Thursday, July 06, 2006

The thug and intimidation tactics of the Far Right go mainstream

As is true for many lawyers who have defended First Amendment free speech rights, I have represented several groups and individuals with extremist and even despicable viewpoints (in general, and for obvious reasons, it is only groups and individuals who espouse ideas considered repugnant by the majority which have their free speech rights threatened). Included among this group were several White Supremacist groups and their leaders, including one such group -- the World Church of the Creator -- whose individual members had periodically engaged in violence against those whom they considered to be the enemy (comprised of racial and religious minorities along with the "race traitors" who were perceived to defend them).

One of the favorite tactics used by such groups is to find the home address and telephone number of the latest enemy and then publish it on the Internet, accompanied by impassioned condemnations of that person as a Grave Enemy, a race traitor, someone who threatens all that is good in the world. A handful of the most extremist pro-life groups have used the same tactic. It has happened in the past that those who were the target of these sorts of demonization campaigns that included publication of their home address were attacked and even killed.

But these intimidation tactics work even when nothing happens. Indeed, these groups often publish the enemy's home address along with some cursory caveat that they are not encouraging violence. The real objective is the same one shared by all terrorists -- to place the person in paralyzing fear. The goal is to force the individual, as they lay in bed at night, to be preoccupied with worry that there is some deranged individual who read one of the websites identifying them as the enemy and which provided their address and who believes that they can strike some blow for their Just Cause by visiting their home and harming or killing them. The fear that they are vulnerable in their own home lurks so prominently and relentlessly in a person's mind that it can be as effective as a physical attack in punishing someone or intimidating them.

This thuggish tactic of intimidation -- publicly railing against someone's grave crimes and then publishing their home address -- has been creeping out of the most extremist precincts on the Right and is becoming increasingly common among mainstream right-wing individuals and organizations.

This weekend, prominent neoconservative David Horowitz proclaimed that the United States is fighting a war and "the aggressors in this war are Democrats, liberals and leftists." In particular, he cited the now infamous NYT Travel section article on Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld's vacation homes as evidence that the employees of the NYT are among the enemies in this war, and he then linked to and recommended as a "proposal for action" this post from his associate, Front Page contributor Rocco DiPippo. The post which Horowitz recommended was entitled "Where Does Punch Sulzberger Live?" and this is what it said:

I issue a call to the blogosphere to begin finding and publicly listing the addresses of all New York Times reporters and editors. Posting pictures of their residences, along with details of any security measures in place to protect the properties and their owners (such as location of security cameras and on-site security details) should also be published.

DiPippo published the home address of NYT Publisher Arthur Sulzberger, along with directions to his home, and linked to a post by right-wing blogger Dan Riehl which contained directions to Sulzberger's home along with photographers of it. In a now-deleted post, DiPippo also published the home address of Linda Spillers, the NYT photographer who took the photograph of Don Rumsfeld's vacation home (with Rumsfeld's express permission), and he urged everyone to go (presumably to the home address he provided) and confront Spillers about her actions.

That was not an isolated incident. This week, Bartholomew's Official Notes on Religion reported on the new "project" implemented by the group StopTheACLU.org. As that group describes it, the project is called "Expose the ACLU Plaintiffs," and promises to publish the home addresses of all individuals who are "using the ACLU" in any First Amendment lawsuit based on the Establishment clause which challenges the constitutionality of governmental promotion of Christianity. The first such enemy targeted for this treatment is a Jewish family in Delaware who sued their local school district over its alleged promotion of Christianity in the public schools. StopTheACLU published their home address and telephone number on its website, and the family -- due to all sorts of recriminations and fear of escalating attacks -- was forced to leave their home and move to another town, which was one of the apparent goals of StopTheACLU in publishing their home address.

Stop the ACLU is not some fringe, isolated group. To the contrary, the "official blog" of StopTheACLU.org is StopTheACLU.com (h/t Hunter), a very prominent player in the right-wing blogosphere. That blog is the 14th most-linked-to blog on the Internet, and is often promoted and approvingly cited to as a source by numerous right-wing bloggers such as Instapundit and Michelle Malkin. The blog Expose the Left (which aspires to be the C&L of the Right), yesterday condemned the "nutcases on the left side of the blososphere" who "are sending unfounded attacks" against StopTheACLU for this plainly despicable thug behavior.

These self-evidently dangerous tactics are merely a natural outgrowth of the hate-mongering bullying sessions which have become the staple of right-wing television shows such as Bill O'Reilly's and websites such as Michelle Malkin's (who, unsurprisingly, has become one of O'Reilly's favorite guests). One of the most constant features of these hate fests is the singling out of some unprotected, private individual -- a public school teacher here, a university administrator there -- who is dragged before hundreds of thousands of readers (or millions of viewers), accused of committing some grave cultural crime or identified as a subversive and an enemy, and then held out as the daily target of unbridled contempt, a symbol of all that is Evil.

Malkin frequently includes contact information for the identified Enemies, and O'Reilly often shows photographs or video of them on multiple programs. These bullying tactics of intimidation -- whereby people who are often just private individuals and who have no defenses (as opposed to, say, prominent politicians or media figures) are singled out for widespread public rituals of contempt -- have quite foreseeable consequences, chief among them placing those targets in fear of retribution. Publishing the home addresses of such individuals is not some wholly different approach, but is merely the next small and foreseeable step, an obvious outgrowth of the hate sessions on which many leading representatives of the Right now heavily rely.

And it is not only those who engage in the tactics themselves who bear responsibility for the consequences, but also those who offer coldly bureaucratic indifference towards these tactics, or even an implicit defense of them. While numerous right-wing bloggers commented this weekend on the truly inane attacks against the NYT Travel article, none (at least that I read) condemned Horowitz for promoting the campaign to publish the home addresses of editors and reporters of the Times. They had much to say about the Evil that is the NYT, but nothing to say about this extraordinary and despicable campaign perfected by extremist groups on the Right and now promoted by Horowitz and groups such as StopTheACLU, to intimidate and endanger journalists and private individuals by collecting and publishing their home addresses.

Beyond merely failing to condemn these tactics, Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds yesterday deliberately defended them by arguing that they are no different than what the NYT did in its Travel article. Reynolds attacked a post written this weekend by Reason's Dave Weigel, in which Weigel condemned publication of the home address of the NYT photographer. Reynolds -- who pointedly avoided condemning Horowitz and publication of Spiller's home address -- quoted and then attacked Weigel's condemnation as "incoherent":

As so often happens with these things, angry bloggers have struck back and posted the addresses and phone numbers of the Times' photogs. (No link.)

No link? Why not? By Weigel's standards, a link wouldn't contribute to invasion of privacy. Anybody can find that stuff, right?

And if anybody can find that stuff, why's he so upset about publishing office phone numbers of public officials?

In order to avoid criticizing his comrades on the Right who are engaging in thug tactics, Reynolds actually equates discussion of the vacation homes of top government officials (who enjoy the most extensive and high-level security on the planet) with publication of the home addresses of private individuals and journalists (who have no security of any kind). By his reasoning, mentioning that the Vice President has a vacation home on the Eastern Shore of Maryland is no different than publishing the home address of private individuals who are publicly identified as traitors.

And, lo and behold, the Right's tactics of intimidation against private individuals are reduced by the conniving Reynolds into nothing more than a common and innocuous invasion of privacy of which the NYT and many others are also guilty. And with that corrupt equivalency established, Reynolds is able to posts on these matters without condemning the Right's thug tactics, and in fact, implicitly defends them by suggesting that they are rather innocuous and common and nothing to get excited about.

And revealingly, in choosing which villains to criticize from this weekend's treason accusations against the NYT and the thug tactics they inspired, Reynolds chooses Weigel for attack. But he has nothing to say about Horowitz and company for their newly announced campaign "to begin finding and publicly listing the addresses of all New York Times reporters and editors."

As people like Horowitz, Malkin and Reynolds well know -- and just as my most extremist former White Supremacist clients well knew -- if you throw burning matches at gasoline enough times, an explosion is inevitable. The rhetoric of treason -- accusing individuals and organizations of aiding and abetting our nation's enemies and even waging war on this country -- is a lit match. After all, the widely accepted penalty for traitors is execution, which is why it is such an inflammatory yet increasingly common accusation being hurled by the Right against their domestic "enemies" (for precisely the same reason, the favorite accusation of the World Church of the Creator was to label someone a "race traitor," since everyone knows what should be done with traitors).

Openly speculating about whether journalists and politicians are guilty of treason has become unbelievably common of late. And when those accusations are paired with publication of the traitor's home address, the intended result is both obvious and inevitable. Anyone who endorses those tactics in any way -- or who plays cute, coy games in finding ways to justify or minimize them -- knows exactly what they are doing.

As the Bush movement collapses, it is only to be expected that its more fevered adherents will resort to increasingly extremist rhetoric and tactics, out of frustration and anger, if for no other reason. The penetration of these thug tactics into increasingly mainstream venues on the Right is one of the more glaring, and more disturbing, developments of late.

UPDATE: In response to several comments here, let me be clear that I do not believe that the despicable statements referenced in this post can or should be grounds for criminal or civil liability. For reasons I set forth in comments here, here and here, the First Amendment should bar (and the Supreme Court has held it does bar) the imposition of liability based on the consequences flowing from the expression of protected political speech. The point is that these statements are despicable and dangerous, not illegal. The persons who engage in such tactics, or who defend them, bear the ethical and moral responsibilites -- but not legal liability -- for what they spawn.

309 comments:

  1. Anonymous9:30 AM

    It's going to backfire. It's going to backfire big-time.

    Not that this wasn't an excellent and wholly correct post. But white supremacist groups have hardly been able to bully and intimidate their way to the top of the American political order. There are means and tools for someone targeted in such a circumstance to undertake extensive retaliation, both legal and otherwise. Furthermore, the general public would never support such a tactic in action.

    Stop the ACLU may be the 14'th-most-linked right-wing blog, or whatever, but I personally think that only a small minority of the people visiting that sight would actively participate in harassment of people like the NYTimes photographer. Most blog readers are lurkers. So support for this is probably only strong within the fringe of the blog readers who are themeslves a small fringe sub-sectio n of society.

    Lastly, while I think that Instapundit is despicable, and absolutely disingenuous waste of breath, his argument is not entirely functionless. What's he saying is that there is no one really owns an ironclad right to the privacy of their public information. Publishing info to create fear and harass is despicable, but phone books exist even if you didn't. It's hard to specifically target the publishing of contact information of an individual.

    To incite others to perform malicious acts in conjunction with that contact info is where we can and should bring the hammer down.

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  2. Anonymous9:31 AM

    "Anyone who endorses those tactics in any way -- or who plays cute, coy games in finding ways to justify or minimize them -- knows exactly what they are doing."

    I certainly hope they know what they are doing. When groups like this start to believe their own lies, it is almost impossible to reason with them.

    Actually, since no reason or logic was used when they originally told the falsehood, I guess they'll never understand.

    This ideological jujitsu has been around for ages. The most fervent followers of the Soviet system did this. It's the institutionalization of a twisted ideology.

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  3. Anonymous9:35 AM

    Oh, I forgot my original point, re backfire -

    the first time some right-wing lunatic does something stupid as a result of this incitement, the unhinged blogs standing behind him will probably shrivel and die. Our political culture is certainly under some strain, but is still eminently capable of putting the fear and suffering of such a targeted victim on display, and turning instigators into pariahs. And that's not even getting into law enforcement.

    Of course, blogs like Unclaimed Territory - who knows - may help us avoid that point entirely - but I doubt it. I mean, Glenn, you don't really expect Michelle fucking Malkin to really stop what's she's doing - essentially, change who she is - just because you dissaprove, do you? She'll stop when she is placed under immiment threat of sever consequences. Not before.
    I mean, think about what it would take for *you* to stop *your* blog. Sure, your actions aren't disgusting, but people identify with their repetoires.

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  4. Anonymous9:36 AM

    The irony is that there may be some blowback and someone who is tired of the hating that comes from the wing-nuts may also take action. The foolish wingnuts think they're the only group of "Patriots defending America" and that there aren't crazies on the left-leaning wing-nuttery.

    My question is, however, isn't this illegal? Isn't this an incitment with a phoney disclaimer? I'm a reasonable person and I see these posts as an incitement to violence and possibly rising to the level of an assult (if I correctly understand the way the legal term is used).

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  5. My question is, however, isn't this illegal? Isn't this an incitment with a phoney disclaimer? I'm a reasonable person and I see these posts as an incitement to violence and possibly rising to the level of an assult.

    It's not illegal and shouldn't be. The First Amendment protects even express advocacy of violence and revolution. Holding someone legally responsible for the consequences of their opinions would be to destroy any meaningful conception of free speech.

    If you stand up and give a fiery, angry speech which condemns business tycoons are the force which is destroying society and the quality of life of working families, and someone hears your speech and goes out and kills a CEO, it may be tempting to hold you legally responsible for inciting that violence but doing so clearly be incompatible with guarantees of free expression. The same is true for those who condemn abortion, or homosexuality, or the New York Times. It is those who commit the violence who ought to be held legally responsible, not those whose opinions inspired it.

    Those who engage in this rhetoric are responsible for the consequences, just not legally responsible. This behavior is despicable, to be sure, but not illegal.

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  6. My God Glenn, isn't there somthing the targets of this campaign can do? Isn't inciting violence, even if only implicit, against the law? Can they not file charges, or are they afraid to do even that, lest the howling mob become even more enraged?

    I cannot imagine living under that kind of pressue- I would have to do something, particularly as I have young children in my family.

    It is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. Just ask the families of several slain abortion doctors if these people should be taken seriously.

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  7. Sorry Glenn, I did not see your above response.

    Yet, does not the concept of yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre hold some relevance here?

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  8. Anonymous10:04 AM

    well, it looks to me that reynolds and horowitz are betraying the constitution. isn't that a form of treason? by their logic, their addresses should be prominently displayed, too.

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  9. Anonymous10:08 AM

    To Glenn -

    I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and wonder how easy it would be to find Malkin or Coulter or O'Reilly's home adresses, and that of their agents as well. How would they respond to that information being made public in the same way as they are wont?

    Let me be absolutely clear: I am NOT advocating any such research or harrassment (and I personally consider it such even if it doesn't meet the statutory definitions) of these people. However reprehensible their actions or ideas, they have the right to their privacy.

    I say let those same actions and ideas leave them stained. There's no call for the rest of us to feed the myth of their 'persecution'.

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  10. Edit:

    "The first such enemies targeted for this treatment is a Jewish family..."

    s/b:

    "The first such enemy targeted for this treatment was a Jewish family..."


    Given the implied semantic of the context around that statement, you may want to rethink your wording.

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  11. Anonymous10:12 AM

    Not that this wasn't an excellent and wholly correct post.

    Picky, picky, picky.

    It's an excellent post.

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  12. Anonymous10:13 AM

    If I had any respect left for Glenn Reynolds, it's gone now.

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  13. Anonymous10:21 AM

    I'm still reading...


    The first such enemies targeted for this treatment is a Jewish family in Delaware who sued their local school district over its alleged promotion of Christianity in the public schools.

    Subject / verb agreement, Glenn?

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  14. Anonymous10:23 AM

    If the point is to "make them stop", then this sort of thing is not going to work. The more their despicableness is discussed, the more they thrive, the more they are emboldened, the more they squirm with delight.

    Attention is what they crave more than anything, even more than the power they seek to wield.

    Fighting the fuck back might work, if fighters are willing to get down and dirty, and at one time there were people on our side who could and would do that, but they seem to have vanished, or maybe they've gone over to the other side, I don't know.

    But these days, delicacy rules what passes for the left, and that delicacy, that refusal to bloody up, has cost us and the nation and the world plenty.

    Anytime the right wing bloviators are confronted head on, by someone who will not take shit from them, they crumble into dust. They do because they are bullies and cowards.

    "Tell the truth and shame the devil," is a pretty good motto, but it means more than confronting them with the truth. It means adhering to the truth, and not falling into their traps. Keep the reins in your hands, never give an inch.

    Unfortunately, too often our side winds up playing their game by their rules.

    Stop it.

    "Tell the truth and shame the devil."

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  15. Anonymous10:28 AM

    And with that corrupt equivalency established, Reynolds is able to postson these matters without condemning the Right's thug tactics, and in fact, implicitly defends them by suggesting that they are rather innocuous and common and nothing to get excited about.


    I'm done

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  16. Can you provide some basic references, Glenn?

    The seminal Supreme Court case on the First Amendment issues involved is Claiborne v. the NAACP - one of my favorite Supreme Court cases ever. The Mississippi Supreme Court had imposed civil liability on local NAACP leaders for violence in the 1960s that ensued against black individuals who violated an NAACP-imposed boycott against white-owned stores, as well as for damage sustained by the stores themselves. Various NAACP leaders had strongly suggested that attacks on anyone breaking the boycott would be justifiable (as the Court recounted, one leader, Charles Evers, "stated that boycott violators would be 'disciplined' by their own people and warned that the Sheriff could not sleep with boycott violators at night." He also said: "If we catch any of you going in any of them racist stores, we're gonna break your damn neck.")

    The Miss. Supreme Court held that such speeches were grounds for holding them liable for the subsequent violence.

    The U.S. Superme Court unanimously reversed, holding that the First Amendment bars the imposition of liability for the consequences of protected speech. The Court recounts the very narrow exceptions when speech can give rise to liability (the "fire in the crowded theater" categories) and makes clear why it applies only in the rarest cases.

    In my view, the focus should not be on criminal or other legal liability as a result of someone's opinions but on the ethical and moral responsibilities one has.

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  17. Anonymous10:39 AM

    Glenn... In my view, the focus should not be on criminal or other legal liability as a result of someone's opinions but on the ethical and moral responsibilities one has.

    But it seems increasingly clear that we are dealing with people who are argue that it is their "ethical and moral responsibility" to engage in these practices. With STACLU, you are dealing with overt dominionists. They have planly stated there is no sin in any act done to bring about theocracy in America.

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  18. Anonymous10:41 AM

    Stop the ACLU may be the 14'th-most-linked right-wing blog, or whatever, but I personally think that only a small minority of the people visiting that sight would actively participate in harassment of people like the NYTimes photographer.

    Small minority of that is acceptable?
    check out todays dailydoubt.blogspot.com

    The more Glenn and others keep pointing out the thuggery, the better the chance that someone like Chris Matthews is going to catch on and get it on TV. I bet Olbermann's already on the case. (don't have cable anymore)

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  19. Anonymous10:43 AM

    i'm sorry, i just don't understand how publishing the address of someone, and then inciting violence against that person can possibly be legal. wasn't something similar what sent the mobs into the streets in ruwanda? the result was genocide. if nothing else, wouldn't there be civil liabilities? couldn't you sue for damages? sorry, i'm just a graphic designer, not a lawyer, and i just don't get it.

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  20. Glenn, fascinating post and wonderful comments. And thanks for the detailed legal analysis. But isn't there a difference between protected speech "We must kill all the landowners!" and something that might be legally actionable "we must kill all the landowners at 135 Maple drive?"

    I'd also like to point out that the issue of legal recourse by private citizens is precisely what these hate filled right wing blogs are avoiding--they are promoting a kind of "self help" version of the legal and political system in which every individual right winger must feel him or herself agrieved by a perceived threat to an authority figure (rumsfeld/cheney et al) ad every aggrieved individual has the moral and political right to avenge the slight.

    On the liberal side, we'd say if rumsfeld/cheney thought themselves endangered or aggrieved they should *take it to court* and see what their rights are vis a vis the newspapers. And I'd also say that the threatened journalists should be able to take it to court and see if there are any legal remedies to the violation of their privacy and the threats against them by known bloggers and unknown posters.

    But again, that is the difference between liberals and conservatives these days. Conservatives are acting like there has been a total breakdown in legal and political authority in this country, as though we are living in a failed state where each individual must rally around a war lord and pledge their fealty in blood and bloody acts simply in order to survive. This is the end result of the bush's "an army of one" and "personal responsibility" and "privatization"--the conservative individual is over and over again given a false sense of importance (only *I* can save this president!) and a false job description (*only we can fight the war on terror from our couches!*) and, at the same time, an overwhelming sense of fear and the fragility of all social bonds (the whole country are traitors except me! an endless war on terror against the islamofascists excuses every excess!).

    aimai

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  21. Anonymous10:49 AM

    To quote from the story Glenn links to about the extremist pro-life site, my emphasis:

    A unanimous three-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals said that the so-called Nuremberg Files, which listed names and home addresses of doctors, did not violate the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of expression.... In a ringing defense of the First Amendment, Judge Alex Kozinski wrote that "political speech may not be punished just because it makes it more likely that someone will be harmed at some unknown time in the future by an unrelated third party."

    Sure, most reasonable people understand that those who maintain that site relish every assassinated abortionist. Just as every white supremacist revels in the murders of anybody killed whom they have published as a "race traitor" on their web sites. But there is no way to criminalize such speech without also capturing, say, PETA when it publishes names and addresses of the labs and biologists who run them who experiment on animals, and shrilly declares that all these men and women are tortures and murderers. Or far-leftists who (hypothetically) publish the names, addresses and fone mumers of majority shareholders in a defense-contracting company and accuse them of crimes against humanity.

    It's a cliché, yet nevertheless so true, that free speech isn't free. What ought to be done is that the aroused, decent citizenry should shun, ostracize and place outside of civilized company those who resort to such tactics.

    In that spirit, I would suggest a campaign pressing all those right-wingers who have StoptheACLU on their blogrolls to either de-link, or to justify themselves.

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  22. Do anti-stalking laws cover an instance where someone publishes a "traitor's" address and then starts hanging out at the person's house, visiting their children's school, following their car, etc.?

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  23. Anonymous10:54 AM

    Stop it.

    "Tell the truth and shame the devil."


    Adlai Stevenson thought of that a few years back when he suggested a deal with Republicans. If they would stop lying about Democrats, Democrats would stop telling the truth about Republicans. And here we are.


    Fighting the fuck back might work, if fighters are willing to get down and dirty, and at one time there were people on our side who could and would do that, but they seem to have vanished, or maybe they've gone over to the other side, I don't know.

    But these days, delicacy rules what passes for the left, and that delicacy, that refusal to bloody up, has cost us and the nation and the world plenty.


    Yes. Fighting back is a matter of survival, but they see it the same way. I think you can draw parallels between the abolitionists and modern day anti-abortionists. They often do it themselves. Some scholars, this one is even a professor of peace studies, observe that Thoreau did not rule out violence in all cases. The right has gotten lots of mileage out of playing the sheep to act the wolf.

    The Theory, Practice & Influence of Thoreau's Civil Disobedience

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  24. I always thought you were writing about this issue in an attempt to "out" them for who they really are but I am now wondering if you are writing these posts because you are genuinely shocked at how fundamentally flawed they are.

    I guess I'm just not as worldly and sophisticated as you are and, yeah, it does actually shock me to see tactics like this used so openly by people who continue to be treated as respectable figures. But being surprised and "outing" them are hardly mutually exclusive.

    As I see it, there are two options: (1) publicize how corrupt and malicious they are so that others see it and they become discredited, or (2) ignore them. For reasons I've expounded on at length, I believe option (2) is the worst possible course of action, which leaves only option (1).

    And yet every time I write a post like this, some people come and say how useless and misguided it is to highlight their corruption because it's so known, it doesn't matter, etc. etc., but such people virtually never say what they believe the proper course of action is with regard to these forces.

    If highlighting their true beliefs and the reason they are so corrupt is so miguided, worthless, naive, etc. etc., what do you recommend instead?

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  25. Anonymous10:58 AM

    Glenn,
    You wrote:
    "As people like Horowitz, Malkin and Reynolds well know -- and just as my most extremist former White Supremacist clients well knew -- if you throw burning matches at gasoline enough times, an explosion is inevitable."
    Do you think their postings are a form of protected free speech? It seems to me that they are protected, since isn't the relevant test not Holmes'would the words create a "clear and present danger that they will bring about ... substantive evils" but rather the test from Brandenburg v. Ohio, which ruled that speech could only be banned when it was directed to and LIKELY TO incite imminent lawless action? Do you know if any of the targeted private individuals you mentioned have ever attempted to press charges or bring suit? If they did, would you represent them, assuming you were still practicing?

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  26. Glenn,

    Perhaps the Canadian perspective would be useful here. We do limit hate-speech, and incitiations to violence. I realize many Americans fear such limits would be a slippery slope away from free speech, but so far we've managed not to slide any further than the types of things that are reprehensible and lead to measurable harm.

    In fact, we are freer in other ways, such as the far less stringent censorship requirements for our television and radio (swearing is not uncommon, and after 9pm even R rated movies don't need any censorship that I'm aware of).

    At least one other modern democracy limits hate and violence speech, and that's Germany - and to those that say "well, that's because of the Nazis..." are begging the question: What makes you think that couldn't happen in your country? The German laws should be an example to all of us, as from one who has seen the worst consequences of limitless speech as abused by the malicious.

    To "fire in a crowded theatre" I think the limit of "don't yell 'burn the witch' in front of an angry mob"

    It also could take the guise of not publishing home addresses or information that would lead to the home address of anyone without their permission. I see no danger in that, after all, is it ever legitimate to publish someone's home address without their say-so? Ostensibly you agree to be in the phone book as you can "opt-out" of it.

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  27. Anonymous11:00 AM

    Upthread, another nonny posted about this at Hume's Ghost. Denice Denton Committed suicide on June 24th. She was the Chancellor at UC Santa Cruz targeted by Malkin and others in April over the recruitment on campus issue. Now it's not just fun and games anymore.

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  28. Anonymous11:03 AM

    Glenn... If highlighting their true beliefs and the reason they are so corrupt is so miguided, worthless, naive, etc. etc., what do you recommend instead?

    I suggest you ignore the people telling you to ignore the Malkins and keep on doing what you are doing. It's going to have a beneficial effect on the level of discourse in this country, and thank you for doing it.

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  29. Do you think their postings are a form of protected free speech?

    Yes, it's clearly protected speech, for the reasons I stated above. Not all despicable things are illegal, and not all legal things are virtuous.

    Perhaps the Canadian perspective would be useful here. We do limit hate-speech, and incitiations to violence.

    Personally, I'm very glad that we don't live in a country like Canada where the majority empowers the government to criminalize the expression of certain political viewpoints which are unpopular. I don't trust Candaians or majorities anywhere to decide which viewpoints are so offensive or "dangerous" that their expression ought to be criminalized.

    For the moment, a majority of Canadians think that it's "hate speech" to condemn homosexuality, but that could be easily reversed so that a majority thinks it's "hate speech" to condemn Christianity. The only acceptable system is one where no opinions are outlawed.

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  30. Anonymous11:13 AM

    Hypatia... It's a cliché, yet nevertheless so true, that free speech isn't free. What ought to be done is that the aroused, decent citizenry should shun, ostracize and place outside of civilized company those who resort to such tactics.

    In that spirit, I would suggest a campaign pressing all those right-wingers who have StoptheACLU on their blogrolls to either de-link, or to justify themselves.


    I agree with this as a first step. I am also curious to know what Hypatia thinks about what the Canadian commenter had to say. I doubt it's going to be well received by her, but I want to hear her response.

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  31. It is at least hypocritical, and at most incitement, that Malkin et al are accusing the NYT of outing the whereabouts of admin. officials because the paper wishes terrorists to assasinate them. At the same time, they out the addresses and phone #'s of reporters and photogs for the purposes of- what? So their supporters can send them flowers?

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  32. Anonymous11:18 AM

    > I'm going to play Devil's Advocate
    > here and wonder how easy it would be
    > to find Malkin or Coulter or
    > O'Reilly's home adresses, and that
    > of their agents as well. How would
    > they respond to that information
    > being made public in the same way as
    > they are wont?

    Well, the Crytome guy ( http://www.cryptome.org ) does exactly that: whenever a person figures prominently in the news, he does an "eyeballing" series and provides a lot of publicly-available information. I believe his theory is that available information should be evened up between the rulers and the ruled.

    But here is the catch: he is just as likely to post an eyeball of one party to a dispute as another. A TV news anchor or Joe Average. Again I think the theory is that the information is available to some inside parties and it would be better that it be avilable to all citizens.

    Is that right or wrong? That for me is a very tough question. I was disgusted at Eric Schmidt's speech ~3 years ago where he said we should "get over" our loss of data privacy, but I sadly suspect he may have been right. If so, is it better to publish everything, or try to keep some things semi-secret? Knowing that those in power can get it whenever they want...

    Cranky

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  33. Anonymous11:22 AM

    Glenn:

    This is a fascinating take by a self proclaimed 1st Amendment attorney.

    The tactic of making public the identity and homes of persons who are performing acts to which you oppose is an old one and hardly originated with the political right.

    The NAACP published the names of people who violated their boycott of white owned stores and condemned their actions back in 1966 and the Supreme Court unanimously upheld this publication as protected by the First Amendment.

    Homosexual groups have been outing the sexual orientation of prominent gays for decades and condemning their hypocrisy for "staying in the closet."

    The purpose of such outings was to shame the persons being identified and to place them under social pressure by their neighbors.

    This speech only loses First Amendment protection if the speaker makes a threat with specific intent to commit violence.

    I fail to see how publishing the home addresses and telephone numbers of NYT editors and reporters without any threats whatsoever does not enjoy the full protection of the First Amendment.

    Condemning the criminal acts of the NYT in disclosing war secrets to the enemy is in no way making a threat with specific intent to commit violence as you should well know.

    As a First Amendment absolutist who represents fascists and believes, without any legal authority, that this amendment gives the NYT the "right" to disclose top secret intelligence gathering programs to the enemy, exactly where do you get off condemning bloggers for exercising their long established right to publish the addresses and telephone numbers of those NYT editors and reporters?

    Are all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others???

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  34. Anonymous11:23 AM

    (for precisely the same reason, the favorite accusation of the World Church of the Creator was to label someone a "race traitor," since everyone knows what should be done with traitors).

    The other day, undistinguished law professor, Glenn Reynolds, managed to beyond his usual insightful “hey” to imply that the New York Times is, simply “on the other side” which is a clever way to call them “traitors” and encourage his readers to think of them as “the enemy within.”:

    HOW CAN WE TRUST THEIR JUDGMENT ON WHAT TO PUBLISH, when they can't even figure out what side we're on?

    Taken to its logical conclusion, it is suggesting that the Times, by their actions, has lost the right to decide what to publish. Now, of course, he doesn’t come right out and say this, but if the press doesn’t decide what to publish, the government does.

    He leaves others to call for padlocks on the doors of the New York Times and calls for an “office of censorship” but he sets up framework wherein these actions must be discussed.

    The war on the press is just a part of the larger “culture war” and the New York Times is “code” to the base, just as “San Francisco” has become code for them.

    The “culture war” is being ramped up to “nuclear” proportions because the Republicans fear losing power, and they’re willing to do anything it takes to hang on to it.

    And they are escalating this war, and will continue to do so, regardless of the consequences. If liberals get killed here and there, and a newspaper’s offices are bombed, well they’ll denounce it, without admitting this is the consequence of the “culture war” they initiated.

    But of course, they won’t back down, and no it won’t backfire – at least with the base – and the worst of the Malkins and Limbaughs will actually blame liberals themselves for their deaths.

    If they didn’t hate America, this never would have happen. The other day, Limbaugh called 80% of New York Times subscribers “jihadists” – oh, yes, the culture war could become “untidy.”

    Yes, the dittoheads and the Malkinites are surely a minority of the population, but as Billmon observed:


    But the historical truth is that civil wars aren't made by vast majorities, but by enraged and fearful minorities. Looking at America's traditionalists and the modernists today, I see plenty of rage and fear, most, though hardly all, of it eminating from the authoritarian right. For now, these primal passions are still being contained within the boundaries of the conventional political process. But that process -- essentially a system for brokering the demands of competing interest groups -- isn't designed to handle the stresses of a full-blown culture war.

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  35. Personally, I'm very glad that we don't live in a country like Canada where the majority empowers the government to criminalize the expression of certain political viewpoints which are unpopular. I don't trust Candaians or majorities anywhere to decide which viewpoints are so offensive or "dangerous" that their expression ought to be criminalized

    I concur in not trusting majorities, but here you forget we too have a constitution and a supreme court able to overturn laws which violate that constitution.

    Essentially, we have the same as you in that regard since if 5 justices decide a US limit on hate-speech is constitutional, it effectively is, even if that contradicts a plain reading of the 1st amendment. A plain reading does not include the "fire/theatre" limit anyway, so this has already happened. What's the difference then?

    So far we've managed not to make unpopular things like critisizing Israel, Christianity, Canadian Troops, socialized health care or maple syrup "hate speech" and we also didn't come anywhere near a constititional ban on burning our flag.

    "Freedoms to" are often balanced against "freedoms from" meaning though I am not free to incite violence against others publicly, but then I am free from such exhortations against me. A freedom I'm sure that family in Delaware would enjoy right now.

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  36. Anonymous11:24 AM

    I agree with this as a first step. I am also curious to know what Hypatia thinks about what the Canadian commenter had to say. I doubt it's going to be well received by her, but I want to hear her response.

    I completely agree with every word Glenn has posted on this subject, most especially his comment at 11:12 a.m. discussing the Canadian speech laws.

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  37. This speech only loses First Amendment protection if the speaker makes a threat with specific intent to commit violence.

    This is why I ignore you, Bart. You're an egomaniac who is so self-absorbed that you're literally incapable of understanding what anyone else says.

    I did not say that the speech I am criticizing is not constitutionally protected. That had nothing to do with my post. I criticized the substance of the speech. I did not argue that it was criminal or beyond the reach of the First Amendment.

    To the extent that I commented on constitutional issues at all, it was in the Comments section, where I repeatedly made clear that I believe that the First Amendment does protect such statements, and I even cited and linked to the Claiborne case to which you sloppily referred in order to demonstrate why such speech, despicable though it may be, is constitutionally immunized from liability.

    But then you come and act as though I argued the opposite - that this speech is beyond the confines of the First Amendment. And you then argue that the First Amendment protects such speech as though you are disputing a point I made, and then even accuse me of hypocrisy for believing that only speech I like is entitled to protection -- when, in fact, I very clearly stated that although I find this speech disgusting, it cannot give rise to liability of any kind.

    In other words, you came and attributed to me a view that had nothing to do with the post I wrote, and which I expressly and repeatedly repudiated in the Comments section. Surely even you can see what a complete waste of time your posts here are?

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  38. Anonymous11:30 AM

    Great post.

    Here's another twist. I wonder whether the right-wing threat mongers are not to an extent trading on the public's perception of reduced personal privacy in this age of cybersurveillance, to advance the concept that *everyone* is a "public figure" now -- and "equivalent" -- and thus "fair game" for attack.

    Is there a (highly distorted and misapplied, by extremists) kernel of truth in this? Has the concept of "public figure," as it appears in cases like New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 and Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323, now become obsolete in an era where everyone's personal data is available for a few keystrokes and/or a credit card payment, as AmericaBlog has shown?

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  39. Anonymous11:31 AM

    Hypatia,

    When I saw Glenn's response RE: Canadian hate speech, I knew you would have no need to respond, but thanks for responding anyway. I have to agree with both of you, but I understand the seduction of such laws for some. What about more robust privacy laws with more teeth? Is there some kind of hybrid strategy along the lines of a SLAPP suit that might be crafted that individuals with limited resources might be able to pursue?

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  40. Anonymous11:31 AM

    Does the First Amendment foreclose tort liability as well?

    That depends. On the tort alleged, and what was actually published.

    As a rule, the U.S. has not permitted civil suits to swallow free speech. For example, no action for "group libel" will lie in our courts. Blasphemy, civil or criminal, either.

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  41. Does the First Amendment foreclose tort liability as well?

    Yes - that's what the Claiborne case was about. Free expression would be just as easily destroyed if the Government could bankrupt you for your opinions as it would be if the GOvernment could imprison you for them.

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  42. Anonymous11:38 AM

    Glenn Greenwald said...
    Does the First Amendment foreclose tort liability as well?

    Yes - that's what the Claiborne case was about. Free expression would be just as easily destroyed if the Government could bankrupt you for your opinions as it would be if the GOvernment could imprison you for them.


    Corporations have been doing it for years, via SLAPP suits, no?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous11:42 AM

    Well, at least Horowitz has plainly stated what, to date, has only been insinuated.

    Expect more of this as the Right grows ever more aware of their impending minority status.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous11:43 AM

    The Liberal Avenger said...
    I saw a passionate (and very snippy) defense from someone named "Kender" on StoptheACLU.com where he insists that technically no laws were broken by publishing the family's personal info.

    This is conservative morality in a nutshell: the conservative definition of morality is always a work in progress, modifed to justify empowering them in any situation. If pesky laws get in the way, attack the laws, attack the lawyers, attack the prosecutors or attack those "activist judges" who are "legislating from the bench."


    The best defense is a good offense. I know ka-bar will agree, but it's not something one entertains lightly. Clearly, we are under attack, by people who claim they are the ones under attack. Now I have a headache.

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  45. Absolutely, njorl. Can you imagine if reporters were to actually point out cases of incitement by blogs if a reporter gets killed? They won't risk it.

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  46. bart: The purpose of such outings was to shame the persons being identified and to place them under social pressure by their neighbors.

    Exactly. The problem is, shame is not a rational emotion nor is it appropriate in a debate concerning principles. The root of shame is an attempt to ostracize and put outside the bounds of human discourse those you shame. The goal of democratic processes, however, is inclusion and an attempt to incorporate diverse and different viewpoints and voices.

    But if a person is shamed and placed outside the bounds of humanity in the first place, appeals to reason and best argument fall by the wayside since that person is not even considered worthy of rational or reasonable concern.

    The use of shame by the pundits/groups you defend is therefore not an attempt to engage in democratic debate but an attempt to stigmatize and destroy.

    It is my guess that the attempt to stigmatize others with different views emanates from resentment and feelings of stigmatization on the part of the very pundits/groups you defend. They feel that their views have been scorned and ridiculed for a long time--mostly in the form of what they call "political correctness"--and therefore their own attempts at stigmatizing others is just a form of payback.

    It would appear that the pre-requisite for any democratic polity is the notion that rational debate will elicit in the long run the most democratic solution. Through the process of rational debate all sides are heard and given equal weight. Rational analysis sorts out the wheat from the chaff, the fallacious from the authentic.

    The use of shame appeals to some supposed ethical core that falls outside reason but is more true than reasoned debate. In many cases on the Right these days, this more authentically true argument is the jack boot and death threats. The Right would replace an appeal to reason with an appeal to authority.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous11:46 AM

    If Reynolds, Malkin, etc. don't think that posting personal info (like addresses) online is dangerous, I wonder if they'd be convinced otherwise by someone on the left finding *their* addresses, and posting *that* info on a few right-wing sites - but with a note that accuses stereotypical liberal bad guys (e.g., NYT staff, Dan Rather, etc.) of living there.

    Of course, you'd think Malkin, after having posted personal info online for the UCSC students, spawning harassment including death threats, and then claiming to have been harassed so much she had to move (I'd follow Reagan's advice, "trust but verify", before crediting her *or* that story), would have learned a lesson about this stuff, but that seems to be a hallmark of these reactionary morons, that they don't know, or learn, about what it's like to be anyone else but themselves, in their own glass houses.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous11:48 AM

    Hypatia:

    In that spirit, I would suggest a campaign pressing all those right-wingers who have StoptheACLU on their blogrolls to either de-link, or to justify themselves.

    This is the exact reason why I asked you whether or not that web site was directly connected to the porject. I have one specific right-wing blog on which I regularly comment in mind for this very purpose.

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  49. Anonymous11:49 AM

    In other words, you came and attributed to me a view that had nothing to do with the post I wrote, and which I expressly and repeatedly repudiated in the Comments section.

    HWSNBN misses the fundamental point while misrepresenting another's basic argument? Quelle surprise!

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous11:51 AM

    Glenn @ 11:30 Zing!

    Bart @ 11:31 pwn3d!

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous11:52 AM

    Glenn,

    All Bart wants to know is whether or not you have stopped beating your wife, and, if you're unmarried, when you made the decision to be gay.

    Bart has an opinion, and all opinions are equally valid. He also wants to know why you hate America.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous11:58 AM

    Atrios just linked to this story in the Boston Globe about death threats against journalists... against.... wait for it.... Zengerle! Damn liberal media bias!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous12:01 PM

    Glenn said,
    It is those who commit the violence who ought to be held legally responsible, not those whose opinions inspired it.

    Sure I guess, except there is a huge difference between merely tolerating on principle a Julius Streicher and actively promoting, rewarding and thereby validating a Julius Streicher. Those that actively promote or reward and therefore validate the Julius-Streichers-of-the-day know this all too well, making your average Malkin/Hinderaker/Horowitz what-have-you nothing much more than a tool.

    While I'm pretty sure that people (and not tools called "guns") do indeed kill people, there are legal limits on the firepower a civilian can bring to bear primarily to mitigate the ease and scale of killing. If there can be limits on the firepower of some "tools", why can't there be the same kind of limits on others?

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous12:05 PM

    Orcinus (David Niewert) has been watching this develop for some time. Looks like he was right.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous12:09 PM

    It seems to me that while the speach would be protected if I was a victim of this kind of speach I should have some recourse and that the speaker should have some measure of liability if only after a crime has been committed.

    If I am speaking in the public square and incite a lynchmob into acting do I not have some liability even if I don't put the rope around the victims neck?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous12:10 PM

    I see Bart's indignant once again. Whoop de dooo! The right is always right, the left always wrong....Same old script, rationalizations, and whining tone. Don't worry Bart, your tax cuts are safe.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous12:11 PM

    Some questions for Glenn, if he is still reading this comment section, or anyone else who wants to answer.

    I notice neither the post or the comments discusses the legal aspect of intent. If the INTENT is to cause violence against an individual, isn't this next door to conspiracy to commit crime?

    Can current laws against stalking be applied?

    Since there is an establishment of protected versus non-protected speech, can you see a clear and legal test that can be applied to these cases that could be used as the basis of new legislation that would make this type of speech unprotected? If so do you think that should be the route we should take?

    Great topic and many interesting posts here.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous12:17 PM

    Glenn Greenwald said...

    Bart: This speech only loses First Amendment protection if the speaker makes a threat with specific intent to commit violence.

    I did not say that the speech I am criticizing is not constitutionally protected. I criticized the substance of the speech. I did not argue that it was criminal or beyond the reach of the First Amendment.


    Read my post again carefully. I never stated that you asserted that this speech was not protected by the First Amendment.

    Your argument is nearly a carbon copy of the arguments made by the feminists attempting to shut down the Nuremburg Files website that publishing the names and addresses of abortionists on virtual wanted posters was outside of the First Amendment.

    The only point of the feminists argument which was not expressly made in yours was the conclusion that the speech you were railing against was outside of the First Amendment.

    The purpose of my post was to smoke you out and make you justify what I consider to be an outrageous argument against free speech.

    I am glad to hear that you atleast acknowledge that such speech is protected by the First Amendment.

    I am curious, if those parties who are posting the addresses of the NYT editors and reporters were sued and came to you for legal assistance, would you represent them as a first amendment attorney?

    This is why I ignore you, Bart. You're an egomaniac who is so self-absorbed that you're literally incapable of understanding what anyone else says.

    No, you ignore my challenges to support your arguments with actual law because you can not do so and do not want to be embarrassed on your own blog.

    Here are a handful of examples...

    Your book railing against the "law breaking" of the Bush Administration is long on polemic and very short on actual law.

    You claim that Congress has the power to limit or eliminate the President's recognized Article II power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering, but ignore my repeated challenges to produce the provision(s) of Article I and the interpreting case law which supports that assertion.

    You claim or at least strongly imply that the NYT has a First Amendment right to publish classified intelligence gathering programs without fear of subsequent prosecution, but ignore my repeated challenges to produce the interpreting case law which supports that assertion.

    You claim or at least strongly imply that the NYT has a greater First Amendment right to publish classified intelligence gathering programs which your or I or the leakers do not share, but ignore my repeated challenges to produce the interpreting case law which supports that assertion.

    Any fool can make allegations, but a lawyer should be willing to back his up his legal allegations with actual law.

    I don't expect you to respond to any of my challenges above, though. That deafening silence is all the answer I need to confirm my rebuttals to your arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous12:23 PM

    Wow, bart sure has a long law-dick! I'm so impressed.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Anybody remember the anti-abortion website "The Nuremberg Files"?

    They provided information on doctors' residences, and then crossed them off as they were assassinated. This is nothing new from the right.
    .

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  61. Anonymous12:25 PM

    So you're saying that you bear some "ethical and moral" responsibility for the murder of Judge Lefkow's husband and mother?

    Glenn had no legal relationship of any kind to the losing plaintiff in that med mal case, who killed members of Lefkow's family.

    But even if he had been representing that man, he would bear no ethical or moral responsibility for his client's decision, unkown to him, to commit murder.

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  62. Anonymous12:27 PM

    You claim that Congress has the power to limit or eliminate the President's recognized Article II power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering ...

    Uh, actually they do have their own intelligence gathering organs. If you'd stop playing with abstractions and deal with the real world, you'd spend less time wasting photons.
    .

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  63. Murder of New York abortion doctor denounced as 'terrorism'


    shooter is clearly reality-impared. If he doesn't remember it then it couldn't have happened.

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  64. Anonymous12:29 PM

    No, you ignore my challenges to support your arguments with actual law because you can not do so and do not want to be embarrassed on your own blog.

    Another swing and a miss by HWSNBN!

    From his first post and throughout this discussion, Glenn has been making a moral/ethical argument against the thugs, not a statutory/legal argument.

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  65. Anonymous12:30 PM

    Personally, I'm very glad that we don't live in a country like Canada where the majority empowers the government to criminalize the expression of certain political viewpoints which are unpopular.

    Personally, I'm very glad you don't either. Your free-speech absolutism has been a constant horror for Canadians for decades as we watch your society descend into absolute barbarity, of the type you seem to be railing about here.

    I'm sure it makes a great career for you, and gives you plenty to write about, but that's cold comfort for all the victims of public humiliation, shame, violence and murder that hateful incitement inevitably leads to.

    As a commenter pointed out earlier, what makes you think Nazi Germany couldn't be re-incarnated in the USA? As far as I'm concerned, you're half-way there.

    Finally, if you're interested in freedom of expression in Canada, please read up on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and how jurisprudence works in relation to the hate propaganda laws (which among things, requires that the hate-monger be actively seeking or have access to an audience of some import). You might also note that prosecution under those laws is vanishingly rare...far rarer than the incidence of murder for reasons of hate in your appallingly violent country, for example.

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  66. Anonymous12:34 PM

    your appallingly violent country

    Them's fightin' words, pilgrim.

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  67. Anonymous12:36 PM

    bear the ethical and moral responsibilites

    BWAH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I am sure that will stop-'em dead in their tracks!

    Like those that steal elections, willingly violate the US Constitution, start wars based on likes, commit treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity care about "ethical and moral" issues.

    Very lame glenn -- you really don't have anything to add to this dialog.

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  68. KA-BAR: "At least you are not working under the assumption that they are either decent or sincere enough to be converted by the truth."

    That depends. Sometimes I write posts disagreeing with people who I do think are open to persuasion. But for the Malkins, Instapundits, Hinderakers, David Horowitzs, etc. - discrediting them is about diminishing their influence in the eyes of others and exposing their core corruption for those who may not yet see it. They have ceased being open to persuasion or rational dialogue a long time ago, and I am well aware of that.

    It's your blog brother but my statement and recommendation would be: You have a big voice and a big mind - use them in ways that will cut the heart out of these people rather than cutting off their tentacles.

    I understand. I responded because I am open to suggestions and criticisms regarding approaches to these issues. But there are some people who are dismissive of every approach without ever saying what they think ought to be done. I see now that you are not one of them.

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  69. Anonymous12:36 PM

    If highlighting their true beliefs and the reason they are so corrupt is so miguided, worthless, naive, etc. etc., what do you recommend instead?

    Glenn, you want to know what ka-bar, anonymous, myself, and some others recommend?

    Do I have to say it for you to understand?

    There a MILLION ways to kill someone - physically is only one. (And frankly, one of the few that is illegal.) If these assclowns on the right keep insisting on a war, then let's give them one, shall we?

    The only difference? They think war equals bombs, guns, etc. - and of course, physical death.

    I say if we're pushed into it, kill them in other ways - socially, religiously, fiscally, financially, communicationally (ever heard of Denial Of Service attacks), etc. etc. etc....

    That kind of war is not one they're intelligent enough to fight, or even expecting. And since it's legal, as you hint at, what's wrong with it?

    [Now don't feign anger... the point is, if their actions are unethical, they SHOULD be illegal. And a lawyer who truly believed that would find a way to make the "crimes" of the wingers stick. If you can't find a way to make their ethical crimes stick, your belief that the actions of those on the right is in question. You can't just cry "Bad guy" and expect their kind to stop because it's true. Use the tools we all have to fight the right fight. If this means bending the law a bit, so be it. That's why the law is flexible. If it was completely rigid, it would break.
    I'm NOT advocating war here. But folks like you have got to understand - if a war is what reich-wingers like Malkin want, and they push for it long enough, and hard enough, eventually, they WILL get it. What you have to show them to stop it is that as bad as they think they are is NOTHING compared to what the REAL horrors could be. Furthermore, we on "the other side" have been holding back our anger for so long, there is NOTHING they can do that we can't think of something worse on. Point blank, you get them to understand - there is NO universe in which they win and everyone else loses. Either all of us win, and they lose, or it's a painful Draw, but their dream of winning will NEVER happen. Then you tell them they can keep hating - but it keep it to themselves. Like the children they are, they'll sulk and kvetch a bit after that - but then they'll go back under their rock and quiet down. I didn't say they'd shut up - just become a topical eunuch.
    And when their topic is dominionism (their view) vs Freedom (everyone else's view), topical castration is not only OK - it's a must for society to continue to function.]

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  70. Anonymous12:36 PM

    the cynic librarian said...

    bart: The purpose of such outings was to shame the persons being identified and to place them under social pressure by their neighbors.

    Exactly. The problem is, shame is not a rational emotion nor is it appropriate in a debate concerning principles. The root of shame is an attempt to ostracize and put outside the bounds of human discourse those you shame. The goal of democratic processes, however, is inclusion and an attempt to incorporate diverse and different viewpoints and voices.


    Interesting point.

    I would note that this shaming technique is usually employed when the avenues of law and democracy have been shut off.

    The black minority in the South had been effectively shut out of the electoral process and could not democratically remove Jim Crow.

    With the Roe decision, the Supremes removed the abortion debate from the democratic process. Of the options left to the Pro Life movement outside of the democratic process, shaming is one of the least intrusive.

    In the case of the NYT, the DOJ has yet to take any action against the paper for violating multiple democratically enacted statutes, rendering those law effective nullities so far as the NYT is concerned. Thus, citizens who oppose this blatant law breaking must use alternatives other than enforcement in a court of law.

    Far from stifling debate, identifying a person and his or her acts to the person's neighbors gives the opportunity for debate between the person and his or her neighbors. Risen's neighbors might take exception to his disclosing intelligence gathering programs to the enemy and make him justify his acts. Privacy allows the person to avoid debate and controversy.

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  71. Cap'n Ed over at Captain's Quarters links to the StopTheACLU.com site.

    * * * * *

    On the general subject of intimidation and such:

    My SO is not happy that I post (and have posted for many years) using my real name (which, FWIW, isn't a hard name to track down, like "John Smith" or such). Once, on UseNet (well known for harbouring more than its share of kooks, nuts, and weirdos), I even posted my address of that time (which isn't too difficult to find in any case).

    I think that anonymity takes just a little out of one's message. If you feel strongly about something, and truly stand behind it, I think it helps to put your name to it. As for the risk of some nutzo going bonkers, yes, there's some small risk, but probably less that that of our trip to Sharm el-Sheikh over the New Year's, and even that was small. Chances are quite likely I'll die in some pedestrian and rather undignified manner, and if some nutzo does in fact track me down and kill me, maybe just that act will reveal these nutcases for what they are, and in some small way I'll have contributed something.

    But mostly, I refuse to live my life in fear. Sensible precautions, maybe (e.g., no immediate plans to go visit Iraq by intercity bus), but I won't let terrorists of any stripe cow me, and I will speak my piece. Put another way, I will always fight "in uniform".

    Cheers,

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  72. I'm sure it makes a great career for you, and gives you plenty to write about, but that's cold comfort for all the victims of public humiliation, shame, violence and murder that hateful incitement inevitably leads to.

    OK - when laws are enacted which make it a crime to express opinions which you hold - and when your views are considered "hateful" by a majority - you'll have no basis to complain since you think the majority can and should criminalize the expression of viewpoints it dislikes.

    I realize you don't mind now because you're the one doing the tyrannizing. But please do come back once that changes - and it will - and the views that are now crimes are your own.

    As a commenter pointed out earlier, what makes you think Nazi Germany couldn't be re-incarnated in the USA? As far as I'm concerned, you're half-way there.

    Yeah - because if there had only been hate speech laws in the Weimar Republic, there would have been no Hitler.

    One of the first things Hitler did - like all dictators -- is have his party begin enacting laws which criminalized certain viewpoints. That is always one of the hallmarks of tyranny.

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  73. KA-BAR - This comment is an example of what i meant:

    I am sure that will stop-'em dead in their tracks!

    Like those that steal elections, willingly violate the US Constitution, start wars based on likes, commit treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity care about "ethical and moral" issues.

    Very lame glenn -- you really don't have anything to add to this dialog.


    He is a real tough guy who recognizes that mere debate is insufficient to stop The Evil Ones. Notice, though, that he never says what would be sufficient. People like this almost never do.

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  74. Anonymous12:42 PM

    the point is, if their actions are unethical, they SHOULD be illegal.

    I disagree with this entirely.

    Laws are to order a society. Ethics are completely different.

    It is unethical to cheat on your spouse. It should not be illegal.

    The 1st amendment protects fascists as well as you or I. That is why it is worth fighting for. If it did not protect all speech, ethical as well as unethical, it would be useless.

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  75. Anonymous12:44 PM

    It's not illegal and shouldn't be. The First Amendment protects even express advocacy of violence and revolution. Holding someone legally responsible for the consequences of their opinions would be to destroy any meaningful conception of free speech.

    --Glenn Greenwald


    Well, that's good to know. And why I ask my attorney questions (in real life) rather than going off half-cocked. Though I must admit I that wish there were real-world consequences to which these clowns could be held. But as long as the right-wing keeps the sugar-daddy flowing, we're going to have to deal with these clowns as best we can, and that means by NOT IGNORING THEM, but by exposing them and burying them.

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  76. Anonymous12:50 PM

    I fail to see how publishing the home addresses and telephone numbers of NYT editors and reporters without any threats whatsoever does not enjoy the full protection of the First Amendment.

    Without getting into the First Amendment issue, as Glenn and others pointed out before, here's how one blogger (linked by other right-wingers) put it:

    Go hunt them down and do America a favor. Get their photo, street address, where their kids go to school, anything you can dig up, and send it to the link above. This is your chance to be famous - grab for the golden ring.

    Whether or not this states or implies a specific threat is arguable, but I don't think one could say it is without any threats whatsoever. I think phrases like hunt them down and where their kids go to school would be understood by most reasonable people to imply something other than merely taking political offense. Not to mention that the target here is precisely the First Amendment rights of the individuals being "hunted."

    Other than that, I agree with everything aimai said above (as usual). It goes beyond the obvious incitements of the usual suspects like Malkin, O'Reilly, and Horowitz. Listen to the nice Catholic momma's boy from Long Island, Sean Hannity, speaking of liberals as "EVIL" and the non-stop loathing and disgust even for war heroes who might say something critical of his Dear Leader, and most of all, the incessant inflammatory cries of victimization—liberals are out to destroy everything from your lifestyle to your country, and they think you're stupid, too!—and it's no wonder that the more rabid specimens would take the cue. If this were the Soviet Union, they would be screaming for the traitors to be turned over to the proper authorities! As this is America, with all our annoying civil rights, they don't trust authorities to be harsh enough, so they incite the populace, instead. It doesn't bode well.

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  77. Anonymous12:50 PM

    there were real-world consequences to which these clowns could be held

    There will be real-world consequences:

    1) the destruction of their movement's infrastructure
    2) the inevitable implosion of neocon thought in general, hopefully before things escalate too much
    3) the failure of their careers.

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  78. Anonymous12:54 PM

    OK - when laws are enacted which make it a crime to express opinions which you hold - and when your views are considered "hateful" by a majority - you'll have no basis to complain since you think the majority can and should criminalize the expression of viewpoints it dislikes.

    I'm sorry, but you really don't understand a fundamental difference between Canada and the US in terms of a social response to "hate" Not views that are "upopular" or "marginal" but actual "hate." You mention that people bear the moral obligation for the consequences of their expression, but how does that protect those who've already been victimised?

    Free-speech absolutism is like any other type of ideological extremism; how it plays out in the real world defines how useful it is. In a country that continues to be riven by racism, violence and domestic terror, not to mention a society were free expression is effectively constrained by wealth and power, you'd think someone would have clued in by now.

    Anyway, I never really cared about this until the invasion, when the USA decided that upwards of 50,000 innocent foreigners should be killed because America's ego was assaulted. What happens in the USA rarely concerns me as long, as it's confined there.

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  79. Anonymous12:54 PM

    First of all: Top-notch post, Glenn. I would hope it doesn't need to be repeated, but you have become (whether you meant to or not) one of the three or four leading voices of reason in the reality-based corner of the blogosphere. Please keep it up.

    On to less pleasant matters. Unfortunately we on the left have been saddled with the party-line view that violence is *so* reprehensible that even self-defense is a problematic course of action. This needs to stop, and stop now. Violence is reprehensible. But it is not morally forbidden. When you are physically attacked, you have the right--even the responsibility--to respond in kind.

    I remember one "liberal's" opinion that if he were to come home and find his wife being brutally attacked, and the attacker's gun on the dining room table, he would not be able to pick up that gun and shoot that attacker. This is not acceptable.

    Similarly, if and when the cornered rats escalate their would-be pogroms, each and every one of us has the right to defend ourselves. I would go so far as to say we have the responsibility to do so--a responsibility to those who would be attacked next, as well as a responsibility to our predecessors who most certainly would have done anything for the capability to defend themselves as they were led to their graves by their own governments.

    When they come wearing sheets to burn their cross in your yard, don't wait to see if they plan to escalate it from there. They *do*.

    A simple shotgun costs $150. It will *not* go off by itself. Possession of it will *not* turn you into a maniacal serial killer. It might, however, save your life one day.

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  80. Anonymous12:58 PM

    If anyone has the wherewithal to take a screen shot, I would ask them to go to StoptheACLU.com and capture that part of the page beginning:


    Who Is Stop The ACLU?


    by Jay on 01-04-06 @ 12:15 pm Filed under About Us

    Stop The ACLU.Com is the official blog of Stop The ACLU.Org. Our goal is to bring public awareness to the radical agenda of the American Civil Liberties Union. We are a grass roots effort to organize and get the general public actively involved in a campaign to stop the radical agenda of the ACLU, and the secular cleansing of America. You can get involved, and share your ideas with us by joining our Discussion Forum or our Blogburst Team. All you have to do is email me at Jay@stoptheaclu.com!

    We also want you to join the coalition, which will be the active arm of our organization, organizing protests, letter campaigns, etc.


    Given StoptheACLU.com's sudden, strained denials and attempts to distance itself from Stopthe ACLU.org, it is possible this passage will be scrubbed or altered.

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  81. Glenn, I see this as a sign that the radical right knows it is begining to fail at having complete control. And the more they lose the louder they will scream. This is the begining of them marginalizing themselves just like the KKK in Indiana circa 1924.

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  82. To our anon Canadian:

    Sorry free speech remains more important than hate suppression any day of the week.

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  83. Howard Kurtz mentioned this episode of insanity in his column today.

    He cited enough to show that it was about the Cheney and Rumsfeld homes, that some bloggers advocated finding the addresses of the NYT staff, that the info about the homes was not secret, and then Malkin's response.

    He did not mention Greenwald.
    He did not mention Greg Sargent.
    He did not mention who advocated the intimidation tactics of learning and posting the NYT staff addresses.
    He did not mention PowerTools, Instawhozit, or Horonutz.
    He did not mention Malkin's own history of posting personal information.
    He did not offer any commentary of his own, other than to provide the context of how much the vacation homes cost.

    That's quite a service he provided to his readers, don't you think.

    I predict that he will wait a respectable period, say two days, before quoting PowerTools or Instawhozit again.

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  84. Anonymous1:11 PM

    tommy yum said...
    Canadian...your appallingly violent country

    Them's fightin' words, pilgrim.



    Hahaha! Put a few Molson's in him. He'll see the light... before it goes out.

    We know. I love Canada and Canadians. Will you take us? Please?

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  85. Anonymous1:13 PM

    Sorry free speech remains more important than hate suppression any day of the week.

    Is it patently useless to have this discussion with Americans who are fundamentally propagandised into believing that their notions of freedom of speech (we have freedom of expression, by the way, which is broader than free speech) are superior to all others. Yeah...and somehow, you've ended up with "free speech zones," a debased media and a moron for a President.

    I give up. Go where it takes you and good luck with that.

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  86. Anonymous1:14 PM

    Consider that there's more than one amendment in the Bill of Rights. The right to bear arms represents an "emergency backstop" against this sort of thing.

    Unless, of course, it gets redefined as "the right to serve in an Official State Militia...".

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  87. Anonymous1:15 PM

    Glenn, you added: In response to several comments here, let me be clear that I do not believe that the despicable statements referenced in this post can or should be grounds for criminal or civil liability.

    I'm not so sure about that. Were I to find myself targetted like this, I would very likely bring a civil suit for harrassment in publishing details of my private life and encouraging folks to "come and get me."

    Maybe I'm off base, but I think the point of physical threat is one of the places where the first amendment ends.

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  88. Anonymous1:18 PM

    In my view, the focus should not be on criminal or other legal liability as a result of someone's opinions but on the ethical and moral responsibilities one has

    That crap might be "legal" and protected under Amendment 1 but...that doesn't hold in civil court. Anyone on the receiving end should sue the living shit out of everyone involved in disseminating the information.

    Myself, I would welcome any comers who "visited" my home as a result of such a winger hate attack, not that I hold any Public Figure juice to call for it. They would find themselves staring at the business end of a 7.62mm semi-auto rifle wielded by someone looking for any valid excuse to squeeze off a round.

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  89. But the folks he defended are the ones who put the judge's home address on the web.
    And going by what Glenn G. himself wrote -- that those who "defend" such tactics are ethically and morally responsible for the actions that ensue - either you're wrong, or Glenn is.


    There is a difference between "the right to do X" and defending "X". First Amendment lawyers who defend someone's right to express "Opinion X" are not thereby defending Opinion X itself.

    Seriously, isn't that obvious?

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  90. Anonymous1:20 PM

    ka-bar... And it isn't something one entertains lightly I agree. I really wish we weren't in this position. I would much prefer laughing at them as opposed to having to knock their heads together.

    Nuance (which they laughed at Kerry for) and orchestrated, close to the edge political theater and psyops has gotten them pretty far. Anyone can use those tools. My friend in Iraq keeps telling me to read Hackworth's book on insurgency and counter-insurgency, Hazardous Duty. That and Horowitz' The Art of Political Warfare. I think there might be some lessons in them books. Rommel read B.H. Liddel Hart's book and Patton read Rommel's book.

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  91. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  92. Yeah...and somehow, you've ended up with "free speech zones," a debased media and a moron for a President.

    I can't argue any of those points. But I do fail to see how criminalizing speech can be seen as a solution. It's the old slippery slope theory. If today, it's illegal to deny the holocaust, what's to prevent tomorrow, it being illegal to call the President a moron?

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  93. Anonymous1:23 PM

    Mike Griswald said...

    Bart: I fail to see how publishing the home addresses and telephone numbers of NYT editors and reporters without any threats whatsoever does not enjoy the full protection of the First Amendment.

    Without getting into the First Amendment issue, as Glenn and others pointed out before, here's how one blogger (linked by other right-wingers) put it:

    Go hunt them down and do America a favor. Get their photo, street address, where their kids go to school, anything you can dig up, and send it to the link above. This is your chance to be famous - grab for the golden ring.

    Whether or not this states or implies a specific threat is arguable, but I don't think one could say it is without any threats whatsoever. I think phrases like hunt them down and where their kids go to school would be understood by most reasonable people to imply something other than merely taking political offense.


    The phrase "hunt them down" apparently refers the task in the very next sentence of obtaining their identity and contact information.

    Personally, I don't much like requests for information concerning their kids, who have done nothing. However, that, in itself, is not a threat of violence. You can confront (harass) their kids with speech the same way you can the parents.

    From a defense lawyer's point of view, these bloggers need to make sure their language is tempered and non-inflamatory.

    The NYT has the resources to bankrupt the average person with law suits, even if those law suits do not succeed in the end.

    Your best shot as short circuiting such a law suit and perhaps recovering your attorney's fees and costs is to stay so well within the law so that the suit will be dismissed as frivolous at the outset.

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  94. Anonymous1:24 PM

    Do you think "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" is still in syndication?

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  95. Anonymous1:24 PM

    No one has criminalised speech. What is criminalised in Canada is hate propaganda.

    Anway, as I've said, good luck with that. You (and we all) will certainly need it.

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  96. Anonymous1:25 PM

    I'm not so sure about that. Were I to find myself targetted like this, I would very likely bring a civil suit for harrassment in publishing details of my private life and encouraging folks to "come and get me."

    And fortunately, you would likely win your case...and rightly so. I would also do as you suggest and I would be out to utterly destroy the perps economically, plus any and all offspring from here on out. A civil trial with jurors like you and me would see right through this crap and nail those responsible. The First Amendment might make it legal but a civil court with normal jurors would see this as the First Amendment protections being improperly taken advantage of. Technically it may be legal but it is wrong and thus the perpetrators deserve to pay.

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  97. Anonymous1:28 PM

    It's occasionally distasteful, but the ends justify the means. As long as you get someone else who doesn't hate America to do the dirty work.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous1:29 PM

    David Harmon said...

    Unless, of course, it gets redefined as "the right to serve in an Official State Militia...".


    Actually, unless things have changed much in the last 6 years...

    The Amendment is only 27 words: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." While the NRA emphasizes only the last 14 words, the U.S. Supreme Court and appeals courts have focused on "well-regulated militia" and "security of a free State" to rule that Second Amendment rights are reserved to states and their militias – nowadays, the National Guards.

    The truth is -- and one would hardly know it from the mass media -- that since the Supreme Court's unanimous Miller decision in 1939, all federal appeals courts, whether dominated by liberals or conservatives, have agreed that the Second Amendment does not confer gun rights on individuals. The NRA view, opposed even by such right-wing judges as Robert Bork, has been consistently rejected.

    Unlike the average media consumer, Douglas Hickman knows this truth. In 1991, he invoked the Second Amendment in suing the City of Los Angeles after failing to get a permit for a concealed weapon. In keeping with dozens of cases since 1939, the Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously: "We follow our sister circuits in holding that the Second Amendment is a right held by the states and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen."


    That damn "liberal media" again.

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  99. Anonymous1:30 PM

    I don't much like requests for information concerning their kids, who have done nothing. However, that, in itself, is not a threat of violence. You can confront (harass) their kids with speech the same way you can the parents.

    Likewise, you can torture* the children of suspected terrorists in order to get the legendary bomb codes. As Yoo noted, crushing a child's testicles may sometimes be called for.

    *I am using the real definition of torture, not the Bu'ushist anti-definition, which basically amounts to: "Don't leave any marks."

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  100. Anonymous1:32 PM

    Anonymous said...
    No one has criminalised speech. What is criminalised in Canada is hate propaganda.


    I could livwe with that, but it's probably not going to happen down here south of the border.

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  101. The First Amendment might make it legal but a civil court with normal jurors would see this as the First Amendment protections being improperly taken advantage of. Technically it may be legal but it is wrong and thus the perpetrators deserve to pay.

    You're mistaken. There are no differences between the criminal and civil context for First Amendment purposes. The Claiborne case I cited above was a case about civil liability, not criminal liability.

    A judgment in a civil trial is considered to be state action against the defendant. It can no more be based upon protected speech than imprisonment can be. Free speech is endangered just as much if the state can destroy you through bankruptcy as a result of your views as it is if the state can imprison you for those views.

    As (I believe) Hypatia said above, free speech isn't free. Jefferson often pointed out that it comes with a huge cost - namely, having to tolerate, and being prohibited from using the State to restrain, obnoxious and even dangerous speech. It's a price well worth paying, given the alternative.

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  102. Anonymous1:35 PM

    It's the old slippery slope theory. If today, it's illegal to deny the holocaust, what's to prevent tomorrow, it being illegal to call the President a moron?

    The former is not based on accepted, peer reviewed facts factual, the latter is, under the current administration, as anyone with a TV set can see for themselves.

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  103. From here

    Propagandists echoed and magnified the hatred and suspicion sown by Habyarimana and officials around him. Under the cover of the newly-established freedom of the press, they blared forth messages disseminated more discreetly by officials, such as many of the conclusions about the “enemy” presented in the military memorandum of September 21, 1992.

    ...

    The author of the note claims to convey lessons learned from the book and drawn from Lenin and Goebbels. He advocates using lies, exaggeration, ridicule, and innuendo to attack the opponent, in both his public and his private life. He suggests that moral considerations are irrelevant, except when they happen to offer another weapon against the other side. He adds that it is important not to underestimate the strength of the adversary nor to overestimate the intelligence of the general public targeted by the campaign. Propagandists must aim both to win over the uncommitted and to cause divisions among supporters of the other point of view. They must persuade the public that the adversary stands for war, death, slavery, repression, injustice, and sadistic cruelty.

    ...

    The propagandist calls his second proposal “Accusation in a mirror,” meaning his colleagues should impute to enemies exactly what they and their own party are planning to do. He explains, “In this way, the party which is using terror will accuse the enemy of using terror.” With such a tactic, propagandists can persuade listeners and “honest people” that they are being attacked and are justified in taking whatever measures are necessary “for legitimate [self-] defense.”2 This tactic worked extremely well, both in specific cases such as the Bugesera massacre of March 1992 described below and in the broader campaign to convince Hutu that Tutsi planned to exterminate them. There is no proof that officials and propagandists who “created” events and made “accusations in a mirror” were familiar with this particular document, but they regularly used the techniques that it described.

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  104. No one has criminalised speech. What is criminalised in Canada is hate propaganda.

    How Orwellian. "Hate propaganda" is nothing other than "speech that the majority thinks is hateful." It could be the view that homosexuality is immoral. It could be the view that Christianity is immoral. As it happens, today, in Canada, "hate propaganda" is defined to include the former, but with a slight shift in the majority's views, it could easily come to include the latter instead.

    The Right thinks the Left's views are hateful. The Left thinks the Right's views are hateful. In the Canadaian system, whoever has more on their side gets to define the other side's views as criminal (meaning you can literally be fined or imprisoned for expressing those views, which is what happens in Canada). Some who are in the majority like getting to do that, but their affection for "hate speech" laws which last only until it is their views that become the "hateful" ones.

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  105. Banning hate speech is never the answer. It must be exposed and defeated, with intellectual force.

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  106. Anonymous1:41 PM

    I give up. Go where it takes you and good luck with that.

    I'd love to move to Canada. I just can't afford it. So I intend to stay here and fight. I have no other choice and I am pissed off enough not to mind that terribly. Let them move someplace else.

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  107. Anonymous1:42 PM

    Can "anonymous" (or anyone else) define "free speech absolutist?"

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  108. Anonymous1:47 PM

    Maybe Canada will get more polarized than it is now as time goes on. Like it is here. The battle between the left and the right didn't just evaporate with the fall of communism. But what they have seems to work for them now. I can see the danger of it down the road if they become more polarized. I think that is happening. So much for Fukuyama and the End of History. Relegated to the dustbin of history like Hayek and every other conservative hack. The end of history? :snort:

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  109. Anonymous1:48 PM

    How Orwellian. "Hate propaganda" is nothing other than "speech that the majority thinks is hateful."

    Orwellian? Oh, c'mon...you're losing it. Take deep breaths.

    Glenn, you're not familiar with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the notions of individual and group rights that exist here, and jurisprudence on the issue of Canada's hate propaganda laws. Your response seems to be more emotional than reasonnable. That's fine...I've certainly heard that enough from free-speech absolutists, but I find it odd that the only real material instances of Orwellian terror I'm seeing these days is in the US.

    Like I keep on saying, good luck.

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  110. Anonymous1:50 PM

    This method was also used by extremist anti-abortion groups, who published addresses of doctors providing abortion services, along with more or less veiled suggestions to kill them. And indeed several were attacked, shot fired through windows, and at least one killed. I think that there were at least civil sanctions against the owners of the web site that promoted this (happily drawing bloody red lines through doctors who were killed or quit provding services due to threats).

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  111. Anonymous1:50 PM

    That's fine...I've certainly heard that enough from free-speech absolutists, but I find it odd that the only real material instances of Orwellian terror I'm seeing these days is in the US.

    It is an odd paradox. It's quite odd.

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  112. I occassionaly surf by the Daily Kos, where they do this "Diary Rescue" thing to refocus people's attention on previously posted material that might otherwise be overlooked...
    In a similar vein, I just thought I'd rescue a comment Glenn Greenwald made (with respect to HWSNBN)
    "Surely even you can see what a complete waste of time your posts here are?"

    ROTFLMAO

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  113. Anonymous1:54 PM

    I think most Americans believe so strongly in the ideal of free speech (even if they never apply it consistently) that they can't really believe "free speech zones" and the like are permanent affairs.

    They see it as an unfortunate, probably not quite kosher, compromise. But we will surely return to normality soon, they feel.

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  114. Anonymous1:54 PM

    The Nuremburg list or files is the anti-abortionist list people are referring to.

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  115. but I find it odd that the only real material instances of Orwellian terror I'm seeing these days is in the US.

    Excellent point. The political problems in America stem from the fact that our constitution guarantees free speech. If only the Bush administration and the Republican-controlled Congress had the power to enact laws criminalizing the expression of certain political views or things they considered "hateful propaganda" (as the government in Canada can and does), things would be much, much better.

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  116. Anonymous2:00 PM

    Hume's Ghost said...
    Banning hate speech is never the answer. It must be exposed and defeated, with intellectual force.


    It reminds me of an arms race in a way. Measure, countermeasure. There was political correctness. They did not like that and reacted to it and now they are using the same sort of tactics and much worse, to silence what they deem as politcally incorrect speech. They just call it treason, defeatist, blah, blah.

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  117. Anonymous2:05 PM

    Ka-bar... And B) If it is true and they can not be shamed or marginalized and their masters can not be driven from office through the normal channels then what is the recourse? You never did answer that part of my earlier post. At what point is the line drawn?

    I think that Q&A is above all of our pay grades. Even Glenn's, but maybe he will take a shot at it. Maybe it's a question to be posed and explored in his next book.

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  118. Anonymous2:10 PM

    Glenn Greenwald... If only the Bush administration and the Republican-controlled Congress had the power to enact laws criminalizing the expression of certain political views or things they considered "hateful propaganda" (as the government in Canada can and does), things would be much, much better.

    That's enough to scare anyone. The real problem is far more complex and stems from a convergence of factors that have allowed a radical minority viewpoint to come to almost total power in this country. That's scary in and of itself.

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  119. Anonymous2:11 PM

    they are using the same sort of tactics and much worse, to silence what they deem as politcally incorrect speech. They just call it treason, defeatist, blah, blah.


    Only in this case it is with clearly implied threat. Openly threatening words are used by the Coulters out there (about poisoning the dinner of Justices that don't tow the party line, or lining up people for being shot, hung, or sent to gulag) under the umbrella of the First Amendment, meaning exactly what it means when they say it - hoping that someone out there will take them at their words and "do something".

    Here's a fact: after all the rancid demonization of liberals, intellectuals, scientists, journalists as traitors, doctors as murderers, and the clearly implied threats against plain people who have the gall to stand up for the Constitution and Bill of Rights against religious persecution, someone WILL "do something" completely in line with the clearly implied, protected threats. It WILL happen (for doctors and some scientists it already has).

    This nonsense will come to actual blows. It will. As sure as Bush is an idiot or Cheney is a murderous robot, the incessant threats against people because of their jobs, their religion (or lack thereof), their politics will bear the fruit intended. Intellectual argument wont hold up against it when it does. It cannot.

    One cannot argue intellectually with NAZIs and their brethren.

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  120. Anonymous2:12 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Hume's Ghost said...

    Banning hate speech is never the answer. It must be exposed and defeated, with intellectual force.

    It reminds me of an arms race in a way. Measure, countermeasure. There was political correctness. They did not like that and reacted to it and now they are using the same sort of tactics and much worse, to silence what they deem as politcally incorrect speech. They just call it treason, defeatist, blah, blah.


    Then engage them on their own terms with substantive debate.

    If they describe the NYT disclosure to the enemy of the details of top secret intelligence programs targeting that enemy as "treason," then prove why such an act does not fall under the definition of treason.

    Ad hominem attacks and name calling are are not a substantive rebuttal.

    Given the current case law on treason, we could have a serious, fascinating and very topical conversation on whether what is published by the press or the blogs could be considered treason.

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  121. Anonymous2:16 PM

    Does Reynolds think he, himself, is exempt from these tactics?? I'd be interested in his answer.
    judyo

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  122. nbibrThis nonsense will come to actual blows.
    anon @ 2:11 PM

    With the constant agitating, that is exactly the intent. They are quite certain, and probably in some instances they are right, that actual violence is the only way to shut us up.

    But they forget- we actually believe in "Give me liberty or give me death." and "Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserves neither liberty nor security."

    We don't piss our pants at every threat to come down the pike, willing to throw our little grandma's out the door to appease the wolves-we will fight for American principles; and we will do it with principle as well as passion because we are on the right side of not only history, but morality as well.

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  123. Anonymous2:21 PM

    Hypatia -

    Here is your screenshot.

    I am really a big fan of the distinction that has come out of this discussion today between "legal" and "ethical."

    I think this needs some more play. The fact that there may, in fact be some memorandum, dicta, opinion concurrence, or otherwise arcane legal justification for behavior does not make that behavior ethical or right in any way shape or form.

    I do not want to prosecute these idiots, I just want to make people aware of the fact that they are, in fact, idiots.

    I am not interested in convincing Malkin of anything. But there are people out there who are reasonable, caring, sensitive, thoughtful, ethical people who are still willing to listen to the shrill, empty, vacuous, and distorted battle-cry from the right as opposed to the shrill, empty, vacuous, and distorted battle-cry from the left.

    I honestly don't know where I stand in the political spectrum too well. I do know that I find the behavior of this administration in regards to the reaction to 9/11, the lying and manipulation in regards to the Iraq war lead up, and the obsessive and dubiously needed focus on secrecy and "new tactics" (anyone else struck with the irony here that this is a call to reinstitute techniques that Western civilization has shunned from a moral sense since the middle ages, and yet they are somehow needed to face a "new" situation) completely reprehensible and unethical.

    I am not a lawyer and don't want to become one. But I know that torture is wrong, and don't want my government to spend a lot of time tiptoeing through legal minefields to figure out what forms of prisoner abuse meet the proscribed prohibitions on torture.

    I just want them to fucking stop torturing people.

    I just want them to stop listening to my phone calls.

    I just want them to stop reading my bank statements. (Unless they want to up the ante here a little?I'm kinda broke >:->)

    This may be idealistic - that does not mean it is unrealistic, just that it requires a drop in the cynical guard.

    Someone posted a clip from this speech the other day which also focuses on this distinction, from the other side. Kennedy discusses the Cold War in language eerily similar to that being used today about terrorists - It[the Cold War] requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper...

    He makes an appeal to the sense of public dignity, unity, and morality of the press, attempting to convince instead of coerce, to cajole instead of bully, to lead instead of force. The differences between Kennedy (who I do not, in general, hold as an example of a "great" President) and, as Garrison Keillor puts it, the current Occupant, are stark, and not flattering.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous2:24 PM

    Bart: [Emphasis added] " Read my post again carefully. I never stated that you asserted that this speech was not protected by the First Amendment. . . .Your argument is nearly a carbon copy of the arguments . . .attempting to shut down the Nuremburg Files . . .The purpose of my post was to smoke you out and make you justify what I consider to be an outrageous argument against free speech. "

    Bart, thank you for taking the time to write. Although the issue of whether I disagree or agree with you is irrelevant, I wanted you to know that I appreciate your taking the time to carefully review what is being said. Your enthusiasm, focus, and energy are much appreciated.

    Moreover, I applaud you for taking the time to carefully analyze the arguments you are reading; and carefully reflect on them. My reason for writing is to express my appreciation for your taking the time to carefully review the issues, provide your commentary, and dare to challenge what, from your perspective, is a less than credible argument.

    You should be proud that you are getting others to review the issues, and carefully compare whether various lines of evidence and arguments are credible. The point isn't whether I might agree or disagree with you; the point is that you force the adversarial system into the open, and compel accountability.

    Again, make no mistake: The issue isn't that you are agreed with or disagreed with; the point is that you are compelling others to be more responsive, exacting, and accountable for their comments. I would hope that you continue to exercise your leadership and encourage your peers to also embrace your statesmanship and see that others can learn from your example.

    Yes, you may be vilified, but it is clear that you are under attack not because your point is or is not flawed; but because others may have run out of valid points that might otherwise never get challenged.

    Please know that even though some may violently disagree with you, your contributions are valuable and you force the audience to consider the merits of the full range of arguments. Please continue to move with confidence that you contributions are valued, appreciated, and welcomed, even by those who may disagree with you. You are forcing the truth to surface.

    Perhaps with time you may be in a position to offer your ideas on what might be done, especially in situations where there are common problems faced by all. Your comments are welcome, and I would hope that you accept these comments in the spirit that they are intended: Respect, admiration, and trust that you will continue to demonstrate your continued commitment for truth, accountability, and responsibility.

    I would hope that others when the discuss issues with you realize that, when they speak to you in a condescending manner, or throw up their hands and say, “Oh, you just don’t get it,” are really saying a lot about themselves: They are incapable of intellectually prevailing over what they assert, without proof, is a “weak argument.” Rather, it is clear that when someone makes an argument, twists facts, and then complains that others “aren’t getting it,” is really saying a lot about their inability to craft an argument so that anyone can understand it. It is one thing to assert one is right; quite another to demonstrate that the asserted ‘correct argument’ has merit on its own right.

    As you well know, all you’re doing is simply challenging the unexamined. That is healthy, welcomed, and I hope you keep this in the back of your mind as you continue posting here and in other places: You provide a valuable service. I hope that you do not take the personal attacks in a way that you may choose to use as a justification to lash out against those who are beneath you, or not capable of calmly discussing a flawed arguments. Their reaction, exhaustion, and personal attacks on you are about them, not you. Where their argument fails, they appear to have turned their insecurities outward. That is noted, not inspiring, and tends to diminish them. Whether they comprehend their flaws, or fear you is irrelevant. The issue is that you are simply doing what all are capable of doing: Challenging that which is not a credible argument. The public can make a choice and it is clear that some are more capable.

    Based on your comment, it appears there are some recurring trends that you are noticing, and I look forward to reading more on your analysis, commentary, and summary conclusions related to the flawed arguments and otherwise defective lines of evidence. Perhaps you may have ideas on the recurring patterns and flawed arguments. These would be interesting to read, and hear your analysis: Things to watch out for, and other things simple mind readers like myself might review in other locations to fully embrace the apparent agendas, and flawed arguments.

    Thank you for your example, and I wish you the best in your continued efforts. Good luck. Keep up the good work. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous2:33 PM

    From Bart at 2:12pm:

    "Then engage them on their own terms with substantive debate."

    And 'their own terms' are absolute rubbish, Bart, what then?

    If they're insisting the smallest detail *they* didn't previously know is published on Page One is prima fasca evidence of treason (despite the many counter-arguments by more qualified professionals), what then?

    You want to have an actual debate, be ready to acknowledge and accept facts that counter your preconceived notions. To date, you've shown no such inclination.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous2:35 PM

    You're mistaken. There are no differences between the criminal and civil context for First Amendment purposes. The Claiborne case I cited above was a case about civil liability, not criminal liability.

    Very true. A civil suit would never get past a judge on a motion to dismiss or summary judgment to even get to the jury in the first place.

    Indeed, California's civil harassment statute specifically states that a harassment TRO/injunction will not be issued if it will restrict the constitutional rights of the defendant.

    --Kristin

    ReplyDelete
  127. Wouldn't that make this a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate alternative terror-fighting techniques posited as alternatives to having invaded Iraq?

    Like maybe finishing the job in Afghanistan, capturing or killing Bin Laden, securing the ex-Soviet Union's nuclear materials, actually guarding our container ports....is that what you mean?

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous2:52 PM

    Does Reynolds think he, himself, is exempt from these tactics?

    Rather than retaliate in kind, it would be far more effective to simply blast the face off of the first rightwing thug to cross your threshhold. It would also be perfectly legal, at least in my state.

    I already know of one blogger who had to stay up a few tense nights, cradling a shotgun, and he was dealing with out-loud Nazis. I'm armed, and I'm not scared of a damned thing. The people using these Radio Rwanda tactics are cowards. That explains their ideology and their tactics. All you have to do is drop one and the rest will scatter.

    Stay within the law, and be safe.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous3:05 PM

    So much for Fukuyama and the End of History. Relegated to the dustbin of history like Hayek and every other conservative hack. The end of history? :snort:

    1:47 PM

    Well, he did say 'sorry' later on.

    ReplyDelete
  130. hume's ghost: Banning hate speech is never the answer. It must be exposed and defeated, with intellectual force.

    I disagree. Often, the Left equates right with reason or "intellectual force." Human beings are not convinced by reason/logic alone. They are motivated for emotional and ethical reasons as well.

    And, again, the Left often equates intellect with the ethical. Just as the legal does not equal or translate into what's ethical, so reason in and of itself does not translate into the ethical.

    ReplyDelete
  131. So what you're saying is that you'll defend someone's right to believe in "X" and to promulgate their belief in "X" but should someone actually DO "X", then it's not your problem and you (in contrast to your plain words) bear no "moral or ethical[]" responsibility for the consequences?

    Yes, precisely. I defend someone's right to criticize and even rail against Muslims, or business tycoons, or polluters, or Jews, or socialists -- but I don't defend their rights to kill them. It's the difference between ideas/opinions and actions.

    Are you really having trouble with that distinction?

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous3:21 PM

    I am just astounded at the number of liberals that are advocating violence here. Perhaps you should remember...
    * that you haven't been attacked


    Yet. Don't worry, it is coming. It IS inevitable given the "treason" rhetoric. It is inevitable given the weak hold on reality enjoyed by the the Wingnuts and Dominionists that make up the enemy.

    I am liberal and a gun owner. I am more than willing to pump a full metal jacket into any wingnut thug that crosses my threshold. You see, you missed that part of the previous comment. "...crosses your threshold" as in, invades your home/attacks you as a logical and inevitable result of this eliminationist speech. The comment also mentioned about legality (self defense is ALWAYS an ultimate right).

    We espousing the cordite solution are referring to the end product of this eliminationist speech. Responding to an actual attack by a nutter that takes up the Coulters and O'Reillys and Malkins (and Robertsons and his ilk) on their words and actually does.

    The rest of your post:
    * retaliating will just create more conservatives

    No, when being attacked (not rhetorically attacked, attacked) the appropriate response is what it has always been: bang-bang.

    * the pen is mightier than the sword but not a WMD currently.

    No. This is a useful as a means of trying to stop the nutters before they germinate to fruition of the Malkin call to action. Once the wacks start acting out, the pen is only useful as a last-ditch close-in hand-to-hand weapon. Aim for an eye.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous3:25 PM

    Quoth the Bart:
    You claim or at least strongly imply that the NYT has a First Amendment right to publish classified intelligence gathering programs without fear of subsequent prosecution, but ignore my repeated challenges to produce the interpreting case law which supports that assertion.

    I saw this yesterday, but since a friend has sent it to me again, I thought I'd swat the fly. The issue is a lack of law:

    ... There is no comprehensive statute that outlaws the publication of classified information.

    (As Ms. Priest went on to explain, there are several narrow categories of classified information, such as communications intelligence, covert agent identities, and a few others that are protected by statute.)

    A new report from the Congressional Research Service describes the legal framework governing the disclosure and publication of classified national security information.

    "This report provides background with respect to previous legislative efforts to criminalize the unauthorized disclosure of classified information; describes the current state of the laws that potentially apply, including criminal and civil penalties that can be imposed on violators; and some of the disciplinary actions and administrative procedures available to the agencies of
    federal government that have been addressed by federal courts."

    "Finally, the report considers the possible First Amendment implications of applying the Espionage Act to prosecute newspapers for publishing classified national defense information."

    The Congressional Research Service does not make its products directly available to the public. But a copy of the new CRS report was obtained by Secrecy News.

    See "Protection of National Security Information," June 30, 2006:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL33502.pdf


    Further thoughts:

    1. those authorized to handle classified info may lose that authority and suffer penalities already spelled out in their employment agreements

    2. no employment agreement, however, can compel someone to hide or be implicit in a crime

    3. if Bart is talking about what I think he's talking about, it wasn't classifed.

    So, for those of us who don't pretend to have law degrees just because they're been reading Tom Clancy, the fact that the adminstration (Cheney, specifically) is fanning the flames of "treason" over information made public by George Bush himself (among others) means that a weakened party is trying to prop itself back up by flirting with open fascism.

    If any of the cracked vessels among their demented followers thinks he's going to be a hero by becoming a terrorist, well that's what my second amendment rights are for.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous3:27 PM

    Glenn said: "If highlighting their true beliefs and the reason they are so corrupt is so miguided, worthless, naive, etc. etc., what do you recommend instead?"

    The recommendation is to continue to do what you are doing, Glenn.

    At heart, wingers are bigots. Their ideology is profoundly anti-intellectual. Because it is anti-intellectual it cannot withstand close scrunity or thoughtful analysis. In short, what wingers fear most is transparency. To avoid transparency, they rely on tactics such as "framing". These tactics are purile; i.e. shifting blame, attributing motives to others that they themselves embrace and bambastic diatribes ala Malkin, Limbaugh, etc. Everytime you pick their actions and arguments apart, you provide much needed transparency as to these tactics. Keep it up.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous3:27 PM

    bart said:

    In the case of the NYT, the DOJ has yet to take any action against the paper for violating multiple democratically enacted statutes, rendering those law effective nullities so far as the NYT is concerned. Thus, citizens who oppose this blatant law breaking must use alternatives other than enforcement in a court of law.

    Bart is desperately trying to stay on his last remaining "talking point," i.e., distraction.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous3:34 PM

    Mr. Greenwald, a Canuck here, not the anonymous Canadian you have been exchanging views with.

    Equating Canada with Nazi Germany violates Godwin's, adds nothing to the debate and severely misrepresents the current political climate in Canada. That is pardonable ignorance on your part, since you don't live in Canada and don't take part in the ongoing controversies we have in Canada regarding our "hate" laws. But I can give some information to readers here who may otherwise surmise, from your comparison of Canada to Germany in 1934, that Canada is on the verge of some kind of socialist dictatorship.

    1) There is ongoing vigorous debate about the legality and utility of our "hate" laws. This debate has made it very difficult, though not impossible, to enforce these laws. Currently, the majority of the Canadian public don't support "hate" laws, and any prosecution runs into severe political difficulties, even for a majority party, precisely because Canadians are quite mistrustful of their politicians of all stripes.

    The odd thing is, as much as Americans do have an absolute right of free speech, a diminishing proportion of you seem free to exercise it, preferring instead to parrot or to be intimidated by the powerful right-wing media in your country.

    2) Likewise, you seem to assume that our judiciary is as slavish to the explicit political goals of the party who appointed them as are the members of your Supreme and Appeals Courts. That is untrue. In fact, our current PM is trying to rouse sentiment against an "activist judiciary" which often rules against the government -- and he's not getting much support, as the judges' interpretations of the Charters of Rights and Freedoms are popular with electorate, in general.

    3) Regarding the basic argument against hate speech, though, the Nazis remain a perfect example of how unregulated and unopposed speech, specifically that highlighting the supposed perfidy and inferiority of the Jews is part and parcel of the road to an intransigent and murderous dictatorship. It is a fact that lies and threats, repeated constantly, do have an effect upon people's actions, up to the point where they visit murderous violence upon their neighbours, or condone such.

    Such is the power of words, particularly if one group have a virtual monopoly on the public promulgation of such.

    This is not to say that laws against "hate" speech cannot be twisted to justify political repression; they can be, and are, and such possibilities must be taken seriously. Canada's "hate" laws are an attempt to stop the incitement to violence against identifiable minority groups within our society, to stop such movements from gaining the momentum and political and military power they have achieved in the United States. Because the writers of the laws have not been able to identify concrete benefits as great as the limitations of speech they impose, enforement is difficult. As a matter of lsw, the "hate" speech law is written so specifically that it would be virtually impossible, absent an existing dictatorship, to make it apply to any broad range of political opinion or dissent.

    As I said, the debate continues.

    But accusing Canada of a Nazi sensibility when your the political establishment of your own country is measurably further down that path, in word, in action, and in philosophy, does not address the central question: what to do with these intimidators who unethically abuse the power given to them by Free Speech?

    You haven't posted any answers, and have explicitly asked for posters to provide some answers, so I will put down a couple of suggestions, short-term and long-term.

    1) Tit-for-tat: As you have noted, victims of such harrassment (as the posting of their personal information and addresses) have neither criminal nor civil recourse; and as the perpetrators have neither the ethical sensibility nor the moral sense to refrain, nor even a common vocabulary to debate with, they must be faced with like actions.

    Publish their addresses and phone #'s. Every time they expose someone. Do it. Every. Time. Until they stop or moderate their actions. And since most of them seem to be devout cowards, this should stop them in the short term. And however unethical you may feel, that feeling is far better than the paralyzing fear of harm to yourself and your loved ones. It may may you feel dirty, but self-defence is not only not a crime, it is a prerequisite to maintaining a civil society. When people give up defending themselves, the offenders will respect no boundaries whatsoever.

    That's short-term.

    2) A longer-term strategy is bifold: after winning Congress and the Presidency back, restore the Fairness Doctrine, then break up the multi-media empires which allow and encourage the dissemination and repetition of such cant and lies.

    Just my contribution.

    ReplyDelete
  137. "Then engage them on their own terms with substantive debate."

    What exactly do you see when you visit these boards? Are you wearing some sort of magic They Live glasses or something that allows you to see something that we don't?

    When I read this blog, I am seeing substantial debate exposing the intellectual bankruptcy of people like Malkin.

    Please direct me to the post where Glenn attempted to argue that Malkin was wrong by repeatedly calling her a "wingnut" or some other epithet.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous3:39 PM

    At heart, wingers are bigots. Their ideology is profoundly anti-intellectual. Because it is anti-intellectual it cannot withstand close scrunity or thoughtful analysis. In short, what wingers fear most is transparency.

    Pretty words. Maybe they're true...or maybe not. I have no doubt about the wingers being bigots and extremely anti-intellectual - this has always been the way of such groups. The problem comes in trying to beat them down with intellectual argument. It doesn't work on them. Such argument can only work on those who are not among the dedicated, empty-headed ranks. Fine and dandy.

    The problem is that the wingers tend to act. They vote, they move in concert. The people you must win over by intellectual argument and light-of-day airing out are those that tend, by and large, to sit back and NOT vote. Sit back and poo-poo the threat. Think that the threat is just too crazy, too nuts, to worry about and that there's "just no way things can go their way".

    But history shows that things DO go their way. Repeatedly. Because those who are actually open to intellectual argument sit it out in complacent belief that things wont change and the inmates wont take over the asylum.

    Inmates DO take over the asylum. That IS history over and over.

    Argue and air their views. Do it repeatedly. But be prepared for the armies of the Enlightenment to sit out the fight when it comes down to it (don't go to the polls, ignore school boards being taken over by nutcases, etc). All the arguing from intellect does nothing unless those open to the arguments act in more numbers than the very active and dedicated forces of the Dark Ages.

    Make the arguments and hope that it works but be prepared to have to, in the end, drop a few of the enemy when the good guys sit down and let them come.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous3:43 PM

    I am just astounded at the number of liberals that are advocating violence here.

    Quit whining and quit running. No one's advocating violence. If you're not a threat to me, I'm not a threat to you.

    Have you grasped that yet?

    * that you haven't been attacked

    Except for the Nuremberg Files example I gave.

    * retaliating will just create more conservatives

    Briar-patch ploy. Nice. You idiots need to get new talking points. The "retaliation" I was talking about would actually reduce the number of conservatives.

    * the pen is mightier than the sword but not a WMD currently

    Not WMD, Radio Rwanda.

    * Democracy is not a good reason to threaten conservatives

    Unless they threaten democracy, in which case they will be removed.

    * no link between conservatives posting information and terrorism has been established

    Except in the case of the Nuremberg Files.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous3:44 PM

    Hairhead said...
    Mr. Greenwald, a Canuck here, not the anonymous Canadian you have been exchanging views with.


    Good post, well said. I'll just paste myself to your words and claim them as mine.

    ReplyDelete
  141. HWSNBN feigns cluelessness again, successfully:

    [Glenn]: I did not say that the speech I am criticizing is not constitutionally protected. I criticized the substance of the speech. I did not argue that it was criminal or beyond the reach of the First Amendment.

    Read my post again carefully. I never stated that you asserted that this speech was not protected by the First Amendment.

    HWSNBN denies that was his thrust in this effluent:

    [HWSNBN]: I fail to see how publishing the home addresses and telephone numbers of NYT editors and reporters without any threats whatsoever does not enjoy the full protection of the First Amendment.

    Either HWSNBN is doing his favourite tactic of arguing against "straw men" here (in a specific case where the actual argument of his opponent is not just a different one, but the exact opposite), or he's insinuating that Glenn had made such an argument. Maybe HWSNBN "fails to see" it because Glenn didn't either.

    It's clear that HWSNBN was going directly after Glenn, given his introduction to his first posts:

    [HWSNBN]: This is a fascinating take by a self proclaimed 1st Amendment attorney.

    Given Glenn's history and very public opinions, it looks like HWSNBN would find a penny lying on the floor "fascinating", and a spinning top totally beyond comprehension. Which says much more about HWSNBN than it does about Glenn.

    HWSNBN is pwn3d, and doesn't even have the grace to admit it. "Quelle surprise", as one other poster noted. HWSNBN, not to be daunted by facts, continues:

    Your argument is nearly a carbon copy of the arguments made by the feminists attempting to shut down the Nuremburg Files website that publishing the names and addresses of abortionists on virtual wanted posters was outside of the First Amendment.

    The only point of the feminists argument which was not expressly made in yours was the conclusion that the speech you were railing against was outside of the First Amendment.

    Accusations, all unsupported (and unsupportable), and baseless. Typical HWSNBN.

    HWSNBN continues cluelessly:

    The purpose of my post was to smoke you out and make you justify what I consider to be an outrageous argument against free speech.

    Nah. I think the purpose was for HWSNBN to once more demonstrate for one an all what a useless piece of trash and endless source of bafflegab he is. Glenn has been nothing on this blog except clear an consistent. HWSNBN thinks he knows what Glenn's secretly thinking. HWSNBN is auditioning for the "thought police", methinks.

    Sez HWSNBN, who has on at least two occasions been forced to admit that he's mis-cited law:

    Any fool can make allegations, but a lawyer should be willing to back his up his legal allegations with actual law.

    Ummm, people making accusations should actually back up their accustations with fact, if not law. See above for HWSNBN's lapses in this regard.

    ReplyDelete
  142. I disagree. Often, the Left equates right with reason or "intellectual force." Human beings are not convinced by reason/logic alone. They are motivated for emotional and ethical reasons as well.

    And, again, the Left often equates intellect with the ethical. Just as the legal does not equal or translate into what's ethical, so reason in and of itself does not translate into the ethical.


    What exactly are you suggesting?

    "Intellectual force" is the ability of argument and persuasion to change someone's mind, to bring them around to your way of thinking. There is no other legitimate kind of force to change someone's mind.

    ReplyDelete
  143. HWSNBN needs a spell-checker:

    Ad hominem attacks and name calling are are not a substantive rebuttal.

    He misspelled "argumentum ad nausema" and "straw man", methinks. ;-)

    HTH.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous4:11 PM

    Our Canadian friends have some very good points. However, the 1st Amendment is far from the only difference between us and them. Commonwealth nations have very different systems regarding speech and rights. Look at Britain, with its thousands of cameras.

    And yet, they can suffer the same idiocy that plagues us. Look at Britain, with its thousands of cameras.

    Still, there is a point where "anybody can do/say anything" becomes "rich people can do/say anything." Rich people can put up gates and go to good hospitals and send their kids to good schools.

    We Americans have all but given up on the idea of a civil society.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous4:13 PM

    yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 2:12pm: "Then engage them on their own terms with substantive debate."

    And 'their own terms' are absolute rubbish, Bart, what then?


    Is it truly "rubbish?" If so, then it won't take you long to rebut their claim that the NYT committed treason, will it?

    Here is how you do it...

    List the elements of treason under the Constitution and under the subsequent federal criminal statute.

    You might also want to check out some of the case law which has interpreted the elements of treason. There really aren't that many and they are mostly post WWII cases.

    Here are some links to treatises on treason which break down the elements:

    http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/
    Treason&Tech.pdf

    http://www.constitution.org/cmt/jwh/
    jwh_treason_jr.htm

    Describe the facts of the case. Then, you can have a reasonable discussion about whether the facts prove or don't prove the elements of treason.

    Most on the right who are making this allegation have no idea what the actual law is. Whip out the law and find out whether they have a case or whether they need to be corrected.

    I think this is a closer case than you might believe at first blush.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous4:18 PM

    I think this is a closer case than you might believe at first blush.

    You think so, but you also think that torture is necessary, that congress cannot restrict the president's "executive" powers in any way, and that your obviously unconnected chains of inference amount to serious argument.

    Forgive me, my estimation of the quality of your judgement is not very high.

    If they had a case, we'd see the NYT travel editors prosecuted for treason, now wouldn't we?

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous4:21 PM

    According to Bart with his treason rubbish, the Pentagon Papers should never have been published, Nixon should never have faced impeachment (and should have served out his term), and his illegal spying and other activities should have remained hidden as legitimate state secrets.

    As I understand it, those are Cheney/Rumsfeld's arguments too. They are still steamed that their boss, ole Tricky Dick, was nailed for violating the law...all started because of the "treasonous" publishing of state secrets in the Pentagon Papers.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous4:30 PM

    From anonymous at 4:21 p.m.: "According to Bart with his treason rubbish, the Pentagon Papers should never have been published, Nixon should never have faced impeachment (and should have served out his term), and his illegal spying and other activities should have remained hidden as legitimate state secrets."

    Which suggests that the state is always to be trusted, and never suspect. If the state did wrong, it could be exposed, and punished (though it seems it would be difficult to expose if nothing about the state could be, well, exposed; and perhaps difficult to punish since the state controls the means of investigation, prosecution, and punishment). Luckily, the state doesn't do anything wrong, and luckily it is always to be trusted. There really is nothing to fear. All is well. Return to your homes.

    And still the question returns: what happened to conservatives? Remember them? Minimal government, stay outta my life?

    Personally, I think the last one died with Dwight D. Eisenhower. My parents, for example, still imagine that Eisenhower republicans exist, and that they are them.

    Perhaps the last dodo birds, or passenger pigeons felt the same.

    I remain baffled that there continues to be a segment of the population in this country that wants a king. A king, in the country famous for telling kings to go to hell.

    Rob

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous4:30 PM

    gran moff texan:

    Thanks for the link to the CRS brief on the protection of national security information. I'll check it out after I get back from court today.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous4:33 PM

    Sorry for double posting, but Anon 2:24, you are brilliant. I have been wanting to say what you said for days. Bart's got nothing left to say. Even his trusty talking points are a shadow of what they were.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous4:34 PM

    zenster666 says:

    Glenn asks what one would recommend in addition to exposing their unethical ways: complain to their paymasters. Kick them in their fee-based behinds. Call the networks. The right does this all the time and it evidently works. The so-called pundits who engage in this sort of behavior have some glaring weaknesses. Their scholarship and reasoning skills suck. Not to mention their abysmal lack of decorum and manners. Ann Coulter shouldn’t be able to walk away from her plagiarism and bad citizenship. I watched the MSM cable shows and whenever the NY Times SWIFT monitoring program story came up it always went to matters of wartime security and secrecy while nobody pointed out the obvious - the story was about a lack of oversight and accountability. Glenn highlighted that and he provides some of the ammo for the struggle. Stand up and fire away folks. Complain loudly and incessantly. And keep reading Glenn’s blog too.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous4:35 PM

    Inciting to riot or engaging in a conspiracy is not protected. At the very least, these guys ought to be liable for civil sanctions for endangerment, especially if something DOES happen, disclaimer or not. They abetted whoever does the act and incited the response.

    ReplyDelete
  153. bart: Most on the right who are making this allegation have no idea what the actual law is. Whip out the law and find out whether they have a case or whether they need to be corrected. ... I think this is a closer case than you might believe at first blush.

    Balderdash. The entire case is a dust storm raised to obscure the fact that the administration is trying to raise the fears and anxieties of a public that is increasingly growing sick and tired of its scare tactics.

    In the immortal words of Flip Wilson, "Here come da judge(s)!" and they've got kickass on their minds, ie, Hamdan v. Rumsfeld.

    So what sick-minded paranoia and political crap shoot are the Bushites up to? Consider the following from UofChicago constitutional law professor, Geoffrey Stone:

    The reason, to me, seems obvious. The lawyers in the administration knew they could not prove the existence of a danger sufficiently “clear,” “present,” and “grave” to justify an injunction [to stop publication of the "treasonous" bank surveillance story]. Rather than test the matter in a court of law, the administration sat passively on its hands and allowed the story to be published. Then, after–the–fact, it accuses the Times of disloyalty and browbeats the press with threats of a criminal prosecution. It makes one wonder exactly who is playing fast-and-loose with the truth – and with the nation’s security.

    See, Bart, it takes a scholar and a patriot to recognize treason when s/he sees it--and it does not sit on the editorial board of the NYTimes.

    ReplyDelete
  154. HWSNBN gets mixed up (for some strange reason) on what the roles is of a "criminal prosecutor"):

    [anonymous/Hume's Ghost]: They did not like that and reacted to it and now they are using the same sort of tactics and much worse, to silence what they deem as politcally incorrect speech. They just call it treason, defeatist, blah, blah.

    Then engage them on their own terms with substantive debate.

    If they describe the NYT disclosure to the enemy of the details of top secret intelligence programs targeting that enemy as "treason," then prove why such an act does not fall under the definition of treason.

    This is what's called "shifting the burden of proof". While a relatively minor faux pas -- a logical fallacy -- in debate, it's fatal in any legal dispute; unless the law itself specifies that the burden of proof has been shifted, it's simply "bad law" to argue for such, and would be laughed out of court by pretty much any judge of minimal competence.

    HWSNBN need some remedial work on "criminal prosecutin'"....

    [yankeependragon]: And 'their own terms' are absolute rubbish, Bart, what then?

    Is it truly "rubbish?"

    If so, then it won't take you long to rebut their claim that the NYT committed treason, will it?

    Here is how you do it...

    List the elements of treason under the Constitution and under the subsequent federal criminal statute.

    You might also want to check out some of the case law which has interpreted the elements of treason. There really aren't that many and they are mostly post WWII cases.

    Well, if HWSNBN had any integrity, that's what he'd do. Instead, he seems to insist that those accused of "treason" show cause why they should not be guilty as accused in some vague slime-mongering attack.

    Those who wish to defend against a charge of treason need do nothing until an actual sustainable charge, allegedly meeting the elements of treason, has been made and supported by evidence for each element.

    You know, eighth-grade civics ... something that ought to be 'old hat' to a "criminal prosecutor" like HWSNBN....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous4:46 PM

    Bart would have credibility if he were n't so predictable. He constantly lands on one side of the issues. Whatever Bush, Cheney, etc. think, Bart will think, argue incessantly for, not budge an inch, and not show that true hallmark of intelligence-something lacking in most if not all Republicans-flexibility.

    ReplyDelete
  156. HAIRHEAD - There are few things I find more irritating than Canadians who not only defend their speech-suppression laws as some sort of proof of their superiority, but who do so in the most snice, condescending way possible - as though prosecuting people for their political beliefs is the sign of a civilized culture rather than tyranny - and, worse, who revel in pure anti-American bigotry masquerading as some sort of enlightened liberalism:

    Equating Canada with Nazi Germany violates Godwin's, adds nothing to the debate and severely misrepresents the current political climate in Canada.

    I did nothing of the sort. Your fellow Canadian, whom you are defending, first raised the specter of Nazi Germany to make the point that the U.S. was becoming that because we don't put people in prison for their political views. In response, I pointed out that Nazi Germany - like all dictatorships - adopted laws banning certain forms of speech, just like Canada does. He (just like you do below) first compared the U.S. to Nazi Germany. Invoking Godwin's Law to decry that comparison when you yourself made it is really a bit much to stand.

    since you don't live in Canada and don't take part in the ongoing controversies we have in Canada regarding our "hate" laws.

    You actually don't know where I live. And even if it were true that I did not live in Canada, there's this thing now called the Internet which allows someone to know about what's happening in some physical place other than the one they are actually in. As a result, I'd be willing to venture that there are many people outside of Canada who know more about Candadian hate speech laws than those in Canada. So the fact that you live in Canada does not establish your credentials as some sort of expert in any way.

    The odd thing is, as much as Americans do have an absolute right of free speech, a diminishing proportion of you seem free to exercise it, preferring instead to parrot or to be intimidated by the powerful right-wing media in your country.

    How odd, then, that a decisive majority of Americans reject and disapprove of the Bush presidency and only a small and shrinking minority approve of it. That's a very bizarre fact for a country whose people "prefer instead to parrot or to be intimidated by the powerful right-wing media."

    And last I checked, Canada didn't exactly have a left-wing government in place.

    Likewise, you seem to assume that our judiciary is as slavish to the explicit political goals of the party who appointed them as are the members of your Supreme and Appeals Courts.

    Great point - for instance, our U.S. Supreme Court this week just ruled that President Bush's military commissions in Guantanamo Bay are perfectly legal. They obviously did so because - as you say - American judges (unlike superior Canadian judges) are so "slavish to the explicit political goals of the party who appointed them."

    Regarding the basic argument against hate speech, though, the Nazis remain a perfect example of how unregulated and unopposed speech, specifically that highlighting the supposed perfidy and inferiority of the Jews is part and parcel of the road to an intransigent and murderous dictatorship.

    Every dictatorship - every single one - eventually enacts laws like the ones in Canada criminalizing free speech, based on the pompous and self-loving premise that those enacting the laws are so Wise and Just that they actually are able and qualified to simply declare certain opinions off limits.

    It is a fact that lies and threats, repeated constantly, do have an effect upon people's actions, up to the point where they visit murderous violence upon their neighbours, or condone such.

    Sure. The point is that you are in no position to decide what constitutes Bad Opinions. For example, I think a lot of your opinions are Bad, False and Dangerous. If I had the power to criminalize certain opinions based on your reasoning, I very well might begin with yours. I almost certainly would get to yours eventually. Why people like you always assume that the anti-speech laws which you crave will only be imposed by you, rather than on you, is a real mystery.

    As a matter of lsw, the "hate" speech law is written so specifically that it would be virtually impossible, absent an existing dictatorship, to make it apply to any broad range of political opinion or dissent.

    Tell that to the poor Canadian citizens who have been prosecuted for expressing the opinion that homosexuality is immoral - an opinion, misguided though it may be, that is a tenet of all three major world relgions and has been embraced by vast majorities of human beings for more than 2,000 years. But now, if you express that opinion in Canada, you're a criminal. Maybe next year, Canada will decide that some other viewspoints - such as anti-American rhetoric of the type you are spewing, or lots of anti-Christianity rhetoric that I often hear from good enlightened souls like you - is "hateful". It sounds hateful to me, to be honest. If we are going to criminalize hateful opinions, I really can't imagine why you think your opinion will be immune. It shouldn't be.

    But accusing Canada of a Nazi sensibility when your the political establishment of your own country is measurably further down that path, in word, in action, and in philosophy, . . .

    You began your post by decrying how wrong and unjust it was - Godwin's law and all that - to compare Canada to Nazi Germany. You ended your post by comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany. You do realize that, right?

    what to do with these intimidators who unethically abuse the power given to them by Free Speech?

    That's easy. We should take anyone whose opinions we dislike or think are hateful and just throw them in prison. Everyone knows that's what all good, free, superior socieities do.

    ReplyDelete
  157. arne langsetmo said:

    He misspelled "argumentum ad nausema" and "straw man", methinks. ;-)

    Oooops. I need a spell-checker. That should be "nauseam".

    Mea culpa.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous5:00 PM

    I have an idea.

    Since bart is so convinced of the soundness of his case, why doesn't he offer his services pro bono to the administration? Jurisdiction doesn't matter, there's plenty background work for an experienced lawyer to do; if nothing else, he could organize a bake sale (the government's a little short lately...)

    I know he's needed sorely on the blog commenting front, but a treasonous information war by the NYT Travelofascists is a serious threat to our Rumsfelds that must be met.

    Don't shirk your duty, loudmouth.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous5:04 PM

    Glenn... Yes, it's clearly protected speech, for the reasons I stated above. Not all despicable things are illegal, and not all legal things are virtuous.

    On of my favorite professors used to say (iirc), "There are a variety of elements to the law that are morally ambiguous."

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous5:07 PM

    From Bart at 4:13pm:

    "Here is how you do it..."

    Actually, its encumbent upon *you* to prove your case against the Times.

    We're all waiting for a clear, coherent agrument as to how these articles in any way, shape or form constitute outright "treason", complete with clear evidence of intent.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous5:14 PM

    Careful Glenn, about using the SCROTUS ruling on Hamdi and the military tribunals as a rebuttal to the Canadian about their judges. The 5-3 ruling against WOULD have been a 5-4 ruling if Roberts hadn't recused. He recused only because he was explicitly asked about it before getting his appointment and kind of trapped himself. Further, if Kennedy goes, we will get another Alito and then any future rulings will run exactly counter to your point. The SCROTUS WILL rule in favor of the GOP, almost no matter what, but certain on all things "Unitary Executive".

    Pure happenstance that we got a nice 5-3 ruling rather than a hair-thin 5-4. We're one heart attack away (or retirement) from 5-4 rulings in the other direction. The current SCROTUS, given the current political layout, is not a model to praise.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous5:21 PM

    Hairhead...But I can give some information to readers here who may otherwise surmise, from your comparison of Canada to Germany in 1934, that Canada is on the verge of some kind of socialist dictatorship.


    Oh come on man! Everyone knows Canada was a socialist Dictatorship! Thank God and george Bush for Canada's finally stepping away from the edge of socialist precipice. Now it's well on it's way to becoming a fascist dictatorship, like Nazi Germany and now Harper's new buddy, Georger Bush and the U.S.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Desert Son said...

    From anonymous at 4:21 p.m.: "According to Bart with his treason rubbish, the Pentagon Papers should never have been published, Nixon should never have faced impeachment (and should have served out his term), and his illegal spying and other activities should have remained hidden as legitimate state secrets."

    Which suggests that the state is always to be trusted, and never suspect.


    Unless a Democrat is in office having consensual (heterosxual) sex with some adult other than his or her spouse.

    Do you miss Monica yet? I sure as hell do.

    I Miss Monica

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous5:29 PM

    major

    Do you mean "viscous" attacks? Because that would be funny.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous5:31 PM

    Is it truly "rubbish?" If so, then it won't take you long to rebut their claim that the NYT committed treason, will it?

    Well, since the info had already been made available by the Bush/Cheney 2004 campaign, the Dept. of the Treasury, and in a Dec. 2002 report to the UNSC (which is STILL on the UN website) then they don't have a claim so there's nothing to rebut.

    The ONLY thing that keeps this non-story going is the political desperation of the American right.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  166. Yes we must be alert to the dangers of excessive viscosity. I feel its getting thicker by the minute!

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous5:33 PM

    Glenn at 4:51 p.m.: Out-fucking-standing.

    A successful defense of freedom must therefore be dogmatic. And make no concessions to expediency, even when it is not possible to show that, besides the known beneficial effects, some particular harmful result would also follow from its infringement. Freedom will prevail only if it is accepted as a general principle whose application to particular instances requires no justification.

    F.A. Hayek
    Law, Legislation and Liberty

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous5:37 PM

    If you treat this country as the enemy and consistintly undermine our troops in harms way your going to have to face your consequences.

    We have done neither and you know it.

    Your kind continually hide behind such accusations because you don't have the guts to admit what you've done to this country and to our men and women in uniform.

    You have to manufacture a left that 'hates the troops' (up to and including Malkin falsifying a video) to hide the fact that you've sent them to die in the middle of nowhere for nothing. Just another part of your fantasy world.

    We do not attack this country, we attack the parasites who're looting this country and the people who're dumb enough to fall for their phony GOD GUNS AND GAYS!!! diversionary tactics. You're just stupid enough to be used against your own country. I'd call you a fifth column, but you're not even that smart. You're nothing but a weak link.

    All caught up, now?

    As for "consequences," bring it.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Major:

    Nobody on the right wants to see innocent people hurt or killed that goes without saying.

    Bullshit, you know that. You guys actually want to harm anyone who disagrees with your fascism-promoting activities. Next time, don't kid us. We're not that gullible like you.

    Allow me post Jesus' famous sermon, which I'm sure you'd love to stab him to death if he were here to tell you:

    "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22:36-40

    And yet you guys (conservatives) consistently broke God's Laws. Go figure.

    Major:

    If you treat this country as the enemy and consistintly undermine our troops in harms way your going to have to face your consequences.

    Like what Grand Moff Texan said: we have done neither and you know it.

    As I said above, Major, quit bullshiting around.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Major -

    Are you ill? Taking some manner of medication?

    I have difficulty believing anyone with a braining firing on all cylinders would express themselves this way.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous5:54 PM

    When you are physically attacked, you have the right--even the responsibility--to respond in kind.

    Not according to M. Gandhi. And he managed quite a lot.

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous5:56 PM

    Anger and hate sure make us stupid. When I first saw the post about printing the reporters address etc. I went over to Rocco Whoevers site and was going to look up his home address etc.

    Kind of like - if you're going to doing it than see how it feels. Well he's got a picture of himself, standing in front of his house with his address and phone number printed.

    When I saw this I thought - Why am I going down to his level? I'm better than this. I just hope no one gets hurt because of the hatred being spewed about.

    I do think I'll blow a call into him however.

    Peace

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous5:57 PM

    Major:

    There's nothing wrong with warning liberals that they should be careful because if they don't something bad might happen so they should clean up there act. That's just friendly advice. I've said the same thing here. But you all get all pissy because you think somebody's threatening you. Nobody's threatening you were just warning you for your own good and if you are smart you'll take our advice.

    Wow.

    "It sure is a nice store you have here. You should buy some insurance for it. In case, you know. Something happens to it. Fires happen, you know.

    "Vito, stop playing with that lighter while I'm talking to the nice man. Go out to the car and get me the sign-up forms.

    "What was I saying? Oh, yeah. It's a nice store. It'd be a shame if it burned down..."

    What gall it takes to post to a thread talking about perceived threats and eliminationism with a reply that evokes the Corleones...

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous6:01 PM

    Equating Canada with Nazi Germany violates Godwin's, adds nothing to the debate and severely misrepresents the current political climate in Canada.

    Godwin's Law is rendered anachronistic and quaint when an American president thinks torture is a good idea and the Constitution and Bill of Rights are anachronistic and quaint. It always was a bunch of horseshit if you aske me. As Greg Erwin, a contemporary of Godwin used to say:

    ... As long as you continue to tar social democracy with all the crimes of communism, I feel equally entitled to tar the free market with the crimes of slavery, segregation, colonialism and genocide; piss me off and I'll add fascism and the Nazis.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous6:03 PM

    Anonymous @ 5:57,

    We can't be sure, (it's impossible to tell these days), but the Major just may be a parody. It's gotten so you can't tell the jokes from the jokers. :)

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous6:05 PM

    It is only in the last 6 months or so that threads about American fasicsts aren't immediately derailed by the inevitable Godwin invocation, or so it seems to me.

    Back in '99, "calling Godwin" was an easy (and funny) rhetorical score. In 2005, it was continually mucking up serious online political debate.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Anonymous said...
    When you are physically attacked, you have the right--even the responsibility--to respond in kind.

    Not according to M. Gandhi. And he managed quite a lot.

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."


    Even the Jews in the Polish ghetto gave up on that idea. Of course, the British empire was less interested in genocide than the Nazis, and Ghandi had the numbers to take the passive resistance route. Modern times probably won't cut it, sadly.

    I suggest you read this and this.

    ReplyDelete
  178. From Secrecy News:

    ...Mr. Bennett was wrong and Ms. Priest was correct: There is no comprehensive statute that outlaws the publication of classified information.

    (As Ms. Priest went on to explain, there are several narrow categories of classified information, such as communications intelligence, covert agent identities, and a few others that are protected by statute.)

    A new report (pdf) from the Congressional Research Service describes the legal framework governing the disclosure and publication of classified national security information.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous6:13 PM

    Godwin is a right wing libertarian. Had something to do with founding the EFF, I think.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous6:16 PM

    I'd bet Godwin himself wouldn't invoke his own law these days wrt such discussion about this administration.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Bennett's reading has been limited of late to "winning systems for Blackjack" and such. He was always a fat hack.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous6:20 PM

    On the subject of criminal and civil liability, I think you confuse the issue here, Glenn. You say that incitements to violence are protected. This is clearly the case, and no one is saying that any winger writing "I think so and so committed treason, and if the gov't won't do anything about it, we should" is a violation. This isn't politcal speech, though. It's aiding and abetting, and it's a blatant breach of a physical sanctum and, as you point out, a threat of violence on the targets home, regardless of the disclaimers that the aider might slap on. Any way you slice it, it still functions as a type of assault on a person's home and safety. The intent, whatever the admonitions, is to create apprehension in the target and this speech succeeds in doing that every time.

    Think about it in the context of the Black ruling a few years back. The distinction in Black was that the allegedly protect speech--the burning cross--represented a physical threat and means of intimidation to the target's home and safety. Now granted, the actual symbol of the cross was of particular importance. But say KKK members showed up at another judge's house and put a picture of Lefkow on her law. Or say they published the address and wrote "let's do this like Lefkow." I'm not sure the actual cross signifier carries so much importance that one could not extend the logic of protecting the target against threatening speech to cover these cases.

    Furthermore, just pass a law. Call it the Lefkow law. And then let the wingers challenge the Lefkow law in federal court. I like our chances. And I'd say it's the right thing to do. I am not objecting to content. I'm objecting to the aiding and abetting aspect--means rather than motive. All this is probably strengthened greatly if the target has an address and phone number that is unlisted, but the ACLU can make that part of their standard protocol if need be.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous6:20 PM

    David Weigel at Reason just last year.

    Hands Off Hitler!
    It's time to repeal Godwin's Law

    ReplyDelete
  184. Furthermore, just pass a law. Call it the Lefkow law.

    I think the reflex that says that the solution to any problem is to pass a law against it is unsound. It is, after all how we ended up with jail cells crammed full of non-violent offenders.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous6:29 PM

    Bart in 20 years, fatter, fascister and as stupid as ever. Somebody this pasty should be familiar with bleach.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous6:32 PM

    PhD9 said...
    Furthermore, just pass a law. Call it the Lefkow law.

    I think the reflex that says that the solution to any problem is to pass a law against it is unsound. It is, after all how we ended up with jail cells crammed full of non-violent offenders.


    I think he's talking about a strategy that already worked with Tom Metzger and WAR. But I guess you have to wait for someone to die.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous6:44 PM

    The Major
    said...

    It's disgusting the way leftists react to criticism. Instead of thanking the adviser and trying to be a better person they accuse me of being stupid and crazy and liar


    I have only accused you of being somewhat overexposed, like Brittany Spears, and subjecting us to increasingly bad parody, a charge you have yet to answer.

    ReplyDelete
  188. The Major said:

    Sometimes I wonder why I bother comeing here and trying to explain how things work in this country since nobody treats me with even any respect at all.

    To respond:

    That is precisely why.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Glenn, I agree with you completely. One of the things that it brings to mind for me is the abortion debate. I'm sure that there are abortions performed that I would find morally repugnant... but sometimes you have to let people do things that you abhor, because outlawing them is (or at least should be) even more abhorrent. You don't try to restrict the rights of everyone to try to correct the behavior of a few.

    Who was it who said "a free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular"? It was a wise saying, because the price of freedom is tolerance.

    I don't like Coulter, or Limbaugh, or Malkin... but anyone who knows anything about me knows that I want them to be marginalized as a result of the perfect understanding of what they are and what they do. They should be horrifically unpopular... but perfectly safe.

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous6:53 PM

    Sometimes I wonder why I bother comeing here and trying to explain how things work in this country

    So do we.

    If conservatives threaten liberals which doesn't happen but if it did it would only be because we're scared for our safety.

    Please show us where your safety has been threatened.

    Instead of thanking the adviser and trying to be a better person they accuse me of being stupid and crazy and liar.

    Thanks for clearing that up. We don't need a moral compass as long as you're around. Do you think that your superior to people here?

    If so, you're helping Glenn make his case.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous6:57 PM

    Sometimes I wonder why I bother comeing here and trying to explain how things work in this country since nobody treats me with even any respect at all.

    This is the internet, crybaby. Compared to most forums, people on this blog are downright gentile.

    ReplyDelete
  192. Anonymous6:59 PM

    I can't believe you guys got roped in by "The Major". If you bother to check out his blog, you will see that he is either a) a spoof or b) a mentally unstable conservative.

    Either way, he doesn't merit any kind of serious response.

    ReplyDelete
  193. Anonymous7:01 PM

    folks, I visited the Major's site, and he/she is either quite crazy, or he/she is having a hell of a good time with his/her parody of a true wingnut (maybe he/she is channeling Ann Coulter). Anyway, his/her MO is to bragg endlessly on his/her site about how he/she comes to Glenn's site to troll......this is one case of really truly needing to ignore his/her posts--it only encourages his/her ravings.

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous7:02 PM

    Furthermore, just pass a law. Call it the Lefkow law.

    I think the reflex that says that the solution to any problem is to pass a law against it is unsound. It is, after all how we ended up with jail cells crammed full of non-violent offenders.

    That's a poor analogy. If you were speaking specifically about, for instance, drug users who also provided means for their dealers to commit violent crimes, I'd be with you. But if you are interested, argue the merits. Why is a burning cross on someone's law an impermissable threat, but publication of a private person's address, but the publication of (helping my hypo) the person's information is otherwise not publicly available, i.e. not listed, and accompanied by an allegation of a heinous and capital crime and an incitement to violence against the target?

    I see a distinction in terms of physical space, but then that kind of ignores the whole "internet" part of the equation. I could see distinctions based on the lengths to which the publisher of the information went to get it, but I see virtually no distinction in terms of the effect of the speech, which seemed to form the basis of the court's opinion in Black. The goal is to cause the target to feel threatened and that goal is always achieved.

    ReplyDelete
  195. Anonymous7:03 PM

    StoptheACLU.org has removed the addresses and tele no., and now posts:

    To All Liberal Lovin' ACLU Lefties:

    You may think you have gained the upper hand by the removal of this previous page's content. I assure you that is not only not the case but we will be doing many other things to annoy you and tell you the truth about the ACLU.

    It was suggested, NOT compelled or mandated, by our legal counsel to delete the content and thus take this page out of your arsenal.


    Amusingly, no lawyer can compel or mandate his client to do anything -- more's the pity. But that silliness aside, while I do not think any suit against the site could or should have ultimately been successful simply for publishing the address and telephone numbers of controversial litigants, merely defending such a suit would be incredibly expensive, especially in federal court where such a suit would likely land. That's what I'd tell my client -- keep it posted if you want to run the minimal risk that the case would not be dismissed on the law, and the big risk of spending a fortune defending it even that far or further.

    ReplyDelete
  196. Anonymous7:03 PM

    To the major:

    Subscription to National Review: $29.50

    Starting you own blog:
    Free

    Believing those two things constitute the ability to think critically:
    Priceless

    Put some real boots on son!
    1-800-GOARMY

    ReplyDelete
  197. Anonymous7:06 PM

    Mr. Greenwald

    At no time did I give unqualified support to my country's "hate" laws. In fact, I said that the goal of protecting minorities from abuse had NOT been reached and that our govenment have NOT yet proven that the benefits of the laws have exceeded the negatives.

    That's pretty far from supporting the law. I acknowledged that our law existed, I pointed out the dangers of it, and its limitations. And as I said more than once, the debate continues in our country.

    As to not knowing the Canadian political situation, though the Internet does give you a lot of information, you have been spending a lot of time writing and promoting your excellent book, and it is simply not physically possible for you to be as informed as a Canadian on our laws, traditions and our zeitgeist. And I remain in that same bind as regards America, though I do my best to remedy that.

    As for our current federal government, our "conservative" is your "wild-eyed liberal". Our federal government supports, amongst other things, our universal (but sick) medical care system, our "socialist" transfer payments between provinces and such, and many other programs and principles which are anathema to a large portion of the American public.

    I didn't like the muzzling of the homo-haters either; I find the public ridicule they are subject to to be more effective in marginalizing them.

    As for the part about Americans not expressing themselves, I too, have the internet, and I correspondence extensively with a lot of Americans, and a substantial number do seem less free of their speech. And though polls indicate a disagreement of the American populace with its Administration (thank godness), they have not expressed that in the extremely important form of speech -- speech at the polls. And by that measure, to this date, Americans have not spoken as freely in public as they do in private, to pollsters.

    The Hamdan case passed on the side of the angels by a whisker. Any other vacancy in the next two years will be filled with an authoritarian who will without doubt, having been extensively vetted by the administration, rule in favour of dictatorship by fiat. And the lower courts are filled with these type people, appointment to the federal courts having been the bailwick of the Republicans since 1994. Your senior judiciary is severly compromised right now.

    Finally, as the U.S. is the only country I know of with an absolutist right to free speech, your wholehearted condemnation of Canada's goverment for having a hate speech law in place leaves us in the company of another 200 countries or so who have laws governing speech. Numbers do not make right, of course, but damning me and my government with a vehemence suitable to be applied to, say, a regime which actually tortures people, locks them up indefinitely without charge, censors the press and jails journalists makes you look careless.

    We're on your side in this, Mr. Greenwald. I support you and almost all of the other posters here in your fight to educate the American polity on the abuses perpetrated upon you by the Bush Administration and the Rubber-stamp Republicans.

    And I did do one thing more germane to your original post: you asked for solutions and I in all sincerity I proposed two. Any comment on those?

    ReplyDelete
  198. Anonymous7:23 PM

    Reynolds also collaborates amiably with others who do this kind of thing, eg his Pajamas colleague, Jeff Goldstein, whose multiple invasions of the privacy of people who've angered him have achieved a certain modest notoriety. Al this evidently is contemplated without disapprobation by Reynolds & his co-thinkers.

    ReplyDelete
  199. Anonymous7:26 PM

    bart said...

    I'll check it out after I get back from court today.

    --

    Oh, what crime are you charged with this time?

    ReplyDelete