Monday, July 03, 2006

Exemplary Americans - The Press asserts itself - Abrogating the Geneva Conventions

Several related issues of note:

(1) One of the most eloquent and forceful opponents of the Bush administration's abuses of executive power has been Bruce Fein, life-long doctrinaire conservative and former Reagan administration Justice Department official. Blogger Andrew Bard Schmookler has posted an e-mail interview he conducted with Fein which is highly worth reading. If I could force every self-proclaimed conservative to read one interview, it would be this one.

Fein is particularly persuasive when it comes to imparting the depressingly difficult-to-convey point that critiques of the Bush administration's theories of executive power have nothing to do with liberal or conservative ideology, except to the extent that unlimited executive power is squarely at odds with ostensible conservative principles:

I have never perceived our magnificent constitutional dispensation as a partisan issue. As Thomas Jefferson explained in his first inaugural, we are all Federalists, we are all Republicans when it comes to the rule of law and the Constitution’s sacred architecture. The Founding Fathers built on a profound understanding of human nature and the propensity of absolute power to deteriorate into absolute corruption and abuses.

My convictions about the signature features of the United States that occasioned its blossoming from a tiny nation into a global superpower made my criticisms of Bush’s usurpations natural and spontaneous, even though I voted for him twice and praised many of his measures or appointments, e.g., Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justice Sam Alito. . . . Bush’s precedents are dangerous, and will lie around like loaded weapons readily unleashed by any incumbent in times of strife or conflict, e.g., a second edition of 9/11.

At the risk of invoking a heinous -- and tragically soiled -- blogger cliche, permit me to recommend that you read the entire interview with Bruce Fein.

(2) Journalists are the frequent target of criticism in the blogosphere, and my blog is no different. The failure of journalists to perform their central function of acting as an adversarial watchdog against the Government is one of the most significant factors -- if not the most significant -- in why the Bush administration has been able to perpetrate abuse after abuse.

But if one is going to criticize journalists for not doing their job, one should give credit to journalists when they do. Just as I wish that every self-proclaimed conservative would read the Bruce Fein interview, I wish every journalist would watch this clip of Dana Priest on Meet the Press this weekend, in which she very forcefully and clearly explains the intended purpose and function of the media in our system of government.

With Bill Bennett, that odious advocate of imprisoning journalists, sitting next to her, the comment which Priest made about casino gambling has received most of the attention (and for those Beacons of Civil Discourse hand-wringing about the impropriety of her comment, I'd like to know how many of them could exercise the civility they oh-so-solemnly urge when sitting next to someone who has been publicly advocating their life-long imprisonment). But Priest's casino gambling comment is really just an insignificant distraction compared to the extremely critical and substantive points she made about the role of journalism and why these attacks on journalists are so misguided and dangerous.

Priest, who won the Pulitzer Prize this year for her story informing Americans that our government has created secret gulags in Eastern Europe to "interrogate" terrorist suspects beyond the reach of the law, is extremely smart and, more importantly, understands her role as a journalist and is courageous enough to fulfill that role regardless of the attacks to which she knows she will be subjected. Her boldness even inspired the other panelists, and the moderator, to be quite combative against Bennett's insistence that journalists who expose government secrets belong in prison.

As fundamentally flawed as the national media has been over the last five years -- and their journalistic crimes could fill a book (actually, they have filled a very good book) -- they are a vital and irreplaceable check on the government. We would not know about warrantless eavesdropping if the NYT and Jim Risen hadn't written about them, or secret European gulags if Priest and the WP hadn't uncovered them, or the domestic call monitoring program had USA Today not learned of it and courageously published an article about it. And the NYT just published reports of the administration's massive banking monitoring program and defied the pleas of the administration when doing so, knowing it would be subjected to exactly the whirlwind of vicious and dangerous accusations of treason which have spewed forth the entire week. They deserve credit, and support, for having done all of that.

The MTP panel discussion was actually quite encouraging because, for the first time in a long time, one could see national journalists actually showing some genuine and self-evidently justifiable signs of anger and fight over the very deliberate attacks on a free press which have been waged for some time by this administration and its followers. Bush followers hate anything which serves as a limit on the power of the Leader -- the media, whistleblowers, the Supreme Court, disobedient Senators, the opposition party, the Constitution. They see each of these balancing forces as something which -- to use Alberto Gonzales' revealing description -- "hampers" the power of the President. One can hope that they have become so brazen in their intent to wage war against the media that journalists will finally awaken to what has been obvious for some time and realize that they need to begin to defend themselves. Priest's performance yesterday, and really the panel discussion as a whole, was an encouraging sign.

(3) Katherine at Obsidian Wings has an excellent analysis on the intended maneuvers of Congress to circumvent the Hamdan ruling through legislation aimed at legalizing the President's military commissions. There is a certain smugness in most of the Congressional comments about this decision. They are treating it as though the decision turned on nothing other than some minor legislative oversight -- that all Congress has to do is enact a quick law making clear that they "bless" the military commissions and then all will be well.

But the crux of the Court's decision was that -- regardless of federal law -- the Geneva Conventions themselves prohibit the type of military commissions which the administration created. Although it is likely that the Court is without jurisdiction to enforce the mandates of the Conventions themselves (Hamdan was grounded in enforcement of federal law mandating compliance with the Conventions, not the mandates of the Conventions themselves), it is still the case that the Court held that the military commissions are violations of the Conventions (and, therefore, executing a prisoner based on the findings of such a commission would be a war crime, the Court strongly suggested).

Thus, the only way for Congress to empower the President to proceed with these military commissions would be to abrogate the Geneva Conventions. That is something which the President and Congress are unquestionably empowered to do -- treaties are like any other law and can be reversed or negated at any time through the democratic process (i.e., through an act of Congress) -- but is that really something that we are prepared to do?

The "war" we are fighting is a war, claims the President, about changing "hearts and minds" among Middle Eastern Muslims towards the United States, about blocking the ability of Al Qaeda to recruit and receive support by making clear that the U.S. is a force for good in the world. That is the rhetoric that is used to justify our military occupation of Iraq (once the original principal justification became problematic) and it is supposedly the central precept of our foreign policy overall. What could be more inconsistent with that putative goal than repudiating the mandates of the Geneva Conventions?

As the Supreme Court made clear -- and this proposition is not in real dispute -- the U.S. could hold these prisoners without any military commissions until "the end of hostilities." That is how all countries treat all prisoners of war. Prisoners of war aren't entitled to trials and they are not released until the war ends.

There are only two possible reasons why the Bush administration would want to try Guantanamo detainees in a military trial: (i) to justify their execution; or (ii) to address international protest that these prisoners should not be held forever without establishing their guilt. Is executing these prisoners (or trying them in a military commission as opposed to a regular court-martial proceeding) really worth the heavy cost that we will incur if we abrogate the Geneva Conventions? And if international protest is the reason to give them military trials, isn't it obviously better to hold them without such trials than to be seen by the world abrogating the Conventions?

Rightly or wrongly, our nation's highest court has held that the Geneva Conventions which we signed -- and which are part of American law -- bars the use of military commissions. Thus, the only way to proceed with them is to violate or abrogate the Conventions themselves. What possible benefit could justify the heavy cost of doing that?

(4) I want to express my sincere appreciation to Barbara O'Brien, Anonymous Liberal, and Hume's Ghost for their superb guest blogging last month during my book tour. It is very difficult for most bloggers to be unable to blog for extended periods of time because one feels an obligation to provide worthwhile content to one's readers. But the quality of their blogging made my required absence much easier and more relaxing. Their posts were provacative and well-reasoned and I consider them a credit to this blog. You can continue to read each of them, as I do, at their regular blogs, linked to above.

58 comments:

  1. Anonymous10:59 AM

    Gevena??

    ReplyDelete
  2. As always Glenn, thank you for your thoughtful post. I don't let a day go by without at least a couple of visits over here.

    Dana Priest is the smartest working national journalist. She deserved the Pulitzer, and our continuing support for her work.

    Meanwhile, something horrible is going on in Gaza.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous11:11 AM

    Thus, the only way for Congress to empower the President to proceed with these military commissions would be to abrogate the Geneva Conventions.

    Jonah Goldberg is apparently so convinced that Americans and Democrats have been so intimidated and frightened by the Republicans attempt to smear them with the “terrorist” label, that he doesn’t believe that Americans will dare to stand up for the Geneva Conventions. He says:

    If Democrats want terrorists to fall under the Geneva Convention let them say so. My guess is most won't, if they're smart.

    The right is now so insular, and believes their propaganda has been so successful with equating support for the Geneva Conventions with support for terrorists, that it is unimaginable to them that a Democrat would publicly support them.

    Wow. Not everyone is wearing an orange “I love Gitmo” hat, and not everyone listens to right-wing hate radio and Fox News. I think Jonah is in for a rude awakening.

    Kevin Drum has a very appropriate response:

    Well, I'm a Democrat, and I'll say it: anyone we capture on a battlefield should be subject to the minimum standards of decency outlined in the Geneva Conventions. That includes terrorists. It's our way of telling the world that we aren't barbarians; that we believe in minimal standards of human decency even if our enemies don't. It's also a necessary — though not sufficient — requirement for winning this war.

    Jonah, and the majority of the Republican Party now believe that acting like barbarians is necessary in the “war on terror” and that those who refuse to act like barbarians support the terrorists and are traitors to this country.

    I think they may have a hard sell on this talking point. And I hope I’m not being too optimistic here.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I see no reason why 'terrorists' - a term I have come to loathe because it has been so misused and abused - can't be tried in a real court rather than one of Bush's kangaroo courts.

    I think this argument is more serious than you suggest. A lot of the people at Guantanamo are dangerous terrorists. The fact that some who were held there were innocent doesn't mean they are all innocent. There really are dangerous terrorists who want to unleash very serious attacks on the U.S., and some are undoubtedly at Guantanamo.

    And there are genuine dangers in trying them in the American criminal court system. The evidence that is gathered against them is often the result of sources whose identities and methods can't be revealed without endangering both the sources and the methods. That is all true and should not be treated dismissively simply because the administration exploits that fact for its own purposes.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous11:24 AM

    It's quite funny to see the left concentrate on Dana' Priest's childish insult and hold it up as some sort of triumph over Mr. Bennett.

    Her puerile non-sequiter ad hominem belied the frustration that she could not respond to the logical and well-reasoned arguments of Mr. Bennett.

    Despite the fact that Mr. Bennett was up against four members of the MSM, he definitely won the debate.

    How? Easy... he actually relied on facts...not spin.

    Check out the clips of Hugh Hewitt on Reliable Sources, Again, it wasn't a fair fight. There were only four against him also.

    It was so fun watching Lichtblau squirm.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous11:31 AM

    I am absolutely positive that certain terrorists have already "come to justice" extra-judicially. Does anyone believe that we will ever see Ramzi Binalshibh or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed will ever reappear?


    The real bad guys have already disappeared, never to reappear. We will know what happened in about 20 years.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hey dipshit, (what an appropriate moniker!) did you actually read Glenn's post?

    But Priest's casino gambling comment is really just an insignificant distraction compared to the extremely critical and substantive points she made about the role of journalism and why these attacks on journalists are so misguided and dangerous.

    Pay attention. You just may learn something.

    ReplyDelete
  8. A lot of the people at Guantanamo are dangerous terrorists. The fact that some who were held there were innocent doesn't mean they are all innocent. There really are dangerous terrorists who want to unleash very serious attacks on the U.S., and some are undoubtedly at Guantanamo.

    And there are genuine dangers in trying them in the American criminal court system. The evidence that is gathered against them is often the result of sources whose identities and methods can't be revealed without endangering both the sources and the methods.


    Glenn:

    Not so fast. Most of the Guantanamo captives were picked up in the Afghan theater, either close to combat or sold to the Americans by warlords. What "sources and methods" would be at risk revealing there? Especially now, four years later.

    The cases of those who were "renditioned" from nations cooperating with our "war on terror" are more complicated. In those cases, the sensitivity lies in protecting participants in acts that are illegal according to international law.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Did you see this article?

    The U.S. National Security Agency asked AT&T Inc. to help it set up a domestic call monitoring site seven months before the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, lawyers claimed June 23 in court papers filed in New York federal court.

    I guess this eliminates the arguement that the NSA warrantless wiretapping program could have prevented 9/11, since it was already in place. Or that it was installed because of 9/11. Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  10. As recent studies have shown, most of the detainees are there because they were turned over for cash rewards and many, if not most, were never involved in terrorist activities. Reports on "terrorists" at Guantanamo include the following:
    Falsehoods About Guantanamo
    Empty Evidence
    More than Half of Gitmo Detainees Not Accused of Hostile Acts
    Lawyers: Many Gitmo Detainees Not Accused
    Original Report

    What's ironic is that after these "terrorists" have suffered tremendous forms of psychological torture uner US captivity, the Bush administration is now saying it's concerned about repatriating many of these prisoners to their home countries because they'll be tortured there.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Political Play. Senate Dems should introduce a resolution for the United States to withdraw from Geneva Conventions, to encourage torutue and abuse of "Enemy Combatants."

    See how Republican like a taste of their own medicine. The House Republicans had their "withdraw" resolution in response to Murtha, and both chambers brought out the "Cut and Run" resolutions.

    The Democrats should for the Republicans to decide in public if they support "Torture and Abuse" by abrogating the Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention.

    vmckimmey
    radical centerist

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous11:57 AM

    Re: "Rightly or wrongly, our nation's highest court has held that the Geneva Conventions .... bars the use of military commissions."

    Are you saying that they may have been wrong on that point?

    ReplyDelete
  13. Anonymous12:02 PM

    I read the Fein interview, and I found it to be (sadly) typical of conservative discourse in several respects. One is the knee-jerk dismissal of all Democrats as "intellectually bankrupt". Is he really saying that people like Krugman, Feingold, Kennedy, Kerry, Gore have no intellect?

    Second, he repeatedly referers to Clinton's lawlessness. Does he really think that lying about a blow job is on a par with secret prison, warrentless wiretaps on a massive scale, lying about the rationale for war???

    Sorry, but Fein strikes me as a tarted up version of any other right-wing gasbag. He may be slightly more presentable, but when push comes to shove he resorts to baseless name calling in lieu of fact-based debate.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous12:06 PM

    Glenn:

    (1) One of the most eloquent and forceful opponents of the Bush administration's abuses of executive power has been Bruce Fein, life-long doctrinaire conservative and former Reagan administration Justice Department official.

    Fein is a libertarian, not a "life-long doctrinaire conservative."

    The difference between the two ideologies and the reason why I left the Libertarian Party is that libertarians treat US citizens and foreign enemies the same way while conservatives recognize that the criminal justice and war fighting are two entirely different matters.

    I have agreed with Mr. Fein on several issues involving constitutional rights for American citizens. In this, we are both fellow libertarians.

    However, the United States has never extended constitutional protections to foreign enemy combatants. Mr. Fein's position is quite radical and has nothing to do with the text or original intent of the Constitution, which are supposed to be the lode stars of constitutional interpretation for libertarians.

    [Fein:] The Founding Fathers built on a profound understanding of human nature and the propensity of absolute power to deteriorate into absolute corruption and abuses.

    I am not exactly sure how the principle of limiting government power has to do with whether the elected Congress or President or the unelected Courts can exercise the power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or try enemy detainees. Someone in the government will be exercising that power no matter what. Therefore, there is no constitutional limitation issue.

    [Fein:] My convictions about the signature features of the United States that occasioned its blossoming from a tiny nation into a global superpower made my criticisms of Bush’s usurpations natural and spontaneous, even though I voted for him twice and praised many of his measures or appointments, e.g., Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justice Sam Alito. . . . Bush’s precedents are dangerous, and will lie around like loaded weapons readily unleashed by any incumbent in times of strife or conflict, e.g., a second edition of 9/11.

    I find it utterly amazing that Fein supported Roberts and Alito, who are true "life-long doctrinaire conservatives" with long judicial records including the Roberts opinion against Hamdan in the lower court.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Anonymous12:07 PM

    The Court didn't say the prisoners couldn't be tried by military commissions, only that they couldn't be tried by *those* military commissions (and established some standards that a military commission would have to meet to be consistent with UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions).

    Anyone saying "The SC won't let us put terrorists on trial at all!" is just supporting a Republican lie. The majority opinion in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld demands a *fair* trial, not *no* trial.

    The SC publicly caught Bush trying to break basic standards of fairness and justice, as well as federal laws and the Geneva Conventions. We *need* to beat him over the head with this - hard - and not let the issue get reframed as pro- or anti- terrorist. We're all anti-terrorist. The problem is that some of us are anti-Constitution, too.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Most of the Guantanamo captives were picked up in the Afghan theater, either close to combat or sold to the Americans by warlords.

    Most, but not all. And even for the ones who were picked up there, some of the evidence gathered against them comes from confidential sources. All I'm saying is that in some cases, there is a real risk that discloing the evidence in a normal U.S. court could harm intelligence sources. I know there is an instinctive resistance to arguments like that because the administration so continuosly abuses it, but in some cases, it is valid.

    I read the Fein interview, and I found it to be (sadly) typical of conservative discourse in several respects.

    If you're a liberal, you're not going to like what Fein has to say on most issues. That's because he's a conservative, which is the whole point - opposition to the administration's executive power abuses requires no ideological agreement in other areas. It is anathema to American values, not conservative or liberal ones.

    Are you saying that they may have been wrong on that point?

    I'm saying exactly what I said: that regardless of one's views on whether the Conventions really were intended to cover terrorists and non-uniformed combatants, the conclusion that it does cover such individuals is now the law of the land, such that refusing to comply with the Conventions with regard to these detainees is to violate the Conventions.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous12:34 PM

    sunny said...
    Hey dipshit, (what an appropriate moniker!) did you actually read Glenn's post?

    But Priest's casino gambling comment is really just an insignificant distraction compared to the extremely critical and substantive points she made about the role of journalism and why these attacks on journalists are so misguided and dangerous.

    Pay attention. You just may learn something.


    Ummm, Sunny...

    You might want to reread my comment. Where did I mention Glenn directly?

    Nowhere?? ....that's what I thought.

    I wa referring to the left in general. Go check out Atrios and the rest of Kos's Clownhouse minions.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Does the ruling that places the detainees under the protection of the Geneva Conventions open the Bush administration to prosecution by violating it by advocating the torture of the detainees?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous12:50 PM

    Glenn said: [T]he crux of the Court's decision was that -- regardless of federal law -- the Geneva Conventions themselves prohibit the type of military commissions which the administration created.

    But the Court has repeatedly held that there are no private rights of action under international treaties. So the reason Geneva prohibits the type of commissions the administration created is that Congress incorporated the laws of war--and thus, Geneva-- into the UCMJ. If Congress changes its mind, the administration can go forth with these tribunals.

    ReplyDelete
  20. But the Court has repeatedly held that there are no private rights of action under international treaties. So the reason Geneva prohibits the type of commissions the administration created is that Congress incorporated the laws of war--and thus, Geneva-- into the UCMJ. If Congress changes its mind, the administration can go forth with these tribunals.

    Yes, that was the whole point of my post. Nonetheless, we would still be violating the Geneva Conventions by doing so (unless we abrogated them first), even though it's (probably) true that the Supreme Court couldn't enforce the Conventions themselves in the absence of that federal law.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous1:08 PM

    Glenn:

    I wish every journalist would watch this clip of Dana Priest on Meet the Press this weekend, in which she very forcefully and clearly explains the intended purpose and function of the media in our system of government.

    Looks like the pressies are circling the wagons on the Sunday talking head shows. This set up was 4 reporters vs. Bill Bennett.

    Bennett starts by rattling off all the folks who have actually worked with or have been briefed on the Swift program who now say that the program is fatally compromised, including Democrats Lee Hamilton and John Murtha.

    Specifically, Bennett noted that Tom Kane of the 9/11 commission stated that the disclosure of details of this program (not the fact of the general existence of some program) has fatally compromised the gathering of enemy financial data.

    Then the NBC hostette quotes that political hack Richard Clarke, who had nothing at all to do with the Swift program, proclaiming on the op-ed pages of the perpetrator NYT that "every terrorist on the planet" knew about the details of the Swift and NSA Programs.

    Of course, this is why we kept catching terrorists with this program and why the NYT and other splashed this "old news which everyone knew" all over the front pages...

    Then, Dan Priest goes off into la la land claiming that foreign governments and banks have to cooperate with the United States. Since when? Lawsuits have already been filed around the EU to stop Euro cooperation with this program.

    The NBC hostette went off on a citation to authority logical fallacy waving around the Pulitzer prizes awarded by one group of pressies to the leaking pressies, including Priest and Risen, as if press self congratulation means anything at all.

    Finally, we get the Priest monologue on law which she has either never read, does not understand or is simply lying about:

    Priest: "It's not a crime to publish classified information except for nuclear secrets and signals intelligence...

    Let's stop here for a moment. Priest is ignoring the Espionage Act entirely, but does refer to the requirements of the COMINT statute and, in doing so, dumps on the NYT and others who have disclosed the electronic intelligence gathering of the NSA and Swift programs.

    Priest: Why Isn't it a crime? Because the Framers of the Constitution wanted to protect the press so they could perform a basic role of government oversight...

    Whoa, let stop right here.

    I challenge anyone here to point out to me the provision of the Constitution which provides the Press a role in government oversight and excuses them from the statues barring disclosure of classified information.

    To save you a little time, it sure isn't in the First Amendment. In fact, every time the press tries this argument in front of court attempting to preserve a source, they lose.

    Bill Bennett was rolling his eyes as Priest was displaying her ignorance or active misrepresentation of the law.

    Then Bennett slaps Priest and the others down...hard.

    In a voice dripping with sarcasm, Bennett notes that this issue is not about winning Pulitzers. Rather, we are talking about the security of the nation and the President, whether you like him or not, was elected by the people to make those decisions, not the press.

    Bennett further noted that Katherine Graham admitted that the press disclosure in 1983 of classified information concerning communications between Iran and the Hamas terrorists helped lead to the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon.

    When Bennett reminded the pressies that we are at war, they started squealing like stuck pigs.

    Priest literally started whining that she received emails thanking her for her disclosure, at which Bennett snarked that she did not want to put her disclosure to an opinion poll.

    Then Priest continued to whine that some people (i.e. the Donkey press) thought that the Administration "went too far" with these programs and disclosing them (to the enemy) created a "necessary debate."

    The clip them cuts off mercifully for Priest, who was being made to look like a fool.

    Folks, if you think the pressies outnumbering Bennett 4-1 in an ambush show won that exchange, you are deluded.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous1:16 PM

    If Democrats want terrorists to fall under the Geneva Convention let them say so. My guess is most won't, if they're smart.

    Of course, what Jonah is glossing over is that it doesn't matter in this matter what Democrats or Republicans want. The Court has already decided the issue: the Gitmo detainees do fall under the minimal protections of Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions.

    If Jonah doesn't like that and wants to do something about it (other than making irrelevant demands of Democrats), let him stand up and say that the Congress should remove the United States from the Geneva Conventions. My guess is he won't, if he's smart.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous1:19 PM

    I'm saying exactly what I said: that regardless of one's views on whether the Conventions really were intended to cover terrorists and non-uniformed combatants....

    It is amazing that there can even be a debate about whether the conventions apply to non-uniformed combatants. Yes, the 3rd convention is ambiguous on this point. But the 4th is not. The 4th was written in 1949 to cover the gaps in the previous 3, and unambiguously was intended to cover all persons not covered by the other 3.

    Sometimes there is confusion on this point because the 4th uses the term "civilian", and in common vernacular this connotes "innocent bystander". But the definitions within the 4th make it clear that "civilian" means everyone not covered by the other 3.

    Some confusion is also generated by the special provisions for "spies" -- but those are extremely limited.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous1:26 PM

    Of all the astounding developments of this extremist Republican era, perhaps the most astounding is how Supreme Court Justices routinely have interpreted US law to be the opposite of what it actually says.

    One key aspect of this has been the relationship between treaties and laws. Both have equal standing under the Constitution, and therefore one may supplant another.

    However the President cannot legally choose to unilaterally ignore a treaty anymore than he can choose to ignore a law. Yet Bush did this in early 2001 with the Test Ban Treaty and there was nary a peep from Congress or the Press in response.

    Similarly, the President cannot void the Geneva Conventions, despite what the extremist Republicans say, without an act of Congress or a new Treaty that supplants the Convention Treaty.

    What's amazing is that now Congress is considering Bills in which the U.S. effectively opts out of portions of the Conventions. Stunning. Who would have thought, in 2000, that the U.S. would by 2006 not only be a nation that routinely tortures, but also a nation that no longer follows the Conventions?

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous1:29 PM

    Glenn:

    I enjoyed reading your observations on the Hamdan decision and the Geneva Conventions.

    Congress is asking for trouble and renewed litigation if it fails make clear that the UCMJ is not incorporating and enforcing the Geneva Conventions.

    Now that the Court has opened this Pandora's Box, I expect law suits attempting to apply to the illegal combatants at Gitmo the full panoply of Geneva Convention rights due to legal combatants.

    That simply offers Kennedy too much of a temptation to go off on another one of his jags rewriting the law.

    The Geneva Conventions expressly limited their protections to combatants who followed the laws of war to encourage civilized behavior in the prosecution of warfare. The enemy we are dealing openly flouts the idea of the law of war and intentionally prosecutes war against our soldiers in the most barbaric manner. I need only to remind you of the torture, mutilation and massacre of the two Marines just recently. It would be a grave mistake to reward this kind of barbarity.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous1:47 PM

    Anonymous said...

    It is amazing that there can even be a debate about whether the conventions apply to non-uniformed combatants. Yes, the 3rd convention is ambiguous on this point. But the 4th is not. The 4th was written in 1949 to cover the gaps in the previous 3, and unambiguously was intended to cover all persons not covered by the other 3.

    Sometimes there is confusion on this point because the 4th uses the term "civilian", and in common vernacular this connotes "innocent bystander". But the definitions within the 4th make it clear that "civilian" means everyone not covered by the other 3.


    The 4th Geneva Convention is meant to protect the general population of a country at war, not combatants - legal or illegal.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Oooh, yeah. That will teach the Republican Party a lesson. If only we could all be so principled. See, because both sides are equally bad. Please.

    There are, broadly speaking, two types of people with whom you can work in opposing the administration's abuses of executive power: (1) liberals and (2) principled conservatives and other non-liberals who nonetheless see that those abuses pose a threat to the country.

    If you're going to insist that those in group (2) become all-out liberals before you are willing to work with them, then you are doing an enormous favor for the President.

    However the President cannot legally choose to unilaterally ignore a treaty anymore than he can choose to ignore a law.

    True, but contrary to much of waht I have been reading, there is no question that the U.S. can renunciate a treaty if Congress and the President both decide that we should. It may not be a smart, nice, moral thing to do, but it is legally permissible.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous1:54 PM

    Supreme Court ruling troubles GOP senators

    By PETE YOST
    ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

    WASHINGTON -- Of all the steps the Supreme Court could have taken to undercut President Bush's legal position in the war on terror, applying international law to al-Qaida probably would have been the worst.

    That development came to pass Thursday and now Republicans are rushing to protect the cornerstone of Bush's thinking: Suspected terrorists are not entitled to protection under the Geneva Accords.

    Sens. Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham said Sunday that Congress must address the Supreme Court ruling embracing Article 3 of the conventions in the military commission case of Osama bin Laden's former driver.

    Article 3 prohibits outrages upon personal dignity, "in particular humiliating and degrading treatment," and bars violence, including murder, mutilation and torture.


    In an election year, declaring that international law governs the war on terror reminds voters of some of the Republican administration's lowest moments: controversies over Justice Department "torture" memos and allegations of abuse against detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    McConnell, R-Ky., the second-ranking GOP leader in the Senate, said the 5-3 court decision "means that American servicemen potentially could be accused of war crimes."

    "I think Congress is going to want to deal with that," McConnell said on NBC's "Meet the Press." He called the ruling "very disturbing."

    The Geneva Conventions' Article 3 is "far beyond our domestic law when it comes to terrorism, and Congress can rein it in, and I think we should," said Graham, R-S.C., assigned as a Reserve Judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Graham spoke on "Fox News Sunday."

    Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., also expressed concern about the decision, saying it "is somewhat of a departure, in my view, of people who are stateless terrorists." McCain appeared on ABC's "This Week."

    McConnell wants Congress to deal with the Geneva Accords issue at the same time it addresses the court's overturning of the military commissions created to try a limited number of detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

    Addressing the commission issue, McCain and Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said Congress might devise broader changes than the White House wants in trials of detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

    As a starting point for debate, McCain said Congress should embrace the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the bedrock of military law protecting the rights of accused soldiers. The Bush administration has skirted the code for nearly five years in dealing with Guantanamo Bay prisoners it has classified as enemy combatants.

    Specter said "we have to reconcile" what the Bush administration thinks it can do and what the Supreme Court decision says. Specter spoke on CBS' "Face the Nation."

    Many Republicans in Congress say detainees in the war on terror should not have the same legal protections as those in the military. Congress, they say, should give its imprimatur with little or no change to the Pentagon's military commissions.

    McCain agreed that justice afforded to enemy combatants "shouldn't be exactly the same as applied to a member of the military." He added, however, that the Uniform Code of Military Justice is "a good framework."

    The Supreme Court said Bush's military commissions violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the four Geneva Conventions signed in 1949.

    Under military commission rules, the court noted, such panels may block an accused and his civilian lawyer from ever learning of evidence the prosecution presents that is classified. In addition, commissions can permit the admission of any evidence it deems to have probative value to a reasonable person.


    It appears plagerism is rampant. The Administration apparently has lifted its military commissions playbook from Kafka with no acknowledgement to poor Franz.

    But on the bright side, we'll never have to worry about the ultimate outrage ("that American servicemen potentially could be accused of war crimes") once Russ Feingold and the Progressive Patriots put all those patriotic military candidates in office.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Bart parroted:

    The Geneva Conventions expressly limited their protections to combatants who followed the laws of war to encourage civilized behavior in the prosecution of warfare.

    No, Bart, you are wrong.

    If your comment had been limited to the 3rd convention it would have been defendable. But I strongly urge you to read the 4th:

    http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

    To whom does this convention apply? See article 4: "Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals."

    Pretty clear, don't you think?

    You might hope that the rest of the text of article 4 may provide a loophole for the Bush administration in some cases, but that loophole only applies to part of the convention. Article 13, at the beginning of Part 2, makes it clear:

    "The provisions of Part II cover the whole of the populations of the countries in conflict, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, nationality, religion or political opinion, and are intended to alleviate the sufferings caused by war.:

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous2:40 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Bart: The Geneva Conventions expressly limited their protections to combatants who followed the laws of war to encourage civilized behavior in the prosecution of warfare.

    No, Bart, you are wrong.

    If your comment had been limited to the 3rd convention it would have been defendable. But I strongly urge you to read the 4th:

    http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm


    I did reread the definitions in the 4th Convention before posting this:

    Bart: The 4th Geneva Convention is meant to protect the general population of a country at war, not combatants - legal or illegal.

    Anonymous: To whom does this convention apply? See article 4: "Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals."

    You are not posting all of the relevant definitions and limitations of the Part I of the 4th Convention.

    To start, let's post all of the relevant parts of Article 4, including the key portion (bolded) which you omitted:

    Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

    Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it.


    Al Qaeda and the Taliban do not fall under this definition as they are not nationals of a state bound by the Convention. Therefore, they do not enjoy the protections of Part I of this Convention.

    Furthermore, "persons" are not combatants. Combatants are defined in the earlier Conventions. The purpose of the 4th Convention was not to replace the prior Conventions.

    Furthermore, Article 2 limits Part I of the 4th Convention to situations of war between signatories or a signatory and a non signatory third party who follows the Conventions:

    Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

    The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

    Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.


    al Qaeda and the Taliban are not a signatories nor do they follow the Geneva Conventions.

    Finally, the protections of Part I of the 4th Convention are geographically limited to:

    Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply...

    Even if combatants were covered under Part I, al Qaeda and the Taliban were not captured in a conflict occurring in the territory of a signatory.

    Part II of the 4th Geneva Convention lays out most of the rights in this document and is limited to:

    Art. 13. The provisions of Part II cover the whole of the populations of the countries in conflict, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, nationality, religion or political opinion, and are intended to alleviate the sufferings caused by war.

    Once again, al Qaeda and the Taliban are combatants, not the general population of a signatory country.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Al Qaeda and the Taliban do not fall under this definition as they are not nationals of a state bound by the Convention.

    They however remain nationals of whatever nation they're from. Is Bin Laden no longer a Saudi? And who makes that determination?

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous2:52 PM

    Totally agree with Fein/Federalist statements.

    Curious: Given the vague phrase "war on terror" who can and can't be held as a prisoner of war for an indeterminate time? What is the definition of a prisoner of war? When and for whom does the due process clause apply? Only to U.S. citizens or not even to them in the case of war/their characterization as a "prisoner of war"?

    ReplyDelete
  33. I have to agree with the commentators above who said they were less than impressed by the Fein interview.

    I don't think this has anything to do with insisting someone be a liberal to protest the lawlessness of the Bush administration. I think it's just that he doesn't seem to hold to that standard very well.

    The biggest piece of evidence here is his positive take on Alito and Roberts. He dodged the question on Roberts' appellate court decision. It would be interesting to see what he would say now that he knows that Alito -- like Scalia and Thomas -- came down on the side of lawlessness in Hamdan.

    I also was basically baffled by his comments on the 2004 election. Given that he already knew about, in his own words, "Bush’s claim of power to detain indefinitely illegal combatants on his say-so alone, and his utopian and calamitous policy in post-Saddam Iraq pivoting on the premise that democracy would emerge spontaneously from the Tigris and Euphrates after 4,000 years of dormancy" it's hard to see how he could be too serious about Bush's lawlessness if he still voted for him in 2004. Granted the illegal spying had not been on display then -- but Bush's lawlessness was fairly clear from many sources. Certainly the legal theories that purport to justify them were already public.

    The only way one could be serious about these issues and still vote for Bush in 2004 would be to have a view of Kerry that is frankly unrealistic -- based on the bizarre ideas of the left that routinely go around right-wing circles, as if Kerry were equivalent to Noam Chomsky.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous3:16 PM

    bart says...

    Even if combatants were covered under Part I, al Qaeda and the Taliban were not captured in a conflict occurring in the territory of a signatory.

    Court says...

    The President has stated that the conflict with the Taliban is a con-flict to which the Geneva Conventions apply. See White House Memo-randum, Humane Treatment of Taliban and al Qaeda Detainees 2 (Feb. 7, 2002), available at http://www.justicescholars.org/pegc/archive/ White_House/bush_memo_20020207_ed.pdf (hereinafter White House Memorandum).

    ...read that memo and you will find that Bush says...

    I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of
    Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva
    as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that
    authority at this time. Accordingly, I determine that the provisions of
    Geneva will apply to our present conflict with the Taliban. I reserve the
    right to exercise the authority in this or future conflicts.


    In otherwords, the United States continued to recognize Afghanistan under the Taliban as a High Contracting Party to the Geneva Conventions, even though the Bush administration was of the opinion that they had the option to suspend Geneva obligations with regard to Afghanistan because of the change in Afghani government/regime in the intervening time since Afghanistan became a signatory to the Conventions.

    The Gitmo detainees captured in Afghanistan were party to a conflict occuring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous3:41 PM

    The NYT is tying itself in knots trying to spin their disclosure of the NSA and Swift programs.

    First, the NYT and its supporters have been peddling the line that the enemy knew all about the programs which it disclosed.

    Yesterday. Lichtblau went on CNN and claimed that he had a right to publish this information because his public had a "right to know."

    The implication of these two arguments is that you readers of the NYT are too stupid to figure out what thousands of uneducated, religious nut job terrorists around the planet and living in caves have known for years and you needed Eric Lichtblau to get you up to speed.

    On second though, after seeing some of the inane defenses for the NYT, maybe Lichtbau has a point about the "intelligence" of his readership.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Thanks for another great post. Over at C&L, I pushed a similar point - even if you feel the "casino" line was a cheap shot, Priest absolutely demolished Bennett. Considering he's blustered she should be in jail, I feel she was restrained and is allowed a (rather witty) jab. He's consistently misrepresented or obstinately misunderstood statutes on classified information, and about his only argument pattern consists of pointing out whether he thinks someone likes George Bush or not. In contrast, Priest's argument is substantive.

    Regarding the tribunals, there's little question the Bush administration wants to be able to execute prisoners based on hearsay evidence and testimony acquired through torture. Their disingenuous fear-mongering about terrorists being "put back on the streets" is despicable. I'll be doing a post on all this later, but if you can't convict a terrorist in a military court martial, you've got serious problems - or no case. I had not thought of the war crimes angle, so thanks for pointing that out - it's a key point that Congress should have to face. I'm still reading through the Hamdan case, but it makes me happy, while I remain dismayed that Congress is in a mad rush to make very bad law to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Military courts martial are more than capable of handling terrorists. The only problem Congress wants to solve is that of Bush's shattered credibility, to try and restore the illusion of legality to his regime.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous3:53 PM

    Ron Suskind was just on the radio hawking his book The One Percent Doctrine. Based on that interview, I am not exactly sure why the left is using him as their latest anti Bush source.

    Suskind said that he knew about the Swift program and refused to publish it and several other classified programs of which he is aware to avoid damaging the national defense.

    Far from being a critic of the Cheney "one percent doctrine," which is essentially that WMD are so devastating that if there is a one percent chance al Qaeda can get them, the US needs to act first to stop them.

    Then Suskind lays out a horror show of instances where al Qaeda was attempting to get nukes or chemical WMD and then attempted to gas the NYC subway. He said the government found out about all of this before the war and decided that they simply could not risk al Qaeda in Iraq getting the same from Saddam and going through with another attack on the US with WMD.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous4:00 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Curious: Given the vague phrase "war on terror" who can and can't be held as a prisoner of war for an indeterminate time?

    The AUMF identified al Qaeda and its allies as the enemy. So long as our war with al Qaeda and its allies continues, their combatants can be held.

    What is the definition of a prisoner of war?

    See the First and Second Geneva Conventions. We follow those to determine combatants who do and do not qualify as POWs.

    When and for whom does the due process clause apply?

    The DPC has never been applied to foreign enemy combatants before. However, who knows what Kennedy might invent the next time he is given the opportunity.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous4:00 PM

    The implication of these two arguments is that you readers of the NYT are too stupid to figure out what thousands of uneducated, religious nut job terrorists around the planet and living in caves have known for years and you needed Eric Lichtblau to get you up to speed.

    That is only their implication when combined with a desire categorize and castigate Lichtblau or the NYT readership. The less prejudiced, more benign and more rational implication is simply that terrorists would for sometime now have had an interest in persuing a knowledge of the public statements of the Bush administration and others regarding the monitoring of financial transactions, whereas most of the readers of the Times would not have had reason to take note of such matters until they were rightly and properly placed in the context of the Bush administration's jealous acquisition of executive power unchecked by any other branch of government.

    ReplyDelete
  40. which is the current Republican Party in a nutshell. My question for Mr. Fein nevertheless remains: What is he going to do about this? Vote yet again for people who fit the above mold? Or is he prepared to dispense with the false equivalency about the rank partisanship of "both sides," and work to send his side into the wilderness to get its priorities back in order?

    One thing Fein has done is written widely - including in conservative circles - that the misconduct engaged in by the Bush administration is so serious that it constitutes impeachable offenses. He said that within 10 days after the NSA scandal was first revealed and hasn't stopped saying it.

    When you find a prominent Democrat who has been doing that much (outside of, say, Russ Feingold and John Conyers), let me know.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous4:21 PM

    Anonymous said...

    bart says...Even if combatants were covered under Part I, al Qaeda and the Taliban were not captured in a conflict occurring in the territory of a signatory.

    Court says...

    The President has stated that the conflict with the Taliban is a con-flict to which the Geneva Conventions apply. See White House Memo-randum, Humane Treatment of Taliban and al Qaeda Detainees 2 (Feb. 7, 2002), available at http://www.justicescholars.org/pegc/archive/ White_House/bush_memo_20020207_ed.pdf (hereinafter White House Memorandum).

    ...read that memo and you will find that Bush says...

    I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva
    as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time. Accordingly, I determine that the provisions of
    Geneva will apply to our present conflict with the Taliban. I reserve the right to exercise the authority in this or future conflicts.

    In otherwords, the United States continued to recognize Afghanistan under the Taliban as a High Contracting Party to the Geneva Conventions, even though the Bush administration was of the opinion that they had the option to suspend Geneva obligations with regard to Afghanistan because of the change in Afghani government/regime in the intervening time since Afghanistan became a signatory to the Conventions.

    The Gitmo detainees captured in Afghanistan were party to a conflict occuring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties.


    You are partially correct.

    The President chose to treat the Taliban as covered under Part I of the 4th Geneva Convention because Afghanistan was previously a signatory before the Taliban conquered Afghanistan, which effectively means that the Taliba will be treated "humanely." However, this Convention does not extend POW rights to the Taliban.

    Try reading the rest of the memorandum...

    Paragraph 2(d): Based on the facts supplied by the Department of Defense and the recommendations of the Department of Justice, I determine that the Taliban detainees are unlawful combatants and, therefore, do not qualify as prisoners of war under Article 4 of Geneva. I note that, because Geneva doee not apply to our conflict with al Qaeda, al Qaeda detainees also do not qualify as prisoners of war.

    ReplyDelete
  42. md

    Neither of the people you cited are Democrats.

    They're Libertarians.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous5:19 PM

    bart says...

    Try reading the rest of the memorandum...

    No, try reading the rest of the relevant portion of the memorandum and the Court's opinion of that portion. The question of whether the Gitmo detainees were party to armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties trenches on Common Article Three, so your reference to the memo's treatment of Article Four in 2(d) is not apposite. The relevant portion of the memo is 2(c), in which Bush claims that Article Three does not apply to al Qaeda because the conflict is international in scope -- which the Court rejected.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous6:09 PM

    Glenn writes: I think this argument is more serious than you suggest.

    l. A lot of the people at Guantanamo are dangerous terrorists.


    What are their names, Glenn? Is this public information because if so, we would have their names, wouldn't we? You are making an assertive statement containing a declarative sentence. Can you back it up?

    2. The fact that some who were held there were innocent doesn't mean they are all innocent.

    This is true. But it's a general statement containing no information about whether there are in fact people there who are not innocent. It merely points out that just because some are innocent, no conclusion can be reached that all are innocent. But it hardly proves that some being held there are not innocent.

    3. There really are dangerous terrorists who want to unleash very serious attacks on the U.S., and some are undoubtedly at Guantanamo.

    How do you know this? What source of information do you have that we do not that "some are undoubtedly at Guantanamo"?

    A hunch? The law of probablities? What?

    Glenn, these statements of yours need explanation, as they don't follow the rules of logic.

    Glenn writes:
    There are, broadly speaking, two types of people with whom you can work in opposing the administration's abuses of executive power: (1) liberals and (2) principled conservatives and other non-liberals who nonetheless see that those abuses pose a threat to the country.


    I don't get this either. Shouldn't you have written "some liberals?"

    A large segment of the Democratic Establishment would describe themselves as "liberal." As noted ad nauseum on this site, they have hardly held this Administration's feet to the fire with regard to abuse of executive power. In fact, it appears the most established "liberals" see him more as a seat warmer.

    Stephen: interesting post. I am reading up on Noam Chomsky and saw this in a description of him:

    He considers himself a Zionist in the traditional sense.

    Could someone here I trust (like Cynic or Glenn) tell me what is meant by a "Zionist in the traditional sense" as I don't know what that means. For instance, would "traditional Zionists" be anti- neocons?

    Also, cynic, I think you read many of the comments here. If so, have hypatia or jao ever addresssed the issue of the recent SC decision? If I remember correctly, both had staked out positions that the "conservative" Federalist Society justices would vote differently on this type of case than they just did.

    Am I wrong in stating what hypatia and jao had predicted?

    Do they agree with the minority ruling in this recent case?

    Thx.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Aren't we also obligated to follow the rules of the Hague Convention under the US War Crime Act?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous6:25 PM

    Fein is extremely enigmatic. It's not usual for a person to be so right about some things, and so wrong about others when it's the same basic principles which are involved in each matter, principles to which he seems to have a spotty alliance.

    Question to Glenn:

    Bruce Fein is a conservative Republican who has said some very good things. You quote him often.

    Paul Craig Roberts is another well known person, a paleo-Republican according to most, although I believe he describes himself as essentially "non-partisan" in terms of ideas, a description which would appear to be accurate.

    More people have probably heard of Paul Craig Roberts because of his long public career, high position in the Reagan Administration, business career and widely read syndicated columns than have heard of Bruce Fein.

    Have you disagreed with even one word in any article Paul Craig Roberts has written in the last four years?

    Can you cite any single other person who has been more outspoken in defense of the Constitution and civil liberties, more moral, more critical of Bush and the neo-con agenda or more passionate in defense of the ideas with which you are currently concerned?

    Why do you never mention his name in your lead posts or quote him??

    This continues to mystify me.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous6:26 PM

    While I agree with some of his conclusions, my objection to the Fein's interview is not that he is "not a liberal" but that he is basically dishonest - false equivalences, pointless name-calling, pulling the sure-fire "Hillary card".

    There were plenty of instances of Bush's overreach prior to the 2004 election (Padilla, Abu Graib, phoney WMD ... personally I had so much outrage fatigue by this point I could hardly read a newspaper) yet he is only now speaking out. Could it be that low poll ratings are driving this rather thin defection?

    As far as the dearth of Democrats calling for impeachment, I think Harry Reid got it right - who wants Cheney for president? Besides, impeachment (or any other meaningful investigation with subpoena power) will not happen under Republican rule - it is a moot point.

    Sorry, but I did not see any meaningful dialogue in this interview - just some self-serving ass-covering.

    ReplyDelete
  48. l. A lot of the people at Guantanamo are dangerous terrorists.

    What are their names, Glenn?


    Tell me what you would consider "evidence". I ask because I suspect that if I tell you my basis, you will disregard it as not being real evidence. Are findings of guilt by tribunals sufficient? Acknowledgment of Al Qaeda affiliations by human rights groups? Confessions? I'm not trying to be coy - I just want to know what standard of evidence you're demanding before doing the work to demonstrate that some of the Guantanamo detainees are, in fact, terrorists.

    Have you disagreed with even one word in any article Paul Craig Roberts has written in the last four years? . . .

    Why do you never mention his name in your lead posts or quote him??


    I would actually dispute that Roberts is better known than Fein. I'd say it's clearly the other way around, because Fein has been so visible in conservative circles well after he left the Reagan Administration.

    I like and largely agree with Roberts. I think he's a great writer and a very impassioned advocate for the Constitution. I have no problem with him of any kind.

    I don't have a great reason for citing Fein over him, other than the fact that I believe Fein has more credibility among actual conservatives.

    I don't really cite Fein because he says such unique things about these issues. I cite him to demonstrate that true conservatives ought to be just as offended by this administration as anyone else. And this is purely anecdotal, but many conservatives think that Roberts is prone to imprudent and even outlandish statements, whereas I have never heard that about Fein.

    I'm not saying they're right. But I cite Fein as a way of talking to conservatives about these issues, and strictly from my own anecdotal experiences, he has more credibility among that crowd than does Roberts.

    ReplyDelete
  49. There were plenty of instances of Bush's overreach prior to the 2004 election (Padilla, Abu Graib, phoney WMD ... personally I had so much outrage fatigue by this point I could hardly read a newspaper) yet he is only now speaking out. Could it be that low poll ratings are driving this rather thin defection?

    OK, I have a good idea. Whenever anyone criticizes the administration, have a purity test ready to administer - Did they criticize them soon enough? Do they agree with liberal talking points on every other political issue? Are their motives for speaking out pure? Are they not only willing to stop supporting Republicans, but start actively advocating for the election of Democrats?

    If the answer to any of these questions is NO, drive them away, because they are impure and you don't want to work with them.

    There is no need for Bruce Fein. After all, there is an abundance of highly prominent, articulate conservatives speaking out against the Bush administration's abuses of power and calling for the President's impeachment. You can afford to attack him and drive him away.

    The last thing you want now are Converts. Really - the worst possible thing is for former Bush supporters to convert and begin opposing the Republicans. Whenever you see someone like that, make sure to attack them and tell them you don't want or need their support.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous7:00 PM

    "Acknowledgment of Al Qaeda affiliations by human rights groups? Confessions? I'm not trying to be coy - I just want to know what standard of evidence you're demanding before doing the work to demonstrate that some of the Guantanamo detainees are, in fact, terrorists."

    The standard I keep hearing is "they want to do us harm." All I can think when I hear that is, "well, so do millions of third-world Muslims (and non-Muslims), a number that has grown exponentially under Bush’s “leadership.” So, if we want to stop "the terrorists" we can try locking up half the world (at the rate things are going) or we can lock up just one.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous7:13 PM

    Anonymous said...

    bart says...Try reading the rest of the memorandum...

    No, try reading the rest of the relevant portion of the memorandum and the Court's opinion of that portion. The question of whether the Gitmo detainees were party to armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties trenches on Common Article Three, so your reference to the memo's treatment of Article Four in 2(d) is not apposite. The relevant portion of the memo is 2(c), in which Bush claims that Article Three does not apply to al Qaeda because the conflict is international in scope -- which the Court rejected.


    We were discussing the 4th Geneva Convention and Paragraph 2(d) is directly on point.

    Paragraph 2(c) has nothing to do with the 4th Geneva Convention. Are you now changing the subject to the 3d Geneva Convention?

    The fact that two different pluralities of the Supremes rewrote the 3d Geneva Convention is immaterial to what it actually says.

    Here is the "reasoning" of Stevens writing for the Court:

    The Court of Appeals thought, and the Government asserts, that Common Article 3 does not apply to Hamdan because the conflict with al Qaeda, being “ ‘international in scope,’ ” does not qualify as a “ ‘conflict not of an international character.’ ” 415 F. 3d, at 41. That reasoning is erroneous. The term “conflict not of an international character” is used here in contradistinction to a conflict between nations. So much is demonstrated by the “fundamental logic [of] the Convention’s provisions on its application.” Id., at 44 (Williams, J., concurring). Common Article 2 provides that “the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties.” 6 U. S. T., at 3318 (Art. 2, ¶1). High Contracting Parties (signatories) also must abide by all terms of the Conventions vis-À-vis one another even if one party to the conflict is a nonsignatory “Power,” and must so abide vis-À-vis the nonsignatory if “the latter accepts and applies” those terms. Ibid. (Art. 2, ¶3). Common Article 3, by contrast, affords some minimal protection, falling short of full protection under the Conventions, to individuals associated with neither a signatory nor even a nonsignatory “Power” who are involved in a conflict “in the territory of” a signatory. The latter kind of conflict is distinguishable from the conflict described in Common Article 2 chiefly because it does not involve a clash between nations (whether signatories or not). In context, then, the phrase “not of an international character” bears its literal meaning. See, e.g., J. Bentham, Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation 6, 296 (J. Burns & H. Hart eds. 1970) (using the term “international law” as a “new though not inexpressive appellation” meaning “betwixt nation and nation”; defining “international” to include “mutual transactions between sovereigns as such”); Commentary on the Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, p. 1351 (1987) (“[A] non-international armed conflict is distinct from an international armed conflict because of the legal status of the entities opposing each other”).

    Although the official commentaries accompanying Common Article 3 indicate that an important purpose of the provision was to furnish minimal protection to rebels involved in one kind of “conflict not of an international character,” i.e., a civil war, see GCIII Commentary 36–37
    , the commentaries also make clear “that the scope of the Article must be as wide as possible,” id., at 36.63 In fact, limiting language that would have rendered Common Article 3 applicable “especially [to] cases of civil war, colonial conflicts, or wars of religion,” was omitted from the final version of the Article, which coupled broader scope of application with a narrower range of rights than did earlier proposed iterations. See GCIII Commentary 42–43.


    In short, the Court recognized the plain language and the commentaries concerning the 3d Convention both indicated that this document was intended to apply to internal conflicts. However, they blithely abandoned the plain language on the ground that it was not made even plainer by the drafters. Pure and utterly unashamed legislating from the bench.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous7:21 PM

    You might want to listen to this instructive 1961 speech by JFK to the American Newspaper Publishers Association concerning the press' national security responsibilities.

    Here is the link to the audio:

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/014579.php

    It is amazing how much the once great Donkey party has changed since Vietnam.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous8:56 PM

    I read the comments section here on a regular basis.

    Many times I've felt compelled to join the discussion, but as always I become quickly disillusioned. The contrarians make impassioned arguments like: we should continue to torture ‘enemy combatants’ and that it is downright treasonous to even reveal that we, as a nation, are keeping people in secret prisons and torturing them.

    I just spent ten minutes pulling the apart the thread on why the Geneva Conventions should not apply to individuals our military captures on the battlefield.

    Jaw dropping. What have we as a nation become? We are debating whether we should treat people justly. I can’t fathom how we’ve arrived at this point.

    As demonstrated by Glenn’s post yesterday. There are individuals that are openly advocating the LYNCHING of other Americans. And, not based on any reasoned facts…No, that would make this sport of Treason Tag less enjoyable.

    This is a fascinating process to watch, the rise of an authoritarian form of government.

    And, a special note for Bart. I’m in awe of your ability. Facts and arguments are malleable to such a degree in your hands that I get scared as I follow you along in a thread. It’s all so reasonable as you make it appear. But, alas the awe becomes disgust. I can’t help it. There is nothing you won’t defend that doesn’t strike at the very heart of this country that I love so much. Creatively making excuses for behavior that is absolutely repugnant to our founding principles is not an activity that many would be proud to display. Reality will eventually be very unkind to those you defend so vigorously.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous9:21 PM

    Bart:

    Curious: Given the vague phrase "war on terror" who can and can't be held as a prisoner of war for an indeterminate time?

    The AUMF identified al Qaeda and its allies as the enemy. So long as our war with al Qaeda and its allies continues, their combatants can be held.

    Who or what is al Qaeda and how are the combatants determined to be al Qaeda? Or do we rely simply on whoever the government so wants to characterize?

    What is the definition of a prisoner of war?

    See the First and Second Geneva Conventions. We follow those to determine combatants who do and do not qualify as POWs.

    Again, I don't see that it will be so easy to make that determination, except to rely on the government's characterization.

    When and for whom does the due process clause apply?

    The DPC has never been applied to foreign enemy combatants before. However, who knows what Kennedy might invent the next time he is given the opportunity.

    You're saying if there are alleged al Qaeda who are Americans, they will be provided due process?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous10:24 PM

    bart says...

    We were discussing the 4th Geneva Convention and Paragraph 2(d) is directly on point.

    Paragraph 2(c) has nothing to do with the 4th Geneva Convention. Are you now changing the subject to the 3d Geneva Convention?


    No. We were discussing your claim:

    Even if combatants were covered under Part I, al Qaeda and the Taliban were not captured in a conflict occurring in the territory of a signatory.

    Now the question of whether a detainee was a party to "armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties" is and always has been apposite to Common Article Three, not Article Four, despite your propensity to indiscriminately shift your argument across distinct Articles of the Geneva Conventions. So, you have your choice: either your introduction of the question of whether the conflict occurred within the territory of a signatory was inapposite to a discussion of Article Four, or your citation to 2(d) of Bush's memorandum was inapposite to our discussion of Article Three.

    Say what you want about Article Four; declare to your heart's content that the Court's opinion on the applicability of Article Three is immaterial. Neither bothers me. And neither affects in the slightest the fact that the Court has ruled that the Gitmo detainees are due the minimal protections of Common Article Three.

    ReplyDelete
  56. It seems to me if Bush's opponents want to apply basic Geneva Convention standards (military court martial, human treatment) to Guantanamo without being accused of being friends of terrorists, they need to put a human face on it. Many people who were not predisposed to believe accusations of police brutality were outraged at the Rodney King videotape. So bring out those British brothers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or anyone else who has been released after being detained by mistake and can tell a story of wrongful detention and abuse. Then ask two questions:

    (1) Is it aiding terrorists to require a hearing before a court martial to determine that people we detain as "enemy combatants" really are the enemy?

    (2) Is it asking too much to require humane treatment of detainees when we haven't even determined if they are the enemy yet?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous5:20 PM

    I read the Schmookler interview with Fein, in which Fein expresses confidence that Roberts and Alito would not side with the Bush admin. Roberts, of course, recused himself, but has anyone seen a comment from Fein particularly about how Alito ruled? Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous7:20 PM

    I just LOVE to hear that 70% of the electorate is far left. Surely that is what the right is saying.

    ReplyDelete