(cross-posted at C&L)
The full extent and irreversibility of the damage to our country wrought by the Bush administration will likely not be known until well after George Bush finally disappears from our political life. But understanding the dynamics and impulses of the movement which have enabled these abuses is a critically important task, and that is the project undertaken by John Dean's new best-selling book, Conservatives Without Conscience (selected excerpt is here). Fortuitously for Dean, this examination of what has become the so-called "conservative" movement (composed of Bush followers, neoconservatives and hard-core religious conservatives) comes at the perfect time.
With 2 1/2 years still left for this administration, the true radicalism of the administration and its followers has becoming unavoidably, depressingly clear, and it is equally clear that this movement has not reached anywhere near the peak of its extremism. Dean's central thesis explains why that is so.
Dean contends, and amply documents, that the "conservative" movement has become, at its core, an authoritarian movement composed of those with a psychological and emotional need to follow a strong authority figure which provides them a sense of moral clarity and a feeling of individual power, the absence of which creates fear and insecurity in the individuals who crave it. By definition, its followers' devotion to authority and the movement's own power is supreme, thereby overriding the consciences of its individual members and removing any intellectual and moral limits on what will be justified in defense of their movement.
Dean relies on substantial social science data to illustrate the personality type that seeks out authoritarian movements. But his case is made much more persuasively by what one can visibly see unfolding before one's own eyes.
As Iraq collapses into all-out civil war and new, tragic levels of violence, Bush supporters continue to insist that things are going well there and our invasion was a success. As the Middle East spirals into all-out regional war, Bush supporters insist that this repulsive violence is actually good for the region -- wars are encouraging "birth pangs" on the road to progress, as the Secretary of State put it yesterday -- and they are now actively involving the U.S. in this escalated conflict, even while Iraq rapidly falls apart.
And there is seemingly no limit -- literally -- on the willingness, even eagerness, of Bush supporters to defend and justify even the most morally repugnant abuses -- from constantly expanding spying on American citizens, to a President who claims and aggressively exercises the "right" to break the law, to torturing suspects, imprisoning journalists, and turning the United States into the most feared and hated country on the planet.
And as radical as the administration has become, it is clear that the administration has not even come close to reaching the level of extremism which would be necessary for its supporters to object -- if such a limit exists at all. If anything, on those exceedingly few occasions over six years when his followers have dissented from the Presidents's decisions -- illegal immigration, Harriet Miers, Dubai ports -- it has been not because the administration was too radical, extremist, militaristic and uncompromising -- but insufficiently so.
Bush supporters want more spying, much more aggressive actions against investigative journalists and even domestic political opposition, more death and violence brought to the Middle East, more wars, and still fewer restraints on the President's powers, to the extent there are any real limits left. To them, the Bush administration has not been nearly as extremist and aggressive as it ought to be in dealing with the Enemies. And that is to say nothing of the measures that would be urged, and almost certainly imposed, in the event of another terrorist attack on U.S. soil or in the increasingly likely event that our limited war in Iraq expands into the Epic War of Civilizations which so many of them crave.
Ultimately, as Dean convincingly demonstrates, the characteristic which defines the Bush movement, the glue which binds it together and enables and fuels all of the abuses, is the vicious, limitless methods used to attack and demonize the "Enemy," which encompasses anyone -- foreign or domestic -- threatening to their movement. What defines and motivates this movement are not any political ideas or strategic objectives, but instead, it is the bloodthirsty, ritualistic attacks on the Enemy de jour -- the Terrorist, the Communist, the Illegal Immigrant, the Secularist, and most of all, the "Liberal."
What excites, enlivens, and drives Bush followers is the identification of the Enemy followed by swarming, rabid attacks on it. It is a movement that defines itself not by identifiable ideas but by that which it is not. Its foreign policy objectives are identifiable by one overriding goal -- destroy and kill the Enemy, potential or suspected enemies, and everyone nearby. And it increasingly views its domestic goals through the same lens. It is a movement in a permanent state of war, which views all matters, foreign and domestic, only in terms of this permanent war.
Supreme Court justices who rule against the President on national security matters are tyrants, traitors and pro-terrorist. Journalists who uncover legally dubious government conduct carried out in secret are criminals who should be imprisoned for life or hanged. Virtually every political opponent of the administration's of any significance -- Howard Dean, Al Gore, John Kerry, the Clintons -- is relentlessly branded as a liar, mentally unstable, corrupt, seditious, and sympathetic to the Enemy.
And even those who devoted much of their adult lives to military service to their country (often in ways far more courageous and impressive than most Bush supporters), or even those who have been longtime Republicans and conservatives, have their characters relentlessly smeared and motives and integrity impugned as soon as they criticize the administration in any way that could embarrass the President -- Richard Clarke, Paul O'Neill, the war critic Generals, Joe Wilson, Scott Ritter, Wesley Clark, John Murtha, John Paul Stevens, and on and on and on.
It is a movement devoted to the destruction of its enemies wherever they might be found. And it finds new ones, in every corner and seemingly on a daily basis, because it must. That is the food which sustains it.
* * * * *
In many ways, John Dean is the ideal person to examine this dynamic because he has seen and experienced both sides of it up close and personal. Attracted to the political conservatism of Barry Goldwater, Dean joined the Nixon administration and, at the age of 32, became Nixon's aggressive White House counsel, deeply involved in helping to perpetrate many of the Watergate abuses. Morton Halperin, who was a standing member of Nixon's "enemy list," claimed in an Op-Ed in Friday's Los Angeles Times that Dean authored a 1971 memo setting forth a plan to "use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies."
But in 1973, Dean became the first high-level Nixon official to turn against the administration, famously testifying before the Senate Watergate Committee that the President (as well as Dean himself) was personally involved in the Watergate cover-up. As a result of his refusal to copy the example of blindly loyal authoritarian followers such as G. Gordon Liddy and Charles Colson -- who lied and covered-up for their leader -- Dean became one of the most hated enemies of Nixon followers, a hatred which, he later discovered, would make him the target of the right-wing authoritarian tactics which he previously wielded against Nixon's enemies.
In 1991, as Dean recounts at length, he learned that 60 Minutes and Time Magazine were preparing to feature a new book, entitled Silent Coup, which claimed that Dean himself was the one who ordered the Watergate break-in. The book alleged that Dean's motive was that his wife, Maureen, had a connection to a Washington, DC call-girl operation and thus had knowledge of various sex scandals involving Democrats, and Dean sought to obtain documentation to use against them.
The very idea that Dean himself had ordered the Watergate break-in because of his wife's connection to a call-girl service, and that these secrets were somehow kept for 20 years, was completely absurd on its face. And once Dean vehemently denied these allegations, both 60 Minutes and Time investigated the claims and both decided not to run the story -- a noble decision which, in Time's case, led to the loss of the $50,000 it had paid for the rights to run an excerpt of the book.
But using right-wing smear techniques which, back then, were still new, but which are now a staple of the "conservative" movement, these patently false allegations against Dean were aggressively promoted by right-wing ideologues and then accepted and given great attention by the mainstream media. The book's publishers enlisted both right-wing follower G. Gordon Liddy and by-then-born-again Christian activist Charles Colson -- both of whom still hated Dean for his blasphemy in testifying truthfully against the President -- to promote the book and push its allegations against Dean.
More and more right-wing groups and personalities jumped on board this smear campaign, until it received full-fledged support from mainstream right-wing media personalities. That, in turn, induced many mainstream media programs -- from Good Morning America to CNN's Larry King Live -- to invite the authors on to discuss the book. Out of this now all-too-familiar process, this defamatory book ended up on the New York Times' Best Seller List. As Dean recounts:
Despite most of the news media’s fitting dismissal of Silent Coup’s baseless claims, the protracted litigation provided time for the book to gather a following, including an almost cultlike collection of highprofile right-wingers. Among them, for example, is Monica Crowley, a former aide to Richard Nixon after his presidency, and now a conservative personality on MSNBC, cohosting Connected: Coast to Coast with Ron Reagan. Other prominent media-based conservatives who have joined the glee club are James Rosen and Brit Hume of Fox News. How these seemingly intelligent people embraced this false account mystified me, and I wanted to know. . . .
As for Colson, his reason for promotion of Silent Coup remained a complete mystery for me, as did the motives of people like Monica Crowley, James Rosen, Brit Hume, and all the other hard-core conservatives who embraced this spurious history and made it a best seller. The only thing I could see that these people had in common was their conservatism.
That is how the "conservative" movement works to this day, although its methods have become even more efficient and less scrupulous. Petty allegations and character attacks begin percolating in the smear sewers of the right wing -- through insinuations by talk-radio dirt-mongerers like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, speculation by Matt Drudge, smear campaigns by shadowy groups and organizations, and now by attention-desperate and glory-seeking right-wing blogs. From there, the attacks are reported by the right-wing media and then fed into the mainstream media.
A lynch mob is created which seeks not the truth of what happened, but the destruction of the movement's enemies. "Conservative" rank-and-file, confining themselves to an echo chamber, embrace the allegations instinctively, because they are made by the movement's defenders against the movement's enemies. And their allegiance to their movement and a desire to destroy their opponents overrides any concern for proportionality or truth. As Dean documents, it is what the contemporary, so-called "conservative" movement feeds on more than anything else -- a limitless and bloodthirsty attack on the character of its opponents and enemies.
* * * * *
Dean advances and then amply documents (both with his own analysis and social science data, the former being far more persuasive than the latter) what I consider to be the book's two central points:
First, that what is currently described as the "conservative movement" bears virtually no resemblance to Goldwater's conservatism, and has nothing to do with restraining government power or preserving historical values. Instead, it has transformed into an authoritarian movement which largely attracts personality types characterized by a desire and need to submit to and follow authority.
Second, because those who submit to authority necessarily relinquish their own conscience (in favor of serving the conscience of their leader and/or their movement), those who are part of this movement are capable of acts which a healthy and normal conscience ought to preclude. They can use torture, break laws, wage unnecessary wars based on false pretenses, and attempt to destroy the reputation of plainly patriotic and honest Americans -- provided that they are convinced that doing so advances the interests of the authority they serve and the movement of which they are a part.
The central premise of Dean's argument is that the current "conservative" movement shares none of the core principles of the political conservatism which attracted Dean to its movement -- those espoused by Dean's longtime friend, Barry Goldwater (whose 1960 book, The Conscience of a Conservative, is the source for Dean's title). That the Bush movement bears no resemblance to traditional conservatism is a view shared by scores of the country's most prominent conservatives, such as Pat Buchanan and increasingly George Will. The Father of Modern Conservatism, Bill Buckely, just yesterday pronounced that Bush's "singular problem" is "the absence of effective conservative ideology." And before his death, Barry Goldwater himself frequently accused the religious right of assaulting core conservative principles.
Relatedly, Dean documents that the "conservative" movement is composed of various factions who actually share very little in common in the way of political beliefs and could not come close to agreeing on a core set of political principles and ideals which define their movement. In the absence of a set of core, shared beliefs, what, then, binds them and maintains their allegiance to this political movement?
The answer Dean provides is the shared hatred of common enemies. And their collective attacks on those enemies have become the consevative movement's defining attribute. And that is sufficient to maintain allegiance because, argues Dean, what Bush followers crave more than anything else is submission to a powerful authority as a means of alleviating their fears of ambiguity, uncertainty and complexity -- the same attributes which are common to all followers of authoritarian movements on both the right and the left:
Given the rather distinct beliefs of the various conservative factions, which have only grown more complex with time, how have conservatives succeeded in coalescing as a political force? The simple answer is through the power of negative thinking, and specifically, the ability to find common enemies. . . .
Important conservative opinion journals, like the National Review and Human Events, see the world as bipolar: conservative versus liberal. Right-wing talk radio could not survive without its endless bloviating about the horrors of liberalism. Trashing liberals is nothing short of a cottage industry for conservative authors. . . .
The exaggerated hostility also apparently satisfies a psychological need for antagonism toward the “out group,” reinforces the self-esteem of the conservative base, and increases solidarity within the ranks.
The heart of [New York University Professor John] Jost and his collaborators’ findings was that people become or remain political conservatives because they have a “heightened psychological need to manage uncertainty and threat.” More specifically, the study established that the various psychological factors associated with political conservatives included (and here I am paraphrasing) fear, intolerance of ambiguity, need for certainty or structure in life, overreaction to threats, and a disposition to dominate others.
This data was collected from conservatives willing to explain their beliefs and have their related psychological dynamics studied through various objective testing techniques. These characteristics, Dr. Jost said, typically cannot be ascribed to liberals.
A healthy skepticism is warranted with regard to the ability of social science data to reveal truths about political movements. But ultimately, the ability of that data to persuade is dependent upon the extent to which it comports with one's own observations. And when Dean cites and applies the conclusions of the famous study by Stanley Milgram, in which subject participants administered what seemed to be excruciatingly painful electric shock because they were instructed by authority figures in white coats to do so, its applicability to the Bush movement becomes self-evident:
When "a person acting under authority performs actions that seem to violate his standards of conscience, it would not be true to say that he loses his moral sense," Milgram concluded. Rather, that person simply places his moral views aside. His "moral concern shifts to a consideration of how well he is living up to the expectations of the authority figure."
The Bush administration's ability to engage in extraordinary and radical behavior has not occurred in a vacuum. The administration is radical and can act seemingly without limits because its supporters and followers are radical and limitless in their allegiance to its abuses. Understanding the disturbing and dangerous human dynamic which fuels that movement is critical to understanding the movement itself, and ultimately, to defeating it. Dean's book is a uniquely valuable tool for understanding what the so-called "conservative" movement has become.
UPDATE: It is difficult to select a 1,000 word excerpt from the book, as most of Dean's arguments are lengthier and can't be contained within that limit, but I've selected a somewhat representative sample from a different part of the book than that which is highlighted in the review. The excerpt is here.
On a conceptual level, Glenn, how do you intend to mesh this argument about the fauxness of contemporary conservatism with your oft-repeated assertion that GWB has given us real conservatism, and that his failures are conservatism's failures?
ReplyDeleteIsn't Dean just making another version of the point that "conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed"? Do you credit his claim that Goldwater et al. had principles that were more than stalking horses for xenophobia, militarism, and so on?
Haven't read the book yet but wonder how this interest in the authoritarian personality may come to jibe with your blog's motif about recent, disingenuous attempts to salvage conservatism from the smoking ashes of -- well, everything, really.
Been haunting this blog all the time, since about the time you were mentioned in the Harvard Crimson in May. It's absolutely stellar and important work you're doing.
Standing Eagle
I think US liberals have two overlapping problems to address Glenn, the patriotism and money conservatism of the corporate culture and christian fundamentalism. The fundies are more dangerous as they will stop at nothing in their attempts to manipulate world events in order to create the impression that Biblical prophecies are about to come true.
ReplyDeleteThus you can expect conflict to escalate as GOP poll ratings decline until its possible to cancel elections and proceed under a "government of national unity," thus ensuring the Republican succession.
Keep a close eye on how things unfold over the next few months.
Glenn, thanks for another superb post!
ReplyDeleteWhat you've described comports with my thoughts all along that these folks have what I describe as "fear management" issues.
They've never been able to deal with their "fear" (as normal people do as a part of growing up), but instead that "fear" is "managed" by turning it into "hate".
That which they "fear" becomes that which they "hate".
Reason does not enter into the equation. Their reaction becomes a learned-response deeply embedded in their psyche that is the first and sometimes, only response to fear!
Small wonder that anyone who engenders that "fear", be they liberal, progressive, and yes, even conservative, becomes the target of hate!
I think it would have been easier simply to write that Bush in the Iron Chancellor, Bismark. His supporters get some convex combination of psychological and financial gain from supporting him.
ReplyDeleteI think (IMHO) it's also related to a form of *tribalism* or rather *neo-tribalism* as an over-arching phenomenon of how to Identify the In Group (Conservatives - from their point of view) versus the Out Group (Liberals).
ReplyDeleteIt's a dichotomy that must be kept up, but the "fear-mongering" circumstances that allow for the Authoritarian strains to fully assert themselves within this Group dynamic.
thomas jefferson was a friggin genious;
ReplyDeletecheck out this friggin quote right on topic to greemwalds post
Originally Posted by thomas jefferson
Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: (1) Those that fear and distrust people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. (2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depository of the public interests. In every country these two parties exist; and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. - Letter to Henry Lee (August 10, 1824)
and there you have it, and there is the reason you see people continue to support the travesty that is happening to this once proud beacon of democracy
One aspect of this argument left unexplored is that the Bushies came into office on a platform that more or less explicitly rejected extremism. This was the "compassionate conservativism" snake oil, which, we should recall was meant to inoculate the GOP from the revulsion many voters felt watching the 1996 Convention, when Pat Buchanan memorably declared from the podium that there was a "culture war" in America. (Hence it's a little ironic to find Pat now being cited as a dissident from conservative authoritarianism.)
ReplyDeleteLet's take for granted that the "compassionate conservative" rhetoric was nothing more than window dressing. The fact that the GOP felt it had to tack to the center should have had two effects: 1) the rhetoric should have infuriated the very authoritarian personalities that allegedly make up its core; 2) the moderate voters who were seduced by this message should have bailed early on once it became clear that these people were anything but moderates. Neither of these things happened. On the contrary, Bush got millions MORE votes in 2004 than he got in 2000. How did this happen?
I think it's all very well and good to talk about a core minority of the population that's predisposed to fascism, but the more disturbing question is how that minority wound up becoming a majority. I have my theories, but would like to hear Glenn's.
There is an extended excerpt from Dean's book regarding the right-wing smear campaign against him and his wife on www.alternet.org.
ReplyDeleteGreat post - I just wish that this post somehow was manditory reading for Kurtz, Broder, Ifill, Cokie, and all the other pundits who think that "both sides" are to blame for the nasty tone in Washington.
"...born-against Christian right activist Charles Colson"
ReplyDeleteBest. Typo. Ever.
Wait wait wait...
ReplyDeleteSo the Bush administration has failed calamitously, has made a mockery of the nation you love, and then you say you're going to put up with 2 1/2 years more of it?
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. "
I think it's an interesting concept, how to really mesh these two ideas, that the current "conservative" movement shares little resemblance of traditional conservatism, and the idea that the current problems ARE a failure of conservatism.
ReplyDeleteI think it can be meshed together however. One aspect of traditional conservatism is reliance on traditional institutions (church and family), in authoritarian forms. This is what really opens the door for this type of thinking to become mainstream.
Although this doesn't resemble intellectual conservatism, it's the end result of what they're selling.
Dean relies on substantial social science data to illustrate the personality type that seeks out authoritarian movements. But his case is made much more persuasively by what one can visibly see unfolding before one's own eyes.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in the deep south in the late seventies & eighties, and I can tell you that these tendencies were observable even then-- I suppose unsurprisingly, because it's obvious to even a casual observer that the US has been Confederatized, politically speaking. The power grabs & political consolidation in fundamentalist churches, the tendency to groupthink, sometimes prompted discussions in our household about why some people needed to think that they were part of a group that could exert control over its own members and outsiders. And the racism and soft militancy among even non-churchgoers was obvious as well, which my mother attributed to insecurity & thoughtlessness early on, having encountered it close up after moving there during the upheaval of the sixties.
Dean is right on target...and that's why American democracy is either in a coma or already dead. Even if we manage to have honest elections -- a very big if in these troubled times -- that put the Dems in control of the White House and Congress, the authoritarian right will just use its smear/propaganda/brainwashing machine to relentlessly and viciously undermine the new government. That's what was going on during the Clinton administration, and the authoritarian right is even more powerful than it was then.
ReplyDeleteThe only force that could really save our country would be an invigorated and democratic (small d) center-right that overpowers and marginalizes the authoritarian right and takes back control of the Republican Party. Unfortunately, the pro-democracy center-right was neutered and/or assimilated by the right-wing Borg back in the early to mid 80s. The center cannot hold because although we still have a democratic center-left (i.e., liberals), the democratic center-right has ceased to exist, although its ghostly remains can occasionally be spotted in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states.
What continues to strike me about Dean's premise is that the cult that NeoCons have become are so driven by the mantra of crushing all opposition that they have lost all ability to reflect on themselves. It's truly become You're either with us or against us. And while they exert all their energies and braincells into The Crush, there is no time left to promote and nurture this Country.
ReplyDeleteI think it would have been easier simply to write that Bush in the Iron Chancellor, Bismark...
ReplyDeleteNo. Bismark was intelligent, curious, and, most of all, competent.
Collin
John Dean is on C-SPAN 2 discussing his book untill 12:30 pm est.
ReplyDeleteThe Resume of George W. Bush
ReplyDeleteGeorge W. Bush
The White House, USA
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
LAW ENFORCEMENT:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol.
I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days.
My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.
MILITARY:
I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use.
By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.
COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University with a low C average.
I was a cheerleader.
PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.
I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975.
I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas.
The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.
With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:
I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.
I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.
I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.
With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.
I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.
In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.
I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.
I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President.
I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.
My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.
My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.
I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution.
More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.
I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history.
I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.
I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.
I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.
I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).
I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.
I set the the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period.
After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.
I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.
I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in wartime.
In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.
I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security. I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical bunker Buster," a WMD.
I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring in Osama Bin Laden and, in fact, have called off the search.
RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.
All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
The idea that the Bushniks are "conservatives" is rubbish. Glenn wrote a good post on this subject a while back. The Right has pulled off a critical semantic coup in fooling the MSM into calling them 'conservatives.' The term gives the wingnuts a sort of old-fashioned respectability and political legitimacy that they do not deserve.
ReplyDeleteHofstadter had these guys pegged years ago. He was a genius. There is a new biography of Hofstadter out. This is the review in the NYObserver
ReplyDeleteThe Paranoid Style in American Politics
And Other Essays
Richard Hofstadter
PART I: Studies In The American Right
1. The Paranoid Style in American Politics
2. The Pseudo-Conservative Revolt-1954
3. Pseudo-Conservatism Revisited-1965
4. Goldwater and Pseudo-Conservative Politics
The title essay is often found on-line.
I think it's fortunate for John Dean (who has written a spectacular book I am just now finishing) that there is a Glenn Greenwald around to write such a superb review of his book.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember seeing reviews of that caliber (but perhaps I missed those) of Glenn's own book. One of the unfortunate aspects of our society is the singular absence of the MSM in giving coverage of events or ideas which conflict with the views of those who own the MSM.
In America "truth" has long been for sale. We see it in expert witness testimony, in the corrupt reports from forensic labs that send innocent people to prison, and even in policy disputes among scientists themselves. In scholarship, ideas that are too challenging to prevailing opinion have a rough row to hoe and often cannot get a hearing.
Even the president of Harvard University, Larry Summers, an academic economist of some note and a former Secretary of the Treasury, was forced to resign because he offered a politically incorrect hypothesis about the relative scarcity of women in science.
The few reporters and columnists who are brave or naive enough to speak out are constrained by editors who are constrained by owners and advertisers. For example, it is impermissible to examine the gaping holes in the 9/11 Commission Report. Publications and editors are intimidated by the charge of "conspiracy theory," just as criticism of Israel is muted for fear of being labeled "anti-semitic."
All of these reasons and others make truth a scarce commodity.
Censorship exists everywhere and is especially heavy in the US mainstream media.
Paul Craig Roberts
(thanks to Counterpunch.com)
PS. What a terrific one-two punch to see Glenn's book cover displayed side by side with that of John Dean's new book. I think I'll copy and enlarge that graphic, add a few artistic flourishes and hang it on my wall as artistic documentation that there are still some true patriots left in America.
...[P]seudo-conservatism is, among other things, a disorder in relation to authority, characterized by an inability to find other modes for human relationship than those of more or less complete domination or submission. The pseudo-conservative always imagines himself to be dominated and imposed upon because he feels that he is not dominant, and knows of no other way of interpreting his position.
ReplyDelete--Richard Hofstadter, The Pseudo-Conservative Revolt - 1954
The new conservative has a persona not unlike their professed antagonists, radical Islam.
ReplyDeleteBingo!
As Bertrand Russell said: "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
I forgot to add that if it wasn't for the blogosphere we wouldn't be able to read great reviews like the one Glenn just wrote of John Dean's book and books would have to rise or fall based upon reviews written by those reviewers the MSM often chooses for the precise reason the reviewers are strident intellectual enemies of the ideas of the author in the book they are reviewing.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine having to read a review of John Dean's book by Alan Dershowitz? Yikes.
And we were hardly able to read any reviews of Glenn's own book in the MSM. Guess they couldn't contact David Horowitz to hire him to review Glenn's book so they chose to pass....
> .. if such a limit exists at all.
ReplyDeleteOh, yes the limit exists. You take any one of these true believers, subject them to the exact same treatment that they prescribe for others, then see what they say. What they squeal, actually. Like a pig stuck in a fence.
Just compare how Rush's opinion on how how drug laws ought to be enforced when he is the subject. Just one example out of many.
It isn't that they want their leader to be unassailable, its that they want their own personal privileges to be unassailable. Separate the the privilege from the leader, and they become undone quite quickly.
Good examples of obedience to the autoritarian mentality:
ReplyDelete1) From the recent Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the Hamdan case:
LEAHY: Was the President right or was he wrong?
BRABURY: It’s under the law of war –
LEAHY: Was the President right or was he wrong?
BRADBURY: The President is always right.
2) Rummy:
Needless to say.
The President is correct
Whatever it was he said.
From: The Existential Poetry of Donald H. Rumsfeld (Free Press)
Excellent post, Glenn, and Dean’s insights into the psychological motivations of the Bushistas seem compelling. I would caution against seeing it as the ‘prime mover’ of the geopolitical events we’re witnessing, though. Rather, it is simply the most visible element of a toxic feedback loop: the U.S. economy is built on cheap energy (particularly the precarious exurban car culture); corporations who profit from that economy take control of much of the machinery of governance (particularly the mass media); those interests lock us into an incestuous relationship with tyrants who control that oil; oil supplies are threatened, shaking the fragile foundations that suburban lifestyles are built on; subconsciously terrified suburbanites seek clarity and refuge from the forces which were responsible for the flimsiness of our precarious suburban existences in the first place. (And this loop doubles in intensity when you throw in the outsourcing of much of America’s productive capacity to China and Third World countries.)
ReplyDeleteIt’s important to understand the ‘authoritarian mind set’ of the amalgam of right wing interests that have seized control of our country. Certainly, the cataclysmic events looming on the horizon are unlikely to be avoided if those right wing forces can’t be dislodged from power. However, the selection process that placed folks with that mindset in control of our government and much of our political culture is being fueled by the techtonic shifts of our fading cheap oil-based economy.
In other words, it would be tremendously misleading to view the insecurities motivating the fear and rage of the Bushista base as merely the individual neuroses of psychologically defective inidividuals.
A non-authoritarian party which is somehow able to take the helm is unlikely to have more than a brief reign if it can’t devise a ‘soft landing’ for an unsustainable economic culture. That challenge, needless to say, will be immense.
I was quite glad to see this review this morning. I got about half way through Dean's book last night. What struck me about the substance of the social science research Dean cites in the first half was how readily I could place the definitions of authoritarian personality types upon people I know or have known as a part of my life.
ReplyDeleteBy being able to place indviduals I've had experience with within these definitions and then using their distinct personality quirks in the context of the viciousness of the current authoritarian conservative movement I could then understand the true motivations of the movement itself.
The question of those who disagree with the Bush cult is usually along the lines of: "Don't they have any shame?"
Dean's book answers that question. For most of the followers they do have some shame, but it is quickly and easily set aside so that they are able to please whomever they believe is thier authority figure.
For some, the "particularly scary" ones. They have no conscience. I would imagine that most people could easily find an example of an individual that they know personally that has these particular traits. One common refrain that I heard about one "particularly scary" individual that I worked with for more than a year was: "how can he call himself a christian?" Well, they can do it because it serves their purpose, being a christian or being a torturer or a thief, it does not matter...they will do whatever they like because they have no conscience.
Saying the end justifies the means for these individuals is a waste of the breath, they will do anything because it serves them and for not other reason. They don't experience shame or second thoughts.
Transferring these definitions from individuals we know personally to people we see in public life then gives an incredibly precient and clear view of our current climate.
The task at hand is clear and unambiguous for us now. These people will do anything that they please. We have to wedge the followers away from the authoritarian leaders. Splinter the warring factions within the conservative movement.
What I see as the gluing factor for these disparate movements that have coalesced around the Bush cult is fear. Neutralize the fear and address their more important focus of: "intolerance of ambiguity, need for certainty or structure in life, overreaction to threats, and a disposition to dominate others."
The media is the engine of this authoritarian movement.
Changing their status as authoritarian followers would be, I think, the best way to address this steady march toward insanity that we are currently on.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteNo doubt your recent experiences have colored your analysis to some degree, which is understandable, but I wonder if psychological theories can help us much here. It's not that the phenomenon you and Dean are describing doesn't have its roots in human psychology, that much seems plain enough. The problem is that the factors which turn a characteristic we all share into a corrosive and dangerous mass movement seem to be more complex than even a sophisticated psychological profile can explain, let alone combat.
When I was very young, I fell under the influence of German novelists and philosophers. I don't know why, exactly -- it may simply have been that, growing up in the rural South, I was looking for something that explained more to me than the simple shibboleths taught in the schools, or the obvious cant preached from the pulpits.
The writings of Thomas Mann, Heimato van Doderer, and later of Kant and Heidegger fascinated me, principally for their complexity and their seriousness. What they were saying seemed almost less important than the sophisticated way in which they said it.
By chance, I found myself in Germany -- this was less than twenty years after the war, mind you -- and as an eager young man, I was desperate to learn German and find out what made these marvelous Europeans tick.
Well, of course I soon discovered that the Germans I met on the street, or in the shops, weren't anything like Mozart or Immanuel Kant.
What shocked me as an American was how much they prized authority, and how willing they were to take on the role of social enforcer. If you tossed a candy wrapper in the street, you could invariably count on some good Bürger to shake a finger at you and mutter "Schweine" under his breath. Even baggage handlers in the Bahnhof wore elaborate uniforms with epaulets and peaked caps, and made a point of telling were you could and could not go.
I didn't know what to make of this, frankly. Being inexperienced in the ways of the world, I assumed it was some sort of echo of the Nazi blast wave that had leveled German culture before I was born. I'd never heard of the German passion for "Ordnung," which had been remarked on by other Europeans at least since the time of Friedrich der Grosse.
I guess my point here is that this willingness to worship authority, and to internalize it, doesn't really seem to have much to do with the hell that overtook Germany in the Thirties. On the contrary, I suspect that initally it acted to slow the Nazi march to power somewhat, since Nazis had absolutely no regard for any "Ordnung" but their own. Once they were in power, though, and their misdeeds bore the imprimatur of authority, it's likely, I suppose, that it would convince people to follow them more readily.
In any event, Glenn, as I said in a comment on the previous thread, I think we're better off defining this as an honest political conflict than a pathology. Which, I believe, comes under the heading of that old adage "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."
On a conceptual level, Glenn, how do you intend to mesh this argument about the fauxness of contemporary conservatism with your oft-repeated assertion that GWB has given us real conservatism, and that his failures are conservatism's failures?
ReplyDeleteI am not one who believes that "pure conservatism" is impossible to implement in practice, and there have been enough isolated instances of its principles at both the federal and state level (and even in other countires) for people to make meaningful assessments about whether it works, is a desirable way to govern, etc.
I don't think it much matters in political terms whether Bush is a pure conservative (he plainly is not), because he claimed conservatism as his, and conservatives, in turn, enthusiastically claimed him as theirs. Without the support of conservatives, there is no Bush presidency.
So whether he is pure to their ideals or not, he is theirs. That is true in reality, and even more so, how it will be perceived.
No doubt your recent experiences have colored your analysis to some degree, which is understandable, but I wonder if psychological theories can help us much here.
ReplyDeleteActually, that's not really the case. I wrote a post back in February about many of the dynamics which Dean discusses in his book, and made the point that I believed that Bush followers are motivated far more by psychological drives than political or ideological believes:
The blind faith placed in the Federal Government, and particularly in our Commander-in-Chief, by the contemporary "conservative" is the very opposite of all that which conservatism has stood for for the last four decades. The anti-government ethos espoused by Barry Goldwater and even Ronald Reagan is wholly unrecognizable in Bush followers, who – at least thus far – have discovered no limits on the powers that ought to be vested in George Bush to enable him to do good on behalf of all of us.
And in that regard, people like Michelle Malkin, John Hinderaker, Jonah Goldberg and Hugh Hewitt are not conservatives. They are authoritarian cultists. Their allegiance is not to any principles of government but to strong authority through a single leader. . . .
And the core emotions driving the Bush extremists are not hard to see. It is a driving rage and hatred – for liberals, for Muslims, for anyone who opposes George Bush. The rage and desire to destroy is palpable. . . .
The rhetoric of Bush followers is routinely comprised of these sorts of sentiments dressed up in political language – accusations that domestic political opponents are subversives and traitors, that they ought to be imprisoned and hung, that we ought to drop nuclear bombs on countries which have committed the crime of housing large Muslim populations. These are not political sentiments, and they’re certainly not conservatives sentiments, but instead, are psychological desires finding a venting ground in a political movement.
I don't write reviews of books (other than to write boo! or hooray!) because the words of the authors speak for themselves.
ReplyDeleteBut here's my own favorite sentence in John Dean's book which is from the Preface:
"Regrettably, empirical studies reveal, however, that authoritarians are frequently enemies of freedom, antidemocratic, antiequality, highly prejudiced, mean-spirited, power hungry, Machievellian, and amoral."
Authoritarianism is at the heart of everything. It was my hatred of authoritarianism that first attracted me to the writings of Ayn Rand.
She was the greatest anti-authoritarian thinker in history, light years ahead of even Glenn and John Dean and Paul Craig Roberts, although each of those is doing pretty good:)
(For an explanation of why AR was lightyears ahead of anyone else in denouncing authoritarianism, I can best sum that up by citing Henry Thoreau:
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.")
If you had asked AR to choose one word associated with her body of ideas she no doubt would have chosen the word "reason."
I, however, would ascribe the word anti-authoritarian to her philosophy. Of course I am one who thinks anyone truly rational must despise authoritarianism so maybe it's a question of emphasis.
"Reason" can be used to select which of two stocks is more likely to do well. But it's authoritarianism that has ruined the lives of hundreds of millions of human beings. It's a killer.
BTW, apparently there is almost nobody to be found on the Internet who attacks Ayn Rand using her own words. Her entire legacy is turned over to those who betrayed her for their own immoral reasons. Anyone interested in this subject should go to this link:The Vindication of Ayn Rand
There is something almost operatic in the telling: A great woman, a great mind, who conceived of a philosophy of love for and exalted worship of the best in the human mind, who defended with searing anger the right of all people to be free to discover happiness, being deceived by the one person she believed to be her equal, her lover and heir, who had lied to and manipulated her for his own gains while she was alive and vilified her name and distorted with calumny the image of her personality after her death.
And that was even before little Leonard Peikoff got his grimy hands on her legacy....
Why do I write about Ayn Rand on a thread containing Glenn's review of John Dean's book?
Here's why: Because I believe it is essential to "resist the beginnings" and to do so one must identify those beginnings and speak out against them.
When Glenn Greenwald, a person who has been "visible" for less than a year is already subjected to the type of attacks we have all recently witnessed (and a lesser person than John Dean might have been "ruined" by the falsehoods told against him which became almost a cottage industry in themselves) precisely because Glenn interferes with the "business as usual" of a powerful contingent of people (which unfortunately also includes the present government of the United States of America and the MSM, not the most insignificant of "enemies" for a person to have lined up against him) one has to ask himself how often this has happened in the past and what harm results from these types of co-ordinated attacks against people whose ideas threaten those in power.
If Glenn's partner were to ever (hypothetically) turn against him
and spread vicious, revisionist lies about him that were widely dissseminated by those who are threatened by Glenn's ideas, do you think it would be those lies which were likely to be Glenn's legacy or the actual words Glenn had written?
That's why I always respond on this thread to AR's critics "Please cite the words of Ayn Rand WRITTEN by her in her own articles with which you take issue".
A legitimate debate about those ideas could then follow, as opposed to the impossible task of debating a statement like "The Ayotallah Rand" or the words of a David Horowitz type mischaracterizing and twisting every one of AR's basic premises.
Keepers of the flame of truth should always step forth when those who would snuff out the words and ideas which matter most in this world are subject to a "sockpuppetry" (this word should live on forever as it is so brilliantly and concisely descriptive of the process used to annihilate ideas by utilizing smear campaigns against the holders of those ideas) attack designed to annihilate those ideas.
That's why.
Standing Eagle said...
ReplyDeleteOn a conceptual level, Glenn, how do you intend to mesh this argument about the fauxness of contemporary conservatism with your oft-repeated assertion that GWB has given us real conservatism, and that his failures are conservatism's failures?
The two ideas mesh because the folks who consider themselves to be 'real conservatives' gave these idiots the keys to the car... twice. There is nothing in 'real conservative' ideas that calls for foreign adventurism of the sort the Cheney-Bush cabal has given us in Iraq. There is nothing in 'real conservative' ideas that calls for torture and imprisonment without due process. There is nothing in 'real conservative' ideas that calls for the ballooning government deficits that will end up crippling our economy. There is nothing in 'real conservative' ideas that calls for unblinking support of Israel in the Middle East. But well after we went to Iraq the 'real conservatives' supported Bush overwhelmingly in the 2004 election leading to this disastrous second term. The 'real conservative' movement is why we are in the deep trouble we are in. 'Real conservatives' are about to attempt to walk away from this car wreck of an administration that they are responsible for. That's how these two ideas mesh.
shooter...Oh brother. I still don't know how you folks are going to get ahead by wilting under criticism and investing in the failure of a booming economy and feisty foreign policy.
ReplyDeleteIs it impolite at this juncture to observe that this person is a moron?
Glenn, thanks for you reply. I don't really disagree with you, at least with this part of what you say:
ReplyDeleteI wrote a post back in February about many of the dynamics which Dean discusses in his book, and made the point that I believed that Bush followers are motivated far more by psychological drives than political or ideological believes (sic)
There's absolutely no doubt about that, I think, and we should always keep it in mind when we oppose them. Still, to call political adverseries loonies at the outset, whether they are or not, doesn't seem to me to be a promising strategy.
My apologies for implying that you could be so easily swayed by deranged vandals. I know you are both principled and courageous. I meant it more as an expression of sympathy than as an impeachment of your theories.
"Which party wanted to retain the tyrant Hussein and continuously deplores the struggle for freedom in Iraq?"
ReplyDeleteThe smart party. There is no struggle for freedom in Iraq, you idiot. It's a free for all slaughter. Mostly for revenge and sttling scores, not freedom.
mainsailset said...
ReplyDeleteWhat continues to strike me about Dean's premise is that the cult that NeoCons have become are so driven by the mantra of crushing all opposition that they have lost all ability to reflect on themselves.
It should not strike you as odd. The fact of the matter is that conservatism by its very nature allows for nearly zero self-actualization of any sort. Conservatives are fundamentally incapable of looking inward. They are projectors. If something goes wrong it is someone else's fault. Further whatever principles they do possess are born out of fear of change. This is also why they are able to set aside their "differences" and coalesce into the voting block they always do.
The opposite is innately true of "liberals." Liberals are completely capable of looking inward and are willing to point the finger at themselves when their actions or policies turn out to be "bad." It is in their nature. This is also why "liberals" will never join together as one cohesive group. They are fundamentally free thinkers - willing to consider all points of view and embrace change when necessary. In the end they follow their principles.
Conservatives literally have no principles to speak of and Dean points that out in his book. "less government" and social and political progression is bad - hearkening back to the good old days is good. These are their principles. The modern conservative movement is built on sand. This allows them to change their "principles" to fit the day. America was built on liberal ideals and conservatives simply do not fit in. They have attempted to rewrite the liberal founding documents to suit their "principles." They have been trying to find their place for the past half century and BushCo is what they have come up with. Dean points all of this out. It is not difficult to understand. It just is.
The really nice thing about Glenn's narrative framework, buttressed by Dean's book, is the more Shooter speaks, the more we see how well Glenn and John have them dialed in.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good case in point about attitudes. Here you are pushing failure to make Bush look bad, in hopes of making yourself look better.
These are people who never could extricate themselves from those Chinese handcuffs. It's not a lack of intelligencem but something is missing in their ability to reason.
What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?
ReplyDeletePeter writes: The idea that the Bushniks are "conservatives" is rubbish. Glenn wrote a good post on this subject a while back. The Right has pulled off a critical semantic coup in fooling the MSM into calling them 'conservatives.' The term gives the wingnuts a sort of old-fashioned respectability and political legitimacy that they do not deserve.
ReplyDeleteJust so.
As Glenn wrote of John Dean, Dean was "[a]ttracted to the political conservatism of Barry Goldwater." Bush and the neoconservatives whose agenda he largely shares, are the antipode of Barry Goldwater or any kind of conservatism that libertarians could, and historically have, supported. I linked to and quoted from this two weeks ago, but it bears doing so again, because the Necon Godfather himself could not more emphatically demonstrate the truth of Dean's thesis.
Irving Kristol in an 8/03 issue of The Weekly Standard, my emphasis:
The Neoconservative Persuasion
From the August 25, 2003 issue: What it was, and what it is.
by Irving Kristol
08/25/2003, Volume 008, Issue 47
"[President Bush is] an engaging person, but I think for some reason he's been captured by the neoconservatives around him."
--Howard Dean, U.S. News & World Report, August 11, 2003
Neoconservatism is the first variant of American conservatism in the past century that is in the "American grain." Such Republican and conservative worthies as... Dwight Eisenhower, and Barry Goldwater are politely overlooked [by neocons - ed. Hypatia]....
[Neocons] are impatient with the Hayekian notion that we are on "the road to serfdom." Neocons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable. People have always preferred strong government to weak government, although they certainly have no liking for anything that smacks of overly intrusive government. Neocons feel at home in today's America to a degree that more traditional conservatives do not. …But it is only to a degree that neocons are comfortable in modern America. The steady decline in our democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives--though not with those libertarian conservatives who are conservative in economics but unmindful of the culture. The upshot is a quite unexpected alliance between neocons, who include a fair proportion of secular intellectuals, and religious traditionalists. They are united on issues concerning the quality of education, the relations of church and state, the regulation of pornography, and the like, all of which they regard as proper candidates for the government's attention. And since the Republican party now has a substantial base among the religious, this gives neocons a certain influence and even power.
Shooter... Can I presume you would have been an English sympathizer in days past, predicting American failure in 1779 or so?
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is intelligence. Only a simpleminded fool would try to draw parallels between our intervention in Iraq today and the American revolution?
Correction to my post above.
ReplyDeleteConservatives literally have no principles to speak of and Dean points that out in his book. "less government" and social and political progression is bad - hearkening back to the good old days is good.
Should read:
Conservatives literally have no principles to speak of and Dean points that out in his book."Less government" and hearkening back to the good old days is good. New ideas and social/political progression are to be feared.
I'm a little surprised that in all of this no mention is made of Leo Strauss. He preached a kind of extreme neo-Sophism. You are an excellent, powerful rhetoritician (sp?) until you prove to be disloyal. In City and Man, Strauss reargues Thrasymachus's position to "destroy" that of Socrates, and then declares Thraymachus useless because he allowed the appearance that Socrates had won. Underlying all of this was an extreme authoritarianism (i.e. we are sheep from which our owners harvest "juicy lamb chops") and militarism (i.e. the art of arts is war). Kings are like shepherds, but they only have power insofar as they tend the flock for the "owners". I guess it might be interesting to determine who the owners are for which George Bush and Dick Cheney are the shepherds. I don't think they're supposed to have a face, only dogs in the fight. Anyway, with David Brooks, Bill Kristol, Tony Snow, Brit Hume, etc., I have every reason to believe they believe they are practicing an art. Helping their friends and hurting the enemies of our owners. And lastly, Strauss doesn't seem concerned that powerful people make mistakes. It's not their excellence at any particular thing that earns them power and influence, but power and influence itself.
ReplyDeleteThere's absolutely no doubt about that, I think, and we should always keep it in mind when we oppose them. Still, to call political adverseries loonies at the outset, whether they are or not, doesn't seem to me to be a promising strategy.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this sentiment. Charles Krauthammer has, for instance, "diagnosed" both Howard Dean and Al Gore as being mentally ill, and both of them - along with all kinds of other Democrats -- are repeatedly referred to in that way by the Right.
I don't think the psychological motives which Dean is describing - or which I was describing back in February in my post - are signs of mental illness per se. All human beings have a natural fear of uncertainty, complexity, etc. All human beings have a psychological desire for protection, for a leader, etc.
But in some people, those drives are more pressing. And some political movements end up being geared towards satisfying them. Dean makes the point that the psychological attributes he's describing apply to those who have been attracted to authoritarian movements generally - on both the right and the left.
I don't think his argument amounts to a claim that Bush followers are mentally ill. That's certainly not how I understand it, or what I believe. But they are more driven by (and really manipulated by) psychological motives rather than political ones. I don't really think that's such a controversial statement.
My apologies for implying that you could be so easily swayed by deranged vandals. I know you are both principled and courageous. I meant it more as an expression of sympathy than as an impeachment of your theories.
I understood your sentiment and where it came from, and appreciate it.
3:11 PM
I don't agree with that sentiment. If you don't think advocating a nuclear first strike (for the reasons currently being given)isn't some kind of mental disorder, I'd have to wonder about you.
ReplyDeleteThe first chapter of Dean's book is available here.
ReplyDeleteOn Monica Crowley's lack of ethics, see my expose of her (and Rumsfeld) from a few days ago at Unbossed. It's crossposted with an update at Inconvenient News.
I showed that the DoD has been issuing guidelines or scripts to right-wing radio hosts in advance of interviews of Rumsfeld. It appears that Crowley was one who allowed Rumsfeld to dictate the issues that she would raise in her interview of him.
Astonishing that MSNBC has been promoting Crowley recently as a news anchor. It's hard to know what her ethics are, but they're certainly not the ethics of a journalist.
I think they are making a distinction between lack of conscience and mental illness.
ReplyDeleteEasy to conflate the two when looking from the outside, don't you think?
And, hasn't it become the popular way in which to deal with a person that does lack conscience?
ReplyDeletee.g. we say to ourselves or others that, "they seem to have no shame, they must be ill."
It makes it easier for a person of reason to live with people like that, to ascribe some sort of chemical imbalance to their actions vs. realizing that the person has no conscience. No moral compass, in the sense that they'll do anything ANYTHING if they think they can get away with it.
I don't agree with that sentiment. If you don't think advocating a nuclear first strike (for the reasons currently being given)isn't some kind of mental disorder, I'd have to wonder about you.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say that there were no Bush followers who are mentally ill. I said that the psychological motives which Dean is describing as motivating Bush followers does not per se denote mental illness.
And even if you're right that advocacy of a first-strike nuclear attack is necessarily the by-product of mental illness (as opposed to some extremely warped judgment), only a small subset of Bush followers advocate that.
Joe said...
ReplyDeleteI'm a little surprised that in all of this no mention is made of Leo Strauss
Because as one writer put it, Strauss was a "Sphinx Without a Secret". Some may claim to be surprised about the letter. I doubt that. Now that the secret is out, few on the right can remember who he is. As far as we know, he was never invited to the White House, like Jack Abramoff and Ken Lay.
The Letter
Scott Horton
Was Leo Strauss democracy’s best friend? In a letter written at the time of his emigration, Strauss describes his political principles - Fascist, Authoritarian, Imperialist
“We believe that failing to call a spade a spade is not scientific.”
— Leo Strauss, Thoughts on Machiavelli (1958)
Which party wanted to retain the tyrant Hussein and continuously deplores the struggle for freedom in Iraq?
ReplyDeleteWhich party wanted to retain the tyrant Bush and continuously deplores the struggle for freedom in the United States?
From the Dean excerpt:
ReplyDeleteIf George Bush had not selected Dick Cheney as his running mate in 2000, ...
Small nit. Dubya didn't choose Cheney (any mroe than he does anything else). Dubya picked Cheney to select a veep candidate (or someone picked Cheney to babysit Dubya). Then Cheney said he'd looked at all the 'best and the brightest', found the bestest and the brightestest, and that was him.... The rest is, sad to say, 'history'.
Cheers,
Michael...The USSR routinely used (quack) psychologists to diagnose political dissidents as 'mentally unstable' or insane. It was a convenient way to incarcerate and drug (incapacitate) 'undesirables'.
ReplyDeleteThat's what we've been told, and I can imagine it happened. The difference is that if it did happen, these people were not ill, not a danger to themselves or others. They were a danger to the state because they dared to voice criticism.
I think it's enough to tag such folks as 'inhuman' or 'barbaric' or 'lacking all empathy'.
And when one of them blows up a federal building again, you rethink that, won't you?
I think you could replace 'fascist' with 'autoritiarian conservative' and it would not significantly change it's meaning for most folks. But, there are a couple of really good reasons not to do just that.
ReplyDelete1. It's inflamatory, and the cacaphony in response to the use of the word by Dean would drown out the message.
2. Fascist, the word itself, has lost all meaning in the true sense because it has been over used by all sides of the ideological spectrum. Dave Neiwert has a lot to say about that.
Notice how shooter242 ended his post:
ReplyDeleteIf you can't handle Coulter, you sure can't handle Hezbollah.
Already buying into the argument that this Israeli conflict is "Our War".
It seems lately there is very little good news, but I'd like to point out that there is hope.
ReplyDeleteI'm making the assumption that Dean's book is most pertinent to the ~33% who still support GWB.
In my opinion, the sun is setting on (big C) Conservatism. It is more and more being identified with the Christian right, and there are many so-called "Conservatives" who are very uncomfortable with that.
Liberal used to be a good thing until it was mocked, derided and turned into a dirty word. The neocons will be the end of Conservatism. I know several fiscal, almost libertarian "Conservatives." They are disgusted with GWB.
I asked one, "Do you think conservatism is finished?" I used the example of "Liberal" being turned into a dirty word. He surprised me by admitting that he had been thinking recently about that very same thing.
He said, "When I think Conservative now, I think of Pat Robertson and the Christian fringe. Conservative doesn't mean the same thing anymore. I'm having a hard time thinking of myself as a Conservative."
Bingo! The problem is that these turned-off conservatives still get their news from Fox, Drudge, and NewsMax. So in their insulated world, Democrats are still worse than GWB.
P.S. to Glenn... I got your book and am reading it with a "thinking" Republican. I told him I was having a hard time understanding it, so I make him explain it to me. He gets to feel superior, and in order to explain it he has to read carefully. It seems to be opening his eyes. Thanks for the book and the blog. You are a national treasure!
A Cardboard Castle? An Inside History of the Warsaw Pact, 1955-1991
ReplyDeleteHighlights of the 726-page volume include highly confidential internal reports, military assessments, minutes of Warsaw Pact leadership meetings, and Politburo discussions on topics such as:
The shift beginning in the 1960s from defensive operations to plans to launch attacks deep into Western Europe. (Documents Nos. 16, 20a-b, 21)
Plans to initiate the use of nuclear weapons, ostensibly to preempt Western first-use. (Documents Nos. 81, 83)
Soviet expectations that conventional conflicts would go nuclear, and plans to fight and win such conflicts. (Documents Nos. 81, 83)
The deep resentment of alliance members, behind the façade of solidarity, of Soviet dominance and the unequal share of the military burden that was imposed on them. (Documents Nos. 4-6, 33-37, 47, 52)
East European views on the futility of plans for nuclear war and the realization that their countries, far more than the Soviet Union, would suffer the most devastating consequences of such a conflict. (Documents Nos. 22b, 38, 50, 52)
The "nuclear romanticism," primarily of Soviet planners, concerning the viability of unconventional warfare, including a memorable retort by the Polish leader that "no one should have the idea that in a nuclear war one could enjoy a cup of coffee in Paris in five or six days." (Documents Nos. 31, 115)
Ideologically warped notions of Warsaw Pact planners about the West's presumed propensity to initiate hostilities and the prospects for defeating it. (Documents Nos. 50, 73, 79, 81)
The impact of Chernobyl as a reality check for Soviet officials on the effects of nuclear weapons. (Document No. 115)
The pervasiveness and efficacy of East bloc spying on NATO, mainly by East Germans (Documents Nos. 11, 28, 80, 97, 109, 112)
Warsaw Pact shortcomings in resisting hostile military action, including difficulties in firing nuclear weapons. (Documents Nos. 44, 143)
Data on the often disputed East-West military balance, seen from the Soviet bloc side as much more favorable to the West than the West itself saw it, with the technological edge increasingly in Western favor since the time of the Carter administration (Documents Nos. 47, 79, 81, 82, 130, 131, 135, 136)
Apparently, Ronald Reagan and the conservatives were full of shit. What that makes the neocons is anybody's guess. It further appears the Soviets went down this road, and decided it was the wrong direction. How lucky we are to live in the west.
Fascist, the word itself, has lost all meaning in the true sense because it has been over used by all sides of the ideological spectrum.
Like anti-semite.
Shooter242:
ReplyDelete"Which party wanted to retain the tyrant Hussein and continuously deplores the struggle for freedom in Iraq?"
Wow, you're still a wanker and the worse of all, you don't realize that you're a wanker. It is kinda sad to see that. I guess John Dean is right about you people, utterly impervious to reality.
Let me ask you a few simple questions. Which Administration funded the tyrant Hussein and continuously aids him in the Iran-Iraq war? Guess who Rumsfeld offered his hand to for a handshake? And guess who funded and taught the terrorists, Al Qaeda, how to make a bomb and such?
Your second question: "And which party wishes to take more money from those that earn it, to send to the "higher classes" in Washington DC?"
Wow, that's quite easy to answer. It's the the conservatives. You really need to research the hardass facts instead of listening to O'Reilly and his like, using their talking points and think for yourself. It's not that hard.
Those questions you posed, the facts you ignored, I can see why Bush and his Authoritarian cultists start to lose the voters and possibly, their powers too. Unlike you and the Authoritarian cultists, Buckley admitted that Bush is not a conservative in any way. Several friends of mine used to support Bush/conservatism blindly--like you--but no longer. Thanks to the America-hating wackos on the Right, they woke up. Even some Republicans are attempting to distance themsleves from the Bush Administration and assure the voters that they don't agree entirely with Bush. That says all, really.
Again, John Dean is right about you people. Completely impervious to facts, reality, scientific studies, etc.
Anonymous (3:09 PM): "Is it impolite at this juncture to observe that this person is a moron?"
No. Actually, he already knows that he's a moron (or a wanker) and he don't mind at all so go ahead and say it aloud if you'd like to.
John Dean is a completely unprincipled scoundrel and traitor who sold out his president and country to save his worthless skin. He is completely lacking in character, only worthy of scorn and derision. Not content with wrecking one Presidency and sending the country into chaos and defeat in Vietnam, he is now trying for an encore. This time he will not succeed. At this point the only thing he could do to rehabilitate himself is to put a bullet through his treachorous skull. Hopefully he will be persuaded this is the right course of action.
ReplyDeletedipshit in reality...: Again, John Dean is right about you people. Completely impervious to facts, reality, scientific studies, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf this is Dean's conclusion, he is wrong. What the Milgram studies showed, as well as the other studies on authoritarianism is that people give up their moral decision-making to authority figures. That is what makes them dangerous. They would rather listen to someone with a white coat on and electrocute someone to death than make the decision to follow their own conscience.
Anonymous (4:50 PM):
ReplyDelete"John Dean is a completely unprincipled scoundrel and traitor who sold out his president and country to save his worthless skin. He is completely lacking in character, only worthy of scorn and derision. Not content with wrecking one Presidency and sending the country into chaos and defeat in Vietnam, he is now trying for an encore. This time he will not succeed. At this point the only thing he could do to rehabilitate himself is to put a bullet through his treachorous skull. Hopefully he will be persuaded this is the right course of action."
It's always nice to know that conservatives/authoritarian cultists are still advocating the murder of Americans.
the cynic librarian, no that's not only thing Dean concluded. There is more than that in Dean's conclusion (in his book, that is). But I agree with your point regardless.
Glenn wrote These are not political sentiments, and they’re certainly not conservatives sentiments, but instead, are psychological desires finding a venting ground in a political movement.
ReplyDeleteTruer words were never written.
To quote Devo:
ReplyDelete"Freedom from choice
Is what you want!
Freedom of choice
Is what you've got!"
Most people happily defer decision making to perceived "superiors," managers, bosses, "experts," etc. People who will assert what is right, thus saving the average shmoe from the onerous task of having to make that consideration for him or herself. In the Milgrom study, people did acknowledge discomfort--as they HAD been taught not to hurt people--but they continued to act as directed...with few exceptions.
We shouldn't flatter ourselves; as the experimenters concluded,those who will act on their own conscience, who will refuse orders, are in the minority. Most people will follow orders, even those which are abhorrent to them. We are social animals, and any society will instill the idea of hierarchy into its members; even in this alleged "land of the free," most of us simply want freedom to buy what we want and to live where we choose. When told by authority figures that so-and-so tyrant or such-and-such country is a menace, Americans will buy it. Like grungier Germans, we still respect authority, to the point of slavish devotion.
WT: As I recall you hadn't joined this blog community yet when the F Scale test, designed to "construct an instrument that would yield an estimate of fascist receptivity at the personality level." appeared here in a link by a commenter. For you and others who missed it and would like to take it just for fun, here it is.
ReplyDeleteto quote Orwell:
ReplyDeleteThe nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
According the F Scale, I'm a "whining rotter."
ReplyDeletefor some profound insight on the "social science" front, see Spiral Dynamics.
ReplyDeletefor the real rosetta stone, see the work of Ken Wilber.
thank you John Dean and Glenn for telling it like it is!
A 2,800 word "book review."
ReplyDeleteGreenwald should get himself an editor.
2,800 words, by the standards of many journals of criticism, is barely more than a press release. Ever read the NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS?
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you want? A simple thumbs up/thumbs down?
The only reason to read Ken Wilber would be if one enjoys reading the work of an individual who truly is insane, if insane means to be devoid of reason or the capacity for same.
ReplyDeletePlease. Do not mention Ken Wilber in such close proximity to a sentence which contains the names of Glenn Greenwald and John Dean.
One way he could cut down on the length of his interminable prose would be to trust his audience to get the point after even one or two repetitions of his points. For instance, here is a list of but three of his favorite terms or phrases:
ReplyDeletetrue radicalism… as radical… too radical… radical behavior… is radical… are radical
its extremism… level of extremism… extremist… as extremist…
right-wing authoritarian… right-wing smear techniques… right-wing ideologues… both right-wing follower… Christian right… right-wing groups… right-wing media… right-wingers… smear sewers of the right wing… glory-seeking right-wing… right-wing media… religious right… Right-wing talk radio…
Glenn has enough inventory there for about three book reviews, which any competent editor would have pointed out.
Perhaps Glenn feels that his herd needs copious quantities of red meat to survive. Or perhaps Brazil is simply too fecund in all of its delights to permit the exercise of even the smallest amount of moderation. In either case, the posts would be better if they were briefer.
Yes, Glenn, why do you use so many words?
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you be more like Glenn Reynolds? He recently reviewed a book.
"I read the book, and I liked it."
See how it's done? And we learned so much from that review too.
Heh.
Perhaps Glenn feels that his herd needs copious quantities of red meat to survive. Or perhaps Brazil is simply too fecund in all of its delights to permit the exercise of even the smallest amount of moderation. In either case, the posts would be better if they were briefer.
ReplyDeleteAnd your metaphor would have been better if your herd wasn't carnivorous, which any competent editor would have pointed out.
Thanks for the review. But you know, this has got me to wondering if politics is at a very deep level determined by DNA.
ReplyDeleteWe are hierarchial animals just like our chimp cousins. Across any given population maybe the genetic urge toward heirarchy is a contiumun. Maybe democracy came about in part because the human population in those areas were less inclined to strict heirarchies and could live as loose clans.
Maybe in some ways the New World self selected for humans with less strong heirarchy genes as many came here to avoid the rigid class systems in Europe. The gene pool was being stacked with those who could deal with the free flow of democarcy and its birth in the New World with the Revolution.
To me, republicans act like male chimps living under the thumb of a very dominate alpha male. It may not even bee a matter of having a supermale, but their DNA pushing them toward absolute obedience to the heirarchy.
Robert1014 said...
ReplyDeleteAccording the F Scale, I'm a "whining rotter."
5:33 PM
Robert, me too. A "whining rotter", am I.
Should the hard work of many Democrats come to fruition this Fall I would imagine that the rhetoric we think is shrill now will become more like a sonic boom. And if that is the case, and 2008 by some miracle puts a Dem administration into the WH, the fury will have morphed into something, if not reined in that is powerfully deadly. Personlly, that is a good reason to opt out for Hillary in '08. She may have some fine credentials but her very presence will block anything getting done in her tenure with the Congress.
ReplyDelete"Because as one writer put it, Strauss was a 'Sphinx Without a Secret'. Some may claim to be surprised about the letter. I doubt that. Now that the secret is out, few on the right can remember who he is."
ReplyDeleteOf course. If we're waiting on sophists to admit to one thing or another, we're idiots. Anyway, it's annoying to watch people go round and round parsing hairs about conservatism or its fauxness without discussing the intellectual pedigree (disowned or not--how stupid!) of the people we're complaining about. Who cares whether you're surprised about it or not? Who cares whether it's a secret or not? It's not a conspiracy. It's a very mundane and straightforward fact. Leo Strauss was a facist. But we already have anti-bodies for that. But on top of that he advocated extreme sophism. And people are sitting around trying to understand people by interpreting the smoke they're blowing or catching them in inconsistencies or psychoanalyzing them. It seems to be that they simply will not give in no matter what you point out, nor will they admit to the obvious, because they are convinced of the fact that they are working for someone with crushing power. They want them to have crushing power. Or they are convinced they have it.
The Major said...
ReplyDeleteGreat so your using John Dean a convicted felon as your go to guy on what's right and wrong ...
Satire or not, a pretty good condensation of what the book is all about.
So why won't the msm tell us about that or Glenn either.
ReplyDeleteMaybe because Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It would make as much sense to invade Mexico.
(Damn! With the hyped-up illegal immigration 'crisis,' I shouldn't be putting ideas in anyone's head. Not to mention that there's an awful lot of oil in Mexico.)
shooter242: Those are at least two good reasons why Bush retains his support while the left stews in failure.
ReplyDeleteI call those bold words for a one-eyed fat man. (Robert Duval to John Wayne in True Grit.)
The issue remains to be tried. And don't worry. If if turns out to be your man trapped under the saddle instead of ours, we won't be so crass as to remind you of your bravado here.
Just to establish my street cred:
ReplyDeleteAccording the F Scale, I am "a true American."
Whew!! For a while there I was getting worried.
Haven't read Dean yet, but I am familiar with the social sciences being mentioned, and am definitely interested in what he has to say. In a curious way, I am reminded of Ellsberg - someone who went in and participated for a long time within the machinery that was the establishment of the time, and finally got so disgusted with the lying and manipulation that his conscience finally kicked in - like the theories he discusses, only certain people seem to have some type of moral or ethical trigger.
EWO: please,please please stop being so goddamm holier than thou about the Ayn Rand shit. She was NOT "...the greatest anti-authoritarian thinker in history..." and your dogmatic insistence on continuing to attempt to conflate Glenn's message with hers is kind of un-hinged, itself. Glenn can, and does, state his own message very well, and is perfectly capable and happy to quote those passages from the works of others which he feels best explicate his points when it seems appropriate to do so. For you to continually reference a thinker whom Glenn has rarely, if ever, mentioned, is just freaking annoying. Very few people share your reverence for Ms. Rand. get the hell over it. You are somewhat, in your own kind of weird way, authoritarian and extremist yourself - Glenn and Ayn Rand, and maybe Pope or some other poets are the authority figures you cloak yourself in to get all warm and fuzzy at night, and anyone who says anything to disrupt the dogma is (1)attacking you, and (b)irrational, by definition, for failing to see the reasoning of "the greatest anti-authoritarian thinker in history."
I am not trying to attack you, by the way, just trying to offer some completely unsolicited advice. For you to come in here and offer a completely unwarranted defense of Ayn Rand (i don't think anyone else had even mentioned her today) and then proceed to try and ground down someone else for mentioning Ken Wilber is just, well, ridiculous. Kind of like me trying to point it out without being asked.
nick:
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I don't feel even the tiniest bit of reverence for Ayn Rand, but since the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend (within limits, to be sure) I'm willing to give EWO a pass here.
Mr Greenwald,
ReplyDeleteI ask you yet again why you have not explained your lying, vis a vis the sock puppetry foolishness? You really want to turn centrists like me to your point of view, but it's not going to happen until you regain your integrity.
Sincerely,
James W. Cooper (Alear)
Glenn - I hesitated to read this entry before because I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the era of Nixonites. However I made the effort and was rewarded.
ReplyDeleteI am sarry to see the trolls are still shitting all over you for presenting the truth they don't want to hear. I think what you are doing is closer to a sacred thing than any of the losers who resent you will ever be able to do…
Many of us greatly appreciate your knowledge, experience, and insight. I feel privileged to get that kind of adult, intelligent commentary without having to pay for it.
I’ve read you for a long time; know you’ve been receiving more and more personal attacks. That’s rough. I, and many others, hope you will continue to do good work and help our sorry populace (even one mind changed is better than the status quo…) understand just how close to the edge we really are.
You sir are a true American, and a person to admire. Thanks for the privilege of sharing your mind…
James W. Cooper (a/k/a "Azzholer"):
ReplyDeleteMr Greenwald,
I ask you yet again why you have not explained your lying, vis a vis the sock puppetry foolishness? You really want to turn centrists like me to your point of view, but it's not going to happen until you regain your integrity.
Sincerely,
James W. Cooper (Alear)
You're not a "centrist". You're another RW foamer azo come over from the Pajama Party boys. Tell you what, why don't you let Jeff Goldstein -- ummm, "do his thing" to your face -- and maybe you won't be so unrequited and wouldn't bother us folks around here?
You know, if you actually read Glenn's blog, you'd be well aware by now of the simple fact that it's a logical fallacy to dismiss an argument because of the (alleged) personal characteristics of the proponent (extra gredit if you can name the fallacy, but I suspect I'll keep my dime). Yet, you seem fixated on something for some reason, and claim to be ready to dismiss Glenn's atricles because of that. You wouldn't be a liar now, would you?
Now FOAD. 'Kay?
Cheers,
"The Major" sez:
ReplyDeleteSince when do convicted felon's know what's right and wrong.
Which is precisely why the Dubya maladministration has been providing placements services, and rehiring the ones from the Reagan/Bush I years....
Cheers,
Let's take a look at what Glenn's favorite felon with absolutely no training as an historian or a political scientist has to offer as "scientific evidence" (sic) concerning the so called "authoritarianism" of the current conservative majority:
ReplyDeleteDepending on the president (or, in the case of the current administration, the vice president), varying degrees of dissent are tolerated in the decision-making process, but once policy is set, political appointees are expected to carry it out or leave. This is what happens within an authoritarian government.
We are not starting off well here at all. Nearly all management consists of discussion followed by a decision which subordinates are expected to follow.
To call this "authoritarianism" is insane. EVERY administration followed this model. The alternative of subordinates doing anything they want is insubordination leading to anarchy.
Let us get our definitions straight.
Authoritarianism in the political sense is dictatorial decision making from the top without discussion with the cost of dissent being punitive measures such as economic deprivation, prison, torture or death.
For example, when Jack Goldsmith (now on the faculty of Harvard Law School) disagreed with the authoritarian policies being issued by the White House—policies calling for the use of torture and directing the National Security Agency to violate the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act by not seeking warrants for electronic surveillance of Americans—he became a marked man. Goldsmith left the Justice Department, as have other high-level attorneys who wanted no part of the administration’s disregard for the rule of law.
This employee quit his job because he disagreed with the policy of his employer. So what? There are hundreds of thousands of employee who do this every year in the US and many have done so under every Administration to date.
While Dean has become a born again Christian, I doubt this qualifies as the onset of a fascist End Times.
As Bush proceeds with his second term, we have had some six years to observe him. It is abundantly clear that he is a mental lightweight with a strong right-wing authoritarian personality, with some troubling politics and policies social dominance tendencies as well...
This passage is very revealing of a leftist hatchet job.
Authoritarianism is equated with conservative politics. Given that the vast majority of people who suffered under authoritarian regimes over the past century were victims of socialism, this claims is amusing.
I am also having a hard time picturing glad handing and joking George Bush as someone with archetypical "social dominance" issues. Nixon and Clinton were much tougher operatives who made opponents pay for crossing them.
(J)ournalist-turned-blogger Joshua Marshall has a remarkable ability to be among the first to spot developments in Washington, as he did in identifying the authoritarianism of the Bush administration...
A journalist / blogger? Is this some of the "science" (sic) which you claim support Dean's diatribe? I guess that makes you and I fully credentialed scientists...
Please.
However, this is very revealing that Dean intends this drivel to target the fevered blog audience.
Among the most troubling of the authoritarian and radical tactics being employed by Bush and Cheney are their politics of fear...Frightening Americans, nonetheless, has become a standard ploy for Bush, Cheney, and their surrogates. They add a fear factor to every course of action they pursue, whether it is their radical foreign policy of preemptive war, their call for tax cuts, their desire to privatize social security, or their implementation of a radical new health care scheme.
Dean is a frigging loon!
Glenn, enlighten us all. Exactly how did Bush use "fear mongering" to sell tax cuts, social security accounts and the medicare prescription drug program? A politician buying votes is the opposite of "fear mongering."
This fearmongering began with the administration’s political exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy, when it made the fight against terrorists the centerpiece of its presidency. Bush and Cheney launched America’s first preemptive war by claiming it necessary to the fight against terrorism. . . .
Mr. Bush did not invent 9/11.
Nor did Bush use "fear" of the enemy which had just attacked us to rally the citizenry any more than Monroe did during the War of 1812, Lincoln did during the Civil War, Wilson did during WWI and FDR did during WWII.
Every President who presided over an enemy attack on the United States or against an ally has used that attack to rally the populace to wage war against that enemy.
“Elitists and dictators have used fear tactics to control their constituencies since the beginning of time,” noted scholar R. D. Davis in “Debunking the Big Lie,” in National Minority Politics (November 30, 1995).
What big lie?
Glenn, your city was attacked twice, our capital once and our troops and civilians around the world several times by the enemy before we finally went to war.
Heavy majorities of the people and their representatives of both parties supported war in Afghanistan and then Iraq.
As to his comparisons with prior presidents or presidential candidates, please point out to all of us how Bush used "fear" in his speeches calling for military intervention against Iraq in 2002 where Kerry did not in 2002 or Clinton and Gore did not in 1998? They all used the same evidence to make the same identical speeches.
The only people who claim that both of our parties are run by fascists are communists and greens.
Chris Ney and Kelly Creedon, authors with expertise on Latin American politics, wrote that “fear won the election” in El Salvador in 2004, noting, “The rhetoric and tactics mirror those employed by other Latin American right-wing parties, including that of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.”
There is no analogy whatsoever between these cases and ours. Those Latin elections concerned campaigns between conservative parties and leftists who had previously waged war in the government. Under such circumstances, pointing out the past treason of the opposite party is a perfectly legitimate campaign issue. The GOP did it to the Donkeys for a generation after the Civil War.
In sum, Dean claims that any President which expects his orders to be followed by his subordinates or rallys the nation to war against an enemy after a several attacks on our nation is an "authoritarian."
All this proves is that Dean is either a loon or he is writing for loons with no concept of history or reality. Or both.
This is the functional and long winded equivalent of the usual leftist slur of calling conservatives "nazis."
:::yawn:::
In direct answer to your question, our own war started in 1775, leading eventually to a ratified Constitution in modern form in 1989, 14 years. So far the Iraqis have had 3 years.
ReplyDeleteHey Anonymous, are you too stupid to realize that we're the Redcoats this time?
When your nationis the murderous, unwanted invader and occupier, it changes the meaning of the comparison a bit, don't you think?
Glenn:
ReplyDeletethanks for your review. I bought the book on a business trip to chicago and read it in two days...it should be required reading for all americans...dean is right on the money and he should know...thanks for you fantastic insight also...
From Bart at 9:11pm:
ReplyDeleteThis passage is very revealing of a leftist hatchet job.
You have yet to explain how this portrayal is in any way a 'hatchet job' rather than a clear-headed explanation of reality.
Dean is a frigging loon!
ReplyDeleteBart should know one when he sees one. Same goes for Dean since he freely admits he was one at one time.
Glenn, enlighten us all. Exactly how did Bush use "fear mongering" to sell tax cuts, social security accounts and the medicare prescription drug program? A politician buying votes is the opposite of "fear mongering."
1935: Social security will break small business, become a huge tax burden on our citizens, and bankrupt our country!
1944: The G.I. Bill will break small business, become a huge tax burden on our citizens, and bankrupt our country!
1965: Medicare will break small business, become a huge tax burden on our citizens, and bankrupt our country!
1994: Health care will break small business, become a huge tax burden on our citizens, and bankrupt our country!
Conrad (editorial cartoon), July 1994
Mr. Bush did not invent 9/11.
If it hadn't happened, he would've invented it. And whether he did or not is irrelevant. perception is everything in politics, and the prevailing perception is that something about is "fishy". Americans just love their conspiracy theories, commies under every bed, alien abductions, Bart's favorite, anal probes...
And that is to say nothing of the measures that would be urged, and almost certainly imposed, in the event of another terrorist attack on U.S. soil or in the increasingly likely event that our limited war in Iraq expands into the Epic War of Civilizations which so many of them crave.
ReplyDeleteThis is the reason I recently invested in a good, solid, assault rifle (changing my long-held position against such weapons). Try and "impose" the dictatorial shit they truly seek to impose and I will make life real shitty right here. Me and many, many like me.
I'll give up my privacy and ANY of my inalienable rights and liberties over their dead bodies.
I'm military. ANY move to stamp out the Constitution and Bill of Rights runs flat into my military officer oath. Run counter to my oath at your own peril because I take it very seriously.
These nutbags and asshats are playing with a fire they cannot control. They're too stupid to manage even its fringes, let alone the whole big take down.
Give me liberty or give me death. I don't give a flying f*ck what terrorist act is committed or what sort of war they drag us into. The Constitution ALWAYS and above all else. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Every President who presided over an enemy attack on the United States or against an ally has used that attack to rally the populace to wage war against that enemy.
ReplyDeleteYou're talking about Iraq, I take it? The enemy who attacked us on 9/11?
Um, wait...
which pretty much makes my point that if it took us 14 years to get it together, maybe 3 for the Iraqis is asking a lot.
ReplyDeleteThis is how scam artists work the "sweepstakes scam" on the elderly. Send in another check, the Grand Prize is all yours, we just have to pay the taxes!
These pseudo-conservatives are no different than evangelists. Give now and receive 10 fold from the almighty!
It is a good thing that so many people are so gullible.
With all the trolls here (stuck all over like a bunch of parasites - with as much aim and ambition in mind...), there must be a lot of bags of cheetos that aren't getting eaten, and a lot of p*rn sites that aren’t getting viewed. Why this could be harming the Fatherland's economy...! (And what about all the white sheets - those eyeholes aren’t gonna cut themselves…)
ReplyDeleteYou trolls need to calm down. Maybe take in a N*SCAR race, or watch some Pro Wrestling, or a rodeo or something. Maybe head on down to the QuikeeMart (in your mom’s car) and get yourself a 24-pack of the good stuff. You know, get the B*dweiser, not the B*d Light! Get a big ol’ bag of pork rinds, some Sl*m Jims, wander back home, sit in a comfy chair (watch out for that spring stikin’ out…). Light up a C*mel and relax.
Let the satisfying vibes of authoritarian cult membership sink in and satisfy your bones. You’ve earned it! Hell, there might be a showing of Red Dawn coming on Sp*ke or somethin’. I know it’s hot outside, but you can crank up the swamp cooler to take the edge off…
If you’re lucky, you’ll fall asleep and have a dirty dream about Ann Coulter…!
(of course, you better not let Falwell, Robertson, Wildmon, or the most recent members of the SCOTUS find out…)
I would hope that at some point, Glenn, who refuses to respond to Bart for good reason, starts removing his comments. Several other commenters have complained about "wordiness" and Bart never makes a point, and if he does by accident, it's hardly worth reading.
ReplyDeleteAlear said...
ReplyDeleteMr Greenwald,
I ask you yet again why you have not explained your lying, vis a vis the sock puppetry foolishness? You really want to turn centrists like me to your point of view, but it's not going to happen until you regain your integrity.
Sincerely,
James W. Cooper (Alear)
Alear, we liberals are desperately interested in getting our message across to you, but unfortunately you are too distracted by sucking Ace of Spades' cock to listen.
Alear (obviously) is a concern troll who spends most of his time jacking off at sites like Ace of Spades, Protein Wisdom, etc. In other words, he is a hard-core, right-wing moron. Alear, I believe a bowl of dicks is calling your name this bery minute...
Arne said this:
ReplyDelete"simple fact that it's a logical fallacy to dismiss an argument because of the (alleged) personal characteristics of the proponent (extra gredit if you can name the fallacy..."
Among other things, I know that you're implying I'm throwing out a red herring.
My point is, if Mr Greenwald wishes to engage his audience, it would be best if he earned and maintained a certain integrity.
PS The following are uncalled for, if we're to debate:
"You're not a "centrist". You're another RW foamer azo come over from the Pajama Party boys.
-- Statement with zero evidence. Fallacy on Arne's part (also, Argumentum ad Populum).
"Jeff Goldstein -- ummm, "do his thing" to your face
-- What's with you people and Jeff G?
"... bother us folks around here?"
-- Naah, it's mildly entertaining.
"Yet, you seem fixated on something for some reason, and claim to be ready to dismiss Glenn's atricles because of that."
-- I dismiss Gleen's atricles because I call shenanigans on them. No "claim" here. I dismiss his musings. End of part one.
"You wouldn't be a liar now, would you?"
-- No, I'm not. Why would you imply that? Read what I wrote again.
"Cheers"
-- You did not mean anything close to cheers with your sign off. It's clear from your FOAD directly above that you wish me anything but Cheers.
I wish you well, Arne, I really do. It's Greenwald that needs attention.
Alear... My point is, if Mr Greenwald wishes to engage his audience, it would be best if he earned and maintained a certain integrity.
ReplyDeleteYou are not his target audience. Glenn writes about the smaller minority of people like you for his much larger target audience. So if you understand his narrative, debating you is not important, nor is it a goal. You are not interested in honest debate. Neutralizing you and your ability to poison the national debate is the goal.
PS The following are uncalled for, if we're to debate:...
See above.
Neutralizing you and your ability to poison the national debate is the goal.
ReplyDeleteP.S. It's working.
-- I dismiss Gleen's atricles because I call shenanigans on them. No "claim" here. I dismiss his musings.
ReplyDeleteIf this is so, could you point me to a thread dated before last week where you called Glenn on a so-called shenanigan? Just one will do.
Thanks.
bart:
ReplyDeleteWhile I personally wouldn't accuse anyone in the Bush administration of being an authoritarian cultist, I think it's pretty clear that there's more Hobbes than Hume in Cheney's and Bolton's approach to foreign relations, and an obvious contempt in the lot of them for the opinions of people who aren't players, which includes pretty much all of us here.
As for Bush, he's simply out of his depth, and slow-witted enough not to be aware of it. Which, as has been noted here and elsewhere, makes him vulnerable to being manipulated by people who pose as sycophants. Unfortunately, he also seems to be petulant, which can make him dangerous to small middle eastern countries when he's crossed.
None of this is unique to Bush, of course. Nixon was equally petulant, but a lot smarter, and he had no sense of entitlement at all, in fact, quite the opposite, which made him dangerous in another way.
As for supporters of the Administration, it seems to me that the warmongers among them -- the Kristols, the Podhoretzes, Perle, Wolfowitz, et al., simply have their own agenda, and want what they want (American/Israeli hegemony in the Middle East) badly enough to lie about almost everything.
The true authoritarian cultists, and small-minded angry people -- such as the ones who come here virtually every night to sockpuppet Glenn -- are pitiful, but Karl Rove has discovered, like Goebbels, that they have their uses. It doesn't speak well for him that he thinks that this is just politics, but what the hell. Immoral doesn't necessarily mean crazy.
I seem to be ending every comment here with a proverb these days, which is probably more revealing than I'd like about how concerned I am about the rudderless nature of our statecraft these days, but here's another one. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I would hope that at some point, Glenn, who refuses to respond to Bart for good reason, starts removing his comments.
ReplyDeleteI like the fact that Glenn is pretty hands off of the comments. Hell he lets me comment, if I had a blog I wouldn't let me post on it:)
Since this authoritarian cultism is the preeminent threat to liberal government, short of war what can be done to curtail, if not defeat this political movement? Are there any smaller scale, historical examples to gleen from? (besides that neat-o tv movie The Wave, I mean)
ReplyDeleteI ask because I have a sinking feeling in my gut that like bacteria authoritarianism is "evolving". By refusing to be cornered via labelling a distinct and definitive enemy it's becoming more resilient compared to earlier, more strident and therefore more susceptible forms. We shouldn't forget it took an against-all-odds liberal holdout in Britain and a better-late-than-never towering liberal force in America to defeat the last bout.
Not to discount Glenn's and others work, but can this be contained from within? Or do we just wait for say, India, to play America's part next time 'round?
Blue period...I like the fact that Glenn is pretty hands off of the comments. Hell he lets me comment, if I had a blog I wouldn't let me post on it:)
ReplyDeleteBart does with verbiage and the illogical what dipshit did with links to animations of defecation and the scatological. Glenn removes Dipshit's comments forthwith. Bart's worn out his welcome.
HWSNBN yawns at the end of a long couple pages of dreck; if it's soooo damn boring, you'd think the eedjit would just stop reading, but nooooooo:
ReplyDeleteLet's take a look at what Glenn's favorite felon with absolutely no training as an historian or a political scientist has to offer as "scientific evidence" (sic) concerning the so called "authoritarianism" of the current conservative majority:
Oh. So the "criminal prosecutor" is now a scientists as well. My, such a talented guy. You'd think someone would hire him to do solmething better than plead down DUIs....
[Dean]: Depending on the president (or, in the case of the current administration, the vice president), varying degrees of dissent are tolerated in the decision-making process, but once policy is set, political appointees are expected to carry it out or leave. This is what happens within an authoritarian government.
We are not starting off well here at all. Nearly all management consists of discussion followed by a decision which subordinates are expected to follow.
HWSNBN is hard of reading. That's what Dean said: "...once policy is set, political appointees are expected to carry it out or leave." Dean did remark that the extent of the dissent tolerated varied by president. This maladministration is remarkable not only for the absolute intolerance for dissent, but also to the extent they go out of their way to try and destroy those who do dare to dissent even after they're gone.
To call this "authoritarianism" is insane. EVERY administration followed this model. The alternative of subordinates doing anything they want is insubordination leading to anarchy.
Fallacy of bifurcation. Assumes that the two extremes are the only possible choices, which is simply not true. But what does that have to do with the price of tea in Sri Lanka?
Let us get our definitions straight.
Authoritarianism in the political sense is dictatorial decision making from the top without discussion with the cost of dissent being punitive measures such as economic deprivation, prison, torture or death.
Bingo. Crowley, Wilson, Clarke, O'Neil, a bunch of generals and others might very well agree with that. Or the JAGs in Guantanamo, the NSA lawyers, the FISA judge, etc.....
[Dean]: For example, when Jack Goldsmith (now on the faculty of Harvard Law School) disagreed with the authoritarian policies being issued by the White House—policies calling for the use of torture and directing the National Security Agency to violate the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act by not seeking warrants for electronic surveillance of Americans—he became a marked man. Goldsmith left the Justice Department, as have other high-level attorneys who wanted no part of the administration’s disregard for the rule of law.
This employee quit his job because he disagreed with the policy of his employer. So what? There are hundreds of thousands of employee who do this every year in the US and many have done so under every Administration to date.
Hate to say it, but we haven't had this many leave because if ethics reasons in quite a while.
While Dean has become a born again Christian, I doubt this qualifies as the onset of a fascist End Times.
Huh?!?!?
Maybe HWSNBN is thinking of Chuck Colson. Who knows? And who knows what point HWSNBN was trying to covey here....
[Dean]: As Bush proceeds with his second term, we have had some six years to observe him. It is abundantly clear that he is a mental lightweight with a strong right-wing authoritarian personality, with some troubling politics and policies social dominance tendencies as well...
This passage is very revealing of a leftist hatchet job.
Authoritarianism is equated with conservative politics....
Actually, HWSNBN might unintentionally have stumbled across something: Dean's primary thesis is about the maladministration's conservatism, and he's remarking on the authoritarian brand of conservatism marketed by Dubya and company. You know, like the title says: "Conservatives Without Conscience"?
... Given that the vast majority of people who suffered under authoritarian regimes over the past century were victims of socialism, this claims is amusing.
The "not as bad as Hitle ... umm, ooops, Stalin" defence, eh? This tu quoque is par for the course for HWSNBN: Don't address the criticism itself, instead wail "others did it tooooo........"
I am also having a hard time picturing glad handing and joking George Bush as someone with archetypical "social dominance" issues....
HWSNBN is obviously not a woman. Every woman I know was aghast at Dubya's stoopidity with Merkel. What was he thinking?.... Oh yeah, forgot: He wasn't. Nevermind.
But that's just part of it. The faux Texas cowboy act, the codpiece, the rubs on the head, the belittling nicknames, the thin skin and insecurity, the "I'm the Decider; I decide things" crapola, the list goes on and on....
Nixon and Clinton were much tougher operatives who made opponents pay for crossing them.
One word: "Plame"
But I'm a bit curious as to who Clinton made "pay" for crossing him. Maybe HWSNBN's alluding to the 54 (or was it 57; hard to keep up) "hits" detailed in the Clinton Body Count....
[Dean]: (J)ournalist-turned-blogger Joshua Marshall has a remarkable ability to be among the first to spot developments in Washington, as he did in identifying the authoritarianism of the Bush administration...
A journalist / blogger? Is this some of the "science" (sic) which you claim support Dean's diatribe?
No. But HWSNBN is slow of reading, so perhaps you can forgive him.
I guess that makes you and I fully credentialed scientists...
Nope. But I can guarantee HWSNBN that I have infinitely many more papers published in peer-reviewed scientific journals than he has.
Please.
... stop. Yes.
However, this is very revealing that Dean intends this drivel to target the fevered blog audience.
HWSNBN is just adding more scientific evidence for the fact that he's signifiicantly hard of reading. Dean didn't say that, and I doubt he intended it. In any case, that's hardly a rational conclusion from the fact that he cited Joshua Micah Marshall.
[Dean]: Among the most troubling of the authoritarian and radical tactics being employed by Bush and Cheney are their politics of fear...Frightening Americans, nonetheless, has become a standard ploy for Bush, Cheney, and their surrogates. They add a fear factor to every course of action they pursue, whether it is their radical foreign policy of preemptive war, their call for tax cuts, their desire to privatize social security, or their implementation of a radical new health care scheme.
Dean is a frigging loon!
Well, perhaps to a wingnut.
Glenn, enlighten us all. Exactly how did Bush use "fear mongering" to sell tax cuts, social security accounts and the medicare prescription drug program? A politician buying votes is the opposite of "fear mongering."
The "death tax", going to take away your children's inheritance. You won't have any social security unless we privatize it right now. The drug plan isn't quite so clear cut; it is an issue, but the plan itself was piss-poor and a give-away to the drug companies.
[Dean]: This fearmongering began with the administration’s political exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy, when it made the fight against terrorists the centerpiece of its presidency. Bush and Cheney launched America’s first preemptive war by claiming it necessary to the fight against terrorism. . . .
Mr. Bush did not invent 9/11.
No one said that. He invented Saddam's WoMDs. ;-)
Nor did Bush use "fear" of the enemy which had just attacked us to rally the citizenry any more than Monroe did during the War of 1812, Lincoln did during the Civil War, Wilson did during WWI and FDR did during WWII.
Dubya didn't "rally the citizenry". He didn't call for any sacrifices, didn't tell people to knuckle down. He said, instead: "Spend, spend, spend! We'll cut your taxes [<*sotto voce*> "... and ours]. But just trust us and give us more power [and money], and keep some duct tape handy, and you'll be fine...."
Every President who presided over an enemy attack on the United States or against an ally has used that attack to rally the populace to wage war against that enemy.
Yeah. Dubya "rallied" (actually, bullied through fear and intimidation) the country to go to war with someone else. Then used the same or similar tactics to ram through his other pet projects.
[Dean]: “Elitists and dictators have used fear tactics to control their constituencies since the beginning of time,” noted scholar R. D. Davis in “Debunking the Big Lie,” in National Minority Politics (November 30, 1995).
What big lie?
HWSNBN should try to read it and see (but the date ought to make it clear to the non-brain-injured that Davis wasn't attacking Dubya here ... although this peculiar fact may explain why HWSNBN may have jumped the gun here). Not sure that reading it would help HWSNBN much, though, judging from the evidence above.
Glenn, your city was attacked twice, our capital once and our troops and civilians around the world several times by the enemy before we finally went to war.
... against Iraq. Glenn has stated for the record that he was in favour of the war in Afghanistan. There are some spoil-sports that have pointed out that the Afghanistan adventure was done "on the cheap", missed its target, and is in very serious danger of backsliding, in part because of Dubya's misadventure in Iraq.
Heavy majorities of the people and their representatives of both parties supported war in Afghanistan and then Iraq.
Heavy majorities now see that the maladministration fed us BS about Iraq, and oppose it and think it was a bad decision.
As to his comparisons with prior presidents or presidential candidates, please point out to all of us how Bush used "fear" in his speeches calling for military intervention against Iraq in 2002 where Kerry did not in 2002 or Clinton and Gore did not in 1998?
None of these people initiated a war there, particularly when inspections were showing that such was unnecessary. But even had they done so, that would be another "tu quoque" argument.
They all used the same evidence to make the same identical speeches.
Lies. The maladministration covered up the dissenting opinions and squelched the dissenters.
The only people who claim that both of our parties are run by fascists are communists and greens.
Huh?
[Dean]: Chris Ney and Kelly Creedon, authors with expertise on Latin American politics, wrote that “fear won the election” in El Salvador in 2004, noting, “The rhetoric and tactics mirror those employed by other Latin American right-wing parties, including that of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.”
There is no analogy whatsoever between these cases and ours....
So says "criminal prosecutor" and now 'scientist" HWSNBN. So STFU, you folks that dispute the obvious....
... Those Latin elections concerned campaigns between conservative parties and leftists who had previously waged war in the government....
ROFLMAO. Incoherent. Just incoherent. But Chile involved the removal of an elected President by a conservative military junta (with ample assistance from the U.S.). HWSNBN really needs to read Stephen Kinzer's book, "Overthrow" (or rather, needs to have someone else who's sapient read it, and explain it to him.
... Under such circumstances, pointing out the past treason of the opposite party is a perfectly legitimate campaign issue....
HWSNBN is hallucinating again. No point in discussing this further until he reads Kinzer's book.
... The GOP did it to the Donkeys for a generation after the Civil War.
More nonsense.
In sum, Dean claims that any President which expects his orders to be followed by his subordinates or rallys the nation to war against an enemy after a several attacks on our nation is an "authoritarian."
To greater or lesser extent (in Dubya's case, greater, much greater). But as pointed out, that wasn't what Dean's main thesis was. HWSNBN might be better served if he actually read the book before commenting on isolated, cherry-picked quotes that he just doesn't understand (and manages to mangle anyway).
All this proves is that Dean is either a loon or he is writing for loons with no concept of history or reality. Or both.
So says the person who hasn't read the book (disclaimer: I haven't either, yet; it's on my table at home a book or two down in the in-pile).
This is the functional and long winded equivalent of the usual leftist slur of calling conservatives "nazis."
HWSNBN just couldn't wait to shoot his mouth off conclusorily (and wrongly). What's new?....
:::yawn:::
If it's so boring, HWSNBN ought to spend the time more productively. Like reading the book he's passing judgement on, perhaps?
Cheers,
I seem to be ending every comment here with a proverb these days, which is probably more revealing than I'd like about how concerned I am about the rudderless nature of our statecraft these days, but here's another one. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
ReplyDeleteWhen the net result is irreparable harm, what posible difference could it make if the driver of the bus went off the cliff intentionally or incompetently? Except for the attorneys, it's not an issue.
Dean's publisher should change the title of this book to "What would a Felon, disbarred lawyer, ex-prison inmate do"??
ReplyDeleteLaughs the "Dog"
F-test results...
ReplyDeleteLiberal Airhead.
Oh, well I tried.
Incredible -- approximately 3,000 words AND a faux "advertise liberally" circle of links - you have really outdone yourself. BRAVO
ReplyDeleteGuess you must think you're pretty important to be lambasting us with that much verbage - obviously, most that comment in the threads don't read it, but it doesn't matter.
Just incredible...
bart:Authoritarianism in the political sense is dictatorial decision making from the top without discussion with the cost of dissent being punitive measures such as economic deprivation, prison, torture or death.
ReplyDeleteSo the decision from on high to fix the intelligence WRT Iraq and the subsequent reprisals against Joe Wilson with the career-ending outing of Flame, I mean Plame, doesn't count, eh? No? How about the administrational musings of high crimes against journalists? Or the C-in-C's de facto "dictatorial" powers for defending the national security of the USA, which include imprisonment, likely torture and possibly death?
For someone so attuned to "dissent" from the party line and rather supportive of punitive measures against same, it should be surprising you aren't making the connection here.
SHOULD be.
Reposted from a previous thread:
ReplyDeleteWhere's Bart?
Hey Bart, I am sure someone has found you under your rock to tell you this already but just in case not - it looks like it is time to turn in your ABA card or secret decoder ring or whatever it is you lawyers get for passing the bar.
You wouldn't want to belong to a traitorous association that hates America and is aiding the "Islamofacistsists" enemy would you?
You despicable authoritarian moron.
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeletebart: While I personally wouldn't accuse anyone in the Bush administration of being an authoritarian cultist, I think it's pretty clear that there's more Hobbes than Hume in Cheney's and Bolton's approach to foreign relations...
The only comparison of which I am aware to the United States foreign policy of a democracy using military force to spread democracy is Athens leading up to the Peloponnesian War. Victor Davis Hanson touches upon that comparison in his book A War Like No Other.
To anyone with some classical historical training (about which Dean plainly does not have a clue), this is a very interesting topic because there is very little historical precedent for this foreign policy approach.
We are in new territory.
The isolationist left's equation of war with authoritarianism is by equal measures ignorant and wrongheaded.
Western history is filled with democracies and republics waging war against authoritarian regimes. The simple waging of war hardly makes them any less democracies or republics.
I would love to have an intelligent conversation with you or anyone else here on this subject without the childish nazi name calling.
Some of you apparently went to "elite" liberal arts universities. Did these institutions provide you with a classical liberal education including critical and comparative examination of western history and civilization? Or did you receive the usual moral equivalence mish mash which passes for history with the academic left?
:::sigh:::
anonymous: When the net result is irreparable harm, what posible difference could it make if the driver of the bus went off the cliff intentionally or incompetently?
ReplyDeleteWell, yes.... But if you're trying to entice him from behind the wheel before he makes the plunge, it might make all the difference in the world.
“Well, Mr. Greenwald, what ya got here is a real bad infestation a them there ‘right-wing’ trolls. Ya got ‘em real bad. The only way to treat a infestation that bad is ta fumigate.”
ReplyDelete“No need to worry, ‘cause we use stuff these days that just removes the trolls but don’t harm none of your ‘regular’ people. They can keep right on havin’ a nice discussion…”
“Mind you, it don’t stop ‘em trolls from coming back, but it’s better ‘n nuthin’…”
“Oh, you don’t have to pay me nuthin’. Them ‘wingnuts’ been draggin’ this country down for too long. I’m just happy ta help out…”
spark said...
ReplyDeletebart:Authoritarianism in the political sense is dictatorial decision making from the top without discussion with the cost of dissent being punitive measures such as economic deprivation, prison, torture or death.
So the decision from on high to fix the intelligence WRT Iraq and the subsequent reprisals against Joe Wilson with the career-ending outing of Flame, I mean Plame, doesn't count, eh?
If any of that was actually true, you might have a point.
There is not a scrap of evidence of any intelligence fix, nevertheless one by the President. Unanimous bipartisan panels of the Senate and the British parliament found no such fix.
There is not a scrap of evidence that Plame was outed in reprisal for Joe Wilson's lies in the NYT. Indeed, the Fitzgerald investigation found that NYT reporters found out about Plame through their own calls before the Wilson article. There were no calls by the Administration to the press leaking Plame's identity to the press.
No? How about the administrational musings of high crimes against journalists?
The felony crimes of the NYT & Co. were discussed in the press long before. The only administration statements (such as they were) on the subject came in response to press and congressional questions on the subject in reaction to the press analysis of the crimes.
MikeEss said...
ReplyDelete“Well, Mr. Greenwald, what ya got here is a real bad infestation a them there ‘right-wing’ trolls. Ya got ‘em real bad. The only way to treat a infestation that bad is ta fumigate.”
The "final solution," eh?
I love it when leftists whine that conservatives are "authoritarians" and then demand that the conservatives who answer the allegation be silenced...
You people really don't get the irony at all, do you?
Hey Glenn..
ReplyDeleteTarget is having a sale on tube socks. You might want to stop in and pick up several dozen for your "friends".
Go check out Wuzzadem for a theatrical recap of l'affaire de sock.
bart: I would love to have an intelligent conversation with you or anyone else here on this subject without the childish nazi name calling.
ReplyDeleteUnlikely, as long as you define intelligent to mean agreeing with bart.
bart: Some of you apparently went to "elite" liberal arts universities. Did these institutions provide you with a classical liberal education including critical and comparative examination of western history and civilization?
Presumption, pure and simple. Also offensive, in the sense that you imply that among us, only you are a graduate of the true academy. For all you know, we could be from Kansas State or the École Politechnique, or, like Lincoln, impoverished country boys who studied law by candlelight in Possum Grape, Arkansas.
Classical liberal education. You mean, like Homer, Tacitus, Toynbee, Aristotle, Kant, Schopenauer, etc.
Does Solitudinem faciunt, et pacem appellant mean anything to you? Hic et Ubique?
Well, I've implied often enough that you have a screw loose here and there. I don't suppose I can complain if you return the favor.
Hey Bart-The-Troll (and the rest of you F*ckheads):
ReplyDeleteEff you and the bridge you live under...
I'm with Steve Gilliard on this stuff. Fight the trolls back to wherever they come from. Don't give an inch. Make it clear that the only people who listen to the trolls are the other trolls.
Glenn Greenwald and everyone else not in the wingnut-o-sphere are more American than any of you pathetic authoritarian cultist neocon/neonazi wastes of human flesh. You aren’t fit to be boils on the butts of the founders of this nation. Your president is the most pathetic future Betty Ford Clinic alumnus this country has ever had. And that’s Dead-Eye Big-Dick Cheney. The other guy should have choked to death on his own vomit on college…
Let me tell you bud, I just got back from a trip where I saw Auschwitz. If the current administration and you cultists are not stopped, that’s where were headed. They may arrest me and my kind first, but they’ll still get you. Ain’t no upside to where this is going…
"alear" (a/k/a "James W. Cooper") said:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: "simple fact that it's a logical fallacy to dismiss an argument because of the (alleged) personal characteristics of the proponent (extra gredit if you can name the fallacy..."
Among other things, I know that you're implying I'm throwing out a red herring.
I keep my dime, IC (although it was never really at risk). The fallacy is argumentum ad hominem.
My point is, if Mr Greenwald wishes to engage his audience, it would be best if he earned and maintained a certain integrity.
He's got that. Morons like you think think that RW foamer allegations about "sock puppetry" constitute some kind of argument. I think your real problem is that you don't have any friends that agree with you.
PS The following are uncalled for, if we're to debate:
Why? You use fallacies; I'll skip the formal rhetoric. Fair 'nuff?
[Arne]: "You're not a "centrist". You're another RW foamer azo come over from the Pajama Party boys.
-- Statement with zero evidence.
Your first post is evidence enough.
Fallacy on Arne's part (also, Argumentum ad Populum).
Nonsense. Simply stating the obvious. I'm not refuting any logical proposition of your; simply commenting on your rhetorical technique and logic skills.
"Jeff Goldstein -- ummm, "do his thing" to your face
-- What's with you people and Jeff G?
Never saw you around before the blogswarm attack from AoS/Misha/PW (who all jumped on Glenn's supposed "sock puppetry" as an example of some heinous crime and a discrediting of his message like their dreams were suddenly realized and a blow-up doll with a ton of K-Y appeared magically in their closet). Coincidence? Coincidence you're singing the same song? I think not. To be sure, if you were honest, you'd accept Glenn's statement on the alleged "sock puppetry" and STFU about demanding more 'explanation', get on past that, and actually address Glenn on the merits fo his posts. That you don't (and then threaten Glenn with a withdrawal of your allegedly 'centrist' support, like he gives a damn for the likes of you) shows dishonesty ... and a distinct lack of clear thinking. That goes well with the 'discussion' you'll find at PW, complete with Goldstein's sexuo-agressive fantasies....
[Arne]: "... bother us folks around here?"
-- Naah, it's mildly entertaining.
To you. Not to the folks that actually want to engage in substantive discussion.
[Arne]: "Yet, you seem fixated on something for some reason, and claim to be ready to dismiss Glenn's atricles because of that."
-- I dismiss Gleen's atricles because I call shenanigans on them.
So then you'll excuse me if I consider you a dishonest eedjit and ignore everything you say from now on, even if you say the sun rises on the East....
... No "claim" here. I dismiss his musings. End of part one.
We noted that. We also noted a lack of reasons as to why you'd do such a thing. Which qualifies you eminently for a position of honour on, say, the PW blog. Please bestow your wisdom on them.
"You wouldn't be a liar now, would you?"
-- No, I'm not. Why would you imply that? Read what I wrote again.
I've explained above why I think you are. Doesn't matter to me, because you haven't said anything of any substance, anything worth dismissing. If you're not a liar, you're still a clueless berk, and we can do with a few less of those around here nowadays.
[Arne]: "Cheers"
-- You did not mean anything close to cheers with your sign off.
Oh, sure, I do. Really.
It's clear from your FOAD directly above that you wish me anything but Cheers.
No. I wish you "cheers". And I also wish you FOAD. For the reasons stated above.
I wish you well, Arne, I really do. It's Greenwald that needs attention.
Glenn's doing just fine, thank you, despite the best efforts of folks like you, Misha, AoS, Jeff, and the rest of the RW foamer contingent that are having conniptions about Glenn's popularity.
Tell you what, you think you have more to say than Glenn, and you can say it better an more honestly, go write a book, OK?
Now FOAD.
Cheers,
HWSNBN is now not only a "criminal prosecutor" and a "scientist", but also a "classicist historian". Wow. How does he lie down in bed with himself at night; he mist feel unworthy:
ReplyDeleteTo anyone with some classical historical training (about which Dean plainly does not have a clue), this is a very interesting topic because there is very little historical precedent for this foreign policy approach.
There's very little "historical precedent" for this because it's basically a sucky idea, and any people actualy intent on firthering democracy would dismiss it out of hand. VDH is an eedjit (not to mention a piss-poor "historian"). As are most of the neocons, for all their alleged "intelligence". HWSNBN isn't even singly blessed.
Cheers,
nick said...
ReplyDeleteJust to establish my street cred:
According the F Scale, I am "a true American."
Not surprised. On the 1946 F Scale test, "a true American" is no doubt Bart's score category also.
Get this, Nick. I'll write whatever I want on this blog unless Glenn himself asks me not to. I will then voluntarily abide by Glenn's requests because of my respect for Glenn and because he owns this blog.
You are not my master, and I am not your slave. Get used to the fact that some people don't submit to bullies.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThe isolationist left's equation of war with authoritarianism is by equal measures ignorant and wrongheaded.
Wow. Quite the "straw man" there.
Maybe someone would be nice enough to oblige HWSNBN, salve his ego, and actually argue that point so he won't cry all night....
Now, speaking of "ignorant" and "wrongheaded".....
Cheers,
HWSNBN lies brazenly:
ReplyDeleteIndeed, the Fitzgerald investigation found that NYT reporters found out about Plame through their own calls before the Wilson article....
Cite?
... There were no calls by the Administration to the press leaking Plame's identity to the press.
"Red herring". We don't care who called who on any particular call. That's irrelevant.
What is known is that Matt Cooper, Judy Miller, and Bob Novak heard this news from maladministration officials. They've said it. The principals have admitted it to the grand jury.
Cheers,
Hey Arne,
ReplyDeleteI just saw our new "centrist" friend Alear over in a Q and O comments thread praising our other new concern troll -- the infamous -- Pablo.
I guess our side lost him.
Pity :)
dorita:
ReplyDeleteHey Arne,
I just saw our new "centrist" friend Alear over in a Q and O comments thread praising our other new concern troll -- the infamous -- Pablo.
I guess our side lost him.
Pity :)
Glad you're doing the scouting. I just had dinner, and that might have been rough. Thanks for the update, but there wasn't a whole lot of doubt of "alear"'s nature. They're so used to dealing with eedjits in those climes, they think we're stoopid too.
Cheers,
bart: The isolationist left's equation of war with authoritarianism is by equal measures ignorant and wrongheaded.
ReplyDeleteWell, okay Arne, I'll get us started. I'm sure bart can handle a war on two fronts.
I can't say without fear of contradiction that no one on the left has ever adopted your equation, but most commenters here are doing nothing of the sort. War is sometimes the only option a nation has, particularly when an enemy forecloses its other options by attacking first.
Still, in most cases there are a number of options available prior to the onset of war. Even in World War II -- and I'm talking exclusively here about the Pacific front -- we had the option of continuing to supply Japan with essential raw materials despite her invasion of China.
We chose not to embrace that option, probably because 1) we thought that an embargo on strategic commodities would rein Japan in short of actual war, and 2) because we thought that the military threat from Japan was negligible. (We also had a certain general contempt for non-European nations which blinded us to Japan's competence in thse areas. We'd presumably forgotten the Battle of Tsushima Strait, or thought that since Russia was contemptibly weak anyway at the time, it wasn't a proof of anything.)
This was an awful miscalculation, but not nearly so awful as the one Japan made in attacking Pearl Harbor.
Still, we had options other than war, even here. The Roosevelt administration chose not to exercise them for what they thought to be persuasive reasons.
Do I, as a leftist consider Roosevelt an authoritarian because of this decision. No. No qualifiers, just a simple no.
And please, don't tell me that I think this because I secretly wanted us to rescue our hero Stalin. :-)
If there's any interest, I'd be happy to explain why I believe Roosevelt's War, as the isolationists sometimes called it, was qualitatively different from GWB's present war in Iraq.
This is why David Horowitz is equally comfortable as a Stalinist and as a "conservative". He just wants to be right about something at the top of his lungs and doesn't really care what the ideological content is. This is why Norquist admires Lenin; for his ruthlessness.
ReplyDeletebamage said...
ReplyDeleteRobert1014 said...
According the F Scale, I'm a "whining rotter."
5:33 PM
Robert, me too. A "whining rotter", am I.
I was lucky to make a "whining rotter". The trick question #25 enabled me to go plus or I might have dropped off the chart.
Arne, thanks for the FOAD which I intend to use freely from now on with your permission. You're especially good today, arne, and we finally have some "anons" worth reading.
The Major remains one of my few favorite commenters. His post of 7:33 is one of his few best. The guy is not only brilliant but has a very engaging personality. Anyone still doubting his parody "creds" should read that one carefully. If we have to have an "end-times" big blowout ceremony, I think we should at least demand that the Major be the Master of Ceremonies.
He could make even that a lot of fun. Might as well Exit Laughing....
PS. Next Sunday at a lull time, I'll post another test which is a lot more subtle than the F Scale test.
Dorita:
ReplyDeleteI just saw our new "centrist" friend Alear over in a Q and O comments thread...
<*looks at QandO*> Oh. My ol' "correspondent" Bruce McQuain is one of the principals there, eh?. I used to spank his a$$ on a listserv list a decade or so ago.... Doesn't sound encouraging for any quality discourse....
Cheers,
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeletebart: I would love to have an intelligent conversation with you or anyone else here on this subject without the childish nazi name calling.
Unlikely, as long as you define intelligent to mean agreeing with bart.
I don't come to leftist blogs looking for agreement. I come looking for a debate, preferably an intelligent one.
bart: Some of you apparently went to "elite" liberal arts universities. Did these institutions provide you with a classical liberal education including critical and comparative examination of western history and civilization?
Presumption, pure and simple. Also offensive, in the sense that you imply that among us, only you are a graduate of the true academy.
That is your presumption, not my implication. I come from a blue collar family and earned my way through college. I joined the Army for the college money and then worked by way through a state university with a after school night job.
My university was one of those I criticized for teaching moral equivalence pablum instead of critical thinking about western civilization. Like Lincoln, much of my education is self taught.
Classical liberal education. You mean, like Homer, Tacitus, Toynbee, Aristotle, Kant, Schopenauer, etc.
Bingo! One of my poli sci graduate professors spent more of his time preaching about the wonders of life in Nicaragua under the Sandanistas to have an even passing acquaintance with those thinkers.
Arne,
ReplyDeleteI'm off to sleep after this, but the Q and O post at the top (or at least it was the last I looked) by Jon Henke is interesting.
As for McQ -- I scroll through, of course.
Night:)
BART: a democracy using military force to spread democracy is Athens leading up to the Peloponnesian War...
ReplyDeleteWrong. Alexander the Great's programme was to promote the Hellenic ideology of the Greek state, epitomized by Athens. He had learned this at the feet of Aristotle. This idology came into conflict after Alexander's death with numerous indigenous political and religious practices.
Rome itself--before Caesar--could be seen to have attempted to spread Roman republicanism.
The US' pretensions to spreading an ideology is nothing new. It's been the basis of numerous world empires.
You can also see Renaissance Humanism as a political movement which promoted democratic and republican-style forms of government.
Arne,
ReplyDeleteI'm starting not to like you. Get it right. Whatever you think I said in Q and O, this wasn't it. And stop saying Cheers, it doesn't suit your temper.
"
Dorita:
I just saw our new "centrist" friend Alear over in a Q and O comments thread...
<*looks at QandO*> Oh. My ol' "correspondent" Bruce McQuain is one of the principals there, eh?. I used to spank his a$$ on a listserv list a decade or so ago.... Doesn't sound encouraging for any quality discourse....
"
Cheers,
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeletebart: The isolationist left's equation of war with authoritarianism is by equal measures ignorant and wrongheaded.
Well, okay Arne, I'll get us started. I'm sure bart can handle a war on two fronts.
I generally ignore arne. He lies like a rug and thinks that misrepresentation of what I post constitutes debate.
I can't say without fear of contradiction that no one on the left has ever adopted your equation, but most commenters here are doing nothing of the sort.
My friend, I didn't come up with that observation out of thin air. This is exactly what Dean was implying in the excerpt which Glenn was hawking.
Do I, as a leftist consider Roosevelt an authoritarian because of this decision. No. No qualifiers, just a simple no.
That is why I enjoy speaking with you. You have common sense.
The argument Dean was making was ludicrous.
And please, don't tell me that I think this because I secretly wanted us to rescue our hero Stalin. :-)
Sorry, the thought never crossed my mind. I don't subscribe to the rightist paranoia that FDR was a tool of the communists. He entered into an alliance of necessity with one evil tyrant to defeat a more dangerous one.
If there's any interest, I'd be happy to explain why I believe Roosevelt's War, as the isolationists sometimes called it, was qualitatively different from GWB's present war in Iraq.
You would be preaching to the choir. While you can pull out some useful comparisons between some aspects of WWII and some aspects of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are fundamentally different types of wars.
bart: Like Lincoln, much of my education is self taught.
ReplyDeleteNo harm in that; it's the essence of the American dream (no leftist irony intended.)
Still, would it surprise you to hear that your formulation "elite" liberal arts universities marked you as an auto-didact before you said word one about your background?
How could I know that, eh? And what else might I know that would be of interest?
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteBART: a democracy using military force to spread democracy is Athens leading up to the Peloponnesian War...
Wrong. Alexander the Great's programme was to promote the Hellenic ideology of the Greek state, epitomized by Athens.
Alexander was a tyrant, did not lead a democracy and was not spreading democracy.
Rome itself--before Caesar--could be seen to have attempted to spread Roman republicanism.
Not hardly. Rome, even during the time of the Republic, was engaged in conquest and enslavement, not the spread of democracy.
William Timberman:
ReplyDeleteWell, okay Arne, I'll get us started. I'm sure bart can handle a war on two fronts.
I can't say without fear of contradiction that no one on the left has ever adopted your equation, but most commenters here are doing nothing of the sort. War is sometimes the only option a nation has, particularly when an enemy forecloses its other options by attacking first.
Still, in most cases there are a number of options available prior to the onset of war....
Too subtle for HWSNBN.
He likes the "fallacy of bifurcation", the argumentum ad hominem, the "straw man", and the "red herring". Not necessarily in that order. You pick what you can off the floor when there's no tools left in the shed.
William, you have to understand that about HWSNBN. He puts on a patina of reasonableness, but it's the same damn shite over and over (witness in this thread that one of his few resorts to actual "facts and evidence" is to claim that the news media figgered out Plame's job sans assistance from the maladministration, when even Rove has admitted it (albeit, in order to avoid a perjury sentence and a sore rectal sphincter). He's been told this is no longer a tenable position multiple times (as if it ever was), but he'll keep doing it. Same for his crapola on Kos and the liberal blogosphere's election average. Same on many issues here (which is why Glenn won't respond to him, and why I just pummel him once again so he knows he's not getting anywhere).
He makes arguments purportedly vased on law, but he won't quote the cases he cites because: A). He cribbed the cites from somewhere and really doesn't know WTF they actually say (and I caught him on this, quoting from the minority report of the Wategate Committess), and B). They dont' say what he says they say (I caught him on this claiming a "holding" for dicta, and in one case he actually conceded this mistake, but insisted the dicta meant something anyway).
HWSNBN just doesn't argue honestly, as an actual lawyer would. In fact, if you miscite law, and the judge catches you at it, you've pissed off he judge, and even if you have an arguable case, human nature is not on your side. I'd assume that HWSNBN is properly obsequeous in court, and would never presume to tell judges there that they're just mistaken on the law, but he does that here all the time. He thinks there's no penalty for such here, but he's mistaken: We have just as much right to think he's an eedjit, and to dismiss his case here, as a judge has. And he's just not getting anywhere with his dishonesty.
So, my colleage: Don't encourage him. Don't feed the troll.
Cheers,
bart: Alexander was a tyrant, did not lead a democracy and was not spreading democracy.
ReplyDeleteWrong again barto. Alexander started out spreading Greek democratic ideals. It was much later that he took on Imperial pretensions. As anyone knows, who's seen the terrible Oliver Stone movie, Alexander's taking on imperial role was considered by his generals as a betrayal of their campaign.
Be that as it may, wherever Alexander conquered, he left Greek-style city-states based on the model of Athens. This is why they call the entire era "hellenism." It is because the Greek Enlightenment, epitomized by Athens was used as a model for changing social and cultural worlds.
Rome is considered by many historians an extension of this Hellenistic ideology. Rome--the model used by the founding fathers--was an imperfect republic, but a republic nonetheless, at least until Augustus.
Dorita:
ReplyDeleteArne,
I'm off to sleep after this, but the Q and O post at the top (or at least it was the last I looked) by Jon Henke is interesting.
As for McQ -- I scroll through, of course.
Dunno about the blog. I will give McQ the benefit of actually arguing stuff rather than threatenting to cock-slap your face if you piss him off. But IIRC, he's a libertarian/conservative, and I remember long "discussions" on the likes of gay marriage with him and one other conservative.
As I understasnd it, QandO may be one of the more rational RW sites, and may be worth a peek for what the adults over there are saying (always good to knwo what the opposing side is arguing), but that's not saying much. Maybe I ought to take a peek at it more often.
At one time, I thought that Captain's Quaretrs was a less psychotic site on the right ... but then Starfleet Comma... -- ummm, sorry, "Cap'n" -- Ed got caught up in his own self-importance, and started lusting after his place amongst the "big kids" (check out his recent missives about his session with that noted intellectual Karl Rove), and he's been toeing the line on "party fidelity".
Me. Two degrees of separation from Karl Rove. <*bleeeeech! hork!*>
Cheers,
alear:
ReplyDeleteArne,
I'm starting not to like you. Get it right.
Tell it to someone who gives a f*ck. "Or am I being too obtuse?"
... Whatever you think I said in Q and O, this wasn't it.
I didn't think you said anything. Haven't been there.
And stop saying Cheers, it doesn't suit your temper.
Cheers,
Arne: So, my colleage: Don't encourage him. Don't feed the troll.
ReplyDeleteWell, no doubt some of what you say is true; bart would like to convince everyone that he's smarter than any evil leftist, and he is more interested in arguing than in broadening his perspectives, but.... When all is said and done, what he'd like most of all is to be taken seriously. I don't suppose there are a great number of folks in Colorado Springs who're prepared to discuss Thucydides over tacos and beer.
Like I've said before, that's jake with me. I have no hope whatever of making any real peace with him, let alone violating the fineness of his mind, but I'm content.
If nothing else, he gives us a window of opportunity. You know, pour encourager les autres.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteI generally ignore arne. He lies like a rug and thinks that misrepresentation of what I post constitutes debate.
HWSNBN generally ignores me because I have him nailed to rights. His clam that I lie is insubstantiated and unsustantiable.
He, OTOH, says that he's "served as a criminal prosecutor" (in public, no less), but now intimates that he's also a scientist and a historian. The first part is a lie (at least, HWSNBN hasn't bothered to refute my claim and tell us where he's ever been elected or appointed such). The rest is balderdash. He's a diplomaed eedjit ... and nothing else.
Cheers,
Arne: His clam that I lie
ReplyDeleteNow all we need is a little linguine, and a nice bottle of pinot grigio, and Torna a Sorrento on the jukebox....
This political stuff can't hold a candle to dolce far niente. Non è vero?
HWSNBN says:
ReplyDeleteYou would be preaching to the choir. While you can pull out some useful comparisons between some aspects of WWII and some aspects of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are fundamentally different types of wars.
That's funny. HWSNBN loves trotting out comparisons when it suits his particular point du jour.
Like about the efficiency of military invasion bringing about "democracy" -- a point he's repeatedly made in the past citing Germany and Japan and defending his Chimperor -- and asserting (against the evidence) that such is going to work ... maybe a generation or so from now ... in Iraq.
Cheers,
And stop saying Cheers, it doesn't suit your temper.
ReplyDeleteAu contraire. Arne is one of our most cheerful commenters. He goes about his work surgically while whistling a happy tune.
Cheers,
William Timberman [converning troll Bart]:
ReplyDeleteWhen all is said and done, what he'd like most of all is to be taken seriously.
Then he ought to start by admitting to errors of fact (when pointed out multiple times), and by adressing honestly and stright-forwardly the objections of his opponents.
Until he begins honest debate, he's only worthy of ridicule (for instance, for his insistence, here in fact, that the maladministration didn't 'out' Plame).
For any kind of honest discussion, we need to agree to some small set of basic undisputed facts.
Cheers,
William Timberman:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: His clam that I lie
Now all we need is a little linguine, and a nice bottle of pinot grigio, and Torna a Sorrento on the jukebox....
This political stuff can't hold a candle to dolce far niente. Non è vero?
I didn't say "like". You should know better. ;-)
As for engaging him, I've warned you. But you've encouraged him. Bad mistake; he'll think he's got a chance. The only real appraches worth mentioning are to ignore him or to take him on head-on )or ridicule him, as I do).
Here, for your perusal, when you have a day or two: The sad history from start to finish.
Cheers,
Arne: Then he ought to start by admitting to errors of fact (when pointed out multiple times), and by adressing honestly and stright-forwardly the objections of his opponents.
ReplyDeleteWell yes, he oughta, damned straight. But he ain't gonna. To quote a favorite songwriter of mine, no one has that much ego to spend. Also, he's not too sensitive to the sub-text, or maybe he just isn't articulate enough to address it. He probably thinks we elitists are trying to put one over on him.
Which is why, I suspect, he thinks gunfire is better than diplomacy. Gunfire he can handle. Target picture, control breathing, squeeze, don't pull -- none of yer wimpy liberal subtleties there. Unless, of course, the target shoots back.
ewo said:
ReplyDeleteCheers,
Love it. Thank you. ;-) I wish we would all do the same.
(FWIW, my fiancee just asked over the weekend why I did that -- she thought it not appropriate. I disagree, I think we should be civil and polite whenever possible [let the foamers try and figure that one out; doubt they'll succeed]).
Cheers,
Arne:
ReplyDeleteOn second thought, you're right. It's a division of labor thing, You bash him, so everybody'll get the point that he's HWSNBN, and I'll tease him, so he'll know Jesus still loves him.
Who knows, maybe we'll make an honest man out of him yet. I like having my linguine and eating it too, you see. (And tell me, where is it written that one can't have a little fun in medias res?)
WT: no one has that much ego to spend
ReplyDeleteWho dat?
Cheers,
EWO: Who dat?
ReplyDeleteAimee Mann, who headed the group 'till Tuesday some years back.
They had one hit, Voices Carry, which used to be played occasionally in the One Hit Wonders segments on MTV.
The quote is from Deathly, on the album Bachelor no. 2.
Now that I've met you,
Would it upset you,
If we don't see each other again?
'Cause I can't afford to
Climb aboard you
No one has that much ego to spend.
Feminist anthem, wry and yet very moving. Good stuff, in a world that weeps for it.
bart:There is not a scrap of evidence that Plame was outed in reprisal for Joe Wilson's lies in the NYT.
ReplyDeleteAlrightey-then. I'm perfectly sure you think O.J. is innocent, too.
Of course, if there actually were "not a scrap of evidence that Plame was outed in reprisal", it sure is mighty peculiar that Dubya-approved Fitzgerald would declare, in a court filing no less, that "it is hard to conceive of what evidence there could be that would disprove the existence of White House efforts to 'punish' Wilson".
The deal is if you were to actually wish the same right to enjoy the freedom found in asserting a burden to prove, not disprove, ones charges to ALL Americans, and seriously address the root causes as to why such a flip has actually occurred in America, you would begin to approach something resembling credibility around here. Until then you're piss-filled jackbooted joke to me.
spark:
ReplyDeleteThe deal is if you were to actually wish the same right to enjoy the freedom found in asserting a burden to prove, not disprove, ones charges to ALL Americans, and seriously address the root causes as to why such a flip has actually occurred in America, you would begin to approach something resembling credibility around here. Until then you're piss-filled jackbooted joke to me.
HWSNBN loves shifting the burden of proof. One of his favourite debate tactics.
But he wields it selectively.
He's a hypocrite.
Cheers,
Alrightey-then. I'm perfectly sure you think O.J. is innocent, too.
ReplyDeleteBart thinks O.J. is guilty because he was a black man with a white woman. That wouldn't stop him from taking his money and arguing his innocence, however.
Given that the vast majority of people who suffered under authoritarian regimes over the past century were victims of socialism,
ReplyDeleteGiven that the entirety of right wing authoritarian regimes conveniently go down your memory hole, it's easy to see why people like you continue to make this baseless charge.
One very odd thing I've realized is I don't think I've ever seen a liberal/progressive troll. Then again, maybe it's not that odd. Whenever their "great leader" is questioned in a less-than-glorious manner they come out to smear, lie, and disrupt such "treasonous" conversation.
ReplyDeleteEyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeleteWT: As I recall you hadn't joined this blog community yet when the F Scale test, designed to "construct an instrument that would yield an estimate of fascist receptivity at the personality level." appeared here in a link by a commenter. For you and others who missed it and would like to take it just for fun, here it is.
Leave it to EWO to dig up Chuck Anesi. Two morons of a feather...
Bart is like Chuck Anesi. I intend to make every effort to ignore him from now on. More people have heard of Adorno, or even Ward Churchill, than Bart or Chuck Anesi combined. William seems a bit too interested in rehabilitating Bart. William does have a hint of the "redeemed from the left by the right" about him. Duly noted, William.
Arguing with Bart and Shooter and the rest is like arguing with alcoholics in denial. It's not debate. Debate is about things like abortion and rights and things about which there are legitimate questions yet to be resolved. You don't debate with the disheveled bum sleeping in your doorway with empty liqour bottles in his pockets whether or not he has a drinking problem. You call the police and have him removed. Why? Because once it was considered a moral weakness, now it's an illness. The fellow objecting to "nuclear cowboys" being called "mentally ill" should take note of this.
ReplyDeleteSectarian break-up of Iraq is now inevitable, admit officials
The Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, meets Tony Blair in London today as violence in Iraq reaches a new crescendo and senior Iraqi officials say the break up of the country is inevitable.
A car bomb in a market in the Shia stronghold of Sadr City in Baghdad yesterday killed 34 people and wounded a further 60 and was followed by a second bomb in the same area two hours later that left a further eight dead. Another car bomb outside a court house in Kirkuk killed a further 20 and injured 70 people.
"Iraq as a political project is finished," a senior government official was quoted as saying, adding: "The parties have moved to plan B." He said that the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish parties were now looking at ways to divide Iraq between them and to decide the future of Baghdad, where there is a mixed population. "There is serious talk of Baghdad being divided into [Shia] east and [Sunni] west," he said.
Illness vs. moral weakness, malicious intent vs. negligence or incompetence, this is all bullshit. You debate this crap after you have taken the drunk from behind the wheel of the bus careening over the cliff.
A nonny... Because once it was considered a moral weakness, now it's an illness. The fellow objecting to "nuclear cowboys" being called "mentally ill" should take note of this.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality used to be considered a mental illness and no longer is, now some idiots consider it a moral weakness. Illness is defined more for the benefit of drug and insurance companies and the consumers of their services. We would all benefit from "conservatism" being so defined. It's a terminal illness in most cases. It's congentital and not very contagious, but very popular among hypochondriacs and psycho-somatics.
Shoes of Peace... Heh. I like that.
EWO -
ReplyDeleteGrow a thicker skin, man. Re-read my comment. Just because I disagree with you about Ayn Rand does not mean that I am not attacking you. That was actually my point. You are so ready to take offense on this subject, that you become somewhat the reactionary drone that you decry (effectively, at times).
I made no plea for censorship, just self-restraint. There are subjects upon which I find it hard to comment with any detachment or (you ought to like this one) objectivity. I try and be aware of them and maybe temper my passions in the interest of conversation and rational discussion.
I have no interest in being anyone's master. I can't even effectively give orders to myself.
How can you expect devotees of Rand to ever have developed a thick skin. They are all teen-age adolescent males or grown men who think like teen age boys and insane broads like Pamela the bunny boiler.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: William seems a bit too interested in rehabilitating Bart. William does have a hint of the "redeemed from the left by the right" about him. Duly noted, William.
ReplyDeleteWilliam should be more careful, ja? Someone could be taking notes.
If William should inadvertently rehabilitate Bart, coming up with a Unified Field Theory is next on his agenda. Stick around, Anon, and keep yer notebook handy.
The notion of a "school or theory of philosophy" called "obectivism" or "objectivist thought" is the supreme oxymoron. All philosphy is by nature totally subjective and mostly useless. Ask any philosophy major. That does not reflect poorly on philosophy so much as it reflects poorly on us as supposedly sentient beings. No need to wonder why some dogs love to chase their own tails.
ReplyDeleteanonymous sez:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: Given that the vast majority of people who suffered under authoritarian regimes over the past century were victims of socialism,
Given that the entirety of right wing authoritarian regimes conveniently go down your memory hole, it's easy to see why people like you continue to make this baseless charge.
HWSNBN really needs to read Stephen Kinzer's "Overthrow" (now available in paperback), so he'll get an idea about the sanguinary history of just the RW regimes the U.S. installed....
Cheers,
William Timberman:
ReplyDeleteIf William should inadvertently rehabilitate Bart, coming up with a Unified Field Theory is next...
I'll put my money on ToE first. That's the smart bet.
Cheers,
Arne:
ReplyDelete;-)
Anonymous seems to have mistaken me for Alan Dershowitz, and all because I tried to give a sucker an even break. Open your mouth, it seems, and pow! you're somebody's personal Rorschach test. Goes with the territory, I guess.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThe notion of a "school or theory of philosophy" called "obectivism" or "objectivist thought" is the supreme oxymoron. All philosphy is by nature totally subjective and mostly useless. Ask any philosophy major....
Oh, but there's where you're wrong. Saint Rand worked hard and mightily at it, toiled for years paying in her dues in academia, wrote some novels, and voila! came up with a proof from obvious and undisputed first principles and just pure deductive logic, called "Objectivism". I had the proof right over here, checked out with a loosely coupled array of formal logic checking processors left over from the Four Colour Theorem proof ... umm, maybe over here ... ahhh, was it over here ... ummm, I know I had it somewhere, I'll get back to you.
... That does not reflect poorly on philosophy so much as it reflects poorly on us as supposedly sentient beings....
The allure (and staying power) of Objectivism comes not from its inherent properties, but from what it can prove. The "fuzzy" sciences of psychology, sociology, and political science tell me that (subjectively, of course).
Cheers,
William Timberman:
ReplyDeleteAnonymous seems to have mistaken me for Alan Dershowitz, and all because I tried to give a sucker an even break.
You're relatively new here. We're a bit more jaded, and of the opinion that anything that smacks of encouragement is, generally speaking, a very bad idea. If there be pearls amongst the dross, it's inconceivable that HWSNBN would be the sole discoverer (particularly since he cribs his "talking points" from WhirledNutzDaily, Freepervilee, and other such sources to begin with). We can do without him. And don't worry about my unemployment; there will always be plenty of trolls to smack around (particularly since Glenn's leveled his guns at the foaming RW's favourite bloggers and they've sent the minions swarming).
Cheers,
Cheers,
Cheers,
William Timberman said...
ReplyDeleteWho knows, maybe we'll make an honest man out of him yet. I like having my linguine and eating it too, you see. (And tell me, where is it written that one can't have a little fun in medias res?)
William - different Anon here.
You really are new here. If you think you are ever going to make an "honest man" out of Bart then you have another thing coming. If you haven't you need to read Dean's book and just realize what you are dealing with in Bart. It isn't funny. He isn't funny.
If Bart had his way you, me and the editors and writers at the NYT's would be headed off to "traitor camps." Keep yukking it up if you want but know that many of us are not finding it funny in the least.
What strikes me is the present universality of people's need for the "protection" of authoritarian figures. That's really what's at work in the social disaster that is modern Islam, and very likely motivates the Chinese clinging to their odd brand of Communism, as well. Perhaps it has been thus always and everywhere, but it seems especially acute now. People everywhere are afraid of ... something. That "something" is the future itself, I suspect. This is alienation on steroids.
ReplyDeleteArne and a different anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYeah, anon, I committed irony. Guilty, but not of finding bart's views funny.
And Arne, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, both about bart's intentions and my naiveté.
As you're wont to say,
Cheers
and when the soviet army came into Berlin, many hung themselves and shot their family members because they felt life was over- they could not imagine going on in a new reality
ReplyDeleteI don't know that the arguments put forward in 'Silent Coup' have been put to rest in favor of the Deans' position or lawsuit. (Were they?) I read the book and its predecessor "Secret Agenda" by Jim Hougan (iirc) with great interest, and found they both raised details of the Watergate case that cast considerable doubt on the official version.
ReplyDeleteWhile their theorizing about Dean's role may not have been proven, they correctly point out the existence of a call girl service for politicians being run out of the DNC HQ, and particularly from the phone and desk of one of the secretaries, whose phone was the target of the bug, and for whose desk the WG burglars had keys. Often forgotten, it seems the WG break-in was to repair a broken bug that had been secreted their in a PRIOR break-in. And, evidently, the madame of this operation had a room-mate named Maureen Biner aka Mo Biner, and then later, Mo Dean (John's then-fiancee, later wife).
I heard Randi Rhodes interviewing Dean on the subject of this book, and tangentially about the alleged smear job of 'Silent Coup,' where Randi called the call girl allegations a complete fantasy. But to my knowledge, the charges against attorney Philip Mellanson (from memory, possibly not his name) for RUNNING this ring were upheld in a guilty conviction at trial.
Smearing Dean's wife as a former call girl, and by implication smearing Dean himself for--what, exactly?--is an ad hominem attack. Let's hear substantive arguments, please.
ReplyDeleteand they are now actively involving the U.S. in this escalated conflict,
ReplyDeleteBy "now actively involving the U.S.", do you mean that they're expediting a business deal made two years ago? Because that's what it looks like.
The attorney's name was Philip BAILLEY, not Melanson. Sorry, thought it seemed wrong as I'd posted it, and in fact, Philip Melanson is an author on the MLK JR assassination, and perhaps others.
ReplyDeleteTo the other anonymous: the argument was implicit in the facts I mentioned, as related in 'Silent Coup' and 'Secret Agenda.'
To recap, since the WG burglary we KNOW about was to repair or replace a PRIOR placed bug, there is already more to the story than is generally mentioned in the conventional wisdom on what happened there and who was responsible for that action (and the one before it, which generally goes unmentioned and thus entirely unexplained).
Since the interest of those tapping the phone there was for the phone not in Larry O'Brien's office, but in the other hall, the one which provably was used to run the call girl ring, which provably existed, and for which desk the WG burglars provably had the DESK KEY in their possession when arrested, the CW as to what the plumbers were looking for there seems wrong, and the 'Silent Coup' thesis much more likely correct in that regard.
(The alternate theories of the 'dirt' the plumbers were looking for has been variously claimed to be a) Larry's possession of the 'three tramps' pictures from Dallas, 11/23/63 from which E. Howard Hunt could be id'd as one of the 'tramps,' b) what evidence Larry may have had of the million dollar plus monies Howard Hughes had either given Nixon directly and/or provided his brother Donald, or lastly, c) evidence of Democrat perfidy and treason in the Vietnam matter. None of which would cause this secretary's phone and desk to be targeted, sfaics.)
Frankly, although the use of prostitutes to have favors owed to those providing them, and/or blackmail materials on them with the pictures and videos of such goings on, is well known, it is still something the PTB would prefer remain in the shadows of conjecture and fictional treatments. But it was G. Gordon Liddy's first plan in his Gemstone concept, to dedicate several millions of dollars to setting up motels, hookers and Democratic politicians, for taping, photographing, and blackmail. Presumably he learned of the concept from his days as a G-man under Hoover, and because this had long been CIA practice, and routine in spying operations worldwide.
Involving the WH counsel with one of the call girls could have been par for the course of such politically oriented prostitution rings, and it could have been done with or without any knowledge by Dean of her connection, until things were well underway.
Frankly, since the suit Dean brought was dismissed, with both sides paying their own legal expenses, the only means by which the truth or falsity of 'Silent Coup' could be determined-- a diligent review of Mo Biner's life and finances in the couple of years before Watergate happened under defense discovery motions-- will probably never happen now. However, that is far from the victory that Dean has claimed for his position, which false claim raises further questions.
Let me further clarify that this matter does not alter my agreement with Dean's political writings in general, nor in this particular matter. I do not raise it to cast doubt on Dean or his position in his newest book (just the attacks he's making anew on 'Silent Coup' as he promotes this new book).
I purchases both your book and Dean's yesterday. I finished yours and started on his. I, like your first commenter, was concerned about it being the continuation of the meme that "conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed". Dean, at least in the beginning, makes it clear that this in fact IS the conservative movement. This is in fact modern-day conservatism, and has been building to this for the past 30-some odd years. He talks about what conservatism use to be, what it might have been [he talks about its founding and how cobbled together its ideas were], what it could be, etc. I don't agree with him, of course, but it's an intelligent critique of the authoritarianism in the current conservative movement.
ReplyDeletesock-puppetry of teh penile implant en rio de janiero!!!! oooh la la!
ReplyDeletesome more lotion here, chico...
Life under Saddam: The pre-occupation version from some paid shill who hadn't lived there since she was a child some 16 years ago:
ReplyDeleteMoline woman recounts life under Saddam regime
UPDATED: 4/22/03 8:16 AM
MOLINE - As the war with Iraq comes to a close, the rebuilding begins.
Those who lived under the rule of Saddam Hussein will never forget the man who ruled with an iron fist.
Ramena Gabriel was born and raised under Saddam's rule. She has witnessed years of torture and looks forward to a new era.
"I was born in Saddam's regime," says Gabriel.
She was part of Saddam's new generation, born in Baghdad blocks from the statue toppled during the fall of Baghdad.
Gabriel left 13 years ago and has never looked back.
"The things I remember about Saddam's regime," Gabriel explains, "besides always being in fear, was we didn't have any choices."
Ramena says the Iraqi government would not allow her to chose her career path or school. Instead, she was forced to learn how to fight.
"I was 15 years old and trained how to use rifles and targets," says Gabriel. "We'd learn to shoot well and get prizes from Saddam."
"Everyone has to participate in war wanted everyone to be a vicious person--no choice."
Ramena remembers when government officials invaded their home.
"We had two huge pictures of Saddam," Gabriel notes. "One government official came over and said, "Do not put Jesus's picture above Saddam’s.’ It had to be on same level or Saddam's above. We had to please him in anyway we can."
Ramena looks forward to a peaceful future for Iraqis. She says the fear of Saddam will stay will with them long after his death. But the liberation is bittersweet.
"We are very excited he is gone but also sad to see pictures on TV. People are paying the price. But deep down inside I'm glad he's not there."
Ramena says she wants to be part of this liberation. She will return to Iraq this summer to help teach Iraqi women how a democracy works.
Life Under Saddam one year ago, from someone who never left Iraq, not some paid shill with the "memories of a child" like Ayn Rand. I wonder why we don't hear more from the paid shill these days.
ReplyDeleteLife Under Saddam
Many people asked me about life under Saddam. I’m going to talk about my life and my family’s and the ones I know from a neutral point of view. Anyway we had good days and bad days, not only bad days as many of you was thinking. everyone who did not get close to him or his family or his followers in anyway would not be hurt, this is a fact everyone knew. For me and my family we tried to get as far as possible even from his followers. this way we did not get hurt. As for the normal life, we had an almost normal life, we used to go out and stay late as long as we wanted. Security was very good, I can go alone and walk without fear of being kidnapped, Electricity was good, we never had a problem with water, We had few problems with Fuel but it was solved after few days and once the Goverment made coupons in order to solve the problem. Shops and resturant stayed open very late, female students at universities were free to wear what they like as long as it was decent, now many female students started wearing the hijab because they are afraid of being killed or beaten by religious groups. I summarized the positive things and now. Saddam made a big damage to the country that is not easy to be solved soon and it needs many years till things will start to become better. First of all there was a big corruption in all fields of government...
(He sounds like George Bush, but read it for yourself)
I don’t know what you will call our life under Saddam, a hell or better than now. For me removing him was a dream to me, I still have hope for the Future, till now things are worse than in the Saddam’s day in many ways, the possibility of being killed now is much more higher than in Saddam’s days. but I still dream for a better future for me and my daughter and family. I voted, yes, I’m happy to do it. but still I don’t know the result of this election whether will be better or worse to Iraq, I gave my voice to a secular party to prevent having a religious one, The future of Iraq is not certain yet, I’m still afraid of having a civil war between us.
PS thank you all for your encouraging words to me, I received many emails hence I can’t reply to all of them. thank you again.