Wednesday, July 12, 2006

Right-wing tempter tantrums - Hamdan and illegal eavesdropping

(updated below)

Two matters to note:

(1) My post yesterday concerning the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those right-wing bloggers who self-righteously milked the Epic "Deb Frisch" Controversy for all it was worth this weekend doesn't seem to have been very well-received by the Right Blogosphere. In less than 24 hours, they swarmed together to spit out the most petulant wave of childish insults and substance-free foot-stomping that I have seen in quite some time -- a frenzied wave of ad hominems and bitter personal insults which were then promoted, linked to and celebrated by the Chief Defender and Arbiter of Civil Discourse, Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds.

Right-wing bloggers who spent the weekend lamenting the state of discourse on the Internet responded to my post as follows: Patterico's post was entitled "Glenn Greenwald: Douchebag" and he began by arguing: "Glenn Greenwald is a douchebag"; he ended his post by saying: "You douchebag." When I responded to his post in his comment section, he added a postscript to his post threatening to ban me from commenting on his blog.

Dan Riehl's post, entitled "Enough Of Greenwald, Already," quickly refused to condemn Misha's calls for the hanging of journalists and Supreme Court Justices, but spent the bulk of the post hurling ad hominems at me, calling me "the most annoying little twit of the Left" and "an average, unemployed lawyer." He also recommended that I "opt for actual masturbation," and then investigated my bar status and reported that I was guilty of the grave sin of filing my attorney registration renewal form late.

Little Green Footballs observed that I had written "another idiotic post" and that I was "the left’s most dishonest blogger." Sister Toldjah accused me of having a "peculiar fascination with slamming all things conservative." Confederate Yankee's post was entitled "Lord of the Dunce" and began: "Poor Glenn Greenwald" and ended with: "I'd tell him to take a long walk off a short pier, but I don't know that the poor man would survive the rhetorical drop."

And then, appropriately enough, they all linked to each other, with short little cliched bursts of praise ("Slam!"). So that's your star-studded line-up of right-wing moralizing crusaders who spent the weekend solemnly lamenting the lack of civility in political discourse in the blogosphere.

With those brilliant and elevated responses assembled before him, Instapundit -- who endlessly parades himself around as a righteous advocate of civil discourse, and who was one of those who spent the weekend lamenting the terrible language directed at Jeff Goldstein -- also weighed in on my post. He did so by approvingly linking to the very high-level responses from Dan Riehl, Sister Toldjah, and Patterico, and then shared with us: "I'm no fan of Greenwald." (Incidentally, Instapundit, who claims with great self-satisfaction to be an adherent to the privacy-protecting "Online Integrity" concept, links to Riehl, who currently has posted on his blog satellite photographs of Punch Salzburger's home along with his home address).

So that's the level of discourse that comes from right-wing bloggers, every one of whom cited here -- each and every one -- doled out solemn lectures this weekend about how terrible it is for people to write mean personal insults on the Internet, only to respond to my post today with the above-excerpted tantrums. And all of that leaves to the side the fact that they were unable to comprehend the actual arguments that were made in the post -- most of them responded to the opposite of the argument that was actually made -- an embarrassing fact which QandO's Jon Henke had to explain to them here and here. But ultimately, their whiny, ad hominem tantrums seem more notable than the lack of comprehension.

(2) I will write more about this topic tomorrow, but Anonymous Liberal summarizes some important events from yesterday with regard to the implications of Hamdan for the President's radical executive power theories generally, as well as its impact on the warrantless NSA program specifically. I have been arguing since Hamdan was issued that that decision squarely forecloses both of the legal defenses which the administration has raised to justify its violations of FISA, and as A.L. notes, even National Review's Andrew McCarthy -- one of the administration's most stalwart legal defenders -- now agrees. He wrote in NRO yesterday:


Hamdan is a disaster because it sounds the death knell forthe National Security Agency's Terrorist SurveillanceProgram (TSP) . . . . Logically, albeit very unfortunately,the court has simultaneously brushed aside both administration justifications for the TSP.

That seems to be an emerging consensus, even among Bush supporters -- that Hamdan removes any potential justification for the Bush administration to continue to eavesdrop outside of FISA or disregard other Congressional laws in the area of national security. But, as A.L. documents, the administration -- at least for now -- seems intent on defending its illegal program even in the face of Hamdan, i.e., even though it has no good faith legal justification left. I will write more on this tomorrow.

UPDATE: In a post on NRO's Bench Memos (h/t Jao), Andrew McCarthy says that the majority in Hamdan based its reasoning on the anti-warrantless-eavesdropping legal letter (.pdf) signed by 14 former government lawyers and professors (including Marty Lederman) which argued that the NSA program is illegal, and McCarthy is therefore convinced that the majority decision in Hamdan precludes the administration's legal defenses in the NSA matter. He thus concludes:

Finally, not to go on much longer in this already lengthy response, I have spent a great deal of time and energy studying and trying to explain what I understand to be the legal basis for the NSA program. . . . My own rule of thumb is to try to fight hard but fight fair, and admit when I’ve lost. I’ve lost.

Too bad the Bush administration -- at least as of now -- can't be as forthright about these matters as McCarthy is, and simply admit that the Supreme Court's decision in Hamdan has rendered their warrantless eavesdropping program illegal. The administration's continuation of the program now means not only that they are breaking the law, but that they are doing so knowingly and with no good faith defenses.

(3) Chris Bowers' post, highly worth reading, explores the way in which "the media establishment ignores the increasingly frequent calls to violence within the right-wing blogosphere," even as it is obsessed with petty conflicts and gossip in the left-wing blogosphere.

Given that journalists have become the favorite target for this incendiary and violence-inciting rhetoric from the Right, it is high time that we begin reading articles exploring the extremist and dangerous tactics coming from increasingly mainstream segments of the right-wing blogosphere. An examination of those trends would be a lot more valuable (and a lot more interesting) than yet another tiresome and shallow article about whether liberal bloggers curse too much or whether Kos dictates what liberal bloggers will write.

255 comments:

  1. These Supreme Court rulings must be frustrating to the followers of a President, who, by the very nature of being "The President", is "always right".

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  2. Anonymous4:50 PM

    Justice Deparment Lawyer Steven Bradbury: "The President is always right."

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  3. Anonymous4:51 PM

    Yet again in the throes of a delusional episode, poor Glen yammers on: "My post yesterday concerning the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those right-wing bloggers who self-righteously milked the Epic "Deb Frisch" Controversy for all it was worth this weekend doesn't seem to have been very well-received by the Right Blogosphere"...

    Good one Glen but which planet did this happen on where the so called 'Right Blogosphere' where you weren't well received?

    Well at least this time you spelled the perv's name correctly...

    Other than your hypocrisy that was on parade what you consider, "doesn't seem to have been very well-received" was in fact people laughing at you...

    You as the perennial short bus riding parasite who is without a clue seems to think that being clueless is some how a good thing...

    Well keep on lad, there's always room for more humor on the planet...:lol:

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  4. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Minor edits for your post, Glenn:

    Paragraph 2: Should be "responded to me in this way" or "responded to my post this way"

    Paragraph 5: ""Online Integrity" concept", not "concpet"

    Paragraph 6: Last sentence should be (maybe) "but the whining" rather than "but the whiny"

    Just thought I'd help a brotha out...

    Can't wait for tomorrow's post so I can point Mark Coffey to it...

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  5. Anonymous4:57 PM

    And Anonymous proves your point.

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  6. Anonymous4:59 PM

    Not that anonymous, the first anonymous.

    sheesh.

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  7. Anonymous4:59 PM

    Glenn:

    I hesitate to criticize you because you are the man and yours is the best new blog in at least a year, BUT didn't some of us tell you that it didn't matter what the Supreme Court decided because Bushco would ignore it anyway?

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  8. Oh, good heavens. What a bunch of immature little asswipes.

    I am so freaking sick of their nonsense. But this is just flat-out funny:

    You as the perennial short bus riding parasite who is without a clue seems to think that being clueless is some how a good thing...

    An anonymous poster replies to your post about temper tantrums by posting, well... more ad hominem attacks. Classic.

    BTW, being a good patriot, I bought your book, and plan on enjoying it at the pool this weekend.

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  9. Speaking of those insecure thumb-sucking Whiners who grow up to be conservatives...(we WERE weren't we?)

    There is also an entire body of research about them in John Dean's new Book: Conservatives Without Conscience.

    And their March towards Authoritarianism!

    (I couldn't resist putting it all together with a nice photoshoppie too.)

    But this Thin Skinned Whining of theirs seems to fit their *profiles* to a tee!

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  10. Anonymous5:02 PM

    i hate to say it Glenn, but you're dealing with the 23% crowd John Dean is talking about.

    no amount of persuasion, reasoning, or clarity will ever swing their ilk out of the irrational, nilhistic mindset that has firmly taken root in their lived experience.

    this is their reality and they will fight to the death to preserve it. moreover, just like any Nazi, given the access to levers of power, they will hunt you down, imprison you and probably kill you if given the chance.

    so the question really is, what are we going to do about that 23%? outflank. encircle. corral. contain.

    that's a lot of work to handle 65 MILLLION Americans--of which these blogger represent only the iceberg's tip.

    but we need, as a movement, to come up with a plan of action. and it has to be implemented and followed through to its ultimate conclusion because this demographic will NOT fight fairly and would rather destroy everything in order to prove that they have not lost their war against their self-styled enemies.

    it's a pattern often repeated in modern history. let's not let our own country fall victim to this perilous rot.

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  11. Anonymous5:02 PM

    those poor things are scared of glenn

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  12. Anonymous5:03 PM

    You as the perennial short bus riding parasite who is without a clue seems to think that being clueless is some how a good thing...

    See, Glenn, they don't respond to the meat of your criticism because they can't.

    Ad hominem insults are all they've got.

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  13. The most annoying part is the ludicrous nature of the "argumentation", a modus operandi we're all well familiar with at this point: They say stupid stuff; if you call them on it, you're "lowering the level of discourse" or "shrill" or "filled with hate" or somesuch; if you try to ignore it, they preen about how they pwn3d you.

    They are garden-variety trolls, attempting to pass themselves off as Important People With Something To Say. And if they spent half as much time -- a tenth as much time -- doing something good for the world as they do congratulating themselves over their alleged wit, the planet would be a much better and happier place. But, as winning their facile little points is way more important than, y'know, doing something, that'll never happen.

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  14. Anonymous5:04 PM

    Doesn't it sound like the conserva-blogs are still in high school?

    Let's see, name calling, calling Glenn clueless, and pointing out the obvious -- that those people are laughing at Glenn. Not even high school, but grade-school behaviour.

    And nowhere to be found is any hint of these children substantively addressing ANY of Glenn's points. Business as usual -- tar'em, feather'em, but at all costs AVOID THE ISSUES AND REPEAT CLICHE-SLOGANS AD NAUSEAM UNTIL ONE FEELS LIKE CLAIMING VICTORY.

    Disgusting.

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  15. Anonymous5:05 PM

    For what it is worth, I would be willing to tithe good money to help Glenn continue write this blog. If it ever comes to that. (I did buy the book.)

    I am looking forward to see if the blog ever serves up commentary on John Dean's new book, which is germane in the sense it explains the behavior of the benighted right-wingers quoted in today's post.

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  16. Anonymous5:05 PM

    Yesterday the theme was: "It's the hypocrisy, stupid!"

    Now it's "it's the lack of reading comprehension, stupid!"

    The right wing bloggers' convoluting and twisting of other's arguments in order to create a completely different argument would be fascinating if it weren't so utterly transparent.

    I bet next week they will find some other left wing blogger to latch on to and criticize as the "Anti-Christ" for having used the "ropes, trees" analogy toward a Republican and will have no sense of irony about their doing so.

    --Kristin

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  17. Anonymous5:06 PM

    Glenn Greenwald. The most dangerous man in the Americas. And he's a rare patriot, too.

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  18. Anonymous5:08 PM

    Well, am I the only one that thinks both sides are behaving childish? Patterico's rhetoric is and always will be outlandish. Most of the time its funny, but often it crosses the line. Of course, the language on that "rottweiler" blog is horrible and should be condemned. I am pretty avid reader of blogs; however, I had never run across it till this controversy. I honestly couldn't read more than a few paragraphs - the language was just disgusting.

    Yet, Greenwald in his comments on the controversy completely misses the mark on his arguments and is disingenuous in several points. Patterico specifically shows how off-base G's arguments are (at least in regards to specifics, though there is merit in his general point).

    I generally love the idea of blogs. The ability for people to challenge directly the beliefs and arguments of others in a format not bound by traditional limits, geography, etc. However, this controversy readily reveals the darker side. All in all a sad day for both sides on the blogosphere.

    Am I alone in this?

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  19. Anonymous5:08 PM

    Anonymous said...
    those poor things are scared of glenn


    They really are this time. This isn't just the normal fear for fear's sake fearmongering. He really scares them.

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  20. I hesitate to criticize you because you are the man and yours is the best new blog in at least a year, BUT didn't some of us tell you that it didn't matter what the Supreme Court decided because Bushco would ignore it anyway?

    You make a good point about these developments undermining what I said I thought would happen - which, trust me, many others have brought to my attetnion as well by e-mail, to argue that I was wrong when I said that the administration could not and would not simply ignore Hamdan.

    I will address this a lot tomorrow - but for now, I will say that I don't think that these events signify that the administration will simply proceed full-steam ahead and pretend that Hamdan doesn't matter (look at how they agreed to have Article 3 apply to all detainees). I think their first instinct is to insist that they were right until they can figure out what they want to do. But I will acknowledge that I'm surprised that, even as an initial matter, they are so brazen in pretending that Hamdan doesn't undermine their NSA defenses.

    Even Andy McCarthy - Andy McCarthy - acknowledges that that is absurd.

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  21. Glenn,
    Great post as usual. Also isn't it "Punch" Sulzberger, rather than "Pinch"?

    Jeff

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  22. Anonymous5:14 PM

    Anonymous @ 4:51,

    Your comment is pretty weak. Is that all you got? Because if it is, you should put a name to it. Try something cute, like Mr. Pink, or Mr. Yellow-Stripe-Down-My-Back.

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  23. The only downside to your calling attention to their antics is that it causes some of them to show up here and the sudden loss of cabin pressure that results can be quite disconcerting.

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  24. Anonymous5:16 PM

    Jacob Zipfel: Yet, Greenwald in his comments on the controversy completely misses the mark on his arguments and is disingenuous in several points. Patterico specifically shows how off-base G's arguments are

    OK, then. I go read Patterico's post, and what do I find?

    Patterico: But as his repeated comments make clear, he takes this silly failure-to-denounce principle quite seriously.

    WHAT?! NO! This is clearly the OPPOSITE intention of Glenn's post.

    Patterico did not understand the post. This is as clear as can be.

    Jacob, I don't think you actually understood the exchange that took place here. You have it backwards.

    Glenn, I am absolutely positive, does NOT think that political fellow-travelers are obligated to denounce any comments of their fellows.

    If you think that is his intention, THEN you have misunderstood the entire situation.

    Irony really is dead, I guess.

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  25. Anonymous5:16 PM

    Jacob Zipfel said... Am I alone in this?

    Very much so. But there is a weakly support group meeting at www.altmouse.blogspot.com.

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  26. Anonymous5:20 PM

    m00nchild said...
    i hate to say it Glenn, but you're dealing with the 23% crowd John Dean is talking about.

    I was going to make the same point. Dean talks about the authoritarian followers who will follow their leaders right off a cliff.
    Malkin, Horowitz, your first anonymous commenter on this post, etc. will never try to comprehend the reasoning of your arguments, they'll just condemn you as a traitor and call for your execution for disagreeing with them.

    BTW, I'd rather not post as anonymous but I can't remember my password. Anyone know how I can retrieve it?

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  27. Anonymous5:21 PM

    glenn,

    when you realize you're dealing with authoritarian personalities, you'll probably be a lot less surprised.

    history offers us good lessons on this subject. you should read about the rise of the Nazi party in German in the late 1920s through early 1930s.

    not about what they did WHEN they were in power. but how they got there.

    many Germans never took the Nazis truly seriously until it was way too late. they couldn't believe they'd implement everything they said they would over and over again. "it can't happen here" they said. "hitler's just a stupid bumbling idiot" they said.

    and they kept on saying that until 1939. and after 1945 when their country was in ruins some regretted their lack of action early on when they could have made a difference.

    there is a level of cognitive dissonance in discussions about our current moment. it's strikingly similar to what enveloped the German "cultural mind" in the 30s.

    just because the Supreme Court interprts the laws, doesn't mean an authoritarian group intends to honor their directives. what is the Supreme Court gonna do to enforce their judgements, when their opposite peers in our government refuse to play by the basic Constitutional guidelines that supposedly keep our country cohesive under the notion of the rule of law.

    and i don't think it is wise for us as American patriots to wait for them to act in a manner that robs us of the very essence of our way of life before we kick these un-American fascists to the curb as the German should rightly have done long before Hitler had been granted the Enabling Act following their own version of 9/11 when the Reichstag was burned down.

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  28. Oh c'mon now Glenn.

    You get away with more righty bashing than anyone should. Rarely do bloggers take the time or effort to debunk your hysterical, over the top, exaggerated, breathless attacks on anything and everything conservative.

    Frankly, it's just too much effort. You, Digby, Niewart, Billmon, and a couple of others get away with it constantly because 1) few want to get into a flame war; and 2)the distortions and hyperbole contained in one of your long winded posts are so numerous that its like walking into the kitchen after a huge party and seeing dishes stacked to the ceiling. No one wants to even start a job like that.

    Patterico pointed out that you wrote your post about 8 hours after Misha wrote his. The criticism by the right regarding the left's utter silence on the Frisch matter occurred ALMOST 48 HOURS AFTER SHE THREATENED A BABY WITH SEXUAL ASSAULT.

    In fairness, even you would have to admit that this is a telling difference.

    Let's just agree that you screwed the pooch on this in your eagerness to make some idiotic point about conservative hypocrisy and leave it at that. Otherwise, the more you try and defend yourself, the more shrill you sound.

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  29. Isn't it a crime to theaten a federal official? Perhaps the FBI should be brought in on this one.

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  30. PRUNES - Glenn, I am absolutely positive, does NOT think that political fellow-travelers are obligated to denounce any comments of their fellows.

    That was the funniest part of all. In the course of their insult-spewing, they all thought I was making the point that bloggers have an obligation to condemn every bad comment or else be guilty of supporting that comment. In fact, that was actually the opposite of the point I was making - I was satirizing that point - but none of them can digest that, even though several people - including me and Jon Henke - have explained it to them repeatedly.

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  31. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Haha, I checked out. www.altmouse.blogspot.com Pretty funny.

    I still don't understand though why people would dedicate their time to a blog ripping on someone else. But, hey, there's plenty I don't understand (obvious set up for the quick witted among you).

    But anyways, it seems true that the comments on a blog reflect the demeanor and writing style of the blogger(s).

    What is thrown around here parallels quite nicely to the stuff on Patterico and other such blogs, desipte how loathe you all may be to admit that.

    I guess I'd better stick to the "tamer" areas of the net. I just don't care much for flame wars, etc.

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  32. Andrew McCarthy is a liberal!!!!

    Clearly he's not, but I wanted to beat the Bush apologists to the punch.

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  33. No matter how much the right wing nut-o-sphere fulminates and threatens about such matters, sooner or later these matters will be heard out in a court of law.

    I wish I shared your optimism. Up until now the Administration has been dextrous in avoiding a head-to-head legal battle, even if it means releasing suspected terrorists.

    If the Bush Administration wishes to have a full-blown knock-down-drag-out Constitutional crisis, blatantly and stubbornly ignoring a Supreme Court ruling is a sure way to do it.

    As Glenn and A.L. have posted on before, the Administration's actions strongly suggest they don't want a knock-down-drag-out fight, but would rather seize power on the sly. As misguided and wrong as I think the Administration is, it's too much to hope that they will "blatantly" ignore the ruling. At minimum, they will install a new layer of bureaucracy so any actions that might be illegal given Hamdan can be plausibly denied.

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  34. RICK MORAN - Patterico pointed out that you wrote your post about 8 hours after Misha wrote his. The criticism by the right regarding the left's utter silence on the Frisch matter occurred ALMOST 48 HOURS AFTER SHE THREATENED A BABY WITH SEXUAL ASSAULT.

    In my post, I linked to an identical Misha post from a full week earlier. In Patterico's comments, I linked to another Misha post from 10 days ago - the day Hamdan was released - that was even worse than the one from yesterday. The excuse that it was only one day is absurd.

    Additionally, I identified scores of repugnant and violence-inciting comments from leading right-wing pundits and bloggers which aren't condemned by those who were so self-righteous about the Deb Frisch comments. The Misha post yesterday was but one example of many. For you to come and act as though it's some sort of thorough decimation of my point to say that I posted only hours after that Misha post reflects that you simply do not understand the argument I made.

    But don't worry, you are far from alone.

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  35. Mr. Greenwald:

    I have been seeing the same cr@p on Huffington Post and it's getting old. Good for you to stick up for this; in the war of ideas, we should just ignore those who show up without a weapon.

    http://bimplebean.blogspot.com

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  36. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Glenn:

    I admit that even I will be surprised if Bush pushes his unitary executive bullshit to the point of constitutional crisis BUT given the letter the DOJ released and the testimony yesterday by Steve Bradbury it sounds to me like they are sticking to their argument about the president's alleged war time powers.

    You are right that they conceded that the Genva Conventions applied to the Guantanamo prisoners but I think you're also right that they are just buying time until they figure out how to wriggle out.

    Bradbury's testimony that, "The Hamdan decision, senator, does implicitly recognize we’re in a war, that the President’s war powers were triggered by the attacks on the country, and that law of war paradigm applies." suggests to me that they will fall back on their Article II argument.

    Anyway, I hope I'm wrong.

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  37. Patterico pointed out that you wrote your post about 8 hours after Misha wrote his. The criticism by the right regarding the left's utter silence on the Frisch matter occurred ALMOST 48 HOURS AFTER SHE THREATENED A BABY WITH SEXUAL ASSAULT.

    Oh please, Rick. Do you honestly believe that you're making a real point here? You and I both know that no one on the Right would ever have criticized Misha for his homocidal rant, even if Glenn had given them weeks to respond.

    And the same is likely true of the left regarding Frisch because 1) no one had any clue who she was and 2) it's hard to think of anything more trivial that what some random person writes in Jeff Goldstein's comment section.

    The fact that Frisch was speaking for her herself and no one else, is so self-evidently true that it shouldn't even have to be said.

    But that was Glenn's point. Crazy people say crazy stuff, whether they're obscure liberal bloggers or popular conservative ones. No one has a obligation to immediately condemn someone else, particularly when they have nothing to do with that person. Glenn wasn't seriously calling for the entire right-wing blogosphere to instantly rise in condemnation of Misha; rather he was pointing out how hypocritical and stupid all the hand-wringing about this issue is.

    Get it?

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  38. Anonymous5:43 PM

    Glenn...who currently has posted on his blog satellite photographs of Punch Salzburger's home along with his home address).

    You got the Pinch right, but the "u" goes in place of the "a" in Salzberger (sic).

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  39. Anonymous5:43 PM

    You get away with more righty bashing than anyone should. [....] Frankly, it's just too much effort. [.....] No one wants to even start a job like that.

    So you're not just a whine-filled baby, but *lazy* as well? Good to know.

    But Glenn's getting away with *too much bashing*! Awww, how awful!! Yeah, it's Glenn's fault that you can't, and don't even bother, to successfully argue your points against him!

    Chump.....

    A1

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  40. I guess I'd better stick to the "tamer" areas of the net. I just don't care much for flame wars, etc.

    I suppose this debate could be characterized as a flame war, but I tend to think this passage of the Wikipedia entry on "flaming" applies:

    "Sometimes, serious academic or technical disagreements online are described casually as "flame wars" even when the major participants are making useful and informative points and, largely, not flaming. This may have to do with the degree to which observers identify emotionally with the sides of the debate, or see esteemed leaders or role-models representing their own points of view powerfully."

    I don't remember Glenn calling anyone a douchebag. Intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, yes. But Glenn's posts, while seeming emotionally charged by some, always have foundations in reason and fact.

    Believe me, it's worth it to stick around.

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  41. Anonymous5:43 PM

    Additionally, I identified scores of repugnant and violence-inciting comments from leading right-wing pundits and bloggers which aren't condemned by those who were so self-righteous about the Deb Frisch comments.

    Glenn, if you read Dave Niewert's site, which I'm sure you have, you know how throughly he's chronicled the degree to which there has been a definitive pattern of this type of rhetoric emanating from the right over the course of years.

    From Coulter's comment about wishing McVeigh had driven to the NY Times building instead - to Melanie Morgan's suggestion that Bill Keller might deserve the gas chamber, to Malkin and Savage to Little Green Fascists, for the right is isn't just odd trolls - it's some of the most prominent pundits, some of the most prominent sites, where violence is often explicitly endorsed.

    But I suppose advocating the gas chamber for your political opponents is merely "distortions and hyperbole," right Rick?

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  42. "Oh please, Rick. Do you honestly believe that you're making a real point here? You and I both know that no one on the Right would ever have criticized Misha for his homocidal rant, even if Glenn had given them weeks to respond."

    Of course not. And (against my better judgment) following some of the links to the blogs in Glenn's post, of course they are not that concerned about Misha's posts. Several commenters went into long dissertations about how Misha's words were (of course) completely different, not comparable, and quite justifiable, even if the writer didn't personally think that Supreme Court justices should be hanged for the Hamdan opinion.

    It's unfortunate we can't generate electricity with all that spinning.

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  43. Anonymous5:48 PM

    Minor point - although for now the Bushies seem to have conceded that the Genva Conventions do apply to the Guantanamo prisoners, these are the same folks who to this day claim that they neither condone nor permit torture. Why should I or anyone take these Bushies at their word? On anything?

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  44. Fantastic job, Glenn! Way to go!!! I am laughing out loud and I haven't even finished reading your post yet.

    Maybe you think it's no big deal and that you haven't done anything big here, but you're wrong.

    I must go finish reading now....
    Thanks AGAIN.

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  45. Anonymous5:49 PM

    MJB said...
    Andrew McCarthy is a liberal!!!!

    Clearly he's not, but I wanted to beat the Bush apologists to the punch.


    As John Dean has said, he is a Goldwater conservative that finds himself "left of center" these days. Glenn strikes me as an Eisenhower conservative. Any true conservative with any sense of political integrity and consistency would have to admit that the Republican party has left him, he did not leave the party, (to paraphrase Reagan). The right continues to paint the true liberal/progressives as a radical fringe when in fact, those ideals are espoused by about 60 to 70 % of the population today. They are projecting again, as usual. It will cost dearly them in the next few election cycles.

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  46. Anonymous5:50 PM

    Glenn:

    I have been arguing since Hamdan was issued that that decision squarely forecloses both of the legal defenses which the administration has raised to justify its violations of FISA, and as A.L. notes, even National Review's Andy McCarthy -- one of the administration's most stalwart legal defenders -- now agrees.

    Hilarious! Anonymous Liberal can't legally rebut the Justice Article II argument, so he turns to a NRO pundit, who also does not legally rebut the Article II argument, but does have a case of hysterics about a liberal court run amok.

    Justice actually makes the argument I made immediately after reading the Hamdan decision:

    Before finding that the UCMJ trumped the President's general Article II authority to convene military commissions, the Hamdan Court cited multiple express provisions of Article I which empower Congress to set rules for the treatment of Captures and thus the UCMJ provisions which do just that.

    In contrast, Justice and I observed that there is no Article I provision empowering Congress to regulate the President's Article II power to collect intelligence.

    Therefore, we both conclude that Congress has no such authority and FISA would be found unconstitutional if applied to intelligence gathering.

    I will write more on this tomorrow.

    Maybe you might want to finally provide an actual legal argument to rebut Justice's Article II position since you have declined for weeks now to do so.

    I predict you will not because, if you do, your entire lawbreaking schtick will collapse.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous5:50 PM

    The Hamdan decision appears to be having the effect on the administration that Glenn predicted. This story in the Washington Post from today indicates that the administration is complying with the Supreme Court decision.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/11/AR2006071100094.html?sub=new

    Also, I saw another WaPo story yesterday, by Dana Milbank, I think, that said the Pentagon has issued a memo that all detainees in US custody, going forward, are to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

    I think the fact that the SCOTUS decision is actually changing the behavior of the administration is encouraging, but it is also the catalyst that is enraging the right-wingers. "What, 5 justices had the nerve to require the president to follow the law?! Off with their heads!"

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous5:52 PM

    Ad hominem attacks are sometimes funny, if done creatively. And obviously, every side does it in this medium -- I really think it's a omni-partisian trait -- and I find it extremely tiresome when people write about them as if they're shocked, SHOCKED! that others would resort to them, when they themselves use them.

    People like Patterico get the vapors when some gruesome imagery reaches the comment section of Protein Wisdom -- and then excuses other gruesome imagery on the same board based nothing but some line he (and those like him) made up. It's soooooo boring.

    Don't like someone saying that they wouldn't mind if someone's kid got Benay'd? Why would you think that exhorting people to lynch Supreme Court justices is right? Both are ridiculous and inflammatory on their face. To excuse one as 'satire' or hyperbole and not the other is simply the game of fraud.

    They are both idiotic, but only one is actually ideological in scope, past their mutual sociopathy.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Minor point - although for now the Bushies seem to have conceded that the Genva Conventions do apply to the Guantanamo prisoners, these are the same folks who to this day claim that they neither condone nor permit torture. Why should I or anyone take these Bushies at their word? On anything?

    The DoD letter at issue simply observes that the Court held that Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applies to military detainees and asked the subordinate commands to determine whether they are in compliance with that Article.

    This is not a change of position of any kind. Hamdan is the law of the land...until reversed by Congress.

    So much for the "lawbreaking" executive...

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Glenn, I think you mean Temper, not Tempter Tantrums.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous6:01 PM

    So much for the "lawbreaking" executive...

    Because there could never be such a thing as a "lawbreaking" executive - because the executive is the law, right Bart?

    ReplyDelete
  52. anon, see this -
    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/12/president-always-right/

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous6:07 PM

    anon, see this -
    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/12/president-always-right/


    Saw it. And somewhere, Bart is going, "Yeah? So?"

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous6:07 PM

    With Sister Toldjah weighing in (Oy, the comedy writes itself sometimes)...

    Anyway, for vacuous and reactionary blogger who deletes posts -namely ones that easily prove her dead wrong, S.T.'s two cents on the matter are worth that much at best -2 cents.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous6:09 PM

    And so is Glenn Greenwald:
    Document #1147; November 8, 1954
    To Edgar Newton Eisenhower
    Category: Personal and confidential


    Dear Ed: I think that such answer as I can give to your letter of November first will be arranged in reverse order--at least I shall comment first on your final paragraph.

    You keep harping on the Constitution; I should like to point out that the meaning of the Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is. Consequently no powers are exercised by the Federal government except where such exercise is approved by the Supreme Court (lawyers) of the land.

    I admit that the Supreme Court has in the past made certain decisions in this general field that have been astonishing to me. A recent case in point was the decision in the Phillips case.3 Others, and older ones, involved "interstate commerce." But until some future Supreme Court decision denies the right and responsibility of the Federal government to do certain things, you cannot possibly remove them from the political activities of the Federal government.

    Now it is true that I believe this country is following a dangerous trend when it permits too great a degree of centralization of governmental functions. I oppose this--in some instances the fight is a rather desperate one. But to attain any success it is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon "moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid...

    [I]n all governmental fields of action a combination of purpose, procedure and objectives must be considered if you are to get a true evaluation of the relative merits...

    I suppose that even the most violent critic would agree that it is well for us to have friends in the world, to encourage them to oppose communism both in its external form and in its internal manifestations, to promote trade in the world that would be mutually profitable between us and our friends (and it must be mutually profitable or it will dry up), and to attempt the promotion of peace in the world, negotiating from a position of moral, intellectual, economic and military strength...

    No matter what the party is in power, it must perforce follow a program that is related to these general purposes and aspirations. But the great difference is in how it is done and, particularly, in the results achieved...

    You also talk about "bad political advice" I am getting. I always assumed that lawyers attempted accuracy in their statements. How do you know that I am getting any political advice? Next, if I do get political advice, how do you know that it is not weighted in the direction that you seem to think it should be--although I am tempted at times to believe that you are just thrashing around rather than thinking anything through to a definite conclusion? So how can you say I am getting "bad" advice; why don't you just assume I am stupid, trying to wreck the nation, and leave our Constitution in tatters?

    I assure you that you have more reason, based on sixty-four years of contact, to say this than you do to make the bland assumption that I am surrounded by a group of Machiavellian characters who are seeking the downfall of the United States and the ascendancy of socialism and communism in the world. Incidentally, I notice that everybody seems to be a great Constitutionalist until his idea of what the Constitution ought to do is violated--then he suddenly becomes very strong for amendments or some peculiar and individualistic interpretation of his own...


    Eisenhower and Social Security

    ReplyDelete
  56. As bgno64 pointed out, David Neiwert has been blogging about the eliminationist rhetoric of the right for years. I know this is your blog, Glenn, but you might want to link to his site just once in awhile.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Hilarious! Anonymous Liberal can't legally rebut the Justice Article II argument, so he turns to a NRO pundit.

    Bart, as you are no doubt aware, I've devoted literally dozens of posts to this issue and have rebutted the article II argument any number of times, in detail. In this particular post, I felt there was comedic value in allowing the President's chief legal apologist on this issue to do the rebutting for me.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous6:10 PM

    Mr. Greenwald, I only discovered your blog last week and I find it one of the best out there. I've noticed that the right-wing trolls like to come to your site more than others - I do believe this is because you scare the living hell out of them and they are hoping they can bully you out of it. Bullying is there only weapon that's why they use it constantly. Well, keep up the good work it's much appreciated!

    ReplyDelete
  59. So the wingnuts got their shorts in a twist over the NYT article on Cheney and Rumsfeld's homes. It should have been obvious that the Times reporting crew had prior permission to visit the property and shoot photographs. Given that we are talking about the homes of the Vice-President and the Secretary of Defense, did Glenn Reynolds and the other moonbats think that the Times crew just walked up to those properties and starting shooting pictures?

    Isn't it kinda sorta obvious that those homes would have had a security detail posted, and that it would have been impossible to shoot photos without prior permission?

    Oy.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Glenn

    It's obvious these rightwingers taken to task in your post are irate that their Dear Leader W is nothing but the most abject, miserable failure ever in US Presidential History

    It's further obvious that they're going mad trying to find some way to counter W's daily slide in the approval ratings

    Fact is, that lack of popular support is now why various GOP office-holders and candidates don't overwhelmingly flock to be seen with W at every opportunity, an unpleasant reality the GOP's media-whores & lackeys-like those mentioned in this post-can't spin to their liking in any way, shape or form

    These idiots have so firmly attached themselves to the W anchor now dragging down the entire GOP that they know their time is almost past when it comes to having any influence whatsoever

    So, like spoiled brats throwing a conniption/hissy fit, they yell and scream, thinking that if they just wish for something hard enough-like "legitimacy", it will magically come to pass

    Every single time the President gets rebuked with unpleasant realities that can't be cheerfully spun away is yet another jab at these idiots willful ignorance in blindly supporting any and all policies and statements proclaimed and enacted by Dear Leader W

    Basically, these losers are all atwitter because those of us who happily think on our own don't immediately bow and humble ourselves for every one of the numerous lunacies they spout on a constant basis

    It's just vindication of Glenn's posts every single time these US Taliban wannabes stamp their little feet and hold their breath until their otherwise frustration-reddened faces turn a nicer shade of blue when attempting to respond to one of GG's posts

    And what enrages them the most is that they know, deep in whatever withered soul-shreds they have left, that the President will NEVER again enjoy the support of the majority of the US public, and even worse, they see they do NOT represent the political or social mainstream in this country, most notably shown with the extremists who thought getting the GOP involved in the Terri Schiavo fiasco would bear nothing but the most pleasant of ripened fruit

    Didn't quite work out that way though, instead, they got very properly slapped down by the larger society disgusted at their attempts to score political points off the suffering of a brain-dead woman unable to speak for herself

    They rant, rave, bitch, gripe, moan and groan away because, in the end, that's ALL they can do about it

    Nothing these GOP lackeys/sheeple can do will get W back in the public's good graces, they know it, and they refuse to deal with it like adults

    Poor W lackeys, sure sucks to be them right about now

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Bane said...
    You, Miter Greenwald, are a vagina of the first order, and I do not like you at all.

    HA HA HA HA HA!

    Bane proves your point yet again, Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous6:24 PM

    A.L. said...

    Bart: Hilarious! Anonymous Liberal can't legally rebut the Justice Article II argument, so he turns to a NRO pundit.

    Bart, as you are no doubt aware, I've devoted literally dozens of posts to this issue and have rebutted the article II argument any number of times, in detail.


    Perhaps I missed it. If so, I apologize in advance.

    To restate, the argument is that no provision of Article I gives Congress the power to limit or eliminate the President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups or their agents in the US.

    Would you mind humoring me and either link to a prior post or restate here which provision of Article I you claim gives Congress the power to limit or eliminate this established President's Article II power and why.

    Please limit yourself to the language of the provision and interpreting court cases.

    I have already heard the argument that a future court might rewrite the Constitution in the future to allow Congress such authority. So long as we have judges with God complexes, that is a given.

    Rather, I am curious whether you can point to a scintilla of current legal authority which would rebut my argument to which Justice has joined.

    ReplyDelete
  63. "The president is now knowingly breaking the law of the land"

    Time to impeach?

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous6:34 PM

    JaO said...

    bart: In contrast, Justice and I observed that there is no Article I provision empowering Congress to regulate the President's Article II power to collect intelligence.

    Actually, the Justice letter did not assert unambiguously that there was no such Article I provision, only that there was "no similarly clear expression" of congressional authority as there is for the UCMJ.


    Justice is artfully implying what I have been bluntly saying.

    Justice is writing a lawyered letter to a powerful opposition member of the Senate who can create a great deal of trouble for DOJ from his committee.

    On the other hand, I have no need to be political and state straight out what I believe and why.

    Of course, if DOJ lawyers want to make either form of that argument -- their own mealy-mouthed "maybe FISA is unconstitutional" or your own "FISA is definitely unconstitutional" -- they are free to do so in a test case that would settle the issue.

    The first form would be laughed out of the highest court -- "What do you mean maybe the law is unconstitutional, Mister Solicitor General?" The second would be surely be rejected 8-1 or 9-0.


    Really?

    There is not a single member of of the Court which has held that Congress may act without constitutional authority to limit the President's Article II powers on foreign policy and war.

    Rather, the narrow 5 (not 8 or 9) member majority in Hamden took pains to cite the express Article I provisions which allowed Congress to enact rules concerning the treatment of Captures through the UCMJ.

    ReplyDelete
  65. "And all of that leaves to the side the fact that they were unable to comprehend the actual arguments that were made in the post..."

    More likely, they understood your arguments perfectly, they were just unable to refute them, hence the ad hominem attacks. This is all the right has.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous6:44 PM

    Bane needs to grow a brian.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous6:45 PM

    Frankly, it's just too much effort. You, Digby, Niewart, Billmon, and a couple of others get away with it constantly because 1) few want to get into a flame war; and 2)the distortions and hyperbole contained in one of your long winded posts are so numerous that its like walking into the kitchen after a huge party and seeing dishes stacked to the ceiling. No one wants to even start a job like that.


    So they have the time to dig up that Glenn missed some obscure filling deadline but not the time to come up with an argument? Riiigght.

    Even funnier not 20 minutes after someone writes this

    if you call them on it, you're "lowering the level of discourse" or "shrill"

    We get this

    the more you try and defend yourself, the more shrill you sound.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous6:46 PM

    From Bart at 6:24pm:

    Please limit yourself to the language of the provision and interpreting court cases.

    It would behove you to do the same. Your assertions about Article II have yet to be tested in Court, so for the moment they remain but one of many arguments on this matter.

    How about waiting for Glenn's post on the subject before corwing victoriously?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous6:46 PM

    Glenn, you're not being fair (re: item #1). If they had either wit or wisdom, they wouldn't be conservatives.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous6:48 PM

    Glenn,

    This is just food for thought after reading the earlier Rick Moran post. It seems that almost invariably when conservatives meet a viewpoint which is contrary to their own and they aren't able/don't want to come up with a substantive argument against it, they will throw out the same insults:

    Hysterical, Shrill, Breathless.

    My own thought is that it is partly to impugn the 'manliness' of the person making the point. It might just be that even the vocabular they use is being effected by that ridiculous echo chamber effect.

    I think it would be hard to find something else more unintentionally funny.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous6:53 PM

    "an average, unemployed lawyer."

    Hey that's what they call me when I point out that they are wrong! I guess that must be a good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous6:57 PM

    AL:

    Thanks for the link. I presume you are adopting the quoted comments by Professor Dorf on the subject, which are as follows:

    For if the President's default power to order
    warrantless surveillance stems from his
    inherent default authority as Commander in
    Chief of the armed forces, then surely the
    specific authority of Congress, expressly
    granted by the Constitution, to prescribe
    rules and regulations of those same forces
    can change the default.


    This comment in passing is an assumption without any authority.

    We have explored this provision here on multiple occasions and found that no court which has reviewed this provision of Article I has ever held that it empowers Congress to do anything other than enact rules for the good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services.

    Professor Dorf continues:

    (To be sure, one might object that the
    Congressional power to write rules and
    regulations for the armed forces does not
    apply to the NSA, because the NSA is a
    civilian rather than a military agency. But if
    so, then the President likewise lacks
    authority over the NSA as Commander in
    Chief. And in any event, Congressional
    power to create the NSA in the first place
    surely includes the subsidiary power to write
    rules constraining the agency. If not, then
    nearly all of modern administrative law is
    unconstitutional.)


    Modern administrative law in no way limits executive constitutional powers.

    Rather, modern administrative law is the delegation of limited quasi legislative and judicial authority to the executive. The Court only let Congress get away with what should be an unconstitutional delegation of its powers and responsibility to the executive by requiring that Congress put limits on the executive's exercise of the delegated legislative and judicial power.

    Thanks for rebuttal, such as it is. Do you have anything else?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous7:02 PM

    Bart:

    Does Article II give inherent powers to the executive to regulate a civilian agency?

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous7:02 PM

    'shrill' and 'proper conduct' don't apply to them, they only apply to others. why? cause they say so. they are so spoiled by the affirmative action that their point of view enjoys that they feel free to let the poop fly whenever somebody hits a nail on the head.

    Glenn, you hit the nail on the head. We shrill moonbats can't be reasoned with. rope, tree, somebody who thinks for themselves.
    some assembly required.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous7:04 PM

    yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 6:24pm: Please limit yourself to the language of the provision and interpreting court cases.

    It would behove you to do the same. Your assertions about Article II have yet to be tested in Court, so for the moment they remain but one of many arguments on this matter.


    The President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering has been upheld by the Courts on multiple occasions and is not in question.

    What has not been tested by the Courts is whether Congress has the Article I power to enact FISA to limit the President's established Article II power.

    In lieu of such an opinion, I am trying to get Glenn and the folks here to seriously discuss this issue.

    How about waiting for Glenn's post on the subject before corwing victoriously?

    I have been waiting for weeks for Glenn to make a supported legal argument on the Article I issue.

    Now, I am openly goading him at every opportunity to do so.

    Perhaps, you would like to lend your voice to request that Glenn address the subject at hand???

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous7:08 PM

    Glenn,

    See what happens when you write a book critical of George Bush and his policies?

    All hell breaks loose.

    I'm afraid this is just the beginning. The attacks will become even more coordinated and vituperative. The comments section, having been invaded by disruptors like "bart" will become more chaotic. More visibility from you = more anger from them.

    To be honest, I have no interest in the petty or not so petty blogger-to-blogger disputes or disagreements. After a while they all seem to degenerate into I-said-you-said ether and, as the rightwing know all too well, those who proclaimed the loudest and present the best strawman win.

    With all that, I urge you to continue what you do (and do it very well). There will be very dark days ahead that no doubt will test your courage and fortitude.

    We need voices like yours.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous7:09 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Does Article II give inherent powers to the executive to regulate a civilian agency?

    I am not sure exactly what you are getting at. However, I would note that Article II vests the President with all executive powers, whether the agency executing those powers is military or civilian.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Kudos to Andrew McCarthy for manning up.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Thanks for rebuttal, such as it is. Do you have anything else?

    I love it. It's as if you think you've dispatched this argument already. Nevertheless, I'll indulge you. Here's another post making a different set of arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous7:20 PM

    From Bart at 6:57pm:

    We have explored this provision here on multiple occasions and found that no court which has reviewed this provision of Article I has ever held that it empowers Congress to do anything other than enact rules for the good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services.

    Wrong. Article I.8.14 has been brought up several times, but you have yet to quote a single case or decision that expressly prohibits either its employment or limits its scope. The fact that Congress has, to date, limited its use of this clause is immaterial to the authority it imparts.

    If you can provide any decision that definitively addresses and limits this clause, please do so now.

    Modern administrative law in no way limits executive constitutional powers.

    Give the powers of the Executive as enumerated in the Constition are minimal and ambiguous (to put it generously), I would not be so quick to say Administrative Law has no application to them.

    Nice try, but no cigar.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous7:27 PM

    From Bart at 7:04pm:

    The President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering has been upheld by the Courts on multiple occasions and is not in question.

    The laundry list of cases you are so fond of quoting, with two exceptions, predate the passing of FISA do they not? And the two that are post-FISA (the Sealed Case and Turong cases I believe) have no applicability to the debate over Presidential authority. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

    So why keep reciting the same list? Any new rulings that actually address the issue?

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous7:29 PM

    * GWOT: one incredibly expensive mess after another.
    * Homeland security: first choice indicted, second choice incompetent.
    * Global respect: gone.
    * Ports and Borders: a sieve.
    * Axis of Evil: badder than ever.
    * Moral issues: nothing.
    * Social security: nothing.
    * Cost of living: skyrocketing.
    * Hope for the middle class: nothing.
    * Size of government: expand it and make future generations pay.

    PNAC/neoconism/conservatism is a complete and utter disaster. And this opinion is coming from longtime respected conservatives.

    The ever shrinking wingnet needs to scapegoat somebody for all their problems.

    It’s all they have left.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous7:32 PM

    Hearing Glenn filed his attorney registration renewal form late has me given me serious pause re: my former high opinion of him.

    Apparently, the Right blogosphere does some serious, really shattering investigative work every so often. Of course, a story that big probably only happens once every few years.

    Also the guy who used douchebag three times in one post (title and two references in text)?

    Am I the only one who thinks that is too funny to even write about? Douchebag. Douchebag. Douchebag. That writer sure knows how to turn a phrase...

    And Glenn's own openings get funnier and funnier, I guess because he is writing about funnier and funnier things. Not too much humor in torture or injustice but the right blogosphere is a whole different story.

    Other than Glenn's links I never go/went to those sites because the one Right blogosphere site where I used to go (The Volokh Conspiracy aka The Danish Cartoon Site) was so stupid and pathetic and such an obvious propaganda mouthpiece that it didn't provide many belly laughs. Just nausea.

    Lastly, I always get a chuckle when Glenn is described as a "leftist" on all those sites to which he links.

    I've been reading his blog every day since he started and I have yet to read even one statement that would indicate he is a "leftist."

    But shush, let's keep that quiet..... Don't want some lefty to come forth and call Glenn a douchebag four times.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous7:32 PM

    The results of this kerfluffle are also entirely predictable. The offender on the Left lost her job. The thugs on the Right got lots of back pats all around, and advocating violence against anyone who disagrees with them becomes that much more normalized.

    - Sagra

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous7:38 PM

    Glenn, I can and will categorically call you a liar.

    You bloviated:


    "So that's the level of discourse that comes from right-wing bloggers, every one of whom cited here -- each and every one -- doled out solemn lectures this weekend about how terrible it is for people to write mean personal insults on the Internet, only to respond to my post today with the above-excerpted tantrums."


    I did no such thing. I pointedly responsed to attacking children, particularly Jack Roberts (a 4-year-old targeted for "oppo research" inot his sexuality by Kossacks) and Jeff Goldstein's child.

    Read it again. The first time obviously didn't sink in.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous7:44 PM

    Given that journalists have become the favorite target for this incendiary and violence-inciting rhetoric from the Right……

    Let’s not forget, Glenn, that it isn’t just the right-wing blogosphere who is using incendiary language, but right-wing editorial pages as well, especially that of that of the Wall Street Journal, which, as Frank Rich points out:

    “The Journal is not Fox News or an idle blogger or radio bloviator. It’s the establishment voice of the party in power…

    June 30 (“Fit and Unfit to Print”), an instant classic, doesn’t just confer its imprimatur on the administration’s latest crusade to conflate aggressive journalism with treason, but also ups the ante…

    What was groundbreaking and unsettling about the Journal editorial was that it besmirched the separately run news operation of The Journal itself.”


    In short, the right-wing nuts on the WSJ editorial page have smeared their own reporters – as the voice of the party in power, that’s their job, but they forgot something – “blowback can be a bitch.”

    The “voice of the party in power” has become so extreme, so insulting and dangerous to journalists that a “civil war” has broken out at the Wall Street Journal itself.

    The editorial page at that paper has been extreme for a long time, but like everything else in this country, we’re breaking new ground once again. As the Observer reports:

    The wall between news and opinion has traditionally been a tall and sturdy one at The Journal—with missiles lobbed over it. The editorial side has never been afraid to pick its own facts to support its arguments, even if those facts conflict with the ones reported in the paper’s news columns.

    “They’re wrong all the time. They lack credibility to the point that the emperor has no clothes,” said one staffer whose reporting has been at odds with an editorial crusade.

    But the current disputed facts concern The Journal’s own news-reporting practices. And the news staff has viewed the editorial as an outrageous presumption—made worse by Mr. Steiger’s lack of a public response.

    “To have Paul Gigot as our captain is bullshit,” one staffer said. “It’s not for real.”

    “I’ve been here 16 years, and in my 16 years, this is something different,” political reporter Jackie Calmes said.


    Now admittedly, the editorial page did not explicitly threaten their own journalists, but they called “treason” on the Times for reporting the very same story, smearing the integrity and patriotism of their own employees in the process.

    My point in bringing up this “civil war” at the WSJ is to note that the extremism we are seeing on the right wing blogs does not start or stop there - it goes right to the top of the “voice of the party in power” because this extremist rhetoric emanates from the administration itself.

    Let’s not forget that. It comes from Bush. It comes from Cheney. It comes from Rove. It comes from leaders of the party - it is an epidemic, and the festering pus emanating from Misha’s lowly blog is emblematic of the much bigger problems that starts at the very top.

    Glenn’s recent posts have been focusing on the excrement found in the right blogosphere, but let’s not forget just whose excrement it is, and who is responsible for it.

    ReplyDelete
  87. I'd like to second the opinion above concerning Neiwert's work.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous7:45 PM

    Instead of threatening fellow Americans the wingnet could help America by giving the boys in Iraq some relief while releasing their aggressions.


    1-800-GOARMY

    ReplyDelete
  89. Glenn’s recent posts have been focusing on the excrement found in the right blogosphere, but let’s not forget just whose excrement it is, and who is responsible for it.

    You're absolutely right. I only thing the blogosphere is important because it so vividly illustrates how the Right thinks and behaves.

    The raw nature of the blogosphere - daily posting, no editing, high emotions - allows a much clearer and less controlled picture to emerge of how political movements think and behave.

    I write about the Right-wing blogosphere not because the right-wing bloggers themselves are important (although some do have large readerships and real influence), but because they are illustrative of the political movement itself.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I'd like to second the opinion above concerning Neiwert's work.

    The problem is that one can only read so many blogs each day, and I read a huge number already.

    I've read several Dave Neiwert posts in the past, especially on eliminationist rhetoric from the Far Right, and found them excellent. The fact that I don't rely on his posts or link to them much (I have, in fact, linked to them before) doesn't suggest that I don't they're good, just that I don't read that blog on a daily basis and so his posts aren't the first thing I think of when I need to document a claim.

    ReplyDelete
  91. I would like to thank you, Glenn, for being one of the rare sane, logical, and measured public voices in America today. I don't comment anywhere that often, nor do I often express the appreciation that I should for the work of people I hold in esteem. I just thought I'd add my small voice here to those of your many admirers and beg for you to keep up the good work. You came along just when I started to think that all hope was lost.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous8:15 PM

    Glenn writes: But I will acknowledge that I'm surprised that, even as an initial matter, they are so brazen in pretending that Hamdan doesn't undermine their NSA defenses.

    This is an interesting comment which touches upon a subject about which I could now write a book.

    That Eisenhower quote really was powerful. Sounds like he was a very wise man. I guess I would say that if that was his essence, combined with his statements on the military/industrial complex, I would call myself an "Eisenhower conservative."

    But ah, the flaw....He didn't think he was surrounded by a bunch of Machievellian conspirators out to promote a radically different agenda for America than anything he would have ever imagined?

    He was wrong.

    Eisenhower was an innocent and an optimist. Glenn is an innocent and an optimist. Ayn Rand was an innocent and an optimist.

    By "innocent" I don't mean naive. I mean a moral, rational, honorable person who doesn't have a handle on how impure most others are, or how willing the public is to tolerate impurity.

    It's not that they don't see evil. Their antennas are particularly alert to it. They know it, they see it, but they still hold out hope there are heroic people who will be galloping around the next bend.

    They just can't accept the truth about the caravan.

    But the bottom line is you have to be an innocent and an optimist to be a great leader. Nobody who comes to think of mankind as corrupt and the disintegration of any society as inevitable still wants to be a leader for the forces of good.

    So personally, I think Glenn's optimism is one of his strongest points if he is to play a leadership role.

    PS. To new commenters: To post using a name, check "Other" and then type the name you select in the NAME slot. You don't need a web page. That's it.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous8:19 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Glenn,

    This is just food for thought after reading the earlier Rick Moran post. It seems that almost invariably when conservatives meet a viewpoint which is contrary to their own and they aren't able/don't want to come up with a substantive argument against it, they will throw out the same insults:

    Hysterical, Shrill, Breathless.

    My own thought is that it is partly to impugn the 'manliness' of the person making the point. It might just be that even the vocabular they use is being effected by that ridiculous echo chamber effect.

    I think it would be hard to find something else more unintentionally funny.

    6:48 PM


    As perfectly encapsulated by 'Bane,' whose deepest blow aganst Glenn was to call him 'a vagina.' I seriously hope Bane has NO contact with female humans of ANY kind. Ick. I hate sociopathic misogynists, really a lot.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous8:19 PM

    Bob Owens, did you read that post you linked to? Nothing like that happened.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Now, if Confederate Yankee (there's an oxymoron for the ages) had a better command of irony (and of English), he would've called you Lord of the Dense (as I do Bush) instead of opting for the singular and odd noun.

    But literacy is an option with right wingers that are best left unexercized.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous8:32 PM

    Bob Owens...I did no such thing. I pointedly responsed to attacking children, particularly Jack Roberts (a 4-year-old targeted for "oppo research" inot his sexuality by Kossacks) and Jeff Goldstein's child.

    Rarely is the question asked: "Is our Bob Owens learning?" "Is our bloggers learning?"

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous8:33 PM

    Cornfederate Spankee!

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous8:38 PM

    Glenn is an innocent and an optimist. Ayn Rand was an innocent and an optimist.

    And therefore, concludes the ever-more-deliriously-silly Eyes Wide Open, that makes Glenn Greenwald and this blog “objectivist.”

    They just can't accept the truth about the caravan.

    The dog doesn’t bark, he bites. The man howls. The Caravan loses a wheel, and it decides to camp where it is, not moving on.

    And like the motionless Caravan camped at the side of the road, young Wide Eyes just can’t accept the truth that he’s been bitten by a dog that didn’t bark, and that Glenn’s optimism does not make him a worshiper of Ayn Rand.

    God, how I wish that man with the glazed eyes would stop howling and that he’d take his freaking camped out caravan and move on.

    Good doggie.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous8:41 PM

    Merry Frischmas and a prosperous Fizzlemas...

    ...(giggle)...this has been one helluva summer thus far: Kos caught, Jerome Armstrong..what a nutbag..stock scammer and astrology idiot, Greenwald being exposed as a moron vis-a-vis Gilliard, Armando being busted as an actual WalMart employee, the Clownhouse propaganda group exposed, Deb Frisch getting her crazy as canned...now Joe Wilson is caught right by his tiny little nuts....man this crap is fun, fun, fun...

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous8:47 PM

    I hate to break it to you..but, yeah...you really are a douchebag:

    The “A Bush Kultist fends off his singular moment of existential crisis” poem
    for Glenn Greenwald****

    “One time, drunk on Scotch
    and heavy with crab bisque,
    I found myself wondering,
    Why do the terrorists hate
    us so?

    “But then I sat up straight,
    shook it off, and had my
    butler fetch me a ripe homo,
    Whom I promptly condemned
    to hell.”

    —written on a yacht piloted by laughably underpaid Haitians, July 11, 4:22 PM

    Posted by Jeff Goldstein

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous8:48 PM

    Perhaps Mr Goldstein might want to look up the side effects of the meds he's taking.I'm not being snarky,I'm being serious.Klonopin and other similar meds often induce high levels of aggression.

    I watched my niece fall completely to pieces on meds like this one,it's not uncommon.Many times the side effects are worse than the disorder(s)they are meant to help.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous8:54 PM

    Glenn,

    The Psychotic Patriot is always amazed at how much advice you get. You know, over and above the concern trolls. I mean the editing/typing/
    layout/sectioning advice. So many people think, with nary a blog post to their names, that you need advice on how to blog.

    Your posts are extremely well-written and whatever length or brevity they present to the reader is irrelevant to the fact that you unerringly and with delicately-understated snark eviscerate Wingnuttia mercilessly.

    Your legal mind works in excellent tandem with your sense of propriety and moral justice,so keep doing exactly what you're doing just the way you do it. Bravo.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous8:59 PM

    Perhaps Mr Goldstein might want to look up the side effects of the meds he's taking.I'm not being snarky,I'm being serious.Klonopin and other similar meds often induce high levels of aggression.

    You, too, are a douchebag, anon. Where has Goldstein been aggressive?

    Did he threaten to sexualy molest and murder a two year old like Deb Frisch did?

    What...no?....I didn't think so

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous9:00 PM

    prunes said...
    Justice Deparment Lawyer Steven Bradbury: "The President is always right."


    Unless he is a Democrat.


    Bush is always right but never correct.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous9:01 PM

    Seriously, Glenn, to echo michael:

    I'm surprised that a person of your education and experience would bother

    I read this blog because of your terrific insights and analyses - but this crap is just tedious and depressing. These rightwingers are jackasses, pure and simple. Enough said, screw 'em, move on. What's the point of wasting your time and considerable intellect on these fools?

    ReplyDelete
  106. I have a question for the lawyers here regarding the threats of hanging, and the overall threats of violence that the far right blogos are spewing out:

    Aren't verbal threats legally considered the criminal act of Assault? Couldn't they be charged for issuing threats of violence on other people?

    And, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't threatening a single judge a serious criminal offense? Shouldn't the guy issuing the threat of hanging five judges be at least under investigation for making that statement?

    This shouldn't be a First Amendment issue. This should be a criminal case. Please let me know if I am correct in saying so.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous9:02 PM

    Glenn,

    I normally avoid blogosphere foodfights here like the plague. Simply because given the parties involved they inevitably are childish and solve nothing. For all the reasons you note, including Instapundit, et al. etc.

    But while I agree whole heartedly with your analysis of the anger and eliminationist sentiment that underlies more and more of the extreme and even mainstram Right online these days, I have to ask you:

    What did you expect by writing your piece? Did you honestly expect any of them to engage in a moment's introspection?

    I doubt you did. You are far too bright for that. Your observation would be further fuel for the psychic batteries recharging on an Enemy.

    So, the purpose then would be your close: (a) to highlight the issue; (b) note the hypocrisy; and (c) possibly create a meme that will sink into the mainstream media for further coverage.

    Two -- (a) and (b) -- are accomplished. I wouldn't hold my breath on (c). Most of the latter are too cowed.

    But job well done.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous9:04 PM

    That much is true, but so was Reagan. I expect you are too young, or stupid, or both to remeber, or care.

    No..I "remeber" quite well...Reagan was never into astrology, moron. Maybe Nancy was, not The Man himself....dumbass.

    Merry Fizzlemas

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous9:07 PM

    ...oh yeah...Merry Frschmas, too

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous9:15 PM

    Shitdip cock slappee...Reagan was never into astrology, moron. Maybe Nancy was, not The Man himself.

    Actually, you are correct. It's a joke to call what Ronnie and Nancy were into "astrology". If you called your wife "Mommy" (in your case, Dick-slapping Daddy), like Reagan it's safe to assume who was wearing the dress during that presidency. The Man?

    Bwahahahaha!

    Run along. Somebody must be waving their cock around someplace. Go get slapped silly.

    Jeane Dixon (January 5, 1904 – January 26, 1997) was one of the best-known American astrologers and psychics of the 20th century, due to her syndicated newspaper astrology column, some well-publicized predictions and a best-selling biography.

    Born Jeane Lydia Pinckert in Medford, Wisconsin, but raised in California, Dixon was very reluctant to release personal details. She was married to James Dixon from 1939 until his death, but they apparently had no childen.

    She is best known for allegedly predicting the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. In the May 13, 1956, issue of Parade Magazine she wrote that the 1960 presidential election would be "dominated by labor and won by a Democrat" who would then go on to "[B]e assassinated or die in office though not necessarily in his first term." She later admitted, “During the 1960 election, I saw Richard Nixon as the winner.”

    Dixon gained public awareness through the biographical volume, A Gift of Prophecy: the Phenomenal Jeane Dixon, written by syndicated columnist Ruth Montgomery. Published in 1965, the book sold more than 3 million copies. A devout Roman Catholic, she attributed her prophetic ability to God.

    President Richard Nixon referred to Dixon as "the soothsayer" and ordered preparations for a terrorist attack she had predicted (see [1]). She was also one of several astrologers who gave advice to Nancy Reagan during the presidency of Ronald Reagan.

    Dixon was so well-known that John Allen Paulos, a mathematician at Temple University, coined what he called the "Jeane Dixon effect", in which people loudly tout a few correct predictions and overlook false predictions. Many of Dixon's forecasts proved false, such as her prediction that World War III would begin in 1958 over the offshore Chinese islands of Quemoy and Matsu, that labor leader Walter Reuther would run for president in 1964 and that the Soviets would land the first man on the moon.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous9:23 PM

    Actually, you are correct. It's a joke to call what Ronnie and Nancy were into "astrology". If you called your wife "Mommy" (in your case, Dick-slapping Daddy), like Reagan it's safe to assume who was wearing the dress during that presidency. The Man?

    Bwahahahaha!

    Run along. Somebody must be waving their cock around someplace. Go get slapped silly.


    Are you drunk?

    ReplyDelete
  112. michael:

    free clue for anonymous: you do not win a debate simply by proclaiming, 'you suck! I win!'

    Ummmm ... brave little "anonymous" can't afford it.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous9:29 PM

    "President Richard Nixon referred to Dixon as "the soothsayer" and ordered preparations for a terrorist attack she had predicted (see [1]). She was also one of several astrologers who gave advice to Nancy Reagan during the presidency of Ronald Reagan."



    If Bushco and DHS would use Nixon's methods, it would be a vast improvement over the current methods.

    I'd rather be drunk than slapped senseless by dick all day long, shitdip.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous9:30 PM

    michael:

    free clue for anonymous: you do not win a debate simply by proclaiming, 'you suck! I win!'


    In Bushworld we can and do!

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous9:32 PM

    Redwretch said...
    Doesn't it sound like the conserva-blogs are still in high school?


    More like the "special school" they take the "short bus" to.

    ReplyDelete
  116. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  117. I read this blog because of your terrific insights and analyses - but this crap is just tedious and depressing. These rightwingers are jackasses, pure and simple. Enough said, screw 'em, move on. What's the point of wasting your time and considerable intellect on these fools?

    If you really read this blog, you wouldn't ask this question, because I've addressed it countless times, including in the Comments section yesterday. I also wrote a post a month or so ago entitled "Why Right-Wing Extremists Merit Attention." If you're interested in the rationale, you can find it there.

    I write on my blog about the things I think are important. I've explained many times why I think this is important, and I'm going to continue to write about it.

    I read a lot of bloggers and am huge fans of some of them. But there isn't a single one for whom I can say that I love every single post they write. Each of them at some point writes about things I think are unimportant, and when they do, I just skip those posts, rather than writing to tell them what to write about. I suggest that you try that, too, because I couldn't disagree more with the idea that right-wing extremism should be ignored. As far as I'm concerned, the more attention right-wing extremists get, the better.

    ReplyDelete
  118. So, the purpose then would be your close: (a) to highlight the issue; (b) note the hypocrisy; and (c) possibly create a meme that will sink into the mainstream media for further coverage.

    You're precisely right in every respect. But I do think that journalists can be induced to write about the increasingly deranged and violence-inciting rhetoric and tactics which are becoming a staple of the right-wing blogosphere.

    If for no other reason than because they are so often the targets, I think it is quite possible to induce journalists to write articles of that sort, and I think the benefits of that can be very significant.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Glenn:

    In fact, that was actually the opposite of the point I was making - I was satirizing that point - but none of them can digest that, even though several people - including me and Jon Henke - have explained it to them repeatedly.

    Yeah, that's a problem. In today's "black is white ... no ... seriously, yes it is!" world, satire is dead. Dead, dead, DEAD, I tellya. It flies 40,000 feet over these people's heads, and they sit and gawk at the contrails like signs from Gawd.

    What can ya do? At least, I can have some fun needling HWSNBN; he's almost smart enough to catch on to some of it.

    And for you RW trolls out there reading this: This is how you do it -- the thin stiletto that leaves no mark but pierces t0o the heart. Study and learn ... if you can -- "douchebag" is so gauche....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous9:45 PM

    Redwretch said...

    Doesn't it sound like the conserva-blogs are still in high school?


    Dipshit is STILL in high school!

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous9:49 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  122. free clue for anonymous at 4:51 PM: you do not win a debate simply by proclaiming, 'you suck! I win!'

    I can see Ickle Annie now: "But -- but -- but the nice men at the Leadership Institute said that this worked all the time! Wahhhh!"

    i hate to say it Glenn, but you're dealing with the 23% crowd John Dean is talking about.

    no amount of persuasion, reasoning, or clarity will ever swing their ilk out of the irrational, nilhistic mindset that has firmly taken root in their lived experience.

    this is their reality and they will fight to the death to preserve it. moreover, just like any Nazi, given the access to levers of power, they will hunt you down, imprison you and probably kill you if given the chance.


    The thing is that they can't admit their real reasons for being "conservative" -- namely, that they would rather starve themselves than see tax dollars going to indigent black people.

    They know enough to know that they can't quite yet be openly racist in America -- there are too many Hispanics, for one thing -- but they will speak in code that everyone knows, yet pretends not to know.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous9:54 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  124. HWSNBN, unforthcoming as ever:

    Maybe you might want to finally provide an actual legal argument to rebut Justice's Article II position since you have declined for weeks now to do so.

    Why should Glenn bother. HWSNBN keeps "arguing by repeated assertion" that the executive has plenary power to spy on people (and note that there's no distinction between aliens and U.S. citizens in this argument), but HWSNBN has yet to cite any Article II language that says anything about spying as a power of the executive. How an article that says nothing on the subject matter in question is support for a plenary power is rather hard to fathom, but HWSNBN is convinced. Trouble is, his repeated assertions to that effect are not convincing, and hardly need any rebuttal.

    If HWSNBN goes on his usual dissembling rant and says that this power is an "incident" to the CinC powers, he'd faced with the problem that Title 10 of the U.S. Code is "planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, man's laws" (and a dime to HSWNBN if he can recognise the quote) which regulate in all kinds of ways the U.S. military and the options of the "CinC" ... all passed by Congress, and nary a one ever overturned for infringing on any plenary powers of the preznit. I've pointed this out on more than one occasion, and HWSNBN has ignored it each and every time. Until he finds a way to explain Title 10's continued existence, his "argument" isn't worth a hill'o'beans, and there's nothing for Glenn to address.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  125. As far as I'm concerned, the more attention right-wing extremists get, the better.

    Exactly. It makes it that much harder for the more "mainstreamed" cons to put any daylight between them and their less-politic kin.

    Which is why I love seeing troll explosions on blogs. They just can't resist letting the masks slip and showing their true selves.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous10:01 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous10:02 PM

    to those that insist on maintaing the talking points of the new york times story

    NEW FLASH;

    the presdient informed everyone of the programs written about in this story all by his lonely presidential self

    he did it live

    on tv

    every station

    around the world

    every radio

    around the world

    it's on his website

    swift has their own friggin website telling even more then the new york times told

    here's one exvellany quote from former cia anti terror specialist, larry johnson...pay heed;

    Quote:
    Secret?
    By Larry Johnson | bio
    If you still labor under the fantasy that the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and the Wall Street Journal divulged "classified information" that put U.S. lives at risk or hampered our ability to track terrorist financial assets, you are willfully ignorant or have been living in a sensory isolation tank.


    oach

    but right on target for those that have no other source for their information but corpoate media.

    Larry goes on to source his statement with all of the vast instances in demonstration if you would like to go to his website

    yet corporate media are puppeteers, they make believe this story is some kind of security breach and the mindless masses repeat the obsurd claim like marionettes...their wooden jaws moving up and down in sick unison as if on the same string

    they even use the same words when they repeat the rediculous claims the pupeteers have them repeat

    how embarrassing for them

    NEWS FLASH II

    the ONLY new information is that these searches are done without warrants...that's the news flash...these searches were done without anyone to see if your priivate information is being stolen...information that might have NOTHING to do with national secuiry...that's the story that's reported, that's the only story.

    sorry to disabuse the marionettes from the obsurd claims the pupeteers had you repeat.

    when people that want to protect their "party" leader are given facts before their very eyes, just how far can they bury their head?...they will repeat CLEAR lies anyone tells even when they know what they are saying can't possibly be true...it's utterly bizzarre.

    with this program and no warrants, with no doubt the president and vice president can steal your company secrets, with the financial information they are able to gather they can take over your most valuable contracts, find your sources, they can out bid you, they can glean the people who have become your personal contacts you've spent your entire carreer to discover, they can steal your trade secrets, they can tell where you've been, where you are going, what you are doing, what you have done, what you are buying, to who you are selling, what price you pay, what price you get, how you manufacture your goods, how you develope your product

    that's the short list and only the first few things that come to mind, the long list is too tiresome to post.

    ONCE keeping our personal affairs private was a concervative position...how easy for "party loyalists" to change..."concervatives" have abaindoned yet another princicple...surprise surprse...are there any left?

    "concervatives" not only think it's fine and dandy (now), they get mad if anyone exposes these crimes commited against Americans...why is this postition no longer a principle of the republican party?... their "party" leader wants to do it that's why, so "let's just abandon ALL of our principles why don't we.".

    yet the most important thing to the marionettes have closed their eyes;

    there is NOTHING that would not have been gathered WITH warrants and WITHOUT breaking both the law and the oath this president made to god and country

    nothing...not one thing....nada...zilcho...zero...ummm...nothing

    the ONLY reason to conduct searches without warrants is if you want to gather information that has nothing to do with national security, information nobody would agree you should have.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous10:10 PM

    How do I know this?? Two words: Karl Rove. He's not one to let scruples or the Constitution get in the way of seizing an advantage wherever possible.

    10:05 PM


    Two words: Merry Fizzlemas

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous10:11 PM

    JaO said...

    bart: There is not a single member of of the Court which has held that Congress may act without constitutional authority to limit the President's Article II powers on foreign policy and war.

    Once again, you commit the fallacy of assuming your own conclusion -- that Congress is without constitutional authority to regulate domestic surveillance (including surveillance by military personnel).

    There also is not a single member of this court that has ruled that Congress has no such authority. In fact, no court at any level has so held.


    My point exactly.

    I was rebutting the claim that 8-9 justices would find that Congress has the power to enact FISA to limit the Article II power to conduct intelligence gathering by pointing out that there is no history of prior holdings to back up this claim.

    ReplyDelete
  130. jao said,
    It would help readability if you broke your blog posts into two or more top-level items when the subjects are mostly unrelated.

This is especially true once the commingled comments and commenters on such diverse subjects start accumulating. This thread is a good example.

    I think this is an excellent suggestion. Maybe Glenn could take it a step further and create another blog, I think there may be some interest in the NSA issue, he could do all of the Right Wing (formerly Bush Supporter) blogger posts here and maybe guest post on the NSA blog every once in a while. I understand there may be brand dilution issues, but at least I will know which threads to troll.

    Many posts being deleted today. Seen quite a few of these lately.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Bart's posting of cases to uphold the President's "inherent authority" to engage in warrantless surveillance inspired me to do a little enlightened layperson's research on his cases. Like any lawyer preparing a brief, he cherry picks and cites out of context to make his client's case sound as strong as possible. Bart cites pre-FISA cases that hold the President has "inherent authority" to wiretap without a warrant. What does he have to say about post-FISA cases that address the constitutionality of FISA, and on separation of powers as well as Fourth Amendement grounds? Cases like U.S. v. Falvey, 540 F.Supp 1306 (E.D.N.Y. 1982) and U.S. v. Pelton, 835 F.2d 1067 (4th Cir. 1987) that find FISA strikes a "reasonable balance" between the government's need to gather intelligence and citizens' right of privacy? And what about cases like U.S. v. Megahey, 553 F.Supp. 1180 (E.D.N.Y. 1982) and U.S. v. Duggan, 743 F.2d 59 (2nd Cir. 1984) that find that FISA did not unreasonable inject the courts into matters of foreign policy (which, by implication, can be taken to me did not unduly infringe on the executive, which we all agree is responsible for foreign policy).

    And in the spirit of fairness and balance, what do Glenn (or JAO) have to say about the Sealed Case that Bart also cites? After reading it over as an enlightened layperson, some parts of it do read like an invitation to the President to challenge FISA as an unconstitutional infringement on his authority.

    ReplyDelete
  132. The right really have become a pack of moral degenerates. I left a comment on Deborah Frischer's blog when that outrage du jour broke and because I failed to piss on her like everyone else was doing a deranged rightwing blogger wrote a post branding me as a danger to his children.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous10:19 PM

    Our dipshit said: “man this crap is fun, fun, fun...”

    Like I said, it’s all the wingnet has left.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous10:23 PM

    Poor little dipshit

    Trolling the intelligence of others with his pathetic little insults is the high point of it's life, and that's the saddest part, Dipshit's puny little life will never reach a higher summit than trolling on others blogs

    Maybe, just maybe, if you do a sparkling enough job of trolling, your GOP masters will let an obvious lackwit such as yourself into their club

    Of course, they laugh at your dumb ass instead, but such is the burden for the trolls to bear, being laughed at by those they troll for

    Seriously, why don't you get your own blog, as opposed to taking marching orders from your social and economic superiors?

    Good Luck lil' trooper, here's hoping your trolling stays far more relevant than the President is at this point, you know, seeing as how he can't catch or kill bin Laden

    You remember Usama bin Laden don't you, the theological thug who gave the go ahead for the deadliest terrorist strike in history, here, on US soil, under W's watch?

    Because it's obvious W's forgotten what happened on September 11 and just who was responsible, that can be the ONLY explanation as to why W gave UBL a free pass to okay another strike against the US in order to remove a dictator long backed by various US Administrations who was absolutely NO threat-now or ever-to the US

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous10:28 PM

    A.L. said...

    I love it. It's as if you think you've dispatched this argument already. Nevertheless, I'll indulge you. Here's another post making a different set of arguments...

    Why is the unconstitutionality argument so weak? There are a whole host of reasons. First, FISA has been on the books for over a quarter century and has never been challenged.


    Jim Crow was on the books for decades. That hardly made those statutes constitutional.

    Second, even if it is unconstitutional, it's not at all clear that the president has the power to declare a duly enacted statute (which, it's worth noting, was signed into law by a previous president) unconstitutional. That's generally considered to be the role of the judicial branch.

    The courts have long held that the President may ignore statutes which he reasonably considers to be unconstitutional.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/nonexcut.htm

    When it comes to domestic surveillance activity, there is no case law and no language in the Constitution that suggests that the president has exclusive authority to set the rules. Congress's powers are every bit as broad under the Constitution as the president's, and this isn't a situation like the pardon power where the Constitution specifically delegates authority to the president alone.

    Really? Name the provision(s) of Article I which grant Congress comeasurate power with the President to direct and conduct intelligence collection?

    Congress surely has an interest in seeing that the constitutional rights of Americans are protected.

    The Courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US which does not violate the 4th Amendment. Therefore, Congress cannot be enforcing the 4th Amendment if it seeks to limit that Article II power.

    Prior to the passage of FISA, the constitutional rights of countless Americans had been routinely and systematically violated in the name of protecting national security. Executive abuse of power was well-documented. Congress's goal in passing FISA was to protect Americans from this sort of abuse.

    I agree. However, there is not one shred of evidence that the NSA Program is engaged in surveillance of American citizens for their political views ala Kennedy, Nixon and Clinton.

    With no warrant requirement and no judicial oversight, there is no way to prevent or even detect abuse. It's that simple.

    This has nothing to do with the constitutionality of FISA, but I would point out that the job of oversight of intelligence gathering is the job of Congress, not the courts. The courts have repeatedly observed that they do not have the expertise to do this job properly.

    So if Congress cannot, as the DoJ suggests, mandate an exclusive procedure for conducting domestic surveillance, then Congress is powerless to stop the sort of abuses that occurred in the 1960s and 70s and powerless to protect the constitutional rights of Americans. That is, quite simply, an untenable conclusion, and one that I'm positive no court will come to.

    Once again, thanks for the rebuttal. However, as much as I enjoy shredding these arguments, do you have anything to offer as to the provision of Article I which give Congress the authority to limit the President's established Article II power to gather intelligence?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous10:38 PM

    as far as the hamden case

    contrary to right wing pupeteers and what the marionettes are repeating now, the supreme court did not pressure to get these people released, they pressured to insure this amok administration abide the law and honor the treaties America, Congress, and previous presidents have GUARANTEED we would honor in times and situations JUST like this...this supreme court took steps in an ATTEMPT to return America's ability to negotiate treaties which happens to be VITAL to naitonal security...THIS president has made our reputation for honoring treaties WORTHLESS...HOPEFULLY this decision will be the first step in mend the damage this president has done to this country, her reputation, and her ability to protect our future with treaties that countries might THINK we will honor.

    as far as these people in custody, nobody has any CLUE whether or not they commited ANY act of aggression at all, and if ANYONE thinkS they are not eligeable for geneva protection you are misinformed.

    this decision has NOTHING to do with the prsoners citizsenship and NOTHING to do with any one person's definition of "prisoner of war", OR gonzales's definition of "prisoner of war". OR the presidents definition of "prisoner of war"

    nothing what so ever

    this decision has to do with the laws of CONGRESS and the treatiies that this country is engaged and might hopefully engage in the future, no thanKS to this president and his insane determination to undermine America's future ability to broker a treaty.

    treaties this country has INSURED she would honor, treaties that are there to protect OUR soldiers and our ability...treaties this president is NOT allowed to ignore, nor is he allowed to interperate, he is BOUND BY OATH to INSURE the law is followed...he put his hand on the bible and gave his sacred oath to this country and god that he would fulfill that obligation...he CANNOT make law, he CANNOT interperate law in opposition to existing interperatation, he is BOUND by the interpretation of the supreme court, this is a fact it is not an opinion

    now to inform the marionettes of information corporate media has not made, (oh, I wonder why that is)...I will educate the marionettes exactly what the supreme court decision repudiates...to be SURE, it is FAR differant then the pupeteers have led yu to believe

    the president actually claimed he could make up any law he wanted, make it up out of thin air, even after the action took place, even after the arrest, and then he could charge anyone at all with the crime he just invented from whole cloth...nobody could challenge whether the law should or should not be a law, no matter how rediculous.

    for instance (cause I'm sure marionettes need an example), the president thought he could say "now it's illegal to pray to Allah at 3 pm ", and then he could charge people with that prayer even if they never prayed to Allah after he invented the law, even though the only time they prayed to Allah was before the law came out of this presidents own head.

    that's not even the worst of it;

    he claimed that captives do not have to be told what crime they are charged...ever

    that the lawyer would not be told what crime to defend...ever

    no evidence would need to be presented, the lawyer would not know the evidence or ever see it.

    the lawyer wouldn’t be present at trial, nor able to argue at trial

    the captive could never ever prove he's innocent even if he was, he could never ever force a trial...never ever.

    third and fourth party evidence could be used from people who might have agenda to steal property or position, all they have to do is claim "they heard someone tell someone."

    there are other even more rediculous and obsurd claims made by the administration I hesitate to even mention they are so barbaric and so depraved they are hard to believe and I don't want to take this thread to yet another direction

    this decision against the president's notion of his immunity from our law tells him that he is bound by the laws of congress...EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT, the president did not know it...you obviously don't know it either

    the president is bound by our law, the very law that made him president

    how hard is that to follow?

    the marionettes are told the presinoers are NOT covered by the Geneva convention.

    of course they are, the pupeteers are not 'the decider" of what or who the geneva convention covers, nor is the president "the decider", the supreme court and the countries that are signators are the 'deciders"


    what EXactly are you trying to defend?...are you serious? do you even know what you just posted?....or are you under the imprssion that ALL Iraqi's are terorists and it doesn't matter WHAT we show them/

    the supreme court's decision FACILITATES national security, REAFIRLMS our law and GUARDS our country and her principles...things I guess marionettes have NO concerN

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous10:41 PM

    I am amazed at the contortions right-wingers can perform, but it looks to me like our resident barbarian has slipped.

    How else can one explain saying this:
    However, as much as I enjoy shredding these arguments...

    Right after saying this:
    So if Congress cannot, as the DoJ suggests, mandate an exclusive procedure for conducting domestic surveillance, then Congress is powerless to stop the sort of abuses that occurred in the 1960s and 70s and powerless to protect the constitutional rights of Americans. That is, quite simply, an untenable conclusion, and one that I'm positive no court will come to.

    He just destroyed his own assertions!

    Hey Bart, have you ever considered applying for Cirque Du Soleil?

    ReplyDelete
  138. I personally think you guys spend way too much time reading right wing blogs. And please don't tell me that it's part of a strategy to "know your enemy". What more is there to know about them? You can predict their response to every issue, down to the clever catchphrases and passive-aggressive soundbites. That's what's so great about the internet - you can just filter out the garbage. Beyond a cursory introduction to each "rising star" of the right wing blogosphere, it's really not necessary to maintain a continual watch on them. Why spend your life reading stuff you can't stand by people you despise?

    ReplyDelete
  139. Maybe Glenn could take it a step further and create another blog, I think there may be some interest in the NSA issue, he could do all of the Right Wing (formerly Bush Supporter) blogger posts here and maybe guest post on the NSA blog every once in a while.

    You seem to have some pretty strong ideas about what a blog should be, what type of posts it should have and it shouldn't have - ideas which I've made clear to you I don't agree with and won't adopt. So rather than coming here over and over and telling me how this blog should be different, how posts that I write don't belong here, isn't a much better idea - a much more fruitful expenditure of your time - to start your own blog, and that way you can have it be everything you want?

    I'm happy to read constructive suggestions like the one from JaO about how to improve the blog's readability, etc. And I'm equally happy to have discussions and debates over whether certain approaches and tactics are fruitful. But what I don't find useful - what I actually find amazingly presumptuous and increasingly annoying - is when someone comes here and repeatedly tells me that I should stop writing certain kinds of posts, or stop writing about certain topics, that I obviously want to write about.

    The whole point of a blog is for someone to write what they want to write and how they want to write about it, and the solution for those who don't think it's worthwhile or interesting is to skip those posts or not read the blog altogether -- not harangue the blogger and demand that they stop writing about certain topics.

    Many posts being deleted today. Seen quite a few of these lately.

    The only posts that have been deleted are the posts from "Dipshit," whom I previously requested to reduce the frequency of his posts, particularly the two-line adolescent ones.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous10:54 PM

    Enlightened Layperson said...

    Bart cites pre-FISA cases that hold the President has "inherent authority" to wiretap without a warrant. What does he have to say about post-FISA cases that address the constitutionality of FISA, and on separation of powers as well as Fourth Amendement grounds?

    When the lawyers crap out, a lay person actually offers some case law!

    Maybe now we can have a legal discussion instead of wasting time smacking down baseless polemics masquerading as legal proof.

    Cases like U.S. v. Falvey, 540 F.Supp 1306 (E.D.N.Y. 1982) and U.S. v. Pelton, 835 F.2d 1067 (4th Cir. 1987) that find FISA strikes a "reasonable balance" between the government's need to gather intelligence and citizens' right of privacy?

    As I have posted before, I do not believe that FISA is facially and totally unconstitutional. It is perfectly constitutional when providing warrants for the gathering of criminal evidence in national security cases. Where it gets into trouble is when applied to intelligence gathering.

    The Falvey and Pelton cases affirm the constitutionality of FISA under the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments in criminal prosecutions.

    And what about cases like U.S. v. Megahey, 553 F.Supp. 1180 (E.D.N.Y. 1982) and U.S. v. Duggan, 743 F.2d 59 (2nd Cir. 1984) that find that FISA did not unreasonable inject the courts into matters of foreign policy (which, by implication, can be taken to me did not unduly infringe on the executive, which we all agree is responsible for foreign policy).

    Any chance you can provide some quotes? I do not have access to these cases online.

    And in the spirit of fairness and balance, what do Glenn (or JAO) have to say about the Sealed Case that Bart also cites? After reading it over as an enlightened layperson, some parts of it do read like an invitation to the President to challenge FISA as an unconstitutional infringement on his authority.

    They have already dismissed this inconvenient case as meaningless dicta. Dicta it might be, but it reveals the view of the FISA review court to which jao keeps saying should render an advisory opinion in some sort of Justice test case without a defendant with standing to be found.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous10:57 PM

    Snowwy said...

    I am amazed at the contortions right-wingers can perform, but it looks to me like our resident barbarian has slipped.

    How else can one explain saying this:
    However, as much as I enjoy shredding these arguments...

    Right after saying this:
    So if Congress cannot, as the DoJ suggests, mandate an exclusive procedure for conducting domestic surveillance, then Congress is powerless to stop the sort of abuses that occurred in the 1960s and 70s and powerless to protect the constitutional rights of Americans. That is, quite simply, an untenable conclusion, and one that I'm positive no court will come to.


    This is not my statement, its ALs. Sorry to disappoint you.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous11:02 PM

    “A neo-conservative is a liberal who's been mugged by reality.”

    I have found that mugging is a very poor way to influence another’s beliefs. I suggest you call this number when you feel like mugging someone: 1-800-GOARMY

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous11:13 PM

    How do I tell difference between a neocon and a libertarian mugger? When I wake up after getting mugged I know it was a neocon because I am dripping blood. With a libertarian my pants are unbuttoned.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous11:17 PM

    Bart,

    "
    The courts have long held that the President may ignore statutes which he reasonably considers to be unconstitutional.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/nonexcut.htm"

    Wrong, mushmouth.

    Before posting, it would be "human" to read your own links, first. You presume the "executive" determines constitutionality. Not what your link says, donkey.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous11:26 PM

    Misha himself once commented on Patterico's blog. Here's what he had to say:

    For this to work, we’d have to fire all of our existing judges first.

    What’s wrong with summarily executing them? It’s quick and it saves a lot of money in the long run.

    Not to mention how aesthetically pleasing those long black robes flapping in the wind would be.


    Did he condemn the man on his own blog? Nope. He welcomed Misha on a separate post.

    Also gratifying was receiving comments from folks who run great blogs, like the comment from Spoons, and another comment from the always controversial Emperor Misha I.

    I tried to post this on Patterico's blog, but the comment mysteriously vanished with nary a trace.

    Luckily, I saved a screenshot.

    Patterico is a fraud.

    - Sev

    ReplyDelete
  146. HWSNBN pretends he has an original thought:

    Before finding that the UCMJ trumped the President's general Article II authority to convene military commissions, the Hamdan Court cited multiple express provisions of Article I which empower Congress to set rules for the treatment of Captures and thus the UCMJ provisions which do just that.

    Yes. The power to regulate the military, make rules for "captures", etc. Make a note of that, folks.

    In contrast, Justice and I observed that there is no Article I provision empowering Congress to regulate the President's Article II power to collect intelligence.

    Nor is there an Article II provision which says that the preznit has the "power to collect intelligence". My, how thoughtless of the founders. Guess they figured that most people would be smart enough to figger out the all the little particulars.

    Therefore, we both conclude that Congress has no such authority and FISA would be found unconstitutional if applied to intelligence gathering.

    Well, HWSNBN can be called by the OLC to support the maladministration, saying that he agrees with them ... and they can say that, yes, they agree with his perceptive analysis, HWSNBN having read their brief and agreeing with it and finding it devastatingly persuasive. A veritable circle-jerk. All one needs to do to win a case is to trot out enough bloviators patting each other on the back for their brilliance in their briefs. Of course, HWSNBN probably agreed with the gummint brief in Hamdan and that didn't help the gummint all that much....

    HWSNBN's problem is that while the preznit is empowered to "see that the laws be faithfully executed" and that is not just his power but in fact his duty, Congress has long passed all kinds of laws that affect how and under what circumstances the preznit may perform this duty ... all this despite the fact that the Constitution is pretty much silent on federal criminal law. When Congress is specifically empowered to make rules for regulation of the military, it's hard to argue that Congress has less power to regulate the hows and whys and whens of military operations, when they've been doing so for standard law enforcement for years, not to mention certainly doing so WRT the military. But HWSNBN will continue to do so ... until the Supes slap the preznit and him silly again, and he's reduced to saying "the Supes are wrong -- wrong -- I tell ya...."

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous11:44 PM

    Jao,

    Thank you. With all this leagal-speak it might be easy to overlook the obvious as stated by the SC. War is not a blank check for the pres. Period. The defenders of the "unitary excutive" seem to be debating the meaning of "is" here. A tactic they completly despised not long ago. They are full of it. They are capitans going down with the ship.

    ReplyDelete
  148. HWSNBN still as iggnerrent as ever about civics:

    Hamdan is the law of the land...until reversed by Congress.

    Congress can't "reverse" Hamdan. All they can do is comply with its dictates. The Hamdan court pretty much invited them to step in if they wanted. What the court said was that Dubya couldn't do anything without their action. HWSNBN seems to have missed it, but that was their ruling.

    HWSNBN's iggnerence is stunning in its sweep.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  149. Glenn said,

    You seem to have some pretty strong ideas about what a blog should be, what type of posts it should have and it shouldn't have - ideas which I've made clear to you I don't agree with and won't adopt. So rather than coming here over and over and telling me how this blog should be different, how posts that I write don't belong here, isn't a much better idea - a much more fruitful expenditure of your time - to start your own blog, and that way you can have it be everything you want?

    But I have:

    Why Don't You Get Your Own Blog - Blog

    I am curious if the same logic befalls politicians and journalists when they think about bloggers. If you have something to say then run for office or get a job at a real publication.

    But what I don't find useful - what I actually find amazingly presumptuous and increasingly annoying - is when someone comes here and repeatedly tells me that I should stop writing certain kinds of posts, or stop writing about certain topics, that I obviously want to write about.

    You are obviously free to write about whatever you choose. I am obviously free to make fun of, complement or ignore any of your posts.

    The whole point of a blog is for someone to write what they want to write and how they want to write about it, and the solution for those who don't think it's worthwhile or interesting is to skip those posts or not read the blog altogether -- not harangue the blogger and demand that they stop writing about certain topics.

    Although, I am certainly not bound by any unwritten rules about what blogs are for, if you are asking me to not criticize your Right Wing blogger posts, you have certainly earned enough respect in my eyes that I have no problem complying with such a request.

    Please don't confuse a demand for excellence with a demand for silence. That has never been my intention.

    I will take the opportunity to again ask you to expand upon your strategy for attaching right wing pundits to the face of the republican party. What is the goal for such a plan and what kind of a timeframe do you see this unfolding over? In my own view, it is overly optimistic to see this as having any effect in time for November or even 2008.

    Is the plan to indirectly help the democratic party as a whole by hurting the republican party as a whole? If so, do you see this as a somewhat risky approach when the democratic party has such a unclear line of succession over the next few years?

    The only posts that have been deleted are the posts from "Dipshit," whom I previously requested to reduce the frequency of his posts, particularly the two-line adolescent ones.

    Thanks, when you delete posts I think it is helpful to post the who and why, it gives people an idea of where the lines are.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous12:04 AM

    War is not a blank check for the pres. Period.

    that's how it works in banana republics...... the government declares a state of emergency and imposes martial law, suspends the constitution, or otherwise rules by decree and expediency.

    Government finds it mighty convenient to operate this way, so the 'emergency' lasts indefinitely.

    There is a rather widespread strain of American exceptionalism which believes 'it can't happen here'. Well, it already has. The War on Terra will last indefinitely. After all how can one win a war on terror? If al-Qaeda started using tanks and rifles instead of suicide bombers and IEDs, would the 'war' be over?

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous12:36 AM

    Bart said,
    We have explored this provision here on multiple occasions and found that no court which has reviewed this provision of Article I has ever held that it empowers Congress to do anything other than enact rules for the good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services.

    Ignoring your repeatedly refuted opinion as to the reach of Article 1, sec. 8,
    what makes you think when the President is "Commander in Chief [...] when called into the actual Service of the United States" he is somehow not an "individual member of the uniformed services", immune to Congressionally mandated "good order and discipline"?

    Maybe a quick fix to this whole mess (and to STFU all the bart's out there) is simply to include in the UCMJ a section on "Commander-in-Chief"?

    Any suggestions on what such a section ought to say?

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous12:37 AM

    JaO said...

    bart: I was rebutting the claim that 8-9 justices would find that Congress has the power to enact FISA to limit the Article II power to conduct intelligence gathering by pointing out that there is no history of prior holdings to back up this claim.

    The vote-math of the current court on the Article II/ separation-of-powers issues was exemplified in the Hamdi case two years ago. In that case, the administration won 5-4 on the AUMF statutory issue, but lost 8-1 on its separation-of-powers claim to exclusive authority over the detainee.


    Dude, stop changing the subject.

    I would have held that Congress can set rules for the treatment of captures because that is what the damn Constitution says.

    Not a single member of the Court in any case has ever adopted your radical reading of Youngstown that the Congress can limit any Article II power regardless of whether Article I enumerates a power which allows them to do so.

    Given that you don't have a single provision of Article I authorizing FISA to limit Article II intelligence gathering, there is no basis whatsoever to cite Hamden or any other case applying Youngstown as precedent.

    The core of the issue revolves around Youngstown precedent, which the adminstration has essentially rejected.

    Where has the Administration ever rejected Youngstown. Give me a quote.

    In Hamdan two weeks ago, the majority and minority both embraced the Youngstown framework explicitly.

    So do I. However, without an Article I power, FISA fails the Youngstown test.

    So if the constitutional issue ever were presented squarely to this court, I would expect all the justices, except possibly Thomas, to find against the President.

    Every single justice in every case applying Youngstown has first pointed out the power under which Congress was acting. Therefore, you do not have any precedent for applying Youngstown without a predicate Article I power. None, nada, zilch, zippo...

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous12:40 AM

    this is the problem glenn. few other blogs, journalists, etc are focusing on the right things. so they call you names. pointing out facts that clearly illustrate how the far right has been deceiving itself leaves only two options:

    changing their views (when abaddon freezes over, they will) or villifying you. you need backup by democrats and other moderates, independents, etc. to finally start focusing on the right things. take this comment and show them. they marginalize the wrong things (oh, yeah, the propaganda of the right has NO influence on American perception and politics today. and -- I cant think of an analogy that does this justice, so I'll use a positive analogy. michael jordan had no infuence on the chicago bulls. please democrats, get a clue!! recognize what is happening in america today, why, and how to correctly focus on it.

    ReplyDelete
  154. HWSNBN:

    There is not a single member of of the Court which has held that Congress may act without constitutional authority to limit the President's Article II powers on foreign policy and war.

    There's not been a case on it despite FISA being around for 35 years. And no president has blatantly ignored it or challenged it ... until now. We'll see if he has the balls to actually challenge it.

    HWSNBN is really full of himself (must be that distinguished "criminal prosecutor" career that's getting to his head):

    Rather, I am curious whether you can point to a scintilla of current legal authority which would rebut my argument to which Justice has joined.

    Wow. Justice signed on to the esteemed HWSNBN's opinyun! Next thing you know, they'll be having him step up and argue it to the Supreme Court. But HWSNBN isn't a member of the Supreme Court bar, and Colorado DUI shysters don't carry much clout....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Whew! I've browsed the comments on this post off and on throughout the day. The usual battles with bart, I see. Much heat, a little light. Glenn certainly has a way of finding the exposed nerve, which to my way of thinking, means that he's doing a lot right, and not much wrong.

    And bart, I give you credit for indefatigability, even if much of the time I find your arguments perverse.

    If I understand you correctly on the issue of the President's authority, you think that in matters of national security generally, and in war powers specifically, his constitutional authority trumps even Supreme Court interpretations of what he may or may not legally do.

    I'm willing to assume for the sake of argument that your take on this correct. If so, though, and given the fact that he needn't tell us what he's up to -- state secrets and all -- what institutional guarantees do we have, we citizens who aren't the President in all his glory, that these powers won't be improperly used? In particular, what guarantees do we have that he won't use them against political opponents?

    Do you rememberr recently when Senator Kennedy was prevented from taking a plane because, it was asserted by airport security functionaries, his name was on the "no fly" list? If I had to guess, I'd say some 28 year-old staffer in Karl Rove's office got a good giggle out of that one, and maybe even a pat on the head from Karl himself.

    Seen from the other end of the telescope, though, the fact that such a thing can happen as a prank is rather more ominous than the press played it at the time, especially if someone intended to send the senator a message, Tony Soprano style.

    Of course, it could be a simple "mistake." Kinda hard to believe that, though, isn't it? I mean, if you hear hoofbeats behind you, chances are when you turn around it won't be zebras, will it?

    Anyway, you get my drift. When you grant these powers to one man, he needs to be trustworthy beyond the capacity of most mortals. Maybe Cincinnatus and George Washington would pass that test, but I'm reasonably sure that GWB wouldn't.

    Maybe that's why the framers didn't actually grant the President such powers, as the Constitution clearly states, and ample supporting evidence from writings of the time (The Federalist Papers, et al.) confirm.

    Okay, I understand that you don't find that argument convincing, but how, as a libertarian, do you feel comfortable with the concept of the unitary executive, constitutional or not? I sincerely hope you're not relying on your Second Amendment rights to protect you from the secret police.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Arne Langsetmo said...

    Bart: Hamdan is the law of the land...until reversed by Congress.

    Congress can't "reverse" Hamdan. All they can do is comply with its dictates.


    Hamden is a statutory interpretation case about the requirements of the UCMJ and the UCMJ's alleged incorporation of the the Geneva Conventions.

    Congress can amend the UCMJ and the DAT to reverse every single on of the Court's interpretations in Hamden.

    HWSNBN's iggnerence is stunning in its sweep.

    I love reposting these boasts after gutting one of your spectacularly ignorant assertions.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous12:53 AM

    JaO said...

    bart: The courts have long held that the President may ignore statutes which he reasonably considers to be unconstitutional.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/nonexcut.htm

    Thanks for posting that link, chump. I was just about to post it myself. (The link is to a formal Justice Department opinion advising the White House on what presidents should do if they think a law is unconstitutional.) Among other things, here is what it advises...


    Exactly why should I care what a Donkey DOJ advises his Donkey CiC? That is not the law.

    I note you ignore entirely the dozen or so cases cited in that memo which hold that the President may ignore illegal statutes, even when he signs them out of political expediency.

    Mister President, tell it to the judge.

    They have and the judges have all held that the President may ignore illegal statutes. It is you who are willfully ignoring contrary precedent on this issue and on Article II.

    p.s. bart, when you are in a hole, stop digging.

    Those dirt clot that are hitting your head as you stand in the hole I dug are falling off my shovel.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous12:54 AM

    Oh man Mr Greenwald, I haven't seen this much snorting and whining from right wingers about a liberal since Krugman went pay-for-view.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous12:59 AM

    You are obviously free to write about whatever you choose. I am obviously free to make fun of, complement or ignore any of your posts.

    and he's free to tell you to stop telling him what to and not to write about, so why do you feel compelled to get in the last word on a moot, and somewhat digressive, subject?

    I will take the opportunity to again ask you to expand upon your strategy for attaching right wing pundits to the face of the republican party. What is the goal for such a plan and what kind of a timeframe do you see this unfolding over? In my own view, it is overly optimistic to see this as having any effect in time for November or even 2008.

    I personally appreciate your passion and earnestness, and mean no disrespect. but see my previous post just above entitled "democrats with their heads up their ......"

    why do you think the right wing wins? because they spew forth propaganda (that they themselves tend to believe, making the problem much more intractable). and they do it well. "you're a traitor if you disagree, but with me you're a patriot if you agree, don't you see?" anyway, that's what someone, once told me.... it all boiled to with the far right (and, not coincidentally......., repressive regimes the world over, far as the eye and history both can see

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous1:04 AM

    Oh man Mr Greenwald, I haven't seen this much snorting and whining from right wingers about a liberal since Krugman went pay-for-view.

    greenwald's not even a liberal. that's right wing propaganda bullshit. or at least this blog has not been all that partisan. the facts, lately, have been fairly partisan. which is why the media, not wanting to "appear so," is doing such a shitty ass job covering some of the most important issues and news of our times, furthering the problem.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous1:08 AM

    Wow! This is a study in something I'm sure. The other day I was assured that Henke is the most liberal blogger at Q and O. While that may be the case, I'm sure it pains him to see so many just not get it.

    My own right-wing-nut has posted about Jeff on her reader blog connected to the Houston Chronicle web site. link I have complained to the Chron about her once and gotten a positive response.

    As predicted, Dipshit only shows up on these sorts of posts. The same could be said about me, but hey, I understood what Glenn was doing here and have been doing my own little operation for a bit now.

    I read Glenn for the whole range of topics. As always, thanks for all you do, Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous1:10 AM

    William Timberman said...

    If I understand you correctly on the issue of the President's authority, you think that in matters of national security generally, and in war powers specifically, his constitutional authority trumps even Supreme Court interpretations of what he may or may not legally do.

    No. The text of the Constitution trumps all three branches of government. When the Court makes an erroneous decision in contradiction to the text of the Constitution, it should be reversed by a subsequent Court, not by the President.

    I'm willing to assume for the sake of argument that your take on this correct. If so, though, and given the fact that he needn't tell us what he's up to -- state secrets and all -- what institutional guarantees do we have, we citizens who aren't the President in all his glory, that these powers won't be improperly used? In particular, what guarantees do we have that he won't use them against political opponents?

    There are no guarantees in life. The Congress has the job of oversight over the executive. The Courts have the job of resolving any claims for damages brought by someone who is damaged by Presidential crimes. Finally, we voters have the final say about whether the President is hired in the first place.

    Anyway, you get my drift. When you grant these powers to one man, he needs to be trustworthy beyond the capacity of most mortals.

    Elections have consequences. When you elect a Nixon or a Clinton even though you know they are pathological liars of low moral character, you get exactly what you voted for.

    Okay, I understand that you don't find that argument convincing, but how, as a libertarian, do you feel comfortable with the concept of the unitary executive, constitutional or not?

    The Unitary Executive Theory gained prominence as a criticism of Congress wielding executive power through a special prosecutor because the Constitution expressly grants all executive power to the President.

    I suppose this critique could also apply to the Congress attempting to exercise the executive power of intelligence gathering. However, I see this more as an Article I issue to determine whether Congress that the power to do so.

    I don't see how being a libertarian has anything to do with my view on the subject. The Constitution says what it says.

    I sincerely hope you're not relying on your Second Amendment rights to protect you from the secret police.

    In the end, an armed citizenry in the final wall against any tyranny. As soon as you see some secret police, you let us know. There is very little in this government that seems to remain classified.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous1:11 AM

    And bart, I give you credit for indefatigability, even if much of the time I find your arguments perverse.

    If I understand you correctly on the issue of the President's authority, you think that in matters of national security generally, and in war powers specifically, his constitutional authority trumps even Supreme Court interpretations of what he may or may not legally do.


    bart believes in a king or monarch. you dont think the world has had so many monarchs without some people believing in it, do you? I wonder if bart would have this same belief if it were monarch clinton? He says he would, which either makes him (no offense bart) an idiot, or a true non believer in democracy.

    but he's still shit for brains delusional on the law and constitution in America, regardless of his deep seated beliefs or confusions.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous1:12 AM

    Protect our petting zoos from terrorist attack!

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous1:18 AM

    greenwald's not even a liberal.

    Probably not self-described, but anyone can see by his opinions and intelligence that he was all along, although he may not have thought so. When Dwight D. Eisenhower is considered a socialist, like Nixon, (Milton Friedman said that. Google it), Everyone to the left of Hitler, (John Dean. Barry Goldwater), is a liberal. Sorry, EWO. Not PCR. Not now. Not ever. I'm not sure about Glenn's age, but his whole life growing up he has heard nothing but lies about liberals.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous1:19 AM

    JaO said...

    bart: As I have posted before, I do not believe that FISA is facially and totally unconstitutional. It is perfectly constitutional when providing warrants for the gathering of criminal evidence in national security cases. Where it gets into trouble is when applied to intelligence gathering.

    I realize bart has posted that before. It has been a preposterous statement every time.

    The fundamental purpose of FISA is to govern surveillance for intelligence-gathering purposes. Uh, that's why it is called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.


    Exactly where in my post quoted above do you see any comment on the intent of Congress in passing FISA? What part of "constitutional" did you not understand?

    I have no doubt that the radical Congress first elected in 1974 intended on gelding the President's power to gather foreign intelligence. They also fretted in the legislative history that the Courts would find FISA unconstitutional. They knew they were reaching.

    Once again -- as I said the last time I corrected bart on this point of law -- I am not alleging that such perjury is occurring. Rather, bart simply misstates the law. Again.

    You have not even addressed my constitutional point of law which you quoted above. Instead, you wandered off into the thicket of legislative intent. How in heaven's name can you then claim to have corrected my point of law?

    Time to go to bed. You are rambling...

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous1:21 AM

    very respectably shit for brains bart just wrote that an armed citizenry is a defense against tryanny. in america in the 21st century? does bart have any concept of the extent of our weaponry capabilities? our forefathers were brilliant, but they were not einstein. and it is not very clear that einstein could have foreseeen such weaponry either.

    which is why they also, brilliantly, wrote the Constitution the way that they did, which in "bart world" has no meaning. but bart doesnt see that, and maybe never will. unless he's just making up all his posts. come on bart, get your mind out of the cement that it is stuck in. its one of the bravest things a man can do. (unless you really are a fascist, them, really, spare us. spare me. your posts take up space.)

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous1:23 AM

    Pitiful Pitypatterico whines...
    Sev's comments go into moderation, because he uses the word "f*ckwit" (without the asterisk) and I tend to find that people like that are generally useless.


    Maybe your posts on your blog should go into moderation, ouchebag.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous1:25 AM

    Patterico...But I will deep-six any comment with that word.

    I guess he sunk you battleship, huh, douchebag?

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous1:28 AM

    Patterico’s Pontifications, what a pitiful little blog. He's just here to siphon off some hits. What an enema bag.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous1:32 AM

    Bart said:

    Really? Name the provision(s) of Article I which grant Congress comeasurate power with the President to direct and conduct intelligence collection?

    And then Bart said:

    This has nothing to do with the constitutionality of FISA, but I would point out that the job of oversight of intelligence gathering is the job of Congress

    You contradict yourself Bart. You claim that the Congress does not have commeasurate power with the President to direct and conduct intelligence collection yet at the same time you concede that they do have the power of oversight of that same intelligence collection. If Congress does indeed have the job of oversight of intelligence gathering, which you concede that they do, then they have the power to regulate intelligence gathering in so far as insuring that the intelligence gathering is in fact constitutional and does not violate the fourth amendment guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures of U.S. citizens. They have the responsibility to insure that any warrentless intelligence gathering is in fact conducted against foreign groups and their agents and is not being conducted against U.S. citizens.

    IE: The Congress discovers during it's oversight investigation that the President is indeed conducting intelligence gathering against U.S. citizens in violation of the fourth amendment (lets say for shits and grins the FBI is conducting surveilance of peaceful Quaker meetings), then the Congress has the responsibility to stop the President from conducting such surveilance.

    So the question arises, is the President required to go to Congress to get approval for each intelligence gathering mission to determine it's constituionality in advance? Or is the Congress relegated to finding out after the fact? And if Congress does have to wait and find out after the fact how can they reasonably conduct their oversight duty and insure that the intelligence gathering the President has authorized is indeed constitutional.

    That is why the FISA court was established. To insure that any intelligence gathering authorized by the President does indeed comply with the constitutional restrictions against unreasonable searches and seizures of U.S. citizens, on a case by case basis in advance of any violations being committed.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous1:41 AM

    Patterico, why must you turn this blog into a house of lies?

    I decided to take a screenshot precisely because I knew you'd take it down with no warning, and that no one would call you out on it.

    As you can tell from the screenshot, my comment went straight through to your blog, not into moderation. It only disappeared after about half an hour or so.

    You yourself admit that my comment had been missing until you restored it.

    You've been exposed, fraud.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous1:44 AM

    glenn, you go girl.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous1:45 AM

    The fundamental purpose of FISA is to govern surveillance for intelligence-gathering purposes. Uh, that's why it is called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

    bart said,

    "Exactly where in my post quoted above do you see any comment on the intent of Congress in passing FISA? What part of "constitutional" did you not understand?"

    bart, this issue has been explained to you it seems almost every single time I have been on here. as of this post, I will never respond to you again, under any pseudonyms, real or imagined, or even bother to read your posts. to say your head is stuck in concrete is an understatement. I not gonna continue to debate totalitarianism with someone who does not first realize he is a totalitarian.

    nothing in article II gives the president any inherent authority over Congress (Congress is us by the way) when it comes to matters incidental to "war," including intelligence gathering. re read article II, secion II. to think that it does is fantasy, or a belief in absolute power(totalitarianism)((hint; there is no "end" to intelligence, but that's a "concept", so Im not sure you can grasp it. or, frankly, want to.)

    Im not going to respond to fantasy, or totalitarians who don't realize they are, or people too stupid to even try to learn if they are not in fact totalitarians. why people bother to respond I'm not really sure. but I have, but like to give the benfit of the doubt. but all doubt has been long removed. so my bad. crazy bart. representative of 30 plus percent of America, that doesn have a patterico inspired f*ckwiting clue what the Consitution means, or even what America is.

    ReplyDelete
  175. HWSNBN said:

    This comment in passing is an assumption without any authority.

    Wow. I would have thought HWSNBN would have appreciated the beauty of such an (alleged) argument ... after all, that's his standard modus operandi.

    More HWSNBN blathering:

    We have explored this provision here on multiple occasions and found that no court which has reviewed this provision of Article I has ever held that it empowers Congress to do anything other than enact rules for the good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services.

    Huh? Haven't seen any cites for this proposition from HWSNBN. It's obviously not true as a practical matter, as I keep pointing out WRT the hundreds of statutes (including all of Title 10 around the UCMJ) that have to do with the military, none of which has ever been shown by HWSNBN to have been challenged, much less struck down. And as I've pointed out as well (complete with cites and even quotes), the UCMJ itself applies to more than "good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services". HWNBN ignores this unarguably true objection as well.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous1:54 AM

    BTW, being a good patriot, I bought your book, and plan on enjoying it at the pool this weekend.

    be a better patriot and buy someone who, mislead, voted for bush, a case of beer AFTER they read it at your promise of said case.

    and then email the best paragraphs to every editor in america. (along with a copy of the Constitution, and Hitler's book, entitled, "how to play better pool in 30 days." ooops. wait. wrong book. "fascism for dummies." send THOSE three things to our nation's editors, so someone BESIDES GLENN and a few outraged conservatives can being talking about these things

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous1:58 AM

    Well, bart, you seem to have gone off to bed, but perhaps you'll take a peek here tomorrow.

    The Constitution says what it says.

    And since we all agree what it says, why all the fuss, eh?

    As soon as you see some secret police, you let us know.

    Do I actually have to say extraordinary rendition, or American citizens held as enemy combatants? Is it really such a stretch to imagine that once this sort of precedent is established, not all the American/British/Italian citizens who get disappeared will be named Ahmed or Farhan?

    ReplyDelete
  178. WRT HWSNBN's 'arguments' as to whether Congress has power to regulate anything "military" other than the "good order and discipline of individual members of the uniformed services", I'd point out that IF Congress has no such power, that would be true whether the preznit objected or not (any argument that HWSNBN may put forth that the preznits so far have just let it slide seeing as it didn't bother them -- and that's why there are no court tests so far -- notwithstanding), and anyone else could challenge any such laws insofar as it affected them. No one has done this ... but perhaps an intrepid HWSNBN might be persuaded to defend a drunk-driving former soldier with the claim that only the preznit, as CinC, can legally charge and try a member of the military, seeing as that person could conceivably be called up in an emergency, and locking him up might impair the preznit's "plenary" powers as CinC to "protect the Constitution" in any way he sees fit without Congressional, much less state interference, "from all enemies foreign and domestic".

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous2:17 AM

    Yet, Greenwald in his comments on the controversy completely misses the mark on his arguments and is disingenuous in several points. Patterico specifically shows how off-base G's arguments are (at least in regards to specifics, though there is merit in his general point).

    I generally love the idea of blogs. The ability for people to challenge directly the beliefs and arguments of others in a format not bound by traditional limits, geography, etc. However, this controversy readily reveals the darker side. All in all a sad day for both sides on the blogosphere.

    Am I alone in this?


    yeah, you're pretty much a f*cking idiot. does glenn get everything right, no. but he gets most of it right. and the response by the far right zealots slowly trying to take over america pretty aptly illustrates it.

    they also illustrate that you are probably wrong on the blogosphere, where the incluence goes to those who manipulate and shout the best.

    laissez faire is a beautiful concept. with some oversight for externalities and antitrust, it works pretty well for capilalism. and, ultimately, for ideas it works pretty well too.

    it doesnt work well for facts. which is why far right wing bloggers like malkin, et al., get millions of readers, rather than being marginalized as the far right wing extremists that they are. oh yeah, that, and the facts that democrats dont know how to focus on the right things. (see above post "democrats have their heads up their....")

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous2:26 AM

    Has everyone seen this?

    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/26/wilkerson-vp/

    Why are there not impeachment hearings yet? Why are the Dems not taking drastic political measures to investigate? Do they need a signed confession before they move on this lawless, unconstitutional administration?

    ReplyDelete
  181. HWSNBN is confused:

    [Dorf]: And in any event, Congressional power to create the NSA in the first place surely includes the subsidiary power to write rules constraining the agency. If not, then nearly all of modern administrative law is unconstitutional.)

    Modern administrative law in no way limits executive constitutional powers.

    Unfortunate choice of language. Congres may and in fact has written laws for the "administration" of various things.

    What HWSNBN is alluding to here clumsily is the delegation of "law making" (a plenary and "non-delegable" legislative power) to the executive through the ruse of calling subsidiary and more specific laws "regulations" rather than "laws". It's a matter of expediency. The prime law for this is the Administrative Procedures Act (the APA), which prescribes how the executive (or its agencies) may write regulations (the "CFR" or "Code of Federal Regulations" as opposed to the "USC" or "United States Code") which have the force of law. See:

    Rather, modern administrative law is the delegation of limited quasi legislative and judicial authority to the executive. The Court only let Congress get away with what should be an unconstitutional delegation of its powers and responsibility to the executive by requiring that Congress put limits on the executive's exercise of the delegated legislative and judicial power.

    Here HWSNBN is right (but not very clear): As I said above, this is a bit of sleight-of-hand, to allow those with more subject-matter experience and expertise to "implement" a law by drawing up the specific details that need to be followed (generally done by agencies, who make the "rules" nee "laws" after a prescribed comment period and such). But the courts look askanse at any such riles that look too much liek a shirking of Congressional duty or an over-reach by the executive in making rules. Any such executive "rule" is disfavoured by teh courts if it exceeds or goes contrary to the intent and the mandate of the legislature in writign the more general enabling legislation. No executive "regulations" are Constitutional without at least enabling legislation, and the rules that spring forthwith from the laws must adhere -- at least to a plausible (but sadly, not all that close) extent to the enabling legislation itself).

    But Dorf is right here (despite HWSNBN's bloviations): What Dorf was referring to was not the "regulations" themselves (the CFR) but the legislation, enabling or otherwise, that consists of regulation at a more general level (where the CFR is supposed to fill the gaps), or the more specific where the U.S. Code does it all, of administrative practise.

    To repeat: NO executive regulations are permissible without a corresponding legislative enabling legislation (that does not violate the Constitution by being so general as to constitute a "delegation" of the legislative authority). As Dorf indicated, and as I explain above, absent the supremacy and the authority of Congress, no regulatory law or CFR is possible. Without the ultimate authorityof Congress to set the basic parameters of the rules (or, if it wishes, to write the most specific rules themselves), no administrative regulations are possible.

    Watch HWSNBN ignore this. ;-)

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous2:31 AM

    And why do you all bother with bart? He is full of it and he knows it. He is a passenger on the Titanic who has decided to stay on board and refute the calls for alarm.

    ReplyDelete
  183. HWSNBN:

    What has not been tested by the Courts is whether Congress has the Article I power to enact FISA to limit the President's established Article II power.

    In lieu of such an opinion, I am trying to get Glenn and the folks here to seriously discuss this issue.

    Ahhh, finally, some honesty from the "Great Asserter". HWSNBN decides that it is an "open issue" and not a "slam-dunk" case (to use the maladministration PC term for such). Methinks that HWSNBN ought to instead be encouraging the preznit to test this proposition, as Jao has been suggesting since ... well, the middle ages.

    But one might draw some pragmatic inferences from the fact that no one has tested the constitutionality of FISA in this regard yet ... and that FISA remains the law after three decades.

    And then, for the more ambitious, one might look at related law ... and such cases as Hamdan and Youngstown.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous2:42 AM

    (see above post "democrats have their heads up their....")

    I'm a registered Dem by default. I would normally prefer independent, but not during these times. No way. I do not have my head up my ass, but yes, many of the people in our party, (in office, the consultant class and the DLC), do. Or worse, they are GOP moles.

    Why do the many of the big guns here engage Bart?

    Because he is actually able to construct whole, grammatically and syntactically correct sentences. And it's good practice for them, and fun, probably for both parties.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous2:48 AM

    For those of you whining about Glenn taking these clowns on in a withering full frontal assault, STFU. Yeah you, nobrianfrozen.

    Glenn Greenwald takes no prisoners and he's racking up a body count.

    Cedar Rapids Newspaper Drops Ann Coulter's Column

    Forced by letters from consevatives, not liberals.


    Kick some more ass. We already know their names but soon no one will remeber them.

    ReplyDelete
  186. yankeependragon:

    ... and the two that are post-FISA (the Sealed Case and Turong cases I believe) have no applicability to the debate...

    The Truong case was handed down after FISA, but FISA didn't apply, as it wasn't in effect at the time of the surveillances. In re: Sealed Case, as has been pointed out to HWSNBN multiple times, stated that "we assume" (hardly a definitive statement, or the mark of someone making a positive assertion) such a power ... but only in dicta. Nor did the In re: Sealed Cases court even consider the situation of the preznit's powers in such an instance if such asserted powers were exercised in direct contradiction to the express laws of Congress.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous3:14 AM

    Keith said...

    Has everyone seen this?

    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/26/wilkerson-vp/

    Why are there not impeachment hearings yet? Why are the Dems not taking drastic political measures to investigate? Do they need a signed confession before they move on this lawless, unconstitutional administration?


    Quite simply because the Democrats are in the minority in both the House and the Senate. As such they have no power to call for or demand investigations.

    The party in power controls the agenda and the chances of this Republican Congress seriously investigating one of it's own are slim and none.

    If the Democrats gain control of either house, but especially the house of Representatives which has the sole power of impeachment, in November it will be time for the public to demand investigations into the actions of the President and his administration on a whole range of issues. Actions leading up to the war in Iraq, NSA domestic spying etc.

    ReplyDelete
  188. If you do not think that the country is reeling toward fascism, take a look at Steve Clemons' latest posts on "war for oil" and Rumsfeld/Cheney's "war paradigm."

    ReplyDelete
  189. FWIW, HWSNBN expresses scepticism about the ability of Congress to delegate lawmaking (under the guise of "regulatory") authority (one plenary to the executive, but nary a word on the same delegation of the plenary power to "declare war". Under the limits courts have laid on regulations to adhere to the plenary power of Congress to "legislate", the executive may carry out the intent of any legislation Congress passes through "regulation", but such must fall within both the intent and the scope of the enabling legislation. But under this same reasoning, then Congress could pass a "AUMF" declaring a war against counties "A, B, and C" and leave to the preznit the option as to whether to attack "C" tomorrow, or whether to bomb "A" before "B". But neither could the preznit then attack ... say, "Iraq" ... nor could Congress say "fill in the blank" or "declare war yourself if and when you feel like it". At least that's the way I read it. Yet HWSNBN has no issue with the AUMF.

    Cheers,


    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  190. democrats with said...

    and he's free to tell you to stop telling him what to and not to write about, so why do you feel compelled to get in the last word on a moot, and somewhat digressive, subject?

    First, thank you for your response. Besides that is has been a "get in the last word" kind of week, and agreeing that this whole subject in micro and macro is digressive, but I will admit to a somewhat perverse pleasure in complaining about blogging posts that are complaining about blogging posts. This quote from Glenn could have been written by any of the numerous bloggers Glenn takes to task.

    The whole point of a blog is for someone to write what they want to write and how they want to write about it, and the solution for those who don't think it's worthwhile or interesting is to skip those posts or not read the blog altogether -- not harangue the blogger and demand that they stop writing about certain topics.

    you said...

    I personally appreciate your passion and earnestness, and mean no disrespect. but see my previous post just above entitled "democrats with their heads up their ......"

    I could not be intellectual honest with my own beliefs and self identify as either a democrat or a republican and truthfully, the idea that the spectrum of human philosophical thought exists on a straight line with magnetic poles at each end pulling beliefs to one polar opposite or the other is somewhat silly. That these polar opposites happen to map directly to current political parties strains credulity. The concept itself sounds like something out of The Bible or The Stand.

    If I am going to swallow that much crap I might as well become a Scientologist, much better food.

    As far as trying to teach the current representatives of the democratic party how to exploit the artificial partisan divisions in this country as effectively as the republicans do, I am not sure if it is possible. It could be said that the democrats want power but they don't want to be in power--the republicans suffer no such indecision.

    My interest is not in getting Polly to say "I want a Triscuit" instead of a Saltine but maybe to ask why what is being served at the big table looks like it used to have feathers and wings.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous3:32 AM

    Keith said...

    "And why do you all bother with bart? He is full of it and he knows it. He is a passenger on the Titanic who has decided to stay on board and refute the calls for alarm."


    Because Bart is able to put together a reasonable sounding although flawed argument.

    Failure to answer those arguments will lead some to believe that there is no reasonable refutation to what he has said, and since there is no reasonable refutation, that in fact he must be correct in whatever he has asserted.

    He quite simply cannot be allowed to win by default and therefore must be challenged on the flawed arguments that he chooses to bring up.

    ReplyDelete
  192. Anonymous3:35 AM

    not so rational wrote Glenn is an innocent and an optimist. Ayn Rand was an innocent and an optimist.

    -ergo-

    And therefore, concludes the ever-more-deliriously-silly Eyes Wide Open, that makes Glenn Greenwald and this blog “objectivist.”

    I like it when people who have virtually no ability to use logic think I am delirious and silly. It's reassuring.

    Did I ever say Glenn was an Objectivist? I'd bet good money he's not. I doubt if he ever studied the writings of Ayn Rand or even knows what her basic philosophy is. I was pointing out two particular similarities between Ayn Rand, Glenn and Eisenhower from my own perception and stating why I think that "leaders" have to be optimists about the possibilities of some of their fellow humans to want to play the role of leader instead of cynics which many of us become. Leaders play to an audience. If you hate the audience, why play?

    This blog is not high on my list of places which I would call "Objectivist" in the sense that Ayn Rand meant it.

    Of course, there is no such list which, if you had ever studied the writings of Ayn Rand, you'd realize.

    She was an individual who spoke for herself and was rather fierce about anyone else claiming to "interpret" or speak for her.

    So if I say "Ayn Rand was an optimist and an innocent" that is my observation of how I perceive her. She never said she was either, to my knowledge.

    Post here when the caravan loses a significant enough wheel to have to stop, will you?

    As for Glenn being a worshipper of Ayn Rand, what ever gave you that idea? Certainly nothing I nor he wrote.

    Who is delirious and silly? Look in a schpigl. And there you will also see an irrational person who appears to have a schuk up his/her eisl.

    ReplyDelete
  193. HWSNBN:

    The courts have long held that the President may ignore statutes which he reasonably considers to be unconstitutional.

    ttp://www.usdoj.gov/olc/nonexcut.htm

    Ummm, not quite. What Dellinger said is that the president may -- and sometimes should -- decline to enforce laws that a). he thinks are unconstitutional AND b). he thinks the Supreme COurt will likely overturn. Part of the reason is pragmatic; if the preznit goes along with the law, it may be than to conflict will arise, and thus no final adjudication bythe Supes, who are the court of last resort. Dellinger also suggests a balancing act WRT the effects on people of adherence to the law versus defiance; defiance is not warranted is there's not great and/or irremediable harm in obedience to the disputed law while waiting for a court test.

    In the cases cited, there's no note of whether in cases in which the courts later decided in favour of the legislature and against the preznit, the courts "excused" the ransgressions of the preznit for doubting the legislature. The risk assumed by the preznit in acting icontrary to legislation is that the may find the courts don't agree with him in the end. In some cases, this may just mean a reversal of a case, but of no personal consequence to the preznit. But if the presnit acts contrary to the legislation and these acts are defined to be criminal by the legislation, there's no automatic "good faith" exception (although crimes requiring scienter may be harde4r to prove). In such a case, I know of no court case saying that the preznit is immune from prosecution for breaking a law that was Constitutional and valid, just bevause he disagreed. In fact, such a precedent would be rather problematic for our criminal justice system, no? Or it that a DUI lawyer's dream.....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  194. HWSNBN:

    Really? Name the provision(s) of Article I which grant Congress comeasurate power with the President to direct and conduct intelligence collection?

    sp.: "commensurate".

    But this is the old tired "straw man". No one is saying that Hastert needs to climb telephone poles to "direct and conduct" wiretaps, no more than he's required to get his fat a$$ shot off in Iraq if he declares war on such (much as it would be poetic justice were that the case).

    All that's being said is that Congress may "regulate" the procedures under which wiretaps are performed (much as the UCMJ lays down rules for taking prisoners).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  195. HWSNBN:

    The Courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US which does not violate the 4th Amendment. Therefore, Congress cannot be enforcing the 4th Amendment if it seeks to limit that Article II power.

    Oh, nonsense. Even for your "red herring example", it's quite clear (and explicit in such as Amendment XIV, Section 5, and other similar privisions) that Congress may pass laws to see that the Constitution is obeyed. You won't win a case by insisting that the Fourteenth Amendment wasn't specifically violated, but that 42 USC § 1983 was.

    But there's no requirement that Congress be seeking to "enforce" the Fourth Amendment in regulating wiretaps by the gummint.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  196. HWSNBN misses the boat:

    However, there is not one shred of evidence that the NSA Program is engaged in surveillance of American citizens for their political views ala Kennedy, Nixon and Clinton.

    Actually, there's no shred of evidence that people are not being targeted "for their political views" either. And that is the crux of the problem here. We expect that "probable cause" for a crime having been committed (or, at the very least, similar damage) be the threshold for snooping. While the legal objection to the Nixon snoops had to do with their divorce from any legitimate law enforcement purposes and procedures, the outrage which prompted the Church commission and the FISA laws came from the overt misuse for political ends. But in the end, it is the legal objections which hold sway: You need probable cause (or something akin to it), and you need a warrant checked and vetted by an independent party such as a =judge or magistrate (or something akin to it), just as a ground rule, to prevent abuses of the gummint powers. This is what animated the founders in the Bill of Rights, and what is being ignored by the Dubya executive now, regardless of whether they're snooping on those they have no legitimate reason to. One has to wonder, given their reluctance to submit to oversight (and that's the real sticking point here), what it is that they're hiding.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  197. HWSNBN sez:

    I would point out that the job of oversight of intelligence gathering is the job of Congress, not the courts. The courts have repeatedly observed that they do not have the expertise to do this job properly.

    I've heard this nonsense about the judiciary being incapable of evaluating intelligence operations repeatedly from the Dubya sycophants (and with little rational justification, just the repeated quoting of some judge's dicta on this), but I fail to see why the legislature is any more (or less) qualified. Matter of fact, I could say the same for the executive ... they don't seem to be doing too good on even keeping secrets lately.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  198. Anonymous4:43 AM

    Oh, and one more thing bart, if you do happen by tomorrow:

    In the end, an armed citizenry in (sic) the final wall against any tyranny.

    That sounds to me like the Avon Barksdale theory of civil defense. Not very efficacious, in other words, if the unitary executive really doesn't like what you're up to.

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