But one of the few things that is settled in this process is that whatever else it means to be too radical to be confirmed to the Supreme Court, Robert Bork was too radical, which is why he was overwhelmingly rejected by the Senate and by Americans. Bork has come to set the standard for non-confirmability – he is now the embodiment, the measure, in this country of a nominee whose views are so radical that he is disqualified from serving on the Court.
For that reason, as Alito opponents are starting to highlight, the most significant fact revealed during Alito’s confirmation hearings yesterday, by far, was the extreme praise which Alito heaped on Robert Bork when Alito was already the U.S. Attorney in New Jersey. As uncovered by The Washington Post, Alito, in 1988, did not just say that he supported Bork’s nomination, but also made clear that Bork was his ideal for what a Supreme Court Justice ought to be:
Aron: Do you think Robert Bork should have been confirmed?
Alito: I certainly thought he should have been confirmed. I think he was one of the most outstanding nominees of this century.
Aron: Why? How?
Alito: He is a man of unequaled intellectual ability, understanding of constitutional history, someone who had thought deeply throughout his entire life about constitutional issues and about the Supreme Court and the role that it ought to play in American society.
That is extraordinary praise for someone who was judged too radical to serve on the Supreme Court. And even more strikingly, when asked why he believed Bork was one of the greatest nominees, Alito cited exactly that which compelled the Senate and the country to reject Bork’s nomination: specifically, Bork’s "understanding of constitutional history" and his thoughts "about the Supreme Court and the role it ought to play in American society."
This leads to an obvious and overarching point: If Robert Bork was so far out of the mainstream in 1988 as to be unfit to serve on the Supreme Court, how can Sam Alito be in the mainstream in 2006? Since Alito has cited as his judicial hero someone whom the country overwhelmingly rejected as being too radical, shouldn’t Alito and his allies bear the heavy burden of demonstrating in what material respects Alito differs from Bork?
Alito does not claim that he’s changed his views in any way during his legal career. To the contrary, he’s been a model of consistency and immovability. Nobody suggests that he is anything but the same person as he was in 1988.
The views of Bork which led to his rejection are not obsolete relics of that time period. Quite the contrary; they are urgently relevant to the most critical issues of today. Here, for instance, is what the Senate Judiciary Committee said about Bork's extremist views concerning Executive power:
In extensive writings and congressional testimony over the course of his professional career, Judge Bork has expressed a broad, almost limitless, view of presidential power, particularly with respect to the conduct of foreign affairs, and a correspondingly narrow view of Congress's ability to restrict abuses of that power. The committee believes that, when viewed as a whole, Judge Bork's views on the scope of executive power place him well outside of the mainstream of legal thought, and run directly contrary to the limits on executive power intended by the Framers. . .
Judge Bork's suggestion that the President has the inherent power to ignore such limitations is profoundly troubling. Judge Bork has expressed an exceedingly narrow view of Congress's right to participate in or restrict intelligence activities, even when such activities are conducted in the United States against U.S. residents.
Reasonable people may differ about whether particular intelligence activities are appropriate or inappropriate. But under our constitutional system of checks and balances, Congress simply must have the power to oversee and ultimately to control the ability of the Executive Branch to conduct intelligence operations. In light of the Framers' great concern about the risks presented by concentrated power in the Executive Branch, the committee finds Judge Bork's rejection of congressional limitations on such power particularly disturbing.
The committee believes that Judge Bork's views on the scope of presidential authority are troubling, not merely because those views would impose unprecedented limitations on Congress's ability to curb abuses of presidential power, but because his views in this area are the antithesis of judicial restraint. In the area of executive power, Judge Bork shows little deference to duly enacted legislation and little regard for either the text of the Constitution itself or for the principle of checks and balances that resonates throughout the document.
All this talk about respect for precedent is ironic. One of the very few things that could be called "precedent" with regard to these judicial confirmation hearings is that whatever else "out-of-the-mainstream" means, Robert Bork and his judicial philosophy clearly qualify.
Given that, isn’t it almost self-evident that a person who holds Bork up as his judicial model and lavishly praises Bork’s "understanding of constitutional history" and role of the Court in our society should be presumptively viewed as being too radical as well? At the very least, Alito should bear the heavy burden of demonstrating that he is, in material respects, a different jurist than the Robert Bork who was resoundingly condemned by the country and the Senate as being far too radical to be confirmed.
Two final points:
(1) The fact that Alito claims that he followed Supreme Court precedent when he was a lower court judge says nothing about how radical and aggressive he will be in overturning precedents once he is on the Supreme Court. Nobody suggested that Bork had failed to follow Supreme Court precedents when he was an appellate judge.
The concern that led to Bork’s rejection was that once he was on the Supreme Court -- and, for the first time, had the power to overrule Supreme Court precedents -- he would then be guided by his radical judicial philosophy to overturn some of the most important and settled cases safeguarding Americans’ basic liberties. That is the same concern about Alito, and as was true for Bork, nothing in his history as a lower court judge can assuage that concern.
(2) Alito’s defenders and the media have made much out of Alito’s stated belief in stare decisis and his agreement to uphold the rule of law, as though those statements prove that Alito is in the judicial mainstream. Here are the first three paragraphs of Bork’s opening statement to the Judiciary Committee – the very first words he spoke at his hearing:
The judge's authority derives entirely from the fact that he is applying the law and not his personal values. That is why the American public accepts the decisions of its courts, accepts even decisions that nullify the laws a majority of the electorate or of their representatives voted for.
The judge, to deserve that trust and that authority, must be every bit as governed by law as is the Congress, the President, the state governors and legislatures, and the American people. No one, including a judge, can be above the law. Only in that way will justice be done and the freedom of Americans assured.
The past, however, includes not only the intentions of those who first made the law, it also includes those past judges who interpreted it and applied it in prior cases. That is why a judge must have great respect for precedence. It is one thing as a legal theorist to criticize the reasoning of a prior decision, even to criticize it severely, as I have done. It is another and more serious thing altogether for a judge to ignore or overturn a prior decision. That requires much careful thought.
What Bork said is almost verbatim what Alito said yesterday. That's because everyone can and does recite these cliches. Every judge, including the most radical such as Bork, believe that they are correctly applying the law and promise to have respect for precedent. But the Bork hearings already established the principle that the mere fact that a nominee comes in and pledges allegiance to stare decisis and the rule of law is meaningless. Reciting a belief in following the law is an obvious prerequisite just to get into the confirmation door, but it is not even close to being sufficient to prove that one should be confirmed to the Supreme Court.
What determines that is whether a nominee's judicial philosophy is sufficiently in the mainstream to allow confirmation. For Alito, that examination must start with his identification of Robert Bork as his judicial model.
Bork = Alito. I have been saying and really think it's all we should be focusing on.
ReplyDeleteI think a big problem yesterday is that there was no coordination among the Dem. Senators. They need to pick one or two themes and hammer them together.
ReplyDeleteBork-Alito has to be one - Bork scares people. Alito must be tied to him. How hard can it be given Alito's own statement??????
The problem with your argument is that there was NOTHING radical about Bork, only conservative. Same with Alito. People back then wanted to try to equate a judicial conservatism with judicial extremism. That worked to defeat Bork. We won't let it work again. Sorry - bark up another tree.
ReplyDeleteI think if Republicans want to re-argue the Bork nomination, then they should say so. Either that, or explain why Alito is not Bork.
ReplyDeletePersonally, my opposition to Alito comes from what I know will be his extremist views on deference to Executive power. One way I know this is that he's cut from the same ideological cloth as Bork is, who was about as extreme as it gets on that issue.
If anything, that issue is more critical now than it was in 1988. So, fine, you think that Bork should have been confirmed and so, too, should Alito? Then argue that.
It's why I think that the burden lies with Alito's proponents to either say that (a) he is not Bork or (b) he is Bork but should still be confirmed.
Great post. Seriously good stuff. You are absolutely right Glenn - Alito's supporters should either tell us why he isn't like Bork (better yet HE should tell us why he was wrong to pimp for Bork in 1988) OR Alito supporters should make the case why Bork or nominees like Bork should be confirmed (better yet HE should tell us why Bork should have been confirmed).
ReplyDeleteIf the right wants to rehash the Bork hearings I say - bring it on baby. If they really think that's a winning strategy why not have Bork testify on his behalf? Or how about having Bork (rather than ostensibly pro-choice Christie Todd Whitman)introduce him? How about some ads where the morph Alito into Bork?
When the time comes for the oppostion to speak in the Senate about Alito, do you think a single one of them will make the direct, unvarnished comparison you have made here between he and Bork? I doubt it. I think the author is absolutely right to point to this unflattering comparison, but I doubt the opposition will speak so clearly.
ReplyDeleteThis is the clearest, easiest-to-understand and most persuasive case I've heard yet against Bork. Someone with connections please send this to someone on the Committee. Each of them should spend at least some time demanding that he explain how he is different than Bork, or reading from the Committee's report saying what bad views Bork had and asking Alito to embrace or reject them.
ReplyDeleteHe would just waffle. He's been coached to get the job, not to speak the truth.
ReplyDeleteHe was running away from Bork as fast as he could yesterday...
Roe + Bork~Executive Power = Filibuster
ReplyDeleteYou did a persuasive job of trying to equate Alito with Bork, but your piece is logically flawed.
ReplyDeleteIt is flawed because you are starting with the presumption that Bork's views were radical. They were not. You have not argued persuasively that Bork's views were indeed radical. What you have done is regurgitated the liberal bias against Bork at the time, and used that as a starting point for your spurious argument. Your starting point is incorrect, and therefore it logically follows that your entire piece is subsequently logically flawed. Bork was a conservative, and that was his only "fault" in the eyes of the liberals. When Bork had to go through those hearings, it was a period when the liberals and the left in America had a lot of power, in the media and in government, which they used to distort the truth and dictate the discourse in the country. If you haven't noticed, things have changed a lot since then. The country has moved to the right. Conservative values are now considered the mainstream, while liberal and lefty values are considered extremist. And while the East Coast media institutions like the New York Times are still populated by liberals and lefties, we conservatives have news outlets of our own, like Fox news, to combat the liberal bias in mainstream media. So the kind of dishonest scare-tactics and fear-mongering you are using in this piece will not work this time around.
The Republicans dominate the executive and legislative branches of the government, and that didn't happen by chance. Americans voted them in. Elections have consequences, and this is one of them. Of course Bush is going to select a conservative judge. If Democrats and the liberals want liberal judges, you have to start winning elections. But thankfully, that isn't going to happen anytime soon. Even when you had a lot of power in the media and in government, the left and liberals always had difficulty in trying to push their anti-religious, pro-abortion agenda through the legislative process. The judiciary, through activist judges, was the only way you could accomplish that. Now, even that is gone. It is the final nail in the coffin of liberalism and lefty values. The American people have voted, and they have decided what they want. Your dishonest tactics aren't going to change anything.
But please.. do continue churning out illogical and dishonest pieces like these in the vain hopes that you will make any difference. You liberals are powerless and impotent this time.. and can do nothing else. Unlike Bork, who was derailed by the liberal media and the Democrats, Alito will be confirmed this time, and you can do nothing about it.
So the kind of dishonest scare-tactics and fear-mongering you are using in this piece will not work this time around.
ReplyDeleteShould this Alito = Bork meme gain any traction, this is what Alito should do.
He should haul out the press releases and scare ads that were saying, e.g., Robert Bork would virtually return the nation to Jim Crow. Alito should swear, under oath, that he would do no such thing. He should contrast himself in every way with the things that were said about Bork, rather than what Bork himself believed and stated.
Glenn - you make some excellent points from a tactical perspective. Should Dems push the Alito-Bork comparison, rather than Alito-Scalia, I think it would prove an effective strategy. Still, its worth pointing out how depressing it is that these are the tactics we must resort to. After all, all of us here know that the differences between Bork and Scalia are mainly those of style: in matters of jurisprudence, they are virtually indistinguishable. Dido for Thomas. All three are extreme, particularly in their deference to executive power (see Hamdi, Rasul). Yet somehow, in the acid-trip that is public opinion, only Bork is the consensus nut, while Scalia is placed just right of center and Clarence swims squarely in the mainstream. Such is the lazy-eye of our media elite.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I fully endorse your proposed comparison, and hereby propose the moniker "SCABORKO" for all future discussion of the nominee. Scaborko. I get scared just typing it. Honestly, let's see Judy Woodruff tell her audience that "Scaborko deserves an up or down vote" - one mention of him on the Situation Room will have all our nation's children crying in fear.
Silverbird5000 writes:Still, its worth pointing out how depressing it is that these are the tactics we must resort to. After all, all of us here know that the differences between Bork and Scalia are mainly those of style: in matters of jurisprudence, they are virtually indistinguishable. Dido for Thomas.
ReplyDeleteDepressing that these are the tactics you must resort to? I should think so, since they cannot work this time around.
I'm not always grateful for Fox News, but the NYT and the (formerly) Big Three Networks no longer dictate the political narrative. Between Fox and the blogosphere, borking cannot succeed.
Sorry for the long post, but... Bush_is_Right is nuts.
ReplyDeleteIn 1987 I was too young to pay attention to politics so I can't speak from personal experience, but your comment seemed ridiculous, so I did some really simple Googling. I found this. Here are some quotes from Bork, and that blogger's opinions of him.
"Every clash between a minority claiming freedom and a majority claiming power to regulate involves a choice between the gratification of the two groups...why is sexual gratification more worthy than moral gratification? [Bork in italics.]
"Well Mr. Bork, the answer to this should be quite obvious, it seems to me. The first requires only that an individual control their own actions, while the second requires that they use the power of the state to control the actions of others...
And Bork has another, quite disturbing, answer:"
"No activity that society thinks immoral is victimless. Knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral."
"But as Randy Barnett has pointed out, such a standard literally removes all possible constraints from what government can and cannot do. If the government may justly decide that it can prohibit behavior solely because "society" thinks it to be immoral, then all they have to do is declare something to be immoral and they have justified whatever legal coercion is necessary to prevent that action. But in Bork's world, if a right is not explicitly stated in the Constitution, the state may do as it wishes..."
If you think that Bork's opinions there, and others that Brayton quotes, are normal and acceptable, then I think you're nuts. This belief of mine is only encouraged by your later statement, "Now, even that is gone. It is the final nail in the coffin of liberalism [emphasis mine] and lefty values. The American people have voted, and they have decided what they want."
Ummm... have fun back in the Dark Ages? I don't see how you can say that the Enlightenment was anything other than liberal. I'd laugh at you if you weren't trying to take us back with you.
I'm not always grateful for Fox News, but the NYT and the (formerly) Big Three Networks no longer dictate the political narrative. Between Fox and the blogosphere, borking cannot succeed.
ReplyDeleteRight - that's why an unbelievably large percentage of Americans continued to believe that Saddam Hussein planned 9-11 right up until the day we invaded Iraq and even thereafter. It's because Fox News, the proliferation of talk radio, and the Internet all make sure that citizens are immune from misleading propaganda.
That's the same reason that many of those same people thought that Michael Schiavo had bashed in his wife's skull and then tried to kill her even though she had active brain activity.
Thank God that Americans are now immunized from politically-motivated propaganda by the emergence of these alternative sources.
After all, all of us here know that the differences between Bork and Scalia are mainly those of style: in matters of jurisprudence, they are virtually indistinguishable. Dido for Thomas.
ReplyDeleteI would say a major likely substantive difference between Bork and Justice Scalia comes from Bork's embrace of the unitary executive. One needs only to read Justice Scalia's fiery opinion in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld to see what Justice Scalia thinks of the notion of essentially unlimited executive power. Now, the same decision would seem to illustrate that Bork and Thomas are soulmates on this matter, since Thomas found nothing wrong with unilateral executive actions that Justices Scalia and Rehnquist couldn't stomach. (To the credit of his memory, Justice Rehnquist was a firm believer in the judiciary as a full partner in the check-and-balance system; he obviously didn't believe that Presidents Jefferson or Madison should have had Justice Marshall impeached or executed.) What Thomas and Alito have in common, of course, is saying what they think they need to in order to be confirmed. And just in case anyone starts waving around the "Ginsburg precedent," Justice Ginsburg answered questions about abortion and the right to privacy at length.
So there's an answer to the old "boo-hoo-hoo, honest conservative Robert Bork was robbed" canard. Bork's established stances on executive power put him over the line drawn by Justices Rehnquist and Scalia. This did not make Bork a serious conservative who was slandered by a Democratic Senate that later overwhelmingly approved Scalia; this made Bork a danger of the sort outlined in the Federalist Papers. If Alito truly shares the disturbing unitary executive viewpoint, he is also too radical to sit on the Supreme Court.
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."--Madison, Federalist 47
Funny how that used to be quoted to attack, e.g., EPA regulations, by some of the same people who now believe that the President is free to reinterpret and nullify laws and Constitutional precepts at will. Of course, many of those same people also defended Bork.
--mds
It's because Fox News, the proliferation of talk radio, and the Internet all make sure that citizens are immune from misleading propaganda.
ReplyDeleteThat's the same reason that many of those same people thought that Michael Schiavo had bashed in his wife's skull and then tried to kill her even though she had active brain activity.
Thank God that Americans are now immunized from politically-motivated propaganda by the emergence of these alternative sources.
As I said, I'm not always grateful. But the fact is, in those areas where the old media drove me insane, they cannot do so any longer, at least not nearly as effectively. (And now the right media can outrage me, too, and did so totally in the Schiavo lunacy.)
Robert Bork could not, today, be borked. And I like it that way; the left no longer controls the spin, and sometimes that is a very good thing.
Bush_is_Right,
ReplyDeleteYou might be right that the center of the country has shifted since the Bork nomination - certainly, a lot of things that were "out of the mainstream" in 1988 (domestic spying, Elliot Abrams, The Cure) have made major comebacks in recent years. However, as a supporter of Alito and the judicial philosophy he espouses, the harder question you need to answer is this: are America's mainstream values today as conservative as they were, say, in 1972, a year before Roe, when the majority of states prohibited abortion even for victims of rape and incest; or 1953, the year before the Warren Court overturned Plessy's originalist interpretation of the 14th Amendment and the de jure segregation that went with it; or in 1905, when the Court in Lochner ruled that even the most basic regulation of the employment contract was unconstitutional? It is one thing to claim victory in the War on Christmas or other culture-war skirmishes from yesterday's news cycle; but to argue that an Alito Court, standing opposed to almost a century of social progress - from civil rights to the minimum wage - would even remotely reflect America's current mainstream values is just downright absurd. Even stripped-searched with a machine gun, the core liberal values of this country will not be undone, by Alito or any other wingnut. To believe otherwise is just wishful thinking.
This was Ted Kennedy during the Bork confirmation hearings: "Robert Bork's America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids, children could not be taught about evolution."
ReplyDeleteAnd it worked; left-wing activists put out similarly-themed ads and the media ran with that crap; the public became terrified that Robert Bork was a racist and fascist.
Can’t do that anymore. I’ve never followed or linked to anything in Freeperville before, but that assessment pretty well captures what has changed.
anonymous-
ReplyDeleteThanks for correcting me on the Scalia-Hamdi point, though his dissent in Rasul was far less encouraging, if memory serves.
You're right that, should Alito fall more in the Bork/Thomas mold on these issues, his may be an even more feckless check on executive power in wartime. You are also right that, like Thomas, he is a stealth candidate. As my prof. Bob Gordon recently wrote over at TPM cafe, it would be nice to have a nominee like Luttig who at least wears his deference on his sleave (or at least his Fourth Circuit opinions).
"Robert Bork's America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids, children could not be taught about evolution."
ReplyDeleteWell, let's see: Bork is hostile to Roe v. Wade, prior to which abortion was illegal in many states, leading to back-alley abortions; Bork is a "strict constructionist" and "originalist" who therefore sides with Plessey v. Ferguson over Brown v. Board of Education, the latter of which led to desegregation of lunch counters; and Bork and Alito have demonstrated a lack of concern for overreach by law enforcement, and certainly seem to believe that federal law enforcement can break down your door in midnight raids and detain you at the whim of the executive.
Now, on the other hand, I think the statement about children being forbidden to learn about evolution is over the top; schools might be able to ban "Darwinism" in a Bork America, but children could always learn about it at home or church.
--mds
mds: Bork should be hostile to Roe; it is intellectually vacuous crap. In 1973, the states were moving to liberalize abortion laws. In 2006, and if Roe were overturned tomorrow, almost every state would have abortion legal in at least the first trimester. But more to the point, there is nothing in the Constitution which dictates how the several states should legislate in the area of abortion.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are absolutely wrong about Bork and Plessey v. Ferguson vis-a-vis Brown v. Board of Education. Of all the things claimed about him, that accusation most angered Bork. He had some philosophical disagreement with some of the rationale in Brown, but would have reached the same result for somewhat different reasons.
And if you think most Americans would object to balancing evolution with the nonsense that is "Intelligent Design," well, please do push that about Alito. Most Americans support that silliness, and so screeching about evolution would only inure to Alito's benefit.
Bork's biggest sin was actually engaging in an attempted intellectual discourse of issues with the Democratic Senators, who for themselves were only interested in sound bites, slander, and spin, and then he had the temerity and gaul of looking like an kind of eccentric professor.
ReplyDeleteRepublicans were caught asleep at the switch and didn't think democraps would lie and slander a decent, thoughtful, and honest jurist solely for political purposes. Of course they were wrong. They haven't been caught off guard since, and nominees show up clean shaven for the cameras.
An observation I posted earlier today on JunkYardLawDogs
Watching The Bloated Void Surrounded By A Sphincter Muscle (i.e Ted Kennedy)
Is it just me or is there something particularly obscene about watching a murderer and serial abuser of women taking to task anyone (much less the highly ethical and widely supported by all of both parties who know him Judge Alito) about respect for women's rights and ethics.
At some point you just want to stand up and shout at the top of your voice, he didn't MURDER any women Senator!!!!!!!!!!
Says the "Dog"
Bork's claim that he would have reached the same conclusion as Brown is irrelevant, since to say anything else would mean his giving up any chance of a mainstream political life. And when you read his explanation in Tempting, his reasoning is almost laughably ad-hoc, particularly compared to his other exercises in originalist jurisprudence, which at the very least possess the virtue of formal cogency. The real question is, given everything else Bork believes about constitutional interpretation, would he at the time have voted with the majority inBrown, and of course the answer is no. The fact that Bork compromises his own principles of jurisprudence just to "prove" (retroactively no less) that he was a mainstream nominee says nothing about his actual reading of the 14th, and says even less for his intellectual honesty (compare with the admirable Judge Posner, whose adoption reform plan stayed true to Ronald Coase despite killing his chance at the bench);
ReplyDelete"Elections have consequences."
ReplyDeleteThey certainly do! And rigged elections have horrendous consequences! Bush now gets to nominate judges for the very court that chose him. Talk about a closed circle...
mds: Bork should be hostile to Roe; it is intellectually vacuous crap.
ReplyDeleteBut mds was only responding to your disapproving posting of Kennedy's quote about what Bork's America would look like. Other than segregation, you don't seem to think that the statement was inaccurate.
If you (and Bork) believe that Roe was wrongly decided and should be overruled, fine - but then you have to admit that it IS true that with that view, many women would be in a situation where having an abortion is illegal (at least some - and I think A LOT of states would outlaw abortion altogether). It's just true. So how can you object to Kennedy's statement on that ground? It's accurate.
Same with evolution. You yourself acknowledge that Bork opposed constitutionally mandating the teaching of evolution. So what Kennedy said about that is true, too.
You can't, on the one hand, oppose certain constitutional rulings which produced certain results, but then object when people point out that having it your way constitutionally would lead to a reversal of those results.
You can argue that it shouldn't matter, since constitutional analysis shouldn't be results-oriented, but there is nothing inaccurate about pointing out what the results would be.
"Elections have consequences."
ReplyDeleteI love how the same people who keep saying this are the ones who couldn't defeat Bill Clinton in an election and so tried to use their majority status in the Congress to impeach him (never mind the numerous judicial nominees of his they held up).
Even they should hate their own hypocrisy enoguh to stifle the lecture about how elections have consequences.
But mds was only responding to your disapproving posting of Kennedy's quote about what Bork's America would look like. Other than segregation, you don't seem to think that the statement was inaccurate.
ReplyDeleteThat statement was absurd. Aside from the fact that the segregation point was outrageous, Robert Bork would not introduce "rogue police" to break into citizens' homes at midnight. Nor would he prohibit the teaching of evolution.
The opposition to Bork was, first, second and last, about abortion. For those who think protecting Roe is the highest value, the smear job directed at Bork makes sense. But decent human beings should be appalled -- that is no way to conduct either confirmation hearings or civilized discourse in a republic of fair-minded citizens and statesmen.
If they wanted to stop Robert Bork because of his position on Roe, they should have simply said so and done that. But that isn't what they did. It was absolutely filthy, ugly, and anyone who thinks it should be done to Sam Alito -- like the commenter who admits it is depressing, but oh-so-necessary, to resort to such tactics -- should be ashamed of themselves.
I honestly believe the vicious, unrestrained attack on Bork during his confirmation hearings has driven him a bit crazy. He has become far, far more conservative and loathing of the left than he had been before, and I can understand why.
You yourself acknowledge that Bork opposed constitutionally mandating the teaching of evolution. So what Kennedy said about that is true, too.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are far too smart not to know how Kennedy was relying on lay misunderstanding of the law involved and what courts do. Robert Bork would have had nothing to do with forbidding little kids from learning about evolution. He may have believed the states were free to prohibit the teaching of evolution if they chose, but he was depicted as being opposed to teaching evolution and that he somehow would forbid its being taught anywhere.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteClinton was impeached, and for good cause. The Senate decided that the impeachment offense was not sufficient to warrant removal from office. However, he was in fact impeached.
Republicans did NOT deny an up or down vote to any Clinton nominee that had a majority of senators ready, willing, and able to vote for confirmation. Democraps used filibusters to stop an up or down vote for many judges who DID have a majority of senators ready, willing, and able to vote for their confirmation. These two things are NOT as the democraps like to claim similar. They are VERY different.
In the first, all that was denied was the official embarrassment of a vote the negative outcome of which was already known, and in the second it is a procedural device for a tiny minority in the senate to obstruct the senate from performing its constitutional function of advice and consent, which such function only requires a simple majority vote.
These minority of senators actions are in effect unconstitutional because they result in the requirement for a super majority vote that is not contained in the constitution.
Says the "Dog"
"If Bork was too radical for the Court, why isn't Alito?"
ReplyDeleteBecause the fascists are running the show now?
He may have believed the states were free to prohibit the teaching of evolution if they chose, but he was depicted as being opposed to teaching evolution and that he somehow would forbid its being taught anywhere.
ReplyDeleteBut it's almost certainly the case that a RESULT of Bork's jurisprudence would put women in a situation where abortion is criminalized (hence sending those who want them to the "proverbial back alleys") and would have some school districts banning the teaching of evolution.
I agree that those results should not drive the constitutional analysis. But they are factual statements about what would likely occur.
Both sides argue that way - liberal judges will lead to your bibles being taken away, force your kids to learn about homosexuality in elementary school, ensure that they will be subject to lots of pornography, etc.
Not everyone is a constitutional scholar. The courts touch on issues which people feel very passionate about, and both parties manipulate those emotions for political gain. It's just the nature of the process.
He may have believed the states were free to prohibit the teaching of evolution if they chose, but he was depicted as being opposed to teaching evolution and that he somehow would forbid its being taught anywhere.
ReplyDeleteUm, right, which is why I agreed that was the weakest of Senator Kennedy's criticisms. And apparently, a major proponent of the "unitary executive" didn't really have anything to do with that at all. But that's pretty weak, which is obviously why you've decided to focus on the evolution bit, and ignore, e.g., silverbird5000 on the issue of Brown.
Republicans did NOT deny an up or down vote to any Clinton nominee that had a majority of senators ready, willing, and able to vote for confirmation.
How true. Judiciary Committee Chairman Hatch blocked over 60 of President Clinton's nominees from reaching a floor vote, but that's because they wouldn't have been approved by a committee or floor majority. So, why did he block them if they could have simply been voted down?
And of course, Republicans, including Senator Frist, merely attempted to filibuster Richard Paez when his nomination was finally released to a floor vote after being bottled up for years by Senator Hatch. Since it wasn't a successful filibuster, there's no hypocrisy whatsoever.
Y'know, dog, it might be a better use of your talents to go back to the post that rips apart your tired old "72 hours is too short!" Powerline talking point. We sure missed you in that comment thread.
--mds
So, why did he block them if they could have simply been voted down?
ReplyDeleteI previously addressed that. It saves the nominee and the President of an embarrassing defeat, and saves the senators much valuable time for a nominee who does not have majority vote support on an up or down vote on the floor. Spin as you like, that isn't the same thing as a minority of senators preventing a nominee with more than 51% of senators ready, willing, and able to vote for them from being confirmed through an unconstitutional action of a few demagogues in the Senate.
Regarding the 72 hour FISA stuff, I found the incredible level of inexperience and incompetence of those talking through their hats about how easy it would be to complete the applications to not deserve any comment by me. People that dumb and that inexperienced in real world business and professional matters aren't going to ever pull their heads back through their sphincter muscles. I especially enjoyed the comments of the clowns who stated how anyone's expressions they didn't like must be people not working for their money and supported for free somehow by big corporations.
Says the "Dog"
which is obviously why you've decided to focus on the evolution bit, and ignore, e.g., silverbird5000 on the issue of Brown.
ReplyDeleteHe says Bork was lying, that he really would not have voted against separate but equal. I see little value in replying: "he was not." (shrug)
The campaign of distortion and vilification of Robert Bork's views is one of the most shameful episodes in American history. As a consequence, his name has become a verb meaning a slash-and-burn, by any means necessary, destruction of a person's reputation to defeat him -- and at least one commenter here had the honesty to essentially admit it, i.e., that the "tactics" are "depressing."
They are, in fact, repugnant.
Regarding the 72 hour FISA stuff, I found the incredible level of inexperience and incompetence of those talking through their hats about how easy it would be to complete the applications to not deserve any comment by me. People that dumb and that inexperienced in real world business and professional matters aren't going to ever pull their heads back through their sphincter muscles.
ReplyDeleteUh-huh. Well, if a law is burdensome, that is not a reason to violate it. Particularly not when Congress would have given Bush 72 days, had he asked for that amendment in the months after 9/11.
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteI agree, in general, that being burdensome is not a rational for violating the law. I say "in general" because there could be situations where the burdens make compliance impossible and depending upon the interests at stake, such a situation might, in theory, render the law unconstitutional in its application in that specific case.
There are many examples of this kind of thing in abortion law jurisprudence.
I don't agree with regard to FISA the law was violated. I believe that Congress could not limit the President's inherent authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance and the Congress can not criminalize Presidential powers that flow directly from the Constitution. I also believe the Hamdi case stands for the proposition that the AUMF empowers the President to conduct this activity.
Says the "Dog"
Yes, the Bush Junta can be trusted with this power. It's like with torture. We know that they only torture when they must, during critical interrogations, to get information from dangerous men about imminent plots, with the bomb ticking.
ReplyDeleteRead it and weep. Nice, eh, "Dog"? Do you approve of these tactics, too?
Brambling,
ReplyDeleteDuring the cold war the Soviet's said the USA kept political prisoners and our citizen's were abused by our Government; I'm sure Tokyo Rose complained about how USA soldiers and the USA government behaved during WWII; there are many prisoners in USA prisons today who complain they don't get the adult channels on their color cable TV and the lack thereof constitutes torture; and then there is this member of the enemy forces lying about mistreatment at GITMO.
I'm sorry, but I don't listen to any of this crap, and neither does anyone with any reality based perceptions of the world around them. Was this the same guy who said the Koran had been flushed down the toilet at GITMO, as if these islamofascists would let their prisoners have bibles, priests, ministers, crosses, mass performed weekly, kosher food for Jews and rabbi's to pray with.
Save your outrage over the enemy's lies for someone else foolish enough to give them any credence whatsoever.
I'm not giving up my club GITMO STAFF T-Shirt, and if the military needs any more waterboards I'll be happy to provide a donation. Every cell in every secret prison should have one, instead of cable TV.
Says the "Dog"
Nice to see that here every dog can have his day. And good to see that assertions of logical flaws themselves are filled with um logical flaws. Proving a premise requires some evidence, not merely a re statement of the premise.
ReplyDeleteIf Bork is not radical, how is he in mainstream? Present three Bork opinions. Prove the case. Thank you for your contribution to reasoned discussion.
heretik,
ReplyDeleteThanks for pointing out the bizarre non-logic employed by "the dog" so I don't have to.
"the dog" also slanders "Tokyo Rose" without realizing that she DID, in fact, do what she could to further the American effort in World War II. Hers is a fascinating story, actually. That's the problem with wingnuts; they equate talking/writing with research. Just because you write it down, however, that doesn't make it true.
From Wikipedia:
Toguri, for her part, denied during the trial that she had committed treason. Ordered to make propaganda broadcasts along with other prisoners of war, Toguri claimed she and her associates subtly sabotaged the Japanese war effort. The American and Australian prisoners of war who wrote her scripts assured her she was doing nothing wrong and immediately after the war General Douglas MacArthur's staff and the United States Justice Department cleared her of wrongdoing.
Her former supervisors at Radio Tokyo under government pressure gave perjured or otherwise distorted testimony that was instrumental in her conviction.
...
Toguri was fined US$10,000 and given a 10 year prison sentence, of which she served more than six years. D'Aquino appealed her case to the public on the television program 60 Minutes, and was pardoned by outgoing President Gerald Ford on January 19, 1977.
Her story is heartbreaking, too; she had to separate from and ultimately divorce her husband, since he wasn't able to emigrate to the US and she feared not being able to return if she left. Iva Toguri is still alive, and she and her family run a charming Japanese goods store three blocks from my office.
Oh, and by the way, "the dog," STFU.
Heretik,
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing radical about Bork saying, in effect, the constitution says what it means and means what it says.
Says the "Dog"
I don't agree with regard to FISA the law was violated. I believe that Congress could not limit the President's inherent authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance and the Congress can not criminalize Presidential powers that flow directly from the Constitution.
ReplyDeleteWait, so the law wasn't violated, and it's an unconstitutional law that attempts to restrict the President's inherent powers? How does it restrict his actions, if what the President is doing doesn't violate the law? But I suppose FISA could hypothetically be unconstitutional. If only there were another branch of government charged with deciding such Constitutional matters. Oh, right, the executive has that power, too. The President simply ignores laws that he asserts are unconstitutional. Great how those checks and balances work.
I also believe the Hamdi case stands for the proposition that the AUMF empowers the President to conduct this activity.
Right, since Hamdi demonstrated that the President couldn't derive an implied authority to suspend due process from the AUMF, it clearly sets the precedent that the executive can derive whatever powers it chooses from the AUMF. Occasionally, I wonder if you're just some sort of complicated Perl script, dog.
There is nothing radical about Bork saying, in effect, the constitution says what it means and means what it says.
And yet, he uses that philosophy to argue for an executive that need not "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed," and to reject the meaningful existence of unenumerated individual rights provided by the Ninth Amendment. None of fellow originalist Randy Barnett's presumption of liberty for him. On the other hand, he partly blames the 1950s civil rights movement for the moral decline of the United States, which is about as mainstream as one can get.
--mds
mds: I'm a big Randy Barnett fan, but in fairness to Bork, it was pretty mainstream and standard for legal scholars to write off the 9th Am until rather recently. He wasn't alone. It isn't as if there is a huge body of case law applying or interpreting that amendment.
ReplyDeleteIt's only been the last 15-20 years that legal scholars have aggressively been looking to bring life to the 9th. Ed Brayton has an interesting discussion of Barnett and the 9th here.
Must remember not to try to reason with people who have listened to hate radio so long they would feel at home in Oceania.
ReplyDeleteIt's sickening to see America go careening down this well-worn road. We sure could use some decent leadership.
To mds:
ReplyDeleteHamdi also said the AUMF does incorporate to the President the authority to seize and detain enemy combatants indefinitely. Even though those words aren't in the AUMF. The Presidents actions re FISA don't violate the law because 1. Some or all of the actions don't meet FISA definitions, so aren't covered; 2. FISA is unconstitutional to the extent it impinges upon the President's constitutional authority.
To Hypatia:
Great link on Barnett and the 9th. Has the Supreme Court ever decided a case based solely upon the 9th. The 9th was supposed to be the catchall protection of our individual freedoms and the protector of states rights and sovereignty. It therefore would act or could/should act as a limitation upon federal government power. Most judges avoid it like the plague because they aren't into limiting federal government power. The 9th amendment was the only rational basis for hanging all the privacy cases and Roe upon. At least it would be based upon something actually written in the constitution as opposed to pnumbra's, emanations, and aurii.
To Brambling:
I don't listen to hate radio, and you listen to Hate America First and always groups like Amnesty International, the UN, and national Democrapic politicians.
To Iwzthinkin:
You definitely need to stop thinkin so much. Its got you in a highly confused and agitated state. Your comments on my post about how illogical they were, did provide some hilariously funny Ironic entertainment, however.
Says the "Dog"
To Hypatia:
My prior link doesn't seem to work. I'll try again.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of curious why some of our contentious posters don't actually, you know, enlist? How do they justify that to themselves? Can any of you hotshots explain that?
I mean, here we are in a struggle to the death against people who want to "murder us in our sleep and skin our children slowly over a fire." And yet you are content with doing your part by engaging wussie liberals in keyboard combat? (And in a related question, why aren't our fearless leaders' children and relatives out there defending this country, as they would have in every prior war? This is not a rhetorical question.)
During the Vietnam War, people who risked jail for their principles were at least being consistent. On the other hand, people who supported the war but managed to avoid service, not so much.
Fervently supporting a war and yet letting others do your fighting for you - how is that honorable?
Brambling,
ReplyDeleteAsking why someone doesn't enlist makes just as much sense as asking why those who oppose the war don't take up arms against the USA or join the enemy to fight for their perceptions of justice.
We have an all volunteer force. The volunteer force constitutes professional soldiers who *WANT* to be in the military. They have a higher percentage of high school and college grads than during the Vietnam War. Their ranks are not over-represented by poor, disadvantaged, or minorities. They have abundant quantities of white males who believe in serving their country, and did not volunteer because that was the only job they could get. Their unit cohesiveness and moral are much higher than it was during Vietnam, precisely because they are composed of people who believe in duty, honor, country, and weren't *forced* to join the military.
Having a standing army of professional soldiers who volunteered to serve has given us the bravest and best fighting force the world has ever seen. Perhaps that fact is the real problem liberals have with the lack of a military draft. Perhaps they support a draft because it will DEGRADE our fighting abilities.
Instead of worrying about who isn't in the military, show your concern for military personnel and their families by making sure they get to vote and don't have their votes stolen by democrapic lawyers who are more concerned with felons voting than those who actually do something positive for our country.
Says the "Dog"
The Presidents actions re FISA don't violate the law because 1. Some or all of the actions don't meet FISA definitions, so aren't covered;
ReplyDeleteSuch as? Would that be the purely domestic wiretapping that is covered by FISA, or the wiretapping involving a foreign party that is addressed by FISA? FISA even outlines how to handle warrantless wiretapping. It's also interesting that the President, and more specifically his Attorney General, have acknowledged that they weren't complying with FISA. Have you informed them that they're mistaken?
2. FISA is unconstitutional to the extent it impinges upon the President's constitutional authority.
Neither you nor the Executive is empowered to make that determination. The President does not have the constitutional authority to rewrite laws passed by Congress via "signing statements," nor to set them aside as unconstitutional. "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." I'll keep quoting Madison, because I generally prefer his view of the Constitution to yours.
hypatia: Indeed, thanks for the Brayton link. This touches on the whole bit of "government granting rights to the people." We have the right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures, but only as long as the government decides we do. What the Founders granted, the Executive can take away whenever it wants, thanks to an authorization for the use of military force. The judiciary might complain, but they are unelected priests who should accept "the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power", as decided entirely by the President.
--mds
To mds:
ReplyDeleteThat's quite a load of straw you used building those strawmen to argue against.
On FISA doesn't apply by its own words to non-US Persons; doesn't apply if the intercepts are made outside the territorial limits of the USA; I suspect most of the surveillance will be covered by these exceptions. There is a substantial question as to whether FISA applies to the patern matching data mining done by a computer and not a person as well.
Also, I forgot to mention that FISA wasn't violated because of the AUMF authorized the President to do such surveillance.
You are wrong about determining constitutionality of a law. Not only can the President do this, but so can any citizen. If you think a law is unconstitutional then ignore it, and wait for someone to involve a judge for confirmation. Happens all the time.
Nobody is talking about combining all power in the President. That is your two-fer, second strawman in one post. Madison quotes are really nice, just completely inapplicable to anything I've written.
Says the "Dog"
You are wrong about determining constitutionality of a law. Not only can the President do this,
ReplyDeleteQuote the relevant portion of Article II, or cite the relevant Supreme Court cases that assert that the President is free to unilaterally declare laws unconstitutional.
The AUMF stuff has been beaten up here in post after post. You believe that it gives the President license to do whatever he claims is necessary in the war on terror, with no oversight. (No, bypassing the FISA court and retroactively declaring your actions under deep classification to a few Congressmen who have no power to object is not oversight.) And you also go off again with the whole nonsense that the President's actions didn't violate FISA (even though the administration has acknowledged that he did), and besides, the AUMF overrode FISA, even though Congress didn't realize it, since the Patriot Act was later used to amend FISA. So the President is lying to us when he acknowledged he violated FISA, which he was free to violate because the AUMF authorizes any action he wishes, and besides FISA is unconstitutional, because the Executive says so. After all, the President can ignore any law, just like any citizen. It's not like he is in any way specially obligated to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." Well, he is, but only the laws pertaining to grand jury testimony in a personal matter, obviously.
But I'm glad you think Madison's concerns about one branch of government making, executing, and interpreting laws are completely irrelevant. Especially as concerns a President who added a signing statement to the McCain Amendment noting that he didn't feel bound by the law that he was signing, even though the legislative power belongs to Congress, and that the judicial branch is subject to limitations in the matter that he gets to decide. So take the "straw-man" bit up with Mr. Bush. Or look up what "straw-man" means.
--mds