Thursday, July 27, 2006

Even neoconservatives now accepting defeat in Iraq

David Frum was one of the leading neoconservative advocates of the invasion of Iraq. The former Bush speechwriter is a true believer, having co-authored a radical neoconservative book with Richard Perle entitled An End to Evil: How to Win the War on Terror, which -- according to its publisher -- "calls for the United States to overthrow the government of Iran, abandon support of a Palestinian state, blockade North Korea, use strong-arm tactics with Syria and China, disregard much of Europe as allies, and sever ties with Saudi Arabia."

But in a strikingly candid essay on his National Review blog yesterday, Frum all but admits that the U.S. invasion of Iraq has been a failure, and says that the only realistic goal we can hope to achieve is preventing Iraq from becoming a training ground for Al Qaeda -- a goal which was already achieved, of course, prior to our invasion:

Hands up, everybody who believes that the "hundreds" of troops that the Pentagon plans to move from the rest of Iraq into Baghdad will suffice to secure the capital against the sectarian militias now waging war upon the civilian populations of the city? Anybody? No, I didn't think so.

To take back the capital from the militias that now terrorize it will take thousands, not hundreds, of American plus tens of thousands of Iraqis. . . . So a real plan for success in Baghdad will have to be built upon additional troops from out of area, potentially raising US troop levels back up to the 150,000 or so of late 2005.

Manifestly, neither the administration nor the Congress will contemplate such a move. Which means, most likely, continuing violence in Iraq and a continuing rise in the power of the militias, especially the Iranian-backed Shiite militias: the Hezbollah of Iraq.

Frum has been arguing for the last five years, at least, that Iran is an evil supporter of international terrorism and a monumental threat to the U.S. Indeed, Frum is credited with creating the phrase "axis of evil" when he was at the Bush White House, which famously included Iran, and even now is agitating for confrontation with Iran. And yet, by Frum's own admission, the invasion of Iraq which he and his comrades so desperately wanted, has delivered control of Iraq into the hands of our arch Iranian enemies, and Frum admits that the U.S. has no realistic hope of doing anything to reverse that result.

Frum now admits that the sectarian civil war will rage on until Shiites assert total dominion over Baghdad and all of Southern Iraq, at which point "Baghdad - and therefore central Iraq - will in such a case slide after Basra and the south into the unofficial new Iranian empire." About this result, Frum admits: "The consequences for the region and the world will be grim."

Admitting that the Bush administration, in an election year, will not deploy additional troops to Iraq, Frum says that the best we can hope for in Iraq is the essentially defeatist plan urged in a New York Times Op-Ed by Bill Clinton's Ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith. Galbriath points out that the Iraqi government actually governs nothing beyond the Green Zone in Baghdad and that -- as Frum accepts -- it is impossible for the U.S. to stop the civil war or re-take control from Shiite militias without substantially increasing our troop presence there.

With those premises in place, Galbriath advocates -- and, notably, Frum accepts -- that the U.S. military should withdraw entirely from the Sunni region and re-deploy as a small “over the horizon” force in Kurdistan. The rationale for Galbraith's plan is this:

Seeing as we cannot maintain the peace in Iraq, we have but one overriding interest there today — to keep Al Qaeda from creating a base from which it can plot attacks on the United States. Thus we need to have troops nearby prepared to re-engage in case the Sunni Arabs prove unable to provide for their own security against the foreign jihadists. . . .

Yes, a United States withdrawal from the Shiite and Sunni Arab regions of Iraq would leave behind sectarian conflict and militia rule. But staying with the current force and mission will produce the same result. Continuing a military strategy where the ends far exceed the means is a formula for war without end.

So that's what our mission in Iraq has been reduced to -- ceding most of Iraq to Iranian control and acknowledging that a civil war is now inevitable and we can do nothing to stop it. Worse, the only thing we can possibly hope to accomplish is to prevent Al Qaeda from turning Iraq into its new terrorist training ground, something it was entirely incapable of doing prior to our invasion.

Put another way, in exchange for the thousands of lives lost, hundreds of billions of dollars squandered, and destruction of U.S. credibility as a result of our invasion, the best we can hope for is what we already had -- a situation where Al Qaeda cannot run free in Iraq -- along with a vicious civil war and control by Iranian mullahs over most of Iraq. And that is what one of the leading neconservative advocates of the war is saying.

Americans have long ago recognized what even David Frum (though, notably, not Joe Lieberman) now admits -- that our invasion of Iraq will produce no real benefits and that our continued presence there can achieve nothing. The newly released NYT-CBS poll shows that a solid majority of Americans favor "a timetable for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq" -- precisely what the President most steadfastly refuses to accept. With even David Frum endorsing a close permutation of the "over the horizon" re-deployment which Jack Murtha months ago advocated, Democrats should have no trouble unifying on this issue and advocating that Republicans should be turned out of office for stubbornly and destructively clinging to the prosecution of a war which cannot possibly achieve any good.

When Howard Dean, in the wake of Saddam Hussein's capture, questioned whether the invasion of Iraq would make the U.S. "safer," he was ridiculed by virtually everyone as a radical and a lunatic, with the ridicule led by Joe Lieberman. But reality has become too overwhelming for all but the most manipulative political figures to deny. As a result, there are very few people left willing to defend the invasion and occupation as anything other than a disaster, but the remaining holdouts happen to be sitting in the White House (and in one of Connecticut's Senate seats). That discrepency is disastrous for American interests, but is an excellent opportunity for Democrats to finally make the case that this administration has been a failure on every level, not just including -- but especially -- in the area of national security.

245 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:27 AM

    Well of course Frum going to admit he was wrong about Iraq....

    Because he has a new oppurtuinty to "redeem" himself by pushing for war against Iran and Syria....

    We will hear the same arguements trotted out by this cabal of war-mongering sycophants.....

    The shame of it is while these guys are playing a high stakes game of 'Risk' with the lives of innocent civilians and American Soldiers.....no one in the media has EITHER the courage to call out these dangerous extremists for their incorrect assessments in regards to the launching an ill concieved war OR the sense to realize that history will repeat itself if the media idly sits by and let the events in the Middle East unfold without casting a critical eye on the dispersions dispensed by these warmongers.

    -lib4

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  2. Anonymous11:37 AM

    Another brilliant post, Glenn! This post along with your post on the rightwing's authoritarian cultism perfectly define why America is in such a monstrously disgraceful and repulsive state. Republicans, with the ever-enabling media, will continue to ruin everything that was once great about the USA - what it once stood for, it's values, and it's desire for goodwill on this planet. I don't know how this is all going to play out, but we can be 100% sure that as long as Americans ignorantly support and/or do nothing to remove the cancer in Washington undermining this country under the guise of 'democracy', 'liberty' or (most perverse of all) 'morality', the USA will end up justifiably despised and seen as the world's greatest threat to peace.

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  3. And with Frum now willing to acknowledge his own grandiose tomfoolery, and the defeat he and his colleagues have snatched from the jaws of victory for us, can bart be far behind?

    I'll hazard a guess: nie wieder 1975 will be his new slogan, or perhaps the one I saw on a wall poster in a photograph taken in 1943 in southern Italy: Credere, obbedire, combattere! Or, in the Queen's English, no, no, no.

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  4. Anonymous11:41 AM

    Hands up anyone who thinks our resident contrarians will attempt to defend this mess with a modicum of honesty.

    Anyone?

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  5. truth will come
    to light; murder cannot be hid long; a man's son
    may, but at the length truth will out.

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  6. Anonymous11:49 AM

    They have to bring this chapter to a "close" if they are going to move on to their next war - so is anyone really surpised?

    It matters not whether they proclaim "mission accomplished" of something on a lesser scale of success - this was really all about enabling the military industrial complex, of which the oil segment is an important component.

    They have succeeded in stealing BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars, ruined the country's fiscal integrity, and it will seem "rational" to discuss eliminating Social Security. After they steal key races in 2006, they will proclaim to have a "mandate" to privatize virtually everything.

    I think it is wrong to characterize the neoconservatives response as "accepting defeat in Iraq", they never had a plan to win anyhow.

    War is always an economic assault on the working people of a county's own citizens - yes fools, it was "mission accomplished" indeed.

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  7. I have an analogy for the neocons and other warmongers which goes like this: the middle east (or any other troubled region) is like a tinder dry forest with smoldering camp fires all over it. The neocons, while never having so much as roasted a marshmellow, offer themselves up as the foremost experts at preventing and fighting forest fires and proclaim that the best course is to douse the campfires with gasoline. When the inevitable and entirely predictable happens, the only conclusion the neocons will ever be able to reach is that they must not have used enough gasoline.

    Now there are two schools of thought as to what exactly they were thinking. The first is that they really are stupid enough to believe you can put out fires with gasoline (i.e. end multi-generational conflicts and cycles of violence resentment, and hatred with more violence). The second is that they knew exactly what the results of their policies would be, but if they openly admitted what they intended no one would follow them. So instead they pretend not to be able to see something that should be a matter of simple common sense.

    Either way, when enough of them are presented to the public as experts and their plan as not only sensible, but the only rational solution, people put aside their own common sense and cede to 'expert' stupidity. A combination of government and a complicit media is able to create a conventional wisdom which should not be able to stand up to even the simplest common sense criticism, but that is never allowed. Instead any challenge to the conventional stupidity is immediately attacked as irresponsible, extremist and even immoral. Is this what Orwell called groupthink?

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  8. Notice the twist in his logic that allows him to not admit that HE was wrong. He's still pretending that we could succeed IF we commited enough troops.

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  9. shooter242: Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive

    An instruction that was necessary only for those who were a) inncocent of history, and b) morally obtuse.

    shooter242: governing religious fundamentalist killers

    Excuse me, but when have you ever been interested in doing that?

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  10. Notice the twist in his logic that allows him to not admit that HE was wrong. He's still pretending that we could succeed IF we commited enough troops.

    Exactly - they admit failure only by blaming others for not executing their brilliant plan properly. But an admission of failure it is nonetheless.

    It is possible that Frum is working here with a hidden agenda. Some say the real goal of neocons all along was the reduce Iraq to chaos and anarchy. It's so clearly the case that they will tout Iranian control over Iraq (which THEY brought about) as a reason to consider Iran such a grave threat that we must confront them.

    Nonetheless, what Frum says is happening in Iraq is accurate, and it is the opposite of what the administration said would happen and that it wanted to happen. Thus, no matter Frum's motives, his is a declaration of failure in Iraq.

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  11. reality has become too overwhelming for all but the most manipulative political figures to deny
    And yet, there still are a few-- Dick Cheney, Rick Santorum, Joe Lieberman, William Krystol, etc.

    I think everyone that supported the war should be forced to wear a giant red "W" on their lapels.

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  12. Anonymous12:05 PM

    Well, if Frum is writing these defeatist things, it can only be because he isn't a true Jew. (Offered for entertainment value.)

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  13. Anonymous12:07 PM

    Shooter

    As amply said in previous treads you are not even worth the contempt.

    Pathetic mooron..

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  14. Anonymous12:08 PM

    Shooter242

    Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive and well worth the money and lives invested.



    Let me take a wild guess. You, like the entire neocon movement, have no military experience.

    Listening to pro-war supporters is like listening to a child talk about sex.

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  15. Anonymous12:12 PM

    shooter: Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive and well worth the money and lives invested.

    "Instructive?!" This is one of the most disgusting assertions I have read in a long, long time. Fuck you.

    We now know there is a consensus between Mr. Frum and the left, that the only way to effectively contain Muslim Death Squads is to have a person in charge that has no qualms about killing his fellow Muslims. In the thousands if need be.

    No, we only see that you cannot install a democracy by force, which everyone except neocons sees as self-evident. You can't see any alternatives besides killing civilians and paying off dictators? You're sick.

    Democracy is the natural outgrowth of increased economic liberty and genuine free trade. Instead of playing totalitarian states off of each other (you don't even know to what I'm referring, I'm sure) the proper and natural way to foment democracy is to increase business opportunities for the people. Power therefore is diffused away from the central position. History shows this.

    History also shows that you cannot remake the world by force. Look at the Marxists. They failed utterly, and many, many people died.

    And it's no fucking coincidence that many neocons (like that slimeball Horowitz) were originally revolutionary Marxists. They just picked up a new ideology for the surface gloss.

    Get a clue. The neocons only pretend to care about democracy. They're fucking criminals. You should have no truck with them.


    (sorry for the swears, your comment really pissed me off)

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  16. I just want to note that Galbraith took this position quite some time ago. He has an article in the current NYRoB on Iraq.

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  17. Glenn: Some say the real goal of neocons all along was the reduce Iraq to chaos and anarchy.

    If so, they've done a marvelous job. I do think, though, that you credit them with entirely too much savoir faire.

    I suppose it's possible that they're actually stupid enough to have been aiming at Armageddon all along, but I doubt it. Control freaks of the kind that they seem to be are never comfortable with chaos, or with Heraclitean decision making. I think that, at this point, they are frantically temporizing.

    Which, if I may say so, is definitely not good for the Jews -- or for any of God's chillun, for that matter.

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  18. anonymous: Listening to pro-war supporters is like listening to a child talk about sex.

    So say we all.

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  19. Anonymous12:19 PM

    Shooter242 offers a snarky and senseless post, to which one must respond: our failure in Iraq--inevitable--is not a "recognition" or admission that dictatorship in Iraq is required OR that democracy there must be a failure. It is illustrative that democracy, however configured, can only be erected by those who will live in it, and cannot be imposed from without by external forces.

    Of course, we never cared about establishing a "democracy" in Iraq and anyone who states that is a fool or a willful promulgator of administration propaganda. Our purported justification was to "defend ourselves" (sic) against Hussein's imminent attack on us with his bristling array of WMD. "Democracy for Iraqis" was merely window-dressing, to make it appear as if there were actually a comprehensive bill of particulars to justify prosecuting our illegal aggresive war against Iraq. When the WMD proved to be nonexistent, the window-dressing became the whole show. This was another fatal impediment to our preordained failure: our cynical shifting of reasons for invading Iraq revealed that we really had no convictions that we were fighting for, which led to the next fatal impediment to our successful accomplishment of our crime: not enough troops were sent to secure the country and prevent the breakdown of civic order which has led to the current bloody impasse. If we had really believed it important to "free the Iraqis" and help them establish their own democracy, we would have committed however many troops the generals felt were necessary to do the job safely and effectively. That Rumsfeld and his toadies rejected the estimates of troop strength that we now know were truly needed reveals that we were trying merely to effect "regime change" on the cheap, with the aftermath incountry being of no consequence to the swine residing in our halls of power.

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  20. That this would be the outcome could be foreseen very early on. Two years ago, my husband and I mapped out this very result at the dinner table. It was really predictable that Iraq would end up as 3 sectors and that the Kurds would need our protection and be our only supporters. That the Shiites would ally with Iran required no brilliant insight. Only idealists and ideologues would ever have believed otherwise.

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  21. But reality has become too overwhelming for all but the most manipulative political figures to deny.

    With 50% of Americans still believing that WMDs were found in Iraq the idea of an overwhelming reality may be a thing of the past. As long as FOX "news" and their mendacious brethren continue to misinform the public there will be plenty of room for the most manipulative politicians to work their machinations.

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  22. Anonymous12:29 PM

    Bushco should rot in prison for renting our military to the oil companies.

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  23. There was a Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday focused on the Specter/Bush/Cheney bill. The NYT account seems to be the best: Administration and Critics, in Senate Testimony, Clash Over Eavesdropping Compromise.

    JAO - I am working on an article on the Specter bill and the Judiciary Committtee hearing for publication in a magazine for this Sunday, which is why I didn't blog about it today. But that hearing was amazing in many ways, and - for the reasons I will set forth in that article - I really think that defeat of this Specter bill is the most important political objective there is right now.

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  24. Anonymous12:36 PM

    With those premises in place, Galbriath advocates -- and, notably, Frum accepts -- that the U.S. military should withdraw entirely from the Sunni region and re-deploy as a small “over the horizon” force in Kurdistan. The rationale for Galbraith's plan is this:
    Rationale? Rationale? Rationale?
    Please explain the logistics of a force in Kurdistan. Logistics as in: fuel, food, and various other supplies.

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  25. Anonymous12:41 PM

    Glenn:

    For the past couple months, your posts have alternatively ridiculed the evil neocons for being clueless and then citing those same neocons as experts whenever they have doubts about the progress of the war.

    Which is it?

    Frum is part of the neoncon faction which has been agitating for more troops in Iraq to crush the enemy.

    In this case, Frum is clueless.

    There is absolutely no danger any longer of the enemy achieving a military victory and taking over the Iraqi government. The combatants are avoiding engaging US and increasingly Iraqi military units. Nor is there a civil war with militias battling for territory ala Lebanon. Rather, the fighting has degenerated down to a terror campaign of mass murder against civilians.

    Mass murder of civilians has never won a war for terrorists - See Ireland, Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain and Israel.

    Nor can terrorist mass murder of civilians be solved by military force alone. There are too many civilian targets spread over too much land to protect them all - especially against suicide attacks. The excellent British and Israeli militaries could never protect civilians from the IRA and the various Arab terror groups, respectively. Thus, there is no reason to expect our troops or the Iraqis to be able to accomplish that feat. There are already well over 100,000 Iraqi and US military in Baghdad.

    The Iraqi on Iraqi civilian murders can only be solved politically by the Iraqis the same way the Irish finally reached their political settlement.

    We have achieved all of our pre war goals except for finishing the development of the de Baathified Iraqi military. Our war is essentially won. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his original plan of handing over territory to the Iraqis and gradually drawing down our troops as the Iraqis take over.

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  26. Anonymous12:42 PM

    The NYT piece claims that, on hearing strong objections to the mess he's attempted to foist on us, Specter looked stunned. Is he a great actor? Is he stunned that someone actually read the bill? Or does he really not understand what the WH is trying to get him to do?

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  27. Anonymous12:44 PM

    "Hands up!" is a good way to start with the neocons. Then cuff them (about the ears and upside their heads) put them in chains and frog march them off to prison. Then we should execute them as traitors.

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  28. Anonymous12:46 PM

    Nice piece of analysis, Glenn. I disagree with one of the commenters in that I think we give these idiots too much credit to assert that the quagmire in Iraq was the product of some grand neocon plan. However, I do agree about the possible result. The U.S. is becoming so inextricably involved in the Middle East that we very well may get trapped into something very dangerous and very scary -- and it may not matter who the president is.

    I still think they expected Cakewalks I, II, and III -- Iraq, then Syria, then Iran. People joke about Pierce's C + Augustus title for Bush, but I think they saw Bush as becoming a latter day emperor reigning over peace, love, and pro-American rule in the Middle East.

    The problem now is that may get their wars anyway, only it's going to be so much worse than they expected. But, no problem. None of them will die.

    What I'm still wondering is just how bad it will have to get before the corporatists tell them enough is enough. It's one thing to get young Americans killed in war. it's another thing to fuck with American capitalism.

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  29. Anonymous12:51 PM

    Bart...There is absolutely no danger any longer of the enemy Zzzzzzz....

    I hesitate to ridicule Bart by calling him the Bartbarian. It's unfair to barbarians. If he had half the brains and sophistication of your average barbarian, he would would be dangerous.

    The "enemy" of the United States is now the entire world, with the possible exception of Britain, (and Israel has used us like a two dollar whore), yet Bart sees no danger... He gives "cluelessness" new meaning on a daily basis. Bart wants to remain the new "Evil Empire" and the main actor of the new "Axis of Evil".

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  30. Anonymous12:51 PM

    From milo at 12:36pm:

    Please explain the logistics of a force in Kurdistan. Logistics as in: fuel, food, and various other supplies.

    "Kurdistan" is basically northern Iraq, with the contiguous border with Turkey. Logistics would therefore be easier as we could tap pre-existing NATO support.

    Its trickier from a diplomatic standpoint as Turkey's sizeable Kurdish minority may well take the presence of a sizable and offensive US force in northern Turkey as a tacit recognition of an 'independent' Kurdistan. Needless to say, I doubt Ankara is any more willing to see a chunk of its territory joined with northern Iraq than the Iranians or Syrians would be.

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  31. Anonymous12:52 PM

    Mass murder of civilians has never won a war for terrorists

    But it's working for America?

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  32. Anonymous12:58 PM

    In the event of an American war with North Korea, two thirds of South Koreans under 30 would side now with North Korea against the United States. Think about that. How bad do you have to be to make people who were once your most vocal allies hate you that much and side wih a monster like Kim Jong Il?

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  33. There is an ANGER growing inside MY womb. Let's see what "birth pangs" REALLY are.

    Condi...? Where O WHERE is Condi today.....?

    I'll be back later when I calm down a bit.

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  34. Glenn said:

    But reality has become too overwhelming even for all but the most manipulative political figures to deny. As a result, there are very few people left willing to defend the invasion and occupation as anything other than a disaster....

    Please: Can we reserve the word "disaster" for those terrible things that happen that are out of our control (or that we at the very least didn't initiate even if we screwed up in not dealing with it once it began, like Katrina)? We need a new word -- a neologism or perhaps a "neoconologism" -- for the kind of colossal FUBAR that results from purely voluntary stoopidity planned and initiated by us (or our gummint). I propose that we call any such completely bone-headed and stubborn initiatives from now on ... a "Dubya".

    Cheers,

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  35. Anonymous1:01 PM

    Mass murder of civilians has never won a war for terrorists

    Mass murder of terrorists and innocent civillians has never stopped terrorism, either.

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  36. Anonymous1:05 PM

    incursion

    Oh, now it was just an "incursion," eh? A little side trip. A jaunt. A fling. A little nothing. Didn't mean a thing.

    Oh, Shooter242, you tease. You really wanted a dictatorship in Iraq all along. I feel like such a fool! I should have known when I caught you with . . . with those magazines!

    Sob!

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  37. "Hands up!" is a good way to start with the neocons. Then cuff them (about the ears and upside their heads) put them in chains and frog march them off to prison. Then we should execute them as traitors.

    Aside from the fact that, the radical loonies--yes, I do mean that term--on the "right" say the same thing about US, and the fact that THEY control the military-industrial complex, I couldn't agree more.

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  38. michael:

    How can you be such a defeatist, Glenn? Surely we are turning the corner in Iraq, the next six months will be the real test,...

    There is a neologism for that "six months" that has been become established and accepted. It's called a "friedman". One "friedman" equals six months. H/T to Atrios.

    Cheers,

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  39. Anonymous1:11 PM

    With regard to motive, the question really is who has gained the most from this disastrous adventure?

    Forget the common good, the public interest, eliminating so-called imminent threats or such ideals as spreading Democracy and Freedom.

    Who doesn't care about national debt or the US' international standing? Who have assured themselves personally of a richer future?

    Self-interest is still the bottom line.

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  40. Anonymous1:12 PM

    Let me take a wild guess. You, like the entire neocon movement, have no military experience.

    You got that right. Shooter is a crack shot with spit balls, however.


    Listening to pro-war supporters is like listening to a child talk about sex.

    If you are being hoam-skooled and spend more time in some fucking fundie strip mall church than you do in the real world, there is a good chance that kid knows more about sex than he or she should at his or her age.

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  41. shooter242 finally says something that makes sense:

    Apparently, the great experiment in Democracy is over and we need to return, to backing dictatorships. Interestingly, we happen to have a dictator in house, not being used to his best advantage.

    Strauss would be proud of him, I'm sure.

    Cheers,

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  42. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  43. HWSNBN loves his "straw men", he does:

    Glenn:

    For the past couple months, your posts have alternatively ridiculed the evil neocons for being clueless and then citing those same neocons as experts whenever they have doubts about the progress of the war.

    Which is it?


    Since when has Glenn put up Frum as an "expert" on anything? But Glenn did comment on why Frum's admissions are worthy of note (even as he noted, as others did, that Frum refuses to take the blam himself). HWSNBN needs to read what Glenn wrote before opening his yap. Of course, he won't. He's here to spout, not to actually liset to others and understand what they're saying....

    Cheers,

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  44. Anonymous1:23 PM

    Prunes is righteously angry:"Instructive?!" This is one of the most disgusting assertions I have read in a long, long time. Fuck you.



    Democracy is the natural outgrowth of increased economic liberty and genuine free trade. Instead of playing totalitarian states off of each other (you don't even know to what I'm referring, I'm sure) the proper and natural way to foment democracy is to increase business opportunities for the people. Power therefore is diffused away from the central position. History shows this.

    History also shows that you cannot remake the world by force. Look at the Marxists. They failed utterly, and many, many people died.

    And it's no fucking coincidence that many neocons (like that slimeball Horowitz) were originally revolutionary Marxists. They just picked up a new ideology for the surface gloss.


    I share your disgust -- when people casually endorse horrific levels of death and violence, calmly disagreeing as if discussing cricket over tea is not in order.

    In my view, invading Iraq and deposing Saddam was, in the abstract, morally defensible. But the foreign policy realists -- and other knowledgeable non-neocons -- prior thereto were insisting it could not be done without disastrous results at unacceptable cost. Those people have been proven to have been completely correct.

    You are also entirely accurate in your assessment of many of the neocons and their former Marxism. Horowitz has even admitted it was essentially like losing the religious belief that structured his world; but he didn’t lose it. He simply converted to another dialectical, messianic faith, in which the United States and “democracy” can overcome human nature and save the world.

    Faith-based social engineering schemes, foreign or domestic, seldom secure the intended results, and almost always engender unintended, bad ones.

    In any event, your revulsion with what shooter glibly tossed off is understandable, and your language hardly inappropriate.

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  45. If you are being hoam-skooled and spend more time in some fucking fundie strip mall church than you do in the real world, there is a good chance that kid knows more about sex than he or she should at his or her age.

    BOTH of my children were home skooled. They thought it was really KEWL! They're growed up now but we all still remember those trips to the mall.

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  46. Anonymous1:27 PM

    yankeependragon said...@12:51
    Logistics would therefore be easier as we could tap pre-existing NATO support.

    I suppose that is the same pre-existing support that the 4th Infantry Division used at the outset of Operation Iraqi Freedom... </snark>

    Another fine example of t-ball's diplomatic skills.

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  47. Anonymous1:31 PM

    shooter: I certainly haven't seen any other ideas from your side.

    Actually, moron, if you read my post you'd see I advocate pushing for increased trade with businessmen in totalitarian states, because I believe that democracy cannot exist without a certain minimum of free enterprise and further that free enterprise and democracy are mutually reinforcing.

    You are the one advocating a massive (record-setting, in fact!) socialist effort in an attempt to FORCE a particular government on a country with no infrastructure to support it.

    You believe that socialist measures (war) are necessary to start democracy.

    That is the neocon party line in a nutshell: free trade and democracy are not good enough on their own, they require tax-funded armies to make them work.

    That is why I cannot see neocons as any sort of real conservatives. They do not really, deep down, believe in democracy.

    ---
    aside to anonymous: actually, Larouche hates the neocons, they fit perfectly into his new world order theories.

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  48. Anonymous1:34 PM

    Hypatia...You are also entirely accurate in your assessment of many of the neocons and their former Marxism. Horowitz has even admitted it was essentially like losing the religious belief that structured his world; but he didn’t lose it. He simply converted to another dialectical, messianic faith, in which the United States and “democracy” can overcome human nature and save the world.

    Hypatia,

    I wonder at what point you will come to realize that Horowitz was never interested in anything other than making himself a buck. Just like that clown Savage. Those on the left, genuine revolutionary Marxists, realized this about him years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous1:34 PM

    Amazing the degree of - gulp! dare I say it!- bleeding heart liberal our "conservative" friends become when doing so dovetails so nicely with whatever hare-brained scheme Dear Leader enacts under the guise of "makin' 'Merica safer." We must intervene to save those poor, helpless Iraqis from the mean meanie Saddam!

    Forget that we and the Iraqi people are much worse off than when we started; you'd think those poor Iraqis were so poor that they couldn't even afford their own bootstraps by which to pull themselves up!

    Perhaps the proper analogy is that cynical, heartless (excuse me while I type with one hand; the other is busy clutching my string of pearls) case in which one attempts to save a drowning person. When the "victim" behaves in a manner that endangers the rescuer (chokes him/her in a panic, prevents him/her from swimming, etc.), it's taken as a given that the rescuer separate him/herself from the drowning person, it being understood that losing the "victim" is preferable to ending up with two people drowned.

    How selfless and heroic our Shooter is! Pity he drowned...

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous1:40 PM

    aside to anonymous: actually, Larouche hates the neocons, they fit perfectly into his new world order theories.

    LaRouche is a self-serving demagogue and lunatic. Neocons are self-serving demagogues and lunatics. Horowitz is a self-serving demagogue and lunatic. They may hate one another or love one another. They will use each other, or whoever, to acheive their lunatic goals, and change their politics and theories and biographies at the drop of hat, depending on which side has the better funding opportunities and grants to offer.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous1:43 PM

    I agree whole-heartedly, dictators don't really mean to harm us and will gladly keep all those unruly subjects imprisioned or dead with little or no cost to us. It's a win-win. Promoting Democracy just isn't worth the effort.

    When we see you making the effort we'll chip in and buy you your body armor, nnless you have just joined the ranks of the geo-political realists. I guess you are just being snarky because that's all you've got.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous1:44 PM

    I wonder at what point you will come to realize that Horowitz was never interested in anything other than making himself a buck.

    David Horowitz is a red diaper baby raised in the Marxist faith. His Marxist credentials from the 60s -- including his intellectual output from that period -- are too well-established for a serious person to doubt.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous1:46 PM

    David Frum's mother, Barbara Frum, was a Canadian national treasure - Smart, caring, empathetic, pragmatic, and one hell of a broadcaster.

    I never met her, but her son's political views were always at odds with her own, well known positions, which in the U.S. political climate would put her in the (you guessed it) 'far left Michael Moore extremist brigade'.

    I suspect she'd be dumbfounded that her son had grown into such a Chickenhawk -- condescending to the unwashed masses about who should be threatened and attacked next.

    But for today, I will be happy in the knowledge that ANYONE at the AEI has admitted that Bush's war is an abject failure.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous1:47 PM

    David Horowitz is a red diaper baby raised in the Marxist faith. His Marxist credentials from the 60s -- including his intellectual output from that period -- are too well-established for a serious person to doubt.

    Conned.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous1:50 PM

    Hypatia,

    I realize that you are still personally invested in any conversion from the "left" to the "right" no matter how opportunistic, facile and false, just because it suits your own beliefs. Serious-minded, indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Hypatia sez:

    David Horowitz is a red diaper baby raised in the Marxist faith....

    If so, hardly reason to consider him somehow or another more a Marxist or a real true Marxist. Rather the opposite. The most genuine adherents of a belief or philosophy aren't the ones that were "raised that way" (and in Horowitz's case, even having abjured that faith later), but rather those that, as mature and (assumedly) rational people, considered the options and adopted those beliefs. Really. In the case of the people "raised that way", they may keep to their initial beliefs out of inertia, lack of exposure, or any number of other reasons outside of rational choice. Keep that in mind, and don't make such a suggestion again, Hypatia.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  57. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Promoting Democracy just isn't worth the effort.

    Last time I checked, the Army was well equipped to blow up buildings and shoot people. How that manages to "Promote Democracy" remains to be seen. But from where I'm sitting, it does a piss-poor job.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous1:53 PM

    LOL. I can't think of any dictators offhand that willingly gave up power for a free vote. How about you?

    See "Gorbachev, Mikhail."

    ReplyDelete
  60. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous1:55 PM

    World War III is on, baby, yeah!

    Al-Qaeda Calls for Holy War Against Israel

    Just in time, really--now we have to go after Al-Qaeda too! What was it that Bill Kristol said the other day...

    And indeed, this is a great opportunity. I think our weakness, unfortunately, invited this aggression, but this aggression is a great opportunity to begin resuming the offensive against the terrorist groups. Israel is fighting four of our five enemies in the Middle East, in a sense. Iran, Syria, sponsors of terror; Hezbollah and Hamas. Al Qaeda doesn’t seem to be involved. We have to take care of them in Iraq. This is an opportunity to begin to reverse the unfortunate direction of the last six to nine months and get the terrorists and the jihadists back on the defensive.

    Good news, Bill, al-Qaeda was listening--it's five out of five now, baby! Yeah, it's time for the US to get mired in another long, unpopular, expensive, and unwinnable war against the unwitting civilian populace of a formerly peaceful Arab sovereign nation... err, I mean, the cowardly terrorists invariably hiding amidst the civilians! We'll be re-spreading Democracy in Lebanon!

    ReplyDelete
  62. Hypatia:

    Faith-based social engineering schemes, foreign or domestic, seldom secure the intended results, and almost always engender unintended, bad ones.

    And then we have the religion of Objectivism.... ;-)

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous1:57 PM

    Shooter242:

    No one expects a dictator to willingly give up power, of course; democracy must be fought for by those in a society who wish it for themselves. King George did not willingly cut America loose as a British colony...we fucking well threw him off.

    Short a violent spasm of internal violence--a revolution, if you will--democracy within a state will arrive only through political evolution internally, as the dictatorship fails of its own decrepitude. When Castro dies we will possibly see a seismic change in the Cuban political situation. (Of course, had we befriended Castro to begin with, we might have been able to exert some influence over him with regard to how he governed. Or perhaps not, but he would not necessarily have turned to the Soviets for foreign aid. Certainly, no one can say post-Cuban Missle Crisis Castro has posed any sort of threat to us...except for those who do not wish to see American hegemony in this hemisphere "threatened" by countries which display alternative political or economic systems than that demanded by our corporate owners.)

    And, of course, you "win" an argument no one made: you claim "dictators don't really mean to harm us" when the issue is whether Hussein meant to harm us. So far, no evidence supports the contention either that he desired or intended to harm us or that he had the capacity to do so. That's why our invasion of Iraq was illegal: it was an act of aggressive war against a non-threatening nation.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous1:57 PM

    I realize that you are still personally invested in any conversion from the "left" to the "right" no matter how opportunistic, facile and false, just because it suits your own beliefs. Serious-minded, indeed.

    Given that I’ve never been a leftist of any sort, and have never experienced a political conversion from it to something else, that is just an odd accusation to fling at me. My political posture has been the same virtually my entire adult life.

    David Horowitz published Free World Colossus in 1965. The tome is a Marxist screed in which the United States is, in all instances, the villain during the Cold War up to that point. Just take a look at the first review at Amazon if you doubt his work from that period was pleasing to his far left confreres.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous2:06 PM

    Hypatia,

    I knew an actual "red diaper" baby. Growing up as he did had no effect on him. He was always a capitalist, and one of the worst. Kids tend to rebel against their parents. It's a natural part of growing up. Horowitz was always a self-serving phony. If he lives long enough, he'll change his spots again if there is a buck to be made. If someone truly has the strength of their convictions, they will not give them up so easily.


    A contemporary of Horowitz's during his Ramparts days described his political transition from the left to the right in 1991,

    The phone rings and a guy in my office says, "It's David Horowitz." I haven't spoken to David Horowitz since the end of the '60s, when we both worked at Ramparts. Since then, with another former Ramparts editor, Peter Collier, this little creep has written a series of best-selling portraits of ruling class families--The Rockefellers, The Fords, The Kennedys--and boasted in print about voting for Ronald Reagan. Horowitz and Collier say they once believed fervently in left causes and institutions (from the Soviet Union to the Black Panther Party), and when they discovered these institutions to be corrupt and murderous they had to denounce them and come out for the other side.

    There are many flaws in this "logic." For openers, there aren't just two sides in this world (the fake left and the cruel right). And sure it's demoralizing to learn that the party that supposedly stands for equality is run by opportunists and actually stands for privilege. But that wouldn't lead a real radical to endorse the all-out pursuit of privilege. It should lead you to call for a movement that's serious about establishing equality. Horowitz and Collier were never radicals for a minute. Their goal was and is personal success. It's no coincidence that they were "left" in the '60s and "right" in the '80s.
    Fred Gardener





    Horowitz Confessed to Treason
    Horowitz has openly admitted he committed treason against the United States. He confessed in an article written by him and published in his own online zine, FrontPage, on October 3, 2000. In the article, titled "The Wen Ho Lee Cover-Up", Horowitz claimed that Wen Ho Lee was guilty of espionage, but the government decined to press charges because of the damage it would do to the inteligence services and William Clinton's presidential legacy. As anecdotal evidence to back-up this claim, he describes his own premeditated actions that violated the U.S. Espionage code in 1972, for which was never prosecuted.

    Ramparts, a magazine he was editor of, had acquired classified intelligence information from a former NSA operative and had published it, eventhough one of their own staffers, who had formerly served in Army Intelligence, had judged the information to be truthful, and refused to work on the story, and Horowitz knew this prior to the publication of the Ramparts story. Horowitz also sought the advice of a prominent Constitutional scholar before publishing it, who had explained to him the best methods of avoiding prosecution for this act of treason.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous2:06 PM

    Arne L. writes: And then we have the religion of Objectivism.... ;-)

    Well, yes. It is that, but saying so in some venues starts an interminable debate that is beyond tedious. If EWO takes offense, I won’t challenge him/her because it isn’t an argument I find to be worth my time.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous2:08 PM

    For the past couple months, your posts have alternatively ridiculed the evil neocons for being clueless and then citing those same neocons as experts whenever they have doubts about the progress of the war.

    Which is it?


    Which? Both.

    Even one who has cluelessly mouthed-off about his pugilistic accumen will become an expert in pain soon after his nose is broken.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous2:09 PM

    From shooter242 at 1:11pm:

    I certainly haven't seen any other ideas from your side. The dominant theme has been always been that we shouldn't be there. If that's the case, then Saddam and his boys would still be dictating away.

    Quite correct on all counts: we shouldn't have gone in, Hussein's ineffectual and disarmed regime would have endured a little longer, and a lot more people (Americans, Iraqis and others) would still be alive.

    You have a problem with any of that?

    Actually history says you're really wrong about that one. It's worked well for Castro and Chavez. But all kidding aside, 1945 changed the world totally, as did 1939, as did 2001, etc..

    Castro was an anti-authoritarian revolutionary on a small island. Chavez is the legally elected President of a sovereign nation.

    1945 saw the military defeat of Nazi Germany and militarized Japan; it also saw the ascension and entrenchment of Soviet Russia and a polarization of the world between 'east' and 'west'. The former may be seen as a positive, but the latter is a distinctly negative result.

    1939 and 2001 saw no large changes in the world, merely the outbreak of hostilities that promise a lot of moral and political ambiguity.

    And you actually think this is a good thing?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous2:10 PM

    From milo at 1:27pm:

    I suppose that is the same pre-existing support that the 4th Infantry Division used at the outset of Operation Iraqi Freedom...

    I didn't say it was a workable plan with the crew presently in charge.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous2:10 PM

    Given that I’ve never been a leftist of any sort, and have never experienced a political conversion from it to something else, that is just an odd accusation to fling at me. My political posture has been the same virtually my entire adult life.

    No kidding. Are you just being coy, or obtuse? You want to believe he was a radical leftist and renounced the left. Believe what you want. You've already demonstrated your ability to fall for anything. You are a con artist's dream. You are what they call in the trade, "a mark". All conservatives are exceedingly easy to con. Do you disagree?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous2:12 PM

    prunes said: "But it's working for America?"

    The difference is in the ordinance.

    For years I was under the impression that explosive devices, for example, operated on basically the same principle across the board: an explosive is ignited resulting in a rapid kinetic expansion of a pressure wave that distributes shrapnel, thermal energy, chemical compounds, and/or radioactive materials.

    It turns out, when IEDs, car bombs, pipe bombs, and other similar devices explode, they explode with TERRORISM!

    But when our ordinance explodes, it explodes with DEMOCRACY!

    Rob

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  72. Anonymous2:17 PM

    Hypatia,

    I respect that you are a creature of the right. You are far more sensible than most and have come a long way. Amu Goodman of Democracy Now! is a legitimate "red diaper" baby. Horowitz has never been anything other than a "yellow diaper" baby. We will just agree to disagree.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous2:17 PM

    Thanks so much shooter.

    Now I understand the principal reason why our attempts to bring democracy to Iraq have encountered such difficulty.

    Evidently, when solders kick down doors to generously offer their assistance to the occupants of an Iraqi domicile and are met with the Arabic equivalent of "fuck you," the soldiers are understandably mortified at the incivility of their reception.

    In the name of all that's holy, if you can't get people to have a reasonable discussion when there are guns being waved in their faces, what kind of sorry world are we living in?

    ReplyDelete
  74. Oh, and "shooter"?

    I only deleted for Glenn's sake and for the sake of his site.

    The sentiment stands.......on ROCK, I might add.


    For years I was under the impression that explosive devices, for example, operated on basically the same principle across the board: an explosive is ignited resulting in a rapid kinetic expansion of a pressure wave that distributes shrapnel, thermal energy, chemical compounds, and/or radioactive materials.

    That makes me go, hmmmmmm.......

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous2:20 PM

    Democracy is exploding all over the world!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Hypatia:

    [Arne]: And then we have the religion of Objectivism.... ;-)

    Well, yes. It is that, but saying so in some venues starts an interminable debate that is beyond tedious....


    You're right. Sorry, I was being naughty. I won't do it again ... well, until my anarchist urges compel me to toss another stink bomb out.... OCD, you know.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous2:23 PM

    And like it or not, Hypatia, if you are a supporter of Glenn Greenwald's positions, you are a member of the "angry left"!

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous2:25 PM

    Arne... You're right. Sorry, I was being naughty. I won't do it again ... well, until my anarchist urges compel me to toss another stink bomb out.... OCD, you know.

    Cheers,


    Radical leftist bomb thrower!

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous2:26 PM

    Anon: I am not now, and have not ever been (in adulthood), a conservative. I have virtually always been a Hayekian libertarian.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous2:31 PM

    "Hypatia" said...
    Anon: I am not now, and have not ever been (in adulthood), a conservative. I have virtually always been a Hayekian libertarian.


    You are just deluding yourself. I have it on good authority, (Ass of Spades, Patheticco, Jeff Goldstain, David Horroshits, LGF, Instaputz, etc... that you are a member of the angry, lunatic fringe, moonbat left. Why would they lie?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Shooter... So much for civility, it was nice while it lasted.

    That's what the Lebanese said.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous2:39 PM

    From bart at 12:41pm:

    We have achieved all of our pre war goals except for finishing the development of the de Baathified Iraqi military. Our war is essentially won. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his original plan of handing over territory to the Iraqis and gradually drawing down our troops as the Iraqis take over.

    The sad thing is I think you really believe this tripe. Maybe its a defense mechanism against unpalatable realities.

    The imposition of American-style democracy wasn't the original reason for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, nor was the reshaping of Iraq's culture and economy. The AUMF passed by Congress was in aid of ongoing weapons inspections, which was turning up nothing to even remotely suggest Hussein's regime was more than a badly frayed paper tiger held together with scotch tape and inertia. It was not an invitation for us to invade the country and leave it in ruins.

    Meanwhile, here's the real state of our troops:

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/8042.html#more-8042

    Read it a weep. These guys deserve a helluva lot better than what they're getting from you and yours, Bartholomew.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous2:41 PM

    Shooter... So much for civility, it was nice while it lasted.

    What kind of self-delusion is required to describe the state of politics in America as "civil" since 1994 and before, largely due to the extreme political right, of which you are a member. I wouldn't expect kindness or civility from anyone when this "ship of state" rights itself from the near capsizing incident it has hopefully survived. You'll be lucky if you aren't tossed overboard as dead weight.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous2:47 PM

    yankeependragon said...
    From bart at 12:41pm:

    We have achieved all of our pre war goals except for finishing the development of the de Baathified Iraqi military. Our war is essentially won. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his original plan of handing over territory to the Iraqis and gradually drawing down our troops as the Iraqis take over.

    The sad thing is I think you really believe this tripe. Maybe its a defense mechanism against unpalatable realities.


    That's an old play from the Nixon-Kissinger playbook. Declare victory, (peace with honor) and withdraw (get run out). Blame it on the "left" and the "liberal media" and start humping the "stabbed in the back" myth. What really hilarious is that Shooter and Bart are now quoting what Noam Chomsky said about Vietnam almost verbatim.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous2:52 PM

    thank you, Rob, for injecting some welcome dry wit into these proceedings @ 2:32.....especially since I'm still reeling from shooter's comment: "Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive and well worth the money and lives invested."

    Note the casualness and almost palpable distain in that statement....An invasion has become an "incursion" and, oh, BTW, the money and lives "invested" were worth it. If I ever had doubts about what mercenaries the neocons and their apologists were, they've been completely eradicated now. Shooter: HOW DARE YOU assume that Bushboy's fantasy about imposing democracy in the middle east was worth >2600 American lives and 1000s of Iraqi ones? Who the hell do you think you are? God? My fantasy is that a magical trapdoor had opened at the moment you typed those offending words, to transport you directly to picking up body parts in Iraq. Frankly, that may be the only way that your ilk ever "gets it." The audacity of our own arrogant axis of evil--Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld--to start an ill-conceived war, and then ignore our generals and do it on the cheap, certainly puts those 3 in the same league as any tinpot dictator on the planet. I dare say that history will NOT be kind to those yahoos.

    (whew, I'm done--just had to get that off my chest)

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous2:52 PM

    that you are a member of the angry, lunatic fringe, moonbat left. Why would they lie?

    The thing is, although "moonbat" is a term of recent vintage, accusations that I am a "liberal," (and it was meant as an accusation) are not new for me. Many of the neocon bloggers you cite are reasonably Ok with gays, gay marriage, abortion (many more so than I, as I remain squeamish on the subject), and an end to the drug war.

    As Glenn has written, however, those issues in the 90s defined who was really conservative, and they certainly did so in the 80s. When I began playing online in the early 90s, my views on those subjects (which were not much different than what they were in the Reagan 80s) were intolerable to most self-described conservatives.

    So, I’ve been read out of the ranks of the "right-thinking" before. I'm a dreaded "liberal," or so many insisted when the social issues were ascendant.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous2:56 PM

    I agree with Glenn that the defeat of the Specter bill is the most important political objective.

    Glenn and jao, what does Orin Kerr think? Does he share that view?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous2:57 PM

    But... but... the purple fingers!! I saw them!!

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous2:58 PM

    Liberal is good. Nobody is willing to admit to being a Republican or a conservative these days, not if they are running for office.

    A Deeper Look Into the Generic Ballot


    NPR has a new survey on the House out today that was conducted by Democrat Stan Greenberg and Republican Glenn Bolger. This poll is particularly interesting because of the district level detail it offers on the generic ballot question. The poll only focused on the fifty most competitive districts this year, forty of which are held by Republicans, and ten of which are held by Democrats. Here are some of the findings:
    In the fifty most competitive House districts this year, Democrats lead the generic ballot 48-41. While this is a smaller lead for Democrats than many national polls reveal, it is important to remember that this is primarily a survey of Republican-held.


    When candidates are named across the fifty districts, Democrats lead 49-43.


    Within the ten Democratic held districts, Democrats hold a whopping 60-29 advantage. This may only be a sample size of around 200, but these numbers show the tremendous strength of Democratic incumbents around the nation. We hold a 31-point generic ballot advantage in our ten most endangered seats? Amazing.


    Within the "top tier" Republican held seats (not sure how many districts this included), Democrats hold a sizable 52-42 advantage in the generic ballot. These are the sort of numbers that make a takeover very likely.


    Within the "bottom tier" of the competitive Republican held seats, Democrats still hold a generic advantage of 47-44. This is particularly amazing. This shows Democratic competitiveness across a wide swatch of districts.


    Bush is at 45% "strong disapprove" in these districts, and only 24% "strong approve." Remember--these are in districts that Republicans hold.


    Voters also indicate a high level of enthusiasm to vote, and Demcorats hold a significant edge in that category. However, I'll believe that when I see it, considering low turnout during the primary season so far.
    All of this makes it no wonder, as Jonathan pointed out earlier today, that Republicans are not calling themselves Republicans in commercials and on their websites (even Tom Reynolds, chair of the NRCC). All of these figures continue to make me cautiously optimistic for November. What would make me really optimistic would be more independent polls showing Democrats ahead in trial heats, as well as increased Democratic participation within primaries over the next month and a half. We have most of the pieces in place for a big wave of anywhere from 20-40 seats this fall, but there is always that buzzing sound in the back of my mind that Republican defenses from gerrymandering to GOTV to the media to Swiftboating to voter suppression to money to fear mongering could keep us reduced to modest gains of only five to eight seats.

    You can read the full poll results here (20 page PDF). The margin of error for the whole poll is 3.2, and for individual subsets it is larger.

    ReplyDelete
  90. bart: We have achieved all of our pre war goals except for finishing the development of the de Baathified Iraqi military.

    Ah, right on schedule. Bart, you have your subject and object reversed here. What's actually happened is that our goals have achieved us.

    As for what I make of Frum: having been clueless, he now claims to be repentant. One has one's doubts. You, on the other hand, are as clueless and unrepentant today as you ever have been. Not much to choose between the two of you, I would say.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous3:02 PM

    Keep clapping, bart. Tinkerbell is still deathly ill.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous3:14 PM

    Many of the neocon bloggers you cite are reasonably Ok with gays, gay marriage, abortion (many more so than I, as I remain squeamish on the subject), and an end to the drug war.

    The drug war is a failure. If people were actually dying, it would come to an end. You can't make war on social problems. Drug use is natural. Animals have been getting high for since they figured out how to. It's another hole to throw money into. Gay marriage is a non-issue for me, but I think the institution of marriage is anachronistic. If people want to marry their cars (some men spend more time with their cars then they do their wives) let them. What a person does in their bedroom is their business. Homosexuality occurs throughout nature. Don't fool with mother nature.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous3:23 PM

    the Iraqis are obviously not worth dying over

    Shooter, have you been paying attention? The Iraqis are the ones who really are dying, to the tune of at least 100 of them a day now! If you object to that, then you should really have been against the invasion and subsequent occupation!

    ...or do you only bomb the ones you love...

    ReplyDelete
  94. Shooter is of course failing to note the distinction between "supporting" dictatorships and refraining from bombing their subjects.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous3:31 PM

    From shooter242 at 3:16pm:

    Of course not, the Iraqis are obviously not worth dying over, much less spending money on.

    Wait, you mean all the money we've been flushing down Halliburton and the rest was supposed to be spent on the Iraqis? Guess your people in the White House never got the memo.

    While we're on the subject, please explain to me how the lives of the Iraqis are qualitatively any better today than they were on February, 2003?

    ReplyDelete
  96. shooter242 trots out the logical fallacies:

    OK I can go along with that. This particular dictator was worth gambling our welfare on. This was a dictator that we could support.

    Fallacy of bifurcation and begging the question, I'd say. I score it a "2".

    Any others?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous3:34 PM

    While our democracy, in the hands of the neocons, moves towards using force to export and expand democracy, those we deem as extremists are using persuasion to democratically assume power. That, in my opinion, is perhaps the epitome of irony. Worse yet, it is an indication that our foreign policy is an unmitigated failure that may well alter the world order for decades.

    Read an analysis that discusses the implications of the current U.S. foreign policy and how the neoconservatives have simply leaped over the politics of conflict...here:

    www.thoughttheater.com

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous3:36 PM

    Shooter242 said, "OK I can go along with that. This particular dictator was worth gambling our welfare on. This was a dictator that we could support."

    As you may have forgotten, he was a dictator we supported...for many years. We are in the habit of supporting dictators, a practice you have been promoting on this thread in a spirit, I presume, of sarcasm, yet it perfectly describes our general practice historically.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous3:36 PM

    Very true but we did have some advantages over the Iraqis,,,
    * An ocean between us and the King


    This didn't stop the King from sending a fleet and an Army.

    The Iraqis have an ocean between us and them. We sent a much bigger army. If only Washington had stealth bombers.


    * US was populated by those AGAINST state sponsored religion

    What school did you go to? You don't know much about history, do you? America was populated by many different kinds of people. Some very much wanted state sponsored religion. Why do you think the founders were so vocal against it?

    * Freer markets, more private property, rule of law based on a secular philosophy

    What does any of this have to do with democracy? Oh yeah! This is why Chavez is a "dictator".


    * room to expand, resources to use

    Iraq is awfully big and empty. You'd know that if you had ever been there. It's got lots of black gold under that wide open space.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Oh, bart, one more thing, although it goes without saying that a peace-loving left utilitarian like me shouldn't have to be the one to remind you: a true warrior is always, always careful with transitive verbs. Ask Sun Tzu, ask von Clausewitz, hell, ask Richard Perle if you don't believe me.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous3:39 PM

    Neocon Ralph Peters in The New York Post admits defeat, while playing a sickening, preposterous, dishonest blame game, in which we failed to kill enough people brutally enough:

    We helped make this mess. Instead of relentlessly destroying terrorists and insurgents, we tried to wage war gently to please the media. We always let the bad guys off the ropes - and apologized when they showed the press their rope burns. We passed up repeated chances to kill Moqtada al-Sadr and break his Mahdi Army militia. We did what was easiest in the short term, not what was essential for the long term.
    Now the only way to avoid an outright civil war is for our troops and the Iraqi army to break the sectarian militias in a head-on fight. The media will howl and we'll see a spike in American casualties. But it's our own fault. We put off going to the dentist until the tooth rotted. Now it's going to hurt…

    The alternative would be to let Iraq fail. And we need to ponder that possibility honestly. While it's far too early to give up, we need to "think the unthinkable." We can force the Iraqis to do many things, but we can't force them to succeed. If the jealousy, corruption and partisanship in the Iraqi government prevent the country's leaders from dealing forcefully with Iraq problems, we should no longer sacrifice our troops.
    Here's the brutal reality: If Iraq is destined to become yet another monument to Arab failure, there could be far worse outcomes than a bloody civil war - as long as our troops are out of it.


    Get that? It is an Arab failure. Not any infirmity in the neocon vision.

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  102. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Shooter:

    Taiwan.
    Argentina.
    Brazil.
    Iran in 1979.
    South Korea.
    Indonesia.
    South Africa.

    If you truly believe that dictatorships do not die away without being overthrown by force, you are simply not looking. I think George Bush's promotion of democracy in the Middle East was a great and sorely needed idea, and I'm not afraid to say it. But the good idea is utterly and completely negated - more than negated - by the massive and senseless waste of human life, and the *regression* of the entire Middle East as a direct result of his policies.

    It's like trying to give credit to Timothy McVeigh for accurately recognizing the problems with how modern techonology affects social hierarchical organization in the 21'st century. All you have on the ground is a pile of body parts and the thorough repudiation of your own cause.

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  103. Anonymous3:43 PM

    You want to know how to topple dictatorship around the world?

    Don't give any money or guns to thugs.

    That's it.

    It's the delusional idea that you can pay two devils to fight each other that has created the terrible conditions that Iraqis lived, and live, and died, under.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous3:50 PM

    Ralph Peters - Military Intelligence - Oxy-Moron.

    Cue dolschtosslegend.

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  105. Anonymous3:52 PM

    Slow down. Shooter is a conservative. Give him time to get his bearings. He can't dance that fast, certainly not backwards.

    ReplyDelete
  106. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  107. So glad to have your blog to come to and help figure out what is actually going on. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Does anyone else find our habit of tossing the phrase spreading democracy in the Middle East around as though we were speaking of peanut butter just a wee bit distressing?

    With a mindset like that, fellow peace lovers, we deserve the neocons. In fact, had they not already existed, we'd eventually have found the need to invent them.

    The sheer contempt for the validity of other cultures embodied in that phrase strikes me as peculiarly American -- although parallels to, say, Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan are noteworthy.

    Fortunately for us, only a minority of our fellow Americans appears at this point to actually believe in democracy. If recent polls are anything to go by, the majority of our fellow citizens would be quite happy living in a Protestant theocracy, as long as we called it a democracy.

    Sigh...and here I just finished chiding bart about his carelessness with transitive verbs.

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  109. Anonymous4:08 PM

    Shooter, Bart, The Neocons and The Underpants Gnomes

    The Underpants Gnomes are a community of underground gnomes who steal underpants.

    The Underpants Gnomes have a three-phase business plan, consisting of:

    Collect underpants
    ???
    Profit!


    Neoconned in a nutshell.

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  110. Anonymous4:10 PM

    Ahhh, quoting from the Frum is really pretty funny...

    This is especially true considering that the Frum is quoting extensively from clueless rags like the LA Times and the Washington Post...

    You kool-aid drinkers need to change your diet...

    Try a little Dr. Sowell for a change:
    Pacifists versus peace
    By Thomas Sowell
    Friday, July 21, 2006

    (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=pacifists_versus_peace&ns=ThomasSowell&dt=07/21/2006&page=full&comments=true)

    One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous4:10 PM

    Neognomes:

    Topple dictators

    ???

    Democracy!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous4:11 PM

    Bwahahahaha!


    No one has taken Thomas Sowell seriously for over 20 years. Sad, really. He was intelligent once.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous4:13 PM

    One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.

    So that's how idiots like Bush get into office. I knew it had to be something.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Why does David Frum hate America?

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Shooter: Iraq will forevermore be cited as reason to never, ever, go to war again. Dictatorships are the way to go.

    Ah, so that was the plan!

    The dismantling of civil liberties in this country has progressed at a faster than expected pace. We're right on course to become a dictatorship in, say, 2 1/2 years?

    ReplyDelete
  116. Jao said,

    Unfortunately, C-SPAN has not archived the hearing on its web site.

    C-SPAN now has the hearing posted.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous4:19 PM

    Well done, Armagednoutahere. Well done.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous4:20 PM

    Hypatia, it's worse than Peters even saying it's an Arab failure--he actually blames the media for the military being too gentle with the insurgents. What a crock! It was Rumsfeld's lack of planning for after the invasion that caused the mess, and it was Rumsfeld's policy--not the media's--that determined how much force was deployed. And Peters really tries to tell us that Rumsfeld was worried about pleasing the media? Oh give us a break!

    And shooter--your sarcasm is really quite tiring....you know, some of us so-called liberals are not actually mad at the Bushies for invading Iraq, but rather for doing such a piss-poor job of helping that country get back on its feet, and leaving its reconstruction to Bush's political cronies instead of listening to folks who actually UNDERSTOOD the middle east. Unfortunately, the mood of national suicide (post-Viet Nam, anyone?) may well pervade American politics in the coming years. So that when we really do need to take a strong stand against a despot, Americans will prevent any administration--Republican or Democratic--from taking the necessary steps. In short, BushCo wasted our military resources in Iraq......

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous4:23 PM

    Gandalf said...
    Shooter: Iraq will forevermore be cited as reason to never, ever, go to war again. Dictatorships are the way to go.

    Ah, so that was the plan!


    What will the next goal post in the ongoing game of mission creep be? When they abandon this as the latest in a long line of fraudulent and convenient casus belli, what will the next excuse be? Anyone care to venture a guess or have they run off the field yet?

    ReplyDelete
  120. Mmm...shooter has a bash at sarcasm, and we bite. Our fault, for missing the change in his game plan, or his for being so inept on unfamiliar territory?

    I'd say the jury is still out.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous4:29 PM

    Shooter,

    I think you're missing something. Spreading Democracy --actually working towards an abstract, selfless goal like that, rather than just pursuing your own self-interest -- is of course a noble idea, but since it tends to involve military force it's going to be difficult to convince other players on the world stage that this is actually what you're doing.

    In other words, the nation that is invading other nations to spread democracy (ACTUALLY DOING JUST THAT, in precisely the terms that you and Bush use) is going to incur a lot of suspicion, resentment and resistance. Opponents will surface and band together and fight you, with words and with military force, arguing that you're not doing what you say you're doing, but that you're instead practicing basic Roman Empire-style Imperialism (desire to own and control other nation-states) and giving it a new name.

    When that happens, the burden of proof is on the invaders. Even with the best of intentions (I'll repeat that: EVEN WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS), a nation that says "we're invading and killing you, but we're doing it for a really good selfless reason and not for the usual acquisitive reasons" is going to have a hard time convincing the world that this is, in fact, what they're doing.

    I don't actually believe that the United States' goal is what you say it is (I think we ARE invading for classic acquisitive reasons) but never mind. The point is, the referendum on our nation's history as "Democracy spreaders" is fairly damning. The rest of the world can see that we do it carelessly, indescriminately, inconsistently, and in a way that tends to look very much like we're less interested in "Democracy' than, say, "controlling the oil fields."

    We're not really in a position to claim the high road, is my point. Even if we really are doing what you suggest -- spreading Democracy, as an act of pure virture -- it sure doesn't look like it to the rest of the world, and they've got a very persuasive argument.

    I'm as patriotic and pro-American as anyone, but I don't think it serves our national interests to pretend that our goals are that pure or that transparent, and to build a foreign policy around the fantasy that those nations we invade will somehow understand that we're invading "for good reasons" rather than "bad reasons" -- especially as Halliburton and Lockheed and all the rest walk away with billions in profits and the people we're "helping" are mostly ending up dead.

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  122. Anonymous4:30 PM

    "Peace" movements don't bring peace but war.


    Poor Thomas Sowell. He's fallen so far. He can't even get a column printed in the mainstream press anymore. Wingnuttery will kill your career as a serious commentator.

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  123. Anonymous4:32 PM

    I've browsed through all of the posts here, and I feel something is missing from the discussion.

    Our adventure in Iraq happened because the ruling elite wanted a military base in the middle of the world's gas station. This is why Bush has no intention of pulling out, and why our military bases are meant to be permanent.

    This is also why I predict the US will never fully withdraw from Iraq, and will maintain a significant military presence in Iraq essentially indefinitely. We may draw down our forces, but they will not be completely withdrawn.

    Ever since the days of Jimmy Carter, access to the energy supplies of the Middle East has been an issue of national security. To first order, our military can accurately be described as a global energy protection force.

    Iraq was a target for two reasons - it has the second largest petroleum reserves in the world, behind Saudi Arabia, and it was ruled by a dictator who was hostile to the US. This is a combination the US simply will not allow, especially in light of the fact that world oil production is nearing its peak.

    Conflict over the remaining energy reserves of the planet will become increasingly intense into the forseeable future.

    This is the fundamental driving force behind tensions with Iran. They are sitting on a lot of oil, and even more natural gas, and the US wants to ensure access to these energy supplies.

    Without a compliant government in Tehran, there is no guarantee that Iran won't either use its energy reserves for itself, or sell them to rivals like Russia or China.

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  124. Anonymous4:32 PM

    Well said, jordan.

    ""we're invading and killing you, but we're doing it for a really good selfless reason and not for the usual acquisitive reasons""

    It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it . . . .

    Rob

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  125. Anonymous4:34 PM

    Let's interrupt the gnashing of teeth with some actual facts concerning Iraq. Brookings' website posts an invaluable list of stats called the Iraq Index. Here are some of the hilights from this month complied by:

    http://allthingsconservative.typepad.com/
    all_things_conservative/2006/07/
    iraq_index.html

    July 27, 2006

    Iraq Index

    The most recent Iraq Index from the Brookings Institute has some interesting information.

    The number of US troops killed in Iraq fell significantly in July to 34, down from 63 in June.

    Casualties (wounded) all dropped significantly in July to 266, down from 493 in June.

    Conversely, the number of Iraqi security forces killed rose in July to 165, an increase of 33 from the previous month.

    The upsurge in violence has hit civilians the hardest. In May, 2,669 were killed, but that rose to 3,149 in June. The index puts the number of civilians killed since the start of the war at between 20,000 and 37,000.

    One of the starkest statistics is the increase in the number of multiple fatality bombings. Clearly, the enemy is getting better at building bombs.

    The number of insurgents detained or killed has remained fairly steady since May of last year, ranging between 2,000 and 3,000 a month.

    Another positive trend has been that the number of attacks against Iraq's oil infrastructure have dropped significantly in the last year, to one attack in July. In December of 2004, there were 30.

    Coalition troops continue to improve their ability to disarm IEDs before they can be set off. In December of 2003, the percentage of IEDs found and disarmed was 40%, and in Feb. - May of this year, that number was 45%, and considering the significant increase in the number of attacks (twofold increase in 2005 alone) it's clear our troops our adapting well to the enemies tactics.

    There are now 71 Iraqi units [battalions] operating independently or with "Coalition Enablers."

    Actionable tips received from Iraqis has been over 4,000 since November of 2005.

    Iraq remains in fourth on the Index of Political Freedoms in the Middle East.

    The progress made in the electrical sector is impressive, and most often ignored by the mainstream media. Pre-war production was 3,958 megawatts, and daily electrical supply was 4-8 hours nationwide. In July of 2006, total production was 4,400 megawatts and daily supply was 11.8 hours.

    The unemployment rate in Iraq is still staggering, at 25-40%, but that is a decrease from the 50-60% rate of July 2003. No improvement has been seen since November of 2005.

    Iraq's GDP increased to $29.3 billion in 2005, and per capita GDP has grown by $249 since 2002.

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  126. Anonymous4:41 PM

    STFU Bart. The only gnashing of teeth goes on when you flap your gums, cherrypick stats and generally dissemble.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous4:43 PM

    Wow. Even given everything else shooter242 has posted here, this is a humdinger:

    Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive and well worth the money and lives invested.
    We now know there is a consensus between Mr. Frum and the left, that the only way to effectively contain Muslim Death Squads is to have a person in charge that has no qualms about killing his fellow Muslims.


    Translation: Sure, Iraq is a horrible failure. But at least we know now that Iraq wouldn't work.

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  128. bart: the Iraq Index

    Are you this wasn't recycled from a 1934 Politburo report on the achievements of the current five-year plan?

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous4:44 PM

    Incredible. All these months after the fall of Saddam and "Mission Accomplished," and somebody thinks that "only" 97 US troops killed in Iraq over the past 7 weeks is a significant achievement? Jesus.

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  130. Anonymous4:47 PM

    Shooter, it can't be easy, watching your "whisky democracy sexy" fantasy devolve into a ratfuck so vast that you can longer spin it.

    But it's time to move on from your "I know you are, what am I?" philosophy, so copiously expressed here. You're only delaying the inevitable. Take your medicine and admit it -- we got it right.

    We looked at what was possible and what was probable, and we decided that the benefits of deposing Hussein wouldn't be worth the cost. Some of us reached that decision by March 2003 or earlier; people who trusted in the competence and good faith of this administration took longer. But it's clear to all of us that there's next to no chance for a positive ROI here.

    That's how adults make decisions, Shooter. Sure, it's easier (and funner!) to ignore reality for your own fantasies of what is and could be -- but reality does have a way of intruding sooner or later, bringing a big fat "payment due" statement.

    It seems that a few of you neo-con dead-enders have finally learned this useful fact, so we can toss that on the benefits pile. Still nowhere close to justifying the costs, but it's something, I suppose.

    Poor shooter. Must be getting awfully lonely down there in your bunker.

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  131. Anonymous4:53 PM

    Well, if the US troops "redeploy" to Kurdistan (Northern Iraq), not only will they be in a more stable and American-friendly place, they will be either able to try to quell the incipient Turkey/Kurdistan dustup...or be in just the right place to get caught in the middle of that potential mess.


    All kinds of "fun" to be had here. Turkey is this close to moving into Northern Iraq in an attempt to quash Kurdish separatist cross-border shenanigans. Kinda like Israel vs Hezbollah in Lebanon.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Take your medicine and admit it -- we got it right.

    No kidding. I supported the war initially because I didn't think the POTUS would lie about Hussein possessing nuclear weapons (aaaahhahahahaha. :P)

    There's no shame in admitting you've made a mistake.

    The shame is in denying it in the face of conflicting facts.

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  133. Anonymous4:56 PM

    Bart says: "The number of US troops killed in Iraq fell significantly in July to 34, down from 63 in June."

    That certainly SHOULD be the case when your troops are taking a less aggressive stance and are spending more time inside the wire than outside the wire, which is what's been going on with the American military.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Lets see how some of shooter's comments look when taken out of context (shooter should be quite familiar with this game)!

    Apparently, the great experiment in Democracy is over and we need to return, to backing dictatorships. Interestingly, we happen to have a dictator in house, not being used to his best advantage.

    (A glimpse into the mind of your typical Nazi)

    Shooter, I never figured you for a Bush-Basher!

    If he isn't appropriate maybe some willing liberal is about that doesn't mind doing the dirty work of governing religious fundamentalist killers.

    (Note how the Aryan-American justifies the murder of civilians.. "Guilt by association": if you happen to live in Iraq, you are a terrorist)

    One doesn't even need to leave the country do that Shooter! Sounds like the relationship between you and our Dear Leader ("doing the dirty work of governing religious fundamentalist killers.").

    Regarding your slur about Liberals: if you want to know what party your news anchorman Rush Limbaugh most identifies with, try substituting the word "Jew" wherever he uses the word "Liberal".

    Then again, you were probably home-schooled and never took a World History course; so my previous statement probably meant nothing to you.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Touchy, touchy...

    Here is a famous scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail which is the perfect morality play for the cut and run crowd:

    CUT TO shot of cave. Bones littered around. The KNIGHTS get the wind up partially. A little dry ice, glowing green can be seen at the entrance. Suddenly we become aware of total silence. Any noises the KNIGHTS make sound very exaggerated. They unsheathe their swords.

    ARTHUR: Keep me covered.

    Stir among KNIGHTS.

    BEDEVERE: What with?

    ARTHUR: Just keep me covered.

    TIM: Too late.

    ARTHUR: What?

    TIM: There he is!

    They all turn,, and see a large white RABBIT lollop a few yards out of the cave. Accompanied by terrifying chord and jarring metallic monster noise.

    ARTHUR: Where?

    TIM: There.

    ARTHUR: Behind the rabbit?

    TIM: It is the rabbit.

    ARTHUR... You silly sod.

    TIM: What?

    ARTHUR: You got us all worked up.

    BEDEVERE: You cretin!

    TIM: That is not an ordinary rabbit ... 'tis the most foul cruel and bad-tempered thing you ever set eyes on.

    ROBIN: You tit. I soiled my armour I was so scared!

    TIM: That rabbit's got a vicious streak. It's a killer!

    GALAHAD: Oh, fuck off and get stuffed.

    TIM: He'll do you up a treat mate!

    GALAHAD: Oh yeah?

    ROBIN: You turd! Mangy scots git!

    TIM: Look. I'm warning you.

    ROBIN: What's he do? Nibble your bum?

    TIM: Well, It's got huge ... very sharp ... it can jump a... look at the bones.

    ARTHUR: Go on, Bors, chop its head off.

    BORS: Right. Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew coming up.

    TIM: Look!

    As TIM points they all spin round to see the RABBIT leap at BORS' throat with an appalling scream. From a distance of about twenty feet. There is a tin opening noise, a cry from BORS. A quick CLOSE-UP of a savage RABBIT biting through tin and BORS' head flies off. The RABBIT leaps back to the mouth of the cave and sits there looking in the KNIGHTS' direction and growling menacingly.

    ARTHUR: Je...sus Christ!

    TIM: I warned you!

    ROBIN: I done it again.

    TIM: Did I tell you? Did you listen to me? Oh no, no, you knew better didn't you? No, it's just an ordinary rabbit isn't it. The names you called me. Well, don't say I didn't tell you.

    ARTHUR: Oh, shut up.

    TIM: (quietly) It's always the same ... if I've said it once.

    ARTHUR: Charge!

    They all charge with swords drawn towards the RABBIT. A tremendous twenty second fight with Peckinpahish shots and borrowing heavily also on the Kung Fu and karate-type films ensues, in which some four KNIGHTS are comprehensively killed.

    ARTHUR: Run away! Run away!

    ALL KNIGHTS (taking up cry): Run away! Run away!


    Or is that: "Redeploy! Redeploy!"

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous5:01 PM

    It turns out, when IEDs, car bombs, pipe bombs, and other similar devices explode, they explode with TERRORISM!

    But when our ordinance explodes, it explodes with DEMOCRACY!

    Rob


    It's true! You can see it in the cartoon balloons.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous5:03 PM

    bucktheliberaldog said...

    Bart says: "The number of US troops killed in Iraq fell significantly in July to 34, down from 63 in June."

    That certainly SHOULD be the case when your troops are taking a less aggressive stance and are spending more time inside the wire than outside the wire, which is what's been going on with the American military.


    Really? And what do you base this slander on?

    Our combat arms soldiers are on patrol constantly, however, the Iraqis are taking control of more and more of the areas of operation.

    There are dozens of blogs run by military service members. Go check what they are doing.

    Start here: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/flf/

    Also, go to youtube.com, where you can find dozens of video and audio clips of what is going on in Iraq.

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  138. bart: Redeploy! Redeploy!

    Good advice, bart. Your foray into parable leaves a lot to be desired, unless you're trying to convince us you've finally gone completely round the bend.

    I prefer you as a clueless propagandist. Come back when your clipboard can tell us exactly how many communists there are in the State Department.

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  139. Anonymous5:09 PM

    You've got it wrong, bartman. "Redeploy" is what the Bushies have been busily ordering our Marines to do over and over and over again, to the point where the DoD is moving up Marine deployment dates so that those Marines whose re-enlistment date would come up BEFORE they redeployed (thereby allowing them to separate from the Corps) are now being redeployed earlier, thus sticking them in Iraq for another 7-month tour. Cute, huh?

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  140. Anonymous5:18 PM

    Our combat arms soldiers are on patrol constantly, however, the Iraqis are taking control of more and more of the areas of operation.

    Come on, Bart. What do think it MEANS when the big people say those words?

    The more the Iraqis do, the less we do. They take the alleys, we take the streets. It doesn't mean our boys are cowering—far from it. They're just not driving down those same roads any more. The Iraqis are doing that.

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  141. Anonymous5:23 PM

    Democrats should have no trouble unifying on this issue and advocating that Republicans should be turned out of office for stubbornly and destructively clinging to the prosecution of a war which cannot possibly achieve any good.

    They should have no trouble but they also have no motivation as their own leaders and the present Democrats in Congress have been totally in support of this Administration's actions.

    Sure, everyone would like to hope that an opposition party would come forth to run on a platform against all this insanity. But an opposition party has to oppose something. Hillary Clinton the most likely Democratic Presidential candidate is indistinguiishable from the policies of this Administration, except a little cosmetic lip service about issues about as important as the color of the rug in the Oval Office.

    Somehow I can't work up too much emotion about fat kids (eat less) yet the Clintons wanted to elevate issues like that into Danish cartoon status.

    Why? Simple. Diversion.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous5:28 PM

    For bucktheliberaldog, or anyone else interested, The Editors have a link to Raghda's blog. Her family is leaving Baghdad.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous5:36 PM

    baldie eagle said...

    Bart: Our combat arms soldiers are on patrol constantly, however, the Iraqis are taking control of more and more of the areas of operation.

    Come on, Bart. What do think it MEANS when the big people say those words?

    The more the Iraqis do, the less we do. They take the alleys, we take the streets. It doesn't mean our boys are cowering—far from it. They're just not driving down those same roads any more. The Iraqis are doing that.


    I agree and would add that there are fewer combat troops as well. We have drawn down over 10,000 troops since last winter and handed their bases over to the Iraqis.

    However, cowering is exactly what Buck the Surrender Dog was claiming our troops are doing.

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  144. Anonymous5:42 PM

    michael said...

    By the way, one of the worst military strategists of all time who actually commanded an army was Hitler.

    He abhorred the idea of retreat even when all common sense said that if you don't retreat, your army will be surrounded or otherwise lost...Anybody who knows anything at all about military strategy, knows that there is no shame in retreat if the circumstances call for it. "Live to fight another day" is far preferable to sacrificing your troops because of a foolish stubbornness.


    "Live to fight another day" is a good summary for the only valid purpose for retreat. It is simply a pause to regroup and attack again.

    Withdrawing from an entire theater of war never to return is surrender, not retreat or redeployment.

    The last time US forces were compelled by military necessity (as opposed to political lack of will) to retreat was at the Yalu River when a far superior Chinese force almost overran our overextended forces.

    We face no such military necessity anywhere in the world today. We have not had a unit of any size lose a battle since Vietnam.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous5:42 PM

    Bart--I am more "in the know" than you could possibly imagine.....I actually have family serving in Iraq.....and am damn proud of them even tho' I think their CiC is a putz.

    if YOU understood the situation, you would know that it is not slanderous to say "less aggressive." It simply means that in many cases the military feels that their presence on the streets can be an incitement, so they have been trying to let the Iraqi troops appear more, and American troops less, especially in certain areas where Americans are highly reviled. I am all too aware of how difficult and life-threatening it is to patrol certain areas of the Anbar province, and I am relieved that our casualties are dropping--for whatever reasons. And under no circumstances did I mean to infer that our troops cower.....I would NEVER say that......

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  146. Anonymous5:45 PM

    However, cowering is exactly what Buck the Surrender Dog was claiming our troops are doing.

    That's not how I read it. Either way you express it, our troops are not exposing themselves to fire and IEDs as much as they used to. Our bases have moved into the desert and are surrounded by huge sand berms.

    I don't think you need to call this tactic "cowering" to criticize it. In fact it may be a very good idea. But it's a sign that we can't keep it up any more, and that means somebody high in the chain needs to 'fess up. It's also a clear contradiction to any claim that we are more in control or that the insurgents are shooting fewer bullets.

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  147. jordan said (to shooter242):

    I think you're missing something. Spreading Democracy --actually working towards an abstract, selfless goal like that, rather than just pursuing your own self-interest -- is of course a noble idea, but since it tends to involve military force it's going to be difficult to convince other players on the world stage that this is actually what you're doing.

    "[T]ends to involve military force"?!?!? News to me....

    In other words, the nation that is invading other nations to spread democracy (ACTUALLY DOING JUST THAT, in precisely the terms that you and Bush use) is going to incur a lot of suspicion, resentment and resistance.

    Ummm, no. There's a good reason to be suspicious about "democracy" spread at the point of a gun: That is pretty much a violation of one of the core tenets of democracy.

    You want democracy spread, you might look at such as Jimmy Carter's Carter Center.

    FWIW, I'd note that Clinton's bombing managed to stop (some of) Milosevic's bad behaviour, but it took the Serbs themselves to get fed up enough and rise up and toss the bum out. Similar events pertained in much of Eastern Europe.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  148. buckytheliberaldog: under no circumstances did I mean to infer that our troops cower.....I would NEVER say that......

    Nor would I, but I don't mind being the one to point out that Wehrmacht troops in Stalingrad didn't cower either. With deep respect for all who are serving, members of your family and others, I still maintain that an army left for political reasons in the middle of a hostile country by ignorant jerks like those in our present administration is horribly vulnerable.

    As I've pointed out here before, an immobilized army is a defeated army. Valor doesn't enter into the equation, except to the extent that it comforts the valorous, and of course, those who love them, and honor their sacrifice. (For what it's worth, you may include me among them, much as I despise those who consider war a parlor game.)

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous5:59 PM

    bucktheliberaldog said...

    Bart--I am more "in the know" than you could possibly imagine.....I actually have family serving in Iraq.....and am damn proud of them even tho' I think their CiC is a putz.

    Good to know. I served in the Persian Gulf War and my brother just rotated out this week.

    if YOU understood the situation, you would know that it is not slanderous to say "less aggressive." It simply means that in many cases the military feels that their presence on the streets can be an incitement, so they have been trying to let the Iraqi troops appear more, and American troops less, especially in certain areas where Americans are highly reviled.

    This is mostly a function of the fact that we have been drawing down combat troops and replacing them with Iraqi units.

    And under no circumstances did I mean to infer that our troops cower.....I would NEVER say that......

    I'll assume that the "spending more time behind the wire" crack was a slip of the typewriter.

    What are your family member(s) doing over there?

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous6:01 PM

    arne langsetmo said: "FWIW, I'd note that Clinton's bombing managed to stop (some of) Milosevic's bad behaviour, but it took the Serbs themselves to get fed up enough and rise up and toss the bum out. Similar events pertained in much of Eastern Europe."

    Good point. Ceausescu (sp?) in Romania in 1989, too, was brought down by the Romanians themselves, and they have a parliamentary democracy in place now, I believe (though I may be wrong about their current governmental system).

    Rob

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous6:03 PM

    To Bart -

    Okay, let's try it this way:

    With citations and links, please illustrate how the lives of Iraqis is substantively better today than they were in February, 2003?

    Please explain, again with links and citations, exactly how our troops are supposed to accomplish anything given the state of their morale - as so vividly illustrated by the link I provided at 2:39pm - just now?

    Please explain why anyone here should take you seriously when all you offer is misstatements, irrelevant statistics, misrepresentations, and absolutely no serious arguments whatsoever?

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Good to know. I served in the Persian Gulf War and my brother just rotated out this week.


    Bart served in a mobile land war, not an occupation. He has no clue about insurgency and counter-insurgency. For the most part, neither does the Army. They learn these lessons every war "on the job" they are not trained for and promptly forget them. Your brother is as clueless as you are if nature and nurture have any say in how people turn out.

    ReplyDelete
  153. *SHEESH!*

    The guy has no shame!

    HWSNBN is up to his old tricks again:

    The most recent Iraq Index from the Brookings Institute has some interesting information.

    The number of US troops killed in Iraq fell significantly in July to 34, down from 63 in June.


    We went through this all three months ago. For the sordid details, see here. HWSNBN thinks that once he's gotten his a$$ handed to him, if he just waits long enough, he can trot out the same old dog turs again and call them crumpets. But Google is a wonderful thing for those of us getting long in the tooth and short on LTM. The record's there, and HWSNBN is doing the "same ol' same 'ol".

    Not to mention, he's citing casualty numbers for July being down ... on July 27th. It shouldn't take someone with a double digit IG long to figure out what's wrong with that "methodology" now....

    Like I said: NO SHAME. Which is why you may safely ignore everything that comes out of Harold "Bart" DePalma's mouth, including the words "and" and "the"....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous6:06 PM

    How seriously can you take someone who is in favor of legalized torture?

    Such a person is clearly not operating according to rational principles.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous6:09 PM

    From prunes at 6:06pm:

    Such a person is clearly not operating according to rational principles.

    Never said I took him seriously. I simply asked if he could tell us why we should.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Please explain why anyone here should take you seriously when all you offer is misstatements, irrelevant statistics, misrepresentations, and absolutely no serious arguments whatsoever?

    It's time to "bozo" Bart. It's a command line you can type in to individually block text based messages. Blog threads could use this function. It doesn't globally ban the user, just blocks the text from appearing on individual terminals of those who invoke the command.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Shooter242:

    The thing is, that if one admits dictatorship is required here and Democracy is a failure, one recognizes that there are forces on the world that can not be dealt with rationally, and/or humanely. One also negates every objection to George Bush being unilateral.


    Okay, I know you're a liar now. Or, do you prefer to be called merely "dishonest"?

    What's happening in Iraq is not a lack of dictatorship, nor a failure of democracy. It's a result of a bunch of idiots causing incredible amounts of damage without any understanding of how to prevent that damage, nor how to fix things once they were damaged.

    You know that, but try to insist it's not true, just so you can justify one of the most terrible crimes of the Bush administration.

    ReplyDelete
  158. HWSNBN quotes the Monty Python rabbit scene....

    Does anyone else wonder WTF he was trying to convey?

    "Did I tell you? Did you listen to me? Oh no, no, you knew better didn't you?" Maybe that's it. But it would be me and others here that said that, not HWSNBN.....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Bart--
    I have a son who is a Navy chaplain with the Marines and was in Ramadi (and yes, he got outside the wire every 2-3 days) and a grandson who is a Marine who's deploying in Sept. And I corresponded for quite a while with a friend (an Army colonel) in the Green Zone (who also moved around to other parts of Iraq).

    Writing the words "inside the wire" was not a typo or a slam, just a fact.....And inside can be deadly too....you're subject to random mortar attacks. They had a dead Marine and plenty of shot-up walls and structures to prove that point.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous6:22 PM

    The Major... I don't know how Howard Dean can live with himself when he undermines our troops in harms way every day saying we can't win the war on terror.

    Did Howard Dean say that? I don't thinks so. He may have said we can't win it the way George Bush is fighting it. It was George Bush who said we can't win the war on terror. It was one of those times his handlers let him talk to the press without his shock collar on and his ear piece in.

    Lauer:Do you really think we can win this war on terror in the next four years?

    President Bush: I have never said we can win it in four years.

    Lauer: So I’m just saying can we win it? Do you see that?

    President Bush: I don’t think you can win it.
    But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world — let's put it that way.


    That plan hasn't worked out to well. The poor guy is just an incompetent boob.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous6:26 PM

    Every day people lead normal happy lives but all we hear about is people dying because all the msm and the democrat politicians care about is tearing down George W. Bush.

    OK, now I'm SURE this guy is NOT for real--no friggin' way

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous6:30 PM

    None of this is about Iraq, foreign policy or national security, anyway. This about domestic politics and policy and always has been. That's all these clowns can do. The real fear is that the entire country will see once and for all that however bad or corrupt Democrats were, conservatives and Republicans are far worse. Nothing but incompetent con artists who just want to latch on to the power and suck the country dry.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous6:32 PM

    OK, now I'm SURE this guy is NOT for real--no friggin' way

    We don't question it anymore. We just humor him and play along. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous6:38 PM

    prunes

    There's no shame in admitting you've made a mistake.

    The shame is in denying it in the face of conflicting facts.


    Precisely my point.

    Honestly, I wish your faith in Bush, et al., had proved well-founded. I'm used to disagreeing with whoever's president, being disappointed or annoyed or disgusted, but this is the first time I've ever felt such a lack of basic trust in the man. I don't like it.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous6:38 PM

    Clinton calls on western leaders to broker Lebanese ceasefire

    Murray Brewster,
    Canadian Press

    The United States and other western countries should be pushing hard for a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah, along with the insertion of an international peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, former U.S. president Bill Clinton said Wednesday.

    The Islamic group Hezbollah's tactics are at the root of the latest bloody conflict in the region, but Clinton also questioned the length to which Israel has gone to defend itself. "It's important for us to get some kind of ceasefire now," Clinton said.

    "I think this idea of an international force needs to be fleshed out."


    This is the kind of article that really makes me want to vomit.

    Mr. Bagman is really saying that Israel is coming under a lot of criticism at home for its conduct on many different levels and now has assessed it cannot achieve its original objectives.

    So, lets send some genocide specialists in there to lend a hand...

    My question is if we wanted to send people who are into genocide, we could have sent the Germans.

    But Israel (understandably) didn't want that.

    Nobody gives a damn about Armenians so you probably don't all know this, but the Turks committed genocide and killed 50% of the Armenians and about that many of the Greeks in a separate campaign of terror.

    Then the Canadian paper reports as fact The Islamic group Hezbollah's tactics are at the root of the latest bloody conflict in the region. Obviously Clinton wouldn't issue a statement saying anything critical of Israel unless it carried that disclaimer first.

    Is it really so clear what the root of the latest bloody conflict is?

    I wonder if Sunny, a humanitarian, has read up on the history of the Turks and the Armenians. It's hard to actually get any info on that these days as there is a movement to "revise" history and eliminate all references to the Armenian massacres at the hands of the Turks from our history books. Wouldn't want to offend our NATO ally.

    But I got many petitions from Armenians in my email with documentation of what really happened and believe me, if you all studied up on that you would really be shocked and horrified.

    I'll find some links and post them on this blog now that the Turks, not surprisingly, are stepping up to the plate to enter that region.

    I predict disaster.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous6:43 PM

    After the USSR invaded Afghanistan, and the United States became peripherally involved in funding resistance movements there, Al Qaeda became a driving force for muslim fundamentalists around the middle east and south asia. The 1980s invasion set the table for 9/11 and everything that happened before and after... Did anyone bother to think about how that debacle ended? The USSR, the invader in Afghanistan, crumbled. Afghanistan was plunged into civil war until a fundamentalist regime exterted punishing influence over the populace. Al Qaeda funded numerous deadly jihadist attacks in Europe, Africa, and ultimately, America. So what do we do? We invade Iraq. We are about the leave that country in a civil war that will end in theocratic rule and sectarian violence. The United States economy and political structure may crumble as well. And only further violence will ensue. Will we ever learn from History, however simple the lessons be?

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous6:46 PM

    shargash said...
    "The Major said... [blah, blah, blah]"

    Major, there is a term for your condition. It is called "dissociation". It occurs when people's perceptions become uncoupled from reality.


    Shargash,

    I think the correct term is "parody" but I'm not a doctor or a professional satirist.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous6:49 PM

    The United States economy and political structure may crumble as well. And only further violence will ensue. Will we ever learn from History, however simple the lessons be?

    6:43 PM


    When you let fucking wingnuts drive the bus, Armageddon becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. That's a lesson soon to be forgotten alomng with the rest of them.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous6:55 PM

    Liddy Dole's face is a haven for bacteria. God knows what's lurking in her knickers. We are all in serious trouble.

    Frequent-flier data used to track movements of CIA operatives
    By John Crewdson



    WASHINGTON - The man and woman were pretending to be American business executives on international assignments, so they did what globe-trotting executives do. While traveling abroad they used their frequent-flier cards as often as possible to gain credits toward free flights.

    In fact, the two were covert operatives working for the CIA. Thanks to their diligent use of frequent-flier programs, Italian prosecutors have been able to reconstruct much of their itinerary during 2003, including trips to Brussels, Venice, London, Copenhagen, Vienna and Oslo.

    The Norway visit has assumed particular importance because it represents the first independent confirmation that CIA operatives were in that country at the same time an Oslo resident named Mullah Krekar was being warned that he was the target of a planned CIA abduction.

    Weeks before arriving in Norway, prosecutors say, the two operatives were among more than two dozen CIA personnel who participated in the February 2003 abduction of a radical Islamic preacher named Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, as he walked to a mosque in Milan.

    Aides to former CIA Director Porter Goss have used the word "horrified" to describe Goss' reaction to the sloppiness of the Milan operation, which Italian police were able to reconstruct through the CIA operatives' imprudent use of cell phones and other violations of basic CIA "tradecraft."

    Goss ordered a sweeping review of the agency's field operations before stepping down in May, aides said.

    It is unclear whether the CIA operatives intended to take advantage of the free flights garnered at government expense - CIA personnel on such assignments are permitted to fly expensive international business class_or whether they simply were attempting to bolster their covers as private-sector executives.

    The Abu Omar case has resulted in criminal kidnapping charges by an Italian court against 25 CIA operatives, a U.S. Air Force colonel and at least eight senior officials of the Italian intelligence service SISMI, who allegedly assisted the American effort to put Abu Omar in the Egyptian prison where he still languishes.

    A few weeks after Abu Omar was snatched off a Milan sidewalk and thrown into a waiting van, one of the alleged Milan kidnappers flew from New York to Oslo, according to frequent-flier records obtained by the Chicago Tribune.

    Just days before the CIA man's arrival, Krekar's Norwegian lawyer, Brynjar Meling, wrote a letter to the Norwegian authorities stating that his client's safety was in jeopardy and asking for police protection.

    "We had information from reliable intelligence sources," Meling said Friday. "We were told that it was a kidnapping plan. We were told that there were sent agents from the United States that were meant to bring Mullah Krekar to Guantanamo," the prison facility at the U.S. naval base in Cuba where hundreds of terrorism suspects are held.

    Asked why he believed he had been tipped off about the Americans' intentions, Meling replied that "a lot of people with integrity in the (Norwegian) government didn't like the situation. And therefore, there was quite a lot of leaks, and some of them came to my knowledge."

    The CIA man was followed by a 43-year-old female CIA operative who also is among the 26 Americans accused of kidnapping Abu Omar. The Tribune is not publishing the names of the pair because the CIA says they are still working under cover.

    According to the woman's frequent-flier records, she landed in Oslo on June 3, 2003, on a flight from Washington, returning to Washington via London on Aug. 13.

    At the time the CIA operators arrived in Oslo, news of Abu Omar's abrupt disappearance had not yet spread beyond his friends and family in Milan.

    But, Meling said, Krekar was aware that two Egyptians living in Sweden had been seized in December 2001 and flown to Cairo, where both claim to have been tortured.

    Meling asked for police protection, he said, because "Mullah Krekar was afraid that he could get the same destiny as those." Meling said he never learned whether the police added reinforcements to the officers who already had Krekar under surveillance.

    Krekar also began making public statements, not taken seriously at the time, that he believed he was the target of a planned CIA "rendition," the agency's term for abducting suspected terrorists abroad and transporting them to third countries such as Egypt.

    In the end, the CIA operatives flew home empty-handed. "There was too much noise," Meling said. "They couldn't do it without a lot of public mess and diplomatic trouble. Anyway, they wouldn't get any help from the Norwegian police."

    Although the Iraq-born Krekar has been living in Norway as a political refugee since the end of the 1991 Persian Gulf war, he became the focus of brief but intensive U.S. interest in early 2003.

    The interest stemmed from his role as the founder of an extremist Islamic group, Ansar al-Islam, with which Abu Omar also was affiliated and which, during the run-up to the allied invasion of Iraq, began recruiting militant Islamists from Europe and North Africa willing to join the battle against the Americans.

    Several members of Ansar al-Islam were subsequently arrested in Italy on charges of forging identity documents and helping recruit and transport "foreign fighters" to Iraq. A Milan judge later ruled that recruiting combatants by itself did not violate Italy's anti-terrorist laws.

    More important to the Bush administration, as the invasion of Iraq drew near, was finding a link between Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and the terrorist organization al-Qaida, which was responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.

    For a time it appeared that Ansar al-Islam might represent the missing link. A connection between Saddam, Ansar and al-Qaida was mentioned by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell when he addressed the United Nations on the eve of the Iraq war in February 2003.

    Powell provided no details, however, and while Krekar and Ansar al-Islam have publicly supported al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden, the organization is composed primarily of Kurdish militants who opposed Saddam and wanted him dead.

    "Saddam Hussein is my enemy. I have never met a member of al-Qaida," a puzzled Krekar, then 47, reportedly told the New York Times while watching Powell's speech from Oslo, where he still lives with his wife and four children while fighting a deportation order that would return him to northern Iraq.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous6:58 PM

    yankeependragon said...

    From bart at 12:41pm: We have achieved all of our pre war goals except for finishing the development of the de Baathified Iraqi military. Our war is essentially won. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his original plan of handing over territory to the Iraqis and gradually drawing down our troops as the Iraqis take over.

    The sad thing is I think you really believe this tripe. Maybe its a defense mechanism against unpalatable realities.


    Our prewar goals were to:

    Depose the Baathists police state.

    Replace the police state with a friendly democratic government (not a Jeffersonian democracy).

    Replace the Baathist Army with a diverse force.

    Remove all WMD and destroy all WMD program.

    Engage and defeat the terrorists being harbored in Iraq.

    We accomplished all of this.

    The AUMF passed by Congress was in aid of ongoing weapons inspections...

    That is Kerry's campaign revisionism lie to suck up to his party's surrender monkeys. What part of Authorization for the Use of Military Force did you not understand?

    Please explain, again with links and citations, exactly how our troops are supposed to accomplish anything given the state of their morale - as so vividly illustrated by the link I provided at 2:39pm - just now?

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/8042.html#more-8042


    Please.

    These are cherry picked bitches by a handful of soldiers with not a single contrary view.

    For a much broader and balanced perspective, scroll down on the left of this site and you will find literally dozens of military blogs covering the Iraq War operations.

    http://www.blackfive.net/

    As for these quoted soldiers in particular, I would be far more worried if they were not bitching and got quiet.

    Soldiers are always bitching. Their life in the field sucks and is dangerous. They have a right to bitch.

    I bitched when I was enlisted and listened to my guys bitch when I was an officer during the Persian Gulf War. One of my guys was so freaked before the war, he was sobbing. Another sergeant lost it when his Bradley was bracketed with artillery fire during our first engagement with the RG.

    Don't mistake bitching for an inability or or unwillingness of the men to do their job. Napoleon affectionately called his elite troops "grognards" or grumblers. As soon as you can show me a drop off in performance by our troops, I might take this latest cut and run hatchet job seriously.

    With citations and links, please illustrate how the lives of Iraqis is substantively better today than they were in February, 2003?

    OMG, are you serious?

    After the ceasefire, Saddam is estimated to have butchered 300,000 Iraqis, imprisoned thousands more and run torture chambers. Visit any website for human rights NGOs which have investigated these ongoing atrocities. The fact that the Baathists are still killing people makes this somewhat of a wash.

    Saddam abused the sanctions system to deny food and medicine to the Iraqi people and steal the money to bribe the UN, French, Germans and Russians. UNICEF claimed that sanctions killed 500,000 Iraqi children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions. This is undoubtedly a grotesque overstatement, but the starvation and lack of medical care was real. His bribed UN allies were using these deaths caused by Saddam to lift sanctions. Today, the economy is booming and food and medical care is plentiful.

    Before the liberation, Iraq was a one party police state which was compared with Stalin's. Democracy may not mean much to you, but the Iraqis have had three straight nation wide street parties when they came out to vote in numbers which we can only dream of here in the states. The press has exploded and is full of political debate. As I posted above, Iraq is considered to be the 4th freest state in the muslim world including Israel.

    More tellingly, Iraqis in every single poll do not want Saddam and his hell hole back again despite the mass murder perpetrated by his followers and the al Qaeda they allowed in.

    When Ann Coulter savaged the Donkeys for wanting Saddam back again, you are proof of that statement.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous7:03 PM

    The neocons' legacy shall be the ridicule of their sons' generation.

    And Gen. Butler, a true war hero, turns over once again in his grave.

    Scooter242 said: Actually the incursion into Iraq has been instructive and well worth the money and lives invested.

    Sure, since it's not his money, his ass, or his loved ones' lives, why wouldn't he think that. But then, he doesn't even have the balls to look Cindy Sheehan in the face. They are 'only' lives, after all, and he got a lesson. All it cost him was a lie, and his soul. What a deal.

    Instructive? That disgusts me. This time we will welcome the troops home, take care of them, and then spit in neocon chickenhawk faces like his for wasting these brave men on his panic and fear-filled fantasies.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous7:07 PM

    "Put another way, in exchange for the thousands of lives lost, hundreds of billions of dollars squandered..."

    Bless you for not using "blood and treasure," especially "treasure". A bunch of us discovered that we had all independently come to truly hate "treasure" as it now so frequently used, and each of us had found it to correlate directly with a right-wing warmongering mindset. You prove the rule.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous7:07 PM

    The pathetic coward The Major claims:

    George W. Bush NEVER said we can't win the war on terror.

    So let's see what bush did say then:

    President Bush: I have never said we can win it in four years.

    Lauer: So I’m just saying can we win it? Do you see that?

    President Bush: I don’t think you can win it.


    Major Brain Damage says

    "Don't bother me with facts."

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous7:08 PM

    zeroworker: I see you are a very smart, informed person. Did you read those articles about how we wouldn't even need any oil from abroad if we turned our attention to the states like Colorado?

    The issue seems to be less about securing oil from abroad for this country and more about keeping the worldwide price of oil at a level at which the oil industries and nations sitting on oil are happy.

    If we mined our own resources, the argument goes, the price of oil would plunge and that would create worldwide instability.

    Personally I think it would just create poorer oilmen. Boo hoo.

    I am just learning about these facts so speak with no authority. But I thought maybe some commenters here would already know about this whole issue and could post about it.

    Prunes and robert 1014: thanks for such good posts.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous7:11 PM

    Anonymous said...
    "Put another way, in exchange for the thousands of lives lost, hundreds of billions of dollars squandered..."

    Bless you for not using "blood and treasure," especially "treasure". A bunch of us discovered that we had all independently come to truly hate "treasure" as it now so frequently used, and each of us had found it to correlate directly with a right-wing warmongering mindset. You prove the rule.


    This is just silly. "Blood and treasure" or "thousands of lives lost, hundreds of billions of dollars squandered". I prefer the pirate version: Your ass or your booty.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous7:13 PM

    arne:

    Our casualties have been in a downward trend since we suffered 96 KIA in October 2005 as we wrapped up a half year offensive clearing the Euphretes River Valley. There was a short uptick in April and May this year when we rolled up Zarqawi and al Qaeda, then casualties came way down again.

    The Iraq Casualties site has the casualties broken down by day so you can compare 90% of July with 100% of previous months.

    http://icasualties.org/oif/

    I know you enjoy playing up casualties to give your cut and run cowardice some cover, but in reality this is the by far lowest casualty rate we have ever had in a war lasting more than a year.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous7:14 PM

    Replace the Baathist Army with a diverse force.

    Oh, it's diverse all right. Hats off!

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous7:15 PM

    President Bush Continues To Sell America To Foreign Interests

    "Serious students of history no doubt recognize Bush's actions as reminiscent of those of England's King George III, and serious students of the Scriptures no doubt recognize Bush's actions as reminiscent of those surrounding the Old Testament story of the Tower of Babel.

    Whether one approaches his or her love of independence from a scriptural or historical perspective, the conclusion is the same: George W. Bush has abandoned his commitment to the United States and has become the servant of internationalists! His actions favoring foreign interests speak so loudly that they muffle his words of loyalty to America. In fact, his words serve only to mock the great principles that he was entrusted to defend!

    How long will the America people allow this charade to go on?...."

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous7:20 PM

    Let me just sum this up, for all of you.

    BUH BLAM!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous7:24 PM

    melior said...

    Ann Coulter is a laughing stock, and so are you.

    Ann Coulter is a professional polemicist who makes her living button holing leftists as surrender monkeys and the like. Like any good propagandist, she is right about just enough of people like you to prove her point.

    You lost your right to prance your superiority dance about rape and torture, when the US was caught raping and torturing.

    On behalf of our armed forces whom you are comparing to Saddam's butchers, do you know what the letters F O stand for?

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous7:36 PM

    arne langsetmo said: "Harold "Bart" DePalma's"

    Any relation to Brian (DePalma)? Just curious.

    Rob

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous7:41 PM

    Interesting, but I would like to know DoD's evaluation of the reliability of the source

    Thursday, July 27th, 2006
    (BREAKING) Iraqi WMD, Possible Transfer To Syria

    Senator Rick Santorum on Sean Hannity today (5:00 PM EST) has announced a document ( ISGQ-2005-00022470 Title: “Information from a source about the transfer of weapons of mass destruction to Syria prior to the attack of the Coalition Forces on Iraq”) has been released by the “US Army Foreign Military Studies Office” that convoys consisting of 50 trucks carried an unknown cargo to Syria from Baghdad before the American invasion. The trucks were accompanied by Iraqi Intelligence. Upon arrivial at the Syria border, Syrian Inteligence took the trucks and emptied the cargo.

    Dear Respected Sir

    Warm salute… and then

    To review with regards and please and return the document to Mrs. Mona after the translation with thanks.

    Signature

    Abu Abdallah

    13/7

    To the Respected Responsible for the bureau of follow up and coordination.

    CA11 RD

    Subject: We have information about the location of the Weapons of Mass Destruction

    In the day of 10 Mouharam before the coalition forces started the war on Iraq, 50 trucks for land transportation entered Syria on an intermittent convoy. I met some of the drivers and they did not know what they carried in these trucks. These trucks were loaded from an unknown location in Baghdad and was brought to the drivers and the Iraqi Intelligence was with them. Each time they crossed a certain distance, the Iraqi Intelligence stopped them and asked them what are they carrying and their answer was we do not know. And when these trucks arrived to Syria in the area of Deir Al Zour the drivers were taken out of their trucks and the Syrian Intelligence ride instead. These trucks were entered into large warehouses and when these trucks were emptied it was given back to the Iraqi drivers. And they were given a reward worth of 200 dollars for the safety of arrival. One of the drivers mentioned to me that this was second time they carry these secrets loads and the first time was 1 Mouharam.

    I have a friend in Syria who works in a Syrian company as partner with a Syrian merchant. This person is an Iraqi ex-Consul in the Iraqi embassies and he resigned from the diplomatic circle and he has strong connection with the Iraqi Embassy in Syria and he knows all the Iraqi Intelligence and those knows that I work for the Iraqi opposition in Syria. I was visiting him daily during this period to find out the important news. When the trucks entered Syria I went to him and told him that Iraqi Weapons entered Syria so he said to me who told you that and I said to him I knew from my sources, and he told me to keep this confidential and not tell anyone because it indeed entered.

    Singature

    7/13

    Under translation and print

    Moustafa Al Khaliye.

    D.O.D only, 7/13

    -- Oak Leaf

    Posted at 5:19 pm

    http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=14455

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous7:42 PM

    jao: I repeat, what does Orin Kerr think of the consitutional implications about the Specter bill?

    Orin Kerr is considered one of the foremost legal experts on matters to do with electronic surveillance.

    I think it's reasonable to ask whether he is in support of Specter's bill or against it, don't you?

    If I could tell what Orin Kerr ever thought about anything other than addressing issues which have nothing to do with anything, I'd read his posts myself.

    What you call polemic I would call rational and patriotic. Apparently you don't think American laws should be concerned with either.

    Pick your poison, jao: what's right or wrong for this country at a time of Constitutional Crisis or
    discussing irrelevant arcane details about proposed legislations.

    As for speculating what I did or did not write on any other blog, I would point out to you that I personally think you would be much more comfortable on the Ace of Spades blog or LGF with the rest of your fascist cronies who use arguments ad hominem instead of addressing the issue commenters raise and when you are asked to defend your position you resort to smear tactics.

    I'll complain to Glenn about your tactics before you start posting people's phone numbers on this blog which is a level to which I think you could sink within about two seconds.

    I much prefer bart and shooter's posts to yours. As far as I am concerned, you are an enemy of the Constitution which makes you a traitor to America.

    You and Hypatia share some views. I have no argument with Hypatia's posts and often enjoy them. She's a lady and you are the Ace of Spades in disguise.

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  184. Anonymous7:42 PM

    Desert Son said...

    Any relation to Brian (DePalma)? Just curious.

    I understand he is a distant relative. I don't know the man.

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  185. Anonymous7:47 PM

    Shooter242:
    I suppose you would like Saddam back in power?

    Squealer, from Animal Farm:
    I suppose you would like Farmer Jones back on the farm?

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  186. Anonymous7:58 PM

    oh Bart... anytime you quote Ann Coulter, I know you have really gone over to the Dark Side.....

    Of course the Iraqis don't want Saddam back....that doesn't mean they're a bunch of happy campers, does it? They really really don't want us there either.

    Today, the economy is booming and food and medical care is plentiful.

    Of course, you no doubt think that the American economy is just great too despite the fact that the disparaties in income between the rich and poor is greater than it's ever been, that the number of uninsured continue to climb, and that the deficit is at an all-time high. Yeah, I can see where you might think the Iraqi economy is going great guns!

    And referring to any of our soldiers as "cherry picked bitches"--gee, Bart, tsk, tsk, even soldiers are entitled to their own opinion....that's what makes them Americans and not robots with guns.

    As for the list of "our" accomplishments:

    Our prewar goals were to:

    Depose the Baathists police state.

    well, yeah, I'll give you that.

    Replace the police state with a friendly democratic government (not a Jeffersonian democracy).
    Well, I'm not sure about the final vote being in on the term "friendly," Bart.

    Replace the Baathist Army with a diverse force. Diverse? Wellllll, not exactly. They're still mostly Shiite, if I'm not mistaken.

    Remove all WMD and destroy all WMD program.
    Bart, how can you possibly write that with a straight face? What WMDs? Oh, you mean the ones they found that were made BEFORE the Gulf war? The ones that were probably so old they would be relatively ineffective? The ones that someone in the DoD said were "not the ones we were looking for when we said Saddam had WMDs."

    Engage and defeat the terrorists being harbored in Iraq.
    Oh, you mean the terrorists that took advantage of the free-for-all when we invaded Iraq and then we proceeded to let all hell break loose? You're right, the foreign insurgents may be about played out, but the Sunnis and Shiites, well, they seem to be doing a great job of just duking it out among themselves.

    We accomplished all of this.
    Yep, we sure did.

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  187. Anonymous8:00 PM

    Bart said:

    Today, the economy is booming and food and medical care is plentiful.


    Which country are you talking about now?

    It felt like I was reading a talking points memo on the GOP website.

    I'm glad that you feel that the Iraq phase of the GWOT is such a success. How stupid of me to have any doubts.

    So, you play the role of Bagdahd Bob and Shooter scolds those that disagreed with this insane invasion for wanting dictatorships around the world.

    Maybe you're right. The economy is booming and health care is plentiful. It'll only take a trillion dollars of our tax dollars over the next decade to see the vision of an "accecptable" democracy in Iraq.

    Meanwhile, 48 something million Americans can not make the same claim about plentiful healthcare. And, our economy will be under the most crushing debt load in the history of mankind.

    While you're stabbing the American flagpole into the chest of Iraq and declaring victory, I for one feel that it is a very hollow victory. The terrorist repercussions from our arrogance will expand and get more acute in the foreseeable future.

    So, even if (and this is just an exercise in you're type of thinking) the stats and success stories that you cite are one hundred percent correct would you not agree we've paid too high a price for this 'victory'?

    What did we lose? (Here's a short segment of a long list)

    1. Our economic security.
    2. Our ability to claim the moral high ground (invading on false pretenses)
    3. All international support
    4. Our own moral compass (institutionalized torture)
    5. The security of our troops under the Geneva Conventions (we claim they are quaint and don't apply to anyone we deem)

    (anyone is welcome to add to the list)

    So, we've accomplished our goals in Iraq according to you. Now since we can't "cut and run", and we have to "stay the course" (both excellent examples of simple propaganda generated for general consumption)what will the ultimate cost be?

    Seems as if our constitution may be at stake in this war too. And, it's losing.

    Sleep well tonight Bart.

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  188. HWSNBN once again blithely prevaricates:

    arne:

    Our casualties have been in a downward trend since we suffered 96 KIA in October 2005 as we wrapped up a half year offensive clearing the Euphretes River Valley. There was a short uptick in April and May this year when we rolled up Zarqawi and al Qaeda, then casualties came way down again.


    I caught HWSNBN doing this sh*te here. It's getting old. As other people here noted, HWSNBN carefully "cherry-picks" his numbers (wouldn't do now to use the last three complete month's numbers, compared to the prior quarter year's; that kind of fact might detract a little from his "truthiness"...)

    Then there's the dishonest "July" figures, posted presciently on July 27th!!!. HWSNBN tosses in a tardy "90%", but the SOL has expired, I'm afraid to say.

    Such honesty. Dunno if I can stand any more forthrightness from the likes of HASNBN.

    Cheers,

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  189. Anonymous8:05 PM

    You lost your right to prance your superiority dance about rape and torture, when the US was caught raping and torturing.

    Bart: On behalf of our armed forces whom you are comparing to Saddam's butchers, do you know what the letters F O stand for?

    Here's the difference: under Saddam, the guys that did those things took orders from higher up, while our guys who did such things, eh, also took their orders from higher up.

    The issue is not with those at the bottom of the chain of command who were told to do the dirty work.

    The issue is with the president and vice president, who encouraged such behavior by providing cover using the "Article II - I can do anything cuz I'm the President" and similarly contrived legal "reasoning."

    As far as disrespect for life goes, I think W and Cheney are closer to Saddam than any civilized nation would want their leaders to be.

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  190. Anonymous8:06 PM

    Senator Rick Santorum on Sean Hannity today....

    Even Bart questions these sources.

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  191. HWSNBN states the truth in an awkward way:

    Today, the economy is booming ...

    Well, yes, that is the major component of the economy. But I wouldn't put it quite like that. Maybe, "the economy is exploding." Or "everything's going sky-high!"

    ... and food and medical care is plentiful.

    Demand is up.

    Cheers,

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  192. Anonymous8:22 PM

    From Bart at 6:58pm:

    Our prewar goals were to:

    Show me a single pre-invasion story or speech which lays out those particular objectives.

    That is Kerry's campaign revisionism lie

    Show me in the text of the AUMF where the laundry list of nation destruction-building is.

    Oh, I fully understand what the initials stand for; I also understand the actual employment of military force was meant to compel Hussein to comply with the weapons inspections, something he was already doing!

    These are cherry picked bitches by a handful of soldiers with not a single contrary view.

    What contrary views do you cite as counter-examples? I see none, save some meaningless pontificating about your own glory days.

    OMG, are you serious?

    My question was in what way are Iraqis now substantively better off than they were before? Tellingly, you didn't answer the question.

    In fact, it seems the best you can come up with is some abstract claim that "democracy" (if three elections alone constitute such a lofty goal) and a 'free press' (neglecting to quantify this statement with genuine examples) make Iraq 'freer'.

    How about the continued shoddy-to-nonexistent state of basic services? The fact infant mortality is actually far, far lower than prior to the invasion? The continued rise in unemployment and the exodus of trained professionals and academics from the country?

    No answer for any of that?
    I thought not.

    More tellingly, Iraqis in every single poll do not want Saddam and his hell hole back again despite the mass murder perpetrated by his followers and the al Qaeda they allowed in.

    When Ann Coulter savaged the Donkeys for wanting Saddam back again, you are proof of that statement.

    I'm not blind to the brutality that Hussein ruled with, nor am I ignorant of the suffering he put Iraq through. So I'd like you to point out exactly where in my original comment I stated I wanted Hussein back in power!

    Pointing out the country is still in ruins after three years of US occupation and the investment of billions of dollars is not the same thing as 'wanting Hussein back in power', save perhaps in the ever-shrinking bubble you and your idol live within.

    Next time you respond, answer the damned questions directly or just admit you can't. Otherwise you're just embarrassing yourself and wasting our time.

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  193. bucktheliberaldog said:

    [HWSNBN]: Remove all WMD and destroy all WMD program.

    Bart, how can you possibly write that with a straight face? What WMDs? Oh, you mean the ones they found that were made BEFORE the Gulf war?

    He can say it with a straight face in the very same thread where he simultaneously posts claims that Saddam's "WoMD" all got trucked off to Syria. Talent you've gotta admire. He's auditioning for Snow's job, after Snow inevitably aspirates on the vomit he's spewing.

    Cheers,

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  194. Anonymous8:25 PM

    The Major writes: And you all KNOW THAT THINGS are getting better in Iraq but you just aren't willing to admit it because you have no respect for our government. If you listen to Rush you'd know how much better thigs are going then we hear about back hear.

    And with that I am ready to announce my verdict: he is very good, and doesn't usually go quite far enough so that one could really be sure in saying it, but this is parody.

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  195. Anonymous8:28 PM

    Hypatia says:

    "but this is parody."

    Oh, how that statement can be reapplied to others...

    ReplyDelete
  196. Anonymous8:36 PM

    JaO writes: Gosh, I sure hope this doesn't mean [EWO] doesn't like me.

    Well, I wish she'd leave me out of it when she (so frequently) denounces you. In my strong opinion, you are one of the most astute commenters at this blog.

    I mean, it's close, as between you and Bart. But I stand by that. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  197. Anonymous8:54 PM

    I thought you'd accept defeat for lying and being a sock puppet.
    Oh well, another Deb Frisch here.

    ReplyDelete
  198. Anonymous8:57 PM

    Subject: We have information about the location of the Weapons of Mass Destruction

    This is absolutely conclusive.

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  199. Anonymous9:00 PM

    ROFLMAO! Wow! bart cites the rabbit scene from The Holy Grail as some kind of metaphorical dig on the so-called "cut-n-runners"???

    In the future just leave the lateral thinking to us adults, okay?

    BTW, lest we forget the scene that immediately follows; the oh-so-apropos "Holy Hand Grenade" scene.

    How many more brave, gallant and "moral" "knights" will fall in this struggle before the righteous REMF's call in a "holy" tactical nukular bunker-buster? OR, oh what the hay, a full-on conventional nuclear strike?

    Yeah, perfect analogy, bart. As with just about everything else here you're perfectly wrong.

    Pretty good for the odd laugh, though.

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