wage lawful war, can be ignored out of desire of the officers of the court, without regard to the ultimate officers: We the People.

    Your argument fails.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Having just read the synopsis of the Hamdan decision, my first reaction is "Boo, f*cking hoo! The gummint doesn't get to set up its own Lewis Carroll 'courts' with whatever rules it wants to set up to game the results the way it wants."

    "There is no suggestion [] of any logistical difficulty in securing properly sworn and authenticated evidence or in applying the usual principles of relevance and admissibility."

    Secret tribunals and secret evidence, with your "defence" being conducted by military lawyers (hey, about the only way you could do worse is if you hired HWSNBN as a lawyer), is the stuff of Star Chambers, and we explicitly rejected tha kind of crap a coupple centuries ago for good reason.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous10:56 PM

    The Hamdan decision is an outrageous last hurrah of dead-ender liberals on the Supreme Court. Bush should openly defy this monstrous attack on Presidential authority to protect the nation. How about the immediate summary execution of that vermin Hamdan? I bet that would bring Bush's poll numbers back over 50 overnight and crush the Democrats in November.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous11:18 PM

    Anonymous:

    Don't drag me into this spat.

    I have not had the time to study the Court's opinion in depth concerning the Geneva Conventions and I left my copy of the opinion back at the office.

    My initial reading of the two plurality opinions is that, after the Court rewrote Article III to extend it to illegal combatants in an international war, they became cautious and only applied one narrow provision of Article 3 requiring trials for detainees, which they even more narrowly construed to use only the laws of the trying nation.

    Because the Supremes held that Congress can legislate the substantive and procedural law pertaining the military commissions, they obviously do not think that any of the standards of the Geneva Conventions apply.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous11:29 PM

    spaghetti happens said...

    "That strikes me as laws being passed ex post facto, also illegal. No?"

    I am not exactly sure how the ex post facto clause applies to foreign enemy combatants outside the country in the first instance, but the Court seems to be rewriting the law as it goes so I'll assume that they will grant this constitutional right to the enemy as well.

    However, the ex post facto clause only bars retroactive application of substantive laws which impose greater penalties. It generally doesn't apply to procedural changes.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Another thought: that the Supreme Court seems to have accepted -- or at the very least, not struck down -- the curious notion that Congress can limit the Supreme Court's jurisdiction to hear certain tyes of cases (albeit this was a case where they ruled that Congress had not in fact done so) is chilling.
    While it's not apparently a disputed issue on this case, it's disappointing for the courts to even give the hint of condeding this point; given this inch, the Republicans that have been itching for the chance to try to strip the courts of jurisdiction to hear almost any issue that's bugging them -- like abortion cases, First Amendment cases, etc. were they've not been too happy wiht what the courts have said the Constituion demands -- will surely try to take a mile. The absurdity of the proposition that Congress can unilaterally strip the courts of review of the constitutionality of their pet projects is obvious to anyone with a legal mind or even a brain, but that doesn't shame Republicans from the attempt.

    * * * * *

    In a curious side-note: the gummint brief in Hamdan touts Hamdan's the 'rights' the did (supposedly) afford him, including "the right to remain silent". Now that's quite a 'right' for someone who may be prohibited from even attending his 'trial', if the gummint thinks it's a 'security risk'..... Then there's this gem: "If petitioner is found guilty, the hudgement will be reviewed by a review panel, the Secretary of Defense, and the President, if he does not designate the Secretary as the final decisionmaker." Bet it would give you the warm fuzzies knowing your ultimate 'court of review' is Mr. "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job" Dubya. Will travesties never cease?

    * * * * *

    Another curiosity there; the respondent's brief (at 20): "The [DC Circuit of Appeals] court explained that the President had determined that this provision [Geneva Conventions common Article 3] was inapplicable to the conflict with al Qaeda, and concluded that the President's determination was entitled to respect." Huh? Why? How does the preznit get to decide what the law (which encompasses treaties; see, e.e.g., Article III of the U.S. Constitution) is?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  127. bart:

    Mr. Bush is doing nothing new.

    Military commissions or their equivalent were first used by Washington during the Revolution and have been used up through WWII.

    There are entire treatises on the use of these commissions to which the Supremes cited.

    Go read the opinion to which Glenn linked. The Supremes do a fair job reviewing the history and law of military commissions.


    Oh, so we're finding this matter ping-ponging between the executive, legislative and judicial branches because it's all just a matter of established case law? There's nothing new here? You know this, but apparently Congress, the White House and Supreme Court do not?

    Really?

    Try again. Why not explain from the top why we're being forced to go through this ridiculous charade? What exactly is so bloody special about this bunch of louts that we have to waste so much time, money and effort revisiting things we've been competent with for lo these many decades?

    Why? I'll hazard a guess. This is really not about the matter at hand. It's about Yoo and his ideologically unhinged colleagues jumping at the opportunity to test their fringe theories, no matter what the cost, even if it makes us the clowns of the world.

    Sticking with actual established legal procedures, dealing with these people in the fashion we've crafted over the vast scope of legal history would have seen the whole matter ended, wrapped up, added to the useful history of our legal system, years ago. But no, we have to have our boyish experiments, live out the innovations we were so excited to discuss back in law school.

    Pathetic. Truly.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Another comment on the gummint's brief in Hamdan:

    "In Johnson v. Eisentrager this Court concluded that a previous version of the Geneva Convention did not confer privately enforceable rights and that enforcement of the treaty is instead a matter of State-to-State relations."

    It's the state that matters, not the individual. If your state's not on your side, tough luck, eh? So the country that's the purported bastion of individual rights, run by a party that is nominally supposedly the best "friend in court" of the individual against the ravages of state-sponsored nanny-state lib'rulism, says that when it comes down to your very freedom or even perhaps life itself, go ask you gummint for help....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous12:07 AM

    Why does the Supreme Court hate America?

    ReplyDelete
  130. I guess that must be why the Senate voted 90-9 to make the use of torture a criminal offense in all cases, and the House approved that legislation by a similar margin.

    Given that this is a country in which the people overwhelmingly criminalized torture just six months ago,


    Er, no. The House and Senate are not the people, and the people are the country. And the people seem fine and dandy with sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "No worse than fraternity pranks".

    And, further, it's not as if either the Congress or the Senate actually demonstrated any willingness to, you know, get the President to go along...

    it's a bit absurd to come and say "You live in a country that tortures people, and is happy with that."

    The administration of your country was known to torture people; the people of the country relected that administration. What other conclusion would you draw?

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous12:51 AM

    The "Supreme Court just made a treaty with terrorists" rhetoric is entirely absurd. I'm no attorney but it's clear to me that terrorists aren't waiting around for a decision on how they will be treated in captivity prior to making their next offensive or diplomatic move.

    I believe the crux of the issue of this case relative to the ongoing military prosecution of this war is... do we prosecute the war as a civilised people, or not. And the Supreme Court has stated that that question is to be resolved by Congress.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous1:36 AM

    The Major said:

    "The presumptiuon should be that they ARE acting within the law until and unless some other individual can PROVE that they arent."

    Um...I think sombody just did.

    ReplyDelete
  133. I think the Supreme Court Justices who voted for this decision should be declared enemy combatants.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous2:06 AM

    I posted the comment below elsewhere on the net, before reading the excellent analysis here. I post it here for what it is worth.

    I'm sure that a fews days of reflection will yield additional insights about the various opinions issued today by the Supreme Court in the Hamdan v. Rumsfeld case. The opinions cover a LOT of ground. Some initial thoughts. First, the majority opinion by Stevens dodges the key Constitutional issues lurking in the background-- most of the issues are decided based on the interpretation of statutes and treaties, with a notable exception being the refusal of the majority to abstain. This virtually guarantees that there will be a further round of litigation if Congress changes the statutory status quo (as I expect them to do). The remaining detainees in Gitmo are likely to sit there for a long time while this extended battle goes on in the courts.

    Second, the narrow interpretation of the AUMF (the Joint Resolution) by the majority is an important step towards intellectual honesty and a crucial blow to those who argue the AUMF authorizes the President to do everything from warrantless wiretapping to who knows what in the name of "fighting terrorism." This is one of the more important holdings of the majority.

    Third, the majority clearly sends the message that, where the boundary between the Executive and Legislative powers under the Constitution is not entirely clear, the Court is much more likely to defer to the Executive where the Executive and Legislative branches have reached an agreement on how to draw those boundaries. Breyer's opinion concurring with the majority invites Congress to take action.

    Fourth, the Geneva Conventions really have teeth. The Supreme Court's jurisprudence on treaties over the years has been, well, a bit "kinky." To get an idea of what I mean, go to the SCOTUS website and read the opinion issued yesterday in Sanchez-Llamas v. Oregon dealing with the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. Compare what happened there with what happened in Hamdan. While Stevens avoids any "in your face" rhetoric, his opinion is a clear rebuke to the fascistic, intellectually dishonest government employees (Cheney/Rumsfeld/Gonalez on down the food chain) who concluded that the Geneva Conventions are "quaint" (implying that the US no longer needs to comply with them).


    FIfth, there is a lot written between the lines of the majority opinion. The discussions of the Nurenberg proceedings, the discussion of the Yamashita case, the mention of the fact that military leaders can be tried for war crimes if they fail to prevent those under them from committing atrocities, etc. all have multiple unwritten overtones. Portions of the discussion could at some point in the future be deemed to have laid the groundwork for war crimes trials of high level Bush administration officials and high level US military officials for abuses committed in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere (assuming PJF doesn't put their butts in jail first). Stevens did a masterful job of condemning what the Bush administration did without using partisan rhetoric.

    Sixth-- The failure of the majority to defer to the executive is remarkable, a true sign that they very much believe that Bush has gone way over the line.

    Finally, as to the dissents, I did not give them the scrutiny yet that I gave the majority and concurring opinions. But I will say this: Thomas' opinion may be the worst piece of intellectually dishonest, fascist claptrap that I have seen written by a Supreme Court justice in the last 100+ years. I need to read it more carefully to confirm my initial reaction. And Alito comments that he sees "no justification for striking down the entire commission struction simply because it is possible that Petitioner's might involve the use of some procedure that is imroper." Huh? Does he really mean that Hamdan's inability to attend his own trial is permissible? If you read the trial procedures that are described by Stevens, they sound a lot like the trial procedures used by Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin. Even the opening part of Stevens' opinion sounds like a Franz Kafka novel. Are we no better than Joseph Stalin? Have we sunk so low that we have to rig the trials so that it is impossible for any defendant to win?

    Remember, the majority opinion did not question the right of Bush to hold Hamdan as a POW until the end of hostilities. But Bush refuses to state that Hamdan is a POW because POW status triggers rights under the Geneva Convention. This case was not about POWs.

    And the majority did not in any way limit the ability of the military to act in a "pragmatic" way in holding military trials on or near the battlefield. This case was not about "battlefield" trials.

    This case is about the procedures to be followed in certain types of military trials that are held thousands of miles away from the battlefield.

    Everyone wants those who are guilty of crimes to be appropriately punished. But everyone should also want the procedures used in those trials to be such that, if they were the ones being charged, and such charges were unfounded, there would be a realistic possibility of acquittal.

    When one stands up in court and represents the government, one is sometimes tempted to tell the judge: "You can believe me, because I never lie, and I am always right." Sadly, the dissenters in Hamdan (and, I suspect, CJ Roberts) would nod their head in agreement anytime a government attorney made such a statement.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous2:12 AM

    Thank you for providing the first detailed analysis on the ruling I have read. But the sad truth is nothing will change. The Republican legiscritters with the help of their Democrat dogs will pass legislative guidance that will permit the tribunerals to go forward.

    Some day it will be our turn for a tribuneral, as trials are so unpredictable for the government. Even though they lose less than 3% of the trials.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous2:48 AM

    Blindly supporting an executive who engages in conduct (Joseph Stalin type trials, torture of prisoners) which encourages those who are opposing us to mistreat our soldiers when they are captured undermines our troops. Guess that makes you a traitor.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous2:51 AM

    Come to think of it, Rummy (we go to war with the equipment we have, not with the equipment we need to properly support our troops)(we disgregard advice from our top generals that we are not sending enough troops to get the job done) is a traitor, too.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous3:16 AM

    the major is clearly not deserving of a response, but I just can't help myself...

    He starts by saying this:
    "Well that's wht liberals do when the facts are against them they just resort to name calling."

    And within two sentences, he says this:
    "American fighting men and women deservew more than to be stabbed in the back by a bunch of wimpy cowardly appeasers who never put there money where there moth is."

    Good thing the major didn't resort to name-calling, though.

    p.s.: The author of this opinion, Justice Stevens, received a Bronze Star for his service as a Navy officer in World War II.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous3:20 AM

    Glenn - it is insanity to think that the court that proclaimed you cannot tell who wins an election by actually counting the votes (2000) is somehow going to do anything significant here.

    You bring up some good points, but they all assume that there is some honesty and integrity on the bench -- enough so to actually generate majority support to stand up to the chimperor.

    THAT IS NOT TRUE!

    Your post reminds me of all the wasted verbage here about arlen sphincter standing up to chimpy too.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Ka-bar:

    Many of you see hope in this decision. I see it as one of the last gasps of dying culture. Our descent began with a 5-4 ruling. Do you think this 5-4 ruling will halt it?


    I had a day when I was sitting, thinking about the war in Iraq, wondering how people could not notice, could not hear the screams of the human spirit, as tens of thousands of innocent people died.

    What could you do, if people couldn't hear that scream?

    And the only answer that came to me was that those who hear must teach others to listen.

    No, there is no hope if those of us who can hear, and see, and speak give up.

    And there might not be any hope at all.

    But I, for one, will fight, with all of the strength of my mind, heart and spirit. And if there's hope, I'm going to find it.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous5:42 AM

    If Glenn sees this question, or if anyone else can answer it for me, I would like to ask:

    Does Glenn feel the 5 justices who decided this case did so properly? Did they go as far as Glenn would have?

    I am feeling dejected by Glenn's somewhat subdued celebration of this decision (he's a realist among optimists, it seems) and by what he wrote about habeas corpus. It's great that executive powers have been curtailed by the court, but what about all those innocent people who are being detained and tortured?

    If laws are now passed which undermine the Geneva Convention's applicability, or this decision is dismissed by Bushco, what's going to happen to those innocent people? They are going to stay there and be tortured forever?

    Also I don't see hypatia and jao on this blog today. What happened to all the "Mr President, tell it to a judge" and hypatia's assurances that Scalia would rule in the way she predicted?

    This decision would have gone the opposite way if jao and hypatia's favorite justices had had their way....

    I wonder if that will give them pause.....or not......

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous5:57 AM

    Don de drain:

    Thank you for your great post which I found fascinating reading combined with Glenn's original great analysis.

    But I will say this: Thomas' opinion may be the worst piece of intellectually dishonest, fascist claptrap that I have seen written by a Supreme Court justice in the last 100+ years. I need to read it more carefully to confirm my initial reaction.

    Me too, and I'll be looking for more comments from you after you study it more carefully. I almost feel personally responible for Clarence Thomas. I had complete and utter respect for that man when he started out. I am begining to think a person could not have changed that much in 15 years, which would lead me to conclude I was wrong about him. But that's a long story....

    And Alito comments that he sees "no justification for striking down the entire commission struction simply because it is possible that Petitioner's might involve the use of some procedure that is imroper."

    This statement is as predictable as the sun rising every morning. Anyone who read his dissent in the strip search of the child case (which got a lot of play from both sides, but most of it was off the mark) could have written the words above for him. Alito is the closest thing to an out and out fascist and a person born without a sense of decency that we have here in America in my opinion.

    He's more subtle, but I don't see how he is any better than Yoo, and because he is more subtle, in my opinion he's more dangerous.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous7:58 AM

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/30/binladen.tape/

    From the article:

    "Although CNN cannot independently verify that the voice in the message is bin Laden's, several experts have told CNN it appears to be."



    Who do these so-called experts work for...the US Government by chance? None of them told you it actually WAS Bin Laden, did they?

    Cannot independently verify?

    What efforts will you be making to verify with enough certainty to justify a headline which emphatically states that it IS Bin Laden - such as the headline that accompanies this article?

    The headline says it's Bin Laden and the article says they're not sure.

    " On tape, bin Laden mourns al-Zarqawi's death"


    Is this supposed to be journalism?

    WTF?

    Got Government PsyOps with a complicit media doing their bidding?



    While we're on the topic... EXPLAIN THIS:

    For those of you who actually believe that Bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attacks, the FBI Most Wanted web site disagrees with you, and so does Wikipedia:

    "The FBI does not yet have 'hard evidence' linking him to the 9/11 attacks and so as of 2006 he has only been indicted on the embassy murders; he is officially still only a suspect in 'other terrorist attacks throughout the world'."

    http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

    To each of you - go ahead, tell me again about the one where Osama Bin Laden attacked America on 9/11.

    Anybody?

    Anybody?


    Have you actually LOOKED at the person in the fake Bin Laden video?

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

    The FBI declines to confirm its authenticity.

    BECAUSE IT’S FAKE!

    BIN LADEN DID NOT ATTACK US ON 9/11.

    THE FBI CONFIRMS IT.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous8:43 AM

    I am thoroughly convinced that the Major is Colbert-esque sarcasm.

    Even if it's not true, it saves me from feeling like someone stole the time it takes to read his posts.

    They are much more effective as sarcastic comedy than sincere polemic.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous8:52 AM

    To Glenn -

    Okay, so the SCOTUS has spoken in a fairly direct way here.

    Next question: how quickly do you project the Congress to act here? How detailed and how carefully targeted would any legislation they prodcue have to be on this issue to protect the Administration (if that's even possible at this point)?

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous11:11 AM

    If laws are now passed which undermine the Geneva Convention's applicability

    They cannot undermine Geneva. That would be a flat-out violation of Geneva and they cannot do that. They can only kill Geneva entirely and that is a nonstarter. What they CAN do is give Congressional permission for military tribunals with all the proper protections provided as per Geneva. They cannot undermine the most important part of the ruling for Geneva: ALL prisoners have to be treated properly. No torture, no abuse, no secret prisons, etc. They have to be treated properly and in full accord with the Conventions.

    ReplyDelete
  147. HWSNBN boviates:

    After reading the screaming headlines on the media sites reporting the Hamdan decision, I expected the worst. However, this badly fractured and often contorted set of decisions really isn't much of a practical problem for the President in general....

    "poisoning the well"

    ... However, as I discuss below, a decision concerning the charge of conspiracy has the potential to derail several prosecutions of the enemy combatants.

    What? You mean they'll actualy want a "conspiracy" to be a conspiracy to actually do something illegal?

    1) The fact that the Supremes assumed jurisdiction over this matter despite several contrary precedents is no real surprise and doesn't merit much discussion....

    Other than the gummint was full'o'shite in saying that it didn't. But I'm curious as to the identity of these "several contrary precedents" for the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005[!]... I'd note that Councilman abstention is not
    lack of jurisdiction (just a clue for the legally confused here, like HWSNBN). It is, as Stevens, puts it, a "matter of comity" to "normally" abstain, rather than a bar on jurisdiction.

    ... From the beginning, they have asserted review authority and the President's public statements for the past month have all but invited them to make this decision.

    "He made me do it." ROFL. HWSNBN has quite some rhetorical tricks in his 'legal' argumentation here.... But I'd note that Commander Codpiece's lawyers argued quite the opposite, so maybe any such statements by Dubya (which HWSNBN doesn't bother to actualy cite) ought to be treated with the same degree of seriousness as his "Bring it on" comment. ;-)

    All in all, a rather pathetic way to excuse a lost argument, but HWSNBN is a stalwart defender of the maladministration come hell or high water, so he's off to the tilt regardless....

    2) The Supremes recognized that both Articles I and II of the Constitution provide both Congress and the President with the power to make rules concerning the treatment of "captures"....

    Actually, I don't think they said any such thing. They did get a bit more specific, on the issue of whether military tribunals constituted by the preznit were legitimate, but here's what they said:

    "Whether Chief Justice Chase was correct in suggesting that the President may constitutionally convene miitary commissions "without the sanction of Congress" in cases of "controlling necessity" is a question this Court has not answered definitively, and need not answer today."

    Hardly a resounding affirmation if HWSNBN's claimed preznitdential prerogative at least for this specific issue.

    ... However, given that Article I, Section 8(11) expressly gives Congress the power to make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water," I would think that Congress' actions in this area trump the President's general authority.

    Wow. HWSNBN claims to "think". It might save him some bother to just read the freakin' opinion and learn. I note that nowhere does the opinion note any "general authority" by the preznit in this area (the best that can be stated is that it may be arguable he might have some "emergency powers" in this area due to exigenct circumstances [athough the court says it doesn't need to decide any such limits on such exigencies here]). See above.

    Although the Stevens opinion does not address this, the Kennedy concurrence does and agrees with my view.

    Wow. U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Kennedy agrees with the noted "criminal prosecutor" from Colorado. Good thing Kennedy saw the light, eh?

    But HWSNBN fails to show what his previous opinion was, much less how he managed to get Kennedy to go aong with his scintilating 'logic'....

    I'l take on the rest of HWSNBN's foofrah later....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous1:21 PM

    Glenn wrote, "The fact that it doesn't achieve every goal or solve every political problem is no reason to disparage its significance. Doing so breeds a destructive cynicism that, in turn, breeds resignation and defeatism. In that regard, the excessively cynical claim that "nothing matters because they will just do what they want and ignore every law" -- a claim I hear every day here -- is not much different than the claim that "none of this matters because they control voting machines and will always win."

    ... Far beyond that, the Bush administration's excesses of power were dragged into the open, declared illegal, and were powerfully condemned by the highest court in our country. If one doesn't celebrate yesterday's victory, it is difficult to imagine what would be considered a success.


    Certainly, I have been one of the cynics in the comments, but I do not think the cynicism on these pages has been either destructive or defeatist. As each of us write here, it really does matter and may even make a difference. For example, the cynics have been saying for a long time that Bush is not incompetent, but a success in implementing his process away from democracy and decency and toward oligarchy. This has made a difference because the issue of incompetency vs. malicious success is not, for the first time, being really debated in many blogs and I hope around many eating tables and in cars and living rooms across the land.

    We cynics worry whether Bush will dodge around the Hamden desision to continue to detain and torture in violation of the law and human decency.

    One should remimber that there is precedent in our history for the Executive to buck a Supreme Court decision and refuse to abide by it. Andrew Jackson proceeded with the removal of the Cherokee Indians (insurgents) from Georgia notwithstanding the href="http://www.historynet.com/ah/bljackson/">rulings by Justice John Marshall in favor of the Cherokees.

    This decision is very important, but it is not the end of the consitutional struggle. It is my hope that the pendulum has begun to swing in democracy's favor, but I am very cynical that the President will ever embrace the rule of law or accept the checks from the Courts. At the moment, I think Congress is truly just a lapdog.

    Time will tell. I hope my cynicism is cured by events. In the meantime, cynicism and criticism of Bush&Co is very important. Without discourse, spreading from thousands of believers in democracy preaching to the sleeping bubbas, democracy will slip away without a whimper no matter how significant the decisions that flow from the Supreme Court.

    Bush&Co are testing the limits of their power. They will take all they can. We must be vigilent and critical. Our cynicism must never be destructive or defeatist. Instead, the cynicism should protect us from forgetting that democracy cannot survive without active participants in the process.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous3:33 PM

    "Major"

    You mean THEIR mouth.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous11:16 PM

    bart writes and I left my copy of the opinion back at the office.

    Oval? Anyway, thanks. I needed that laugh but suggest you leave the humor to Major who is more than up to the job. Patrick, in case you missed it, Major is a humorist, but it's true his posts can be among the most biting because they point out the utter absurdity of the views he pretends to espouse.

    redhorse writes: The real terrorists are in Washington, D.C.They are known as the Repugnant Party,and any (others) who are in collusion with them.This is a classic scenerio from Star Wars.We must rise up against Darth Vader and his minions (the bush administration,and take our country back from those who are HELL BENT on destroying it. This administration is stark raving mad.

    And that's an understatement. They are so bonkers it would be funny if the consequences of their insanity were not so tragic. That's why I didn't understand why Glenn had written that Harry Belafonte could not be taken seriously.

    Harry said the terrorists are in the White House. Does anyone here disagree?

    12:23 PM

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous11:07 PM

    bart--

    I think your criticism here is kind of misguided--Article 3 of Geneva applies here specifically because Al Qaeda is not a nation. The administration simply can't have it both ways.

    And the reason why SCOTUS leaves open the option of specific Congressional authorization of the kind of courts that they struck down is because legislation would establish those courts as "regular".

    Moving on, I'm still catching up here, and I don't completely understand the issues concerning jurisdiction with respect to treaties and so forth, but I do seem to be much more interested in Scalia's dissent regarding whether or not DTA applies. (BTW, it seems obvious that Scalia's textualism is driving his dissent. Just my perspective.) I can't understand why the debate here (and elsewhere) hasn't centered on that issue. Despte the fact that Scalia might be the lone voice on this, it seems like a crucial question.

    So, here's a question: is the question about Geneva specifically related to Habeas Corpus (relating it to DTA, i.e. Geneva overrides DTA), the "regular" courts (which is a separate issue, unrelated to DTA), or both? (Or neither.) No, seriously, I'm asking--answers from anyone would be most welcome.

    ReplyDelete