The Bush adminstration suffered an enormous defeat today, as a federal district court denied its motion to dismiss the lawsuit brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation against AT&T, which alleges that the administration's NSA warrantless eavesdropping program (and AT&T's cooperation with it) is illegal. Most significantly, the district court, which is in the Northern District of California, rejected the administration's claim that allowing the litigation to proceed would jeopardize the disclosure of "state secrets," a doctrine which the administration has repeatedly exploited to prevent judicial review of its conduct. Traditionally, courts almost always defer to the executive's invocation of that claim and accept the President's claim that national security requires dismissal of the case. But this time, the court rejected that claim.
The court's decision is 72 pages long and is online here (.pdf). Underscoring how courts virtually always accept the government's claim of state secrets, the court began by discussing the long line of cases in which, in almost every instance, courts deferred to the Government's assertion that state secrets would be jeopardized by ongoing litigation. Indeed, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- the appellate court which is above this district court -- previously directed that "utmost deference" be given to the government's invocation of this claim. Dec. at p. 14.
Here, the Bush administration argued that vital state secrets would be disclosed even by virtue of AT&T's mere confirmation or denial of the existence of the warrantless eavesdropping program, as well as if they confirmed or denied that it has cooperated with that program. Plaintiffs' position was that the administration itself has already confirmed the existence of the program; that a former AT&T employee has already confirmed that AT&T has fully cooperated in allowing the administration full eavesdropping access without warrants; and that press accounts independently describe details of the program. As a result, argued plaintiff, the court can adjudicate its claims without the disclosure of any "state secrets."
The court first ruled that -- in order to determine whether the existence of the program was a "state secret" -- it would rely upon only the Bush administration's public statements, and not any statements from the press or former AT&T employees. Based solely on those statements from the administration itself, the court explained (Dec. at 34):
"the very subject matter of this action is hardly a secret. As described above, public disclosures by the government and AT&T indicate that A&T is assisting the government to implement some kind of surveillance program" . . . [and] "significant amounts of information about the government's monitoring of communication content and AT&T's intelligence relationship with the government are arleady non-classified on in the public record."
Based on this reasoning, the court rejected the Bush administration's argument that litigating the claims against AT&T would jeopardize state secrets, since the administration itself has already confirmed the existence of the NSA warrantless eavesdropping program.
Most critical of all was the court's ultimate reasoning, which, relying on the Supreme Court's ruling in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, served as yet another reminder that the Bush administration's claims of unlimited presidential power have no place in our system of government (Dec. at 36):
"Even the state secrets privilege has its limit. While the court recognizes and respects the executive's constitutional duty to protect the nation from threats, the court also takes seriously its constitutional duty to adjudicate the disputes that come before it. See Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 US 507, 536 (2004) (plurality opinion) ("Whatever power the United States Constitution envisions for the Executive in its exchanges with other nations or with enemy organizations in times of conflict, it most assuredly envisions a role for all three branches when individual liberties are at stake").
To defer to a blanket assertion of secrecy here would be to abdiate that duty, particularly because the very subject matter of this litigation has been so publicly aired. The compromise between liberty and security remains a difficult one. But dismissing this case at the outset would sacrifice liberty for no apparent enhancement of security."
The court not only denied the Bush administration's motion to dismiss, but also AT&T's motion to dismiss on the grounds that, among other things, the plaintiffs lack standing to bring the lawsuit. The court thus ordered that some discovery -- i.e., the exchange of information between the parties -- proceed.
There are a few caveats to note here. First, the court certified the decision for immediate appeal, which means the decision can and will be directly challenged in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and, if the Bush administration loses again, could very likely end up in the Supreme Court. Second, the dreaded, pending Specter legislation contains a provision for all of the cases challenging the NSA program (including this one) to be consolidated (transferred) to the secret FISA court, which would remove jurisdiction altogether from this court or the Ninth Circuit. Third, a similar motion is pending in the Eastern District of Michigan in the case brought by the ACLU against the administration itself. The judge there has already indicated that she will not blindly defer to the administration, and this decision can only enhance the likelihood that she, too, will deny the administration's motion.
Those caveats to the side, the importance of this victory cannot be overstated. The Bush administration has been exploiting what was a rarely used doctrine to, in essence, immunize its conduct from judicial review of any kind. Because courts have been willing to assume in the past that the doctrine was invoked in good faith by the President, they have almost always deferred to it. But this court scrutinized the claim quite thoroughly, and expressed real skepticism over the administration's assertions that national security prevents any court from determining if the law is being violated as a result of warrantless eavesdropping.
Most importantly of all, the court re-affirmed one of the most basic and important principles of our system of government. That even with regard to national security, there is no such thing as a President who acts alone without interference from the other branches of government. Instead, quoting Hamdi: "Whatever power the United States Constitution envisions for the Executive in its exchanges with other nations or with enemy organizations in times of conflict, it most assuredly envisions a role for all three branches when individual liberties are at stake." That is the very opposite of the Yoo theory of executive power which has been inflicted on this country for the last five years.
UPDATE: The district court judge distinguished all of the other prior cases which accepted the government's claim of state secrets by reasoning as follows (Dec. at 33):
"[N]o case dismissed because its 'very subject matter' was a state secret involved ongoing, widespread violations of individual constitutional rights, as plaintiffs allege here. Indeed, most cases in which the 'very subject matter' was a state secret involved classified details about either a highly technical invention or a covert espionage relationship."
Because the claims in lawsuits such as this involve the alleged violations of constitutional rights on the part of countless Americans, the justification for refusing to allow the claim to proceed on the "state secrets" ground certainly does seem weaker. If accepted, the doctrine would not merely prevent adjudication of a single individual's specific claim, but would immunize the President from being held accountable for his conduct with regard to widespread constitutional violations and illegal behavior affecting countless Americans. Courts certainly should be more skeptical of assertions by the government in those circumstances, and this court seems to suggest exactly that.
UPDATE II: John Amato has obtained documents relevant to the controversy arising out of President Bush's refusal to provide classification clearances necessary for the DoJ investigation into whether its lawyers acted ethically with regard to the NSA program (as a result of his personal refusal to authorize such clearances, the investigation never occurred).
According to John, the documents he posted show that -- in rather stark contrast to the President's refusal to issue clearances to enable the DoJ lawyers to be investigated -- the clearances necessary to enable the criminal investigation into The New York Times and the leak itself were given almost immediately. The common theme among that behavior and the administration's exploitation of the "state secrets" doctrine is that the administration uses concepts of national security as a game, as a selective weapon, to promote its political objectives. That is likely the primary reason why courts have decided that far more skepticism is required when it comes to this administration's assertions than was warranted for any prior administration.
Great news! I'll look forward to reading about this in more depth!
ReplyDeleteWow...this is what we've all been waiting for...some good *statutory interpretation* of the Constitutionality of these issues.
ReplyDeleteLet's hope it proceeds to the SC and we get a final resolution on their interpretation of these programs and OUR Constitutional Rights.
:-D
Glenn: Actually, the cite is to Hamdi, not Hamdan.
ReplyDeleteIndeed very good news.
ReplyDeleteHow long will this take to get through the ninth circut and into the supreme court?
Maybe it would be best to get this case in front of the same court that decided Hamdan as soon as possible.
Although, I think justice would really be served to actually have this trial go forward.
Anyway, good news.
****enter trolls to tell us how this is not what it appears to be****
Another caveat: There's a hearing set in the multi-district litigation panel as to whether all these cases will be consolidated into one court.
ReplyDeleteGreat news indeed. It's nice to see some common sense prevailing in the courts. Their "State Secrets" gig is just to cover their criminal asses and it's great to see them getting called on their bushshit.
ReplyDeletejust started reading the decision and for a nonelawyer it even makes sense.
ReplyDeletewe just have to make sure we keep specter from passing that bill sigh
br3n
Actually, the most important part of the opinion, IMO, is this:
ReplyDelete"But no case dismissed because its "very subject matter" was a state secret involved ongoing, widespread violations of individual constitutional rights, as plaintiffs allege here." P33.
This vast, new (and proper) gloss on the state secrets doctrine.
Michael: the only problem screaming "treason" or "trator" or "Activist Judge" is that the judge was appointed by the 1st President Bush.
ReplyDeleteYou know, the days when our country believed in reason and science rather than superstitious bullshit and war.
ReplyDeleteuh, weren't we in a trumped up war at that point too?
Most critical of all was the court's ultimate reasoning, which, relying on the Supreme Court's recent ruling in Hamdi, served as yet another reminder that the Bush administration's claims of unlimited presidential power have no place in our system of government
ReplyDeleteThe decision cited by the court (Hamdi) was decided in 2004. It was the case of the American held in the South Carolina brig. It is not the recent Hamdan decision.
politically lost said...
ReplyDeleteIndeed very good news.
How long will this take to get through the ninth circut and into the supreme court?
Maybe it would be best to get this case in front of the same court that decided Hamdan as soon as possible.
The legal experts can correct me if I am mistaken, but if you are refferring to the case in which CJ Roberts recused himself for stating an opinion prior to his seating, that will not be necessary here. I would be interested to hear opinions but I an not optimistic about Roberts vote.
The decision cited by the court (Hamdi) was decided in 2004. It was the case of the American held in the South Carolina brig. It is not the recent Hamdan decision.
ReplyDeleteThat was still the old Rehnquist court with SDO'C. We have the Roberts court and Alito now. Opinions from the legal experts here if it heads to the current SCOTUS?
That was still the old Rehnquist court with SDO'C. We have the Roberts court and Alito now. Opinions from the legal experts here if it heads to the current SCOTUS?
ReplyDeleteOn the important part of the decision - that the administration lacked legal authority to hold a U.S. citizen without providing him an opportunity to judicially challenge his detention -- Hamdi was really an 8-1 decision, with only Thomas dissenting. (Technically, Scalia dissented, in an opinion joined by Stevens, but only because they thought the majority didn't go far enough in finding the administration's conduct unconstitutional).
Hamdi is not in jeopary, and it really was the first time the Supreme Court imposed restrictions (albeit modest ones) on the President's power post 9/11.
The common theme is that the administration uses concepts of national security as a game, as a selective weapon, to promote its political objectives.
ReplyDeleteSo "state secrets" is just another political bridge to burn so that the next guy won't be able to use it. Odd that in claiming ultimate power for the Executive, they are, in the long run, going to damage it severely.
A red letter day, which also happens to mark the start of the final 2½ years of this wicked administration. Here's hoping successful resistance to their lawlessness continues to expand.
ReplyDeleteGreat news indeed, Glenn. The beauty of this is that it seems the most difficult obstacle has been hurtled--the jurisdictional question.
ReplyDeleteProvided discovery can proceed as it should, and the 9th Circuit (and perhaps the Supreme Court) affirms the district court's jurisdictional ruling, the law is so solidly on the plaintiff's side that there should be no question how any court would rule.
Still, I don't doubt that the government and AT&T will challenge jurisdiction all the way to the Supreme Court, if possible.
the major:
ReplyDeleteGreat now we have even more activist judge's taking an activist role in undermining our safety in a time of war.
Yea.. President Bush I was a known liberal notorious for promoting activist judges to the US Bench.
Well after the way you people have been on our case for the last 50 years you have no right to call us facists. We're not facists you are and if you think anybody who's been beaten on for 50 years will just take it up the *ss foreverf then you need to get a brain because someday we'll be on top again and when we are we might not be as nice as you'd like.
Someday you'll be on top again? Who has the Presidency, majority control of both houses of Congress and more or less control of US federal courts?
You US conservatives really do have a persecution complex.
Glenn, I just read the documents posted at John Amato's site. In addition to the news that those Justice Dept units investigating the NYT quickly received security clearances, the documents contain a letter from AAG William Moschella to Sen. Specter.
ReplyDeleteThe letter confirms what AG Gonzales revealed the other day:
As the Attorney General advised you over lunch, decisions to provide access to classified information about the TSP [Terrorist Surveillence Program] for non-operational purposes are made by the President of the United States. With regard to TSP, the President decided that protecting the secrecy and security of the program requires that a strict limit be placed on the number of persons granted access to information about the program for non-operational reasons. Every additional security clearance that is granted for the TSP increases the risk that national security may be compromised.
This is excellent news!
ReplyDeleteGlenn are you aware there's also a case in the Federal District Court in Chicago?
From the ACLU press release
Author Studs Terkel, Other Prominent Chicagoans Join in Challenge to AT&T Sharing of Telephone Records with the National Security Agency (5/22/2006)
and a more recent one
Government Cannot Shirk Accountability for Illegal Surveillance by Claiming State Secrets, ACLU Tells Chicago Judge (7/13/2006)
A serious (non-rhetorical) question from a non-lawyer: How can congress (i.e. Specter) strip jurisdiction of a case involving alleged violation of constitutional rights?
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, there are no efforts to bar the Supreme Court from adjudicating such questions. The Specter legislation would require the transfer of all pending cases to the FISA court, with appeal to the US Supreme Court (should it decide to accept it).
In reality, the Specter legislation would kill such litigation, because it expressly provides that the court cannot compel disclosure of "national security information" without the approval of the AG or DNI. I think there are some potential constitutional problems with that provision, but it is in the bill.
the administration uses concepts of national security as a game, as a selective weapon, to promote its political objectives.
ReplyDeleteOf course they do.
Its just nice to see some good hard documentation showing it.
My guess to why they are working so hard to hide all of this - money and power.
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt that much of what comes out (as it will and should, in the future)will reveal that they are making huge bucks off this intel and using it against opponents and critics.
Right now, what little faith I have left is in the Judicial branch.
Maybe someone should tell them that they will be/are tapped, just as we?
(Well that is just crazy! Why would the Executive want to spy on them?)
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the excellent (and fast) post on a hot and important topic!
Now on to the speculation (if you care to partake):
1. Will the Cheney Admin appeal this to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals?
Got to remember that the Cheney Admin and its wingnut minions have a particular animosity (perhaps outright hatred) for the 9th.
The 9th is that Left Coast bastion of traitors...ahem...liberals who don't want God in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Probably also want those Gays to be able to get married, and ruin the American way of life.
IMHO, odds are that the Cheney Admin doesn't want to go to the 9th.
2. Does the Cheney Admin try to get this "consolidated" to somewhere like a "safe" Court of Appeals such as the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit?
IMHO, this is a particularly likely tactic.
3. Does the Cheney Admin take this direct to the Supreme Court?
IMHO, this is not likely after getting burned on Hamdan.
But perhaps the Cheney Admin will still take this approach, betting on the SC's recent favorable State Secrets rulings, and of course, the Cheney Admin's stacking of the decks with Roberts and Alito.
4. While the Cheney Admin is mulling their appeals approach, I'm sure they'll be pushing Arlen Specter to get that damn cover-up...ahem...FISA re-write legislation passed before the November elections.
Gotta get this done before those Dems win control of 1 or both houses this fall and starting investigations, indicting folks, and maybe impeaching folks!
The floor is now yours!
Glenn... Hamdi was really an 8-1 decision, with only Thomas dissenting.... Hamdi is not in jeopary, and it really was the first time the Supreme Court imposed restrictions (albeit modest ones) on the President's power post 9/11.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Glenn. No one likes to see their own powers eroded. Judges are no different, not since Marbury. That might tend to "activate" them.
Re: The Major...
I'm stumped because there really are people who hold those views in earnest.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteHow certain is Spector's bill to pass? Is there any sign of serious resistance from the Dems on this? If it passes I really fear we've lost our opportunity to thwart Big Brother through institutional means until after the election cycle -- if we elect Dems into power and they reveal they have the guts to get serious about governning.
This isn't a victory for liberals or conservatives. It's a victory for the United States.
ReplyDeleteThis ruling is very important. If it makes its way to the Supreme Court with all the current members intact, I think that only Alito and Thomas are certain votes for the administration. Roberts is probable for the administration. Everyone else, and maybe Roberts, will vote to uphold the ruling which was just issued. After all this is a motion to dismiss, before any discovery.
ReplyDeleteThis ruling highlights the importance of defeating Specter's bill.
Douchebag1 said...
ReplyDeleteThis isn't a victory for liberals or conservatives. It's a victory for the United States.
Considering that Glenn has one of the few blogs where some on the right and some on the left have actually begun to find common ground for the first time in a long while, you are absolutely correct. Well put, Mr. Douchbag1.
I like the name. You wear it proudly.
damn those activist judges!!!!!
ReplyDeleteFinally some sanity from the courts on reigning in the BusHitler administration's power grab.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to being a brilliant legal mind, Glenn is quite the talented lovemaker, or so I have heard. He also is a leading constitutional scholar and was quoted by an actual US senator! And I am a completely impartial and unsolicited observer.
The Major said...
ReplyDelete"And how dare you call me paranoid."
LOL!
We're all speechless with the self-revealing truth of your statement!
The Major said...
ReplyDeleteI meant to say Iran. Iran is an islamofacist hellhole where you'd all really fit in really well so maybe you should pack up and get lost.
We have to stay here and fight the home grown Taliban. They are everywhere. Even in our Congress, on the High Court, and in the White House.
Major,
ReplyDeleteDon't say "leader." Say "Fuhrer." It has a much better ring to it.
Actually, anonomous, that's "führer". But don't worry. the major is too (or as he puts it, "to") dumb to know any better...
ReplyDeleteMajor, sorry but someone's gotta tell you this.
ReplyDeleteIn your profile you state:
"The rank of major is the first company grade officer's rank. He's the guy who commands a company into battle, but he still has to get down and dirty with the grunts he's leading, unlike colonels and such."
The rank of major (O-4) is the first field grade rank, the first company grade rank is second lieutenant (O-1), and he commands a platoon, a company is commanded by a captain (O-3). Hopefully this will help you adjust your personal fantasy of being a herioc military leader so that the next time you're playing with your toy army you'll be getting it right.
Better still, go to this link:
http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp
find your local recruiter, and show us just how heroic you are by enlisting in a real army. I look forward to reading your comments from Iraq. Or Iran. Or North Korea. Or wherever.
Until then, why don't you keep your stupid baby troll ass out of here so that the adults can have a discussion, okay?
Major,
ReplyDeleteYou favor the Ten Commandments, do you, as an "objective morality?" Wow. So what is the punishment for taking the Lord's name in vain? It happens to be death. (Leviticus 24:16) And what is the punishment for working on the Sabbath? Wait for it- it's death! (Exodus 21:17) How about for adultery? Death again! (Leviticus 20:10) How about for cursing your father or mother? I think you can guess...death! (Exodus 31:15)
So you favor a series of laws that are in favor of executing people for trivial offenses. That sounds awfully Islamofascist to me. And what's the ultimate kicker? That neither you nor the Islamists have the slightest evidence to back up your beliefs. None whatsoever. Really, your views are an embarassment to yourself and to whatever "schols" you matriculated from. Be an adult and put the tooth fairy away.
garryowen re Major
ReplyDeleteOUCH! that is some painful snark. But good.
Oof, that was mean.
ReplyDeletePoor major. I guess he's crying himself to sleep now. Or maybe enlisting. Good God, I hope not.
ReplyDelete(Which is not to say that Israel wasn't provoked into action, even though their response has lacked any sense of proportion and is bordering awfully closely on criminality.)
Pious platitudes excusing your open anti-semitism ring hollow.
Bibblesnæð said...
ReplyDeleteOof, that was mean.
Poor major. I guess he's crying himself to sleep now. Or maybe enlisting. Good God, I hope not.
12:06 AM
I'm cruel but fair. And the standards for enlistment are so low these days that he actually has a chance of getting in. Scary, isn't it?
I love the discovery part - Sure hope it proceeds apace. Figure the odds though.
ReplyDeletePlease, for god's sake. It has been obvious for some time that The Major is a PARODY TROLL. It is astonishing that anyone still engages with him. He is not a stupid right winger-- he is someone playing a role-- for whatever reason.
ReplyDeletecongrats on cracking and holding the Technorati top 100. I knew wingnuts would be good for something.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeletePlease, for god's sake. It has been obvious for some time that The Major is a PARODY TROLL. It is astonishing that anyone still engages with him. He is not a stupid right winger-- he is someone playing a role-- for whatever reason. 12:48 AM
Damn, let myself get punked. Okay, I promise not to feed any kind of trolls anymore.
Allow me a feeble attempt at humor, but I've got it figured out. It dawned on me while reading the comments thread following Glenn's "bio" post. The "parody troll" is really.... Glenn himself - check his IP address. 8')
ReplyDeletebamage said
ReplyDeleteThe "parody troll" is really.... Glenn himself - check his IP address. 8')
How do you look at someones' IP addy here?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWow. Impressive douchebaggery, anon.
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell was that?
ReplyDeleteThis is great news Glenn! There is some hope that we are coming out of the madness at last.
I just read your book. Good show. Most of it is information that those of us that have been paying attention already knew, but it is nice to have it all in a clear and concise collection. I have already bought several copies for gifts. I wish I could afford enough copies to just walk down the street and pass them out. An administration's illegal activity could not be much more obvious. I appreciated your comparison with the Nixon timeline. It gave me good reason not to despair and to believe that indeed in the end Bush et al. will get theirs. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteThat wasn't a post, I'm afraid, that was an attack which overwrote earlier comments. Kinda like burning a rival's printing press, I suspect.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, you need some heavy duty techies now to look over your security. If that takes more money, maybe you could pass the hat. I'm in.
It was just a copy and paste job run through some "script kiddies" little proggy to insert "agboy" after every "f" in a post and a few other bizarre warps. Any 10 year old could do it 10 years ago. No big thing. It's what's called a scroll troll and a lame one at that. It would be deleted by Glenn if he was around and will be when he wakes up.
ReplyDeleteor maybe just inserts "fagboy" where it reads an "a". I just gave it a cursory glance. No one's comments have been overwritten however. He just copied them all and did his little thing and paste/posted it once. Annoying but hardly damaging in any way to anyone other than the putz who posted it.
ReplyDelete... not to mention the fact that the use homophobic "fag" epithet shows quite well the low level of the ****hole involved in that ... whatever that was supposed to be...
ReplyDeleteSorry, I have wasted enough time ranting on that I go back lurking!
I have a question for you legal types.
ReplyDeleteThe Constitution says that Congress can't pass ex-post facto laws. So if this Specter bill does go through and passes both houses to be signed by the president, so long as this case is already underway, that bill can't transfer jurisdiction to FISA, right?
So would that caveat apply in this case? Since this case is already underway, the Specter bill won't apply. At least that's my understanding.
What do you folks think?
Glenn may be right this is "huge news" but I am guessing he is wrong.
ReplyDeleteThere are a few caveats to note here... Second, the dreaded, pending Specter legislation contains a provision for all of the cases challenging the NSA program (including this one) to be consolidated (transferred) to the secret FISA court, which would remove jurisdiction altogether from this court or the Ninth Circuit.
Only if one thought the Specter legislation would not pass could one consider this "huge news." As I see no reason to think that, I see no reason to view this as anything other than just another development which will come to naught.
The "huge news" would be if the Specter legislation or one substantially like it does not pass and fails because enough resistance to the government's trashing of the Fourth Amendment had finally taken hold in this country.
Dipshit
ReplyDeleteWith your off-topic unrelated pathetic post as always you are the perfect poster boy for the hollowness of the right wing side of the discussion.
As your beloved president used to say "mission accomplished" : you rest the case that there is nothing left worth listening in the right wing blogosphere..
Re: the major -
ReplyDeleteI daresay s/he's surpassed parody and now simply comic relief.
I mean, is it biologically possible for a human being to actually be this stupid?
Terrific work Glenn. Though I understand the right-wing backlash against you must be a drag at times, you're too valuable to get bogged down in silly flame wars. Good to see you back doing what you do best.
ReplyDeleteMest,
m
Just for my own piece of mind . i'd like to remind other readers that..
ReplyDeleteThe freedom of speach and the right to bear arm's(or is it arm bears?.lol.) exist for the same purpose.
To allow the people of the USA to defend themselves against tyrany, and or other threats.
There will always be people who missuse there rights and ignore there responsabilitys. but if we strip ourselves of these rights in the name of national security. who is going to protect us from our so called protectors?
Ive not seen any one state the defence of these rights from this angle (tho that may be more a matter of me not reading enough).
i mention all this fore one reason ..so that in all the fever of protecting one constitutional right we dont for get the others. or the reasons behind them.
one non politicaly aligned individual LoganPDL
The Major Said:
ReplyDelete"I personally favor the 10 commandments so do other conservatives."
What about "Thall Shall Not Kill"? - Is there an asterisk in the Bible that says "Except in cases of vengence or punishment?"
The 10 commandments are pretty cut and dry and people like you go against the word of God.
EWO - The "huge news" would be if the Specter legislation or one substantially like it does not pass and fails because enough resistance to the government's trashing of the Fourth Amendment had finally taken hold in this country.
ReplyDeleteThis is basically the first time ever that a federal court has squarely rejected a President's assertion of the "state secrets" doctrine. There have been very few times in the past when courts applied it less sweepingly than a President wanted, but this is really the first time a federal court has so skeptically scrutinzed the claim and just rejected it outright.
That unprecedented, combined with Hamdan, signals that federal courts are starting to impose real checks on the administration's claims to limitless power. I suppose the term "huge news" is quite subjective, but I think this clearly applies.
If "huge news", to you, is defeat of the Specter bill, then - as my post this morning suggests - there many be good opportunities to generate yet more huge news.
I have discovered that The Major (maybe Captain) is actually Stephen Colbert. No one else could produce satire of that quality.
ReplyDeleteEyes Wide Open: Only if one thought the Specter legislation would not pass could one consider this "huge news."
ReplyDeleteI wonder, though, if the decision might not have some beneficial impact on the Specter bill. I don't suppose you can actually trust Senators to read the bills they're passing, or think about them, but if anything might have an influence on their deliberations, this looks like something that should.
True, it could be passed off as the decision of a single activist judge, sure to be overturned on appeal, but then there are now not one, but two Supreme Court decisions which call the Yoo/Addison theories into serious question. I wonder if some Republican senators aren't getting a little nervous, at least nervous enough to be vulnerable to a little lobbying from the left.
Yes, I know, what was I thinking?
Seth said...
ReplyDelete"I have discovered that The Major (maybe Captain) is actually Stephen Colbert. No one else could produce satire of that quality."
It seems to me more plausible that Colbert and his staff regularly monitor threads such as this to research what the real wingnuts are saying, then using the gleaned material in Colbert's routines. Perhaps you'll see one of the Major's nuggets on an upcoming Colbert show.
UPDATE II: John Amato has obtained documents relevant to the controversy arising out of President Bush's refusal to provide classification clearances necessary for the DoJ investigation into whether its lawyers acted ethically with regard to the NSA program (as a result of his personal refusal to authorize such clearances, the investigation never occurred).
ReplyDeleteAccording to John, the documents he posted show that -- in rather stark contrast to the President's refusal to issue clearances to enable the DoJ lawyers to be investigated -- the clearances necessary to enable the criminal investigation into The New York Times and the leak itself were given almost immediately. The common theme among that behavior and the administration's exploitation of the "state secrets" doctrine is that the administration uses concepts of national security as a game, as a selective weapon, to promote its political objectives.
Actually, the difference between the two is the the NYT is suspected of several serious felony crimes while the other is a partisan witch hunt requested only by Donkey members of Congress involving no crimes whatsoever.
However, it is good to know that Justice actually has lawyers cleared to start investigating the NYT apparent felonies. Now if they will call a grand jury...
Actually, the difference between the two is the the NYT is suspected of several serious felony crimes while the other is a partisan witch hunt requested only by Donkey members of Congress involving no crimes whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a coincidence that your critical, skeptical mind's judgements happen to coincide with the party line on every issue, right?
(I know you'll pull out some big, big issues you disagree with them on,.. I'm actually being unfair, you only buy into the small stuff like torture, domestic spying, pre-emptive nukes, unrestrainable executive, secret trials with secret evidence, etc.)
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteThe Bush adminstration suffered an enormous defeat today...
Ah, the master of hyperbole in the face of facts rides again...
Most significantly, the district court, which is in the Northern District of California, rejected the administration's claim that allowing the litigation to proceed would jeopardize the disclosure of "state secrets," a doctrine which the administration has repeatedly exploited to prevent judicial review of its conduct.
This is only partially correct.
The Court declined to dismiss the case on the grounds that the very existence of the program was classified because the government, in response to the press accounts, had admitted the existence of the program.
However, the Court delayed ruling on whether the plaintiffs requests for discovery will violate the secrets privilege until he sees the requests.
As you will see, this is a delayed execution.
Underscoring how courts virtually always accept the government's claim of state secrets, the court began by discussing the long line of cases in which, in almost every instance, courts deferred to the Government's assertion that state secrets would be jeopardized by ongoing litigation. Indeed, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- the appellate court which is above this district court -- previously directed that "utmost deference" be given to the government's invocation of this claim. Dec. at p. 14.
The fact that the Court took the time to describe in detail all the case law which enforced the state secrets privilege, including the binding case law of its own circuit, without once referring to the plaintiffs' law are very bad tea leaves for the plaintiffs when the issue of their discovery requests comes up.
The court first ruled that -- in order to determine whether the existence of the program was a "state secret" -- it would rely upon only the Bush administration's public statements, and not any statements from the press or former AT&T employees.
This is a killer for the plaintiffs' attempts to seek discovery of any materials to which the government has not previously admitted. Under this interpretation, anything not admitted to by the government, even if it was illegally leaked by the press, is considered to still be classified as a matter of fact. That means that the state secrets privilege should apply to all classified material under the case law lovingly detailed by the Court in about a dozen pages of its opinion.
UPDATE: The district court judge distinguished all of the other prior cases which accepted the government's claim of state secrets...
This, quite simply, is not at all true.
The Court directly analogized this case to two others in which the plaintiff's claims were dismissed after discovery began once it became plain that the materials sought in discovery were subject to the state secrets privilege. To wit, the Court stated:
The court also declines to decide at this time whether this case should be dismissed on the ground that the government’s state secrets assertion will preclude evidence necessary for plaintiffs to establish a prima facie case or for AT&T to raise a valid defense to the claims. Plaintiffs appear to be entitled to at least some discovery. See infra I(G)(3). It would be premature to decide these issues at the present time. In drawing this conclusion, the court is following the approach of the courts in Halkin v Helms and Ellsberg v Mitchell; these courts did not dismiss those cases at the outset but allowed them to proceed to discovery sufficiently to assess the state secrets privilege in light of the facts. The government has not shown why that should not be the course of this litigation.
Here is the Court's summary of these two analogous cases. This is lengthy, but the Court put in all this work to establish the foundation for its future opinions.
In Halkin v Helms, 598 F2d 1 (DC Cir 1978) (Halkin I), the District of Columbia Circuit applied the principles enunciated in Reynolds in an action alleging illegal NSA wiretapping. Former Vietnam War protestors contended that “the NSA conducted
warrantless interceptions of their international wire, cable and telephone communications” at the request of various federal defendants and with the cooperation of telecommunications providers. Id at 3.
Plaintiffs challenged two separate NSA
operations: operation MINARET, which was “part of [NSA’s] regular signals intelligence activity in which foreign electronic signals were monitored,” and operation SHAMROCK, which involved “processing of all telegraphic traffic leaving or entering the United States.” Id at 4.
The government moved to dismiss on state secrets grounds, arguing that civil discovery would impermissibly “(1) confirm the identity of individuals or organizations whose foreign communications were acquired by NSA, (2) disclose the dates and contents of such communications, or (3) divulge the methods and techniques by which the communications were acquired by NSA.” Id
at 4-5.
After plaintiffs “succeeded in obtaining a limited amount of discovery,” the district court concluded that plaintiffs’ claims challenging operation MINARET could not proceed because “the ultimate issue, the fact of acquisition, could neither be admitted nor denied.” Id at 5. The court denied the government’s motion to dismiss on claims challenging operation SHAMROCK because the court “thought congressional committees investigating intelligence matters had revealed so much information about SHAMROCK that such a disclosure would pose no threat to the NSA mission.” Id at 10.
On certified appeal, the District of Columbia Circuit noted that even “seemingly innocuous” information is privileged if that information is part of a classified “mosaic” that “can be analyzed and fitted into place to reveal with startling clarity how the unseen whole must operate.” Id at 8. The court affirmed
dismissal of the claims related to operation MINARET but reversed the district court’s rejection of the privilege as to operation SHAMROCK, reasoning that “confirmation or denial that a particular plaintiff's communications have been acquired would disclose NSA capabilities and other valuable intelligence information to a sophisticated intelligence analyst.” Id at 10.
On remand, the district court dismissed plaintiffs’ claims against the NSA and individuals connected with the NSA’s alleged monitoring. Plaintiffs were left with claims against the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and individuals who had allegedly submitted watchlists to the NSA on the presumption that the submission resulted in interception of plaintiffs’ communications. The district court eventually dismissed the CIA-related claims as well on state secrets grounds and the case went up again to the court of appeals.
The District of Columbia Circuit stated that the state secrets inquiry “is not a balancing of ultimate interests at stake in the litigation,” but rather “whether the showing of the harm that might reasonably be seen to flow from disclosure is adequate in a given case to trigger the absolute right to withhold the information sought in that case.” Halkin v Helms, 690 F2d 977, 990 (DC Cir 1982) (Halkin II). The court then affirmed dismissal of “the claims for injunctive and declaratory relief against the CIA defendants based upon their submission of plaintiffs’ names on Case 3:06-cv-00672-VRW Document 308 Filed 07/20/2006 ‘watchlists’ to NSA.” Id at 997 (emphasis omitted).
The court found that plaintiffs lacked standing given the court’s “ruling in Halkin I that evidence of the fact of acquisition of plaintiffs’ communications by NSA cannot be obtained from the government, nor
can such fact be presumed from the submission of watchlists to that Agency.” Id at 999 (emphasis omitted).
In Ellsberg v Mitchell, 709 F2d 51 (DC Cir 1983), the District of Columbia Circuit addressed the state secrets privilege in another wiretapping case. Former defendants and attorneys in the “Pentagon Papers” criminal prosecution sued individuals who allegedly were responsible for conducting warrantless electronic surveillance. Id at 52-53. In response to plaintiffs’ interrogatories, defendants admitted to two wiretaps but refused to answer other questions on the ground that the requested information was privileged. Id at 53. The district court sustained the government’s formal assertion of the state secrets privilege and dismissed plaintiffs’ claims pertaining to foreign communications surveillance. Id at 56.
On appeal, the District of Columbia Circuit noted that “whenever possible, sensitive information must be disentangled from nonsensitive information to allow for the release of the latter.” Id at 57. The court generally affirmed the district court’s decisions regarding the privilege, finding “a ‘reasonable danger’ that revelation of the information in question would either enable a sophisticated analyst to gain insights into the nation’s intelligence-gathering methods and capabilities or would disrupt diplomatic relations with foreign governments.” Id at 59.
The court disagreed with the district court’s decision that the privilege precluded discovery of the names of the attorneys general that authorized the surveillance. Id at 60. Additionally, responding to plaintiffs’ argument that the district court should have required the government to disclose more fully its basis for asserting the privilege, the court recognized that “procedural innovation” was within the district court’s discretion and noted that “[t]he government’s public statement need be no more (and no less) specific than is practicable under the circumstances.” Id at 64.
In considering the effect of the privilege, the court affirmed dismissal “with regard to those [individuals] whom the government ha[d] not admitted overhearing.” Id at 65. But the court did not dismiss the claims relating to the wiretaps that the government had conceded, noting that there was no reason to “suspend the general rule that the burden is on those seeking an exemption from the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement to show the
need for it.” Id at 68.
In sum, unless the Government has admitted to overhearing an identified plaintiff (which it has not), then plaintiffs' upcoming discovery requests for classified materials should be denied and the case dismissed for lack of evidence under the precedent being used by the Court.
Glenn, if this is your idea of an "enormous victory," you must not have actually won very many cases in your practice.
Bart:Actually, the difference between the two is the the NYT is suspected of several serious felony crimes while the other is a partisan witch hunt requested only by Donkey members of Congress involving no crimes whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteGood to see you acknowledge that the Administration made the decision based purely on the purposes of the security clearances, rather than the reasons of necessity we have been given.
I also find it quite revealing that you ascribe political motivation to the Democrats even though they only requested the investigation (which is thoroughly within the prerogative of the oversight responsibilities of Congress), DOJ decided on its own to proceed with it, and Bush himself was the one to pull the rug out from under it using the backhanded tactic of refusing to grant security clearances. And it's the "Donkeys" who are being political in all this.
Remarkable.
DCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteBart:Actually, the difference between the two is the the NYT is suspected of several serious felony crimes while the other is a partisan witch hunt requested only by Donkey members of Congress involving no crimes whatsoever.
Good to see you acknowledge that the Administration made the decision based purely on the purposes of the security clearances, rather than the reasons of necessity we have been given.
I agree. The President simply ignored the improper request instead of picking a fight.
I also find it quite revealing that you ascribe political motivation to the Democrats even though they only requested the investigation (which is thoroughly within the prerogative of the oversight responsibilities of Congress)...
Congressional oversight powers do not extend to deputizing the DOJ to conduct improper congressional investigations of the advice given to the President.
Given how much these same Donkeys (and fellow Elephants) were screaming about Justice seizing the office materials in Jefferson's office on the ground that they were private political correspondences, their bleating about gaining access to the advice given to the President is the height of hypocrisy.
Given that only Donkeys attempted this fishing expedition against an Elephant president makes its partisan intent pretty clear.
From Bart at 1:30pm:
ReplyDeleteGiven that only Donkeys attempted this fishing expedition against an Elephant president makes its partisan intent pretty clear.
The sad bit is I think you really believe this and don't see larger issues at stake.
But then you still think the invasion of Iraq was a good idea to begin with; puts you in the same company of the Senator from CN. Ironic, that.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 1:30pm: Given that only Donkeys attempted this fishing expedition against an Elephant president makes its partisan intent pretty clear.
The sad bit is I think you really believe this and don't see larger issues at stake.
Exactly what larger issue is at stake?
This was an attempt to hijack the normal ethics oversight process within Justice to circumvent executive privilege to obtain access to advice given to the President.
Once again, the President has given the legal authority upon which he is acting. If Congress thinks that his actions were not authorized by that authority, then they are free to impeach him or at least call for his impeachment.
Instead, these cowards want to put some attorneys through the wringer of an ethics investigation for the crime of giving the President advice.
Reprehensible.
From Bart at 2:02pm:
ReplyDeleteExactly what larger issue is at stake?
The same one that has been at issue since the original revelations of the NSA undertaking warrantless surveillance: the question of whether or not the President of the United States is bound to obey US Statutes (specifically FISA) under present circumstances while engaging in measures he deems are vital to national security.
Your own view gives primacy to Article II of the Constitution, thereby effectively voiding any Statute or Congressional action that might limit the President's actions. My own opinion, shared by many others here, insist Congress has an equal role and, indeed, the Bush Administration has seriously overstepped itself and its authority (at least with respect to this surveillance program).
This case is simply the latest of the many hydra-heads of this scandal to come to the fore. You insist on calling it "reprehensible" and a "witch hunt", yet by any objective measure this is a perfectly sensible move to learn exactly what advice is being given to the President under these increasingly uncertain circumstances.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither have actually been tested in Court as yet; your favorite laundry list of cases (with two uninvolved exceptions) all pre-date the passage of FISA, and so are uninstructive.
That's the larger issue: is the President bound by the same laws as the rest of us?
The Major is parody, right?
ReplyDeleteThe misspellings, flailing attempts at analysis, right-wing cliches.
Has to be parody.
Yes?
Bart,
ReplyDeleteWhat is "reprehensible" is in fact your apparent misunderstanding of the duties of a government lawyer. If a private attorney gives frivolous, dangerous advice to his client, he is liable for malpractice. Government attorneys have a similar duty not to provide frivolous legal advice to their superiors, particularly upon belief that it is somehow their duty to justify the government's position at all costs.
Government attorneys, like all public servants, have a heightened obligation to the law. When they are called into a capacity not to prosecute or argue a case in controversy but to present an objective view of the law, they have an even greater obligation to present a balanced view.
That DOJ attorneys clearly sought only to justify the actions already taken by the Executive Branch, and completely ignored what is widely regarded as overwhelming law to the contrary, at the peril of the government that relied upon its advice in unapologetically going forward, is at the very least grounds for an investigation into whether they exercised due diligence in mounting and presenting their arguments as non-frivolous. The investigation could very well exhonerate those attorneys, but under these circumstances it should at least be allowed to commence.
Democrats did not "deputize" OPR as you allege. If you think this occurred, or is even legally possible, you have both an incredibly high opinion of Democrats' power and a very poor understanding of how the government operates. OPR, like most oversight agencies, has discretion to take up or pass upon requests for investigation, including those that come from members of Congress.
Having worked on cases dealing with OPR, I can tell you firsthand that they don't chase every rabbit that runs by them. They have limited resources, and need to pick their battles carefully. They took up this investigation on their own volition and were in no way compelled by "the Donkeys."
When an independent watchdog group within the government is about to commence an investigation of the government's activities, and the President himself intervenes to block that investigation on such selectively applied and circuitous grounds, to say that anyone but he is acting politically is the very height of dishonesty at worst and ignorance at best.
OPR could have easily released its conclusions without disclosing any sensitive or classified information. In any event, had it felt unable to do so, it could have said so on its own accord and acted accordingly (unless you think that OPR, like the CIA, is a bloodthirsty fifth column out to get the President). For Bush to deprive its investigators of necessary security clearances is blatantly to declare either that these investigators are too untrustworthy to be allowed such access, or that they will likely uncover something embarrassing to the President.
bart: I agree. The President simply ignored the improper request instead of picking a fight.
ReplyDeleteHe's a pretty smart and classy guy.
bart, you have a business, correct?
Would you trust the president to manage it for you for 8 years?
Glenn or other lawyer- -
ReplyDeleteAny idea on what the standard of review will be if and when the gov.t appeals this?
That is, will the appellate court have to give deference to the district court's ruling? I am unfamiliar with such procedural rules in civil contexts + state's secrets. I guess it may present a question of law to be reviewed de novo... but not sure since the party asserting a motion to dismiss in a civil case has to show that even if the plaintiff's allegations (well pleaded facts) are true, they still are not entitled to relief? Any thoughts?
Shorter pseudoconservative (you know who you are):
ReplyDeleteBush is my man. I don't care about privacy, since it messes up my political agenda. I don't understand what the fuss is about Separation of Powers. Sounds like a bad military strategy. You all are dumb for wanting to separate powers during a war. You're the bad guys and nothing will change that. Liberals are always wrong, and King George is always right.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:02pm: Exactly what larger issue is at stake?
The same one that has been at issue since the original revelations of the NSA undertaking warrantless surveillance: the question of whether or not the President of the United States is bound to obey US Statutes (specifically FISA) under present circumstances while engaging in measures he deems are vital to national security.
An "ethics" investigation of some Justice attorneys has nothing at all to do with this.
If Congress thinks the President violated the law, impeach him.
DCLaw1 said...
ReplyDeleteIf a private attorney gives frivolous, dangerous advice to his client, he is liable for malpractice. Government attorneys have a similar duty not to provide frivolous legal advice to their superiors...
I agree.
That ethical duty is only owed to the party requesting the advice - the President.
Congress is not part of this attorney client relationship.
By blocking this congressionally requested ethics investigation, it appears the President as the client is perfectly satisfied with the advice.
Democrats did not "deputize" OPR as you allege. If you think this occurred, or is even legally possible, you have both an incredibly high opinion of Democrats' power and a very poor understanding of how the government operates. OPR, like most oversight agencies, has discretion to take up or pass upon requests for investigation, including those that come from members of Congress.
Having worked on cases dealing with OPR, I can tell you firsthand that they don't chase every rabbit that runs by them. They have limited resources, and need to pick their battles carefully. They took up this investigation on their own volition and were in no way compelled by "the Donkeys."
Justice, like all other departments, is completely reliant on the monies appropriated by Congress. When Congress says jump, these departments say how high.
Kelvin McCabe, Esq said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn or other lawyer- - Any idea on what the standard of review will be if and when the gov.t appeals this?
That is, will the appellate court have to give deference to the district court's ruling? I am unfamiliar with such procedural rules in civil contexts + state's secrets. I guess it may present a question of law to be reviewed de novo... but not sure since the party asserting a motion to dismiss in a civil case has to show that even if the plaintiff's allegations (well pleaded facts) are true, they still are not entitled to relief? Any thoughts?
If the government wishes to appeal, and they may not, all the issues of law will be reviewed de novo with no duty to extend deference to the district court. However, the district court opinion is so well supported and reasoned, it may receive a great deal of effective deference.
The government should probably just advance to discovery, deny the requests as privileged and renew their motion to dismiss.
just as rational people watch O'Reilly to form critiques over at mediamatters, I think righteeos, including judges, surf the rational blogs. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence against Cheney's reign of terror is sinking in, particularly the facts contradicting the 9-11 commission. Since 9-11 is the lynchpin of all the flying excrementum, it goes to follow that the foundation for dictatorship is eroding due to the spread of factual data. Sure glad that the ninth and not the fourth circuit would hear an appeal.Incidentally, TheMajor's posts sound like a Rovian plant...
ReplyDeleteOrin Kerr writes This Fourth Amendment discussion seems somewhat mystifying to me.
ReplyDeleteYes Orin. We noticed that. You've been struggling with understanding the Fourth Amendment for quite some time now.
As for dicta, I say shmicta. Seems like you're trying to convince Marty Lederman the ruling isn't broader than you say it is. Boy are you a sore loser.
PS. HA HA HA. Orin. This must be a pretty bad day for you. Maybe you can invite Robert Bork over and cry on his shoulder.
Hopefully these judges will stick to their guns and not back down or be swayed by pressure from the administration. Though I fear for them. Too often people in such opposition to presidential administrations turn up dead as has already happened several times during the this and the preious administration. (How many Whitewater and Enron witnesses and others have died?)
ReplyDeleteHowever I'm glad that people are waking up and standing up to this administration's blatant, un-Constitutional abuse of power.
I hope that the same effort will be soon put into electronic voting legeslation so that the next election can't be stolen for someone just like W.
Tachyon
http://tachspot.blogspot.com/
I haven't read the comments so forgive if already mentioned;
ReplyDeletethis will play out with immediate dismaisal in front of the supreme court and every cognitive dissonant will point their fingers in our faces and laugh.
sad but true
we are framing the war of words badly by the way
with this program and no warrants, with no doubt they can steal your company secrets, with the financial information they are able to gather they can take over your most valuable contracts, find your sources, they can out bid you, they can glean the people who have become your personal contacts you've spent your entire carreer to discover, they can steal your trade secrets, they can tell where you've been, where you are going, what you are doing, what you have done, what you are buying, to who you are selling, what price you pay, what price you get, how you manufacture your goods, how you develope your product
that's the short list and only the first few things that come to mind, the long list is too tiresome to post.
but this is what needs to be brought to the table in conversation with those people that have no clue exactly what is going on with these programs
Bart,
ReplyDeleteYou state:
"Justice, like all other departments, is completely reliant on the monies appropriated by Congress. When Congress says jump, these departments say how high."
But the Congress is controlled by "The Elephants" and NOT "The Donkeys." So your whole basis for this sentence is ridiculous, if not ludicrous to begin with.
Get with the program dude. YOU control Congress not "The Donkeys." If they are to jump, it is to your bar not ours.
Senator Bryd had a petition to investigate domestic spying programs at: http://www.byrd2006.com/action/wiretap_petition.cfm
ReplyDelete