Jeff Goldstein at Protein Wisdom replied to part of my post from yesterday, along with a post by Tbogg, by claiming that we are "begging the question" of the Administration's illegality and "misrepresenting" -- "intentionally," of course -- the position of Bush defenders. Jeff is a diligent and conscientious vessel for every pro-Bush argument, and as a result, his posts always provide an excellent opportunity for surveying the current mindset and tactics of Bush followers. Along those lines, here are a few points to note in reply to Jeff's post:
(1) Amazingly, Jeff, along with a handful of quite tenacious individuals -- what Don Rumsfeld refers to, in another context, as "the dead-enders" -- are continuing to argue that Bush’s warrantless eavesdropping is consistent with FISA even though the Administration itself acknowledges that it is not.
From the beginning of this scandal, the Administration has admitted that the eavesdropping Bush ordered is outside the scope of FISA, but has argued that it was both necessary and justifiable for them to eavesdrop in ways that FISA prohibits. In fact, the principal argument advanced by the Administration is that the AUMF constitutes authority to act in violation of FISA because that resolution gave the Administration "an exception" to the law. That is the whole point of everything the Administration has been arguing. From the December 22, 2005 DoJ Memorandum:
By expressly and broadly excepting from its prohibition electronic surveillance undertaken "as authorized by statute," section 109 of FISA permits an exception to the "procedures" of FISA referred to in 18 U.S.C. § 2511 (2)(f) where authorized by another statute, even if the other authorizing statute does not specifically amend section 2511 (2)(f). The AUMF satisfies section 109's requirement for statutory authorization of electronic surveillance . . . .
Some might suggest that FISA could be read to require that a subsequent statutory authorization must come in the form of an amendment to FISA itself. But under established principles of statutory construction, the AUMF and FISA must be construed in harmony to avoid any potential conflict between FISA and the President's Article II authority as Commander in Chief. See, e.g., Zadvydas v. Davis, 533 U.S. 678,689 (2001); INS v. St. Cyr, 533 U.S. 289, 300 (2001).
Accordingly, any ambiguity as to whether the AUMF is a statute that satisfies the requirements of FISA and allows electronic surveillance in the conflict with al Qaeda without complying with FISA procedures must be resolved in favor of an interpretation that is consistent with the President's long-recognized authority.
Can this be any clearer? The Administration is arguing that it has an "exception to the ‘procedures of FISA,’" not that its surveillance complied with FISA. And contrary to Jeff’s footnote where he claims that the Administration is only arguing for this authority "hypothetically," the Administration is forced to argue this because it is admitting that it engaged in this surveillance "without complying with FISA procedures."
Along these same lines, here’s the new Time article describing the Bush Administration’s own rendition of events leading up to Bush’s order that the FISA courts be bypassed:
It didn't take long [after 9/11] before an aggressive idea emerged from the circle of Administration hawks. Liberalize the rules for domestic spying, they urged. Free the National Security Agency (NSA) to use its powerful listening technology to eavesdrop on terrorist suspects on U.S. soil without having to seek a warrant for every phone number it tracked. But because of a 1978 law that forbids the NSA to conduct no-warrant surveillance inside the U.S., the new policy would require one of two steps. The first was to revise the law. The other was to ignore it.In the end, George Bush tried the first. When that failed, he opted for the second.
In 2002 he issued a secret Executive Order to allow the NSA to eavesdrop without a warrant on phone conversations, e-mail and other electronic communications, even when at least one party to the exchange was in the U.S.-- the circumstance that would ordinarily trigger the warrant requirement. For four years, Bush's decision remained a closely guarded secret.
When even the Administration’s own admissions that it did not comply with FISA fail to prevent his admirers from arguing that FISA was adhered to, we really are in a realm of blind loyalty and reverence that is amazing, and a little alarming, to behold.
(2) Jeff, like many others, continues to advance the tiresome, manipulative, and facially preposterous claim that the New York Times and its source(s) "damaged" national security by revealing that the Administration failed to comply with the law when eavesdropping. Can anyone - anywhere - explain, just a little bit - just one time - how "national security has been damaged" by revelations that the Administration was eavesdropping without FISA-required warrants and judicial oversight rather than with them?
In campaigning for his own re-election and then for renewal of the Patriot Act, George Bush revealed infinitely more about how we monitor the communications of suspected terrorists and how we track other terrorist activities than the New York Times did in revealing the NSA FISA-bypass story. Before one runs around accusing the Times and its source(s) of treason, shouldn’t one identify which disclosure damaged national security and why? That would seem like a necessary prerequisite to making those sorts of accusations.
(3) What prompted the inclusion of Jeff on the list of blindly loyal Bush worshipers, in my post and apparently in Tbogg’s, was this statement of his, truly one of the most extraordinary I’ve read since this scandal began:
Leaks by unelected and entrenched foreign policy and intelligence bureaucrats (or perhaps elected members of the Congress?) meant to undermine the President in a time of war must carry with them consequences. Attempts by an adversarial press to supercede their mandate and actively work against a sitting administration while claiming neutrality and pretending to objectivity should have consequences.
As we are seeing, Bush supporters really do believe that the press acts improperly, even seditiously and criminally, when they - to use Jeff’s formulation - "actively work against a sitting administration," or, to put it more simply, when they commit the mortal sin of opposing His Majesty. To defend himself against Tbogg’s observation that Jeff’s advocacy of such limitations on the "press’s mandate" happens to conflict with the First Amendment, Jeff elaborates on his view of the press as follows:
To Tbogg’s way of thinking, a "free" press is a press whose authority to take facts and arrange them in such a way that even the rubes in flyover country learn the "appropriate" lessons, is somehow ontologically sacrosant—a position that, it seems to me, completely perverts the first amendment. . . .
For a democracy to function properly, however, our media is charged—for good reason— with presenting us facts dispassionately and in a their proper context(s) (or at the very least, signalling its biases up front) so that we can draw from those facts our own conclusions and then debate the public policy questions that arise from consideration of all the available information.
Jeff’s view of the press is exactly not what the press was intended to be -- some sort of dispassionate, mindless, uncritical conveyer of government statements and/or opinions by others. And the press was never that. Ever. Newspapers have always existed -- and have always had as their prime mandate -- to oppose, ridicule, attack, satirize, investigate and criticize those in power.
The Government will always be able to convey its own message. That is not the job of the press. Its most important function, by far, is to subject government claims to great scrutiny and skepticism. As long-time Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts recently noted:
As Thomas Jefferson put it: "I should not hesitate for a moment to prefer the latter." Jefferson knew that a free and adversarial press was the people's best defense against the excesses of their government and a fundamental building block of healthy democracy.
And in a warning remarkably applicable to the DoJ’s investigation and to the defense of it by Bush’s followers, Jefferson told us:
"Our first object should therefore be, to leave open to him all the avenues of truth. The most effectual hitherto found, is freedom of the press. It is therefore, the first shut up by those who fear the investigation of their actions."
To even speak of the media as "superceding its mandate" where it is reporting on (at best) highly controversial and potentially illegal Government conduct reveals a profound misunderstanding of the function of the press. The press was never intended to be some meek, uncritical mouthpiece for government power which Jeff’s view suggests. It was intended to be exactly the opposite.
(4) The fact that information is labeled "classified" by the Government does not mean it is truly classified. As I noted a couple of days ago, it is actually illegal (see Sec. 1.8) to classify information for the purpose of concealing unlawful acts by the Government (such as the President ordering that the law be violated when eavesdropping).
It is also worth remembering that this Administration has a history of improperly classifying information which exposes Government wrongdoing, such as the time when it classified the Taguba Report, which detailed government abuses in Abu Grahib, only to then -- once the report was leaked -- feign ignorance about why this plainly un-secret document was classified by the Administration.
While dedicated Bush followers like Jeff will never conclude that Bush acted illegally (if necessary, they will invoke the Yoo theory of "Bush Is The Law"), even they have to admit that there is substantial grounds for believing that he did. As I noted yesterday, even Powerline Paul -- Powerline! -- along with scores of other well-credentialed conservatives, acknowledge that. Even John Ashcroft (never one who was burdened by an excessive sensitivity to civil liberties) had serious misgivings (at least) about the legality of this program. None of that means, by itself, that Bush broke the law, but it does put it beyond reasonable dispute that there are ample grounds for believing that he did.
And that, by itself, makes whoever brought this concealed behavior to light a heroic whistleblower, by any definition. That’s what whistleblowers do. It’s what Mark Felt did in exposing the illegal conduct of the Nixon Administration. It’s what Joseph Darby did in bringing to light to the illegal and widespread abuses at Abu Gharib. It’s what Daniel Ellsberg did in leaking the Pentagon Papers and thereby exposing an array of Government lies about the Vietnam War. Such leaks are even how the media found out about all of the right wing's favorite Clinton scandals.
All whistle blowers disclose information that they were not permitted to disclose, or were expressly prohibited from disclosing, in order to expose wrongdoing which the wrongdoers were trying to conceal. That’s the nature of a whistle blower. They blow the whistle on people in power who are using that power to conceal their wrongdoing. To oppose the disclosure of classified information even when its purpose is to expose illegal behavior by our highest Government officials is to oppose the concept of whistleblowing itself, which is really what this whole DoJ investigation is about, because whistle blowers are our only hope for learning of illegal conduct by this Administration.
One can tell when a message is powerful when the messengers are attacked. The fact that Bush defenders have resorted to vicious attacks on the New York Times and its sources as criminals and traitors is yet more evidence that this scandal is a serious threat to the Administration, and its supporters know that.
Jeff Goldstein has become the wingnut's wingnut. They love him because he spends all his time finding every pro-Bush argument he can find, on every topic. Including, as you say, excuses which even Bush won't use.
ReplyDeleteHis site has become Bush ass-kissing Central for every wingnut. Unsurprisingly, Instapundit loves him and has made him his boy.
I think this scandal is building. There is a sea change here. All of this talk about Ashcroft, Comey, Bob Barr, Bruce Fein, the conservatives you mentioned, who object to what Bush did, will make it safe for non-liberals and even the whores in the media to condemn Bush.
ReplyDeleteWe need to get to the tipping point where only the Jeff Goldstein's and Instapundit's are left to defend Bush on this.
Can anyone - anywhere - explain, just a little bit - just one time - how "national security has been damaged" by revelations that the Administration was eavesdropping without FISA-required warrants and judicial oversight rather than with them?
ReplyDeleteActually, I can see one aspect to that that's been pointed out in the liberal blogs. As ReddHedd points out, every terrorism suspect will now have grounds to challenge their cases to find out whether illegal evidence was used against them. Fruit of the poisonous tree.
But should any criminals be released, the fault lies with the Bush administration for not following the law and prosecuting the cases properly.
Then again, I think national security has been hurt more by administration policy of holding innocent people in Guantanamo, mistreating Iraqis at Abu Ghraib, and other actions that cost us the moral high ground and international goodwill.
Jeff Goldstein does not believe in the First Amendment. It's really that simple. He actually argues that to believe in a free press is to "pervert" the First Amendment, and that the press is violating its "mandate" if it opposes Bush.
ReplyDeleteThat is sick, truly. Do you think there are a lot of other people who think that way?
ReplyDeleteWhen even the Administration’s own admissions that it did not comply with FISA fail to prevent his admirers from arguing that FISA was adhered to, we really are in a realm of blind loyalty and reverence that is amazing, and a little alarming, to behold.
You've done an outstanding job of driving home the point that the Administration itself concedes it has violated FISA. That would seem to undercut arguments I was considering yesterday that the technology involved somehow exculpates them, since they could just say that. Further, unless every one of the reports of DoJ officials who balked at authorizing the program are total fabrications, that also strongly suggests the program is illegal for violating FISA.
I would ask Jeff, and all the other pro-Bush bloggers who are defending the indefensible, do they really want this lawlessness to go on for the decades this nation will have to combat terrorism? Warrantless intercepts of citizens' communications will thereby become institutionalized. Do they understand why our Founders gave us a Fourth Amendment with warrant requirements? Do they think the DoJ, FBI and NSA can all be simply trusted, always, and no matter who is President, to never spy on people for venal or impermissible purposes, if there is *no* judicial oversight?
Jefferson et al. must be turning in their graves.
Your breathless assumptions aside, any evidence of any person who has been harmed in any way by this NSA signal monitoring?
ReplyDeleteWe don't know who they eavesdropped on or how they used the information obtained because they did it in secret without the judicial oversight required by law. That's sort of the point.
And having the Government listen to your conversations without having legal authority to do so is itself a harm. If you disagree with that, would you answer this:
Would you object if the Government announced tomorrow that it would start randomly eavesdropping on the telephone and computer communications and e-mail exchanges of American citizens with no warrant or judicial oversight? Would you mind at all if you learned today that the Government has been listening to all of your conversations in secret and without a warrant for the past year?
tomaig asks: Your breathless assumptions aside, any evidence of any person who has been harmed in any way by this NSA signal monitoring?
ReplyDeleteDo you know what liberty and privacy interests are? Spying on one's communications illegally violates them. That is so whether one is guilty or innocent of any crime.
"You cite the NYT's version of the story; I cite the NSA's and the President's. Lots of long, numbered, legalese-filled subsections don't change that fact."
ReplyDeleteThis, of course, isn't the New York Times' version; it's Al Gonzales' version.
Even the hyper-statist AG isn't hackish enough to claim that FISA authorized the wiretaps, because it clearly didn't. (I also like the "legalese filled subsections" line; in other words, you have no answer for the arguments that the President's actions vilated the statute, but you will continue to assert this anyway.
It's also, of course, absurd to people who believe that opposing Islamis cterrorism is not a conventional war are ipso facto arguing in bad faith. We should also be clear about the implicatiins of your argument: given that the "war" that we're "objectively" engaged in is logically infinite (you can't win a war against a method, or an always-in-flux collections of non-state actors), your proposed radical expansion of executive power will also be permanent.
I don't think it's a radical expansion, Scott.
ReplyDeleteNot radical? Who is the last President who argued that he could engage in Behavior X even where there was a Congressional statute making it a crime to do X?
And please check out Glenn's post from today on the hypocrisy of conservatives in relying on all sorts of silent, implied amendments (which Congress denies intending) and latent constitutional powers hidden in Article II. We're a long ways off from the judicial restraint that you and your fellow bush-lovers claim to believe in, aren't we?
I don't think it's a radical expansion, Scott. So long as Al Qaeda or other foreign terror organizations are contacting those in the country, I have no problem with our gathering signal intel on them under AUMF.
ReplyDeleteYou realize, don't you, that the way you phrase the argument assumes away the possibility of abuse, which is the only reason to have oversight in the first place. The FISA warrant procedure exists to make sure spying is being limited to the right people.
But beyond that, surely even you can see that this is a rather troubling legal justification? If the vague language of the AUMF overrides the very specific language of FISA, despite the fact that Congress clearly did not intend to override FISA, what exactly can the president NOT do in the name of fighting terrorism? Why are you so comfortable with this sort of "executive activism"? Doesn't it fly in the face of everything you believe as a conservative? Wouldn't you be more than a little alarmed if President Hilary Clinton was invoking such a novel legal theory in order to justify unreviewable executive power? One of the many problems with blindly trusting George W. Bush is that it, at least in theory, greatly limits your ability to criticize the actions of future presidents. But I'm sure consistency won't stop you.
Glenn Greenwald:
ReplyDeleteHow you could write so many paragraphs on "they admit they didn't comply with FISA is beyond me" more or less is unwarranted. Why is it a surprise or difficult to understand that if FISA doesn't apply to particular situations then FISA isn't complied with? How simple is that? Gee, If FISA doesn't apply then compliance with its requirements isn’t needed. The contention that FISA doesn't apply, and therefore wasn't complied with is in no way an admission of wrongdoing.
Well Duh, of course they admit they didn't comply with FISA because they rightly contend FISA DOESN'T APPLY to these particular pieces of surveillance.
Next you and many members of the press allege and argue they are supposed to be adversarial in our system of government. This is not only wrong but dangerous to the health of the country. If the press is adversarial that means it is their agenda to oppose the government, but the government doesn’t always need opposition.
The press is supposed to provide TRUTHFUL and UNBIASED information so a well informed citizenry can make up their own minds about what is going on in the country. That is NOT adversarial. It is in fact quite different from adversarial reporting. Adversarial reporting inevitably and by definition must lead to BIASED and AGENDA driven reporting which is antithetical to TRUTHFUL and UNBIASED reporting.
Finally, all these pious false arguments about the press and its need to be adversarial or truthful or whatever omit the press functions to make a profit, and it appears to many people in this country that the press is more interested in making money while advancing their own political AGENDA than it ever is in reporting TRUTHFUL unbiased FACTUAL information.
Says the "Dog"
None of that means, by itself, that Bush broke the law, but it does put it beyond reasonable dispute that there are ample grounds for believing that he did.
ReplyDeleteAnd that, by itself, makes whoever brought this concealed behavior to light a heroic whistleblower, by any definition.
A herioc whistleblower would have resigned his position on principle; would have publicly stated his reasons for resignation; and would have stood ready to suffer the consequences of his actions.
A criminal, on the other hand, secretly discloses classified information, conceals his identity, keeps his job.
A liberal contends, without evidence, that the motives of the secret criminal were pure and not malicious; contends that the exposure of illegal government activity justifies the actions of the secret criminal, even while admitting that the illegality of the government activity remains to be established; and fails to observe that the supposed illegal activity in this case was not a Watergate burglary, a Whitewater insider deal, or some other self intersted crime, but was activity undertaken in the furtherance of protecting our country.
Who is the last President who argued that he could engage in Behavior X even where there was a Congressional statute making it a crime to do X?
ReplyDeleteYou could have ended the question after "Who was the last President..." and you'd get the same answer.
At least I think you would. That's mostly because I have no clue as to what "Congressional statutes" are, and how they make crimes. Somehow, I get the feeling that it isn't my education that is lacking...
A criminal, on the other hand, secretly discloses classified information, conceals his identity, keeps his job.
ReplyDeleteRight. The viewer of classified information doesn't get to decide that his opinions override his obligation to uphold the terms of his security clearance.
If it's classified, and you pass it along, you've broken the law, period.
Everyone wants the rule of law enforced here, right?
Taking up the side of the NYT completely on this, this is the way they obviously viewed this story.
ReplyDeleteThey had a story which, to their reckoning, exposed a violation of the 4th Amendment. However, one of the authors of the story was in the process of writing a book on the topic.
So what was the logical thing to do? Why... sit on the story for a year until the book was finished.
So, clearly, it was infinitely more important to promote a book than to report a 4th Amendment violation.
So even the NYT itself doesn't think this story is as serious as you seem to think, Glenn.
And that's the honest view from the NYT side of this. How else can their actions be interpreted?
Even this view completely on the side of the NYT, based on what they DID, not what they SAID, reveals journalistic incomptence. That rag needs to be shut down for gross negligence, not because they're a "loyal opposition" paper.
Now, back on the Bush side of this, what national security violation was at stake?
The fact that al Qaeda now knows that we've got their phone numbers. Now they'll either throw their current cell phones away, or start using coding in their conversations that will not trip the keyword database.
Because of that, YOUR life is now in danger as well as mine.
A herioc whistleblower would have resigned his position on principle; would have publicly stated his reasons for resignation; and would have stood ready to suffer the consequences of his actions.?
ReplyDeleteSo you don't think that Mark Felt is a heroic whistleblower? Or Joseph Darby?
Anyone who leaks information demonstrating that the President of the United States is breaking the law - especially this President, given the fanatical view of his followers that he's a wartime president with infinite powers - is taking huge risks. Why should that person have to lose their livelihood, too, all in order to prove that his motives are pure? That sounds irrational, and rather vindictive.
A criminal, on the other hand, secretly discloses classified information, conceals his identity, keeps his job.
So you consider Mark Felt a criminal, then? It would have been best if he just kept his mouth shut and Richard Nixon could have finished out his second term in peace?
contends that the exposure of illegal government activity justifies the actions of the secret criminal, even while admitting that the illegality of the government activity remains to be established;
For the record, I don't believe that the illegality "remains to be established." The Administration admitted it eavesdropped in violation of FISA. FISA is a law. Acting in violation of the law is illegal. All of the information necessary to establish that is known.
was activity undertaken in the furtherance of protecting our country.
So you know how they used this secret eavesdropping power, do you? The idea behind FISA is that they were required to have judicial oversight to make sure they don't abuse the eavesdropping power. But they didn't have that oversight (because they broke the law), and did it in secret. So how could you possibly claim to know that the eavesdropping "was activity undertaken in the furtherance of protecting our country"?
It is because George Bush said this was the case, and in Bush we Trust?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that al Qaeda now knows that we've got their phone numbers. Now they'll either throw their current cell phones away, or start using coding in their conversations that will not trip the keyword database.
Yeah, cuz those stupid, wholly unsophisticated Al Qaeda members hadn't previously thought that the United States govt might be tracking their cell phone numbers or looking for keywords in telephone and email communications. It was only the news that there was a warrantless surveillance program in place that put such outre ideas into their naive little heads.
Please. I am not the least bit fearful that my life has become more imperiled since the NYT published this story. I am, however, quite alarmed that the President I voted for believes he is not only above the law, but constitutes it. The prospect of decades of warrantless surveillance of my fellow citizens, beyond judicial review, is appalling to me.
I do so love it when commenters denounce a "biased" and "agenda-driven" press but utterly fail to mention or denounce institutions such as Fox News. You see, only Liberals have agendas. Conservatives (apparently) do not.
ReplyDeleteI also don't understand the mentality that the only freedoms we as Americans should expect are freedom from terrorism, or more specifically, freedom not to be blown up by Al-Qaeda. All other such notions of privacy can thus be sacrificed if the Government will please, please keep us alive.
Finally this notion of someone "being hurt" by the illegal spying seems to refer to some sort of bodily harm. In a free society, the rights of the individual extend far beyond this, into rights of privacy. We know Rice gave the NSA permission to spy on the U.N. in the run-up to the Iraq war. We know the F.B.I. has been spying on leftist activists (and some liberatarians). This is the harm done a government bypassing the court to achieve it's ends. The "damage" is in no way limited to physical injury; it is instead damage against some of the fundamental ideals of a free society such as ours.
Conservatives may be willing to destroy our civil liberties in order to save them, but liberals are not.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteWe have words to describe a person that betrays secrets: snitch, stoolie, squealer, rat fink, traitor, etc. Hero is not among them. Mark Felt was no hero. And if he betrayed classified information without permission, he committed a crime, regardless of his motives.
Joseph Darby, on the other hand, reported to his superiors what he considered to be misconduct. He followed channels rather than committing a crime, and some might conclude that his actions were heroic. Fine.
The NSA leakers are in the mold of Mark Felt, not Joseph Darby.
Why should [the snitch] have to lose their livelihood, too, all in order to prove that his motives are pure?
Classic. If you believe strongly that X is true and that X should be disclosed, but the disclosure of X is a crime, you should exhaust the available internal processes to change X. If you cannot get X changed, and you still believe that it is imperative that X should be disclosed, then you should take responsibility for your actions. This is called being an adult.
For the record, I don't believe that the illegality "remains to be established."
OK. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "None of that means, by itself, that Bush broke the law, but it does put it beyond reasonable dispute that there are ample grounds for believing that he did."
Finally:
So how could you possibly claim to know that the eavesdropping "was activity undertaken in the furtherance of protecting our country"?
I don't know for sure, any more than you know whether the motive of the NSA leaker is a deep seated hatred of President Bush, or some pure motive. If it turns out the motive was hatred, will you still be a criminal apologist?
Glenn and the rest of the leftnuts here:
ReplyDeleteLeakers with pure motives can violate the law and should be rewarded, but a PRESIDENT seeking to protect us with even PURER motives should be impeached?
Is there no end to your circular logic and duplicity? Are you this deluded that you can not see the purely political point of view rationalizations you are deluding yourselves and each other?
If good motives means its ok to violate the law then the President's good motives in protecting us would have to count as well.
If motive good or bad doesn't affect whether the President can ignore FISA then the same is true for the cowardly criminal leakers right?
Note: I'm not conceding the President broke the law because he ample constitutional and statutory authority to believe in good faith that FISA did NOT apply to the surveillance in question. On the other hand these criminal leakers do not have ANY constitutional or statutory basis to claim they had the right to ignore the law when they made these criminal leaks.
Then Glenn says that these good intentioned criminal leakers shouldn't be forced to lose their jobs and careers, etc., but he and the rest of you hypocrites and liars of the left had no problem with Scooter Libby a well intentioned public servant workng 80 hours a week for the benefit of our country having his life and livelihood ruined solely because he didn't properly remember a single 2 year old conversation.
Sometimes the hypocrisy and duplicity of the left disgusts me.
Says "the Dog"
@Hypatia: Yeah, cuz those stupid, wholly unsophisticated Al Qaeda members hadn't previously thought that the United States govt might be tracking their cell phone numbers or looking for keywords in telephone and email communications.
ReplyDeleteUh... you'd better wake up on this matter. Most of the "experts" out there trying to explain how a keyword database works are sinking and strangling in Conversational Tech Talk, and the people listening, or TRYING to listen to them, aren't getting it.
There are ZERO innocent calls that are tracked by the system. It requires certain keywords to trip the monitoring. If you are not discussing blowing up the Brooklyn Bridge or some such (in any one of numerous languages), your call is not going to be monitored.
Hmmm... I've got an idea.
Why don't YOU explain how a keyword database works, and I will either compliment you on your accumen or sit here and laugh my a$$ off.
You see, I know EXACTLY how that type of system works, and there's no reason to believe that Al Qaeda or any other terrorists might have sussed that they were being tracked. After all, Al Qaeda was dumb enough to use satellite phones, which we only had to triangulate to find their location... that is, until some idiot in the MSM announced to the world that that's how we were tracking them. They stopped using satellite phones.
But there is no reason to believe that they might have caught on to the keyword database.
mamapajamas, get a grip. Programs like Echelon have been known about for years, and indeed, since the mid-90s I've been mindful of this technology in my private email. For example, I am an ardent opponent of the war on (people who use some) drugs, but when exchanging email on the subject, I usually avoid directly discussing, by name, the illicit substances. I am not eager to come to the attention of the DEA (which does not like us anti-prohibitionists, even when, as is true of me, we do not use any of the illicit drugs), and have pretty much concluded that could be a distinct possibility if I openly spoke about drugs and drug policy in email.
ReplyDeletePeople have been talking about this tech for many years, and all over the Internet you can read about it and its focus on keywords. At my above link, you can read:
Once the information is gathered and directed to central processing areas, Echelon searches through it all for selected words. Advanced speech recognition software is apparently used to sort through telephone calls, and keyword recognition software searches through email and faxes.
The Echelon keyword detection system probably works in a similar way to a standard internet search engine.
The notion that Al Qaeda -- or nearly any sentient being who has been online for the past 15 years -- would have run into discussion of keyword searches only by a NYT article in December of 2005, is beyond preposterous. People were paranoid about this sort of thing way back when I was romping at CompuServe in 1996.
OK... I'm impressed.
ReplyDeleteSo now how do you suppose that an innocent person is harmed by a system that only monitors discussions a terrorist would have?
Especially when those discussion are coming ONLY from a set list of telephone numbers that were taken from the speed dials and "most recent calls" of captured jihadis?
mamapajamas: You don't know who is being monitored or based on what criteria, because the whole project is classified. Worse, no federal judge knows, either.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you are going to rely on Bush press releases that insist only really bad guys are being monitored, well, I would not let Mother Theresa run such a program without judicial oversight. It isn't that Bush and his Admin tend more toward abuse and the corruption of power than any other could or has, it is that no small cabal of human beings can or should be trusted with such indefinite power without some checks and balances in place. Cf. Publius.
As someone who truly enjoys adding emphasis to posts using the cross out function key not available here, I "can't" find a way to tell you how much I enjoy the "bad faith" with which you offer your "reasons." I hope I am not "begging the question" of what a suck up I now "appear" to be "intentionally."
ReplyDeleteAt another blog I was once told I was "glib" for offering a critique of what "we" should do about torture. Then I was "misrepresented" as a "f*cking child."
I continue to be "impressed" with how "hot" and bothered some get when people actually engage the argument, rather than just "taking" it and "receiving" the wisdom.
Hypatia: well, I would not let Mother Theresa run such a program without judicial oversight.
ReplyDeleteAre you for real? You really think that a black-robe transforms someone into saint????
Judicial oversight??? People who sit on a bench in lifetime appointments and are responsible to NO ONE????
You're kidding, right?
You don't know who is being monitored or based on what criteria, because the whole project is classified. Worse, no federal judge knows, either.
So you REALLY think the NSA has time to sit around listening in on Hillary's cookie recipies?
You've just proven to me that you have NO CLUE how the keyword database works. All you know about it are some things published in popular articles. I pay my mortgage building databases.
The NSA is monitoring at least 300 phone numbers that we KNOW about... the 300 that were pulled off the number database in the cell phone of the al Qaeda bigshot who was recently captured in Pakistan.
Besides, in spite of the whining and groaning from the Senate Democrats, they ALREADY KNEW about this program because they were briefed on it before it was started. And any one of them could have called in an oversight review at any time. The Democrats have been lying about this detail since the story broke a couple of weeks ago.
To me, it doesn't sound like a good idea to use the keyword database to listen in on political enemies who might call in a review at any time!
But maybe you like to take big risks :).
RE: (2) Jeff, like many others, continues to advance the tiresome, manipulative, and facially preposterous claim that the New York Times and its source(s) "damaged" national security by revealing that the Administration failed to comply with the law when eavesdropping.
ReplyDelete+++++++++++++++++
His argument can only be based on either:
(a) the delusion that terrorists don't already know they can be tapped through a FISA authorization (in which case, they must read a little background as Bush Junior himself, in which case, they don't know about this scandal, in which case, they STILL don't know.
OR
(b) The taps this program revealed were *not* taps that could ever have been authorized through FISA, therefore, *not* terrorists (hypothetically, Daschle's office, Dem campaign phones or IM, Quaker meetings, Anna Nicole Smith's underthings)
Either way, the Hoekstra/Jeff contention is laughable. Parallel to Kissinger arguing exposing the secret bombing of Cambodia told the enemy too much about our actions -- as if they somehow didn't realize they were being bombed.
thedog,
ReplyDeleteThere are laws that protect whistle-blowers if they are reporting illegal actions.
Also, the President had many options at his disposal to use to "protect" us that were not violations of the law. Presidents do not get free passes during wartime without explicit permission from Congress.
If the President can't protect us without breaking the law, then he should change the law, not decide to break it.
Judicial oversight??? People who sit on a bench in lifetime appointments and are responsible to NO ONE????
ReplyDeleteFederal judges can be impeached and removed from office. See, there's this system of checks and balances...Wait, no, we just trust everything President Bush tells us, without oversight from the other branches of government, and that's okay. Because the President is a saint, even without a black robe.
The NSA is monitoring at least 300 phone numbers that we KNOW about... the 300 that were pulled off the number database in the cell phone of the al Qaeda bigshot who was recently captured in Pakistan.
Great. And that sort of wiretapping easily qualifies for FISA. So why doesn't the administration get a fucking FISA warrant?
Oh, and you're sure spouting off a lot of details about the NSA's activities and the way their top secret keyword-based system works. Doesn't that endanger national security?
And any one of them could have called in an oversight review at any time.
Not when the very fact that they were informed after the fact was classified, and couldn't even be disclosed to their staffers. (Note: they're probably lying about this, because mamapajamas was totally listening in at the time.) But other than that, you're right. The Democrats, as the majority Congressional party, can convoke official hearings on whatever they want. Oh, wait...
Fortunately, with leftist nuts like Senators Specter, Lugar, and Graham in favor of further Congressional scrutiny, perhaps we will see further resurgence of grown-ups in the Republican Party, and the Dog and mamapajamas can run back to the nursery. Then again, the above senators "knew all about" the program and "approved" it, so I'm a little confused why they want investigations now.
So now how do you suppose that an innocent person is harmed by a system that only monitors discussions a terrorist would have?
ReplyDeleteThis is a highly amusing statement coming from someone claiming technical expertise as loudly and repeatedly as you have. Though admittedly, perhaps your expertise doesn't branch out from IR enough to know exactly how error-ridden speech recognition remains, regardless of its steady and impressive progress of late...
(By the way, your firm insistence in repeatedly and constantly refering to keyword lists as keyword databases is a nice touch. It makes it sound more important and technical-like, and plus it makes you sound so much more edjumakated than all us poor, ignorant unsophisticated folk...)
(And yet, you marvel that it's hard to explain technology to laypeople...)
Oops. That last was @mamapajamas...
ReplyDelete@ Nombrilisme Vide said...
ReplyDeleteThis is a highly amusing statement coming from someone claiming technical expertise as loudly and repeatedly as you have. Though admittedly, perhaps your expertise doesn't branch out from IR enough to know exactly how error-ridden speech recognition remains, regardless of its steady and impressive progress of late...
Uhm hmmm. The only numbers that are even being monitored are those that were in the cell phones of terrorist operatives that were captured. The caller is KNOWN to be NOT innocent. When the monitor is tripped, human operators listen to the recording, eliminating your problem with speech recognition systems. The possibility of the kind of error you're talking about exists in missing a coded call from one terrorist to another, in which case, NO ONE involved in the call is monitored. That's an error on the side of helping the innocent.
By the way, your firm insistence in repeatedly and constantly refering to keyword lists as keyword databases is a nice touch.
Sorry, but what I'm talking about is a keyword database. What you are talking about, a keyword list, is a concept that has been around at least since 1966, when I first started working with mainframes.
A keyword database is the new, improved version of the keyword list. To put it in layman's terms, as you suggest, it's a hell of a lot smarter than a keyword list.
There are ZERO innocent calls that are tracked by the system. It requires certain keywords to trip the monitoring.
ReplyDeleteAh, that must be why my spam-blocking software works perfectly.
If there are 'ZERO innocent calls', and 500 intercepts per day are actively monitored, then basic logic suggests that there are thousands of 'terrorist calls' and thus thousands of Al Qaeda-linked individuals in the US.
Given that there have been a handful of arrests, doesn't that mean your beloved Leader is allowing thousands of people to remain out of custody, in spite of rulings from Luttig's circuit granting him the power to lock up Padille as an enemy combatant?
Quite.
So, you believe that the program is 100% accurate and that Bush is justified in letting all of these people making calls and sending emails to go about their business? And you think that's 'defending the homeland'?
Utter pretzel logic from the wingnuts.
To all the Bush apologists:
ReplyDelete1) What if it was PRESIDENT HILLARY CLINTON that did all these things that Bush has done? Admit it: You all would be falling all over each other in finest Pavlov-dog fashion to denounce her as a jackbooted dictatorial lesbian.
2) Secret police are pretty bad at fighting external threats and terror. But they are very, very good at creating terror in the hearts and minds of the populace.
The question you should be asking yourselves is: Why does Bush want us to be frightened and cowed all the time? What things does he not want us to notice? (Such as his failure to effectively fight terrorists.)
3) When terrorists went after the WTC in 1993, Clinton, using the criminal-justice system, had the perps nailed within weeks. Bush, on the other hand, used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq. (Google "rumsfeld go massive" for one of the many proofs thereof.)
Looks to me like terrorism is going to be a permanent feature of the geopolitical landscape for a very long while, certainly for decades if not centuries. Do the defenders of Bush over there on the Right expect us to suspend our belief in the Constitution until such time as Dear Leader deems that the GWOT is over?
ReplyDeleteDear fellow-travellers.
ReplyDeleteI have found the button.
The second ammendment, so beloved of wingnuttia, exists only to support the first ammendment. No first, then the second vanishes in a *poof* of originalism.
Pointing this out on wignut blogs is about the fastest way to get your IP banned yet.
As for Eschalon and other keyword surveillance, I always take the opposite tack. Use keywords as often as possible in innocuous conversations. Clog the system.
Just one correction: I believe Atrios pointed out that the New York Times attributed the leak not to one leaker but a dozen or more.
ReplyDeleteTherefore the usual 'he's disgruntaled' wouldnt apply.
Steve wrote:
ReplyDeleteI also like how anonymous people on the Internet, mamapajamas among them, are somehow familiar with every detail of the secret wiretap program and can assure us, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no one is being tapped except al-Qaeda operatives.
So true. Where did mamapajamas get this information? I hope she shares the name of this treasonous leaker with the proper authorities.
Glenn, call Goldstein a chickenhawk and you too can be the recipient of one his manly dick-slappin' threats.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing Un-reasonable about listenning to Al-Qaeda talk in this time of war. If the "Yellow" Party wants to disagree, let them run on that in 2006 & 2008. If your party does, we will win again.
ReplyDeleteIt will become an outrage when a Democrat is elected President. I don't like Hillary but I would love to see her get elected in '08 just so I can see how fast the wingnuts will do a 180 on this.
ReplyDeleteJeff Goldstein, for one.
Welcome to the 4th Reich!
ReplyDeleteInstead of Camps and the SS, we have the SS and technology.
The only terrorists I see are are the politicos and newswhores in the beltway.
@mamapajamas
ReplyDeleteUhm hmmm. The only numbers that are even being monitored are those that were in the cell phones of terrorist operatives that were captured.
Hmm? Really? So it's a small, finite list of numbers, nice and slow to change? Tell me again why the NSA can't go out and get FISA warrants, tikay?
My understanding of this whole mess was NOT that it was strictly about physically captured numbers. At all. It was about throwing taps onto people calling or called by such numbers. An' maybe then people calling or called by "suspicious" numbers that had called the captured numbers. Et cetera? Regardless, we're talking a larger, more fluid pool of numbers than you imply. That's been one of the major justifications for the profound need to avoid overs- erm, to streamline the process...
The caller is KNOWN to be NOT innocent.
Um, no. One party is suspected to be guilty of something. Tell me, if we've been exploiting these techniques to good end (i.e., they're useful), then why hasn't our Beloved Leader loudly proclaimed the capture of many of these not-innocents poised like vipers within the homeland? And don't even try to tell me they have but were too discrete to publicise it, after their shrill, ill-advised crowing about Padilla or Ghailani...
When the monitor is tripped, human operators listen to the recording, eliminating your problem with speech recognition systems.
Again, I think you fail to realise the implications of what you're saying. How, pray tell, is a monitor tripped? Is it when a certain keyword is recognized? Or just when a number is called? If it's the former, how is the quality of speech recognition not an issue? And if it's the latter why even mention keywords, as they'd be entirely irrelevant? Though I must say that the reports I've read make me lean to the former, just in terms of quantity of numbers being monitored. Or rather, speculation about quantity of numbers, as this has been going on without any oversight...
But please, clarify: is it massive, fluid quantities of numbers, thus requiring far-less-than-perfect technology to recogonize "suspicious" conversations, a reason to discuss keywords, and providing at least some feeble justification for administration claims that they HAD to forgo warrants? Or is it a relatively small, relatively static pool of numbers, monitored one and all by humans, thus providing accurate analysis, eliminating the need for keywords to arise in discussion, and stripping away any hope of the administration claiming that warrants were infeasible?
A keyword database is the new, improved version of the keyword list. To put it in layman's terms, as you suggest, it's a hell of a lot smarter than a keyword list.
You miss my point. There's no reason to mention a technical distinction in discussion with non-specialists if you're not gonna clarify its significance.
But now you've got me curious. Please, enlighten me. What is it that makes a keyword database smarter than a keyword list? Or do you just mean it's more efficient? Explain (or cite) in as painfully technical detail as necessary; you'll probably not lose me...
You realize, don't you, that the way you phrase the argument assumes away the possibility of abuse, which is the only reason to have oversight in the first place. The FISA warrant procedure exists to make sure spying is being limited to the right people. - Anonymous Liberal
ReplyDeleteAbuse is not the only reason to have oversight ... just an important reason.
Speaking as a scientist, allow me to state another reason -- it's always a good idea to have anything of importance reviewed simply to know you are on the right track. Having your work checked is valuable to you even if you are not a crook, abuser of power, etc. -- it's part and parcel of making sure you get things right to have someone outside of your organization check your work!
Government budgets and public servants' time are not infinite. There is a fixed sum to this game and spying on the wrong person means that we are not spying on the right person. If BushCO is spreading too wide a net with unreasonable searches, they are allowing more opportunities for the small fish (and, as the London bombings showed, it doesn't take a big fish to do a lot of damage) to get through. It is better then for people on the executive branch to have their work objectively checked and to have focused investigations then to get distracted barking up wrong trees while real terrorists are getting away.
Indeed, one can argue that, by revealing what BushCO is doing, it does harm national security by revealing the admin is casting such a wide net. Where before terrorists might have had reason to think they were, as individuals, under suspicion, now they know that the admin is fighting terrorism by looking through a whole haystack and their chances of capturing an individual terrorist are actually pretty low (my research occassionally deals with datamining ... it doesn't always work that well no matter what BushCO might say -- you always have a bunch of false negatives and false positives) ... so they might be emboldened to actually do something to harm us.
But the fault is not with the leaker but with Bush & CO for relying on such a cockamamy scheme "to keep us safe" in the first place. If BushCO chooses to piss into the wind, they should stop complaining when it "rains".
"Smarter" keyword database?
ReplyDeleteYou're not an expert, mamapajamas, you're a shill.
The intellectual relationship between your terrorism-keyword database and the various proprietary keyword and key-URL databases used in "child-protecting" censorware is becoming more clear.
I am quite sure that you have no way to refute the following assertion: NSA key-word triggering is innefective at preventing terrorism for the same reasons that nanny-ware is ineffective at preventing children from viewing "innappropriate" material on the internet.
The reasons are: false-negatives (real terrorist conversations not flagged because they didn't use a keyword & porn web sites not flagged because they weren't in the nanny database) and false-positives (innocent conversations flagged because they used keywords & non-porn sites flagged because they have to do with breast cancer awareness or some such).
With censorware, the BSing companies must maintain secrecy over their URL- and keyword-lists, ostensibly because they are proprietary secrets, but in actuality to prevent revealing their overwhelming flaws.
The NSA's keyword databases suffer from the same problems, substituting "national security" for "proprietary" as the professed reason for the secrecy, while failure and unsuitablility to the task remain the true reasons...
Hey, the facts are biased. Everyone knows that.
ReplyDeleteHey, what do we need a Bill of Rights for? What do we need opposition parties for? Congress? independent judiciary? those should be pretty unnecessary now that this nation has finally found its One True King in Dubya. He has only pure intentions to protect the children of America from harm. He is the only one with those proper desires. There is no need to distrust him. He is good. He will not harm me if I believe he is good. Those who do not believe in his goodness do not deserve his protection.
ReplyDeleteLets face it. Bush needs to be dictator.
ReplyDeleteWhen he first got selected, he joked about it, publicly, on at least 3 ocaissions. I paraphrase: "Live sure would be a heckuvalot easier if this was a dictatorship...as long as I'm dictator." Since then, his administration-
* Turned a $400BB surplus into a $400BB deficit
* Was asleep at the wheel on 9/11
* Presided over the 9/11 whitewash
* Lied about the causus belli to start an elective war and occupation of a ME country
* Outed a CIA spy that was tracking terrorist banking/oil connections/WMD
* Has marginalized moderation in the ME
* Never found Osama
I think pResident Bush has a big problem....and it is growing. National security and his personal security are becoming one and the same. Who do you think George Bush fears the most? Al Qaeda? Or a Democratic majority in Congress, Jan. 2007?
Do I think Bush would abuse the power of wiretapping for domestic political purposes? You betcha....
So Bush can supercede his literal mandate under FISA anytime he wants, but the press can't supercede its (entirely imaginary) mandate? I suppose the underlying element of consistency here is the complete contempt for the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
ReplyDeleteI think we should copy those words about "consequences for opposing a sitting president" against the day when a Democrat occupies the White House. Maybe we can tease them about sending them to Gitmo....
I think "devotees", "cultists", or "disciples" is more appropriate than "followers" at this point.
ReplyDeleteHoly Mackarel!
ReplyDeleteYou have an administration which is arguing it can round up and detain anyone, even US citizens, anonymously and indefinetely as long as it cites (or rather, doesn't, as the administration really doesn't think it has to say anything about these cases, much less let any sort of independent judiciary view them) "the war on terror".
You have an administration which basically can't be bothered to uphold the Constitution of the United States.
You basically have an administration run amuck; an administration seeing itself as above the law and with the power to do just about everything it damned well pleases, as long as "national security" and "fighting the war on terror" is used as an excuse.
And people are still defending this because Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, in Supreme Wartime President Bush we must trust?
Can't tell you how happy I am to live in a communist Utopia called Denmark.
I just love the desperate spin by Bush sycophants. Why in the world should we trust Bush about wiretapping when he ignored intelligence about Al Quaida's intentions to attack us on 9-11 and he manipulated intelligence about WMDs in Iraq?
ReplyDeleteI don't trust Bush's intentions because he has repeatedly violated that trust through his dishonesty and his reckless actions.
MamaPajamas, I'm a database developer by trade, too, and I call big time bullshit. The fact that some 50% of complex software projects fail and are abandoned (ask the FBI about this) should be a constant reminder that software is not perfect, and requires a clear definition of what it does to know if it's working properly. That's what tests do - they help you find those cases where the algorithm doesn't work, and address them.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you're right, and NSA's algorithms - whatever they are- actually do a good job filter out people who may want to commit terrorism from those who don't. But based on that 50% failure rate, and the complexity of what the NSA's trying to do (AI, speech recognition, machine linguistics, pattern inference), I'd say there's a damn big chance that the algorithm has plenty cases where it doesn't work or isn't tested. That's where the law comes in - people need redress when something goes wrong.
I would never, ever hire someone who puts that much faith in some piece of software that s/he or someone else has built, because if they trust their own software that much, how will they ever really debug it?
As a followup, MamaPajamas:
ReplyDeleteas touchingly sincere as your use of the concept of a keyword may be, I don't think the NSA is running:
SELECT last_name,first_name,country_of_origin, terrorism_status FROM communications WHERE communication_text LIKE '%al-Qaeda%'
So don't pull out that "I know databases" bullshit.
mamapajamas said "The fact that al Qaeda now knows that we've got their phone numbers. Now they'll either throw their current cell phones away, or start using coding in their conversations that will not trip the keyword database. "
ReplyDeleteWow!! They just found that out now? If they're that stupid kinda makes you wonder how they were able to hijack 4 airplanes and fly them into buildings. I guess they could have never known until this story that the US government was listening in on their communications.
I would like to know which "keywords" our right-wing friends believe the NSA is searching on that would tip them off to dangerous terrorists.
ReplyDeleteAre they words like "bomb", for example? "Glycerine"? "C4"? "Airplane"? I mean, what? Tell me the words that only terrorists would be using that would be a tip-off that the author is a terrorist rather than, say, some obsessive blogger types having just the sort of discussions we are having here?
I discuss illegal drugs all the time, even though I don't use them. My work involves discussing pornography all the time, even though I've never much been interested in actually looking at the stuff. I talk about terrorism all the time - just like you guys - even though I'm not a terrorist.
So exactly what would a mechanical search of my communiations reveal about any illegal activities on my part? Nothing, of course, because talking about them has nothing to do with actually doing them.
A mechanical search would reveal a lot of innocent people talking about these subjects - a lot of great big haystack to be looking for that needle in. Only a targetted search with probable cause has any real likelihood of actually finding a terrorist.
So, in terms of actually protecting us from terrorism, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for mass eavesdropping of any kind. There is no justification for spying on Americans without probable cause. There is only a massive waste of resources to no good purpose.
There are only two reasons for making these searches without warrants. One is to spy on people who have been singled out not because they are law-breakers but because they are politically problematic for an out of control administration. The other is because you are a fuckwit who hasn't got a clue how to find criminals.
Maybe this conversation would sound a little bit different if we were talking about looking for the terrorists who used anthrax to terrorize the Democratic leadership in 2001 - because then we wouldn't be looking for someone from Al Qaeda, we'd be looking for someone who is in all probability a white, Christian conservative.
Why, perhaps then the keyword we'd be searching on is "church".
The idea that these warentless phone taps came about because they found a cell phone in afghanistan from a taliban soldier with american #'s on it and had to act before they could get a FISA warrent is ludicrous.
ReplyDeletea) FISA warrents can be retroactively granted, so the timelyness is moot.
b) FISA has had 16,000 applications and has granted all but 3-5. It is ludicrous to think that they would deny monitoring the calls from those numbers, especailly during active war operations.
Logically, the only reason Bush decieded to go around FISA is that FISA would most likely reject the warrents in the circumstances that he wanted to act on.
So lets think about why,
a) Was the information that led to the taps from such an unreliable source that FISA would have blocked the warrent? ie (A Cia agent's sister's boyfriend's cousin's dogwalker heard online in a blog that Saddam uses 323-555-2333 to call Osama)
b) Was the information so vague that a huge number of phone numbers would have to be monitored? ie (We found a piece of paper from Osama with the word Verizon on it)
c) Was the information gleened using methods that were illegal? (Suspect A stated while being waterboarded in Poland that his contact used disposable MetroPCS phones in San Francisco)
d) Was the information nothing to do with Terrorism? (Lets see what Cindy Sheehan was been talking about)
e) Was the reason's completely unreleated to any information and just on speculation? (MetroPCS is nearly anonymous and is cash based. A terrorist would most likely use this, lets monitor all their calls)
A short play about keywords
ReplyDeleteK: Hey, Joe, it's me. Got you on the speaker phone here...
J: Hey! How'd your pitch go? Sounded like these guys were ready to buy the Brooklyn Bridge from you...
K: It bombed. You wanna grab a drink with me?
J: Yeah, sure - hey, did you hear a click just now?
K: Ah, it's probably just this damn cel. I've been wantin' to get a newer one, but I'm waiting for that Cobalt Palm thing to come out.
J: Yeah, I know you're crazy for those Palms. So what went wrong?
K: I had Al with me -- you know Al?
J: Kinda...
K: Short guy, glasses?
J: Oh, yeah! Wasn't he that guy at lunch with the gas mask, back with that anthrax scare?
K: Probably. This guy... He is so dumb, it's insane. Anyway, Al said, er, hang on, merging... OK, we are this close to closing the deal and Al blurts out something about the new version they're working on in the Vidalia labs... Well all of a sudden everybody wants to know what's wrong with the one they're buying, they want the upgrade for free, or they want the new features now -- you know you give 'em an inch... Alla sudden, the damn president of the company shows up...
J: This clicking is driving me nuts.
K: I can't hear a thing. Anyways, this guy goes nuclear on me. He's accusing us of all this shit -- I've got this CEO, president, screaming in my face and I'm sitting there thinking "I am about to kill this mother..."
PREDATOR DRONE: [whoosh]
K'S CAR: [kaboom]
J: Hello?
Even if the AUMF does extend to FISA (an extraordinary contention and not one Bush & Co. seemed to actually believe), it does not vitiate the need to obtain some form of warrant under the 4th Amendment. The congress can't give away a fundamental right, or give the president more power than s/he has under Article 2. See In re Sealed Case.
ReplyDelete"Leakers with pure motives can violate the law and should be rewarded, but a PRESIDENT seeking to protect us with even PURER motives should be impeached?"
ReplyDeleteUmm, we're fighting a war in Iraq because Bush lied us into it. Now he wants absolute power to run the war he lied us into. How do YOU explain the Downing Street Memos? Representative John Conyers came out a couple weeks ago with a report almost 300 pages long, with about 1,000 references, "The Constitution in Crisis," that details the documentary evidence that Bush lied us into war, among other things. John Conyers is the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, and has been re-elected about 20 times. He's calling the president a liar who lied our dead soldiers into war. They knew the WMD evidence was bad, but they had a war to start.
So, please don't talk about pure, snow-white motives with this president.
I agree with the Conyers report. If Conyers was making false allegations, he'd be putting his reputation and career on the line, and Conyers himself would be a traitor, undermining a president at a time of war. But the evidence has now piled so high, that it takes a 300 page report to summarize the best evidence, and we haven't even had any Congressional investigation yet. I'll throw a little challenge out there to the Bush supporters: Read Representative John Conyers report on the Constitution in Crisis and find holes in it. I've read about 100 pages, and I'd say even if you took away half of it, it still paints a detailed picture of a treasonous president.
It's because of reams of evidence like that, that we are, shall we state, suspicious that a president who lied us into a war now asserts that he has unchecked war powers to run war operations, when he's willing to start war based on lies and then lie to coverup the lies.
How far will robots go to support this Buttwipe-in-Chief? Question for wingnuts: If the Feds cane rapping on your door with a fiat demanding that they must assfuck your hubby/wife in the name of national security and it is signed by W, what do you do and why?
ReplyDeleteEric E: as touchingly sincere as your use of the concept of a keyword may be, I don't think the NSA is running:
ReplyDeleteSELECT last_name,first_name,country_of_origin, terrorism_status FROM communications WHERE communication_text LIKE '%al-Qaeda%'
Frankly, I don't see why the NSA would bother to run anything like that. All they have to do is track the phone numbers. The database comes into operation when one of those "hot" phone numbers contacts someone else inside the US.
And, Anon, your cute conversation between nominally innocent people who are being tapped left out one vital element: The human operators who listen to the playback. They'll know whether or not the conversation is "hot" even if the computer doesn't.
There is entirely too much speculation going on here. And that is the problem.
No one (at least no one with any degree of common sense) has accused the NSA of tapping ANYONE innocent. All accusers have merely speculated that the NSA might tap someone innocent. That crap is reminescent of the film Minority Report. Let's lock up the criminal before he commits a crime!
Further, the NSA already has a full plate just tapping calls from the Al Qaeda numbers. Repeat... the INCOMING NUMBERS ARE NOT INNOCENT. They ARE Al Qaeda contacts. The numbers were taken from the cell phones of Al Qaeda who were captured. It is the receivers of those calls that we need to look out for. Maybe they're calling a contact in the US. Or maybe they're just calling Auntie Jasmin in Dearborn to check on her ulcers.
POLITICAL spying is something that I seriously doubt NSA has TIME for, and further, it is something that the politicians can do all on their own WITHOUT using the NSA's programs. Anyone with a decent grasp of any of several computer languages can build a database to listen in on political calls (although WHY anyone would want to listen in on Ted Kennedy's drunken maunderings completely escapes me!)
Why would anyone BOTHER to use the NSA to spy for political reasons when anyone can get a database dedicated to that built for themselves? I'm sorry, but keyword databases of the type the NSA is using are NOT some secret, majical technology that only a government agency like the NSA could get ahold of. It is just a concept, a method of building a database. Politicians can buy their own without bothering the NSA about it.
This entire suspicion that the NSA is being used to spy on political enemies is totally baseless paranoia.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/DODAntiWarProtestDatabaseTracker.pdf
ReplyDeleteHere is a document from declassified files showing that the pentagon was spying on the quakers and a host of other liberal activist groups such as greenpeace. A group of anti-war grandmas was visited by the FBI as well. I suppose those grandma's are secret al-quaida operatives.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/DODAntiWarProtestDatabaseTracker.pdf
ReplyDeletehttp://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/
ReplyDeleteDODAntiWarProtestDatabase
Tracker.pdf
The Dog said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn Greenwald:
How you could write so many paragraphs on "they admit they didn't comply with FISA is beyond me" more or less is unwarranted. Why is it a surprise or difficult to understand that if FISA doesn't apply to particular situations then FISA isn't complied with? How simple is that? Gee, If FISA doesn't apply then compliance with its requirements isn’t needed. The contention that FISA doesn't apply, and therefore wasn't complied with is in no way an admission of wrongdoing.
I think you should check you facts before putting up such a a ridiculus argument. The FISA courts were set up to precisely stop wiretapping of American citizens on American soil without any oversight. Any wiretapping of a call originitaing or terminating on amricn soil is illegal if it is done without FISA court's approval. By your twisted logic, the president can overturn 'Brown V Board of Education' or 'Roe V Wade', without going to the courts if hee deems them to be illegal, or thinks they they do not apply. Goog for you. I suggest you register for LOGIC 101.
Before sucking up to any argument based on your ideological preference you should also take into consideration the fact that you might be the one facing the barrel in future. You guys have been known to go after presidents who were gettin BJ's in the preivacy of there bedrooms. I know where you come from.