One of the most deceitful though commonly used tactics of Bush followers is to characterize positions which they dislike as something that is espoused only by the fringe Left, even though the position is held by people across the ideological spectrum. Thus, only the Far Left opposes the war in Iraq, even though scores of retired generals, life-long conservatives, and a majority of Americans have long been against it. And only the Far Left opposes the President's warrantless eavesdropping on American citizens, even though some of the most eloquent and forceful opponents of warrantless eavesdropping are long-time conservatives who believe in the rule of law and a restrained federal government. And only the Far Left dislikes President Bush, even though his approval ratings are at near historic lows.
The latest application of this tiresome tactic is the claim that only terrorist-loving Leftists (like John Paul Stevens and Anthony Kennedy) believe that all detainees in United States custody are entitled to the most basic standards of humane treatment guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions. In fact, that principle has been accepted and tacitly assumed to be true for decades by foreign policy experts of both parties, and the idea that there was a group of prisoners whom the U.S. could subject to any treatment it wanted without any limitations of any kind was considered a fringe, crackpot idea -- as dangerous as it is deranged.
That's why, as this new Newsweek article from Michael Isikoff and Stuart Taylor reports, senior Bush administration officials were horrified by the demands from Dick Cheney and associates that administration lawyers find a way to create a zone of lawlessness -- an "outer space" -- where the U.S. could subject detainees to even the most barbaric treatment without any restraints:
White House hard-liners, led by Vice President Dick Cheney and his uncompromising lawyer, David Addington, made it clear that there was only one acceptable answer. One day, Bowker recalls, a colleague explained the goal: to "find the legal equivalent of outer space"—a "lawless" universe. As Bowker understood it, the idea was to create a system where detainees would have no legal rights and U.S courts would have no power to intervene.
After seeing a Justice Department memo arguing that Qaeda and Taliban prisoners did not even deserve basic protections under the Geneva Conventions, they warned that the administration was inviting an enormous backlash, both from U.S. courts and foreign allies. It would also, they feared, jeopardize President George W. Bush's plans to try such prisoners in specially created military courts.
"Even those terrorists captured in Afghanistan ... are entitled to the fundamental humane treatment standards of ... the Geneva Conventions," William Howard Taft IV, the State Department legal counselor and Bowker's boss, wrote in a Jan. 23, 2002, memo obtained by NEWSWEEK. In particular, Taft argued, the United States has always followed one provision of the Geneva Conventions—known as Common Article 3—which "provides the minimal standards" of treatment that even "terrorists captured in Afghanistan" deserve.
The principle that the Geneva Conventions set a minimum standard of treatment for all human beings in the custody of civilized countries is not some new pacifist theory cooked up last year by Ward Churchill. Instead, that principle is the consensus understanding that has long existed in this country, as understood by Democrats and Republicans alike. The fringe, radical theory is the insistence that the U.S. can and should operate beyond the law, and that nothing, and certainly no effete human rights treaty, can restrict the omnipotent will of the President when it comes to defending the nation.
As the Newsweek article notes, even senior Bush officials now fear that the Hamdan decision -- exactly as I argued yesterday -- will not only have far-reaching implications for limiting presidential power in all areas (far beyond just military commissions), but will also doom the administration's legal defenses to accusations that it has broken the law with its warrantless surveillance activities, among other extremist and lawless programs:
Administration officials and Washington lawyers are still digesting the text of the ruling, but it is already becoming clear that it could have ripple effects that extend far beyond the trial of Hamdan and other Guantánamo prisoners. . . . .
Some legal scholars and current and former administration officials believe the case could undermine the secret foreign detention centers and the NSA eavesdropping program, two cornerstones of the terror war. "This is an extremely damaging decision for presidential power," says a former senior administration lawyer, who asked for anonymity owing to his intimate involvement in the legal wrangling over prisoner treatment. "And it was largely a self-inflicted wound." The bitter irony: an administration determined to expand executive power may have caused a serious contraction.
The tough guys in the administration who scoffed at legal limits were warned that, by ignoring the long-standing mandates of the Geneva Conventions, they could be subjecting U.S. personnel to prosecution for war crimes, a threat which they apparently failed to take seriously. They're taking it seriously now:
"This has opened up a can of worms," says Sen. Lindsay Graham, a South Carolina Republican. "You could have a situation if we don't bring some restraint where anybody who has done anything to an Al Qaeda suspect that's harsh could be prosecuted." Bowker says he and other State Department lawyers specifically warned about just such a scenario during the early debates. "The implications of this—for potentially being arrested and tried in other countries—is certainly a little scary," says Ted Olson, the former solicitor general.
There seems to be a common perception among many Bush critics -- one which is a not-very-distant relative of all-out defeatism -- that something as weak and unmuscular as a lofty Supreme Court ruling isn't going to have any effect on the Bush administration, and that they are just laughing at the idea that what the Supreme Court says matters. But that is simply not what senior Justice Department lawyers and senior administration officials are doing in the wake of Hamdan.
The Supreme Court unquestionably rejected the very theories which the Bush administration has been using to defend themselves from accusations of criminal conduct. The ruling in Hamdan stripped those defenses away and the lawbreakers in the administration are left standing exposed. There is simply no question that the five-Justice majority in Hamdan would reject with equal vigor, at least, the administration's claim that the AUMF authorized them to eavesdrop in violation of FISA and/or that the President has the inherent authority to violate Congressional law in the area of national security.
That means that the administration has no defenses to fend off charges that they deliberately violated the criminal law -- and continue to do so -- by eavesdropping on Americans without warrants, or torturing people in violation of the Geneva Conventions and/or the McCain Amendment, or violating the National Security Act of 1947 by concealing major intelligence activities from Congress. Those are criminal offenses. And the Supreme Court just expressed unbridled hostility towards their only defenses they have to those crimes. Anyone who suggests that that is a meaningless development and that Bush officials are unaffected by them has embraced a cartoon super-villain version of the administration which is just not real.
Beyond that, the Supreme Court in Hamdan deliberately laid at least the theoretical foundation for high officials in the Bush administration to be charged with war crimes. They expressly ruled that the military commissions violate those Conventions, and if any prisoners were to be executed by virtue of commissions which violated Common Article 3, or if detainees are deliberately and systematically mistreated in violation of that provision, that would be a war crime, by definition. I simply don't believe that there are government officials who are subjected to those sorts of suggestions from the U.S. Supreme Court who are not taking them seriously.
No government is invulnerable. Far greater and more powerful political leaders than George Bush have met very ignominious ends after flying very high and appearing invulnerable for a long time. For every extremist action undertaken by the radicals in the administration, there were high-level conservative political appointees telling them that what they were doing was illegal, that it was dangerous and radical, and that it could have serious consequences for them. But they opted to believe that might makes right, and that their superior might entitled them to act without limits of any kind, including those imposed by the law, because nobody was powerful enough to hold them accountable. That was true then, but it likely will not always be true.
They long ago lost the shield of popularity. The Supreme Court just ruled against them, and in the process, strongly insinuated that they may be war criminals and without any valid defenses to accusations of repeated criminal acts. Even their Congressional allies smell blood and are making threats and demanding concessions. And behind their unprecedentedly fortified walls of secrecy undoubtedly lurk the most incriminating, still-concealed revelations yet, and it is only a matter of time before we learn of those. Bush critics seems to assume that Bush officials are almost divinely protected from any meaningful consequences from their behavior, but it's a very good bet, at this point, that that comforting assumption is not shared by Bush officials.
UPDATE: This Digby post from today analyzes political strategies based upon polling data, and it bolsters the point that the positions which are most frequently demonized as being part of the "fringe Left" are, in fact, mainstream views which Democrats ought to be embracing much more enthusiastically. Many Democrats have internalized the false Republican accusation that their views are seen as radical and rejected by most Americans, and they consequently run away from aggressively espousing any view -- and particularly run away from any criticism of the administration's abuses of power. Just ask Russ Feingold about that.
But as Digby persuasively argues based on this data, it is precisely that fear of articulating a clear and principled position, and the related fear of standing up aggressively to the administration's abuses, that is the Democrats' greatest problem. That's because most Americans know this that administration has gone terribly awry. But quite sensibly, before they put in Democrats in power, they want to know what Democrats are going to do about it, what they will do differently. Holding Republicans accountable for their corruption and excesses is, Digby documents, something which most Americans want.
Glenn Greenwald for Congress in 2008.
ReplyDeleteWe need someone who will read legislation before voting on it, for a change.
The principle that the Geneva Conventions sets a minimum standard of treatment for all human beings in the custody of civilized countries is not some new pacifist theory cooked up over by Ward Churchill.
ReplyDeleteActually, the spin on Hamdan is even worse than that:
From the up is down, black is white, wrong is right and day is night advocates over at PowerClowns, we have a bit of historical revisionism going on that would make even George Orwell gasp.
Now if I understand John Hinderaker correctly, the reason the United States originally joined on to the Geneva Conventions was to advocate that U.S. soldiers would be killed rather than captured.
Yes, you read that right. The purpose of the Geneva Conventions is to encourage the killing rather than capture of enemies. So, when a U.S.soldier raises his hands in the air, without a weapon, we want our enemy to shoot him in the face and kill him, rather than capture him and treat him humanely.
Now why would the U. S. want such a policy? Anyone? Why would the U.S. sign on to a treaty that encouraged the killing of U.S. soldiers? Anyone? Beuller? Anyone?
Okay, I see it’s little Johnny Hinderaker frantically waving his arm in the air with the answer once again. Okay, Johnny, please explain this for us.
This policy (of killing rather than capturing), says Johnny, “would be consistent” with the Geneva and Hague Conventions, which hardly anybody has read and “with the traditional rules of warfare.”
Not only that, smiles Johnny, it would “solve the problem of what to do with all those prisoners” who we don’t want to give trials to. This is what Hamdan really means.
And to prove that this is perfectly consistently with the “traditional rules of warfare” little Johnny cites his favorite military expert Ralph Peters who says:.
Violent Islamist extremists must be killed on the battlefield…. Isn't it time we gave our critics what they're asking for? Let's solve the "unjust" imprisonment problem, once and for all. No more Guantanamos!
Hmmm. So, class, did Johnny give the right answer? Do supporters of the Geneva Conventions just want to kill people suspected of terrorism rather than capturing them?
Class? Why are all your mouths open and no one has their hands in the air?
Um, class? Anyone?
Your faith in the rule of law is showing. Here's to hoping it's not misplaced.
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutly correct in pointing out that there are a lot of people in government who take their responsibilities seriously and who recognize that the administration is bringing us to unprecidented ground.
But the problem as I see it remains, "what about the people who aren't really paying attention?" How do the folks who work all day and get their news from their local NBC affilliate perceive what's happening to their government and what can we do to make sure they understand?
Arthur Kennedy? You mean Anthony Kennedy, right?
ReplyDeleteThe argument that we can deny basic rights to groups of individuals because they didn't sign a treaty or because we haven't signed an aggreement bounding us to grant them rights is an argument against the principles upon which this nation was founded.
ReplyDeleteThe idea, recognized among the greater of the Founders, was that the only legitimate purpose of government was to protect rights that preexist its formation, and that those rights are inviolable. They are rights a person has by virtue of being a person.
So whenever you hear someone say, "document x" doesn't grant "person b" rights then you are hearing that person make an argument against his own rights. He is saying that the rights that our Constitution guarantees him are not unalienable, that they can be taken away.
Slowly, such arguments erode our freedoms, as people forget what freedom, liberty, and justice meant in the first place.
Arthur Kennedy? You mean Anthony Kennedy, right?
ReplyDeleteHorrible - and corrected.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteTruly outstanding post. Your ability to present law in such a way that I can understand it is a gift, if not the result of hard work.
and hume's ghost,
I formally request to use your comment in order to reaffirm with my wingnut friends in a concise way what our founding documents are all about.
Between Unclaimed Territory and Firedoglake, among others, I see great hope for a return to rationality.
Thank you all.
k-bar:
ReplyDeleteIt was weird....
I was reading John Dean's post in one window and in another I had Daniel Ellsberg's Post on LewRockwell.
It was like a total flashback....
Not to rain on your most excellent parade, but is it not the case that as a matter of history governments often -- even "usually" as I think A.W. Simpson has written -- have passed some sort of post-war immunity legislation to cover not only their wartime leaders but all others working for them?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how that would work with Bush-Cheney's endless so-called "long war" -- there's is no "post-war" time in sight -- but what's to stop the GOP from doing so here and now? The minority Dems surely haven't shown either the courage or, for the most part, the smarts to stand in the way.
I think you're probably right about this putting a break on the administration's plans, Glenn. But just for fun's sake...
ReplyDeleteWhite House hard-liners, led by Vice President Dick Cheney and his uncompromising lawyer, David Addington, made it clear that there was only one acceptable answer.
What exactly would happen if those same hard-liners made it clear that they did not agree with the Supreme Court's interpretation and did not believe that the Court had the Constitutional authority to curb the Executive's power? After watching their legal contortions over the last few years, this doesn't even seem that unlikely.
We've already seen administration officials of all stripes act outside of the bounds of law as they knew it pre 9/11. Even if many were not willing to contravene the Court's decision, whether out of respect for the law or fear of later prosecution, it's clear that many others would.
"I formally request to use your comment in order to reaffirm with my wingnut friends in a concise way what our founding documents are all about."
ReplyDeleteGo for it.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060705.html
ReplyDeleteWas going to point you this way, but I think someone beat me to it. Bears repeating anyway...
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteArthur Kennedy? You mean Anthony Kennedy, right?
Horrible - and corrected.
I don't know, Arthur Kennedy couldn't be any nuttier than Scalia, any more of an empty robe than Clarence Thomas, any more of a corporate bag man than Roberts or any more of an extremist than Alito. I'd nominate him.
Arthur Kennedy? You mean Anthony Kennedy, right?
ReplyDeleteHey, I thought it was funny.
Not as funny as the poor kid I had to judge in an extemp round back in Iran Contra days who confused National Security Advisor Bud McFarlane with the beer spokesdog Spuds McKenzie.
Of course, near as I could tell, US policy in Central America was being formulated by a bull terrier, so I ranked the kid fairly high in his flight....
Seriously though, since I just finished Sean Wilentz's The Rise of American Democracy recently, the irony of a bunch of Republicans this time backpedalling on bringing US practice into line with the Declaration's ringing statement that 'all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights' was pretty thick.
It was the Douglas Democrats who, 150 years ago, were busy explaining that 'all men' didn't mean 'all men'...
to protect rights that preexist its formation, and that those rights are inviolable. They are rights a person has by virtue of being a person.
ReplyDeleteThe founders of course had to fight in order to get that view recognized and clearly we have to keep fighting tp prevent it from fading away.
There are many here among us for whom force is the only principle they understand and they assume that everyone else is the same. I'm reminded of bart's reference to "animals" the other day.
Good post as always, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteI am trying to be as optomistic as you as to the possible effects of Hamdan on the administration's lawbreaking. Please continue to keep us informed!
One question, though, regarding your statement: "Those are criminal offenses. And the Supreme Court just expressed unbridled hostility towards their only defenses they have to those crimes."
How do you characterize this ruling as "unbridled hostility"? The vote was 5-3, but if all Justices had voted it would have been 5-4. From my point of view this ruling was one judicial appointment away from going the other way. Course, I'm not a lawyer.
BTW, I listened to the Horowitz debate. What a nutjob! It's fun to see how, when confronted with facts and logic, his arguments fell apart and he started raving like a lunatic. It's also scary that there are so many prominent people out there that share his poisonous views.
I'm afraid you will have to count me as one of those with the "defeatist" outlook. This administration will simply grind over any career staff that doesn't toe their line.
ReplyDeleteThey are perfectly capable of saying "well that's the Supreme Court's decision. Let them go enforce it." (That's something another president said.)
Who's going to stop them? Arlen Specter? Oh, please.
Thank you for continuing to build the case against the abuses of this current administration.
ReplyDeleteI listened to your debate with Horowitz and want to thank you for saying something that I think applies to too many today. This is a paraphrase, so pardon if I've taken license:
(they) claim to be protecting our country... (but) America is about certain things. America is not a landmass....He doesn't even believe in what America stands for. He reveals a complete misunderstanding of what this country is about.
The ideals that we strive to live up gave America any binding authority in this world, not any capacity for horrors. Any tinhorn despot can create misery. "Life, liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are much higher goals.
The operative phrase is "Bush officials" facing danger, and not necessarily "Bush". Seems they were happy to throw NCOs under the bus for the Abu Ghraib deal. I'm sure the eavesdropping will continue, then some poor saps at the NSA will take a fall for going against "new policy that agrees with Hamdan", that surprisingly no one at the NSA had heard of.
ReplyDeleteMan, I don't remember getting this jaded.
"And behind their unprecedentedly fortified walls of secrecy undoubtedly lurk the most incriminating, still-concealed revelations yet, and it is only a matter of time before we learn of those."
ReplyDeleteAnd one of those things that I've been suspicious of is whether the Cheney Administration has signed order(s) of execution for "Ghost Detainees" like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and delegated the execution authority to Rumsfeld's DoD martinets.
Seems like the SU's Hamdan decision would likely make such an execution order into a "murder" order.
Those that steal elections and commit fake terrorist attacks to undermine democracy and launch wars of aggression that look the federal treasury for the military industrial complex do not give a damn about laws and court decisions.
ReplyDeleteGreat crimes demand even more criminality!
Those that gave the criminals a "free pass" on the first 2 crimes above have nothing constructive to add to the dialog.
Glenn, this is just more mental masterbation.
Davis X Machina said...
ReplyDeleteArthur Kennedy? You mean Anthony Kennedy, right?
Hey, I thought it was funny.
Not as funny as the poor kid I had to judge in an extemp round back in Iran Contra days who confused National Security Advisor Bud McFarlane with the beer spokesdog Spuds McKenzie.
Of course, near as I could tell, US policy in Central America was being formulated by a bull terrier, so I ranked the kid fairly high in his flight....
You think that's funny? It looks like Instaputz get's his SitRep in Iraq from the same people who planned the invasion without an exit strategy: The Hasbro Toy company.
Who is formulating our foreign policy? Time has it wrong. It wasn't cowboys. It was these Guys.
From alan at 6:18pm:
ReplyDeleteThey are perfectly capable of saying "well that's the Supreme Court's decision. Let them go enforce it." (That's something another president said.)
Andrew Jackson, if memory serves, of a decision handed down by Chief Justice Marshall on a case concerning Native Americans. Its become one of the more imfamous 'sayings' of American history (alongside the likes of "Separate But Equal").
That said, let's keep in mind the Administration is not alone here. Its unlikely Congressional Republicans will want to be associated too closely with a White House that is clearly breaking the law. And this ruling by the SCOTUS, with its elevated publicity thanks to the RWNM, makes it clear the Bush Administration is moving well outside the law at the moment.
Will this alone stop the Administration? No. But it will face an increasingly hostile Congress, regardless of which party take control in November, and will be bereft of any political or legal cover if it seeks to pursue the same policy track it presently is on.
Is this reason to think things will end up okay? Again, no. This is an Administration that has consistently proven itself inept and incompetent; should things take a turn south with either Iran or North Korea, I have zero confidence the Bush Administration will be able to manage the situation.
Let's all hope it doesn't come to that.
Anonymous...Glenn, this is just more mental masterbation.
ReplyDelete6:24 PM
Glenn is a master of the art of debate.
You, sir, are a wanker, and "wanker" is a one cent word for "masturbater". You can't spell it, but it doesn't stop you from engaging in it here.
Damn. Good stuff. For more than half a year I've been saying that BushCo has no intention of ever relinquishing the power they've stolen. These folks have never allowed oversight. They did everything in their power to prevent even a cursory examination of 9/11.
ReplyDeleteDo these people want to be tied to the 50 investigations on Henry Waxman's desk? Does anyone really believe that they would sit in open hearings and be questioned by John Conyers?
No. The only reason they have gone so far out on a legal limb is because they knew from the get go that they would never be held to account. Any serious investigation would logogicly start at PNAC's "New Pear Harbor" and move apace from there.
Does anyone honestly believe that they will trust their fate in November to a bunch of rigged voting machines and hacked phone banks?
Perhaps, as said by our lovable furry friend Grover Norquist they'll pull Ossama bin Buggin out of a spiderhole on Halloween.
But if not, contemplate for a moment the type of event that would make it necessary for Bush to declare Martial Law.
Then ask yourself if you'd put it past him to try it.
50 Ways to Dump the Dubya
As shooter242 explained yesterday, whenever Bush breaks the law, its because Glenn and his "fellows" forced him to. So really this is all Glenn fault:)
ReplyDeletealan writes: They are perfectly capable of saying "well that's the Supreme Court's decision. Let them go enforce it." (That's something another president said.)
ReplyDeleteI don't think you're sufficiently defeatist here.
The truly pessimistic will be quick to remind you that an administration of war criminals would not be above the use of assassination as a way to control the majority on the court.
Mr. President, how would you like your toast?
ReplyDeletes9 said...
ReplyDeleteThe truly pessimistic will be quick to remind you that an administration of war criminals would not be above the use of assassination as a way to control the majority on the court.
Despite the constant whinging and whining to the contrary from the right, I actually do not think there is currently any Justice on the SCOTUS that is sufficiently liberal to warrant a measure that extreme. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't put it past some of them.
Two Questions-
ReplyDeleteThe US has not signed onto the World Criminal Court (I think that's the right title).
Could any US official be tried at the Hague?
The Bush Admin has asked that an NSA case not fo forward. (What I got from the headline is that they want the case dismissed,could be wrong)
Does the Hamdan decision effect the court cases against the NSA spying or can the Admin use the jeopardy to national security bit to get away with the spying?
Maude
Breaking News!
ReplyDeleteJoe Lieberman to Run as Dependent
Maude said...
ReplyDeleteTwo Questions-
The US has not signed onto the World Criminal Court (I think that's the right title).
Could any US official be tried at the Hague?
Excellent questions, Maude. I will attempt to answer the first.
Let's ask Henry Kissinger.
I think the answer is yes, easily.
Will it ever happen? Probably not.
But I don't think old Henry has set foot in the Hague for some time.
Maude,
ReplyDeleteGo back and read the last 3 or 4 posts by Glenn. He explains the legal issues in detail and in a way that a layperson like myself can understand.
What a coincidence...
ReplyDeleteOn September 11, 2001, the 28th anniversary of the Pinochet coup, Chilean human rights lawyers filed a criminal case against Kissinger along with Augusto Pinochet, former Bolivian general and president Hugo Banzer, former Argentine general and dictator Jorge Rafael Videla, and former Paraguayan president Alfredo Stroessner for alleged involvement in Operation Condor. The case was brought on behalf of some fifteen victims of Operation Condor, ten of whom were Chilean.
Or karma...
Before Hitch went batshit insane and lost control over his bladder.
ReplyDeleteBut Mr. Kissinger also has others on his trail. Last May, a French judge sent the police to his Paris hotel to ask him to appear at the Justice Ministry the next day and answer questions about five French citizens who disappeared after the Chilean coup. Instead, Mr. Kissinger promptly left town.
That same month, an Argentine judge said he wanted Mr. Kissinger to testify about American involvement in Operation Condor, the scheme by South American dictatorships, including Argentina and Chile, to abduct or kill opponents living in exile.
In April, a British human-rights campaigner asked a London judge to arrest Mr. Kissinger under the Geneva Conventions Act of 1957 for the "killing, injury and displacement" of three million people in Indochina during the Vietnam War years. The judge rejected the application, but not before Mr. Kissinger had to endure a protest by 200 activists calling him an "evil war criminal." Plans for a similar protest apparently led him to cancel a planned trip to Brazil as well.
Finally, in Washington, Mr. Kissinger faces a $3-million (U.S.) lawsuit by the family of René Schneider, a Chilean general assassinated in 1970 for opposing plans for a coup against Mr. Allende.
This quickening pace of the pursuit raises a touchy issue for international justice: Whose justice is it?
Until now, those brought to trial largely have come from poor or defeated countries such as Serbia and Rwanda. But activists say that must change. To have any force, international law must apply to the rich and powerful too.
"If the drive to put Kissinger in the witness box, let alone the dock, should succeed, then it would rebut the taunt about 'victor's justice' in war-crimes trials," writes British journalist Christopher Hitchens, who asserts in his book The Trial of Henry Kissinger there are grounds for an indictment. "It would demonstrate that no person, and no society or state, is above the law. Conversely, if the initiative should fail, then it would seem to be true that we have woven a net for the catching of small fish only."
But Mr. Kissinger is one fish the United States does not want on anyone's hook. The attempts to arrest or even question him touch off Washington's worst fears about the evolving movement for international justice.
Just last month, the administration of President George W. Bush declared it would have nothing to do with the world's first permanent war-crimes tribunal, the International Criminal Court. If foreign judges could second-guess their every decision, U.S. officials argue, it would be open season on the United States.
The man making that argument most forcefully perhaps has the most to lose: Mr. Kissinger himself.
"Nobody can say that I served in an administration that did not make mistakes," he said in London in April. "It is quite possible that mistakes were made, but that is not the issue. The issue is, 30 years after the event, whether the courts are the appropriate means by which this determination is made."
In his book Does America Need a Foreign Policy?, he holds that, in theory, any court anywhere can try a person accused of crimes against humanity.
"When discretion on what crimes are subject to universal jurisdiction and whom to prosecute is left to national prosecutors, the scope for arbitrariness is wide indeed," he argues.
None of this cuts much ice with Joyce Horman.
She argues that the officials of a democratic nation like the United States must be accountable for their actions. If that takes a foreign prosecutor, so be it.
"The American military and the American government have an incredible amount of power and the abuse of that power was typified by the Chilean coup," she says. "For Americans to be bumping off Americans in foreign lands is not what American citizens want their government to be doing."
The insane drumbeat to find journalists guilty of treason for reporting on illeagal activities of our government has a whole new meaning when viewed in the light of the Hamdan decsion.
ReplyDeleteAnd, maybe those in the administration that were crazy enough to advocate for the institution of torture, secret prisons, and warrantless wiretapping are well aware that their last best hope to escape liability is to scare the media into not reporting these acts.
I do share muted optimism about the Hamdan decision, that it could signal a real turning point in the lawlessness of the administration.
At the same time, I have to express deep horror at the possibilities of some sort of fascist reaction on the part of Bush fanatics when their house of cards becomes truly threatened.
They have developed a storyline of absolutes. (With us or against us. Traitors for disagreeing. etc.) Storylines like that are what needs to be fought tooth and nail.
Glenn's blog here is a good example. It's forcing the dialogue away from the extreme is how we reclaim our national honor.
Could any US official be tried at the Hague?
ReplyDeleteThat's where the "Oh yea...you and whose Army?" defense comes into play even more than any SCOTUS ruling.
It all comes down to how much that "swearing to uphold the Constitution" actually means and I think the point of Glenn's post here is that it actually means a lot among most in government AND the Armed Forces.
The world court comes into play only if the country can't prosecute. Like Charles Taylor.
ReplyDeleteIf another country brings charges of an US official, the question is if the US can thumb it's nose at the world court. It was a different situation for the Nuremburg trials.
The NSA case that the Admin asked to dismiss was just today. This is new, not old.
Bush hasn't yet paid any price for any lawbreaking. I bet the Republicans don't want to open any cans of worms before the election.
Maude
Pol Pot And Kissinger: On war criminality and impunity
ReplyDeleteby Edward S. Herman
Edward S. Herman is Professor Emeritus at the Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania.
Excellent piece. Penned in 1997, relevant today, especially this bit on The Collapsing Left.
The Collapsing Left
The left is so weak in the United States that establishment propaganda themes and untruths often become part of the left's own intellectual apparatus.
One critic of Manufacturing Consent, noting that even the antiwar leaders didn't refer to U.S. policy in Vietnam as "aggression" or an "invasion," asked why we should expect more from the mainstream media?
It didn't occur to him that if the establishment view is so powerful as to define the discourse boundaries even for dissidents, that this shows an overwhelmingly potent propaganda system.
With the U.S. left today, the conventional wisdom on Cambodia, as on many other issues, frequently predominates. In an article in In These Times for July 29, Adam Fifield finds only Pol Pot guilty of genocide, plays down the U.S. role, and gives the conventional lie about Chomsky, who allegedly "disparaged the [news] accounts as fabrications aimed at demonizing Pol Pot's noble revolution."
As in the case of Anthony Lewis it is unlikely that the author ever bothered to look at any of Chomsky's writings on Cambodia. The mainstream lie about Chomsky is reported without question in this left journal, just as in the New York Times, although in this case there is a right of reply.
A July 1997 piece on Cambodia by Philip S. Robertson Jr., in the Foreign Policy in Focus series issued by the supposedly left Institute for Policy Studies and Interhemispheric Resource Center, literally starts Cambodian history in 1975, gives a death toll of the Khmer Rouge period as 1.5-2 million, without mentioning any earlier events that might have contributed to the toll, expresses regret at the "impunity" of Cambodian civil servants, but nobody else, and urges that the United States "must continue the vital work of bringing Pol Pot and the remaining KR leaders to trial for genocide..."
With a left like this who needs a right?
Times have changed. Nothing puts the left on steroids like an illegal occupation turned into a stalemate of attrition.
Maude said...
ReplyDeleteThe world court comes into play only if the country can't prosecute.
It's not likely for a host of reasons, but any country that so chooses could take this tiger by the tail and snatch him like the Israelis did Eichmann and we are now doing all the time in other countries. We are losing our standing and cred in the world. It could happen to one of them someday.
PhD9 said... That's where the "Oh yea...you and whose Army?" defense comes into play even more than any SCOTUS ruling.
ReplyDeleteTotal bluster for nine sedentary senior citizens in robes. Not saying it would ever happen, but if the French wanted to snatch Kissinger, say, and got him. There is nothing we could do about it. They are a nuclear power, too. They could say to us, "Bring it on". As it is, they've just do the light wet work for our corporatist masters. Blowing up the Rainbow Warrior and stuff.
Great post, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteLOL -- way to work in one of the faux advertise liberally circle of links! Just more of the "I stayed at a holiday inn exppress" expertise.
ReplyDeleteDigby?
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Guess it doesn't even matter if it is "on-topic", you can always call it an "update"!
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI share the sentiments of the more pesimistic here. Who will hold this administration to account? Specter? No. The Dems? No. You talk of slow progress but what will the ultimate outcome be and when will we see meaningfull action? You are right, more and more people are seeing whats going on but to what end? Nothing of concequence happens. Bush has no respect for the law, a complicit congress and a spineless opposition even though two thirds of Americans disapprove. They have already broken many laws and disregarded the constitution. At some point don't you think "slow progress" will prove to be too late? Each new revalation of lawbreaking with no consequence builds the foundation for eventual Fascism. Has not the time to leave slow progress behind and launch major action to defend the constitution come and gone? We are at a disadvantage. We respect the law. Someone needs to start publicly calling out this administration loudly and constantly. The fact that it STILL has not happened leaves me angry/pesimistic. Since you critisize my pesimistic outlook, how do you see this playing out in a positive way given all of the above?
ka-bar said...
ReplyDeleteGreat post Glenn. One thing that amazes me is the wingnuts disrespect for SCOTUS.
I'm sure you just loved the
Gore-Bush election decision.LOL.
Bush better stay in Crawford when, or if, he retires.
ReplyDeleteFormer UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson may have best described the concept of universal jurisdiction when she wrote, in 2001:
"The principle of universal jurisdiction is based on the notion that certain crimes are so harmful to internal interests that states are entitled--and even obliged--to bring proceedings against the perpetrator, regardless of the location of the crimeor the nationality of the perpetrator or the victim."
Former President George W. Bush will be invited by wealthy friends to enjoy the pomp and circumstance in Britain; the glories of Paris, Rome and Madrid; the charm of Swiss mountains; horse rides on beautiful haciendas in Argentina, Chile and Mexico. These were the perks of people like Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton who have left the Office before him.
But he will not know where and in which of these places charges may have been filed...by family members of people who were flown on un-marked dull, grey-painted planes to remote airports to be tortured or "disappeared"..or family of men, women and children who were summarily executed by soldiers in places like Haditha, Bakuba or Mahmoudia..or relatives of civilians whose bodies were lost in the flattened rubble of downtown Falluja.
Indeed, some of the questions which French judges wanted to ask of Henry Kissinger in Paris in 2001 had involved the secret, high-altitude carpet bombings of Cambodian towns and villages during the Vietnam War.
No, former President Bush would be wise to stay home in Texas in his retirement. It is highly unlikely that he would face imprisonment in his own country, as did General Pinochet. George Bush should enjoy the barbeque, and ride his horses through the mesquite. Maybe invite former Vice-President Cheney down to the ranch for some hunting.
I sense much of mainstream progressives are so intimidated by the GOP machine, talking points, "you're either with or or you're a traitor" type of rhetoric that they feel isolated and literally tongue tied when it comes time to stand up and raise Cain. Eventually, through posts such as yours Glenn, the truth will nurture courage, but for many the verbal abuse against Liberals by the GOP machine makes it hard to step up to the plate. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteKeith said:
ReplyDeleteThey have already broken many laws and disregarded the constitution. At some point don't you think "slow progress" will prove to be too late? Each new revalation of lawbreaking with no consequence builds the foundation for eventual Fascism. Has not the time to leave slow progress behind and launch major action to defend the constitution come and gone?
When people are being slaughtered and tortured, patience is immoral.Shall we wait for the police if our children our being attacked, or take matters into our own hands. If the media were doing their jobs and really informing the people about what is going on as relentlessly as they informed us about the wanderings of Clinton's penis, we wouldn't be so pessimistic. But by the time folks wake up, perhaps when another election has been stolen, it really will be too late, as there will no longer be any restraints upon them at all.
When people are being slaughtered and tortured, patience is immoral.
ReplyDeleteSo what do you propose?
It seems to me that it all depends on whether the Democrats win at least one house in November. Preferably the Senate, so they can block the Supreme Court nomination of an Addington/Yoo type. But even the House would do if they could block some of Bush's viler proposed laws and expose some (any) embarrassing facts. But Democrats are not going to win if they let themselves be intimidated by this talk that if they believe human rights extend beyond our borders they are soft on terrorism. They need a response. I recommend, "We treat everyone humanely whether they deserve it or not because we're Americans and that's just what we do.
ReplyDeleteerin said:
ReplyDeleteSo what do you propose?
I propose widespread, sustained, non-violent civil disobedience. Let us all study Ghandi and Martin Luther King, who didn't wait around for everybody to "get it." People "got it" because of their actions.
No question the war criminals (and criminals of various other flavors) in the Bush Administration are nervous.
ReplyDeleteBut the consequences that should follow might not. Sometimes bullies back down when finally confronted with real authority; sometimes they ratchet up the anti-social behavior even further. Keep in mind it was a 5-3 (effectively 5-4) decision. Alito did his master's bidding; Roberts would have if he could have. All it takes is one wingnut following through on Coulter's creme brulee recipe and the next one goes the other way.
Maude,
ReplyDeleteYou mean the ICC. Although that's sometimes called the world court, that term usually means the ICJ.
We've been before the ICJ before. In 1986 it ruled that we had illegally intefered in Nicaruga. The Reagan administration told the court, in so many words, to shove off.
sunny said...
ReplyDeleteI propose widespread, sustained, non-violent civil disobedience. Let us all study Ghandi and Martin Luther King, who didn't wait around for everybody to "get it." People "got it" because of their actions.
Trouble is, those folks had nothing to lose. We could lose our jobs, our health insurance, our financial solvency, everything. And a lot of them died first too.
William Howard Taft IV, a fourth-generation Leftist.
ReplyDeleteThe interview with John Dean on Countdown tonight was very interesting. Dean's new book comes out soon.
ReplyDeleteI have a galley of the book and have begun reading it. As soon as I'm done, I will post a review and excerpts from it (which I have permission from the publisher to do). This book should make a big impact.
Someone needs to start publicly calling out this administration loudly and constantly.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I checked, that's exactly what Glenn has been doing now for months! I'd like to step back a moment to thank him for A: Writing the book.. B: Hosting this forum and C: Taking the battle to Michelle and Jeff as the need arises......
baldie eagle said:
ReplyDeleteTrouble is, those folks had nothing to lose. We could lose our jobs, our health insurance, our financial solvency, everything. And a lot of them died first too.
Mlk knew he would die, and did what he did regardless. And if things keep going the way they are, none of us are going to have jobs, health insurance, and our financial solvency anyway.
What would you rather do? Stay in your fragile comfort zone, or do something that could make a real difference? Lie there and let Bush and his borgs roll right over you on the off chance you might keep your health insurance? Perhaps you'll keep your mouth shut when they come for your neighbors, because, after all, you are not like them? When everybody else has been rounded up, who is going to speak up for you?
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Substitue "speak out" for "do anything" and you'll see what I'm getting at. People are dying
"I have a galley of the book and have begun reading it. As soon as I'm done, I will post a review and excerpts from it (which I have permission from the publisher to do). This book should make a big impact."
ReplyDeleteWhat Dean said on KO comports with what any sane person has instinctively known for years. Nice to hear that the science backs the instincts!
Universal Jurisdiction or the doctrine that states that any jurisdiction can prosecute certain crimes originated in piracy cases, but has been extended to war crimes. I know of no precedent, but would bet that the doctrine applies to crimes against peace.
ReplyDeleteI've been saying for more than two years that Bush, Cheney, Condi, and associates were going to be joining the Hank Kissinger Club of Americans Who Cannot Travel Abroad for Fear of Prosecution as a War Criminal.
Glenn writes: are entitled to the most basic standards of humane treatment guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions.
ReplyDeleteYou see jao? Some few of you may follow this blog because you think Glenn stands for law and order.
Others of us are fans of Glenn because we think he is a highly moral human being whose basic values we share.
The two are not mutually exclusive but the latter is certainly more compelling, at least to me and I suspect others.
Glenn writes: No government is invulnerable. Far greater and more powerful political leaders than George Bush have met very ignominious ends after flying very high and appearing invulnerable for a long time.
***
Ozymandias
I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. But there's always the chance that every few centuries, the caravan will derail.
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteThe interview with John Dean on Countdown tonight was very interesting. Dean's new book comes out soon.
I have a galley of the book and have begun reading it. As soon as I'm done, I will post a review and excerpts from it (which I have permission from the publisher to do). This book should make a big impact.
When I was pre-ordering copies of Glenn's book to send to my friends, I also pre-ordered copies of John Dean's book to distribute.
Can't wait till I get those.
ReplyDeleteThe principle that the Geneva Conventions set a minimum standard of treatment for all human beings in the custody of civilized countries is not some new pacifist theory cooked up last year by Ward Churchill. Instead, that principle is the consensus understanding that has long existed in this country, as understood by Democrats and Republicans alike. The fringe, radical theory is the insistence that the U.S. can and should operate beyond the law, and that nothing, and certainly no effete human rights treaty, can restrict the omnipotent will of the President when it comes to defending the nation.
This being a Bush/Cheney innovation is completely contrafactual. This is NOT how the West was won - it took the wholesale slaughter of Indian men, women and children to achieve final victory, not to mention Sherman's march. Another recent example is the elimination of the Branch Davidians. This is how the world works - deal with it.
This is NOT how the West was won - it took the wholesale slaughter of Indian men, women and children to achieve final victory, not to mention Sherman's march. Another recent example is the elimination of the Branch Davidians. This is how the world works - deal with it.
ReplyDeleteSome of us think that our country is and ought to be better than wholesale slaughter and torutring people, and the fact that there are barbarians who have done those things doesn't mean that we should.
But obviously, not all of us think that.
This is how the world works - deal with it.
ReplyDeleteIt was a few weeks ago that I pointed out that the only real commodity that matters in the world is consensus. After all the value of money only exists because we all agree to value it. The chain of command in a military heirarchy only exists because everyone agrees to obey it. Our Constitution has only survived because we all agree to honor it. These instiitutions have tons more power than we give them credit for.
This is why the battle for "hearts and minds" is so important and it's also why the "moral high ground" and "rule of law" that we've so blatantly abandoned when the going got rough needs to be reclaimed.
Wingnut who decries Hollywood when that's the only place he gets his education...This is NOT how the West was won - it took the wholesale slaughter of Indian men, women and children to achieve final victory, not to mention Sherman's march. Another recent example is the elimination of the Branch Davidians. This is how the world works - deal with it.
ReplyDeleteWhy bother refuting Hollywood when it comes to Cowboys and Indians, a sore loser when it comes to Sherman's march to the sea and wingnut propaganda when it comes to Branch Davidians?
Just because such laws are motivated by moral values does not render them not legal instruments. And it is the legal meaning that courts interpret.
ReplyDeleteExcept insofar as moral reasoning lies behind the opinions rendered. Which is why court appointments are so important. Because if all this was cut-and-dried we wouldn't need judges in the first place!
Sunny writes: People are dying.
ReplyDeleteShe hits the point that is most important to me. You can take away a person's civil liberties, dignity, rights, entitlement to justice, etc. etc. etc.
Perhaps those can be restored. But when the person is dead, it's all over. I am shocked more people are not concerned with the tens of thousands of people who are dying for no good reason.
That said, it's hard to decide when reading recent news reports, who is more evil: the Sunnis is control of Iraq, the Shias, or the members of Al Quaeda.
All of the above sound like monsters. Then throw in the Steven Greens and you get a situation rivalling Dante's Inferno.
If one operates under the theory that a citizen takes a responsibility for the actions of his government, especially if he does not protest them, then one would have to conclude two things:
l) It wasn't worth one American life to put in a government made up of these monstrous Sunni and Shia power elite.
2) The "man on the street" in Iraq, assuming he is an innocent person who just wants to live a decent life with his family and doesn't support any of this madness, is screwed. You cannot protest your "government" there unless you want to get killed.
If one operates under the theory that a citizen takes a responsibility for the actions of his government, especially if he does not protest them, then one would have to conclude two things:
ReplyDeleteI hate to be the one to break the news, but that is particularly pie-in-the-sky thinking. I wouldn't normally object because in the USA we at least pretend to have a say in how our government operates.
But I have seen that very argument used to justify civilian deaths in a military engagment because "the citizens didn't protest" therefore they deserve to die for their government's sins.
And down that path - pure evil lies......
Glenn writes:
ReplyDeleteit is precisely that fear of articulating a clear and principled position, and the related fear of standing up aggressively to the administration's abuses, that is the Democrats' greatest problem
Bingo!!! Most of my Republican friends admit that this Administration and Repub controlled Congress have led us astray, but thye always come back to bad leadership is better than no leadership (I disagree, but this is about them). They always come back to "Dems stand for nothing". While this isn't true, the present Senate and House Dem leadership lacks any convictions or leadership (other than a few principled individuals; Thank you Russ Feingold). If they stood for anything other than mainjtaining their position as leaders of an opposition party, they would be much more aggreasive and take a chance on thier true beliefs.
Kerry's worst moment was when he failed to respond to the Swiftboat campaign and then claimed "I wanted to, but my advisors said not to" A true leader would have known to fight that hard and immediately (Webb in VA anyone?).
So let's get some fresh blood ion there that isn't afraid of our ideals and to articulate a position and win or lose with it. Also, let's stop pushing policies and start pushing concepts, (Edwards: "I want to eradicate poverty"; it's not a policy it's a mission statement and that's how you get elected today; not sure Edwards has the right issue - but I love the thinking.)
jao: I have never seen him argue that his concept of "morality" trumps the law no matter what, which is the position you espouse.
ReplyDeleteWell, I am sure Glenn would argue just that in the right circumstances. I don't think you are all that good at reading between the lines. Moreover, I doubt whether many on this blog would argue otherwise. Do you ever take the time to consider the import behind peoples' written words?
When you come right down to it, only the cowards among us do not place themselves "above the law."
One doesn't notice it that often in this country because we have not traditionally had laws so morally heinous that people were willing to risk their security and lives to defy them. The worst one we had was the legalization of slavery and many people then did in fact risk their security and lives to defy that immoral law.
All decent people place themselves "above the law" and as Glenn is a decent person, I am going to bet he does also. It's a trade-off living in a society amongst others which laws one doesn't agree with but is willing to put up with and which laws fall outside that category.
To wit: If a law were passed that it was mandatory to torture every child under five who didn't learn how to speak Chinese, how many would abide by the law? How many would place themselves above it?
Jao, I am finished with discussions with you. If you want to know the truth, I consider you a person who is comfortable with what I define as "light" fascism and I am unsettled with the way you take things Glenn has said and subtly twist them to arrive at destinations I don't think Glenn intended to go.
He may disagree. I speak for me and only Glenn can speak for himself.
But I think you see the world through an authoritarian lens, and are the type of person who is more concerned if the trains run on time than if people are deprived of their inalienable rights.
Who defines "inalienable rights"?
Yup, me. Who did you think I would agree to have define them? You? Nope.
I haven't read the post or comments yet, but I just wanted to say thank you to Mike Stark and whoever helped Glenn to get the recording up. I have refered a few friends -- again -- to this blog, but now with the bait of hearing Horowitz! I hope, as always.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all you do Glenn. I'm get to reading now :)
I'll crap -- never preview, always make a typo.
ReplyDeleteHe who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
ReplyDeleteA man who won't die for something is not fit to live.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.
Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals.
I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhwre. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.
It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it.
Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.
The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict.
The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.
We who in engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive.
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
phd9: I wouldn't normally object because in the USA we at least pretend to have a say in how our government operates.
ReplyDeleteBut I made that same distinction in my post. I pointed out that in certain countries, to protest is to risk death. An argument could be mounted that a person has the right to preserve his life, even at the expense of sacrificing his liberty and countenancing an immoral government.
Here where we still have a large measure of freedom, it comes down more to a question of cowardice (or apathy which itself has consequences) vs. courage.
How can anyone not just love Sunny?
ReplyDeleteAnd then she goes and puts "All About Eve" and "Memento" on her list of favorite movies, proving she is indeed close to perfect!
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about how the military justice system works. Am I correct in thinking that the detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghirab have not even been through an ajudicatory proceeding that clearly establishes that they are guilty of anything? How do we know that they aren't Afghan sheepherders who were picked up by some overzealous American army corporal who was told that a quota of detainees needed to be filled to keep Rumsfeld and Cheney happy?
Does the military actually have anything on paper that definitely establishes the guilt of the detainees?
Eyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeleteHow can anyone not just love Sunny?
*blushing*
(but hardly perfect-I also like Wedding Crashers, but was too ashamed to put it in the profile! Btw, ewo, why don't you get a profile so we'll know more about you. It ain't fair, I tell 'ya!)
Sunny, I knew someone would misinterpret my post. I was pointing out a difference and a difficulty for any attempt to gather Americans together for old-school protesting. I wasn't offering excuses.
ReplyDeleteThe civil rights movement is probably not a great model, though your MLK quote is certainly apt. Look what it took: nearly a century since Reconstruction of lynchings, riots, abuses. Look at the struggle people had just to vote---and yes, I'm talking about the black people. It took the white people a couple of decades of watching black Americans get beat up to get interested.
Supposing Americans won't fight until their backs are up against the wall. What then? Well, it wouldn't make them much different from anybody else. Because we're not.
A better model is probably the series of velvet revolutions that began with East Germany and mainly featured every single citizen on 2 legs going to the main squares and standing there silently (or not), every Monday evening, for weeks. Or, more recently, for several days straight.
This was after 50 to 70 years of oppression.
Maybe such action will never become necessary. Maybe corporate authoritarianism will fail. But something, whether it's the maladmin's behavior or the state of our country, will have to get significantly worse or run on like this for a long time before something snaps. Americans won't move voluntarily from cynically detached to pissed off and ready to do something about it. They will need to be pushed.
And, I hate to tell you, but tens of thousands of dead innocent Iraqis won't do it.
The GOP is planning on bringing a bill to reverse most if not all of the Hamden decision in September just before the elections. I would not be at all surprised if it is debated in tandem with the DeWine Bill ratifying the NSA Program.
ReplyDeletePLEASE, allow the Donkeys to take "Digby's" advice and campaign on requiring warrants to spy on the enemy and to give POW rights to captured terrorists.
If you liked how the voters treated the Donkeys for getting maneuvered into opposing the Department of Homeland Security in 2002, I would LOVE to see what real voters in November will think about a campaign to extend civilian criminal justice rights to foreign terrorists during a war.
After two elections of seeing Lucy the Elephant pull away the national security football, are the Donkeys really stupid enough to run up for that kick one more time???
Lord we pray...
But I made that same distinction in my post. I pointed out that in certain countries, to protest is to risk death
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll confess that I jumped into typing before I got to the end of your post.
But I will reiterate my original point. The logic that suggests that people are morally culpable for the leadership that they find themselves born under is the same logic that allows people to be killed based on their skin color. And its pretty clear to me that moral judgement fails in both cases.
major, I surrender. You have caught me attempting to turn the US over to al Qaeda.
ReplyDeleteI was part of a cell that included at least one Supreme Court justice, a local cop, a prostitute, a fruit seller, George Clooney, a boy with a hoop, a farrier, an ironsmith, a belly dancer, and the mailman. (The mailman brought me all my orders.) Our plot was to deliver DC to the turrists. But I only joined because they promised I could slaughter puppies.
Where should I present myself so you can turn me in and get your decoder ring?
bart, are you saying the dems would be stupid to campaign and vote as a political party?
ReplyDeleteI dunno. I guess, if you say so.
Even your trash talk is hollow.
vbcluothe enemy the enemy the enemy the enemy the enemy
ReplyDeletebart:
I know that you know who "the enemy" is. I prefer that professionals make that judgement.
And GW is anything but a professional. Your faith is tragically misplaced.
I also like Wedding Crashers, but was too ashamed to put it in the profile!
ReplyDeleteNot to worry. I've seen The Replacement Killers about 20 times and could watch it 20 more, although I almost never like movies with violence. I heard the Wedding Crashers was hysterical, and the more humor, the better!
You're still perfect :)
EWO
ReplyDeleteIf you are so concerned with people dying, consider that with the war and insurgency less people are dying per day than died under the ruthless Hussein regime.
And if you believe the lies spread about how many died due to sanctions then we are way, way below those numbers.
Anyway you look at it less Iraqis are dying because of this war. So if this is the biggest item on your menu you should switch to pro-war.
Anonymous said: "If you are so concerned with people dying, consider that with the war and insurgency less people are dying per day than died under the ruthless Hussein regime."
ReplyDeleteHmmm...the "lesser of two evils" argument.
Well, at least it's got to be worth something when the wingnuts admit their Führer is evil!
jao... Your [EWO's] position is essentially anti-intellectual and anti-constitutional, having much in common with that of George W. Bush -- who also considers himself generally to be above the law. No doubt he feels morally justified, too.
ReplyDeleteAnd since I disagree with you on that view of the rule of law, as a general matter, you label me a fascist sympathizer.
And he wonders why he is greeted with derisive hoots and howls of laughter whenever he mentions Ayn Rand? He still expects people to take him, and Rand, seriously.
bart said... After two elections of seeing Lucy the Elephant pull away the national security football, are the Donkeys really stupid enough to run up for that kick one more time???
ReplyDeleteLord we pray...
Stop plagiarizing Marshall Witless, you idiotic fucknozzle. Get your own style, if you can call that a style. It may work for young adult and children's books, and I realize that's the level of intellect you are functioning at, but the rest of us find it tedious.
Anyway you look at it less Iraqis are dying because of this war. So if this is the biggest item on your menu you should switch to pro-war.
ReplyDeleteThis is probably not correct. More Iraqis are probably dying today than at any time under Saddam, ignoring the war with Iran. Few here are absolutists about the anti-war position, except for EWO perhaps. We are just against this war and other unnecessary wars our government blunders us into.
phd9:
ReplyDeleteBut I have seen that very argument used to justify civilian deaths in a military engagment because "the citizens didn't protest" therefore they deserve to die for their government's sins.
And down that path - pure evil lies......
I agree. While it is true that some parts of the citizenry may be complicit in the crimes of the state, it is against at least my principles to assign collective guilt (and worse yet, collective and indiscriminate punishment). That is why attacks on civilians is frowned upon in the laws of war and the treaties having to do with war. It may be (but is not at all always) the case that, had the civilian population just resisted the illegal actions of their gummint, that the gummint's evils might have been prevented, they might have prevented the evils of the gummint. But that's hypothetical in a lot of cases, and to apply it to individuals, where each individual wouldn't have been able to do anything alone to prevent a crime, is absurd. We don't require that in our criminal system (failure to report a crime is a tenuous "crime" in itself, and failure to act against an incipient but not yet realised crime even less so). Why we should require such when the citizenry is cowed and the gummint has the guns is beyond me....
Cheers,
Kerry's worst moment was when he failed to respond to the Swiftboat campaign and then claimed "I wanted to, but my advisors said not to" A true leader would have known to fight that hard and immediately (Webb in VA anyone?).
ReplyDeleteSo let's get some fresh blood ion there that isn't afraid of our ideals and to articulate a position and win or lose with it.
I agree. Had to tell a Kerry fundraiser today that I'll be making my own decisions as to which campaigns are worth supporting this time around. I'll try to be as generous as I was in 2004 (such things aren't a secret with the web reporting of FEC stats), but I've learned my lesson: Don't let the Democratic "leadership" decide what's the best course!!! I wil pick the candidates to support, and they'd better have a spine.
Cheers,
sunny:
ReplyDeleteHistory will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
I agree. But it is a moral failure, not a legal one. And if you accept the teachings of the predominant faith in the U.S. (I don't, but MLKII did), we're all sinners. He wanted to call them to action, not to try them and punish them.
Cheers,
"The Major" said:
ReplyDeleteWell, thatnk you supreme court you have now garanteed another 2 years of Republican congress.
When people finally begin to understand that the supreme court has made it harder if not impossible for george W. Bush to fight terrorists they will vote us back in with a vengence.
"The Major" misspelled "harder to convict people without a proper trial, access to the 'evidence' presented against them and a chance to rebut such, and a jury of peers rather than a bunch of career U.S. military big honchos".
Maybe that is indeed a bonus for a substantial fraction of voters, but they're the 'brownshirt' wannabe battalions, and the less of them around, the better for all of us.
But I'm sure "The Major" feels much safer with one less driver on the streets..... L.A. area, I'd guess.
Cheers,
"The Major":
ReplyDelete... only way to keep these poeple from handing the reigns of the state over to Osama Bin Ladin is to keep the pedal to the medal...
Pure satiric jeenyus, I say. Yes, we can't have George "Rutherford B. Hayes" the Second lose the "reigns of state".
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThe GOP is planning on bringing a bill to reverse most if not all of the Hamden decision in September just before the elections....
Can someone say: "toooooo frickin' obvious"???
Glad that Rove sent you the memo, though.
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThe GOP is planning on bringing a bill to reverse most if not all of the Hamden decision in September just before the elections....
Oh, yeah, how soon I forget. I should have mentioned (again! ... funny how HWSNBN doesn't pay attention to what others write...) that HWSNBN is clueless and that Congress can't "reverse" the Hamdan decision; all they can do is act in accordance with it.....
Not that a "lawyer" like HWSNBN would have known that, of course....
Cheers,
Great post for the domestic aspects, but leaving aside the that aspect (covered already from other comments), what is the long-term implications that could happen in the international realm in dealing with Bush officials? Do you believe that these officials could legally be arrested in Europe (a la Pinochet) and tried elsewhere or in Geneva (considering ramifications and any additional revelations)? In other words, will people like John Yoo, Don Rumsfeld, etc be forced to stay within the US for fear of being whisked away?
ReplyDeleteI realize this is a little off topic, but obviously any chance for a few more years of even wounded democracy rests on the health of an eighty six year old judge. In light of that, and with reading some of ret. Senator Danforth's recent comments bemoaning the current state of monarchy building, how does he reconcile that with his zealous sponsorship of a true human mutation to the Suprem Court?
ReplyDeleteAnyone hear anything?
digby writes: However, when we include accountability in the message – “exercise oversight and push for a new direction, not more of the same” rather than a deadline – Democrats’ advantage doubles to 8 points.
ReplyDeleteOh great! It sells? Then let's do it. Let's all include "accountability" in the message.
More importantly, when we promise to send investigative committees to find the missing money, investigate the lack of armor and no-bid contracts, the lead nearly doubles again to 14 points (55 to 41 percent).
Wow. Okay then. That certainly is more important than accountability, if the lead nearly doubles. Include that in.
I think war profiteering is a surefire winner.
Surefire winner, Digby? Sensational. Better than a deadline to get out of Iraq you say? OK, then, of course, the emphasis should be on the profiteering because there's such an excellent chance of exposing that whole game which has been going on since Eisenhower, and since it's just the Republicans who profit from wars and not the Democrats, that could really work.
Sorry Glenn, Digby does not do it for me.
Hey! Is this a first? This is fantastic. Glenn Greenwald has a featured post on antiwar.com which links to an article in motherjones which is an exerpt from Glenn's book.
ReplyDeleteTerrific!!!!!!! What a treat to open up antiwar.com and see Glenn Greenwald featured in one of the lead articles.
I hope that happens more often!
Fear as a Weapon
. Yet, for the last five years, we have had a government that has worked overtime to keep fear levels high because doing so served its interests. More than four years after the 9/11 attacks, the Bush administration continues to keep up the relentless drumbeat of fear.
I simply don't believe that there are government officials who are subjected to those sorts of suggestions from the U.S. Supreme Court who are not taking them seriously.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I think George W. Bush probably isn't thinking too seriously about the repercussions of his actions. Cheney, on the other hand, is probably losing sleep trying to scheme a way out...
Holy Moly.
ReplyDeleteZapatero snubs Pope at Mass for 'the family'
By Fiona Govan in Valencia
More than a million worshippers congregated at the city's futuristic arts and science park, where the Pope gave a homily praising the traditional family founded on the "indissoluble marriage between a man and a woman".
In a veiled attack on the liberal laws introduced by Mr Zapatero's socialist government since it came to power two years ago, the pontiff said: "In contemporary culture, we often see an excessive exaltation of the freedom of the individual."
Thank God there's the Pope to strike down evil concepts like the freedom of the individual.
I thought the United States was a signatory to a treaty which extended the basic framework of international law into outer space?
ReplyDeleteCranky
This reminds me of an interview I saw about Dick Cheney. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7usANL62Dw
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I would like to know if Glenn has considered the possibility of running for public office at some point. He seems to be a pretty young fellow and could have quite a stellar career in politics. He would get my vote purely on the basis of his intelligence and integrity and his willingness to take on demagogues like Horowitz and demolish them.
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN: The GOP is planning on bringing a bill to reverse most if not all of the Hamden decision in September just before the elections....
Can someone say: "toooooo frickin' obvious"???
Glad that Rove sent you the memo, though.
And yet the Donkey Charlie Brown will still try to kick the national security ball held by Elephant Lucie.
Is Rove really a genius or are the Donkeys that stupid?
Your topic for today...
Oliver Stone will do his part to remind the electorate what the stakes are in this war when he releases his movie World Trade Center in August...
ReplyDeleteFox is gushing its praises as Stone's finest war movie since Platoon.
From Bart at 10:13pm:
ReplyDeleteFox is gushing its praises as Stone's finest war movie since Platoon.
Given its about the human beings who were caught up in that disaster and managed to survive, Fox better bloody well 'gush'.
Gods know its culpability in every disaster since is a stain its going to have to work hard to clear.
Oh, and Bart? I wouldn't be so quick to speak approvingly of an attempt by Congress to legitimize torture, doing so purely as an electoral gambit rather than out of any genuine conviction.
HWSNBN is honest for a change:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: The GOP is planning on bringing a bill to reverse most if not all of the Hamden decision in September just before the elections....
[Arne]: Can someone say: "toooooo frickin' obvious"???
[Arne]: Glad that Rove sent you the memo, though.
And yet the Donkey Charlie Brown will still try to kick the national security ball held by Elephant Lucie.
At least HWSNBN fesses up to what's really going on.
Is Rove really a genius or are the Donkeys that stupid?
At some point people start to get "colour fatigue" and start saying "Hey, waiddamiinit! We're being played for suckas...." Oh, yeah, that moment is right now. Rove's played out and starts getting increasingly desperate, as Dubya's poll numbers are mired in the vicinity of his IQ.
With Iraq descending past Dante's sixth circle, "He's not all that important" Osama still on the loose, and loonytoons like Santorum and Wedlon (just for starters) shwoing themselves to be eedjits, I'm not all that concerned about what Rove is up to. Say, you think he'll fire himself?
Cheers,
It's natural for Glenn to confuse Arthur Kennedy and Anthony Kennedy. Arthur starred in the bizarre 1952 Fritz Lang Western noir Rancho Notorious, and Anthony sits on the bizarre noir-ish Roberts Court.
ReplyDeleteThat's because most Americans know this that administration has gone terribly awry. But quite sensibly, before they put in Democrats in power, they want to know what Democrats are going to do about it, what they will do differently. Holding Republicans accountable for their corruption and excesses is, Digby documents, something which most Americans want.
ReplyDeleteSo, impeach.
Why not just say it? The Republicans are literally daring us to do it.
I derive great comfort from the fact that, after Viet-Nam, Kissinger and MacNamara were prosecuted to the extent of....
ReplyDeleteWhat?
Never mind.
this is exactly why theywill make sure to steal the midterm elections by any means necessary and keep control of congress - their asses are on the line if they lose. You can bet yours they wont.
ReplyDeleteGlenn said...
ReplyDeleteThus, only the Far Left opposes the war in Iraq, even though scores of retired generals, life-long conservatives, and a majority of Americans have long been against it.
There are approximately 4700 general officers who are enjoying their retirement in the United States right now. Of those 4700, approximately six possibly seven Generals have spoken out against the War. Now I wouldn't say that
0.12% is considered scores of retired generals! Not every General of these 4700 can be said to be life long Conservatives either. The fact is, you have no
earthly idea who they voted for, after all this country still has a secret ballot system. So your presuming something that just has no basis in which you can factually support.
As for the majority of American's,
well let's face it, no one really knows what the majority of Americans feel. Polling 200-1200 certainly doesn't give you that prospective. Less then 10% of the population even pays attention to the day to day news on politics, federal and or local. Many don't even know who the Vice President is,let alone anything else concerning the political arena.
And only the Far Left opposes the President's warrantless eavesdropping on American citizens, even though some of the most eloquent and forceful opponents of warrantless eavesdropping are long-time conservatives who believe in the rule of law and a restrained federal government.
A handful of eloquent politicians from the same party comes out against a policy of the administration and all the sudden the majority of those that might vote or have voted for the party is against that policy? Do you actually know these individuals to be "conservative" or are they moderate or liberal Republicans.
I for one don't consider Sen McCain a conservative, moderate yes, conservative no. Rep Barr, not a conservative, a moderate. Bruce Fern, not a conservative, but a liberal Republican. One cannot lump an entire Republican Party into one ideology thinking. Anymore than someone can say that all Democrats are liberal, they are not and like the Republican Party Democrats have conservatives, moderates, and liberals.
You would be hard pressed to find a "conservative" within the Republican party who is against warrantless eavesdropping on American citizens who call known terrorist "outside" the US.
And only the Far Left dislikes President Bush, even though his approval ratings are at near historic lows.
Polls? Polls that ask maybe 200-1900 people of a voting population over 190 million! We all know how well Polls performed during the 2004 elections.
For the record, President Bush's approval ratings were near "his" historic lows.
Don't forget the fact that their have been Presidents with far lower approval Ratings. Nixon comes to mind with 24%, then let's add Truman, Carter and the first Bush, all with lows below Bush II. I wouldn't state that 24% is
"near" Bush's 31% low. Even Clinton dropped to 36%, his low. Did you state then that his was "near historic lows"? Certainly closer than the the difference between Bush & Nixon. Near historic lows? I think not.
But if you're into the Polls, then one could say that the Democrat Congress and the Republican Congress are disliked more than the President based on the polls, and have been for quite some time.
So based on these polls, would one automatically assume that the Democrat Congress is disliked by only the far right? Or the Republican Congress disliked by only the Far Left? (Congress who by the way does have historical lows). That would be ludicrous,
just as coming to some sort of conclusion that all Republicans think the far left are the only ones who dislike President.
Let's also not forget that the media and blogs were quick to remind us that No modern sitting President has been re-elected with job approval ratings as low as those posted by President Bush, whose approval rating hit 47. Again so much for polls. I still wonder why individuals love to refer to those polls when time and time again over the past six years they have lost their reliability.
If you learned anything from the past 6 years, relying on polls or a
handful of individuals who might step into the public eye as your source for the opinions of all voting age individuals on an issue or a candidate is not the lesson.
So in conclusion no one can state what the majority feel or think on an issue or of a candidate until the polls are open, the votes are
counted and recorded. We can only surmise from a small group that "some" are for it 100%, "some" dislike him 100%, "some" dislike a policy 100% and "some" might agree 100% regardless of what ideology they might follow.