Like a bad satire of The First Two Rules of The Fight Club, neoconservatives used to vehemently deny that there even was such thing as "neoconservatism," even going so far as to smear anyone who used the term as being anti-semitic. But with every aspect of their foreign policy in shambles, and due to (an understandable) fear that they will be blamed for these disasters, neoconservatives are assertively coming out of the closet -- for self-defense reasons if no other. They are insisting that neoconservatism hasn't failed, but rather, it has been failed, by those who lack the necessary resolve, courage and brutality to do the dirty work that has to be done. In short, they are demanding more war, more militarism, and more barbarism, and are claiming that the reason for our foreign policy failures is because -- thanks to the Chamberlian-like cowardice of virtually everyone other than them -- we don't have nearly enough of all of that.
Bill Kristol yesterday complained in The Weekly Standard that the Bush administration is getting pushed around by Iran, Syria, North Korea and even that dove-ish General Casey, who wants slowly to withdraw from Iraq. Because of this collective weakness, our enemies "must be feeling even less intimidated," and as a result, the lines drawn by American foreign policy are no longer drawn in warrior red, but instead are weak, effeminate "pink lines and mauve lines." Kristol has a long roster of other countries on whom we have to wage war, or at least credibly threaten to wage war, and our cowardice and lack of resolve is responsible for every failure, from Bush's political collapse at home to anti-American animosity around the world:
But hey, we're in sync with the EU-3 and the U.N.-192. And our secretary of state--really, the whole State Department--is more popular abroad than ever. Too bad the cost has been so high: a decline in the president's credibility around the world and sinking support for his foreign policy at home.
A few weeks ago, Michael Rubin lamented in this magazine that Bush's second term foreign policy had taken a Clintonian turn. But to be Clintonian in a post-9/11 world is to invite even more danger than Clinton's policies did in the 1990s.
To neoconservatives like Kristol, Americans have abandoned the President and the U.S. has lost credibility around the world because we have been insufficiently militaristic and belligerent. We haven't threatened and invaded enough countries, and we are too eager to leave Iraq. To underscore the claim that the Bush administration's failure is a lack of commitment to neoconservative principles, Kristol even hurls the ultimate insult: Bush has become "Clintonian" in his foreign policy because he is too weak and eager to negotiate with the long list of countries on whom we need to wage more war.
Whether coordinated or not, neoconservatives are swarming in droves to voice this same blame-assigning complaint -- that their policies are failing not because they were so misguided, but because the country, and even President Bush, lack the spine and the heroic neoconservative-warrior courage necessary to see them through. In a despicable column widely hailed by neoconservatives -- John Hinderaker, for instance, admitted that it "says out loud what many have been thinking about 'our prisoner problem' in the wake of Hamdan, Abu Ghraib" -- Ralph Peters argued in The New York Post that our biggest mistake has been detaining people rather than putting bullets in their heads. The column, headlined "Kill, Don't Capture," argues that the detainees we capture are "living vermin" who should be "executed promptly, without trial":
No more Guantanamos! Every terrorist mission should be a suicide mission. With our help.
We need to clarify the rules of conflict. But integrity and courage have fled Washington. Nobody will state bluntly that we're in a fight for our lives, that war is hell, and that we must do what it takes to win.
Our enemies will remind us of what's necessary, though. When we've been punished horribly enough, we'll come to our senses and do what must be done. . . . The ultimate act of humanity in the War on Terror is to win. To do so, we must kill our enemies wherever we encounter them.
Only tough neoconservatives like Peters and Hinderaker are strong and courageous enough to do what needs to be done. The real problem of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo is not that we are mistreating terrorist suspects, including many who have been proven to be innocent. It's that we allow our Muslim enemies to live at all. The only real way to end all of these irritating, whiny controversies about whether the U.S. is violating the core ideals which it has long advocated is to stop taking prisoners and just summarily execute them all instead.
Pushing this theme of excess American weakness even further, The New York Sun yesterday published an admirably honest editorial entitled "Bring Back the Neocons," which argues that American foreign policy is failing becasue we stopped listening to warrior-genuises like Richard Perle, Doug Feith and Scooter Libby. As a result of America's failures to live up to the demands of neoconservatism, we have become weak and ineffectual:
So look where President Bush's decision to sideline the neoconservatives has gotten him. Instead of worrying about America, Iran now holds the upper hand, choosing which U.N. officials will inspect it as America begs Tehran to accept an offer of negotiations and "incentives" that include civilian airline parts. North Korea is as belligerent as ever, test-firing medium range missiles. Iraq's capital is a bloodbath of sectarian violence. Israel is under fire from a Hamas state in Gaza. Russia and Communist China are blocking American action at the U.N. Security Council. . . .
The Sun complains that we are working too closely with the United Nations, that we have caved into the "softer line" urged by the State Department, and that we have been too cowardly in confronting the evil nations of the world. But there is still time to rectify those errors by returning to the glorious neoconservative aggression which has served this nation so well:
But time makes it ever more clear that the right strategies going forward are those offered by the neoconservative camp. Mr. Bush has time to turn things around, and, if he truly has the freedom agenda ingrained on his soul, he'll know where to turn to rectify the errors of the "softer line" . . . .
Writing in New Republic, Lawrence Kaplan similarly laments that the real cause of the disaster and failure in Iraq isn't that we embarked upon the invasion and war which Kaplan so urgently craved, but that we now lack the resolve to do the hard, dirty work to get the job done.
Neoconservativsm is rarely defined but its central tenets are, by now, quite clear. At its core, neoconservatism maintains that the greatest threat to America is hostile Muslims in the Middle East, and the only real solution to that problem is increased militarism and belligerence, usually with war as the necessary course of action. Our mistake has been excessive restraint, a lack of courage, and a naive and cowardly belief that measures short of war and all-out aggression are effective in dealing with this problem. This threat is not just uniquely dangerous, but unprecedentedly so, such that Islamic extremists render prior American ideals and principles -- both foreign and domestic -- obsolete, and only radically more militaristic approaches have any chance of saving us from destruction at their hands.
This is the neoconservative mentality -- the bloodthirsty, militaristic, largely authoritarian world-view -- which has been driving not only our foreign policy since the September 11 attacks, but also the bulk of our most controversial domestic policies undertaken in the name of fighting terrorists. Over the last five years, neoconservatism has been the central force of American political life, and it has resulted in a fundamental ideological realignment. Far more important than one's views on traditional matters of political controversy is the extent to which one supports or opposes neoconservative theories.
Throughout the 1990s, one's political orientation was determined by a finite set of primarily domestic issues -- social spending, affirmative action, government regulation, gun control, welfare reform, abortion, gay rights. One's position on those issues determined whether one was conservative, liberal, moderate, etc. But those issues have become entirely secondary, at most, in our political debates. They are barely discussed any longer. Instead, what has dominated our political conflicts over the last five years are terrorism-related issues -- Iraq, U.S. treatment of detainees, domestic surveillance, attacks on press freedoms, executive power abuses, Iran, the equating of dissent with treason.
It is one's positions on those issues -- and, more specifically, whether one agrees with the neoconservative approach which has dominated the Bush administration's approach to those issues -- which now determines one's political orientation. That is why so many traditional conservatives who reject neoconservatism-- the Pat Buchanans and Bob Barrs and George Wills and a long roster of military generals -- have broken with the Bush administration. And it is also why so many so-called traditional liberals -- the Ed Kochs, The New Republic, and Joe Lieberman -- have become some of the administration's most vocal supporters and reliable allies. Individuals who have traditionally conservative views on those 1990s issues are considered "liberals" by virtue of their opposition to the administration's neoconservative agenda.
More than anything else, this ideological realignment is what accounts for the intense passions ignited by the Joe Lieberman Senate seat. Despite his history as a life-long Democrat and a "liberal"on the predominant 1990s issues, Joe Lieberman is a pure neoconservative, which now matters much more. On the predominant issues of the day, his political comrades are Bill Kristol, Lawrence Kaplan, National Review, The New York Sun, and Dick Cheney.
Those who are most supportive of Lieberman and angry about the challenge he faces are people like David Frum and David Brooks. Why would hard-core Republican neoconservatives be so emotionally attached to defending Democrat Joe Lieberman? Why do pro-Bush, highly conservative Republicans such as blogger Mark Coffey proclaim themselves to be "huge fans" of Lieberman? Because far more than he is a Democrat or a "liberal," Joe Lieberman is a neoconservative and therefore -- on the issues that matter most -- is their ideological and political compatriot. In the 1990s, Joe Lieberman's positions on the dominant issues of the day may have rendered him "moderate to conservative," but on the issues that matter most now -- in light of the ideological realignment we have had in the wake of 9/11 -- he is nothing of the sort. He is a neoconservative, and therefore the political enemy of those who oppose that philosophy. Why would opponents of neoconservatism possibly support the re-election of a neconservative?
Much of the criticism directed at the challenge to Joe Lieberman is based on the premise that dissatisfaction with Lieberman is driven merely by one little issue - Iraq. But that argument is at once both factually false and absurd. Lieberman is supportive of the neonconservative agenda almost across the board. And this ideological conflict, far from being one little issue, is really the issue, and Joe Lieberman is on the other side, politically and ideologically, from those who are opposing his re-election. He has even adopted the neoconservative rhetoric of equating criticisms of George Bush with undermining American interests and national security. What could be more legitimate than urging the defeat of an elected official who has enthusiastically embraced and promoted a disastrous and destructive philosophical approach to the most significant foreign and domestic issues our country faces?
Whether the U.S. will continue to follow the increasingly militaristic and authoritarian approach advocated by neoconservates is the predominant political question we face. More than anything else, one's views on that question are the primary determinant of one's political orientation. And anything which fuels a political resolution to that fundamental ideological conflict, such as the Lieberman challenge is doing, is something which ought to be encouraged by anyone who believes in democratic debate.
When you stack so many neoconservatives in the same column, they certainly do glow malevolently.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, you close with this:
"Whether the U.S. will continue to follow the increasingly militaristic and authoritarian approach advocated by neoconservates is the predominant political question we face. More than anything else, one's views on that question are the primary determinant of one's political orientation. …"
That's what's scary. Our military is overextended and exhausted in the midst of failing operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, with our allies tiptoeing away, and the neoconservatives think we need to whack a few more wasp's nests. They're crazy, and I'm sure they recognize the logic of what they are proposing: The only way to up the military ante at this point is more air attacks, and the only way to protect our troops on the ground from retaliation is to show that we are the most brutal, vicious power on the face of the earth. They want to play with some nuclear toys.
Why they want to see mushroom clouds in the Middle East is beyond me, but that's where they are headed, and they know it.
How ironic that the very regime that the US despised so much because of the brutality, is exactly the one that they want to install here. Caught stealing, cut off a hand. Caught speaking out against the government, ship them out to a foreign country never to be heard from again and tortured.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of the whole knee-jerk, flag-burning mindset. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ1GTXO0U14
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking strictly empirically, how close is neo-conservatism to fascism? In other words, if the neo-cons got everything they wanted in both domestic and foreign policy, would we then be living in a fascist state? Or, in asking this, am I greatly overestimating the neo-cons' threat to liberty?
I'd love to see you devote a post to this question. Certainly, many people have likened the neo-cons to fascists, and I am often tempted to do it myself. I'd like to know if you think that's a fair comparison, or an irresponsible smear.
Glenn... They are insisting that neoconservatism hasn't failed, but rather, it has been failed, by those who lack the necessary resolve, courage and brutality to do the dirty work that has to be done. In short, they are demanding more war, more militarism, and more barbarism, and are claiming that the reason for our foreign policy failures is because -- thanks to the Chamberlian-like cowardice of virtually everyone other than them -- we don't have nearly enough of all of that.
ReplyDeleteDolchstoßlegende or Dolchstoss.
This has been predicted as coming for awhile. It happened with Vietnam. It's an old story and a story is all it is.
Great analysis Glenn...you hit the nail on the head....the only thing that matters to this authoritarian regime is terrorism...domestic issues and civil rights be damned......
ReplyDeleteIt is high time the failures of the neoconservative movement is brought to light by the corporately controlled media....
Your analysis also answers my question as to why everyone from Coulter to David Brooks is all of a sudden a Joe Lieberman fan.....you are right there are no more liberals and conservatives....just those who are neocons and those who are not....
There's not enough brutality in the world to do what these people want. That's the essential blindness. It just won't work, because there are limits to power.
ReplyDeleteIf you willfully ignore those limits, you will find yourself in a very bad situation: having exercised the power without restraint and without success, you have engendered only enemies and squandered your resources. Sound familiar?
It's not an accident that all our enemies (Iran, DPRK, etc) are emboldened. It's not because we were insufficiently "resolute"; it's because in acting stupidly, we have left ourselves with no resources with which to deal with them.
Bad ideas generally come to bad ends. What else can you say?
Glenn, you really nailed the reasons for opposing Lieberman. I hope some in the media will read your post, as it has become increasingly annoying that they characterize his opponents as one-trick ponies, concerned only with Iraq. We are also concerned about Iran, Syria, and N. Korea. Can anyone doubt the neocons will agitate for action in those countries after November? The fewer Liebermans in office at that time means less of a chance of a widening war in the ME.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that puzzles me? Where are the charges of anti-semitism with regards to the opposition to Lieberman? Why the delay? Are they saving it as some kind of trump (race) card? That is one sure way of shutting everybody up. Liberals hate to be called racists, no matter how scurrilous he charge, and I'm afraid the fight will be over once that happens.
Another thing, and I hate to bring this up, but Lamont came across in the debate as nervous, weak-kneed, and wishy-washy- the very sort of Dem progressives are lamenting of late. Even if Lamont wins the primary, which is not a sure thing by any means, Lieberman will only split the dems and allow the Repub to win, or he'll get enough Repub votes to win anyway. Progressives putting all their eggs in the Connecticut basket are, I'm afraid, in for a depressing November. I hope I'm wrong.
Please don't call it "the Joe Lieberman Senate seat." It only reinforces the frame that we are trying to take away something that by right belongs to him. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Connecticut.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
Certainly, many people have likened the neo-cons to fascists, and I am often tempted to do it myself. I'd like to know if you think that's a fair comparison, or an irresponsible smear.
Glenn's review of John Dean's new book may help answer the question for Glenn, whom I expect may be more comfortable calling neocons
"authoritarian" rather than "fascist". Fascism is a rather loaded and overused word and few people agree on a universal definition. One can see fascist trends and tendencies in the conservative movement in this country long before the advent of the neoconservative movement. I certainly can, and again, it depends on how you define fascism.
When you have the dumbest and the weakest leading America, unable to govern or provide leadership, what else can they do but to bomb, burn, and kill innocent people to achieve their malevolent goals? The question for me is how long will Americans, and the world at large, tolerate these madmen?
ReplyDelete"Who are they to sit in judgment of other people--especially, when all they want are the resources of the land of those people."
ReplyDeleteThis is something I'd like to see you delve into, Glenn: What is the Neo-con motivation beneath their philosophy? Is it really about star spangled freedom, liberty, and rightous hegemony as they preach, or is all their idealism merely thinly veiling a lust for old fashioned imperialism or, worse, naked barbarism?
Sure is a lot of verbage to say that joe is a neocon shill and schmuck?
ReplyDeleteGlenn, would it be more persuasive to be brief? No democrat with any brains needs to read "War and Peace" to see the hypocracy and contempt joementum has for his constituents.
Please don't call it "the Joe Lieberman Senate seat." It only reinforces the frame that we are trying to take away something that by right belongs to him. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Connecticut.
ReplyDeleteI really doubt that anyone who reads my post is going to have the idea reinforced that Joe Lieberman has a divine entitlement to that Senate seat. I realize that discussions of "framing" and such are all the rage, but, more often than not, they disintegrate into meaningless angst over petty semantics.
Glenn's review of John Dean's new book may help answer the question for Glenn, whom I expect may be more comfortable calling neocons
"authoritarian" rather than "fascist". Fascism is a rather loaded and overused word and few people agree on a universal definition.
Exactly. There is no way to have a constructive discussion over whether something is fairly compared to fascism. Ultimately, I think it's more constructive to simply describe a poltical movement on its own terms, and to highlight its dangers and flaws, without having to attach inflammatory labels to it.
well said.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhat scares me the most with all this talk about being insufficiently resolute or more accuratly - ruthless, is the fact that we've proven that ground troops aren't up to the task they've been given. The only tools we have left at our disposal is cruise missles and bombs and the only thing they're good at doing is making rubble,corpses and enemies.
ReplyDeleteSure is a lot of verbage to say that joe is a neocon shill and schmuck? Glenn, would it be more persuasive to be brief?
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of bloggers around who write posts that are shorter than the ones I write, and who opt to assert conclusions rather than elaborate on the premises for the conclusions. I suggest you read those blogs rather than requesting that I change my approach to blogging.
I realize that the downside of my approach is that it results in long posts -- sometimes excessively long posts, a problem that is probably unavoidable if one writes everyday without an editor -- but I prefer excess length and even repetition over incomplete reasoning and conclusory arguments. For those such as yourself who prefer the opposite, this is probably not the best blog for you to read.
Ultimately, the false assumption in your comment is reflected by this:
No democrat with any brains needs to read "War and Peace" to see the hypocracy and contempt joementum has for his constituents.
I don't write my posts for "democrats" or for people who already agree with what I'm saying. Those who do write with that objective can - as you suggest - simply assert their conclusions briefly without the need for building up the reasoning, since they assume that everyone will agree. That isn't the objective with what I write my posts.
I think characterizing TNR as being part of "some of the administration's most vocal supporters and reliable allies" is quite overblown, even if we're talking about only a limited subset of issues.
ReplyDeleteThe most significant issue, by far, of the Bush administraiton has been the invasion of Iraq and the underlying theories which led to it. What meaningful differences were there - or are there - betewen TNR and the Bush administration on those issues?
Have they opposed the administration's executive power abuses? Its excessive belligerence in foreign policy? You simply assert that it is overblown to characterize TNR as a supportive ally of the administration but provide no reasoning to support that assertion.
Seems to me the other big characteristic of a neocon is that you will NEVER find them battling the enemy in the trenches (real war).
ReplyDeleteThat's for "other" Americans and their kids.
Once the Soviet Union fell, many wondered how long it would take for the US to start acting like a global hegemon, and convert to effective empire status. All the preconditions are in place now.
ReplyDeleteShall the US Republic mirror Rome?
Neoconservatives turned Rome into an Empire from a Republic, through the senate. How ironic that Lieberman sits in a body named after that one (considering that the Roman Senate was an abject failure in maintaining the republic) and advocates for a new Emperor.
How do neoconservatives not notice that the more the US tries to control the world, the more it resists and the more "rogue" states one has to content with. If they succeed in crushing North Korea and Iran, will Venesuezla, Cuba and Somalia be next? When will France make the list? Or China?
No, even aside from the moral repugnance of their thinking, I don't see how their policies can even work from a pragmatic viewpoint.
No, even aside from the moral repugnance of their thinking, I don't see how their policies can even work from a pragmatic viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteIronically, the reason the policies aren't pragmatic is because they ARE morally repugnant! They guarantee that we'll be hated the world over.
All this from an element which has never seen blood on the battlefield, smelled the sweat of their own fear but espouses courage and determination from afar. The people who say liberals don't support the troops are under the misapprehension that the troops will finish up this war and come home. What they fail to recognize is that the Kristols of this world want our troops at war for evermore.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so we're all pretty well agreed neoconservatism (whatever it is) has proven a lousy framework from which to govern.
ReplyDeleteAny suggestions on what could be uses as a counter-weight?
It is attituted like Kristol's that illustrate the complete and utter contempt that the neoconservatives have for ordinary Americans. They and their allies have always played up that northeast elitist caricature of Democrats to get the faithful and the wavering over to their side. Yet they display those very characteristics - and become the condescending, paternalistic, and contemptuous beltway crowd they so profess to dislike.
ReplyDeleteMilitary too stretched to handle all the neocon big ticket battles? No problem. We just institute a limited draft of neocons and their advocates and give them the glorious opportunity the wage the battles they are craving.
ReplyDeleteshooter:
ReplyDeleteYour logic assumes that people either are or aren't terrorists. It utterly neglects the possibility that they can BECOME terrorists.
And we've certainly been helping that process along.
An interesting post. I agree that this is the primary reason that the Lieberman campaign has become such a lightning rod. There are other issues, of course, such as Joe's social conservatism, which I personally find disgusting, but his neoconservatism is the real driving force behind the Lamont candidacy.
ReplyDeleteIt is also true that many Democrats don't see Lieberman's neoconservatism as a deal breaker. A few days ago, I left a comment on an article in Salon, making essentially the same point as Glenn has here, although not quite as articulately. My point was that America's flirtation with a militarized imperialism was a very serious issue, and that if Lieberman supported it, he no more belonged in the Demoratic Party than Strom Thurmond did when the major issue facing us was Civil Rights.
Someone responded to my comment, saying that comparing Joe to a racist was unfair, and that Joe's position on the war wasn't important. What was important was that he was for universal health care, supported organized labor and a progressive tax structure, etc., and that we couldn't afford to get distracted from the real liberal issues.
Sigh.... I do hope that person somehow stumbles across Glenn's article, and takes it to heart.
Hoorah! Hoorah!
ReplyDeleteDetainees to Get Protections Under Geneva Conventions
(off topic, I know)
Hoorah! Hoorah!
ReplyDeleteDetainees to Get Protections Under Geneva Conventions!
(off topic, I know)
"There is no way to have a constructive discussion over whether something is fairly compared to fascism."
ReplyDeleteWhy not? Fascism is something that has existed, and it can be studied. It surely has certain defining qualities that empirically distinguish it from other political phenomena. And the same is true of neo-conservatism. Why wouldn't it be constructive to study both, and then to make an empirical comparison between them?
"Ultimately, I think it's more constructive to simply describe a poltical movement on its own terms, and to highlight its dangers and flaws, without having to attach inflammatory labels to it."
The relevant question should be not whether the labels are inflamatory, but whether they are true. If there's a legitimate empirical comparison to be made between neo-conservatism and fascism, then it is surely "constructive" to point out this fact to people, because it would give them historical perspective on the dangers of the present situation. And if no such comparison can be legitimately made, then that is worth pointing out, too, since many people are indeed making this comparison, and could benefit from being shown the error of their thinking.
Glenn, I'd really like to see you seriously address this question, pro or con, rather than simply dismissing it.
"I don't write my posts for "democrats" or for people who already agree with what I'm saying. Those who do write with that objective can - as you suggest - simply assert their conclusions briefly without the need for building up the reasoning, since they assume that everyone will agree. That isn't the objective with what I write my posts."
ReplyDeleteAnd that's why I read your blog every day, Glenn, and why I haven't clicked on Atrios in months.
Please don't change.
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnd if no such comparison can be legitimately made, then that is worth pointing out, too, since many people are indeed making this comparison, and could benefit from being shown the error of their thinking.
ReplyDeleteI'm among those to whom the link between neo-conservativism and fascism is as plain as day. Unfortunatly from a strategic point of view, stating the obvious can be counterproductive. Consider the fact that the wingers are still dissing Dick Durbin months after he simply pointed out that the behavior being reported at Guantanamo wasn't what one would expect from Americans.
The term "neoconservative" was coined back in the late 70s and early 80s for Scoop Jackson democrats who were domestic liberals but maintained the Dems' pre Vietnam Wilsonian internationalism, which included the use of military force and the establishment of democracy.
ReplyDeleteThe isolationist left's purge of "neoconservatives" started after Vietnam and may be completed with Joe Lieberman.
The schism you speak of is between those who favor internationalism and the use of military force when necessary and those who favor isolationism and oppose the use of military force for anything but defense of homeland.
This schism is as old as the Republic and hardly started with George Bush. However, for a time after WWII, there was an internationalist consensus between the parties and shared by the vast majority of the citizenry.
However, the schism returned during Vietnam and became deeper than usual because we lost that war.
Nearly all the rhetoric you Isolationists are slinging at George Bush and the current cadre of "neoconservatives" are retreads of what you slung at Reagan and his group of "neoconservatives" when he went on the offensive during the Cold War.
BTW, don't bother telling me that you are really internationalists because you are willing to work through the UN and negotiate. Isolationists in the 20s and 30s did the same thing with the future Axis powers.
What makes one an internationalist is being willing to use all necessary ACTIONS to stop international problems before they end up being attacks on our citizenry.
By using the usual "warmonger" rhetoric, it is clear what side of the schism you reside.
While I feel sorry for Joe Lieberman because he is a good man, I support your efforts to purge the Donkey Party of "neocons" like Joe. I want the voters to have a crystal clear knowledge that the faces of your party are Feingold, Murtha, Moore and Sheehan so they have a clear choice in November.
We conservative internationalists do not fear this fight. Indeed, we want to make this entire election about the choice which the Dems have made. Thank you for cooperating.
Is it really about star spangled freedom, liberty, and rightous hegemony as they preach, or is all their idealism merely thinly veiling a lust for old fashioned imperialism or, worse, naked barbarism?
ReplyDeleteNah. Just good ole self-enrichment & power. They could care less about ideals.
the use of military force when necessary and those who favor isolationism and oppose the use of military force for anything but defense of homeland.
ReplyDeleteYou and shooter both enjoy mischaracterizing the progressive position. Recall that almost the entire nation agreed that the invasion of Afghanistan was an appropriate response to 9-11.
The fact that we have allowed the Iraq war to distract us from the actual war against the actual terrorists and as a result we are losing that war goes right over your head. And the only solution you offer is to kill more people.
No thanks.....
From Bart at 12:24pm:
ReplyDeleteWe conservative internationalists do not fear this fight. Indeed, we want to make this entire election about the choice which the Dems have made. Thank you for cooperating.
I see. So its a choice between genocide and perpetual war on one side, and rational actions in service of both national interest an international cooperation on the other.
Thanks for firmly establishing which side you're on, Bart. I take it you were Arthur Liebehenschel in a previous life.
shooter242 said:
ReplyDeleteThere is no "moral" sanctuary to hide in when events are sufficiently driven by outside influences.
Blatant nihilism will get you nowhere. (Except, maybe, a job with the Bush administration).
God I love this.
ReplyDeleteFrom Glenn:
"This threat is not just uniquely dangerous, but unprecedentedly so, such that Islamic extremists render prior American ideals and principles -- both foreign and domestic -- obsolete, and only radically more militaristic approaches have any chance of saving us from destruction at their hands."
And, that is the sales pitch being rammed down the throats of those "traitors" (i.e. people who don't agree with neo-con agenda).
I was teaching a business law class yesterday, jr. college level. In the book was a mention of the Yoo memorandum, as an example of interpreting what a law is supposed to mean. When I read the small tidbit in the book I couldn't help but notice that all the students in the class were immediately repulsed by the idea that the president had "plenary" power to torture, imprison etc. and not be subject to the rule of law.
Glenn, you've written a few times about how there are some issues that are absolutely repugnant to the basic values Amercian's hold. I would argue that the way to change and challenge the existing media storyline of the neo-cons (far right nutcases) is to appeal to basic values American's hold.
The president is not above the law. I think that's a winner of a new storyline.
Glenn, thanks for developing that reasoning. Besides I like long posts.
"I'm among those to whom the link between neo-conservativism and fascism is as plain as day. Unfortunatly from a strategic point of view, stating the obvious can be counterproductive. Consider the fact that the wingers are still dissing Dick Durbin months after he simply pointed out that the behavior being reported at Guantanamo wasn't what one would expect from Americans."
ReplyDeleteBut, really, so what if the wingers are dissing Dick Durbin? This is the kind of timid thinking that inhibits the Democrats from openly confronting the abuses of the Bush administration: they are afraid of the Republican counterattack. But they shouldn't fear it; they should welcome it as another opportunity to attack the Republicans with harsh truths.
Stating the inflammatory truth is only counterproductive if you cower at the first sign of attack. But if you persist unflinchingly in maintaining your truthful position, you will ultimately alter the debate in your favor. That's why I think that if the neocons are fascists, then we should unapologetically say so--and if they aren't, then we shouldn't, and we should criticize those who do.
It just won't work, because there are limits to power.
ReplyDeletePNAC's Weltanschauung is essentially good old American exceptionalism, but applied to foreign 'policy', heavily armed, and spoiling for a fight.
This is more about the neocons than Joe Lieberman. I'm 62 born at the close of WWII and have lived in a country that has been in a perpetual state of war for my whole existance, WWII,minor incursions,Korea,more minor incursions, the omnipresent Cold War,the Vietnam War, more minor incursions, and now the War on Terror. During all that time the government has been run by both parties sometimes split, sometimes sharing power and now with one party in total control. The current crop of rulers(neocons) are at best(worst) more open about there warlikeness and promote war on a most barbarous scale. The United States of America has elected all of these political leaders so I must conclude that a majority of it's citizens approve of constant warfare. The only change I have observed during my lifetime of political awareness is the increased speed with which all pols have become corrupt, it appears to this person that it takes less than 1 year now. More than just repel the neocons we need educate the majority of Americans that rarely does war solve problems.
ReplyDeleteI would also add the new documentary, Islam: What the West Needs to Know" as another manifestation of this neo-con tendency toward violent overreaction and militarism. The film's own Web site says "this documentary demonstrates that Islam is a violent, expansionary ideology that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths, cultures, and systems of government." In effect, the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Naturally, this film is being talked up by the bloodthirty hysterical mob on LittleGreenFootballs.com and FreeRepublic.com.
ReplyDeleteThe bloodthirsty right wing fascists are a significant component of the Republican majority, and the rest of the party can't write them off as crackpots or lunatics anymore. Their fervor drives many of their issues and sustains their party discipline and GOTV efforts. All that's missing are the brown shirts and armbands.
"baghdad" bart said:
ReplyDeleteThe term "neoconservative" was coined back in the late 70s...
Jeebus, history lessons? Isn't it time to banish this devisive prevaricator and his tiresome rants?
GG, as usual your clarity in describing the administrations actions is flawless. Here is the question;
ReplyDeleteJust shy of cloning Gingis Khan, if Bush isn't the right leader to serve the NeoConservative agendas, who in God's name do they think is their man?
The funny thing about Krystol and his fellow chicken hawk's rants is that they pretend like everything was going just great, and then Bush changed his tactics and now things are going bad. The fact as we know it is that Bush's policies have failled miserably and that has FORCED him to change. Why are the Dems so weak? Taking these people down shoul be like shooting ducks in a barrel (or clipped winged phesants from a car). Pathetic.
ReplyDeleteAnother great post, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteKeep 'em as long as you like.
I've always felt that dishonesty is a more easily traded commodity amongst neoconservatives. What they profess and say they believe belies how they act.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"baghdad" bart said: The term "neoconservative" was coined back in the late 70s...
Jeebus, history lessons?
Some of you younger folks may have been under the misapprehension from Glenn's post that "neoconservatism" was a GOP phenomenon which started with the "evil" George Bush.
Taint so.
Neoconservatism is a derogatory term for what was once the foreign policy of FDR, Truman and JFK.
The republicans impeached a popular predident for lying about a blowjob! The Dems should be shutting down congress and demanding investigations into all this lawlessness! If we have a cinstitutional crisis as Glenn and others point out, why have they not done this? There is nothing to loose if the Pres is already disregarding the constitution. Could someone tell me why this has not already happened (other than dem weakness).
ReplyDeletebart:
ReplyDeleteyou forgot LBJ!
This'll never emerge from the comments, but it's a point I feel must be made. Everyone should look at the neoCons and feel a sense of Deja Vu.
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism is not a failed ideology, it merely was failed in execution. When you institute regime change, democracy will spring forth naturally. Anyone who contests this is a traitor, to be reported.
Now change 'Democracy' to 'Communism'. Change 'Regime Change' to 'Revolution', and you realize Neoconservatism had another name not so long ago.
Marxism.
We have met the communists, and they are us.
Martin, the Nuclear Liberal.
From Bart at 12:51pm:
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism is a derogatory term for what was once the foreign policy of FDR, Truman and JFK.
I wasn't aware those three Presidents ever advocated genocide or perpetual war. Guess I missed that bit of American history.
Sometimes liberals forget that abusing people's sense of proportion is counter-productive.
ReplyDeleteHar har har! Like evoking mushroom clouds in order to transfer the contents of the US Treasury to Halliburton? Like equating Max Cleland to Saddam Hussein?
From shooter242 at 1:05pm:
ReplyDeleteCall back when you return to non-fiction.
Oh, you mean Kristol and company haven't been suggesting we simply kill our enemies outright?
When you're done living in Wonderland, feel free to climb up out of the rabbit hole and rejoin the rest of us in the real world, shooter. Or please just air out your braincase.
From shooter242 at 12:48pm:
ReplyDeleteIf he had said it the same way you just did, no problem. Instead, he decided to make a splash by bringing in the worst mass murderers of the twentieth century.
Either your grasp of English is worse than you grasp of reality (a stretch, I know, but not beyond the bounds of genetics), or you really never grasped what Durbin was saying.
Then again, I suspect your native language is 'gibberish'; I doubt anyone could come up with an accurate translation for that dialect.
I think you spelled it wrong, Glenn. It doesn't have nearly so many letters: "fascism".
ReplyDeleteCheers,
"baghdad" bart said:
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism is a derogatory term for what was once the foreign policy of FDR, Truman and JFK.
Stating and re-writing history in one swell foop!
BTW, I'm 53. You?
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteThere is no way to have a constructive discussion over whether something is fairly compared to fascism. Ultimately, I think it's more constructive to simply describe a poltical movement on its own terms, and to highlight its dangers and flaws, without having to attach inflammatory labels to it.
Oh, piffle. When someone's a racist, I'm not going to elaborate on the strength pf their feelings as to their sister's potential mates ... or debate whether they bedded a servant girl and fathered a child by them and what that all means.
Fascism is a perfetly good term; we can and should avoid Nazism as inaccurate, but fascism fits the boot here.
Cheers,
I realize that the downside of my approach is that it results in long posts -- sometimes excessively long posts, a problem that is probably unavoidable if one writes everyday without an editor -- but I prefer excess length and even repetition over incomplete reasoning and conclusory arguments.
ReplyDeletePlease don't apologize about this. You are one of the few people on the internet that seems to be able to put more than a few thoughts together into a coherent thesis.
shooter: Surely what's legal is moral as well?
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily. Slavery used to be legal; that did not make it moral.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteSo now it's five years later and we haven't had any attacks locally,...
... except for the Emmanuel Goldberg moments when it was politically expedient.
Cheers,
From shooter242 at 1:20pm:
ReplyDeleteYou folks are the ones wanting troops to do what's legal, right? Make up your mind. Surely what's legal is moral as well?
I've had to read this several times to make sure I'm not imagining this; I honestly didn't think it was possible for a human to be as morally vacuous as this.
You have it backwards, friend. Ideally, moral values are what drive the law, not the latter dictating the former. Hence our instinctive revulsion to both the slaughter of war and the advocacy of mass murder presently bolivated by Kristoll and others.
You mean he didn't really mean what he said? He just mentioned Gulags, Nazi's and Pol Pot by accident? ROFL.
Oh, he meant it. And he was accurate in stating our troops were behaving in ways reminiscent of the SS, and how our government's policies coming increasingly in line with those of Stalin and Pol Pot.
The comparisons are there and increasingly obvious, provided one has the actual courage to both look and comprehend them; you have yet to demonstrate you have even a glimmer of this particular quality.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
Speaking strictly empirically, how close is neo-conservatism to fascism? In other words, if the neo-cons got everything they wanted in both domestic and foreign policy, would we then be living in a fascist state? Or, in asking this, am I greatly overestimating the neo-cons' threat to liberty?
I'd love to see you devote a post to this question. Certainly, many people have likened the neo-cons to fascists, and I am often tempted to do it myself. I'd like to know if you think that's a fair comparison, or an irresponsible smear.
10:45 AM
Neoconservatism is not facist per say. After all, the last 30 years show that it is perfectly able to act as the guiding ideology of a constitutional republic.
I did some research into this topic to find out what neoconservatism is all about and what it hopes to achieve. For that you need to look at Leo Strauss and in particular what Strass admired and what he distained. I was shocked by the answer I discovered.
It seems that Strauss is an admirer of the political structures that existed in Europe before WWI especially the German Constitution of Wilhelmine Germany. Strauss considers this a golden form of goverment. This is horrible for two reasons:
1. Wilhelmine Germany was an anti-democratic polis, where the executive branch dominated and controlled the legislative branch completely. Not at all like the British tradition where the Parliment rules and the king approves. In Pre WWI Germany the King (or his advisors) ruled and the legislature was bullied into agreement or agreement with slight modifications. It was also a polis that constantly used "official state ennemies" as a means of political mobilization and control. During this period of German history both Catholics and Socialists were targeted as offical ennemies of the Reich. Most attractive to Strauss, it was a polis that was very tightly controlled by advisers and insiders, who saw themselves as the ruling class of Germany. The parallels between this and America's national government during the Bush Presidency is eerie.
2- This form of government has historically been inherently militaristic and aggressive. And these aggressive tendencies led directly to the armageddon of the First World War, a conflict that forever diminished European power in the rest of the world. Why a group of intellectuals would model America's future on a form of goverment that ultimately produced tragedy is a horror to behold. It says more about their need for control and their contempt for the people of America than anything else.
Some intellectuals have always hated Democracy and have always felt that it needed to be actively "managed" to produce results. Interestingly this is the trait that links Irving Kristol the marxist with Irving Kristol the neo conservative : contempt for democracy and the will of the people.
I don't necessarily disagree with Glenn's analysis, but I think there is another angle to take. First, the war against the fabricated "Islamofascism" (something that isn't real but that the neocons are struggling to make real) is a matter of convenience. That is, it is the eternal war that defines neoconservatism, not the enemy; neoconservatism defines the enemy. (If orphans were the only enemy available to the necons, they would make war against orphofascism.)
ReplyDeleteSecond, I think what we are seeing regarding Liebermann is more like the way loyal minorities have always been treated in times of stress and danger to a class's political control than an indication of a rigid definition of political acceptabillity. Liebermann is the "white" Negro who supports segregation and decries Black behavior. He is the Jew who tells his fellows to fall into line and everything will be OK. He is Phyllis Schlafly. He is Michelle Malkin. He is the self-hating gay man. And he loves the attention.
History has seen many, many such people, especially in imperial regimes where power lies in the favor of the monarch. Liebermann yearns to suck the cock of neocon power.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteThat is the fundamental view of the world that seperates the current camps....
* If one DOESN"T believe that the US is really under constant attack, all the aspects of war, courts, torture, etc., are arbitrary and needless.
* If one DOES believe the US is a target then it is all in the cause of self-defense, and unquestionably appropriate.
Fallacy of bifurcation. Typical RW thinking.
Cheers,
From arne langstemo at 1:31pm:
ReplyDelete... except for the Emmanuel Goldberg moments when it was politically expedient.
Er, Arne. Despite the fact he's a prime candidate for the role of "Ampleforth", I somehow doubt shooter242 would understand the reference.
Mores the pity.
Glenn’s post is outstanding for its substance, clarity, reasoning and support for his arguments. He may tend toward verbosity, but I prefer to read bloggers who offer original and insightful analysis of serious matters, and that’s what he provides. (I suppose he could just link and add a “heh” or “Indeed” after it, but that’s available elsewhere.)
ReplyDeleteFurther, it is good that he does not employ inflammatory language such as “fascist” to describe neocons or anyone else (short of the Dominionists and such, who really are clerical fascists). Doing so would merely facilitate Bush supporters and others in focusing on the terminology rather than the substance of his argument.
Astonishingly, Bart is correct about a few things, in that the neocons emerged as an identifiable political movement in the late 70s. In my view, they were not then so wrong in their Cold Warrior positions, but they have morphed into authoritarian war-mongers when it comes to Muslims and terrorism, and domestic security. It is further my view that they combine the worst of liberalism with conservatism, in that they are not opposed to “big govt” and spending, attacks on federalism, and various other traditionally liberal positions that they have married to a militaristic agenda and willingness to accommodates social conservatives in statist, anti-federalist ways. (And some neocons are themselves statist social conservatives, and not merely accommodating of same in exchange for votes.)
In any event, Glenn’s post is excellent, and I hope it is widely linked to and discussed.
I find it most interesting that the leading advocates of the neoconservative ideology of unmerciful military force(Kristol, Cheney et al), did everything in their power to avoid serving in the military.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, are these people sociopaths? Do they lack any understanding of human suffering and the horrors of modern warfare?
bart, shooter242, and Glenn seem to agree on one point: there is another major realignment underway in our major political parties, and it probably can't and shouldn't be stopped.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as one who idolized LBJ for his staunch support of civil rights, yet opposed him with every political tool at my disposal over the Vietnam war, I'm well aware that this 40 year old realignment has so far been to the detriment of the Democratic Party.
Still, the argument isn't over yet, and bart and shooter242 shouldn't be too confident in their triumphalism.
War is a blunt instrument, a very blunt instrument, and once unleashed, it has unpredictable consequences. The Allies' indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations, while understandable as a response to Nazi provocations, opened the way to Osama bin Laden's claim that anyone in the West is a legitimate target. (It's also interesting that overwhelming superiority in conventional arms also invites the targeting of civilians. If the Palestinians had Apache gunships, perhaps they wouldn't need suicide bombers.)
It seems plain to me, if not to armed libertarians, neoconservatives and their fellow travelers and apologists, that those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind. This applies not only to Bomber Harris's German civilians, but to ours as well. If you look with clear eyes at American exceptionalism today, what you see is 12 aircraft carrier attack groups in the service of morons blinded by their own self-righteousness. If you look a short way into the future, you see a country which can preserve its hegemony over the rest of the world only by invoking Armegeddon.
To bart and shooter242, I say this: the jury is still out on whether or not the American people will follow you and your neoconservative friends all the way down this path. For that you should be truly grateful.
anonymous @ 1:33pm: Some intellectuals have always hated Democracy and have always felt that it needed to be actively "managed" to produce results. Interestingly this is the trait that links Irving Kristol the marxist with Irving Kristol the neo conservative : contempt for democracy and the will of the people.
ReplyDeleteThere is something more than ironical in this, isn't there? Neoconservatism is plausibly anti-democratic yet GW Bush spouts sincerely about bringing democracy to the world.
The irony here cuts several ways: Bush doesn't understand that his henchmen are anti-democratic and he is thereofore a rube at the hands of the neocons; the neocons play a duplicitous game whose vision of power encompasses much more than the presidency; the neocons themselves are deceived in their delusions of grandeur and Bush is playing them for his own ends.
Irony of course helps us realize that these power-mongers are as much pawns of their own despair and ignorance as they are the masters of destiny.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism is a derogatory term for what was once the foreign policy of FDR, Truman and JFK.
12:51 PM
Very very clever, completely dishonest and misleading. You see for the neo conservative whether the people agree or disagree is irrelevant, it is the freedom to act that is important.
So, lying and linking the idea of neo conservatism with 3 of the most admired presidents in American history is a great propaganda trick.
FDR, Truman and JFK were capital L LIBERALS. Their foreign policy was LIBERAL INTERNATIONALISM. You know, the Atlantic Charter, the UN, the UN declaration of Human Rights, multilateralism, conflict minimization (suez 56), containment over rollback, diplomacy, ... it's something neo conservatives spit on today in their books, while claiming to be its "true" inheritors in public.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteWhat makes one an internationalist is being willing to use all necessary ACTIONS to stop international problems before they end up being attacks on our citizenry.
And this has WFT to do with Iraq?!?!?
HWSNBN still doesn't recognise this a a big glaring problem with his purported "theory" above ... but, strange to say, Iraq fits nicely in with the actual "neocon" game plan; hell, they spelled it out in the PNAC document (and its predecessor sent to Netanyahu). The "neocons" needed 9/11. Without it, their aspirations were going nowhere; they needed the fig leaf of "security" to cover for their real agenda, which couldn't be sold for what it was even to the likes of Netanyahu. But let's be honest about what it's all about, and it's got zip to do with any actual danger that the U. S. of freakin' A will fall to Osama's ragtag band.....
Cheers,
When you have the dumbest and the weakest leading America
ReplyDeleteIf it was just the dumbest and the weakest, I'd be less worried than I am today.
But We have the dumbest and the weakest and the most arrogant and inflexible.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 12:51pm: Neoconservatism is a derogatory term for what was once the foreign policy of FDR, Truman and JFK.
I wasn't aware those three Presidents ever advocated genocide or perpetual war. Guess I missed that bit of American history.
No President ever has.
The big question to ask neocons is: If what our enemies do (Saddam's attacks on his own people, al Qaeda terrorist attacks, etc.) is so terrible, why do we want to emulate them so much? I asked that question during Vietnam and never did get an answer, so I'm not holding my breath now.
ReplyDeleteBTW: I read Froma Harrop's column at Creators.com today. She had a good analysis on the Lieberman race, pointing out that it's not a single-issue (i.e. Iraq) campaign.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: ... except for the Emmanuel Goldberg moments when it was politically expedient.
Er, Arne. Despite the fact he's a prime candidate for the role of "Ampleforth", I somehow doubt shooter242 would understand the reference.
Oh, I don't put this kind of stuff in for the likes of shooter242 and HWSNBN. I do like to needle them, but I'd get bored descending to their level all the time just so they might stand a chance of catching on (a vain hope in any case). As pointed out previously, I comment more for the lurkers and passers-by here, so that these characters will be seen for what they are and taken exactly as seriously as they deserve. You'll note that I generally lay off people like "The Major"; no need in his case, he speaks for himself well enough.
Cheers,
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeletebart, shooter242, and Glenn seem to agree on one point: there is another major realignment underway in our major political parties, and it probably can't and shouldn't be stopped.
The political realignment has already occurred. It started in the Presidency with Reagan and finished with Congress and the States over the past decade.
The post Vietnam foreign policy schism over the use of the military was a key part of the GOP taking over and maintaining majority status.
So long as the Donkeys adhere to attack the use of the military during a time of war as "fascism," they have no chance in any national campaign in the near future.
From Bart at 2:14pm:
ReplyDeleteNo President ever has.
Very good! So, why would you go saying their foreign policy, which you claim is 'neoconservatism'-by-another-unnamed-named, would be based upon such things?
And before you start hyperventalating, take a long, hard look at you chain of reasoning: Kristol and company are advocating US policy be based on both outright genocide and perpetual warfare, labeling it 'neoconservatism'. You're stating that term likewise encompasses the policies of FDR, Truman, and JFK. Ergo, through that same line of reasoning, you want US policy to be based upon those same things.
Either clarify your reasoning or just admit you're the reincarnation of Ioseb Jughashvili, will you?
From Bart at 2:25pm:
ReplyDeleteSo long as the Donkeys adhere to attack the use of the military during a time of war as "fascism," they have no chance in any national campaign in the near future.
Oh, I completely agree.
Good thing that's not what's really happening here on Planet Earth.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteSo long as the Donkeys adhere to attack the use of the military during a time of war as "fascism," they have no chance in any national campaign in the near future.
Then why did Bush lose, not just in 2000 (handily) but in 2004?
Easy response to neoncon:
ReplyDeleteMore war=draft and taxes.
It's that simple.
Still wannabe a neocon?
BTW: I would also suggest if we have a draft, those who managed to "skip" Vietnam should have to serve in some form.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo, lying and linking the idea of neo conservatism with 3 of the most admired presidents in American history is a great propaganda trick.
FDR, Truman and JFK were capital L LIBERALS. Their foreign policy was LIBERAL INTERNATIONALISM. You know, the Atlantic Charter, the UN, the UN declaration of Human Rights, multilateralism...
You mean like ramming military intervention in Korea through the UN when the Soviets were absent with nearly no debate?
conflict minimization (suez 56)...
Minimization? Do you really want to count up all the large and small war prosecuted under Dem presidents ending with Vietnam?
BTW, the Suez matter occurred under Eisenhower and did not substantially affect US interests.
containment over rollback...
This is a major distinction between FDR and Reagan (rollback of fascism and communism) vs. Truman, Kennedy and LBJ (defensive containment). However, unlike their predecessors, the current isolationist Donkeys will not enter into any sort of ground war - offensive or defensive.
diplomacy, ...
Every President engages in diplomacy. Neocons are willing to use economic and military force when diplomacy fails, which makes their diplomacy more effective in the first instance because there are consequences.
Think Progress has some good links to articles that showing that the idea that the Senate can just put a band-aid on the Guantanamo issue is superficial at best, unconstitutional at worst.
ReplyDeleteQutoing SCOTUS from another decision handed down the same day as Hamdan:
Under our Constitution, “[t]he judicial Power of the United States” is “vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.” Art. III, §1. That “judicialPower . . . extend[s] to . . . Treaties.” Id., §2. And, as Chief Justice Marshall famously explained, that judicial power includes the duty “to say what the law is.” Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177 (1803). If treaties are to be given effect as federal law under our legal system, determining their meaning as a matter of federal law “is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department,” headed by the “one supreme Court” established by the Constitution. {emphasis ThinkProgress]
"So long as the Donkeys adhere to attack the use of the military during a time of war as "fascism," they have no chance in any national campaign in the near future."
ReplyDeletebart, this is 1) a straw man argument, and 2) whistling in the dark. How about addressing my actual argument, the part about the utility (or lack thereof) of using overwhelming force to change other people's opinions. Unless, of course, you actually can see the future.
bart said
ReplyDeleteWhat makes one an internationalist is being willing to use all necessary ACTIONS to stop international problems before they end up being attacks on our citizenry.
No, bart, that's NEOCONSERVATISM. Because only neocons see the entire world as a growing threat to be stamped out.
Unless you conside aid to be an "action" but somehow I doubt it. It's all about manliness with you people.
You still hear the administration saying that they do not torture. They are tehrefore saying that they follow Geneva Covention article 3. Marty Lederman disputes this, showing that treatment meted out at Guantanamo--and rendition centers?--does not meet the criteria for humane treatment set out by the Geneva Conventions.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Lederman:
If this is what the Administration thinks Common Article 3 allows, it is dreadfully wrong, and we're being sold a bill of goods. Common Article 3 provides, in no uncertain terms, that "[t]o th[e] end" of ensuring humane treatment, certain specified acts "are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever"—including "cruel treatment and torture," and "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment."
In other words, many techniques that were not prohibited by the President's "humane treatment" directive (as a result of a very unnatural intepretation of the word "humane") are prohibited by Common Article 3, including all humiliating and degrading treatment, and other "outrages upon personal dignity." This is something that the Administration should be required to address directly, if its new directive is to be worth anything.
No, steve, that DOESN'T sound more like Bolshevism than Fascism. Especially when you throw in the military fetishism.
ReplyDeleteWhile I believe you make a valid point with regards to political conflict being about "those who believe in neoconservatism versus those who do not", it seems that the battles are still being prosecuted within the constructs of liberal v. conservative or left v. right.
ReplyDeleteRead a series of discussions that attempt to explain how this subtle but significant distinction is being played out in the Lieberman v. Lamont race and the Rove strategy for the November election...and how it may impact the netroots movement and the Democratic Party in the future...here:
www.thoughttheater.com
bart said
ReplyDeleteThis is a major distinction between FDR and Reagan (rollback of fascism and communism) vs. Truman, Kennedy and LBJ (defensive containment).
Good lord, bart. Just when you were making some sense. Reagan rolled back FASCISM? Let alone that he apparently waved his hand and made a few jokes and the USSR fell as a direct result, but I didn't know Mussolini was still around. maybe he was hiding in Grenada.
Let alone that he apparently waved his hand and made a few jokes and the USSR fell as a direct result. leading to the bizarre belief that throwing gobs of money at Raytheon is a sure path to victory.
ReplyDelete"So Fascism? No. It's an authoritarian statism with an amorality that is stunning in both scope and willingness to kill in "the ends justify the means for the greater good" manner..."
ReplyDelete" Neo-conservatism is a barbaric authoritarian statism based on expansion of domain by force of arms, using exploitation of religion, cultural prejudice, class difference, and demanding lockstep conformity of the masses through intolerance to criticism, and control of all aspects of the government leading to control of the nation.
"There you have it. Doesn't sound so Fascist after all."
How the hell can you claim that what you've just described is not fascism? How would you empirically distinguish it from fascism? It sounds pretty much exactly like fascism to me, and I'm sure it would to countless other people, as well.
I concede that I might misunderstand the nature of either fascism or neoconservatism, or both. Which is why I'm still hoping that Glenn--or someone on this blog--can compellingly demonstrate that they are not the same thing. If I'm wrong in thinking the neocons are fascist, then I'd like to be corrected. But you certainly haven't corrected me here; quite the contrary.
Seriously, are these people sociopaths? Do they lack any understanding of human suffering and the horrors of modern warfare?
ReplyDeleteYes. How else to understand their universal fascination with torture and humilation of prisoners?
If military strategy was their only concern, if they really were the hard-nosed realists they claim to be, they would vehemently oppose institutionalized torture, on the grounds that it hurts the war effort. (The arguments against torture do not need be rehashed here.)
Yet we see a surprising and seemingly unwarranted fixation of legitimizing torture by any means necessary. This love of torture is entirely identified with the neocon circle.
One salient feature of fascist-type movements is the strong streak of irrationality and unfocused anger which characterize them. Torture does not benefit us militarily, but it does benefit the cementing of bonds within the circle and serve to exacerbate the ever-increasing gulf between neocons and the undifferentiated and archetypal Enemy.
I'm sorry, "fixation of legitimizing torture" in the above should be "fixation on legitimizing torture".
ReplyDeleteBart says
ReplyDeleteThe post Vietnam foreign policy schism over the use of the military was a key part of the GOP taking over and maintaining majority status.
This is part of the modern tragedy of America. It was the success of the neo conservatives to provide a "stabbed in the back" narrative after 1972 (eerily similar to Germany in the 20s) that allowed them to escape accountability for the failure of their national security ideas and policies in the face of the Vietnam War.
This has helped to lead the USA directly into the Iraq debacle.
There is a saying that a person will relive the same experience over and over again until they understand it well enough to overcome it. It took Germany twice. Now America is well on to its second failed "intervention abroad". Hopefully the time of learning is at hand.
The neoconservatives have had nothing more not less on their agenda than a takeover of the government. The sooner we recognize this the better. Comparing them to fascism or authoritarians of any branch means little to most people since the horrors of those phenomena can't be brought home on a human level. For most people, talk of a government takeover in the US--where these things just don't happen--is like talking about fairies in Beulah land.
ReplyDeleteMuch of the discussion here and elsewhere still works at the level of abstractions and fog. The reality of what a takeover might look like or how it might be felt and experienced slowly seeps into consciousness and is soon forgotten. Remember the days after 911 when people walked around in a despondent funk--when people were fired for voicing minimal opposition to the so-called "war" on terrorism?
I suggest that that reality is what covers most of the dealings we have with the world now. The neocons have indeed changed the way we think about the world--and it is a much more brutish, nasty, and short-sighted vision of American ideals than has ever existed in America.
There's something that Americans have never been able to face, even though they have committed atrocity after atrocity. That is the dark secret that lies behind the neocon takeover--they know that Americans will never ever allow to come to consciousness exactly how evil America’s precious innocence and ignorance are.
One salient feature of fascist-type movements is the strong streak of irrationality and unfocused anger which characterize them.
ReplyDeleteDoes everyone remember The Dixie Chicks?
I thought so.....
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteTo quote Ron Bailey’s excellent examination of the neocons' cynical accommodation of religious/social conservatives (an article nearly a decade old but very timely):
ReplyDelete"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people," [Irving Kristol, father of Bill - ed. Hypatia] says in an interview. "There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work."
The neocons do not believe truth is paramount. They will promote that which they are too intelligent to really believe in order to secure their political goals, including obviously their foreign policy agenda. Please read Bailey’s entire piece.
steve
ReplyDeleteit's true that, if we take nazism/fascism and stalinism/bolshevism as the twin political poles of the 20th c (and i doubt that's a good idea anyway), there are resemblances to both. Someone else might be better able to make distinctions among them, but I see
(1) Active participation by some private corporations: Halliburton, Diebold, but not necessarily the whole oil industry (who opposed the neocon plan to crash the oil market). Still several steps away from actual Nazism.
(2) A theory of endless war that is indeed very similar to a theory of endless revolution, or, dare I say it, jihad. (Jihad, remember, is always a defensive war to take back stolen lands. It is the Arab/Islamic equivalent of Dolchstoss.) Hitler proposed an empire but not, as I recall, eternal war; still, he went for annihilation as a consolation prize. This theory is presently in actual practice, of course.
To me, none of these labels is really appropriate. If anything (and I have said this before), this philosophy is mostly an opportunistic parasite of fat, happy, and self-satisfied consumer hosts. For that there is no parallel. In a way they are trying to bring back the British Empire, but their very means ensure that a Pax Americana is impossible and a contradiction in terms.
From Bart at 2:38pm:
ReplyDeleteEvery President engages in diplomacy. Neocons are willing to use economic and military force when diplomacy fails, which makes their diplomacy more effective in the first instance because there are consequences.
We could go back and forth on this until the sun goes nova.
Yes, Korea was not necessarily a straightforward or 'pure' intervention on our part, and yes, Democratic Presidents have been no less willing to use military force in the national interest than Republican ones.
The model for Bart's assertion above however would be the Cuban Missile Crisis, which married very focused, very limited military action with intensive diplomatic maneuvering (both public and private); no surprise it was under a Democratic President, is it?
The whole 'containment' versus 'rollback' debate can similiarly go on and on. Did the USSR collapse faster due to 'proxy wars' in Latin America and Central Asia? One could argue it either way; myself I tend slightly towards a tentative "yes", primarily because the Soviet system was just about out of steam both morally and socially, although most commentators don't dwell on what a gigantic gamble it was on Reagan's part to reignite the arms race back then. No surprise again anxiety over nuclear war reached levels unseen since the "duck-and-cover" 1950s under a Republican President, is it?
Bard concludes with However, unlike their predecessors, the current isolationist Donkeys will not enter into any sort of ground war - offensive or defensive.
This is only half-way accurate, and based on a somewhat narrow definition of constitutes an 'internationalist'. No, Democrats are unlikely to support a large military intervention today, though I think this is more a reflection of the fact (a) the US isn't in any immediate danger of being invaded or conquered by an external opponent, and (b) there is a strong distrust of using military force for reasons other than straightforward national defense. The current situation with Iraq has likely only reinforced these views.
They will promote that which they are too intelligent to really believe in order to secure their political goals,
ReplyDeletea strategy directly due to Leo Strauss....
It's hardly surprising then why Strauss is so popular in an administration obsessed with secrecy, especially when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Not only did Strauss have few qualms about using deception in politics, he saw it as a necessity. While professing deep respect for American democracy, Strauss believed that societies should be hierarchical – divided between an elite who should lead, and the masses who should follow. But unlike fellow elitists like Plato, he was less concerned with the moral character of these leaders. According to Shadia Drury, who teaches politics at the University of Calgary, Strauss believed that "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right – the right of the superior to rule over the inferior."
hypatia: The neocons do not believe truth is paramount.
ReplyDeleteThey practise the "double-truth" theory, which was first espoused by Plato in Republic and then taken up by Ibn Rushd (aka Averroes) and other Islamic philosophers. This theory teaches that there are truths for the unlettered and ignorant and truths for the intellectual and "scientist." In most cases, these philosophers limited the theory to divine scripture.
Strauss took over the theory from the Islamic philosophers and Plato and noted that philosophy is destructive to the state and therefore should only be practised by the initiated. He therefore backed the notion that democracy (in true Platonic and Aristotelian fashion) is a retrograde political system. The truth of political power is to be exercised by the initiated few who understand the true workings of how power and force are to be used.
Neoconservatism isn't fascism. For one, all the facist regimes that have existed create parallel political institutions, particularly rival organizations that compete with gov't for the legitimate use of force.
ReplyDeleteThe closest thing in the US to that is the militia/white nationalist/patriot movement.
The reason people compete comparing neoconsevatism and the current administration to fascism is because they recognize that both are encouraging trends that contribute to the rise of fascism.
Nationalism, the rejection of liberalism, populism directed at the Left, militarism, etc.
In the Anatomy of Fascism (which I just so happen to be reading at the moment), Robert Paxton defines fascism so:
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.
Bush and the neoconservatives are the traditional elites.
Hume's Ghost:
ReplyDeleteThanks for that post. Informative, and enlightening. While Dubya and company (Cheney, certainly) are the "elites", we do need to keep an eye out for the nutzoes as well (and they do have their representatives in the Republican party). At what point is the marriage enough to take alarum?
Cheers,
In defending his view that the US is currently under a form of "soft fascism," Richard Sennett alludes to Paxton's work and then moves on to show why there is indeed fascism at work in the US:
ReplyDelete"Fascism" is both a strong and an opaque word. Discussions here about whether America is threatened by fascism have been focused this autumn by the appearance of Robert Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism. An historian of Vichy France at Columbia University, Paxton calmly explores rather than rants about fascism as "democracy gone wrong" in Europe from 1919 to 1939. Yet its final chapter has roused debate because Paxton argues that democracy can go wrong whenever far-right beliefs intersect with conservative economic and political institutions, and that the longing for an iron grip is much more than historical accident. Light references to Israel and the United States evince Paxton's prudence yet his readers have not taken these suggestions lightly.
We could think of fascism itself as either hard or soft. Hard fascism rams home to the citizen that he or she is held in that iron grip, as in Mussolini's theatre of force or George Orwell's nightmare Nineteen Eighty-four. Soft fascism is not so much a velvet glove as an invisible hand, the operations of control hidden from scrutiny as Patriot Act II, and more, internal repression presented to the public as merely preventive action against threats that have yet to materialise. The Bush administration acted in this preventive way, for instance, by shutting three of the larger Muslim charities in America, not for anything they had done, but for what might happen, some time, somewhere. In hard fascism the state exploits concrete fear, in soft fascism the state exploits diffuse anxiety.
At what point is the marriage enough to take alarum?
ReplyDeletehow 'bout when the home addresses of journalists and photographers start turning up on the internets...
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteAnd before you start hyperventalating, take a long, hard look at you chain of reasoning: Kristol and company are advocating US policy be based on both outright genocide and perpetual warfare, labeling it 'neoconservatism'. You're stating that term likewise encompasses the policies of FDR, Truman, and JFK. Ergo, through that same line of reasoning, you want US policy to be based upon those same things.
No, the first element of your syllogism is your slander of the policy of internationalism, not the actual policy. No one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare. Therefore, your argument fails from the outset.
While we're talking about neoconservatism, I've had this essay from a self-described classical conservative writing under the pen name "Werther" about the rise of pseudoconservatism (which he considers neoconservatism a branch of) for a while now.
ReplyDeleteHe picks up where Richard Hofstadter left on in the paranoid style and argues that the fringe element Hofstadter was describing is now mainstream and politically dominant.
hypatia said...
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism isn't fascism. For one, all the facist regimes that have existed create parallel political institutions, particularly rival organizations that compete with gov't for the legitimate use of force.
Good point. I would have said that we are certainly not seeing fascism yet, because our institutions are still functioning and power is still diffuse. But there is a parasite on our republic that, if it kills its host, will bring about true fascism.
Having said that, that ARE parallel institutions that have been created: think tanks. There, debate over strategies for ruling the world that would ordinarily occur in the open, where such ideas would wither in the sun, is allowed to continue unseen and unheard by most citizens.
The institution that this phenomenon parallels is not the govt, but the free press. Just add blogs.
C.L.
ReplyDeleteDave Neiwert has written an essay about that. Its "The Rise of Pseudo Fascism"
From Bart at 3:54pm:
ReplyDeleteNo one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare.
I am taking Kristoll and company at their word. Its frankly hard to think what else they might be advocating with columns like "Kill, Don't Capture" and the like.
If indeed you are rejecting their views, please just say so.
No, the first element of your syllogism is your slander of the policy of internationalism, not the actual policy.
One second we're discussing 'neoconservatism', the next you're saying we're talking about 'internationalism'. Do make up your mind, then we can talk.
Therefore, your argument fails from the outset.
My argument is based on the written statements of Kristol, Peters, and Kaplan and your own comments. Is it my fault you're advocating positions detested by the rest of the civilized world?
No one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare.
ReplyDeleteSo how will we know when the "war on terror" is over?
phd9: So how will we know when the "war on terror" is over?
ReplyDeleteWhen the clouds open and Xrist in His glory and the celestial angels sing Hosanna...
HWSNBN simply ignores what Glenn put in the post itself:
ReplyDelete[yankeependragon]: And before you start hyperventalating, take a long, hard look at you chain of reasoning: Kristol and company are advocating US policy be based on both outright genocide and perpetual warfare, labeling it 'neoconservatism'. You're stating that term likewise encompasses the policies of FDR, Truman, and JFK. Ergo, through that same line of reasoning, you want US policy to be based upon those same things.
No, the first element of your syllogism is your slander of the policy of internationalism, not the actual policy. No one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare. Therefore, your argument fails from the outset.
Sure, "internationalism" can be whatever HWSNBN wants it to be for purposes of his argumentative efflux here, but we ought to talk about the actual policies as put forth by the likes of Kristol, Peters and Hindrocket.
Yankeependragon wasn't talking about "internationalism" here. HWSNBN is trying to pretend that Dubya and company are pursuing this, when in fact, they are pursuing the policies of Kristol and company as evidenced by Glenn in his original post ... but not with enough "vehemence" for the likes of Kristol and Peters. And that includes the "GWOT", as Yankeependragon noted.
Iraq is not "internationalism" by any stretch of the imagination. Dubya had Itaq on the front burner long before 9/11 and even as dishonest a person as HWSNBN should find it hard to deny that, given the outright evidence of the PNAC paper and the testimony of numerous people concerning Dubya's Iraq ambitions.
Cheers,
Thank you, Arne. A far more eloquent smack-down than I could have managed.
ReplyDeleteHere's a 30 minute inteview with Drury on Strauss and neoconservatism.
ReplyDeleteShe has first hand knowledge of Strauss. She was his student.
Irving Kristol in The Weekly Standard, August 2003, my emphasis:
ReplyDeleteNeocons do not like the concentration of services in the welfare state and are happy to study alternative ways of delivering these services. But they are impatient with the Hayekian notion that we are on "the road to serfdom." Neocons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable. People have always preferred strong government to weak government, although they certainly have no liking for anything that smacks of overly intrusive government. Neocons feel at home in today's America to a degree that more traditional conservatives do not. …But it is only to a degree that neocons are comfortable in modern America. The steady decline in our democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives--though not with those libertarian conservatives who are conservative in economics but unmindful of the culture. The upshot is a quite unexpected alliance between neocons, who include a fair proportion of secular intellectuals, and religious traditionalists. They are united on issues concerning the quality of education, the relations of church and state, the regulation of pornography, and the like, all of which they regard as proper candidates for the government's attention. And since the Republican party now has a substantial base among the religious, this gives neocons a certain influence and even power.
Just read the whole nauseating thing. Kristol declares that neocons "politely" overlook Eisenhower and Goldwater conservatism. No effing kidding....
Thanks for what is sure to become a seminal post. It's one of the best recent examinations of the neocons I've seen. I'm constantly amazed that these guys have absolutely no learning curve. And some of them are supposedly scholars and intellectuals! They're certainly not big on empiricism.
ReplyDeleteWhat you point out that's especially chilling, though, is that so many other media outlets still somehow believe that neocon policies have been successful! It really is some bizarre, parallel universe with little relation to reality.
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeleteHow about addressing my actual argument, the part about the utility (or lack thereof) of using overwhelming force to change other people's opinions. Unless, of course, you actually can see the future.
War is a blunt instrument, a very blunt instrument, and once unleashed, it has unpredictable consequences. The Allies' indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations, while understandable as a response to Nazi provocations, opened the way to Osama bin Laden's claim that anyone in the West is a legitimate target. (It's also interesting that overwhelming superiority in conventional arms also invites the targeting of civilians. If the Palestinians had Apache gunships, perhaps they wouldn't need suicide bombers.)
It seems plain to me, if not to armed libertarians, neoconservatives and their fellow travelers and apologists, that those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind...
I like your term "armed Libertarian." It pretty much describes me...
In any case, I agree with much of your argument. Mass attacks killing hundreds of thousands of civilians like we had in WWII can lead to counter productive retaliation against our forces and our cause.
That is why I am glad we are able to wage war these days with amazingly few civilian casualties. This gives us an enormous advantage when compared to terrorists who intentionally engage in the mass murder of civilians.
You will notice that most polls of the Middle East show that al Qaeda's support has collapsed during the Iraq War because the establishment of democracy run by Iraqis forced al Qaeda to focus its butchery on fellow Muslims.
The Iraqis loathe al Qaeda and the Baathists have very little support outside of a few tribes in Anbar Province.
With perfect 20/20 hindsight, our major mistake in Iraq was not holding elections and training up a de-Baathified military about a year sooner than we did.
I'm confused. Does this mean Christopher Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan are neoconservatives too?
ReplyDeletehidden imam: Indeed Hitchens at least has given his imprimatur on Strauss. According to Danny Postel:
ReplyDeleteChristopher Hitchens, an ardent advocate of the war, wrote unashamedly in November 2002 (in an article felicitously titled Machiavelli in Mesopotamia) that:
“[p]art of the charm of the regime-change argument (from the point of view of its supporters) is that it depends on premises and objectives that cannot, at least by the administration, be publicly avowed. Since Paul Wolfowitz is from the intellectual school of Leo Strauss – and appears in fictional guise as such in Saul Bellow’s novel Ravelstein – one may even suppose that he enjoys this arcane and occluded aspect of the debate.”
Sullivan is a fan of Strauss, but he has a dramatically different take on his philosophy than Drury.
ReplyDeleteThey practise the "double-truth" theory, which was first espoused by Plato in Republic and then taken up by Ibn Rushd (aka Averroes) and other Islamic philosophers. This theory teaches that there are truths for the unlettered and ignorant and truths for the intellectual and "scientist." In most cases, these philosophers limited the theory to divine scripture.
ReplyDeleteAverroes and Plato were moreover veritable examples par excellance of theologians, something no one could accuse Strauss of!
Plato and the heavily Neoplatonic-influenced Arabic philosophers held an 'emanationist' worldview, where the supreme Good (God) held the central position and all other reality expands outward in increasingly imperfect being. This worldview can easily accomodate different 'levels' of interpretation which do not, for all their varying import, contradict each other, rather they reaffirm and shed light on each other.
The post-Kantian Strauss, in stark contrast, misappropriates this idea and comes up with the amoral and anti-demoocratic 'noble lie' theory. He has to resort to the pathetic and sophistic so-called 'Straussian Reading' to impute his own views to poor Plato. This involves mainly looking for 'inconsistencies' wherein the great philosophers were supposed to have hidden their secret message. This is about as rigorous a historical method as The Bible Code.
Without the Platonic (or Neoplatonic) cosmography, this sort of 'secret decoder ring' thinking is the only way Strauss can conceive of multiple levels of meaning within a single text. The authors most assuredly did not view things this way.
Strauss was a sophist and an intellectual coward. I've read him. I further guarantee shooter and bart et al haven't. The intellectual roots of neoconservatism were rotten from the beginning. He will not be remembered except as he mainly already is: a villain.
(sorry for the strident tone, I genuinely care deeply about this)
From botocchio at 4:24pm:
ReplyDeleteWhat you point out that's especially chilling, though, is that so many other media outlets still somehow believe that neocon policies have been successful!
Delightfully ironic, isn't it? For all their literal screaming about the 'liberal media', they're utterly dependent upon it to maintain the illusion/myth that their agenda is both beneficial and successfully moving forward.
hypatia, thank you for your multiple excellent links in this thread!
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 3:54pm: No one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare.
I am taking Kristoll and company at their word. Its frankly hard to think what else they might be advocating with columns like "Kill, Don't Capture" and the like.
Kristol has never written a thing advocating "genocide" (which is the mass murder of a identifiable group of civilians) or "unending war."
Give me some quotes to back up your slander or admit that you were lying.
One second we're discussing 'neoconservatism', the next you're saying we're talking about 'internationalism'. Do make up your mind, then we can talk.
Neoconservatism is a form of internationalism. If you want to engage my argument, let's have a conversation. But stop pretending that you don't understand it.
bart said: That is why I am glad we are able to wage war these days with amazingly few civilian casualties. This gives us an enormous advantage when compared to terrorists who intentionally engage in the mass murder of civilians.
ReplyDelete150,000 killed by neoconservatives vs. how many killed by al Qaeda?
Anonymous writes:
ReplyDeleteWhy a group of intellectuals would model America's future on a form of goverment that ultimately produced tragedy is a horror to behold. It says more about their need for control and their contempt for the people of America than anything else.
Yep. And this is why the Rapturists and the anti-Rapturist Dominionist fundamentalist Christians support them. It's a perfect marriage, and a perfect storm. So nice for bart and shooter242, to see the rest of us, their fellow citizens, finally put to the sword. It's what they wish for.
Some intellectuals have always hated Democracy and have always felt that it needed to be actively "managed" to produce results. Interestingly this is the trait that links Irving Kristol the marxist with Irving Kristol the neo conservative : contempt for democracy and the will of the people.
Indeed. Shooter242 denies that this is the core of Straussian thinking, but it certainly embodies the neocons. Neither he nor Bart can explain what the War on Terror is if not perpetual war, and cannot explain what the the 'shoot 'em all' rhetoric of Kristol is if not genocide.
Or perhaps they can, but shooter242 seems only to be able to type 'LOL.' Certainly, a reasoned reply.
From Bart at 4:28pm:
ReplyDeleteThat is why I am glad we are able to wage war these days with amazingly few civilian casualties.
I'd ask if you're joking, but I know you really believe this.
Okay, granting that US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have produced, in terms of sheer numbers, fewer civilian casualties than the bombing campaigns against Germany in 1943-1945 and Japan in 1944-1945.
The problem is it isn't just the US bombing Iraq or Afghanistan (although we are using the heaviest artillery). Its also the native insurgency that's targeting civilians in both countries, as well as whatever foreign 'jihadists' have slipped into the mix. Add to that the continued abysmal state of both the infrastructure and economy in both places and you're seeing as many casualties from disease and the like as from suicide bombers.
Not what I'd call a sterling success.
Hitchens is a Trotskyite who grew dissatisfied that democratic revolutions never took place, and is now in favor of spreading it for them. That's the appeal of neoconservatism for him
ReplyDeleteIn one of his articles he said that once he made the leap towards favoring regime change he never looked back. That about sums up all his subsequent writings on Iraq, and unwillingness or inability to "look back" and reevaluate his arguments and beliefs. I suppose that's why his Iraq writings come across as so detached from reality.
And this is coming from a fan of Hitchens.
prunes: Strauss was a sophist and an intellectual coward. I've read him. I further guarantee shooter and bart et al haven't. The intellectual roots of neoconservatism were rotten from the beginning. He will not be remembered except as he mainly already is: a villain. ... (sorry for the strident tone, I genuinely care deeply about this)
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize. I think your comments are well said and I agree that Strauss misconstrued Plato and the Islamic philosophers he "used." The cowardice part is an interesting addition on your part. I've written about Plato's notion of courage, one of the four cardinal virtues in Republic. In essence, it boils down to knowing what to fear and what not to fear, a formulation that provides some insight even today about the neocon game plan.
For Plato, it is this knowledge in and of itself that forms the basis for creating a behavioral adherence to the laws of the true republic. Without this knowledge there can be no authority. Dissolving the awareness of fear and its place in our lives creates a vacuum that can be filled with any and every gorgon or demon that the political hacks can manufacture.
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteNo one is arguing for genocide or perpetual warfare.
So how will we know when the "war on terror" is over?
When the Islamic fascist movement stops waging war against non Muslims. This is not a decision being made by "neocons." The enemy is attempting to murder you and only he can decide when to stop.
This like all wars will end in time. However, as the massacre on the Indian trains has shown, the war is very much underway.
Humes Ghost and CL,
ReplyDeleteMy point is that one could have supported the Administration's decision to go to war without being a neoconservative, and there are many such people. A majority, actually. Reality is a much more complex place than Glenn's sweeping theories make it out to be.
Yes, but you picked bad examples. If you wanted to make that point someone like George Packer would have better illustrated that.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN might be catching on:
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I agree with much of your argument. Mass attacks killing hundreds of thousands of civilians like we had in WWII can lead to counter productive retaliation against our forces and our cause.
Try replacing "WWII" with "Fallujah". Think about it. And then one might get a better idea of where the likes of HWSNBN (and Kristol, Peters, and company) have gone wrong....
Cheers,
Excellent analysis. you have given the best articulation of why I so much hope that Holy Joe losses and is consigned to the dustbin of history politically. Great work.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as the massacre on the Indian trains has shown, the war is very much underway.
ReplyDeleteSo when are we going to go to war with Pakistan? Or are we going to take out some more Iraqis as retribution?
prunes said...
ReplyDeletebart said: That is why I am glad we are able to wage war these days with amazingly few civilian casualties. This gives us an enormous advantage when compared to terrorists who intentionally engage in the mass murder of civilians.
150,000 killed by neoconservatives vs. how many killed by al Qaeda?
It didn't take you long to come up with that slander.
Show me any count of actual bodies showing the Coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq killed 150,000 civilians.
Such propaganda slanders have been demolished by an even cursory analysis of the casualty reports.
http://www.logictimes.com/civilian.htm
http://www.logictimes.com/haditha.htm
Fool!
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN] You will notice that most polls of the Middle East show that al Qaeda's support has collapsed during the Iraq War because the establishment of democracy run by Iraqis forced al Qaeda to focus its butchery on fellow Muslims.
al Qaeda never had any support in Iraq ... until we started mucking around there. As it is, al Qaeda in Iraq is not the problem, much as HWSNBN would hope it so....
Cheers,
Anonymous writes:
ReplyDeleteWhy a group of intellectuals would model America's future on a form of goverment that ultimately produced tragedy is a horror to behold. It says more about their need for control and their contempt for the people of America than anything else.
The reason we keep making mistakes like invading countries we can't occupy is not just that we are ignorant of our own history. Not all of us are. It's also that those who lead us into those places DO know our history, and the history of other countries' military and political failures. And they are arrogant enough to think they can succeed if they just do it right this time.
Global dictatorship? Not a problem. Just push the people harder than Hitler did and engage the private sector by setting it free, like Stalin didn't. Release the nukes, like Clinton was afraid to. Don't fret over casualties. Dominate the skies and oceans and gain total information awareness first.
bart whined: Show me any count of actual bodies
ReplyDeleteOf course you don't trust statistical sampling. You ally with the anti-science intelligent design crowd (see hypatia's link above.)
I'm not going to argue math with an innumerate like you (again! we've been through this before!)
Suffice to say that even the minimum, official counts of civilian casualties outweigh the total number of al Qaeda victims, making neocons the greater threat to human life.
HWSNBN quotes C.L. Dodgson:
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism is a form of internationalism.
'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'
'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
Cheers,
bart bart bart...
ReplyDeleteStop conflating the Baathists with al Qeada. They aren't the same. You are smart enough to know they aren't the same. But you insist on pretending they're the same in the hopes of spreading confusion.
As noted in the news of the day. The terrorists are operating out of Pakistan. So why the hell are we in Iraq.
bart: No one is to blame for the Baathist and al Qaeda mass murder of civilians in Iraq except for the murderers themselves.
ReplyDeleteI think your sense of responsibility--or who gets the body bags dropped off on their front step--is sorely immoral but typically 'Merican. Everyone knew that Iraq was a Pandora's box. Hussein maintained power because he understood the tribal dynamics at work and how ruthlessly murderous they were.
That's why the US supported him for so long. They used him to maintain control over a region that fit into US interests in the region. They were willing to look the other way because previous admins understood the chaos that would ensue were he to lose power.
Either through ignorance or in a deliberate attempt to destabilize the region, the Bush admin lifted the lid off of this Pandora's box. Either way, they are complict in every murder, assassination, and killing that the insurgents or terrorists do or indeed our own soldiers perpetrate.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThis like all wars will end in time. However, as the massacre on the Indian trains has shown, the war is very much underway....
My, what progress we've made, eh? But Baghdad makes Mumbai look like a walk in the park.
Then there's Rummy, vowing to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan four years after saying we've mopped 'em up....
Cheers,
If the neo-cons are failing, it's due to their own choices. I've found that Fox News is a good way to get a bead on what the neo-cons are pushing from one day to the next, and the issues you mentioned are some of the prime examples.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Iran, they had no case for action, and action would have been the farthest thing from being in the best interests of anyone involved. The IAEA stated in no uncertain terms in every one of their reports on Iran that there was no evidence that Iran was diverting any nuclear materials to any sort of weapons program. The UN Security Council Presidential Statement (referred to often as a resolution, which it WAS NOT) in March that's constantly referenced due to its request for Iran to resume it's TEMPORARY suspension of uranium enrichment "for the purpose of confidence to be built in the international community" specifically stated IN THE FIRST SENTENCE that it was every NNPT signatory's RIGHT to enrich uranium for the purpose of nuclear power... it's logical to assume that, for Iran whose main resource is oil, they would want to use nuclear power so as to free up more oil resources for export, increasing revenue. To militarily go after Iran would be to attack China and Russia as well, due to their close economic and strategic ties. A war with China and Russia is the farthest thing from being in the best interests of anyone concerned.
Regarding N. Korea, Pyongyang issued a statement last week, around the same time as the Missle tests, chastised the Bush administration for large scale military maneuvers in the Pacific (the logical impotus for the DPRK flexing its muscles by launching a few ballistic missles). The exact words were "the U.S. should stop at once such reckless moves of seriously threatening and destroying the world peace and stability." They pointed to the naval exersise in the following statement: "RIMPAC-2006, the joint military exercises now under way in the waters of the Pacific, is also a naval offensive operation, pursuant to the U.S. strategy for domination over the Asia-Pacific region, and an escalation of the U.S. aggressive moves for a new war." If anything, it's the neo-con aggressiveness that's bringing about the dangerous situation, not that it could ever possibly be the solution. Mutual Assured Destruction is (I can't believe I'm agreeing with a sentence that came from the mouth of Ann Coulter) not a threat any of us want to have to live through again, and their aggressive policies (the neo cons that is) are motivating foreign powers to bulk up their militaries in fear of a "preventive" strike.
It's rediculous that they could even try to highlight Hamas and rocket attacks on Israel after a week of indiscriminate killings of civilians in the IDF invasion of Gaza.
The people who will suffer the most from these policies are the ordinary american citizens who will be forced to live in fear of war (constantly, in a very orwellian fashion), are losing their personal freedoms, and have recently been told that their retirement benefits will be severely diminished due to over-spending by the bush administration (honestly, $450,000,000,000 per year plus the war on terror plus Iraq plus Afghanistan is TOO MUCH MONEY to spend on "defence" when we are the main aggressors).
Their argument that the Cons aren't Neo-Con enough is sickening.
The Hidden Imam writes: My point is that one could have supported the Administration's decision to go to war without being a neoconservative, and there are many such people. A majority, actually. Reality is a much more complex place than Glenn's sweeping theories make it out to be.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and? I’m a non-neocon who made the mistake of supporting the war in Iraq for reasons I would deem to be in the realpolitik camp. But the neocons were in charge of the timing, the planning and the prosecution. Further, it may be that there was no way to topple Saddam that was feasible in terms of blood and treasure, ours and the Iraqis’. It was my error to believe an Administration that is in the grips of the neocons when it was claimed that invading Iraq would not exact disproportionate cost.
But none of that has anything to do with Glenn’s post, which is not about “sweeping theories,” but rather addresses the nature of the neocons, their beliefs, and the post-911 political realignment in which they play a central role, all of which is accurate.
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeletebart bart bart...Stop conflating the Baathists with al Qeada. They aren't the same. You are smart enough to know they aren't the same.
We were talking about murdering civilians. In this, the Baathists and al Qaeda are essentially the same except that al Qaeda is the only one engaging in suicide attacks.
As noted in the news of the day. The terrorists are operating out of Pakistan. So why the hell are we in Iraq.
Zarqawi has been operating openly out of Iraq since at least 2002. Zarqawi was underwriting the PATH Train bomb plot before we terminated him with extreme prejudice.
"Neoconservatism isn't fascism. For one, all the fascist regimes that have existed create parallel political institutions, particularly rival organizations that compete with gov't for the legitimate use of force."
ReplyDeleteI've asked repeatedly today for someone to supply some compelling empirical evidence that neoconservatism is not a form of fascism. So far, this is the only concrete attempt, so all due thanks for giving me *something* to consider.
That said, this isn't much upon which to hang a defining distinction. To repeat my question: if neoconservatives had their unobstructed way, both in foreign policy and domestically, in what empirical sense would America then be distinguishable from a fascist state?
If all you can give me is that, unlike previous fascist governments, the neocons would not have created parallel political institutions to rival those of the government in the use of force, then... well, that seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. Certainly, life under an authoritarian right-wing government could still be qualitatively fascist without this one rather incidental feature. What's more, it wouldn't surprise me if, under unbridled neoconservative rule, churches were allowed to rival the authority of government, so it might even be that there's no empirical distinction here at all.
Can anyone give me something more than this? Or may I infer from the lack of concrete examples of difference that we are generally in agreement--and therefore in disagreement with Glenn--that unobstructed neoconservatism would indeed result in something like a fascist state?
I'd mention again that Zarqawi was in Kurdish controlled territory until the start of the war but the dent in wall where I've been pounding my head looks like its about to give way......
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime there are 163 dead in India, bin Laden is still alive and well but its all OK cause we got Zarqawi and Saddam's lawyers all have a life expectancy of about 20 minutes.
He doesn't "hear" it. He makes it up.
ReplyDeleteBart said: 'al Qaeda is the only one engaging in suicide attacks'
ReplyDeleteHow do you know this? Were the suicide bombers polled or queried prior to their termination?
One other feature of fascism is its use of brute force on its own citizens. We don't have brownshirts here, nor is it likely that we will. They aren't necessary. Yet.
ReplyDeleteThat's 2 differences between us and fascism.
sigh....
ReplyDeleteRolling Stone:
Despite press reports that they had asked Abu Musab Zarqawi for assistance, there is no information to confirm that. It is known that the members discussed the possibility of approaching Zarqawi but none of them knew him or had any access to him.
New York Daily News:
According to Lebanese security sources, two Syrian men put Hammoud in touch with Hassan Nabaat and Hani al-Shanti. Lebanese authorities arrested both men in December, along with 11 others who were planning to set up a "military infrastructure" in Lebanon and forge links to the now-deceased terror kingpin Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Newsday:
There was disagreement on how close the suspected terrorists were to al-Qaida or whether they had contacts, as one report said, with the late Iraqi terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
A Washington source with knowledge of the situation said, "The use of the term 'real deal' isn't consistent with what people have been saying in private. It's not considered a huge threat."
"One other feature of fascism is its use of brute force on its own citizens. We don't have brownshirts here, nor is it likely that we will. They aren't necessary. Yet."
ReplyDelete"That's 2 differences between us and fascism."
I'm not asking whether we are a fascist state right now. My question is whether we would become a fascist state if the neocons had their unobstructed way. Pointing out that brute force against US citizens is not happening "yet" does nothing at all to answer this question.
But it's worth asking whether you think the neocons would use brute force against US citizens if it became politically possible for them to do so. Do you? I do. It's only a small step from disingenously inciting to violence by publishing addresses of political enemies, calling them traitors, etc., to explicitly calling for violence against them. If the political climate would tolerate explicit calls for violence against liberals and other dissidents, do you doubt for a moment that Horowitz and the boys would have their own version of the Brownshirts out there, violently persecuting their enemies?
Anonymous, see the Newiert essay I linked to.
ReplyDelete"Zarqawi was underwriting the PATH Train bomb plot" bart says. And this "factual" information is coming from... where? It seems that the neo-cons are grasping at straws these days, the sad part is they have a propaganda system in place that's strong enough to convince certain individuals (hey bart!) that these straws are actually sticks of gold.
ReplyDeleteThe current incumbants have done more in the past 5 years to increase the threat of terrorism than the U.S. did in the 10 years prior to 9/11... if that's what happened then, what will happen next time? Its the job of our government to serve the will of the people, not create that will. People these days are very easily led, and the will thats being created in certain circles is far from the best interests of the populace.
The book here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679429956/002-2805213-7859243?v=glance&n=283155
Russia 2010 : and What It Means for the World
by Daniel Yergin, may be of interest to wingnuts and traitors alike. Published in 1993, it was an attempt to sketch the paths Russia's politics might take between authoritarianism and free markets. The short answer was that somewhere in between was likely, and so far that's not been proven wrong.
Imagine a similar analysis of our future in the US. The event that would most likely tip us over into fascism would be a collapse into poverty, thanks to our debt. In that scenario, fascism would begin as a response to unrest. At least, that's when we could all recognize it as fascism.
But another point that could be made is that history doesn't repeat itself. Just as Russia will develop its own form of government, so will the US develop its own form of fascism in response to economic convulsions.
And to answer your question, no, neoconservatives coming to power would not turn us into a fascist state.
ReplyDeleteFascism comes to power to fill a void. It comes to power when invited in by conservatives who need it to maintain order when democracy has broken down. It takes a crisis of democracy.
Whenever conservative can maintain power without resorting to use of fascism, it does so.
The problem is that the current administration is laying the groundwork for fascism to take root. But the neoconservatives themselves are not fascist.
What Neiwert is saying is that the movement, however, could morph into fascism. We've moved closer towards what fascism is.
This is what we are fighting against in Iraq.
ReplyDeletehttp://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183865.php
It's really simple. Rummy said, "go massive, clean it all up. Things related [to 9/11] and not."
ReplyDeleteThe things related were in Afghanistan.
The things not related were in Iraq.
Iraq was meant to be a) insurance against losing Saudi oil, and b) neutering an enemy of Israel.
I must say, discussing neo-cons at this length without mentioning Israel is like describing the Catholic Church without so much as mentioning the Pope.
"without this one rather incidental feature."
ReplyDeleteThe feature wasn't incidental. It was one of the core parts of the movement. The violent force of the fascists was part of the rebirth of the nation; doing what the gov't was incapable of doing.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart said: 'al Qaeda is the only one engaging in suicide attacks'
How do you know this? Were the suicide bombers polled or queried prior to their termination?
1) Because al Qaeda takes credit for the suicide attacks while the Baathists have consistently rejected these attacks.
2) In fact, we do capture the people involved in these attacks either beforehand or after the attack fails to go off.
Indeed, the military has formed a very good profile of these bombers.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/
story.php?storyId=5257052
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/
content/article/2005/05/14/
AR2005051401270.html
But it's worth asking whether you think the neocons would use brute force against US citizens if it became politically possible for them to do so. Do you?
ReplyDeleteI see "necessary" as the operative word. Substitute "necessary" and I'd say yes. I doubt they would think too much about "possible" unless they get so beaten down between now and then that they actually worry about consequences.
I guess I think it depends on events. How far will they go if they feel pushed? Well, how will they be pushed?
If they all are looking forward to cushy private-sector jobs, why would they actually break heads to hang on to power? Say they lose the next presidential election. Why wouldn't they shrug, keep paying off their friends, hire more lawyers, and keep going? That's how they do business. They would leave Congress an occupied protectorate of their corporate empire—more safely in their pocket than Iraq is, and as long as Iraq is a problem and OBL is free they can keep scaring us.
That's why I'd put the trigger at national unrest caused by an Depression-style economic collapse—not a lost election. Organizing brownshirts is not a hobby . . . and their only function is that they lie beyond the control of the army and police. If you control the army and police, what do you need brownshirts for? Remember what happened to them anyway.
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: 'al Qaeda is the only one engaging in suicide attacks'
How do you know this? Were the suicide bombers polled or queried prior to their termination?
Q: How can you tell the difference between an al Qaeda bombing and an Ba'athist/Sunni/Shia bombing?
A: If they blew themselves up, it's al Qaeda.
Thought that was obvious.
Cheers,
phd9:
ReplyDeletesigh....
Rolling Stone:
Despite press reports that they had asked Abu Musab Zarqawi for assistance, there is no information to confirm that. It is known that the members discussed the possibility of approaching Zarqawi but none of them knew him or had any access to him.....
Don't confuse HWSNBN with the facts. It gets in the way of his truthiness.
Cheers,
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteNo, my point is that "Neocons" have become this bogeyman for some people, including, I guess, you and Glenn. It's a lazy shorthand that simplifies reality to a degree that employing it distorts more than it clarifies. And, speaking of which, this statement,
"But the neocons were in charge of the timing, the planning and the prosecution.", is beyond me. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice -- all Neocons? The new definition of Neocon = those who disagree with Kos.
Great, great post. Hits it right on the head.
ReplyDeletebart:
ReplyDeleteIf you post links by typing (a href="the url your pointing to")the highlighted text(/a) only using the less-than greater-than brackets instead of parentheses then we'd be able to follow your links.
hume's ghost:
ReplyDeleteBingo.
I might add that if fascism is to rise, then it would not just be as a response by authority to violent unrest (that's the National Guard's job), although that would be bad enough, but a response by those who believe govt is not doing enough. Just as the neocons are now saying.
In other words, a crisis after the neocons have been pushed OUT of power might be more likely to trigger fascism than if they STAY in power. Further, what if the next president is a Republican who is loath to take up the nascent dictatorship that has been bequeathed him?
Then it would be the extreme neocons out of favor who would be forming the brownshirts, to fight the hordes of poor (brown?) Americans that an economic collapse has produced. Maybe they'll call themselves the Minutemen.
As I said, we are a few steps away from that horror, and it may never happen.
misneach said...
ReplyDelete"Zarqawi was underwriting the PATH Train bomb plot" bart says. And this "factual" information is coming from... where? It seems that the neo-cons are grasping at straws these days...
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/
osama_lackey_a_psycho_path_regionalnews_
niles_lathem_and_andy_soltis.htm
The current incumbants have done more in the past 5 years to increase the threat of terrorism than the U.S. did in the 10 years prior to 9/11...
Number of al Qaeda attacks on US citizens outside of the Middle East since we took the war to their homes countries - ZERO.
bart, their "home countries"?
ReplyDeletedo you have a map in your bunker?
Do you know how to use a map?
bart can't tell the difference between any two Arabs.
ReplyDeleteIt's the only way to interpret his counterfactual comments.
do you have a map in your bunker?
ReplyDeleteDo you know how to use a map?
Yeah it's got a big section just east of Israel that reads "here there be monsters!"
1) "The feature [of using force outside the state] wasn't incidental. It was one of the core parts of the movement. The violent force of the fascists was part of the rebirth of the nation; doing what the gov't was incapable of doing."
ReplyDeleteIt may have been historically essential as a means to fascism, but that is not the same as saying that it is an essential feature of fascism itself. If the neocons succeed in establishing a fascist gov't in the US without using those means, then it will still be a fascist gov't, despite the difference in how it came to exist.
2) "Organizing brownshirts is not a hobby . . . and their only function is that they lie beyond the control of the army and police. If you control the army and police, what do you need brownshirts for?"
Why don't both of you read Glenn's latest post, and tell me honestly if you still think that the Brownshirts are not already here...
I love all the analysis of the NeoConservatives and the great arguments made on Fascism, here in the comments, but all of these ideals are just that without a suit to display them. Again, I have to ask if GWBush is not the man to deploy these components of the larger NC agenda, who is? I don't see anything shy of a full abrogation of the government by Richard Cheney ever manifesting itself in the near future. The brains have to have a body and where is this great vehicle in the form of real electable human being that can carry water for this crowd?
ReplyDeleteGlenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteInstead, what has dominated our political conflicts over the last five years are terrorism-related issues -- Iraq, U.S. treatment of detainees, domestic surveillance, attacks on press freedoms, executive power abuses, Iran, the equating of dissent with treason.
It is one's positions on those issues -- and, more specifically, whether one agrees with the neoconservative approach which has dominated the Bush administration's approach to those issues -- which now determines one's political orientation.
For a perfect example of just what issue positions now determine one’s political orientation, take a look at how Andrew Sullivan has been defined.
Now one can hardly have been more supportive of the war than Sullivan, indeed, from the left many would define him as a “neo-con” for his strident support for the war.
But an odd thing happens to Sullivan, when he’s being defined by some on the right. He has been a very vocal opponent of torture and U.S. treatment of detainees and executive power abuses. And he’s not afraid to take on people like John Hinderaker for their false statements on these issues.
Bizarrely, this vocal supporter of the war, because of these positions is now even characterized as being “anti-war” for being against torture. National Review’s Mark Levin put it this way:
"Andrew Sullivan considers himself an opponent of torture. But he's not. He's against the war in Iraq, which has ended a great deal of state-sponsored torture, not to mention state-sponsored rape, state-sponsored executions, and all the other inhumanity unleashed by maniacs like Saddam Hussein,"
And Sullivan responded :
So now I'm not only not a conservative, I opposed the war against Saddam. In the unhinged world of the Republican far-right, anything is possible.
In short, the people who Glenn Greenwald describes are demanding total compliance with executive power abuses, support of torture, and attacks on press freedoms – anything less, and you will be defined as a liberal and a traitor – even if you totally support the war.
You must accept the entire package, or you will not be accepted into their exclusive club.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteYou heard it here first...good post Glenn.
We heard it from you last. Shooter can't even praise a post from Glenn without distorting facts from the get-go in the process.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePaul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteDenial Is Still Operative
I just reached Paul's first comment.
Excellent comment, Paul. It may be premature but I wonder if there is any further the nail can be driven. Perhaps someone manages to countersink it later on.
No, my point is that "Neocons" have become this bogeyman for some people, including, I guess, you and Glenn. It's a lazy shorthand that simplifies reality to a degree that employing it distorts more than it clarifies.
ReplyDeleteIt's you who are simplifying things. I never said that anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq is a neocon, and I don't believe that to be the case. There are many people who supported the invasion for all sorts of reasons that have little to do with neoconservatism.
In fact, I noted expressly in the post that "neoconservatism" is a term that is frequently used but infrequently defined, and I provided a specific definition of its defining beliefs precisely because it has a specific meaning to me and I don't use it as lazy shorthand.
How bizarre that you could have read my post, which defines that term with great specificity, and then come and say that I think it applies to anyone who was pro-war and that I'm just using it as "lazy shorthand." It's hard to believe that you read the post before writing these comments, because your characterizations of my arguments aren't just different, but are the opposite, of the argument I quite clearly made.
phd9:
ReplyDeletebart:
If you post links by typing (a href="the url your pointing to")the highlighted text(/a) only using the less-than greater-than brackets instead of parentheses then we'd be able to follow your links.
More tricks:
To insert a link, with a blue "text" clicky:
"This is THE CLICKY TEXT which should make a blue clicky."
To tell people how to do this, you have to know how to "escape" the '<' and '>' characters, so they are printed as such, and aren't taken as the tag delimiters themselves. For instance, italics are done like this: italic text
So: here's how you'd format your plaintext to get that in to your explanation:
<i>italic text</i>
And to tell people how to put in the '&' character, you do this:
&
Some of it is described here.
Don't expect HWSNBN to learn, though. I gave him a clicky-maker link a while back that formats the the link tags ready to cut'n'paste, but like with eveything else around here, he didn't bother to edjoomakate himself.
Cheers,
Just look at Joe's voting record and it is very plain that he is a progressive. Anything else is just bad spinning like the Bushies.
ReplyDeletebart said:
ReplyDeleteThe schism you speak of is between those who favor internationalism and the use of military force when necessary and those who favor isolationism and oppose the use of military force for anything but defense of homeland.
shooter242 said:
That is the fundamental view of the world that seperates the current camps....
* If one DOESN"T believe that the US is really under constant attack, all the aspects of war, courts, torture, etc., are arbitrary and needless.
* If one DOES believe the US is a target then it is all in the cause of self-defense, and unquestionably appropriate.
Bart and shooter242, do either of you believe it's possible for the US to not be at war with anyone at some point in the future?
Whoops!!!
ReplyDeleteWow, between the "preview" and the posting, Blogger ate my quoted characters!!!!
Anyway, to put in a special character; you use the <ampersand> character first, followed by the character name ('<' = "lt", '>' = "gt", '&' = "amp"), followed by a semi-colon.
Thus. the left angle bracket would be then (try this again):
& lt ;
(with no spaces inbetween).
Cheers,
I dunno, Bart. Strikes me that its all about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, ennit? Speaking as a Canadian, I find your characterization of American 'internationalism' versus 'isolationism' wrongheaded.
ReplyDeleteBut more than that, I find it humourously irrelevant.
Here's the truth, my friend: You guys screwed it up. The reality is, you blew it, you shot your wad. The American sun is setting.
The reality is that you are running trillion dollar trade deficits and trillion dollar budget deficits. You don't make anything anymore that anyone wants. You're living beyond your means and burning through your grandchildren's futures, drunk on delusions of empire.
Already all of your economic fundamentals are shot to hell. You guys are coasting. Hell, China owns your ass now, when you look at where your trade balances and debt markers are.
The worldwide consensus of America as the planets leader is gone. The Muslim world hates you, and for good reason... you keep invading their countries and supporting their worst dictators. Europe and Latin America have fallen away. The honeymoon with Russia is over. Your last big economic/political ally, Japan, has now publicly begun to talk about striking out on its own. The consensus that America should dominate the planet, the consensus that America should dominate, the planet is coming to an end.
And replaced with what? Economic clout? ROTFL. Not any more. International law? Not after you guys finished shitting all over it.
Your war machine? Take another look... Iraq has all but chewed it to pieces. You don't have the guts to take on North Korea, which is a good thing. You don't have the manpower to hit Iran. So what's left? Knock over Syria or some little pissant no-account country? That just accelerates the problem.
You want to see your future? Look at the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century, or look at the British Empire in the 20th century.
Economically destitute, politically ineffectual, merely a military power in steady decline. A brute out of touch and out of place. Go America.
And all thanks to people like you.
I think historians will look back on the American era with a sense of missed opportunity. You guys... You guys coulda been something. You coulda been great. You coulda stood for something brighter and better. And for a while, you did.
But then, you decided that being tough was better than being great. That being rich was better than being good. That being selfish was better than... Well, you get the idea.
Well, its just about over. Katrina showed us that. A country which couldn't save one of its own greatest cities, which can't be bothered to rebuild it, that's just a joke, ennit? Katrina showed us what's behind the American facade, not very much.
Sure, you'll huff and puff for a while. But the writing is on the wall, and it ain't pretty.
The new order that's coming is going to belong to China, and Europe, probably to Japan and India, perhaps to Brazil, and definitely to Russia.
America will be in there too. A humiliated America, a bankrupt and ineffectual America. An America without credibility. But hey, you'll be one of the new list of great powers. You'll be the guys who used to rule the world, but blew it.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeleteBart and shooter242, do either of you believe it's possible for the US to not be at war with anyone at some point in the future?
Of course. The trend in the world is toward democracy and peace. Democracies do not attack one another. That is why the democratization of the ME is so important.
The trick is to get from now to then without some al Qaeda whack job using a nuke on NYC or DC.
From Bart at 5:58pm:
ReplyDeleteThis is what we are fighting against in Iraq.
This is what we're causing in Iraq.
Democracies do not attack one another? ROTFL. With historical illiteracy like that on side, no wonder you guys are in a race to the bottom. have fun.
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 7:37pm:
ReplyDeleteThe trend in the world is toward democracy and peace. Democracies do not attack one another.
A few counter-examples come to mind:
War of 1812: The United States and the United Kingdom (popularly elected parliament with a token monarch).
World War II: Germany (with democratically elected National Socialist dictator) attacks Poland, France, the UK, and declares war on the US (democracies all).
I would further point out that democracies attack other nations, not always with clear justification or reason: The Six-Day War, the Israeli attack on Iraqi's nuclear facility, the Spanish-American War, and the US invasion of Iraq come to mind.
With historical illiteracy like that on side, no wonder you guys are in a race to the bottom. have fun.
ReplyDeleteDon't pull that "you guys" ploy on me.
From Bart at 5:03pm:
ReplyDeleteThat is like blaming the US for SS murders of the French who were assisting the Allied liberation of France in 1944.
No, Bart. Its pointing out the moral responsibility of the invader to make sure that, if they reduce a country to so much rubble and wreckage, it damn well bears responsibility for the suffering and incidential deaths that causes.
But then I get the sense morality doesn't factor into these discussions with you.
From Bart at 5:03pm:
ReplyDeleteIf you are unwilling to war against terrorists because they threaten to murder civilians, you might as well surrender now.
Surrender what to what, exactly?
As has been pointed out numerous times to you, and which you yourself have actually acknowledged, "terrorism" is a tactic and not a fixed ideology or system of government.
Are you suggesting we 'surrender' our system of governance to Al Qaeda or the Tamil Tigers or Basque Separatists or Quebec Separatists or...what exactly? You might as well be suggesting we hand our economy over to bullets of a certain caliber, and the Courts over to the care of Butterfly Knives.
But then you aren't suggesting that, are you? You're making the readily obvious point that 'terrorists' will always target civilians and we shouldn't allow this to deter us on our march to the sea, er, "victory" (however you choose to define "victory" this week).
Once again, on this we agree. Do we likewise agree that, having invaded another sovereign country and all but destroyed its capacity to govern or defend itself (at least in the near term), we bear a moral responsibility to its people to provide that security while they at least try to rebuild?
Yes? No?
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteOf course. The trend in the world is toward democracy and peace. Democracies do not attack one another. That is why the democratization of the ME is so important.
The trick is to get from now to then without some al Qaeda whack job using a nuke on NYC or DC.
Impressive. Didn't see Rove's lips move much at all there.
Cheers,
Speaking of John Dean, he was on Air America Tues am discussing his new book and said, as if to confirm Glenn's thesis:
ReplyDelete"I really haven't changed my views in 40 years, and I find myself left of center."
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2006/07/quote-of-day-john-dean-says-yes-hes.html
Valdron said...
ReplyDeleteHere's the truth, my friend: You guys screwed it up. The reality is, you blew it, you shot your wad. The American sun is setting.
Uh huh. I have been hearing that one for years.
When I was in university, Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda were touring around telling us that Euro industrial planning was the wave of the future.
Then, it was unbeatable Japanese efficiency through collective effort.
Now, it is the unstoppable Chinese.
:::yawn:::
Here is the bottom line...
Since the Reagan tax reforms and the opening of our international trade from Reagan through Clinton, the US' 5% of world population has gone from creating about 25% of world GDP when Reagan came into office to nearly 33% today.
There is no other modern economy which comes close to our growth rate and the only economies which exceed the US are playing catch up by adopting our free market model.
You and I will be long dead before China's masses even come close to matching the gross wealth creation of our much smaller population.
I like Canada and most Canadians I have met, but you need to face some facts:
Your economy is growing at about 2/3 of our rate of growth.
Indeed, we grow more in one year than the value of your entire economy.
Your unemployment rate is a point and a half higher than the US. Indeed, the last time we had your unemployment rate was following the 9/11 recession, and that was the worst in a decade.
Per capita GDP in Canada is less than 80% of the US per capita GDP and falling.
Maybe you want to tune up your own economy before cracking about our NASCAR economy.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 5:58pm:
This is what we are fighting against in Iraq.
This is what we're causing in Iraq.
Right. A we caused 9/11 as well...
Hate America first!
Valdron said...
ReplyDeleteDemocracies do not attack one another? ROTFL. With historical illiteracy like that on side, no wonder you guys are in a race to the bottom. have fun.
OK, historian, when was the last time a democracy attacked another democracy...
You should check out the very interesting BBC 3 part series entitled 'The Power of Nightmares' (beg, borrow, steal it!). It parallels the rise of radical conservatism in the East (Islamists) and West (neoconservatives). Whilst the methods they employ to impliment their "grand vision" differ they are, at their core, fundamentally the same.
ReplyDeletenews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm