The scandal here is not just the illegal surveillance itself, but the fact that the Administration is so plainly lying about what they did and why. Short of smoking gun evidence that someone is lying, which almost never exists, the most compelling proof of dishonesty is when someone’s explanation for their behavior is internally inconsistent and incoherent. Complex lies are difficult to create, particularly when they are subject to rigorous scrutiny, and inconsistencies and incoherence are the hallmarks of such lies. When one finds those in an explanation for what someone did and why, it is almost always proof of the falsehood of the explanation.
The explanations given by the Administration with regard to their warrantless surveillance on Americans simply don’t make any sense. It’s not that they’re unpersuasive or unlikely. It’s that these statements are just plainly incoherent on the most basic logical levels. The Administration engaged in illegal conduct and now is lying about what they did and why, and multiple facts prove that:
(1) President Bush claimed yesterday in his Press Conference that the only American citizens whose communications were subject to warrantless eavesdropping by the Government were "people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."
But at the same time, there have been at least hundreds of people, if not more, who have had their communications invaded by this warrantless surveillance program, and the Administration claimed that one of the reasons why compliance with FISA was impractical was because they had so many people they wanted to eavesdrop on that FISA couldn’t accommodate all of the requests.
But those two claims, taken together, would mean that the Administration has known of the identity and location of hundreds of people, at least, inside the U.S. who have known ties to Al Qaeda but has not arrested them or detained them in any way – instead, they simply eavesdropped on their conversations under this surveillance program but otherwise left them roaming free.
This is an Administration which has incarcerated U.S. citizens in military prisons without charging them with a crime, or even allowing them access to a lawyer, based on suspected associations with Al Qaeda which were tenuous at best. Individuals who have even distant or theoretical and vague connections to Al Qaeda have been detained, arrested and prosecuted in large numbers.
The idea that the Federal Government has known of hundreds of American citizens, if not more, who have actual associations with Al Qaeda – and therefore have been subject to this warrantless surveillance – but not arrested or prosecuted, is just obviously false. Why would the Administration know the identity and location of hundreds of people within the U.S. who are affiliated with Al Qaeda or with Al Qaeda and not arrest them?
Doesn’t this fact, by itself, make conclusively clear that large numbers of innocent American citizens who have nothing to do with Al Qaeda have been subjected to this warrantless eavesdropping? Either that is true, or the Administration has known of the identity of hundreds of people with Al Qaeda connections inside the United States and simply allowed them to remain free. It is simply incredible on its face to claim that this many people inside the U.S. have been subjected to this surveillance while simultaneously claiming that all of them have ties to Al Qaeda.
(2) As many others have noted, the sole justification furnished by the Administration for why it needed to engage in surveillance outside of FISA – as the President put it yesterday in his Press Conference: "We've got to be fast on our feet, quick to detect and prevent" – is so false as to be laughable. FISA was intended, and is structured, to allow warrantless surveillance when the necessity for immediate eavesdropping requires it. Section 1805(f) expressly permits immediate surveillance without a warrant for up to 72 hours, and the law therefore cannot be said to even theoretically impede immediate surveillance. It expressly allows emergency surveillance.
This is really the heart of the matter in terms of whether there was any good faith at all motivating the Administration’s warrantless eavesdropping. Unless the Administration can identify some coherent reason why compliance with FISA would impede legitimate surveillance -- and no such reason has even arguably been provided -- it is as plain as can be that the Administration has not provided its real motive for eavesdropping outside of the authorization of this law.
(3) The Administration claims that its good faith is demonstrated by the fact that it briefed Congressional Democrats as to what it was doing, thereby obtaining their tacit support. Leaving aside the dispute over how much the Administration actually disclosed to them, the fact that these Congressional Democrats were barred by law from even discussing this program with their staffs, let alone publicly objecting to it or taking steps to stop it, renders this defense patently absurd.
Some of the Congressional leaders who were briefed, such as Sen. Rockefeller, did privately object to this program – both on the ground that it seemed lawless as well as on the ground that he was told too little about it to even know what was being done. But sending that secret, impotent, truly pitiful letter was all Sen. Rockefeller or any other Congressional Democrat could do, because they would have been acting illegally had they done anything else.
Indeed, some supporters of the President are now calling for the imprisonment and execution of any the member of Congress who was responsible for bringing this program to light. The President himself has made clear that he wants the responsible leaker aggressively prosecuted by the Justice Department, even if the leaker was one of the Congressional leaders who was briefed. Yesterday, in his Press Conference, he basically accused whoever finally spoke out about this program of committing treason:
There is a process that goes on inside the Justice Department about leaks, and I presume that process is moving forward. My personal opinion is it was a shameful act for someone to disclose this very important program in a time of war. The fact that we're discussing this program is helping the enemy. . . .
You've got to understand -- and I hope the American people understand -- there is still an enemy that would like to strike the United States of America, and they're very dangerous. And the discussion about how we try to find them will enable them to adjust. . . . But it is a shameful act by somebody who has got secrets of the United States government and feels like they need to disclose them publicly.
Thus, to hype the fact that Congressional Democrats remained silent even after they were briefed, as the Administration and its enablers are doing (THE PRESIDENT: "We have consulted with members of the Congress over a dozen times . . . There is oversight. We're talking to Congress all the time, and on this program, to suggest there's unchecked power is not listening to what I'm telling you" ), while simultaneously urging that anyone in Congress who failed to remain silent be criminally prosecuted, is so transparently dishonest that it defies belief. The Administration forced these Congressional Democrats to remain silent and are now using that forced silence as evidence of their approval of this program. That reasoning is appallingly corrupt.
(4) The Administration is claiming that it was given authority to engage in warrantless eavesdropping outside of FISA by the Congress when the Congress authorized force in Afghanistan. But as was astutely pointed out yesterday, Attorney General Gonzalez – in response to the obvious question as to why the Administration failed over the last 4 years to seek changes in FISA if it thought FISA was inadequate – replied that they tried to do that but then stopped when they realized that they couldn’t get the changes they wanted from Congress:
GONZALEZ: That question was asked earlier. We've had discussions with members of Congress, certain members of Congress, about whether or not we could get an amendment to FISA, and we were advised that that was not likely to be -- that was not something we could likely get, certainly not without jeopardizing the existence of the program, and therefore, killing the program. And that -- and so a decision was made that because we felt that the authorities were there, that we should continue moving forward with this program.
To assert with one breath that Congress gave authority to eavesdrop on American citizens outside of FISA, only to then acknowledge with the other breath that they tried to get Congress to give this authority but realized that Congress would not, is about as contradictory as it gets. Just as a matter of basic logic, shouldn’t Gonzalez’ admission that the Administration tried but failed to get approval from Congress for this warrantless surveillance preclude their claim that Congress approved it?
Explanations as incoherent and facially incredible as these are simply not what one hears from someone who is telling the truth. Whatever it was that motivated the Administration to eavesdrop outside of the extremely permissive FISA parameters, and whatever it is that they did when engaging in this surveillance, still remain to be discovered. The only thing that is clear at this point is that the Administration’s explanations tell us nothing about what really went on and why.
If this isn't the stuff of impeachment, what is?
ReplyDeleteBlow jobs only?
The only explanation for the Administration's behavior I've heard so far that makes any sense, short of some secret nefarious motivation that Glenn implies, is that there is a lot of arduous red tape to get through before you even reach the secret court under FISA. Thus, while the FISA court is generally permissive, it takes time to get there. And for this Administration, which is generally callous to the equality of the other two branches of gov't, it was easier to just go ahead with it without complying with FISA.
ReplyDeleteI do not offer the foregoing as an excuse for the Administration, for there is none. Rather, I'm looking for an explanation of its behavior.
is that there is a lot of arduous red tape to get through before you even reach the secret court under FISA.
ReplyDeleteBut this doesn't make any sense. It's rank nonsense. FISA courts approve warrants immediately as a matter of course. It's what they are designed to do. The court meets in the Justice Department always ex parte with the Government. And, Bush did not give this excuse when explaining why they couldn't stay within FISA (nor did Gonzalez).
Moreover, if they really thought that FISA had problems, they could have easily sought to fix it. They control both houses of Congress. And FISA already was amended in critical respects by the Patriot Act, so the intention obviously was for FISA to be the framework for signal intelligence against terrorists. If the Admininstration really wanted to wokr within FISA but thought there were structural problems:
(a) why aren't they saying that? and
(b) why didn't they simply change the law.
To say what you're saying is to posit that the Government should comply with the law except when they decide it's not a good law, in which case it's OK to violate it (rather than seek changes to it).
As for the "nefarious" snark, there is a long history of the Government abusing its surveillance powers, which is what led to FISA in the first place. There is also a story in this morning's Times reporting on the FBI's work against political opponents of the Administration who pose no threat to national security at all.
Anyone who thinks that it's some sort of stretch that the Government will abuse unchecked power like this is naive beyond belief.
>>>To say what you're saying is to posit that the Government should comply with the law except when they decide it's not a good law, in which case it's OK to violate it (rather than seek changes to it).
ReplyDeleteI'm not advocating what the gov't did. I thought I made that clear. I'm simply looking for an empirical explanation for why they behaved the way they did. Clearly, if there was a structural problem with FISA, they should have gone to Congress. Moreover, in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, the President would have been granted wide powers, if requested. This Administration's consolidation of executive power is disturbing.
The red tape explanation is something I heard from Eric Umansky, here: http://bloggingheads.tv/?id=43
Umansky claimed to have heard that from a national security expert. I don't recall if he gave a name. Perhaps there's some validity, or perhaps not.
>>>As for the "nefarious" snark, there is a long history of the Government abusing its surveillance powers
Didn't mean to be "snarky." I meant it literally. Glenn, you immediately assumed the worst motives. Perhaps you'll turn out to be right. Perhaps not. The red tape explanation is one alternative. Of course, the Administration invites the worst assumptions precisely because it was so secretive. And we have every right to assume the worst. But it's also possible that this unconstitutional exercise of power was used only for anti-terrorism purposes. But that's the Administration's burden to now prove.
An FBI agent wanted to get a FISA warrant related to info that might be found on Moussaui's computer before 9/11. Info to prevent 9/11 may well have been on that computer.
ReplyDeleteUltimately the FBI gave up on the FISA warrant because the paperwork and red tape was too arguous and time consuming.
There are many problems with getting FISA warrants timely. Many are outlined on NRO. One only needs to look in the statute itself at the 12 or 16 separate requirements for the paperwork that MUST be completed, sworn to, and approved by the DOJ OFIR BEFORE you can get the application for a warrant before the judge to realize what a bureaucratic cluster fuck the statute really is.
Further, the FISA statute is written by a bunch of paranoid chicken littles with constant Nixon flashbacks. It is designed to make it HARD not easy to wire tap any US person.
Its unworkable for the context that Bush is using it for. That's why Clinton went around it for commercial not national security purposes, and that's why Bush was forced to properly claim his legal and fully constitutional authority to take these actions.
As for Mr. Greenwald's piece of rather frantic prose. He could have just written the sky is falling the sky is falling several times.
The only "explanation" that makes sense is that they knew they weren't going to get a FISA warrant for the surveillances they wanted, and/or with the 'probable cause' they had. Which makes it all the more important to find out who it was they were spying on, and for what reason....
ReplyDeleteEither that, or.... Could it be that this maladministration thinks that they really can do anything they d*** well please? "L'etat c'est moi"? We know that's DeLay's take on it; have the rest of them been infested with the bug-killer's malady?
Cheers,
An FBI agent wanted to get a FISA warrant related to info that might be found on Moussaui's computer before 9/11. Info to prevent 9/11 may well have been on that computer.
ReplyDeleteUltimately the FBI gave up on the FISA warrant because the paperwork and red tape was too arguous and time consuming.
Ummm, nope. The field agents gave up on it because FBI middle management sat on the request and wouldn't push it (IIRC). Strangely enough, the middle manager who did this, in true Dubyaish form, was given a bonus for his sterling work at a time when federal pay raises were frozen due to budgetary problems. Had he screwed the pooch just a little more badly, maybe he would have garnered himself a Presidential Medal of Freedom....
Cheers,
There are many problems with getting FISA warrants timely. Many are outlined on NRO. One only needs to look in the statute itself at the 12 or 16 separate requirements for the paperwork that MUST be completed, sworn to, and approved by the DOJ OFIR BEFORE you can get the application for a warrant before the judge to realize what a bureaucratic cluster fuck the statute really is.
ReplyDeleteNonsense. FISA warrants are almost never refused (not to mention they get 72 hours free bite of the apple anyways, even without the warrant). The real reasons for not wanting to go the "legal" route have to be found elsewhere, particularly since this was a blanket EO, and not based on either exigencies nor on particular circumstances.
Cheers,
Arne, so they couldn't timely get the warrant right? You also failed to address the paperwork requirements and probable cause requirements contained in the FISA statute itself. Just look at what info has to be sworn to in advance in addition to the probable cause info.
ReplyDeleteTell me when we find an Al Qaeda computer with 100 phone numbers on it, some of which appear to be USA phone numbers, what probable cause to you put down? What's the name of the person that goes with each number? Remember FISA requires that part of the info is the name of the person and their precise location or locations? How do you get their location or locations in advance for a cell phone number? For a USA based terrorist how do you get their location or location when they keep using different IP addresses, computers at kinko's, libraries, different homes and apartments and how do you know all this in advance so you put it down on the FISA applicationf for a warrant?
Yeah FISA is a piece of cake to use. You know who says this crap. lefty criminal lawyers who think its just like some small town sheriff going over to uncle joe's the county judge for a criminal warrant. In other words the clueless who lead the rest of the clueless.
Given what you state about the Mousoui case and FISA warrants than you are also aware of how the 9/11 commission complained about how they worked, they were too slow and the process was too bureaucratic.
Fortunately President Bush had the solution, which was the use of his inherent constitutional authority to conduct these surveillances. As a last note most of these surveillances would not meet FISA requirements to have a warrant even required under FISA is my guess, because most of the people involved won't meet FISA's definition of a US Person and/or most of the intercepts are being done outside the territorial boundries of the USA.
Something is basically nonsensical when it is perfectly legal to intercept a conversation from a boat outside the 3 mile limit or 25 mile limit, but intercept the same conversation between the same people from the beach and the sky is falling the sky is falling the sky is falling.
Lets get real here people.
Gary
Gary:
ReplyDeleteArne, so they couldn't timely get the warrant right?
Pay attention! They get the first 72 hours free! (BTW, this is something I disagree with; I don't think that any 'first bite of the apple' should be free).
You also failed to address the paperwork requirements and probable cause requirements contained in the FISA statute itself.
No, I didn't. You really need to start reading for comprehension. As for the "probable cause" requirement, that's in there for a reason (hint for the slow-to-comprehend: it begins with "Consti..." and ends with "...tution").
Just look at what info has to be sworn to in advance in addition to the probable cause info.
Hate to say it, but FISA warrants have proved no problem in the past. People do the paperwork, and get the warrants.
Tell me when we find an Al Qaeda computer with 100 phone numbers on it, some of which appear to be USA phone numbers, what probable cause to you put down?
As I said, FISA warrants are almost never turned down. So you don't think you could get a warrant on this??? Or are you just "spinning" for the Dictator-In-Chief and his thugs, crooks and liars that infest the maladministration?
What's the name of the person that goes with each number?
Think that's a problem to find out??? Hell, I bet even someone as slow as you could do it (and that's just the easily accessible stuff; the gummint can do a lot more, including subpoenas for business records to find unlisted numbers, etc.). You're just trying to blow smoke here, for some strange reason.
Remember FISA requires that part of the info is the name of the person and their precise location or locations?
Oh, BS. Stop telling lies (or perhaps repeating lies you've been told to 'spin' by the RW 'Mighty Wurlitzer').
For a USA based terrorist how do you get their location or location when they keep using different IP addresses, ....
Ummm, actually, I may in fact know a bit about that. Probably a lot more than you.
... computers at kinko's, libraries, different homes and apartments and how do you know all this in advance so you put it down on the FISA applicationf for a warrant?
Little problem with your "problem" here: If they don't know this, they also don't know this for purposes of setting up the actual intercept as well....
Yeah FISA is a piece of cake to use. You know who says this crap. lefty criminal lawyers who think its just like some small town sheriff going over to uncle joe's the county judge for a criminal warrant. In other words the clueless who lead the rest of the clueless.
I suspect that you're the clueless one here. You know, the ad hominem attack really spices up your "argument" as well. Care to tell us of your familiarity with wiretaps? Have you ever had any conversations with, say, an FBI guy that actually works with wiretapping? Been on any trips with them to check the equipment out? Doubt it....
Fortunately President Bush had the solution, which was the use of his inherent constitutional authority to conduct these surveillances....
Oh, so you've been to law school as well? Do tell. Where? Who was your ConLaw professor? I'll have to say that while I've never had the 'pleasure' of taking any courses from John Yoo, I did run into that Federalist Society crypto-fascist in one past incarnation....
As a last note most of these surveillances would not meet FISA requirements to have a warrant even required under FISA is my guess, because most of the people involved won't meet FISA's definition of a US Person and/or most of the intercepts are being done outside the territorial boundries of the USA.
Oh, so you admit that the evidence wasn't worth a hill'o'beans. But you also admit that you're just guessing and blowing smoke. May I suggest it's time for you to collect the paycheck for your two ignerrent posts here, and STFU and go back to Freeperville....
TalkLeft and I have come to the conclusion that what may have happened is that the NSA has a Super-Echelon that can scan all of the internet for persons or keywords and store, link, and trace the posters. Bush said no problem turn it on and the wiretap guidelines aren't really set up for this amount of data where you may not know who gets scooped up at first.
ReplyDeleteAs Echelon already had both voice recognition and multiple language scanning this means everything is monitored.
The previous BS poster was incorrect and repeating the spin about FISA. Over 15,000 warants were obtained and depending on who is counting 0-8 were denied. FISA was also set up where you didn't have to get approval in advance - just within 72 hours have a conservative secret court sign off.
However, I am now actually now seeing some point to the Administration dithering and parsing words assuming Super-Echelon activation. You may get a communigue flagged and decide to follow it and expand the search for everything that address sent or recieved and not know who it is or where it leads.
Don't get me wrong - I think it still needs court oversight and limitations placed on this power. I just think this is the explanation that has been lacking.
Arne, there wasn't a single thing in your post except "your wrong, XXXX ad hominem ad hominem" followed by you telling me not to use ad hominem's.
ReplyDeleteAnd as a matter of act I did go to law school, as have lots of other people who think the President has inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless searches. One of those lawyers is Jamie (the Wall) Gorelick from the 9/11 commission and former Deputy Attorney General to President Clinton.
And to Gary, you and Arne both seem to have trouble distinguishing between the paperwork and bureacracy hurdles that have to be cleared BEFORE you can get your request for a warrant in front of a FISA judge, and how long that takes. It took so long that the 9/11 commission complained about it. So its IRRELEVANT when talking about speed to state how many requests have been approved versus turned down. That says NOTHING about how long it takes to get the request in front of the FISA judge.
Finally, on these points I would say that you have completely failed to grasp or even attempt to grasp (much less respond to in any meaningful way)the points I've made about it being impossible to know in advance all the things one needs to know to get the FISA warrant application in front of the judge to consider, and you just blowoff probable cause requirements when all you have is a phone number that was in some bad guy's computer. Here's a clue that's not probable cause. Even bad guys have to call their doctor or their dry cleaner.
What I love the most is how any time something is stated that you have no answer to, or don't understand, you just blow it off with that's just some right wing crap. Then you complain no doubt about how closed minded are the right wingers. Riiiggghhht.
Now for the really fun part of this post.
> Read 'em and weep boys: I wonder how Carl Levin, Russ Feingold, and Barbara
> Boxer are going to explain this to the American People.
>
> Next on Drudge. Monkeys spotted flying out of the Ass of Harry Reid. Film
> at 11:00!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
>
> From Drudge:
>
>
> CLINTON ADMINISTRATION SECRET SEARCH ON AMERICANS -- WITHOUT COURT ORDER
>
> CARTER EXECUTIVE ORDER: 'ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE' WITHOUT COURT ORDER
>
> Bill Clinton Signed Executive Order that allowed Attorney General to do
> searches without court approval
>
> Clinton, February 9, 1995: "The Attorney General is authorized to approve
> physical searches, without a court order"
>
> Jimmy Carter Signed Executive Order on May 23, 1979: "Attorney General is
> authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign
> intelligence information without a court order."
>
> WASH POST, July 15, 1994: Extend not only to searches of the homes of U.S.
> citizens but also -- in the delicate words of a Justice Department
> official -- to "places where you wouldn't find or would be unlikely to find
> information involving a U.S. citizen... would allow the government to use
> classified electronic surveillance techniques, such as infrared sensors to
> observe people inside their homes, without a court order."
>
> Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick, the Clinton administration
> believes the president "has inherent authority to conduct warrantless
> searches for foreign intelligence purposes."
>
> Secret searches and wiretaps of Aldrich Ames's office and home in June and
> October 1993, both without a federal warrant.
>
That's right Jamie (the Wall) Gorelick says, the President has inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless searches of US citizens and their homes (far more intrusive than just a mere wiretap).
Ouch, now that's gotta hurt.
GaryL
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteArne, there wasn't a single thing in your post except "your wrong, XXXX ad hominem ad hominem" followed by you telling me not to use ad hominem's.
There was plenty there. Too bad you weren't able to see it. As for the ad hominem: First, I didn't tell you not to use it; I just said that it didn't add much to your 'argument'. Second, there's a difference between gratuitous insult and argumentum ad hominem. I guess that this would be a bad time to point out that your prior post, as well as the ad hominem, was an example of "straw man" fallacy, in attributing to me (the "lefty criminal lawyer") things that I never said or did. As I said, logical fallacies certainly shore up your miserable rhetoric. And lastly, when you choose to be disingenuous or ignorant, you should expect that it will be pointed out in any intelligent discussion.
And as a matter of act I did go to law school, as have lots of other people who think the President has inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless searches.
Must have dozed through the ConLaw class where they talked about the Fourth Amendment then, eh? Or perhaps the mandatory ConLaw class just went into standing, justiciability, and all that kind of framework, and didn't have time for any in-depth treatment of civil rights law (I know our intro class didn't, but subsequent ones did). Perhaps you can explain why you think that searches don't require a warrant. Feel free to toss out "exigent circumstances", Terry or what have you, but do cite some caselaw to make your case. Simply saying that the Fourth Amendment doesn't say what it says would get you in trouble with L'il Nino, who thinks that "textual literalism" is some talisman of Constitutional interpretation (depsite thinking that the Eleventh Amendment says precisely what it does not say).
Maybe you're basing this on the principle that the pResident has some powers that are beyond -- and which supersede -- the provisions of the Constitution he has sworn to uphold and defend. Or he's exempt from the restrictions of the Constitution due to some "separation of powers" or "co-equal" branch of gummint nonsense. In fact, I did bring that up in ConLaw class one time, when we were on the general question of who gets to decide thesekinds of things. I pointed out that, from a practical standpoint, the President can do whatever he wants; the Constitution as a piece of paper has little power to restrain him physically from whatever he wants, and if he decides that he is the Grand Poobah of Constitutional interpretation, he's got the army.... Prof. Choper said "that's a subject for a different class" and moved on. Most people assume good faith on the part of the various gummint entities, and some degree of co-operation and respect for each other (and the Constitution); if this doesn't occur, the whole damn thing breaks down and becomes the subject for poli sci or history classes.... I'd point out that the Founders weren't totally unaware of this possibility, and also provided for some more checks and balances, such as impeachment (not to mention the unstated assumption that when a gummint gets toorepressive, it is the right and the duty of the people to dissolve and/or overthrow it).
One of those lawyers is Jamie (the Wall) Gorelick from the 9/11 commission and former Deputy Attorney General to President Clinton.
BS. But you got that from the RW "spin points" du jour. See below for a link to a refutation of this. I'd note that you'd undoubtedly be screaming bloody murder if if were a Democrat that was making the many claims of "executive privilege" that Dubya has been arrogating. Why you put up with such when it's Dubya that's doing it is beyond me. Just a reminder: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job...." See any problem?
But if Jamie Gorelick did do such a thing, that's the ol' tu quoque defence. Hate to tell you this, but that's hardly a winner in a court of law. If I go in court and tell the judge that someone else also went and killed someone, that isn't going to get me off, is it? Saying that someone's done it before doesn't make it legal. But I do love the RW sycophants' sudden appreciation for Clinton. Charming, really, how they've let bygones be bygones and come to appreciate his wit and wisdom ... for things that you'd expect they'd be on a complete tear about were he in fact doing it now.....
What I love the most is how any time something is stated that you have no answer to, or don't understand, you just blow it off with that's just some right wing crap.
If you see me doing any such thing, feel free to point it out, and I'll see if I can mend my ways. But I think you badly miss the boat if you think I'm blowing off anything here. In fact, I have a tendency to get rather too wordy....
And to Gary, you and Arne both seem to have trouble distinguishing between the paperwork and bureacracy hurdles that have to be cleared BEFORE you can get your request for a warrant in front of a FISA judge, and how long that takes....
What makes you think that? I have little evidence that any problme was found WRT to time.
...It took so long that the 9/11 commission complained about it....
Cites?
.... So its IRRELEVANT when talking about speed to state how many requests have been approved versus turned down.
They have the first bite at the apple free. No wait whatsoever. I think I said that before. Perhaps if I say it a third time, you'll start to understand it.
Now for the really fun part of this post. [blathering snipped from Drudge omitted for mercy's sake]
Oh, really? Quoting that noted legal analyst Matt Drudge??? Here ya go, check this Drudge "fact check" out.... Get back to me when you're done with that. Gee, that was fun, wasn't it?
* * * *
Getting back on topic, it seems that you folks think that 9/11 changed everything, that we're "at war", and that this invests the Preznit with all kinds of powers I wouldn't even trust my own mother with. Sorry to say, the founders were wise people, and pruposely limited the power of the President, explicitly rejecting the idea that he could decide when and where to go to war, placing it instead in the (supposedly) more deliberative hands of Congress. That, in my book (as it should be for all rational people), is a non-delegable power. No "blank checks". No open-ended "wars". What's more, even if there was an actual war declaree by Congress, that hardly renders the Constitution (that defines the powers of the government) a nullity. Any action taken by the President must be in conformance with the Constitution. No exceptions. The founders knew about wars (and in fact had just been through a much more serious and devastating war just a few years prior), and they put into the Constitution the changes that they thought necessary. Read it. And read it again. Search "war", and see what it says. If they had intended the Constitution or the Bill of Rights to have war-time expections (or even intended that certain changes to the status quo should be possible with Congressional action during war), they would have said so in the founding Supreme Law. Heck, they did do that. So all this garbage about "9/11 changes everything" is just you panty-waist trembling cornered mice willing to sell your own rights down the toilet to Mr. "You're doing a heck of a job" Doofus-In-Chief ... who happened to be the person asleep at the wheel when 9/11 actually hit... Sorry, but my rights belong to me and I'll be damned if you try to sell my rights down the drain becvause you're so paralyzed with fear that your knees are knocking your ears off....
Cheers,
OBTW, GaryL:
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned IR surveillance in your "tu quoque" defence. Say, what did ol' Nino (and the majorioty of the U.S. Supreme Court) say about IR surveillances? If you're having difficulty answering, you might check here. Maybe that answes the question as to whether such is legal without a warrant....
Cheers,
Arne, I guess you are used to getting paid by the word or otherwise you have a narcissitic love of your own voice. Nothing else could explain that last post which was certainly the award winner for all fluff and no substance. I'll hand it to you though you can string together a bunch of flowery sentences that say nothing meaningful with the best of them.
ReplyDeleteAs for your supposed debunk of the Drudge stuff:
Fair enough as far as the fact check goes, but you and they omit the fact that Clinton's people argued to congress that the President has "inherent constitutional authority" that isn't defined by these statutes. Just like the current President's advisor say. There is nothing that at fact check that says they never asserted the claim that the President has "inherent constitutional authority outside of the statutes". The reason is because Clinton's justice department DID SAY THIS.
Regarding your straw man argument about claiming Clinton did warrantless spying as a defense for something, I'm afraid I never said that. Perhaps instead of more con law that you never understood some good old fashioned reading for comprehension would have helped you more. What I was pointing out and which you either ignore or are to reading challenged to comprehend is that there are other lawyers, democrat lawyers, who have analyzed the law and found the PRESIDENT HAS INHERENT CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY in this area. One of those lawyers who testified to this UNDER OATH in front of congress was Clinton's own Jamie (the Wall) Gorelick.
There are many other lawyers whose analysis leads them to state this obvious fact about the President's inherent authority. One such lawyer is another CLINTON deputy attorney general named John Scmidt who published the following excellent analysis in today's Chicago Tribune. I've included the cite for your education.
Quoting From John Scmidt Begins here..........
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed
President had legal authority to OK taps
By John Schmidt
Published December 21, 2005
John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.
President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.
The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.
In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.
Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.
In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."
But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."
Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."
Quoting From John Scmidt Ends here..........
Another lawyer you may have heard of who published an article yesterday that supported the President's actions as both legal AND NECESSARY ON A POLICY BASIS because FISA doesn't work right or fast enough in today's environment is a judge you may have heard of. Judge Posner from the 7th circuit court of appeals. Author of numerous legal texts and commentaries. I'll leave it to you to find his pubhlished article from yesterday just so you have something to occupy your mind while absorbing this beat down.
NEXT.....
GaryL
BTW, just to mention since you claimed I hadn't supported my previous statements, since 12/18 I have posted on this website the cites and reasoning out of Keith, Troung, etc. as is nicely summarized and cited by me on 12/18 in the FISA Court of Review Opinion of 11/18/05.
I apologize for not having mastered nearly as well as you the art of saying nothing and avoiding all substance while sounding so wonderfully and poetically entralled with one's own literary voice. Due to these inadequacies, I was forced to just proivde substantive and factual information in this reply, however inartfully.
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteArne, I guess you are used to getting paid by the word or otherwise you have a narcissitic love of your own voice. Nothing else could explain that last post which was certainly the award winner for all fluff and no substance.
LOL. After your little tome here. As for whether there's substance, I really care little for your opinion of that. You haven't shown much judgement lately, so I can safely discard it.
Fair enough as far as the fact check goes, ...
So you admit to citing garbage.
... but you and they omit the fact that Clinton's people argued to congress that the President has "inherent constitutional authority" that isn't defined by these statutes.
But he does. For instance, he has constitutional authority to appoint executive officers. Not in those statutes, but but he does have that auithority. But that's not particularly relevant here. Nor is your non-specific claims to such undescribed powers. Without a). A specific quote of the claim, and b). a specific authority claimed, not worth talking about. OTOH, Dubya thinks he has authority to wiretap without a warrant just cuz he's the prez.... So can we stick to discussing that?
And then you have to deal with the fact (as I pointed out but which you and all the rest of the RW sychophants ignore) that Clinton doesn't get to decide whether Dubya's behaviour is Constitutional (aren't you glad?).
Regarding your straw man argument about claiming Clinton did warrantless spying as a defense for something, I'm afraid I never said that.
You cited Drudge (and Gorelick). What were you thinking then? Maybe you need to polish your arguments to make them a little coherent before offering them?
What I was pointing out and which you either ignore or are to reading challenged to comprehend is that there are other lawyers, democrat lawyers, who have analyzed the law and found the PRESIDENT HAS INHERENT CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY in this area.
Yeah, you snip-cited Gorelick (as you cut-n-pasted from either Drudge or whatever other RW "talking points" you're going by). But, as pointed out, Gorelick didn't claim that what Dubya's doing is constitutional. Besides, you mistake my reasoning for the Republican version thereof: I don't take something as gospel because some Democrat said it (if that is indeed the case; not at all clear here). Citing Democratic lawyers is hardly convincing to me (particularly when the RW "spin machine" is busy twisting what they did say into something they didn't say [see above]).
As for the Schmidt article, several claims there were also touched on by the article I linked to. They in fact discuss in some depth the various quotes that Schmidt seems to be so enamoured of.
And if you think Posner had something worthwhile to say, out with it.
... so you have something to occupy your mind while absorbing this beat down.
Bet you think they tossed flowers at the troops in Iraq too....
BTW, just to mention since you claimed I hadn't supported my previous statements, since 12/18 I have posted on this website the cites and reasoning out of Keith, Troung, etc. as is nicely summarized and cited by me on 12/18 in the FISA Court of Review Opinion of 11/18/05.
Not on this thread. Link to it if you think you said something worthwhile (you do know how to do that, don't you?). Can't respond to what I don't see. Unlike Republicans, I find hallucinations (such as WoMD in Iraq) to be less than substantial, and actually look for evidence....
Cheers,
Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.
ReplyDeleteIn the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."
But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."
Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."
No response to the above from Arne or anyone else, obviously because they don't have one. Its hard to find a legal opinion that supports their world view when there isn't one. There are 4 cases as mentioned above where the federal courts have ALL said that the President has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters.
Arne if you've got a contrary cite where a court has held against the President having inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters. I'd love to see it. Maybe you can find that on point case that has eluded 12 Federal Appellate court justices.
So far all you've got is a lot bullshit talk, but still no substance in your replies.
GaryL
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteFour federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.
You'd better be paid by the post, because they don't tally in the word count the stuff where you cut'n'paste the RW "talking points" du jour
Here's your RW "spin" gong up in smoke:
Drudge
York
Schmidt
and Drudge again (not to mention all the RW "spinners" who are busily blasting this c*** out as loud and a s far as they can.
But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."
Context, context, context.
The article also conveniently omits the two sentences after the excerpt:
It was incumbent upon the [Truong] court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power. The question before us is the reverse…
All the court is saying here is that whether FISA imposes limits on the President’s authority is not an issue in this case. It was an issue in the Troung case but, as the court explains, “[T]he question before us is the reverse.”
IOW, you're quoting dicta here, aintcha? And you do knwo what that means, right?
And as also pointed out over at TP, Truong was decided the year that the FISA act was passed and did notinvolve the FISA law at all.
No response to the above from Arne or anyone else, obviously because they don't have one.
Oh, nonsense. You don't see one because you desperately don't want to see one. Just as you most likely see garlands being tossed at American soldiers and "democracy" in the New Islamic Republic of West Iran. And saw WoMD poking out from every bed.
OTOH, you're not being particularly responsive here, just parroting the SOS that you did last post. Clue for you: Repeating your previous posts pretty much verbatim only counts for 0.5 Republican Leadership points, so you're goimng to have to do twice as many to get that Dubya tote bag you're lusting after.....
Arne if you've got a contrary cite where a court has held against the President having inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters. I'd love to see it. Maybe you can find that on point case that has eluded 12 Federal Appellate court justices.
First tell me why I should respond to carefully snipped and culled dicta quoted out of context. Fair 'nuff?
Cheers,
Arne said
ReplyDeleteArne if you've got a contrary cite where a court has held against the President having inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters. I'd love to see it. Maybe you can find that on point case that has eluded 12 Federal Appellate court justices.
First tell me why I should respond to carefully snipped and culled dicta quoted out of context. Fair 'nuff?
That's not an answer that's a bullshit dodge, because your incorrect legal ramblings can't cover the fact there is no such case and apparently you know that. This means you are just deliberately and intentionally lying in an attempt to mislead people who read your posts, by trying with your dodge to pretend there is such a case but you're just to lazy to look it up. There is no federal appellate case that says the President does Not have inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters. You know it. You also know there are 4 other federal appellate cases that ALL say the President does have such inherent power.
The dicta in the 2002 FIS Court of Review appeal is the considered unanimous opinion of 3 federal appellate judges as to what the law is in fact. Saying its dicta does NOT change that fact. 3 federal appellate judges who are specialist in foreign intelligence surveillance law all unanimously stated that the law was absolutely clear that the President does have inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters AND that congress by FISA or any other statute MAY NOT encroach on that authority.
Now, I don't know about any other person visting here, but for me when it comes to taking your considered opinion or the considered opinion of 3 federal appellate judges who specialize in this area of the law, I'm afraid your credentials and credibility just don't match up.
Regarding Troung your statements regarding the date of its holding are irrelvent to the fact that the Troung court recognized the President's inherent authority in this area. FISA didn't change that, as 3 other fedeal appellate courts have found, including the FIS Court of Review. Your claims to the contrary on the Troung case indicate you either don't know how to read and understand case law or are again deliberately trying to mislead the readers of your posts.
Instead of boring everyone with a reply that tries to distract from the fact you have nothing of substance to say and are merely trying to divert attention away from the fact you can not answer the basic questions by citing a single case that supports your false claims, why don't you just admit the truth we all know by now. There is no case that says the President does not have this inherent authority in foreign intelligence surveillance, and there are 4 cases that unanimously say he does.
GaryL
Can't wait for your next illiteration.... "talking points, talking points, snip, talking points, its not true but I'm too lazy to offer any proof or cites its not true, you're a liar,..blah blah blah blah blah."
Idiot.
And now.....
ReplyDeletePresident Clinton on far less legal ground than applies to foreign intelligence surveillance bragged about using warrantless searches for purely domestic US citizen routine criminal matters not involving foreign intelligence needs whatsoever.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051222-122610-7772r.htm
In 1994, President Clinton expanded the use of warrantless searches to entirely domestic situations with no foreign intelligence value whatsoever. In a radio address promoting a crime-fighting bill, Mr. Clinton discussed a new policy to conduct warrantless searches in highly violent public housing projects.
Gary
Yet another example of President's looking at the law and claiming inherent power. Although unlike President Bush, President Clinton claimed this power without any court authority, because there are no court cases that say the President has this inherent authority for purely domestic routine criminal matters.
Where was the New York Slimes traitorours writers when Clinton was conducting these warrantless searches. Where was theirs and many people here's outrage at the lawless actions of the Clinton administration.
Can any of you say lying hypocrites?
Gary
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteThat's not an answer that's a bullshit dodge, because your incorrect legal ramblings can't cover the fact there is no such case and apparently you know that.
Actually, I do not know if there is such a case. What I do know is that you seem to be citing dicta (in a curiously abbreviated spin, too, which you also haven't explained) from a case (as are all the RW "spinners" furiously spinning their talking points) as support for your proposition. As pointed out by Talk
Progress, the 2002 case is hardly "established law" for the specific claim you are making here.
.... This means you are just deliberately and intentionally lying in an attempt to mislead people who read your posts, by trying with your dodge to pretend there is such a case but you're just to lazy to look it up.
Wowie zowie. Here we have a public written assertion of "intentional lying" by me. Say, counsellor, what laws would cover such behaviour?
There is no federal appellate case that says the President does Not have inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters.
Maybe that specific issue has never arisen, eh? I'd note that the 2002 case states that is is the first case that has come up for review under the FISA act. I won't demand you prove a negative, but the least you can do is show a decision where it was held (and you know what that means, right?) that "President [does] have inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters".
But setting that aside for the moment, what is at issue (and what the RW "spinners" carefuly dodge) is whether, under the provisions of FISA, the gummint is entitled to snoop without a warrant -- not on "foreign intelligence matters" as a generalized and unqualified proposition -- but on communications to which a "U.S. person" is a party or likely to be a party. I'd note that when they target all communications, or even just international communications, of such a "U.S. person" as the target, they are doing a snoop that the FISA act specifically prohibited.
So who's being carefully and deliberately evasive here, and trying to change the question or to muddle the issue? The NSA has long snooped on communications, without a warrant, among foreign powers, and no one has said that's illegal. That is one instance of "warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters". But that hardly makes all such warrantless surveillances legal, does it?
The dicta in the 2002 FIS Court of Review appeal is the considered unanimous opinion of 3 federal appellate judges....
And you went to law school where??? The Crackerjack Box School of Mail-Rebate Law?
(Of course, I'm being kind here and not pointing out yet again that this lttle snip you RW "spinners" are so enamoured of is taken out of context, and is hardly even a firm statement of the somewhat urrelevant proposition you claim for it; just because they "take for granted" something, and say "assuming that is so" is hardly a positive assertion they have determined this for themselves, even as a matter of dicta).
"...AND that congress by FISA or any other statute MAY NOT encroach on that authority."
Oh, really? Where did they say that??? Seems to me that the case was decided by saying that the surveilance was consistent with FISA:
"We, therefore, believe firmly, applying the balancing test drawn from Keith, that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable."
Or are you reading "Findlaw.pluto"?
Now, I don't know about any other person visting here, but for me when it comes to taking your considered opinion or the considered opinion of 3 federal appellate judges who specialize in this area of the law, I'm afraid your credentials and credibility just don't match up.
Well, fortunately, we're not faced with that choice. We can decide whether what I say has more veracity than what you say three judges have said. Those three judges aren't here to explain themselves, they were ocnsidering a different issue, and they didn't say what you said.
Regarding Troung your statements regarding the date of its holding are irrelvent to the fact that the Troung court recognized the President's inherent authority in this area.
Oh, really? Where? What specifically did they say? Let's get specific, seeing as you are so wont to misquote decisions....
I'd note that FISA was not in effect at the time of the Truong surveillance, though. I think you need to cite some actual substantive law that says that the Preznit has some penumbra of emanations that gives him the power to void the warrant requirement when he deems it useful. Then you have to show that some court has decided that the FISA law in fact exceeds the permissible limits of Congress because it unduly and un-Constitutionally restricts Dubya's Big-Brother powers. Good luck ta ya.... Let me know when you find something.
FISA didn't change that, as 3 other fedeal appellate courts have found....
Ummm, did they "find" this, or did you find this in some dicta somewhere? If the former, trot out the holdings, OK?
Hint fer ya: The 2002 decision found that the FISA law was constitutional. But it didn't involve warrantless wiretaps, did it? And it doesn't help Dubya much if the FISA law is constitutional when what Dubya was doing was ignoring the FISA procedures.....
Your claims to the contrary on the Troung case indicate you either don't know how to read and understand case law or are again deliberately trying to mislead the readers of your posts.
Ummm, show me where the Truong held anything like you said it held.
But I did look at the 2002 case, and it doesn't say what you said it says. Just sroll up to where I cite from the holding (also note they cite Keith there, not Truong). TP was spot-on there in pointing that out. If you're having difficulty with that, I would say you shouldn't use me as a reference when trying to attract legal clients.
[GaryL quoting the Moonie Times]: "In a radio address promoting a crime-fighting bill, Mr. Clinton discussed a new policy to conduct warrantless searches in highly violent public housing projects."
"KKKlinton! KKKlinton! KKKlinton did it toooooooooo!!!!" ROFLMAO. Must cause you seriouscognitive dissonance to have to cite Clinton as an authority to "justify" your Doofus-In-Chief's Big-Brother state. But I'd note (as you seem to be unaware) that the issue with the housing searches had to do with whether there was some kind of "implied consent" that could be forced on public housing occupants that would negate the need for warrants under the Fourth Amendment. I'd note that many thousands of warrantless searches take place every day ... so the idea shouldn't be foreign to you; the question is whether there's some kind of consent. Are you sure you went to law school???
Where was the New York Slimes traitorours writers when Clinton was conducting these warrantless searches.
Ummm, I can guarantee you that it was the ACLU types that protested these searches, and I'm guessing that you and your cryptofascist buddies applauded them ... unless they were looking for guns, of course....
Now what does your RW "talking points" memo tell you to say next?
Cheers,
Arne-
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your last post it definitely confirmed that which I already suspected.
Either you aren't a lawyer because you've made so many incorrect and untrue statements about what cases say and mean, and/or your a moron pretending to be a lawyer. These statements are based upon the assumption you've actually read the FIS Court of Review opinion as you claim, if you were to admit you've never read it then that (rather than you being a moronic liar) could explain how you would make so many claims about what that case says or doesn't say that aren't included therein.
Regarding case cites, I've posted them serveral times. You just keep ignoring them because you are either incompetent to discuss them, or know they don't support any of your disingenuous statements and claims.
For anyone else who might be interested here yet again are more case cites and analysis from real lawyers (unlike Arne here who just lies about being one on the internet; Yes Arne there is that liar word again, if you think my expression of an opinion that you are lying in this forum or are an incredible moron who doesn't know the difference between truth and fiction is actionable, then hire a real lawyer and sue me. Otherwise just STFU with your childish threats, and save them for the 6th graders you play with whom might be impressed.) The following excellent analysis joins the one referenced previously by me that was written by the former Clinton Deputy Attorney General John Schmidt, and was published in the Chicago Tribune on 12/21/05:
Following from John Hinderaker:
On the Legality of the NSA Electronic Intercept Program
It has been widely suggested that the NSA electronic intercept program that has been carried out by the Bush administration for the last three years is, or may be, illegal. The New York Times and other media outlets have implied, without saying outright, that the program is unconstitutional or otherwise improper. The Democrats have picked the ball up and run with it; the Democratic National Committee sent out an email yesterday that characterized the program as "illegal surveillance" constituting an "explosive scandal."
In fact, though, if one reviews the controlling legal authorities, it is hard to see what the fuss is about. For purposes of this analysis, I have assumed that the NSA intercepts electronic messages (phone calls and emails); that when the agency learns of a foreign cell phone or email address that is being used by a terrorist, it inputs that phone number or address into its surveillance system and is then able to intercept all incoming and outgoing communications; that the intent of the program is to intercept only international communications, i.e., those where at least one of the parties is located outside the United States; but on relatively rare occasions, communications between two people who are both located in the U.S. are intercepted. Under the governing legal principles, however, the precise details of the program shouldn't make any difference.
The starting point, of course, is the Constitution. Article II of the Constitution sets out the powers and duties of the President. Some people do not seem to realize that the executive branch is coequal with the legislative and judicial branches. The President has certain powers under the Constitution, and they cannot be taken away or limited by Congressional legislation any more than the President can limit the powers of Congress by executive order.
Article II makes the President Commander in Chief of the armed forces. As such he is preeminent in foreign policy, and especially in military affairs. This was no accident; as Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist No. 74, "Of all the cares or concerns of government, the direction of war most peculiarly demands those qualities which distinguish the exercise of power by a single hand." The federal courts have long recognized that when it comes to waging war, the President, not Congress or the courts, is the supreme authority. In Fleming v. Page, 9 How. 603, 615 (1850), the Supreme Court wrote that the President has the Constitutional power to "employ [the Nation's armed forces] in the manner he may deem most effectual to harass and conquer and subdue the enemy."
No one questions this basic principle. If our soldiers or intelligence agencies discover a terrorist in Afghanistan, Iraq or elsewhere, the President or his designees can order an air strike or other attack to kill him. It would be very odd if the President has the authority to kill a terrorist, but not to intercept his telephone calls or search his cave.
There is one relevant constitutional provision that acts as a restraint on the President's inherent power as Commander in Chief. That is the Fourth Amendment, which states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
So all searches and seizures of Americans or their property (including, as the courts have appropriately ruled, interceptions of telephonic and electronic communications) must be reasonable. Note, however, that this requirement does not apply to terrorists overseas. A Special Forces soldier can pick a cave arbitrarily and search it. He isn't trying to prosecute terrorists, he is trying to kill them. He doesn't need probable cause.
The Fourth Amendment includes requirements for the issuance of search warrants, and many critics of the NSA program seem to assume that this means that all searches must be executed pursuant to a warrant. This assumption is wrong. There are dozens of situations where warrantless searches have been approved by the courts. The overriding principle is that searches of Americans (defined to include resident aliens) must be reasonable.
One of the many situations where warrantless searches have been approved is when the government is seeking foreign intelligence information, such as information relating to potential terrorist threats. Next to the Constitution itself, of course, the highest authority is the United States Supreme Court. At least three Supreme Court cases have discussed this subject.
In 1967, the Court decided Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347. Katz involved the warrantless interception of a conversation held by a criminal defendant in a phone booth. The Court held that the Fourth Amendment applies to such conversations, and that in an ordinary criminal prosecution (subject to many exceptions, as noted above) a warrant is required for wiretap information to be admissible in court. The Court specifically noted, however, that its decision did not apply to situations involving national security:
Whether safeguards other than prior authorization by a magistrate would satisfy the Fourth Amendment in a situation involving the national security is a question not presented by this case.
Five years later, the Court decided United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972). This case arose out of a criminal prosecution for conspiracy to destroy government property. (One of the defendants was charged with dynamiting a Michigan office of the C.I.A.) The Court's majority opinion framed the issue as follows:
[This case] involves the delicate question of the President's power, acting through the Attorney General, to authorize electronic surveillance in internal security matters without prior judicial approval.
[Emphasis added.] While acknowledging that American governments had conducted warrantless surveillance in internal security cases "for more than one-quarter of a century," the Court held such surveillance unconstitutional under the circumstances presented.
For the present purpose, the relevant portions of the opinion are those that distinguish the case before the Court from cases involving foreign intelligence gathering:
[T]he instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country.
And again:
We emphasize, before concluding this opinion, the scope of our decision. As stated at the outset, this case involves only the domestic aspects of national security. We have not addressed, and express no opinion as to, the issues which may be involved with respect to activities of foreign powers or their agents.
It should be noted, too, that the Court did not hold that in domestic security cases, warrants are always required; it merely rejected the government's assertion of a blanket exemption for all such surveillance.
The third relevant Supreme Court case is Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004). Hamdi was an American citizen who was captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan and sued the Defense Department, claiming that his indefinite detention as an enemy combatant was unconstitutional. The Court upheld Hamdi's detention, while also ruling that he was entitled to a limited hearing regarding the facts of his detention. The government offered alternative theories in support of Hamdi's detention; the Court's plurality opinion describes them as follows:
The Government maintains that no explicit congressional authorization is required, because the Executive possesses plenary authority to detain pursuant to Article II of the Constitution. We do not reach the question whether Article II provides such authority, however, because we agree with the Government's alternative position, that Congress has in fact authorized Hamdi's detention through the AUMF [the post-September 11 Authorization for the Use of Military Force].
The Court noted that apprehending military combatants is a necessary incident of the use of military force:
We conclude that detention of individuals falling into the limited category we are considering, for the duration of the particular conflict in which they were captured, is so fundamental and accepted an incident to war as to be an exercise of the "necessary and appropriate force" Congress has authorized the President to use.
Thus, neither the language of the Constitution nor the Supreme Court’s jurisprudence can justify a claim that the NSA program is illegal. While the Court has never specifically ruled on the issue, its decisions are entirely consistent with the administration's view that the President has the inherent constitutional authority to obtain foreign intelligence information through warrantless searches. We turn now to the decisions of the federal Courts of Appeal.
This specific question was first addressed by the Fifth Circuit in United States v. [Cassius] Clay, 430 F.2d 165 (5th Cir. 1970). In the course of its opinion rejecting defendant’s claim that his conviction was based on information obtained from illegal wiretaps, the court wrote:
The fifth wiretap was not disclosed to defendant because the District Court found that the surveillance was lawful, having been authorized by the Attorney General, for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information. The Supreme Court has not yet decided whether electronic surveillance for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information is constitutionally permissible [citation omitted], though Mr. Justice White has expressed the view that such surveillance does not violate the Fourth Amendment. [citation omitted]
We…discern no constitutional prohibition against the fifth wiretap. Section 605 of Title 47, U.S.C., is a general prohibition against publication or use of communications obtained by wiretapping, but we do not read the section as forbidding the President, or his representative, from ordering wiretap surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence in the national interest.
In 1974, the Third Circuit decided United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3rd Cir. 1974), where the defendant was convicted of espionage. The court wrote:
In sum, we hold that, in the circumstances of this case, prior judicial authorization was not required since the district court found that the surveillances of Ivanov were “conducted and maintained solely for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence information.”
Three years later, the Ninth Circuit decided United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir. 1977), a firearms prosecution. The court said:
Foreign security wiretaps are a recognized exception to the general warrant requirement….
In 1980, the Fourth Circuit decided United States v. Truong, another criminal prosecution that arose out of the defendant’s spying on behalf of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The case squarely presented the issue of the executive branch’s inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance for national security purposes:
The defendants raise a substantial challenge to their convictions by arguing that the surveillance conducted by the FBI violated the Fourth Amendment and that all the evidence uncovered through that surveillance must consequently be suppressed. As has been stated, the government did not seek a warrant for the eavesdropping on Truong’s phone conversations or the bugging of his apartment. Instead, it relied upon a “foreign intelligence” exception to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. In the area of foreign intelligence, the government contends, the President may authorize surveillance without seeking a judicial warrant because of his constitutional prerogatives in the area of foreign affairs.
The court agreed with the government’s position:
For several reasons, the needs of the executive are so compelling in the area of foreign intelligence, unlike the area of domestic security, that a uniform warrant requirement would, following [United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972)], “unduly frustrate” the President in carrying out his foreign affairs responsibilities. First of all, attempts to counter foreign threats to the national security require the utmost stealth, speed and secrecy. A warrant requirement would add a procedural hurdle that would reduce the flexibility of executive foreign intelligence activities, in some cases delay executive response to foreign intelligence threats, and increase the chance of leaks regarding sensitive executive operations.
The court held that warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes are constitutional, as long as the “object of the search or the surveillance is a foreign power, its agent or collaborators,” and the search is conducted “primarily” for foreign intelligence reasons.
The state of the law was summed up by the Second Circuit in United States v. Duggan, 743 F.2d 59 (1984), a terrorism case in which the court, among other rulings, upheld the constitutionality of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was adopted in 1981. The court wrote:
Prior to the enactment of FISA, virtually every court that had addressed the issue had concluded that the President had the inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence information, and that such surveillances constituted an exception to the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment.
Finally, in 2002, the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review decided Sealed Case No. 02-001. This case arose out of a provision of the Patriot Act that was intended to break down the “wall” between law enforcement and intelligence gathering. The Patriot Act modified Truong’s “primary purpose” test by providing that surveillance under FISA was proper if intelligence gathering was one “significant” purpose of the intercept. In the course of discussing the constitutional underpinnings (or lack thereof) of the Truong test, the court wrote:
The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power. The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President’s power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government’s contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable.
That is the current state of the law. The federal appellate courts have unanimously held that the President has the inherent constitutional authority to order warrantless searches for purposes of gathering foreign intelligence information, which includes information about terrorist threats. Furthermore, since this power is derived from Article II of the Constitution, the FISA Review Court has specifically recognized that it cannot be taken away or limited by Congressional action.
That being the case, the NSA intercept program, which consists of warrantless electronic intercepts for purposes of foreign intelligence gathering, is legal.
It’s worth noting that all of the cases cited above involved warrantless searches inside the United States. The NSA program, in contrast, involves international communications only, and the intercepts take place at least in part, and perhaps wholly, outside the United States. Thus, the NSA case is even clearer than the cases that have already upheld Presidential power.
I’m tempted to stop there, since action by Congress can neither add to, nor detract from, the constitutional powers of the executive branch. Because others on both sides have introduced various statutes into the debate, however, I will deal with them briefly.
First, the administration has argued that in addition to its inherent powers, the NSA program is legal because it was authorized by Congress in the post-September 11 Authorization for the Use of Military Force. It is easy to see why the administration wants to employ this argument, since this is the rationale that was adopted by the Supreme Court in Hamdi. And one can certainly argue that the authorization, which says the administration can “use all necessary and appropriate force,” covers intercepting communications, since intelligence gathering is just as much a “fundamental and accepted incident of war” as detaining enemy combatants.
Nevertheless, I don’t think that the statutory argument adds anything to the administration’s position. The response from the other side would be, “Certainly we authorized the executive to collect intelligence, but we didn’t authorize it to break the law or violate the Constitution.” I think that point is well taken. The AUMF would not be interpreted to authorize the President to take actions that are otherwise illegal, just as, in Hamdi, the Court upheld the detention of enemy combatants but also imposed a procedure that it viewed as constitutionally required. So the argument quickly becomes circular: the AUMF did authorize the administration to engage in intelligence gathering, but only where such intelligence gathering is already proper by virtue of the President’s inherent constitutional powers, or other authority. So, in my view, the statutory argument adds nothing to the already clearly-established proposition that the NSA program is legal.
The other statute that has been discussed in connection with the legality of the NSA intercept program is FISA. It has been argued that FISA explicitly or implicitly requires the administration to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance only pursuant to the procedures set up under that statute.
As an initial matter, this argument has already been rejected by the very appellate court that is charged with interpreting and applying FISA, in Sealed Case No. 02-001. So, from the standpoint of critics of the administration’s program, the argument is a non-starter.
It’s interesting, nevertheless, to examine the provisions of FISA with a view toward answering this question: Given that the administration used the FISA warrant procedure for the vast majority of its anti-terror electronic intercepts, why did it bypass the FISA procedure in the relative handful of instances represented by the NSA program? One good answer to this question, of course, is speed. Obtaining a FISA warrant would require a matter of days, at least, and perhaps much longer. But when our forces overseas capture a terrorist and take possession of his laptop or cell phone, time is of the essence. Those phone numbers and email addresses will be useful only until the terrorist’s associates realize that he has been captured or killed. So the first days, hours or even minutes after the numbers and addresses fall into our possession are likely to be critical.
But there may be a second explanation that relates to the jurisdiction of the FISA court. The courts of the United States have jurisdiction within the United States and its possessions; they have no jurisdiction in, say, France or Afghanistan. In the U.S., a court can issue a warrant that requires a telephone company, for example, to cooperate with a government wiretap. It can make no such order in a foreign country. The jurisdictional limits of American courts are reflected, I think, in the scope of the FISA court’s authority as set out in Title 50, Section 1801 of the U.S. Code, the first section of the FISA statute. That section defines the “electronic surveillance” over which the FISA court has jurisdiction:
(f) “Electronic surveillance” means— (1) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally targeting that United States person, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes;
(2) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire communication to or from a person in the United States, without the consent of any party thereto, if such acquisition occurs in the United States, but does not include the acquisition of those communications of computer trespassers that would be permissible under section 2511 (2)(i) of title 18;
(3) the intentional acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any radio communication, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes, and if both the sender and all intended recipients are located within the United States; or
(4) the installation or use of an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device in the United States for monitoring to acquire information, other than from a wire or radio communication, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes.
Under this definition, FISA applies to four categories of electronic surveillance. The first—“ wire or radio communication[s] sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally targeting that United States person, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes…”—does not apply, as I understand the NSA program. The NSA intercepts target foreign terrorists overseas and sweep in all of their communications. To my knowledge, they do not “target” “particular, known United States person[s]” who are in the U.S.
The third category likewise has no application. It relates to interception of communications where both the sender and all intended recipients are located inside the United States. The NSA intercepts were authorized only for international communications.
That leaves the second and fourth categories. Note that the applicability of both sections turns on whether the surveillance activity in question takes place inside the United States. In subsection (2), the “acquisition” must occur in the United States. In subsection (4), the surveillance device must be “installed” or “used” inside the United States.
This is the one point where it would be helpful to know more about the details of the NSA operation. Based on what has been publicly disclosed, it seems likely that the NSA intercepts are picked up overseas, not inside the U.S. If that is the case, FISA simply has no application to the program. The answer to the question, “Why didn’t you obtain FISA orders authorizing these surveillances?” may be, “Because we couldn’t.” If the surveillance was outside the jurisdiction of the FISA court, no such orders could be issued. The administration could conclusively answer this question by disclosing where the surveillance equipment is located. But that is, of course, precisely the kind of secret information that the administration doesn’t want the terrorists to know.
In any event, as noted above, FISA might expand, but could not impinge on, the President’s inherent powers under the Constitution, which are more than sufficient to support the electronic intercepts at issue here, wherever they occurred.
One more statute is worth mentioning in the context of the above discussion of FISA: Chapter 19 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. This is the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986, the basic federal statute that prohibits you and me from wiretapping.
Section 2511 (2) (f) states:
(f) Nothing contained in this chapter or chapter 121 or 206 of this title, or section 705 of the Communications Act of 1934, shall be deemed to affect the acquisition by the United States Government of foreign intelligence information from international or foreign communications, or foreign intelligence activities conducted in accordance with otherwise applicable Federal law involving a foreign electronic communications system, utilizing a means other than electronic surveillance as defined in section 101 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, and procedures in this chapter or chapter 121 and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance, as defined in section 101 of such Act, and the interception of domestic wire, oral, and electronic communications may be conducted. [Emphasis added.]
Thus, Congress has made explicit the fact that no federal statute is intended to affect or limit any foreign intelligence gathering that is conducted outside the scope of “electronic surveillance, as defined in [FISA].” In other words, Congress has made no effort to address electronic surveillance that is carried out outside the United States, and does not target specifically identified American persons. This is consistent with Section 2511 (2)(f)’s statement that FISA and the Electronic Communications Privacy Act are the exclusive means by which the government may intercept domestic communications. Except to the very limited extent encompassed by FISA’s definition of “electronic surveillance,” Congress has never purported to address in any way the interception of foreign or international communications.
There is no mystery about the legality of the NSA intercept program. It is intended to capture foreign intelligence information, including information about potential terrorist threats, and as such, every federal court that has addressed the issue has held that it is within the inherent constitutional power of the President as Commander in Chief. Everything else is immaterial.
This brings us back where we started, i.e., the Constitution. The only constitutional limitation on the President’s power to intercept communications by Americans for national security purposes is that such intercepts be “reasonable.” Is it reasonable for the administration to do all it can to identify the people who are communicating with known terrorists overseas, via the terrorists’ cell phones and computers, and to learn what terrorist plots are being hatched by those persons? Is it reasonable to do so even when—rather, especially when--some portion of those communications come from people inside the United States? I don’t find it difficult to answer those questions; nor, if called upon to do so, would the Supreme Court.
There are, of course, liberal law professors who would like the law to be different from what it is. They are free to develop theories according to which the Supreme Court, should it someday address this issue directly, would rule as they wish. But the administration is entitled to rely on the law as it currently exists. And there is simply no question about the fact that under the Constitution and all controlling precedents, the NSA intercept program is legal.
UPDATE: The Department of Justice has laid out its argument for the legality of the NSA program in a letter to four Senators and Congressmen. Most of it is consistent with my analysis, but Justice also relies on the Authorization for the Use of Military Force, and offers a way around the circularity issue I raised. FISA contains an exception for electronic surveillance that is "authorized by statute," and Justice argues that the AUMF is such a statute. Well, maybe. But I still don't think it adds much to the argument based on the President's inherent Constitutional powers.
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteEither you aren't a lawyer because you've made so many incorrect and untrue statements about what cases say and mean, and/or your a moron pretending to be a lawyer....
Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you. But on my side, I don't go quoting dicta or, worse yet, misquotes that change the entire meaning of a passage.
Not to mention, I happen to know what the possessive of "you" is, and what the contraction for "you are" is. Doubt they ask that on the LSAT, but morons that don't know proper English usually appreciate the futility of even spending money on the LSAT....
But I'd note that I have bever said I'm a lawyer (albeit, neither have you).
Regarding case cites, I've posted them serveral times.
You should post the source, as well as the quote you think supports your claim. Didn't they teach you that? Links are handy too, but that may be asking too much of your seemingly limited abilities.
... (unlike Arne here who just lies about being one on the internet; Yes Arne there is that liar word again, ...
Ummm, sounds like you're the one lying here. I never claimed to be a lawyer here (and that's an easily verifiable fact just by reading the thread). Nasty boo-boo on your part, seeing as the proof of your false statement is so easily found. BTW, while you may claim it is your "opinion", what you stated above was a factual statement. If you had stated that "It is my opinion that Arne here ... lies about being one on the internet and I'm a moron too", I'd have to grant that it was just your opinion. But you didn't. While it ain't worth the bother to sue you, I think you're been shown to be a dishonest sombitch as well as a clueless berk well enough for public consumption purposes here.
Otherwise just STFU with your childish threats....
ROFLMAO!!! Humour-impaired as well, IC....
[snip lots of some one else's thoughts (and blabbering)]
Hindrocket's not exactly a reputable source. Just Google "Hindrocket" for some of his more laughable missives.....
So let's skip the 30 page cut'n'paste ramblings, and do some of our own words, eh?
Cheers,
Arne said:
ReplyDeleteSo let's skip the 30 page cut'n'paste ramblings
As is your usual, when you are unable to deal with the content, you try to obfuscate your lack of any substantive response with lame attempts at witty insults and slanders of others.
Its clear from your posts that you are not interested in a thoughtful exchange of any ideas and disagreements, and that you view your mission here as a simple quest to create enough irrelevant background noise so as to deny to any other interested person their right to consider thoughts of which you don't approve.
You are the intellectual equivalent of the 4 morons at a gathering of 100 people shouting down a speaker because they want to suppress the speaker's thoughts and speech and who don't give a damn about the other 96 person's rights to hear that which they came to hear.
I won't be responding to your posts in the future, because its clear that a free expression of ideas in an adult and thoughtful manner is something in which you are not interested. You are merely here to function as a particular kind of internet troll seeking to suppress thoughts and ideas with which you do not agree by burying them in the clutter of your substance-less slanders and droll attempts at witty repartee.
Gary
Gary
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteAs is your usual, when you are unable to deal with the content, you try to obfuscate your lack of any substantive response with lame attempts at witty insults and slanders of others.
Oh, did you "respond"??? I thought that Hindrocket had slipped over here and left his droppings. What did you say of any substance?
[snip a tirade of two paragraphs of insults]
I won't be responding to your posts in the future, because its clear that a free expression of ideas in an adult and thoughtful manner is something in which you are not interested.
Oh, nonsense. I did my two cents worth over at TP, FWIW, on the RW "spin" points about Keith, Truong, and the 2002 FISA case. It's somewhere around here (several posts). There's plenty of tohers that have taken the RW "talking points" apart; I have the good sense to link to them, rather than do massive cut'n'pastes like you do (apparently because you're clueless as to how to put in a link; is that so?)
So go look at the links I gave you above, and see if you can tell me where Judd and the others went wrong.
And while we're at it, care to explain how a person that went to law school (you, supposedly) managed to avoid the part where they said that dicta ain't "good law"? Care to explain why cut'n'paste from dicta (in fact even leaving out parts that refute the very interpretation of the words that you're trying to convey) is professional legal analysis? Care to explain why you RW folkas are citing cases where the holdings (e.g. Keith) are goinf pretty much opposite of what you're trying to foist of on the unwary???
When you do that, I might start taking your "arguments" (the few crumbs not obscured by the personal insults here) a it more seriously.
Here's from a previous post:
[Garyl]: Your claims to the contrary on the Troung case indicate you either don't know how to read and understand case law or are again deliberately trying to mislead the readers of your posts.
[Arne]Ummm, show me where the Truong held anything like you said it held.
Still waiting on that one. Just a few quotes from Truong would do. Then we can discuss them, as I did with Schmidt's pap over at the TP site....
Cheers,
GaryL:
ReplyDeleteAnd now we can add Glenn's most recent smackdown to the knockout punches that have been given to the pseudo-legal-scholars who keep trying to insist that black is white, up is down, and Dubya's just following the law.
Tell you what, Gary, who don't you go there and tell Glenn where he wnet wrong?
Cheers,