But the most audacious argument for new and expanded war was advanced on Sunday by Bill Kristol, on Fox News, where he said this:
And indeed, this is a great opportunity. I think our weakness, unfortunately, invited this aggression, but this aggression is a great opportunity to begin resuming the offensive against the terrorist groups. Israel is fighting four of our five enemies in the Middle East, in a sense. Iran, Syria, sponsors of terror; Hezbollah and Hamas. Al Qaeda doesn’t seem to be involved. We have to take care of them in Iraq. This is an opportunity to begin to reverse the unfortunate direction of the last six to nine months and get the terrorists and the jihadists back on the defensive.
So, "Israel is fighting four of our five enemies in the Middle East" -- the only small exception being Al-Qaeda, which, as Cenk Uygur pointed out in this excellent post, happens to be the only group which actually attacked us. As I noted on Saturday, Kristol is now arguing that the Israeli war is really "our war," and on Sunday he took that a step further by claiming that groups devoted exclusively to fighting Israel are somehow also among our "five enemies in the Middle East." (Interestingly, Kristol doesn't appear to count among our five Middle Eastern enemies the insurgents whom we are actually fighting in Iraq; he only counts as our enemies those whom Israel is currently attacking or threatening to attack).
In what conceivable way are Hamas and Hezbollah enemies of the United States? They are unquestionably enemies of Israel, but what grounds exist even for arguing that they are our enemies? And while Syria undoubtedly is no fan of the U.S., what actions has it engaged in that would make it a threat to the U.S. even remotely sufficient to wage war on it? Plainly, Kristol, like so many neoconservatives, recognizes no difference of any kind between U.S. and Israeli interests, and is thus salivating at the opportunity to finally induce the U.S. to wage war on Israel's enemies.
For that reason, I think this article in this weekend's Washington Post is groundbreaking and critically important. It extensively and fairly addresses a question which most mainstream media outlets have fearfully avoided -- namely, the effect of the domestic Israeli lobby on U.S. foreign policy. With our military action in Iraq, that question was declared all but off limits, as war advocates, from the President on down, claimed that there was something malignant about questioning to what extent our urgent need to get rid of Saddam Hussein was influenced by a desire to bolster Israeli, rather than American, security.
George Bush himself instructed us that discussions of the role Israel plays in our Middle East policy is off limits when he told us that we must engage only in responsible debate over Iraq, not irresponsible debate, which he defined to include discussions of the extent to which a desire to protect Israel (or a desire to preserve oil supplies) influenced our invasion of Iraq:
Yet we must remember there is a difference between responsible and irresponsible debate -- and it's even more important to conduct this debate responsibly when American troops are risking their lives overseas.
The American people know the difference between responsible and irresponsible debate when they see it. They know the difference between honest critics who question the way the war is being prosecuted and partisan critics who claim that we acted in Iraq because of oil, or because of Israel, or because we misled the American people. And they know the difference between a loyal opposition that points out what is wrong, and defeatists who refuse to see that anything is right.
And consistent with the Commander-in-Chief's decree, anyone who has argued that a desire to protect Israeli interests plays too large of a role in our foreign policy has been subjected to some of the most vicious and relentless smears. Ask Juan Cole about that, or John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. Those tactics have, as intended, prevented a substantive debate on this question, as most people have feared even approaching the topic.
But that tactic isn't likely to work any longer. If neoconservatives are now going to argue openly and explicitly that we should intervene in this war because we have to fight with Israel against our common Islamic opponents, surely it now must be considered "responsible debate" to question to what extent the U.S.'s willingness to act in the Middle East is motivated by an excessive or unwise commitment to Israeli security. Bill Kristol and friends are again advocating an extraordinary measure -- that the U.S. join Israel in this war. A full and open debate on that topic is vital.
It is undoubtedly true that some people who object to what they claim ís Israel's excessive influence over American actions, or who argue that Israel is to blame for all of the conflict in the Middle East, are acting with less than noble sentiments (or worse), just as it is the case that some who urge greater American aggression in the Middle East are doing so out of loyalty to Israeli interests far more than to American interests.
But it is also the case that there are many who object to excessive Israeli allegiance because they believe in perfectly good faith that it is harmful to American interests or otherwise immoral, just as there are many people who believe in good faith that it really is in America's interests to stand by Israel because it is a close and democratic ally in the Middle East. The existence of extremists in a debate, or the fact that some on both sides are motivated by bad faith, hardly means the debate should be off-limits. And this debate is far too important to allow smear tactics and manipulative accusations of anti-semitism to prevent its full and vigorous airing.
Many people are arguing now that the influence of neoconservatives is less than what is was and so, too, is the administration's appetite for more war. Perhaps. But history is suffuse with examples of countries which found themselves in new wars or escalated wars not because they chose to be, but because circumstances, or miscalculation, or uncontrollable hostilities, dragged them into it.
We have 140,000 soldiers sitting in the center of the Middle East, and we have had multiple skirmishes in the past with both the Syrians and Iranians as a result of our activities in Iraq. In a climate where the administration's most prominent and loyal followers are urging that we wage war on those two countries, and with the administration itself at least sounding as though they are tempted by the idea, the likelihood of unintentional escalation, or reckless expansion of our war, is extremely high. If that is really a risk which our country wants to take after a full and open debate on the topic, so be it.
But the last thing that ought to happen is a repeat of our invasion of Iraq, where we began an extremely risky and misguided war against a country that wasn't threatening us without meaningful media scrutiny and therefore without a meaningful debate. The debate was not meaningful because objections to the war were stigmatized as seditious or even anti-semitic. That is a mistake that the U.S. cannot afford to make again.
The fact that the administration does not intend to wage war on Iran and/or Syria doesn't mean that such a war won't occur. And if the administration has not committed itself yet to causing such a war, they sure don't appear to be shying away from it either. They surely know full well that they are playing with gasoline near a raging fire, and they appear to be indifferent to the risks, if not actively seeking them. Why that is the case, and whether it is wise, must be topics that are fully open to examination.
UPDATE: Arthur Silber has some trenchant observations about how these debate-squelching tactics work in this context.
Well, after all, one of the reasons the neoconservatives allowed 9/11 to happen (or made it happen), was to get the US in the same mindset as Israel. Netanyahu admitted on the morning of 9/11 that it was good for Israel.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying Israel was behind 9/11, by any means, though there is evidence for Israeli involvement-- but clearly there is more to 9/11 than is officially admitted, and it is clear neoconservatives were happy 9/11 happened, as it furthered their goals.
You all can put the rest together.
They surely know full well that they are playing with gasoline near a raging fire, and they appear to be indifferent to the risks, if not actively seeking them.
ReplyDeleteWell put. Unfortunately, this administration has shown time and time again that they do not learn from their mistakes and in fact, they actively reward those who commit the biggest blunders.
IMHO, if we do go to war against Syria or Iran (God forbid) , it will be a disaster of such magnitude that it will make the folly in Iraq look like a weekend National Guard training exercise.
The only sane thing to come out of a war against Iran or Syria will be that an enourmous anti-war movement will finally coalesce because The Draft will have to be restarted to feed the war machine...
Terrific post. I, too, thought that WaPo was gutsy to address the issue head-on yesterday. Instead of what usually passes for "balance" in the media, that particular article actually tried to cover much of the history and viewpoints from both sides. Arthur Silber's post today is also relevant regarding the need for dispassionate analysis. Unfortunately, when it comes to the Middle East, most Americans are sadly ignorant about the culture and history of any country other than Israel. Most educational courses that teach students about cultures other than European cultures aren't available until college, and with only 25% of our population attending college it's hardly surprising that so many Americans only hold the stereotypes of other cultures that are promulgated by the traditional media.
ReplyDeleteAfter all the high-falutin words settle, I often conclude that the neocons politics are no more deep than "our side" and "their side," and they want a splendid little war to prove how tough they are. They have all the subtlety of a professional wrestling promotion.
ReplyDeleteWonder?
ReplyDeleteIt feels sometimes that these people (The Neo-Cons, and some of our government officials) are born of a Jewish blood…. What country (USA) would put another country’s (Israel) goals, and plans ahead of hers…It defies logic and we as American citizens are paying the price and should be asking our selves:
What are our strategic and economic benefits in our blind alliance with Israel? Is the Jewish Lobby and influence in this country is of such magnitude that it trumps our own national interest?
We have accused Muslims (I’m not one) of occasionally putting their religious following ahead of their country’s, I however wonder if the same is true for many of our government and media effective players…
Go look to see if those who got us involved in the conflict in Iraq and now want us involved in Lebanon and later Syria and Iran have some Jewish background.
Hope but doubt that I’m wrong…?
IJB
Glenn, thanks for directing me to Arthur Silber's site. Silber is clearly a true libertarian, and his first post explicates that Irving Kristol manifesto from The Weekly Standard that I quoted from and linked to here a few threads ago.
ReplyDeleteAs Silber amply demonstrates, one cannot be a libertarian and also be in bed with these neocons -- short of extremely minimal and temporary alliances, which I can see no cause for existing at this moment. It. Can't. Be. Done.
Someone needs to tell "libertarian" Glenn Reynolds, and a few others. Like "neo-libertarian" Jeff Goldstein.
Go look to see if those who got us involved in the conflict in Iraq and now want us involved in Lebanon and later Syria and Iran have some Jewish background.
ReplyDeleteLike Newt Gingrich? Or Don Rumsfeld? Or Dick Cheney?
This is the kind of mindless, stupid trash that discredits the whole question and allows them to depict this objection as coming from a malignant bigotry.
Yeah, there are some people who want to involve the U.S. in the Middle East because they have a conscious or subconscious affinity for Israel which is motivating them. That is unqestionably true. But there are plenty of other reasons driving people to want more war in the Middle East, and to reduce it to that single explanation, when it is so clearly false, does raise legitimate questions about motives.
Go look to see if those who got us involved in the conflict in Iraq and now want us involved in Lebanon and later Syria and Iran have some Jewish background.
ReplyDeleteSome of the hardcore neocons do, but just as many or more are Catholic or otherwise Christian-derived. (You could look this up yourself.)
It is safe to assume their ties are more geopolitical/realpolitik than ethnic or religious.
The PNAC program which targetted Iraq, Iran, and Syria before GW ever entered office is Machiavellian and amoral, but is assuredly not fanatical.
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On another note, remember when we backed the Taliban and al Qaeda because "their interests were our own"? I can't help but wonder if 15-20 years from now we will be attacked by radical Israeli gangs that we fostered back when it seemed our interests coincided.
The best foreign policy we could adopt would be to quit backing violent actors.
The best foreign policy we could adopt would be to quit backing violent actors.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that be an amazing turnaround. Unfortunatly any cred we had as a force for good dissolved when we attacked a country that didn't threaten us....
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Douglas Feith, Steven Hadley, David Wurmser, the necons who helped Israel design its new hardline strategy in 1996, and then went on to do the same for the US under Bush? What about Wolfowitz and Perle, and William Kristol?
ReplyDeleteThese guys were all instrumental in getting us into the Iraq war, and although they publically had different agendas, and didnt talk about the connection to Israel, that was presumably one of their motives.
The logic of getting rid of Saddam before this latest phase of the Israeli plan could begin now seems clear.
When you buy a new car or a house, you fully believe this is the right and best thing for you to do, for your family, your happiness, your strategic position, etc. You tend to forget that it also benefits the dealer's strategic position too, and in a sense you have merely gone along with the dealer's plans.
Here's a question for everyone:
ReplyDeleteWho here thinks an open, clear debate on this is actually going to happen?
Arlen Specter's chief of staff explains why Jesus Christ is out now. Please, Christians, don't mention Jesus Christ anymore. Jesus stands in the way of the Evangelicals plan to attack Iran.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone is entitled to a little revenge at this point in history, it would be the atheists taking revenge against all these irrational religious people who are intent on ending this planet.
But this type of "revenge" is generally in the domain of the religious people. People who use reason as their moral guide are not likely to see "revenge" as a rational concept....
We're Being Set Up for Wider War in the Middle East
-Paul Craig Roberts
antiwar.com
The old adage, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" does not apply to Americans, who have shown that they can be endlessly fooled.
Neoconservatives deceived Americans into an illegal attack and debilitating war in Iraq. American neoconservatives are closely allied with Israel's Likud Party....
Despite questions of dual loyalties, neocons hold high positions in the Bush regime. Ten years ago these architects of American foreign and military policy spelled out how they would use deception to achieve "important Israeli strategic objectives" in the Middle East. First, they would focus "on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." This would open the door for Israel to provoke attacks from Hezbollah. The attacks would let Israel gain American sympathy and permit Israel to seize the strategic initiative by "engaging Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon."
Today, this neoconservative plan is unfolding before our eyes. Israel has used the capture of two of its soldiers in Lebanon as an excuse for an all-out air and naval bombardment against Lebanese civilian targets. However, a number of commentators have pointed out that such a massive attack requires weeks if not months of preparation that could not be done overnight in response to the capture of the soldiers.
Regardless, in the first two days of the Israeli military attack on Lebanon more than a hundred civilians, including Canadians, have been killed by Israeli bombs (gifts from U.S. taxpayers). The Beirut International Airport has been repeatedly bombed, as have residential neighborhoods, roads, bridges, ports, and power stations.
Soldiers are a legitimate military target. Civilians, civilian neighborhoods, tourists, and international airports are not. Under the Nuremberg standard used to sentence Nazi war criminals to death, the Israeli government is clearly guilty of war crimes.
Meanwhile, the Israelis are committing identical war crimes in Gaza. Again Israel's excuse is the capture of an Israeli soldier. However, the distinguished Israeli professor Ran HaCohen said that the Israeli army "had been demanding a massive attack on Gaza long before the Israeli soldier was kidnapped."
By blocking UN Security Council action against Israel for its massacre of civilians in Gaza, the Bush regime has made itself complicit in these monstrous war crimes. Just as Germans who supported Hitler were deemed to be complicit in his war crimes, Americans who support Bush are complicit in Bush's war crimes...
Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government. It does not rule Lebanon. Hezbollah is the militia organization founded in 1982 in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Hezbollah defeated the Israeli army and drove out the Israeli invaders six years ago.
According to the BBC, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said that the two Israeli soldiers "were captured to pressure Israel to release the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in its jails," especially the women and children.
The BBC also notes that although Hezbollah operates "from Lebanese territory and the militant group has two ministers in the Lebanese government, the central government is almost powerless to influence the militant group." (Note that the BBC applies the loaded word "militant" to Hezbollah but not to Israel.) Hezbollah, reports the BBC, "is also very popular in Lebanon and highly respected for its political activities, social services, and its military record against Israel."
The prime minister of Lebanon, who was installed with President Bush's approval when Syria, under Bush's pressure, recently withdrew its troops from Lebanon, has twice appealed to Bush to pressure Israel to stop its criminal attacks. Our great moral, democratic, Christian leader has twice rebuffed the appeal from the legal representative of the Lebanese people. Instead, Bush is willingly going along with the 1996 neocon script. Bush is laying the blame on Syria and Iran, exactly as the neocon script calls for him to do.
When Bush demands that Syria "stop Hezbollah attacks," he forgets that he was the one who forced Syria out of Lebanon (to enable Israel to attack Lebanon). If Americans were attentive, they would be ashamed to witness "their" president acting as an Israeli propagandist.
Fox "News," CNN, and the rest of the Bush propaganda ministry are echoing the lie that innocent Israel is under attack from the "terrorist states" of Syria and Iran through their surrogate, Hezbollah. Americans, who are sick of the Iraq occupation and want the troops home, are being fooled again and set up for wider war in the Middle East.
Evangelical "Christians" are part of the propaganda show. Three thousand of them, under the lead of the Rev. John C. Hagee, are heading to Washington for a "Washington/Israel summit" to demand, needlessly, that the neocon Bush regime show "stronger support for Israel."
It is difficult to see how Bush could show any stronger support without using the U.S. military to assist Israel in its attacks, which is, of course, what the "Christian" Rev. Hagee intends when he declares: "There's a new Hitler in the Middle East [he doesn't mean Bush or Olmert]. The only way he will be stopped will be by a preemptive military strike in Iran."
Present at Rev. Hagee's "Washington/Israel Summit" will be Israel's former Minister of Defense, Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon, Israeli Ambassador Daniel Ayalon, Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman, Republican Senators Sam Brownback and Rick Santorum, the Rev. Jerry Falwell, and Gary Bauer.
The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the most powerful lobby in Washington, expressed its thanks to Rev. Hagee for demonstrating "the depth and breadth of American support" for Israel. Recently, AIPAC has been under investigation as a suspected nest for Israeli spies.
David Brog, former chief of staff for Republican Sen. Arlen Specter, has gone to work for Rev. Hagee. Brog, who is Jewish, says he works for Hagee's evangelical enterprise because "we're bringing into a pro-Israel camp millions of Christians who love Israel and giving them a political voice. Israel's enemies are our enemies, and this group instinctively understands that." Brog goes on to say that Hagee's evangelicals understand that they are not supposed to talk about Jesus, only about saving Israel: "Christians who work with Jews in supporting Israel realize how sensitive we are in talking about Jesus. They realize it will interfere with what they are trying to do."
Gentle reader, is this an admission that evangelicals have set aside Jesus for war? Do these bloody-minded evangelicals really believe they will be wafted to Heaven for helping Israel involve the U.S. in more war? Have evangelicals forgotten that "an eye for an eye" is Old Testament? "Turn the other cheek" is New Testament.
On July 14, Reuters reported that alone among Christians, the "Vatican condemns Israel for attacks on Lebanon."
Whose delusion is the greatest – the evangelical "rapture" delusion, the neocon delusion about American power, or the Zionist delusion? The three together mean disaster for America, Israel, and the world.
One of the great evangelical/Zionist/neocon myths is that "tiny Israel" armed with 200 nuclear weapons is threatened by Muslim Middle Eastern countries. In actual fact, Egypt and Pakistan, which have the bulk of the Middle Eastern Muslim population, are ruled by American puppets. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates are totally dependent on U.S. protection and, thereby, are also under the American thumb. Iran is Persian, not Arab, and has no common borders with Israel. Hezbollah was created when Israel tried to seize Lebanon in 1982. Hamas is a Palestinian response to the atrocities Palestinians have suffered for a half century at Israel's hands.
Israel's land-stealing policy is the source of Middle Eastern instability. America is hated because American money and weapons are what enable Israel to steal Palestine from Palestinians.
As numerous Middle East experts have pointed out, what is decried as "Arab terrorism against Israel" is, in fact, the only tactic Muslims have for calling the world's attention to the plight of the Palestinians, about which Americans are generally ignorant.
It is absurd for Bush to condemn Syria for not behaving as an American puppet and for not fighting Israel's battles by taking on Hezbollah. Syria and Iran (and Iraq prior to the U.S. invasion) are the only Middle Eastern countries independent of American control. It is far beyond the boundaries of reason and morality to expect these two remaining independent countries to give up their independence in order to enable Israel to steal Palestine and southern Lebanon.
It is the refusal of Syria and Iran (and Saddam Hussein's Iraq) to stand with Israel against Palestine that has made them targets for American attack. Neocons have total control of U.S. foreign policy in the Bush regime, and they have morphed our strategic interests into Israel's.
As the neoconservative architects of Bush's wars revealed in 1996, their concern lies with Israeli strategic objectives.
Why exactly is support of Israel in the Middle East in our national interest? If our whole interest in the ME is oil, and our support of Israel is an embarassment to rulers like the Saudis, what is Israel gaining us? Surely, we dont need their military. Is Israel in some way our enforcer, intended to insure that no strong SECULAR state emerges in the ME? Can someone explain to me how this works?
ReplyDeleteIf support of Israel is not really in our strategic interest, then presumably our links to Israel are mainly sentimental, or coerced, as comments on the Israel lobby suggest.
UPDATE: Arthur Silber has some trenchant observations about how these debate-squelching tactics work in this context.
ReplyDelete1. It is not "anti-Semitic" to criticize the state of Israel, even in the severest of terms, without more. A state is only a political designation, referring to the government that controls a specified geographic area. The state of Israel is not coextensive with the "Jews" or with the "Jewish people." The concepts do not refer to the same things at all.
2. It is not "anti-Semitic" to criticize the government of Israel, without more. When we use "government" in this manner, we refer to those individuals who hold power in the state of Israel, and who choose and implement that government's policies. The government of Israel is not coextensive with the "Jews" or with the "Jewish people." The concepts do not refer to the same things at all.
This is an interesting topic.
Israel and the Jews can be synonymous because Israel is a Jewish state. Therefore, criticism or slander of Israel can be and anti-semitic attack on the Jews running that state.
Many muslims make no bones about the anti-semitic roots of their attacks on Israel. However, Western critics are more circumspect.
You have to smoke out whether their critiques are policy based or just old fashioned anti-semitism. One way of doing this is to look for double standards. For example, is there a double standard for Israel when it comes to the use of force or other polices which is not present for their opponents? It appears so.
This could be evidence of anti-smitism or maybe its just another example of the western left's double standard placed on the United States or any other democracy which uses military force.
Both are viable explanations. Take your choice.
Why exactly is support of Israel in the Middle East in our national interest?
ReplyDeleteIf one buys into the 'clash of civilizations' trope, then one might see Israel as the only functioning democracy in the Middle East.
We definitely have an interest in the region, but afaics, our close alliance with Israel (more specifically, Likud) causes us as many problems as it does benefits.
What the neocons would like us to believe is that Arab culture is inherently incompatible with democracy and free markets, they want to view the situation in cold-war terms, with Islamism replacing Communism.
Personally, I think this is all bollocks, but that is the neocon reasoning.
Glenn Greenwald (astonishingly) asks:
ReplyDeleteIn what conceivable way are Hamas and Hezbollah enemies of the United States?
Let us count the ways…
Daniel Pipes provides a comprehensive list that should satisfy all but the most incorrigible anti-Semites here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, since the vast majority of anti-Semites in the U.S. are embraced and welcomed into the fever-swamp left that Glenn so lustily represents, I doubt this evidence will have much effect, at least on this blog.
Nonetheless, it is there for all to see.
I recently set up a blog and starting posting, and posted the following:
ReplyDeleteMonday, June 26, 2006
Issue Not Talked Enough About
Other than on Altercation I don't see much written about the Palestinian / Jewish conflict on the blogosphere...........may just be the blogs I'm reading regularly. Anyway, in light of the connection of this conflict to the rise of Islamoextremism it is certainly a topic worthy of greater coverage. There is perhaps no greater example of religious intolerance than the current conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. On both sides. Americans generally have a natural affinity for the state of Israel. This is not simply because of the large Jewish population of the US and any undue influence that a powerful Jewish lobby purportedly has over the policies of the US government. Of course our common religious traditions play a big role as well in our affection for and support of the Israelis.
I think this support also comes down to an American willingness to pull for the little guy. The small state of Israel is surrounded by a sea of Arabs and has fought at least 4 major wars against them, often against overwhelming odds. Americans love an underdog, and early on in the existence of the Jewish state this was certainly the case. Not only this, but one could also say that the history of the Jewish people post-WWII is also perhaps the greatest comeback story of all time. After being almost eliminated by a genocidal maniac in Hitler the Jewish people were able to come together and arise from the ashes of ruin like a phoenix. Anyone who has read Exodus can not but help to admire the Jewish people and their difficult struggle for survival.
Yet the American love affair with Israel is also one that is fraught with difficulty. The neoconservatives who pushed for the war in Iraq did so at least in part because they believed that it would benefit our Israeli ally. However, the Iraq War could actually prove to make things worse for the state of Israel. While Saddam Hussein may have paid for terrorists to blow themselves up on Jewish buses, his state was not really a threat to the existence of Israel. The continuing US presence in Iraq and the impact that this is having on recruiting for the Islamofascists could prove to be a longer term threat.
Also, in gereral the US support for Israel continues to be a problem in our dealings with the Arab/Muslim world. While I am not advocating that the US should abandon its support for Israel it is essential that we do more to support a peaceful negotiation of the differences between the Israelis and Palestinians. Given the nature of American politics anyone questioning support for Isreal will quickly be ostracized. Somehow we have to get beyond this. The US government must be more forceful in convincing the Israelis to work out a negotiated settlement before it is too late..........if its not already. Things seem to be going in the opposite direction, especially the last few years under the Bush administration. All parties share some blame in this but it is time to move beyond the "blame game." My big concern is that a Democratic administration might not do much more to push the Israelis toward a peaceful settlement. Here is where the politics of the Jewish vote in the US unfortunately does make a difference. I don't know the answer to this delimma but I do know that as long as the state of Israel basically treats the Palestinian territories like Bantustans and the US doesn't at least seem to do something about it, our relations with the Muslim world will not improve and Islamic extremism is likely to continue to grow.
=================
Thanks for the link to the Washingon Post article Glenn, it is one that I had skipped over. Perhaps AIPAC didn't really push for the Iraq War, and maybe the state of Israel wasn't really in favor of it either????? But I think its obvious that the neocons in the administration thought this war would help transform the Middle East and make it a safer environment for Israel, and certainly took this into consideration in pushing for the conflict. Sadly, we'll be dealing with the consequences of this misadventure for a long time.
This is an interesting topic.
ReplyDeleteIran and the Muslims can be synonymous because Iran is a Muslim state. Therefore, criticism or slander of Iran can be and anti-Islamic attack on the Muslims running that state.
Many Jews make no bones about the anti-Islamic roots of their attacks on Iran. However, Western critics are more circumspect.
You have to smoke out whether their critiques are policy based or just old fashioned anti-Islamism. One way of doing this is to look for double standards. For example, is there a double standard for Iran when it comes to the use of force or other polices (*ahem* *nuclear* *cough*) which is not present for their opponents? It appears so.
This could be evidence of anti-Islamism or maybe its just another example of the western rights's double standard placed on the United States or any other democracy which uses military force.
Both are viable explanations. Take your choice.
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Of course, I don't recognize any really significant historical anti-Islam current in America, but I just wanted to point out the vacuity of bart's "logic".
When Sec. State Rice made the comment that Israel should use restraint, Israel told her to back off.
ReplyDeleteThe kidnap of Israeli soldiers is an act of war.
The US has no part in this. It has no influence. Bush lost any ability to do much of anything because of Iraq.
In no way would Israel allow Us troops to "help" in this war.
People are getting so upset about the wrong things.
We aren't getting into this war, we have 2 of our own, if you don't count the war on terrah.
Bush is losing power daily on the world stage.
The US government is finding out that it can't control what goes on in other countries.
I'd watch the deal between the White House and Arlen Spector about the FISA bit. Speaking of sweeping something under the rug.
Maude
This could be evidence of anti-smitism or maybe its just another example of the western left's double standard placed on the United States or any other democracy which uses military force.
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain the sizable portion of Israelis who reject Likud and strongly criticize the excess militarism of the Israeli government?
Are they anti-semites or are they just applying a double standard to any democracy using military force?
aaron: They're the famous self-hating jews ;)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, there were NO charges of anti-Semitism coming from those who criticized the Iraq war. I was a vocal critic of the Iraq War before we invaded, I'm also Jewish, and I don't think misrepresenting the past will benefit our side any more than their historical rewrite of why we invaded benefits their argument,
ReplyDelete(whoops, posted too soon)
ReplyDeleteGlenn, there were NO charges of anti-Semitism coming at those who criticized the Iraq war that I could see. I was a vocal critic of the Iraq War before we invaded, I'm also Jewish, and I don't think misrepresenting the past will benefit our side any more than their historical rewrite of why we invaded benefits their argument.
The Iraq War had nothing to do with Israel and critics of it were not charged with anti-Semitism in any meaningful or notworthy way (except possibly by a few wingnut kooks).
Making the Iraq War fiasco into part of a Jewish conspiracy or Israel-related lobbying investigations deeply hurts our legitimate argument as to the Iraq War's fundamental illigitimacy.
Thus your argument pains me because it veers into classic historical conspiracy theory type of views. And while your motives may be pure, those who claim they're being called "Anti-Semitic" when criticizing something are often doth protesting too much about a charge that was never leveled in the first place.
IMHO, the only way to force an honest and open debate about anything to do with our foreign policies in the Middle East -- from the current Iraq situation to what is now happening in Israel -- is to bring back the draft and fill the ranks with troops.
ReplyDeleteThe very discussion of the draft brings the realities of war and the consequences of people's positions in direct sunlight.
If Bill Kristol wants to debate fighting a war, he should be looking directly into the eyes of the 18 to 25 year old men and women along with each and every soldier's parent and then tell them why they should accept risking their lives to die for whatever cause Bill Kristol has never personally sacrificed for in his lifetime.
Jacob Zipfel:
ReplyDelete"The Palestinians by the way never existed as a people or entity until the UN plan came about. Before that, there has never been a Palestinian state throughout all of history. And, it is important to note that the Jews have the oldest claims to the land, as the current Palestinians have no connections to the inhabitants that came before the Jews, the Philestines and other similar tribes."
The Palestinians never existed as a people? So who were the people that lived in the region for hundreds and hundreds of years? And did these people disappear, only to have the UN "mandated" Palestinians appear? You say they have no connection to the Philestines? Have you done genetic testing?
The Jews have the oldest claim? Is this a religious claim (no thanks). Does being defeated 2000 years ago mean nothing from a historic point of view? Seriously, the Native Americans have the "Oldest claim" to this entire continent...we have as less connection to this continent than the "Palestinians" do to the region they have lived in for Lord knows how long.
I'm not ragging on Israel for this, but the argument...we were first (but not since the beginning of the common era) is the least compelling arguement of all to me.
And while your motives may be pure, those who claim they're being called "Anti-Semitic" when criticizing something are often doth protesting too much about a charge that was never leveled in the first place.
ReplyDeleteJustin Raimando of course has made his entire career out of accusing the neocons of leading our country into supporting Israel to our own detriment. He does occasionally go over the top with his accusations but as a side benefit, he has carefully documented hundreds of instances where the anti-semitism charge has been used in an attempt to silence war critics.
Who here thinks an open, clear debate on this is actually going to happen?
ReplyDeleteIn Congress and the MSM? Not any time soon. Unless the Draft is restarted of course...
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ReplyDeletethey would have to act a lot differently to fit their own ideas of how the endtimes will occur.
ReplyDeleteAfter they're done arguing among themselves about which end-times scenario is truest. Jesus of course stated unambiguously that the coming of the Kingdom would take place within the lifetimes of the people he was speaking to. Ever since then, we've been making it up as we go.
Kristol is now arguing that the Israeli war is really "our war"
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect?
.
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ReplyDeleteAnd, it is important to note that the Jews have the oldest claims to the land
ReplyDeleteYou mean to isolated pockets of the land. But let's not let archeology get in the way of the text that Josiah "found."
.
My point is that for the evangelicals to fit your nutty conspiracy theories, they would have to act a lot differently to fit their own ideas of how the endtimes will occur.
ReplyDeleteIt is no 'conspiracy theory' to note that the Rapture rhetoric has been used to push certain geopolitical ideas, such as that turmoil in the ME precedes the Rapture.
If you are expecting Rapture fundies to act consistently, well, I'm afraid you will be disappointed. The movement relies solely on a few particular translations of the prophecies and only dates back a couple hundred years. There is no list of signs universally accepted in the movement, and they are continually arguing among themselves over which have been fulfilled, which are relevant, what order, what timespan, what geographical location, whether or not Jewish prophecy (e.g. the "Red Heifer" stuff) ties in, whether or not Bush is the Anti-Christ or a great leader, etc.
anonymous at 2:06,
ReplyDeleteSo *that's* why so many people in Palm Beach county, Florida, voted for Pat Buchanan in 2000!
Anon claims:there were NO charges of anti-Semitism coming from those who criticized the Iraq war. I was a vocal critic of the Iraq War before we invaded, I'm also Jewish, and I don't think misrepresenting the past will benefit our side any more than their historical rewrite of why we invaded benefits their argument,
ReplyDeleteWaPo:
The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration "neocons" so "the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world." He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
"Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation," McGovern said. "The last time I did this [before the war ed. – Hypatia], the previous director of Central Intelligence called me anti-Semitic."
Or see what was said of Rep. James Moran
Or read then-pro-war Sully in 2002, the wages of hate, anti-semitism and the war.
Anti-semitism was a frequent accusation leveled at those who opposed the war in Iraq leading up to it, and to my shame, I tolerated that at the time.
Oh, yes. Greenwald again trots out an old favorite: the suppression of any talk about Israel. This is a complete falsehood and Greenwald knows it. Whether we went into Iraq for the "sake of Israel" was discussed in total secrecy. That is, if you don't count Tim Russert, Maureen Dowd, Chris Matthews, Pat Buchanan, the Mclaughlin Group, Don Imus etc. But don't let these facts stand in the way of Greenwald bravely stepping up as the grand protector of free speech and against those dual-loyalist neocons who are suppressing our right to freely speak.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, back in the real world, there is a war going on that will likely have far reaching consequences, and not just for the Israel. We have a completely unique situation -- a first -- where the Israeli Zionist Aggressors are engaged in battle against Arabs and Muslims and Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan are blaming their fellow Arabs. Why? Because of Iran.
While calls for American military involvement at this juncture are stupid for so many reasons, to deny that what's going on does not profoundly influence America's War is equally foolish. Don't over-reach, Greenwald. Calling out those who say we should jump in the fray is one thing. But don't turn this into another opportunity to make your ridiculous and false argument about Zionist suppression of free speech.
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ReplyDeleteNo, you misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteThere is no need to posit any sort of conscious collusion (i.e. a 'conspiracy') between the American fundamentalist Christians and the American political neocons.
However, I feel there can be no denying the correlation between the two groups goals and rhetoric, and the overlap between their base.
There is no need to posit any sort of conscious collusion (i.e. a 'conspiracy') between the American fundamentalist Christians and the American political neocons.
ReplyDeleteExcept insofar as intelligent evil people are taking complete advanatage of pious but gullible ones, and destroying our civil society in the process.
Other than that...everything's fine!
jacob zipfel:
ReplyDelete"America is fundamentally an idealist and romantic nation. While, realism has reigned in certain contexts, we are attracted to high ideals. Hence, the affinity for Isreal. It is seen as a beacon of democracy in a forelorn and desperate region."
You lost me....
How can a state who bases their existance on racial or religious class distinctions be considered "a beacon of democracy?"
I broached the issue of why the Iraq war benefits Israel in January of this year. Since my blog attracts little attention, I got little accusation of being an anti-semite.
ReplyDeleteNoteworthy in the posting, I think, is the link to The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ report, "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." Contributors to this paper include Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser. Many of these writers are well-known neoconservatives.
This report is quite blunt in its assessment oh why a war with Iraq by the Us would benefit Israel's long-term agenda in the Mideast:
Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions. [my emphasis]
I disagree with much of the anti-Israel commentary here, but perhaps we can all agree on this (though I doubt it): After the Mearshiemer/Walt piece, the follow-ups in Foreign Policy magazine and the New York Review of Books, the endless posts by Glenn and the other he cites favorably, the extended Washington Post article, and the many hundreds of comments (pro and con) on this issue on virtually every blog that raises it, can we at least forever put to bed the notion that it is "courageous" to raise the issue of the Israeli lobby's power and that this issue is never openly discussed? What a welcome relief that would be.
ReplyDeleteSheldon,
ReplyDeleteI agree entirely. Glenn's been beating this tired and false drum forever. I called him out on it in previous posts and he (repeatedly) never responded. I recall watching Tim friggin' Russert ask his guest (Powell, maybe) if we're fighting this war for Israel. THAT'S how mainstream it was. I recall many an article (see my post above) centered on the ridiculous notion that we're doing Ariel Sharon's bidding and that we're going to war for the sake of Israel. The examples go on and on. Glenn never owns up to this. Instead, he'll take criticism of Juan Cole or Mearshimer/Walt and elevate it beyond proportions. Moreover, this criticism he calls suppression of free speech rather than an exercise of free speech itself.
mds, please don't be disingenuous. If you read the comments here, many of them use the word "Israel" in their criticisms, not "Likud" or the like. More important, you seem to feel it's fine to criticize the Israel lobby, accuse its members of dual loyalty, eagerness to have American soldiers die on behalf of Israel, and other nefarious, even treasonous and bloodthirsty goals, but that the name calling you get from SOME responders is a threat that prevents the very discussion we're having from taking place. Please.
ReplyDeleteI long for the days of exotic air and spacecraft and expensive toilet seats for assisting the welfare of corporations. Perhaps keeping Israel as a pet may eventually produce the same results, somehow. But after almost sixty years I think it’s been worse than unleashing a mountain cat for live stage act.
ReplyDeleteI am just trying to see it from the top players point of view.
Instead, he'll take criticism of Juan Cole or Mearshimer/Walt and elevate it beyond proportions.
ReplyDeleteJuan Cole just lost a professorship at Yale because of his criticisms. As for Mearshimer and Walt, I don't know of any two academicians who have been more scorned and whose credibility and character have been impugned than those two.
Now, mind you, all criticism - even the most virulent, personal and vicious - is still far short of actual suppression or punishment, and I don't suggest otherwise. Sometimes, if you want to express an opinion, you need to be willing to withstand even those sorts of character attacks.
But those attacks do deter many people from discussing this issue openly - just look at the much-noted dearth of discussion of this war in the liberal blogosphere, and particularly U.S.-Israel relations - and these topics are too important for one side of the debate, in large part, to be essentially afraid to talk because they will be outrageously attacked with charges of anti-semitism -- a charge which is as radioactive as any other in our culture.
sheldon and hidden iman:
ReplyDeleteWhat does it mean to be 'anti-Israel'?
Is it anti-Israel for someone to argue that Israel's national security interests don't serve the security interests of the United States?
The shift they are trying to make happen is to shift our view and tactics to that of Israel: if they capture a soldier, blow up their hydroelectric plant and call THEM the terrorist; that is the 1% Solution. And we also must believe that Israel's interests are exactly our interests.
ReplyDeleteIf this happens, then kiss the Republic good-bye. Wasn't it Washington that warned us against "foreign entanglements"? Oh, for the day when conservatives took that tack.
prunes:
ReplyDeleteOn another note, remember when we backed the Taliban and al Qaeda because "their interests were our own"? I can't help but wonder if 15-20 years from now we will be attacked by radical Israeli gangs that we fostered back when it seemed our interests coincided.
Not quite the same thing, but go look up "U.S.S. Liberty".... Then there's the spying cases, etc. The interests of Israel, and/or the Israeli gummint of the time, are only those of the U.S. as much as they are those of the U.S. And when they're not....
Cheers,
you seem to feel it's fine to criticize the Israel lobby, accuse its members of dual loyalty, eagerness to have American soldiers die on behalf of Israel, and other nefarious, even treasonous and bloodthirsty goals
ReplyDeleteUm....who's doing that?
This is a classic case of escalation.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting topic.
Israel and the Jews can be synonymous because....
... well, because sumptimes it's handy to try to discredit your opponents with a gratuitous equation to one of the most reviled regimes in recent history. Even if you're just itching to see Israel get nuked because that's what the "Good Book" (supposedly) tells you has to happen before your Saviour-On-A-Stick returns for his Thousand Year Reich....
HTH.
Cheers,
Sheldon, I feel your pain, but honestly, you must have known in your heart of hearts that this would be coming. We can no longer simply ignore the fact that the claims made on our sympathy by the Israelis may be horribly misplaced.
ReplyDeleteThe stakes are higher every year. Blood, death and implacability on both sides, until the end of time -- this is what we're being asked to countenance. Not only countenance, but participate in.
Does it really surprise you that we would ask for a little open debate to clarify our risk? Do I care whether or not Eretz Yisrael was a divine promise? Do I really believe that Israel stood behind us in the Cold War, so that we should return the favor now -- no matter what, or who, must be sacrificed? Do I think that the aged Palestinian woman who still keeps the key to the house she was driven from in 1948 on the wall of her apartment in a Lebanese refugee camp will ever see her great-grandchildren walking again under her ancient olive trees? Will the two year-old killed in his crib in Kiryat Shmona by a piece of Katyusha rocket shrapnel ever be mourned outside his own family?
One has to ask also: is there a geopolitical answer to these questions? Does it necessarily involve a war declared by Israel and the U.S. against the entire Arab/Muslim world?
Name-calling won't help here, by either side. The questions are: what can be done, what must be done, and most of all, who will pay? Silence, and its evil twin, propaganda, are no longer of any use.
prunes:
ReplyDelete... but I just wanted to point out the vacuity of bart's "logic".
As they say in the legal world, "res ipsa loquitur". But it doesn't hurt to pile on, so good on ya.
Cheers,
But those attacks do deter many people from discussing this issue openly - just look at the much-noted dearth of discussion of this war in the liberal blogosphere
ReplyDeleteThis is just grand. There is a dearth of discussion in the Left blogosphere on EVERYTHING relating to Islamic terrorism. The one exception, of course, is if the particular incident or issue being discussed can can be used to bash Bush over the head. When it comes to the Islamic threat, one needs to (sometimes, unfortunately) turn to the Right blosphere. This is a point you know well. Crying about being cowed by Zionist pressure into silence is just pathetic. Frankly, it's somewhat shocking that you'd resort to an argument so pitiful rather than just concede the point.
And, as for Mearshimer/Walt, that report is such utter trash. It was the abject failure to meet even the minimal academic standards and intellectual honesty that doomed the paper. I've read anti-Israel arguments a million times more cogent and intellectually honest in The Nation or Counterpunch than that vile report. Even Khaled Meshal makes a more honest attempt at setting out Israel's narrative.
There is a dearth of discussion in the Left blogosphere on EVERYTHING relating to Islamic terrorism.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that there aren't daily death orgies and obsessive two-minute hate session each day, but there are other ways to discuss how the U.S. can manage the threat of Islamic terrorism besides by turning the President into a King and waging war every time the opportunity presents itself.
And, as for Mearshimer/Walt, that report is such utter trash.
It's amazing how much interest there is in an academic paper.
It's not just that their academic methodologies are shoddy. It's much worse than that. They're anti-semitic haters, right?
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ReplyDeleteI'm glad we have freedom of religion in this country. How long before those who insist that there is an "Islamic threat" take their battle to the streets. Tanks rolling down Devon avenue in Chicago is the first visual that pops to mind.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am watching in Lebanon each day is an outrage
ReplyDeleteby Robert Fiske
Will We Go to War for Israel? Israel says "Jump!"
Americans ask: "How high?"
by Justin Raimondo
BTW, I am not taking any position on what is happening in the Middle East. I probably know less facts about the situation than almost anyone on this blog.
But because I am against wars, I am posting links from other people who share my general horror about human suffering and who do know what is happening in world politics.
Frankly, I don't know why I care about human beings so much. When I think of them in the abstract, I despise almost all of them. But when I think about individual people, my heart goes out to them and I just can't help caring about them and empathizing with their own individual tragedies.
It's a dilemma....
When it comes to the Islamic threat, one needs to (sometimes, unfortunately) turn to the Right blosphere.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell, the vast majority of rightwingers know absolutely nothing about Islam or it's modern radical variants, preferring to lump all Arabs together under the "Islamofascist" label.
As a specific example, a day or two ago on this site, bart tried to claim that Ba'athists and al Qaeda were identical, which is absolute trash.
I've read plenty of rightwing stuff that couldn't even discern between Shi'ism and Sunni Islam. Most rightwingers know nothing of the history of Muslim (or for that matter Christian) fundamentalism, beyond the fact that there was some guy named "Qutb" who was apparently somewhat widely read...
You may find within yourself some need for public condemnation of terrorist acts; I feel rather that what is obviously evil doesn't need me to point it out, it's the unobvious evils that seduce good people.
Besides which, Bush is my president, he works for me, he represents me, and I'll say anything I please about him and the job he's doing.
Radical Islamic terrorists don't represent me at all. Does anyone care what I think about them?
Excellent post, badick. I'm glad you set up a blog and will be posting more thoughts like those. I'll read it as it appears you are a very measured, rational thinker.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThere is a dearth of discussion in the Left blogosphere on EVERYTHING relating to Islamic terrorism. The one exception, of course, is if the particular incident or issue being discussed can can be used to bash Bush over the head.
ReplyDeleteThat is also my experience, and so I tend to spend a lot of time at libertarian sites where they are not confined by the silly, self-imposed dictate of avoiding stating anything that "will help the other side, especially if we if condemn it."
I would suggest Reason magazine’s site, such as their blog Hit ‘n Run, and whose a contributing editor is Cathy Young.
The libertarians at Reason, in general, hold the same views about the NSA warrantless spying and the imperial presidency as Glenn (with much greater depth) fleshes out here. They are hardly Bushbots, and indeed, are quite critical of those who are. But they also don’t shy away from non-PC discussions of murderous, Islamicist theocrats. Indeed, they did a superb interview with Salman Rushdie, an interview to which I have linked here and elsewhere several times. It is just they don't long to turn the ME into a glass parking lot or to bathe in the blood of billions of Muslim religionists. Unlike, well, you can fill in the elipses....
"Now I get a steady stream of anti-Semitic screeds in my e-mail, my voicemail, and in my mailbox....
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the opposite, and none of it is from Jewish groups.
There wouldn't be room anyway, because I am getting so many of these hysterical emails from Christian Evangelists, all in big letters and caps saying why the United States has to secure some religious place in Israel (I don't follow those things) for the end-times or something to do with Christianity and to do that, we have to immediately launch a military attack against Iran after we help Israel wipe out Lebanon.
Christian charity. Gotta love it.
Suddenly Catholics are looking a whole lot more rational than these Evangelists, and a whole lot more compassionate. Many of them are into missionary type work and helping people in need. Even the Pope sounded kind of reasonable recently in his statements about the situation in the Mid-East.
The Evangelists seem to be more into fundraising to support wars of annihilation.
Do Catholics believe in these "end-times" and think it's going to take place in Israel?
Do Catholics believe in these "end-times" and think it's going to take place in Israel?
ReplyDeleteMainstream Catholic thought views the Book of Revelation as an allegory about Roman persecution ca. 70 CE. When I was in Catholic school ten years ago, and from my friends who attended Catholic universities, it was never preached that we're to focus on the "end times" or take any of that literally.
But then, I gave up Catholicism ten years ago, so who knows what's being preached now.
Do Catholics believe in these "end-times" and think it's going to take place in Israel?
ReplyDeleteI don't know but my guess is that they read this passage
"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
and took it to mean that they shouldn't meddle!
Do Catholics believe in these "end-times" and think it's going to take place in Israel?
ReplyDeleteThe large majority of Catholics do not profess to believe the end-times narrative, although there are, of course, a few exceptions. There was some Catholic speculation about the prophecy of St. Malachy which predicted that Benedict would be the 2nd-to-last pope, but...
Evangelicals take Catholic prophecies more seriously than Catholics do.
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteLibertarian. Islamic terrorism. Reason.
I confess I'm at a loss. My definitions:
Brittle. (As in T.S. Eliot's comment about Henry James: "He had a mind so fine that no idea could violate it." He meant it as a compliment. I do not.)
Red Herring. (What we call "Islamic terrorism" certainly exists, but to label it this way conceals from us what we might leaarn from understanding individual acts subsumed under an all-too generic label.)
Misappropriation of an honorable 18th Century concept. (What is in Reason is often anything but, except to secular Jesuits.)
There. That feels better. (To me, anyway.)
For those critical of Israeli policy...it is good to know how the other side debates.
ReplyDeleteHasbara Handbook - The playbook on how to fend off critics and promote the interests of Israel.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara
There seems to be a lot of discussion here about everything except the original point of Glenn's post.
ReplyDeleteTo whit: the need to openly, honestly, and comprehensively debate whether or not the US should (never mind can) become involved in this latest conflict between Israel and its neighbors.
Forget for a moment questions of moral equivalence, conspiracy theories, the influence of pro-Israel lobbies in Washington and elsewhere, anti-semitic hysteronics and the rest. Can we please confine the discussion to the straightforward debate of the issue we all know won't really happen?
I'm not trying to limit discussion here nor cut off particular poitns of view. But I'm getting a bit tired of digging through dozens of comments that retread the same barely credible arguments supporting or condemning Israel, trying to tap-dance around potential charges of "anti-semitism", and either buying or disregarding the blanket argument that this is 'our war' without much serious discussion or explanation either way.
So, can we all discuss this topic with the seriousness it deserves?
nuf said: It is long past time to discuss what Israel does with that money.
ReplyDeleteYes... like how much of it goes to manufacturing, updating, and maintaining weapons of mass destruction? I am talking, of course, of the 100 or so nuclear weapons Israel has, not to mention the ballistic missles to launch and deliver those weapons to every country in the Mideast.
And incidentially, here's a little someting that happened over the weekend:
ReplyDeletehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/i-have-just-received-these-pictures.html
Please no-one mention "colateral damage".
either buying or disregarding the blanket argument that this is 'our war' without much serious discussion or explanation either way
ReplyDeleteUnfortunatly beleif in whether our not this is "our" war in many people's minds boils down to questions of religion and we all know how condusive that is to reasonable discussion and debate.
Just ask Barbara O'Brian.....
From phd9 at 6:36pm:
ReplyDeleteUnfortunatly beleif in whether our not this is "our" war in many people's minds boils down to questions of religion and we all know how condusive that is to reasonable discussion and debate.
Okay, fine. I'd just like people to come straight out and state their reasons this is or isn't 'our war', be they based on biblical prophecy (which I personally reject) or some geopolitical framework.
At least once the reasons themselves are stated and up front, then we can move the discussion forward from there.
sheldon: an we at least forever put to bed the notion that it is "courageous" to raise the issue of the Israeli lobby's power and that this issue is never openly discussed? What a welcome relief that would be.
ReplyDeleteNot at all. Not until it has been mainstreamed and looked at from every possible pro/con angle. What you suggest is exactly what the Israel lobby would like to do. They'd like to get it tucked away somewhere where no one will ask any questions, much like the Victorian crazy aunt in the attic.
Contrary to what you suggest, however, there is the fact that Mearsheimer and Walt could not have their article published in the US. Even though the article was commissioned by a US magazine, that magazine came under so much pressure from Israeli interests that they decided not run the piece. Mearsheimer and Walt had to go to a British newspaper to get the work published.
Interestingly enough, there has been more debate about this issue in the Israeli press than in the US. Why is that, do you think? I have documented many of the articles preceding the Washington Post article that "debated" M&W's work.
The whole thing is just sad....
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon: whether or not the US should (never mind can) become involved in this latest conflict between Israel and its neighbors.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, this question is -- at least in part -- already moot. The U.S, is involved, and has been for decades. This latest situation is more fraught than any since 1973, I agree, given that Israel seems, for the first time since then, to be facing an actual military threat.
Nothing they can't remedy with sufficient force, I grant you, but if they use, or more properly continue using, sufficent force, the result will leave U.S policy in the region in even greater shambles than the Iraq war has already reduced it to.
Is it our war? Not, I would submit, as the Israelis would like to define it for us. Otherwise, you bet it's our war. If we could somehow manage to turn it into our peace, that would be even better, but in my judgment, that would mean taking Arabs and Muslims seriously, which as far as I'm able to determine, we have never done.
Actually let's review a more pertinent question...does anyone here doubt the sincerity of Israel's enemies desire for their genocide.... and are we going to allow that possibility?
ReplyDeleteI care exactly as much about dead Israelis as I do about dead Lebanese.
Don't you?
From michael at 6:42pm:
ReplyDeleteWell Hezbollah did kill seventeen Americans when they bombed the US Embassy in Beirut back in 1983...
Not to quibble, but you'll notice the small qualifier in the third paragraph of that article:
"is believed to have"
Is it good odds Hezbollah had at least a hand in the attack? Certainly.
Is it certain? No.
"Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn, thanks for directing me to Arthur Silber's site. Silber is clearly a true libertarian, and his first post explicates that Irving Kristol manifesto from The Weekly Standard that I quoted from and linked to here a few threads ago.
Something about that always makes me a little uncomfortable, declaring someone or something the "true" this or that, especially when it's an American "libertarian" we are discussing. It even makes me uncomfortable when I do it. I am a bit less uncomfortable than usual to hear Hypatia declare it WRT Silber.
Glenn I hope you caught Juan Williams' smackdown of Kristol. It was priceless.
ReplyDeleteWhen you noted Mearsheimer and Walt approvingly, I knew the discussion was over. They have been thoroughly discredited by most academics and Juan Cole is a clear partisan. You have lost my respect. But at least do your research into the Arab Lobby lead by Saudi Arabia. More money than Israel's. Give equal treatment if you have any intellectual honesty.
ReplyDeleteMichael...Well Hezbollah did kill seventeen Americans when they bombed the US Embassy in Beirut back in 1983...
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis killed 34 and wounded 173 American serviceman in 1967. Some still consider that to be an act of war, even though there is some question about the aircraft doing the strafing having any distinguishable markings.
zipfel- Emperor Hadrian named the area "Syria Palaestinia" around 135. Therefore, anyone who lived in the area from that time were "Palestinians."
ReplyDeletesince we're called the United States of America and not Turtle Island, I assume you accept that names of places and the majority of inhabitants there might change over time.
From shooter242 at 6:40pm:
ReplyDeleteFolks this is the wrong conversation. The real issue isn't whether the US will support Israel, it's how and when.
Why do I subject myself to this?
Sorry, shooter, but the issue is fundamentally whether or not the US will actively intervene in this conflict, and if it does, precisely how.
You're own mind is obviously made up. Excuse the rest of us engaging out critical reasoning with respect to the issue.
Currently it's a limited conflict, I doubt anyone expects that we will bomb Iran tomorrow. On the other hand what if Syria or Iran start sending in rockets of their own, or mass troops along their borders?
On the third hand, what if Israel engages in yet another full-throttle invasion of Lebanon, or starts sending nuclear-tipped rockets skyward?
Yes, this is a limited conflict presently, and its looking like it'll fast spin out of control worse than the Sinai front did after the battle at Chinese Farm in 1973. Sadly, we don't have an equivalent to Kissenger to fly all around doing shuttle diplomacy this time.
Actually let's review a more pertinent question...does anyone here doubt the sincerity of Israel's enemies desire for their genocide.... and are we going to allow that possibility?
You didn't both to look at the link I posted at 6:35pm, did you?
Oh, I'm sure there are elements on both sides that would dearly love to completely eliminate their opponents. Does that excuse actions on Israel's side any more than it justifies the latest round of bolivations from the powerless president in Tehran?
Back to serious discussion.
anon@7:09pm: More money than Israel's. Give equal treatment if you have any intellectual honesty.
ReplyDeletePlease cite your source for this assertion. The lobbying arm for Israeli interests, AIPAC, says on their website they are one of the most influential lobbies in Congress. Reports about how much they say they are the number 2 lobbying effort in Congress, behind AARP, I believe.
When you noted Mearsheimer and Walt approvingly, . . .
ReplyDeleteWhere did I do that?
They have been thoroughly discredited by most academics . . .
Well I guess that settles it - I know that's how I make my decisions about what to believe: by majority vote of "academicians."
I suspect quite strongly that you don't share the liberal view on most things. So are you willing to have political questions decided by majority vote of academics?
The whole point is that they are advocating a minority view - a view which typically subjects the advocate of it to mainstream scorn and stigma. The fact that "most academics" condemned it only proves that it's an unpopular view, not that it's wrong. (and I really doubt "most academics" opined on that paper).
and Juan Cole is a clear partisan.
So what? So are a lot of professors. The only point I made about Juan Cole is that he lost his professorship at Yale because of his opinions on Israel.
But at least do your research into the Arab Lobby lead by Saudi Arabia. More money than Israel's.
I don't know of anyone who doubts that the Saudis have great influence on our government. What does that have to do with Israeli influence?
anon@7:09pm: They have been thoroughly discredited by most academics and Juan Cole is a clear partisan.
ReplyDeleteYeah, so partisan that in one his recent postings Cole said Hizballah was guilty of war crimes. If that's partisan, we need more of it.
Reading this excellent post from Billmon the other day, Military Hubris, I learned something new that shocked me. I had been aware of the IRA's contact with the Nazis during WWII, but this information about the Stern Gang was a surprise...
ReplyDelete[I]n 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine, and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)."
Glenn Greenwald... I don't know of anyone who doubts that the Saudis have great influence on our government. What does that have to do with Israeli influence?
ReplyDeleteEven Rev. Moon (The Messiah) has a greater influence on our government than most Americans. Some Americans see no problem with this. I do.
yankeependragon... Why do I subject myself to this?
ReplyDeleteShooter owns some guns but has never actually shot anyone, or been shot at. He just likes to read about shots fired in anger.
Back to serious discussion.
You won't find two greater American allies, with greater mutual economic, political or social interests, than Canada and Japan. And yet for decades they do not and have not influenced American foreign policy one jot. Canada never supported the Vietnam or Iraq misadventures, and Japan has been under threat of actual WMD's from an openly hostile neighbour for many year.
ReplyDeleteI think it's fair to say Israel is one huge monkey on the back of America and an intervention is long past due.
From steve at 7:48pm:
ReplyDeleteWell, Hezbollah was behind the Khobar Towers attack in 1996, as well as the infamous bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983. That makes them, I guess, responsible for more U.S. deaths than any terrorist group aside from al-Qaeda.
Hezbollah's part in both attacks is still a subject of contention.
Quoting Nasrallah may sound serious, but we've yet to see any clear action on the organization's part.
And you realize that quote from Senator Graham actually bolsters the argument for a pull-out of Iraq and reorientation of current policy, not one for intervention in the current situation in Lebanon, yes?
Anonymous at 7:25 PM:
ReplyDeleteIf you found the Stern Gang shocking, here's another bit of relevant history which somehow rarely gets discussed.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnd you realize that quote from Senator Graham actually bolsters the argument for a pull-out of Iraq and reorientation of current policy, not one for intervention in the current situation in Lebanon, yes?
ReplyDeleteThe United States is quite capable of carrying out military operations on two fronts, but that is beside the point.
Hezbollah is a mortal enemy of the United States (as two posted references make clear), and as such we should cheer that our Israeli allies are finally taking steps to destroy their military and political infrastructure. Eliminating Hezbollah as a military force will stabilize Lebanon, weaken our Syrian and Iranian enemies, and remove a threat from our Israeli allies.
It is an action long overdue.
The thing I find remarkable is the human ability to refer to ideas and treat them as if they were individual actors. "Israel" did X, "Hezbollah" did Y, the "USA" sat back and watched and meanwhile the photos of dead children are posted on the internet but of course will be dismissed as "propaganda". These are individual people -damn it and they ALL deserve a shot at life.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to combat the groupthink that justifies all this but I do recognize it for what it is.
That's why there are particular words that grate particularly hard, among them "animals", "Islamofascists", "traitors", and everybody's favorite fallback "terrorist".
The United States is quite capable of carrying out military operations on two fronts, but that is beside the point.
ReplyDeleteFronts are so 20th century. 9-11 changed all that. There are no "fronts" in the GWOT. Haven't you been paying attention?
Something about that always makes me a little uncomfortable, declaring someone or something the "true" this or that, especially when it's an American "libertarian" we are discussing. It even makes me uncomfortable when I do it. I am a bit less uncomfortable than usual to hear Hypatia declare it WRT Silber.
ReplyDeleteI understand the criticism, and realized when I (purposely) adopted the term "true" that I was opening myself to it. Nevertheless, I stand by it in this instance.
It is not possible for a person who proclaims to be a (small "L") libertarian of the mainstream variety represented by Reason or The Cato Institute, to simultaneously embrace the neocon rantings Mr. Silber (and I here earlier) provided from Irving Kristol -- not unless such "libertarians" are deceiving themselves or others. The hugely expansive role such neocons see in both the market and in personal decisions of individuals, and their general hostility to science and many of its fruits, are antithetical to any coherent version of American libertarianism.
(Surely you would agree that if Irving Kristol came out tomorrow and insisted he was a libertarian, it would be proper to hoot in derision?)
Consider the views of Max Boot, contributing editor to the premier neocon journal, The Weekly Standard, all emphasis mine.
here:
So is "neoconservatism" worthless as a political label? Not entirely. In social policy, it stands for a broad sympathy with a traditionalist agenda and a rejection of extreme libertarianism. Neocons have led the charge to combat some of the wilder excesses of academia and the arts. But there is hardly an orthodoxy laid down by Neocon Central. I, for one, am not eager to ban either abortion or cloning, two hot-button issues on the religious right. On economic matters, neocons -- like pretty much all other Republicans, except for Mr. Buchanan and his five followers -- embrace a laissez-faire line, though they are not as troubled by the size of the welfare state as libertarians are.
And in an article I can find only behind a subscription wall, or which is not currently accessible, Boot says, that when it comes to trouble with other conservatives: [neocons'] main differences are with libertarians, who demonize “big government” and preach an anything-goes morality...
The neocon political enemy understands that libertarians are not their friends. Irving Kristol's Weekly Standard piece -- which Mr. Silber takes apart in the link I provided -- agrees emphatically.
These neocons are right. No true libertarian can stay in bed with them; they are the antithesis of libertarianism. Indeed, most are Bush supporters, criticizing him only from their neocon right. As Glenn wrote here only some ten days ago in a post titled Libertarians and the Republican Party -- Irreconcilable Differences:
Libertarians (in the small "l" sense of that word) have either abandoned the Bush-led Republicans based on the recognition -- catalyzed by the Schiavo travesty -- that there are no movements more antithetical to a restrained government than an unchecked Republican Party in its current composition. Or, like Reynolds, they have relinquished their libertarian impulses and beliefs completely as the price for being embraced as a full-fledged, unfailingly loyal member of the Bush-led Republican Party.
He is right, and so am I. No libertarian -- if that term is to have any coherent meaning -- can travel ideologically with neocons, who, again, themselves recognize us as a political enemy.
A profile of Douglas Feith, the former Undersecretary of Defense Policy, published in the May 9, 2005, issue of "The New Yorker" magazine. Couple of interesting little tidbits that caught my eye about one of the prime architects of the Iraq war:
ReplyDelete"A black-and-white portrait of Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, hangs over a green leather couch."
"Feith’s library includes a large selection of books on Zionism...."
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050509fa_fact
What if they do? Whoops, let me back up here and ask whether you think Israel should accept rocket attacks and write off the soldiers? If not, what do you suggest as an alternative?
ReplyDeleteThe last time I checked no one here was questioning Israel's right to defend itself. It has shown itself quite capable of that on numerous occasions. The question posed was what should the US response be.
dr. vandermast said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 7:25 PM:
If you found the Stern Gang shocking, here's another bit of relevant history which somehow rarely gets discussed.
Thanks for the link, Doctor.
Shooter...Excuse me, I didn't realize my saying "how and when" would be different from your "when (whether) and how". I hope that's not as far as you've gotten in your critical reasoning?
Shooter apparently thinks any American "intervention" has to "support" Israel. Maybe he should skip the critical thinking course and go back to studying remedial reading and comprehension.
The question posed was what should the US response be.
ReplyDeleteThe US response should be to intervene between the parties and act as an honest broker. This administration's failed policies have precluded the US from acting in the capacity of an honest broker between the parties in this instance.
yankeependragon... Why do I subject myself to this?
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to anymore. At least Bart presents a challenge, having trained in the law, even if he just fires blanks. Shooter can't even load his gun.
As far as I know there was no provocation, no ryhme, no reason, except maybe the ghost of some unrequited slight.
ReplyDeleteI know how the real world works. I'm just saddened by the fact that its so difficult to tell the difference between people who do bad things and people who live in bad neighborhoods.
And using labelling to marginalize entire populations just plain galls me.
From shooter242 at 8:22pm:
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, I didn't realize my saying "how and when" would be different from your "when (whether) and how". I hope that's not as far as you've gotten in your critical reasoning?
You seem to presume support will happen and the only question is what form it will take and on what timeframe. I make no such presumption and question whether support (active or passive, material or otherwise) should be given in the first place.
Again, you strongly imply the decision to support Israel is already made and the details are all that are left. I make no such presumption and await the original decision.
We'll save the debate over proportional responses for later.
I'll instead address your statement
Perhaps you could consider the possibility that when one puts their citizenry in the middle of a gun battle, some will be killed.
Those were Lebanese children, shooter, killed when their convoy was hit by Israeli aircraft. Not militants. Not gun-runners. Not jihadists. Not mercenaries.
Innocent children.
Hezbollah is a multinational network that operates throughout the region; it doesn't have 'citizenry' as you put it.
Think about that a for a bit before you even try to respond.
A clue, perhaps you think this is all Kabuki and no rockets are being fired, nor soldiers killed? Or maybe the president in Iran doesn't mean what he says, perhaps?
I could put it another way:
Does one holocaust justify another?
And its been pointed out, time and again, that President Ahmadinejad has no real power and is nothing but a public figurehead. Whatever his bolivations in public, its the words and actions of Ali Khamenei that have to be watched; and at the moment, he's proving very circumspect.
No, this isn't Kabuki or Toda Theatre. This is real war we're talking about.
Which is why you need to be very, very careful about how you tread and what justifications you use for action. Getting hysterical about Ahmadinejad is definitely not a good reason.
Hypatia @ 8:27,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever seen this?
It's amazing how over the course of history, the political parties in this country have seemed to trade places on the left-right continuum.
Be careful, Hypatia. You could be veering to the left. Or perhaps it's just that if you go far enough in one direction you end up on the side you were heading away from.
Glenn: "The fact that the administration does not intend to wage war on Iran and/or Syria doesn't mean that such a war won't occur. And if the administration has not committed itself yet to causing such a war, they sure don't appear to be shying away from it either. They surely know full well that they are playing with gasoline near a raging fire, and they appear to be indifferent to the risks, if not actively seeking them. Why that is the case, and whether it is wise, must be topics that are fully open to examination.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, you've got a number of "they's" in your comments. Other than some vague commentary, would be helpful if you pointed to something specifics by way of commentary; links; or something remotely resembling a name. This is your argument, not something we need to guess at.
- Do you refer to something speific by way of a name in the Administration?
- You talking state department; RNC; political affairs; CIA?
. . .
1. Glenn: "they sure don't appear to be shying away from it either."
This is vague. You need to be more precise.
2. Glenn "They surely know full well that they are playing with gasoline near a raging fire, and"
Need to provide something specific as to what you see unfolding. Given your litigation background, having a hard time making a case that you have a firm grasp on military affairs.
3. Glenn:they appear to be indifferent to the risks, if not actively seeking them.
- What is the basis for your assessment?
- If true, what do you propose be done different?
- Why should we believe this characterization?
- What are the risks as you see them; what is the basis for your risk assessment?
- How do you differentiate "seeking risks" in re Iran-Lebanon-Syria-Iran; and the "seeking risks" in re Iraq-Iran, as discussed with Sy Hersh?
. . .
Overall, I get the impression that you've got a conclusion (which you still haven't been clear on); if your conclusion (whatever it is) is obvious/clear, what's the point of the discussion?
If your mind is already made up, why are you bothing to blog about something you (apparently) think is obvious, and a foregone conclusion?
And if the administration has not committed itself yet to causing such a war, they sure don't appear to be shying away from it either. They surely know full well that they are playing with gasoline near a raging fire, and they appear to be indifferent to the risks, if not actively seeking them. Why that is the case, and whether it is wise, must be topics that are fully open to examination.
ReplyDeleteFor “why” that is the case we just need to Digby
I see that Rush Limbaugh is priming the base for the rapture. He's gotcher Strauss for ya, right here.
This plays perfectly into Karl's plan as well, by the way. Beating the war drum is the only card he's really got to play --- national security and foreign policy are the only issues in which the Republicans are even pulling close to the Dems in the polls. How serendipitous death and destruction always are for Republicans.
It’s the cult’s last best hope.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI find Glenn's position perfectly clear. U.S. policy, whoever is making it, has exactly the defects he states. I might add that it's never been clear to anyone who in the Bush Administration is making foreign policy, not even to his supporters.
Most people suspect, given GWB's obvious mental limitations, that he himself isn't responsible, but no one seems to know who is.
As for your demands that Glenn do this or that, why don't you just come out and demand that he turn himself into someone else -- shooter242, perhaps.
Now that would be a transformation truly calculated to frighten hysterical teenagers and skittish horses. Maybe someone ought to put in a call to M. Night Shyamalan.
Yankee...Again, you [Shooter] strongly imply the decision to support Israel is already made and the details are all that are left. I make no such presumption and await the original decision.
ReplyDeleteThat's not what I got as Chimpy frantically stuffed a dinner roll into his pie hole at the G8. All of a sudden he wants his Kofi black.
Anonymous said..
ReplyDeleteOverall, I get the impression that you've got a conclusion [...]; if your conclusion is obvious/clear, what's the point of the discussion?
[...] why are you bothering to blog about something you (apparently) think is obvious, and a foregone conclusion?
Why are you bothering to comment in the same vein? The specifics of your critique are undoubtedly accurate, but the fact that you pick at him in this way indicates you harbor a set bias as well.
shooter, you failed to mention in your last post that you didn't care about orphans, cancer patients, pollution or kittens being killed for sport. Should we read into that?
ReplyDeleteIf we follow your argument techniques we should.
In case you don't know, I'll tell you that you are not "nailing" people with your gotchas. You're just sounding petty and like a nitpicker.
Hezbollah knows you will help them.
ReplyDeleteNo...Hezbollah knows that an act of aggression will be met by a disproprtionate response and they will come out with the coveted "victim" status. The degree to which schoolyard and family conflicts (Mommy..he hit me first!) expand out into the global realm with deadly consequences continues to amaze....and depress.
Fluffy: "The specifics of your critique are undoubtedly accurate . . ."
ReplyDeleteIf we agree the questions and analysis are valid, until Glenn responds, what purpose does it to discuss the issues. Let Glenn respond.
Perhaps you cannot decide whether someone is capable of responding. Do you perceive someone has a limitation?
It remains to be seen whether someone does or does not respond to questions.
From shooter242 at 9:58pm:
ReplyDeleteHezbollah knows you will help them.
Then Hezbollah, and you, know nothing. But then I shouldn't be surprised any more by your vacuousness and idiocy.
It's pretty much the terrorist general agenda, and you are fulfilling their desires.
Actually, that would by you and yours, with your hysterics at the likes of Ahmadinejad, your quickness to pull the trigger, and your tolerance of barbarity visited upon the innocent (both young and otherwise). How many more jihadists have been made by the actions of the Bush Administration since 9/11 - convinced by founding of Camp X-Ray, the Iraqi invasion and all that has flowed from those and more that the US does indeed seek the extermination of Islam - will likely never be known or counted.
Congratulations on that, btw.
But if you can look at the pictures in that post (I notice you never acknowledged you did or did not) and simply shrug, then I truly feel sorry for you. You've thrown away what little humanity I presumed you still held.
Again, congratulations. You've become what you beheld.
I notice you avoided the question about whether Israel should accept the loss of their children and soldiers. Can I presume you'd rather not answer?
You can assume anything you like, making an ass of yourself alone in the process.
But let's talk about what Israel should accept, never mind rightly meat out.
No-one here, certainly not I, has ever even suggested Israel does not have the right to either defend itself nor respond to attacks upon its territory and citizens. Indeed, the last fifty-plus years have shown it well and fully capable of doing both, at times more proactively and punatively than wisely.
What Israel does not have the right to do is to engage in wonton military action, attacking another sovereign nation and leaving it ravaged and broken, on a pretext that while arguably just is minor in comparison to the volume and tempo of the action it takes in so-called 'response'.
In other words, a handful of short-range, low-yield rockets being launched into unspecified areas of Israel and the abduction of three soldiers hardly seems a serious enough threat to justify a forceful incursion into the already unstable region of souther Lebanon and begin what increasingly looks like an indescriminate campaign of bombing and bombardment to no discernable military or political goal.
Spare me the excuses that they're seeking to 'destroy Hamas and Hezbollah', unless you're actually suggesting this is all the opening shots of an Israeli genocide of every living thing in southern Lebanon. Otherwise all they're doing to firing off a lot of ammo into the mountains, maybe killing a lot of militants (and innocent bystanders), and convincing its neighbors the Jewish state really is run by militant lunatics.
Yes Israel has the right to defend itself and to respond to attacks. But what we're seeing now far surpassed any sense of proportional response, and looks ready to set the eastern Med aflame.
Is that right or just? You tell me.
Shooter... I notice you avoided the question about whether Israel should accept the loss of their children and soldiers.
ReplyDeleteCan I presume you'd rather not answer?
It is this shattering inability to reckon with reality that kindles in me a desire to simply turn away, to turn away so as not to witness the insalubrious spectacle of a society so etiolated as to manifest no righteous anger, but only either indifference or further rounds of self-inquisition. It is this spiritual torpor, this unconscious despondency of the national soul, in which, bewitched by the illusion that there is virtue in national self-abnegation, Britain imagines that she will manifest virtue by courting the favour of those who, if they only remain true to what they are, cannot but despise her and seek her violation, that moves me to indifference. Is there not a time to bid the fool enjoy his folly while it endures, for after that there will be judgment? - especially when the fool refuses to acknowledge the judgment? One may, perhaps, offer prayers for such an one; nothing else will be availing, except perhaps some unutterable extremity of horror.
Sorry if this was posted upthread
ReplyDeleteThe Wish is Father to the Deed
http://billmon.org/archives/002536.html
By billmon on War
The BBC has posted a transcript of the chat between Bush and Blair that was accidently captured on tape. The completely non-surprising thing about it is how inarticulate and scatter brained both Bush and Blair sound -- like a couple of dopeheads discussing their favorite recipes for hash brownies, instead of two world leaders trying to deal with a serious Middle East crisis.
I find this particularly inexcusable on Blair's part -- after all, English is his mother tongue.
But the really crucial part of the dialogue, I think, was this bit:
Blair: Look -- what does he think? (It appears from the context that the PM is talking about Syrian President Bashar Assad) He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine. If you get a solution in Israel and Palestine. Iraq goes in the right way . . .
Bush: Yeah -- he's [indistinct]
Blair: Yeah . . . He's had it. That's what all this is about -- it's the same with Iran.
This is fascinating as well as terrifying. It suggests that Bush and his faithful water carrier both really believe their own bullshit -- not just in terms of viewing Hezbollah and Hamas as the mindless tools of Syria and Iran, but also in their rosy-lensed assessments of how things are going in the Middle East these days.
Consider what Blair seems to be saying, and Bush grunting between mouthfuls of food (Yeah . . . Yeah.) These fools actually seem to think that Syria and/or Iran ordered their Hezbollah and Hamas minions to stir up trouble with the Israelis because Assad and/or the mullahs are worried that:
A.) The "Cedar Revolution" will create a strong, united Lebanon (Presumably one in which Syrian influence and Hezbollah muscle vanish into thin air.)
B.) There will be a peace settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. (Due, no doubt, to the heroic efforts of these two great humanitarians.)
C.) Things in Iraq will "go in the right way."
I mean, how much more out of touch with reality could the killer Bs possibly be? Their own wishful thinking about the consequences of their own pathetic follies appears to have left them with some wholly fantastical ideas about what motivates their enemies in the region. Either that, or they've completely bought the sugar coated lies being spoon fed them by their subordinates. My guess is that it's probably a bit of both -- creating a perfect, impenetrable feedback loop of flattery, deception and wish fulfillment.
Juan Cole says reading the transcript left him "shaken and trembling." I guess I would be too, if I hadn't already come to the conclusion that we're completely fucked. Pessimism does have it's advantages.
Still, it's hard not to be impressed with the level of delusion picked up by that treacherous microphone. I hate to violate Godwin's Law (and you all know how much I hate it) but this conversation reads, psychologically at least, like table talk between Hitler and one of his remaining puppet allies, circa the winter of 1945.
so shooter, all the people who died are human shields?
ReplyDeleteand if that's the case, sort of funny you used the term "criminally negligent" in your post.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteYes Israel has the right to defend itself and to respond to attacks. But what we're seeing now far surpassed any sense of proportional response, and looks ready to set the eastern Med aflame.
OK, you are the PM of Israel.
Rockets are raining down on your civilians.
Hizbollah has called for the destruction of your country.
The Lebanese government does not have the military forces or the will to take care of Hizbollah.
What is your "proportional" response?
This question is open to all of you critics of Israel. Don't be shy.
This should be interesting...
shooter: Spoken like a person not being bombed on a daily basis. You seem to have a facile way with other peoples lives, perhaps you should look to your own motives, before projecting them elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteHaving 500 shells per day lobbed into civilian areas for over a month? Israeli towns? No, Gaza.
What Hezbollah is doing is not right; but what Israel's doing and has been doing in Gaza has been disproportionate from the start.
Two wrongs do not make a right; Hezbollah should stop indiscrimnately raining down missiles onto towns. Israel should stop attacking known civilian areas in Lebanon but stop its own form of terror in Gaza.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteTwo wrongs do not make a right; Hezbollah should stop indiscrimnately raining down missiles onto towns. Israel should stop attacking known civilian areas in Lebanon...
Hizbollah is not stopping its missile attacks and will continue to hide behind civilians.
What do you do now, Mr. Israeli PM?
Should have and would have are games played by people sipping latte at a cafe and blogging.
Your people are being murdered now. What do you do about it?
bart(while sipping a mint julep and blogging about the rise of the new south) said... Hizbollah is not stopping its missile attacks and will continue to hide behind civilians.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you do now, Mr. Israeli PM?
Should have and would have are games played by people sipping latte at a cafe and blogging.
Mr. Israeli PM: Invade Cyprus!!
Bart... This question is open to all of you critics of Israel. Don't be shy.
ReplyDeleteThis should be interesting...
Afghanistan. The one thing they started well, then they invaded Cyprus!!!
Mr. Israeli PM: Invade Cyprus!!
ReplyDeleteThis kind of drivel is why voters don't trust the left with our nation's security.
Leave the life and death heavy lifting to the grown ups and go back to whining about whatever some silly blogger on the right did or did not post...
“…Or, like Reynolds, they have relinquished their libertarian impulses and beliefs completely as the price for being embraced as a full-fledged, unfailingly loyal member of the Bush-led Republican Party. “
ReplyDeleteYour either/or limitation misses the mark. Yes, Schiavo was bad. But libertarians can fellow-travel nicely with neo-cons, if that coalition defeats the liberals. Actually, it is closer to the bone than that. Liberals mean to get us all killed. Compared to that, the neo-cons limitations are rather minor. Your filter, Hypatia, keeps you from appreciating this truth.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteMr. Israeli PM: Invade Cyprus!!
This kind of drivel is why voters don't trust the left with our nation's security.
This is precisely the meaning of irony. Bush does not know the meaning of irony and apparently neither do you. You do not invade country B when you are attacked by a faction residing in country A. This is why you won't be picking up any seats in 2006 or going to keep that address on Pennsylvania avenue in 2008.
Leave the life and death heavy lifting to the grown ups and go back to whining about whatever some silly blogger on the right did or did not post...
Has Deb Frisch become one of you? How ironic?
George Will in 2000: Thank God the adults are back in the White house!
George Will today.
I don't think George "will" ever live that remark down. It will haunt him like your idiotic comments here, Bart, until the day you both die.
Robert Fulton said...
ReplyDelete12:52 AM
Wherein Fulton tries to re-invent the steam boat.
You are going to regret parading around wearing your ass for a hat in here, Bob.
This is great news. Being anti-American (an Islamist, actually)I am pleased to see the US led down the primrose path by neocon intellectuals (ha ha "intellectuals"; I slay me.) The last superpower is not for long left in this world, and that's a good thing. Soon you'll be a regular nation, like Brazil. That's not so bad.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteWhat Israel does not have the right to do is to engage in wonton military action, attacking another sovereign nation and leaving it ravaged and broken, on a pretext that while arguably just is minor in comparison to the volume and tempo of the action it takes in so-called 'response'.
I think you meant "wanton", but the visual is amusing. Not the subject, heavens no.
In other words, a handful of short-range, low-yield rockets being launched into unspecified areas of Israel and the abduction of three soldiers hardly seems a serious enough threat to justify a forceful incursion into the already unstable region of souther Lebanon and begin what increasingly looks like an indescriminate campaign of bombing and bombardment to no discernable military or political goal.
Israel occupied southern Lebanon for a decade or so to 'pacify' it, set up their own puppets there, and otherwise did a great job of showing the U.S. that invading Iraq would not be an example ofparticularly edjoomakated or rational thinking (which PNAC and the maladministration eedjits proceeded to ignore). Israel pulled out of Lebanon. Time to try the ol' "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" thing, I guess.... <*SIGH*>
Cheers,
I hate to be caught saying this, but what I take to be bart and shooter's main point here is one that I fully agree with.
ReplyDeleteThere is no "proportional response" in war, once you or your enemy have decided on war. In ancient times, when populations were small, and a negligible number of casualties by modern standards could mean the difference between the survival of your tribe and its annihilation, conflicts were savage, but also symbolic, like dogfights. Once it was clear who would prevail, and honor was satisfied, the losing side fled -- to sire more children, harvest the crops and move on, whatever was necessary.
Slave-based economies and the division of labor they permitted led to larger wars, savagery visited on larger portions of the population, and more devastating outcomes. The Romans, for example, could afford to spend months, even years, laying siege to a place like Masada, and when they succeeded, nothing could stop them from killing or enslaving everyone in the fortress except the suicide of its inhabitants.
In modern wars, whole populations -- hundreds of thousands, millions -- can be annihilated, and the victors are free to consider the moral implications only later, when victory is assured.
Once you've been attacked, seen the mangled bodies of your friends, or your children, no weapon is too terrible to wield. Fewer people were killed in the Pearl Harbor attack then on 9/11, yet it ended with the fire-bombing of Tokyo, and the nuclear incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Relatively few people in the U.S. today think that this response to Pearl Harbor was "disproportional." A pity, maybe, but there it is.
That is why war is always a terrible choice, whatever the provocation. Once begun, it can't be over till it's over, no matter what tragedies the participants have to endure.
And when is a war over? In modern times, if World War II is an example, only when one side is utterly destroyed -- has no shelter, no food, no water -- and every exhausted, lice infested survivor of the losing side has a gun pointed at him.
If we use Kristol's World War III as an example, we can only speculate, but I think it likely that the asymmetry which produces devastating air attacks on one side, and IEDs, suicide bombers, and what have you on the other, could lead to a war that does indeed last for decades (as it already has in Palestine proper), unless some other factor intervenes -- economic collapse in the U.S., intervention by Iran or Russia, or even the detonation of an "Islamic bomb" in a U.S. city.
Where I disagree with bart and shooter is that I still believe we (the U.S.) have a chance to make peace. Our injuries have so far not been as severe as those of the principal parties to the conflict, leaving us a window of opportunity to think rationally if we're willing to do so.
If the U.S. were to set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, actually be willing to play honest broker between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and make clear to the Israelis that we'll refuse to back them further if they do not truly negotiate openly, with no preconditions other than their own survival, the rabbit may still be pulled out of the hat.
Politically, this course of action would be painful, perhaps impossible. But if it isn't tried, even a liberal can see what is coming next. I take no pleasure in saying it, but what is coming next is blood, atrocities, revenge, and a coarsening of all that we, in a society which has been sheltered from the worst consequences of war for 150 years, have come to expect as our birthright.
That's the truth as I see it. I don't look forward to this with the glee that bart and shooter sometimes seem to in their pronouncements here, but like them, I think talking of proportional responses to a people at war, whatever their current military advantages, is simply nonsense.
shooter242 is clueless about history:
ReplyDelete[yankeependragon]: Yes Israel has the right to defend itself and to respond to attacks. But what we're seeing now far surpassed any sense of proportional response, and looks ready to set the eastern Med aflame.
Is that right or just? You tell me.
Everything else has been tried. It's all that's left.
Invading southern Lebanon has been tried as well. That didn't really work out all that well either. Well, maybe they can attack Syria and some other Arab country. Ummm.... Oh. Right. They did that too.
Cheers,
William,
ReplyDeleteThat's a series of old and outmoded paradigms, and I am the first to admit that when you fight, you fight.
Have you read this?
this is the book about which they will all be saying, "I read your book".
HWSNBN is slow of reading:
ReplyDelete[cynic librarian]: Two wrongs do not make a right; Hezbollah should stop indiscrimnately raining down missiles onto towns. Israel should stop attacking known civilian areas in Lebanon...
Hizbollah is not stopping its missile attacks and will continue to hide behind civilians.
What do you do now, Mr. Israeli PM?
HWSNBN ought to try reading for comprehension: "Two wrongs do not make a right." Not that hard to understand if you make an effort. Hell, I bet that HWSNBN was taught that this is the Prime Directive of his Gawd in Sunday School all the years he was [ostensibly] growing up ... or at least they tried to teach him that.
Cheers,
robert fulton:
ReplyDeleteLiberals mean to get us all killed.
If by "us" you mean RW eedjits, you may find some of the sentiment that this would be a blessing. As for me, I think I'll simply let Darwinian selection do its thing:
Be all that you can be.
Operation Yellow Elephant needs you. Now go.
Cheers,
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI'm old and outmoded myself, so it stands to reason that my paradigms would be as well.
Yes, I'm familar with Billmon and van Creveld. Both are very smart, and very, very clear-eyed. I admire them both enormously, but I can't defer to them here. In my view, any of the outcomes either they or I have described are still possible.
We shall see what we shall see. I hope our policy makers prove as intelligent and as humane in the end as these two thinkers, but I admit that I personally doubt it.
William.... Once you've been attacked, seen the mangled bodies of your friends, or your children, no weapon is too terrible to wield. Fewer people were killed in the Pearl Harbor attack then on 9/11, yet it ended with the fire-bombing of Tokyo, and the nuclear incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Relatively few people in the U.S. today think that this response to Pearl Harbor was "disproportional." A pity, maybe, but there it is.
ReplyDeleteWilliam,
This is where the "proportional response" comes into play. Hezbollah cannot yet vaporize Israel. Israel can vaporize a few people. Perhaps 200 nukes with some having stand-off delivery capability. One is even a MIRV. I do not know what their yield is. I assume they are tactical nukes but that means they are equivalent to or larger than Fat Man or Little Boy, about 20 Kilotons or greater.
Japan had the greatest naval fleet on the planet at the time of Pearl Harbor, and armies and air forces to match. Hezbollah doesn't dominate the air space or have a blue water navy.
Tim Cavanaugh is reporting that The War in Iraq is Over. Cuz the Iraqis are just sayin' no.
ReplyDeletehidden imam writes: Don't over-reach, Greenwald.
ReplyDeleteIt's Mr. Greenwald to you. If you cannot treat the host with the respect he has earned then why don't you find another place to hang out which welcomes angry, insulting, disrespectful people like you.
Some people need a history lesson, so that they can better discuss the issues with a little knowledge:
ReplyDeleteTake the time to read it, you might learn something.
(This summary, which is factual, is from israelforum.com)
In the 1920s, among their final acts as victors in World War I, the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East out of the ashes of the empire of their defeated Turkish adversary. In a region that the Ottoman Turks had controlled for hundreds of years, Britain and France drew the boundaries of the new states, Syria Lebanon and Iraq. Previously, the British had promised the Jewish Zionists that they could establish a "national home" in a portion of what remained of the area, which was known as the Palestine Mandate. But in 1921 the British separated 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan, and created the Arab kingdom of "Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power. Abudllah's tribe was Hashemite, while the vast majority of Abdullah's subjects were Palestinian Arabs. (Today Jordan is still 70% palestinian)
In 1948, at the request of the Jews who were living in Palestine, the United Nations voted to partition the remaining quarter of the original Mandate to make a Jewish homeland possible. Under the partition plan, the Arabs were given the Jews' ancient home in Judea and Samaria - now known as the West Bank. The Jews were allotted three slivers of disconnected land along the Mediterranean and the Sinai desert. They were also given access to their holy city of Jerusalem, but as an island cut off from the slivers, surrounded by Arab land and under international control. Sixty percent of the land allotted to the Jews was the Negev desert. Out of these unpromising parts, the Jews created a new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time, the idea of a Palestinian nation, or a movement to create one did not even exist.
At the moment of Israel's birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90 percent of the original Palestine Mandate - in Transjordan and in the UN partition area, but also in the new state of Israel itself. There were 800,000 Arabs living in Israel alongside 1.2 million Jews. At the same time, Jews were legally barred from settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestinian Transjordan, which eventually was renamed simply "Jordan."
The Arab population in the slivers called Israel had actually more than tripled since the Zionists first began settling the region in significant numbers in the 1880s.The reason for this increase was that the Jewish settlers had brought industrial and agricultural development with them, which attracted Arab immigrants to what had previously been a sparsely settled and economically destitute area.
Instead, the Arab League - representing five neighboring Arab states - declared war on Israel on the day of its creation, and five Arab armies invaded the slivers with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish state. During the fighting, according to the UN mediator on the scene, an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes to escape the dangers. They planned on returning after an Arab victory and the destruction of the Jewish state.
As a result of the annexation and the continuing state of war, the Arab refugees who had fled the Israeli slivers did not return. There was a refugee flow into Israel, but it was a flow of Jews who had been expelled from the Arab countries. All over the Middle East, Jews were forced to leave lands they had lived on for centuries. Although Israel was a tiny geographical area and a fledgling state, its government welcomed and resettled 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries.
The Palestinians and their supporters also claim that the Middle East conflict is about the Palestinians' yearning for a state and the refusal of Israel to accept their aspiration. This claim is also false. The Palestine Liberation Organization was created in 1964, sixteen years after the establishment of Israel and the first anti-Israel war. The PLO was created at a time the West Bank was not under Israeli control but was part of Jordan. The PLO, however, was not created so that the Palestinians could achieve self-determination in Jordan, which at the time comprised 90 percent of the original Palestine Mandate. The PLO's express purpose, in the words of its own leaders, was to "push the Jews into the sea."
Fast Forward 50 years from 1948 (past '56, 6 day war, '73, '82), and it becomes quite clear, this is an ongoing independence war. Israel is still fighting for its right to exist.
anonymous: Japan had the greatest naval fleet on the planet at the time of Pearl Harbor, and armies and air forces to match. Hezbollah doesn't dominate the air space or have a blue water navy.
ReplyDeleteAll true, and relevant, of course. But in my view, there are two keys here: asymmetry, and slow-motion.
Hizbullah can't go toe to toe with the IDF, just as the Sadr militia can't go toe to toe with the U.S. The advantage they have is that they can choose the time and place of the attack, and they can attack undefended targets. That's the asymmetric part. What they are doing now may seem to negate this natural advantage, but I suspect that it has a political, or rather psychological, purpose. They've demonstrated that they're a force to be reckoned with, for one thing, and for another, IDF retaliation has destroyed Lebanon, not Hizbullah.
Moreover, the new Lebanon was the pride of U.S. Middle Eastern policy, a beacon to our Arab friends. Now it's junk, and Hizbullah has wrecked it. Win-win, as they say.
Once an apparently impoverished population has organized itself for war, rather than consumption, it can harry its perceived enemies for decades, striking when it's strong, retreating when it's weak. Think the Thirty Years War, or the Hundred Years War in Europe. Hell, think Vietnam. That's the slow motion part.
The Palestinians have been at this for almost three generations, and they are still at it. They're at war, pure and simple, as are their enemies, the Israelis. Tel Aviv may resemble Los Angeles, but when the sirens blow, all the young men and women disappear almost by magic.
They know how to do this; the U.S. does not, and doesn't want to learn. If GWB doesn't put it back in his pocket and zip up, I fear we are in for unprecedented ugliness in the years to come.
What happened to this country? I thought it was founded on live and let live, not live like I do or else. This being able to debate on Israel's actions over the last 40 years is just a symptom of the infighting in this country of those who want to control and those who just want to live their own lives.
ReplyDeleteThanks, J.G., you're right -- it was needed, even if the lens might need a little correcting for the opposite view.
ReplyDeleteJ.G.:
ReplyDeleteIt would be convenient if the Arab states took the Palestinians in, assimilated them, of course -- convenient for Israel. The Arab states, on the other hand, have no earthly reason to afford Israel this convenience, as they view a Jewish state in Palestine as illegitimate, and like Jordan, they do not want their own states held hostage to a possibly uncontrollable irredentism on the part of the Palestinians.
You shouldn't let your allegiances blind you to other possible interpretations of the facts you have so obviously mastered.
Gee. I can't believe it. I read the post by Billmon that an anon had put on this thread (thank you) and that just about seals it for me: Billmon is one of the few most astute writers currently on the scene, and putting Billmon's analysis next to that transcript would have to put any rational person in a state of utter amazement. Obviously the other people chosen to formulate the foreign policies of this nation are equally stupid and equally delusional. The guys "behind" everything are smart and evil as sin, but who are they? It's not the Feiths and the Libbys or the Addingtons. I have an idea but can't prove it so I won't put it forth.
ReplyDeleteThe Wish is Father to the Deed.
It's virtually impossible to believe such a conversation really happened....
I accept Billmon's second supposition, that neither of these men has the least idea of what is really happening, and it appears they are merely convenient stooges/puppets probably chosen for the very fact that they are such unintelligent and careless caricatures of human beings.
But even knowing that, reading that transcript is a real jaw dropper.
I've visited several liberal blogs, and I've yet to find any condemnation of Israel's actions and their mass murder of civlians. Just more bullshit about American pundits and their warmongers.
ReplyDeletePlease, if you really believe yourselves to be liberals, then please condemn the war on Lebanon!
WT:
ReplyDeleteMy point was more along this line:
There is no need to take them in, because eventually they believe they will wipe the jews into the ocean...
I have another question though for anyone still active on this thread:
Should it not be in the best interest of Egypt's, and Jordan's, and SA's, and Iran's and Qatar's and the PLO and all of Israel's mideast neighbors to make sure that Israel is not destroyed?
If the Jews are gone, who will deflect the attention of thier citizens to thier country's lack of voting rights, women's rights, a free press, indepedent branches of government, any sort of jobs not related to oil, corruption, lack of education, lack of health systems?
Who will they blame then? The people will then overthrow the governments..
jg:
ReplyDeleteIsrael is a liberal democracy.
Oh. So we only support (and defend with military sales and even direct assistance if it ever comes to that) "liberal democrac[ies]". Guess we get to decide which democracies are worthy of support.
Little nit of mine; Hamas won the last election in the territories, despite the U.S. efforts to keep Fatah (as the lesser of two evils) propped up. No one suggests that this was a particularly unfair election. Same goes for Iran. Elections put in power folks we are not too fond of. How about Venezuela? We agitated for a coup there, and have probably ensured that Chavez will last for quite some time. So what's all this crap about "democracies"? Are "democracies" only good to the extent that we approve of the results?!?!? Is that what makes a "liberal democracy"? What do you mean by "liberal democracy"? Tell me; I'm curious....
And while you're at it, care to explain the "downfall" of Rabin?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers (from someone who used to be a supporter of Israel; must have been that Leon Uris's Exodus version of history, you know the one with the cute little refuge, Sal Mineo, and the intrepid Irgun commander Paul Newman ... there's been a lot of sadness all around and a pox on both their houses)
william timberman [to "jg"]:
ReplyDeleteYou shouldn't let your allegiances blind you to other possible interpretations of the facts you have so obviously mastered.
Was that snark? Hard to tell in this most difficult dispute.
Cheers,
Arne:
ReplyDeleteNo, it wasn't actually. Much of what he says about how many, where they went, who attacked who, etc., corresponds to what I think I know.
Where I disagree, of course, is in the interpretation. Israel is a liberal, democratic state, just as he says; it's not a lie.
Then again, so was Alabama in the days of Bull Conner. Etc., etc. If I'd really wanted to snark, I'd have reminded him that another point of comparison between the U.S. and Israel is what happened to the Iroquois, the Algonquin, the Cherokee, the Choctaw, the Lakota....but you get my drift.
AL:
ReplyDeleteI was just trying to put up a theory as to why Israel's and America's interests are often alligned. But it is just a theory (free nations share the same intersts), and like other economic or IR theories, often proved wrong.
I dont know what you mean by the "downfall" of Rabin, but I believe he was killed by relegious extremists.
And the "direct support" of Israel is really just a subsidy of the US Arms Industry (all the money is required to be spent on US arms, not that I or Israel has a problem with that) US support is important to Israel, but keep in mind Israel won a few wars without the support or any assistance of the US.
One last note to anonymous before I head off to bed.
ReplyDeleteThe reason Israel stays its hand with respect to the deployment of its nuclear weapons has, in my view, nothing to do with proportional warfare, but has everything to do with the fact that many of its likely targets are less than 100 miles away.
As I see it, Israel's nukes are like the "family atomics" in Dune, a warning to anyone who still believes that he can push the Jews into the sea that if that should ever look likely to come to pass, the Jews will take every last one of their enemies with them.
This is the best reason I can think of, the only reason I can think of, that a good liberal should support the U.S. guarantee of Israel's existence without qualification.
William,
ReplyDeleteThat's a series of old and outmoded paradigms, and I am the first to admit that when you fight, you fight.
I think William Timberlane is brilliant in a whole different way than most others on this blog are intelligent. Sort of a marriage between a world class mind, lyrical writing ability and a rich accumulation of the type of in depth classical education in the liberal arts that people used to acquire in the old days before a knowledge of technology became the only ticket to ride and knowledge just for the sake knowledge became increasingly obsolete.
So I'm curious, WT. Have you ever revealed anything more about youself here that I might have missed? Is that your real name? Are you a professional writer? It would seem astounding if you are not.
Once in a while I don't get the ultimate conclusion of an argument of yours, but I think that is my own limitation and not your inability to convey what you are concluding after offering your observations.
Am I wrong in thinking that your long post in which you "agreed" with bart and shooter was directed more at the psychology of human beings in situations of war and less on the particular tactics, success rate of same, or ability to adapt to new circumstances in "modern" transformed types of warfare?
I didn't really think Billmon's post contradicted anything you wrote, as your critic seemed to think, but I would hardly call you more cynical than Billmon. If anything I'd still put you in the category of a "dreamer", said not critically but wistfully.
I imagine you don't see yourself that way. Just you wait:)
To supplement Billmon's "take" on the conversation between Bush and Blair, this appeared on a blog called "From Beirut to the Beltway."
ReplyDeleteMoral equivalence shit
13 people from two different families died under the rubble of their houses in the village of Aitaroun. At least a dozen Lebanese soldiers who were never given the chance to defend their country died under the rubble of their barracks. (Source: Aljazeera TV) Civilian death toll so far: 217.
In Israel, 12 civilians died so far in retaliatory attacks by Hizbullah.
Is it the same? Not according to John Bolton:
US Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts".
"It's simply not the same thing to say that it's the same act to deliberately target innocent civilians, to desire their deaths, to fire rockets and use explosive devices or kidnapping versus the sad and highly unfortunate consequences of self-defense," Bolton said.
It's all "shit", if you ask Bush.
“The irony is, what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush told Blair over bread and butter.
Bush's idea is for criminals to get a dictator to get a bunch of fanatics to “stop doing this shit.” A ceasefire sucks.
Bush also seemed to complain about U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan wanting an immediate ceasefire to stop the violence between Israel and Hizbollah.
"I don't like the sequence of it," Bush said. "His attitude is basically ceasefire and everything else happens."
Before the shit talk, Tony Blair begged Bush to agree to deploy international forces "that can stop bombardment coming into Israel." The idea got tossed around between world leaders, and Israel has already rejected it.
Still, John R. Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, raised skeptical questions in New York. Israeli officials expressed opposition and the idea seemed unlikely to be accepted by Hezbollah, which operates in southern Lebanon with little interference from the Lebanese government.
.. Supporters said any new force would have to be more robust than UNIFIL. Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi suggested it would require at least 10,000 troops and a broad mandate. Chirac said it should be charged with enforcing a 2004 Security Council resolution ordering Hezbollah to disarm.
It seems there no is no escaping this shit, unless you're a foreigner living in Lebanon.
Finally, got milk for UNIFIL? Israel destroyed the Liban Lait factory in the Bekaa valley today (Aljazeera TV, LBC). Liban Lait supplied UNIFIL and the rest of the country with milk and dairy products. UNIFIL used to get their milk from an Israeli company until Liban Lait won the contract. Here's what got destroyed. It's not shit, it's dairy.
Liban Lait represents the largest investment ever made in Lebanon in the field of farming and dairy processing. The project spreads over an area of 504,000 sqm sq in the heart of the Bekaa valley, at Hosh el Sneid.. It includes a farm, a fully auto mated processing plant and a wide distribution network. It is one of the most modern facilities in its field. The whole operation focuses on quality standards, regularity, and continuity.
Good morning Lebanon. Good night America.
Posted by Abu Kais at 11:15 PM | Permalink
But for another slant, which I actually think may be the right one:
ReplyDeleteMo Rocca
07.17.2006
Bush's S-Bomb (51 comments )
Waking up this morning and turning on the TV to see a British gentleman leaning over a boorish American, the Brit listening patiently as the American talked through his food, my first thought was "Why the hell is CNN running clips from that crappy 80s sitcom Mr. Belvedere?"
Of course it was Tony Blair, not Mr.
Belvedere. Mr. Belvedere would have politely but firmly corrected the president on his misuse of the word irony. (Even Bob Uecker, the Bush character in Mr. Belvedere, could tell you that there's nothing ironic about having to ask Syria to restrain Hezbollah.)
Maybe Blair is more like Cadbury to Bush's Richie Rich. Of course we all wish Blair were as wise as Alfred and Bush as capable as Batman.
In any case, the newsworthy(?) expletive, an encore to Bush and Cheney calling New York Times' Adam Clymer an asshole during 2000, was no accident at all. Bush knew the mic was on. But we're supposed to think it's an authentic moment, that we've heard the real Bush. This somehow gives the opinion expressed more power. It's pretty clever - and it works. (Loads more people, including me, are now asking what the hell Kofi Annan intends to do.) It's the best way to strike a hit against opponents like The New York Times and United Nations.
Huffington Post.
Easy to be duped in life....
It's not just a question of parsing definitions. Things change with time.
ReplyDeleteI generally sided with Rabin's Israel's policies at the time of the Oslo accords.
The rise of the Right Wing in Israel has changed my opinions and I now thing Israel is (and has been) following the wrong course.
Things are not frozen in time; one might have supported Israel then, but not today.
jg...(This summary, which is factual, is from israelforum.com)
ReplyDeleteFactually accurate summaries can be found at that view it from another perspective. All "factual summaries" tend to leave out inconvenient facts.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteThis kind of drivel is why voters don't trust the left with our nation's security.
You tell them, Bart!
Leave it to us Republicans to always fight the last war and always campaign for the last election!
We haven't had a new idea in over 80 years! They won't be new 80 years from now, but you moron's grandkids won't know that!
From shooter 242 at 11:42pm:
ReplyDeleteSpoken like a person not being bombed on a daily basis.
Which is precisely why I'm refusing this line of discussion. Neither shooter, Bart, myself, arne, nor anyone here either lives under those conditions nor within that culture nor have to deal with the entrenched interests and attitudes and ideologies driving it all. Idle speculation as to how Israel 'should' react to current circumstances on our part therefore is little more than an intellectual exercise, and a futile one. There is nothing we can do here that will actually affect or influence the situation.
Shooter closes with
In other words why not do something constructive for a change?
To which I respond why don't YOU? I'm sure the IDF could use some more volunteers right now, given they're already calling up their reserves. I'm sure there are plenty of Lebanese and Palestinian children in need of retroactive abortion right now, and you've already demonstrated a clear lack of both moral outrage and qualms at the situation.
Whatever Israel's next step will be its own choosing and based upon considerations beyond us. What is at issue here is what will the US do next? That is what we should be debating.
How about we actually discuss that instead of a load of navel gazing?
I hope you are not seriously suggesting that Shooter and Bart leave their posts. Who will defend Christmas from the Islamo-fascists?
ReplyDeletePartisan terrorist sympathizer Juan Cole:
ReplyDeleteI cobbled the Bush-Blair exchange on Israel and Lebanon, accidentally caught at the G8 on mike, together fromWaPo and ABC News.
(...)
So, the whole blow-up is Syria's fault, for putting Hizbullah up to making mischief. No reference to Israeli actions in Gaza. No reference to, like, the wholesale destruction of Lebanon by the Israeli air force. And no blame for the Lebanese government of Fouad Siniora. And Bush thinks that Nasrullah of Hizbullah takes direct orders from Damascus. And he thinks that if Bashar al-Asad orders Hizbullah to stop firing its little katyushas and give back the two Israeli soldiers, everything will suddenly settle down.
It is an astonishingly simple-minded view of the situation, painted in black and white and making assumptions about who is who's puppet and what the Israeli motivations are. Israel doesn't appear as a protagonist. It is purely reactive. Stop provoking it, and it suddenly stops its war.
Since Israel is just being provoked and has no ambitions of its own, in this reading, it is useless to begin with a ceasefire. That treats the two sides as both provoking one another. Here, only Hizbullah matters, so you lean on Syria to lean on it, and, presto, peace breaks out.
It is a little window into the superficial, one-sided mind of the man, who has for six years been way out of his depth.
March of Folly
ReplyDeleteBy PAUL KRUGMAN
Since those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it — and since the cast of characters making pronouncements on the crisis in the Middle East is very much the same as it was three or four years ago — it seems like a good idea to travel down memory lane. Here’s what they said and when they said it:
“The greatest thing to come out of [invading Iraq] for the world economy ... would be $20 a barrel for oil.” Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corporation (which owns Fox News), February 2003
“Oil Touches Record $78 on Mideast Conflict.” Headline on www.foxnews.com, July 14, 2006
“The administration’s top budget official estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion,” saying that “earlier estimates of $100 billion to $200 billion in Iraq war costs by Lawrence B. Lindsey, Mr. Bush’s former chief economic adviser, were too high.” The New York Times, Dec. 31, 2002
“According to C.B.O.’s estimates, from the time U.S. forces invaded Iraq in March 2003, $290 billion has been allocated for activities in Iraq. ... Additional costs over the 2007-2016 period would total an estimated $202 billion under the first [optimistic] scenario, and $406 billion under the second one.” Congressional Budget Office, July 13, 2006
“Peacekeeping requirements in Iraq might be much lower than historical experience in the Balkans suggests. There’s been none of the record in Iraq of ethnic militias fighting one another that produced so much bloodshed and permanent scars in Bosnia.” Paul Wolfowitz, deputy secretary of defense and now president of the World Bank, Feb. 27, 2003
“West Baghdad is no stranger to bombings and killings, but in the past few days all restraint has vanished in an orgy of ‘ethnic cleansing.’ Shia gunmen are seeking to drive out the once-dominant Sunni minority and the Sunnis are forming neighborhood posses to retaliate. Mosques are being attacked. Scores of innocent civilians have been killed, their bodies left lying in the streets.” The Times of London, July 14, 2006
“Earlier this week, I traveled to Baghdad to visit the capital of a free and democratic Iraq.” President Bush, June 17, 2006
“People are doing the same as [in] Saddam’s time and worse. ... These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.” Ayad Allawi, Mr. Bush’s choice as Iraq’s first post-Saddam prime minister, November 2005
“Iraq’s new government has another able leader in Speaker Mashhadani. ... He rejects the use of violence for political ends. And by agreeing to serve in a prominent role in this new unity government, he’s demonstrating leadership and courage.” President Bush, May 22, 2006
“Some people say ‘we saw you beheading, kidnappings and killing. In the end we even started kidnapping women who are our honor.’ These acts are not the work of Iraqis. I am sure that he who does this is a Jew and the son of a Jew.” Mahmoud Mashhadani, speaker of the Iraqi Parliament, July 13, 2006
“My fellow citizens, not only can we win the war in Iraq, we are winning the war in Iraq.” President Bush, Dec. 18, 2005
“I think I would answer that by telling you I don’t think we’re losing.” Gen. Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, when asked whether we’re winning in Iraq, July 14, 2006
“Regime change in Iraq would bring about a number of benefits for the region. ...Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart, and our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced.” Vice President Dick Cheney, Aug. 26, 2002
“Bush — The world is coming unglued before his eyes. His naïve dreams are a Wilsonian disaster.” Newsweek Conventional Wisdom Watch, July 24, 2006 edition
“It’s time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be the commander in chief for three more critical years, and that in matters of war, we undermine presidential credibility at our nation’s peril.” Senator Joseph Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut, Dec. 6, 2005
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now.” Representative Tom DeLay, Republican of Texas, on the campaign against Slobodan Milosevic, April 28, 1999
Anonymous said...Mr. Israeli PM: Invade Cyprus!!
ReplyDeleteBart: This kind of drivel is why voters don't trust the left with our nation's security.
Anonymous: This is precisely the meaning of irony. Bush does not know the meaning of irony and apparently neither do you. You do not invade country B when you are attacked by a faction residing in country A. This is why you won't be picking up any seats in 2006 or going to keep that address on Pennsylvania avenue in 2008.
I didn't ask you for ironic critique, I asked you for a plan of action in the face of a military attack.
Your utter inability to face that reality and provide a plan of action is why I have no fears about 2006 and 2008.
Juan Cole (whom no one should listen to because he is a partisan terrorist sympathizer)...
ReplyDelete... So, basically, the Palestinians and the Lebanese are screwed. The Lebanese might not have been in such a vulnerable situation if they had not kicked out the Syrians, though the Syrians were there in 1982 the last time Israel invaded.
That is why there is terrorism in the Middle East. The Israeli occupation of the Occupied Territories has been barbaric and intolerable. It produced Hamas. The Israeli occupation of South Lebanon was barbaric and intolerable. It produced Hizbullah. A wise Great Power can walk back such bad situations, as the US did in Europe and Japan after World War II. Unwise Powers get stuck with the Tar Baby.
But terrorism is a weapon of the weak and should not be over-estimated as a deterrent for Great Powers. Mostly they see it as a cost of doing business, and even where the Powers suffer from it, it has the advantage of rallying home populations behind militaristic policies.
At some point the Europeans may find a way to step in. The elements of an eventual resolution of the current Israeli war on Lebanon are becoming clear in international diplomacy. Italian PM Romano Prodi of Italy is already thinking about how to round up 10,000 UN peacekeepers to insert in the Lebanese south as a buffer between the Israeli army and Hizbullah. Russia agrees and is willing to participate.
Chirac and Blair are also on board with this plan, which will go to the UNSC from the G8 summit.
My advice: don't send the blue helmets unless you authorize them to shoot back when attacked...
From anonymous at 9:45am:
ReplyDeletePartisan terrorist sympathizer Juan Cole:
That's Professor Cole to you.
And precisely how does noting an unscripted exchanged between Bush and Blair, which merely demonstrates the former's complete cluelessness of the situation, make one of the most vocal and knowledgeable experts in the region a "partisan terrorist sympathizer"?
Bart...I didn't ask you for ironic critique, I asked you for a plan of action in the face of a military attack.
ReplyDeleteYour utter inability to face that reality and provide a plan of action is why I have no fears about 2006 and 2008.
A military attack? Is that what you call it? I'll worry about Israel when they are being invaded by a superior force. As far as your fears, Bart... I won't worry about Israel and "terrists" (although right now we are probably under greater threat from "a message" from al-Qaeda than at any time since 2001, due in part to backward unsophisticates like yourself and your hypothetical B movie script substitutes for informed and cogent foreign policies) and you don't worry about the elections. You've already lost them so what good would it do you to worry?
From anonymous at 10:09am:
ReplyDeleteJuan Cole (whom no one should listen to because he is a partisan terrorist sympathizer)...
I trust you're being ironic here.
It's important to see the neo-cons as only one side of a triangle of interests on the right who put Israel's needs above America's. Equally disturbing is the influence on this White House of those fundamentalists who truly believe Jesus will come back when the last Palestinian is driven out of Israel. Karl Rove, who probably doesn't care a fig about Israel or Jesus's return, makes up the third side, in his on-going effort to divorce American Jewish support from the Democrats. It's a very worrisome combination.
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult to express opposition to Israel's agressive policies without feeling and sounding anti-semitic. I applaud you for writing an excellent essay that achieves that aim.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom anonymous at 9:45am:
That's Professor Cole to you.
When the Whigs called Jackson a jack ass, he took the jack ass as the symbol of the Democratic party.
How Rovian of him.
Karl Rove, who probably doesn't care a fig about Israel or Jesus's return, makes up the third side, in his on-going effort to divorce American Jewish support from the Democrats. It's a very worrisome combination.
ReplyDeleteIf 9/11 changed anything, it's that Rovian political tricks are now transparent and largely self-destructive. They are so 9/10.
Karl Rove, who probably doesn't care a fig about Israel or Jesus's return, makes up the third side, in his on-going effort to divorce American Jewish support from the Democrats. It's a very worrisome combination.
ReplyDeleteNo it is not.
It is only difficult to express them without being accused of anti-semitism by people who have no interest in honest debate. That is Glenn's point, and as I suggest, that just isn't working anymore. Now they have to stomp their feet and bluster about past elections, like Bart.
You keep campaigning for those past elections, Bart. it's fun to watch.
It has been fifty posts since I challenged those who call Israel's response to Hizbollah "disproportionate" to come up with an alternative plan of action.
ReplyDeleteNothing.
It is easy to criticize, but brutally hard to rule, during a war.
Israel has tried the path of withdrawal and peace with Lebanon and received a greatly up armed Hizbollah with 13,000 rockets with which they are attacking Israel proper.
Israel can no longer pass off as harmless rhetoric Hizbollah's statements that their goal is to destroy Israel.
Thus, there is no reason any longer to believe in a political solution with Hizbollah. Israel is left with war.
Israel cannot hope to win a final military victory through the air. Air power can degrade an enemy, but not defeat it.
If Israel wants to remove this threat permanently, they need to launch a ground invasion of South Lebanon, engage Hizbollah, destroy and disarm them.
Then, and only then, Israel should gradually hand over control of Southern Lebanon to a combination of NATO (not UN) and Lebanese Army troops who have the military power and mandate to engage Hizbollah in combat if they attempt to return. The UN has proved worse than useless in Southern Lebanon in the past.
The end result of such a military operation is not only eliminating Hizbollah, but to serve as a warning to any other militias doing Iran's bidding that the costs of serving as cannon fodder with be very high.
Eyes Wide Open:
ReplyDeleteYes, it's my real name, and no, I'm not a professional anything. I do think that what we call psychology, what makes people do what they do, shouldn't be forgotten when we talk politics, that's true. Very Important People don't wear ermine to distinguish themselves from us these days, but they do like to pretend that they don't have a psychology. Ain't true, ain't true at all.
As for the rest, well.... It's been a while in America since the vox populi has risen above the din, but Glenn, Billmon, Atrios and the others have actually managed to make that a reality. All credit to them. I thank, you, EWO, for the kind words, but individual voices aren't the point here, I think. It's the demos in democracy that matters.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteIt has been fifty posts since I challenged those who call Israel's response to Hizbollah "disproportionate" to come up with an alternative plan of action.
Nothing.
Which is an obvious untruth. You were answered and didn't like the answer. It was a one word answer and perhaps it was too complex for you, you backwards buckaroo.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteHave I told you lately that you have the most vacuous,obsequious and unctuous shit-eating grin of any half-assed shyster I have ever seen? You'd need a new picture for your website if your current client pool were mostly hayseeds and wingnuts.
Anonymous:
ReplyDeletePerhaps you would like to repost one of these "plans of action" which I allegedly overlooked...
bart:
ReplyDeleteCalling my comments nothing now, are you ;-)
See 1:15 a.m., paragraph 10. Honest, I did that one 'specially for you.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteLook! Over there! Donut!
Mmmmm! Good donut! Mmmmm! Paste!
Contemporary American Political Debate FINAL EXAM
This exam will be 50% of your final grade. Read the paragraphs below, and answer the essay questions that follow. This is open book.
—————————————————-
For opining that “Israel is making a strategic mistake by over-reacting to Hezbollah’s provocations,” and for noting that Israel’s interests are not identical to America’s, conservative Gregory Djerejian has been declared an “appeaser” and a member of The [center] Left by renowned political thinker Hugh Hewitt.
For noting that bombing his pro-Israeli Lebanese friend out of his house would appear to be an ineffective way of stopping terrorism, War on Whatever supporter Michael J. Totten is told to stop “bitching” and that he and his friend should “grow up”.
Apostate movement conservative Andrew Sullivan, for the crime of not hating liberals enough, is declared “a dishonest, hyperemotional, narcissistic, self-serving he-bitch.”
————————————————————–
Question 1: How does this point to a heartening increase in civility in our political discourse?
Question 2: What clearly distinguishes this from any sort of “a purge,” or some other “hidden agenda” of the online right? Be specific.
Question 3: Why is this not blogofascism, nor “the stuff of thuggery and fascism”? Compare and contrast.
Question 4: Why are these events fundamentally unnewsworthy?
You have 30 minutes.
From Bart at 10:28am:
ReplyDeleteIsrael can no longer pass off as harmless rhetoric Hizbollah's statements that their goal is to destroy Israel.
Of course it can, given the Hezbollah organization has neither the numbers nor sufficient ordinance to "destroy" Israel. Hence these nuisance raids that cause low-level damage and undermine the average Israeli's sense of security along the borders.
The problem with your little scenario is that we basically saw the same thing play out back in 1982, except of course that the enemy back then was the PLO. Just look how well that turned out.
And incidentially, I responded to you at 9:03am.
anonymous ["jg"?]:
ReplyDeleteI was just trying to put up a theory as to why Israel's and America's interests are often alligned. But it is just a theory (free nations share the same intersts), and like other economic or IR theories, often proved wrong.
Yeah, I got theories too, theories fer sale. No, you can't open the box before you buy....
I dont know what you mean by the "downfall" of Rabin, but I believe he was killed by relegious extremists.
Oh, yeah, that's right! He was killed by the ERW nutzos there.... You know, the kind that have been in general ascendancy in the last decade in the Israeli gummint...
And the "direct support" of Israel is really just a subsidy of the US Arms Industry (all the money is required to be spent on US arms, not that I or Israel has a problem with that)...
That is true, but that's not all of the story.
... US support is important to Israel, but keep in mind Israel won a few wars without the support or any assistance of the US.
True in a limited sense. It takes a while for cutting grants or support to take effect. And there's no doubt that the Israeli defence industry has been quite diligent and adaptable. The Kfir fighter was reverse-engineered (with improvements) from the French Mirages they had. They have been busy stealing whatever secrets they can from the U.S. (and other countries, most probably), an approach that is only prudent if you think you might be yourself against the world and you want to prepare for that (but that shouldn't prevent you from maybe seeing if there's something you can do so that you won't end up in an "us against the world" situation...)
There's lots of reasons that the U.S. has been the strongest and most consistent supporter of Israel over the years, some of them good ones, and some of them -- if not "bad" -- at least misdirected.
We can't act as a peace broker there when we are so strongly identified with one side. Maybe we don't want to act as a peace broker there, but in that case we shouldn't be surprised when the damn thing blows up continuously (and neither should Israel). We can sit and think about which side is the better "liberal democracy" and which should have our support for other reasons (Armageddon, anyone?), or we can leave such judgemets to the principals themselves and instead concentrate more on what is in our long term best interests and what it is that we can and should pursue from a moral and political basis. And on the latter, honest people can disagree. But I'd submit that what we have been doing hasn't been all that successful except for those that have been selling military hardware.
Cheers,
Here, Bart. Go read some comic books and let the adults talk. Take your little friends Shooter and Robert Fulton with you and share the milk and donuts with them. Be a good little buckaroo and run along.
ReplyDeleteGo, Arne, go.
ReplyDeleteArne: just how does such an approach ("when there's no other option, do the 'unthinkable'") differ significantly from that of the Palestinian suicide bomber?
ReplyDeleteBut just as a FWIW, there's no chance that even Israel's stockpile of nukes could "take every last one of their enemies with them".
Too true. "Every last one" may be hyperbole now, but not by much. As for the future, it's been a while since we've had a peek at what's cooking in the Israeli weapons labs, so who knows? Which is kinda the idea, isn't it?
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteFactually accurate summaries can be found at that view it from another perspective. All "factual summaries" tend to leave out inconvenient facts.
Kind of what I was hinting at too. A three hundred word synopsis of the "facts" on a blog can hardly substitute for thosands of years of reality, even if one tried to be as fair as possible in distilling it down. And distilling it down to numbers leaves out the fact that each one of those numbers is an individual human being, each with their own particualr situation and affected in their own personal way.
Cheers,
Your utter inability to face that reality and provide a plan of action is why I have no fears about 2006 and 2008.
ReplyDeleteBecause everyone knows that committing 150,000 of our troops in Iraq was just what was needed to pacify the Middle East. Everyone of course is seeing how that worked out.
At least Israel is responding to actual self defense needs rather than chasing phantom WMD's. And unlike your wishful thinking, no dems are going to complain. Because they recognize the difference between self defense and ignorant aggression.
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeletebart: Calling my comments nothing now, are you ;-)
See 1:15 a.m., paragraph 10. Honest, I did that one 'specially for you....
If the U.S. were to set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, actually be willing to play honest broker between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and make clear to the Israelis that we'll refuse to back them further if they do not truly negotiate openly, with no preconditions other than their own survival, the rabbit may still be pulled out of the hat.
I did read your post. Although we often disagree, I enjoy reading your measured and reasoned observations.
However, I didn't include you among the "proportionality" critics and your paragraph above addresses a suggested outcome between the Palestinians and Israel, not a plan of action to deal with Hizbollah in Lebanon.
BTW, Iraq has nothing at all to do with negotiating or not negotiating with the Palestinians. The current peace plan known as the "road map" was formed during the Bush Administration.
The main problem is a lack of negotiating partner on the Palestinian side. Palestine is ruled by a terrorist gang with the announced goal of destroying Israel and which has been pouring missiles into Israel from Gaza.
I fear there is no good outcome there during our lifetimes.
HWSNBN has a long history of not learning the lessons of the past:
ReplyDeleteIsrael has tried the path of withdrawal and peace with Lebanon and received a greatly up armed Hizbollah with 13,000 rockets with which they are attacking Israel proper.
I'd note that the Lebanese border has been quite silent for most of the time since the Israelis last pulled out.
If Israel wants to remove this threat permanently, they need to launch a ground invasion of South Lebanon, engage Hizbollah, destroy and disarm them.
Ummm, this approach has been tried before. We had Shatila and Sabra too.
Cheers,
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 10:28am: Israel can no longer pass off as harmless rhetoric Hizbollah's statements that their goal is to destroy Israel.
Of course it can, given the Hezbollah organization has neither the numbers nor sufficient ordinance to "destroy" Israel. Hence these nuisance raids that cause low-level damage and undermine the average Israeli's sense of security along the borders.
You would not be saying this if it were Canada pouring missiles into your neighborhood, killing your family and destroying your home - even if Canada did not have a chance in hell of actually destroying the US as a whole.
The problem with your little scenario is that we basically saw the same thing play out back in 1982, except of course that the enemy back then was the PLO. Just look how well that turned out.
Actually, Israel achieved their goal of cleaning out the PLO. The problem with Hizbollah was dealt with by withdrawing into Israel in favor of a UN force and this is the result.
I suggest cleaning out Hizbollah and handing it over to the Lebanese Army reinforced by NATO, which knows how to fight. No UN.
And incidentially, I responded to you at 9:03am...
Idle speculation as to how Israel 'should' react to current circumstances on our part therefore is little more than an intellectual exercise, and a futile one. There is nothing we can do here that will actually affect or influence the situation.
This is a plan of action for Israel?
You prove my point.
As JG explains,the settlement of Israel by European Jews and the resulting displacement of the indigenous population is really just the last existing example of European colonialism.Equally persuasive "facts",albeit from the native perspective,may be found at the website of the Middle East Research and Information Project.
ReplyDeletebart: However, I didn't include you among the "proportionality" critics and your paragraph above addresses a suggested outcome between the Palestinians and Israel, not a plan of action to deal with Hizbollah in Lebanon.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Iraq has nothing at all to do with negotiating or not negotiating with the Palestinians.
Yes, this is the core of our disagreement, I think. We may assert that these issues are not connected, but our assertions don't make it true. Ask any Muslim anywhere whether or not they're connected, and although each may differ on the details, fundamentally their answer will be yes. They have their GWOT too, after all.
I think we should take them at their word. I don't think there's a military solution short of genocide. I suspect many Israelis would agree.
"No good outcome in our lifetimes." Sadly, this may be so. On that, we do agree.
william timberman:
ReplyDeleteGo, Arne, go.
Ummm, where?
Cheers,
Jay C said...
ReplyDeleteBart sez: It has been fifty posts since I challenged those who call Israel's response to Hizbollah "disproportionate" to come up with an alternative plan of action.
Nothing.
OK, here's one: Maybe Israel should have concentrated their attacks more closely on Hezbollah itself, and gone just a little bit out of their way to reassure the Lebanese Government (you know, those "Cedar Revolution" folks so
lauded by the blogosphere a while back) that their attacks were NOT a general assault "Lebanon" itself.
I don't see the factual basis for your claims.
Israel announced to Lebanon that it was attacking Hizbollah and interdicting transportation out of the country to keep its soldiers from being moved to Syria or Iran.
The only variance from that plan of which I am aware was an attack on a Lebanese military radar which the Israelis claim illuminated their ship and guided in a Hezbollah missile.
But, now, rather than taking any steps towards enlisting ANY sympathies the Lebanese might have entertained towards Israel's goals of neutering the Hezbollah threat, Israeli attacks have 1) Made sure that the Lebanese people feel mortally threatened by Israel (a foreign Air Force bombing one's capital will tend to do that)...
Mortally threatened? Israel leveled the Hizbollah HQ, the home of the Hizbollah leader and punched some holes in the air port runway to keep anyone from flying out. The biggest fallout has been to the Lebanese tourist industry.
and 2) Made sure that the Government of Lebanon (that Beacon of Democracy) looks nicely impotent to do anything about anything. Which of course, will [sarcasm] do wonders to stabilize the region [/sarcasm]
The Lebanese government was shown to be impotent when a terrorists militia in its territory started a war with Israel.
Arne:
ReplyDeleteHere, dammit. You're on fire today, if I may say so, and I thought a little attaboy (or girl, if your handle is one of those nom de plume misdirection thingies) was appropriate.
From Bart at 11:42pm:
ReplyDeleteYou prove my point.
And you prove mine. I'm simply more conscious of my own limitations and those of the US.
Feel free to continue daydreaming and walking into walls as you do.
You would not be saying this if it were Canada pouring missiles into your neighborhood, killing your family and destroying your home - even if Canada did not have a chance in hell of actually destroying the US as a whole.
As I noted, such attacks undermine Israeli's sense of security along its borders. Such 'senses' however are a poor reflection of reality and can lead to the most ill-advised reactions (as we are now seeing play out).
In any case, what reason would Canada have to launch missiles at us in the first place? Indeed, is it "Canada" launching missiles, or some 'resistence group' upset at having "Canada's" borders deliberately violated and their people subject to attack and displacement by an arrogant, bullying neighbor? In that case wouldn't some manner of retaliation be both called for and perhaps even justified?
Your metaphors are getting weaker and weaker, Bart. I'd suggest you quit trying to justify this mess before you embarrass yourself further.
To Glenn--What does Saudi influence in the US have to do with Israeli influence, you say? It gives context. If the Saudi or combined Arab influence is greater in dollars than Israels, one can see a bigger picture.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, Egypt receives an equal or great share of US money to buy arms. Putting something in context is necessary for an honest discussion, which claim to want. By showing bias, you weaken all your arguments. After reading your comments on Israel, I started to look at your other pieces differently. Of course, where we agree, like with the disingenuous Specter, I will still skim your analysis. But now I cross reference it with someone else and sometimes, I just look for someone else to analyze it. You've lost credibility with me because you are not intellectually honest.
Yale was looking for a contempory Arab scholar...Juan Cole hasn't written a peer journal reviewed paper in years and his speciality is another subject completely, the Bahai faith. He has tenure at Michigan but his current scholarship doesn't exist and he was never a scholar with regard to that which he writes in his blog. I dislike Juan because he too never presents the other side honestly. Nor do you. You act more than a propaganda organ, not as a place to gain information without bias. An honest discussion would include the vast ways the Sauidi's have been influencing our government in terms of the money spent on lobbying and funding all manner of academic chairs and institutions. I'm not going to do the research for you in terms of the exact numbers...but you sure fail to mention CAIR and all the lobbying firms working for Saudi interest. Intellectual dishonesty has a way of chasing away the thoughtful people and keeping only the radical. Until I really started reading your blog, I had no idea of the anti-semitism and lack of even handedness. Even in the NSA issue, where I agree with you, now I wonder what you left out--like explaining what the others on the committee we thinking. I agree Bush has hijacked the constitution. I especially like Professor Epstein's later article on signing statements. And Epstein is considered Conservative.
At any rate, I won't be showing up here too much, the quality of the discussion is second rate...except for Bart....and it looks like he's gone as well. Once people discover the discussion isn't intelligent, you'll just be left with the 23% discussed in Dean's book.
Farewell. My guess is this one sided Israel discusion will hurt your numbers. But then again, I don't know your numbers, nor did I know before a few days ago, who your followers were. I'm disappointed
I was looking for intelligent analysis not ignorant rhetoric..and the sole citation of Mearshimer and Walt in support of your thesis said everything. Why don't you analyze that article for us like you analyze cases...keeping in mind the heavily foot noted part. Let's see how intellectually honest you are in doing that.
From Bart at 11:50am:
ReplyDeleteThe biggest fallout has been to the Lebanese tourist industry.
No, Bart. This was the biggest "fallout":
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/i-have-just-received-these-pictures.html
Any excuses that don't involve the terms 'collateral damage' or 'human shields'?
william timberman:
ReplyDeleteI thought a little attaboy (or girl, if your handle is one of those nom de plume misdirection thingies) was appropriate.
Like you, I don't go anonymously (much to the dismay of my fiance). I think that those who have a belief in their thoughts and words should feel that it's worth attaching their name to them. It goes both ways; putting your name to it adds personal veracity, and if your thoughts are worth anything to others, it should add to other's estimation of you as a person as well. I'm willing to take that risk.
It goes without saying that in today's political and social world, there are potential downsides to stepping out from anonymity too, and I can't fault anyone that makes the opposite choice, but I've always (for the last fifteen years, certainly) been open about who I am.
Cheers,
PS Sheldon and Hidden Iman elevate the discussion as well as Bart...but I'd be curious to hear from them why they are here with such a clearly hypocritical and anti semitic group. The tone is set by Glenn and his motives are clear and disingenuous...because there is no real discussion. Just one sided talking points. It's amazing how similar the far right and far left are. Except the far left never wins, except in Venezuela. And the result is the same...loss of freedom and free press, corruption, dictatorship
ReplyDeleteanonymous has his/her feathers ruffled:
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to do the research for you in terms of the exact numbers...but you sure fail to mention CAIR and all the lobbying firms working for Saudi interest. Intellectual dishonesty has a way of chasing away the thoughtful people and keeping only the radical.
Ummm, hate to point it out, but saying that the Saudis also have a big hand in influencing U.S. gummint policy doesn't negate what Glenn was saying.
If you were "thoughtful", I'd have hoped this would have occured to you.
FWIW, I seem to recall that Glenn did have a post on the Dubai ports controversy too. Glenn doesn't have to tackle all subjects (even related) at the same time.
Why so prickly?
Cheers,