The new war in the Middle East has almost completely eclipsed the old war in Iraq, at precisely the time that Iraq appears to be on the verge of total collapse. How are things going in Iraq? Here is yesterday's article by The Independent's Patrick Cockburn, the Middle East correspondent who has been reporting from Iraq for several years (h/t Billmon):
The Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, meets Tony Blair in London today as violence in Iraq reaches a new crescendo and senior Iraqi officials say the break up of the country is inevitable.
"Iraq as a political project is finished," a senior government official was quoted as saying, adding: "The parties have moved to plan B." He said that the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish parties were now looking at ways to divide Iraq between them and to decide the future of Baghdad, where there is a mixed population. "There is serious talk of Baghdad being divided into [Shia] east and [Sunni] west," he said. . . .
But he painted a picture of a deeply divided administration in which senior Sunni members praised anti-government insurgents as "the heroic resistance".
Granted, the sources on whom Cockburn is relying likely have an interest in promoting a picture of chaos, but whatever else might be true, it is clear that the situation in Iraq is growing increasingly desperate and all sides are undoubtedly seriously considering every option, including partition along sectarian lines. Independently, news report leave no doubt that the security situation has worsened considerably, and Cockburn reports that this is because the Maliki Government is incapable of doing much of anything outside of the Green Zone:
Mr Maliki, who is said to be increasingly isolated, has failed to prevent the violence. Other Iraqi leaders claim he lacks experience in dealing with security, is personally very isolated without a kitchen cabinet and is highly dependent on 30-40 Americans in unofficial advisory positions around him.
"The government is all in the Green Zone like the previous one and they have left the streets to the terrorists," said Mahmoud Othman, a veteran Iraqi politician. He said the situation would be made worse by the war in Lebanon because it would intensify the struggle between Iran and the US being staged in Iraq. The Iraqi crisis would now receive much reduced international attention.
Maliki's current trip to Washington will, of course, be exploited for political benefit by the administration -- as has happened every time the latest "new, strong Iraqi leader" visits with great fanfare -- but this is part of what Maliki is saying during his trip, according to this morning's NY Times:
When Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki visits the White House on Tuesday for the first time, he is expected to make requests that clash sharply with President Bush’s foreign policy, Iraqi officials say, signaling a widening gap between the Iraqis and the Americans on crucial issues.
The requests will include asking President Bush to allow American-led troops in Iraq to be tried under Iraqi law, and to call for a halt to Israeli attacks on Lebanon,
according to several Iraqi politicians, and to a senior member of Mr. Maliki’s party who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to speak for the prime minister.
The Times also reports that "sectarian violence has soared despite the presence of the Americans," that Iraqis are growing increasingly furious over the alleged behavior of American troops, and that Maliki and his top allies "want to maintain strong ties to Iran." And he is insisting that there be no immunity for trying American troops for criminal acts.
So, to recap as dispassionately as possible -- Iraq is falling apart. There is apparently serious talk of dividing Baghdad, or even the country as a whole, along sectarian lines. Sectarian tension is at an all-time high, with continuous reprisal mass murders, and the government appears incapable of enforcing the law or maintaining even basic security, and worse, relies upon the good will of powerful, well-armed lawless militias and death squads just to maintain the level of chaos currently engulfing the country.
Meanwhile, for the very first serious crisis which arises in the Middle East, the Iraqi Government is on the opposite side of the U.S., condemning Israel's actions with increasing fervor. All the while, the government does not hide its intent to maintain strong alliances with Iran, the country we are told is now the worst threat to American interests and world peace. And all of this is occurring while we have 140,000 troops occupying the country and the Iraqi government is dependent upon them. Imagine what will happen in terms of Iraq's allegiances if we ever actually leave that country and that dependence no longer exists.
Our invasion of Iraq certainly ousted Saddam Hussein from power, but in his place will be a government that is a close ally of Iran, our new arch enemy, and which appears incapable of maintaining even basic stability for a long time to come, if it ever can. And we are told that Al Qaeda-type terrorists thrive in environments where there is a weak government and chaos, which happens to be exactly what we created in Iraq for the foreseeable future -- at the cost of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars, and counting. Is there even a single theoretical benefit to American security that we derived from our invasion and occupation of that country in exchange for the immeasurable damage we created and are enduring?
UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan today publishes an e-mail from an American solider in Iraq, reporting that "Baghdad has descended into complete anarchy" and that Iraqi police officers are afraid even to drive to Baghdad. Sullivan calls our invasion of Iraq, which he vocally supported, "one of the the biggest military fiascoes in American history." I realize there is always controversy generated when supporters of the war end up acknowledging that it was a mistake, but between someone who acknowledges error and those who continue to insist in the face of undeniable reality that things are going well in Iraq and that our invasion was the right thing to do, I will take the former over the latter every time.
Meanwhile, Spencer Ackerman points out that Moqtada Sadr appears to be sending his Mahdi Army militia to Lebanon to fight with Hezbollah against Israel -- a move which not only risks direct Iraqi Shiite-Israel conflict, but which also puts great pressure on the Maliki government to oppose Israel even more actively so as to avoid appearing controlled by the U.S. The possibilities for the U.S. to be dragged into a wider war in the Middle East are too numerous to count.
Spreading democracy through the region? Nope. Fighting the war on terror? Nah. The eternal glorification of our magnificent leader? Well, according to the three people who still support him...
ReplyDeleteOn the bright side, the flytrap theory will finally have a chance to work when we abandon Iraq. Iraq will no doubt prove to be Iran's Vietnam. It's all going according to the grand plan!
ReplyDeleteThe one theoretical benefit was the 2004 reelection of George W. Bush. As far as the GOP is concerned, that was the single most important thing that occurred as a result of the war. Every U.S. death, every Iraqi death, the increased number of people willing to engage in terrorism against the U.S. and U.S. interests, the nuclear developments in Iran and North Korea are mere annoyances when compared to the need to maintain the Presidency of our dear leader. I'm just waiting for Bullwinkle to come on stage, stand beside the hat on the table, and say, "For my next trick.."
ReplyDeleteI say this because I care.
ReplyDeleteThe United States and Israel, operating in cahoots or in an improbably series of coincidences, have managed to make life worse or over for everyone in the Middle East. Events are clearly beyond the control of either nation, and the fires they started are now blowing back toward them.
The people we attacked may have been nice or nasty. The people who will respond to those attacks will be nasty.
The United States is just fooling around in the Middle East, wasting blood and money. Israel is a very small part of the Middle East that has bitten off more than it can chew. Together, they have created a situation that may force them both to leave.
National policies are slow to change and often wrong. Individual Americans and Israelis should be doing what the more fortunate Iraqis and Lebanese are doing: Get out now. This will not end well.
I personally can't wait to hear how Bart and company try to defend this mess.
ReplyDeleteI distinctly remember Howard Dean being pilloried in the mainstream press for suggesting that invading Iraq will not make us safer.
ReplyDeleteHe was regarded as a lunatic at the time.
Here's what I keep asking everyone who insists we have to stay. Until WHAT happens exactly? What is it we hope we're going to accomplish? Because if the US Military can't maintain order, what makes you think an Iraqi one will?
He was regarded as a lunatic at the time.
ReplyDeletewas Dean REGARDED as a lunatic, or was he CALLED a lunatic?
That's our government in action today. Time to update the civics textbooks. Except that they have gone the way of the dinosaur . . .
"We have divided states in a republic, maybe they will as well"
ReplyDeleteOh..my...god. Yes, as a resident of Catholica how do you people who live in Mormonia feel about this?
It's not like we're talking about the partitioning of New Jersey and New York. We're talking about a partitioning along religious lines as a means of, hopefully, reducing the killing.
I sure hope this comment is not a precursor to the latest Republican attempt to move the goal posts. "We never said our goal was to have a free, pluralistic democratic Iraq. That's just not true and if you accuse us of saying that you are clearly with the terrorists. We said what we were doing was invading to create three countries who will be engaged in violent border wars forever because that's the best way to make sure we 'fight them there so we don't have to fight them here.'
Sounds ridiculous. Too ridiculous to entertain. Sadly, it wouldn't be the first time.
From shooter242 at 10:49am:
ReplyDeleteConsidering the killing is what you object to, it would behoove you to criticize those instigating the killing rather than those trying to contain it.
Well, I was wondering how they'd defend this. "Best defense is a good offense" and all that.
Guess I should have known better they'd be honest about it.
Uhh Shooter, I believe the point is that by going into Iraq the US created the current situation.
ReplyDeleteWhat good does it do to criticize the Iraqis that we can't control? The only good that can come from this is to acknowledge our mistaken foreign policy, and learn from it. And have a debate about how to proceed from here.
(and get the assholes who foolishly supported it out of Congress, *cough* Republicans *cough*)
Considering the killing is what you object to, it would behoove you to criticize those instigating the killing rather than those trying to contain it.
ReplyDeleteOr are you actually more in favor of bashing the US than actual aggressors?
Here is the crux of the issue. shooter thinks that what we type here is going to make a difference in how the war goes.
I am an American. I am mainly interested in what goes on in America, and in American foreign policy. No one in the world cares what I think about terrorists or 'insurgents'. On the other hand, it does matter what I think about American foregin policy.
It is natural and right that Americans should be primarily concerned with America. I don't want my country killing people for profit, and I don't want the war dragged on and escalated for political reasons.
That is to say, shooter, it may seem like people here focus on the negatives of American policy more than the negatives of other violent actors, but that is because, as citizens, our opinions only influence the former, not the latter. Iraqis don't care if Americans condemn their actions.
ReplyDeleteProbably in Iraq there is some guy saying, "You are always dumping on your fellow Iraqis, but it is the Americans who are the real problem! Why don't you ever criticize them? You are a closet America-lover! You are objectively pro-Bush!"
Shooter... It will be interesting to see how those "invested in failure" respond.
ReplyDeleteNot much of an investor, are you? It's you that keeps investing in failure. The rest of us tend to cut our losses and not throw good lives and treasure down the toilet. Iraq is like boat ownership. Ever own your own boat? At least a house is on land. You can keep that after the house burns down.
Excellent post, as usual, Mr. Greenwald. I also appreciate Angry Little Tank's comment about how Gov. Dean was ridiculed for saying this war wouldn't make us safer:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/24283230
This lack of empathy for the Iraqis is very distressing. For the life of me, I don't understand why most college students, religious people, and plain old middle-class Americans are not out in the streets protesting this horrid, horrid war.
Criticizing a boneheaded foreign policy and military policy is not 'bashing the US'. Only simple minds who see the US as a four year old sees their mommy would equate the two.
ReplyDeleteSure it is, and rightly so. As the European press put it after the 2004 election, "Can some 50 odd million Americans be that dumb?"
Don't blame just blame the architects of this fiasco. The morons who put them back in office were amply warned. everyone gets a bite of this giant shit sandwich. Even those of us who apparently didn't do enough to prevent this holocaust.
Jon Stewart hammered CNN for the second day straight last night about their boastful graphic of all the correspondents covering Israel/Lebanon. Sez Jon, they have exactly how many covering the increasingly dire situation in Iraq? None? Why? Oh, yeah, things in Iraq are just too damn dangerous.....
ReplyDeleteJon's on easy street; even a blind comedian can hit multiple targets if handed a loaded AK-47.
Cheers,
I'm an American. I'm not that proud of that fact these days, and no one in their right mind should be. Anyone who thinks this country isn't deserving of a good collective bashing at this point, deserves an especially good bashing themselves. Perhaps a good bashing is how we learn to prevent these nightmares.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @ 9:57,
ReplyDeleteIt's already over. Billmon was correct. He had given Israel 30 years. It's a failed state. This will speed up the process. For myself, I think this entire confrontation was cooked up by the neocons. It shifts focus from Iraq and the hope was to galvanize the public. Another terrorist attack wouldn't make the Bush admin. look good. I think it will fail miserably if they thought this would keep them in power in 2006 and 2008, and by "fail miserably" I mean so as to make the long list of all their other failures look mild by comparison.
We are on the edge of a frightening precipice. Even with the disaster in Afganistan and the disaster in Iraq the neocons want to take us further into the rapturous horror they call "spreading democracy". If the democrats fail to regain the House & Senate in November I'm afraid our once great country will fall over the edge.
ReplyDeleteTo Bart:
ReplyDelete[Please excuse where I use all caps; I only do it to make it a little easier to read]
Last night I claimed Congress had authority to make laws regarding wire-taps because of the commerce clause. You challenged me to provide citations. Here you go:
First, Congress passed the Federal Communications Act
for the purpose of regulating interstate and foreign commerce in communication by wire and . . . for the purpose of national defense, for the purpose of promoting safety of life and property through the use of wire and radio communication . . .. 47 USC 151.
Please note the that the Congressional intent includes both interstate and foreign communications and this is based on COMMERCE authority. Please also note that Congressional intent included NATIONAL DEFENSE. So, Congress is asserting its Constitutional authority to legislate in areas of national defense, something perhaps today the Sun King would find hampering.
Second, In this same act
§ 605. Unauthorized publication or use of communications
(a) Practices prohibited. Except as authorized by chapter 119, title 18, United States Code [18 USCS §§ 2510 et seq.][THIS IS THE FEDERAL CRIME CONTROL ACT. AS WE ALL KNOW, TO GET A WIRETAP YOU NEED WARRANT UNDER THIS ACT AND FISA], no person receiving, assisting in receiving, transmitting, or assisting in transmitting, any interstate or foreign communication by wire or radio shall divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning thereof, except through authorized channels of transmission or reception, (1) to any person other than the addressee, his agent, or attorney, (2) to a person employed or authorized to forward such communication to its destination, (3) to proper accounting or distributing officers of the various communicating centers over which the communication may be passed, (4) to the master of a ship under whom he is serving, (5) in response to a subpena issued by a court of competent jurisdiction, or (6) on demand of other lawful authority. . . .
Thirdly, please also note
§ 606. War powers of President (it is a long section so I will not quote it here.)
This section does not contain any EXPLICIT authorization for the President to carry on with illegal wire-taps. And, in attempt to cut off a predictable rebuttal – PLEASE NOTE THAT BUSH SOUGHT WIRE TAPPING POWERS BEFORE 9/11 AND BEFORE THE AUMF.
So, in total, we have Congress passing a comprehensive Act dealing with INTERSTATE and FOREIGN communication based on its COMMERCE and NATIONAL SECURITY authority. This Act make wire-taps with out warrants EXPLICITLY ILLEGAL and does not give the president EXPLICIT power to conduct ILLEGAL WIRETAPS.
Now, last night I claimed I could find Supreme Court citations which uphold the constitutionality of Congress’ authority to act. Well, I searched and there isn’t any because the Supreme Court has never considered the constitutionality of the FCA. It may be true that lower courts have – in fact I’m sure of it. But the constitutionality of Congress to pass such a law as the FCA has never been seriously challenged. All SC cases dealing with the FCA assume its Constitutionality. In fact, if one thinks about it, it is almost ludicrous to think Congress shouldn’t have such power. But there you go.
was Dean REGARDED as a lunatic, or was he CALLED a lunatic?
ReplyDeleteAt the time? Both, actually. He was also pilloried for having the temerity to suggest that the United States should be an honest broker with Israel and Palestine. Well, congratulations Joe Lieberman, you got your wish--we aren't an honest broker in the Middle East anymore, and look how much it's helped us.
Great post, as usual. I have one tiny quibble, though. For the PNACers, Iran is not the "new arch enmy", but was always the main target. The battle in Iraq was supposed to set up a staging ground for the real war against Iran (and Syria).
ReplyDeleteThis underscores just how wrong headed the neocons were (and still are) on everything. Instead of meekly submitting to the US military, Iran is now in the catbird seat.
Is there even a single theoretical benefit to American security that we derived from our invasion and occupation of that country in exchange for the immeasurable damage we created and are enduring?
ReplyDelete1) Regime change from a dictatorship which murdered over a million people in invasions of its neighbors and internal purges to an elected government with no designs on its neighbors.
2) Eliminated all WMD and WMD programs.
3) Engaged and decimated the units of al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan and fled to Iraq. You haven't heard much from al Qaeda since we got Zarqawi and rolled up his organization. Far from being a breeding ground for international terror, Iraq is where al Qaeda made its final stand. alienated much of the muslim world by its mass murder of civilians, and then died.
The internal sectarian violence which is causing you so much dismay is almost all centered in Baghdad. The vast majority of the country is peaceful.
This violence poses no threat to us outside of Iraq and very little inside of Iraq. Our military casualties have been plunging since last fall.
The nonsense about partitioning Iraq is being spread around by the Sunni minority in order to keep us in the country because the Shia are beginning to take revenge for three years of Sunni attacks and vastly outnumbered Sunni are terrified.
The internal violence is something the Iraqis will have to solve. Their military is rapidly approaching full strength and we have already started to pull out.
Welcome to self government.
There's a certain point at which the US is going to have to impose its will here. Assuming for the moment that maintaining the flow of oil from Iraq is the primary US objective in Iraq, the descent into chaos can only curtail that flow. The US does not want Iran to take control of it, so the US will have to ensure in some way that they get their hands on the controls.
ReplyDeleteThe US has large bases in Iraq. It could retreat behind the gates and fences of those bases and sit stay in the area like crusaders of old inhabiting their massive crusader castles. That would be a financial drain on the US bringing in little in return.
I can only see the US "reconquering" Iraq and imposing its own government on the area. In true imperial style, this protectorate would have some form of governor--perhaps elected--who'd take his order firectly from Washington.
Don't look now, Shooter. You've just been thrown under the train. Care to venture a guess as to which Senator is a "filthy traitor" and stabbed Bush in the back, albeit anonymously.
ReplyDeleteThe candidate, immersed in one of the most competitive Senate races in the country, sat down to lunch yesterday with reporters at a Capitol Hill steakhouse and shared his views about this year's political currents.
On the Iraq war: "It didn't work. . . . We didn't prepare for the peace."
A GOP Senate candidate expressed dissent, loudly if anonymously, with the White House, pointing to President Bush's post-Sept. 11 pose with a firefighter and his post-Katrina flyovers as signs of a "disconnect.".
On the response to Hurricane Katrina: "A monumental failure of government."
On the national mood: "There's a palpable frustration right now in the country."
It's all fairly standard Democratic boilerplate -- except the candidate is a Republican . And he's getting all kinds of cooperation from the White House, the Republican National Committee and GOP congressional leaders.
Not that he necessarily wants it. "Well, you know, I don't know," the candidate said when asked if he wanted President Bush to campaign for him. Noting Bush's low standing in his home state, he finally added: "To be honest with you, probably not."
The candidate gave the luncheon briefing to nine reporters from newspapers, magazines and networks under the condition that he be identified only as a GOP Senate candidate. When he was pressed to go on the record, his campaign toyed with the idea but got cold feet. He was anxious enough to air his gripes but cautious enough to avoid a public brawl with the White House.
Still, his willingness to speak so critically, if anonymously, about the party he will represent on Election Day points to a growing sense among Republicans that if they are to retain their majorities in Congress, they may have to throw the president under the train in all but the safest, reddest states.
(...)
"Republicans aren't very happy people right now," he argued. "The base is kind of ticked off."
He spoke of his party affiliation as though it were a congenital defect rather than a choice. "It's an impediment. It's a hurdle I have to overcome," he said. "I've got an 'R' here, a scarlet letter."
That left the candidate in a difficult spot. "For me to pretend I'm not a Republican would be a lie," he reasoned. But to run as a proud Republican? "That's going to be tough, it's going to be tough to do," he said. "If this race is about Republicans and Democrats, I lose."
Bart... Welcome to self government.
ReplyDeleteHow long do you think you would last checking your familiy's vehicles for bombs everyday, Bucko?
Whole lotta fun, huh?
Wow, bart, that summary of the Iraq invasion was worthy of Harry Turtledove.
ReplyDeleteBart, you better hope that kind of self-government doesn't spread. You won't last a week.
ReplyDeleteBart... 1) Regime change from a dictatorship which murdered over a million people in invasions of its neighbors and internal purges to an elected government with no designs on its neighbors.
Murder is a pretty strong term to apply to the war with Iran that the peanut farmer you love to hate encouraged Iraq to undertake. Frankly, your number is a little high, as usual. And most of those were casualties of war.
2) Eliminated all WMD and WMD programs.
Sanctions did that.
3) Engaged and decimated the units of al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan and fled to Iraq. You haven't heard much from al Qaeda since we got Zarqawi and rolled up his organization. Far from being a breeding ground for international terror, Iraq is where al Qaeda made its final stand. alienated much of the muslim world by its mass murder of civilians, and then died.
Obviously not have as effectively as Saddam would have. You know what, Bart? I think after you lose your license to practice law, rodeo clowning is the job for you.
Freedom Fan said...
ReplyDeleteFor the past 10 years, I was a litigator in NYC specializing in First Amendment challenges, civil rights cases, and corporate and securities fraud matters.
-Glenn Greenwald
Impressive. A defender of the first amendment who deletes comments linking to sock puppets. I also like the irony of the fraud thang. You guys are typical liberal hypocrites.
And you are probably the Star Wars kid. Get a life, you moron. LOTR!!!
ReplyDelete3) Engaged and decimated the units of al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan and fled to Iraq. You haven't heard much from al Qaeda since we got Zarqawi and rolled up his organization. Far from being a breeding ground for international terror, Iraq is where al Qaeda made its final stand. alienated much of the muslim world by its mass murder of civilians, and then died.
Zarqawi amd Bin laden were not in allegiance any more than the original Nation of Islam is allegiance with the current Nation of Islam. Just because Zarqawi put “qaeda” in his organization’s name does not mean they were operational or even financially connected. Anyway, wasn’t Zarqawi Shia? Maybe he was Sunni.
Freedom Fries shit for brains blog:(Don't visit him. Comments are open and often unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of little green colloquium. Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by little green colloquium.
ReplyDeleteDoes that answer your question? Did you even have a question?
From prunes at 11:58am:
ReplyDeleteWow, bart, that summary of the Iraq invasion was worthy of Harry Turtledove.
Actually, I think Dr. Turtledove would've fought the war a heckuva lot better than Rumsfield has.
But then, at least he understands the difference between fact and fiction.
Iraqi Speaker, Defended By White House, Claims America Invaded Iraq ‘With A Pure Zionist Agenda’
ReplyDeleteWhen things start to unravel, they tend to go very fast.
Update to Billmon's post: War by Tantrum
Update 10:30 AM ET: From Ha'aretz:
Bush and the public assumed that the army knew what it was doing, and that Israel, with its superiority in manpower, weaponry and technology, would be able to put an end to Hezbollah as a menace to Israel. Little by little, however, a worrying picture has begun to emerge: Instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich and dumb.
The "single American benefit" is the successful achievement of two of the PNAC's stated goals -- destabilization of the Middle East, and establishing a long-term presence in that newly destabilized region.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is doing our bidding as well, further destabilizing for us without using more US troops as cannon ...errr, aaaahhh... rocket/missile fodder.
Of course what is good for the PNAC's members is not what is good for America as a whole, nor what is good for the vast majority of individual Americans, but what makes you think that the PNAC goons care about anyone but themselves, or that they would act in the best interests of the nation as a whole, rather than out of self-interest?
Hooray for the PNAC. They achieve what they set out to do, even against huge odds, even if it means using unethical, amoral and illegal tactics -- and sadly, that makes them truly American.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart... Welcome to self government.
How long do you think you would last checking your familiy's vehicles for bombs everyday, Bucko?
Ask Ireland, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany and Isreal.
Bombing campaigns have never changed a government.
prunes said...
ReplyDeleteWow, bart, that summary of the Iraq invasion was worthy of Harry Turtledove.
Feel free to rebut my facts with other facts.
From Bart at 11:39am:
ReplyDeleteThe internal sectarian violence which is causing you so much dismay is almost all centered in Baghdad. The vast majority of the country is peaceful.
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=38870
And that was just three days ago: bombings in Baghdad, ongoing violence in Samarra, Mosul and Baqouba, plus more incidents throughout the country.
Bart, we aren't talking about high-intensity combat here, but ongoing, low-intensity violence that kills maybe a dozen at most on a daily basis. Saying "the vast majority of the country is peaceful" is like saying "the Atlantic Ocean is wet" or "a graveyard is quiet and peaceful". You're technically accurate, but missing the more fundamental point.
You should also reconsider that this violence doesn't represent a threat to Iraq's neighbors. What happens if some more enterprising and ambitious jihadists, for whatever reason, decide to export their violence into Iran, or Syria, or even Turkey? We've provided Al Qaeda a marvelous training ground there, within fairly easy reach of a key NATO member, as well the Gulf States we so desperately depend upon.
I personally don't know how serious this talk of partitioning the country is, but if it happens and if the Kurds actually get their own state, expect their cousins in Turkey, Syria, and Iran to want to join them (and I don't mean by immigration). Anyone want to lay odds how that'll go down with Damascus, Tehran, and Ankara?
Really Bart. You need to think about the issues a bit more deeply. But I suppose that would require actual effort, wouldn't it?
From Bart at 12:27pm:
ReplyDeleteBombing campaigns have never changed a government.
Weren't you among those screaming about how the Madrid bombings 'changed' the outcome of the elections that year?
I can't resist.
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 12:29pm:
Feel free to rebut my facts with other facts.
When you write a comment that doesn't substitute misrepresentations, irrelevancies, and wishful thinking for "facts", then we can talk.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart... 1) Regime change from a dictatorship which murdered over a million people in invasions of its neighbors and internal purges to an elected government with no designs on its neighbors.
Murder is a pretty strong term to apply to the war with Iran that the peanut farmer you love to hate encouraged Iraq to undertake. Frankly, your number is a little high, as usual. And most of those were casualties of war.
Iraqi invaded Iran and Kuwait in illegal wars to seize their oil. Murder is a perfect term for a massive war crime. The Nazis were tried for the same thing.
2) Eliminated all WMD and WMD programs.
Sanctions did that.
The Duelfer and Kay reports and the captured Iraqi documents are filled with examples of ongoing WMD programs which the UN missed.
The UN missed at least 500 sarin and mustard gas shells which we have found.
The UN cannot account for any of the WMD which Saddam told them he destroyed, statements his WMD chief is recorded saying in 1995 were lies.
3) Engaged and decimated the units of al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan and fled to Iraq. You haven't heard much from al Qaeda since we got Zarqawi and rolled up his organization. Far from being a breeding ground for international terror, Iraq is where al Qaeda made its final stand. alienated much of the muslim world by its mass murder of civilians, and then died.
Obviously not have as effectively as Saddam would have.
Iraqi documents confirm intelligence reports that Zarqawi was operating openly in Iraq in 2002 and our SF overran a camp with 1500 al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan.
Saddam had been inviting in Jihadi since 1993.
Mmm...I don't suppose it will convince anyone to belabor the obvious, but the reason for the reduction in U.S. casualties in Iraq is that our troops don't venture outside their fortresses as often as they did last year.
ReplyDeleteIf our grand right wing military information officers would read more generals, and fewer Republican talking points, they'd know that an immobilized army is a defeated army. Need I also mention -- as Bilmon has -- our vulnerable logistics train? GWB has served up 140K men and all their equipment on a plate to the Iranians, should they decide to make an issue of our presence in Iraq.
Still, I'm old enough to remember Vietnam. We left virtually every piece of equipment we had in country, skittered out at the end clinging to helicopter ladders, and yet, thirty-one years later, jackasses in VFW hats continue insisting that we "won every single military engagement we fought" in Vietnam. Tell it to Pyrrhus, guys.
And I have absolutely no doubt that thirty-one years from now, these same guys will be telling us the same falsehoods about Iraq -- if they aren't otherwise engaged, of course. It's hard to be an effective military groupie/blowhard when you've been reduced to subsistence farming in the arctic circle.
From Bart at 12:38pm:
ReplyDeleteIraqi documents confirm intelligence reports that Zarqawi was operating openly in Iraq in 2002 and our SF overran a camp with 1500 al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan.
You really can't help yourself, can you?
Those "documents" are still a subject of contention, their content of questionable veracity, and their translation of low priority. Even those 'translations' that have been made public are coming from questionable sources.
And would you please get it through your head Al Zaraqawi wasn't a formal part of Al Qaeda in 2003, merely a wannabe fellow traveller and a target of Hussein.
Ned Lamont, the supposed Progressive and the darling of the "liberal bloggers," wants Israel to keep bombing and killng civilians in Lebanon. He said on NPR yesterday that he only wants a ceasefire after Hezbollah has been eliminated.
ReplyDeleteI hope Joe Lieberman (whom I despise even more but at least he's honest about being an Israeli shill) beats the crap out of him.
Bart, Shooter, other W lapdogs
ReplyDeleteUnless you're willing to report to all here from Baghdad, OUTSIDE the Green Zone, lightly armed and with no security detail, just like the Iraqis have to live, your words are nothing but the most hollow rhetoric, devoid of all logic and reality
Those willfully ignorant W lackeys who try to spin unpleasant realities more to their liking regarding the absolute horror show that Iraq has become since the US occupation are clearly radicals in dire need of super-intensive psychiatric treatments and medications
Where were you W sheeple when Saddam Hussein was, with the express knowledge of every President since Johnson-all the way up to the Kuwait Invasion-carrying out vile human rights oppressions and various crimes against humanity?
Oh, that's right, until every other stated cause for the Iraq invasion and occupation turned out to be flat out lies that blew up in W's face, there was NO mention of Iraq's abysmal human rights record as any sort of invasion/occupation justification
Of course, with W and those still backing him, human rights are never any kind of concern other than for immediate political gain
The lives of people in other countries mean absolutely nothing to W and his rapidly dwindling number of starry eyed true believers, those lives are only a means to reward W's campaign contributors and corrupt cronies with massive amounts of US taxpayer dollars via no bid, no oversight contracts
And remember why the US backed Iraq in it's war with Iran, besides the obvious reason of payback for Iran's seizure of the US Embassy personnel as hostages?
The logic there was to stop the spread of Islamic extremism from spreading through the wider middle east after the Shah's exile and Khomeini's return
Now, thanks COMPLETELY to the most disastrous and idiotic US foreign policy decision ever, Iraq seeks deeper ties to the same group of Clerical Extremists running Iran since Khomeini's death
So please, use logic to show how such an outcome is advantageous to the US in either the short or long term
Thankfully, both the President and his policies are now meeting with the large-scale public disapproval they both so richly deserve, and that reality obviously grates on the W backers both on and offline
The point must be stressed again and again, these lunatics encouraging more war-in spite of having no realistic military way to wage it-do NOT represent the US political or social mainstream in the least, they represent a minority that grows smaller by the day
Digby had it exactly right, this radical President, this party that panders to a tiny minority of US Taliban wannabe religious thugs, and their freedom-hating, terrorist-loving backers must be removed from power-through the ballot box-and never again have the chance to work their evil for their own enrichment
That political payback starts in November, but only if most of the Dems grow a spine and start aggressively attacking this already beleaguered and weakened President, much the same way the GOP is distancing itself from W in an attempt to hold both the House and the Senate
OTOH
While W's clearly illegal Power Grabs must be rolled back for the Constitution to have any meaning, part of me would love to see a President despised by the W lackeys decide to use the same unclaimed, unConstitutional and unchecked "Unitary Executive" powers used against the W backers
But, as personally satisfying as that would be, the Constitution must take precedence over any Schadenfreude in that respect
And keeping these radicals a political minority, through free and fair elections, will be the best payback possible
Is there even a single theoretical benefit to American security that we derived from our invasion and occupation of that country in exchange for the immeasurable damage we created and are enduring?
ReplyDeleteLet's look at this from President Cheney's perspective.
The threat from terrorism hoever much exacerbated by kicking over the hornet's nest in Iraq is at best a second-order national security threat.
On the other hand, having the government at home fall into the hands of the Democrats is a firs-order national security threat.
That the Cheney administration considers the return to power of the Democrats a first-order national security threat is no exaggeration.
This is the platform he and his party ran on in the last two elections, this is what they tell, and told us, this is what posters on this thread maintain.
Since the Iraq war in posse or in esse delivered the 2002 midterms, the 2004 elections, bids fair to deliver the 2006 midterms, and if properly exploited -- "Who Lost Iraq" -- can be counted upon to deliver the 2008 elections, it can be fairly considered -- if you're President Cheney -- to have delivered an inestimable benefit to the American people, by neutering the Democratic party for a political generation.
bart said:
ReplyDelete"The Duelfer and Kay reports and the captured Iraqi documents are filled with examples of ongoing WMD programs which the UN missed."
I tried searching the Duelfer report (I didn't try the Kay report). I can't seem to find the examples. Can someone help me with this?
Well, it's not technically a security benefit, but U.S. petrodollar supremacy was consolidated again when Saddam was toppled.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's all the powers-that-be really care about...
I just want to point out that if someone designated a head of state has to ask permission about enforcing its own laws, then there really isn't a whole lot of sovereignity going on.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there are still those bases designed to house 40-50K of troops. Is there a use of force agreement with the Iraqi government?
Peter Galbraith points out in today's NYT that Kurdistan is already effectively autonomous and stable. I can't imagine that there aren't some people in Iraq who haven't noticed that separation breeds peace.
Galbraith has been proposing a three way division for at least two years, as the best case scenario. In today's article, he proposes basing US forces in Kurdistan, as protection against terrorist organizers. That's not a bad idea-essentially a wrinkle on the Murtha plan. Diplomacy with Turkey would be necessary, and, of course, there would be an explosion of sectarian violence to the south.
But without the distracting presence of the US, regional governments might be achievable. Of course, this could have been two years ago.
And, to my mind, the way to resolve the division of oil revenues is to allocate a large fraction to distribute to individual Iraqis.
Bartbarian will refuse to "get...into his head" any information which is counter to the myths he believes.
ReplyDeleteHe refuses to face the facts: we have made a ruin of things in Iraq; are responsible for thousands of needless and innocent deaths and for the degradation and torture of hundreds (or thousands) of innocent Iraqis; and have violated international law by prosecuting an illegal war of aggression against a country which never threatened us, the justifications for which were deceptions and lies.
Li'l Butch and Big DICK have shamed America and besmirched us with their villainy.
jules: Ned Lamont, the supposed Progressive and the darling of the "liberal bloggers," wants Israel to keep bombing and killng civilians in Lebanon. He said on NPR yesterday that he only wants a ceasefire after Hezbollah has been eliminated.
ReplyDeleteThe Democratic party's silence on this issue is truly deafening and shows how well the Israel Lobby keeps its dogs under control. Only Dennis Kucinich has the stones to call the Israeli invasion on its immorality. I have a rundown on the Dems' reticence on this issue here.
freedom fan said:
ReplyDeleteGee my comments were deleted yet again. Maybe I need to find a lawyer who specializes in defending the first amendment.
ROFLMFAO!
Maybe you need to stop being a jacka$$. Or go to sites that appreciate your "sense of humour" a little bit better. Don't let the door hit you on your way out, 'kay?
Cheers,
Jay Ackroyd at 1:13 pm says:
ReplyDelete"Peter Galbraith points out in today's NYT that Kurdistan is already effectively autonomous and stable. I can't imagine that there aren't some people in Iraq who haven't noticed that separation breeds peace."
For a really interesting look at how separation breeds peace, see http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/
2006/06/1833899, Blood Borders by Ralph Peters in the Armed Forces Journal....talk about a new world--whoa! If only it could be made true (without a huge amount of bloodshed, that is). (And sorry if this article has already been linked to from Glenn's site, but I can't remember what blog I was reading when I linked to it!)
freedom fan said:
ReplyDeleteGee my comments were deleted yet again. Maybe I need to find a lawyer who specializes in defending the first amendment.
I told you he wasn't as smart as an old 386. You have no first amendment rights here, Sparky. This isn't the government. This is your beloved "private sector". Cool, huh?
Jay Ackroyd at 1:13 pm says:
ReplyDelete"Peter Galbraith points out in today's NYT that Kurdistan is already effectively autonomous and stable. I can't imagine that there aren't some people in Iraq who haven't noticed that separation breeds peace."
Peace? Is that what you call it? Is that why the Turks are making noises about invading and annexing northern Iraq? "Peace" was leaving things alone. That's as much peace, such as it was, as you'll ever see in that region for the next century. Really. Lay off the Kool-aid. Saddam was a bastard, but he was our bastard.
I tried searching the Duelfer report (I didn't try the Kay report). I can't seem to find the examples. Can someone help me with this?
ReplyDeleteYou need to get your hands on the wingnut editions. They come in a nice tin foil wrapper.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteStick to being a rodeo clown. It's the best job you'll get.
Bart... Feel free to rebut my facts with other facts.
ReplyDeleteYour false assertions have been rebutted by facts so many times this is getting boring. I hope Glenn just deletes his posts. He is just a polite and well mannered nuisance, like a pick-pocket.
Freedom Fan said...
ReplyDeleteWitness the clever liberal minds in action.
Maybe you'll learn something. No one cares what you say, least of all Glenn. You say it at your blog. He doesn't care. None of us do. You just are being "instructed" that you can't say it here on Glenn's dime. It makes you screech like a baby chickenhawk. We do enjoy that.
Freedom Fan.
ReplyDeleteWhat about go annoying someone who gives a damnn about your stupid and fact-free comments?
Arne please donme a favor and leave him be the ***hole he is without wasting your time with him: you have already proved more than once that you can spend it much better with some of the best comments in this great blog .
As someone (you?) said in an other tread talking about Bart: don't feed the trolls...
Do you believe them when they tell you there is peace in Kurdistan?
ReplyDeleteTurkey Signals It's Prepared to Enter Iraq
Turkish officials signaled Tuesday they are prepared to send the army into northern Iraq if U.S. and Iraqi forces do not take steps to combat Turkish Kurdish guerrillas there - a move that could put Turkey on a collision course with the United States.
Turkey is facing increasing domestic pressure to act after 15 soldiers, police and guards were killed fighting the guerrillas in southeastern Turkey in the past week.
"The government is really in a bind," said Seyfi Tashan, director of the Foreign Policy Institute at Bilkent University in Ankara. "On the one hand, they don't want things to break down with the United States. On the other hand, the public is crying for action."
There is just peace breaking out all over! We just have to pull together until "this peace craze to blow over."
"baghdad" bart said:
ReplyDeleteThe Duelfer and Kay reports and the captured Iraqi documents are filled with examples of ongoing WMD programs which the UN missed.
Doesn't matter. We were not taken to war over WMD "programs"
but those nasty (but elusive) WMD's themselves. You know, the kind that cause nuke-u-lur clouds and such. It was only after WMD's were not found that the Bushies tried to bamboozle us by attaching the word "programs".
The UN missed at least 500 sarin and mustard gas shells which we have found.
Yep. And so old, and degraded as to be completely useless. Hardly the "mushroom cloud" Condi warned (and frightened) us about.
anon @ 2:15pm: Turkey is facing increasing domestic pressure to act after 15 soldiers, police and guards were killed fighting the guerrillas in southeastern Turkey in the past week.
ReplyDeleteWell, according to Bush's logic Turkey should invade--with disporportionate force, just as Israel is justified in doing in Labanon, right? That is, if these attackers crossed the border Iraq-Turkey border, Bush should be out there cheerleading for an invasion by Turkey.... Oh wait, that might not be in "our" interests. Never mind.
Hey folks, you know what I noticed in traffic last weekend? I didn't see even ONE "W" or related type of bumper sticker. Last year those damned things were ubiquitous here in Colorado, but no longer. Its anectodal I know, but it sure made my day. Considering the long list of messes and illegal activity by this maladministration, which are so well documented here and elsewhere, I have to have a bit of hope that there is an awareness dawning in this country.
ReplyDeleteeuphronius said...
ReplyDelete3) Engaged and decimated the units of al Qaeda which escaped from Afghanistan and fled to Iraq. You haven't heard much from al Qaeda since we got Zarqawi and rolled up his organization. Far from being a breeding ground for international terror, Iraq is where al Qaeda made its final stand. alienated much of the muslim world by its mass murder of civilians, and then died.
Zarqawi amd Bin laden were not in allegiance any more than the original Nation of Islam is allegiance with the current Nation of Islam.
To start, al Qaeda is a loose affiliation of dozens of smaller Islamic fascist terror groups. Zarqawi ran one of those affiliated terror groups in Iraq and its membership swelled with Afghan al Qaeda after we cleaned out that pest hole. Read Masters of Chaos by Linda Robinson.
After we intervened in Iraq and routed his training base, Zarqawi received a constant flow of suicide bombers from al Qaeda in the Gulf States routed through Syria.
Anyway, wasn’t Zarqawi Shia? Maybe he was Sunni.
Zarqawi and al Qaeda are Sunni. They consider the Shia to be apostates.
Zarqawi massacred hundreds of Shia in Iraq attempting to start a civil war.
Shooter says:
ReplyDeleteVery true, so why not criticize them [lawless militias and death squads] for a change. These sects are
free now to do what they will, and have decided to kill each other.
Considering the killing is what you object to, it would behoove you to criticize those instigating the killing
rather than those trying to contain it.
Or are you actually more in favor of bashing the US than actual aggressors?
1. Everyone who knew anything about Iraq knew this would happen. Play this game
(http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml) written before the war started and you'll see how "prescient"
it was.
2. Will the death squads change their behavior as a result of our criticism? No. Will they stop killing each
other because we are there? No. What is done, is done. For good or ill, the US invaded Iraq. All we can do
now is decide to stay or leave.
3. Yes, I will bash the idiot who keeps chanting "stay the course, it is hard work, we're making progress, don't
cut and run" even though our presence does nothing positive. It is costing money and US troops' lives. Since I
have no say about the aggressors, I will try to influence the policy of my own government.
We have two choices, as I see it. We can admit we're not doing any good, and leave. Or we can raise *a lot* of
money, pay troops a bunch more what they get now (enough to enlist 2 million more combat troops and the required
number of associated support troops), and inundate Iraq with US forces while we really and truly become an army
of occupation.
The status quo serves no purpose. I object to the killing of any innocent person. However, I have a greater
objection to throwing away the lives of our troops in a vain attempt to impose order with insufficient resources.
Here is an exercise for you. Find and document three examples of successful occupations. Consider the
occupational troop-to-civilian ratio necessary. Determine the types of methods used to pacify rebellious
elements. (hint: we'd need lots more troops - and we'd have to let them use methods that would make My Lai and
Abu Ghraib seem tame in comparison.)
I realize there is always controversy generated when supporters of the war end up acknowledging that it was a mistake, but between someone who acknowledges error and those who continue to insist in the face of undeniable reality that things are going well in Iraq and that our invasion was the right thing to do, I will take the former over the latter every time.
ReplyDeleteOn this one point I respectfully differ with Glenn. The former are the most dangerous. The latter will be increasingly discredited as the folly of their misguided allegiances and duplicitous motivations is borne out over time by the facts of reality. The former are like Hydras. They re-appear, with re-established credibility after their mea culpas to wreck new havoc which results from actions which are promoted by people with evil hearts.
We are not talking about innocent errors here like adding up a column of figures wrong. We are talking about decisions made which one knows will exact a huge price in human lives and human suffering. There should be very good reasons to undertake such projects where others will have to pay such huge costs for one's own "errors." Saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong" simply doesn't cut it. To "err" is human and some errors are of course forgiveable. Errors which discount the value of the lives of others are not.
The most powerful voices speaking out against the current foreign policy of the United States are the same ones who were against our entry into Iraq from the beginning. The facts which reality has now borne out were evident from the start. There were no "suprises" in this insane misadventure. Every single thing which has happened was predictable and anyone whose motives were pure and did their due diligence when deciding whether to invade Iraq would have known that.
I confine my respect for those who predicted that the plane would not fly because it had no wings before take-off. I don't have respect for someone who says "I saw the plane had no wings. But I assumed it would fly anyway. Sorry."
That would be okay if it were a model airplane which crashes. If there are hundreds of mangled bodies lying on the ground, it's less than persuasive.
Andrew Sullivan is a particularly cruel person. He will support a cruel policies in the future. It's the old scorpion fable: it's his very nature.
Hey, Bart! No snark here - I begrudgingly admit I've changed my opinion about you. While I uniformly disagree w/ your comments, your opinions are at least politely and logically expressed. I even occassionally find myself forced to think in order to rebut your viewpoint to my own (internal) satisfaction. You're a step above the "MINOR" and some of the other absolute nitwits who cruise through. I daresay I'm glad you've hung in.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 11:39am: The internal sectarian violence which is causing you so much dismay is almost all centered in Baghdad. The vast majority of the country is peaceful.
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=38870
And that was just three days ago: bombings in Baghdad, ongoing violence in Samarra, Mosul and Baqouba, plus more incidents throughout the country.
How does this conflict with what I stated? All those named locations are in the Bagdad area except for Mosul. The Shia south and the Kurd north are generally peaceful. Indeed, much of the Sunni triangle has much reduced violence.
The battle appears to be moving to Baghdad, where the Shia and Sunni intersect. That is why we are moving our troops from other parts of the country to Baghdad.
Bart, we aren't talking about high-intensity combat here, but ongoing, low-intensity violence that kills maybe a dozen at most on a daily basis.
I wish that number were true.
For the past couple months, the killing has shifted from the Coalition and Iraqi troops to the Baghdad civilians. The UN claims that 100 civilians are being murdered per day around Baghdad and Maliki endorsed that number.
Saying "the vast majority of the country is peaceful" is like saying "the Atlantic Ocean is wet" or "a graveyard is quiet and peaceful". You're technically accurate, but missing the more fundamental point.
OK, what is that point?
You should also reconsider that this violence doesn't represent a threat to Iraq's neighbors. What happens if some more enterprising and ambitious jihadists, for whatever reason, decide to export their violence into Iran, or Syria, or even Turkey?
These are local Iraqi Sunni and Shia militias engaged in tit for tat revenge massacres. What would they be avenging in Iran, Syria or Turkey?
We've provided Al Qaeda a marvelous training ground there, within fairly easy reach of a key NATO member, as well the Gulf States we so desperately depend upon.
What we have provide is a killing ground on which al Qaeda has been massacred. al Qaeda has a history of coming to us where ever we are. If it wasn't Iraq, it would have been Afghanistan. If not Afghanistan, then outside the Middle East and into the US. Better Iraq.
From Bart at 12:27pm: Bombing campaigns have never changed a government.
Weren't you among those screaming about how the Madrid bombings 'changed' the outcome of the elections that year?
The argument I was rebutting was that a democracy cannot survive a bombing campaign. Spain did not abandon its democracy because al Qeada murdered its citizens.
It's already over. Billmon was correct. He had given Israel 30 years. It's a failed state. This will speed up the process.
ReplyDeleteHmm. Well, okay. Israel doesn't look much like Afghanistan, though, and let's recall that Israel didn't collapse in 1982.
For myself, I think this entire confrontation was cooked up by the neocons. It shifts focus from Iraq and the hope was to galvanize the public.
The neocons got the bigger rockets into Hizb'allah's hands? The neocons run Israel?
Another terrorist attack wouldn't make the Bush admin. look good. I think it will fail miserably if they thought this would keep them in power in 2006 and 2008, and by "fail miserably" I mean so as to make the long list of all their other failures look mild by comparison.
There's no evidence that the necons are good conspirators. In fact, they are bad conspirators, if they are conspirators at all. Their tactic is to lie openly.
Rather, they are opportinists. Gaining cynical advantage from a war is not the same as creating the war.
bamage:
ReplyDeleteTo understand bart correctly, you need to read the Klingon original, or the abridged Newspeak version. The English translations don't capture the full flavor of his thinking.
He reasons toward pre-determined conclusions, and his thesis is continually adjusted to make the path from thesis to conclusion seem inevitable.
If you don't read Klingon or Newspeak, you might check back in the Unclaimed Territory archives to see what he was saying about why we invaded Iraq, and how we and the Iraqis would benefit from our invasion before recent events overtook his original thesis.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteprunes said...
Wow, bart, that summary of the Iraq invasion was worthy of Harry Turtledove.
Feel free to rebut my facts with other facts.
I have some facts for you. I have personal knowledge of the situation in Iraq. Yesterday, during my lunch break, I flew to Iraq and killed 3000 terrorists with my bare hands. The rest fled or surrendered. I got the Shiites and Sunnis together over a few beers, and Iraq is now safe as milk.
Tomorrow I plan to make a visit to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, out there in Baluchistan. I'll tell you all how it goes when I get back.
(Sorry, I forgot my camera and don't have any pictures. )
HWSNBN said:
ReplyDeleteThe argument I was rebutting was that a democracy cannot survive a bombing campaign. Spain did not abandon its democracy because al Qeada murdered its citizens.
.... wish that were true of the U.S. ;-)
Cheers,
If we're going to be mad with people who backed the war at all, we need to be clear on why. I can understand people who thought it was a great idea to get rid of Saddam -- as far as that goes, it was something that needed doing.
ReplyDeleteThe mistake war supporters made was thinking that liberation was on the agenda under a Cheney-Rumsfeld administration. Anybody who believed the freedom and democracy rhetoric for a second was incredibly naive, but that doesn't mean we need to beat them up for it forever. Many meant well, and we need to treat them even-handedly, lest they fall back to the dark side.
I realize there is always controversy generated when supporters of the war end up acknowledging that it was a mistake, but between someone who acknowledges error and those who continue to insist in the face of undeniable reality that things are going well in Iraq and that our invasion was the right thing to do, I will take the former over the latter every time.
ReplyDeleteAmen. I agree that hypocrisy should be called as such, but it is also in the interests of everyone that those who were "right all along" not make it harder for others to admit the truth. There will be times in the future, you know, when people who are wrong will weigh admitting they were wrong. We all want these choices to made sooner than later in any given situation.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: "The Duelfer and Kay reports and the captured Iraqi documents are filled with examples of ongoing WMD programs which the UN missed."
I tried searching the Duelfer report (I didn't try the Kay report). I can't seem to find the examples. Can someone help me with this?
Sure. HWSNBB is under the misimpression that others can see his hallucinations. HTH.
Cheers,
kimba1970:
ReplyDeleteArne please donme a favor and leave him be the ***hole he is without wasting your time with him...
'Kay. To quote Colbert, "he's dead to me". Unless there's an opportunity to torture him horribly that I just can't pass up ... you know, tear his wings off or sumptin'....
Cheers,