I don't have a great deal of time today to post, so I will note a couple of matters for the moment, and may add to them throughout the day:
(1) Alan Dershowitz has a new and completely misguided article in The Independent in which he argues, in essence, that we ought to scrap all of the existing frameworks for the treatment of prisoners and detainees, including the Geneva Conventions, as well as the laws of war generally, because those laws are obsolete and not meant for this never-before-known evil embodied by the international terrorist. We should replace those now obsolete laws, he argues, with new laws which expressly permit the killing of civilians in order to kill terrorists, and which also permit the use of torture.
This new article is deliberately vague (he seems almost embarrassed by what he is arguing). For instance, while he claims he agrees that waterboarding constitutes "torture," he emphasizes when describing it that it causes "no physical after-effects" -- the same argument used by those who claim that this practice falls outside the bounds of torture. It is also worth noting how, as is so often the case, arguments which begin as an ostensible recommendation for American action morph almost immediately into a defense of Israeli actions.
Dershowitz's new article should be read in the context of his much more explicit prior advocacy of new American policies whereby our Government is expressly permitted to torture people, and whereby courts issue what he calls "torture warrants" to authorize the torture. The idea that we should simply abrogate the Geneva Conventions altogether so that we can act without restraints is something that we are going to hear more of from Bush followers. Beyond Dershowitz's article, it's already beginning.
The pretty justifying rationale Dershowitz uses to decorate his desire for torture is that torture -- along with the killing of innocent civilians -- are inevitable, and it is therefore better not to be hypocrites about it -- i.e., it's better to have the law endorse our conduct rather than act contrary to the law. But having the law expressly allow torture, along with attacks which knowingly result in the death of innocent civilians, is to legitimize and endorse that conduct as part of our value system. It is hard to overstate the consequences on every level of repudiating the values which have long defined who we are as a country. And that is to say nothing of the fact that such "legal authority" to torture and kill civilians -- as Dershowitz must know -- will never be confined to the circumstances in which Dershowitz sees them as justifiable.
This country already debated last year whether we want to be a country that tortures people, and we resoundingly rejected that proposition when the Senate passed the anti-torture McCain amendment by a vote of 90-9. But that is not going to stop the neoconservative prong of Bush followers (which includes Dershowitz) from doing everything possible, particularly in the wake of Hamdan, to not only continue using torture, but also to have American law expressly legalize it. Steven Poole at Crooked Timber has a good analysis of the new Dershowitz article, and Kieran Healy, also at CT, wrote an appropriately impassioned argument back when Dershowitz originally proposed the notion of "torture warrants." It is well worth reading again.
(2) Marty Lederman has a characteristically thorough and important post rebutting the most common myths being perpetrated about the Hamdan decision. There are reasonable grounds on which to disagree with multiple aspects of that decision, but as Marty demonstrates, Bush followers are simply distorting what the Court says in order to dispute it. The editorial by National Review purporting to "explain" why Hamdan was wrongly decided is probably the most egregious written example I've seen, as almost every one of their characterizations of the majority's reasoning is just factually false.
UPDATE:
(3) After I harangued them in an e-mail exchange (which I agreed not to disclose), RedState today finally issued what it apparently considers to be a "correction" to the post by Robert Hahn, published on Saturday (three days ago), which accused The New York Times of "warn(ing) would-be assassins" of security measures at Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld's vacation homes and thereby helping those who "have kidnapping on (their) agenda." It took them three days to issue a correction, so the original post already scrolled off the front page and had become a dead post. Rather than write a new post correcting their error, they simply tacked on the "retraction" to that old post where nobody would read it, and it said this:
[editor's note, by Erick] It appears that since this piece was posted, a spokesman for Donald Rumsfeld confirms that he did not object to the New York Times' story and apparently did give permission for his home to appear. There is no word on whether the permission involved pointing out security cameras.
As so many of these false accusers have done, RedState is acknowledging (some of) the subsequent evidence but still clinging to their insinuations that the NYT did something wrong ("There is no word on whether the permission involved pointing out security cameras"). But this "correction" is almost as misleading as the original false accusation itself, since the newly emerged evidence is not merely that Rumsfeld authorized the photograph, but much more importantly, that Rumsfeld's office and the Secret Service both said that there was no security threat as a result of the article (not to mention that multiple other media outlets, including NewsMax and Fox, had already published articles revealing the whereabout of their homes). To pretend that there is still the possibility that the NYT endangered their safety is simply to deny facts -- facts which they continue to conceal from their readers.
Beyond that, a "retraction" which is casually tacked onto a post three days after the fact -- when nobody will see it -- is worse than no retraction at all. That behavior is designed to allow the false accuser to claim that a retraction was issued while ensuring that nobody actually saw it. It is has the distinction of compounding the original reckless error with a deliberate dose of deceit. Unsurprisingly, Jeff Goldstein did the same thing, tacking a non-retraction retraction to the end of some old post that had already scrolled off his first page and which, as intended, only a small fraction of the people (if that) who read his original erroneous post would ever see.
These are the same people who rail on virtually a daily basis about the supposed lack of ethics and integrity among the "MSM," and yet they do not comply with even a fraction of the standards about which they so self-righteously sermonize (speaking of which, that glorified Crusader for Journalistic Ethics, John Hinderaker, has still failed to tell his readers about any of these facts despite hyping Malkin's accusations back on Saturday).
It is truly difficult to describe the lack of integrity and overwhelming propensity to deceive which is reflected by their inability to simply say: "I wrote a post the other day accusing the NYT of (intentionally and/or recklessly) endangering the lives of the Vice President and Secretary of Defense, but facts have now emerged (which I could have and should have obtained myself before making the accusation) which clearly demonstrate that that accusation is false." What does it say about someone who is incapable of doing that? And what does it say about the right-wing blogosphere that so many of their leading lights would rather cling to blatantly false accusations than admit in a forthright and clear way that they were wrong?
UPDATE II:
(4) I've been receiving an increasing number of e-mails telling me that my blog can't be read with the Firefox browser because it translates the color scheme in a way that makes it unreadable (it translates the background as dark brown rather than beige). I used to receive the same complaint from a small number of Mac users, but now it seems it's extended to Firefox as well. If you know anything helpful about this - why it is, how it can be fixed without switching templates, etc. - please e-mail me.
NOTE: Thanks for the responses, but there's no need to let me know if you use Firefox and have no problem. I realize the problem exists only for a small percentage of Mac and/or Firefox users and was hoping to find a solution to the quirk, though the consensus seems to be that it's probably just a slow-loading/congestion/dial-up problem at their end.
I don't have anything to say.
ReplyDeleteAnd i'm not going to reference that spare senator.
I was also rather shocked when I first heard the interview that Derschowitz did with NPR:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=4819386
Best link that I can find, it's a podcast in that feed.
On closer examination it would appear that his argument is that torture is utterly wrong, but our government can get away with using it because it's hidden in the shadows. He argues that by having a discussion about setting up rules and accountability will force the people that run our government to be accountable for their actions. To be accountable for whether the torture of individuals actually produced anything at all useful and was worth the damage to our reputation.
I believe that he's making this case in the belief that if torture were actually brought into the light of day and openly debated it would revolt the public to the point that it would actually be forbidden.
Whether this is the best way to go about this is another story. To bring accountability to our government, the way that SarBox requires CEOs and CFOs to sign off on quarterly statements making them accountable for the actions of the companies they are responsible seems like a good goal.
It’s really hard to read that Wisbang Blog and not be disgusted by the implied threat that if we have to obey the Geneva Conventions that we will be forced to start killing civilians.
ReplyDeletewe live in an age of the true "citizen soldier" -- the line separating the service member from the civilian populace is growing thinner and thinner….
(So we can no longer tell who is “military” and who is a “civilian” – this is because of our advance in technology and communications. What does this mean exactly?)
But if we insist on obeying the “law” (Geneva Conventions) this will be the result:
I've heard a lot of discussion about the consequences of this decision, and they bother me. Some former military have said that they foresee the issue becoming moot, as we will suddenly stop "capturing" so many prisoners. The fatalities will rise markedly.
So, instead of just capturing people, we’ll just kill them instead – it’s easier. And it will all be the fault of having to follow this outdated law.
Which brings me to these questions:
What about our allies, like Britain, are they talking about abandoning this “law” and if not, why not? Aren’t their soldiers facing the same threat as ours? Why can they obey the law, and we can’t? Why don’t they feel the Geneva Conventions are “outdated” and why aren’t they calling for their abandonment?
And if they continue to follow this law, how will the Brits respond to these charges that they are “more likely” than us to kill people rather than capture them?
Will they think this is a fair charge?
If torture is indeed an effective method for extacting useful information, then why do our intelligence services remain so clueless? I haven't seen any evidence that torture has gained us valuable insights into the activities of Al-Queda.
ReplyDeleteBut there is plenty of evidence that torture has diminished our status in the world community, has bred more terrorists, and has put more Americans at risk.
Dershowitz' general POV can be distilled into: "If Israel does it, the US should too."
ReplyDelete'Just because you're on their side, doesn't mean that they're on your side'. (T. Nielsen Hayden)
Or, why are we assuming that Israel is right in everything they do?
Torture, especially when we signed the Geneva conventions, is wrong. It's not part of our national self-image. Doing it does real damage to us as a country, and eventually as individuals.
Derschowitz's entire arguement rests on two false premeses.
ReplyDelete1) That somehow the threat from terrorism is some new and monsterous threat, unlike anything we've ever seen before; and
2)That the best way to fight it it militarily.
Terrorism kills fewer people evry year than lightning or peanut allergies. Sure it grabs headlines but if you took the total number of Americans killed by handguns every year, subtracted the number killed in every other industrialised country and divided by four, you would still have more people killed than on 9/11. This leads on to the second point.
Terrorism should be police problem, not a military problem. What shall we do with the Gitmo detainees? Put them on trial in American criminal courts. If we can rewrite the law to alow torture, we can surely write a law that makes terrorism a crime no matter where it takes place. The problem simply isn't big enough to require the military and all of the collateral damage that goes with it.
We should be using FISA, getting warrants and observing the rule of law. It works for drug cartells and the mafia, why not the terrorists
Can you imagine that if we were somehow attacked by someone for no reason and innocent civilians were killed and that because of that, the attacker rewrote their laws so that killing innocent people was OK, so long as it was in service of a larger goal?
ReplyDeleteGosh, just imagine if that happened, how pissed Americans would be. To be told that because, say, they worked in a building that represented some affront to some goverment or stateless entity their lives were morally expendable because that government or stateless entity had a larger point to make.
But I'm sure that it's completely different to an Arab who wouldn't mind dying because it's America grabbing the guy by the hair and dunking his head under water for a few minutes --- and not some other country or stateless entity killing them.
he argues, in essence, that we ought to scrap all of the existing frameworks for the treatment of prisoners and detainees, including the Geneva Conventions, as well as the laws of war generally, because those laws are obsolete and not meant for this never-before-known evil embodied by the international terrorist
ReplyDeleteIs this what passes for legal thought these days? We keep plenty of old laws on the books, and terrorists aren't new, so his argument (as you summarize it) moves from two false premises in the direction of the feral.
Sadism appeals to the terrified. It offers a way to retaliate for their feelings of helplessness. It doesn't matter that torture is illegal, doesn't work in interrogation, and only helps the enemy. Torture must be OK because it makes tiny men feel better about themselves.
Pathetic.
.
Didn't Dershowitz once have a career as a public advocate that the law had to apply to everyone in all circumstances, or the law would lose its moral authority?
ReplyDeleteAnother liberal becomes a conservative bedwetter on the issue of we've-never-seen-this-before-terrorism.
Has this moron noticed that other countries have faced more terrorism than we have and they manage to keep their committment to the rule of law?
If we give this up, the thing that makes us who we are, the thing our enemies hate, how is it that we "win" other than by some possible "body count"??
There doesn't appear to be any cause and effect, but one of Michelle Malkin's targets via promiscuous publication of telephone numbers -- posted under headlines about "sedition" -- has taken her life.
ReplyDeleteLike, you get an actual JUDGE to say, yes, go ahead, break this person's legs and crush his hands in the thumbscrews, but you're not allowed to use the strappado? And this OTHER guy, go ahead and burn out his eyes with a red-hot poker?
ReplyDeleteThis supposed "safeguard" - the judicial check - is totally illusory. The reason FISA judges rubber-stamp virtually every request is becuase the Government goes in and says: "Our agents and sources have gathered information that this person might be a terrorist and we need to listen in on their conversations" - no judge is going to reject the request becasue no judge wants to be the one who refused to allow the Government to listen in on what turns out to be Mohammad Atta's plotting discussions.
The same thing would happen with torture warrants. The Government would go in and say - "we need to torture detainee X because we think he might have ticking time bomb information and the only way to extract it is if we stick needles under his nails." What judge is ever going to deny such a request and risk being the cause of the next terrorist attacks.
All of that is to say nothing of the fact that many, many federal judges are unlimited worshippers of government authority, not to mention sadistic themselves. Nothing would be easier than obtaining "torture warrants."
"Torture warrants" - aside from being the most vile notion ever to start having federal judges issues and the U.S. use - would not only allow the Government the power to torture whoever it wanted, but would also give that torture the cover of judicial approval and legality.
It's probably both the single worst and most reprehensible proposal I've ever heard.
I wonder how many advocates for legalized torture would agree to voluntarily be on the receiving end of some of the practices ... and whether they would maintain their positions on the subject after being water-boarded, sleep deprived for days, or whatever else would pass for "legalized torture."
ReplyDeleteI am not advocating that we engage in such theatrics to debate the point; I am gobsmacked that somehow ditching the Geneva Conventions and legalizing torture are going to become part of the debate. What does our safety mean if we lose our national soul?
How, again, will we win the war of ideas?
(Oh, and the military will rightly be aghast ... annual training to reinforce the Laws of Armed Conflict stresses the need for adherence to LOAC and the Geneva Conventions, for practical and moral reasons. How many years in uniform did Derschowitz serve?)
"Torture warrants" - aside from being the most vile notion ever to start having federal judges issues and the U.S. use - would not only allow the Government the power to torture whoever it wanted, but would also give that torture the cover of judicial approval and legality.
ReplyDeleteIt's probably both the single worst and most reprehensible proposal I've ever heard.
This is one of very few issues I can't debate. If someone endorses this idea, that person and I operate from entirely different bases of morality and visions of American exceptionalism. No exchange with persons endorsing "torture warrants" (even typing the phrase seems surreal to me)could possibly be productive.
There just is nothing, at least for me, to say.
Check out A.L.'s post on "ignoring Hamdan"...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.anonymousliberal.com/
I notice although Dershowitz is arguing for pre-emptive strikes, his example of police shooting a bank robber's human shield involves a non pre-emptive death. Wouldn't pre-emptive strikes be more like cops shooting a missile into Starbucks while the robber's sitting there working on his next heist? But of course, that doesn't sound so reasonable.
ReplyDeletepeter:
ReplyDeleteIf torture is indeed an effective method for extacting useful information, then why do our intelligence services remain so clueless? I haven't seen any evidence that torture has gained us valuable insights into the activities of Al-Queda.
Oh, it gained us valuable information on the secret Terra-ist training camps that Saddam was running at Salman Pak. Knowing this, the U.S. military was able to secore the significant sites in Iraq (such as the oil ministry) and pass by those innocuous conventional munitions depots, leaving them unguarded.
Cheers,
Cheers,
~~~Not only were the protests against her personal, but at times she faced physical threats. A year ago, in the middle of the night, someone thrust a large metal pole through a window in the president’s home. Denton was in another room at the time, but had she been in the room where the glass was broken, she could have been seriously injured, according to a Santa Cruz spokeswoman. Several other times, protesters showed up at her door, refusing to leave. Several people who knew Denton said that she didn’t feel secure and there were rumors on the campus about her having around-the-clock security. The spokeswoman said that there had been some improvements in security, but that reports about around-the-clock security were exaggerations.~~~~
ReplyDeleteShooter...why didn't you include this when you quoted from the article?
A quote from Boyd: The Fighter Pilot who Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram:
ReplyDelete"Boyd, like Sun Tzu and Napoleon, believed in attacking with 'moral conflict'-that is, using actions that increase menace, uncertainty, and mistrust in the enemy while increasing initiative, adaptability, and harmony within friendly forces ... Boyd showed that maneuver tactics brought victory. To attack the mind of the opponent, to unravel the commander before a battle even begins, is the essence of fighting smart." - 337
Before some torture apologist seizes upon this quote as proof that we need to torture in order to "increase menace, uncertainty, and mistrust in the enemy," the opposite is in fact true. "They" are doing that quite nicely to us right now ... increasing our sense of menace and uncertainty (in our beliefs), to be sure. If we discard our values, we will lose; we cannot out-torture them, because to do so means we have no foundation of liberty to stand upon, whereas they are apparently quite willing to become martyrs, or to suffer for their cause (or at least they extol this). To torture them would be to vindicate their cause.
Torture, of course, would also further isolate us from world opinion, and decrease "harmony within friendly forces."
Boyd points to the guerillas--Mao, the Mongols--to show how moral warfare defeats larger, better funded armies. That does not bode well for us. However, this points to what should be an obvious strategy: a long-term effort to minimize support for radical Islamists by providing a rational & moral alternative and peeling off support for Al Qaeda. We can only win by being true to ourselves.
Glenn: The generally reasonable Kevin Aylward at Wizbang
ReplyDeleteMomentarily embarassed into reasonableness? It didn't last long, did it? His argument is sophormoric and ill-informed and Tristero over at Digby's. Has some thoughts on why we shouldn't take the bait when they conflate torture with security.
When The Playing Field Is Skewed To The Right.
When The Playing Field Is Skewed To The Right: Part Two
The same methods that worked for piracy and organized crime work for international terrorism. They are all virtually identical except the accent and emphasis is more on the political dimension now.
From shooter242 at 4:26pm:
ReplyDelete"I can see it hasn't occured to you that standard punishments in colonial times were worse than tortures today."
Bravo. Marvelous bait-and-switch. Truly worthy of Jonah Goldberg himself.
Oh, don't get me wrong: you're spot-on about the brutal nature of 'standard punishments' in eras past. Certainly the late eighteenth century was more 'humane' than the sixteenth, despite only limited advances in technology and the broader western society.
But unless you're advocating a return to the 'good ole days' and suggesting that our nation embrace the same mores as the period of its founding (complete with a revocation of every Amendment to the Constitution after the Tenth), I'd strongly advise you NOT try discussing this topic within the context of national security. One has nothing to do with the other in any practical sense and the advocacy of torture only stains the advocate as well as the victim of it.
Just spotted a typo: and it is therefore better not to be hypcorites about it
ReplyDelete"hypocrites"
Hope that's helpful.
God I love your blog. Read it every damn DAY.
ReplyDeleteBut you're going to repeat it anyway?
Yes, because I strongly believe that, as this past week's events with the lunatic attacks on the NYT reporters and photogrpahers shows, it is time for everyone, but these days especially the right, to consider what constitutes a "fair arsenal" in political wars. A real-life event such as I reported makes those on the receiving end of a rabid telephone brigade seem human, which or course, they are.
Malkin, among others, needs to learn that, altho I doubt she is capable of it.
No one believes torture is an effective method for extracting information, least of all the torturers. Torture is used simply as an instrument of brute state power, to emphasize the point that all must submit or be punished.
ReplyDeleteAside from its utility as a tool of state terror, the "information" extracted by force from torture victims, however false or useless it might be, provides a rationale for the torturers to justify their barbaric tactics as "necessary to protect us (sic)" from the depredations of...whomever. Such a rationale not only excuses abhorrent acts already committed, but justifies the continuation of such acts.
Dershowitz may wish to lie to himself or to us as to his reasons for codifying torture into law, but be not fooled: anyone who espouses torture of anyone for any reason has put himself beyond the realm of humankind and reveals himself to be a beast.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeletePeter said:
But there is plenty of evidence that torture has diminished our status in the world community, has bred more terrorists, and has put more Americans at risk.
Actually I haven't seen any of that, perhaps you could point out your sources for those conclusions?
Don't even answer that question. Glenn is right not to ban them... but, (and I can't believe I am about to say this), it serves no purpose to engage them. He knows very well those sources. He will ignore it until his nose is ribbed in it, than he will say it smells like a rose.
Our staunchest allies
Momentarily embarassed into reasonableness? It didn't last long, did it?
ReplyDeleteThe Wizbang article I linked to was by "Jay Tea," not Kevin.
The decision to torture comes first.
ReplyDeleteThe rationale is always secondary and ad hoc.
Shitter..."I can see it hasn't occured to you that standard punishments in colonial times were worse than tortures today."
ReplyDeleteAnd innocent people confessed to crimes they did not commit. They do so now because they are faced with the ingenious device of the "plea bargain". "Take the one year in county. If we go to trial and you lose, you are looking at 5 in the state pen."
Tristero over at Digby’s is having trouble framing this issue succinctly. I don’t have a problem with what Kevin Drum said, he just need to add that abandoning these conventions and acting like barbarians make us less safe not more.
ReplyDeleteIt needs to be framed in giving the terrorists a “victory” by adopting their tactics, methods and morals. Really, this isn’t that hard.
"The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile."
ReplyDelete- Napoleon Bonaparte
Napoleon to Berthier 11 Nov 1798, Corres., V, no. 3606 p. 128 quoted in - Napoleon on the Art of War
Glenn said:
ReplyDelete"Torture warrants" - aside from being the most vile notion ever to start having federal judges issues and the U.S. use - would not only allow the Government the power to torture whoever it wanted, but would also give that torture the cover of judicial approval and legality.
However, I would say that there is something more vile than "Torture warrants" and that's our government torturing people willy nilly in secret prisons without any judicial oversight.
I don't think the point of this debate is to say that all torture is warranted and that our government should be doing a whole lot of it. The Bush Administration has argued that the rules of war have changed since 9/11 and that they need new powers to be able to handle this new threat.
If that's the case then let's sit down and have a debate over what is now required and what works. We shouldn't take Bush's word that waterboarding is required and works, we should have actual oversight. We can decide that torture is indeed necessary and it will be used under certain conditions, but it's going to require the signoff of the President. By having the debate we can also come to the conclusion that there is NO case where torture is warranted.
Going back to the Hamdan case, the Supreme Court ruled that the President can't make up policy in the areas that congress has ruled. This leaves open the implication that he can in an area where Congress has not ruled. So let's sit down and have these debates and set the conditions on how we will react to these new threats, terrorists hiding in a crowd, suicide bombers, convicting terrorists, So that the President isn't free to do whatever he wants in a vacuum.
Ironically, the Geneva Conventions were established to prevent a downward spiral of violence. So, apart from the fact that torture does not work and is something no civilized nation should engage in, Geneva protects US soldiers.
ReplyDeleteAnyone willing to sacrifice it should ask if their enemies should be accorded the moral right to torture Americans. The next dictator the US faces in battle will certainly claim that it is ok to torture American soldiers according to the Golden Rule.
qw said...
ReplyDeleteTristero over at Digby’s is having trouble framing this issue succinctly. I don’t have a problem with what Kevin Drum said, he just need to add that abandoning these conventions and acting like barbarians make us less safe not more.
That's your opinion. I rarely ever read Drum. Tristero is far superior in every way.
I see it now: Televised torture sessions a la Elizabethan standards--with public gutting, drawing and quartering, and garrotting.
ReplyDeleteThe smiling faces of Mesdames Coulter and Malkin as they assiduously knit freedom flags through the spectacle will be branded and advertised in 30- and 60-second commercials whose jingles our children will skip-rope to.
The face of the new America: fearless and ruthless in the face of danger from beyond.
There is no debate about "whether or how much" torture works. EVEN IF it worked, which most acknowledge it does not, it is beyond the pale. It simply is not acceptable in any circumstance. There is no room in civilized society for ANY maltreatment of helpless captives...even IF they are the "worst of the worst," as Bush has said, baselessly, about those in Guantanamo.
ReplyDeleteI would say that there is something more vile than "Torture warrants" and that's our government torturing people willy nilly in secret prisons without any judicial oversight.
ReplyDeleteWRONG. The difference is that now, torture is certainly, definitely illegal. People can be be prosecuted for it.
You were in favor of waterboarding some months back, said it wasn't "really" torture, so forgive me if I doubt your true motives in calling for a "torture dialog."
We can decide that torture is indeed necessary and it will be used under certain conditions
We cannot decide that. There are no such circumstances.
You just get off on the idea of torturing prisoners. Admit it sicko.
However, I would say that there is something more vile than "Torture warrants" and that's our government torturing people willy nilly in secret prisons without any judicial oversight.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree. I prefer to have torture be illegal than to have our laws - which reflect our values - expressly create procedures where our courts approve of it.
If that's the case then let's sit down and have a debate over what is now required and what works.
We already had that debate, just last year. It culminated in the overwhelming passage by the Congress of the McCain amendment, which made it a crime to use torture in every single circumstance, with no exceptions. That was the decisive outcome of the debate. Why would another one be needed?
The President signed that amendment into law and then immediately declared his right to violate it. That's why pro-torture advocates keep pretending that we haven't had the debate yet, but the debate is already done. It's just that the administration doesn't consider itself bound by the results of democratic outcomes.
Glenn... Momentarily embarassed into reasonableness? It didn't last long, did it?
ReplyDeleteThe Wizbang article I linked to was by "Jay Tea," not Kevin.
Thank you for clearing that up and I apologize to Kevin. My comment was not intended to be a slight on you, but I apologize to you in case you were even a tinge offended. I confess I do not read rightwing thinkers and bloggers as much as I might. I tend to let smarter folks I trust do that for me. That's a compliment.
I don't know why this is even under discussion, except for the obvious reason of dividing the country. The professionals have made their position on torture quite plain. Some things are best left to the pros.
The Official Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association
As if you need anymore evidence that these people are frauds, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteThey see self-inflicted mind control as part of their "role" as footsoldiers in a larger philsophical war against "overthinking" (fact checking, cause and effect, etc.). In short: Too much "academia" leads to equivocation instead of action and will ultimately get us all killed.
Therefore controlling one own's mind to filter out inconvenient truths is a wonderful way to contribute to our ultimate survival when the chips are on the table.
It's short term loss (ignoring truths) to help a long term goal (being one monolithic force ready to fight evil when the time comes).
Therefore not only are they not interested in objective truth, actively ignoring it PROVES their loyalty to the cause.
-- WinSmith (from DKos)
Glenn, you should probably check this out.
ReplyDeleteShort version: two US Senators fabricate an exchange on the Senate floor in order to pretend Congress had limited judicial review, and then cited that phony exchange in an amicus curiae filed in the Hamden case.
In other words, they tried to manufacture the appearance of a law that did not exist.
Weird.
.
But unless you're advocating a return to the 'good ole days' and suggesting that our nation embrace the same mores as the period of its founding (complete with a revocation of every Amendment to the Constitution after the Tenth), I'd strongly advise you NOT try discussing this topic within the context of national security.
ReplyDeleteIt's the Eighth Amendment he'd like to abolish, the one that forbids "cruel and unusual punishment", but I'm sure he has no use for the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments either.
The pretty justifying rationale Dershowitz uses to decorate his desire for torture is that torture -- along with the killing of innocent civilians -- are inevitable, and it is therefore better not to be hypocrites about it -- i.e., it's better to have the law endorse our conduct rather than act contrary to the law.
ReplyDeleteThere is already a precedent for doing this: Nazi Germany. One of the means by which police loyal to the party were able to expand torturing prisoners held by prison system was that government officials decided that it was better to create official policies determining what is and is not permissible torture rather than continue with police torture absent any regulation. It was a "victory for the rule of law" that, for example, a "regular cane" was to be used to beat prisoners instead of any arbitrary implement.
And we all known how long that "victory" lasted...
Short version: two US Senators fabricate an exchange on the Senate floor in order to pretend Congress had limited judicial review, and then cited that phony exchange in an amicus curiae filed in the Hamden case.
ReplyDeleteA.L. wrote about that episode here when he was guest-posting back in (I believe) April.
Glenn asks:
ReplyDeleteWhat does it say about someone who is incapable of doing that? And what does it say about the right-wing blogosphere that so many of their leading lights would rather cling to blatantly false accusations than admit in a forthright and clear way that they were wrong?
It says that they are willing to torture. It says they are willing to destroy the very underpinnings of this great nation. It says many things worse about our media when they allow their voices to have an extraordinary place at the table of pundits.
One of the most sickening and ironic names EVER for a pundit show is Howie Kurtz' "Reliable Sources". The irony dripping from the mouths of individuals that...
sorry can't go on anger...to much...
Shooter, by picking and choosing which part to "excerpt" you were implying something that counters later reading in the article would possibly lead one to believe completely the opposite. She WAS very worried about security and had been attacked and harassed by protestors at her front door.
ReplyDeleteThe very things that Malkin and her minions have been "promoting" by the release of addresses, etc. Though not a direct result of Malkins war-cry (as far as I know)...the effects of that kind of behaviour are the same.
GMT...In other words, they tried to manufacture the appearance of a law that did not exist.
ReplyDeleteThey should be censured for that. It won't happen. This is nothing new, sadly, reading utter nonsense into the CR with the bad faith intent to deceive, but this is a new wrinkle.
Prunes said:
ReplyDeleteYou just get off on the idea of torturing prisoners. Admit it sicko.
Actually, wrong. I agree with you that there is no point where torture is really called for. However, from the evidence that our country is currently engaged in these tactics there are other people out there that don't agree with us.
Congress passed the Torture ban and the President decided to include a signing statement that it was not binding on him. I'm not sure how much more clear we can make this, but it needs to be a bigger public debate. The President has to realize that there are public consequences to using torture. With it occurring in distant secret prisons it's very easy to deny any wrong doing.
There are many in our country that conclude that it is ok to torture a "terrorist". The problem is that the Bush administration is very adept at using the Us vs Them approach to make this seem acceptable. People need to realize that it is Never acceptable and need to understand the reasons why.
To take the stance that this is obviously wrong and hence not worthy of debate is a bit naive since it appears that our own government doesn't hold our same beliefs law or no law.
Glenn said:
I don't agree. I prefer to have torture be illegal than to have our laws - which reflect our values - expressly create procedures where our courts approve of it.
And again I personally would agree, but this debate needs to be public and we need for all of our country to declare that these are our values.
There are news reports all over talking about how our government has used torture and there is no outcry. So the debate is not over. We can not simply say that Congres passed a law and we're done with it, the law is not being followed. The public is accepting the torture of people.
Shooter writes: All I needed to accomplish was demonstrate the Malkin angle was specious.
ReplyDeleteWhich you did not do; as I've said, my purpose was to put a human face behind all these folks receiving rabid, hate-filled telephone calls after hordes have been dispatched to fight "sedition" and "treason." This isn't some cyber-game here -- real human beings answer those telephones and hear that vile rage.
While I can't absolutely rule out any occasion for publishing telephone numbers of people beyond elected representaives at their offices, or customer service for a company & etc., those proper occasions would be few and far between, and certainly not when lunatics are sent out believing they are addressing traitor(s) or those abetting same.
Life is difficult enough without sending insane mobs after an individual.
To take the stance that this is obviously wrong and hence not worthy of debate is a bit naive since it appears that our own government doesn't hold our same beliefs law or no law.
ReplyDeleteOh, don't get me wrong. I'd like everyone to realize how important these trends are, and be furious over what has gone on.
But when bart is calling for a torture debate, I am certain it is for all the wrong reasons, as he has made his personal feelings on the matter plain in the past.
bart, if you now oppose waterboarding, feel free to correct me.
Bryan...There are news reports all over talking about how our government has used torture and there is no outcry. So the debate is not over. We can not simply say that Congres passed a law and we're done with it, the law is not being followed. The public is accepting the torture of people.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say this? Because a federal building hasn't been bombed yet? Are you serious? Or just deranged?
In one of his finer moments, Joe Biden made the point that (paraphrasing) "the reason we have these treaties is to protect our boys when they get captured"
ReplyDeleteIt was said emphatically to the AG, I believe during senate commitee testimony, and even Jon Stewart was impressed enough to put it up sans joke.
Anyway, it would be nice to believe we could convince everyone not to torture because it's just plain wrong, or because it's ineffective anyway, but I think it may come down to the lowest common denominator of ensuring US (and for Derschowitz, Israeli) soldiers don't get tortured by their opponents.
It was borne out in WWII where the conventions were observed on the Western Front by both sides, to mutual benefit and largely ignored by both sides on the eastern Front.
At Dieppe, the captured Canadians were shackled by the Germans as a reprisal for a captured canadian manual which stated German POWs were to be handcuffed.
It's quid-pro-quo. Torture theirs, they'll torture ours.
Time to revisit who's getting paid to lend their name to arguments.
ReplyDeleteThat's your opinion. I rarely ever read Drum. Tristero is far superior in every way.
ReplyDeleteDid you even read what Tristero said?
Tristero himself admits that he was having trouble being succinct on this issue in the second post, and he strongly supports coming out and saying he is in favor of the Geneva Conventions, which is what Drum did.
So, in his second post, Tristero is not saying anymore that Drum was “wrong” but more incomplete, and he didn’t adequately address the issue of keeping America safe with his brief statement of support for Geneva Conventions. On that, I’m with him completely, but I had no problem with Drum or Greenwald or anyone else coming out forcefully in favor of the Geneva Conventions.
Jonah Goldberg’s point was that Democrats wouldn’t dare say they supported them. I say that’s wrong, and all polls indicate that Goldberg’s on the more unpopular side of this issue, so not only it is the right “moral” position to take - it will keep us safer - and it’s a winning “political” position to take as well.
Ironically, the Geneva Conventions were established to prevent a downward spiral of violence. So, apart from the fact that torture does not work and is something no civilized nation should engage in, Geneva protects US soldiers.
ReplyDeleteYes, and more irony...the United States of America was at the forefront in pushing for the Geneva Conventions and other international law regarding human rights. This is a measure of how far we have strayed from our position of moral authority in the world in the past few years. As importantly, it was not 9/11 that precipated that decline but rather an illegal, preemptive invasion of a country that posed no threat to the US.
In short, we lost all moral authority on the day we first set foot in Iraq.
And BTW, torture's equivalent is incest or cannibalism. It is taboo, harmful to the best interest of society.
Hypatia... Life is difficult enough without sending insane mobs after an individual.
ReplyDeleteLife gets easier when you send sane, trained, non-torturing, law-abiding professionals out to restrain, detain and arrest insane mobs before they hurt themselves or somebody else. Does our current government still do that? Or is it too "liberal"?
"we're an Empire now," and if you don't understand what that means, then there is little hope for further improvement.
ReplyDeleteThe issue of torture and the slaughter of innocents is kind of fundamental to the operation of Imperiums, as any cursory review of historical material will reveal.
We don't have to go back to Ancient Rome for examples.
The late British Empire will suffice. Does anyone remember how the wogs were treated by the Brits?
Is it any wonder they rebelled?
And our own history is replete with examples of the "necessities" of Empire. Check out what happened in the Philippines during the extended conquest by America's finest (interestingly, many of those who went out a-conquering in those days were the offspring of defeated Southern Rebels.)
That America once held itself to a higher standard is all in the past now.
In order for there to be a Pax Americana, there has to be torture and there has to be the slaughter of the innocents. It is the way these things work.
Now, if you want to argue against Empire, then we might get somewhere.
prunes said:
ReplyDeletebart, if you now oppose waterboarding, feel free to correct me.
I think there has been some misunderstanding in the comments. Bart has not posted on this topic. I am not Bart, "B" names can be very confusing. I will very easily take the position unwaveringly that waterboarding is morally wrong.
My stance on this whole thing is that I believe that Dershowitz is not actually arguing that our country should condone torture, but that the Bush Administration has been doing a whole lot of bad things under the cover of plausible deniability and the fuzziness over executive power. That the solution to this is to make the items not fuzzy and restore the rule of law.
If the Bush Administration is saying we need to do horrible things, then back it up that this is the right and only thing to do and then be personally and publicly accountable for making that decision. If that is truly what Dershowitz's argument is, then I support that. And as a country, we should be having very public discussions over what we will and will not do.
qw said...
ReplyDeleteThat's your opinion. I rarely ever read Drum. Tristero is far superior in every way.
Did you even read what Tristero said?
Yes. It's personal preference. Sorry if it offends you.
Good grief, how could I make such a mistake! (the post reads entirely differently without my mis-attributed posting history behind it)
ReplyDeleteI deeply apologize, bryan.
Here's an extremely pertinent quote from Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift when he was on Hardball last week.
ReplyDeleteSWIFT: It‘s not whether they deserve it or not. It‘s how we conduct ourselves. It has to do where if we say that our opponent can cause us not to follow the rules anymore, then we‘ve lost who we are. We‘re the good guys. We‘re the guys who follow the rule and the people we fight are the bad guys and we show that every day when we follow the rules, regardless of what they do. It‘s what sets us apart. It‘s what makes us great and in my mind, it‘s what makes us undefeatable, ultimately
I find the fact that we're even having a discussion about torture, let alone that some people are coming out in favor, profoundly troubling. When we have become our enemy, then we no longer have the standing to attack the enemy. What next? A debate on the efficacy of beheadings in discouraging crime in cities?
here's the link.
Shorter Bryan...It's wrong but let's debate it.
ReplyDeleteIs that what you are saying? And the fact that Federal buildings haven't been bombed yet and the polls are only 70% against it. Deranged.
If you are going to answer anyway don't you think you should at least source something that refers to torture rather than garden variety America-hate? Come back when you have something relevant.
ReplyDeleteYour question is answered, regarding dislike of America, so you dismiss it as "America-hate".
Nice.
How does it smell in that fact-free bubble of yours?
.
you should at least source something that refers to torture rather than garden variety America-hate?
ReplyDeleteSo, in shooter's world, all the world saw the Abu Ghraib photos and decided "gee, we should LIKE Americans!"
Yes. It's personal preference. Sorry if it offends you.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn’t offend me, I like Tristero more than Drum too. Why would I be offended.
Since you can’t even be bothered to read the relevant posts, or address the issue being raised, there’s no point discussing it further.
We both like Tristero more than Drum. Not too enlightening was it?
A.L. wrote about that episode here when he was guest-posting back in (I believe) April.
ReplyDeleteYes, and back then it was a WTF kinda moment. Now we know why they did it.
.
Shooter.... They hate us for our freedoms! Not our torturing!
ReplyDeleteShooter, are you arguing that the use of torture improves our standing in the world? Even if you are arguing that it has no effect, you are insane. The fellow who posted that bit from Winston Smith over at Kos has you pegged. As he does most of the pro-Bush apologists.
Shooter can use google like anyone else. I just did. The key here is what Americans think: 2 to 1 against torture. Any idiot knows the global opinion is about 90% against. 99% against if you leave out North Korea and a few other fine places we wouldn't want to be asociated with. As far as I'm concerned, Shooter, you are like a bag lady pushing a shopping cart along on the sidewalk talking to back to a television in the cart upon which you are watching a program only you can see. You are not talking to me or anyone else here. The dialogue you are having is entirely in your own head.
QW... We both like Tristero more than Drum. Not too enlightening was it?
ReplyDeleteIf Drum read this, it might be.
glenn: A.L. wrote about that episode here when he was guest-posting back in (I believe) April.
ReplyDeleteI believe it was also mentioned in the court's decision--in a fottnote if I am not wrong.
Funny that the news media do not mention in interviews with Senator Graham.
I went over to wizbang to read the post Glenn wrote about. I wrote the following comment, for what it's worth (I'm sure it isn't worth much, but at least I thought it would get a warmer reception here):
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe nobody's reading these comments any more; it has been a whole day, after all. And if anybody here does read mine, I fully expect to have all knds of verbal abuse heaped upon my sorry head. Well, so be it.
These are the United States of America. I was born here and reared here. It's my homeland and I love it. It's a great and special place we live in here. But it isn't great or special because of divine right or manifest destiny. It's greatand special because of the great and monumental ideals we try to (and far too often fail to) live up to.
We're great and special only because we try to be decent and honorable; because we try to respect all people--even those who don't deserve it.
I don't argue that terrorists deserve mercy or decent treatment. If you really want to know the truth, I don't know that I always deserve mercy or decent treatment. I'm a sinner, too, and I've done some awful things in my life.
But we should be merciful and decent to others anyway--even to terrorists. We do this not because they always deserve it, not because they have always earned it, but because we should try to be better than they are. We owe it to ourselves to strive to make ourselves better people.
This puts us at a disadvantage, as we're fighting some people who have no compunctions about slaughtering helpless people. But if being the United States of America means anything, it means that we should try harder. It puts us at risk. It puts me at risk. But if you gave me a choice between dying as an American living in an America that seeks to be nobler, kinder, more generous and just generally better on the one hand, and on the other, living as an American in an America where we're willing to give into our worst instincts and treat some other, admittedly loathesome, people abominably in order to make us just a little safer, then I will choose the former without a second thought.
In short, I don't want us to treat terrorists well because I think they're decent people; I want us to treat them well because I want US to be decent people.
I think we owe ourselves that much.
And now, let the attacks upon my character, intellect and courage--or alleged lack thereof--begin!
Posted by: Bibblesnæð at July 5, 2006 05:27 PM
An example of how the debate on torture is not over. This weekend on "Meet the Press" Mith McConnell said:
ReplyDeleteAnd second, a very disturbing aspect of the decision was that the Court held Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applicable to American servicemen. And this means that American servicemen potentially could be accused of war crimes. I think Congress is going to want to deal with that as well when it enacts these military commissions, and I think we need to do it soon. And so we’ll be dealing with that in the coming weeks.
We have to ask ourselves why would the Administration be worried about our people being tried for war crimes in bringing terrorists to trial. The underlying message here is that the evidence to be used was obtained through torture. This would be revealed in a normal court martial or criminal case, so we need special tribunals where we can keep this hidden.
The problem was that the Democrat on the show, Chuck Schumer, didn't jump all over him. His response was:
Look, let’s face it, Andrea, the world is a different place, and in this war on terrorism you don’t have set battlefields, you don’t have the enemy wearing uniforms. So to change things, that is a good idea. The problem is, this White House has felt it could just change things unilaterally against the Constitution, against the systems of checks and balances. Had they come to Congress a few years on this—a few years ago on this issue, my guess is they would have gotten most of what they wanted. But what’s happened here, because there is such a view that the president’s power is infinite and unchecked by anybody—first time ever a president has had those kinds of views—they keep running into brick walls—in this case, a Supreme Court that has generally been sympathetic to executive power. And so we’re going to have to not only look at this issue, we’re going to have to go back to the other issues as well, because this ruling undercuts some of the other things the president has done. But on giving the president what he needs, and giving our country what we need to fight the war on terror, there’s going to be agreement.
This doesn't sound like the response of someone who is absolutely sure that torture is wrong in all cases and forbidden. He's willing to give the Administration what they want without too much fuss. He just wants the Administration to ask nicely.
When Dershowitz refers to Waterboarding, he says:
ReplyDelete'We know that the United States has used "water boarding" - a technique that produces a near-drowning experience but no physical after-effects - on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a high-ranking al- Qa'ida detainee. Is that categorised as torture? I certainly think so, but the United States government apparently does not.'
I do not think that he is apologising for the practice himself: he is referencing the Administration's apology from the Yoo memorandum, and I take this to mean that Dershowitz says that there are interrogation techniques which don't have physical after effects which are torture. In other words, setting the bar for what's acceptable at whether or not there are physical after-effects is too low, in his opinion.
I also read the second and third paragraphs of his article with an eye to our recent history in Iraq: we saw an appeal by the United States to the Security Council, presenting the case for a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, a strike for which the timetable was already set. The case for the invasion was faked, as we now know only too well. If our present UN Ambassador or our Secretary of State comes to the Security Council again with a similar case against Iran, why should the Security Council listen to our protests and demands with more than a skeptical ear?
Shooter says:
ReplyDeleteClub Gitmo is a resort by comparison.
Words carry meaning.
Shooter engages in one of the favorite tactics of the right, namely desensitizing us to the reality of what goes on at Guantanamo. I refer specifically to the phrase "Club Gitmo".
It's very easy for Shooter to use this glib phrase as he sits in his comfortable armchair in New Jersey.
Shooter, I understand the waterboard is a fabulous ride at the resort; Interested in giving it a try?
Torture doesn't work, to get reliable information out of people. This is generally accepted in the intelligence community.
ReplyDeleteSadly, this is not true. Torture does work as both the French during the Algerian War and the Nazis during their occupation of Rome have proved.
The French won the Battle of Algiers in 1957 by bringing in a ruthless general (Jaques Massu) who efficiently tortured the acquaintances and associates of the rebel leader, Ali La Pointe, until the French were able to deny him any hiding places and eventually were able to kill him. (For details, read Alistair Horne's A Savage War for Peace or rent the Pontecorvo film "Battle of Algiers"). Torture is the most efficient way of tracking down and killing urban guerrilla cells, and torture worked quite well in Algiers. The French lost Algeria because they could not control the countryside.
The Nazis during their occupation of Rome in 1943-44 were also able to keep much partisan guerrilla activity in the city under control by using torture to root out the partisans and their networks. (See Rossellini's "Rome: Open City" for details.)
In urban environments, torture is probably the most practical method for destroying guerrilla networks (though it needs the assistance of a number of collaborators with the occupying army).
Torture is wrong because it is wrong, not because it doesn't work.
The points that torture is both morally wrong and generally ineffective as an information gathering technique are well made by other posts here. As is the point that institutionalizing torture as Dershowitz proposes is worse than the situation we presently have.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the hypothetical case where you are interrogating the terrorist who planted a nuclear device nearby and have only 45 minutes to "convince" the terrorist to disclose the location of the nuclear device in order to prevent the device's detonation? Shouldn't torture be legal in that situation, particularly if torture actually results in the disclosure of the location of the device and the prevention of serious loss of life?
In a word, NO. I think we already have built in safety valves to deal with that situation. One safety valve is called "prosecutorial discretion." Every good prosecutor asks the following questions in deciding whether to prosecute: 1) Was a crime commited? 2) Can I prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime was committed? and 3) Can I get a conviction from a jury (or other trier of fact)?
Where someone engages in illegal torture and extracts information from the torture victim that results in thousands (or more) of lives being saved, you are not likely to get a conviction, even if a crime was committed and you can prove that a crime was committed.
Of course, the person conducting the interrogation has to make difficult choices, but I do no think it is prudent to make those choices easy ones by legalizing torture (i.e., by using a "torture warrant" system). Otherwise, torture becomes commonplace. And, quite frankly, one never knows whether the terrorist would have refused to divulge the key information had there been no torture.
The "prosecutorial discretion" safety valve is used every day in the justice system of the United States. It's not perfect, but it beats the alternatives.
Other safety valves may be available, depending on the system in which the charges are brought. For example, you can convict and make the sentence extremely light. Or you can issue a pardon.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteLet's see what Mr. Dershowitz has to say:
Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of suicide terrorists with no fear of death and no home address have rendered useless the deterrent threat of massive retaliation...Because suicide terrorists cannot be deterred, they must be pre-empted and prevented from carrying out their threats against civilians before they occur.
This is a correct summary of the situation we face.
This change in tactics requires significant changes in the laws of war - laws that have long been premised on the deterrent model.
Consider, for example, the United Nations Charter, drafted in the aftermath of Germany's aggressive war between 1939 and 1945. Article 51 confirms "the inherent right of individual or collective [to] self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a member." The use of the word "occurs" would seem to require a nation, seeking to act in compliance with the charter, to wait until it is actually attacked before it responds in self-defence. But what should a democratic nation do if it becomes aware of an imminent threat of attack by a group of suicide terrorists in a distant part of the world? Surely it should not simply wait until an "armed attack occurs" and then engage in retaliatory self-defence. First, there is often no known entity to attack, since the suicide terrorists have died and the leaders who sent them have gone into hiding among civilians and may well be preparing renewed terrorist attacks. Second, there is no good reason for a democracy to have to absorb a first blow against its civilian population, especially if that blow can be catastrophic. Third, there is little possibility that potentially catastrophic first blows can be deterred by the threat of retaliation against a phantom enemy who welcomes martyrdom.
The UN Charter is a treaty which has no teeth and from which we can partially withdraw. Announce that we are interpreting Article 51 to only apply to nation states and not to non government aggressors like terror groups, which are more akin to pirates.
Consider, for example, the developing Iranian nuclear threat. The Iranian leadership has threatened to attack Israel and American targets. If Iran gets close to having a deliverable nuclear weapon, and if one of its target nations has the capacity to destroy its nuclear programme the way Israel destroyed the Iraqi reactor back in 1981 - with one air-strike and a single casualty - it should have the legal right to do so. This would be especially so if the Security Council refused to do anything to stop Iran because of self-serving Russian or Chinese vetoes. We are not yet at that decision point, and it is unlikely that the Iranian nuclear threat can be ended by surgical air strikes, but international law should authorise preventive self-defence if the threat is cataclysmic and relatively certain, even if not imminent, and if it can be abated with few civilian casualities.
This is a much more problematic situation.
In the case of a country like India, which has offered no threat of military force against the US or its allies, what right do we have to tell India that they cannot have nuclear weapons which we ourselves possess in abundance?
However, in the case of a regime like Iran, which is openly threatening to wipe its neighbor and our ally off the map with what has to be presumed to be nuclear weapons, could not the use of force to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons be justified as self defense? If so, perhaps we do need to either amend Article 51 to remove the attack prerequisite or simply announce that we are withdrawing from Article 51 to the extent that of that prerequisite.
By condemning all targeted killing of terrorists, human-rights groups actually increase the risks to civilians. The law should permit the targeting of individuals who are actively engaged in terrorist planning and actions, so long as it is highly likely that the target is an actual terrorist, that the number of likely civilian deaths is proportional to the likely civilian deaths that would have been caused by the targeted terrorists, and that there is no other alternative - such as arrest - that is feasible under the circumstances.
The complaints of self appointed "human rights" NGOs are not "law." What law prevents us from killing terrorists? Dershowitz has been at Harvard for so long that he is coflating the bleatings of his law school colleagues with actual law.
The law should also cast the blame for unintended civilian deaths caused by democracies on the terrorists who deliberately hide among civilians using them as "shields".
Laws do not "cast blame," they impose limits and liabilities. Dealing with enemy propaganda, whether put forth by the enemy, a self appointed NGO or some of our own citizens, is a political matter. Deal with it politically.
Next, consider the problem of what to do with captured "prisoners" who are believed to be terrorists. ..The problem is that the current laws regulating the detention of combatants are near useless when it comes to this motley array of detainees. These detainees simply do not fit into the old, anachronistic categories. Most are not classic prisoners of war. They were not part of a uniformed army under the command of a nation. But neither do they fit in to the classic definition of "unlawful combatants". They are not spies or saboteurs, as those terms have been understood in the context of conventional warfare. Nor are many of them simple "criminals", subject to ordinary trials under the domestic law of crimes. They comprise a new category - or set of categories - unto themselves.
These detainees fit neatly in the category of illegal combatants and can be dealt with under current law. The Geneva Conventions were instituted to discourage exactly the kind of barbaric behavior used by terrorists by limiting basic rights for detainees to combatants which followed the law of war.
Should the same rules that govern the interrogation of ordinary criminal suspects be applicable? Or should more latitude be afforded to interrogators in the preventive context? Should sleep deprivation be authorised? Loud music? Alternating heat and cold? Uncomfortable and/or painful seating? What about truth serum? False threats? We know that the United States has used "water boarding" - a technique that produces a near-drowning experience but no physical after-effects - on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a high-ranking al- Qa'ida detainee. Is that categorised as torture? I certainly think so, but the United States government apparently does not. We need rules even for such unpleasant practices.
We already have numerous layers or rules set forth for interrogations.
First, the definition of torture to which we agreed in the Torture Convention bars the intentional infliction of severe mental and physical pain. Under this definition, none of the interrogation methods mentioned by Dershowitz qualify as torture.
I see no reason why that rule should not stay in place as the floor below which interrogations may not go and strongly disagree that we need to engage in genuine torture to achieve our ends.
Some day (or maybe it has already happened), we may be presented with the imminent "ticking nuke" situation where genine torture may be the only option to find and disarm the nuke with the alternative being mass murder. In that case, the President needs to follow his or her conscience. The law often recognizes a necessity defense to the violation of the law. However, we should not gut the current law because of this one remote possibility of necessity.
Next, we have domestic statutes which regulate military interrogation. In reality, they only incorporate the Torture Convention definition because they do not provide any alternate workable definitions of their own. If you ask ten different people what the hell the term "humane" means in the context of interrogation of terrorists, you will get ten different answers.
Next, you have the newly revised military interrogation guidelines setting forth exact allowable interrogation techniques.
Finally, you will have executive rules set forth by DoD and CIA providing further detail for allowable techniques, along with requirements for review and higher permission to use some techniques.
The law concerning interrogation is more than adequate.
Bryan said...
ReplyDeleteAn example of how the debate on torture is not over. This weekend on "Meet the Press" Mith McConnell said:
I no longer watch Meet the Press. If something good happens there, I will hear about it. My neighbors have been much happier with me lately. The incidences of me shouting at the TV at the top of my lungs (Like Shooter) have subsided to almost nil. The main difference being that my TV is actually plugged in.
If you actually still have to watch that crap, and think you are being informed by doing so, I feel sorry for you. If you think opinions of those two reflect the opinions of a majority of Americans where I live, you are out of touch. I'm only a Democrat by default. Schumer is a fool. McConnell is a Republican from Kentucky, an idiot.
works fine in Firefox 1.5.0.4
ReplyDeleteConsidering Malkin didn't even print Denton's personal info,
ReplyDeleteNo, she sent rabid hordes screaming about sedition to a university chancellor's office number. That chancellor is a human being, and she was not an elected official, or an ombudsman for a news outlet; the latter are people who expect to be bombarded -- as part of their jobs -- by enraged fanatics.
But most of us, even if we serve in some public capacity, are not justly subjected to such vile campaigns as Malkin initiated. We have names, faces, families, lives, and most human beings also have problems, big and small. Decent people do not cause others to be inundated with cretins calling, which could certainly be a very distressing thing to undergo. Malkin did that Chancellor Denton. Nothing gossipy about it -- Malkin did it.
These kinds of tactics are repugnant, and need to end.
One right-wing blogger told me, by email, that he believed he had health problems as a result of the nasty things other bloggers were saying about him. I told him that meant he needed to stop blogging, because given the nature of the blogosphere he was volunteering for the cyber-abuse (which he also dishes out). Chancellor Denton, however, was no such volunteer.
I use a Mac and Firefox, and can read the text easily. The background is dark brown at first, but the text is on beige; it pops up after a second or so.
ReplyDeleteWorks fine with my firefox, which is version 1.5.0.4. I would recommend that you find out whether your emailers have updated their firefox recently, as the old version has more serious vulnerabilities than just unreadable blogs.
ReplyDeleteBTW, what I read I enjoy very much. Give them the truth and they will think it's hell, indeed.
Since I borked my blogger login and can't seem to get it to work anymore, this is Tim F from Balloon Juice.
To add, I use Win XP, SP2 on a PC. I also think that the problem may be slow loading on a dialup, since the site is always an unreadable brown for the few moments that it takes me to load.
ReplyDelete- Tim F
bart said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
Let's see what Mr. Dershowitz has to say:
Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of suicide terrorists with no fear of death and no home address have rendered useless the deterrent threat of massive retaliation...Because suicide terrorists cannot be deterred, they must be pre-empted and prevented from carrying out their threats against civilians before they occur.
This is a correct summary of the situation we face.
Nothing has changed except the possible scale of the effects. All people terrorists or not occupy a physical location on this planet. If not an address a GPS coordinate. All people with an actual physical address are highly mobile, especially if they are engaged in any kind of day to day business, moreso if plotting and preparing a act of terrorism. Massive retaliation has not been rendered useless, since these "hypothetical terrorists" are not like T.E. Lawrence's metaphorical device of a "fog or a gas" as much as the administration and others would like to cast them. They occupy a physical space in space-time and are constrained by gravity. The countries or nations that harbor them have always been subject to this massive retaliation. Suicide terrorists can be deterred far more easily than a deranged Soviet general could be from pressing a button in the Kremlin could, or a rogue in a Boomer, assuming the same safeguards were in place as we have here. It is far more difficult to plan and stage a massive terrorist attack than sit back and push a button. I just don't buy this argument at all. It's not Dershowitz' area of expertise. None of it. This renders the rest of it moot in my book. It's just an argument for measures that may give some a false sense of security but will not make us any more secure. probably less so. Franklin once said, "If you want to be safe, never feel secure."
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteTo add, I use Win XP, SP2 on a PC. I also think that the problem may be slow loading on a dialup, since the site is always an unreadable brown for the few moments that it takes me to load."
That's local netwok congestion and quirks in blogger.
7:33 PM
Firefox has no issues with your site. I use it and have never had one problem accessing and reading your site. So i would say it is something that the user is doing on their end.
ReplyDeleteThis whole debate is based on a Hollywood movie script. The Ticking Time Bomb. A hypothetical situation that has never yet occurred in the real world. Let's alter 200 years of tradition and law for a hypothetical. Let's cut and run from the constitution! What happened to stay the course?
ReplyDeleteRemind me, why does the right hate Hollywood, again? I forget.
For what it's worth I use firefox exclusively and have never had a problem on your site.
ReplyDeleteThis whole debate is based on a Hollywood movie script. The Ticking Time Bomb. A hypothetical situation that has never yet occurred in the real world. Let's alter 200 years of tradition and law for a hypothetical. Let's cut and run from the constitution! What happened to stay the course?
ReplyDeleteRemind me, why does the right hate Hollywood, again? I forget.
I'm using Opera and Firefox. Windows is creepy.
ReplyDeleteI decided to call a two minute amnesty on my moral principles to declare:
ReplyDeleteLet's torture Alan Derschowitz.
As for Jeff Goldstein of The Love Song of J. Edgar Goldstein, ha ha.
He doesn't disappoint.
And I have spread the lies already, spread them all—
The lies that help you with a formulated phrase,
And when I tell the left to take it on the chin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I re-spin
The spin from all the butt-holes with their Fox cliches?
Which drink should I consume?....
I seem to be a pair of ragged jaws
Suffering from some odd glandular disease....
And my scruple, my conscience, sleeps so peacefully!
Soothed by right-wingers,
Dead … extinct … but still it lingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Could I, after Googling Heidi Fleisses,
Have the strength to force my manhood to its crisis?
But though I have blogged and ranted, sneered and brayed,
Though I have seen my head [though slightly bald] swell up enough to shatter,
I won’t come off it— or my hate-filled chatter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And imagined feminists looked at my crotch and snickered,
And in short, I was afraid.....
And would I have been worth it, after all,
Without the quips, the martyrdom, the glee,
Without the one-act plays of Locke and Shannon Doherty?
Would I have been worth while,
If I’d cut off the flaming and the vile,
To have squeezed my ego down into a ball,
Endeavored to correct my misimpressions,
But no: I am Bob Heinlein, come from the dead,
Come back to fisk you all, I’ll rebut you all”—
And they, throwing my misquotes at my head,
Will say: “That is not what I said at all.
That is not it, at all.” ....
I grow old … I grow old …
I shall see my drunken, stale one-liners trolled.....
And even they now turn their backs to me....
I have stood up for the petit bourgeoisie
With ever more hysterical rebukes
Till sentient beings read them, and they puke.
-- Chris Clarke
Let's get right to the heart of the issue.
ReplyDeleteTo Bart, shooter242, and any other contrarian who cares to actually answer: do you support a policy of torture by US or US allied personnel?
No convoluted explanations or justifications or rationalizations please, Bart. And no half-baked efforts at historical equivalence please, shooter.
Just a straight "yes" or "no" to the question.
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteDid you see this?
Anti-semitism alive and well on the right. And not even the extreme right.
The first thing I was greeted with this morning. I saw red, as in blood. Your advice can apply to reading blogs, as well. It spoiled my morning.
Firefox on Linux. Looks OK.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteLet's get right to the heart of the issue.
Since the object is to stop the hypothetical ticking time bomb, if that ever occurs, not to go about torturing people to find out if they ponder such an act. If torture is illegal as it should be, and someone engages in it illegally to pre-empt the unthinkable, so be it. So you have traded the opportunity to prosecute a bad guy for the lives of 1000s, perhaps even a 100,000. But to just shred everything as a matter of course on a hypothetical situation is lunacy. Dershowitz has jumped the shark or he is being paid well off the neo-conservative dole.
I'll take anonymous as a semi-solid "no".
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDelete(2) Marty Lederman has a characteristically thorough and important post rebutting the most common myths being perpetrated about the Hamdan decision. There are reasonable grounds on which to disagree with multiple aspects of that decision, but as Marty demonstrates, Bush followers are simply distorting what the Court says in order to dispute it.
Mr. Lederman is engaged in some outright distortions himself:
But first, in brief, here's why the Common Article 3 holding of Hamdan is so important:
The provision of Common Article 3 at issue in Hamdan was a portion of subsection 1(d) that prohibits all signatory states from passing sentences or carrying out executions "without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court." (The Court held that the President's commissions were not "regularly constituted.")
But even more significantly, subsections 1(a) and (c) of Common Article 3 also prohibit the following, "at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to [persons who are out of combat as a result of detention]":
"violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture"; and "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment."...
The Court's holding in Hamdan that Common Article 3 applies as a matter of treaty obligation to the conflict against Al Qaeda thus should stop at least some of the Administration's interrogation policies in their tracks.
To use Mr. Lederman's own terms:
FACT: This is flat wrong.
The Court said nothing at all concerning whether subsections 1(a) and (c) of Common Article 3 applied to illegal combatant detainees.
Both the Stevens and Kennedy pluralities were at pains to narrow their decision to subsection 1(d) and Kennedy did not join section VI(D)(iv) of the Stevens opinion, effectively narrowing the application of subsection 1(d) even further.
However, when this opinion was issued, I predicted that the Court's narrow rewriting of Common Article 3 to apply subsection 1(d) to these detainees would be used in future briefs by lawyers like Mr. Lederman to shoehorn in the other provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
This is why it is critical that Congress expressly reverses the Court's holding that the UCMJ in any way enforces the Geneva Conventions.
MYTH NO. 2: The Court's holding only involved the meaning of CA3 as incorporated in 10 U.S.C. 821, and therefore does not constitute an interpretation of Common Article 3 for other purposes.
This appears to be, for instance, the gist of Stephen Bainbridge's unfounded criticism of Rosa Brooks. See also Point No. 6 in this post by Glenn Greenwald.
FACT: Wrong again.
...[T]he Court did hold as a matter of treaty interpretation that CA3 applies to persons detained in the armed conflict with Al Qaeda. Indeed, that's the specific, unequivocal holding of the Court in section VI-D-ii of the majority opinion...In other words, CA3 is "binding" in and of itself, and as incorporated in the War Crimes Act, and as incorporated in 821.
This is deliberately misleading and flat out wrong.
Section VI-D-i (not ii) of the Stevens opinion (joined by Kennedy) dealt with whether the Geneva conventions were judicially enforceable.
In order to evade the Eisentrager footnote denying them jurisdiction, the court assumed for the purposes of this opinion: "that “the obvious scheme” of the 1949 Conventions is identical in all relevant respects to that of the 1929 Convention,57 and even that that scheme would, absent some other provision of law, preclude Hamdan’s invocation of the Convention’s provisions as an independent source of law binding the Government’s actions and furnishing petitioner with any enforceable right For, regardless of the nature of the rights conferred on Hamdan, cf. United States v. Rauscher, 119 U. S. 407 (1886) , they are, as the Government does not dispute, part of the law of war. See Hamdi, 542 U. S., at 520–521 (plurality opinion). And compliance with the law of war is the condition upon which the authority set forth in Article 21 is granted.
In a nutshell, the Court has expressly limited itself to shoehorning in one narrow provision of the Geneva Conventions through Article 21 of the UCMJ. Not a single justice on the Court held that he was enforcing any part of the the Geneva Conventions as treaty law.
Defining illegal torture is easy. Any action which, taken by a subordinate, would be illegal or severely punished if applied to the top of the chain of command by that same subordinate, is illegal.
ReplyDeleteA small modification works in the "ticking time bomb" scenario. National Command Authority (NCA) has authority to explicitly order any method of interrogation, and may delegate that authority. Any method applied to the interrogatee shall be applied to every member of the command chain above the interrogator, including NCA.
Guess we can put Bart in the solid "yes" column.
ReplyDeleteKnew a straight answer was too much to hope for.
THE DUI LAWYER SAID: In a nutshell, the Court has expressly limited itself to shoehorning in one narrow provision of the Geneva Conventions through Article 21 of the UCMJ. Not a single justice on the Court held that he was enforcing any part of the the Geneva Conventions as treaty law.
ReplyDeleteATTENTION ALL - bart is a DUI lawyer in Colorado. It doesnt get any lower than that for a lawyer. He knows NOTHING. When it comes to understanding complex issues of federal and constitutional law, a lowlevel loser like Bart isn't qualified to lick dirt from Marty Lederman's shoes.
He doesnt even understand Professor Lederman's argument. Nobody is claiming that the Geneva Conventions were ENFORCED. The Professor is pointing out that the Supreme Court's ruling that Article 3 applies to äll detainees is binding law whether or not there is a cause of action for violations of the Convention.
But Bart runs around all but calling Professor Lederman a liar even though Bart has no idea what the post even says and simply lacks the capacity to figure it out.
Anyone who wastes any time reading Bart is as dumb as he is. I'm already cursing myself for breaking my rule and doing it here.
phd9: What next? A debate on the efficacy of beheadings in discouraging crime in cities?
ReplyDeleteFollowed by father/daughter purity dances?
prunes, mo, and Bibblesnæð: nice posts.
Welcome back, armegdnoutahere
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteDid you see this?
Anti-semitism alive and well on the right. And not even the extreme right.
I did not see that. I encourage everyone to follow that link, and the items it links to. Stop the ACLU is behaving monstrously, and should be removed from the blogrolls of any right-wing blogs with any decency at all.
Posting the addresses and telephone numbers of any plaintiffs -- Jewish or otherwise -- who are pressing a civil liberties case, so that they can he harangued and harassed by vicious hordes of angry zealots, is repugnant in the extreme.
It doesn't matter that the ACLU isn't even actually representing that family and that StACLU seems confused on that score. StACLU's behavior is abominable, yet it revels in its results, and vows to do it again.
ewo,
ReplyDeleteChris Clarke – funny.
But not as funny – a question: Libertarianism sees consolidation of power in government as the major threat to human development and well being. How does it address consolidation of power in other institutions?
Thanks for answering.
from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/dershowitz-opposes-tortur_b_7088.html
ReplyDelete9-9-2005
Dershowitz Opposes Torture (Huffington post)
In several of the responses to my blog about Chief Justice Rehnquist, people have claimed that I support torturing terrorist suspects. This is a canard being spread by my enemies, both on the hard right and the hard left. Nothing could be further from the truth than the claim that I support torture.
I have made this point clearly and repeatedly in my writing. Here is what I have written:
I am against torture as a normative matter, and I would like to see its use minimized.
Yet, he does suggest even then:
I pose the issue as follows. If torture is, in fact, being used and/or would, in fact, be used in an actual ticking bomb terrorist case, would it be normatively better or worse to have such torture regulated by some kind of warrant, with accountability, recordkeeping, standards and limitations?
This guy wants his cake and to eat it too.
I am against torture as a normative matter, and I would like to see its use minimized.
ReplyDeleteSomeone who says he wants to see torture "minimized" - rather than abolished -- is in favor of the use of torture, period. That's particularly true for someone who wants to create judicial warrants to authorize them.
Although he claims that every single terrorist around the world had full knowledge of the details of the Swift Program disclosed in his recent NYT article, apparently Lichtblau himself was completely ignorant of the program as of November 29, 2005, when he wrote:
ReplyDelete"The US government lacks an integrated strategy to train foreign countries and provide them with technical assistance to shore up their financial and law enforcement systems against terrorist financing...[The US] is now developing a program to access and track bank transfers...but experts in the field say the results have been spotty."
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/29/
national/nationalspecial3/29terror.html?
ex=1290920400&en=27845432a25e74fe&ei
=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
The Swift Program had in fact been in place for 4 years and the hints that some sort of a program existed offered by NYT defenders had also been "in the public domain" for years.
The latest twist on the spin that your average uneducated religious nut job al Qaeda terrorist was fully aware of the Swift Program of which your average NYT reader was completely clueless was that it was al Qaeda's job to keep track of these things.
However, as the NYT's ace national security reporter, wasn't it Lichtblau's job to keep track of these things?
I can hardly wait for the next spin...
Drag this clown in front of a criminal grand jury and make him reveal who is criminally leaking intelligence programs.
Can any proponents of the "ticking-bomb justifies torture" argument explain why it would not equally apply to the torture of the prisoner's child, if torturing the prisoner himself did not yield the sekrit codes?
ReplyDeleteOr would that be justifiable as well?
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteLet's get right to the heart of the issue.
To Bart, shooter242, and any other contrarian who cares to actually answer: do you support a policy of torture by US or US allied personnel?
I just posted that I did not. Our dispute is that you are calling "torture" anything beyond what a police officer can legally do with a civilian criminal defendant.
I am quoting the legal definition.
Joseph Knippenberg (professor of politics) writes:
ReplyDeleteIf the Bush administration (as it ought) chooses vigorously to fight this battle, it can accomplish two things at least. First, its judgments about how to try detainees will in the end be vindicated, thus enabling us to “wage war successfully.” And second, the two politically responsible branches will have repudiated the judgments of Justice Stevens and his colleagues, which would have the salutary effect of reminding the Court of its mere equality with, and the deference it owes to, them.
Both results are worth the expenditure of a great deal of political capital. Both would be a substantial contribution to President Bush’s legacy of not only defending the nation but also defending the appropriate balance between the three branches of government. In connection with the latter legacy, the only thing that could improve upon it would be the appointment of yet another judicially modest nominee to replace Justice Stevens, who has here shown his imperious impatience with the limits of his office.
PS This is the first article that appears under this heading at Google News. Is Google headed Right, or what? Just joking, kinda...
bryan:
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case then let's sit down and have a debate over what is now required and what works.
What's "required" is nothing, zip, nada. Why have a "discussion" if something is "required" to begin with; to assume that is to foreclose any actual discussion.
What "works" may be debatable. But what also needs discussion is what else "works" at least as effectively. And what "works" needs to take into consideration of the other ramifications of any policy; the overall picture.
And you missed the most important thing: What's the right thing to do? I refuse to drop a sense of morals and a perception of evil, and go on some calculated "best return for the investment [of pain]"/"profit and loss" type investigation, and lose my humanity along the way. That's a thing that's hard to put a price on ... in part because once you've lost it, no amount of money in the world will buy it back for you.
Cheers,
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteOf course it also lead to the ignoring of agent pleas to examine Moussaoui's laptop,...
It was an FBI middle management stiff that did this. And true to form, Dubya gave the guy a merit bonus (at a time when Federal salaries were frozen across-the-board).
Cheers,
Re: The complaints of self appointed "human rights" NGOs are not "law." What law prevents us from killing terrorists?
ReplyDeleteI recall that G.W. Bush "appointed himself" to complain about Saddam using torture. Perhaps at the time of that speach Bush was thinking that it is in US interest to condemn and prohibit the practice of torture.
I also recall that Miss Rice declared emphatically that "we do not torture". It seems that the current Administration has determined that the practice of torture would be so detrimental to our interests that it is worth to deny it -- rather than make a statement like "as a matter of policy we do not confirm or deny allegations about our methods of gathering intelligence".
I also recall that it was deemed by some that NEWS about humiliating treatment of the prisoners in Guantanamo cause deaths of our servicemen in Afghanistan. It is not a big leap in the reasoning to conclude that the acts of torture can also cause deaths of our servicemen. Afghans may be informed by word of mouth even when Newsweek or NYT ignore the topic.
Re: torture works for urban warfare
The cited examples work both ways because Germany and France lost the respective wars. I think that Tupamaru terrorist movement in Uruguay was destroyed with the help of torture. Nevertheless, torture usually does not work, especially in the democratic states.
The reason is that applying torture and planning torture has a very detrimental effect on the torturers and planners. There is an addictive rush of the fealing of power etc. Therefore torture tends to be done badly. Granted, some individuals may plan torture with clinical detachment and they may recruit appropriate personel with relatively rare psychological qualities. However, in a democratic society the practice is against the prevailing morality and sensitivity, so both planners and torturers would be subjected to negative selection.
wait a minute..... if torture is so good at gathering intel..... and bushco has been using torture under the radar for the last 3 or 4 years.... why haven't we caught bin laden?
ReplyDeleteoh, maybe torture doesn't work... but it makes dear leader feel so manly in a normal, heterosexual kind of way.
don de drain:
ReplyDeleteWhat about the hypothetical case where you are interrogating the terrorist who planted a nuclear device nearby and have only 45 minutes to "convince" the terrorist to disclose the location of the nuclear device in order to prevent the device's detonation? Shouldn't torture be legal in that situation, particularly if torture actually results in the disclosure of the location of the device and the prevention of serious loss of life?
In a word, NO. I think we already have built in safety valves to deal with that situation. One safety valve is called "prosecutorial discretion." Every good prosecutor asks the following questions in deciding whether to prosecute: 1) Was a crime commited? 2) Can I prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime was committed? and 3) Can I get a conviction from a jury (or other trier of fact)?
I've written about that a while ago. Someone tells me in a comment on a later post that this post of mine is being used by one law school as part of the materials for the law review competition (dunno any more specifics than that). Sadly, I think they're going for the "exigent circumstances" part of it, and leaving my meanderings about torture out ... but that was perhaps the most significant part of the post and the Fourth Amendment stuff was just to show how this tendency creeps in anywhere the hard-liners want "efficiency". But as other posters have pointed out above, that's kind of what the other folks that descended to torture wanted too -- at least, at first....
Cheers,
Aaron said...
ReplyDeleteBart: In a nutshell, the Court has expressly limited itself to shoehorning in one narrow provision of the Geneva Conventions through Article 21 of the UCMJ. Not a single justice on the Court held that he was enforcing any part of the the Geneva Conventions as treaty law.
ATTENTION ALL - bart is a DUI lawyer in Colorado. It doesnt get any lower than that for a lawyer. He knows NOTHING. When it comes to understanding complex issues of federal and constitutional law, a lowlevel loser like Bart isn't qualified to lick dirt from Marty Lederman's shoes.
:::shhhhh:::
Don't let Florida Supreme Court Justice Charles Wells, for whom I interned while a law student, or the Florida Board of Regents, for whom I wrote the prevailing brief in the 11th Circuit decision Kimel v. Florida Board of Regents as a clerk while waiting on my bar results, that I do not understand "complex issues of federal and constitutional law." I think I had them all fooled...
Now that I have given you some of my background, exactly what are your qualifications???
He doesnt even understand Professor Lederman's argument. Nobody is claiming that the Geneva Conventions were ENFORCED. The Professor is pointing out that the Supreme Court's ruling that Article 3 applies to äll detainees is binding law whether or not there is a cause of action for violations of the Convention.
Let this poor "DUI attorney" try to write this out in crayon for you...
Lederman claims that the Supreme Court held that the Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applied to detainees like Hamdan on its own authority as a treaty and not merely because it was adopted by Article 21 of the UCMJ.
He cited to the wrong section of the Stevens opinion and then quoted Kennedy out of context to back up this assertion.
I quoted the Supreme Court's exact language on the subject and bolded the key passage so you would not miss it.
Did you even read what the Supremes had to say?
But Bart runs around all but calling Professor Lederman a liar...
Lederman spent his entire post calling others liars and their legal interpretations "myths."
Professors who are furiously spinning what the Supremes said to suit their own agendas live in glass houses and should not be throwing "liar" stones at others.
BTW, I do not hold law professors in any greater esteem than other lawyers I practice against in court. Indeed, practicing attorneys often have an edge IMHO because they practice in the real world with real world issues.
Lawyers by profession make persuasive arguments in favor of their own positions by hi-lighting what helps them and downplaying what harms them. That is all Lederman was doing and I simply called him when he was making baseless claims.
I had a ball in law school challenging the assumptions put forward by my professors when I knew them to be wrong. (A blind grading system helps). You were probably one of those drones who simply wrote down what your teachers said and regurgitated it back on tests like a dictaphone.
If you are afraid to challenge the arguments of other attorneys, whether professors or not, you will be useless as a trial attorney and should stick to writing contracts and wills.
Shouldn't those who advocate torture, like waterboarding, well, shouldn't they try it out themselves to see what it's like? Of course they should. Rest assured, Mr. Derschowitz would have to sign a release in case something bad happened to him while he was being tested. Such as if he was mistakenly drowned, or got rope burns.
ReplyDeleteAs I've always been told-what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
The thought just occurs to me that the people that will be willing to descend to torture if it will get them some "good results" would be just the kind of people that would bargain with terrorists if it would get them some "good results". The same calculus -- and the same dropping of principles -- applies. It's a "bargain with the Devil" in each case ... just a slightly different -- and less obvious -- Devil in the former. But actually a far more formidable one.
ReplyDeleteCheers,
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteI went to the salon link, but is there actually a link between the website you mention and the group responsible for the action? I am only asking because, first, I really don't want to visit the website (I have my limits as far as visiting sites) and I would like to point it out on another blog that links to the Stop the ACLU site.
If you don't have the time or inclintion to answer, I understand. Thanks in advance.
Sorry to be late to the party, but...
ReplyDeleteGreenwald wrote: "And what does it say about the right-wing blogosphere that so many of their leading lights would rather cling to blatantly false accusations than admit in a forthright and clear way that they were wrong?"
The assumption here from GG is that credibility and honesty actually mean something to the RWB. But I think it really doesn't anymore. It's a battle of screams fought with unsubstantiated accusations and hysterical charges, and for the right wing, credibility and honesty are merely weapons to be used when necessary. This is consistent with the neocons' strategy of using lies and obfuscation to carry out their Grand Plans.
Don't make the mistake of playing the game by our rules. The opposition doesn't, and they don't give a tinker's damn about setting the story straight. It's about the victors writing the history, about yelling fire in a crowded theater, using the very same twisted logic that defended My Lai.
Glenn....
ReplyDeleteJust ignore Dorita. She just goes to blog after blog and posts the same crap over and over again just to be disruptive.
She is very insulting and mean to everyone.
Someone who says he wants to see torture "minimized" - rather than abolished -- is in favor of the use of torture, period. That's particularly true for someone who wants to create judicial warrants to authorize them.
ReplyDelete8:56 PM
Kinda like abortion, huh Glenn?
Regarding your Firefox problems: This has happened only intermitantly with my computer during the last few days, and I think it's more about the 'net or problems on Blogger's end (i.e. an inability to consistently load the image behind the text portion of the blog). I'm not having this problem today, and I've been using the latest version of Firefox.
ReplyDeleterobert 1014: Dershowitz may wish to lie to himself or to us as to his reasons for codifying torture into law, but be not fooled: anyone who espouses torture of anyone for any reason has put himself beyond the realm of humankind and reveals himself to be a beast.
ReplyDeletemo: This is a measure of how far we have strayed from our position of moral authority in the world in the past few years.
cynic:
The face of the new America: fearless and ruthless in the face of danger from beyond.
phd9: I find the fact that we're even having a discussion about torture, let alone that some people are coming out in favor, profoundly troubling. When we have become our enemy, then we no longer have the standing to attack the enemy.
************ ************
The Washington Post identified the rape victim yesterday as Abeer Qasim Hamza, and said she was 15 years old at the time.
A neighbour of the family told the newspaper that the girl's mother had expressed concern to him that her daughter was at risk from US soldiers at a nearby checkpoint. "I tried to reassure her, remove some of her fear," the neighbour, Omar Janabi, said. "I told her, the Americans would not do such a thing."
I use all three browsers on PC. I have the most trouble with Win IE here. Opera and Firfox seem fine. Perhaps some of the Firefox uses need to DL the latest update.
ReplyDeleteDipster cannont contribute to any thread here that doesn't lend itself to the tabloid level of discourse.
ReplyDeleteThe dipster was named as such by a commenter on The Left Coaster, having only submitted disruptive conspiratorial comments there. The namer is a blogger. She can claim him as hers if she wishes. I haven't seen the namer comment here by name.
My theory is that the dipster only came here through tracksbacks to a blog that got linked here throuh a recent request by Glenn for an apology which the dipster didn't agree with.
The dipster will go away soon. It can't make even a fallacious argument about anything above the level of blog gossip.
"These are the same people who rail on virtually a daily basis about the supposed lack of ethics and integrity among the "MSM," and yet they do not comply with even a fraction of the standards about which they so self-righteously sermonize"
ReplyDeleteTheir ethics are "the ends justify the means" - and the end is a Christianist-Nationalist dominance of political thought.
Dorita, I'm not sure what you are asking, but maybe this from StoptheACLU.com answers the question:
ReplyDeleteWho Is Stop The ACLU?
...Filed under About Us
Stop The ACLU.Com is the official blog of Stop The ACLU.Org. Our goal is to bring public awareness to the radical agenda of the American Civil Liberties Union. We are a grass roots effort to organize and get the general public actively involved in a campaign to stop the radical agenda of the ACLU, and the secular cleansing of America. You can get involved, and share your ideas with us by joining our Discussion Forum or our Blogburst Team. All you have to do is email me at Jay@stoptheaclu.com!
We also want you to join the coalition, which will be the active arm of our organization, organizing protests, letter campaigns, etc.
It is StoptheACLU.org -- the "coalition," the "active arm" of StopTheACLU.com -- that published the address and phone number of the Jewish family so that that family could be harassed for filing a civil rights suit.
Bartbarian hides behind legalisms: "I am quoting the legal definition."
ReplyDeleteOne cannot equivocate on the matter of abuse or torture of other human beings, and to even so much as slap a captive in the face is unacceptable. The only valid use of force by captors against captives is to restrain captives who become violent, or in self-defense (or defense of others) from assaults by violent captives. The only acceptable level of violence is the absolute minimum necessary to subdue a captive's violence, and not a jot more.
To subject a subjugated human being to abuse or humiliation is barbarism, in any circumstance.
Bart has learned to think like a lawyer and has forgotten how to think like a human being.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteLet's see what Mr. Dershowitz has to say:
[Dershowitz]: "Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of suicide terrorists with no fear of death and no home address have rendered useless the deterrent threat of massive retaliation...Because suicide terrorists cannot be deterred, they must be pre-empted and prevented from carrying out their threats against civilians before they occur."
Many murders can't be deterred because of the "heat of passion" involved, or just plain sociopathic nature and/or stoopidity of the perps. Hell, even the death penalty, ultimate sentence, never seemed to make much of a dent. Guess we'd better get on to preventive detention and proactive arrest of the future murderers....
This is a correct summary of the situation we face.
Oh. Well, now. Seeing as the famed and fabled "criminal prosecutor" from the great state of Colorado has chimed in with his decree, I guess there's not much point in discussing it further. <*snicker*>
[Dershowitz]: "This change in tactics requires significant changes in the laws of war - laws that have long been premised on the deterrent model."
[snip Dershowitz's "9/11 changed everything! Don't you see???" rant]
The UN Charter is a treaty which has no teeth and from which we can partially withdraw. Announce that we are interpreting Article 51 to only apply to nation states and not to non government aggressors like terror groups, which are more akin to pirates.
HWSNBN thinks that treaties "ha[ve] no teeth". Then again, the troll thinks that Dubya's the most law-respecting citizen around.
[Dershowitz]: "Consider, for example, the developing Iranian nuclear threat. The Iranian leadership has threatened to attack Israel and American targets...."
And Raygun threatened to attack the Soviet Union. Whoopdedoo.
[Dershowitz]: "... If Iran gets close to having a deliverable nuclear weapon, and if one of its target nations has the capacity to destroy its nuclear programme the way Israel destroyed the Iraqi reactor back in 1981 - with one air-strike and a single casualty - it should have the legal right to do so...."
So you're OK with breaking the law as long as you do it in a "good way", eh, Alan?
[Dershowitz]: "... This would be especially so if the Security Council refused to do anything to stop Iran because of self-serving Russian or Chinese vetoes. We are not yet at that decision point, and it is unlikely that the Iranian nuclear threat can be ended by surgical air strikes, but international law should authorise preventive self-defence if the threat is cataclysmic and relatively certain, even if not imminent, and if it can be abated with few civilian casualities."
Why?
I'd note that Germany's pretext for many of its pre-WWII actions were that it was just "defending" itself (or, e.g., looking out for the oppressed masses in the Sudetenland)
And I'd note that the U.S. pretext for invading Iraq was that the U.S. was defending itself from an "imminent threat". Wow, that worked out just grand....
This is a much more problematic situation.
In the case of a country like India, which has offered no threat of military force against the US or its allies, ...
Well, leaving off our good friend Pakistan, which India's had at least three wars with ... but they're Moooooslims, so I guess to HWSNBN, they don't count.
... what right do we have to tell India that they cannot have nuclear weapons which we ourselves possess in abundance?
That is a good point.
However, in the case of a regime like Iran, which is openly threatening to wipe its neighbor and our ally off the map with what has to be presumed to be nuclear weapons, could not the use of force to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons be justified as self defense? ....
Ummm, I guess that HWSNBN is alluding to the quite well nuclear armed Israel.... The irony escapes HWSNBN somehow, though.
If so, perhaps we do need to either amend Article 51 to remove the attack prerequisite or simply announce that we are withdrawing from Article 51 to the extent that of that prerequisite.
HWSNBN likes the Iraq war. 'Nuff said.
[Dershowitz]: "By condemning all targeted killing of terrorists, human-rights groups actually increase the risks to civilians. The law should permit the targeting of individuals who are actively engaged in terrorist planning and actions, so long as it is highly likely that the target is an actual terrorist, that the number of likely civilian deaths is proportional to the likely civilian deaths that would have been caused by the targeted terrorists, and that there is no other alternative - such as arrest - that is feasible under the circumstances."
And who's going to make this determination?!?!? Why, Dubya, of course!!! Hallelujah, with such competence at the helm, I can't imagine any wedding parties being blown to bits, and if and when such a thing should happen, I'm sure the miscreants who FOOBARed it will be sternly judged.
The complaints of self appointed "human rights" NGOs are not "law." What law prevents us from killing terrorists? Dershowitz has been at Harvard for so long that he is coflating the bleatings of his law school colleagues with actual law.
The Geneva Conventions, for one.
[Dershowitz]: "The law should also cast the blame for unintended civilian deaths caused by democracies on the terrorists who deliberately hide among civilians using them as 'shields'."
It does. It condemns this practise. And has nothing against perps of such actions being held to account for such.
Laws do not "cast blame," they impose limits and liabilities. Dealing with enemy propaganda, whether put forth by the enemy, a self appointed NGO or some of our own citizens, is a political matter. Deal with it politically.
HWSNBN accidentally gets one thing right ... partly. But in fact, the use of hostages, as well as spying and other "illegal in war" type things, can be and in fact are in many cases criminalised.
[Dershowitz]: "Next, consider the problem of what to do with captured "prisoners" who are believed to be terrorists. ..The problem is that the current laws regulating the detention of combatants are near useless when it comes to this motley array of detainees. These detainees simply do not fit into the old, anachronistic categories. Most are not classic prisoners of war. They were not part of a uniformed army under the command of a nation. But neither do they fit in to the classic definition of "unlawful combatants". They are not spies or saboteurs, as those terms have been understood in the context of conventional warfare. Nor are many of them simple "criminals", subject to ordinary trials under the domestic law of crimes. They comprise a new category - or set of categories - unto themselves."
Nope. No problems here: If they commit a crime, even a crime against the laws of war, prosecute them like any other criminal. If not, treat them like an enemy combatant ... or a civilianm if they haven't taken part in hostilities.
These detainees fit neatly in the category of illegal combatants and can be dealt with under current law....
There is no category of "illegal combatants" (just search the word "illegal" in both the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions).
... The Geneva Conventions were instituted to discourage exactly the kind of barbaric behavior used by terrorists by limiting basic rights for detainees to combatants which followed the law of war.
But not below that specified in the Fourth Geneva Convention. If they're a POW (as defined by the third), they cannot be tried for their legal actions in support of their army or government. That, and the "name, rank and serial number" (as well as equivalent accomodations and perqs of rank as their counterparts in the detaining army), is about all that "POWs" get extra.
Derschowitz: "Should the same rules that govern the interrogation of ordinary criminal suspects be applicable? Or should more latitude be afforded to interrogators in the preventive context? Should sleep deprivation be authorised? Loud music? Alternating heat and cold? Uncomfortable and/or painful seating? What about truth serum? False threats? We know that the United States has used "water boarding" - a technique that produces a near-drowning experience but no physical after-effects - on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a high-ranking al- Qa'ida detainee. Is that categorised as torture? I certainly think so, but the United States government apparently does not. We need rules even for such unpleasant practices."
I see no reason why different rules should apply. Even the most crazed axe murdered is afforded these rules in our justice system.
We already have numerous layers or rules set forth for interrogations.
First, the definition of torture to which we agreed in the Torture Convention bars the intentional infliction of severe mental and physical pain....
Sez the maladministration that didn't sign the Geneva Conventions or the Convention Against Torture. The same maladministration that thinks it gets to rewrite ex post facto even laws passed by Congress that it disagrees with...
... Under this definition, none of the interrogation methods mentioned by Dershowitz qualify as torture.
Why, hallelujah! Mirable dictu! Truly amazing that the maladministration's definition of torture doesn't encompass the tortures that it is performing! Will miracles never cease?....
I see no reason why that rule should not stay in place as the floor below which interrogations may not go and strongly disagree that we need to engage in genuine torture to achieve our ends.
And if it turns out not to be quite enough, I'm sure that HWSNBN will be sufficiently accommodating to allow it just this once ... and the next time ... and the next.
Some day (or maybe it has already happened), we may be presented with the imminent "ticking nuke" situation where genine torture may be the only option to find and disarm the nuke with the alternative being mass murder. In that case, the President needs to follow his or her conscience. The law often recognizes a necessity defense to the violation of the law. However, we should not gut the current law because of this one remote possibility of necessity.
Covered before by me a long time ago. Link upstairs.
Next, we have domestic statutes which regulate military interrogation. In reality, they only incorporate the Torture Convention definition because they do not provide any alternate workable definitions of their own. If you ask ten different people what the hell the term "humane" means in the context of interrogation of terrorists, you will get ten different answers.
So since we don't know for sure that the Earth is warming at an alarming rate and that it's anthropogenic, seeing as there's all kinds of disagreement from oil-company-sponsored "scientists", we'll just sit on our a$$es and do nothing .... ooops, sorry, wrong thread. ;-)
Next, you have the newly revised military interrogation guidelines setting forth exact allowable interrogation techniques.
Finally, you will have executive rules set forth by DoD and CIA providing further detail for allowable techniques, along with requirements for review and higher permission to use some techniques.
Kind of like the ones for Abu Ghraib. Hell they're already written! Let's go to town!
The law concerning interrogation is more than adequate.
My. I thought the ban on torture was adequate.
Cheers,
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteI'll take anonymous as a semi-solid "no".
I won't argue. I actually wrote a long response but decided against posting that. In short, I feel I am a solid "no" to changing anything. I do not favor "cutting and running" from our current laws and constitution. I feel we should "stay the course" with respect to them. I do think that in this narrowly drawn and rather unlikely hypothetical I might allow for some lattitude and discretion on the part of an actual interrogator in situ if he was a pro. You will still call me a semi-solid "no" perhaps. I am not a moral absolutist, more of a situational ethicist.
HWSNBN mises the boat:
ReplyDeleteThe Court said nothing at all concerning whether subsections 1(a) and (c) of Common Article 3 applied to illegal combatant detainees.
Yeah, well, the majority opinion never even used the phrase "illegal combatant". The only one who even came close was Thomas in dissent, who kept referring to them as "unlawful combatant[s]". But that was the dissent.
The term "illegal combatant" is a made-up term that HWSNBN likes to use to poison the well. But even the Geneva Conventions don't ever use this phrase.
The majority used the phrase "enemy combatant" a couple of times (quoting the maladministration, because that's what the maladministration used to refer to such as Hamdan).
HWSNBN is simply clueless again. Or dishonest. Or both.
Cheers,
I actually regret that RedState lacked the integrity to do a proper retraction.
ReplyDeleteThere really isn't an honest Right wing blog out there. We complain about the left wing circular firing squad sometimes, but I think that's probably because no one on the right is seriously debating anything anymore. We have only ourselves to fight against.
It would actually be a hopeful sign if there was a right wing blog that tried actual honesty, but the problem is they would have to reject the whole reprehensible, mendacious and malicious modern Republican party and all its ancilliary organs, organizations and arms-length plausibly deniable hit-squads.
Glenn, your ability to locate and pinpoint the specious claims and tactics of the right wing is as effective as your knowledge of constitutional abuses.
This incident, and the numerous past ones with Instapundit and others demonstrate in concrete, inarguable ways how deceitful these guys are. In this case, RedState's "retraction" is a façade for all the reasons you state. No ombud for any newspaper would endorse such a phoney "retraction" never mind all the eregregious offences that led up to that retraction.
Just today, Jesus' General posted a retraction and apology over giving away Malkin's address indirectly. Front page, on a day when many were linking to him for his letter to the Stop ACLU idiots. That's commendable.
Glenn routinely updates and corrects his posts, while on the front page.
In reading DailyKos for almost a year, they have never engaged in such despicable tactics - no one prominent has ever suggested violence against any right wing target, no matter how despised. The few times that it ever happens, the comment gets troll rated into oblivion very quickly.
Right wing blogs, you are intellectually bankrupt.
Many thanks Hypatia, you went where I didn't want to go. Many thanks. You understood quite correctly. Many thanks.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN is clueless:
ReplyDeleteBoth the Stevens and Kennedy pluralities were at pains to narrow their decision to subsection 1(d) and Kennedy did not join section VI(D)(iv) of the Stevens opinion, effectively narrowing the application of subsection 1(d) even further.
However, when this opinion was issued, I predicted that the Court's narrow rewriting of Common Article 3 to apply subsection 1(d) to these detainees would be used in future briefs by lawyers like Mr. Lederman to shoehorn in the other provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
HWSNBN seems to be totally clueless about the fact that subsections 1(a) and 1(c) were not at issue in this case. Why would the majority "apply" these irrelevant (to the case at bar) sections?
The troll HWSNBN seems to be totally clueless about how the judicial system works, and has trouble figurign out what the issues are in a case. How he ever finished law school, much less passed the bar, is a mystery ... unless ... maybe he had some 'help', eh? Whatever, I recommend that those seeking a competent lawyer avoid HWSNBN like the plague ... even for as simple a case as pleading down a DUI.
Cheers,
Shooter...Which version? The real thing by Saddam Hussein? No. Fake torture by Lynndie England? Yes. Unfortunately, that's illegal now as well.
ReplyDeleteShooter, Shooter, Shitter...
You know damn well that fake torture is the kind you pay good money for across the Hudson River. It's an elective choice. Safe sane and consensual, right? The kind the GOP goes in for whenever the RNC is holding a convention. Or maybe really rough trade is more to your taste.
It looks fine in my Firefox Browser:
ReplyDelete[Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060508 Firefox/1.5.0.4]
ReplyDeleteRight wing blogs, you are intellectually bankrupt.
That's too broad. The Commissar at The Politboro Diktat apologized and retracted for calling Glenn a liar wrt the fake TNR/Zengerle email. Roger L. Simon also gave an unqualified, classy apology for his snarky and inaccurate post about the state of sales of Crashing the Gate v. Glenn Reynolds' book. And while I cannot recall specifics, Mark Coffey at Decision '08 is also good about posting corrections.
I'm sure there are other examples; I believe Glenn has acknowledged a straightforward retraction also from Ed Morrissey at Captain's Quarters.
the aptly monikered "dipshit" said:
ReplyDeleteJust ignore Dorita. She just goes to blog after blog and posts the same crap over and over again just to be disruptive.
The "dipshit" seems to have misspelled "dipshit" (his own handle!) there. I won't comment on the gender confusion; that's his own row to hoe.
Cheers,
Robert1014 said...
ReplyDeleteBartbarian hides behind legalisms: "I am quoting the legal definition."
One cannot equivocate on the matter of abuse or torture of other human beings, and to even so much as slap a captive in the face is unacceptable. The only valid use of force by captors against captives is to restrain captives who become violent, or in self-defense (or defense of others) from assaults by violent captives. The only acceptable level of violence is the absolute minimum necessary to subdue a captive's violence, and not a jot more.
To subject a subjugated human being to abuse or humiliation is barbarism, in any circumstance.
What a load of crap.
Let me clue you in on a few things...
War is not a God damn game or intellectual exercise.
War is organized murder and destruction, nothing less.
The objective is to kill people and break things and keep the enemy from doing the same to you and yours.
War is a barbarity you fool.
In this wholesale slaughter, I could give less than a damn if the enemy is made uncomfortable, denied sleep, made to listen to heavy metal music and even panicked on a waterboard if that is what it takes to gain intel which will allow me to save my troop adn my civilians and kill more of the enemy.
Torture is what al Qaeda did to our Marines when they reportedly dragged them to death and dismembered them or when the NVA dislocated John McCain's shoulders and kicked his shattered leg.
What we do to the enemy to gain information is a kiss on the cheek in comparison and is not close to torture.
I am so tired of hearing people who have never heard a shot fired in anger, nevertheless at them personally, pontificate about life and death matters about which they have no earthy concept.
I won't torture the enemy, but everything else is fair in war.
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteThis is just off the cuff (and I am indebted to you) but what of the seeming liberal transformation to authoritarian of yet another? Is it in the neighborhood of Daivd Horowitz, or not?
Any insight?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDefining illegal torture is easy. Any action which, taken by a subordinate, would be illegal or severely punished if applied to the top of the chain of command by that same subordinate, is illegal.
A small modification works in the "ticking time bomb" scenario. National Command Authority (NCA) has authority to explicitly order any method of interrogation, and may delegate that authority. Any method applied to the interrogatee shall be applied to every member of the command chain above the interrogator, including NCA.
Interesting, if that's the case.
Dorita,
ReplyDeleteWRT the Stop The ACLU story... I found it initially at Jesus' General's site and a cursory reading thru comments at any of the sites like his or the other sites often leads to more information.
Bart... War is a barbarity you fool.
ReplyDeleteYou are straying from the script and not helping to "catapult the propaganda". How refreshing your momentary lapse into honesty and frankness is.
Nevermind Hypatia. It seems my work is done wrt dipster.
ReplyDeleteIf he comes back, perhaps we can answer each other again. Thx again for the info, seriously.
I feel like arne:)
Cheers!
Damn I'm getting here late.
ReplyDeleteI tried arguing the case with them up until yesterday, but it didn't get me anywhere accept for accused of editing the Secret Service confirmation notice for my own gain.
Glad to see people come to their pseudo-senses and offer non-retraction retractions in an attempt to still save face.
The creature responsible for driving the Jewish family from that town.
ReplyDeleteI am so sick of hearing this crap about tourture and how terrorism is a new threat and we need to defend ourselvs. We are better than them, PERIOD. Thats it. No oither explination necessary. They win if we torture.
ReplyDeleteThe Lament of the Chickenhawk
ReplyDeleteSad.
P.S. Any folks having browser troubles should try clearing cache and history first. It may solve the problem in any browser.
HWSNBN shows his moral character:
ReplyDeleteWar is organized murder and destruction, nothing less.
No. More famously, war is "a continuation of politics by other means". Wars, to be even the least bit morally acceptable, should have a purpose. Murder and destruction are not such.
The objective is to kill people and break things and keep the enemy from doing the same to you and yours.
No. See above. If such were so, it would be legal to kill someone placed hors de combat. It is not. Once a person is no longer a threat, you may not kill them.
War is a barbarity you fool.
True. But HWSNBN just llllooovvvesss him that Iraq war -- which is one of the most brutal and pointless we have ever engaged in -- but safely from his Cheetos stash and his keyboard safe in the confines of Colorado Springs....
Cheers,
Ol' tu quoque HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteTorture is what al Qaeda did to our Marines when they reportedly dragged them to death and dismembered them or when the NVA dislocated John McCain's shoulders and kicked his shattered leg.
HWSNBN sets the bar pretty low ... "We're better than the NVA (at times) and al Qaeda! Hoorah for us!"
I'd note it's not the first time he's trotted out this particular instance of this fallacy ... and been called on it. But HWSNBN is nothign if not shameless.
Cheers,
Dershowitz:
ReplyDeleteThe period between the end of the Second World War and now has seen more profound changes in the nature of warfare than occurred from the time of Henry IV to the beginning of the First World War.
I call bullshit.
Henry IV died in 1413. The Civil War fits in-between that and WWI.
What a load of crap, he needs to read a book.
And to think I used to have respect for that guy.
Bartbarian loses his cool: "War is a barbarity, you fool."
ReplyDeleteYes, it is...which is why civilized nations do not initiate wars of aggression...as we did against Iraq.
Which is why those who wish not to become barbarians hold themselves to the hightest possible standard of behavior--even in war--and why they reject any "war is hell" rationale for treating the enemy as subhuman. Yes, in a firefight, one fights or dies, one kills in order not to be killed, or to save others from being killed. However, off the battlefield, when one has captives in restraints, helpless, one acts as civilized humans do, and understands that one's own countrymen are captives elsewhere, and knows that one could become a captive oneself, and one treats the captives as one wishes he or his fellows might be treated.
To kill in a firefight is self-defense...to slap a helpless captive is cowardice and sadism.
Perhaps you've read that a significant percentage of our fighting forces in WW II fired their weapons in the air...that, faced even with a formidable foe trying to kill them, many American soldiers could not bring themselves to kill other human beings. How far we have fallen, where based merely on the whisper that a man may be a terrorist, that we trip over each other finding reasons to excuse any number of abuses, which may or may not fit the "legal definition" of torture.
Your tough guy talk is baloney; you mention McCain's abuse at the hands of the Vietcong, yet McCain, for all his faults and hypocrisies, has never found weasel ways to shrug off or approve of roughing up or "making uncomfortable" our enemy captives, and the near-unanimous approval of his anti-torture bill, however dishonorably "welcomed" by Li'l Butch, shows that most Americans also reject the abuse of captives as an instrument of war.
With regard to the quote: "Torture is what al Qaeda did to our Marines when they reportedly dragged them to death and dismembered them or when the NVA dislocated John McCain's shoulders and kicked his shattered leg."
ReplyDeleteI assume that this is referring to the events in Fallujah. If so, it should be noted that those dragged through the streets were military contractors, not "our Marines", and that I at least have not seen elsewhere that those responsible were members of al Qaeda.
Unless Bart is referring to some other incident, he could at least get the basic facts straight.
Incidentally, what does "HWSNBN" stand for?
Arne,
ReplyDeleteI think Clausewitz said "war is diplomacy carried on by other means". I have said on occasion that politics can be like civil war carried on by less violent means. I have been meaning to read Horowitz' The Art of Political Warfare, but I think it's analogous, or at least that's how the current regime treats it.
Anonymous @ 1:06,
I assume that this is referring to the events in Fallujah. If so, it should be noted that those dragged through the streets were military contractors, not "our Marines", and that I at least have not seen elsewhere that those responsible were members of al Qaeda.
Unless Bart is referring to some other incident, he could at least get the basic facts straight.
Incidentally, what does "HWSNBN" stand for?
He Who's Name Shall Not Be Mentioned and I will defer to Arne to explain that because owe that appellation to him.
Arne,
Be my guest.
WRT to the two marines, Bart refers to the latest incident in which something awful did happen to two marines who were taken.
This is the "two wrongs make a right" argument or "he did it first" argument. It is no credible argument or justification for us to engage in torture, but Bart is fast running out of them. At this rate he will soon be reduced to "goo-goo" and "ga-ga" and cholicky spitting up.
My apologies to Bart for missing his reference.
ReplyDeleteGetting to the actual meat of the issue, I'd have to agree with anon @ 1.31, but I know that arguing the point would be a waste of time.
Incidentally, what does "HWSNBN" stand for?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Arne can elaborate or correct me, but I think it refers to the advice of ignoring trolls. Ignore them, don't mention them by name and engage them in dialogue or debate and they will go away. I think...
It's easier said than done, although most of us have no trouble doing it on the street with the homeless and hungry, myself included. They just become invisible. If only Bart was asking for money instead of helping this administration steal it.
I agree with the sense of this statement, but I'm uneasy about the exact wording:
ReplyDeleteBut having the law expressly allow torture, along with attacks which knowingly result in the death of innocent civilians, is to legitimize and endorse that conduct as part of our value system.
For example, if the government was to allow drug use, that would not be the same thing as endorsing drug use, though that claim is often made by the less intellectually scrupulous opponents of drug legalization. Making and enforcing laws merely to express disapproval or otherwise "send a message" (and only "send a message") is an abuse of the legal system, and one that has a distinctly totalitarian flavor.
That it is our government that would be carrying out the torture and the intentional killing of innocents is what would (or I should say does) "endorse that conduct as part of our value system." I agree that giving these actions legal sanction would only make that endorsement louder and clearer, and is a terrible idea that must be fought. Maybe what I'm stumbling over is a distinction between laws that apply to the government and laws that apply to the general public. In any case, just a quibble to let you know I'm out here reading your work with enjoyment.
He Who Shall Not Be Named
ReplyDeleteHis arguments are disingenuous as he states opinion as fact. We keep hoping he will go away.
Incidentally, what does "HWSNBN" stand for?
ReplyDeleteI shall try the same as arne with my unanswered question to “eyes wide open”.
HWSNBN,
Libertarianism sees consolidation of power in government as the major threat to human development and well being. How does it address consolidation of power in other institutions?
Thank you my friend.
Michael- this argument against the argument:
ReplyDelete"Torture is going to happen anyway so let's legalize it."
I guess we could go down that road with anything... marijuana, rape, murder. It's going to happen anyway, let's not be hypocrites about it.
Including marijuana with rape and murder is so far beyond the realm of reality and so into the realm of reefer madness that someone needs to call you on this.
try substituting "alcohol" for marijuana, if you don't get it. not quite the same as murder or rape...tho drinkers tend to be more violent, afaik, than crazed vegetarians hopped up on weed.
--and now on to something that actually might relate to legalized torture--
shooter242 said (after using other equally specious arguments)
Yeah, having a dog bark at someone is certainly worse than mass murder of one's own people. Whatever was I thinking?
-this sort of right wing talking point makes me want to puke. surely you're not an idiot who actually thinks this is what torture is all about.
but, it doesn't really matter if an Iraqi boy gets raped in prison, for instance, because he should be lucky we're not Saddam who premitted this act. oh, but the one reported incident was only done with our complicity, not our dicks, so that's okay.
hey, and since slavery was okay back in the 1700s, why make a big deal out of it now?
speaking of-
What is most striking about current legal redefinitions of punishment is how much they have in common with statute and case law that reconstructed the identity of the slave. In terms of social conditioning, this re-animation of servile or subhuman status as the criminal “type” guarantees the stigma that justifies dehumanization.Cruel and Unusual Punishment as a tool to create a permanant underclass of people who do not deserve full protection of the law... like slaves, or someone who *might* be a terrorist...like, say, a Reuter's stringer providing information to America.
arne: The thought just occurs to me that the people that will be willing to descend to torture if it will get them some "good results" would be just the kind of people that would bargain with terrorists if it would get them some "good results". The same calculus -- and the same dropping of principles -- applies. It's a "bargain with the Devil" in each case ... just a slightly different -- and less obvious -- Devil in the former. But actually a far more formidable one.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully, I don't agree with this.
l) Torture is moral depravity. Many posts on this thread eloquently address that issue as has Glenn often in his posts.
2) Why is bargaining with a terrorist a dropping of principles? What principle--the right to protect something one values?
A terrorist has initiated force against someone. It's an immoral act of agression which morally permits any form of self-defense that doesn't involve a direct immoral act of agression against some innocent third party.
I seriously doubt anyone on this blog who had the person they most love (and value) kidnapped by a terrorist would fail to negotiate with that terrorist for the release of that person if there were no other way to get the person back. Short of morally impermissable actions which would involve initiating force against an innocent, or involving oneself in something equally heinous like torture, why is anything else to be taken off the table?
Drugs, money, arms? I say give them if you can save the life of a loved one. Why not? For the good of "mankind"? To set an example of self-sacrifice? I see no reason to be "noble" at the point of a gun in service to a "principle" at the expense of self.
Personally, I was even glad arms were given to release American hostages in Iran (if that is what happened.) Those were American lives that were saved. Someone else would have sold the Iranians arms anyway. We live in a corrupt world where a black market for anything is alive and flourishing.
I cannot see that paying "ransom" for a loved one is the moral equivalent of engaging in or sanctioning torture. A person has a right to defend himself by any means possible which are not immoral and to protect a "higher" value like the life of a loved one.
Egyptian magician: In response to your question, I am not a libertarian and cannot speak for them. From what I have read, a libertarian cannot speak for another libertarian either, as no two agree on what liberatarianism is :)
But my own answer to your question about How does it address consolidation of power in other institutions?-- I wasn't aware of any group other than government which has the legal right to use force against a person.
Any group which attains the power to exercise legal force against someone does so only because it is authorized by a government to do so.
As long as you are not at the mercy of a group who has the right to initiate force against you, you are okay in that you are only subject to the vagaries of fate, against which nobody can protect you.
But once you are a slave to an authoritarian master who can deprive you of your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness at his whim, your freedom is always in peril.
"All government, of course, is against liberty."
- H.L. Mencken
We do need a government, but I think one should never forget it is a necessary evil and therefore the smaller it is, the better.
I worry about government concentration of power, not organizations which I can choose, at will, to boycott.
On this issue of torture:
ReplyDeleteSo, while Bart and shooter242 are musier "no, but I'll do what's legal"...all with some less-than-convincing hot air over the inarguable fact war is violent barbarity (which doesn't excuse conduct before, during, or after hostilities, btw) and the assertion that Private England's offenses were 'fake torture'.
Guess a simple "yes" or "no" really was too much to hope for. Enjoy your moral cesspool; pardon the rest of us if we don't join in.
bart said: I won't torture the enemy, but everything else is fair in war.
ReplyDeleteBy torture, he means (as he indicated upthread) exactly up to and including whatever is allowed by law. This already includes indefinite sleep/food deprivation (not the same thing as starving) and waterboarding.
So if the administration decided tomorrow that Congress could make no law restricting the Executive's unitary privilege to say, put someone's head in a vise a la Casino, bart and shooter would presumably have no problem with that.
Because it would be legal, as far as the administration is concerned, and they have made it plain that that is good enough for them.
the egyptian magician said... "/*
ReplyDelete"/*
I shall try the same as arne with my unanswered question to “eyes wide open”.
HWSNBN,
Libertarianism sees consolidation of power in government as the major threat to human development and well being. How does it address consolidation of power in other institutions?
Thank you my friend.
I saw this earlier and as I am not a glibertarian, or anarcho-capitalist, I thought I would let one of them answer. To the best of my knowledge, there is no limit to the amount of power that may be concentrated in any privately owned entity or non-governmental institution. The more the merrier and whoever has the biggest armed forces and most nuclear weapons, rules. Sound like anyone you know? It sounds like modern day America with it's thoroughly outsourced global corporate parasite latched onto it. (Fascism, it's the new corportae socialism).
Now you can see why EWO favors long posts. His latest effort is so full of holes it might as well be a seive. Round and round he goes and ends up two steps back and biting his own tail.
ReplyDeleteI worry about government concentration of power, not organizations which I can choose, at will, to boycott.
Yes. You could boycott AT&T in the good old days, with a couple of tin cans and some string. And we are heading right back to those good old days, having implemented much your "vaunted" libertarian "idiology".
Any group which attains the power to exercise legal force against someone does so only because it is authorized by a government to do so.
Precisely. And with enough money you can afford the best government for "your group" that money can buy.
Note that he begins his rant invoking morality and depravity wrt to torture yet he neglects to mention that in his ill-conceived "libertopian paradise" any contract entered into consensually between two parties is enforceable even if it involves slavery and torture and the sale of babies. Then torture and slavery are not "moral depravity"? How confusing.
Now you can see why EWO favors long posts. His latest effort is so full of holes it might as well be a seive. Round and round he goes and ends up two steps back and biting his own tail.
ReplyDeleteI worry about government concentration of power, not organizations which I can choose, at will, to boycott.
Yes. You could boycott AT&T in the good old days, with a couple of tin cans and some string. And we are heading right back to those good old days, having implemented much your "vaunted" libertarian "idiology".
Any group which attains the power to exercise legal force against someone does so only because it is authorized by a government to do so.
Precisely. And with enough money you can afford the best government for "your group" that money can buy.
Note that he begins his rant invoking morality and depravity wrt to torture yet he neglects to mention that in his ill-conceived "libertopian paradise" any contract entered into consensually between two parties is enforceable even if it involves slavery and torture and the sale of babies. Then torture and slavery are not "moral depravity"? How confusing.
Thus it ever was with these clowns.
Shooter goes to the mis-attributed Orwell quote fall back position. Otherwise known as the Col. Nathan Jessup defense.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your view, but always remember, that it is men you condemn protecting you, that will allow you your self congratulation.
Yeah, from where I sit, and most everyone else now, Saddam was doing a fine job of that in Iraq himself, as a matter of self-preservation. Knock that "rough man" off the wall at your own peril, lest ye find you must take up his post. The only torturing done in that movie was of another marine. WTF is it with these fucking wingers? They hate Hollywood, but all they are is bad movie scripts and crappy dialogue.
From shooter242 at 9:20am:
ReplyDelete"Enjoy your view, but always remember, that it is men you condemn protecting you, that will allow you your self congratulation."
Funny, I thought that was protected by the Bill of Rights. The one's 'protecting' it are, by my lights, to be more feared than thanked at this point.
Incidentially, its also a truism that extremist movements (like monsters) inevitably turn on their creators (and their assistants). Just read what happened to the Sturmabteilung on June 30 - July 1, 1934.
Something to keep in mind.
Enjoy your view, but always remember, that it is men you condemn protecting you, that will allow you your self congratulation.
ReplyDeleteI am no safer if my people become torturers.
The rush you feel from the thought of sticking hot needles in some guy's balls is not the feeling of safety.
I think we might be a little unfair to shooter242 here. I doubt, heavily doubt the commentator has either tortured or even deliberately inflicted pain on another.
ReplyDeleteBy the tone, tenor and content of his posts I get the sense they honestly believe that these measures are somehow a necessary component of the Administration's counter-terrorism policy, more from an inherent faith in the Administration's good intentions than personal experience in the efficacy of those measures.
I could of course be wrong about that and the commentator is simply reciting talking points for a paycheck. But I prefer to think the best of people.
You can only think the best of someone for so long before you have to say:
ReplyDeleteThis far, and no further.
Torture crosses the line between sanity and irrational, violent atavism (look it up, shooter.)
No one who favors torture can be a decent person.
shooter,
ReplyDeleteWho is protecting the men and women who protect us?
Who is providing them with the training and evaluation and treatment that will keep them from ending up alone and paranoid and living on city streets in 15-20 years.
Buy a clue -- it is certainly not our DoD or our Department of Vetran's Affairs.
There is a special circle of hell for those who send young men and women into war unprepared for its realities and the aftermath.
And those who are so desperate for more cannon fodder that they send young men and women to war who are mentally and tempermentally unsuited to military life.
Not to mention those who send them into a meaningless and unnecessary war that was sold to people by misrepresenting intelligence.
HWSNBN
ReplyDeleteI was guessing that it stood for He Who Says Nothing But Nonsense.
Yankeedragon,
ReplyDeleteIt's very hard for me to assume the best of someone who is willing to countenance or apologize for torture.
It's a type of utilitarian thinking I'm not prepared to endorse. I'm no hard-line idealist that thinks no evil, however small is ever acceptable in the pursuit of larger goods (I would slap a child to save 1 million people to give an extreme albeit ludicrous example) - but it's clear to me that 1 terrorist strike on 9-11 should not be utilitarian grounds to start pulling people's fingernails off.
I'm simply not that afraid of terrorists to give up my ideals, one being that torture is wrong and no one should do it, ever.
In whatever absurd scenario one can cook up that somehow makes torture the necessary and only way to save many lives, I like the idea that one must be so sure torture is the only option, that one must risk prosecution, that no pre-existing legal sanction will exist.
In fact, I think prosecution under such circumstances should be automatic, with the defendant required to make a positive defence (once the facts surrounding the torture incident were demonstrated). Convince a jury of your peers what you did was necessary. No "prosecutorial discretion" - let a trial vindicate you so there is no doubt.
I am prepared to die with that ideal, and prefer that to life as someone who endorsed or committed torture.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI think Clausewitz said "war is diplomacy carried on by other means". I have said on occasion that politics can be like civil war carried on by less violent means.
Yes, that's attributed to Clausewitz. Translations vary (it was in German, IIRC), but either translation is pretty close (assuming you take "politics" as being or at least subsuming "foreign affairs"; perhaps "diplomacy" is clearer in that respect).
Further, it was part of Clausewitz stating my point: That war is not and cannot be an end to itself, but must be in furtherance of some other end (one may argue about whether the "ends" justify the "means" in general or in some specific instance, but one thing is certain, war without any other purpose is simply immoral ... and pointless).
Cheers,
anonymouses:
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, what does "HWSNBN" stand for?
I'm sure Arne can elaborate or correct me, but I think it refers to the advice of ignoring trolls. Ignore them, don't mention them by name and engage them in dialogue or debate and they will go away. I think...
"He Who Shall Not Be Named" originated on UseNet (first reference I can find is 1994 or so, on the BDSM groups[!]). Used for people you don't want to recognise as contributing anything worth attaching a name to (although, perversely, LGF claims [incorrectly] to have coined the term; just more plagiarism from the RW foamer battalions ... wonder if they know where it came from first, eh?).
Applied to trolls and others that think their spew is worth more attention than just a dutiful mop and a bucket.
I try not to address HWSNBN personally, in part because there's no point in it; he ignores whatever is inconvenient to his "argument du jour" and repeats his latest mantra as if no one has refuted it. There's no dialogue involved, so I try to limit myself to just a running commentary on his latest idiocy for the benefit of any that might be tempted to think he talks sense or presents actual facts.
I have no illusion that HWSNBN will go away (ignoring him has as much apparent effect as responding, and while just letting the miasmatic efflux go unaddressed may be a prudent course of action, one may as well skewer his 'logic' and debunk his facts as appropriate). He's parked himself here, and unless Glenn decides that repetitive posters like HWSNBN ought to be limited to stating their case once and then STFU (at least for the day), he's our resident troll. Treat him as such. Ridicule him. Shame him. But try to "engage" him at your own peril; the more pointed and the more cutting your responses, the more he'll ignore them. Understandable, given human nature, but hardly honest.
Cheers,
eyes wide open:
ReplyDeleteI cannot see that paying "ransom" for a loved one is the moral equivalent of engaging in or sanctioning torture....
Didn't say they were "moral[ly] equivalent". I said the 'logic' is the same. Hardly the same in the extent of the moral compromise (or WRT other factors involved), but nonetheless the same kind of thinking.
... A person has a right to defend himself by any means possible which are not immoral and to protect a "higher" value like the life of a loved one.
YMMV.
There is the argument that dealing with hostage-takers and terrorists may encourage more such behaviour and result in greater harm in the long run, but I'm not convinced this argument is compelling. That being said, I'm of the opinion that any offer to a hostage-taker or terrorist outside of basic humanitarian needs (food, medicine, things to relieve the suffering of hostages) or that is not something due anyone as of right (such as a fair trial, no excessive or deadly force, the opportunity to surrender, etc.) does in fact corrupt ourselves in some small way.
As for what one thinks when our "loved ones" are involved (or if some big muckety-muck has been taken), sure, one might think they're worth saving at any cost, but our own feelings shouldn't dictate policy.
OTOH (and you may criticise me for hypocrisy), I don't have a real problem with handing over a wallet if one is being held up; that's your own decision to make, and money is fungible and recoverable, and the crime ultimately redressable and punishable.
Cheers,
prunes:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: I won't torture the enemy, but everything else is fair in war.
By torture, he means (as he indicated upthread) exactly up to and including whatever is allowed by law.
No. HWSNBN means everything up to what Dubya (or Bybee or Yoo) says is "legal". HWSNBN thinks that Dubya's perfectly entitled to ignore Congress's almost unanimous passage of laws prohibiting what Dubya wants to do as 'circumstances may dictate'....
Hope that's clear.
Cheers,
aj:
ReplyDeleteI was guessing that it stood for He Who Says Nothing But Nonsense.
I like that. :-)
Cheers,
arne: Yes, thanks, that was what I was trying to say.
ReplyDeleteIn his mind, if we do it, it's not really torture.
Thank you for answering, my friends.
ReplyDelete“you wouldn't happen to have a small mountain cat to terrorize people with would you?”
Not now, since I am new in this website. But I eat hot troll.
BTW, Arne, I thought HWSNBN was a reference to the evil Voldemort of "Harry Potter" infamy. But then again, I'm a relative cultural illiterate. AND I know next to nuthin' about the internets.
ReplyDeleteI see today you sent the "memo" to kos -- nothing like that endless circle of links.
ReplyDeleteI regularly use Firefox. This morning I could read your column just fine with a beige background. Now it is dark brown and a mess. Whatever you did -- undo it, please.
ReplyDeleteBart replying if he accepts torture:
ReplyDelete"Which version? The real thing by Saddam Hussein? No. Fake torture by Lynndie England? Yes. Unfortunately, that's illegal now as well."
The major is more moderate: "Nobody's for torture that goes without saying. but sometimes the only way to get the information we need is to rough up some terrorists a little bit. Well forgive me for not shedding any tears over that."
This is delusion. If someone starts talking after "moderate torture" then most probably he (or she) could be simply bribed, intimidated with indefinite detension etc. In the few cited instances of "effectiveness of torture" it was the whole enchilada. Saddam is probably one of the "success stories".
The scenario "45 minutes to a nuclear explosion" is preposterous on many levels. It presupposes that somehow we know precisely when the bomb will detonate but we do not know exactly where. Number two, if someone beats up the prisoner under such circumstances no jury will find him guilty, Even so, it is probably futile. Number three, without specialized training and psychological conditioning, it is very doubtful that torture will do any good, thus we have to train vast numbers of people in the application of torture for the few instances where it is "justified according to the doctrine of Alan Derschowitz".
This is not a slippery slope situation, this is a slope covered with hard solid ice with jagged rocks flanking the bottom.
Piotr
”he ignores whatever is inconvenient to his "argument du jour" and repeats his latest mantra as if no one has refuted it.”
ReplyDeleteI think liberal minds will analyze all ideas including the most conservative ones for their usefulness. Sadly, the conservative mind appears limited to the much smaller subset of conservative ideas and perhaps is aware of this. Hence the gnashing of teeth. Or flapping of gums I don’t know which..
Following up on your post -- any good tough objective questions you think I should ask Alan Dershowitz in an upcoming interview? (About his new book "Preemption", AIPAC, the Palestinians, the war on terror etc.) He likes really tough questions, and gets bored by softballs...
ReplyDeleteJust so you know, I host ThoughtCast, a podcast and public radio interview program with authors and academics (www.thoughtcast.org) and he's my next guest. You will, of course, get credited for any questions of yours I use -- as I ask them.
Thanks very much!
Jenny