Apparently, it isn't enough that the U.S. has been defending without reservation the wisdom of the Israeli bombing campaign in Lebanon. Nor is it enough that we have been unilaterally blocking a cease-fire and other diplomatic solutions. Nor is it enough that the American taxpayer pays for enormous amounts of Israel's military equipment -- from the planes flying over Lebanon to the tanks entering it. Now we are handing Israel the very bombs that they drop in order to flatten more and more of Lebanon, on a bomb-by-bomb basis:
The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.
The debate over whether the Israeli war should be "our war" is becoming increasingly academic. Once one country starts supplying another country with bombs in the middle of a war, both are participants -- much the way it is said, as imperfect as the comparison is, that Iran is "behind" the actions of Hezbollah. Whatever else might be true, the bombs that will be blowing up all sorts of things and people (beginning) in Lebanon over the next weeks, likely months and perhaps longer will have come directly from the U.S. And everyone, including the Muslims whose "hearts and minds" were ostensibly the object of our invasion of Iraq, will know that. That doesn't exactly seem like a sound strategy for diffusing Muslim animosity towards the U.S. -- which happens to be the Bush administration's stated goal.
There is palpable and quite unseemly excitement gripping neoconservatives over what the world sees as a horrible and tragic war, but which they glowingly call a "great opportunity." They have an extraordinary goal that they intend to fulfill -- to somehow induce the U.S. to vastly expand its Middle East war to include yet more countries which have not attacked us, and more amazingly, to do so notwithstanding the fact that our current little experiment in Iraq is, arguably, in the worst shape it has been in some time, perhaps since we invaded.
The boldness of their objective, its sheer audacity, is requiring neoconservatives to throw all caution to the wind, to really put all of their rhetorical cards on the table and be open about what they really think and want, unburdened by all of the lofty pretenses about the virtues of spreading democracy and winning hearts and minds. The real underlying premises and impulses of neoconservatism are being laid bare for all to see. And what they really want is more war and destruction -- lots and lots and lots of it -- to rain down mercilessly on their enemies and anyone nearby.
The terms they are using to describe their grand war visions are "annihilation" and "cleaning out." They have had enough with restraint and limited strikes and a war that has been depressingly and weakly confined just to Iraq and Afghanistan. They want full-scale, unrestrained Middle Eastern war -- they always have -- and they see this as their big chance to have it.
And the more one reads and listens to neoconservatives in their full-throated war calls, the more disturbing and repellent these ideas become. So many of them seem to be driven not even any longer by a pretense of a strategic goal, but by a naked, bloodthirsty craving for destruction and killing itself, almost as the end in itself. They urge massive military attacks on Lebanon, Syria, Iran -- and before that, Iraq -- knowing that it will kill huge numbers of innocent people, but never knowing, or seemingly caring, what comes after that. And the disregard for the lives of innocent people in those countries is so cavalier and even scornful that it is truly unfathomable, at times just plain disgusting. From a safe distance, they continuously call for -- and casually dismiss the importance of -- the deaths of enormous numbers of people without batting an eye. And for what?
What is Lebanon going to look like -- let alone Syria and Iran -- once we decimate large parts of their infrastructure, kill, maim and render homeless thousands upon thousands of their citizens, and bring down their governments? Who cares. Let's just stop whining and appeasing and get on with the action. They're bored with Iraq because the killing and destruction part are done with, so they want to move on. It's the war and bombing that interests and excites them. At least for the neoconservatives I've been reading and hearing -- and they have been among the most influential -- the "arguments" aren't much more substantive or complex than that. More on that in a moment.
Ever since neoconservatives began openly salivating over this "great opportunity" -- beginning, I'd say, with Bill Kristol's soon-to-be infamous "Our War" column, followed by Newt Gingrich's declaration that World War III has begun -- there has been a sense that their war-mongering stance is too extreme, too transparently irrational, to really influence the Bush administration's decisions. After the disaster in Iraq, Bush is in no mood to be led by the same people into more wars, that line of thought goes. Cheney and Rumsfeld have been beaten and even humbled by Iraq, and are too preoccupied with it, to entertain thoughts about Syria and Iran. Because of everything from limited resources to electoral concerns, it's been assumed and suggested that it is simply not plausible that the White House will take the crazed neoconservative path with regard to Lebanon, Syria and Iran.
That line of thought seems, at this point, to be more wishful thinking than reality. The administration is still composed largely of adherents to neoconservatism. John Bolton is at the U.N. for a reason. Richard Perle protegee Elliot Abrams is still running Middle East policy out of the White House. And, most importantly, anyone who thinks that Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld or George Bush have changed their mind about anything -- let alone about their biggest signature decision, the invasion of Iraq -- is attributing to them far more flexibility than they have ever before demonstrated. They see Iraq as a success and the rationale that led us there to be the right approach to the Middle East generally.
Neoconservatism is what brought us into Iraq, and there is no persuasive evidence that its influence in the administration has diminished. To the contrary, this article from the Washington Post yesterday reports that Bush and Cheney's working premises and assumptions with regard to the Middle East are indistinguishable from those evangelized by the likes of Daniel Pipes, Richard Perle, Kristol and Gingrich:
Jack Rosen, chairman of the American Jewish Congress, said Bush's statements reflect an unambiguous view of the situation. "He doesn't seem to allow his vision to be clouded in any way," said Rosen, a Democrat who has come to admire Bush's Middle East policy. "It follows suit. Israel is in the right. Hezbollah is in the wrong. Terrorists have to be eliminated, and he sees Israel fighting the war he would fight against terrorism."
George Bush is still on board with every neoconservative premise. And as Atrios put it yesterday:
Each crisis is an opportunity to wage a war they wanted to wage. The president believes Iraq is a success story. No one will tell him anything else.
Given what neoconservatism has revealed itself to be, that the administration continues to be driven by its "principles" is nothing short of alarming. The opportunities for even unintentional American involvement and escalation in this new war -- through miscalculation, deliberate provocation or simple accident -- are manifold. Add to that the warmongering rhetoric, our perceived proxy fighting through Israel, and the fact that we have 140,000 soldiers sitting in the middle of a virtual Shiite-Sunni civil war in Iraq, and it is not hyperbole to say that it would be miraculous if we did not become involved in expanded hostilities.
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that we are now seeking full-on unrestrained war, to be fought more aggressively and less "delicately" than the prior and current wars. The neoconservatives are expressly saying so.
When we last heard from Shelby Steele, for instance, he was arguing in a column widely trumpeted by neoconservatives that America's problem is that it suffers from too much "white guilt," which prevents us from fighting wars such as the one in Iraq with the unrestrained "ferocity" we ought to be using, i.e., that we fail to use "the full measure of our military power." In his Townhall column yesterday, Thomas Sowell takes that a step further and, in the context of Israel's bombing of Lebanon, identifies the real problem as being that we don't "annihilate" our enemies -- using that word twice within two paragraphs:
Was World War II ended by cease-fires or by annihilating much of Germany and Japan? Make no mistake about it, innocent civilians died in the process. . .
There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated. . . .
One can find this sentiment everywhere among neoconservatives, who have now really released their war-loving id. The true enemy are those who stand in the way of all-out war, and all-out war is the only way to achieve peace. Peace is War and War is Peace. Listen to Sowell:
"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements -- that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war.
An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions.
In the neoconservative mind, wars happen because we don't annihilate enough people, because we are insufficiently "ferocious," because we place limits on the "the full measure of our military power." Those who oppose such unrestrained destruction are, to use Bill Kristol's description from his new column yesterday, "weak horses" (quoting Osama bin Laden). In the Jerusalem Post yesterday, Daniel Pipes complained that each time it excitingly looks like Israel will finally wipe out the evil-doers, we instead get "an orgy of Israeli remorse and reconsideration, followed by a quiet return to appeasement and retreat." Victor Davis Hanson celebrates how great it is that "Israel is at last being given an opportunity to unload on jihadists."
Most striking is the casualness, even the self-satisfied joy, with which they regard the suffering, maiming, and slaughter of other people -- not "The Terrorists," but people whom even they acknowledge are innocent of wrongdoing. Here is National Review's Cliff May almost bored with having to acknowledge the irrelevant fact that hundreds, more likely thousands, of Lebanese are likely to be killed by the campaign which he urges from a safe distance:
Yes, innocent Lebanese are suffering in this conflict. That suffering at least should produce some good results. Lebanon’s liberation from the suffocating embrace of Hezbollah and its foreign sponsors would qualify.
I am almost done reading John Dean's now #2 NYT best-selling new book, Conservatives Without Conscience, and will likely have a review up tomorrow. But one of the central points he makes is highly relevant here -- that what is called the "conservative movement" these days has no real unifying or cohesive ideas, but instead, what binds it and defines it is an authoritarian impulse to identify the Enemy (the Terrorist, the Liberal, the Communist, the illegal immigrant), followed by a swarming, hateful, rage-fueled desire to destroy it:
Given the rather distinct beliefs of the various conservative factions, which have only grown more complex with time, how have conservatives succeeded in coalescing as a political force? The simple answer is through the power of negative thinking, and specifically, the ability to find common enemies. . . . Today's conservatives. . . define themselves by what they oppose.
That is clearly not only the Republican electoral strategy again, but more disturbingly, it appears to be the full extent of the neoconservative foreign policy. There are bad people over there. The Enemy. And we need to attack and kill them without restraint, regardless of the cost or consequences or alternatives or what might come after that. And anyone who doesn't agree, or who wants to negotiate with the Enemy, is weak, an appeaser, someone who likely is even on the side of the Enemy. That is the crux of our foreign policy at this point.
Beyond all of that, our neoconservative policy in the Middle East has become as incoherent as it is bloodthirsty. The President argued in December of last year that "by helping Iraqis to build a democracy, we will gain an ally in the war on terror." But the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, has "forcefully denounced" Israel for the bombing campaign which we are defending and supplying -- a fact which led a confused and enraged Laura Ingraham last night on Bill O'Reilly's show to protest the unfairness that the person she called "our guy in Iraq" was supporting the other side.
What is the Iraqi Government's position going to be if we wage war on its Iranian ally? I doubt it will be what we would want from an "ally in the war on terror." So what are we hoping to achieve in Iraq? The whole project makes no sense because there really never was anything that came after the invasion and destruction part.
And the supposed Middle Eastern allies we do have -- the ones who issued the terse anti-Hezbollah statements which neoconservatives have been parading around -- are not democracies, but instead, are the tyrants, dictators, and emirates whom we support and prop up. Conversely, the democratically elected governments in the Middle East beyond Iraq -- such as Lebanon, the Palestinians, and one could even add Iran -- are on the other side of this conflict. And two Middle Eastern democracies, Israel and Lebanon, are at war with one another.
All of this is the exact opposite of the glorious neoconservative promises that invading and bombing countries and bringing democracy to the Middle East will foster pro-U.S. alliances and ensure peace. And literally, the only thing which neoconservatives seem to want to do in response to all of this patent failure is bomb and invade more and more countries because that's worked so well so far.
One can easily lose sight of how bizarre it is that we now so frequently debate whether we should attack countries who have not attacked us nor pose any real threat to attack us. As was true for the "debates" over whether we should use torture (or even "debates" over whether the President can break the law), when something is advocated openly and frequently enough, even the most reprehensible and previously insane ideas can become acceptable and mainstream. We have become a country that now casually and without much trauma debates which countries we should preemptively invade next.
Neoconservatism in its basest and most unadorned form very well may be dangerous, morally repugnant, and completely irrational. But it has also been a leading influence in our country's foreign policy decisions over the last five years, and there is no sign that that has changed. Quite the contrary. The White House seems to be operating in accordance with the neoconservative script as much as ever, and it is hard to imagine why that would stop any time soon.
UPDATE: Anonymous Liberal argues that this event will be seen as the moment when neoconservatives lost all credibility by abandoning any pretenses of rationality or reasonableness. That might be, but he also quotes Paul Krugman today as pointing out:
Mr. Kristol is, of course, a pundit rather than a policymaker.But there's every reason to suspect that what Mr. Kristol saying public is what Mr. Cheney says in private.
If the neoconservatives are articulating crazed and extremist ideas publicly, it is highly likely that it reflects what the Vice President and Defense Secretary are saying privately.
A.L. also links to this excellent video, where Chris Matthews and Pat Buchanan angrily highlight the intellecutal and moral bankruptcy of neoconservatives in a way that ought to be much more common. I don't recall Matthews doing anything of the sort prior to the invasion (although he did question its rationale more than most national journalists), but better late than never. By contrast, Buchanan, whatever else one might think of him, has been among the most prescient and insightful commentators on Bush administration foreign policy in the Middle East for several years now.
Highly depressing to me. What if the president simply did what was right?
ReplyDeleteGlenn, as I read your post I'm weeping with grief. I see no way to fight them.(the warmongers, here and in the ME) I see no way out. The horrors will continue and get worse, with peace loving people on all sides able to do nothing more than stand on the sidelines as witnesses to this moral failing on a massive scale, trying mightily to be heard over the din of bombs falling on innocent civilians, and getting nothing more for their efforts than to be called appeasers, or worse.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think can be done? Do you think massive demonstrations will have an impact? How about boycotting? Please give us your ideas on what we can do-I think if we remain inactive or passive in the face of this, we will all go mad.
All of that said, is there a way out? If they have concluded that they will lose control over Congress in November, mustn't they get this game started ASAP? That's not to say a Democratically controlled Congress will provide a sufficient bulwark against an administration that views the Congress as irrelevant, but perhaps it might change the balance enough to slow things down. But will that happen quickly enough or will it be too late - leaving the Congressional debate not focused on whether we should be at war in Iran and Syria but whether we should "stay the course" in a war we started in, say, September.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I dropped you an email last night with a Newsweek blurb (albeit small) about their 'blog watch' and it pointed out an example of right-wing hate mongering, violence, etc.
ReplyDeleteI know you recently posted abuot journalists constant focus on lefty-blog flame wars and foul language and was hoping someone would start covering some of the rhetoric on the right.
Again, it's small, but I think you'll be appreciative of what exactly they pointed out.
By the time we can have elections, the neocons will have foreclosed any course of action other than the one they've presented us with, which is -- as you so eloquently point out, Glenn -- endless, endless blood and savagery without any rational justification.
ReplyDeleteVery like Israeli settlement policy, it seems to me. Put enough "facts on the ground," and you'll never have to argue about whose territory this is.
We tell them that they should be more careful what they wish for, but they aren't listening.
It's Hitler's point: If das deutsche Volk isn't strong enough to defend the Reich, let them perish with it.
Glenn finishes with
ReplyDeleteNeoconservatism in its basest and most unadorned form very well may be dangerous, morally repugnant, and completely irrational.
There's another term for all this:
Complete, utter madness.
Pity they have a bunch of willing tools in the White House and Congress to bring their insanity to fuition.
Shooter242: If one doesn't like neo-cons, one shouldn't encourage their opponents.
ReplyDeleteAh, extortion at the point of a gun. You're very much mistaken if you think this will persuade anyone. Ask the Palestinians, if you don't believe me. Your way ends in ruin. I may not be around to see it, but you most definitely will.
shooter, I'm talking about innocent civilians anywhere.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think can be done? Do you think massive demonstrations will have an impact? How about boycotting?
ReplyDeleteI think Democrats have no choice but to make this a preeminent election issue - since Republicans intend to anyway. Republicans will argue - yet again - that those who oppose their glorious war plans are weak, appeasing, terrorist-friendly losers. Democrats have to ask Americans whether they really want to take what we've done in Iraq - which they largely hate - and bring it to 3 or 4 other countries at least.
That's a debate Democrats should win. But first they have to convince themselves not to be afraid to engage it forcefully and unapologetically. That is something that have great difficulty doing, to put it mildly.
Glenn, I dropped you an email last night with a Newsweek blurb (albeit small) about their 'blog watch' and it pointed out an example of right-wing hate mongering, violence, etc.
Thanks for that. I posted about that a couple of days ago (in a post entitled "Blogs and Media Narratives").
To shooter242 -
ReplyDeleteAnd, incidentially, read the following before you even try to defend your comment:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2222133
Can I presume you are referring to bombs falling on innocent Israeli's?
ReplyDeleteI don't konw of anyone who defends Hezbollah's rockets or who thinks that Israel has no right to defend itself. But do you recognize any limits on what that justifies? Can Israel kill 100,000 civilians in Lebanon? 500,000? Can they use tactical nuclear weapons on Syria and Iran? No matter what they do, are you going to continue to point to Hezbollah rockets to justify it, or do you recognize any limits on what they are justified in doing? If so, what are they?
And all of that is independent, of course, of whether the U.S. should be involved in the Israel-Hezbollah border conflicts.
If one doesn't like neo-cons, one shouldn't encourage their opponents.
ReplyDelete--Shooter
Their "opponents" would be about two thirds of the US population. Should a Democratic Republic just stand by with their fingers in their noses while their Democratic Republic is being usurped by a small minority of crazed, bloodthirsty megalomaniacs?
As always great analysis Glenn.
ReplyDeleteAs someone seeing this happening from an other country (Italy) is pretty scary to see what is waiting down the road...
If the good people of the USA (as you and most of the people I had the pleasure to read here) do not found the strenght to shove this folly down the troath of the neocons the future sure looks quite dreaful.
Glenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteNow we are handing Israel the very bombs that they drop in order to flatten more and more of Lebanon, on a bomb-by-bomb basis.
But contrary to the implication of your piece, these are not weapons of "annihilation" -- they are precision-guided weapons that are used to strike targets with increased discrimination.
You seem to imply that either (1) it would be better for Israel to adopt the Hizbollah tactic of indiscriminately firing missiles into civilian targets; or (2) we should back off and leave Israel and Lebanon to their fates, whatever they may be.
In the battle between Hizbollah and Israel, you may advocate that the U.S. should be "impartial," but without being a neoconservative I would disagree.
While bombs are not a substitute for strategy or political solutions, it seems to me that supplying precision-guided weapons to Israel is more likely to reduce civilian casualties than to increase it.
Thanks for the insight into the Neocon mindset.
ReplyDeleteOver the last few years, it has been truly astonishing how the Neocons, who used to be a fringe, radical element of the Republican party, were able occupy center stage, unimpeded by traditional conservatives like Scowcroft, treated with too much deference by the media.
I think this happened because loyalty to the Republican party is a trump card over all other suits (reason, experience, tradition, etc). For instance, why did Colin Powell abandon his own doctrine and get on board with these crazies?
I think John Dean is on the right track. Too many conservatives are slaves to their own authoritarian impulses.
obijuan: While bombs are not a substitute for strategy or political solutions, it seems to me that supplying precision-guided weapons to Israel is more likely to reduce civilian casualties than to increase it.
ReplyDeleteNo weapon is perfect. Things not only go wrong with the weapons but circumstances on the ground change radically second by second.
Besides this rather obvious comment, you miss Glenn's point, which seems to be that the weapons are wrong because the bombing is wrong--whether or not those bombs are smart or otherwise.
But first they have to convince themselves not to be afraid to engage it forcefully and unapologetically
ReplyDeleteWill the Democrats ever overcome their fear and express what the majority of Americans, much less their base, are thinking and feeling?
That is ever the question. Can we depend upon them to do so? Recent history argues against it.
But do you recognize any limits on what that justifies? Can Israel kill 100,000 civilians in Lebanon? 500,000? Can they use tactical nuclear weapons on Syria and Iran? No matter what they do, are you going to continue to point to Hezbollah rockets to justify it, or do you recognize any limits on what they are justified in doing? If so, what are they?
At some point, one has to recognize the reality of a situation, shooter. The might and power of not only Israel, but the US, is being brought to bear on Hezbollah, and by extension, Lebanese civilians, whose deaths are outpacing Israeli civilian deaths by about 15-1 (as of a few days ago, according to Robert Fisk) Can the sort of brutality described by Glenn be morally justified without abdicating one's conscience? I don't think so.
While bombs are not a substitute for strategy or political solutions, it seems to me that supplying precision-guided weapons to Israel is more likely to reduce civilian casualties than to increase it.
ReplyDeletePerhaps. But nobody is going to think that we're giving Israel these bombs in order to minimize civilian casualties, and that just isn't the reason. That's particularly true since precision-guided bombs aren't the only way in which we arm Israel. And it seems that the real reason they want them is because of what the NYT article reports - that they are the only bombs that can do the job:
Israel’s need for precision munitions is driven in part by its strategy in Lebanon, which includes destroying hardened underground bunkers where Hezbollah leaders are said to have taken refuge, as well as missile sites and other targets that would be hard to hit without laser and satellite-guided bombs.
Sure, in theory and in general, precision-guided bombs enable one to minimize civilian casualities. But that all depends on how one uses them - on what is targeted. And, as I said, whatever else is true, those bombs are going to kill a lot of people, including Lebanese civilians. And we are the ones feeding them to Israel.
And, by your rationale, shouldn't we also give precision-guided bombs to Hezbollah - and, for that matter, every other country - so that they don't have to indiscriminately lob their bombs anymore but can direct them more precisely?
Glenn, Your article verges on the brink of asking what rationale the neoconservatives are working with in purveying so much destruction. Many neoconservatives call it "creative dertuction." The theory behind this tactic seems to be the following: if you create enough chaos you will thereby create conditions conducive to the neoconservative understanding of "democracy."
ReplyDeleteAccording to one source,
Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen said: "We tear down the old order.... Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be...).... We must destroy them to advance our historic mission," adding that "It is time once again to export the democratic revolution." ... In 2002 (before the invasion of Iraq}, Ledeen called for the "creative destruction" of Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
That bit about traditions seems distinctly anti-conservative, given the latter's esteem for tradition. Ledeen's statement is baldly nihilistic and terroristic.
It's something of a cliche to say that you know the ends by the means. But every cliche contains a kernel of truth. If we can say anything about the ends of the neoconservatives, it must resemble something of the means they use. That is, unjust means portend unjust ends.
Pablo's right. Iraqis wish we would stay there forever.
ReplyDeleteNo, not forever. But certainly for now.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/16/news/sunni.php
Of course, Sunni and Shia always romped gleefully together in fields of flowers with rivers of chocolate before mean old Dubya went and removed their peaceful, benevolent dictator. And throughout everywhere else in the Muslim world they constantly demonstrate their intersectarian love and respect for each other.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Well let's stop and think about that for a moment. Ever since 1948 Israel has been simultaneously threatened, invaded, bombed, and then restrained from retaliating and eliminating those that threaten it. The end result is a situation such as this where apparently Israel is supposed to suffer in silence while being attacked. After sixty some years of being the ME whipping boy, it should not be surprising that those being injured want it to stop. I don't blame them a bit.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about the thoughts of Israelis, but about American neoconservatives. Israel may be justified in taking certain military action. That doesn't mean that the U.S. That's because they are two different countries.
Glenn: Israel may be justified in taking certain military action. That doesn't mean that the U.S. That's because they are two different countries.
ReplyDeleteThis is the glaring inconsistency in the neocon pro-Israel stance. But it's an inconsistency they have worked at covering over. That is, that US interests equal Israel's. They have done so by perpetrating the illusion that all Moslems are the same and have the same goals.
As anyone who watched Anderson Cooper's piece on Hezbollah last night knows, Hezbollah--a Shiite Moslem faction--does not agree with al-Qaeda--a Sunni Moslem faction. Indeed, Hezbollah condemned the 911 attacks. In numerous public statements, its leader, Nasrallah, says that the US is not Hezbollah's enemy, Israel is.
What the US' unconditional support of this invasion does is to promote the illusion that all Moslems are the same, have the same interests, and are out to kill Americans. Not so.
Has anyone asked Bush if he started this war?
ReplyDeleteThink a bit. Israel started this campaign after a fairly routine provocation, one they've weathered many times in the past. Suddenly the U.S. and Britain are completely onboard, including massive arms shipments to Israel.
I think this is how it went down:
Israel: "Man, fucking Hezbollah are acting up again."
Bush: "Go to war. Blow up the whole country. We've got your back."
Israel: "You're kidding me. Really?"
Bush: "Really. We need a distraction from Iraq. We'll ship you weapons, as much as you want, for free - we'll bury the cost in a future Iraq appropriate, a must-pass bill. We'll bat for you on the world stage."
Israel: "All right, if you say so, let's do this thing."
They were not engaging in wholesale slaughter of one another under Saddam.
ReplyDeleteRight. It was a one sided affair, with Sunni slaughtering Shia.
In fact the bloodiest times under Saddam's rule have come when the US meddled in Iraq's affairs.
I suppose you've never heard of the Iran-Iraq war?
The slaughter of the marsh Arabs when King George I encouraged them to rebel against Saddam right after Gulf War I, then he refused to prevent Saddam from annihilating them.
Saddam did his greatest damage to the Marsh Arabs by diverting their water and emptying the marshes.
The hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died due to US-led sanctions between 1991 and 2003.
Are US led sanctions anything like UN Securtiy Council imposed sanctions? Because that's what Iraq was under. And why was that, again?
it removed their biggest rival from the chessboard, freeing them up to make more mischief in the ME (Lebanon for starters)...
Wait a minute. I though the war in Lebanon was bloodthirsty Neocons at work! Now you tell me Iran is behind it? You'd better let Rick Ellensburg know about this.
Oh? And who exactly were you going to demonstrate against and boycott?
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say, your statement above is not credible.
So sayeth the very credible shooter. I'm crushed. Not.
In fact, I want to boycott whatever would most hurt the neocons. Their blood lust could result in a holocaust, engulfing the entire ME. And that includes innocent Israeli citizens, in case you didn't know.
Glenn, look at the map illustrating the article by Ralph Peters - http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about the thoughts of Israelis, but about American neoconservatives.
ReplyDeleteCan't you read Israeli minds, Glenn? Is it just Neocons, or what?
Exactly how does your "gift" work?
From shooter242 at 11:26am:
ReplyDeleteBut the converse would absolutely be true, and therein lies the difference between them and us.
So, the entire muslim world - including the majority of the Central Asian republics, Indonesia, and several minorities in China - has engaged in an all-out war with the US since whenever?
Gee, what else did I miss? The colonization of Mars?
I notice you didn't dispute a single point I raised about the US 'encouraging' all this. At least you're honest enough not to completley deny reality.
Glenn, you attribute a statement by Sowell to Steele. Not important, just a niggly.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the impression that the Cheney administration has had its fill of world wars of choice, at least for the moment.
ReplyDeleteFunny, I’m not getting the same impression as Billmon, but he wrote that before Cheney’s recent speech about using this issue to call for keeping Republicans in Congress.
If these people can convince themselves that Iraq is “a success” then, quite frankly, there’s nothing keeping them from thinking that going to war with Iran and Syria would eventually bring about “peace and stability” in the region.
Like Glenn says, “Neoconservatism in its basest and most unadorned form very well may be dangerous, morally repugnant, and completely irrational…….The White House seems to be operating in accordance with the neoconservative script as much as ever, and it is hard to imagine why that would stop any time soon.”
From what I hear (I don’t watch it) the White House Network (Fox) has been promoting war with Iran pretty much non-stop, which may be an indication of where we’re headed.
Now that may be just to use this issue to get “the base” to the polls, but now that some are calling Bush “a wimp” for not doing more, we could see him taking actions against Iran to appease the “fired-up base.” (In short, he backs himself into a corner.)
Thus, this “world-war” rhetoric becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. And, like others here have commented, I see nothing to stop it once it has taken on a life of its own.
The invasion of Iraq sure had lots of “unintended consequences” but I think that’s nothing to what we’ll see if we go to war with Iran and Syria.
And remember, Ariel Sharon assured the opposition party that the invasion of Lebanon would last only 48 hours – they were there 18 years.
But permanent war is what the Republicans are relying on to keep them in permanent power – at least that is what they believe, and why they are so dangerous.
From shooter242 at 11:39am:
ReplyDeleteSomething went wrong and is being corrected, what part of that are you having a problem with?
The fact our well-trained, well-armed troops in Iraq are receiving orders like this, and apparently carrying them out is what I personally have a problem with. The fact the military is only now stepping in, while appropriate, doesn't negate what's already happened.
I suspect you by contrast are just upset the news is even coming to light.
shooter: I would presume escalation would continue until the rockets cease. Obviously how far it goes is up to Hezbollah.
ReplyDeleteNo, there's much evidence that Israel was a co-partner in this escalation. They re-occupy Gaza, kill Palestinians again, lay siege to Gazan cities by shutting off electricity, etc.
There's plenty of provocation to go around in all of this. If the US really wanted peace in the region, it'd use its tremendous good will with Israel to have them moderate their barabaric invasion of Lebanon.
Neo-conservatism has finally jumped the shark.
ReplyDeletePoor, little harmless Israel, just trying to mind its own business:
ReplyDelete"Memory is supposed to stop in its tracks at June 28, 2006.
"Let’s go on a brief excursion into pre-history. I’m talking about June 20, 2006, when Israeli aircraft fired at least one missile at a car in an attempted extrajudicial assassination on a road between Jabalya and Gaza City. The missile missed the car. Instead it killed three Palestinian children and wounded 15.
"Back we go again to June 13, 2006. Israeli aircraft fired missiles at a van in another attempted extrajudicial assassination. The successive barrages killed nine innocent Palestinians.
"Now we’re really in the dark ages, reaching far, far back to June 9, 2006, when Israel shelled a beach in Beit Lahiya killing 8 civilians and injuring 32.
"That’s just a brief trip down Memory Lane, and we trip over the bodies of twenty dead and forty-seven wounded, all of them Palestinians, most of them women and children."
Yesterday I read this piece at TCS, and simply went slack-jawed. Did you know that the bloodbath and horror in Iraq -- even if that little democracy-building thing isn't working out so well "operationally" -- has actually been a huge boost for U.S. foreign policy and will lead to defeat of all the nasty terrorists in the ME? We just need some more, lots more, war, and our Iraq adventure, praise be unto God, has allowed that.
ReplyDeleteWhile the success of Iraq's democracy hangs in the balance from an operational perspective, the strategic advantages created by the invasion of Iraq are working very favorably for the US in the current Israeli-Lebanon crisis in very tangible ways.... Opportunities forsaken are opportunities lost forever, as MacArthur was sometimes rumored to say. But let there be no mistake: this moment would not have been possible without the invasion of Iraq, and the destruction of Hezbollah is very much in the interest of the United States and that of any other nation that abhors terrorism.
For clear-headed thinking from a former supporter of neocon foreign policy (and an antidote to the sort of Alice-in-Wonderland tripe at TCS), check out Gregory Djerejian at Belgravia Dispatch; just keep scrolling.
I can't help but wonder if Lebanon is our version of 1930s Spain.
ReplyDeleteHow many Muslims are there in the world shooter? How many would you be comfortable with allowing to live?
ReplyDeleteThe terms they are using to describe their grand war visions are "annihilation" and "cleaning out." They have had enough with restraint and limited strikes and a war that has been depressingly and weakly confined just to Iraq and Afghanistan. They want full-scale, unrestrained Middle Eastern war -- they always have -- and they see this as their big chance to have it.
ReplyDeleteAnd the more one reads and listens to neoconservatives in their full-throated war calls, the more disturbing and repellent these ideas become.
It almost makes a few well placed shots aimed at a few placed up against a brick wall look downright sensible, surgical and conservative. You just have to know when to stop. Always the difficult part.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteWhat part of your position don't I understand?
Well let me see. This part, I think:
If you'd just let us take your house and your land without complaining about it, or trying to take it back by force, we won't kill you all.
Now, we're only taking your house and your land because we got the UN to grant us sovereignty over the country you live in, a sovereignty which by definition excludes you, and then, with your co-religionists and fellow Arabs, you attacked us. We won that particular war, so you should shut up and recognize our eternal right to decide what goes around here. If you don't, we'll take your house and your land, and if you get violent about that, we'll....
Yes, that's the part I don't understand. If the Palestinians refuse to accept this generous bargain, Israel will kill them all.
If we refuse to accept it, shooter will call us traitors and weaklings, and his friends will suggest that someone should kill us all.
I don't understand that part either.
phd9: How many Muslims are there in the world shooter? How many would you be comfortable with allowing to live?
ReplyDeleteYou assume here that many like shooter are reasonable. It is a commonplace among neocons to use the saying, "kill them all, let God sort them out." Seriously. The depth of hatred and racism runs deep in these circles. The sad fact is that extremist writers like Coulter/Limbaugh/Savage, etc. have mainstreamed sentiments like this.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteBut are we different "tribes"?
Bwahahaha! Shooter has how many pairs of cowboy boots in his closet?
We should take a lesson from the past. In World War II the Japanese were, if anything, even more fanatical than today's breed of terrorists. Their kamikazes were the original suicide bombers and caused far more damage than today's jihadists. Every indication was that they intended to fight to the last man, woman and child. Two strategically placed nuclear bombs shattered their homicidal delusions and brought them to their senses in the space of a few days.
ReplyDeleteTwo strategically placed nukes in the obvious two places would have a similar effect today.
Many of the remarks from the neoconservatives simply amplify the fact that this administration is tone deaf with regards to diplomacy. What Bush and his apologists see as diplomacy is simply seen as an expansion of the neoconservative template for foreign policy.
ReplyDeleteRead an analysis that explains the reasons there must soon be a shift towards real diplomacy in U.S. foreign policy strategy…here:
www.thoughttheater.com
Excellent column. It is almost impossible to see out of the other end of this tunnel. For sure, the World will not fast backward to were we were in 2000.
ReplyDeleteC.L. It is a commonplace among neocons to use the saying, "kill them all, let God sort them out."
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming that someone as well read as yourself knows the historical origin of that phrase, right? The Catholic church. The Papal legate in 1217 to the commander of the the Pope's army pusuing the Cathar heretics into the town of Bezier when he was asked by the commander how his men could tell the good Catholics from the Cathars.
"Kill them all, God will recognize his own."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWe should take a lesson from the past. In World War II the Japanese were, if anything, even more fanatical than today's breed of terrorists.
Primarily because they were lied to by their government about what Americans would do to them if captured. They lived in a fascist authoritarian state where questioning authority was unthinkable.
shooter: Of course I'm assuming you believe the Israeli's are entitled to protect themselves. Not a sure thing from what I've seen so far.
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis can protect themsleves by seeking peace instead of inflaming hatred towards them by their expansionist policies in Palestine and leveling other democratic governments like Lebanon. Israel has followed an insane policy of counter-terrorism that has not brought more security but less--not more more peace but more conflict. How many years does it take for them to learn that their current policy simply does not work?
OTOH I think there is some evidence from Israeli sources that, from the beginning of its founding, Israel has never had as its goal an equitable and just resolution of the "Palestinian problem." Ben-Gurion himself said Israel should contain much of Lebanon. ="According to Lenin's Tomb:
Ben Gurion on the borders of Eretz Israel:
"[T]o the north, the Litani river, to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al 'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan." (Quoted, Nur Masalha, Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of "Transfer" in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948, 1992, p 87).
SHOOTER - I would presume escalation would continue until the rockets cease. Obviously how far it goes is up to Hezbollah.
ReplyDeleteSo if Hezbollah shot one missle every 6 months into Israel, and the Israelis eventually retaliated with a tactical nuclear weapon dropped on Lebanaon and Syria (after gradually escalating the attacks to no avail), you would say that that was morally justifiable?
I doubt we'll do anything other than provide arms, but I'll tell you that I'm sick of the Muslims attacking Israeli's and continuing the sickness of the ME. It is the greatest source of misery in this world.
As I wrote the other day, I don't deny for a minute that the Israelis have real and legitimate threats to their security and a right to defend against those. But there is an aspect of proportionality to every moral code.
You don't put someone in prison for 20 years for jaywalking, even though they did wrong. You don't shoot someone in the head who purposely steps on your toe, even though they did wrong. You don't bomb a whole city block in order to kill a murderer, even though they did wrong. And you don't decimate an entire nation because of a few rockets that are being shot by a terrorist group inside of it, even though they did wrong.
Proporationality does NOT mean that one is obligated to use exactly the same force that is used against you. Israel has the right to use more force against Hezbollah if it can. But it is not entitled to act without restraint and then point to the original wrongful act as justification. That analysis ignores the critical role proportionality plays.
And again - all of that is about what Israel is justified in doing in the Middle East, not what the U.S. ought to do, which is the point of my post.
Shooter242 asks, "So let me pose a hypothetical. If Muslims everywhere declared a cease fire, would you expect. . .the US to use it as an opportunity to kill more people?
ReplyDeleteNo. "
Well, let's see...We attacked Iraq, and have killed thousands of Iraqis, none of whom were a threat to us, none of whom were fomenting for war against us, and none of whom HAD EVER attacked us. Saddam allowed U.N. Inspectors in to verify he had no WMD--which they indeed verified, partially prior to our illegal invasion, and wholly subsequently (twice!)--and yet, despite there never being a shred of evidence that Iraq MIGHT be a threat to us, or that it had any DESIRE to be a threat to us, and certainly there being no evidence Iraq had ever IN THE PAST been a threat to us, Li'L Butch and Big DICK launched their premeditated and long-desired war against Iraq. (Li'l Butch later lied repeatedly about Saddam's apparent perfidiousness by claiming "we gave him a chance to have the inspectors in, but he refused, so after a time we had no choice...blah blah bullshit and baloney...")
I think one reason we attacked Iraq rather than North Korea, say, is BECAUSE we knew they were powerless against us. Like a bully in a bar sucker-punching some hapless drunk, it allows for a cheap "victory" and the bully feels a brief thrill of conquest, without his having really put himself at risk. (Other reasons we attacked Iraq, of course, were because of their oil, and because we wanted a geographical base of operations in the region.)
So, to answer your rhetorical question, YES, I think an announced ceasefire by ANY nation who possessed resources or geography we desired would result in a greater likelihood that we would plot to war against them. WE are killers and terrorists, par excellence, "Shooter."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWe should take a lesson from the past. In World War II the Japanese were, if anything, even more fanatical than today's breed of terrorists. Their kamikazes were the original suicide bombers and caused far more damage than today's jihadists. Every indication was that they intended to fight to the last man, woman and child. Two strategically placed nuclear bombs shattered their homicidal delusions and brought them to their senses in the space of a few days.
Two strategically placed nukes in the obvious two places would have a similar effect today.
This entire comment, as misguided and inaccurate on every count as it is possible to be, should be reposted for all to see.
People this ignorant should not be allowed on the internets. There should be an IQ test to turn the damn computer on.
shooter..Reality? The reality is that a terrorist organization has unilaterally attacked a country while enlisting the Lebanese as human shields. Presumably against their will.
ReplyDeleteshooter, go back and click on the link provided by tresy for a little real history of the conflict. You are relying much too much on msm narratives. The chronology of events described within that link are indisputable. Let's go a little further back, shall we?
In 1982 Israel had a problem. Yasir Arafat, headquartered in Beirut, was making ready to announce that the PLO was prepared to sit down with Israel and embark on peaceful, good faith negotiations towards a two-state solution.
Israel didn’t want a two-state solution, which meant -- if UN resolutions were to be taken seriously -- a Palestinian state right next door, with water, and contiguous territory. So Israel decided chase the PLO right out of Lebanon. It announced that the Palestinian fighters had broken the year-long cease-fire by lobbing some shells into northern Israel.
Palestinians had done nothing of the sort. I remember this very well, because Brian Urquhart, at that time assistant secretary general of the United Nations, in charge of UN observers on Israel’s northern border, invited me to his office on the 38th floor of the UN hq in mid-Manhattan and showed me all the current reports from the zone. For over a year there’d been no shelling from north of the border. Israel was lying.
With or without a pretext Israel wanted to invade Lebanon. So it did, and rolled up to Beirut. It shelled Lebanese towns and villages and bombed them from the air. Sharon’s forces killed maybe 20,000 people, and let Lebanese Christians slaughter hundreds of Palestinian refugees in the camps of Sabra and Chatilla.
The killing got so bad that even Ronald Reagan awoke from his slumbers and called Tel Aviv to tell Israel to stop. Sharon gave the White House the finger by bombing Beirut at the precise times -- 2.42 and 3.38 -- of two UN resolutions calling for a peaceful settlement on the matter of Palestine.
When the dust settled over the rubble, Israel bunkered down several miles inside Lebanese sovereign territory, which it illegally occupied, in defiance of all UN resolutions, for years, supervising a brutal local militia and running its own version of Abu Graibh, the torture center at the prison of Al-Khiam.
Occupy a country, torture its citizens and in the end you face resistance. In Israel’s case it was Hezbollah, and in the end Hezbollah ran Israel out of Lebanon, which is why a lot of Lebanese regard Hezbollah not as terrorists but as courageous liberators.
The years roll by and Israel does its successful best to destroy all possibility of a viable two-state solution. It builds illegal settlements. It chops up Palestine with Jews-only roads. It collars all the water. It cordons off Jerusalem. It steals even more land by bisecting Palestinian territory with its “fence”. Anyone trying to organize resistance gets jailed, tortured, or blown up.
Sick of their terrible trials, Palestinians elect Hamas, whose leaders make it perfectly clear that they are ready to deal on the basis of the old two-state solution, which of course is the one thing Israel cannot endure. Israel doesn’t want any “peaceful solution” that gives the Palestinians anything more than a few trashed out acres surrounded with barbed wire and tanks, between the Israeli settlements whose goons can murder them pretty much at will.
You want more? From people who know wherof they speak:
South African lawyers condemn Israel's flagrant breach of humanitarian law
The hollow justification of the capture of one Israeli soldier does not legitimise the destruction of electricity generation plants, water purification facilities, the bombing of schools and universities and the imprisonment of half of the elected members of the Palestine Legislative Assembly. Gaza is a huge refugee camp consisting of approximately 1.2 million people cramped into an area 45 km long, 5-12 km in width. Since Israel s so called withdrawal from Gaza, it has been converted into a huge open air prison with Israel controlling all its borders and airspace. Israel has fired hundreds of artillery shells into the Gaza strip. It is an uneven struggle of F16 jets, attack helicopters and tanks against persons armed with AK 47s , RPGs and crude missiles. The captured Israeli soldier was a serving member of an occupying army. Israel has imprisoned thousands of Palestinians, including women and children. Some of them sentenced by so called military courts and many in administrative detention.
*******
Our triumph over apartheid gave them renewed hope for their own struggle. Atrocities are being committed daily in Gaza, the continued building of the apartheid wall has been condemned as illegal by the International Court of Justice, marriages between Palestinians in the occupied territories and within Israel are prohibited, (which brings back memories of our Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act), which prohibition was upheld by the Israeli Supreme Court and the continued theft of Palestinian land. It is estimated that Israel wants to annex over fifty percent of the remaining rump of Palestine. There are roads in the occupied territories, which are reserved for Israelis only. The Palestinians have different coloured number plates and their vehicles are not permitted to use these roads or enter Israeli occupied areas such as Jerusalem. Permits are required, and mostly denied, for travel between towns in the occupied territories. Bethlehem, the birthplace of Christ, is a fifteen-minute drive from Jerusalem. Yet there are residents of Bethlehem who have never been to Jerusalem because they have been denied permits. Bethlehem is completely hemmed in by the apartheid wall and Jewish settlements. The last remaining forest has been replaced by an Israeli settlement.
********
People who say that both sides are equally to blame are simply wrong. Unlike South Africa, where we demanded, fought for and eventually won a unitary state, under the rule of law with constitutionally entrenched human rights, the Palestinians are willing to settle for much less: The Oslo Accords which the Israelis have sabotaged, and the two principal political parties, Fatah and now Hamas (which has indicated a willingness) accept the creation of a Palestinian state in the remaining one third of historic Palestine which encompasses all the occupied territories along the 1967 border, a resolution of the issue of Palestinian refugees, preferably a right to return as is guaranteed by international humanitarian law and the sharing of Jerusalem. Distortions about offers made by Barak or that Palestinians willingly left their homes are neither borne out by facts nor do anything to take the process further.
The Palestinians have the right to basic human rights of statehood and sovereignty in a contiguous territory like any other peoples. Either Israel should allow the creation of the Palestinian state, or forego the two state approach for one democratic state of Palestine/Israel. It cannot have it both ways. Forget about the hypocrisy of the governments of the USA and the EU states. By virtue of our history, we have an obligation to support the just struggle of the Palestinian peoples right to self-determination.
******
Israel's unbroken pattern of crimes against humanity plainly uncovers the following reality: for nearly six decades Israel has been engaged in well- planned, systematic, and continuous campaign intended to destroy the Palestinian people, culture, civil society and the infrastructure of life itself. The call upon the international community to expose the myth that Israel has "disengaged" from Gaza despite Israel's continued control of Gaza's airspace, sea space, land borders, public services (including water, sewage, electricity, and telecommunication networks).
And from here:
Our first duty is to tell the truth to each other. We must combat among ourselves the bogus historical narratives which permit indifference to US policy in the Middle East in general, and support of Israeli apartheid in particular. The churchgoers among us urgently, publicly and repeatedly must confront and debunk the nonsense which holds that “wars and rumors of wars” are something predestined to happen in the biblical holy land for what they are – bad scripture and fake history. We need to interrupt, correct and school everyone who talks to us about a “cycle of violence” in the Holy Land, as though some raggedy fool with a suicide belt, or a few hundred fighters with small arms are or ever have been equivalent to the devastation wrought by the established gulags, checkpoints, airborne firepower, economic strangulation, house demolitions and nuclear armed might of the Israeli state. The two sides do not have access to anything like equal means of inflicting violence, and so cannot be equally culpable or equally responsible for stopping that violence.
(so sorry for the verrry long comment)
OTOH I think there is some evidence from Israeli sources that, from the beginning of its founding, Israel has never had as its goal an equitable and just resolution of the "Palestinian problem." Ben-Gurion himself said Israel should contain much of Lebanon. ="According to Lenin's Tomb:
ReplyDeleteCowboys and indians.
Sunny... shooter, go back and click on the link provided by tresy for a little real history of the conflict. You are relying much too much on msm narratives.
ReplyDeleteHe's not relying on them as much as he is parroting them. He is all in favor of "taking" from these "inferiors". Here in America, he call himself a "libertarian". We call him an "inferior" and a hypocrite.
The Hamas charter famously incorporates extermination,
ReplyDeleteWhich is why people in power, or near the seat of power in this country, have no busines talking of 'annihilation' and 'cleaning out'.
nobody, Do you have a cite for that bit about bunker busters? That's significant. I have speculated since the beginning of the invasion of Lebanon that Israel's true aim here is to neutralize Hezbollah's offensive capabilities in preparation for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities. Bunker busters would help do this.
ReplyDeleteSince at least January 2006, there's been talk of Israel "taking out Iran's nuke capabilities." One of the arguments put forth by critics of this position is the idea that if Israel did this, then Hezbollah would retaliate with its ketyusha rockets. I argued then that Israel would simply take these out before it attacks Iran.
I still think that the neocon arguments for spreading the Israeli invasion of Lebanon to Syria and Iran are just the advance guard on an eventual Israeli attack of Iran. The neocon method is to "float" radical ideas well before the event. By getting the idea in the air, it soon is mainstreamed and becomes a seemingly valid assumption.
Worst case scenario... Israel is Custer and the Seventh Cavalry. I have no idea how this will play out for the rest of the neocowboys.
ReplyDeleteThis entire comment, as misguided and inaccurate on every count as it is possible to be, should be reposted for all to see.
ReplyDeletePeople this ignorant should not be allowed on the internets. There should be an IQ test to turn the damn computer on.
It isn't much different than what Thomas Sowell is arguging. He's longing for the days when war meant that we "annihilate" our enemies and everyone knew it. David Horowitz on his blog has been kicking around when the nuclear weapon should drop, and Daniel Pipes certainly seems to want something approaching it.
Think about it - if Israel (or the U.S.) really leveled Syria, Iran and/or Lebanon tomorrow, if not with tactical nuclear weapons, how many of these neoconservatives do you think would object?
CL, A good place to start for all that kind of data is FAS.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp
Glenn replied to me:
ReplyDeleteAnd, by your rationale, shouldn't we also give precision-guided bombs to Hezbollah - and, for that matter, every other country - so that they don't have to indiscriminately lob their bombs anymore but can direct them more precisely?
The problem with this argument is that Hizbollah is an annihilationist movement that seeks the destruction of Israel. It does not practice "discriminate" warfare. So, for example, it would be unthinkable for Hizbollah to distribute leaflets warning Israeli civilians to evacuate strategic target areas, as the Israelis have been doing. For Hizbollah, the civilians are the target.
It follows that providing Hizbollah with more effective precision weapons would result in more, not fewer civilian casualties.
Glenn also wrote:
Israel may be justified in taking certain military action. That doesn't mean that the U.S. That's because they are two different countries.
It seems to me that this refusal to take sides is an evasion.
There is an insurgent movement (Hizbollah) that seeks the violent destruction of a member of the United Nations (Israel).
Does one have to be a neoconservative to believe that the United States has an interest in the outcome of this conflict? Does one have to be a neoconservative to identify with the liberal democracy (however defective it is in both respects) and to oppose the theocratic annihilationist movement?
I swear I am not a conservative of any kind, but I am baffled by the stance of impartiality.
Needless to say, I do not believe the violence is the solution to all problems. I would welcome diplomatic initiatives towards a constructive resolution of the conflict. And I favor efforts to confront the horrors and crimes of war on all sides. But I don't agree that all sides are "equal" or that the outcome is a matter of indifference.
There's a fact that I didn't see in Glenn's posting that affects my reaction to the piece. The New York Times reports "The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said."
ReplyDeleteMaybe we shouldn't have sold the munitions last year. However, how can we possibly withhold the arms now that they have already paid for, simply because we disagree with how they will be used?
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteApparently, it isn't enough that the U.S. has been defending without reservation the wisdom of the Israeli bombing campaign in Lebanon.
Why is that bad?
Nor is it enough that we have been unilaterally blocking a cease-fire and other diplomatic solutions.
Exactly how did we accomplish that? I did not know that either Hizbollah or Israel wanted a ceasefire.
In any case, Israel has gone the ceasefire route and the result was this latest attack. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon under the condition that Hizbollah be disarmed and disbanded. Instead, Hizbollah upgraded their arsenal and attacked again.
Why should Israel consider a ceasefire? Why should we force them to?
Now we are handing Israel the very bombs that they drop in order to flatten more and more of Lebanon, on a bomb-by-bomb basis:
The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
Given that these bombs reduce the incidence of civilian and Israeli casualties, why would anyone object to this?
That doesn't exactly seem like a sound strategy for diffusing Muslim animosity towards the U.S. -- which happens to be the Bush administration's stated goal.
Last time I checked, Iran, Syria and Hizbollah had either killed or supplied those who killed our troops.
Iran is being run by one of the terrorists who kidnapped our diplomats during the Carter Error.
They are enemies of the United States as well as Israel.
These common enemies started this war, not Israel, Indeed, Israel had just elected a government committed to withdrawal from the West Bank.
Why then should we give a fig about the opinion of our enemies?
The Arab countries outside of Syria are not at all happy about the Iranian persian projection of power into Lebanon. I was amazed when a Saudi imam issued a fatwa against Hizbollah.
They have an extraordinary goal that they intend to fulfill -- to somehow induce the U.S. to vastly expand its Middle East war to include yet more countries which have not attacked us...
The ring leaders Iran and Syria have been sheltering, training and supplying many of the terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq. al Qaeda in Iraq stages from Syria.
Time to wake up people. These Islamic fascists want to destroy Israel and have told you so. They are also at war with the United States and western civilization and have told you so. When will you take them at their word???
This is a fact of life, not a neoconservative fantasy.
The only question is what we do about it, or better yet what we allow Israel to do about it.
Allowing Israel to destroy Hizbollah and establish a DMZ in South Lebanon to hand off to Lebanon and say a NATO military force would destroy one of the worst terror groups in the region and be an enormous loss of face for its sponsors - Iran and Syria. Perhaps, Hamas would then see the writing on the wall and join the peace process rather than facing the same fate.
The alternative is to force a premature ceasefire and allow Iran to claim victory while rearming Hizbollah for the next round of attacks on Israel. Hamas would be emboldened and we would have yet another intafada in Palestine.
In his Townhall column yesterday, Thomas Sowell takes that a step further and, in the context of Israel's bombing of Lebanon, identifies the real problem as being that we don't "annihilate" our enemies -- using that word twice within two paragraphs:
"Was World War II ended by cease-fires or by annihilating much of Germany and Japan? Make no mistake about it, innocent civilians died in the process. . ."
"There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated. . . ."
One can find this sentiment everywhere among neoconservatives, who have now really released their war-loving id.
Glenn, this was the United States concensus foreign policy until Vietnam gelded the Democrat party and made them go isolationist.
The first principle of warfare is to ruthlessly kill the enemy and destroy his property until he surrenders. Ceasefires are only agreed to in order to give your troops a breather, not to give the enemy a reprieve to recover and kill more of your troops and citizens.
This is basic common sense.
Listen to Steele:
"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements -- that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war."
"An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions."
In the neoconservative mind, wars happen because we don't annihilate enough people, because we are insufficiently "ferocious," because we place limits on the "the full measure of our military power."
Steele is absolutely correct.
The WWI ceasefire led to WWII.
Munich led to open hostilities in WWII.
The western "peace movements" during the 60s encouraged the Soviet military expansion and further wars around the world in the 70s.
The cut and run from Somalia encouraged several al Qaeda attacks on the US ending in 9/11.
The Persian Gulf ceasefire led to the Iraq War.
If you do not finish off your enemy the first time, you will refight the war later.
Those who oppose such unrestrained destruction are, to use Bill Kristol's description from his new column yesterday, "weak horses" (quoting Osama bin Laden).
Read very carefully al Qaeda's 1996 declaration of war against the United States on this account:
Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".
We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in less than twenty four hours!
But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/
international/fatwa_1996.html
This is your enemy talking to you, not Bill Kristol. Are you listening?
To defeat the neocons you have to defeat their mouthpieces in the media -- Fox News of course, but also the low-rated apologists on CNN, MSNBC and all over talk radio.
ReplyDeleteThese media voices are on-air not because of ratings but because they push a storyline that ownership wants.
How do we fight back? The internet, Air America and by slowly forcing traditional media to cover the real stories and not the fake narratives.
In other words Glenn, this blog is the first response in our long slog back towards sanity.
We defeat them with the truth as pushed through media. When the light shines on their foulness, they will finally be exised.
-- WinSmith
It seems to me that this refusal to take sides is an evasion.
ReplyDeleteThere is an insurgent movement (Hizbollah) that seeks the violent destruction of a member of the United Nations (Israel).
I really don't know of anyone who hasn't "taken Israel's side" in the sense of condemning Hezbollah for the rockets and capture of the soldiers. I do. But that is far different from intervening on their behalf in this war.
There are conflicts and wars all over the world, constantly. Do you think the U.S. and every other country has the obligation to "take sides" and intervene in each of them? If not, what distinguishes this conflict?
And are you seriously contending that what Hezbollah was doing before this conflict began actually is a threat to Israel's existence?
The New York Times reports "The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said."
It also says that it is very unusual that the request was made on such an expedited basis and we agreed to do it so quickly. That almost never happens. We are clearly doing it to feed them the bombs that they intend to drop in this war, not merely fulfilling some preexisting contractual obligation.
Hey Bart:
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked, Iran, Syria and Hizbollah had either killed or supplied those who killed our troops.
Iran is being run by one of the terrorists who kidnapped our diplomats during the Carter Error.
Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia was the #1 funder of Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and extremist Islam worldwide.
The fact you and your propaganda apologists all over our media continue to ignore this obvious fact while pushing for war on the countries that don't fund the republican party, render any claims you have to moral certainty to be laughable.
When Bush gets the House of Saud to stop funding his entire network, then, and only maybe then, can you open your trap about our "enemies."
If there's any one country who poses a threat to us it's Saudi Arabia.
How interesting that you neocons never seem to notice that.
-- WinSmith
Glenn... It isn't much different than what Thomas Sowell is arguging. He's longing for the days when war meant that we "annihilate" our enemies and everyone knew it. David Horowitz on his blog has been kicking around when the nuclear weapon should drop, and Daniel Pipes certainly seems to want something approaching it.
ReplyDeleteThink about it - if Israel (or the U.S.) really leveled Syria, Iran and/or Lebanon tomorrow, if not with tactical nuclear weapons, how many of these neoconservatives do you think would object?
Sadly, this line of thinking is nothing new. It is common among the extremists in the warrior class, (by this I mean actual warriors, not the keyboard kommandos who are shouting it the loudest now). Curtis LeMay and Patton come to mind.
Wiki on LeMay: "There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders." The New York Times reported at the time, "Maj. Gen. Curtis E. LeMay, commander of the B-29's of the entire Marianas area, declared that if the war is shortened by a single day the attack will have served its purpose."
LeMay referred to his nighttime incendiary attacks as "fire jobs." The Japanese nicknamed him "brutal LeMay". LeMay was quite aware of both the brutality of his actions and the Japanese opinion of him - he once remarked that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes. However, he argued that it was his duty to carry out the attacks.
Fortunately this is still an extemist view, not all in our military espouse this line of thinking. Most just want to be allowed to do what they were trained for without political interference. That does not necessarily mean genocide, but it's not pretty either.
BTW, have you seen this? NASA quietly had its mission statement changed
shooter..Actually Israel has given back Gaza which has become a platform for renewed rocket attacks.
ReplyDeleteWhat part of this:
The call upon the international community to expose the myth that Israel has "disengaged" from Gaza despite Israel's continued control of Gaza's airspace, sea space, land borders, public services (including water, sewage, electricity, and telecommunication networks)
..do you not understand? Some "disengagement". They call it a "disengagement" when in fact it is nothing of the kind. What part of "propaganda" do you not understand?
I just find it odd that people who believe in "Armageddon" and the "End Times" don't think it will happen from climate change. Perhaps they do so why not just light a match and blow the whole thing up. Who's the suicide bomber?
ReplyDeleteAre Hezbollah (you know, the ones firing rockets into Isreal [not at military targets mind you but intentionally into civilian populations]) warmongers too?
ReplyDeleteIsreal, the only democracy in the mid-east is being attacked, and the U.S. shouldn't support it?
What's sad is the ignorant and simplistic notions that all the world's problems stem from "neo conservatives".
Hezbollah fires rockets from civilian locations. Hezbollah wears no uniforms (distingushing armies from civilians has been the purpose of military forces use of uniforms for a milenia). Hezbollah stores rockets in homes, schools etc.
The reality is that Isreal simply lets rockets rain down on its citizens or it responds.
The fact that the outrage isn't directed at the one's hiding amongst the civilians, using them as shields (both directly and indirectly) simply adds to the civilian suffering.
The moral equivalences and apologists for the terrorists, adds to civilian suffering.
That Hezbollah actually have indirect supporters here in the U.S. (by ignorant people who view this as a "neoconservative" issue thereby morally granting themselves license to excuse or explain away terrorist activity), adds to civilian suffering.
That Hezbollah knows it can count on such useful idiots in the U.S. adds to the civilian suffering.
Yes, by all means, let's talk about the human suffering. A good look in the mirror would be a helpful start.
Are Hezbollah (you know, the ones firing rockets into Isreal [not at military targets mind you but intentionally into civilian populations]) warmongers too?
ReplyDeleteOf course they are. I have nothing good to say about Hezbollah. They ought to be disbanded and Israel has every right to defend itself against them. Firing rockets into Israel and abducting its soldiers on Israeli soil are provocative acts of war. Who disputes that? I don't.
This post is not about Israel's response but about the AMERICAN response. It is truly amazing how those two things have come to be completely conflated in so many eyes. If you write a post opposing American involvement in this war, many people will come and tell you that Israel has a right to attack Hezbollah, as though that is some kind of response to what you've said.
It is possible that (a) Israel should attack Hezbollah but (b) the U.S. should stay out of the war. To affirm statement (b) is not to deny statement (a). But it is telling how many people don't recognize any such distinction.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked, Saudi Arabia was the #1 funder of Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and extremist Islam worldwide.
The fact you and your propaganda apologists all over our media continue to ignore this obvious fact while pushing for war on the countries that don't fund the republican party, render any claims you have to moral certainty to be laughable.
When Bush gets the House of Saud to stop funding his entire network, then, and only maybe then, can you open your trap about our "enemies."
Huh?
In case you missed it, bin Laden has been at war with the House of Saud for a decade and the Saudis have killed or captured several hundred al Qaeda in SA. They have also been instrumental in cutting off most of al Qaeda's funding.
Where the Saudis need to crack down is on the Wahabbis who preach the Islamic fascist propaganda.
When you understand that is what he is about, you know he understands propaganda quite well
ReplyDeleteanon @1:13 PM
Yes, I am beginning to see that the poor duped minions of the neocons believe they too can "create their own reality" regardless of "facts and empirical evidence."
bif..Hezbollah stores rockets in homes, schools etc.
What proof do you have for that assertion?
The reality is that Isreal simply lets rockets rain down on its citizens or it responds
Israel has that right, but Lebanon does not? Once again, The two sides do not have access to anything like equal means of inflicting violence, and so cannot be equally culpable or equally responsible for stopping that violence.
Reading Bart's pedantic screed above, I love it when the wingnuts argue we must always do the opposite of whatever al-Queda says, so that if they taunt us for retreating from an ill-advised deployment in Somalia, for example, we must not retreat from an even more ill-advised deployment in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think it might occur to the wingnuts that AQ has figured out how easily this moronic strategy plays into their hands, especially after Ron Suskind spelled it out for them in the One Percent Doctrine, where the CIA immediately recognized OBL's October 2004 video tape as a conscious pro-Bush campaign commercial. (That's also why I believe that Hezbollah kidnapped those two soldiers, too--to sucker Brer Rabbit once again into hitting the tar baby.)
For a bunch of stupid ragheads (standard wingnut view), they seem to be pretty good at playing us for chumps. Wonder what that makes us?
A.L. has an intriguing post this morning. After reading both his and this one, as well as John Dean's excellent new book (I'm curious to see your take on it in a future post) and most of the comments here, I'm struck by how we say that Bush/Cheney are playing to their base which I deem to understand are a mixture of NeoCons and Evengelicals. The NeoCons are in a blood lust pack mentality cheering Bush's supplying of jet fuel ($212 million and counting) and weaponry, vicariously enjoying the ME superpower surgically (oh please) strike Lebanon and are tantalized with the carrot that this could spread further; while the Evengelicals seem to be viewing this as Clash of Civilizations/Regligions where their guys has the best ammo...and whilst they have the mic, the true base (my God willing) the centrists of the Republican party are cowed even more than the Dem party of opposition. Up until George Will's piece this week there's been narry a peep from what I always assumed was the Rep base and that's the center. Are they even more afraid of the Ann Coulters, Michelle Malkins than the media is?
ReplyDeleteThe enemy of my enemy is my friend.
ReplyDeleteI hate "neocons".
I percieve the war against terrorists as one between "neocons" and the terrorists (lets forget about the Bali bombings, the beheadings of Christian school girls in Indonesia, the planned attacks in Europe and Canada which had liberal (anti-Iraq/US policy) governments in place)
I therefore qualify every statement about the terrorists (if I even believe that terrorists exist and are a bad thing): "oh yes those beheadings were awful BUT" (INSERT QUALIFYING STATEMENT ABOUT HOW ITS THE "NEOCONS FAULT HERE)".
As you can see, I am so blinded by politically driven hate of the Neocons that I can actually excuse behaviour that would otherwise be inexcusable.
Sound about right.
Sunny,
ReplyDeletethe fact that you actually disbelieve the notion of Hezbollah hiding weapons in civilian infrastructure pretty much says it all.
Sunny, have you heard of the term ideologically blind?
Glenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteIt is possible that (a) Israel should attack Hezbollah but (b) the U.S. should stay out of the war. To affirm statement (b) is not to deny statement (a). But it is telling how many people don't recognize any such distinction.
Since no one has suggested that the U.S. should actually intervene militarily in the war between Israel and Hizbollah, your point in (b) seems to be that the U.S. should withhold armaments from the Israeli military.
Is that what you are saying?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteSo, the only democracy in the mid-east, and only true American ally in the region, is fighting for its life, and the U.S. shouldn't resupply them?
It's sad and funny how the Israel argument takes over all others. Glenn's article is on neocons, not Israel/Lebanon. His passing remarks on that subject seem pretty balanced to me. (my viewpoint on that is that Israel is reaping what it has sowed for 55 years. The first terrorists in the area were the Irgun.)
ReplyDeleteGlenn's point that really needs to be discussed is whether or not the neocon mindset still controls the White House or some sort of realism has crept in as the result of our failures in Iraq.
I think I was fooled by Bush's out of it demeanor in the last few weeks into thinking he really doesnt know what's going on or what to do. On second thought, that out of it demeanor could just as easily mean he knows exactly what he's doing, and just looks dumb while waiting for it to happen. As in the Pet Goat interlude.
Then I recall Seymour Hersh's recent article in the New Yorker, which convinces me that the military has strongly resisted any action in Iran, and I have always believed the Bush Sr and the Carlysle group would not want to see the world economy plunged into depression by Iran's sabotaging the straights of Hormuz.
On the other hand, as Scott Ritter says, the neocons really dont care about consequences or other points of view. They are true believers, like the general Sterling Hayden plays in Dr. Strangelove. In fact, they're like Dr. Strangelove!
but Glenn says it best --"bloodthirsty"!
This post is not about Israel's response but about the AMERICAN response. It is truly amazing how those two things have come to be completely conflated in so many eyes.
ReplyDeleteYes, Glenn. Yours in particular.
Do you intend to correct your incorrect assertion that the US has unilaterally blocked a cease fire?
Further to my to first posts above,
ReplyDeleteplease see bobw's comment above.
It's all about the "neocons".
You are wrong to paint the right as bloodthirsty on this issue. Wrong enough that it will cost votes if those seeking election attempt to use it.
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis are left with the choice of a long slow bleed under what was up until recently the status quo, or an all out war to attempt to end the hostilities once and for all. Hezbullah must be destroyed.
Do remember that the Israelis give warning to the inahbitants before the bombing starts, and that Hezbullah not only does not, it hides behind the civilians, it hopes for thier deaths so that it can use the Western media, and folks like you to paint Israel as the monster. Don't let them use you like they are.
Middle East policy in a nutshell: If force isn't working, you're not using enough.
ReplyDeletethe fact that you actually disbelieve the notion of Hezbollah hiding weapons in civilian infrastructure pretty much says it all.
ReplyDeleteSunny, have you heard of the term ideologically blind?
You still offer no proof, and demand we believe it because..what, Bill Kristol said so? which puts you in the category of the ideologically blind.
I wonder where you think I am on the ideological scale? I despise the cowardice of Democrats as much as I do the criminality of Bush. I am against abortion, and I don't mean the Hillary Clinton version of making them "legal, safe, and rare". I mean I think abortions are wrong and a sin and a crime against humanity,tho I'm not willing, as some of your ideological brethren are, to bomb and kill people over them. I am also not willing to try and force people to my point of view. And yes, I'm against the death penalty. I believe in Gay rights, but I also believe in traditional family values, as my successful 25 year (only) marriage is testimony. I believe people should be left alone to practice whatever religion they like, or no religion at all.
As per your comment, you made assertions about me without having all the facts.
Since no one has suggested that the U.S. should actually intervene militarily in the war between Israel and Hizbollah,
ReplyDeleteSorry, but that's just not true. Bill Kristol, Andy McCarthy and many others have suggested exactly that, albeit by attacking Syria and/or Iran on the ground that they are the enablers of Hezbollah.
your point in (b) seems to be that the U.S. should withhold armaments from the Israeli military. Is that what you are saying?
I don't think the U.S. should cancel prior commitments or refrain from interacting with Israel in its normal course because of the war, nor do I think the U.S. should go to unusual, even extraoardinary, lengths to arm Israel specifically for this war, as they are now doing.
Do you think the U.S. ought to fight in any war in which Israel is fighting?
There is palpable and quite unseemly excitement gripping neoconservatives over what the world sees as a horrible and tragic war, but which they glowingly call a "great opportunity."
ReplyDeleteI cover this "great opportunity" stuff here.
Cheers,
Do remember that the Israelis give warning to the inahbitants before the bombing starts, and that Hezbullah not only does not, it hides behind the civilians, it hopes for thier deaths so that it can use the Western media, and folks like you to paint Israel as the monster. Don't let them use you like they are.
ReplyDeleteWhat does any of this have to do with the U.S. bombing Syria and/or Iran?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"Biff" (geez, what a wissy sig...) thinks that Lebanon is invading Israel:
ReplyDeleteSo, the only democracy in the mid-east, and only true American ally in the region, is fighting for its life, and the U.S. shouldn't resupply them?
So Lebanon's coming over the border with tanks, Cobra gunships, and BFVs?
Cheers,
Sunny,
ReplyDeletehold on there partner. You've waaaaaay overstated your case. I judged you on the fact that you need "proof" of Hezbollah using civilian infrastructure, and I believe it is you who are being presumptuous assuming that my views are based on select readership.
Hezbollah, has no "army" no "uniforms" no formal bases or "barracks". They sleep, plan, operate out of apartments and houses. They store their weapons in such places as well.
As for "proof", that's kinda like asking for "proof" that the world is round.
I just finished reading your book, really good, but I do have a question. While it is true that GWB has not only broken the law but has also gone against the constitution, should he be impeached? The reason I ask is that I think(and maybe I am alone in this) that the Clinton impeachment was in revenge for the Nixon(almost impeachment) Would the impeachment and conviction of GWB be bad for the country? Lets say that the dems take over both houses of congress big time in 06- should they impeach GWB? He deserves it, but what would it do to the country. I remember that Nixon refused to challenge the 60 election, even though he could have proved fraud in Chicago and could have won. He did (at least that time) put the country over himself. Should Gore have done what he did? Yes GWB stole the election in FL. That has happened before and will likely happen again. Would GWB the reps and the dems been able to work together? or would the far right have done the same? We will never know, but the question remains, would convicting GWB be good for the whole country? Was what Ford did-pardoning Nixon-the right thing to do? I think it was, but in a way it let the right continue to believe that Nixon was railroaded. Turn it around, would the current congress, under any circumstance, impeach GWB? They have not done their job in the last 4 years, will they do it now? Would it be an effective campaign tool for the reps to say that if the dems get the majority, they would impeach GWB?
ReplyDeletearne,
ReplyDeleteHezbollah operates out of Lebanon with the tacit or even explicit (perhaps coerced but that's Lebanon's problem not Isreal's) endorsement of the Lebanese government. Most agree that Hezbollah is in de facto control of that country, and certainly in control of the Southern portion.
But even if you don't believe that, where do you think the rockets were:
fired from, or
stored, or
who's roads and airposts they were brought via?
Tell me how you would propose Isreal defending herself against Hezbollah while respecting the territorial integrity of Lebanon?
To those who say that this post from Glenn is about neocons and their dangerous influence over U.S. policy, and not Israel, I say this:
ReplyDeleteYou are right. I apologize for my part in hijacking not only this thread, but the previous one as well. The only defense I can offer is that Israel is sort of the pea under the mattress here. Shouldn't be, maybe, but it is. I suppose the pernicious influence of the neocons over U.S. policy toward the U.N., or North Korea, or the Bolivarist populists in South America, or toward Cuba, could just as easily be discussed, but of course the clear and present danger at the moment is in the Middle East, and the talk tends to drift.
Again, I apologize, and I'll try to stay closer to the topics Glenn has chosen in the future.
Glenn, your first link does not say what you infer it says with the term "unilaterally blocking". The US has not unilaterally blocked anything, as I noted upthread.
ReplyDeleteAre you going to correct the falsity in the first line of this post? Or are you content to take bullshit potshots at the USA from your perch in Brazil?
What I find missing in all this is some acknowledgement that guys like Kristol and Horowitz are right. The truth is, history gives us plenty of examples in which unrestrained ruthlessness succeeded in pacifying large areas, including the Middle East.
ReplyDeleteBut then Kristol et al. lack the guts to mention the people who did that: Stalin, for example, or Tamerlane. Sure, we could exterminate the Kulaks. We could raze Baghdad to the ground, kill all the men, rape all the women, sell the children into slavery, and stack 100,000 skulls in a pyramid outside the city.
Until I see the neocons actually acknowledging where their policies lead, I'll continue to treat them as the rank, arrogant amateurs they really are.
Israel has struck targets including Hezbollah offices, weapons-storage facilities, airports, bridges and roads, including the main highway between Beirut and the Syrian capital of Damascus.
ReplyDeleteFrom here
Attacks were conducted on the ports, as well as coastal radar stations. As part of the isolation of the theater of operation, Israeli F-16Ds from 109th and 101st squadrons performed interdiction missions, targeting with smart weapons critical passes and vehicles moving along the Beirut - Damascus highway and Daher-al-Baidar passage, the routes linking Lebanon to the east. F-16s C/D from 105th (Scorpions) squadron conducted strikes against weapons storage facilities at Baal-Beck..
From here.
Other targets included Hezbollah's headquarters, a warehouse used to store weapons, as well as roads and bridges in southern Lebanon.
From here.
So there are actual facilities used to store weapons. But of course they have so many weapons they have to also store them in the very schools they themselves funded and built.
PABLO said:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, your first link does not say what you infer it says with the term "unilaterally blocking". The US has not unilaterally blocked anything, as I noted upthread.
Are you going to correct the falsity in the first line of this post? Or are you content to take bullshit potshots at the USA from your perch in Brazil?
The REALITY, from AP -
_________
"The United States blocked an Arab-backed resolution Thursday that would have demanded Israel halt its military offensive in the Gaza Strip, the first U.N. Security Council veto in nearly two years.
The draft, sponsored by Qatar on behalf of other Arab nations, accused Israel of a "disproportionate use of force" that endangered Palestinian civilians, and demanded Israel withdraw its troops from Gaza.
The United States was alone in voting against the resolution. Ten of the 15 Security Council nations voted in favor, while Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained."
______
Just as the post to which I linked in the first sentence made clear.
biff said...
ReplyDeleteWhat's sad is the ignorant and simplistic notions that all the world's problems stem from "neo conservatives".
What's sad is the blind self-involved stupidity of one extremist (like you) suggesting that wiping out the extremists on one side will solve the problem for all sides. We'd have to eliminate you as well. And the last time I checked, Israel wasn't the only democracy in that part of the world. There is Turkey, part of NATO even, Iraq, of course, right Biff? And the flrdgling democracy that was once Lebanon. With a name like "Biff" and a brain to match, this entire thread is bound degenerate into campy satire and cartoonish parody.
ReplyDeleteAre you going to correct the falsity in the first line of this post? Or are you content to take bullshit potshots at the USA from your perch in Brazil?
This must be a rhetorical question. His entire post and his followup commentary reeks of intellectual dishonesty. He has the bald-faced gall to deny that his anti-semitic diatribe is not what it plainly is. He has a history of these types of antics. See for example
Glenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteI don't think the U.S. should cancel prior commitments or refrain from interacting with Israel in its normal course because of the war, nor do I think the U.S. should go to unusual, even extraoardinary, lengths to arm Israel specifically for this war, as they are now doing.
Okay, your position is clear, but I think you are slicing the salami mighty thin.
I would have thought that if Israel's actions are way out of line then we should exercise leverage to rein them in, and if Israel is engaged in legitimate self-defense against an illegitimate attack then we should support them in some fashion.
Do you think the U.S. ought to fight in any war in which Israel is fighting?
That would be claiming too much. I think the Eisenhower Administration was correct, for example, to oppose Israel's involvement in the 1956 war.
This is probably my last comment for the day. Thanks for conducting a stimulating and civilized discussion.
Pablo is famous throughout the internets. He's a Little Green Foozball. A minion, or mignon, and not very bright.
ReplyDeleteActually both Matthews and Buttman were against the war from the first.
ReplyDeleteIf there's any question about the influence that conservatives wield in Washington, consider the fact that Micahel "creative destruction" Ledeen appeared before the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs yesterday (via War & Piece), providing advice on "on Iran's nuclear impasse."
ReplyDeleteUntil I see the neocons actually acknowledging where their policies lead, I'll continue to treat them as the rank, arrogant amateurs they really are.
ReplyDeleteThey love to quote the Greek and Roman historians and yet they would conquer and rule an empire using the methods of Attila and the Huns. They learn nothing from history. Empires left to their own devices always collapse under their own weight.
I would have thought that if Israel's actions are way out of line then we should exercise leverage to rein them in
ReplyDeleteWe can't.
Sunny,
ReplyDeleteso when Isreal targets an apartment, house or other "weapons facility" it must simply be doing so, not because it has intelligence that weapons are stored there (as is common from Hezbollah, remember they don't have bases or even uniforms (you know those things that armies for a milennia have used for the basic fact that it distinguishes them from civilians), I guess they're just "terrorists" themselves, targeting civilians.
Pointless.
biff said...
ReplyDeletePointless.
You are right. It is pointless. I forgot to mention the democracy that is Palestine. It's "pointless" because your definition of democracy is obvioulsy than the dictionary definition. Please tell us your definition of democracy. We all know what it is, but let's hear it anyway, for a laugh.
The United States was alone in voting against the resolution. Ten of the 15 Security Council nations voted in favor, while Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained."
ReplyDeleteAnd ten plus four is what, Glenn?
Hint: not 15.
You said the US unilaterally blocekd the resoultion. If you know what the word unilaterally means, you know that it doesn't apply here.
Are you going to correct the falsehood?
Lets add some balance:
ReplyDeleteHezbollah's Favorite Newspaper
Well, so nice to spend time with those who defend terrorists.
ReplyDeleteI have to go take a shower and scrub myself down now.
Unfortunately, I think it'll be awhile before I get the stench out.
Cheers.
anon responding to another commenter:
ReplyDeleteprevious comment: I would have thought that if Israel's actions are way out of line then we should exercise leverage to rein them in
amon: We can't.
We could if there was a will. GW, for example, could threaten to cut off all funding headed to Israel (as his father did during one crisis), cut off diplomatic relations, support UN resolutions that recommend punishing Israel, etc etc.
There are plenty of actions the US could do to rein in Israel. It's obvious that there's no will on this admin's part to do so. This is because, I believe (along with Glenn), that neocon ideologists run the Bush admin. The neocons have shown themselves to be apologists for and promoters of Israeli interests within the US govt.
I would expect better from Sowell. He went off the deep end some time ago. Military history is not his area of expertise. He was the very embodiment of a cow towing "Uncle Tom". Now he is a raging mau-mauing neocon. He needs help. The Wehrmacht did try to assassinate Hitler and sue for peace. Unfortunately the numerous plots and assassination attempts failed.
ReplyDeleteCL...We could if there was a will. GW, for example, could threaten to cut off all funding headed to Israel (as his father did during one crisis), cut off diplomatic relations, support UN resolutions that recommend punishing Israel, etc etc.
ReplyDeleteWe won't. I'm not sure if it's not partly do to the fact that we can't, and to try and fail would make Bush and the US look as weak as we really are. I fully expect the Israelis would tell us to fuck off. We've come a long way from the days when they restrained themselves for us during GWI. Those were Scuds. Katyushas are "spit balls" by comparison.
CL, about the funding... another commenter said it was tied to a previous deal and cannot easily be cut back. It is less now, 1.2 as opposed to the 2 billion they wanted. We could stop sending them munitions. I think we are in violation of some UN accord, not that we or the Israelis care.
ReplyDeletePablo said...
ReplyDeleteThe United States was alone in voting against the resolution. Ten of the 15 Security Council nations voted in favor, while Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained."
And ten plus four is what, Glenn?
Hint: not 15.
You said the US unilaterally blocekd the resoultion. If you know what the word unilaterally means, you know that it doesn't apply here.
Are you going to correct the falsehood?
From Wikipedia:
Decisions in the 15-member Security Council on all substantive matters—for example, a decision calling for direct measures related to the settlement of a dispute—require the affirmative votes of nine members. A negative vote—a veto—by a permanent member prevents adoption of a proposal, even if it has received the required number of affirmative votes. Abstention is not regarded as a veto.
Tony Judt, has an interesting articleThe Country that wouldn’t grow up in Haaretz that has observations about the State of Israel that also apply to the neo-conservatives:
ReplyDeleteLike many adolescents Israel is convinced - and makes a point of aggressively and repeatedly asserting - that it can do as it wishes, that its actions carry no consequences and that it is immortal.
And so, shorn of all other justifications for its behavior, Israel and its supporters today fall back with increasing shrillness upon the oldest claim of all: Israel is a Jewish state and that is why people criticize it. This - the charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic - is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card. If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left.
I’m afraid that this “trump card” is what the neo-cons will use to drag the U.S. into a regional war. Israel will escalate to the point where it will, in the name of “self-defense” end up bombing strategic targets in Syria and Iran, which will lead them to respond to these actions.
Citing “Israel’s defense” the U.S. will then be forced to take actions against Syria and Iran and anyone who objects will be considered an “anti-Semite.”
This is the last card the neo-cons have, but in U.S. politics it’s always worked, and the neo-cons will frame the upcoming wars against Syria and Iran as “defending Israel” and accuse those who question this war of being ant-Semites.
How can you be against defending Israel? What’s wrong with you? And that is how we end up in a regional war that will only make everything in the region worse.
Israel has done everything asked for and more, to try and achieve peace.
ReplyDeleteThis is untrue. You might think that Israel has done enough, and that they are in the right, but it is categorically untrue that they have done everything asked by the international community.
Glen and others: you seem to have forgotten the avowed hope and ecstatic dream of many on the Righteous Right--to induce the Rapture which is immediately preceded by the Final War for the holy city of Jerusalem. There is a significant segment of the fundamentalist crowd that believes that war and destruction in the Middle East is a GOOD thing, since it may signal the beginning of the end, at which time the righteous will be raised up to heaven and the rest of humanity will get their just reward of eternal hellfire and damnation. According to this common wisdom of the RR, we should be supplying the Israelis with MORE arms and encouraging them use the nuclear weapons they already have.
ReplyDeleteThe following link to Gilbert Achabar's article provides needed background on the Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah conflict.
ReplyDeleteAchabar starts his article out:
WHATEVER ONE thinks about Hezbollah or the operation mounted by Hezbollah–and I do have my own reservations about its appropriateness with regard to its foreseeable consequences–this cannot by any logic justify what Israel is doing.
The killing of the seven Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of two soldiers was an act of war, and Lebanon and Israel are two countries that are still at war.
Israel regularly encroaches on Lebanon’s sovereignty: it has aggressed the country innumerable times, especially after 1967 (the first Israeli devastating attack on Beirut’s airport took place in 1968); it invaded a small piece of Lebanese territory in 1967 (the Shebaa farms), a big chunk of southern Lebanon in 1978, half of Lebanon in 1982; it then occupied a big part of the country until 1985, its southern part until 2000, and it still holds the stretch of Lebanese territory that it seized in 1967.
Since 2000, there has been an ongoing low-intensity war between Hezbollah and Israel: cross-border skirmishes, covert Israeli action in Lebanon, including assassination of Hezbollah leaders, etc.
But what Israel is carrying out now in Lebanon is massive retaliation against a whole population. It is holding a whole population and country hostage and trying to impose its conditions.
There are always two sides to a sotry. Why is it we in the US always only hear the Israeli side? I know that sounds like a rhetorical question. But its answer involves understanding the full extent of the neocon propaganda strategy and its relationship to the Israel lobby.
shooter: So let me pose a hypothetical. If Muslims everywhere declared a cease fire, would you expect Israel and the US to use it as an opportunity to kill more people?
ReplyDeleteNo.
But the converse would absolutely be true, and therein lies the difference between them and us.
I think neocons would say the cease fire was a ploy and would attack anyway.
Just like when inspections produced no serious WMD program, the neocons lied and invaded anyway.
So, yes, I do believe that neocons would come up with another bullshit justification and do whatever they wanted.
And since neocons have killed more civilians than bin Laden ever did, yes, they are a bigger threat to peace than he is/was.
Remember, those 9-11 hijackers thought that they were doing the right thing, too. They were wrong, and so are neocons.
Feeling righteous about dropping bombs on civilians is a sure sign you are lying to yourself.
How can you be against defending Israel? What’s wrong with you? And that is how we end up in a regional war that will only make everything in the region worse.
ReplyDeleteI can be against it and I'm not anti-semitic. Glenn is Jewish. They can accuse him of anti-semitism all they want. Eventually the power of that fetish begins to wane.
itsy: you seem to have forgotten the avowed hope and ecstatic dream of many on the Righteous Right--to induce the Rapture which is immediately preceded by the Final War for the holy city of Jerusalem.
ReplyDeleteWhat is astounding about this belief is that it's actually being taken seriously by the media. CNN has been running the story for some time. In fact, I think the network is scheduled to do an hour-long segment on it tonight.
Strangely enough--or is it?--the RR push of this idea is being exploited by Newt Gingrich and John McCain and theories that the US is engaged in WWIII.
For background on this idea, see the followng American Propsect article:
In the June issue of the Prospect, I wrote about Texas televangelist John Hagee, an Armageddon prophesier who insists that military confrontation with Iran is foretold in the Bible as a necessary precondition for the Second Coming.
Using his best-selling book, Jerusalem Countdown, his internationally broadcast television program, and the viral marketing offered by a network of mega churches whose pastors have signed on to his new lobbying effort, Christians United for Israel (CUFI), Hagee has spent the past six months mobilizing popular support for a war with Iran. Based on his end-times prophecy, a supposed love of the Jewish people and the state of Israel, and false claims that Iran is just months away from a viable nuclear weapon, Hagee maintains that confrontation with Iran is necessary to fulfill God’s plan for the future of the world.
While it hardly seems like a sound basis for foreign policy, as the violence between Israel and Hezbollah escalates at the Israel-Lebanon border and beyond, Hagee’s view of Iran’s central role in a world-altering showdown seems to be catching on. And not just on the wingnut airwaves or among war-mongering chattering heads. It’s gaining momentum among certain Republican presidential aspirants, who, like all Republican presidential aspirants, count beans and feel compelled to bow to the will of American religious extremists to win.
I think at least part of the cliched anti-Semitism charge is projection of the strong anti-Arab streak in neocon circles.
ReplyDeleteI can't help but feel that racism has played a big role in pushing neocon agendas forward; if people would bother to distinguish between different Arabs, there's no way anyone would have swallowed the Hussein-bin Laden connection line.
On the other hand, people swallowed the NYT Travel Section-bin Laden line, so who can say what they wouldn't buy.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI think it is time to acknowledge, to yourself and to those who read your blog, that the reason Messrs Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld think Iraq is a "success" is because it has served the very purpose that the PNAC wished it to serve, namely...
* to create a "modern Pearl Harbor scenario" related to the Middle East (reference - http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf)
* to use that "modern Pearl Harbor scenario" as justification to expand not only defense spending and military mobilization, but the ancillary contracting with entities like Halliburton/Kellogg Brown & Root
* to achieve its agenda of staunch militaristic support for Israel and against other nonIsrael nations in the region (shadow Zionist Hawk agenda)
* to distract the American public with fear of "terrorists" so that domestic monarchic empowerment of the POTUS (see EFF vs AT&T, for example) so that none of the PNAC agenda issues may be legitimately questioned
It is high time to stop believing any of the sales pitches related to "bringing democracy to Iraq." Such never was an intention of the Bush/Cheney Admin, at least not to the extent "democracy" resembles actual autocratic authority of the Iraqi peoples, rather than puppet plutocracy installed by the PNAC.
The zombielike somnambulism that has struck the nation is not lifting. Fractious arguing among the conservatives is not tantamount to a wake-up call. It is more public theatre, of the sort that Patrick Fitzgerald has been conducting in his "investigation" of the Plame/Wilson/treason affair. It is not what is, but rather, what those who support the Bush/Cheney Admin agenda would like the American People to believe.
The idea of "democracy in Iraq" is no more legitimate than Mr Bush's phony Christian pose. It is a ruse of the highest order.
It looks like the fuse is laid and the match has been struck. If this is true, a large scale, long term incursion into Lebanon is in the works.
ReplyDeleteIsrael building prison for Lebanese captives, attests to Israeli plans for large-scale ground incursion
GAMLA: News and Views from Israel / YNET
IDF has started building detention compound to be used for holding Hizbullah members that will be captured during fighting in north. Officials: Project attests to government's plans for large-scale ground incursion in Lebanon Sharon Roffe-Ofir
Preparing for an extended ground operation: The IDF has started constructing a temporary detention center designed to hold the Lebanese prisoners that will be captured during army operations in Southern Lebanon, Ynet has learned recently.
A truck convoy carrying barbed-wire fences, containers, and mobile showers and toilets started unloading equipment at the Filon military base near Rosh Pina Friday, and construction works at the place are already underway. According to plans, the structure should be able to hold up to hundreds of Hizbullah prisoners at any given time.
The fact that the army was granted special permission from the Chief Military Rabbinate to continue with construction works throughout Saturday attests to the urgency attributed to the project.
Army sources told Ynet that the decision to build the detention center followed an earlier decision taken this week to call up reserve brigades and launch preparations for a ground offensive deep inside Lebanese territory in the near future.
'Decision to build prison attests to Israel's plans'
According to the officials, the initial plan was to erect the compound near the Koach Junction using an old structure which dates back to the days of the British Mandate and which is currently in use by the Border Guard police. However, as the place is limited in size, the army later decided to locate the new prison at the larger Filon base.
The detention center will be based on the model of previous prisons built in Israel such as Ktziot in the south and the Ofer base in Jerusalem.
During the Lebanon War, thousands of Lebanese detainees were incarcerated at the al-Hiyam prison located in Lebanese territory. Defense officials explained to Ynet that setting up a detention center on such a scale is proof of the Israeli government's plans for an extensive operation that may last for months.
prunes said...
ReplyDelete"I think at least part of the cliched anti-Semitism charge is projection of the strong anti-Arab streak in neocon circles."
Actually, such psychoanalysis is unnecessary. Professors Walt and Mearsheimer did an excellent job of analysing the reasons why the charge of anti-Semitism has become reflexively used on a broad scale. It is to completely destroy objective discussion of the legitimacy of two things: (1) the USA's support of Israeli militaristic acts of murder against innocents, and (2) the tactics used by Israel against those people and nations that it fears with a frightening paranoia that borders on psychopathy.
prunes: cliched anti-Semitism charge is projection of the strong anti-Arab streak in neocon circles.
ReplyDeleteAnti-Arab? You want to see the racist statements made by Jewish commentators on a semi-neocon forum take a look at the topics and comments at the Spengler Forum.
I think it is time to acknowledge, to yourself and to those who read your blog, that the reason Messrs Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld think Iraq is a "success" is because it has served the very purpose that the PNAC wished it to serve, namely...
ReplyDeleteI've read most if not all of the documents at some point on the New American Century site and I don't recall seeing any that would support the characterizations you've made, at least not the way you've made them. And the link you provided doesn't go anywhere (it's a bad page), so could you provide the accurate link and, if you're feeling particulary ambitious, quote the parts of the document which you think justify those claims you just made about what their "real plans" were.
For an excellent discussion of diverse arguments pro et con on anti-semitism, see the current online issue of Engage.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, sorry the link got cut short by the margins your format sets by default. Here is the link, you should go to page 51 for the "Pearl Harbor" reference.
ReplyDeletehttp://newamericancentury.org/
(wrap the link through)
RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
As to the remaining points, I think it rather obvious from a retro-analysis of events and the secret no-bid K awards to H-KB&R that Mr Cheney sought to enrich both his own private portfolio, and that of his fellow Halliburton shareholders. Your law school education and time spent practicing should inform you well on this point. No-bid contract awards are done for one reason only -- sweetheart deals based on favoritism. The extent to which Halliburton has reaped grand profits of an annuity-analogue nature (open-ended Ks awarded in almost every instance) makes it rather clear that the point was to benefit Halliburton, and not any other.
I think we're all pretty much on the same page (shooter, Bart, and a couple others) that neo-conservative pundits and their supporters are pushing an especially dangerous rhetorical course of policy, one that appreciates neither the delicacy of the region nor the ultimate consequences such a course would likely lead to.
ReplyDeleteMy question to the thread is this: does anyone see any ideological or policy counter-weight presently available in play to halt the present march into the sea?
I mean, is there anything beyond simple inertia to stop the Bush Administration from taking this mess to its bloodiest possible conclusion?
as to support of Israel's new Zionist Hawks (the more aggressive wing currently authorizing disproportionate violent force against Lebanon under the guise of attacking Hezbollah), one only needs to see who is currently arguing that the USA's interests lie with helping Israel eliminate her enemies -- Richard Perle and Bill Kristol, who are PNAC teammates of Messrs Cheney and Rumsfeld, and strategic and fiscal (Carlyle Group) brethren of POTUS Bush's father, Herbie Walker 41.
ReplyDeleteIt's really not that hard to connect these dots, in my view. Why would Mr Wolfowitz have ventured to the World Bank from his post under Bush 43's first term Admin? What role does the World Bank serve in connection with "rebuilding the Middle East" or other places where American Imperialism has a vested interest? Mr Wolfowitz is a founder of the PNAC. What interests might the PNAC and the World Bank have in common?
Glenn, et al:
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the support here for more war in the ME comes from a kind of social frustration, a deep discomfort in the presence of the lack of resolution to problems. A lot of people can't tolerate high levels of ambiguity or irony; a lot of people can't "sit through" long discussions or negotiations. A lot of people crave the ecstacy of "cutting through" perceived deadlocks. And nothing cuts through the deadlock at hand like violence.
You can see the itch in the President himself. Look at his curt impatience and clowning at the G8 conference. A lot of people in this country identify with that impatience. They feel it in their own lives every day and they feel it when they watch the news.
The violence we consume in our chosen entertainments (tv, movies, games) help feed the notion that the quick, violent solution, the solution that cuts through the gray areas, is the best solution.
War in the ME is, for Americans, only on tv anyway. War in the ME is just another for of reality tv. We pick our side, our team, and cheer it on.
Whoa, whoa ... let's talk about the real issue here - the blabbermouths at the NYTs blabbering to Hezbollah that Israel is going to bomb them with weapons from the United States.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, the New York Times has thrown someone under the bus to grab headlines by completely dismantling Israel's war efforts by letting Hezbollah know that Isreal is going to (continue) bombing them, and all you can talk about is whether or not the United States should involve itself or how it should involve itself in what purports to be a messy entangled conflict with significant implications for regional stability and world security.
A lot of people can't tolerate high levels of ambiguity or irony; a lot of people can't "sit through" long discussions or negotiations. A lot of people crave the ecstacy of "cutting through" perceived deadlocks. And nothing cuts through the deadlock at hand like violence.
ReplyDeleteWithout saying whehter I find it persuasive or not, much of the social science in John Dean's book is dedicated toward demonstrating that those who are attracted to authoritarian movements (and therefore are more likely to be right-wing currently, although in the past have been attracted to left-wing authoritarian movements) are characterized by exactly the attributes you describe - a fear of and discomfort with ambiguity and complexity, a need for the safety of certainty and clarity, etc. - they often demand clear good/evil dichotomies and want a strong authority figure to protect them while crushing the Evil.
It is a personality type based on fear, insecurity and a sense of inadequacy and the movement soothes their fears, provided that it maintains its moral certainty and power.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDelete"My question to the thread is this: does anyone see any ideological or policy counter-weight presently available in play to halt the present march into the sea?"
No. Your question assumes that there was a policy considered and put in place to stop the current venture in the Middle East. The unfolding of events, the statements of policy rendered by the Bush Admin both on its own and through its shadow authority the PNAC, demonstrate that the present course is precisely what was sought.
The desire is not for a true Islam vs JudeoChristianity cultural/religion war of the sort that Neutered Gingerboy has called WW 3.
The desire is for continued militarism to completely destabilize the Middle East for the purpose of two primary objectives:
1) US control over petroleum and petrodelivery systems located there.
2) Israel security, including the rarely mentioned water rights.
The means to achieve these two goals are uncoordinated military skirmishing such as now is happening, and the construction of a long-term strategic physical presence in the region (Halliburton currently building such) both via puppet governments and via actual military presence.
This can be quite easily achieved if you sell it to the American Public as a war on terrorism, a defense of JudeoChristian values against Muslim savages, and a firm demonstration that the USA is committed to democracy around the world. Of course, these sales pitches are quite false and are definitely puffery, but nobody said that the Bush Admin or the PNAC were lacking in shrewdness or cunning.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteyankeedragon, OpEdNews.com provides seven ME experts' suggestions "for defusing this crisis." But as Israel and Condoleeza Rice are correct in pointing out, resolving this crisis does not take care of the problem of peace in the ME.
ReplyDeleteThat solution requires many concessions on both sides--things that are simply not going to be easy for any one of the antagonists to accept.
Needless to say, I think the Bush admin's policy of letting Israel serve as street bully is not going to work. There is no political will in Israel or the Arab world to see this conflict stop. The corrupt Arab regimes want a curb put on the grass-roots extremists, Israel wants Iran taken out, the US wants to ensure the flow of oil.
There it is for now...
It is a personality type based on fear, insecurity and a sense of inadequacy
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking of Poweline Scott is now saying that liberals can’t really be Jews, because their “true” religion is “liberalism.”
Finally, on a subject that hits close to home for me, Professor David Gelernter asks why so many American Jews hate the president who stands by Israel: "When will they ever learn..." Professor Gelernter suggests that the answer has something to do with the phenomenon that we dubbed Chaitred -- the generalized, irrational hatred of President Bush articulated first by Jonathan Chait in a September 2003 New Republic article. We linked to Chait's article and our series of posts on it in "Thoughts on Chaitred." My answer to the question explored by Professor Gelertnter, slightly different from Professor Gelernter's, is that the true religion of the American Jews within Professor Gelernter's sights is liberalism, and that this liberalism represents an intelligence failure of another kind.
In the last election we were told that liberals and Democrats couldn’t be Christians, and now they can’t be Jews either.
I guess that means that the majority of Jews in this country are no longer Jews - or something.
Isn’t it great that Scott gets to define who is and who is not a Jew?
Oy.
Yankee asks:
ReplyDeletedoes anyone see any ideological or policy counter-weight presently available in play to halt the present march into the sea?
Right here in this forum. The 33 percent approval ratings, and the ever so slow realization through out the DNC, and political independents, that people want something different. (ask Joementum)
Going further, is there enough of a sea change happening now to counter this march to the cliff?
Sadly, I don't feel there is enough pressure to counter the current slide. My guess would be there is a feeling of desparation in and around this administration because they know there's a good possibility they could lose the senate, and a remote possibility they could lose the house. What better way to go into the elections with what they perceive as a winning hand than have our nation in the grip of a much broader war. Their drums are beating, and it would take the entire country to mobilize and stop this insanity BEFORE we start shooting.
But, as we know this administration does not listen OR talk to anyone. (remember to them it's a sign of weakness) So, we'd have to rip power from their hands to keep this from spiraling out of control. (Iraq, now in midst of its own death rattle is a perfect example of that)
In short I can smell the salt air and don't really feeling like taking a swim but, there are so many brown furry creatures pushing and shoving to try and get in the briny deep that I think they are going to take us all with them.
Pablo:
ReplyDelete"Are you going to correct the falsity in the first line of this post? Or are you content to take bullshit potshots at the USA from your perch in Brazil?"
Heh, I just found your retarded statement hilarious and hypocritical. So all you Keyboard Commandos: When are you and the Chickenhawks planning to enlist and fight over there in Iraq for, you know, 'Democracy' and prove your Nationalism--not Patriotism--pride instead of sitting on the leather chair in the air condition-controlled room and masturbating over pictures of dead Iraqi children?
those who are attracted to authoritarian movements ... are characterized by ... a fear of and discomfort with ambiguity and complexity, a need for the safety of certainty and clarity, etc. - they often demand clear good/evil dichotomies and want a strong authority figure to protect them while crushing the Evil.
ReplyDeleteSounds exactly like EWO!
Yankee: does anyone see any ideological or policy counter-weight presently available in play to halt the present march into the sea?
ReplyDeleteThe military.
Unlike some other cultures, ours doesn't see suicide as a heroic thing to do.
If the idea of an outright escalation is advocated by this administration, I think you'll see a pushback from the military like you haven't seen one before.
Compare this to what the courts are doing these days: they are not going blindly with the administration. They are doing what they believe is right.
The system of checks and balances still works as well as it does despite this administration's best efforts to undermine it, is that there are still people with integrity out there.
Thankfully, the military is one place where - unlike in politics and (mostly) journalism - honor and integrity still mean something.
What does any of this have to do with the U.S. bombing Syria and/or Iran?
ReplyDeleteIran and Syria are both sponsors of Hezbullah, as I am sure you know. If they involve themselves in the current Israel/Lebanon conflict as they have in the Iraqi conflict, then they deserve to be bombed by the US.
Glen, we can drag this out for another 60 years or we can attempt to put an end to it once and for all. It's one bad choice or the other, but to continue the status quo only ensures a longer slower bleed for everyone involved.
Do me a favor and don't try to turn my comment into something that favors the deaths of innocents, because I don't wish anyone dead. I do wish for real peace that only comes when the enemy of freedom has been totally destroyed.
"The truth is, history gives us plenty of examples in which unrestrained ruthlessness succeeded in pacifying large areas, including the Middle East."
ReplyDeleteYes, but two things: mass communications, and high explosives.
That's why the 'two well placed tactical nukes' fantasy above - aside from being amoral and disguting - is also not likely to actually work. Indeed, in this case, we have the same mistake as the administration made: state vs. nonstate actors. Regardless of the historical questions re: WWII, Japan, and the Bomb - a whole 'nother issue - we're talking about a state. Since there is no Terroristan, well . . . actually doing so would presumably put us in the same situation as a man with a rocket laucher who just knocked down a nest of hornets.
(Also, Tamurlane's empire basically died with him; Stalin's USSR - well, that one's easy. )
-Dan S.
KSFO radio host calling for the killing of all Lebanese,
ReplyDeleteI tried to post this yesterday and messed up the HTML. Please listen to this clip and help me decide. Is Lee Rogers calling for the genocide of the Lebanese or of all Arabs? How will he weasel word his way out of it if I ask, "Did you or did you not say we need to kill all the Lebanese?"
Is Lee Rogers calling for the genocide of the Lebanese or of all Arabs?
ReplyDeleteI didn't hear it that way at all. I heard it as killing all of Hezbollah, not all Lebanese or all Arabs, although you can certainly hear calls for both at various places in Right Blogostan.
From anonymous at 6:07pm:
ReplyDeleteI do wish for real peace that only comes when the enemy of freedom has been totally destroyed.
So you're in favor of all-out war against countries that haven't attacked the US, all because we have some unspecified mandate to fight 'the enemy of freedom'? I'm sure there's some logic to this line of thinking, but frankly it eludes me.
For a more informed take on this new crisis in Lebanon, I direct you to
http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/the_rut_becomes.html#more
The short of it: Hezbollah is not a two-bit fringe militia dependent solely upon international benefactors, but a highly organized political movement with both substantial military and financial assets that is well-entrenched in Lebanon and has agents throughout the world. They have twice already shown capable of carrying out carefully targeted attacks as far away as Agentina. It is frankly unlikely Israel can or will eliminate the organization with this latest military action.
Thus far, the current crisis is solely limited to Lebanon. Expanding it, no matter the pretext, will likely invite retaliation that may well rival - if not exceed - the damage and losses inflicted by the 9/11 attacks.
Something to think about.
Exactly who are you talking to gribbit?
ReplyDeleteI think this post is one of the most important things Glenn has written to date.
ReplyDeleteAt the core of everything is the issue of authoritarianism and I think a general aversion to authoritarianism is what most binds the majority of the commenters on this thread and the host to his commenters.
I post the interview below because read in conjunction with this magnificent post by Glenn it offers a very valuble perspective into the nub of the present crisis in America.
Lebanon president: We will fight invaders
'Violence brings violence ... everybody will lose,' Lahoud says
Friday, July 21, 2006; Posted: 9:22 p.m. EDT (01:22 GMT)
Lebanese President Emile Lahoud is calling for a cease-fire but says the country will defend itself if invaded.
In an interview with CNN's Nic Robertson, Lahoud again called for a cessation of the violence and said that if a cease-fire can't be brokered, the Lebanese army is prepared to defend the country -- and Lebanese solidarity ultimately will save the nation.
ROBERTSON: Mr. Lahoud, it's now 10 days into this war. Is your country any closer to a cease-fire?
LAHOUD: I'm afraid to say it is not. And really all the time, massacres are happening in Lebanon. All the infrastructure is being hit and we are paying very high price. We have women, children, all are being hit by planes. And they never stop, people think that they will stop for a few hours. They go out to get their food or anything and suddenly they are hit again. This is a real massacre. (Watch Lahoud's complete interview -- 10:25)
ROBERTSON: Do you think that the war is spiraling out of control and getting worse?
LAHOUD: It is getting much worse, and day after day more targets are getting hit. As you know the airport has been hit, all bridges, big bridges, small bridges, and now the roads. Only yesterday, only 200 meters from here, at 11 at night, they hit the road. Just like this, they are creating fear and, really, it is cycling to the point of no return. That is why that as soon as possible we are asking that there be a cease-fire.
ROBERTSON: Is there enough diplomacy under way, international diplomacy, to bring that cease-fire?
LAHOUD: Yes, we've had lots of visitors coming from abroad. But unfortunately they are talking, going, and coming and talking all the time but with no result. And this makes us think, is there anything behind that? Do they want to give more time to Israel to hit more?
ROBERTSON: Do they?
LAHOUD: Well, I think they are giving more time to Israel to hit, thinking that maybe Hezbollah will give up. Hezbollah will not give up. And because of that there will be more casualties, more destruction.
ROBERTSON: But as commander in chief of the army, why don't you tell the Lebanese army to stop Hezbollah and then bring an end to this?
LAHOUD: Well, if you knew the interior politics of Lebanon, you will understand that in 2000 Hezbollah was the main liberator of our land. And at the time, the Lebanese army was and still is with what is happening on the frontier. Because, you see, what was happening was Israel with airplanes ... but having the resistance, they think twice. And because of that there is no animosity between the army and the resistance. ... The resistance are Lebanese.
ROBERTSON: Do you mean the army supports Hezbollah at this time in their fight against Israel?
LAHOUD: Believe me, what we get from our side is nothing compared to if there is an internal conflict in Lebanon. So out thanks comes when we are united, and we are really united, and the national army is doing its work according to the government, and the resistance is respected in the whole Arab world from the population point of view. And very highly respected in Lebanon as well.
ROBERTSON: If you were to call on the army now to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel, to stop Israel therefore attacking Lebanon. Would that divide the army along sectarian lines? Would the Shiites in the army go with Hezbollah?
LAHOUD: In the first place, I wouldn't give such an order. Believe me, Hezbollah has done a lot for Lebanon in liberating this land. ... Hezbollah is part of the government.
ROBERTSON: Would you call upon the Lebanese army to join the fight if Israel invades on a land invasion in large numbers across the border? (Watch how mismatched the Lebanese army would be against Israel -- 1:45)
LAHOUD: Of course, the army is going to defend its land, and inside Lebanon they can do a lot. They cannot be strong enough to be against Israel on the frontier, because they have much more stronger materiel and weaponry. Inside [Lebanon] they know the land and, of course, they will fight the invading folks of Israel if it tries to come inside.
ROBERTSON: You will give them an order to go fight along the border?
LAHOUD: It's not Lahoud who gives them the order, it's the government. And I'm sure the government will give the order not to allow Israelis to invade Lebanon, for sure.
ROBERTSON: How close is this country to moving its army into the fight now?
LAHOUD: Well, I can't tell you now. What we're thinking is to have a cease-fire. That's what we're thinking because things that have been happening have not been happening before. I'll give you an example: Only yesterday, 23 tons of ammunition explosives came on one building, one mosque that is being built. That is more than is a tactical nuclear bomb. That means that they are using like a tactical nuclear [bomb]. But because [it is] conventional weaponry, no one is saying anything. But the result is really havoc, and we can not accept it. So before thinking about anything else and telling the army what to do and all that, the international community must really, as soon as possible, stop this killing, stop this fire. And then after that we can talk about what to do.
ROBERTSON: What are the terms of a deal that have to be worked out, and who is going to tell Hezbollah to stop fighting?
LAHOUD: If there is a cease-fire then they will start talking about everything. ... And they were discussing it, and they postponed the meeting for the end of this month to talk about the same subject. So why not let the Lebanese between themselves solve this thing?
ROBERTSON: Can the Lebanese government accept a buffer zone, an international buffer zone, with the strength of U.N. force between Lebanon and Israel?
LAHOUD: All of these subjects can be talked about after the cease-fire, because if you talk about it now it's up to the decision of the Lebanese to decide that and the government. Now, if we start talking about this, this is between the Lebanese, and probably that is what Israel is trying to do because by hitting all the time it makes maybe some Lebanese have conflict with other Lebanese. And it has been trying six years to do that. ... And now that the Lebanese are united they are trying to find a way to divide them.
We're going to stay united, and that's what makes the strength of Lebanon. And we want ourselves to solve our problems, not to force these problems on us. Because when you force these problems, believe me, when we are united nobody can do it. And the proof is that when in 2000 nobody believed we could liberate our land but we could do it because the Lebanese were united and the national army was with the united Lebanon and with the resistance.
ROBERTSON: Not everyone supports Hezbollah, and there are divisions in this community. And this country fought a 15-year civil war over those divisions. Those divisions are re-emerging below the surface of support of the attacks that are going on. Those figures could realistically grow bigger.
LAHOUD: Yes, but we're not going to let them. Because the Lebanese have learned the lesson. Because when they fight between themselves it's much worse than having someone come from outside. Because we've seen what happened in '75 because we paid a very high price. Now, being united, whatever Israel can do, we stay strong because this makes the morale of the Lebanese stronger when they are united and no one can beat them.
ROBERTSON: Having so many displaced people moving around the country, half a million according to the U.N., raising tensions. We saw a situation yesterday where displaced people told us they were being turned away from collection centers along sectarian, religious and ethnic lines.
LAHOUD: Believe me, this is not true because they are welcome in all our homes. And all Lebanese are saying whoever wants to come is very welcome, and they have made centers all over Lebanon to welcome them. ... So let's live together and, like the late Pope John Paul said, let Lebanon, who has 17 different religious sects, is a message to the world that we can live together. So, if we can live together under stress like now, and after this finishes we can become even stronger. And it will be a strong message to the world that religious sectarians and people in the world can live together in peace and harmony.
ROBERTSON: Are there any behind-the-scenes diplomatic talks under way that are going to de-escalate the situation right now?
LAHOUD: Well, we hope so. Talks are being made and many are trying to find ways how to solve things but they are slow.
ROBERTSON: Is there anything concrete on the table? Any concrete plans?
LAHOUD: Until now, no. We have just heard secretary-general of the U.N. He proposed the plan and said we'll talk about it. But children are being killed, massacred. And we don't see these pictures of these children in the international media because of political reasons. If you see them, well you can't wait to talk about it and wait for these children and women with nowhere to go and live under bombs and shells. They just live outside. They don't have a shelter. We can't wait for the talks to go on. Meanwhile the aircrafts are bombing whatever they want in Lebanon. It never happened. ... I don't see anything in history that has happened like what is happening now. Airplanes are hitting civilians all over the country and [there is no] retaliation on these airplanes because they are civilians. Now, they want to solve this, they must stop the fire and sit around the table and talk about this.
ROBERTSON: But if there is nothing on the table right now, the implication is that this is going to spiral out of control, get worse, and spread throughout the region.
LAHOUD: Exactly, and that's why we're saying we don't want to reach the point of no return.
ROBERTSON: Are you at the point of no return yet?
LAHOUD: Not yet.
ROBERTSON: How close?
LAHOUD: We are close, but not yet. We can do a lot if we can stop the fighting now.
ROBERTSON: Days or weeks?
LAHOUD: I hope ... that we solve this problem before it escalates and then we can't stop it. Believe me, violence brings violence, and it will be a cycle that no one will be able to get out of and everybody will lose. If Israel thinks it's going to win, it's very mistaken. You cannot solve things and have peace in the region with violence. It might be now they have all this weaponry. But what about the children and the people who have brothers and sisters now dying? Well, they're pushing them to, really, well, they don't have anything to lose. For them, their life is nothing, so whatever will do to them. In the future they will seek revenge. So the only way [is] to stop the firing right now for the good of everybody.
ROBERTSON: There's no timeframe yet for Secretary Rice to visit the region, how much does that concern you?
LAHOUD: Well, I can tell you it was said two days ago that she was coming and she didn't come. ... But it's not coming and going that counts, it's the solution that counts. We hope they have a solution for the cease-fire.
ROBERTSON: What's the solution that's going to work here?
LAHOUD: Cease-fire and then we talk.
ROBERTSON: How do you get the cease-fire? The Israelis want their soldiers back.
LAHOUD: There were three in Lebanon that have been in prison since 30 years. And there were many, and there was an exchange. So why now, suddenly, after taking two soldiers they have done such a retaliation? Because I believe all was planned from before and, unfortunately, they were waiting for the moment. And when the moment came and these two soldiers were taken, they had the plan of attack. It's not for the reason that the soldiers were taken, it's for other reasons. Because since 2000 they have wanted to take their revenge because they had to leave Lebanon. They have other things in mind as well.
ROBERTSON: Why didn't the government keep Hezbollah under control if the situation is so potentially divisive?
LAHOUD: All I can say is now two soldiers have been taken and in response they are doing massive destruction in Lebanon. Is that right? I don't think so because it is very disproportionate. Two soldiers have been taken, and in the past soldiers have been taken and they exchange. So now, why they are doing that? Because they have a previous plan and they are executing that plan in that way thinking they will do what they did in '82. But things have changed since '82.
ROBERTSON: How?
LAHOUD: Because it's not like '82 that they can come in Lebanon and make a promenade until they reach Beirut. These people, underground Lebanese, are ready to die for their land.
ROBERTSON: Hezbollah?
LAHOUD: Not only Hezbollah, many people are ready to die for their land. Wouldn't you do that if they go inside your country? You'd do the same. And the Lebanese army as well. We're not going to let anyone take our land. We've done it in the past, we liberated our land. We're not going to let them come back and take it from us.
ROBERTSON: How bad is the humanitarian situation right now?
LAHOUD: It's a catastrophe. If I told you there's nothing to eat, nothing to put fuel in their cars, electricity is nearly always stopped. You can't go on the road because you don't know when an aircraft hits you. ... And we know very well, by the satellite you can see the number of the part. So how can they make that mistake? They're using these ways to make people afraid and leave the country and then bring down the morale of the people. And then at the end they come and occupy and do what they did at the end of '82, or change everything in Lebanon and have it the way they want it like they did in '82. We're not going to let them.
ROBERTSON: How bad is the destruction? How long will it take the country to rebuild? How much will it cost the country?
LAHOUD: Only today I [was] told that everything is going up quickly. Now it's $3 billion, only two days ago it was $2 billion. ... Well, some bridges take five years to build, so it will take the same. But even then we don't want to reach the point of no return. Because once you reach the point of return, it becomes desperate, and he's ready to die for his country and this becomes a big problem for everybody.
Bullies (authoritarians are all bullies---informed people never turn over their freedoms willingly; it has to be taken from them by force or by duplicity) try to divide and conquer. In Lebanon and in the United States.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other." Lincoln's 'House-Divided' Speech in Springfield, Illinois, June 16, 1858.
It appears that the neo-cons in this country like bart think that the Depends crowd of cowardly wimps who are so afraid of their own shadows that they are willing to give up their liberty are a world-wide majority, including in Lebanon.
Seems like the Lebanese people have a lot more in common with Baldie eagle and Pallidoris.
If you consider the sheer folly of the thinking of those who led us into Iraq, that pales now beside the folly of thinking a nation is just going to hand over their country to foreigners without a fight because their bullies demand they do so or their bullies tell them one of their internal allies is really an enemy that they should themselves eradicate leaving them entirely defenseless and at the mercy of anyone who wants to promandade in with a puppet in tow and steal their country from them.
I think you all are living in an illusion. You cry about conservatives supporting Israel's right to defend itself from terrorist. Despite whether this particular group has attacked the U.S. or not, do you all think it would be better to just let the mad killers continue to exist? How does this solve anything?
ReplyDeleteShould we just leave these well funded, well organized murderers alone. Shouldn't the entire world be working to end this stuff? Sincerely, please tell me how a "cease fire" would do anything to stop these terrorist organizations. Shouldn't we all have the moral obligation to condemn these killers and do everything we can to put a stop to it?
Do you people really think that appeasing these people will end their hostilities. Really? Are you all that naive?
(Also, Tamurlane's empire basically died with him; Stalin's USSR - well, that one's easy. )
ReplyDeleteSure, but then I WAS being sarcastic. It is true that unrestrained barbarity can pacify a region for a while. I wouldn't bet on the long term, though, and I sure don't want to be associated with those who do.
Seriously, what are you people offering towards actually fixing the root problem? Nothing. And how will that help?
ReplyDeletePolitical muscle can turn a complex and nuanced discussion about an equally complex and nuanced reality into a simple either this or that.
ReplyDeleteIt can't, however, do much about the reality. When I ponder this as a political problem, I don't think first neocons, I think of Phoenix, about 100 miles south of me. When the average peak temperature for three months of the year goes from 102 to 103 degrees, and the cost to air-condition a house for a month goes from $50 to $55, someone who asserts that global warming is a serious crisis can be shouted down, regardless of the evidence.
By the time the average peak temperature for those three months gets to be 125 degrees, or 130 degrees, and the cost of air conditioning a house for a month goes to $500, it essentially doesn't matter who you shout down.
The neocon problem is the same. Right now, they're on the horse; they can shout anyone down. Five years from now, or ten years from now, they'll be lucky to be selling apples in the streets.
An instructive example, I think, regardless of how inflammatory it is, is HItler.
In the summer of 1940, he didn't have to shout, he merely had to raise an eyebrow. By the winter of 1941, he was shouting at his generals. By the winter of 1944, he was reduced to shouting at himself. By the next Spring, there was silence.
Reality can do that to a bully, any bully.
From john at 7:30pm:
ReplyDeleteDo you people really think that appeasing these people will end their hostilities. Really? Are you all that naive?
Are you all that shortsighted that you think the US becoming involved in and expanding this conflict will actually accomplish anything positive or in any way enhance our nation's security? Are you really that foolish?
Here are a few realities:
1. This isn't our fight; it's Israel's. Hezbollah hasn't attacked the US (at least so far as can be definitively proven) and has itself proven receptive to diplomatic overtures.
2. Hezbollah isn't a 'terrorist organization', but is a political organization/movement that employs terrorist attacks as one of its weapons. It has also restrained itself in its operations, seeking to achieve its ends through diplomatic and political pressure rather than violence alone.
3. Even forgetting these two points, here's a single inescapable reality: the United States will continue to be a target and will continue to be vulnerable to terrorist attacks no matter what we do or don't do with respect to this crisis!
Hezbollah isn't just a collection of "mad killers", any more than the US and Israel is populated solely by "angels from heaven". Reducing this mess to a simple 'us versus them' is unproductive and can only lead to poor choices on our part.
This conflict between Hezbollah and Israel is primarily a territoral one with a lot of religious overtones, as is so much of the conflict in that sad region. Until all sides are sick and tired of war, these conflicts will persist.
That doesn't mean the US can or should become any further involved or be perceived (although it may already be too late to prevent that) as favoring one side over the other, lest we only draw out and escalate the bloodshed further.
What silenced Hitler? It certainly wasn't appeasement.
ReplyDeleteYou can whine about the neocons and hawks all day long. My complaint is that you are not offering any reasonable alternative to a solution. I'm not just talking about Israel. It seems that the majority on the left have adopted a pacifist, appeasement mentality. I'm saying that it won't solve anything.
Seriously, what is that you people want? If you want peace, then can't stand by while evil is destroying it.
You admit that no matter what we do the wars will continue. And why shouldn't we favor one side over the other? One side is within our interests, and the others are terrorists! I think we have already condemned all terrorist networks. Do you not?
ReplyDeleteAnd again, I ask you what your side of the argument is offering towards a solution? I don't think we are going to enter this war unless we are provoked by them attacking us. But if Israel started to lose this fight, would you advise we stand by, watch, and do nothing? Let the terrorists win?
John: My complaint is that you are not offering any reasonable alternative to a solution.
ReplyDeleteYou've not been around here very long. If you'd actually like to see some proposals, check the previous thread, or the archives generally.
Nevertheless, it has to be asked: has it ever occurred to you that, thanks to folks who've taken positions like yours, there may not actually be a solution at this point?
Unless, of course, one has a fondness for final solutions like the commenters here whose eyes go all misty, and whose voice deepens as they breathlessly mention the possibility of nuking somebody.
Death, like reality, is a harsh mistress.
From john at 8:04pm:
ReplyDeleteMy complaint is that you are not offering any reasonable alternative to a solution.
Seriously, what is that you people want? If you want peace, then can't stand by while evil is destroying it.
You don't understand, do you? Or is it that you can't understand?
This isn't about 'good' or 'evil', both highly mutable and subjective concepts. This isn't even about this current conflict, or the larger regional one, the seeds of both having been planeted centuries ago.
Quite bluntly, there may well be NO REALISTIC SOLUTION TO BE OFFERED SHORT OF WHOLESALE GENOCIDE that will address any of the underlying issues or conflicts that are fueling this tragedy.
The most we can hope for is that some kind of cease-fire is agreed to or imposed and the loss of life minimized. If anyone can offer a comprehensive alternative, I'm listening.
So you're in favor of all-out war against countries that haven't attacked the US, all because we have some unspecified mandate to fight 'the enemy of freedom'? I'm sure there's some logic to this line of thinking, but frankly it eludes me.
ReplyDeleteI was referring to backing Israels play to destroy Hezbollah. But since you asked, they have attacked the US and the result was over 200 dead marines. In addition, it is they who are causing civilian casualties in Lebanon by using the tactic of hiding amnogst the civilians. Of course, this does not seem to bother you much. Why is that?
So tell me what logic there is in allowing Hezbollah to continue to exist?
And a fickle one, too, if I may say so.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, what are you people offering towards actually fixing the root problem? Nothing. And how will that help?
ReplyDeleteBy the massive destruction of infrastructure and indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, Israel is just digging itself deeper into a hole by increasing the popularity and support for Hezbollah.
How does that fix the root of the problem? It doesn’t. And what is the U.S. response to Israel’s self-destructive behavior. Oh, you’re digging yourself deeper into trouble, well, let us help – here’s some bigger and better shovels, and we’ll keep the international community from trying to help you stop your digging too.
Dig deeper, Israel, deeper into your quagmire, and now “our” quagmire, because the world knows that U.S. taxpayers are paying for the bomb that ripped the head off that little baby on Billmon’s most recent post.
Both Israel and the U.S. are acting in a totally irrational and in self-destructive manner, but no one is capable of stopping them.
And it’s because of people like you, who can’t see that we’re acting exactly like the irrational religious fanatics who strap suicide bombs to themselves, accept our “suicide bombs” are dropped from high tech weaponry.
Oh, we’re in the process of suicidal behavior all right, it’s just that when we decide to destroy ourselves, it isn’t an immediate explosion, but a long, slow, and painful death, but we still have brought it on ourselves.
Lebanon president: We will fight invaders
ReplyDelete'Violence brings violence ... everybody will lose,' Lahoud says
Spare me the crocodile tears. Those who harbor terrorists are on the same moral plane as the terrorists themselves. Israel has at least as much justification for bombing Beirut as we had for bombing Kabul after 9/11 or Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki after Pearl Harbor. Actually Israel has considerably more justification, as they have a special mandate from G-d to be the caretakers of HIS holy land.
From john at 8:09pm:
ReplyDeleteAnd why shouldn't we favor one side over the other? One side is within our interests, and the others are terrorists!
As I've already pointed out, Hezbollah isn't purely a terrorist organization, but a political one and is not, at present, an avowed enemy of the US. And I would argue that under present circumstances, Israel is not "within our interests" if supporting them results in still more declared enemies against us.
I think we have already condemned all terrorist networks. Do you not?
I do condemn terrorist networks and agree Hezbollah shares the responsibility for this crisis and conflict. That however is utterly immaterial to the question of whether or not the US should become more deeply involved in this mess.
But if Israel started to lose this fight, would you advise we stand by, watch, and do nothing? Let the terrorists win?
Should it come to that, I doubt anyone would object to the US offering greater assistance to Israel. However keep in mind which side's troops are moving in which direction, and which side is actually escalating this crisis.
"Terrorists" only "win" when they keep their targets 'terrorized'. I daresay Israel is anything but terrified at this point, and at present reading none of its neighbors possess or are mustering sufficient military strength to destroy the country.
Again, that however is utterly immaterial to the question of whether or not the US should become more deeply involved in this mess.
Come to that, do you have some plan to bring peace to this all-too-troubled region, or are you simply in favor of still more and more bloodshed?
Anonymous: So tell me what logic there is in allowing Hezbollah to continue to exist?
ReplyDeleteHow about Romans 12:19:
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
This, of course, is not logic per se, and requires a bit of deciphering for non-believers, but as wisdom born of centuries of experience in human affairs, it's hard to beat.
From anonymous at 8:18pm:
ReplyDeleteBut since you asked, they have attacked the US and the result was over 200 dead marines. In addition, it is they who are causing civilian casualties in Lebanon by using the tactic of hiding amnogst the civilians. Of course, this does not seem to bother you much. Why is that?
First, it has never been conclusively proven that Hezbollah was the one's responsible for the Marine barracks bombing. Oh, its good odds they may have had a hand in it, but that doesn't translate into them being the guilty party.
Second, the current tactics they employ are indeed reprehensible and as responsible for the number of civilian deaths as the bombs dropped by the Israelis. I condemn both sides thoroughly for that.
So tell me what logic there is in allowing Hezbollah to continue to exist?
At what point have I suggested Hezbollah should 'allowed' to continue to exist? I've merely been pointing to the inescapable reality that they do continue to exist and will likely continue to do so in one form or another whatever the outcome of this current conflict.
Personally, I dearly wish they would disarm and disband, thereby giving Lebanon a chance to rebuild itself. Of course I also dearly wish the entire Bush Administration would resign en mass and we could get some competent people into power.
Neither, however, is likely to happen any day soon.
From anonymous at 8:28pm:
ReplyDeleteActually Israel has considerably more justification, as they have a special mandate from G-d to be the caretakers of HIS holy land.
You've just illustrated why we'll likely never see peace in that region: the Jews claim to be the 'chosen people', the Christians claim Jesu Ben Joseph was the 'son of God', and Islam's tenents were reportedly dictated directly to Mohammed by the Archangel Gabriel.
When everyone's claiming to have the unique and prime mandate from the almighty, it doesn't leave much room for compromise or argeement.
Glenn, are you aware dipshite is still here?
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon writes 2. Hezbollah isn't a 'terrorist organization', but is a political organization/movement that employs terrorist attacks as one of its weapons. It has also restrained itself in its operations, seeking to achieve its ends through diplomatic and political pressure rather than violence alone.
ReplyDeleteThe United States also uses terrorists through its intellgence divisions including the CIA.
I just finished reading a highly interesting book called The Camel Club which I recommend to my fellow commenters.
It's one of the best decriptions of secret operations used by the United States (it's fictional so one cannot tell what is fiction or fact but it appears from the credits that much of the book had a great deal of input from agencies of the United States Government so it would appear much of the information is reality based).
Readers of this blog will have a strange sense of recognition when reading that book. It deals with many of the issues which are most discussed on this blog.
Anyone read it?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"Sure, but then I WAS being sarcastic."
ReplyDeleteI know. Just thought I'd throw that in for folks who might not . . . .
"Seriously, what are you people offering towards actually fixing the root problem? Nothing. And how will that help?"
July, 1914 . . .
"I just don't think we should enter into what is really a dispute between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, despite the general atmosphere of excitement, enthusiasm, and near euphoria . . ."
"Nonsense! Seriously, what are you people offering towards actually fixing the root problem? Nothing. And how will that help?"
-Dan S.
dipshit
ReplyDeletethe other day you were going on and on about Olmert's storied military career. Not that it really matters, since it's a collateral issue, but someone asked you what military service he had besides being a journalist in the military. I believe your answer was something like this, "........."
care to follow up?
dipshit, your points are valid and well thought out.
ReplyDeleteOr, I mean... your name is valid and well thought out.
From SFgate.com:
ReplyDeleteOn the Canadian news-and-commentary Web site Rabble.ca, commentator Rick Salutin looks at another moral angle of the current Israel-Hezbollah-Lebanon crisis. He wrotes: "It is obscene for our government to expend effort rescuing Canadians from a war zone [in Lebanon] while refusing to call for a ceasefire and working to achieve it. The same conditions threaten Lebanese civilians as menace ours. They are as human and as innocent as our own citizens, and we owe them a moral duty. If evacuation is urgently needed, then so is a ceasefire."
Peter McCabe/AP
Lebanese supporters of their countrymen back in Lebanon demonstrate in Montreal, Canada
He adds, referring to the Israeli military's actions of the past several days: "It is obscene to demolish infrastructure such as power plants, roads, bridges or airports merely because they are used by those you are fighting. Infrastructure of that sort is the skeleton of civilized life, used by everyone. Why not bomb orchards, supermarkets and cows? Terrorists use them, too."
ReplyDeletethe Christians claim Jesu Ben Joseph was the 'son of God',
For the record, Jesus IS the Son of God, and he will be coming VERY SOON to judge the living and the dead, including all of you losers!
Don't feed the trolls.
ReplyDelete-Dan S.
Hmm..how do I know you're not Greenwald, himself
ReplyDeleteThats right dip, everyone here is actually Greenwald, even you and I. Now that you know the truth there is no reason for you to come back again.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletedipshit
the other day you were going on and on about Olmert's storied military career. Not that it really matters, since it's a collateral issue, but someone asked you what military service he had besides being a journalist in the military. I believe your answer was something like this, "........."
care to follow up?
9:03 P.M.
Don't mind if I do...
(But, but, but.....CIA expert (giggle) Larry Johnson said Olmert never served in the military)
Olmert served with the Israel Defense Forces in the Golani combat brigade. While in service he was injured and temporarily released. He underwent many treatments. Later he completed his military duties as a journalist for the IDF magazine BaMahane. During the Yom Kippur war he joined the headquarters of Ariel Sharon as a military correspondent. Already a Knesset member, he decided to go through an Officer’s course, at the age of 35, in 1980.
From anonymous at 9:09pm:
ReplyDeleteFor the record, Jesus IS the Son of God, and he will be coming VERY SOON to judge the living and the dead, including all of you losers!
I'm sure that's your story and you'll stick to it.
anonymous: For the record, Jesus IS the Son of God, and he will be coming VERY SOON to judge the living and the dead, including all of you losers!
ReplyDeleteIf so, your immortal soul is in jeopardy -- not because you're a fool, but because you're a blasphemer. The Almighty has no need of soldiers, and no love for those who falsely claim to be his vicars.
Honestly, anon, what has religion got to do with any of this, except to prolong our agony? Give it up, please, I beseech you, and rejoin the human community.
anonymous: We're all Greenwald now.
ReplyDeleteIf only that were so. The world might actually be a better place. Still, I share the sentiment. How could I not?
How about Romans 12:19
ReplyDeleteHeh, a novel concept. Between you and me, there is much in that chapter that Hezbollah should take to heart. In the meantime, they continue to act as if the murder of Jews is holy writ. As such, I do believe that Israel has the right to attempt to destroy their capabilities to attack Israel. It is, as I have said, wholly unfortunate that Hezbollah has taken to using civilian populations as a shield, and as such the death of innocents is on their heads, not Israels.
As to the claim that one one can prove that Hezbollah was behind the Marine murders, it is a legally settled matter. From Wiki, although you can find it other places.
In May 2003, US District Court Judge Royce C. Lamberth declared that the Islamic Republic of Iran was responsible for the 1983 attack, on the grounds that Iran had originally founded Hezbollah and financed the group throughout the years
As to the claim that Hezbollah is split into a military and political wing which are seperable. Bollocks. A mistake made by the Brits that should never be repeated. It would be like allowing the KKK to split into acceptable and unacceptable factions. No can do. So don't.
Go check out Crooks and Liars, the president of the ABA is attacking the "Specter" FISA bill.
ReplyDeleteSeems that the ABA must really hate America.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/
2006/07/22/aba-blasts-the-specter-
nsa-bill-calls-for-congress-to-wake-
up/
Poor Bart...it's only the ABA; I'm sure you can convince them that the president needs unfettered power.
From anonymous at 9:25pm:
ReplyDeleteAs to the claim that one one can prove that Hezbollah was behind the Marine murders, it is a legally settled matter. From Wiki, although you can find it other places.
From the same wikipedia entry:
The responsibility for the bombing is uncertain. Most (notably the U.S. government) believe the Hezbollah militant group, backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for the bombings, as well as the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April of that year.
Emphasis mine. Learn to read the entire article before cherry-picking.
And I haven't claimed there are 'separable' wings to Hezbollah, nor am I suggesting we 'repeat' the mistakes of Great Britain (presumably vis a vis Northern Ireland). I'm merely pointing out Hezbollah is not a one-dimensional organization and that, historically, its been far less prone to indescriminate violence than other groups.
We're all Greenwald now.
ReplyDeleteYes, all sodomites, targets of divine wrath.
Glen: Re:support of Israel
ReplyDeleteHow does this compare to the U.S. position just before WWI, when Ford Motor, Bayer AG, and others were doing business with Imperial Germany and France also England?
The US was always supporting both sides and making good money doing so, thus keeping union labor well employed.
If the neo-cons cannot muster more
than 33%, any power cannot be held into a longer future.
Are you predicting an end on Jan. 20th 2009? If so, that will not end the war, but esclate it further
and expand it across to Europe and Aisa.
Any war without a win/loss ending can only create another Korean type of history to which we can see a folly now, but then appeared
to be the best choice.
Now that the lesson of the korea(s)
has been learned, it is to be avoided.
From anonymous at 9:25pm:
ReplyDeleteYes, all sodomites, targets of divine wrath.
Okay, if this is joke, its gotten old.
If its not, please keep such opinions to yourself and your comments relevant to the discussion at hand.
Oh dipshit, the issue was whether he had extensive military service, not desk duty after an accident. Was he the Commander of the gossip page deadline or the General of the lifestyle section?
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon
ReplyDeleteDespite your assertion, it is a legally settled matter and has been since 2003. So, I'm not sure where you think you are taking that.
As to the Hezbollah not being as bad as others, I suppose you can find some way to justify the murder and kidnap of Israeli soldiers that started us down this latest path to madness. To me, it seems like an act of war. What does it seem like to you?
According to the US State department, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Do you dispute this?
I know may like to think it is an open mind that will not assign one side to be the 'good' and one to be the 'bad' in this, but you are not helping anyone by doing so. Hezbollah is a monster, a real one. So when your parents told you there were no monsters in the world, they lied.
Now you know.
Something else to chew on. When Israel rightly left S lebabon in '96(?), why was Hezbollah not forced to disarm?
Now that the lesson of the korea(s)
ReplyDeletehas been learned, it is to be avoided.
Yes, and the people of Rwanda and now Sudan thank you so much for learning that lesson. As long as they murder their own, who cares?
Great. A lesson for the ages.
It doesn't matter how the '06 elections turn out, because Congress has no power over military activity.
ReplyDeleteEven its "power of the purse" depends on the Executive obeying Congressional budgetary dictates. Bush won't do that. He's already played fast and loose with the budget for Iraq (giving Congress obviously, ridiculously low numbers, calling expected additional expenditures "emergencies," moving money from one earmarked fund to another, without Congressional approval or even oversight).
Bush will do whatever he likes with military personnel and materiel, and either just keep putting it on the credit card, or diverting money meant for other programs. Actually, this would give him a golden opportunity to do what he's wanted to do all along to Social Security: destroy it utterly, on the grounds that "the money is needed for the war."
And there's nothing, absolutely nothing, Congress or the courts or the American people can do about it.
And there's nothing, absolutely nothing, Congress or the courts or the American people can do about it.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is the problem, exactly? (Apart from your diseased imagination?)
CaseyL
ReplyDeleteYou may want to sit down when you read this, because it is worse than you imagine. The party of the left is just not resonating with the people these days so it is entirely likely that in addition to keeping control of Congress in November (which is almost a lock at this point), it is also entirely likely that the next president will be a Republican. In addition, the war we are currently in will in all likelihood get wider before it ends.
Just thought you should know.
Also, the right, or the neocons, or whatever you wish to call them, are not your enemy. Try to remember that.
If its not, please keep such opinions to yourself and your comments relevant to the discussion at hand.
ReplyDeleteNo, you need to hear this
anon@10:18
ReplyDeleteNon-Sequitor
To comment on Africa, how do you plan to fix it?
When you hear LIBRAL or NEOCON, from us here, and our problems how
can we fix that(africa)??
The tribe(s) belive other tribes
are wrong and go to violent means to
deal with it.
Going there to hand out food?
Or install a free gov't?
Weighing in on Glenn's statement (about others' observations) that
ReplyDeletethey often demand clear good/evil dichotomies and want a strong authority figure to protect them while crushing the Evil.
Identifying good from evil is not a slipshod process. It takes an enormous amount of thought and collection of data to determine that which is evil from that which is good in any particular situation where the facts are not immediately available. Rational people who are moral draw conclusions from two sources: their own basic philosophy of good and evil and a wide body of facts about any particular situation.
Anyone who has the interest and takes the time to go through the vigorous process necessary to arrive at correct conclusions about highly complex situations is hardly likely to want to waive that process and want a strong authority figure to protect them while crushing the Evil.
Rational individuals make decisions for themselves and do not trust others, strong or weak, to make those decisions for them. Anyone who buys "protection" from a mobster is signing on to whatever tactics the mobster uses to facilitate that protection and allowing the mobster to also distinguish between those who truly are a threat and those who are not.
The individual, throughout history, has always been the enemy of "the collective". Authoritarians always travel in groups because they are essentially cowards.
Simplistic insults are characteristic of feeble minds.
It's pretty simple-minded to mistake an ability to be able to distinguish between black(good) and white(evil) with an appetite for authoritarianism.
However, it's not productive to debate concepts with a person who has no interest in facts or ability to conceptualize. You get muddy and the pig likes it so it's not the wisest choice of time. If I don't respond to any more comments from the fascist who is so upset by my comments that will be the reason. I write this because I don't want that bully to think I agree with any of the puerile observations he makes with reference to my philosophy. I'm simply dismissing him from now on.
From anonymous at 10:15pm:
ReplyDeleteDespite your assertion, it is a legally settled matter and has been since 2003. So, I'm not sure where you think you are taking that.
I'm not discussing Judge Lamberth's ruling, but a the simple fact we don't know exactly who is responsible for the 1983 bombing! A dozen Federal judges can make a dozen dozen rulings that state we hold Iran, Syria, and the Tooth Fair is responsible for the bombing, and it doesn't chance the underlying fact we don't know exactly who is responsible for the 1983 bombing!
That's my point. Simple enough, eh?
As to the Hezbollah not being as bad as others, I suppose you can find some way to justify the murder and kidnap of Israeli soldiers that started us down this latest path to madness. To me, it seems like an act of war. What does it seem like to you?
It seems, depending upon one's point of view and temperment:
1. an act of war
2. the act of a resistance movement striking against a hostile foreign power
All depends on your POV.
And, again, I haven't said Hezbollah is 'better' or 'not as bad' as other groups in the region. I'm simply pointing out its more complex a group than others. Treating as a one-dimensional, single-trick militia is a recipe for disaster.
According to the US State department, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Do you dispute this?
It that's the State Department's judgment, I can't help that. But then given who's in charge, it shouldn't be a surprise they don't think all that deeply.
Hezbollah is a monster, a real one.
Again, I don't dispute their tactics are reprehensible and their cause questionable. I don't support either.
Call them 'monsters' if it comforts you. I'll see them for what they are: human beings serving a cause they believe in.
Former congressman Tom Hayden describes his experience of the Israel Lobby during his term in office.
ReplyDeleteFrom anonymous at 10:40pm:
ReplyDeleteNo, you need to hear this
Thanks for the laughs. Now go away.
Thanks for the laughs. Now go away.
ReplyDeleteYou wish. Here's some more edification for you. A foretaste of what awaits you and your ilk in eternity.
anonymous at 10:37:
ReplyDeleteAlso, the right, or the neocons, or whatever you wish to call them, are not your enemy. Try to remember that.
I would slightly disagree with that position. Not to be cute or over the top anti-bush. But, to explain to you that what I see and many others (including the president of the american bar associaiton, John Dean, and many others at this blog and around this nation) believe that this administration and the right wing as it is currently constituted have proven themselves enemies to our constitutinal principles. And, they have used the language of fear to accomplish this goal of the imperial presidency.
They have attacked a country that did not attack us. The saber rattling over this current ME dustup by the right shows that they are willing to AGAIN attack another country (or countries!) that has not attacked us.
The neo-con insanity agenda is an enemy to the basic foundation of our society, the constitution.
I personally take a dim view of a movement, ideology, perverse cult...however you want to define these reckless shitheads that seeks to destroy our constitution in order to remake the ME. Maybe you're right that they are not an enemy in the sense that it's a call to arms to destroy them as they seek to destroy in this reckless horror show we've unleashed in Iraq and want to spread to the rest of the ME, but we have to stop this slide into the abyss.
Our liberty is at stake in their hands.