Following up on yesterday's post regarding Arlen Specter's complete (and hardly unexpected) cave-in to the administration on the NSA scandal, it is now clear that the bill does not have an express amnesty provision in it (see Update II). But every other possible bad thing can and should be said about this bill. Marty Lederman has an excellent and very thorough statutory analysis of the whole travesty, explaining that Specter "introduces a bill, with Administration blessing, that gives the Administration everything it ever wanted, and much, much more."
Jack Balkin's post is also very much worth reading, in which he concludes: "Barely two weeks after Hamdan, which appeared to be the most important separation of powers decision in our generation, the Executive is about to get back everything it lost in that decision, and more."
In essence, Specter's bill repeals each and every restriction on the President's ability to eavesdrop, all but forecloses judicial challenges, and endorses the very theory of unlimited executive power which Hamdan just days ago rejected (and in the process, rendered the administration's FISA-prohibited eavesdropping on Americans a clear violation of the criminal law). With this bill, Specter -- the self-proclaimed defender of Congressional power -- did more to bolster the administration's radical executive power theories than anything the administration could have dreamed of doing on their own, especially in the wake of Hamdan (permit me here to apologize for all of those times I tepidly defended Specter by characterizing as unduly pessimistic and cynical predictions that he could cave completely; the humiliations he is willing, even eager, to publicly endure are without limits).
The question now is what Democrats (who, by the way, still have filibuster power) are willing to do about this. Here is Lederman's suggestion:
I hope this bill is the non-starter that it deserves to be. If so, allow me to make one more plea here: Everyone behind the Schumer bill, please! Let's get the question of NSA legality before the Supreme Court right now, and after that we can worry about how to amend FISA in a responsible manner sensitive to changing needs, such as perhaps along the lines of the models suggested by David Kris or in Jane Harman's bill.
More important than the legislative question, in my view, is what the Democrats are willing to do about this politically. It should not be hard, even for them, to make the case that everyone is in favor of eavesdropping. The only question is whether (a) George Bush should be able to eavesdrop on Americans in secret and with no oversight, or (b) George Bush can eavesdrop on Americans, but only with a requirement of judicial oversight - a requirement which every President, without complaint, has complied with for the last 30 years, including Ronald Reagan at the height of the Cold War.
With just the smallest amount of resolve and message discipline, they can easily convey that this is not a debate about whether to eavesdrop on Al Qaeda -- everyone is for that -- but is about whether George Bush should have the power to eavesdrop on Americans with no oversight, an awesome power which this country overwhelmingly decided 30 years ago, in the wake of decades of abuses, that we do not trust the President -- any President -- to have. This is yet another long-standing safeguard against abuses of executive power which the Bush administration is uprooting -- in the process, changing the kind of nation we are.
Polls uniformly show that Americans are concerned about unchecked one-party rule and want a restoration of accountability and balance. This is the perfect debate for Democrats to have, to finally articulate why this country should turn over one or both of the houses of Congress to them. The case needs to be made that what is needed in this country is a counterweight to the corruption and excesses which come from having the President's party control all parts of government and thereby allow the President to exercise power without limits. Providing that balance, that check on one-party rule, is what Democrats can do best and even reach agreement on amongst themselves. They can provide oversight and limits on the Government's conduct and on the Republicans' unchecked abuses of power.
Isn't that what Democrats want to convince Americans they will do if they win in November? And what better issue to illustrate that intention than this Republican effort to radically change how our Government spies on us? The genius Democratic consultants, joined by the genius Beltway journalists at The New Republic and on cable shows, will, of course, counsel oh-so-knowingly, and oh-so-worriedly, that Democrats should stay away from opposing this bill because (as always) they'll be doing Karl Rove such a big favor by allowing him to portray Democrats as opposing eavesdropping on terrorists, by shifting the debate to the Republican's strongest ground of terrorism, and every other prong of conventional wisdom that gets trotted out during these discussions to urge Democrats not to stand in the way of what the President wants. And Republican pundits and strategists will, as always, echo this theme, boasting that they are eager for Democrats to oppose them on this because nothing could help Republicans more than if they do, etc. etc.
But all of that can happen only if Democrats fail to resolutely stand up for themselves and articulate what is really at stake here. If they do, they can make this issue about what it really, in fact, is about: (a) do we want the President to be able spy on us in secret and with no limits or safeguards, as we had before 1978 with great abuse?; and (b) do we really need to abolish the long-standing safeguards which, as a country, we imposed on our Government in order to prevent abuses, all because George Bush claims he can't defeat Al Qaeda unless we fundamentally change how our government works, allow him to spy on us without oversight, and give him unchecked power?
It is critical to note that the radical change here is the one the Republicans are advocating. They want to abolish long-standing limits -- which were supported by a consensus of Republicans and Democrats alike (FISA was approved by a Senate vote of 95-1) -- on how our Government spies on us. This is yet another fundamental change to our Government designed to give more unchecked power to George Bush, this time in how he spies on our conversations. Most Democrats haven't been able to get themselves to engage that debate as of yet (see, for instance, the extremely short list of co-sponsors for Russ Feingold's Censure Resolution), but if they aren't willing to do that now, when will they? And if they aren't willing to convince Americans that some safeguards and checks are needed on Republican power, what reason do they plan on giving Americans as to why they should win in November?
UPDATE: The media's reports on this travesty illustrate, yet again, that the single greatest problem our country faces -- the principal reason the Bush administration has been able to get away with the abuses it has perpetrated -- is because our national media is indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunctional and just plain stupid, for reasons discussed in this comment from Jao and my response.
The reporters who write on these matters literally don't understand the issues they are reporting, even though the issues are not all that complicated. Notwithstanding the fact that this bill expressly removes all limits on the President's eavesdropping powers -- and returns the state of the law regarding presidential eavesdropping to the pre-FISA era, when there were no limits on presidential eavesdropping of any kind -- Charles Babington and Peter Baker told their readers in The Washington Post -- in an article hilariously entitled: "Bush Compromises On Spying Program" -- that "the deal represented a clear retreat by Bush" and that "the accord is a reversal of Bush's position that he would not submit his program to court review."
Anyone with a basic understanding of what FISA was and of the conflicts in play could read the Specter bill and see that the last thing it does is entail "compromises" on the part of the White House. Nobody who knows how to read could read that bill and think that. At this point, I believe they don't even read the bill. It's hard to see how they could read the bill and then write that article. Instead, it seems that they just call their standard sources on each side, go with the White House-Specter assessment that this is some grand "compromise" on the ground that it is a joint view of both warring sides, and then throw in a cursory ACLU quote somewhere at the end just to be able to say that they included some opposing views. But the reporters who are writing about this - and I mean the ones writing in the pages of our country's most important newspapers - don't actually have any idea what they're talking about.
Babington is the same reporter who falsely told his readers on the front page of the Post in March that the Republican "compromise" bill from the Senate Intelligence Committee (offered in lieu of an actual investigation into the NSA program) entailed substantial Congressional oversight of the program, even though a quick reading of the actual bill would have revealed that it entailed no such oversight. Representatives from Sen. DeWine and Snowe's office apparently told him what great oversight their bill provided and so he printed as fact what he was told.
After bloggers pointed out this error, the Post, several days later, was forced to issue a correction (appended to the top of the original article). But the same thing that happened there is happening here - Republican Senators and White House representatives with a vested interest in how the story gets reported characterize the bill in a certain way, and then lazy, uninformed reporters like Babington uncritically regurgitate that version as fact in the newspaper.
As Jao observed in his comment, the damage here is that it becomes conventional wisdom that this bill is now some sort of "compromise" on the part of the White House, such that beltway journalists and other types will simply assume that it's some sort of moderate, middle-of-the-road result which only extremists and obstructionists would oppose. The reality, of course, is the opposite: this bill bolsters the President's theories of unlimited executive power beyond Dick Cheney's wildest dreams. But the media, as is so often the case, fails in its duty to inform Americans as to what the Government is actually doing, which then prevents anything from actually being done about it. For every instance of presidential abuse of power or profound policy failure over the last five years, that dynamic is a major cause.
It is time to write Nanncy Pelosi and Harry Reid to let them know that if they are unable to lead properly in this issue, that there is little reason for THEIR version of an opposition party to exist.
ReplyDeleteHow can our Democracy be coming to this? Six years to end the rule of law in this country - who'd have ever thunk it?
Glenn has laid out the potential gift that this bill gives us; the ability to argue long and hard during a filibuster, that we support eavestropping on terrorists but with judicial oversight . That will overwhlemingly resonate with voters and will make clear the authoritarian nature of the current regime.
If the American people (other than Dean's 23% blind followers) don't overwhelmingly support Dems on this if it is clearly articulated, then American constitutional government is truly gone.
Shooter, Democrats are (listen carefully now) NOT against eavesdropping. What they are against is a president acting like he doesnt have to answer for his illegal actions while requiring that everyone else do so. I think you are smart enough I dont have to provide examples.
ReplyDeleteWho does Arlen Spector think he is to overturn 300 hundred years of precedence? There are only a few things we as Americans should ever be absolutist about, and the rule of law and the separation of powers are two of them. The key, as Glenn so rightly points out, is the bravery of Democrats to stand up for this essential, bedrock principle: We are a nation of laws which apply to everyone, including the president. This is a Constitutional question for the Supreme Court to decide, not the secret FISA Court. I'm ashamed to say Spector is my senator.
ReplyDeleteBut no, Democrats just want to use a 30 year old process to bash Bush. It's obvious you aren't interested in the country, just yourselves.
ReplyDeleteThe bill isn't 30 years old. It was amended in October, 2001 to make every change requested by the President.
And when it was amended, the President told the country that he now has the tools he needs under FISA to engage in surveillance necessary against the modern terrorist.
Why would the President say that if it weren't true?
Shooter242...This is still either/or.
ReplyDeleteIt's called a false dichotomy, Shooter. And then he persists in his binary world view.
"If Democrats are serious about the WOT, blah, blah, blah..."
Shooter, even modern AI is more capable of analog thought than you. Fuzzy logic doesn't imply warm and fuzzy like the teddy bear you sleep with. Go away. Mean IQ around here drops 140 points when one of you troglodytes shows up.
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ReplyDeleteObvious you aren't interested in the country, just yourselves.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this "country" of which you speak? Is it not a collection of individuals bound together by their devotion and allegiance to The Constitution of the United States? As such, we care very deeply about our country. You...perhaps not so much.
Shooter...Consider that FISA has such a sterling record of granting warrants, not because they are lenient, but because it is so difficult to get through layers of bureaucracy and the court will ruin a career if the application is not perfect.
ReplyDeleteWho could have guessed after all the whining and whinging about
"big gubmint bureaucracy" that Shooter and his anti-statist ilk have really been arguing for a return to the unitary executive. Call a spade a spade. You guys really wanted a monarchy all along.
Shooter... Is that what you would prefer to have, a court so restrictive and fearsome that agencies prefer to avoid doing their job rather than take a chance on a misstep?
ReplyDeleteThis is the funniest thing I have read yet. It's early, though.
August 6, 2001 PDB. Not funny.
Bush agrees to have domestic eavesdropping program reviewed
ReplyDeleteBy having the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court conduct the review instead of a regular federal court, the Bush administration would ensure the secrecy of details of the highly classified program. The administration has argued that making details of the program public would compromise national security.
In a policy reversal, President Bush has agreed to sign legislation allowing a secret federal court to assess the constitutionality of his warrantless domestic eavesdropping program, a senior Republican senator announced Thursday.
However, such details could include politically explosive disclosures that the government has kept tabs on people it shouldn't have been monitoring.
This article contains a sentence that provokes an important question.
ReplyDeleteThe administration has argued that making details of the program public would compromise national security.
However, such details could include politically explosive disclosures that the government has kept tabs on people it shouldn't have been monitoring.
Just who shouldn’t the this administration monitor?
After all, if they view their political opponents as threats to national security, aren’t they obligated to monitor them? Of course they should.
All Democratic Party operatives and prominent liberals should be monitored, because if the Democrats take control of Congress that will impede President Bush’s ability to fight the war on terror, thereby jeopardizing national security.
So, in effect, if someone is monitored – they should, by definition be monitored. (“The President is always right.”) And all of this information should be directed to Karl Rove to use against them politically, to help formulate and conduct campaigns, and to ensure the permanency of Republican control of all branches of government.
Any Democratic gains threaten our national security, and therefore must be stopped. This administration should spy on its political enemies – and it should use every means necessary to keep them out of control.
However, if the Democrats were in control, and Paul Begala was in the White House conducting operations against Republicans, the idea of him having access to all of their personal information – bank accounts, medical records, e-mails and phone calls – would be outrageous and a total abuse of power.
That’s why with these new powers, the Democrats must never win elections again. Right?
The administration doesn’t need this sort of secrecy and lack of oversight to monitor Al Qaeda and terrorists – but it does need it to monitor its political enemies (who are viewed as a greater threat than Al Qaeda), and it does need these powers to maintain political control of government.
Imagine if every type of high level communication of the Kerry campaign had been monitored... Imagine that. How explosive would that be?
ReplyDeleteShooter...? Shooter...?
ReplyDelete:::crickets:::
The mean average IQ is rising sharply.
Supreme Court deals Congress four aces.
ReplyDeleteSpecter's response: "I raise, and I fold."
I love how Shooter jumps to his own conclusions vis vis the laptop and the flying lessons:
ReplyDeleteConsider that FISA has such a sterling record of granting warrants, not because they are lenient, but because it is so difficult to get through layers of bureaucracy and the court will ruin a career if the application is not perfect.
That's what happened to FBI supervisor Resnick and led to FBI inaction regarding Moussaoui's laptop, and the flying lesson info.
That difficulty stifled investigations that may have prevented 9/11.
Any sourcing for that, Shooter? Cause I thought it might just be an example of classic bureaucratic SNAFU aided and abetted by bad leadership with misguided priorites.
But I am willing to look at any evidence you have.
And what friggin power would the FISA court review process have to "...ruin a career..." for submitting an imperfect request for a warrant? And where the hell are you getting this stuff?
On an even worse note, I was reminded of Bart's oft repeated mantra that the whistle blowers in re: NSA wiretapping and other scandals are hurting successful anti-terror programs by this article, in which is "...made the disturbing allegation that interrogators broke an Iraqi general, Hamid Zabar, by imprisoning and abusing his ... 16-year-old son."
It was successful, but who cares. I do not want this to be the way my country behaves.
The administration doesn’t need this sort of secrecy and lack of oversight to monitor Al Qaeda and terrorists – but it does need it to monitor its political enemies (who are viewed as a greater threat than Al Qaeda), and it does need these powers to maintain political control of government.
ReplyDeletePrecisely. Democrats should be hammering that theme for all it's worth, say's Thom Hartmann What other possible reason would the Bushies have to keep this all a secret, all the while proclaiming they don't eavesdrop without warrants? My fear is they will not do so because of whatever dirt the program turned up on the Dems. It is the only thing that explains away their cowardice, their inability to fight for their own survival, or to fight for any advantage at all in the political arena.
Glenn...What will Democrats do in the wake of the Specter cave-in?
ReplyDeleteShooter... [I]t shouldn't be too hard to come up with a solution to intelligence gathering with some sort of oversight that fits current technology...
We've come a long way since Nixon tried to bug the Democratic party offices at the Watergate Hotel.
Hoover amassed significant power by collecting files containing large amounts of compromising and potentially embarrassing information on scores of powerful people, especially politicians. According to Laurence Silberman, appointed deputy Attorney General in early 1974, Director Clarence M. Kelley thought such files either did not exist or had been destroyed. After The Washington Post broke a story in January 1975, Kelley searched and found them in his outer office.
A very long way. Hoover and Nixon would be amazed at what advances in technology have wrought.
A very long way. Hoover and Nixon would be amazed at what advances in technology have wrought.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say this... Maybe the Unabomber had a point.
If Democrats are serious about the WOT then it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a solution to intelligence gathering with some sort of oversight that fits current technology and stateless adversaries.
ReplyDeleteYou mean like this?
"Let's get the question of NSA legality before the Supreme Court right now, and after that we can worry about how to amend FISA in a responsible manner sensitive to changing needs, such as perhaps along the lines of the models suggested by David Kris or in Jane Harman's bill."
Sunny...Precisely. Democrats should be hammering that theme for all it's worth...
ReplyDeleteMaybe some of them can't, or choose not to for "personal" reasons. See Hoover, J. Edgar.
I think there are two important things to note here about the spector bill.
ReplyDelete1. it transitions the fisa court into a secret court with greatly expanded powers. right now, it's really set up to issue warrants for wiretapping, but this bill extends that role greatly giving the fisa court the power to decide issues of contitutionality with some criminal, civil, and appellate powers: it gets the power to decide the constitutionality of certain executive programs, and cases involving the executive programs must be brought and decided there, instead of the usual court systems. but as the bill points out, the court can make its proceedings and decisions in its new expansive role completely secret, so presumably this eliminates the ability to appeal decisions.
2. okay, so the fisa court will be a new secret court with expanded powers. so whose court will it be? remember, all of the fisa judges are appointed by the chief justice of the supreme court. since congress (95-1 vote) set up fisa in 1978 there has been an important change in government: back then, the president did not choose the chief justice---the president appointed the supreme court justices and the justices themselves selected their chief justice. but now that the president has appointed the chief justice (in this case john roberts, who has already ruled in an appellate decision that bush's tribunal's are okay and that enemy combatants fall outside of common article 3), it's probably not a good idea to expand fisa's power so greatly without making some changes to how the fisa court is made up.
Specter: "The president does not have a blank check... so let's give him one."
ReplyDeleteMark Morford:
ReplyDeleteI was having cocktails recently with a group of people, among whom were two lifetime Republicans, each in his 60s, corporate businessmen, one admittedly slightly more moderate than the other (to the point where, after once hearing a senator read off a long list of Bush's hideous environmental atrocities, actually let his conscience lead his choice and ended up voting for Kerry) but nevertheless both devoted members of the party.
Bush came up, as a topic, as a cancer, as a fetid miasma in the air. They were both shaking their heads. They were sighing heavily. They were both, in a word, disgusted. The more staunchly conservative of the two even went so far as to say he was so embarrassed and humiliated by this president, by this administration, so appalled at all the war atrocities and the wiretapping and the misuse of law, the fiscal irresponsibility and the abuse of the lower classes and the outright arrogance, that if the Dems could somehow produce a decent moderate candidate with a brain, he'd have zero problem switching allegiances and voting for him. Or her.
It may not sound like much. It may not seem like a major shift. But it is, in its way, sort of massive. For thoughtful Repubs with a conscience (they actually exist, I have seen them), there is little left to defend. There is little this administration has done among all categories of ostensible GOP values that they can look to with any sort of pride. Medicare? Shrinking the budget? Smaller government? Less intervention in our lives? Reduced spending? Increased respect in the international community? Responsible international citizen? Ha. Name your topic, BushCo has failed. Spectacularly. Intentionally.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSpecter: "The president does not have a blank check... so let's give him one."
Stop that! It's not funny.
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ReplyDeleteJAO - The most surreal part of this is that the so-called mainstream media has completely bought the spin that this represents some concession on the part of the administration.
ReplyDeleteNow that that falsehood has been established as the truth, it will be trebly hard to build a fire under Congress.
This, sadly, is a superb point, completely true.
I've said this before - many times, actually - but I don't understand why media outlets with the resources of the NYT or Wash Post can't get reporters who are (a) smart enough and (b) knwoledgeable enough about these issues to write articles which do things other than mindlessly regurgitate patently false, self-interested political characterizations from the government and its allies. It is truly mind-boggling.
Anyone with a basic understanding of what FISA was and of the conflicts in play could read the Specter bill and see that the last thing it does is entail "compromises" on the part of the White House. Nobody who knows how to read could read that bill and think that. I believe they don't even read the bill. They just call their standard sources on each side, go with the White House-Specter assessment on the ground that it is a joint view of both warring sides, and then throw in a cursory ACLU quote somehwere at the end just to be able to say that they included some opposing views. But the reporters who are writing about this - and I mean the ones writing in the pages of our country's most important newspapers - don't actually have any idea what they're talking about.
That incident in March, where the WP put on its front page the claim that the "compromise" bill from the Intelligence Committee entailed Congressional oversight of the NSA program - even though one read of the bill made clear that it did no such thing - really illustrated that point for me. They were told by representatives of DeWine and Snowe's office that their bill had all this great new oversight, and without reading the bill or understandig the issues, they simply printed it as fact, even though it was completely wrong.
The idea that this Specter bill represents some sort of WH compromise, or that it entails any degree of meaningful judicial review of the NSA program, is a complete joke. It is factually false. And yet it is what is being reported in every major media outlet and, as JaO correctly observes, is solidifying as conventional wisdom as we speak, which will, in turn, lead the media morons to accuse any Democrats who oppose this bill of being extremist, uncompromising, obstructionist, etc.
The biggest problem this country has is our stupid, lazy, easily manipulated, coddled media which regularly spews falsehoods because they're too stupid and lazy to do anything other than repeat what is told to them.
I fully realize that this isn't a new observation, but it's times like this when one can't help - or at least I can't help - focusing on it to the exclusion of most everything else. In every single event I did on my book tour, people always asked what could be done about the media, and I also answered that, in my view, it was too fundamentally broken to try to fix, and the only solution was to invent new mechanisms to communicate with and inform citizens without the need to go through the media. This is exactly why I think that.
Glenn, your analysis makes a lot of sense, and I applaud your decision to finally withhold the benefit of the doubt from Buttboy Specter. This issue started with an intolerable usurpation of power, and any deal to resolve it was bound to be a bad one. Specter managed to negotiate an intolerable one.
ReplyDeleteThe powers that the Bush administration claims and that Specter presumes to grant it are unconstitutional. The trolls here can bray all they want, but there is no tenable constitutional basis for the surveillance that is now under way.
So the constitutionalists would win the argument. The royalists are winning the war: Public opinion should be outrage by now, but it's not.
Anyone who knows what is really going on - what information is being gathered, on whom, and what is being done with it - needs to find a way to speak (leak) now, because time appears to be running out. If you're sworn to secrecy, you are also sworn to protect the Constitution. Time to get your priorities and principles in order before it's too late to apologize.
What will the Democrats do?
ReplyDeleteNothing.
That is until it is revealed that the Bushies have had a nixonian "enemies" list of prominent opposition politicians, celebrities and media people that they have also been spying on (so much for the "terrorist only" approach).
Then again, by then many americans will equate them with traitors, thanks to the rightwing "if-you're-not-with-us.." PR campaign. We may even hear a call for McCarthy-esque hearings.
Glenn... The biggest problem this country has is our stupid, lazy, easily manipulated, coddled media which regularly spews falsehoods because they're too stupid and lazy to do anything other than repeat what is told to them.
ReplyDeleteOn a previous thread you admitted to being a bit less jaded or cynical than many of us, (not your words, I'm paraphrasing you poorly). There is a reason why some of us actually consider it a distinct possibility that journalists, opposition party pols and others are being manipulated. They may be doing what they must for "personal reasons". Not all succumb to this type of "pressure" but if enough do...
It makes the accusations of Markos' mind control over us all more of a projection from the right than anything else.
Did the FBI Try to Blackmail Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteExcellent post and excellent comment above.
Anonymous 9:37 AM,
ReplyDelete"1. it transitions the fisa court into a secret court with greatly expanded powers. right now, it's really set up to issue warrants for wiretapping"
The FISA court has always been "a secret court with greatly expanded powers". There is not now, nor has there ever been, any way for people to access the court's records or challenge the court's decisions. Makes you wonder why some people like FISA so much...
nick 9:12 AM,
"On Tuesday, Attorney General John Ashcroft declassified a four-page directive sent by Ms. Gorelick (the No. 2 official in the Clinton Justice Department) on March 4, 1995, to FBI Director Louis Freeh and Mary Jo White, the New York-based U.S. attorney investigating the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. In the memo, Ms. Gorelick ordered Mr. Freeh and Ms. White to follow information-sharing procedures that "go beyond what is legally required," in order to avoid "any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance" that the Justice Department was using Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrants, instead of ordinary criminal investigative procedures, in an effort to undermine the civil liberties of terrorism suspects."
Shooter242 8:20 AM aptly describes the "Gorelick wall", as an obvious stumbling block for terrorism investigations.
Remember this?
ReplyDeletebuzz-buzz-buzzzzz... Swat!
ReplyDeleteHe links to an unsigned op-ed in the Moonie Times as definitive and conclusive.
Mean Avg. IQ just plunged.
From anonymous at 10:35am:
ReplyDeleteHe links to an unsigned op-ed in the Moonie Times as definitive and conclusive.
Its worse. He's talking about the fictional "Gorelick Wall" as if it were a real impediment.
I bet Conason reads Glenn.
ReplyDeleteElectrocute Bill Keller! No, hang him!
The moronic hosts of GOP-connected radio station KSFO get big yuks calling for "traitors" in the press to be killed -- all brought to you by Disney.
By Joe Conason
While Melanie Morgan debates with Ann Coulter about whether the executive editor of the New York Times should be killed by gas chamber or firing squad, the institutional forces behind the San Francisco radio host deserve to share in the national spotlight now focused on her. Morgan's brand of authoritarian extremism is brought to her radio listeners every day courtesy of the Disney Corp., which owns KSFO-AM -- a station that functions as a mouthpiece and fundraising mechanism for the Republican Party.
Through KSFO and Move America Forward, a right-wing nonprofit (and "nonpartisan") organization that she co-chairs, Morgan enjoys an extensive network of connections in the Californian Republican Party. The founder and "chief strategist" of Move America Forward is noted Republican consultant Sal Russo, whose firm has represented a broad spectrum of GOP candidates around the country over the past three decades.
Shooter242 8:20 AM aptly describes the "Gorelick wall", as an obvious stumbling block for terrorism investigations.
ReplyDeleteBut the misnamed "Gorelick wall" is widely recognized by legal scholars not to be an unavoidable or necessary consequence of FISA, but was simply a policy of overly cautious misinterpretation of statutory requirements -- a policy that none of Gorelick, Reno, and Ashcroft needed to continue. As such, this misinterpretation and overly cautious policy is by no means an argument against the continuation of FISA, but is merely an argument for the discontinuation of that prior and faulty policy.
When I read through the bill, in disbelief, all I could think is that if Specter had been some sort of Manchurian candidate planted by the Bush administration, he could not possibly have done a better job.
ReplyDeleteBecause of his stubborn opposition to this program, and the press's general laziness, this bill is being characterized as some sort of compromise between waring camps. But the bill is clearly everything the Cheneys and Addingtons of the world could possibly want.
And, is it too much to ask that that the media point out that submitting the NSA program to judicial review AFTER it has been legalized is very different than submitting it to judicial review now, when it is quite clearly illegal. That's about the most basic point in the world, but somehow no one in the media seems capable of articulating it.
I'm a cynical bastard, but not necessarily a pessimist, but we're fooked unless the blogosphere buzz on this does big media's job for them, again.
ReplyDeletemichael: "I've always had a problem with these 'secret courts'. It's an end run around the Constitution. Even FISA courts shouldn't be acceptable."
ReplyDeleteI agree whole-heartedly and have been wondering why no one ever brought this up before. The FISA Court is Constitutionally questionable at best, and yet too much of an inconvenience for Bush to consult, even though they can issue rubber-stamp warrants up to several days AFTER the spying has already been done.
The corporate-controlled media won't allow their reporters to bring any of this out. So those who want to know get information from people like Glenn Greenwald and The Daily Howler (dailyhowler.com). The DH, by the way, continually runs concerns like those brought out in today's blog.
It was in the newspaper yesterday that Robert Novak made public that Karl Rove was one of his sources on the Valerie Plame leak, so I don't think how anyone on their right mind would think that this administration could be trusted with going back to a pre-FISA kind of spying.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Rove is going to pull a John Ehrlichman and claim he was acting in the interest of national security in the civil suit coming against him??
The opinion in US vs US District Court makes it clear that the government can't be trusted with unfettered spying power because it historically views political opposition as security threats. Which means that the President's duty to uphold the 4th Amendment trumps his duty as Commander in Chief cited in Article II. Can Congress enact legislation that would the place the duties proscribed in Article II as more important than the rights guaranteed by the 4th Amendment?
It is easy to start drawing parallels between this and Nixon. Plamegate sure feels a lot like the Pentagon papers. Daniel Ellsworth leaks the papers, and the WH has Ehrlichman break into the office of his shrink Lewis Fielding to find stuff to discredit him. Wilson writes a op-ed piece that is critical of Bush and the WH declassifies information and leaks it to discredit him. It would be interesting to find out what is in Plame civil suit. And did the disclosure violate her 4th Amendment rights?
I don't but this idea about warrantless spying against foreign civilians in the US because it isn't that simple, you can't spy on foreign nationals in the US without spying on the US citizens who come into contact with them. You have to spy on them too. All the court cases seem to deal with individual cases that already had established that the US national was acting in consort with a foreign national. This spying, for what little I know and understand about it, seems a lot more general and therefore is a 4th Amendment question.
As for this "we are at war" thing, we were at war when Ellsworth leaked the Pentagon Papers, and that war was a lot more hotter than this covert war on terror.
shooter242 sez:
ReplyDeleteSurely Democrats can agree on SOME way to make eavesdropping on the appropriate people easier while retaining oversight.
Kind of hard when the "appropriate people" are those terrifying Quakers ... and Preznit Cheney's other enemies du jour.
But shooter assumes here that the Republicans would even listen to any Democratic proposals.
And he assumes that we need to make eavesdropping "easier".
What the maladministration want to do is spy without a warrant (even a warrant after the fact). The law doesn't ease the evidentiary standard for getting warrants or streamline the process. Instead tt removes accountability and any actual oversight on who's being snooped on and why. That's popular for the maladministration and Republicans. Wonder why?
Cheers,
shooter242 is spinning the RNC "spin points":
ReplyDeleteConsider that FISA has such a sterling record of granting warrants, not because they are lenient, but because it is so difficult to get through layers of bureaucracy and the court will ruin a career if the application is not perfect.
So FISA, by essentially never turning down warrants, is responsible for the timidity of others in asking for warrants?!?!?
That makes no sense in more ways than one.
That's what happened to FBI supervisor Resnick and led to FBI inaction regarding Moussaoui's laptop, and the flying lesson info.
That difficulty stifled investigations that may have prevented 9/11.
So the maladministration has "ruined" the career of agents (they're the ones that can do that, not the courts) for reaching too much?!?!? Shooter's making this sh*te up to excuse the maladminstration. I'd point out that is was Dubya that gave a performance bonus to the guy that quashed the requests of the Minnesota office for a peek at Moussaoui's computer. Whadda hero, eh?
Cheers,
And, is it too much to ask that that the media point out that submitting the NSA program to judicial review AFTER it has been legalized is very different than submitting it to judicial review now, when it is quite clearly illegal.
ReplyDeleteBingo! That is what strikes me as incredibly ignorant, disingenuous, or deceptive about the near ubiquitous "Bush retreats, agrees to court review" storyline. The agreement is not to assess whether the warrantless surveillance program was lawfully conducted, but rather to radically change, gut, and in the end make irrelevant statutory constraint of executive power to engage in surveillance, and then to ask the FISC whether Bush's surveillance program is now lawful under this new legal regime.
It's not so much a review of the program under current law, but a preview of how the court will read the new law.
(Upper West says)
ReplyDeleteThis and other issues must be framed in the context of PRIVACY for people to respond. Privacy transcends single issues and extends to both spying and reproductive issues -- like abortion, birth control and Schiavo life and death issues.
The message is simple. "The right wing GOP wants to spy on you and get into your bedroom and hospital room. Don't let them do it!"
michael 10:33 AM,
ReplyDelete"I've always had a problem with these 'secret courts'. It's an end run around the Constitution. Even FISA courts shouldn't be acceptable."
That's what I've been trying to say for months. What is constitutional about America having "secret courts".
Anonymous Gump 10:35 AM,
See the 9/11 Commission report.
[Page 79]
"In July 1995, Attorney General Reno issued formal procedures aimed at managing information sharing between Justice Department prosecutors and the FBI.They were developed in a working group led by the Justice Department’s Executive Office of National Security, overseen by Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick."
Read the original memo itself if you prefer.
The point is that Gorelick is expressing reservations about using FISA warrants, [not warrant less surveillance mind you] because of civil liberties concerns.
After 9/11, Senator Specter is right to question FISA where it intersects with the President's role as CiC. The best way to resolve this issue (like the military commissions discussed in Hamdan as well) is for the executive and legislative branches to reach an agreement.
"our national media is indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunction and just plain stupid, for reasons discussed in this comment here and here."
ReplyDeleteYou forgot arrogant and self-serving.
They focus obsessively on their own importance in a democratic society and then won't perform the function that makes them so important.
Of course, at this point the same applies to both parties as well.
f.l.y. sez:
ReplyDeleteShooter242 8:20 AM aptly describes the "Gorelick wall", as an obvious stumbling block for terrorism investigations.
Ummmmmmm ... nope. The "wall" (which existed long before Gorelick) had to do with whether criminal prosecutors could lead the use of national security warrants (and possibly twist these powerful tools to achieve their own ends in a run-around of the Fourth Amendment). But here, all the hullabaloo is about the desperate need to snoop ruthless enemies of the state for national security purposes before they cause great harm. The "wall" doesn't prevent any such snooping; it just keeps prosecutors from ... say, intentionally using the NSA to round up fradulent baby-formula sellers.
Cheers,
Has it occurred to anyone that the MSM coverage of the Spector bill isn't the way it is because the reporters are stupid, but because the owners prefer not to rock the boat?
ReplyDelete(Yes, I'm being facetious. On the other hand, where does the conventional wisdom in such matters actually originate? Could Chomsky's take on it conceivably be correct?)
In any event, all credit to Glenn for doing the best he can to put a hitch in their &%^&#&%$* gitalong.
The message is simple. "The right wing GOP wants to spy on you and get into your bedroom and hospital room. Don't let them do it!"
ReplyDeleteNo, that is the wrong message. It is simply and too pursuasively countered by the Bush administration and its supporters claiming that, "We don't want to spy on you; we only want to spy on terrorists in order to keep you safe."
The real message is that Bush and his supporters want to eliminate legal restrictions on the President's authority to eavesdrop, and that they want you to just blindly trust Bush and all future Chief Executives.
Even if you do or want to trust Bush not to spy on you given the opportunity, that is no reason to extend that trust without reserve to all future Presidents.
F.L.Y. said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Gump 10:35 AM
Your entire understanding of the important issues of the day comes from unsigned op-eds in the Moonie Times and WSJ. The wingnuts at NRO, Faux News, Newsmax and WingNut daily are oblivious enough to sign their names to this drivel. You really shouldn't knock Forrest Gump, a fictional character with more brains and a less gullible nature than yourself.
The reporters who write on these matters literally don't understand the issues they are reporting
ReplyDeleteOf course, this is true of almost all media reporting, on every issue and topic imaginable (except for possibly journalism? let's hope...). Basically, if you actually know something about a given topic, then you can verify when the media inevitably gets it wrong. In my case, that'd be anything relating to computers. Mainstream media reporting on that is cringe-worthy at best--and that's still probably giving them too much credit.
I have met many uninformed reporters, but few in uniform.
ReplyDeleteExcept insofar as they are uniformly uninformed!
By Joe Conason
ReplyDeleteWhile Melanie Morgan debates with Ann Coulter about whether the executive editor of the New York Times should be killed by gas chamber or firing squad, the institutional forces behind the San Francisco radio host deserve to share in the national spotlight now focused on her. Morgan's brand of authoritarian extremism is brought to her radio listeners every day courtesy of the Disney Corp., which owns KSFO-AM -- a station that functions as a mouthpiece and fundraising mechanism for the Republican Party.
Back in the mid '90s, I was considerign filing a complaint with the Calfornia elections folks about KSFO's outright partisanship on elections. I though they ought to have to report their on-air advocacy as a "contribution-in-kind" in the election campaign finance reporting (keep in mind, I don't want to keep political advocacy off the air; I just want it recorded as such). Shine a light on the RW Mighty Wurlitzer. Show how it works.
Cheers,
I haven't yet seen an MSM story that gets it right.
ReplyDeleteThis is about all the better it gets in the MSM right now.
"With just the smallest amount of resolve and message discipline, they can easily convey that this is not a debate about whether to eavesdrop on Al Qaeda -- everyone is for that -- but is about whether George Bush should have the power to eavesdrop on Americans with no oversight."
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, as a Democratic insider, I can tell you that the losers in the Democratic party establishment are absolutely convinced that there is no way to win that debate.
Until we expel those establishment Democratic message gatekeepers, most of our candidates will conclude that it is too risky to fight for basic American values.
From the Baltimore Sun:
ReplyDeleteUnder the NSA program launched after the Sept. 11 attacks, the government has conducted warrantless surveillance in communications where one party is in the U.S. and another is overseas.
Do we actually know this to be true
or is this just the paper rehashing the official line?
just asking.....
Come to think of it, what exactly would Bush have done about it? Ground all air traffic indefinitely? Search all passengers? Close New York?
ReplyDeleteLocate Osama and take him out...
Oh never mind, if he can't do it now he certainly wouldn't have in August.
At this point, I think it reasonable to float the notion that the mainstream media are not lazy, stupid, ill-informed. No, the time has long since passed where it can be treated as a working hypothesis that what stories get reported and their slant is a matter of deliberate policy.
ReplyDeleteI may sound like Johnny One-Note, but please, if we return to a House controlled by the Democrats, make the first order of business the enactment of some sort of Fairness Doctrine.
Do we actually know this to be true
ReplyDeleteor is this just the paper rehashing the official line?
Well, the paper is just repeating what the administration has already admitted to. You needn't read that as a claim that what has been admitted to is the total extent of what they have done.
Considering that it is exactly the same crowd that wants to legalize torture as wants to institute the broadest wiretapping program, we are forgiven if we doubt their motivations.
ReplyDeleteThe desire to torture is rooted in an irrational fixation on dominance and subjugation. Endless hypotheticals are floated in an attempt to normalize and equivocate policies that are widely believed to damage our intellligence abilities.
Since the same folks (*ahem* shooter!) who want torture, which helps the terrorist program, also want warrantless wiretaps, can we trust the justifications that proffered? How can we not wonder if the desire for ever-increasing surveillance does not stem from the same blind and irrational authoritarian impulse as the desire for torture?
Why are torture-lovers and domestic-spyers the same people?
Why are torture-lovers and domestic-spyers the same people?
ReplyDeleteI say we giveJohn Dean a crack at that one:
What I found provided a personal epiphany. Authoritarian conservatives are, as a researcher told me, ``enemies of freedom, antidemocratic, antiequality, highly prejudiced, mean-spirited, power hungry, Machiavellian and amoral…”
We need to stop thinking we are dealing with traditional conservatives on the modern stage, and instead recognize that they've often been supplanted by authoritarians.
shooter242 sez:
ReplyDelete[Glenn]: The bill isn't 30 years old. It was amended in October, 2001 to make every change requested by the President.
October 2001? I'm reminded that one of the problems with Moussaoui's laptop was the inability to establish him under the legal classification of "agent of a foreign power" making him subject to the FISA Act, yes? I'm presuming that was rectified after 9/11?
Assumign arguendo your claims about this "problem", just what does the new Specter bill have to do with this?!?!?
Cheers,
How to convince people that Oversight needs to be strictly enforced (particularly those in the 36% who still think Dubya is swell):
ReplyDeleteA) Yes, eavesdropping is necessary to protect against America's enemies.
B) We need judicial oversight as a just in case to keep this administration honest (eew, almost threw up typing that).
C) Just think of it this way, in the future if President Hillary Clinton used the NSA to spy on all you gunowners to aid in her fight to take away all your guns...I don't I just get this feeling that might make this issue clear to those who seem to think Dubya don't need no stinkin' oversight.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteOr not. I'm reminded of Plame,...
Oh. So Plame wasn't outed as a NOC by the maladministration. And this is because of the startling new news that Novak has come forward and said that Rove was one of his sources (while refusing to disclose Cheney as the first outer, perhaps?)? Thanks for the update.
Cheers,
Just think of it this way, in the future if President Hillary Clinton used the NSA to spy on all you gunowners to aid in her fight to take away all your guns...
ReplyDeleteAlso, since the Bush clan has turned their back on practically every other traditionally conservative stance, what reason have we to believe they wouldn't change their policy on personal firearms?
Thhere is no reason to think it won't happen. It would be justified by appealing to the War on Extremism.
Orin Kerr weighs in:
ReplyDeleteI have read the Specter bill, and am most intrigued by Section 9 of the bill, which is titled “CLARIFICATION OF THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT OF 1978.” Interestingly, the Section is a “clarification” only if you assume the correctness of the President’s more controversial claims to Article II authority. If you accept the more traditional understanding of the separation-of-powers seen recently in the Supreme Court’s decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld and Justice Kennedy’s concurrence in that case, then this “clarification” is actually a major reorientation of the role of Congress in foreign intelligence monitoring away from the 1978 framework of FISA.
...different people will have different views on whether this is a good idea. But it does seem like this is a major shift in approach, and one that is probably more important in the long run than whether the NSA domestic surveillance progam is submitted to the FISA court for review.
Specter has made FISA constitutional and established proper methods of Congressional oversight and judicial review. This is a vastly improved effort over his original bill.
ReplyDeletehttp://balkin.blogspot.com/FinalSpecter
%20TSPFISA%20Bill.7.13.06.pdf
Here are a few observations of the bill after a first reading:
1) This bill retroactively amends the original FISA statute to recognize the President's Article II power to conduct intelligence gathering. This amendment states:
SEC. 9. CLARIFICATION OF THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT OF 1978.
(a) In General.—The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et
seq.) is amended by inserting after title VII, as amended by this Act, the following:
“TITLE VIII—EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY
“SEC. 801. EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY.
“Nothing in this Act shall be construed to limit the constitutional authority of the President to collect intelligence with respect to foreign powers and agents of foreign powers.”.
The use of the term "clarification" in the title indicates the intent to make Congress' recognition of the President's Article II powers retroactive.
This change comports with the testimony of the FISA court judges before Specter's committee and the dicta in the FISA court of review opinion that FISA could not limit the President's powers in these areas.
In sum, it makes FISA constitutional again.
2) The new Section 705 reaffirms Congress's power of oversight and requires ongoing reports from the Attorney General on the status of any electronic intelligence gathering program in the US.
In effect, Congress is reassuming its constitutional oversight duties which the original statute unconstitutionally delegated to the FISA court.
3) In its amendments to Section 702, I believe that Congress made court constitutional review of electronic intelligence gathering programs much easier than before. The key amendments state:
“SEC. 702. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE COURT JURISDICTION TO REVIEW
ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMS.
“(b) Mandatory Transfer for Review.
“(1) IN GENERAL.—In any case before any court challenging the legality of classified communications intelligence activity relating to a foreign threat, including an electronic surveillance program, or in which the legality of any such activity or program is in issue, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that further proceedings in such court would harm the national security of the United States, the court shall transfer the case to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review for further proceedings under this subsection.
“(2) PROCEDURES FOR REVIEW.—The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review shall have jurisdiction as appropriate to determine standing and the legality of the communications intelligence activity or program to the extent necessary for resolution of the underlying case. All proceedings under this paragraph shall be conducted subject to the procedures of section 106(f), except that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review shall not require the disclosure of national security information to any person without the approval of the Director of National Intelligence or the Attorney General, unless in the context of a criminal proceeding disclosure would be constitutionally required.
“(3) RETRANSFER TO ORIGINATING COURT.—Upon completion of review pursuant to this subsection, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review shall remand the case to the originating court for further proceedings consistent with its opinion.
“(4) PRESERVATION OF LITIGATION.—All litigation privileges shall be preserved.
“(5) CERTIORARI AND EFFECTS OF DECISIONS.—The decision the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review made under paragraph (2), including a decision that the disclosure of national security information is constitutionally required, shall be subject to certiorari review in the United States Supreme Court, and shall otherwise be binding in all other courts.
“(6) DISMISSAL.—The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review or a court that is an originating court under paragraph (1) may dismiss a challenge to the legality of an electronic surveillance program for any reason.
The highest hurdle to court review for claims against the NSA Program was the state secrets privilege barring production of classified material in open court. After the reporting yesterday, I speculated here that nearly all of the pending litigation would be dismissed under this privilege after Congress recognized the President's Article II powers.
However, under this bill, all of these cases can be transfered to the secret FISA Court of Review, whose judges can then review in camera all the top secret intelligence applicable to the case to make a ruling without compromising national security by allowing ACLU to troll through the programs and disclose their operations to the enemy.
In short, you opponents get your court review and the rest of us who actually care that these programs remain effective get continuing classification of the means and methods of the program.
Also, I really like that this program will be reviewed by judges with expertise in the area of intelligence gathering which is not the case for the vast majority of the federal judiciary.
Finally, the resulting opinions of the FISA court of review can be appealed to the Supreme Court for review.
You opponents claim that you all support gathering intelligence against the enemy, but only want congressional oversight and court review. This bill gives you all of that.
In reality, your opposition is based primarily upon partisan hatred and a desire to get the President. The posts here concerning the actual law are far outnumbered by those whining about not being able to prosecute the President.
Prove me wrong by actually reading the bill and addressing its actual provisions.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThanks once again for your vigilance on the NSA wiretapping issue. It's one of the main reasons I check your blog every day.
I haven't had time to read every comment here, so at the risk of repeating an already-stated point, I want to point out a recent entry by law professor Orin Kerr:
http://www.orinkerr.com/2006/07/14/article-iii-standing-and-the-proposed-nsa-surveillance-program-legislation/
He says, in essence, that Specter's legislation might not--as it stands--provide sufficient case-and-controversy standing for any Art. III federal court to rule on the legality of the NSA program. Again, I don't have time to read the text of the legislation, but it sounds as if it might need to be altered in some degree to even *allow*, as a jurisdictional matter, a court to review the program.
I, of course, encourage you to read Orin Kerr's comments rather than go off my summary.
PS: I just checked Orin Kerr's blog again and discovered a new entry (link below) regarding the expansiveness of Specter's legislation. I went to GW Law and know Orin Kerr to have conservative leanings, yet even he acknowledges the severe breadth of Bush's claims on executive power, and just how far Specter's bill goes in validating and authorizing every iota of those claims.
http://www.orinkerr.com/2006/07/14/the-specter-bills-major-shift-in-constitutional-authority-to-conduct-monitoring/
Prunes said: "what reason have we to believe they wouldn't change their policy on personal firearms?"
ReplyDeleteThe world is so crazy (I suppose it always has been): I never thought I'd be putting on my best Chuck Heston impression, Kentucky long rifle held aloft, saying "From my cold, dead hands."
From anonymous at 12:48 "We need to stop thinking we are dealing with traditional conservatives on the modern stage, and instead recognize that they've often been supplanted by authoritarians."
I've said before, I think the last traditional conservative (what I think of as the Eisenhower conservative) died with, uh, well, Eisenhower.
Royalists. Royalists in the nation that told the world's kings to go to hell.
Remember these words from Emma Lazarus, at the feet of the symbol of liberty?
The New Colossus
"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Remember when that's what this country was about? I think it still is in the hearts of many, but in the present day, the clamor of the royalists is very loud indeed.
Rob
Scent of Violets said...
ReplyDeleteI may sound like Johnny One-Note, but please, if we return to a House controlled by the Democrats, make the first order of business the enactment of some sort of Fairness Doctrine.
Thank you for raising the issue. Part of what these threads are about is formulating the tactical responses in the struggle against the authoritarian cultists (Dean's 23%) to keep democracy alive until the mid-term elections (presumably) give us a subpoena power in one branch of Congress. That subpoena power should give us the necessary weapon to vanquish this crop of cockroaches. But, IMHO, there are too few voices that are addressing the substantive structural and institutional reforms that MUST take place in the near future.
Watergate was strike one for the Rule of Law and Democracy. Reforms were instituted, but they proved inadequate to withstand the subsequent 30 years of undermining by the anti-democrats.
George W. is strike two. Right now, we are fighting for a chance to have another shot at fixing the Constitutional order so that it will endure for the longer term. In the wake of this presidency, if we fail to make reforms that stick, then we're out, forever.
Here's an idea to resolve this argument. I am completely willing to allow the government to monitor my phone calls and e-mails as along as I have the same unfettered access to monitor theirs.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, the President, the Congress and the rest of the government work for we the people. And workplace phone and computer monitoring are well established principles in this country.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, what exactly would Bush have done about it? Ground all air traffic indefinitely? Search all passengers? Close New York?
Come back when you've figured that one out.
Um, that's a pretty easy one, troll. Get the word out to all airports and transport hubs that people on the terrorist watch list are to be observed or detained. Put security on major flights. Alert the airports to a heightened risk of hijackings. You know, the same stuff as now, except without the pointless, obtrusive searches of passengers. One might even detain men with Arab names and take the heat later.
What would YOU do if you found out even 1 team of 5 terrorists had booked seats on the same 1-way flight? Because that would have been pretty easy to spot—IF SOMEONE HAD BEEN LOOKING.
But Bush just kept on clearing brush.
Glenn:
ReplyDelete"...the principal reason the Bush administration has been able to get away with the abuses it has perpetrated -- is because our national media is indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunctional and just plain stupid"
(via JaO):
"...the damage here is that it becomes conventional wisdom that this bill is now some sort of 'compromise'"
The media does not bear sole nor even primary responsibility for this current state of affairs. They may well be "indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunctional and just plain stupid" not to mention morally bankrupt and maybe even criminally complicit. But the media is only a link in the chain that's been reshaping the country we inhabit for a very long time and is only now attracting the notice of many who'd previously been willfully blind to the icebergs we're moments from allowing to sink the ship.
If it's possible to use this blog as any sort of cross-section for public opinion, I think a compelling case can be made that even among "smart," "well-informed," "discerning," "reasonable" people, folks who'd deny with their dying breath that they're subject to the influence of any sort of propaganda, that "conventional wisdom" has shifted so radically in a certain direction that what once might have been described as the "center," is now so far off the map that it can't be defended in polite conversation any more without invoking cries of sedition and snide references to tin-foil hats.
Although I'm not at all a fan of employing the left/right device for predicting human belief patterns, John Dean has recently made this kind of point by saying that all his life he's considered himself a "Goldwater Republican," but in today's funhouse mirror he's regarded as far left. This sort of philosophical movement has been noted here and other places in the past months, but I don't believe its depth of importance, nor more importantly, its profound effect on even the people commenting about it has been properly taken into account.
It's my observation that, generally speaking, in any sort of debate in which the participants genuinely hope to reach an acceptable accord, they recognize that compromise is required. It astounds me that almost no one recognizes that those rules have been changed. In today's discourse, when people who generally come down on the side of anti-authoritarianism, diplomacy and peace make a concession in the spirit of compromise, the other side instead of responding in kind, moves the goal posts and resumes their argument inside the new playing field. They need make no acknowledgment of the concession (except perhaps to deride their opponent for having ever held such a position) because they know their argument is divinely supported. And any moral or spiritual or legal arguments they may concoct to define that divinity really just boil down to "we have the guns and unlike you, we're not afraid to use them."
The people who argue against tyranny and war never seem to get that the rules are being unilaterally changed every day. Instead, in an effort to always appear reasonable, to fend off charges of being "soft on terrorism," and to try and engage their opponents in the debate based on where they perceive the playing field is today, very few participants will actually defend their baseline principles without a disclaimer. Disclaimers like "no American doesn't support eavesdropping," "all good Americans support the troops (even in an illegal, immoral and counter-productive engagement)," "the Irag war was a good thing (the problems were in the details)," "the GWOT is unquestionably our top priority," etc.
Although I suspect many of you would rail at the suggestion, it's my view that as much as you variously enjoy bashing or express dismay at the barts and shooters on this thread and elsewhere in your lives, the plain fact is, you've bought and swallowed huge parts of the same propaganda they have...now you're just haggling over the price. The lawyers, real, fake or somewhere in between all love to toss around legal jargon as if this is all just a pretty absorbing chess game with no particular consequences hanging in the balance. (RIP ka-bar). When the authoritarian viewpoints are debated into a corner, all they have to do is say "TERRORISTS" and everyone shuts up...game over.
This has already gone on way too long for a comment and I apologize for that. But if you genuinely wonder how we got to this place (this Executive is one small step away from doing whatever the hell it wants with many blessings), I'd suggest you examine some of the "facts" you've accepted over the past six years...and consider the possibility that you've accepted them because you continue to believe (irrationally, in my opinion) that there's some terrible shit that just can't happen here.
Bart and shooter love to scoff and say "when they come and kick down your door, come and talk to me then." But what warning will you have and where will you be if and when it DOES happen? My prediction is, it won't be within range of being able to ask bart and shooter, "what now?" And, somehow I don't think they'll be all that interested in helping you out, they'll be too busy trying to cover their own unimpeachable asses.
Bart, I'm not sure if you have any legal training, but if so, you've abundantly demonstrated it to be dubious at best. I recently wrote a long legal analysis on this issue and found, after exhausting all the relevant legislative history and court decisions that FISA, a statute in effect for three decades, is solidly constitutional, and the President's NSA program just as plainly runs afoul of it.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I can't and won't get into all the details here, but suffice to say that your position on the issue is quite the lonely one in the legal community. Even lonelier when you remove those legal "experts" speaking on behalf of the Executive Branch itself.
Let me just say that if you believe the President can eavesdrop on *American citizens within the territorial United States* in a manner that flies directly in the face of a congressional statute validly passed pursuant to Congress' authority to regulate the military and participate as a co-equal branch in national security matters, then I seriously wonder what on Earth that means the President may *not* do to American citizens in contravention of law and in the name of national security.
I have no choice but to put it bluntly and in unmistakable terms: it is an unmitigated joke to suggest that Congress lacked the power to pass FISA as it exists today and has existed for decades, that FISA needs any "clarification" whatsoever, and that the NSA program does not fly blatantly in the face of that law.
There are indeed some positions in law that are simply wrong and not supportable by serious argument. Yours is one of them.
You have read and commented on this blog long enough to have read the volumes of reasons why this is so. Unless you lack a serious degree of reading comprehension, there is simply no excuse for you other than willful blindness.
Arne Langsetmo 11:38 AM,
ReplyDelete"all the hullabaloo is about the desperate need to snoop ruthless enemies of the state for national security purposes"
No kidding. Upthread I'm talking about the net result of the Gorelick Directive [you know, meddling with FISA] namely the resulting bureaucratic confusion about how intelligence would be gathered and shared within / among the various agencies. For example, the 9/11 Commission seems to point to The Office of Intelligence Policy and Review appointing itself as an unofficial FISA "gatekeeper" as one result.
[9/11 report page 79]
"The Office of Intelligence Policy and Review became the sole gatekeeper for passing information to the Criminal Division. Though Attorney General Reno’s procedures did not include such a provision, the Office assumed the role anyway, arguing that its position reflected the concerns of Judge Royce Lamberth, then chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The Office threatened that if it could not regulate the flow of information to criminal prosecutors, it would no longer present the FBI’s warrant requests to the FISA Court. The information flow withered.
The 1995 procedures dealt only with sharing between agents and criminal prosecutors, not between two kinds of FBI agents, those working on intelligence matters and those working on criminal matters. But pressure from the Office of Intelligence Policy Review, FBI leadership, and the FISA Court built barriers between agents even agents serving on the same squads. FBI Deputy Director Bryant reinforced the Office’s caution by informing agents that too much information sharing could be a career stopper. Agents in the field began to believe incorrectly that no FISA information could be shared with agents working on criminal investigations.
This perception evolved into the still more exaggerated belief that the FBI could not share any intelligence information with criminal investigators, even if no FISA procedures had been used. Thus, relevant information from the National Security Agency and the CIA often failed to make its way to criminal investigators."
Bonus round:
The "Gorelick Directive" also neatly separates the "Foreign counterintelligence Investigation" into future terror plots [deemed FISA worthy?] from the "criminal" investigation into the foiled terror plot to bomb a dozen US jumbo jets outbound from the Philippines [not deemed FISA worthy?] which, as it turned out, were cooked up by one and the same alleged "mastermind" Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
[cbsnews]
"(AP) Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, has told American interrogators that he first discussed the plot with Osama bin Laden in 1996 [...]
Mohammed told his interrogators he had worked in 1994 and 1995 in the Philippines with Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah on the foiled Bojinka plot to blow up 12 Western airliners simultaneously in Asia. [...]"
Needless to say, I think the surveillance effort might have been more successful if Gorelick's Directive simply said: Do whatever it takes to find out what the terrorist's plans are, before they have a chance to strike the US again.
Bill St James... It's my observation that, generally speaking, in any sort of debate in which the participants genuinely hope to reach an acceptable accord, they recognize that compromise is required.
ReplyDeleteAnother idealist who isn't aware that a "cold civil war" has been going on for over 30 years. It's been smoldering in fits and starts since the revolution. Maybe it needs to heat up. There is no desire on the part of the right to reach accords, compromise or even engage in honest debate. Hello! A desire to engage them only on that front is appeasement and death of the Republic.
Finally, I will note the irony that occurred a month ago, when Walter Pincus of the Washington Post did read the bill -- an earier version of this one, already containing some of the most pernicious features -- and reported on what the draft would actually do. Pincus was wrongly excoriated here for telling the truth.
ReplyDeleteRight - he was excoriated based on the unequivocal statements of a United States Senator who said that he was wrong in his report. That's called "evidence," as opposed to uncorroborated and unverified political spin.
Another difference is that the moment the evidence became available that Pincus was right, a clear retraction was immediately forthcoming here, as opposed to the tepid and quite belated retraction issued by the Post regarding Babington's article.
It's fine with me if you want to make excuses for these reporters. "Oh, it's a complex bill" and all. But this scandal is now more than six months old. Anyone writing front page articles for the Washington Post ought to be well familiarized with the statute by now, and there is simply no excuse for charaterizing the Specter bill as a "comrpomise" when it is the very opposite of that.
F.L.Y.'s favorite movie
ReplyDeleteRobinson Crusoe on Mars (1963).
Seek professional help.
I can't find the Yahoo article now, but I saw one a couple of days ago that stated that Bush had broken with historic "norms" in not obtaining warrants through FISA. This is the problem in a nutshell. The president hasn't broken "norms", he has broken laws. The press now equates laws and norms.
ReplyDeletemichael: "I've always had a problem with these 'secret courts'. It's an end run around the Constitution. Even FISA courts shouldn't be acceptable."
ReplyDelete"I agree whole-heartedly and have been wondering why no one ever brought this up before. The FISA Court is Constitutionally questionable at best..."
...and not for the reasons that bart always likes to trumpet "the poor elephant president has his hands tied."
How we could get to kicking the 4th Amendment to the curb behind star chamber courts without anyone noticing or complaining is appalling.
A perfect example of what i was talking about above...the barts get to be indignant that FISA is too restrictive and forces the argument to be about that while completely ignoring the homlcide of the 4th Amendment.
Why? TERRORISTS! They are unquestionably the greatest threat to civilized man ever encountered on this planet and our ability to survive the onslaught is dicey...we need everyone to step up and throw their rights in the trash can.
Do it now!
HWSNBN doesn't knwo what he's talking about:
ReplyDelete1) This bill retroactively amends the original FISA statute to recognize the President's Article II power to conduct intelligence gathering. This amendment states:...
Either the Preznit has Article II power or he doesn't. That's a Constitutional question, not a statutory one. Congress can no more "regognize" it as they can amend the Constitution by voice vote of one chamber.
If HWSNBN is here instead maintaining that this is Congress modifying statute to (permissively)(affect the parameters of the preznit's wiretapping authority ala Youngstown situation 3, HWSNBN is folding his hand on all the fluff he's been spewing here the last six months.
Any FISA amendment would be superfluous and ineffectual if HWSNBN's origial claims were indeed the case.
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteIn sum, it makes FISA constitutional again.
Assuming arguendo that FISA was unconstitutional, that's hardly worth mentioning. Repealing any law loeave the result (i.e., nothing) "constitutional" regardless of its previous status.
Cheers,
Via,
ReplyDeleteThat's the whole problem with the entire national debate. It's become one of "should the president, as an abstract policy matter, have this wide-ranging power?" instead of "should the President blatantly flout a valid and longstanding law passed by Congress to protect the American people from abuses of surveillance power?"
Of course, by all means, the country should have the debate about whether the President should be able to wiretap without court oversight. However, this is a debate to be had in the Congress, and with the Executive Branch and involvement of the body politic, not only within and decided solely by the secretive Executive Branch itself.
In other words, yes, the whole issue is about the rule of law (not "norms") and the Separation of Powers, matters which, if I may be so bold, actually *transcend* any enumeration or protection of individual rights. This is because, when the very structure of our constitutional design of power checking power breaks down, the Bill of Rights becomes an unenforceable dead letter.
"the principal reason the Bush administration has been able to get away with the abuses it has perpetrated -- is because our national media is indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunctional and just plain stupid"
ReplyDeleteOr maybe they're just on the other side? Back in the late 80's on Pat Robertson's 700 club show he claimed that his Christian Coalition was in the process of recruting people to run for school boards and take positions at local newspapers in order to position themselves so that christians get a fair shake in those oh-so-horrible anti-christian 80's. Oral Roberts and Liberty University have majors in government, Law and journalism which are their most heavily pushed degree programs, and it's for a reason. They want to control the message and thus control you.
I doubt the media is stupid. They are just made up of people who are either 100% partisan and working for the interests of conservatives and christians, or they are seeing the message on the wall and would prefer to drink the koolaid rather than lose their posh jobs.
MYOB'
.
I figure y'all have about 4 months Bart, Shooter, and Fly
ReplyDeleteRepublicans are in jeopardy of losing their grip on Congress in November. With less than four months to the midterm elections, the latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll found that Americans by an almost 3-to-1 margin hold the GOP-controlled Congress in low regard and profess a desire to see Democrats wrest control after a dozen years of Republican rule.
Further complicating the GOP outlook to turn things around is a solid percentage of liberals, moderates and even conservatives who say they'll vote Democratic. The party out of power also holds the edge among persuadable voters, a prospect that doesn't bode well for the Republicans.
The AP-Ipsos poll of 1,000 adults conducted Monday through Wednesday found that President Bush has stopped his political freefall, with his approval rating of 36 percent basically unchanged from last month.
Note that 36% unchanged for two months. Despite the strong rehab attempt by the press of Bush's image.
.Needless to say, I think the surveillance effort might have been more successful if Gorelick's Directive simply said: Do whatever it takes to find out what the terrorist's plans are, before they have a chance to strike the US again
ReplyDeleteAnd coincidentally, that would stand as a reply to shooter's earlier question about what the president should have done with the August PDB.
bart: In reality, your opposition is based primarily upon partisan hatred and a desire to get the President.
ReplyDeleteI'm not qualified to judge your competence as a lawyer, or as a master of small arms, but you are definitely a lousy psychologist.
I oppose GWB not because of what he is (a Republican), but because of what he does (res ipsa loquitur -- is that the legal phrase I'm looking for here?)
HWSNBN misstates the case:
ReplyDeleteThe highest hurdle to court review for claims against the NSA Program was the state secrets privilege barring production of classified material in open court....
Nah. That was just Dubya trying to avoid a court battle by any means possible.
As for the problems with classified materials, courts have dealt with this for years (as they did in Padilla, Moussaoui, etc.). There is no need to go through this classified stuff in open court.
Not to mention the "state secrets privilege" doesn't "bar" production of such in open court.
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteHowever, under this bill, all of these cases can be transfered to the secret FISA Court of Review, whose judges can then review in camera all the top secret intelligence applicable to the case to make a ruling without compromising national security by allowing ACLU to troll through the programs and disclose their operations to the enemy.
Any court can go through materials in camera (and they often do, but maybe not so often for DUI cases, so HWSNBN wouldn't know...), and the ACLU can have people cleared to see the classified material as necessary. But I'd note that the maladministration has shown far more propensity to revealing classified material to the world than has the ACLU. Why does the maladministration hate America so much?
Cheers,
From bill st. james: "Why? TERRORISTS! They are unquestionably the greatest threat to civilized man ever encountered on this planet and our ability to survive the onslaught is dicey...we need everyone to step up and throw their rights in the trash can.
ReplyDeleteDo it now! "
The culture of fear seems to be inextricably linked with the desire of the royalists to establish a monarchy.
Rob
Are you ready for the Rapture?
ReplyDeleteI'm so embarassed to be considered an American when people like this, Shooter242, Bart, F.L.Y. get to make that claim as well.
These people are excitedly celebrating the inceasing violence in the ME as the possibility of Armageddon and the second coming.
Religious freedom is one thing. Mass hysteria and insanity is another matter.
HWSNBN lies:
ReplyDeleteYou opponents claim that you all support gathering intelligence against the enemy, but only want congressional oversight and court review. This bill gives you all of that.
Nope. We want the gummint to get warrants based on probable cause. HWSNBN knows this, but lies anyway.
Cheers,
This post cuts to the heart of something I've wondered for quite a while - what could one possibly learn in journalism school?
ReplyDeleteF.L.Y.'s favorite movie
ReplyDeleteRobinson Crusoe on Mars (1963).
Seek professional help.
Of all the people at blogger, F.L.Y. is the only one.
It's gotta be the monkey. It reminds him of GWB.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteThen here is the Rowley memo about how the FBI screwed up.
Then Dubya gave a merit bonus to the guy that sat on her request. So who's the problem here, Shooter?
Cheers,
Bill St. James,
ReplyDeleteThank you! I have been trying (not sucessfully at all) to ask when action is going to be taken. I have been derided as pessimistic. I think we have come to the time where talk is cheap and strong (political, non-violent) action is necessary. People still brush me off around here for saying the ship is sinking, time to act.
gris lobo:
ReplyDeletethat Americans by an almost 3-to-1 margin hold the GOP-controlled Congress in low regard and profess a desire to see Democrats wrest control after a dozen years of Republican rule.
So why is Denny Hassert predicting a gain of seats for the GOP? What does he know that we don’t, or is he just putting on a good face?
He’s not the only one either, check around, Republicans are suddenly finding “new confidence” but none of them can explain where that confidence is coming from.
Is this just about getting their base to the polls? This worries me.
On one of the shows the other night there was a quote displayed from John Dean’s new book where he said that these people are taking actions knowing full well it will increase terrorism, because terrorism and fear always help rally the base and bring votes to the authoritarians.
The right-wing is obscenely cheering on the escalations and spiraling of events in the Middle East (see Powerline etc.), and the talking points are that Israel has no choice but to go to war with Syria and Iran, and we (the U.S.) have no choice but to “defend Israel” which in this case means going to war with both Syria and Iran.
Is that why they’re so confident? Are they convinced that the U.S. will be involved in a regional war against both Syria and Iran? Well, that sure would increase fear at home and put us in a “crisis mode” just in time for the November elections, thus “giving” the elections to the Republicans in spite of “the polls” – which have not taken into consideration the dangerous out-of-control world we will soon be in.
Is this why they are so confident?
Risk to the oil market right now greatest since the 1970s. Your 401K is history and oil could reach $100 per barrel by the election.
ReplyDeleteGood times.
To any [competent] attorneys reading -
ReplyDeleteWould you care to opine or explain what the practical consequences of this proposed legislation will be?
So why is Denny Hassert predicting a gain of seats for the GOP? What does he know that we don’t, or is he just putting on a good face?
ReplyDeleteHe’s not the only one either, check around, Republicans are suddenly finding “new confidence” but none of them can explain where that confidence is coming from.
It comes from years of practice at denial and lying. What else can they say? The economy is booming too!
Keith said...
ReplyDeleteI have been derided as pessimistic. I think we have come to the time where talk is cheap and strong (political, non-violent) action is necessary. People still brush me off around here for saying the ship is sinking, time to act.
I don't know about that, Keith, people here brushing you off. I think you will find many of us here are on the same page with you. I do know that Glenn's blog is not about organizing direct actions. There are other places for that. But you are certainly welcome here.
michael said...
ReplyDeleteHow it happened, was by the incessant whining of "law-and-order" conservatives that too many crooks and criminals were 'getting off on technicalities'.
Those 'technicalities' are called civil rights, and they flow from the inalienable rights which we all possess at birth and which the Constitution is meant to guarantee.
Too many people bought into this trope, and that is how we find ourselves in the current situation. This is the only logical conclusion of the willingness of too many people to view the Constitution as a suggestion which can be tossed aside if it's inconvenient.
Amen. It bears repeating.
f.l.y said:
ReplyDeleteNo kidding. Upthread I'm talking about the net result of the Gorelick Directive [you know, meddling with FISA] namely the resulting bureaucratic confusion about how intelligence would be gathered and shared within / among the various agencies. For example, the 9/11 Commission seems to point to The Office of Intelligence Policy and Review appointing itself as an unofficial FISA "gatekeeper" as one result.
What's that got to do with FISA warrant requirements?
Cheers,
1) This bill retroactively amends the original FISA statute to recognize the President's Article II power to conduct intelligence gathering. This amendment states:...
ReplyDeleteWhere in Article II does it say the President gets a pass on the 4th and 5th Amendments? The bill tries to give a President (not just THIS one) absolute power to spy on any AMERICAN for any reason at any time without any oversight or judicial review. This is, in fact and by definition violations of the 4th and 5th Amendments.
This clearly means that Bush HAS been spying on "enemies" like the Quakers, peace activists, Democrats, Greens, environmentalists, labor rights activists, human rights activists...you know, people who are a threat to the country.
Sorry, the Bill of Rights ALWAYS applies and no law can sidestep them. Only a nullifying amendment can gut them.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo why is Denny Hassert predicting a gain of seats for the GOP? What does he know that we don’t, or is he just putting on a good face?
He’s not the only one either, check around, Republicans are suddenly finding “new confidence” but none of them can explain where that confidence is coming from.
If you owned Diebold you might think that too.
The right-wing is obscenely cheering on the escalations and spiraling of events in the Middle East (see Powerline etc.), and the talking points are that Israel has no choice but to go to war with Syria and Iran, and we (the U.S.) have no choice but to “defend Israel” which in this case means going to war with both Syria and Iran.
ReplyDeleteMichael Ledeen at NRO as well, and the NY Sun has a moron claiming that one of the the kidnapped Israeli soldiers is today's Archduke Ferdinand, ushering in WWIII. I mean, WWI was a hideous bloodbath that eviscerated a generation of young males, and it is astonishing that anyone would welcome its repeat.
So, that Bush Doctrine in which liberating Iraq would bring peace and democracy to the ME, that's really worked out well, with Hamas winning an election and WWIII (they hope) upon us.
Virtually all the same people favor Bush's warrantless NSA spying and insist he has the authority to do it. It is increasingly hard for me to engage any of them, because I seriously believe they are insane, evil, or both. That's strong and comes off as hyperbolic, but it is also likely true.
From vermontraccoon: "Would anyone actually in the right as much as Bart claims to be waste all their time and energy on a blog where they're universally disliked and disrespected?"
ReplyDeleteI have no evidence for the following unfounded speculation: I wonder if individuals are paid to come to sites like this and "spread the good news."
I don't know if this happens, or there's any evidence for this sort of thing, so I don't claim it as fact. I'm just wondering. In this day and age, it wouldn't suprise me to learn that such a thing is routinely practiced.
Idle speculation, that's all. Carry on.
Rob
Hey, Shooter242:
ReplyDeletequit whining about the Democrats not fixing things for the MBA President. If Bush can't find a way to clear a few procedural hurdles around FISA, he should admit he got his MBA from (a)CJB, not HBS.
All this crap about how FISA is too slow and not agile enough, these are all procedural matters that could have been fixed in a few months, submitted to Congress for review, and passed with bipartisan majorities *if* the only purpose of the program was monitoring terrorists' phone calls.
Since that wasn't done, and since Bush's MBA is from Harvard Business School, and not a Cracker Jack Box, I assume it wasn't done because it wasn't enough, because the program is hiding additional, illegal activity.
desert son: I wonder if individuals are paid to come to sites like this and "spread the good news."
ReplyDeleteThere is at least one company, NetVocates, that does this, so it's definitely happened to some degree, but it would be difficult to determine how much.
"NetVocates then recruits activists and consumers who share the client’s views in order to reinforce those key messages on targeted blogs – and rebut misinformation when appropriate."
However more comforting it would be to assume that there are no 'regular folks' who are actually excited by the prospect of state torture, sedition laws, monitoring of as much communications as possible, cameras everywhere, etc., it is time for all of us (I'm speaking to myself here, too) to face the fact that the fascists have come to America.
I'm not going to pussyfoot around these issues in polite company anymore. If people get offended, too bad. The inconsistencies and foibles of the right-wing are not funny anymore.
Torture is unacceptable. Sedition laws are unacceptable.
You cannot be an American and favor these things.
Great post Glenn, but I am going to have to start taking issue with you every time you write a statement like this:
ReplyDeleteThis is yet another fundamental change to our Government designed to give more unchecked power to George Bush, this time in how he spies on our conversations.
This has nothing to do with George Bush anymore. To insist it does going forward will be intellectually dishonest.
This has to do with what the politicians who run our country, both parties, want to have be an entirely new form of government with the powers of the executive vastly expanded to do away with the Rule of Law and our traditional form of government.
Once done, they will continue the usual charades of pretending we have a two party system, inflame the public about a whole host of irrelevant inciendary issues, raise all those $$$ about the abortion battle type issues, put a stooge in the White House and conduct business as is becoming ususal, with the same forces behind whatever puppet President is running the country, but increasingly lawlessly as we move forward.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GEORGE BUSH.
That should be obvious by now. If it had anything to do with George Bush, every Democrat would be against it. But they're not. Almost every establishment Democrat, as you point out, is for it.
Meanwhile, the smart people know how to attain their ends. It appears from recent articles addressing the subject that as principled old school real Republicans have increasingly turned against the foreign policy and Constitutional abuses of this Administration, the neocons, operating as the chameleons they are, have regrouped and have now taken over the DEMOCRATIC leadership structure.
Yup, remember those neocons we all came to love and admire so much? Now they've gotten in bed with the Democrats. They're like cockroaches. They do what they have to survive.
They're back where they began, cha cha cha.
What do you "party people" plan to do about that?
My suggestion?
Just run for President in 2008 Glenn. I'm not kidding. I am not buying into this "no third party outsider candidate can win" conventional wisdom as much as I once did.
The quietest, quickest, most bloodless way to have a revolution in this country would be for the people to rise up, pull the lever to throw all the bums out, and put someone in office who represented "We the People."
You should run for President. Ross Perot got a large percentage of the votes at a time when almost nobody in this country was aware of any of the current issues and the country wasn't in the state of crisis it is now. Make the case. Grab the mike. Save the country. Run.
Anyone running for a lesser office just wastes time promoting his own career and gets eaten up by the system anyway and has to compromise so much to get and stay in office that once there, he's no longer worth anything.
Take a shot and run for President. What's to lose?
Breaking News
ReplyDeleteNew York times investigates envelope with powder
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The New York Times said on Friday it was investigating an envelope received at the paper containing white powder, raising fears of a possible recurrence of anthrax-tainted letters sent to newsrooms and other offices in late 2001.
Take a shot and run for President. What's to lose?
ReplyDeleteBut then he'd have to take his well thought out paragraphs of prose and turn them into emotionally compelling but information free slogans that can fit 4 at a time into a 30 second commercial.
I wonder if individuals are paid to come to sites like this and "spread the good news."
ReplyDeleteYes. Google Netvocates.
Read This
Take a shot and run for President. What's to lose?
ReplyDeleteOh, please stop with this nonsense. Go find Shaughnessy and start your fricking third party, but don’t keep Glenn from writing about the important issues of the day – because that’s exactly what becoming a politician would do to him.
He would be doing photo-ops and fundraisers instead of analyzing legal and political issues and giving us well-written informed comments on them.
I don’t want Glenn running for office of any kind, and I suspect he has no desire to do so since he really wasn’t even “into” his own book tour – and being a politician is a “permanent book tour.”
You’ve written some very good observations and some really stupid things, EWO, but that was unfortunately in the latter category.
Enough of this “Glenn as politician” crap – spare us, please.
The New York Times Escapes Friday travel section is again encouraging readers to assassinate our leaders.
ReplyDeleteJust two weeks after publishing an article about the vacation homes of our Vice President and Defense Secretary so readers can go there and kill them, today they have published a front-page Escapes article telling readers how to get a gun permit in Texas.
Can they more blatantly (and treasonously) just give readers directions to go out and shoot our brave Texan chief executive?
michael said...
ReplyDeleteBart: In sum, it makes FISA constitutional again.
Bart, FISA has been around for nearly 30 years and no one - not one single person - ever alleged that it was not constitutional...
Jim Crow was around for far longer before it was found unconstitutional. Better late than never...
... until Bush got caught with his hand in the warrantless surveillance cookie jar.
Got caught by whom? Bush informed both Congress and the FISA court years before the NYT informed the enemy about the NSA Program.
I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but sentiments like:
ReplyDelete"...the ability to argue long and hard during a filibuster, that we support eavestropping on terrorists but with judicial oversight..."
Doesn't work on two levels in the public's imagination. First, most people don't understand terms like "oversight." Second, it's a "yes but" phrasing.
The moment a democrat says, "yes but" they have lost the debate. And in this debate, almost all of the liberals/progressives I've seen discussing the issue openly revert to this crippled way of framing the issue.
The way to discuss this issue is something more like:
"I'm not a criminal so stop spying on me. As the greatest country on the planet, we have the technology and the smarts to do so. The President does not have the right to track me like he tracks a terrorist. I expect more from my Congressmen."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"gris lobo:
that Americans by an almost 3-to-1 margin hold the GOP-controlled Congress in low regard and profess a desire to see Democrats wrest control after a dozen years of Republican rule.
So why is Denny Hassert predicting a gain of seats for the GOP? What does he know that we don’t, or is he just putting on a good face?
He’s not the only one either, check around, Republicans are suddenly finding “new confidence” but none of them can explain where that confidence is coming from.
Is this just about getting their base to the polls? This worries me."
I think it is more about little boys whistling as they pass the graveyard but constantly peeking over their shoulder as they do.
One thing for sure about politicians is that they are not going to concede they are losing until they actually do.
They have all been to the Tim Robbins school of projecting confidence and a positive outlook despite what the actual picture looks like.
The truth about their actual outlook though can be much better observed by their actions rather than their words.
When Bush was doing well in the polls the MSM wasn't doing stories about him taking coffee to Laura in bed before she got up in the morning.
That's not to say the other side should get overconfident and slack off thinking they have it in the bag. The Reps might still pull a rabbit out of the hat, but at this point, this close to the election, it is looking less likely every day that they will be able to do so.
DCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteI recently wrote a long legal analysis on this issue and found, after exhausting all the relevant legislative history and court decisions that FISA, a statute in effect for three decades, is solidly constitutional, and the President's NSA program just as plainly runs afoul of it.
I would enjoy reading your legal analysis since most of what gets posted here is name calling. Could you post a link or repost the analysis?
Let me just say that if you believe the President can eavesdrop on *American citizens within the territorial United States* in a manner that flies directly in the face of a congressional statute validly passed pursuant to Congress' authority to regulate the military and participate as a co-equal branch in national security matters, then I seriously wonder what on Earth that means the President may *not* do to American citizens in contravention of law and in the name of national security.
Really?
I would like to pose my standing challenge to you as well:
What provision of Article I or case law which interprets such a provision holds that Congress has the power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or to limit the President's Article II power to do so?
Good luck, because there are none.
In a balance of powers case, both branches have to have power over a subject matter area to have a balance.
BTW, exactly where do you get the idea that Congress is a coequal branch with the Executive in foreign policy matters? This will be news to the Supreme Court.
As for my legal analysis being "fringe," I have good company out here with the FISA judges.
Anonymous... Enough of this “Glenn as politician” crap – spare us, please.
ReplyDeleteYou are right, of course, but until we do get some quality people in both the media and public office, we are going to be spinning our wheels for some time.
Herr bart: before the NYT informed the enemy about the NSA Program.
ReplyDeleteBy 'the enemy', do you mean me?
My taxes paid for that program, and I deserve to know about it.
In fact, I don't yet know nearly enough about it.
You know what irritates me about you, bart? It's not that you hold a differing POV; it's that you advance arguments which are so transparently incorrect, inane, and idiotic that you're insulting my intelligence by expecting me (or anyone else here) to take them - or you - seriously.
ReplyDeleteAs it is, Bart is the kind of moron we get running for office.
Bart,
You are losing readers here faster than subscribers to the old print media. Get your own blog, see how many readers you get.
mds: I did not know all that. Holy shit.
ReplyDeleteOr is it just that in his real life Bart is an insecure borderline-retarded social misfit and here he can exact "revenge" without having to work up the balls to confront anyone face to face? Who's the shrink now, Bart?
ReplyDeleteI think Bart is an intern for John Yoo.
Barf... before the NYT informed the enemy about the NSA Program
ReplyDeleteThese people warned them.
A “closely similar” account of the financial tracking program was discussed at an open House hearing in 2002, the Washington Post reports, providing yet another example of the program being discussed publicly prior to last month’s New York Times report.
Clown.
1,825 words to say this - come on glenn, just insane. We all know that most commenters here will not and do not read your excessive verbage.
ReplyDeleteHow you became the latest darling of the faux advertise liberally circle of links...
JaO said...
ReplyDeleteAs for the judicial review provision of the bill, the only "constitutionality" that I can see the courts resolving would be: 1) the question of whether surveillance for foreign-intelligence purposes is covered by the Fourth Amendment at all; 2) if so, whether this program in particular is consistent with the Fourth Amendment's requirements.
Those are non-trivial questions worth resolving, but have never been the most central issues to me in this matter.
Based on their categorical dicta in In re Sealed Case, I would think that the FISA court of review would defer to the Truong, et al precedents and similarly hold that the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for intelligence collection against foreign groups and their agents in the US. The only realistic possibility of a different outcome would be if a case was accepted on appeal for review by the Supremes.
I also do not see how the FISA court is going to find that the NSA Program exceeds the Truong guidelines because there is no defendant in such a review to cross examine the government. Instead, the government will spoon feed the FISA court as if they were a grand jury and get a meaningless advisory opinion.
Professor Kerr briefly addressed the standing problem at his blog. I do not share his confidence that the proposed constitutional review is anything more than an unconstitutional request for an advisory opinion because there is no case of controversy brought by an injured party. However, it should be a largely harmless one time unconstitutional excursion.
As for the pending lawsuits by the ACLU and others, I fully expect that they would be rendered moot if this bill passes.
I hope the ACLU takes advantage of the opportunity for FISA review. After all this slander and propaganda about targeting innocent Americans, I would love for the FISA court to review the top secret evidence and dismiss these charges.
prunes said...
ReplyDeletemds: I did not know all that. Holy shit.
The "policy" on private gun ownership is one thing. The law is another matter. Another example of our useless media. You actually think the NRA position is supported by case law. It isn't. Appeals courts and the SCOTUS have never held the 2nd guarantees private gun ownership.
How the NRA Rewrote the Constitution
On Second Amendment, Reporters Side With Gun Lobby Against Supreme Court
Gun Control, the NRA and the Second Amendment
Shorter Bush Apologists: "
ReplyDeleteBig government, don't tread on me!" *
*Unless of course, it's the Bush Administration. Then tread, snoop, and spy on me all you want. Just keep me safe!
I am sure the folks in the administration are thankful their "base" supporters are frightened and uncritical rubes.
He knows full well what he's doing. He intentionally lies, deceives, and pretends not to 'get it'. He may well even believe his propaganda; it's the hallmark of a sociopath or congenital liar to believe one's own fairy tales.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like he would fit right in with the rest of them in D.C.
at 4:43 Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete" He knows full well what he's doing. He intentionally lies, deceives, and pretends not to 'get it'. He may well even believe his propaganda; it's the hallmark of a sociopath or congenital liar to believe one's own fairy tales.
It sounds like he would fit right in with the rest of them in D.C. "
I wouldn't be surprised if he was on somebody's payroll.
prunes and anonymous at 3:58 p.m., thank you for pointing me to that information. Good to know.
ReplyDeleteRob
Speaking of trolls-for-hire who keep hitting one note:
ReplyDeletefaux advertise liberally circle of links...
I think I've caught one.
prunes said: "it is time for all of us (I'm speaking to myself here, too) to face the fact that the fascists have come to America."
ReplyDeleteI agree that there exists a movement of royalists or other individuals to create a more authoritarian culture and society. I don't live under the illusion that everyone is, at heart, opposed to things like torture and sedition. Sadly, there are those who believe such tactics make the world a better place.
Nevertheless, I cannot purport to know the true motivations of the royalists that make an appearance here. Many may, in fact, believe everything they say in support of their king. I was merely speculating that some of them (in addition to being true believers; or worse, in spite of being non-believers) might also be in the employ of organizations pursuing the establishment of a monarchy. It's possible to be both, I would guess.
But your point is a good one: we must remain vigilant against tyranny, for it employs both mercenaries and fanatic loyalists in order to achieve its ends.
Why a king?
Rob
anonymous: He knows full well what he's doing. He intentionally lies, deceives, and pretends not to 'get it'. He may well even believe his propaganda; it's the hallmark of a sociopath or congenital liar to believe one's own fairy tales.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me only fair to take bart at his word. Why he comes here in particular, I have no clue, but it's entirely plausible that it's for the same reason I do, i.e. to air his views on the matters that Glenn blogs about, and, when necessary, to sharpen his arguments against articulate folks who disagree with him.
I don't see how our discussions are furthered by accusing him of bad faith. Is there really any way to know, short of remote psychoanalysis, what his actual motives are? Do they even matter, as long as he puts up a good fight?
I know it might be more comfortable for us if he'd go elsewhere, but if he did, I think I'd miss him.
Bart--
ReplyDeleteI'm going to keep this shorter than it could be, because you toss around legalisms as if you have the knowledge that would imply that you should know better.
What provision of Article I or case law which interprets such a provision holds that Congress has the power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or to limit the President's Article II power to do so?
Good luck, because there are none.
You might also be surprised to find that (horror of horrors!) there is also no provision in Article II referring to intelligence gathering. At any rate, it's a chimera to quibble over what each Article explicitly authorizes, as we would both acknowledge that the penumbras of constitutional power are deliberately vague.
On the President's side, the Commander-in-Chief power, which has mostly to do with the tactical operation and command of the military, when duly deployed. On the Congress' side, the power to raise, maintain, and regulate the military. Before I get to the text of the Constitution, I seriously doubt you would challenge the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Geneva Conventions proscribing certain conduct in the prosecution of war, and a litany of other statutes directly constraining and delineating the President's use of the military. Again, I would have to ask, what, in the execution of any war, would your philosophy classify as having exceeded the President's apparently uninfringeable Article II power?
At any rate, your first question leads inseparably to your second:
BTW, exactly where do you get the idea that Congress is a coequal branch with the Executive in foreign policy matters? This will be news to the Supreme Court.
Careful attributing your remarkable ignorance of law to, of all things, the Supreme Court. The following provision of the Constitution may have given me the crazy notion that Congress and the President share national security and foreign relations power.
Article I, Section 8--
The Congress shall have Power...
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces....
Not to mention Article II, Section 2:
[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors
In case you didn't grasp the meaning of the actual text of the Constitution, this might help:
Federalist 69:
The President is to be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States. In this respect his authority would be nominally the same with that of the king of Great Britain, but in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first General and admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies -- all which, by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature.
I shouldn't even need to get into Supreme Court precedent; I think I've made my point abundantly clear. And yes, you are indeed among an incredibly tiny circle of people who think the executive power is as vast and plenary on these issues as you do, your misinterpretation of a certain sentence of dicta from the FISA Court of Review notwithstanding.
Come on, Bart, with all that fire and smoke, you can do a little better than a first-year law student, can't you?
Before you folks go all goofy about the latest AP/Ipsos pol-itorial of "adults" being offered as proof positive that the Donkeys will win Congress in a landslide, you might want to come back to Earth and read this analysis of the scam that is the "generic ballot"...
ReplyDeleteThe Generic Ballot
Mark Blumental, the Mystery Pollster has an interesting discussion (with many links) about the value of the generic ballot polling question. You know the one that asks if the election were held today, would you be more likely to vote for the Democratic or Republican candidate. He points to a poll done in three congressional districts by Democracy Corps, the outfit run by the dynamic trio of Stan Greenberg, James Carville and Bob Shrum. What is interesting about this poll is that, in the midst of a bunch of other questions of likely voters about the respondents views of Bush, the Congress, the Republican and Democratic parties, the pollsters asked the generic question. With no names mentioned, things do not look good for the Republican incumbents in these three districts.
Generic Ballot
NJ 07
D 45
R 44
PA 07
D 51
R 39
OH 01
D 47
R 44
So, if you just looked at the generic poll number for these three districts, you'd think that those incumbent Republicans congressman are in a lot of trouble. They may well be. But, look at how the numbers switch when the respondents are given the names of the candidates.
NJ 07
Linda Slender-D 41
Mike Ferguson-R 50
PA 07
Jo Sestak-D 41
Curt Weldon-R 51
OH 01
John Cranley-D 43
Steve Shabot-R 52
Blumenthal, who is a Democratic pollster, but quite fair and nonpartisan in his analyses, points to comments made by Gallup pollsters about the cushion for Democrats in their polls.
In another report released in February, Gallup's David Moore put it more plainly: "Our experience over the past two mid-term elections, in 1998 and 2002, suggests that the [registered voter] numbers tend to overstate the Democratic margin by about ten and a half percentage points." Similarly, taking a somewhat longer view ("most of the last decade")
Gallup's Lydia Saad reported last September that "the norm" a five point Republican deficit among all registered voters that "converts to a slight lead among likely voters." Make "some adjustments" to the generic vote, she wrote, and one can "make a fairly accurate guess about how many seats each party would win."
http://betsyspage.blogspot.com/2006/07/generic-ballot.html
As soon as someone shows me 15 GOP congressional reps and 6 GOP senators trailing by a significant amount among likely voters in their own districts or states, then I might take this two year exercise in self delusion seriously.
Thanks for keeping on top of this. I'm very interested in the subject, but it's hard to keep up with Specter's latest dance.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how our discussions are furthered by accusing him of bad faith.
ReplyDeleteI am not a lawyer, so I am not competent to judge his abilities on legal matters.
However, on other matters, bart continues to ignore simple questions, present false dichotomies, and simply make shit up. (see threads from just a couple days ago.)
He is not competent in other areas. I would not be surprised if he conducts his legal arguments in the same way, but dressed up.
Bart--
ReplyDeleteI overlooked your request to see my legal analysis on the NSA issue. I don't have a webpage, so it's not online. It's more than 30 pages long, so I can't rightfully post it here either. I have it saved as a Word document.
I would love to share, but will have to confine it to excerpts relevant to particular points (if I have time to stick around here).
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeleteanonymous: He knows full well what he's doing. He intentionally lies, deceives, and pretends not to 'get it'. He may well even believe his propaganda; it's the hallmark of a sociopath or congenital liar to believe one's own fairy tales.
It seems to me only fair to take bart at his word. Why he comes here in particular, I have no clue, but it's entirely plausible that it's for the same reason I do, i.e. to air his views on the matters that Glenn blogs about, and, when necessary, to sharpen his arguments against articulate folks who disagree with him.
We have a BINGO!
I find posting to the choir at righty blogs to be boring. I became a trial attorney because I get paid for doing what comes naturally to me - arguing the issues. I tend to post at liberal blogs for the same reason.
Also, this blog is two steps above the Nazi name calling I usually encounter at other lefty blogs. I still get that some of that juvenile dreck here (note the above post), but there are also some very intelligent and witty posters such as yourself, glenn, al, jao and yankeependragon with whom I have a great deal of fun debating.
As I suggested here on multiple occasions in the past, some of you on the left might want to leave the safe cocoon of similar viewpoints and sally forth to the opposing side to challenge their view points. You develop a thick skin and sharpen your arguments significantly when jousting with a dozen others.
Wasn't the First Amendment meant to create a marketplace of ideas? You can't have much of a market place without a variety of viewpoint products to sell.
Jao said: However, I have never thought the Fourth Amendment claim was the strongest argument against the warrantless NSA wiretaps today. The strongest claim has been that the surveillance is unlawful because it violates the FISA statute.
ReplyDeleteBut is not FISA based on the concept contained in the 4th? Do not our laws have to fall within the boundries of the constitution?
Is Specter's bill going to pass muster if it is contested as unconstitutional? Does he not now expand the legislative powers with this bill in that they have given away constitutionally asigned powers? Thus claiming the right to modify the constitution without the admendment process?
Just think of the power the president (any president) will have when they also give that position the line item veto!
Thanks for the information, Glenn. For whatever it's worth, I called both my senators and Specter's office and told them Specter's bill is not acceptable.
ReplyDeletethen I might take this two year exercise in self delusion seriously.
ReplyDeleteYes, Bart, tell “them crazy moonbats” about self-delusion, and remind them once again how the day after Bush visited Iraq there wasn’t one single car bomb, and that Zarqawi’s death was a “turning point” and that since then – every day, in every way, the situation in Iraq has become better and better.
Why it is so good in fact, that Republicans in Congress insist that it’s safer than Washington D.C. and I bet Betsy’s page has polls showing that the majority of Americans believe that too. Everyone watches Fox News, and knows that schools are being painted all kinds of fine colors, and that “freedom reigns” in Iraq.
It’s so wonderful there that the construction of Iraq’s new gigantic Israeli Embassy is proceeding nicely and that the government there has joined John Bolton in supporting Israel’s actions in Lebanon.
After all, “spreading democracy” in the Middle East is the platform you wise Republicans are running on isn’t it?
Yes, Bart, give it to “those moonbats” about “self-delusion” won’t you.
michael said: "While there are certainly some of those sort running about, the larger problem is the vast number of people whose child-like faith in American exceptionalism leads them to believe that America should use torture because it's unimaginable that it would ever be misused or used on an innocent person."
ReplyDeleteAh, this is a good point, and you make it much clearer than I did. In combination with the exceptionalism, there may also be a fair amount of plain-old denial, too.
Rob
I think we can pretty well say adios to Fitz-anything at this point. Heh.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Scooter Libby shares your sanguine attitude, though I must confess I'm not sure what the Wilson's are hoping to accomplish with their latest move.
CNN reports that an envelope with white powder in it arrived at the NYTimes offices.
ReplyDeleteDCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteBart: What provision of Article I or case law which interprets such a provision holds that Congress has the power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or to limit the President's Article II power to do so?
Good luck, because there are none.
You might also be surprised to find that (horror of horrors!) there is also no provision in Article II referring to intelligence gathering.
If you have performed the legal research which you claimed, you would know that Article II grants all executive power and those powers over the military not expressly reserved to Congress in Article I. By definition, intelligence gathering is an executive and a military function. So sayeth all the Courts which have held on the matter.
At any rate, it's a chimera to quibble over what each Article explicitly authorizes, as we would both acknowledge that the penumbras of constitutional power are deliberately vague.
I am a textualist and do not read imaginary penumbras.
Before I get to the text of the Constitution, I seriously doubt you would challenge the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Geneva Conventions proscribing certain conduct in the prosecution of war, and a litany of other statutes directly constraining and delineating the President's use of the military.
I have no problem with Congress exercising its enumerated Article I powers such as it did with the UCMJ. You will have to be more specific concerning other congressional actions.
Again, I would have to ask, what, in the execution of any war, would your philosophy classify as having exceeded the President's apparently uninfringeable Article II power?
There are, to borrow a phrase, a litany of examples. To point out a few, the Congress may declare war, set forth rules for the good order and discipline of the troops, set forth rules for the treatment of captures, to raise military units, to call up the militia, etc. If Congress acts to exercise any of these enumerated powers, then the President has to follow Congress' will.
The concept of "unlimited executive power" is a straw man argument which was never argued by the Administration.
What Yoo was arguing is that the President has certain plenary powers which Congress lacks the authority to limit. To contend otherwise is to say that we have an imperial congress which can at will limit or eliminate any power of the other branches.
Come on, Bart, with all that fire and smoke, you can do a little better than a first-year law student, can't you?
You are right to observe that my Article I argument is so obvious and dispositive that even a first year law student could pick up on it.
I notice that you have declined to answer my Article I challenge above. Giving up?
I don't suppose you saw the part about Novak getting the actual name, from Wilson's entry in Who's who?
ReplyDeleteAnd where did he get the information that she was a CIA operative?
CNN reports that an envelope with white powder in it arrived at the NYTimes offices.
ReplyDeleteI'm anxious to hear Michell malkin's reaction......
Arne
ReplyDeleteI've got to ask:
What does HWSNBN stand for?
I'm a long time reader, and I'm dying to know.
michael said: "While there are certainly some of those sort running about, the larger problem is the vast number of people whose child-like faith in American exceptionalism leads them to believe that America should use torture because it's unimaginable that it would ever be misused or used on an innocent person."
ReplyDeleteAh, this is a good point, and you make it much clearer than I did. In combination with the exceptionalism, there may also be a fair amount of plain-old denial, too.
Rob
DCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteI overlooked your request to see my legal analysis on the NSA issue. I don't have a webpage, so it's not online. It's more than 30 pages long, so I can't rightfully post it here either. I have it saved as a Word document.
I would love to share, but will have to confine it to excerpts relevant to particular points (if I have time to stick around here).
A couple questions, if you don't mind...
Did you do this analysis for fun or part of some project?
Did you arrive at any conclusions which are unique and not generally debated? I would love to hear those.
Thanks.
Not to answer out of turn but I believe it was He Who Shall Never Be Named or something similar.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for the double post. I don't know how I managed that, as I am really out of my league when it comes to "teh Intarweb" and related technology.
ReplyDeleteRob
michael: He asserts his fervent wishes and propaganda as indisputable facts; he avoids inconvenient arguments from others which plainly show the weakness of his assertions; he prematurely declares victory for his side when he is nowhere near the finish line, as if saying it makes it so.
ReplyDeleteIf so, he's not alone. In my experience, you can't defeat sophistry by shouting at it, calling it a troll, or surrounding it. (By definition it's far too slippery for that.) The proper course of action is to tease it out, encourage it, and let reasonable people draw their own conclusions.
(Oops, did I just violate the Official Secrets Act of the Reality-based Community? I sure hope bart wasn't listening. Mea culpa.)
Wheww... 192 posts.
ReplyDeleteLots of handwringing and sky is falling and anger.
Now let's get this straight. *IF* everything Glenn and the moonbats here says is true about the Spectre bill that would mean what?
It would mean that the country was returned to the state it was in on this issue in 1977. Gee, 1977 yeah the fascist gulags were really rampant back then. Nazi flags everywhere. People goose stepping in the town square. Yep, I remember it well. Yep, 1977. No wonder everyone here are vomitting all over themselves. Such a scarry thought 1977. Yep that's the baddie.
201 years the country existed quite nicely and through several world wars all without FISA and all while remaining perfectly free and unharmed by our government. Yeah such a scarry thought.
Laughs the "Dog"
Bart,
ReplyDeleteYou have a remarkable, and no doubt useful, talent for ignoring your opponent's arguments while simultaneously accusing the opponent of doing the same.
I indeed addressed your "Article I challenge." You responded with a cliched and empty talking point about sticking strictly to constitutional text and not seeing "imaginary" penumbras in the Constitution, while (without noting the rich irony) simultaneously invoking an argument based on penumbras: that the President retains all the national security powers not expressly given to the Congress.
You demand to know where Article I specifically gives Congress authority over intelligence collection, yet I don't imagine you can point out where Article II specifically provides the President with the broadest possible interpretation of his powers, at the expense of the narrowest possible interpretation of those of Congress.
I did indeed answer your question, loaded as it was. I'm not going to participate in red herrings any more than you might want to futilely show me where Article II specifically and textually refers to intelligence gathering, without reference to those terrible penumbras that haunt your arguments like the Ghost of Christmas Past.
You apparently have no problem with the UCMJ. That is because to challenge its validity would show the ridiculousness of your argument. The UCMJ, as the Supreme Court recently reaffirmed, incorporates the Geneva Conventions and (in case Geneva were not self-executing) thereby imposes its requirements upon US military action.
This means that the President, with all his plenary Article II might, cannot validly order a platoon to, for safe example, summarily execute POWs of another Geneva signatory, even if the President determines that this is somehow militarily prudent. The UCMJ (with incorporated Geneva Conventions) thus acts as a direct and legally enforceable congressional constraint on the President's conduct of war, not just "internal" regulations governing how our troops interact, train, live together, etc.
Quibble as you might about the merits of such a restriction vs. the merits of requiring the executive to go to a highly deferential secret court before spying on Americans' phone conversations, but to acknowledge that Congress can restrain military conduct (not specific maneuvers in war) in the case of the UCMJ is to admit that it has power, as had been complied with by all branches without exception for decades, to pass a reasonable limitation on domestic military surveillance.
This all leads directly back to Federalist 69. That missive only points out what should be obvious: that "Commander in Chief" describes the tactical operational head of the military, not a king-like imperial power to decide anything and everything military even in the face of a constitutional, congressional regulation of the armed forces.
In the end, the inevitable result of your theories is that the President could indeed have the authority to flout the UCMJ and order troops to commit any number of atrocities against any enemy real or perceived, in contravention of any law on the subject, simply upon his deciding that it was militarily expedient and that the statutes saying otherwise unduly burdened his ability to wage war.
As was so presciently said in Youngstown, Europe has had experience in the last century with where such theories can lead.
From william timberman: "The proper course of action is to tease it out, encourage it, and let reasonable people draw their own conclusions.
ReplyDelete"
Honestly curious, not trying to bait: what happens when the unreasonable are in all the positions of policy-making and power?
Isn't there a slight naivete (again, I'm not trying to bait, and I apologize if this seems inflammatory) in saying, "Well, the reasonable people will see this for what it really is."
Yes, I agree, the reasonable people will see it for what it really is.
And?
I suspect that the polls indicate that a majority of reasonable people are seeing much of the royalists' actions and policies for what they are. And yet the royalists and the would-be king continue down the path they have undertaken. Granted, change doesn't happen overnight.
I'm probably speaking out of frustration.
Rob
michael said...
ReplyDeleteSurely it can't be constitutional for the executive to spy on Americans without any sort of probable cause.
It isn't.
The current case law holds that the executive's power to conduct warrantless surveillance is limited to intelligence gathering targeting foreign groups and their agents in the United States.
Unreasonable surveillance targeting anyone for the primary purpose of gathering criminal evidence requires a warrant under the 4th Amendment.
Unreasonable surveillance for any purpose targeting anyone who is not reasonably believed to be a foreign agent requires a warrant under the 4th Amendment.
The FISA court is providing more warrants than at any time in its history to meet these 4th Amendment requirements.
The intelligence gathering at issue is a very narrow exception to the 4th Amendment which applies to a relative handful of American residents - citizens or no.
Bart--
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how long I can stay with this back and forth, so excuse me if I have to drop out soon...
Did you do this analysis for fun or part of some project?
Did you arrive at any conclusions which are unique and not generally debated? I would love to hear those.
I did the analysis for legal research credit in my third year at law school, though it did occupy my mind quite a bit in an extracurricular sense. I'm with Glenn in seeing this as a pivotal, constitutional issue underscoring a larger anti-democratic trend in American government post-911.
One conclusion or argument that I arrived at that may have been unique was my interpretation of In re Sealed Case (FISA Court of Review). I put the dicta so often quoted by Administration supporters--you know the part--in context and revealed it to mean that FISA, rather than infringing on the President's surveillance power, actually strengthens it by giving it an aura of 4th Amendment reasonableness (to the extent that FISA is complied with).
Unreasonable surveillance for any purpose targeting anyone who is not reasonably believed to be a foreign agent requires a warrant under the 4th Amendment.
ReplyDeleteThe FISA court is providing more warrants than at any time in its history to meet these 4th Amendment requirements.
That is what is so onerous about the President's warrantless wiretapping: without a warrant, there is no guarantee that the 'enemy agent' designation is reasonable.
Desert Son:Honestly curious, not trying to bait: what happens when the unreasonable are in all the positions of policy-making and power?
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize, no offense taken. The traditional answer to your question, at least in a democracy, is that you have to persuade enough of your fellow citizens that this is the case to vote the unreasonable folks out of office.
Failing that -- because, for example, your democracy has become a sham -- there are other traditional remedies, up to and including the following:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Easier said than done, of course, but when it comes to self-determination, no one ever promised us a rose garden.
From "the dog": "201 years . . . all while remaining perfectly free and unharmed by our government."
ReplyDelete-The Trail of Tears
-The burning of the Pueblo orchards
-Slavery
-Segregation and Jim Crow
-Denying voting rights to half the age-eligible population
-Child labor
-Prohibition
-The Tuskegee Experiments
-The internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II
-The gutting of Veteran's Administration programs and services, and the cutting of veteran's benefits
{Begin sarcasm}
Luckily, this whole time, the people of this nation have remained "perfectly free and unharmed by the government."
{End sarcasm}
(Note: I am NOT one of those posters who believes we are nothing but a nation of miscreants and barbarians. I believe this nation has done some truly wonderful things, and that it has very often represented the best aspects of human spirit and endeavor)
Rob
DCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteFirst you state:
Bart, You have a remarkable, and no doubt useful, talent for ignoring your opponent's arguments while simultaneously accusing the opponent of doing the same...
Then you argue:
You demand to know where Article I specifically gives Congress authority over intelligence collection, yet I don't imagine you can point out where Article II specifically provides the President with the broadest possible interpretation of his powers, at the expense of the narrowest possible interpretation of those of Congress.
Do you at all see the irony here?
BTW, I pointed out the two provisions of Article II which expressly grant the power to gather intelligence to the President - those which grant him sole executive power and which grant him primary power of over the military with the exception of enumerated powers given by Article I to Congress.
Intelligence gathering is by definition both an executive and a military function. The Constitution does not have to list all possible military and executive functions. The President can exercise them all unless an provision of Article I gives a function to Congress.
This is not a "fringe" legal opinion. Every single court to consider the matter has so held:
See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
I indeed addressed your "Article I challenge."
Really? Perhaps I missed where you identified the provisions of Article I that give Congress general executive or CiC power which would include intelligence gathering, that expressly delegate intelligence gathering or even a single case interpreting any provision of Article I to grant Congress power over intelligence gathering.
You did not.
Rather, I got the change of subject at the top of this post arguing about Article II.
You have had two shots at this and whiffed. Care for strike three?
Laughs the "Dog"
ReplyDeleteThe “Dog” sets the bar really, really low for what constitutes a “democracy” and gosh, you can’t blame him: get a “Dog’s eye view” by putting your eyes three inches from the floor, and you’ll be amazed what you miss in the world.
Now the “Dog” says as long as you don’t have a leader with a funny little “Adolph” mustache, and Nazi flags flying, and swastika-clad soldiers “goose-stepping” well, then, folks, you’ve got yourself a real “democracy” and there’s nothing to worry about. Calm down, everything’s fine.
Of course, by those standards, Saddam Hussein (who got 96% of the vote) was a democratically elected leader and not a dictator. Not one single Nazi flag to be seen!
The ‘dog” can’t imagine that the same political system can take different forms in different countries and have slightly different characteristics, but then, that’s complex thought – and when your focus never raises much off the ground, and your nose in constantly in another’s asshole, you do have a limited perspective.
But thanks for sharing, anyway.
william timberman, thank you for your follow up. I was thinking of Jefferson as I read your previous post and was forming my questions.
ReplyDeleteYour comment about not being promised a rose garden rings very true. Was it Ben Franklin who said "We have given you a republic, if you can keep it"? I may have misattributed that quote, or misphrased it; my google skill is lousy :)
Rob
the "Dog": It would mean that the country was returned to the state it was in on this issue in 1977. Gee, 1977 yeah the fascist gulags were really rampant back then. Nazi flags everywhere. People goose stepping in the town square. Yep, I remember it well. Yep, 1977. No wonder everyone here are vomitting all over themselves. Such a scarry thought 1977. Yep that's the baddie.
ReplyDeleteActually, I think that's when Disco got started. I was there. It was unspeakably awful.
It is time for a March on Washington to let them know what we think of what has been going on. Silence is acquiescence, and too many of us have been too silent for too long. We need to show them what we think. It. is. time. to be seen and heard.
ReplyDeleteBart--
ReplyDeleteSorry to say, declaring that I "whiffed" in answering your question does not make it so. To put it kindly, you put a much higher priority on internet gamesmanship than mounting a substantive argument.
You completely dodged my UCMJ argument, which was precisely in response to the question you reflexively parrot that I didn't answer. The authority to pass the UCMJ, which you seem to approve of, stems from and shares the same nexus as the authority to pass FISA--Congress' power to regulate military conduct even towards the enemy.
That I answered your question is so obvious that your inability to get beyond denying that fact is tantamount to knocking the chess board over or putting your fingers in your ears and going "Na na na na na."
You might think it's a valuable use of time to make me repeat my clear replies to your arguments without advancing anything new on your own except a string of citations, but I don't. Thanks for what began as a worthy debate, but I've got better things to do.
What is imperative now is that *nothing* about FISA pass the Senate ever - period.
ReplyDeleteThe "Specter bill" might as well be a blank sheet of paper. It doesn't matter what Specter cooks up today, tomorrow or week after next. If full retroactive amnesty isn't in his bill now, it soon will be - with or without his fingerprints on it. And even if the Senate were somehow able to pass a bill without it, then the House - or the inevitable House-Senate conference committee - will undoubtedly write it into whatever abomination is finally enacted.
We've seen this scam so many times already over the past six years, it's just foolish not to know it when we see it coming again now.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteI wasn't saying my interpretation of FISA was novel, but that my interpretation of the part of In re Sealed Case that so many Bush supporters think makes FISA unconstitutional may have been. Who knows, someone else may have made a similar argument.
Nevertheless, it's hardly mainstream to say FISA strengthens the President's hand. The conventional wisdom regurgitated by the press, of course, is that it is an impediment. Your interpretation of history is a bit on the paranoid side, to be honest. After reading all the legislative history, and knowing the context of the times, I don't for a moment doubt that the Congress, and President Carter, legitimately intended FISA to protect innocent Americans from the abuses of the prior decade.
I gotta go eat dinner. It's been fun.
Amusing as the "exchange" between DCLaw1 and Bart has been, one left with the distinct sense of deja vu.
ReplyDeleteExactly how many times has it been pointed out the laundry list of cases Bart falls back on either no longer apply (having been answered by FISA) or never applied in the first place (having no real bearing on the issue in the first place)?
Exactly how many times has it been pointed out his interpretation of Article II is at best speculative, at worst utterly unrealistic?
Exactly how many times has he simply dismissed all counter-examples and arguments, no matter how well supported, without even the pretext of argument?
I've quote frankly lost count myself. Can anyone give any reason to continue to take this guy seriously?
I meant "quite", not quote.
ReplyDeleteyankee, bart loves America. Isn't that good enough?
ReplyDeletejao said:
ReplyDelete"However, I have never thought the Fourth Amendment claim was the strongest argument against the warrantless NSA wiretaps today. The strongest claim has been that the surveillance is unlawful because it violates the FISA statute. Since the Specter bill would amend FISA to make such surveillance legal, that claim obviously would be rendered moot."
I think that the 4th Amendment question was the whole reason for starting the FISA in the first place. Because of Nixon's abuses, and his men showing up in court using the "national security" argument as legal justification, SCTOUS was forced into deciding that the Prez's powers in Article II didn't give him the right to violate the 4th Amendment in the name of national security.
I'm not a laywer, of course, but the opinion in US vs US District Court is so bell ringing clear about the dangers of letting national security issues trump 4th Amendment rights. If we were in a full blown war like WW II where our sovergnty was at stake, then the circumstances might let the Prez have more leverage in his Article II powers, but as dangerous as Al Quada might be, it isn't a threat to our existence as a nation. The situation is like when we were in Vietnam, ore about policy than about national sovergnty.
Specter's bill shows how weak the FISA as law argument is because all you have to do is wipe if off the books and the problem is legal question is gone. The 4th Amendment question will always be there.
From b at 7:57pm:
ReplyDeleteyankee, bart loves America. Isn't that good enough?
I'm sure he does, but which 'America'? The one where the rule of law and the provisions of the Constitution are respected and followed, or the paranoid fascism where only lip-service to the law is given and the citizen's liberty is solely at the pleasure of a unitary executive his arguments envision?
shooter said
ReplyDelete"I don't suppose you saw the part about Novak getting the actual name, from Wilson's entry in Who's who?
I think we can pretty well say adios to Fitz-anything at this point. Heh."
There was a bigger article in today's newspaper about V. Plame's civil suit. Let's see if Fitzmass doesn't Federally indite Rove, would that make it easier for Plame to sue him in civil court? It might be a bigger problem for the administration because this whole NSA is about the 4th Amendment.
Yankeependragon raises the perennial Unclaimed Territory question: I've quote frankly lost count myself. Can anyone give any reason to continue to take this guy [Bart] seriously?
ReplyDeleteOnly one: for the sake of new readers who don't realize that he is a shill, and his vacuous and dishonest arguments have been rebutted by many, many here, including myself, far too many times to count. Months ago he proved to me that he is literally and brazenly duplicitous, and thereafter I have refused to engage him, except to state that I don't and why.
JaO and some others continue to respond, tho, and if they don't find it unpleasant or annoying to do so, that's fine, and no doubt it is useful for new readers that they assume the burden, lest the uninitiated were to conclude: "This Bart guy seems to be on to something, and lookie, nobody answers him. Maybe they can't?"
"The deal also requires in writing twice-yearly reports to the congressional intelligence committees on "any electronic surveillance programs in effect."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1214862,00.html
so they have a program and end it every so often just so they dont have to report?
more weasel words
sigh
br3n
Bart...As soon as someone shows me 15 GOP congressional reps and 6 GOP senators trailing by a significant amount among likely voters in their own districts or states, then I might take this two year exercise in self delusion seriously.
ReplyDeleteThat is the saddest excuse for a cut and paste feces flinging I have ever seen from monkey boy.
Betsy's Page? The Mystery Pollster?
Bart showing up in court with his head in a brown paper bag paper as the Unknown Attorney?
15?
20 House races that are not in the bag for Republicans
That's an additional 20 on top of the dirty thirty. That's 50 total in play and no longer in the bag, just leaving monkey boy's head in the bag.
ReplyDeleteThe near-inevitability of Democratic gains in the House this year makes it easy to see why 80 percent of our Watch List's "bubble races" this year will take place in GOP-held seats. For congressional Republicans, the name of the game this cycle has always been keeping the bracket of truly competitive contests as small as possible in order to minimize potential for Democrats to take advantage of any "macro-wave" and claim the 15 seats necessary to flip control of the House. But across the aisle, Democrats have been striving so stubbornly to expand the fight for the House into new theaters that it seems the party has almost willed several districts into play.
To the extent that a mammoth, late-breaking October wave for Democrats could put even the congressional careers well-established Republican incumbents in jeopardy, all clues point to GOP efforts to buy as much "flood insurance" as possible.
Back in February, the Crystal Ball followed up the 2006 Dirty Thirty by introducing a "Watch List" of 20 potentially competitive races around the country. Now that we've updated the Dirty Thirty for July, we're eager to roll out an updated watch list of races on the "bubble." As we predicted in February, several of the races originally placed on the watch list--such as the races in Virginia's 2nd and Pennsylvania's 7th--have become so central to the battle for the House that they've earned a place in the Dirty Thirty. And of course, ebbs and flows in other races have compensated for such movements. All in all, GOP-held seats still comprise 80 percent of our watch list, and we've indicated our gut feeling about these races' tendencies toward competitiveness with our rankings: roughly half are listed as "leaning" towards one party or the other, and we consider the other half "likely" to remain within the grasp of the district's incumbent party.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, it is entirely possible that the 2006 congressional elections could break two historical rules. First, it is remarkable at this point in the game that Republicans cannot claim to have a better than even shot of taking over a single Democratic district. Usually, even in wave elections, the party suffering net losses picks up a seat here or there. But from our perspective in July, the Crystal Ball rates only one Democratic seat as a toss-up, and if you put a gun to our head, we'd still bet that freshman Democratic Rep. Melissa Bean of Illinois's 8th District will prevail in November. Second, the prospect that not a single incumbent member of Congress will lose re-nomination in 2006 is noteworthy, and its occurrence would break a considerable historical streak. With a majority of contentious congressional primaries over, not a single representative on our February "Fratricide Watch" list has suffered defeat. While we would still be cautious about the odds of either of these trends overcoming historical unlikelihood, the Crystal Ball believes each is more plausible than ever.
I posted this earlier and Glenn deleted it because he knows he is being humiliated by some second-rate dude named "LB" at Don't Go Into the Light:
ReplyDeleteYes, Greenwald's at it again, showing us the sloppiness of thought that goes into his views of anything done by Republicans:
Marty Lederman has an excellent and very thorough statutory analysis of the whole travesty, explaining that Specter "introduces a bill, with Administration blessing, that gives the Administration everything it ever wanted, and much, much more."
But if you follow the link to this "thorough statutory analysis", you see that it's anything but, as Mr. Lederman freely admits:
The bill is difficult to follow, almost unreadable. I must confess that I've only given it a ten-minute once-over, which is probably more than it deserves.
Greenwald's post only makes sense if you replace the breathless hyperbole about "spying on Americans" and replace it with the truth - "spying on foreign powers and agents of foreign powers". Context reveals all.
Harper's finally put this article on-line.
ReplyDeleteStabbed in the Back!
The past and future of a right-wing myth
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteWhy did you say that Lederman gave a thorough analysis when he admitted he only looked at the bill for 10 minutes?
Is that honest?
How can you be credible when you say things like this?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI posted this earlier and Glenn deleted it because he knows he is being humiliated by some second-rate dude named "LB" at Don't Go Into the Light:
You are a liar. Two comments have been deleted by the authors of the comments themselves.
How can you be credible when you say things like this?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
I posted this earlier and Glenn deleted it because he knows he is being humiliated by some second-rate dude named "LB" at Don't Go Into the Light:
LB is the one staying out of the light. We all know who Glenn Greenwald is. You and LB... not so much. But who cares who you fuckwits are, anyway? We don't. You'll have to grow a brian first, moran. Until then...Piss off.
Apropos of nothing in particular, except as afterthought, I'd like to clarify my earlier remarks about sophistry.
ReplyDeleteAt least some of the commenters here are attorneys, and I daresay that as such, they're practiced at arguing positions which they don't necessarily believe in themselves. In a court of law, this is certainly not sophistry, but an essential feature of the adversarial system of justice which has served us well.
Carried over into a political discourse among equals, though, it's at best a red herring. Winning isn't the be all, end all of political argument; what you gain by concealing the true nature of your beliefs, and wielding a superior rhetorical club, can never be more than a Pyrrhic consolation.
As I've pointed out in comments on other blogs, honesty isn't a sign of mental retardation, and the willingness to give up irony when stating a position isn't a sign of weakness; rather it's essential if we're to understand one another correctly, and come to some sort of resolution of our differences.
Mmm...sounds a bit preachy, I admit, but on balance, I believe I'll stand by it.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteI would enjoy reading your legal analysis since most of what gets posted here is name calling. Could you post a link or repost the analysis?
When I point out HWSNBN's errors and idiocy, he thinks it's "name calling".
HWSNBN is not interested in debate. He's interested in telling his cockamamie stories ... over ... and over ... and over ... and over ... no matter what anyone else says in response.
Although, I guess he hasn't insisted that discovery must be completed before filing a SJ motion recently. Maybe there is some slight progress.
Cheers,
HWSNBN is clueless:
ReplyDeleteBased on their categorical dicta in In re Sealed Case, I would think that the FISA court of review would defer to the Truong, et al precedents and similarly hold that the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for intelligence collection against foreign groups and their agents in the US.
Ummm, based on what they did say WRT the claim that FISA was unconstitutional, their actual holding that it was constitutional was based on a comparison of the FISA provisions to those of Title III (see pp. 39-47 of the PDF), concluding "[w]e do not decide the issue [of whether a FISA order is the Fourth Amendment equivalent of a "warrant"] but note that to the extent a FISA order comes close to meeting Title III, that certainly bears on its reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment." They go on to ask: "Did Truong Articulate the Appropriate Constitutional Standard? Ultimately, the question becomes whether FISA, as amended by the Patriot Act, is a reasonable response based on a balance of the ligitimate need of the government for foreign intelligence information to protect against national secirity threats with the protected rights of citizens." (id, p.47) They conlude: "[W]e think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimal Fourth Amendment warrant standrads, certainly come close. We, therefore, believe firmly, applying the balancing test drawn from Keith, that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable." (id, p.56) There. That's the holding. In fact, reading it, they kind of reject Truong's purpose test, and instead use the logic described above. But that logikc is firmly based on the "procedures and government showings" built into FISA, something completely lacking in Dubya's warrantless spying.
Cheers,
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeleteMmm...sounds a bit preachy, I admit, but on balance, I believe I'll stand by it.
10:45 PM
Now that was "quaint". Those good old days may be gone forever, William. If, in fact, they ever really were all that good.
HWSNBB said ignerrently:
ReplyDeleteI also do not see how the FISA court is going to find that the NSA Program exceeds the Truong guidelines because there is no defendant in such a review to cross examine the government. Instead, the government will spoon feed the FISA court as if they were a grand jury and get a meaningless advisory opinion.
HWSNBN obviously hasn't read In re: Sealed Case. He couldn't have. Otherwise, he wouldn't make such absurd statements.
Cheers,
jao:
ReplyDeleteActually, I now recall that a part of the ACLU case is a Fourth Amendment claim, which would remain and presumably still could be litigated.
However, I have never thought the Fourth Amendment claim was the strongest argument against the warrantless NSA wiretaps today. The strongest claim has been that the surveillance is unlawful because it violates the FISA statute. Since the Specter bill would amend FISA to make such surveillance legal, that claim obviously would be rendered moot.
I suggest reading the last part of In re: Sealed Case (link above) where they go into that very question. But there, they were reviewing FISA warrants and procedures. In the new cases, they would be looking to see if Dubya's warrantless snoopedy-snoop, without adult supervision, is "reasonable".
Cheers,
william timberman:
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me only fair to take bart at his word. Why he comes here in particular, I have no clue, but it's entirely plausible that it's for the same reason I do, i.e. to air his views on the matters that Glenn blogs about, and, when necessary, to sharpen his arguments against articulate folks who disagree with him.
That might make sense if he actually sharpened his "arguments". Instead, he spits the sam ol' tripe out day after day, unmodified and unsupported, regardless of what anyone might say in response.
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteI find posting to the choir at righty blogs to be boring. I became a trial attorney because I get paid for doing what comes naturally to me - arguing the issues.
Ummm, that might explain why he's not able to afford Lexis/Westlaw. LOL.
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDelete... witty posters such as yourself, glenn, al, jao and yankeependragon with whom I have a great deal of fun debating.
Oh, I'm hurt! ;-)
HWSNBN doesn't think my posts "witty". Fortunately, others do, and in fact, it is for those people I write, not for HWSNBN's benefit.
Cheers,
HWSNBN said:
ReplyDeleteAs I suggested here on multiple occasions in the past, some of you on the left might want to leave the safe cocoon of similar viewpoints and sally forth to the opposing side to challenge their view points. You develop a thick skin and sharpen your arguments significantly when jousting with a dozen others.
I did. Brave Starfleet Comma... -- umm, "Cap'n" -- Ed Morrisey banned me after his circle-jerk fans complained.
RW blogs don't tolerate me for long; I point out too many obvious problems in the crapola they keep passing around.
Cheers,
Jao et al,
ReplyDeleteYeah, it crossed my mind that Bart may have been a troll, a shill, a what-have-you, but I do take him at face value because I've personally known people to argue like that, and for positions like that, again and again no matter what counterarguments they are confronted with. So, I'm not surprised when Bart does the same, and I don't take him for a shill.
All in all, I sometimes enjoy the opportunity to bounce arguments off a knowledgeable opponent.
Anonymous: Now that was "quaint". Those good old days may be gone forever, William. If, in fact, they ever really were all that good.
ReplyDeleteQuaint works for me -- you know, like the Geneva Convention. I'm not denying that the Dark Side exists, just that it rarely affords the victor more than a momentary triumph. Where's Pinochet now, for example -- or Hitler, for that matter? And I'd rather be thought of as wearing a metaphorical perriwig while typing my screeds, than hefting a cudgel.
Self defense is okay in my book, mind you, but I think you oughta save it for when you're actually attacked.