While many people compare the war in Iraq to the Vietnam War, Podhoretz has now decreed that the proper analogy is actually to the American Revolutionary War. Michael Moore previously drew this same analogy, provoking great scorn and ridicule from the Right because Moore equated the Iraqi insurgents to the American Minutemen bravely fighting for their country’s independence against the imperialist British intruders (the U.S.). But to Podhoretz, it is the steadfast American supporters of the Iraq War (such as himself, his wife, his son, his long-time comrade Irving Kristol, and Kristols’ wife and son -- the whole neocon family) who are the great revolutionary patriots, and he now sees anti-war critics as actually comparable to colonial sympathizers with the British Crown. Really.
Podhoretz molds this Iraq-Revolutionary War analogy and then goes all the way with it. Podhoretz thus casts himself as the courageous, resolute freedom-fighter Thomas Paine, while those who were formerly pro-war but now have growing doubts are castigated as "sunshine patriots," i.e., those colonial cowards who pretended to be supporters of the American Revolution but then lost their nerve and their will when the war against the British got tough, and they quickly started revealing themselves to be British sympathizers:
Here’s Podhoretz naming names and assigning everyone a role in his pretend Revolutionary War:
A goodly number of these Democrats (Howard Dean and Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, to name only two) are the "Tories" of today, in the sense of having from the very beginning stood openly and unambiguously against the revolution in foreign policy represented by the Bush Doctrine and now being put to the test in Iraq. But a much larger number of Democrats fit more smoothly into Tom Paine’s category of "disguised" Tories. These are the Congressmen and Senators who in their heart of hearts were against the resolution authorizing the President to use force against Saddam Hussein, but who—given the state of public opinion at the time—feared being punished at the polls unless they voted for it. Now, however, with public opinion moving in the other direction, they have been emboldened to "show their heads."
Finally, we have a certain number of Democrats who correspond to the "the summer soldiers and the sunshine patriots" of the American Revolution.
One of them is Congressman John Murtha, who backed the invasion of Iraq because (to give him the benefit of the doubt) he really thought it was the right thing to do, but who has now bought entirely into the view that all is lost and that the only sensible course is to turn tail.
Podhoretz even invokes Paine’s most famous and melodramatic passage in order to bathe himself and fellow chest-beating neocons with courageous and revolutionary glory even as their dream crumbles:
They are, he memorably wrote, "the times that try men’s souls," the times in which "the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot" become so disheartened that they "shrink from the service of [their] country."
To Podhoretz, what is happening today to the poor, increasingly lonely patriots like him is exactly what happened to Paine and his fellow revolutionaries:
Tom Paine grew so disgusted with "the mean principles that are held by the Tories," with the hypocrisy of the disguised Tories, and with the shrinking from hardship of the summer soldiers and the sunshine patriots of 1776-7 that he finally gave up trying to persuade them:
"I have been tender in raising the cry against these men, and used numberless arguments to show them their danger, but it will not do to sacrifice a world to either their folly or their baseness."
And so, "quitting this class of men . . . who see not the full extent of the evil that threatens them," Paine turned "to those who have nobly stood, and are yet determined to stand the matter out," and rested his hopes on them.
Poor Norm Podhoretz. With his revolutionary zeal and noble dedication to the "liberation" of Iraqis, he sees (as usual) what so few others can see -- that we are on the road to glorious victory
And with this, we arrive at the real goal of the essay: to shift blame for the failures in Iraq away from Norm and his friends who urged this war in the first place -- and away from their followers in the Government who planned it horrendously -- and onto, ironically enough, opponents of the war. It is these anti-war critics, Norm tells us, who - despite no having control over any parts of the Government - are the ones who are somehow "pulling off the proverbial feat of snatching an American defeat from the jaws of victory."
The litany of Great Things in Iraq which Podhoretz cursorily trots out -- in a way that makes it seem like he is almost boring himself rather than just his readers -- is by now mind-numblingly familiar: schools are being built, we’ve paved some roads, bonds are being traded, and, of course, we get to hear the Grand Neocon Tale of how the people put purple ink on their fingers. These things are recited as though any of it even mitigates, let alone overrides, the not-so-great things which Norm’s war has unleashed: little things like the sectarian civil war, great and dangerous regional instability, a new Al Qaeda operating ground, the destruction of American credibility, government-sponsored death squads, Abu Grahib, a whole new image of the U.S. as Grand Torturers in black prisons, and a bloody conflict from which the U.S. seemingly has no honorable or constructive exit.
And, by the way, Norm also wants us to know that we haven’t actually made any real mistakes in Iraq, and if we did, they pale in comparison to the mistakes we made in World War II and other wars. And the casualties aren’t really a big deal either, because the number of American dead (just a couple thousand, with another 15,000 seriously maimed) is so much lower than it was for other wars, so only someone feigning concern about the lives of American soldiers -- rather than someone who has genuine concern -- would use the growing number of body bags and severed American limbs as an argument to oppose the war.
Norm does not even think that it’s a big deal -- at all -- that the war planners seemed to have had no idea that we would be fighting a formidable and vicious insurgency, and thus made no plans to do so:
As for the insurgency, even if its dimensions had accurately been foreseen, it would still have been impossible to eliminate it in short order. To cite Eliot Cohen himself:
"If the insurgencies in Northern Ireland, Israel/Palestine, Sri Lanka, and Kashmir continue, what reason do we have to expect this one to end so soon?"
So Podhoretz here is dismissive of the complaint that the U.S. failed to realize we would be fighting an insurgency because, so says Podhoretz, it would have made no difference if we had realized it, because we can’t contain them anyway. But surely we would be in a much better position had we planned for it, and more importantly, perhaps we would have thought differently about whether to wage this war -- meaning perhaps we wouldn’t have waged it at all -- if we realized that we would be in the grim, protracted conflict we are now in rather than floating on the glorious victory parades celebrating the "cakewalk" we were promised by Podhoretz’s friends.
This quite emotional essay by Podhoretz contains a glimpse of almost every defining neocon trait – an audacious willingness to depict reality exactly the opposite from what it is, snide dismissals of anything which stands in the way of The Great Neocon Wars (U.S. military deaths, the disappearance of U.S. credibility, a complete relinquishing of U.S. values) and, most prominently, a total contempt for the truth.
Thus, to Podhoretz, it does not matter if we entered the war on false pretenses about WMD’s because the war is still a good thing. It does not matter if we failed to plan for - and failed to disclose - that we would be trapped in a years-long insurgency war because there was nothing we could do about it anyway. It does not matter if far more soldiers have been maimed and killed, and far more will be, than we ever thought. In fact, he’s sick of " the relentless harping on American casualties by the mainstream media." And, most of all, nobody should point out the bad things happening in Iraq because to do so is to turn people against the war project and prevent more Middle Eastern countries from being attacked.
It is not hard to see what is happening here. Everyone knows who is responsible for bringing America into this war. And anyone can see that we were brought to this war based on assumptions and promises which turned out to be wholly false. A day of reckoning for the responsible parties is inevitable, and it’s likely coming sooner rather than later. As a result, I can’t say I blame Norm Podhoretz & Company for flailing around trying to insist, even now, that things have gone great in Iraq - better than expected even - and that we are on the verge of victory. Or that, in the alternative, if things don’t end up so great in Iraq, it’s everyone else’s fault except theirs.
This essay, like so much of what the neocons say and do these days, is an act of self-defense and self-preservation. They were so eager to get America into this war that they didn’t care, at all, what methods they used to get us here or what consequences would ensue once it started. The consequences – for the U.S. and for them – are lurking around the corner. And they know that. And that’s why we’re reading increasingly strident and blame-shifting essays like this one from
"The reporters and their editors in the mainstream media have been working overtime to show how badly things have been going for us in Iraq" (because they keep talking about the civil war and police stations blowing up and U.S. torture holes instead of the latest girl in Basra to get chocolate from a nice Marine).
ReplyDeleteThat is perfectly foul of you. Peddling that this is the only benefit your country has brought about in Iraq is what is delusionsal. Purple fingers? A grateful Iraqi President?
Schools reopening? A constitution adopted? Trials per the rule of law? (They are insisting on trials and due process in the face of serious risk.)
Do you think we should leave, right now? Because that is what all of your overwrought attacks on the war and its supporters are feeding. Are you willing to assume the consequences of that because, you know, it would merely mean the end of all the lollipop dispensing?
Peddling that this is the only benefit your country has brought about in Iraq is what is delusionsal. Purple fingers? A grateful Iraqi President?
ReplyDeleteSchools reopening? A constitution adopted? Trials per the rule of law? (They are insisting on trials and due process in the face of serious risk.)
A Constitution which mandates that no laws contravene Islamic law? A government which, if it can survive at all in our absence, is sure to be infinitely closer to the actual danger in the Middle East - Iran - than it will be to the U.S.? The tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and even more maimed for life?
Unless this war ends up on balance promoting U.S. interests in some way, all the re-opened schools and nice courthouses and purple fingers won't even come close to justifying the war we are still waging. We didn't wage this war to re-open Iraqi schools - it was supposedly done to make the U.S. safer. Any arguments offered in favor of the war which don't demonstrate that might pull on heart strings, but it actually does nothing to justify the war.
Do you think we should leave, right now?
No, we have no right to leave now. We have the obligation - to ourselves first and foremost - to clean up the heinous, extremely dangerous mess we have created in that country. But at some point if it turns out that our presence there really is hindering rather than aiding that goal, then we have the absolute obligation to leave regardless of whether Norm Podhoretz's pipe dreams are fulfilled yet.
Because that is what all of your overwrought attacks on the war and its supporters are feeding. Are you willing to assume the consequences of that because, you know, it would merely mean the end of all the lollipop dispensing?
This is the one argument I just can't take. Do you actually think the American citizens are supposed to lie about their views or keep their mouths shut if they think the war is going very badly and that we are fucking things up on a massive scale - all because dissent of this sort somehow undermines our war effort?
The reality is that a vast majority of the population - including a huge portion of Democrats - WERE behind the President for a long time with this war, and only started abandoning it when they saw how dishonest and poorly managed the whole thing has been.
To blame THEM for its failures, rather than the people who actually caused it to fail, is exactly what Podhoretz is attempting, and it is THAT which I find truly foul.
Glenn: It is foul to, as you repeatedly have, state that the only benefit our troops are providing in Iraq is that they hand out confections to tots. This soldier and others like him are risking their lives to save children. It is doubtful that they, and their family memebrs, reading incessant rhetoric about their being simply the Candy Man would well receive such glib dismissals of their undertakings.
ReplyDeleteThe Iraqi constitution is not what I would prefer: neither is the one we had in 1790 or after the ratification of the BOR. Women didn't vote; slavery was accommodated; the several states were permitted to establish religion; there is still no general right of privacy that would preclude the state from regulating what I take into my own body. Many Western democracies today have severely crippled free speech with laws against saying anything "hateful" about anyone.
The Iraqi constituition is a political compromise, much as ours was when it accepted slavery but put a limit on the time permitted for the further importation of slaves (but allowed us to grow our own). England and Denmark, for example, have established state churches.
The provision mandating non-contravention of Islamic law is vague -- it says something like only generally accepted notions of Islamic law, but the same document also adopts Western standards of human rights. No doubt there will be an interesting period of jurisprudential reconciling of these provisions. The perfect ought not be made the enemy of the good.
Iran is, indeed, a danger. But so was Saddam's Iraq. There are a lot of Muslim countries that are hostile to the West and who tyrannize their own people. Undiluted and unnunaced criticism of our foreign policy and military efforts simply does do harm in this ongoing context. You and everyone are free to dissent, but it should be undertaken with a sober seriousness and care for balance.
In any event, dissent is one thing; there is, and always has been for every war, a loyal opposition. Then there is the other kind. Trivializing the burdens and sacrifices -- and sometimes sheer heroics -- of our troops smacks of the other kind.
My point is: I know very well that you are not anti-American. I further am absolutely certain you do not hope for a U.S. defeat in the ME. But I also know you have such antipathy to neocons, as demonstrated in your posting, that your rhetoric about the war in general is sometimes difficult to distinguish from voices of dissent who deserve contempt.
This post, like many before it, assumes that things are going terribly in Iraq. On what basis, and pursuant to which metrics, does this assumption lie?
ReplyDeleteDo we really know the state of progress in Iraq? Have things really gotten much worse in Iraq these last few months, or is that feeling, in fact, really just a reflection of Bush's vulnerability and unpopularity right now and the opposition capitalizing on that after years of impotency?
We can point to mistakes and bad moments, just as easily as we can highlight good moments and progress. Isn't it fair to say that we're still in the middle of this thing?
David, those are very good questions. There is little doubt that things are not all peachy in Iraq. It is a nation that spent 30 years under a brutal tyranny, and there is almost no experience of civilized political behavior and rule of law. Peaceful transitions of power are nearly unknown.
ReplyDeleteWhen the USSR collapsed, all did not become enlightened and pacific. In Russia, there was, and still largely is, a deficit in that all-important quantity: the rule of law. A mafia essentially runs the country. Putin is not exactly Jefferson.
Iraqi bloggers can provide interesting insight into conditions in that country -- and the very fact that they are free to blog is of stark importance. Of course, those who do are self-selected and generally are well-educated, English-speaking people who tend to be schooled in Western concepts of human rights, and to support them. So with that caveat given, it is worthwhile to read what they say.
Allawi recently announced that the Shia have established a reign of terror that is no better than conditions under Saddam. At Iraq the Model the Baghdad blogger writes:
[Allawi] said that human rights violation are as bad as they were in Saddam’s time, another controversial accusation that is better taken with a grain of salt since it’s election season
But the same blogger also has described the murders of some of Allawi's political comrades, and writes of the upcoming election:
There remains one big concern that is fraud and manipulation or intimidation of voters. These things-unfortunately-happen in almost any election process with varying levels and it would be naïve to claim that there was no fraud or intimidation back in January but we weren’t that worried about that then since the government was going to rule for only 6 months. This time the elections are about electing a government that will stay for four years, and this government will literally decide the direction where new Iraq will be heading.
The international community has to rise up to the level of the responsibility this time and has some guts to be actively involved in monitoring the elections…well, that’s if the world really cares about peace and democracy in this country.
Anyway, I am still optimistic about the future and although I do not think the next election alone can fulfill our ambitions but our people and our democracy matures a little more with every step like this.
More interesting still is this from Ibn Al Rafidian who seems essentially to be begging for quasi-colonialism:
What we need for some time is a non-Iraqi rational, civilized, democratic power to support formation of new culture which respects man, helping this culture to take root in Iraq. The middle class has been crushed by Saddam regime and it is very essential to help it to grow again.
I think that is right, but doubt that the left, and the Democrats whose primary agenda is to defeat the GOP, would permit it. There would be cries of imperialism and claims that the Iraqi govt is a craven puppet of the U.S. (Some of which we've already heard, along with moonbat speculation that the dentists at Iraq the Model are CIA operatives.)
In conclusion, I think your speculation is right; we are in the middle of this thing. But there has been significant progress.
In any event, dissent is one thing; there is, and always has been for every war, a loyal opposition. Then there is the other kind. Trivializing the burdens and sacrifices -- and sometimes sheer heroics -- of our troops smacks of the other kind.
ReplyDeleteWhenever someone suggests that those who criticize the war are somehow engaged in some sort of immoral, unpatriotic act, they always go to great lengths to say how much they value dissent and how great it can be when it's of the "loyal" kind, but that there are two kinds of anti-war dissent - a good kind and a bad kind.
The problem is that, for people who equate anti-war criticism with anti-Americanism, nobody who offers up vigorous anti-war criticism ever seems to fit into the category of "good kind of dissent". It seems to exist only in theory - something that is pointed to in order to pretend that the person isn't trying to stifle dissent.
Who is against the war who is offering up the good kind of loyal opposition? Is Howard Dean an example of the good kind of opposition? Who is?
Here is what David Frum said about this question
-- in the course of saying how there are two kinds of dissent (good and bad) while, of course, putting the people he was attacking in the "bad kind" category:
There is more than one way to wage the war on terror, and thoughtful people will naturally disagree about how best to do it, whether to focus on terrorist organizations like al-Qaeda and Hezbollah or on states like Iraq and Iran; and if states, then which state first?
That's what Howard Dean has been doing from the first second he spoke on Iraq - saying that he is against the war because it's a diversion of resources and attention from the fight we should be having against Al Qaeda.
Lots and lots of people who are against the war think that. Are those people engaged in loyal dissent or the kind which makes the troops sad and gives aid and comfort to our enemies?
As far as I'm concerned, the reason we are in the mess we're in in Iraq is because these neocons wanted to oust Saddam Hussein so badly that they said and did anything to get what they wanted --consequences, ethics and everything else be damned. The LAST people we ought to be listening to when it comes to what we should do next is them, because they've been wrong about EVERYTHING (and they have a personal interest in proving themselves right).
I can't think of anything more pro-American to do than to point out their wicked ways and urge people not to listen to them about anything.
I'll address the "improvement" issue in David's comment tomorrow.
As far as I'm concerned, the reason we are in the mess we're in in Iraq is because these neocons wanted to oust Saddam Hussein so badly that they said and did anything to get what they wanted --consequences, ethics and everything else be damned. The LAST people we ought to be listening to when it comes to what we should do next is them, because they've been wrong about EVERYTHING (and they have a personal interest in proving themselves right).
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, how do you define a "neocon?" Is it only Jews who were at any time Marxists or Democrats? Because of my position on Iraq I've been called a neocon by some, notwithstanding that I'm Irish-Catholic by birth and have never been left-of-center in my life. (Altho some less than sophisticated people have thought that I was.) A friend of mine, a gay-friendly, pro-choice WASP male, who most of his life voted Democratic, voted for Bush in '04 on foreign policy grounds -- is he a neocon?
Second, how is it a "mess" in Iraq in any way that could be laid at the feet of whomever it is that constitutes the cabal of neocons? Specifically, what did they uniquely advocate, where were they wrong, and exactly what demonstrates that they advocated regardless of consequences or ethics?
About dissent. Radley Balko is an example of loyal dissent. Ditto Matt Welch. Pat Buchanan and Robert Novak, too. In the initial movement up to war, so was I -- I greatly feared that Saddam would use WMDs on the troops, or release god knows what on whom, and that it would not be worth it. It was only after that did not happen, in the first few weeks, that I came to fully support the war.
In some regards, you could be characterized as a conservative. It is a bedrock truism of conservatism that ideas have consequences. Not that they should be supressed, but that responsible people should give some thought to what they say and how they say it before contributing to a critical mass that will cause something to happen, or not.
I submit that before a responsible person goes on a crusade to denigrate our efforts in Iraq as a total failure from which no good has or will come, they ought to be very sure of their facts and judgment. I would further submit that a distaste for Norman Podhoretz and Commentary magazine -- a publication I do not read and have come to dislike -- is insufficient moral basis for such a crusade. But I am sure you would insist there is more to it than that, for you.
So perhaps you could set forth what benefit you see to insisting that Iraq is identical in many salient respects to Vietnam and that we have a total mess over there, and what consequences you would hope to bring about by that exercise of your free speech rights, if you were successful in convincing a sufficient majority of the merits of your arguments? Actually, a candid answer to those kinds of questions from any dissident would separate the loyal from the disloyal.
I love how Hypatia names Pat Buchanan as one of the examples of a loyal war opponent. Nobody attacks the motives of neocons more than Buchanan. Every statement he makes is about how the war is only being fought for the benefit of Israel, and the jews are sending the O'Malley's and Hernandez's to die for the jews.
ReplyDeleteIs that supposed to be good for military morale? To make them think they are fighting a war for Israel that Bush got manipulated into waging? Is that a form of good dissent, to say that the President is sending American troops to die for Israel?
Who the hell are Radley Balko and Matt Welch? Outside of them you can only name Buchanan and Novak as patriotic anti-war critics.
That proves Greenwald's point. This whole bullshit of equating anti-war criticism with unpatriotic subversion is really about attacking Democrats and trying to silence any opposition to the war. NOTHING is more disloyal than doing that.
We can point to mistakes and bad moments, just as easily as we can highlight good moments and progress. Isn't it fair to say that we're still in the middle of this thing?
ReplyDeleteThe problem with knowing exactly what is going on in Iraq is the same problem I'm experiencing in trying to learn exactly what wrong in Vietnam - most people have an ideological axe to grind, and what they say is more a function of their ideological goal than it is their true view of what happened (it doesn't mean they are dishonest, just that they see things through a distorting ideological prism).
I think NY Times reporters in Iraq - especially John Burns and Dexter Filkins - are considered objective and informative Iraq sources by both sides.
Their articles have depicted worsening and more uncontrolled sectarian hatred and violence between Shiites and Sunnis. There is what you have to call full-scale civil war in some parts of Iraq. That has clearly gotten worse. And it can only get much, much worse once we are gone.
Then you have Imad Allawi - who we were always told is an honest, reliable, pro-American, stand-up figure (when he was our puppet) - saying that human rights abuses by the Government are now worse than they were under Saddam. And yeah, of course all of the pro-occupation Bush-loving cheerleaders now rush to attack Allawi's motives - he's just a self-interested political hack, etc. etc. But that's the problem - any facts which conflict with the picture people want to see get disregarded via stupid attacks on the messenger.
I highly doubt that Allawi just made up out of whole cloth a fiction about Government death squads. I believe there is a lot to what he has said, even if he is exaggerating for some sort of political gain.
When talking about how Iraq is doing, I'm much less interested in how things are going for Iraqis and much more interested in how things are developing from the perspective of U.S. interests. And what I see is a civil war that is worsening and likely to explode, a Government that is almost certain to be overtly Islamic and highly symapthetic to the greatest Mid-East threat to U.S. interests (Iran), and a society where Al Qaeda is more freely operating than ever and insurgents are able to attack with greater ease than before.
By every metric, things seem to be getting worse, and certainly aren't getting any better. Anyone can find whatever sources they want to support whatever view they want.
There are soliders over there furious that they are there and hate the mission and think it's futile, and there are soliders who worship George Bush and have been inculcated to believe that what they are doing is noble and necessary. Which group you seek out can determine how you see things.
The only reliable - but by no means fool-proof - approach is to gather as many objective sources as possible and assess what is taking place. Like any Ameerican other than the tiny and marginalized Ward Churchill crowd, I want things to work out in Iraq. It will be a disaster if we don't clean up the chaos there. But things don't seem to be working out - quite the opposite - and I refuse to allow anyone to tell me that I have some sort of obligation to pretend otherwise.
Tracy: I am a libertarian, and have long taken the relatively influential magazine Reason, and furthermore have cause to believe that Glenn -- who asked me for examples of loyal opponents to the war -- has looked a time or two at it, and is familiar with its editors and contributors. Matt Welch is one of those, and he opposes the war in Iraq. Ditto for Jesse Walker and a good number of the rest of the Reason staff. Radley Balko is a journalist who travels in the same libertarian circles, and is well known to many of us.
ReplyDeletePat Buchanan long ago morphed into a paleo-conservative, and has been wringing his hands about Israel and its "amen corner" in Congress for over a decade. I suspect he is anti-Semitic, but he is not disloyal to America.
Nor are most Democrats disloyal. They do, however, have a leftist base to pander to that is. Much as the GOP panders to the religious right.
Glenn is quite correct that it is difficult to determine the reality of any foreign policy matter in light of the ideological prism through which both writers and readers dispense and receive information. I am mindful of that in myself, and fully concede that I start from a point of deep skepticism about foreign policy arguments put forth by Democrats. That is because I believe, for reasons of historical fact, that in '72 that party was captured by an anti-American left that, at a minimum, hates to see their own country succeed in any military campaign. They reflexively identify with the enemy. (This is not true of Welch, Walker, Buchanan or Radley Balko.)
In my view, it is in America's interest that Saddam Hussein was deposed and his virulent spawn kept from ascending to the tyrant's throne. Establishing a stable democracy in Iraq in the aftermath is not happening overnight, but it took some 7 years to do it in post-war Japan, and that was without an insurgency. Certainly it has been in our long-term interest for Japan to be a stable democracy, even if their legal order and culture are not the same as ours.
The difficulty of bringing about a stable democracy is a separate issue from whether removing Saddam and bringing a democracy about was a sound idea in the first place. We did not remove the Taliban and then just leave the Afghanis to flop around in chaos; indeed, we are still there. If events there had been as rocky as they are in Iraq -- and many on the left (not prominent Democrats) shrieked about Vietnam and quagmires before we invaded -- would removing the Taliban have been the wrong thing to do?
Last night I saw Jack Murtha interviewed on Fox. It is clear he passionately believes that leaving Iraq now would cause greater, not less, stability there, and he set forth pragmatic, sensible reasons in support of that view. A friend yesterday sent me an article in the Atlantic that fleshes out that position, and it is worth considering. (It is a subscription only article.)
But I'd also want to know what our generals and the Iraqi govt think. An election pends in Iraq, and after that, if they deem that we should be out pronto, that our presence now inflames more than it assists, then we should leave.
Finally, Glenn, no one, and certainly not I, thinks you should have to keep silent about your dissent from Bush's policy in Iraq; I think I've made my point about the manner which I find objectionable. But if you ever thought it was a good idea to liberate that country -- and you suggested in a comment somewhere here that you tilted that way at one point -- then it would be odd for you to oppose the policy per se now, to claim it cannot be in the U.S.'s interests -- just because the campaign has proven more problematic than Afghanistan's.
Hypatia, I would like to respond to your comment:
ReplyDelete"...it is in America's interest that Saddam Hussein was deposed.."
I often see this meme expressed in various forms, including the one expressed by President Bush as "would it be better if Saddam were still in power?
What gets my goat is that most of these formulations express this thought out of context is if therewereno other consequences or costs of this choice.
The question I pose is whether we could have furthered our national interests in other ways (rather than attacking Iraq) that would not have cost us so much in blood, treasure, and national prestige.
And I believe we could have. So it's not simply a question of whether we are better off with Saddam in or out of power; it's the entire set of tradeoffs and consequences that come with each choice.
I remember clearly our situation right before the invasion started.
Not only were international inspectors scouring the country essentially unmolested, but Saddam was so frightened he was dismantling his missles.
I remember thinking, "Bush is a genius; he's got this guy so rattled he's dismantling his own weapons on the eve of an invasion". I thought if Bush uses our power to achieve our objectives without invading we win big. But as soon as we invade we lose big (because of the huge cost and the obvious liklihood of any number of things going wrong - exactly what has happened.
As far as I am concerned, Bush snatched defeat from the jaws of victory
-Devoman (for some reason I can't login to this site)
Hypatia, you said this "That is because I believe, for reasons of historical fact, that in '72 that party was captured by an anti-American left that, at a minimum, hates to see their own country succeed in any military campaign. They reflexively identify with the enemy. "
ReplyDeleteIf that is not an attempt to squash debate, then tell me what is? You have used the un-American trump card. I call bullshit. Dissent is DISSENT. You don't get to decide what is good dissent and what isn't. No one does. That is a guarantee built into the BOR. It's not your call.
Wars suck. ALL wars suck. The only reason for going to war is that the alternatives suck worse. In no way am I convinced, along with apparently a very large portion of the American public, that the alternatives to invading Iraq were all worse evils.
Hell, hypatia, no one even took the time to explore the alternatives, at least the non-nuclear-mushroom-cloud-as-smoking gun alternatives. What we got was fear mongering lies, followed up by nation building.
There are places you can get clues as to how we are doing in Iraq. The Brooking Institute Index has several Iraqi polls. Some things are good. Lots and lots of things are bad - much worse than they were under Saddam, and some are much worse than they were a year ago.
I don't think that there is any doubt that if we stay long enough and spend enough - both blod and treasure - that with high liklihood, but not certainty, Iraq could form a stable democracy. What right does any administration have to ask that kind of commitment of the Amercan people, when that people has decided otherwise?
That was just one of the many miscalculations of the Bush administration - that they could get the job done, whatever job it was, before the public got tired of the cost. Time is running out. It isn't the activist dissent, it isn't the "America hating left", it isn't even the dissolute MSM, it is ordinary citizens deciding for themeselves that enough is enough, and the Iraqis will have to solve their own problems. Which is exactly as it should be.
If it is as I say, ordinary people reacing the end of their support, what do you suggest, hypatia? A little brainwashing, more propoganda, quashing more dissent so that dissatisfaction will have no focus?
Had the administration not quashed dissent BEFORE the war, they would not be where they are now. That is the price you pay for not listening to your enemies. They will tell you the truth, whereas your friends will tell you what you want to hear. Unless, of course, you have great friends.
I don't think the President has surrounded himself with great friends.
Jake