Friday, July 21, 2006

Defeating the Specter bill

(updated below)

Yesterday's significant judicial defeat of the Bush administration in the EFF/AT&T NSA case underscores just how pernicious the Specter FISA bill is, and how urgent it is that it not be enacted. It has been clear for some time that both the federal district judge in the EFF case, as well as the judge in the ACLU case pending in the Eastern District of Michigan, are unwilling to simply roll over and offer the administration the type of blind deference which the Congress and even other courts have been willing to extend in the area of national security. As a result, these cases threaten to subject the administration to that which it fears most: judicial review of its behavior.

The Specter bill -- in addition to its other multiple flaws -- would solve this problem almost entirely for the administration. Section 702(b) of the bill (entitled "Mandatory Transfer for Review") protects the administration in numerous ways from meaningful judicial review:

First, it requires (if the Attorney General requests it, which he will) that all pending cases challenging the legality of the NSA program (which includes the EFF and ACLU cases) be transferred to the secret FISA court. Thus, the insufficiently deferential federal judges would have these cases taken away from them. Second, it would make judicial review of the administration's behavior virtually impossible, as it specifically prohibits (Sec. 702(b)(2)) the FISA court from "requir(ing) the disclosure of national security information . . . without the approval of the Director of National Intelligence of the Attorney General." That all but prevents any discovery in these lawsuits. Third, it quite oddly authorizes (Sec. 702(b)(6)) the FISA court to "dismiss a challenge to the legality of an electronic surveillance program for any reason" (emphasis added). Arguably, that provision broadens the authority of the court to dismiss any such lawsuit for the most discretionary of reasons, even beyond the already wide parameters of the "state secrets" doctrine.

When the Specter bill was first announced last week, it appeared it would be politically difficult to block its enactment. The only real impediment to a legislative resolution of the NSA scandal has been Specter's inability to induce the White House to agree to any proposal. Once Specter obligingly crafted a bill which gives the White House everything it could possibly want and then some, the White House finally agreed to allow Specter to legalize its program, and it was hard to see how a bill which has the support both of the White House (and therefore all White House Senate allies) and Specter could be derailed.

But this article this morning from the Washington Post's Dan Eggen (one of the best journalists on this story) suggests that the Specter bill may already be experiencing some significant problems. It begins by noting that the Specter bill was one "personally negotiated by President Bush and Vice President Cheney" -- a fact that I had not seen reported previously and which reflects just how important it is for the President to have a legislative solution which protects his from the consequences of his illegal eavesdropping behavior.

Eggen also clearly recognizes that the claim by the Post and other newspapers last week that the Specter bill is a "compromise" is false, and was merely the self-serving characterization peddled by the parties involved (which, thanks to Eggen's gullible colleagues, became the lens through which the Specter bill was described):

The proposal was billed as a rare and noteworthy compromise by the administration when unveiled last week. But the legislation quickly came under attack from Democrats and many national security experts, who said it would actually give the government greater powers to spy on Americans without court oversight.

Eggen reports today that the Specter bill "ran into immediate trouble this week, as Democrats and other critics attacked the proposal while key GOP leaders in the House endorsed a different bill on the same topic." The plan of both Specter and the White House appeared to be to push a quick vote by the full Senate on this bill. Barbara O'Brien was on a conference call with the ACLU this week and reported that Specter "is determined to bring his bogus bill . . . to a vote this week." But according to Eggen, that plan is now derailed:

Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, canceled a markup session for his proposal that had been scheduled for yesterday. He announced instead plans instead (sic) for a full committee hearing Wednesday on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), the 1978 statute at the center of the debate.

One problem, according to Eggen, is that key House Republicans who either are facing tough re-election campaigns or who are looking for fights with the White House -- including Heather Wilson, Pete Hoekstra, and Jim Sensenbrenner -- have introduced mildly less deferential legislation than Specter's bill (virtually everything, by definition, is less deferential), and have made some noises that they would not support Specter's bill. Additionally, even generally accommodating Democrats such as Jane Harman have, at least thus far, expressed relatively steadfast opposition to the Specter bill, although it is unclear whether any Democratic support would be necessary to enact this bill (Senate Democrats, however, could and should filibuster this legislation).

There is still a real chance to derail the Specter bill. When it was announced, the shining "concession" which Specter touted was the White House's verbal, highly conditional "promise" to submit the question of the constitutionality (not the legality, but only the constitutionality under the Fourth Amendment) of warrantless eavesdropping to the FISA court (something which the bill does not actually require). But the White House's agreement to submit this question to the FISA court was conditioned upon there not being any changes at all to the Specter bill in its current form -- something that seems unlikely if House Republicans continue to push their own legislative solution and key Democrats continue to object to the Specter bill. As the Post put it on the day the agreement was announced:

If Congress amends the bill in any way that Bush disapproves, he will not be obligated to submit the wiretap program to the FISA court for review, Specter said.

More significantly, there is far more media attention being paid to executive power abuses than ever before. Not only the editorial page of the New York Times, but also the much more pro-administration Washington Post editorial page, have urged defeat of the Specter bill in unusually emphatic terms. Articles decrying the administration's executive power abuses are now common. Even David Broder yesterday took notice of the Bush administration's radical executive power theories and the total Congressional abdication of any oversight role, but he proclaimed: this "is beginning to change."

In terms of the political climate for these issues, today is a much different -- and better -- world even as compared to three months ago. Discussions of Bush's executive power abuses are no longer confined to blogs, the Boston Globe, and the office of a Senator from Wisconsin. That there is a pressing need for checks to be imposed on the Bush administration's limitless claims to power is now a mainstream and widely recognized view. Media elites finally understand it and political officials can discuss these matters with much less resistance than before.

Many Republicans who are facing tough re-election battles, such as Rep. McDonald, need to demonstrate that they do not simply roll over for the White House. Democrats have an opportunity to impose a serious defeat on the White House by taking a real stand against this truly destructive Specter bill. It is not difficult to make clear that opposition to the Specter bill is not an anti-eavesdropping position, but simply a desire to preserve the safeguards and checks and balances which our country has had for the last 25 years and with which all Presidents before the current one -- Republican and Democrat alike -- easily complied without complaint while defending the nation.

The Specter bill is a true menace to checks and balances on the executive branch, to the restoration of the rule of law, to the critical constitutional principles re-affirmed by the Supreme Court in Hamdan, and to the fundamental principle that political officials who break the law must be held accountable. It would also return the country to the pre-FISA era when the executive branch could eavesdrop on Americans with no meaningful oversight or limits, a situation which led to widespread abuse. It is critical that this bill be blocked and, surprisingly, there seems to be real opportunities to do just that. The question now is whether Congressional Democrats, and/or key Republicans, will seize that opportunity.

UPDATE: I have an article regarding many of these issues in the current issue of In These Times -- entitled "Rechecking the Balance of Powers" -- and it is now available online. The article discusses the Bush administration's manipulation of the "state secrets" doctrine, its general efforts to block all methods for judicial review of its actions, and the effect which Hamdan will have on these tactics as well as on the administration's radical theories of executive power generally.

153 comments:

  1. You know, In re: Sealed Case doesn't exactly foreclose a Fourth Amendment argument. I know, different day, different judges, but are judges really going to say the preznit can do whatever he want to whoever he wants just because he says so (even with a castrated Senate cowering in the corner)?

    Cheers,

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  2. Uncanny, Glenn. In the two minutes it took me to ask a question at the end of the comments on the last post, you've answered it here.

    I guess you just can't blink around here

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  3. Good post, Glenn.

    I hope you're right about the Specter bill encountering difficulty so far. It's amazing to me that such a radical bill is even being considered. Had the Bush administration put forth such a bill even in the days after 9/11, it would have been a non-starter in Congress. But now, 5 years out, we're suddenly considering dumping FISA altogether? It really puts the whole Patriot Act debate in perspective. Compared to Specter's bill, the Patriot act looks like something drafted by the ACLU. It's amazing what a little blatant law-breaking can do to lower everyone's expectations.

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  4. Another stray thought:

    The White House has supposedly assured Specter that it will voluntary submit "the program" for optional FISC review if this legislation passes. But what "program" do they mean? Based on the reporting, there seem to be multiple programs or at least several components of the same program (the initial data-mining part and the later direct interception, for instance). Which program, or portion of the program, have they agreed to submit for judicial review? And if they do submit something for review, isn't it likely they'll just submit the least controversial program or part thereof?

    Specter's bill could not possibly be a bigger joke.

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  5. I'm not a lawyer, so I may have misunderstood. When the SF judge "immediately certified it for appeal to the 9th Ciruit" did he mean "well, I might have been in error, so I want others to look at this"? Shouldn't the party who was ruled against have to convince the 9th Circuit to hear their appeal? Thanks.

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  6. If Congress amends the bill in any way that Bush disapproves, he will not be obligated to submit the wiretap program to the FISA court for review, Specter said.

    Isn't the point of all this the fact that Bush already is obligated to submit his program(s) to the FISA court? And what he disapproves of is the law, as enacted, that requires that oversight?

    Specter framing it as though Bush has the legal option is willfully disingenous, deliberately sidelining blatant violation of law.

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  7. Does anybody have any insight into (or links to commentary on) what Spectre's thinking (if you can call it that) might be? I'm absolutely baffled by the guy.

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  8. I'm not a lawyer, so I may have misunderstood. When the SF judge "immediately certified it for appeal to the 9th Ciruit" did he mean "well, I might have been in error, so I want others to look at this"? Shouldn't the party who was ruled against have to convince the 9th Circuit to hear their appeal?

    In the federal courts, appeals of a specific court decision have to wait until the entire case is concluded. Parties can't appeal a decision in the middle of a case, unless, as here, the court "certifies" a particular ruling for immediate appeal (something which occurs in cases where, informally speaking, the ruling is of particular importance or of great controversy). The 9th Circuit could, but almost certainly won't, refuse to hear the appeal anyway.

    Isn't the point of all this the fact that Bush already is obligated to submit his program(s) to the FISA court? And what he disapproves of is the law, as enacted, that requires that oversight?

    It's a somewhat different issue. Bush of course is required under the current FISA law to submit any requests to eavesdrop to the court (which is the law he has been violating).

    But the intent of the Specter bill (presumably) is to have the FISA court rule whether, as a general matter, the Fourth Amendment is violated when the administration eavesdrops on Americans without warrants in order to investigate international terrorist groups.

    The Supreme Court already ruled unconstitutional that the Nixon administration's warrantless eavesdropping as part of investigations into domestic terrorism groups violated the 4th amenmdment, but expressly left open the question of whether it also would be unconstistutional in the context of investigating international terrorism.

    That's the question which Specter wants the FISA court to decide.

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  9. Anonymous11:37 AM

    GG: In terms of the political climate for these issues, today is a much different -- and better -- world even as compared to three months ago.

    Which is not entirely due to the work and dedication of just one man, but close. Thank you, Glenn, for your work!

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  10. Anonymous11:51 AM

    Glenn writes: The 9th Circuit could, but almost certainly won't, refuse to hear the appeal anyway.

    Just as a point of interest about the 9th Circuit -- widely considered to be the most"liberal" of the federal appellate circuits -- Reason recently did an interview with one of its judges, Alex Kozinski. Heretofore, I have been strongly supportive of Judge Kozinski as a libertarian whose jurisprudence tracks my own, and hoping against all odds that a president of either party might appoint him to the SCOTUS; however, Reason suggests his libertarianism has gone missing in its piece Searching for Alex Kozinski.

    About the NSA program Kozinski glibly declaims:


    Reason: That’s what happens in a normal criminal investigation. What do you think of President Bush using the war on terrorism as a pretext to issue an executive order for wiretap surveillance without going to the FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] court to obtain a warrant?


    Kozinski: That’s a legal issue, and when I get the case I’ll tell you.


    Reason: Does your gut instinct say they went too far or that this was a legitimate use of the president’s powers for national security?


    Kozinski: I can afford to have instincts about medicine because I don’t practice medicine, but I can’t afford to have instincts about law. When it comes to law, I have to follow the law. I don’t know enough about the case. But I’m not prepared to say offhand that it’s illegal. Presumably the president is doing it for a legitimate purpose. I don’t think he’s doing it because he’s interested in your sex life.


    Reason: He might not be, but some future president might. Where do you draw the line?


    Kozinski: It depends on the body count, doesn’t it? Fifty million dead? A hundred million dead? Or are you talking about destroying America as we know it? Destroying our industrial base or covering our fields with radioactive waste so we can’t grow any food for the next three millennia? I’d be willing to give up some privacy to prevent those things.


    This displeases me enormously. Of course, perhaps he won't be on the review panel.

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  11. Anonymous11:54 AM

    In terms of the political climate for these issues, today is a much different -- and better -- world even as compared to three months ago. Discussions of Bush's executive power abuses are no longer confined to blogs, the Boston Globe, and the office of a Senator from Wisconsin. That there is a pressing need for checks to be imposed on the Bush administration's limitless claims to power is now a mainstream and widely recognized view. Media elites finally understand it and political officials can discuss these matters with much less resistance than before.

    I've heard that there was recently a book published on the subject that might have contributed to the shift on this issue...

    :)

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  12. Anonymous12:03 PM

    Glenn, technical question:

    Why isn't it a taking under the 5th Amendment for the government to invoke the state secrets privilege? To me it looks like the state is taking something of value (an individual legal claim) for the alleged common good (national security). It seems to me like this should qualify as a taking, and compensation should be the fair value of the claim.

    This Specter Bill seems to do the same thing - taking a claim for the common good.

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  13. Anonymous12:07 PM

    The proposals include the administration have the FISA court "review" the NSA wiretapping program. Is there something about the way the FISA court is set up that is different from the usual courts, where in a very early constitutional case, the Supreme Court decided their role was to rule on disputes, not to review the constititutionality in the abstract?

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  14. Minorities have little power in the House, especially this one. Senate minorities at least have the filibuster, and similar defensive tools. Will Senate Democrats make a stand?

    Although I think the opposition from House Republicans can provide more of an obstacle than you seem to think (at least to delay this long enough to enable it to unravel), I certainly agree that the best chance, by far, to stop the Specter bill is a real stand from Senate Democrats - which would really have to mean a filibuster.

    Placing one's hopes on the collective and resolute stance of Senate Democrats hasn't exactly been a gratifying option for the last five years, but it is possible that since - as you suggest - all they are doing is defending the 25-year-old status quo, perhaps they can find a way to stand up to the administration on a national security issue without scaring themselves and their Beltway consultants.

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  15. Anonymous12:23 PM

    Specter is a Sheep in Wolf's clothing.

    By that I mean he makes a great deal of noise & blusters about unconstitutional administrative acts. Which he quickly follows up with rolling over and giving bushco everything they want, every single time.

    And he's supposed to be a liberal republican?kxxxqb

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  16. Anonymous12:27 PM

    Kozinski: I’d be willing to give up some privacy to prevent those things.

    Hypatia: This displeases me enormously. Of course, perhaps he won't be on the review panel.


    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

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  17. Anonymous12:28 PM

    ):)

    Glenn:

    Assuming the Specter bill gets passed prior to the Novemebr election, and then the Dems regain control of Congress, what legislative options would they have to undo the damage (understanding they would have to override a Presidential veto, but I'm hoping the Repub minority will see the political landscape a little differently by then)?

    By the way, read your post on personal attacks the other day. Don't have much to add to your thoughts other than my dismay at why the opposition thinks any of these things about you diminshes the honesty and quality of your analysis and find it unfortuante that for some they do. But I did want to tell you, I made my first campaign contributions ever yesterday, picking a few campaigns I thought were important and against opponents that need to be defeated. Reading your blog (and a few others) played no samll role in my decision to act and who I made my contributions to. Keep up the great work - you make a difference in many more ways than you can ever know and I'm proof of that.

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  18. Glenn,

    The New Republic has a good article criticizing the bill and Specter in general.

    "In fact, rather than providing an important check on the administration's legal abuses, Specter may be doing more than anyone to facilitate them... Arlen Specter's strategy is... playing hero--of pretending to rescue our democracy from an executive branch gone out of control--all the while ensuring that the administration doesn't have to give an inch." The article approvingly cites Lederman's conclusion that the bill is Bush's dream and lists several of the same problems with it.

    Also, check out this line "Specter may claim he's not willing to give the administration a blank check. But he certainly seems to have cribbed pretty closely from executive orders and Pentagon memos in deciding how to fill the check in."

    That could become an important new meme for Specter.

    The article also discusses the "Unprivileged Combatant Act" (which, among other things "would explicitly strip federal courts of habeas jurisdiction").

    Given your prediction that they'd cave, you may want to make a note of this in a brief update or something. TNR has been inconsistent on this issue, but they've written some very good stuff on it as well.

    I didn't get to the right-wing attacks thread until late in the game yesterday, but I wanted to say now that I hope you don't let them get to you. You're taking the right approach and your readers are reciprocating with incredible loyalty. You should be really proud of what you've started.

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  19. It really mystifies me how the White House is repeatedly able to compel the congress do its bidding, on issue after issue. Perhaps in the course of their spying they've assembled some sort of J. Edgar Hooveresque blackmail file on all of them.

    Makes you wonder what they have on Joe Lieberman for him to be such a puppet.

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  20. Anonymous12:58 PM

    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

    I don't believe that anyone who can kill 100,000,000 will be prevented from doing so by this or similar wiretapping programs.

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  21. Anonymous1:02 PM

    what i don't understand is how any ruling by the fisa court on the constitutionality of a program could mean anything. i could rule, for example, that the tsa program is constitutional, but that wouldn't make it so!

    glenn, can you help me understand this?

    i mean, as a court set up to issue warrants, i don't see how the fisa court is empowered to settle disputes about the constitution.

    isn't it possible that the fisa court (with its eleven justices appointed by john roberts, if i have my facts straight) could rule the tsa program is constitutional when in fact it is not and then wouldn't that ruling have no effect on whether the program is legal or illegal?

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  22. Anonymous1:10 PM

    Then again, where is the cutoff for wholesale destruction of our very principles of liberty?

    How do you equate Kosinski's phrase "some privacy" with your hysterical "wholesale destruction of our very principles of liberty"?

    I suggest that this is far closer to nonsense than anything said by Judge Kosinski.

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  23. The 0.000001 percent solution

    Brave little "anonymous" said:

    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

    False dichotomy. This guy needs to read up on statistics ... hell, even learning some simple facts would be a start.

    Cheers,

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  24. Anonymous1:38 PM

    Arne L. gets it right: False dichotomy. This guy needs to read up on statistics ... hell, even learning some simple facts would be a start.

    FISA warrant requirements do not equal fifty million dead or our fields covered with radioactive waste so we can’t grow any food for the next three millennia.

    Alex Kozinski is (way) too smart not to know that FISA applies in time of peace and war, and is by law the “exclusive means” for surveillance of suspected terrorist activity. He knows, or should know, that it has been amended post -9/11. He further knows Congress almost certainly would give the Executive any additional modifications of FISA that it would say it needed, provided they retain the oversight the Church Committee and Congress in 1978 was determined to mandate in order to prevent serious abuses by the Executive, committed by presidents of both parties.

    Spewing scary scenarios about millions dying in radioactive fields is crude scare-mongering, and the sort of thing that would justify declaring martial law. How odd for a "libertarian" appellate judge to be promoting such unrealistic fantasies.

    Islamic fanatics are not poised to kill 50 million of us, or anything even remotely like such devastation. But the Bush administration is eviscerating the rule of law and behaving as if Bush were a monarch. To the extent Kozinski goes off into feverish and unrealistic hypotheticals rather than confronting the attack on our system of checks and balances and rule of law – which the Bush Administration has placed in crisis -- he mouths sentiments that literally let the terrorists win, and the country down.

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  25. but are judges really going to say the preznit can do whatever he want to whoever he wants just because he says so?

    Someday, thanks to the Federalist Society, it won't matter where you litigate, the answer will be 'yes'.

    Unless the President is a Republican. In which case, the answer will be 'no'.

    Results-oriented jurisprudence.

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  26. what i don't understand is how any ruling by the fisa court on the constitutionality of a program could mean anything. i could rule, for example, that the tsa program is constitutional, but that wouldn't make it so!

    Article I, Section 8 vests Congress with the power "To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court".

    Article III, Section 1 provides: "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."

    The FISA courts exist because Congress created them. I don't think there is any real doubt that Congress can empower that court to adjudicate the constitutionality of warrantless eavesdropping (assuming, that is, that the "Case or Controversy" jursidictional requirement of Article III is met - something which, as several people here will be the first to point out, is all not that clear).

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  27. A thought on Judge Kozinski and his comments about doomsday scenarios vs. giving up "a little privacy." I've seen him during oral arguments, he's quite the irascible and sarcastic jurist.

    Not to be the Pollyanna, I get the sense that he wasn't so much discussing the law as being difficult for the interviewer. I got the sense from his first response to the line of questions that he didn't appreciate being asked about the issue outside the context of a court proceeding. Most judges (Scalia excluded) really don't appreciate being put to the wall about their opinions of a current legal controversy.

    I think, and I hope, he was only being difficult.

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  28. Anonymous1:50 PM

    ):)

    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

    For the millionth time, nobody is trying to dent the government the right to wiretap or listen into terrorist calls. We just want them to get a warrant first. And FISA is the extremely "streamlined" method for getting one. And we're willing to make (and have made) reasonable changes to further enable the government to protect us.

    So, this is not about giving terrorists an easier path to killing us. It's about the Executive Branch having a check on not using its surveillance powers illegally against us. There is absolutley no evidence that observing the FISA regulations will hinder the government's efforts to listen in on calls that it has a reasonable belief will aid in preventing terrorism against us.

    There, I said it 3 different ways. When are these idiots going to stop pretending this is about preventing government wiretapping???!!!


    We must counter this misconception every time it appears.

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  29. Anonymous1:51 PM

    anonymous at 12:27
    Kozinski: I’d be willing to give up some privacy to prevent those things.

    Hypatia: This displeases me enormously. Of course, perhaps he won't be on the review panel.

    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

    This comment bothers me to no end. Not to cast aspersions on the author, because I don't disagree with the premise - if I could save 100,000,000 people by exposing the sordid and sundry details of any part of my life, I certainly would. But I disagree fundamentally with the premise that somehow it would do so.

    It is a completely false dichotomy to suggest that giving up our civil liberties will somehow make the world a safer place. I think this is incredibly wrong and dunderheaded. The recent examples of authoritarian governments should be enough to disabuse those so inclined of this notion. What the hell was the Cold War about if not the protection of civil liberties and personal freedoms? We did not struggle against the British, the French, the Germans, the Nazis, and the Soviets only to become some watered down version of them.

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  30. It still seems to me that the key to all of this, from the price of oil to the presumptive threat to domestic civil liberties, is Israel.

    For a long time, the military power of the United States and Israel has preserved the status quo in the Middle East. We've had our relatively inexpensive oil, and the ruling juntas and families of the Arab states have had domestic tranquility -- at least for themselves.

    A horror worthy of Conrad has, however, lurked just below the surface the whole time, and the deep divisions, although suppressed, have not gone away any more than they did in the Soviet Union, or in Yugoslavia under Tito.

    Now, if the iconoclasts quoted so frequently in Billmon are even half right, the U.S/Israel axis is losing its dominance, and the first real threat to the existence of Israel since 1948 may be in the offing.

    If this is so, and my instincts say that it may be, we liberals could permanently lose any influence over not only the foreign policy agenda, but domestic issues as well. I certainly have no crystal ball, but add defeat in our Middle Eastern adventurism to variables like the uncertain stability of the global economic tradeoff between China and the U.S., and real imponderables like global warming, and you have to wonder if anything from the Constitution to the nation state itself is guaranteed to survive the next fifty years.

    This speculation is off topic, I freely admit, but not as far off topic as I wish it were.

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  31. Anonymous1:54 PM

    Article III, Section 1 provides: "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."

    Glenn, does the use of inferior here mean that any court Congress establishes can be deemed under the Supreme Court and thus its decisions deemed to be appealable to the Supreme court?

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  32. Anonymous1:55 PM

    If the climate today is better than three months ago with regard to the issue of executive abuse of power, it seems to me Glenn gets a lot of the credit for the change in the weather. Credit also is due John Dean. I'm reading his book now and it's spectacular.

    As for this comment:
    "personally negotiated by President Bush and Vice President Cheney"....

    Cheney yes, but I personally would be skeptical as to whether President Bush is negotiating much of anything personally these days.

    I invite the more worldly commenters to check out the video of Bush's speech to the African American community on Huffington Post. I am referring to the part where Julian Bond walks behind him and then walks back behind him in the other direction as Bush is speaking.

    Look closely.

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  33. Anonymous1:57 PM

    DCLaw1 writes: Not to be the Pollyanna, I get the sense that he wasn't so much discussing the law as being difficult for the interviewer.

    Oh, to be sure -- that desire to be difficult comes through loudly. And while I've never observed Judge Kozinski during an oral argument as you have, your assessment rings true to what I've "heard" about him -- irascible, indeed.

    Nevertheless, his extended and glib commentary about Bush not being interested in people's sex lives, radioactive fields, 50 million dead & etc. would not suggest an individual -- much less a judge -- who sees that the rule of law is under attack. He might benefit from a chat with (very conservative) Michael Luttig on the subject of the Administration's claims where terrorism is at issue, versus reality.

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  34. Anonymous1:58 PM

    In the forever it took between me starting my post and actually publishing it, about 10 people responded more eloquently than I.

    Sorry.

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  35. Glenn:I don't think there is any real doubt that Congress can empower that court to adjudicate the constitutionality of warrantless eavesdropping (assuming, that is, that the "Case or Controversy" jursidictional requirement of Article III is met - something which, as several people here will be the first to point out, is all not that clear).

    The problem is that the FISA Courts aren't Article III courts, so they might not have the same standing requirements. I haven't really looked to thoroughly into it, but my educated guess is that the court could hear a non-case-and-controversy matter such as the constitutionality of a wiretapping program.

    Still, in any case, its decision would have to be appealable to a "real" Article III court, such as the Supreme Court.

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  36. Glenn:

    I just wanted to say thanks for all the work you've done on this.

    There are a lot of talking points that get distributed, and the reason they're distributed is that enough people think that they sound good enough to raise doubts. And they have.

    You've helped satisfy those doubts with clear explanations.

    More importantly, with those explanations, you've helped me (and, I'm sure, many others) to clarify their thoughts on a lot of things.

    For example, on the face of it, Specter's bill can be made to sound reasonable... but it's not. And if you can find these problems, so could Specter's team of people. And thus, if Specter didn't find these problems, it can only be because he didn't want to. And, of course, if he did find these things, but pretends he didn't, well, "lying scumsucker" fits, though it's a bit of an insult to the many more honorable lying scumsuckers out there.

    Anyway: thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowledge. You're helping to bring back the true spirit of America.

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  37. Anonymous2:07 PM

    if Specter didn't find these problems, it can only be because he didn't want to.

    Specter is definitely smart enough to understand this litigation, so either he's not paying attention or he is disingenuous. I admit I am baffled, beacuase he just seems so committed when he first raises issues.

    He does have a history of contorting facts to support his desired result though (Kennedy's magic bullet anyone?).

    I'm stumped by him, but his behavior warrants removal from office. Santorum first though.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous2:10 PM

    With regard to William Timberlane's observation that our foreign policy may be related to the civil liberities issue, I think the "we liberals" William references in his post may have one less in number: America Held Hostage

    The Democrats are competing with the GOP to see who can praise the Israeli blitzkrieg in the most obsequiously extravagant terms. Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid made a fire-breathing speech in favor the resolution, Hillary Clinton declared her "unreserved support" for the invasion, and even Russ Feingold, ostensibly the antiwar candidate among the Democratic presidential wannabes, averred:

    "I stand firmly with the people of Israel and their government as they defend themselves against these outrageous attacks. What we have done by becoming mired in Iraq, and by deciding to change the balance of power in that region, is enable Iran and Syria to be much more open in tormenting Israel, the United States, and our allies."


    That is gibberish. The "defense" of Israel hardly requires the bombing of northern Lebanon, including the Christian areas and the civilian infrastructure. The Israelis are even hitting the barracks of the Lebanese army – the very army the Israelis are demanding must police southern Lebanon and prevent Hezbollah attacks. Israel's goal has nothing to do with getting any soldiers back: it's all about the dissolution of a Parliament where Hezbollah's representatives sit, and the division of the country. Forget the "Cedar Revolution" – touted by Bush and the neocons as indisputable evidence of a "democratic wave" supposedly sweeping the region as the direct result of Iraq's "liberation." The Israelis have decided that the government brought to power in the "Beirut spring" must fall, and that is the end of that.


    Russ Feingold was a one trick pony, but ponies, like certain emperors, unfortunately have no clothes.

    RIP, Russ Feingold. I noticed the problem months ago but others were letting their hope trump their powers of observation.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous2:23 PM

    I've been keeping up with the Judiciary committee because my Democratic senator is on it (and on the record as opposed to Specter's bill).

    Specter's bill was supposed to be voted on yesterday in the committee. A few days ago it was exepected to pass on a party line. The vote was postponed. It hasn't been rescheduled yet. Interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  40. With all due respect, EWO, I think Russ Feingold is exactly correct. A United States which commits hara-kiri within sight of its enemies, risks all kinds of mischief from them.

    Syria and Iran are our enemies, make no mistake about that, and seeing us taken down a peg or two is essential to their survival, as they see it, at least.

    This judgment is quite apart from the morality of particular actions, or the wisdom of certain alliances, or of the political perceptions that drive us to them.

    We're playing a dangerous game in the Middle East, and it doesn't help -- the Iraq misadventure aside -- to pretend that a)it isn't war or 2) that for better or worse, we haven't been committed to it for decades.

    Oh, and the bit about firm and unequivocal support for Israel, show me a single national politician who doesn't have to say that before he says anything else.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous2:28 PM

    It does? You wouldn't be willing to give up some privacy to prevent 100,000,000 dead?

    Let's make it simple:

    No, I wouldn't.

    How many dead would have been spared if the US had surrendered to Japan on December 7, 1941?

    There are worse things than being radioactive slag. Living under a dictatorship, with one's civil rights at the mercy of a lunatic despot, is certainly one.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous2:29 PM

    William Timberman @2:25. Well said.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous2:39 PM

    There are worse things than being radioactive slag. Living under a dictatorship, with one's civil rights at the mercy of a lunatic despot, is certainly one.

    This is yet another example of hysterical drivel from an unserious moron. Judge Kosinski's "some privacy" gets twisted into "living under a dictatorship...at the mercy of a lunatic despot."

    What utter nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous2:41 PM

    RIP, Russ Feingold. I noticed the problem months ago but others were letting their hope trump their powers of observation.

    Thank-you EWO for once again coming here to point out just how much smarter you are than everyone else, and just how hopeless every thing is. It’s always appreciated.

    In fact, we are all so stupid here that none of us can ever bookmark antiwar.com for ourselves, and that is why you are obligated to copy and paste every article of Justin Raimondo and Paul Craig Roberts here in full.

    And thank-you for informing us that anyone who does not share those two authors view of Israel cannot be considered an ally in fighting to preserve civil liberties. Your logic is unassailable, as always.

    And, since there is no one in Congress who shares their views on Israel, there is simply no one to protect civil liberties, and thus no one to defeat Specter’s bill, and no point in talking about this issue.

    Well, thank-you. Now if you’d be so kind as the let those of us with inferior intellects (like Glenn) waste their time on these issues, we’d appreciate it.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous2:46 PM

    Libertarian James Bovard has a salient and relevant (to Glenn's post) piece in this month’s American Conservative. From his article Power of the Pen -The president uses signing statements to decree which laws apply to him.:

    We have a nullification crisis at the heart of the American Republic. Torture is apparently legal, despite a federal prohibition. Domestic wiretapping is apparently legal, despite clear legal and constitutional prohibitions. Seizing suspects and holding them indefinitely is apparently legal, despite the Constitution’s requirement of habeas corpus.

    Apparently, the government is not obliged to obey any law that Bush does not personally approve of. And how can we know which laws Bush approves of? It’s a secret. Bush’s personal thoughts thus become the ultimate law of the land—and no one can know if the government is violating the “law” because Bush has not publicly declared what the law is.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hypatia:

    Could it be that law, not economics, is the dismal science? If so, it makes Glenn an even more valuable resource than we'd previously thought, nu?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous3:03 PM

    mds said...

    (I know, everyone, don't feed the trolls. But I'm feeling grumpy this morning, despite this decision. Perhaps it's the weather.)


    Nicely done!


    Reason recently did an interview with one of its judges, Alex Kozinski. Heretofore, I have been strongly supportive of Judge Kozinski as a libertarian whose jurisprudence tracks my own, and hoping against all odds that a president of either party might appoint him to the SCOTUS; however, Reason suggests his libertarianism has gone missing in its piece Searching for Alex Kozinski.

    Except for the last bit which as you say Arne has got right, and I'll hope he's just echoing a bizarre and unrealistic hypothetical, it sounds like he's practicing for the confirmation hearings already.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous3:10 PM

    This is yet another example of hysterical drivel from an unserious moron. Judge Kosinski's "some privacy" gets twisted into "living under a dictatorship...at the mercy of a lunatic despot."

    You are apparently willing to give up “some privacy.” Specifically what? To whom? For how long? Why?

    Where does one draw the line?

    The implication in the original quote is that if we don’t give up some (or all) of our civil liberties to a government that is willing to ignore the law and the Constitution, some unnamed nuclear force will destroy us all. This is ‘hysterical drivel.’

    In any event, I stand by my statement.

    ReplyDelete
  49. jao,

    I spoke too soon and relied too much on gut impression. Many have questioned whether the FISA courts are actually Article III courts, but it seems the FISA Court of Review (perhaps unsurprisingly) and some others do consider it so. It's not really worth the further research to me right now, but in any case, yes, it's true that there are a number of ways to present to a court the constitutionality of Specter's legislation.


    Hypatia,

    I agree, Judge Kozinski's remarks were pretty gratuitous. His use of false dichotomy and sarcasm reminds me (unpleasantly) of Scalia. It still seems to me that no sensible judge can find his or her way around the pretty immense obstacles to the NSA program's legality, no matter their personal feelings on the topic. Who knows.

    What it might portend, however, is that Kozinski may be more inclined to dismiss on state secrets grounds, and that's just as bad.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous3:18 PM

    This is yet another example of hysterical drivel from an unserious moron. Judge Kosinski's "some privacy" gets twisted into "living under a dictatorship...at the mercy of a lunatic despot."

    Bush followers want to think they're the hard-nosed realists, facing a dark world down for future generations.

    They're delusional. Islamic terrorism, while a threat, is not an existential threat.

    That's a fact, and if you disagree, you are kidding yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  51. DCLaw1:

    Just a note of thanks for your astute and articulate comments here, and your patience with us IANALs -- it's much appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous3:25 PM

    Anonymous said...

    "There are worse things than being radioactive slag. Living under a dictatorship, with one's civil rights at the mercy of a lunatic despot, is certainly one."

    This is yet another example of hysterical drivel from an unserious moron. Judge Kosinski's "some privacy" gets twisted into "living under a dictatorship...at the mercy of a lunatic despot."

    What utter nonsense.


    Ames and Anonymous:

    Let's make a distinction here that Kosinski appears not to have made. "Some privacy" may be conceded in any number of ways, but they fall under only about 4 categories that I can see:

    (1) Temporary and voluntary

    (2) Permanent and voluntary

    (3) Permanent and involuntary

    (4) Temporary and involuntary

    One could create other categories based on "individual" vs "mass" or "us" vs "them," but I don't think that's relevant here.

    I assume that Ames would indeed be willing to give up some privacy under category 1 to save 100,000 lives or prevent slagging etc. etc. That is, he may not mind answering certain personal questions or yield certain personal information under certain conditions. Yet I doubt he would be happy about the other possibilities. #4 would primarily be for convicted criminals.

    Thus may "some privacy," in the hands of people who are not to be trusted, indeed be "twisted" into "living under a dictatorship...at the mercy of a lunatic despot."

    Is that still nonsense?

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous3:25 PM

    Apparently, the government is not obliged to obey any law that Bush does not personally approve of.

    Here’s another one.

    Although Congress required it, Bush refuses to estimate future costs of the Iraq War, which violates the federal law. Their excuse? “Too many variables.”

    They didn’t say that when they were advocating the war now did they?

    Basically, someone in the administration does not want Bush to face reality. They don’t want him to have to “deal with that”.

    “The analysts know that it's a civil war, but there's a feeling at the top that [using that term] will complicate matters.” Negroponte, said another source regarding the potential impact of a pessimistic assessment, “doesn't want the president to have to deal with that.”

    -- --- -- ----

    Bush’s personal thoughts thus become the ultimate law of the land

    So now it appears we’ve entered an entirely new category. Faith-based law.

    I’ve read Joseph Heller and George Orwell, but nothing prepared me for this.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous3:26 PM

    You are apparently willing to give up “some privacy.” Specifically what? To whom? For how long? Why?

    I've given up my privacy rights when traveling by air...I get searched without a warrant. I support the president's NSA warrantless surveillance program because we need to deter our mortal enemies from using our constitution to destroy us. I can name other examples, but I am sure you get the idea.

    How long should these programs continue? They should continue as long as we're threatened by Islamic fascists and their supporters here and abroad. This will take decades, I suspect.

    The implication in the original quote is that if we don’t give up some (or all) of our civil liberties to a government that is willing to ignore the law and the Constitution, some unnamed nuclear force will destroy us all.

    There is no such implication. Judge Kosinski's remarks reflect basic common sense: when we're under attack from those who use our legal system as a shield to plot against us, we best take action or risk annihilation.

    My guess, however, is you simply don't believe we're under a significant threat, and thus we don't need to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Luckily, those who make public policy in this country are not operating under such dangerous delusions, and are therefore willing to sacrifice "some [of our] privacy" to reduce the risk of our destruction.

    ReplyDelete
  55. William Timberman,

    Thank you, I appreciate your comments as well.

    Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an "IANAL?"

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous3:32 PM

    They're delusional. Islamic terrorism, while a threat, is not an existential threat.

    You couldn't get elected to dog catcher with that as your political program, let alone a seat in Congress or president of the United States. Our elected officials are making public policy based on the fact that the Islamic fascist death cult is indeed an "existential" threat to our way of life.

    On August 9th, when Oliver Stone's movie is released, perhaps you'll get a reminder of what the nature of that threat really is.

    ReplyDelete
  57. prunes: Islamic terrorism, while a threat, is not an existential threat.

    If we could dump the Islamic terrorism bumper sticker, and replace it with something that conveys the meaning of acts of war (asymmetric) against Israel and its principal ally, I'm not altogether sure that your assumption will hold forever.

    We need to find a way to make peace with our enemies if we can; otherwise we run risks far greater than your formulation (or, to be fair, anyone else's) admits.

    ReplyDelete
  58. DCLaw1:

    I Am Not A Lawyer

    ReplyDelete
  59. I support the president's NSA warrantless surveillance program because we need to deter our mortal enemies from using our constitution to destroy us.

    Yes indeed, the threat of weapons-grade constitutions has long been overlooked by liberals. In fact, for as long as our Constitution continues to exist, protected by little more than bureaucrats and display glass, it poses the intolerable risk of landing in the hands of Terrorists who will not hesitate to put it in a shipping container and detonate it in one of our harbors or cities.

    Yes, the Constitution has simply become far too dangerous to allow it to continue to exist.

    I chance to wonder: is this "need to deter our mortal enemies from using our constitution to destroy us," more important than any need to deter our mortal enemies from using our fears to destroy our Constitution?

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous3:39 PM

    Now I see where anonymous 3:32 is coming from:

    "Islamic fascist death cult"

    I guess it's just a battle of "dangerous delusions," and may the better delusion win.

    But do you see, Anonymous, that when you give away your rights you also give away mine? And do you see, then, that I will kill you first, if I get the chance, before I let you do that? Because I am an American.

    I'm not asking whether you agree. I'm asking if you see.

    ReplyDelete
  61. My guess, however, is you simply don't believe we're under a significant threat, and thus we don't need to protect ourselves by any means necessary.

    You may find that your casual use of such phrases and sentiments is abundantly shared by some fairly unsavory historical figures.

    ...my god I've got to get back to work...

    ReplyDelete
  62. This question is addressed mostly to the lawyer types out there, though I welcome other people's input as well. I am as much in favor of defeating Specter's travesty as anyone else. But if it does pass and Congress removes all restraint's on the President's "inherent authority" to wiretap for foreign intelligence, does anyone know how far that power (legally) goes?

    As I understand it, pre-FISA law was as follows:
    (1) The courts held that the Fourth Amendement did not require a warrant for foreign intelligence wiretaps, although they did require such sureveillance to be "reasonable."
    (2) A warrant was required when the purpose of the wiretap shifted from gathering foreign intelligence to prosecution.
    (3) The Supreme Court rejected such any intelligence gathering vs. prosecution dicotomy for domestic security and terrorism and required all such wiretaps to have a warrant.
    (4) All these decisions were made in a Cold War context of rivalries among nation states.

    I have heard a great deal of talk about points 1-3, but really nothing about #4. So how do Cold War era rules apply to fighting Al Qaeda? Does the President's "inherent authority" to warrantless wiretaps of hostile nation states apply to terrorists as well?

    If so, does the whole dicotomy between intelligence versus prosecution make any sense? During the Cold War, the Soviet Union had an embassy and diplomats in the United States. We spied on the Soviet Embassy to gather information, but with no thought of prosecution. We watched Soviet diplomats to figure out which ones were spies, even though diplomatic immunity meant they could not be prosecuted, but only deported. So the dicotomy makes some sense. But presumably we would regard any Al Qaeda member in the U.S. as inherently criminal and want to prosecute. So what is the distinction between intelligence and prosecution.

    I suppose one could argue that intelligence is finding terrorist and prosecution is what we do once we find them. But remember that surveillance, even for intelligence gathering, still has to be "reasonable." Are Bush's huge date mining programs and shakedowns of the haystack for needles "reasonable?" Does anyone know the answers here? Do they even exist?

    All input welcome.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous3:54 PM

    I chance to wonder: is this "need to deter our mortal enemies from using our constitution to destroy us," more important than any need to deter our mortal enemies from using our fears to destroy our Constitution?

    This is more silly hyperbole. The Constitution is not in danger of destruction. Both it and the nation are quite capable of weathering this storm, as long as our enemies are not successful in enlisting their legion of useful idiots to prevent us from protecting ourselves.

    Judge Kosinski's "some privacy" formulation does not portend a police state. For you to imply that it does is not supportable in fact or in law.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous3:56 PM

    Speaking of men (straw and otherwise), what else would you be willing to give up ‘to prevent 100,000,000 dead?’

    -\Your house?
    - Your bank account?
    - Your right to vote?
    - Your right to join a political party other than the party in power?
    - Your job?
    - Your choice of profession?
    - Your ability to live with your family?


    And what other bits of privacy are you willing to sacrifice for those theoretical 100 million?

    - Are you willing to have an RFID chip implanted in your body to preclude ID theft?
    - Are you willing to have a DNA sample kept on file in a government database?
    - Are you willing to undergo periodic screening by polygraph?
    - Are you willing to be considered guilty until proven innocent?

    All of these could arguably facilitate the prosecution of the GWOT.

    As I asked in my previous post: where do you draw the line?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous3:59 PM

    BTW, thank you, baldie eagle, for the interesting analysis of the various ways one can give up freedoms.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anon,

    By "more silly hyperbole," you no doubt mean "in addition to my own original hyperbole?"

    I suppose needing "to deter our mortal enemies from using our constitution to destroy us" was some sort of understatement?

    I agree that our republic can survive this current storm, as you put it, but hardly thanks to those who seem eager to abandon its delicate democratic balance. Somehow, some way, we survived a protracted Cold War and many smaller hot wars without making our rights or Separation of Powers conditional or obsolete. Somehow, some way, I get the feeling we can similarly survive the current threat. But not if we let our very constitutional identity succumb to blind fear.

    Our country was founded upon principles, and it finds its very identity in those principles. Abiding by an attack on any one such principle, no matter how minor you think the attack, is to abide by an assault on the republic itself.

    There is absolutely nothing in this world that will ever make me repudiate the American ideal, no matter how much you demand I be afraid.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous4:16 PM

    Glad to help.

    BTW, ames, when did YOU enlist in the Legion (of useful idiots)?

    I signed up years ago when the Taliban started bashing statues. Plus he's got kewl duds and a hot pop star niece.

    But as long as they keep those checks coming, I'll keep voting for "freedom." You know, the kind that means "slavery."

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous4:21 PM

    Oh, and the bit about firm and unequivocal support for Israel, show me a single national politician who doesn't have to say that before he says anything else.

    That's the point. You may be content to vote for politicians who have to say something before they say anything else to stay in the game.

    I'm not.

    And last I looked, Lebanon was one of the most "westerned" countries in the Middle East and a far cry from Chop Chop Square, the land of Bush's (and I presume yours now) great friends.

    So you take it upon your conscience to advocate killing civilians there to fight off the bogeyman (btw, is that the same bogeyman who was tossing Christians to the lions?---amazing how this existential threat didn't destroy us centuries ago) but I'd prefer not to. I'd rather go to war with Saudi Arabia, home of Islamofascistterrorism to end their brutal practices against their own citizens and leave the Lebanese people alone.

    Oh wait! Sorry. $$$$$. Oil. The Caryle Group. Human Sex Traffiking of children. They support Isreal now. What was I even thinking?

    Chop chop.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous4:24 PM

    You may find that your casual use of such phrases and sentiments is abundantly shared by some fairly unsavory historical figures.

    Malcolm X used that phrase in a very famous speech delivered shortly before his untimely death.

    I've never considered Malcolm to be "fairly unsavory," myself.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous4:27 PM

    All of these could arguably facilitate the prosecution of the GWOT.

    Perhaps in the fever swamp of your over-active imagination, but not in the real world.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous4:28 PM

    PS. BTW, William, you might pause before you go giving away baldie eagle's rights. He said he'd kill anyone who tried to take away his liberty.

    Give your own away. Who appointed you the dispenser of baldie eagle's rights?

    He's an American citizen and is entitled to the protections of the United States Constitution and the amendment between the third and the fifth is included in that document.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous4:31 PM

    Anonymous doesn't read newspapers. They might cause his brain to become infected by tiny particles of ideas.

    Hey, I just noticed that "ideas" is only 2 letters short of "disease." Makes you think, huh?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous4:31 PM

    We need to find a way to make peace with our enemies if we can.

    We're not in the Middle East. Why would any of these nations consider us their enemy unless......

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous4:35 PM

    There is absolutely nothing in this world that will ever make me repudiate the American ideal, no matter how much you demand I be afraid.

    Ceding "some privacy" to the executive branch of our government during a time of war is not "repudiat[ing] the American ideal." You and I already do that when we fly airplanes, and once the Specter bill passes and is signed by the president, there may be other relatively minor intrusions on our privacy that will occur.

    There are numerous examples in US history when we've surrendered "some privacies" in order to protect ourselves from mortal dangers, real (not imagined) threats to the very "American ideal" that you are so jealous to protect.

    I believe we are under such a threat now, and the surrender of "some privacy" is but a small price to pay to ensure the "American ideal" survives into the next generation.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous4:44 PM

    I believe we are under such a threat now, and the surrender of "some privacy" is but a small price to pay to ensure the "American ideal" survives into the next generation.

    Who do you think should have the authority to define which privacies are to be surrendered? Should the decision be made in secret? Can there be any appeal?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous4:55 PM

    but expressly left open the question of whether it also would be unconstistutional in the context of investigating international terrorism.

    The problem with even phrasing the argument to be specific to "international terrorism" is that it allows EVERYTHING to become tied to "international terrorism". Bush doesn't like the Sierra Club interfering with his desires to clearcut the country? Obviously they are part of international "eco-terrorism"! Don't like what some civil liberties group is saying? Obviously they are part of an international terror group bent on harming the US.

    The rule must be virtually foolproof and titanium-clad: no spying on American citizens sans warrant. Period. End of story. There can be no room for "terrorism creep" whereas anything the Prez (or VP) doesn't like immediately (and torturously) is tied to "international terrorism" so that warrantless spying can be conducted...without any oversight, of course.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Ceding "some privacy" to the executive branch of our government during a time of war is not "repudiat[ing] the American ideal." You and I already do that when we fly airplanes, and once the Specter bill passes and is signed by the president, there may be other relatively minor intrusions on our privacy that will occur.

    The issue of FISA and the NSA program is not just about our privacy vs. our security, it is fundamentally about whether we acknowledge that the President does not have unlimited power to disregard any law in his prosecution of a limitless and transnational war, under a veil of utmost secrecy and with the threat of criminal prosecution against even newspapers that dare to let the public know of these activities.

    The issue is about whether we want to consign Congress to irrelevance, presuming that its decades of deliberation on and amendment of the laws to take into account new threats are inferior to the President's unilateral determination that these laws are much too inconvenient. It's about whether we want Congress to not only abide by this open flouting of its established authority, but in fact to ratify that conduct by in effect rewarding the President with the most permissive legislation imaginable.

    This issue, marked in the clearest legal terms one could ask for, is about whether we want to reject the Founders' wisdom that our President not be given the powers of a King, and whether we want Congress essentially to become an advisory body with no binding effect on anything the Commander in Chief does in the name of national security.

    This issue is, unequivocally and fundamentally, about the Separation of Powers that define our very republic. This is not overstatement. Congress and the courts can either assert themselves now against this undeniable encroachment, or they will merely embolden the Office of the President, no matter who happens to occupy that office, to seize more and more power and allow less and less accountability.

    There are numerous examples in US history when we've surrendered "some privacies" in order to protect ourselves from mortal dangers, real (not imagined) threats to the very "American ideal" that you are so jealous to protect.

    I'm so glad you mentioned these moments in history. Let's take one, for example--the internment of Japanese US citizens during WWII. Would you not join me in acknowledging the plain fact that this was a terrible miscarriage of justice that provided absolutely no meaningful protection to the country?

    The times in our past when we abrogated our constitutional principles are lessons to learn from, not precedents to revel in. Do you not agree that we should celebrate the fact that we ever repudiated and corrected those injustices, instead of reveling in their occurrence? Also, isn't it orders of magnitude better to prevent an injustice from happening than to allow it to happen and only later atone for it?

    Your invocation of past injustices is curious indeed. Had voices such as yours continued to prevail, we would hardly acknowledge them as injustices at all.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous5:01 PM

    I believe we are under such a threat now, and the surrender of "some privacy" is but a small price to pay to ensure the "American ideal" survives into the next generation.

    Tell you what, coward. Seeing as I am not wetting myself with every pin drop. Seeing as I am not diving under my bed whenever someone yells, "BOO!", I am totally and absolutely unwilling to give up ANY of my privacy. Not one iota. And I'll be damned if I'll let people other than me sacrifice my privacy to save them the price of Depends diapers.

    Here's the deal. You panty-wetters are free to sacrifice YOUR privacy for security, but only YOURS. Anyone else want to become a family member with Big Brother can opt in and sacrifice their own personal privacy. As for the rest of us who aren't ruled by fear...we'll go on about our lives without the Big Brother shit. Mmmm-kay?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous5:01 PM

    there may be other relatively minor intrusions on our privacy that will occur.

    What you consider relatively minor may be unacceptably major to someone else. It's amazing how these people are willing to trade away the Constitutional Rights of other citizens.

    As for airplane travel, Walter Williams hasn't taken a flight since the Patriot Act was enacted.

    Some people are such wimps they go along with anything they're told to do by a figure of unlicensed authority.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous5:01 PM

    Speaking of men (straw and otherwise), what else would you be willing to give up ‘to prevent 100,000,000 dead?’

    - Your house?
    - Your bank account?
    - Your right to vote?
    - Your right to join a political party other than the party in power?
    - Your job?
    - Your choice of profession?
    - Your ability to live with your family?

    …All of these could arguably facilitate the prosecution of the GWOT.

    Perhaps in the fever swamp of your over-active imagination, but not in the real world.


    Really? As I recall, American citizens were ordered to give up their homes, their livelihoods and their jobs during the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. And the stakes then were significantly less than ‘100,000,000 dead.’

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous5:04 PM

    And I'll be damned if I'll let people other than me sacrifice my privacy to save them the price of Depends diapers.

    Priceless. More! More!

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous5:08 PM

    DCLaw1 @4:57. Outstanding summary of what is at stake, and why the "ceding a little privacy" canard is ignorant beyond uttering.

    Your comments are excellent.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Thanks so much, Hypatia. I actually mean it this time when I say I need to do something other than post to this thread (for now)!

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous5:20 PM

    Glenn wrote: If "huge news", to you, is defeat of the Specter bill, then - as my post this morning suggests - there many be good opportunities to generate yet more huge news.

    Yes, I see that! And if that were to happen I'd even say "huge news" would be an understatement for that type of development.

    I know what you meant by calling the judicial ruling "huge news" but I have learned to brace myself against expecting anything good to happen when I see the name Specter associated with it. What he reminds me most of is a bagman for the mob.

    Anyway, Glenn, I think we are all counting on your efforts to maximize the chances that Slithery Specter's bill will go down to defeat. What a truly amazing thing it is you came along when you did....

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  85. Anonymous5:22 PM

    I agree with Hypatia: Thank you dclaw1 for your eloquent series of posts.

    BTW, I apologize both for stomping on your Japanese Internment example, and for failing to differentiate between 'jobs' and 'livlihood' in mine. Comes from typing in a too much of a hurry.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous5:29 PM

    OT:

    This Will Come Back
    to Haunt Us.Against House Resolution 921


    I rise in opposition to this resolution, which I sincerely believe will do more harm than good. I do agree with the resolution's condemnation of violence. But I am convinced that when we get involved in foreign conflicts and send strong messages, such as this resolution will, it ends up expanding the war rather than diminishing the conflict, and that ultimately comes back to haunt us.

    Mr. Speaker, I follow a policy in foreign affairs called non-interventionism. I do not believe we are making the United States more secure when we involve ourselves in conflicts overseas. The Constitution really doesn't authorize us to be the policemen of the world, much less to favor one side over another in foreign conflicts. It is very clear, reading this resolution objectively, that all the terrorists are on one side and all the victims and the innocents are on the other side. I find this unfair, particularly considering the significantly higher number of civilian casualties among Lebanese civilians. I would rather advocate neutrality rather than pick sides, which is what this resolution does.

    Some would say that there is no room to talk about neutrality, as if neutrality were a crime. I would suggest there should be room for an open mind to consider another type of policy that may save American lives.

    I was in Congress in the early 1980s when the U.S. Marines were sent in to Lebanon, and I came to the floor before they went, when they went, and before they were killed, arguing my case against getting involved in that conflict.

    Ronald Reagan, when he sent the troops in, said he would never turn tail and run. Then, after the Marines were killed, he had a reassessment of the policy. When he wrote his autobiography a few years later after leaving the presidency, he wrote this:

    "Perhaps we didn't appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and the complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle. Perhaps the idea of a suicide car bomber committing mass murder to gain instant entry to Paradise was so foreign to our own values and consciousness that it did not create in us the concern for the Marines' safety that it should have. In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing that we should do was turn tail and leave. Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 Marines would be alive today."

    It is very easy to criticize the government of Lebanon for not doing more about Hezbollah. I object to terrorism committed by Hezbollah because I am a strong opponent of all violence on all sides. But I also object to the unreasonable accusations that the government of Lebanon has not done enough, when we realize that Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years and was not able to neutralize Hezbollah....

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  87. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Pallidoris said...

    Here's the deal. You panty-wetters are free to sacrifice YOUR privacy for security, but only YOURS. Anyone else want to become a family member with Big Brother can opt in and sacrifice their own personal privacy. As for the rest of us who aren't ruled by fear...we'll go on about our lives without the Big Brother shit. Mmmm-kay?


    Dead on. There is one catch though: some of the rights we are talking about are inalienable. That means that, depending on prevailing SCOTUS interpretations of exactly what those rights mean, none of us can actually give up such rights even if we sign our names to it. Something our anonymous friend might need to be reminded of.

    And it's a good thing too, because if that weren't the case, Pantywetters Anonymous would rush right on down to the special no-rights intake camp the moment it was announced that individuals could give away their inherited rights in exchange for a little security.

    It's too bad, because the high desert proved to be a great place to put internment camps 63 years ago. Some of them are still around. What an irony THAT would be . . .

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Kozinski's statement might not be worrying. He may be saying, if an imminent threat of nuclear annhilitation was extremely likely, then all bets are off. This is equivalent to, if you knew a terrorist was about to set off a radiological weapon, torturing him would be justified.

    Of course, no such state exists. The only time that such a situation has occured, reasonably speaking, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. What was done in that week may not hold up to close examination. But that is not the actual current case, ergo no such exemption exists.

    It doesn't sound unreasonable to me, just the hypothetical is extremely unlikely, and is currently unreasonable. In Kozinski's hypothetical, he may just be setting up an almost impossible standard to be reached.

    Unlike the neo-con trolls who wish to equate a deadly, but relatively small terrorist attack to armageddon.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous5:43 PM

    The issue of FISA and the NSA program is not just about our privacy vs. our security, it is fundamentally about whether we acknowledge that the President does not have unlimited power...

    Nonsense. Your use of the word "unlimited" is just plain silly. The president's decision to promugate the NSA warrantless surveillance program does not constitute an acquisition of "unlimited" power unless you decide to redefine the word "unlimited."

    This issue, marked in the clearest legal terms one could ask for, is about whether we want to reject the Founders' wisdom that our President not be given the powers of a King...

    You're repeating yourself here, perhaps for emphasis. In either case, your remarks are a gross exaggerations of reality. Given that the Specter bill is almost sure to pass, the worst thing you can accuse the president of doing is being slightly ahead of the public policy curve. Is that what you mean by the president being "given the powers of a King"?

    Would you not join me in acknowledging the plain fact that this was a terrible miscarriage of justice...

    Sure. I'll join you in exercising my self-righteous indignation fueled by 60 years of perfect 20-20 hindsight. It is, after all, a completely painless exercise, right?

    The times in our past when we abrogated our constitutional principles are lessons to learn from, not precedents to revel in.

    You're a bright guy, DCLaw1. The point wasn't to "revel" in the events of the past, but simply to point out that in that past we've sacrificed "some privacy" without destroying the Constitution. That is, after all, what Judge Kosinski was suggesting in the remarks quoted by Hypatia, remarks with which I wholeheartedly agree.

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  90. Anonymous5:46 PM

    And the stakes then were significantly less than ‘100,000,000 dead.’

    It turns out that only 50,000,000 died in that five year conflagration, so I guess the policy makers of the day were off by a whopping 50 per cent.

    Is that what you meant?

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  91. Anonymous5:50 PM

    The point wasn't to "revel" in the events of the past, but simply to point out that in that past we've sacrificed "some privacy" without destroying the Constitution.

    They can have my privacy (or the tiniest smidgen thereof) when they pry it from YOUR cold dead fingers (since you are assigning yourself the arbitor of what privacy rights I must give up).

    Not a chance, Clarence. Not a chance of snatching MY privacy to allay YOUR fear. I don't give a flying f*ck for your fear. It's your problem. Keep it your problem by keeping your fear-sweat-slicked hands off MY privacy and all will be well.

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  92. Anonymous6:00 PM

    Not a chance, Clarence. Not a chance of snatching MY privacy to allay YOUR fear.

    I take it you don't travel by air.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous6:06 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Not a chance, Clarence. Not a chance of snatching MY privacy to allay YOUR fear.

    I take it you don't travel by air.


    Anon may have a point. The useless, fear-stoked, invasions of privacy from which we seek to protect ourselves are no longer theoretical. They have already become routine in certain areas of life.

    Was that your point, Anon?

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:09 PM

    It turns out that only 50,000,000 died in that five year conflagration, so I guess the policy makers of the day were off by a whopping 50 per cent.

    Is that what you meant?


    Actually, no. For one thing, I didn't realize (or claim) that 'the policy makers of the day' were projecting 100,000,000 deaths unless the Japanese-Americans sacrificed their 'privacy.'

    My point was more along the line that, historically, governments are quite willing to sacrifice Constitutionally-guaranteed civil rights in the name of wartime expediency and efficiency. (Indeed, they are quite willing to sacrifice civil rights in the name of peacetime expediency, but that's another thread).

    It would be so much more efficient and secure if we lived under a dictatorship (as the President has pointed out), but I'd rather live as a free American citizen.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous6:13 PM

    The useless, fear-stoked, invasions of privacy from which we seek to protect ourselves are no longer theoretical. They have already become routine in certain areas of life.

    Was that your point, Anon?


    I don't consider the sacrifice of my privacy at airports "useless." Do you?

    It may be somewhat inefficient, since I believe that we should spend more time frisking swarthy middle-eastern types than grandmothers in wheelchairs, but such practices are (at least for now) quite beyond the PC pale.

    But nonetheless, the loss of (some of) our privacy at airports is hardly "useless."

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous6:20 PM

    ...I'd rather live as a free American citizen.

    And so we shall, even if we sacrifice "some privacy" in the cause of national security.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous6:28 PM

    All well & good, but seeing how there is little to no oversight in Spector's bill, how are we to know that this NSA spying is not directed at Bush's pollitical opponents and at voters in general, to fill in the blanks of the RNC's voter databases? What are we supposed to do, take the Bush administration at their word? How many lies must these guys tell you before you start to get the idea that the Bush administration is full of liars who do not hesitate to do so at any and every opportunity? Well?

    Ironicaly enough I still see Bill Clinton referred to as a serial liar...

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous6:28 PM

    I believe more than a few of those 50,000,000 dead were citizens of totalitarian states such as Germany,Japan,and the USSR.I'm pretty sure they didn't need warrants for wiretaps.

    ReplyDelete
  99. "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security."

    I guess we can imagine which "dam'd lib'rul" said that. The infamous terrorist sympathizer and American-hater, Ben Franklin.

    Considering that the original list of liberties (i.e. Bill of Rights) was much longer, I'd say they left only the *essential* liberties for insertion into the Constitution.

    I claim that I deserve those liberties. I choose not to sacrifice them for security. Can "Anonymous 6:20" understand that?

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous6:33 PM

    I choose not to sacrifice them for security.

    I take it you're another high-minded fellow who doesn't travel by air.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous7:05 PM

    But nonetheless, the loss of (some of) our privacy at airports is hardly "useless."

    Another fine point. The last time I tried to hijack a plane with a pair of tweezers, I was thwarted.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Eyes Wide Open: So you take it upon your conscience to advocate killing civilians there to fight off the bogeyman.

    Didn't do anything of the sort, actually, and I kinda resent the implication that I did. Do you remember the part about This judgment is quite apart from the morality of.... Well, believe it or not, I meant that part, too.

    I think we have, or rather had, many choices in the Middle East that don't include unqualified support for Israel's aerial butchery. Had we -- for example -- made it clear from the outset (say 1970 or so) that our support for Israel would depend upon genuine negotiations with the Palestinians, without preconditions other than Israel's own survival, and an end to Israel's settlement programs in the occupied territories, we might have avoided many, many deaths on both sides. Such an outcome wouldn't have been certain, of course -- hell it isn't even a certainty in retrospect.

    Unfortunately, we didn't even make the attempt, and like it or not, no one on the other side would trust us to be an honest broker now, especially after Iraq, and our recent threatening noises about Iran and Syria.

    We chose war with these people long ago. I personally didn't choose war, not then, not now, not ever. Please take me at my word on that.

    Still, war is what we have. The Arab populations of the so-called "front line states" have accepted our war. (We gave them very little choice.) Now we have a war, one which they may actually win, for all that the purely military capabilities of the two sides are even more lopsided than they were forty years ago.

    That's what I took Feingold's statement to mean. We shouldn't have any illusions; we're going to have to defend ourselves now, even as we look for whatever diminished opportunities our previous belligerencies have left us to make peace.

    And I repeat, the reality is that no one who doesn't make eternal pledges to Israel can get elected to any national office these days. If you try to skirt the subject, someone will come and ask you very pointed questions. If you want to try it out of a sense of moral outrage, go ahead. I'd wish you luck, but I wouldn't take bets at anything less than 50-1 odds.

    If anything I've said here makes me a morally obtuse babykiller in your eyes, so be it. At least I've had my say.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous7:50 PM

    The Specter Bill allowing FISC judicial review of claims against the NSA may be the only way for you to get around the state secrets privilege in discovery and get your court review of the program.

    U.S. District Judge Rebecca R. Pallmeyer just denied a motion by a criminal defendant to conduct discovery on whether the NSA conducted intelligence gathering against him because none of the evidence being offered by Justice prosecutors was provided by NSA.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/
    newsroom/chi-060717latchin,0,414166.story?
    coll=chi-news-hed

    ReplyDelete
  104. EWO,

    As a sort of postscript, let me say that by "defending ourselves," I don't mean trashing the Constitution, creating an Imperial Presidency, wholesale warrantless spying on our domestic population, or suspending the right of habeas corpus for citizens and resident aliens.

    I'm not for giving away anyone's rights, but I'm certainly for spending a lot of money on securing our ports, nuclear power facilities, chemical plants, etc.

    And when it comes to al Quaeda and the like, I think I might like greatly expanded contact with police and security forces worldwide, but especially in Europe, and an enormous expansion over time of foreign service/CIA personnel who actually speak Arabic and Farsi, and are familiar with the cultures of the Middle East. Perhaps we could be a little more careful about where we send expensive military assets and vulnerable soldiers, sailors and marines as well.

    It would also help, in my view, to stop electing morons to Congress and the Presidency, but that isn't something you can plan for at the best of times.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous8:03 PM

    William Timberman said...

    Unfortunately, we didn't even make the attempt, and like it or not, no one on the other side would trust us to be an honest broker now, especially after Iraq, and our recent threatening noises about Iran and Syria.

    Exactly which is why there is no second step for us except to get out of the way and let others who can act as honest brokers step in and try to reach a settlement that while not perfect is acceptable to both sides.

    Sorry about taking so long to get back to you on that, been busy with no time to post here.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Gris Lobo: there is no second step for us except to get out of the way and let others who can act as honest brokers step in and try to reach a settlement that while not perfect is acceptable to both sides.

    Bloody unlikely, in my view. Most eligible parties at the moment prefer Schadenfreude to pulling our chestnuts out of the fire, and who can blame them?

    No, this is our mess to get out of. We made it, and we're going to have to fix it. Allowing our allies to bomb people into the stone age isn't a promising start, in my opinion, but then no one at the Project for the New American Century asked me for my opinion, did they?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous8:52 PM

    Eyes Wide Open: So you take it upon your conscience to advocate killing civilians there to fight off the bogeyman.

    So, my dear Eyes Wide Open, why doesn’t this criticism apply to your precious Glenn Greenwald?

    Please, pretty please, point me to a Greenwald post that denounces this hideous Russ Feingold character.

    And, if you can’t point to such a post, or such a comment, doesn’t’ that make your beloved Greenwald guilty of “advocating killing of civilians” or, are you just full of crap?

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous10:07 PM

    The last time I tried to hijack a plane with a pair of tweezers, I was thwarted.

    Yeah, but your buddy Atta had better luck with something only slightly larger...a box cutter. Not much bigger, really, than a pair of tweezers, but hey...what's a box cutter when compaired to your privacy?

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  109. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  110. This post has been removed by the author.

    Arne, c'mon, out with it. Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  111. HWSNBN sez:

    The Specter Bill allowing FISC judicial review of claims against the NSA may be the only way for you to get around the state secrets privilege in discovery and get your court review of the program.

    U.S. District Judge Rebecca R. Pallmeyer just denied a motion by a criminal defendant to conduct discovery on whether the NSA conducted intelligence gathering against him because none of the evidence being offered by Justice prosecutors was provided by NSA.


    So if the NSA had provided evidence, then they could do discovery>? Sounds like someone is looking into who is and who isn't being snooped on. But that's just me. Irrational minds may differ.

    This, FWIW, seems to be what's happening in teh AT&T case too, where the judge looked at at least some of the evidence, and is waiting to make a decision as to whether real "state secrets" are involved there (he said "no" so far for the general question on whether there was a certification given to AT&T, and he may find other evidence not of a sufficiently sensitive nature so as to justify denying people their day in court).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous11:35 PM

    A little context: Bush/Cheney's elevation to power was one-party rule via SCOTUS in 2000, and via electronic fraud and scrubbing of voter rolls in '04. The system of checks and balances has been crippled by Congress' rolling over and approving Roberts/Alito. If you need to fear something, fear Bush with a finger on the nuclear button before you fear a Muslim with an RPG.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous11:42 PM

    If you need to fear something, fear Bush with a finger on the nuclear button before you fear a Muslim with an RPG.

    You're completely insane.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous12:07 AM

    Who wants a "nanny state" again? I forget.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous12:20 AM

    Anonymous said...
    Not a chance, Clarence. Not a chance of snatching MY privacy to allay YOUR fear.

    I take it you don't travel by air.


    I don't travel by air. It's completely irrational to fear air travel. It's the safest form of travel there is. Statistically speaking, air travel is far safer than any other form of travel yet you are far more likely to die in an air traffic accident than an air terrorism incident. I don't travel by air because it's a pain in the ass now, because of all the hysteria and intrusive security. The awful pain in the ears I used to experience from pressurized cabins and increasing and decreasing altitudes was bearable. But the combination of the pain in the ears and the ass is just too much. I won't do it.

    Whose insane? I don't fear Bush as much because of his proximity to the nuclear trigger. That's used to be a reactive, but now proactive event. I fear Bush because of his inactive responses more. We already lost a city because his ass was on vacation and his fingers strummed a guitar. I fear Cheney on a trigger more than Bush. Bush would likely shoot himself in the face.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous12:29 AM

    Anonymous said...
    The last time I tried to hijack a plane with a pair of tweezers, I was thwarted.

    Yeah, but your buddy Atta had better luck with something only slightly larger...a box cutter. Not much bigger, really, than a pair of tweezers, but hey...what's a box cutter when compaired to your privacy?


    Liberals are the new moderates. It was bound to happen, since liberals were the radicals that brought you the DOI (definitely a suicide pact), the Revolution, The Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Conservatives have always been about "drowning the baby in the bathtub" and throwing it out with the bathwater.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous: Conservatives have brought you destruction, wreck and ruin.

    Well, you might blame conservatives with some justification for the Depression, but not for the miseries of the present. The folks giving us all the tsuris these days are -- as somebody pointed out a while back -- the kind of authoritarian radicals who gave the Germans, the Italians and the Japanese such headaches seventy or so years ago.

    And I blush to admit it, but Liberal Internationalism led us step-by-step to the kind of New World Order nonsense that is part of our torment today. World War II, a war more just than most, gave us the means and the opportunity, and the Cold War furnished us with the incentive, but it was liberals who decided we just had to have Vietnam.

    I'm a liberal, both by instinct and by choice, but I don't believe it's fair to attribute our own sins to others.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous1:03 AM

    Glenn Greenwald, you are so amazing it sometimes make me cry, and I'm not just saying that because I'm actually you.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous2:11 AM

    William Timberman said...

    Gris Lobo: there is no second step for us except to get out of the way and let others who can act as honest brokers step in and try to reach a settlement that while not perfect is acceptable to both sides.

    Bloody unlikely, in my view. Most eligible parties at the moment prefer Schadenfreude to pulling our chestnuts out of the fire, and who can blame them?

    Definitely unlikely, but there is no way that we can be an honest broker as you and I both know. So looks like to me unless we are willing to step back (unlikely) and unless someone who can be an honest broker steps up (also unlikely) that our chestnuts will just keep on burning, mabe to a crisp.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous2:19 AM

    If our legislators get any more stoopid we are going to have to start calling them the cabbage head kids.

    "US senators warn China they may revive tariff bill
    Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:40pm ET

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. senators warned Beijing on Friday they could demand a vote on their bill threatening China with steep U.S. import duties because of the scant progress it has made revaluing its currency."

    At this point in time after having already moved the majority of our manufacturing off shore, much of it to China, the threat of tarriffs rings truly hollow. The only people tarriffs will hurt is our own.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Gris Lobo:

    Sadly, I agree. But there may be one other alternative, if we can clean house in Washington. Over time, we might gain back some of our credibility, if we actually did change our policies, and could be seen to do so. (Over a lot of time, I's be the first to admit. It would take at least a generation for any Muslim -- even the monarchs we've propped up -- to trust us.)

    The reason I believe that this is unlikely is not only the difficulty of purging the phony Realpolitikers from Washington, but also because we've given so many hostages to fortune vis-a-vis Israel itself.

    We say "Don't do such-and-such," and they give us the finger and do it anyway, because in their view it's their future on the line, and we don't know our asses from our elbows about these implacable Arabs.

    If a more competent administration than any we've had so far actually tried to make them pay a price for their intransigence, it would have an instant battle with every member of Congress from both parties, and half the lobbyists in Washington.

    The only way we'll ever regain any sort of influence over the Israelis is if they themselves screw up so badly that we have to rescue them, as we did in 1973. In the meantime, of course, they'll have killed who knows how many more thousands of Arabs.

    It's a real pickle. I'm sure glad I'm not president. (But of course, I don't seem to mind giving him advice, do I?) Presumptious, I agree, but it's not as though he didn't need it, either.

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  122. Will somebody please nominate Billmon for the Medal of Freedom? His Useless Idiots post this evening is the most brilliant diatribe against the mendacity of right-wing bloviators that I've read in ages.

    Imagine a sparkling blend of Publius and H.L. Mencken, it's that good.

    I won't provide a link; I'm sure everyone knows where he is.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous4:23 AM

    WT...Well, you might blame conservatives with some justification for the Depression, but not for the miseries of the present. The folks giving us all the tsuris these days are -- as somebody pointed out a while back -- the kind of authoritarian radicals who gave the Germans

    Who started out as conservatives. Radicals who bring about positive changes start out as liberals or progressives. Radicals who bring out negative and destructive changes start out as conservatives. Conservatism is the
    only defense of an aristocracy. The only argument for authoritarianism. It's Odd that you will always find them arguing the opposite. If you need more proof that's only projection than the current situation, you are bieng obtuse.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous4:59 AM

    Pallidoris and baldie eagle: great posts.

    Re: Billmon. The man is brilliant.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous5:17 AM

    Billmon: Back in days of the real gulags, the Stalinists used to talk about "useful idiots" -- well-meaning but hopelessly naive Western politicans and intellectuals (i.e. parlor pinks) who could be used to advance the proletarian cause, even though their reward in the event of an actual revolution would have been a one-way ticket to Siberia.

    That's Mona Charen's view.

    The term is purported to have been coined by Vladimir Lenin to describe those western reporters and travellers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West. However, no reference to a communist sympathizer or political leftist as a "useful idiot" was made in the United States until 1948, and not until decades later would the phrase be attributed to Lenin. In 1948, the phrase was used in a New York Times article in relation to Italian politics, and was not mentioned again in print until 1961. [1] The expression "useful idiot" has never been discovered in any published document of Lenin's, nor has anyone claimed to have heard him say it.

    In the United States, the term is sometimes used as a pejorative by political conservatives against political liberals. The tone of usage implies that the target of this sobriquet is ignorant of the facts to the extent that they end up unwittingly advancing an adverse cause that they might not otherwise support. The term gained increased use after the publication of conservative columnist and Reagan administration Mona Charen's 2004 book Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First.

    Since the September 11, 2001 attacks, the term "useful idiot" has also been used by some commentators to describe individuals said to take a softer line against Islamism and terrorism...


    What follows at Wiki is one of the saddest, right-wing propaganda and drivel to prove otherwise. It reminds one of the recent sockpuppet kerfuffle. "Useful Idiot" has always been an American, anti-liberal, anti-left rhetorical device. An invention to silence the opposition and as should be fairly obvious to all, as usual, downright projection. Prescient projection, perhaps. But projection none the less.



    Billmon: For the comrades of the modern authoritarian right, guys like Sullivan and Djerejian served a very similar purpose. But now they're not so useful any more, in fact they've been revealed as deviationists -- which means they must be struggled against, lest they infect the party cadres with their counterrevolutionary poison.

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  126. Anonymous5:21 AM

    Even Billmon can make a slight error. As he said in his brilliant post...

    "It would take an almost superhuman sense of compassion not to relish the sight of the tormenters being tormented by the likes of Hugh Hewitt, Michelle Malkin and Glenn Reynolds. And thank God, I'm only human."

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous5:48 AM

    Anonymous... In either case, all of my remarks are gross exaggerations of reality. Given that the Specter bill is almost sure to pass, the worst thing you can accuse the president of doing is being slightly ahead of the subpenas and summons to appear before Congress and the opportunity to tell it to a judge. Is that what you mean by the president being "not being given the powers of a King"?

    Much better. Conforms with reality.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous6:39 AM

    William Timberman said...

    Gris Lobo:

    Sadly, I agree. But there may be one other alternative, if we can clean house in Washington. Over time, we might gain back some of our credibility, if we actually did change our policies, and could be seen to do so. (Over a lot of time, I's be the first to admit. It would take at least a generation for any Muslim -- even the monarchs we've propped up -- to trust us.)

    I have been advocating cleaning house in Washington for a long time. Of course nobody listens but I'm sure they haven't felt the need to. What is surprising though is that some that are infinitely more prominent than myself are starting to call for the same thing.

    I do definitely agree that that is the only way we are ever going to regain any credibilty, and not just in the mideast.

    Of course as long as we allow the elite to continue to vote themselves bread and circuses while convincing the general populace that it is good to let them do so, things will never change.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous: Radicals who bring out negative and destructive changes start out as conservatives.

    Hitler? Lenin? Stalin? I'm sorry anonymous, but as I see it, your theories of evil 1) lack subtlety, and 2) are historically inaccurate.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous:

    About Billmon's inaccuracy, I remember once that he used the wrong gender for a German noun. Painful to see it so prominently displayed for someone who knew German, but I don't think it harmed his case otherwise.

    In this instance, if your research is correct, it's more of a problem, since the analogy he draws is more or less the hook from which the whole piece hangs.

    This is one of the inconveniences of blogging. If you write for the NYT or the New Yorker, you have fact checkers. If you're a blogger, you have Google and Wikipedia, plus you're in a hurry.

    Even very knowledgable people can fall prey to faulty memory, hoaxes or urban legends. Caveat lector is never a bad idea in any event, as nonsense masquerading as wisdom is as old as writing itself.

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  131. Anonymous9:17 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Gris Lobo: Of course as long as we allow the elite to continue to vote themselves bread and circuses while convincing the general populace that it is good to let them do so, things will never change.

    Amen, Reverend Lobo, amen.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous9:44 AM

    Anon, You may believe this:

    ... I believe that we should spend more time frisking swarthy middle-eastern types than grandmothers in wheelchairs, but such practices are (at least for now) quite beyond the PC pale.

    but, in general, it has been shown that profiling reduces security as compared to random somapling.

    I can find you the reference if you like, but I can summarize the study roughly as follows.

    If profiling is performed, terrorists can (using practice runs through security) "reverse engineer" the profile. They can then either modify their appearance or recruit sympathizers that don't meet the profile who will have a better than average chance to penetrate security.

    That is why random sampling is used. Nothing to do with PC.

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  134. Anonymous10:09 AM

    Baldie Eagle:

    The last time I tried to hijack a plane with a pair of tweezers, I was thwarted.

    Anon:
    your buddy Atta had better luck with something only slightly larger...a box cutter. Not much bigger, really, than a pair of tweezers, but hey...what's a box cutter when compaired to your privacy?


    Anon, the fact is Atta and company made a genuine innovation by using a simple weapon (rather than guns or explosives) and taking advantage of our disbelief that they would kill themselves and all aboard.

    We have innovated in response by installing locked security doors to the cockpoint and adjusting our reality to accept that terrorists would, in fact, crash a fully loaded plane into a building (remarkably, the passengers on United flight 93 made this latter innovation in real time).

    You see, no need to give up any civil liberties to obtain this protection (unless you think you have an inalienable right to enter the cockpit). Just sensible measures.

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  135. Anonymous10:40 AM

    You see, no need to give up any civil liberties to obtain this protection...

    Sure there is. Airport security officials are not only looking for tweezers. They're also searching for explosives of various forms, handguns, shoe bombs, weapons of all descriptions, chemical poisons, and whatever else you can imagine.

    Their ability to detect such things among millions of travelers would be fatally compromised if they were compelled to act only on a "probable cause" basis. This necessarily means that we suffer the loss of "some privacy" if we decide to travel by air.

    On your point regarding "profiling," we simply disagree. I am sure we could both find scholarly studies on both sides of the question, but the present policy defies common sense. The "random" searches that do not discriminate between a blind grandmother and a twenty year old Saudi male would be laughable of they weren't so pathetic.

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  136. Anonymous11:23 AM

    how much of a straw man is the argument here about airport security? Who has made an argument here, or in any relevant post/discussion, about not wanting to increase airport/airline security in the wake of 9/11? Who is making claims that metal detectors in airports are violations of civil liberties?

    I should be free from surveillance in my own damn home, on my own damn phone, at my job, when I am not engaging in an activity which, by its very nature, increases the security risk to society at large. I am willing to acknowledge a greater risk inherent in the operation of a machine such as an airplane, and the attendant societal responsibility to submit to greater scrutiny of my person and property to avail myself of that opportunity.

    No one, in the months that I have been reading this blog, ever brought up the idea that airport security was a civil rights issue until you jackasses today. Inconvenient and invasive and annoying and idiotically implemented, but not a civil rights violation.

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  137. Anonymous11:30 AM

    William Timberman said...
    Anonymous: Radicals who bring out negative and destructive changes start out as conservatives.

    Hitler? Lenin? Stalin? I'm sorry anonymous, but as I see it, your theories of evil 1) lack subtlety, and 2) are historically inaccurate.


    Hitler wasn't a conservative? You're the one who has a difficulties with historical inaccuracies. Hitler was as anti-liberal as they come. His anti-liberal rhetoric in Mein Kampf is literally almost indistinguishable from Ann Coulter's. She probably plagiarized it as well. Stalin doesn't belong on your short list. He was always an authoritarian strongman. You do know how and why he chose the name, Stalin, don't you? Lenin is another matter and you are still focusing on the one exception which neither proves nor dispoves any rule. Most revolutions get hijacked by the very types of people they are intended to depose. I don't think John Reed was a stupid and gullible "useful idiot" and he was there and witnessed it "go wrong". I doubt his politics would have changed much, if you are intending to smear the left.

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  138. Anonymous11:37 AM

    On your point regarding "profiling," we simply disagree. I am sure we could both find scholarly studies on both sides of the question, but the present policy defies common sense. The "random" searches that do not discriminate between a blind grandmother and a twenty year old Saudi male would be laughable of they weren't so pathetic.

    What's pathetic is your understanding of terrorists and their methods, which is why you and the people you support, including that goober in the WH, are a more immediate threat to national security. By your logic a pregnant young blonde white woman wouldn't be searched or an elderly grandma. The young white woman's "husband" isn't traveling with her but he helped pack her bags and he's a westernized sleeper of Arabic descent. Anybody could easily slip something into an elderly grandma's carry on luggage in the bustle and confusion of an airport. You are too stupid for words. Travel by automobile more often. We need to "thin the herd" from the weak-minded like yourself.

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  139. Anonymous11:45 AM

    Anon, the fact is Atta and company made a genuine innovation by using a simple weapon (rather than guns or explosives) and taking advantage of our disbelief that they would kill themselves and all aboard.

    This comes as a surprise to someone?

    We have innovated in response by installing locked security doors to the cockpoint and adjusting our reality to accept that terrorists would, in fact, crash a fully loaded plane into a building (remarkably, the passengers on United flight 93 made this latter innovation in real time).

    Which the Israelis did long ago. Why wasn't it done here? Profit and the bottom line. On any individual aircraft, you, personally are just so much baggage. Cattle. They don't give a rat's ass about you, personally, or your pregnant wife or your blind grandmother. They care that another incident will be "bad for business".

    You see, no need to give up any civil liberties to obtain this protection (unless you think you have an inalienable right to enter the cockpit). Just sensible measures.

    Exactly.

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  140. Anonymous11:48 AM

    Who is making claims that metal detectors in airports are violations of civil liberties?

    We're not talking about metal detectors, but about warrantless physical searches, interrogations, and other invasions of privacy that occur regularly at the whim of the airport authorities. These acts are among those that (I assume) Judge Kosinski was referring to when he said that the loss of "some privacy" is worth the added security benefits derived thereof.

    I should be free from surveillance in my own damn home, on my own damn phone, at my job, when I am not engaging in an activity which, by its very nature, increases the security risk to society at large.

    Well, you generally are today, unless, of course, you're calling someone overseas whose name was found in a captured al Qaida cell phone or computer, or that person is calling you. Kosinski's point was that the loss of that small measure of privacy is well worth the price. The fact that you don't agree is too bad, of course, but once the Specter bill passes and is signed by the president, there isn't a damn thing you're going to be able to do about it.

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  141. Anonymous11:58 AM

    We're not talking about metal detectors, but about warrantless physical searches, interrogations, and other invasions of privacy that occur regularly at the whim of the airport authorities. These acts are among those that (I assume) Judge Kosinski was referring to when he said that the loss of "some privacy" is worth the added security benefits derived thereof.

    Shut up, you idiot. All searches at airports are warrantless and legal. You are already arguing yourself in a hole because you are a brainless drone. Warrantless searches of anyone's home are not necessary nor will they make you safer and Kozinski isn't arguing that. And now that we know you can read judge Kozinski's mind I suppose we can dispense with you and everything you have ever posted here or uttered anywhere else. That includes the real world and the fantasy world you inhabit. Run along. Your tin foil hat has tarnished in the cold light of reason.

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  142. Anonymous12:15 PM

    I think here we're witnessing a real-life example of the phenomenon known as the "angry left."

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  143. Anonymous12:38 PM

    It seems to me more like anonymous arguing with himself (or herself).

    If you guys (or gals) don't give a hoot about privacy, why don't you just post with your real names and let the rest of us follow your (admittedly inane, but mildly humorous) discussion.

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  144. Anonymous7:21 PM

    ABA President Michael Greso bashes the Specter bill at the House FISA Hearing:

    Crooksandliars Video

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  145. Anonymous7:55 PM

    Glenn,

    It's not lawful to pass legislation that targets pending litigation. Where's your amicus brief to have the bill, if it is passed, struck down by the NSA-related courts as unconstitutional?

    Get writing, then I might be impressed.

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  146. Anonymous8:01 PM

    Glenn:

    I'm very late to this discussion. Hopefully you know that this blog is a constant source of insipiration and knowledge for me. Incidentally, I just bought your book today. However, I'm not sold 100% on your interpretation of Specter's bill.

    I recognize that stripping the current lawsuits from their current courts takes us from apparently friendly territory into unknown territory. I know that the bill authorizes FISA to dismiss the lawsuits and the consideration of the NSA program. I know that the bill doesn't officially require Bush to submit the program to FISA. These are all obvious weaknesses, and I'm probably inclined not to support the specter bill.

    However:

    1# Whether or not GWB submits the NSA program for review doesn't matter, does it, because the lawsuits will force a ruling on the program by the FISA court anyway, right? The ruling on the lawsuit will be functionally identical to a ruling on the NSA program. Right?

    #2 Assuming #1 is somehow not true - assuming Bush does his part under Specter's bill, and since it's been openly stated that the bill is predicated on that, he's sort of compelled to, and considering the coming changes to Congress, he'd be a fool not to - considering all of that, and assuming Bush submits the program - that is a clear path to, essentially, victory for us, right? Isn't FISA review of the program what we wanted? Aren't they highly likely to deem it unconstitutional? To deny it? It doesn't fit anything like FISA's parameters. It should be DOA.

    So, while there are objectionable things about Specter's bill, it still presents the genuine possibility, even likelihood, of ending the NSA program, right?

    Right?

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  147. Anonymous1:48 AM

    Mr Greenwald:
    I accuse you of being a liar. Please clarify why you posted on various boards under several names, and then denied doing such? I don't care about the posts so much as the denial.
    Thank you.
    James W. Cooper (Alear)

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous6:15 AM

    Great points, Glenn! Of course I'd expect no less from a NY Times Bestselling author who gets quoted by senators!

    Keep up the work and don't worry about all those jealous wingers who aren't constitional lawyers!

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  149. Anonymous4:50 PM

    Thanks for the post Glenn. Specter is one vile mofo. Dissembler. Lackey. Criminal.

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  150. Anonymous6:28 PM

    Why is everyone bringing up airline security as "loss of privacy"? You're paying for an elective service, so you abide by certain rules. It's a contract, the same way that you can't claim you're being oppressed by health codes that don't allow you to go to restaurants naked and unwashed.

    Careful searches at airports and warrantless wiretapping and data collection of Americans without their consent are radically different. The former can be avoided if one does not wish to give one's assent and instead is willing to travel another way. Secret spying has no assent component.

    Incidentally, all the airport security actually does is make people FEEL better--has it caught even one terrorist? Since 9/11--which I lived in Manhattan during, so I know a good sight better than most of the flyover neocon dirtbags what "being attacked" feels like--I have accidentally carried knives aboard planes four times. They were small, keychain swiss-army pieces, but I forgot to take them out of my carry-on. Only ONCE was one ever found, and that was by the British, and because it was still on my keychain and in plain sight.

    Airport security is a fig-leaf, much like this wiretapping is. It's cover for much more invasive intents.

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  151. Anonymous1:55 AM

    I'm sorry, I can't find the portions that Glenn mentions in his text as 702(b)((2)) and 702(b)((6)). The 702(b) section that I see on the Thomas site does not have numbers in it.

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  152. Anonymous11:37 AM

    Anonymous @ 11:52 a.m.:

    If we're so dumb, what does that make you?

    Honest.

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  153. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Does anyone remember the "Single Bullet Theory?" Google Specter and that phrase to get an idea how stupid/dangerous/evil this man is (take any of these descriptions or combine them, as you please).

    - estragon

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