Since that time, replies to my original argument have continued to be posted, including from Ramesh Ponnuru at The Corner, James Taranto at Opinion Journal, and the former Religious Right-activist-turned-ostensible-Democrat Bull Moose. I haven't replied to any of those posts because none of them said anything particularly new that wasn't already subsumed by the other posts to which I did reply. And, none of them was actually willing to opine on whether they believed the dynamic I described was pervasive or even extant, opting instead to nitpick at the margins without venturing an opinion about the argument itself. As a result, there was little to reply to.
But an odd and somewhat alarming development is now prompting me to address a couple of these arguments. The generally well-behaved adult Tom Maguire has spent the last several days frantically jumping up and down, throwing food and crying out for attention -- both on his blog and via e-mail to me -- because he seems to think he has a really impressive reply to my post which I have ignored. For each of the last three days, he has written a series of increasingly childish, amazingly shrill, and attention-demanding rants which purport to reply both to my original post and to a post written about my argument by Peter Daou.
I intended to ignore Tom's antics, but the "argument" he keeps repeating was the same one made in a marginally more constructive way by Ponnuru, Taranto and others. That, combined with the fact that I have been sent multiple links which thoroughly negate the argument, led me to conclude that it would be worthwhile to reply.
To the extent that an argument can be discerned, Tom is claiming (as did Taranto) that the examples I cited of conservatives being labeled "liberal" as a result of anti-Bush blasphemy -- I cited John McCain, Chuck Hagel, George Voinovich, John Sununu, Bob Barr, and Andrew Sullivan -- are, for one reason or another, not really compelling examples of that trend. Tom, as well as Taranto, exhibit a good amount of intellectual cowardice by purposely refusing to say whether they actually dispute the existence of this phenomenon or whether they simply think that I provided insufficiently clear examples of it. But they claim that the examples I provided were poor and that the links I included for these examples did not support the overall claim.
Based on this premise, Tom has issued what he boldly calls his "challenge" -- the "challenge" that he's been claiming I (along with Daou) have been evading. It's this:
OS - if Messrs. Greenwald and Daou, or their supporters, could find real evidence of Cult leaders actually re-labeling Bush critics as "liberal", that would advance this seminal effort and deepen our understanding of this important work.
Let’s see how intellectually honest Maguire and Taranto are. Following are a series of very clear examples of Bush critics having their conservative credentials revoked and/or being branded a "liberal" because they criticize or dissent from The Commander-in-Chief -- a dynamic the existence of which Maguire, Taranto and (implicitly) Ponnuru all denied as their only response to my argument:
Rush Limbaugh - November 11, 2005:
It's one thing to have a sizable minority like the Democrats stand in your way, but it is just unacceptable when a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of Republicans in Congress also rear up in opposition and join the liberal Democrats to derail an agenda. At some point that has to be faced. It has to be faced because these RINOs, these moderates, are undermining our agenda on taxes; they are undermining our agenda on spending; they are undermining our agenda on oil drilling, and they are undermining the war on terror -- and I'll give you some names. You want some names? Here they are: Olympia Snowe, John McCain, George Voinovich, Mike Castle, Christopher Shays, and about 30 to 35 others.
I don't care if they're Republican liberals or Democrat liberals, they're still liberals. They're not "moderates." Don't hit me with that. There's no such thing as a moderate. A moderate is just a liberal disguise, and they are doing everything they can to derail the conservative agenda, and they've been frustrated, they haven't been able to do anything about it because conservatism has been so strong. This propaganda attack on the president has weakened him.
Does that count? Here is Rush Limbaugh calling McCain, Voinovich and Snowe -- along with anyone else who opposes the President - "liberals." Why? Because their "attack on the president has weakened him."
Article from The Washington Post, July 1, 2005
A consultant who monitored news and talk programs on public radio and TV found that liberal and anti-administration views were widespread, but critics said the consultant's work was itself biased and riddled with errors.
The consultant, Frederick W. Mann, was secretly hired last year by Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, chairman of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the agency that disburses about $400 million in federal tax funds to public broadcasters. In recent months, Tomlinson has criticized National Public Radio and the Public Broadcasting Service for an allegedly liberal bias and has pushed PBS to add programs with a more conservative tone. . . .
[Sen. Byron] Dorgan pointed out that "red-blooded" conservatives such as Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) and former congressman Bob Barr (R-Ga.) were classified as "liberal" and "anti-administration" apparently for briefly expressing views that differed from administration policy.
Does that count? Here is a consultant hired by the Bush appointee Tomlinson calling Sen. Hagel and Bob Barr "liberals." Why? Because they "express(ed) views that differed from administration policy" (h/t Steve Benen at The Carpetbagger Report).
Newsbusters, February 6, 2006
Citing liberal Republican Senator Arlen Specter as his authority on whether President Bush's actions were “illegal,” and with “Invoking the 'I' Word” on screen beneath a picture of Bush, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann opened his Monday night Countdown program.
Does that count? According to Newsbusters, it's an example of outrageous left-wing media bias to even talk about the criticisms of the President made by Sen. Arlen Specter because Specter -- who just ensured the lifetime confirmation to the Supreme Court of John Roberts and Sam Alito -- is just a "liberal."
Conservative blogger "Rousseau" - November 1, 2005
Andrew Sullivan is a liberal. I would like to make it clear that anyone who could say that above quote will always be on the liberal side, and frankly most Democratic politicians couldn’t afford to say anything that questioning of the war and its current director.
Does that count? "Andrew Sullivan is a liberal." Why? Because he said something "that questioning of the war and its current director," the Commander-in-Chief.
John Podhoretz, February 12, 2006
And accusing me of being either a liberal or in a liberal bubble or being manipulated by the liberal media for saying that it's a big deal when the vice president shoots somebody isn't a rational response to what I've said about the Vice President's hunting accident.
Does that count? John Podhoretz -- John Podhoretz -- is called a "liberal" by National Review readers because he criticized Dick Cheney's handling of the hunting incident.
Beginning with Tom Maguire, will the individuals who denied the existence of this phenomenon – or who hid behind the inane tactic of claiming that the examples I provided were inconclusive - now acknowledge that this cultish practice of excommunicating people from the conservative cause for criticizing or dissenting from the Leader is pervasive and quite common, not to mention creepy and disturbing?
Since these posts were written, Digby posted an analysis of exactly the manner in which Republicans have sacrificed ideological principle for power, accompanied by a prediction (already coming true) that, as Bush becomes more unpopular and his Presidency is recognized more and more as a failure, "conservatives" will disclaim him altogether as one of their own on the grounds that he was the antithesis of real conservatism (a point also made, in a slightly different form, both by Dave Neiwert and Atrios). As Digby explained:
But, of course, the modern Republican party is not conservative by any definition of conservatism. I'm not even sure it's ideological at all, but to the extent it is, it's radical. Yet the allegedly conservative party has enthusiastically supported a president who believes that you can wage wars, lower taxes and expand government all at the same time. That's not just radical, it's magical. And they can hardly raise their heads even today to oppose an administration that is radically expanding the police powers of the federal government.
And, as I noted in my reply post -- and as Maguire, Ponnuru, and Taranto all ignored (because, really, what can be said about it?) -- no less a conservative shining light than Bill Kristol has acknowledged the shameful fact that Bush became the "movement and the cause" for conservatives. Isn't it a little bit difficult to dismiss an argument about Bush as the by-product of leftist deranged hatred when Kristol himself is making the same argument? (I pointed this out to Maguire in an e-mail reply, and ennumerated five independent substantive arguments in support of my position which he pretended did not exist, only for him to post twice more in which he cheaply mocked my position without so much as acknowledging those arguments in support of it).
Anyone who pays even minimal attention is aware of multiple examples of solid conservatives being labeled "liberal" because they criticize George Bush -- which is exactly why those pretending to reply to my argument never actually denied or addressed the central argument, opting instead to hide behind the cheap tactic of quibbling with excerpted phrases in order to cast the appearance of replying. But since they contested the examples I provided and asked for more, I wanted to oblige. I look forward to their responses.
As tyrants realize their propaganda isn't working, they do what they've always done: Rely on non-sense. As to Tom Maguire [sp?] posts, this might give him something to drool over: [ Click ] Some tips for radio talk show also apply to blogging: [ Click ]
ReplyDeleteIf someone wants to call a right wing conservative hawk a "liberal," then the only way we can be "left of them" is if they're right of us -- or a fascist. [ More ]
As to issue of labels and politics, these are curious -- but the time to look at the big issue is at hand: What will be done to apply the lessons of the Enron, 9-11 and class action litigation to the NSA issue. Here's a thought on moving from the pettiness and facing the litigation issues. It's all about asserting rights and protecting this Constitution. [Click ] Here's a sample of tracing a single bit of evidence to its logical conclusion in the public discourse, litigation, and Congressional reform: [ Click ]
Expand it beyond that, though, and there are all sorts of people who by no stretch of the imagination could be considered liberals, who are nonetheless called liberals or even "leftists" for opposing Bush's policies, particularly on Iraq. Richard Clarke, Joseph Wilson, Alberto Mora, Lawrence Wilkerson, and many others -- none of these people were ever considered of the left before they started opposing Bush, yet people like Clarke and Wilson are routinely talked of on the right as though they were liberals or leftists. Francis Fukuyama is another conservative -- even neoconservative -- who is scorned by Bush followers as something less than a conservative now that he opposes the ideas behind the Iraq war.
ReplyDeleteThere is also a similar phenomenon by which moderate liberals are referred to as "far left" for being opposed to Bush. Paul Krugman, Howard Dean, Al Gore and many others are examples of people who are not "left-wing" on any policy issue -- yet are talked of by vile hacks like Taranto as members of the "angry left," not because of any policy they espouse but simply because they are anti-Bush. Being anti-Bush is 'left-wing." On the other hand, a Democrat who supports Bush, like Joe Lieberman, is considered a "moderate" by Bush lovers even though he is to the left of Dean on a number of economic and social issues. One's political position is defined entirely, for this crowd, by one's attitude to Bush.
Would it help if we reflect on the fact that "liberal" has become an all-purpose pejorative for those on the Right (whom I hesitate to call "conservative", lest I similarly devalue the meaning of that word)? Hagel is called a "liberal" because "poopy-head" is too obvious.
ReplyDeleteHeadline:
ReplyDelete"Bush vows to veto any bill to block UAE Port deal"
Is he insane? I have yet to speak with one person who isn't against this deal. The Republicans I have spoken to are more upset than the Democrats.
I really have to conclude that either there's some very significant money changing hands here under the table, a sum so big that it's worth committing political suicide for, or someone has something on someone.
What other explanation could there be?
Is anyone here in favor of this deal?
PS. Senate Majority leader and also Dennis Hastert say "this bill must be put on hold."
Frist will approve it eventually. He's at least as insane as Bush.
Glenn, another great post.
ReplyDeleteAs this scandal over Bush's deal with the United Arab Emirates-based company to provide operational and security control over six U.S. ports grows, one has to wonder whether there are defenders of Dear Leader even on this front who would dare to label opposition to this nonsense worthy of a "liberal" label as well. It's insanity.
constant! You are back. I am the poster who has been writing that I hope you are not really saying "adios" to this country and leaving. I love all your posts and am a big, big fan of yours! Welcome back!
ReplyDeleteWhat we need to do is figure out the term we should use to label Bush because we all know that Conservative just doesn't cut it truthinesswise.
ReplyDeleteSquanderative?
Libercontrarian?
Somebody help me out here.
PhD9: George W. Bush is a populist. As are most of the crew at Fox.
ReplyDeleteThat makes them a combination of everything that is worst about some ideas usually deemed left, and some ideasusually characterized as right, all operating in horrific synergy.
"We're at a crossroads. Which way will we choose?"
ReplyDeleteCafferty on CNN just said this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. He says nobody has been willing to stand up to this administration for far too long a time on anything. Everyone should fight this deal with everything they can, and if it goes through, "every elected official who votes to allow it should be removed from public office."
Oh, and he said that if this deal is allowed to go through, "we're at an end."
You should hear the rest of his opinion piece. He clearly is someone who could be an ally of Glenn. I hope they will discover each other.
HOW COULD BUSH BE SO INSANE?
Really, not to be immature and snarky, but is he back on the bubbly? Political ineptitude of this magnitude is rare.
It also shows how crazy Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzales are, all of whom support this deal.
And how they really don't give a damn about what the country thinks.
Bush said "This is a terrible signal to friends around the world that it's okay for companies in one part of the world to manage the ports but not companies from another part will manage the ports."
Amazing. And this isn't a company, it's a country.
Rep.Curt Weldon: "This President did nothing to communicate with the other branches about this deal. We will not stand for that.... It would be like having America go over and buy the airport in Dubai. The UAE would never stand for that."
INSANE.
Glenn, you have to address this issue. When we have Democrats AND Republicans saying "we are not slaves to the White House" over this issue, the door has been opened to point out that is exactly what the administration has been arguing congress is, and should be, evidenced by the NSA spying matter, etc.
Also, was Carter always this insane? Where do they FIND these idiots who become President?
Thank God you answered Maguire. I was actually getting worried about his mental health. He seemed so desperate for the attention that I honestly thought he was getting closer with each post to a real breakdown.
ReplyDelete...as Bush becomes more unpopular and his Presidency is recognized more and more as a failure, "conservatives" will disclaim him altogether as one of their own on the grounds that he was the antithesis of real conservatism.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read Digby's post on the subject yet (been out of town), but I'd just like to point out what I think is a very important point of protocol when it comes to the brand of conservatives that Glenn describes above.
These are people who have invested themselves in a personality cult during a time of increased stress about terrorism. Right or wrong (okay, let's face it, they're wrong), whatever the motivation, it can be explained at least in part by basic psychological fears that can be tapped within any of us. So my request is this: when one of these folks attempts to quietly begin to distance themselves from Bush and his policies with flimsy justifications and face-saving prevarications...let them. Just let it go, and please do not call them on it, or attempt to embarrass them or goad them into admitting a mistake. If it is already happening, the best thing one could do is to simply let them save face rather than risk shaming them back into the dark.
This is just general, unsolicited advice not directed at anyone in particular, and not intended to accuse anyone of shaming those who are switching teams for expediency's sake. We don't need to have every right-wing blogger betray the cult, or even deny it three times. It's enough that they say the policies regarding--well, take your pick--were enough to change the mind of one who was rpeviously a staunch defender of the cult.
The Revolution begins in earnest today!
ReplyDeleteThe Port deal is our Luisitania!
All are aboard, including everyone in the US Government except Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Chertoff, Addington, and Gonazales.
The incredible hubris which fells all tyrants has set in. The Greeks were so cool!
Mary Matalin, who is probably behind the strategy of "sticking firm" really struck out on this one.
Bush and his crew are corporatists, not conservatives.
ReplyDeleteFrom wikipedia: Contemporary popular usage of the term is more pejorative, emphasizing the role of business corporations in government decision-making at the expense of the public. The power of business to affect government legislation through lobbying and other avenues of influence in order to promote their interests is usually seen as detrimental to those of the public. In this respect, corporatism may be characterized as an extreme form of regulatory capture, and is also termed corporatocracy. If there is substantial military-corporate collaboration it is often called militarism or the military-industrial complex.
phd9: Chimpertarianism?
ReplyDeleteAlso, caught off guard about Hamas. Caught off guard about hysteria over port deal.
What are they on guard about? The money trail?
Bill Bennett: "This is not only a bad mistake, but it's a bigger mistake that he came out so strongly in defense of it."
At some point, I guess you have to respond to tripe like Tom Maguire’s posts, just so they don’t get away this sort of nonsense indefinitely. If you don’t respond, these sort of right-wing themes take on a life of their own. I know you’ll be condemned for engaging in this sort of minutia, and while it sometimes distracts from your larger goals, I do believe it is necessary.
ReplyDeleteYou don’t ignore this sort of stuff, and that’s another reason why your posts are causing such a stir, if you didn’t challenge them directly, you’d soon be ignored. So, keep it up.
Having said that, I find it amusing that after McGuire accuses you of juvenile insults, he then goes on to label your essays as “audience boosting flatulence” and “Glenn Greenwald’s brain fart” – really, Tom, can you get anymore juvenile that fart jokes? Talk about projection.
McGuire goes on to say:
Meanwhile, my one secret hope - that a notable Dem would actually pick up on one of these silly, self-defeating themes - remains unanswered. Too bad. Don't we all agree that if Howard Dean had any stones, he would say "authoritarian cultists" right there on national television?
Now that snide condescending remark really represents his worst fear. When we start hearing Glenn Greenwald’s themes on Sunday morning talk shows, Bush cultists will have more than a bad case of gas.
They are populists:
ReplyDeleteAt its most basic notion, populism is symbolized by political movements,--sometimes represented by charismatic individuals, interest groups, political parties and politicians. They claim that there is illegitimate power operating against the American political creed and this power is exercised by self-serving, out-of-touch elites that apply it against the will of the majority of the people.
The illegitimate elites for Bush “conservatives” are liberal : academics, most of the media, Eastern cosmopolitans, and intellectuals in general. (I actually share some of their criticisms about some of these, but not the caricatures, and my response is quite different.)
Bill O’Reilly insists, all the time, that “the secular progressives” are waging a war against the “little guy” to force on him all of: gay marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution, and the destruction of his holidays (e.g. the "War on Christmas"). O’Reilly will also pander to populist suspicions of big business, as for example by railing against the oil companies.
The name of the disease is populism
on a strategy point, maybe it's OK to let people still in the cult deny that they are kicking others out with the label that they deem the equivalent of poopy-head: liberal.
ReplyDeletethe fact is that the right has made progress in making liberal and left dirty words. but now they are essentially attempting to choke themselves on their own success: the more they use the terms as pejorative, and the more people they ascribe these words to, the less negative they become, and the more these bobos unintentionally dilute the linguistic power that they themselves created.
not to mention, it would be nice to actually have more liberals running around...
Wendy
Well said my favorite blogger.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for your continuing work Glenn. We appreciate it out here on the last froniter, the greatland, the 49th.
ReplyDeleteThat was a smackdown for the ages. But I do request that Whitman simply be ignored. Anyone who's that wrong, that often, and too cowardly to allow comments should receive nothing approaching "validation" of his wannabe pundit role.
Ridicule: Early. Often. Unrelenting. That is all Whitman and the rest of the Beltway cocktail circuit consultant class deserve...ridicule.
aaron: very wise advice.
ReplyDeleteWendy said: "the fact is that the right has made progress in making liberal and left dirty words. but now they are essentially attempting to choke themselves on their own success: the more they use the terms as pejorative, and the more people they ascribe these words to, the less negative they become, and the more these bobos unintentionally dilute the linguistic power that they themselves created."
ReplyDeleteThis is probably the smartest thing I've read in months.
I agree that as a rule of thumb, TM is well-behaved. In this case, however, he's not being intellectually honest. Particularly so in his use of selective quotations.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, omitted in what at first appears to be a continuous paragraph, but are really selections, is this phrase:
"The anti-government ethos espoused by Barry Goldwater and even Ronald Reagan is wholly unrecognizable in Bush followers, who – at least thus far – have discovered no limits on the powers that ought to be vested in George Bush to enable him to do good on behalf of all of us."
I find this omission significant, as it really goes towards the heart of your argument. The point is that the cult of Bush is based in personality rather than principles. For instance, that we need to be skeptical towards a government who insists on new powers, or insists that they've had those powers all along.
Aaron - Excellent observations, although I do think the general phenomenon is worth noting, even if it may be strategically wise to allow them to crawl away from Bush without calling too much attention to it.
ReplyDeleteZack - You describe exactly the thought process I went through. I will pretty much always respond to even minimally substantive critiques. None of Tom's qualified. I explained why in response to an e-mail he sent and he just kept escalating the childish, substance-free behavior, but since I had replies I thought were worth making, I made them.
TO ALL - Blogger has been having bizarre comment problems not just with this blog, but with all of them. Comments disappear and then re-appear. Several people have e-mailed asking why I deleted their comments. I haven't. I never deleted a single comment on this blog. Your comments are being eaten by Blogger, but then re-appearing with no discernible pattern.
Is there really any question that the problem with our society, the reason we are speeding toward a disastrous, authoritarian, third world future, is "the conservatives" – the people who think Rush Limbaugh talks some sense, would vote for Bush even given what we know now, and purport to "support the troops" by putting magnets on their Arabia-dependent SUVs and backing the power-mad leaders who send our military people into an incompetently-planned imperialist war justified with lies and the spread of fear?
ReplyDeleteConservatives used to oppose big government, but apparently out of a rather pathetic fear of attack, today's conservatives have no problem with the dear leaders making the government both more secretive and more powerful. George Bush has declared that if he says there's a war, as commander in chief of the armed forces, he can do anything he wants, even if Congress has passed a law specifically saying he can't, and even if it violates the Constitution he swore to uphold. As Glenn has been valiantly documenting and explaining, this is what the domestic wiretap scandal is about: to spy on citizens without a warrant from a judge is against the law, and, worse, directly violates the Bill of Rights, the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution.
I wonder how many conservatives have taken time to read the Constitution recently, particularly Article 2 describing the powers of the presidency. If any have, they know Bush's neo-emperor view of the presidency is nowhere in there. That's why the only people who believe in it are the people obsessed with power, like Cheney and Rove, yes-men like Alberto Gonzalez, and authoritarians like Samuel Alito. This is not a partisan issue. Sensible Republicans who believe in the Constitution rather than absolute power are opposed to the warrantless spying "program" and Bush's assertions he can do whatever he wants because this is "war."
Bush's radical power-grab runs directly contrary to the relatively decentralized, checks and balances system written into our Constitution. George Bush is trying to change America in ways no one should support. Anyone who looks at the last few years objectively must see that the dear leaders govern through bullying, fear, and tricky, obscurantist declarations that used to be called lies. Centralized power, secrecy, fear, lies – these are the hallmarks of authoritarianism occurring in our lifetime, right before our eyes, but somehow a significant percentage of the population – they call themselves conservatives – is all for it. Until the conservatives come back to reality where honesty is valued and lies are scorned, my message to them is this: don't tread on me (see U.S. Const., Amendment 2).
On Jimmy Carter's stance as to the port contract with Dubai: Carter is an idealist first and foremost. That is, he was/is the kind of person who would thoroughly check something out, would not award a crony contract, and would not unfairly prejudice a contract because the people with whom he is contracting are of a different race/religion, etc. He assumes all three as applied to Bush in this instance because as an idealist he ascribes to others the values he himself holds dear.
ReplyDeleteNow to the point of this Republican fracture. This is called: "what goes around comes around". Bush has spent the last four years in a jihad against people of Arab descent. His cult has followed him over that cliff. Witness their reaction to Gore's speech in Saudi Arabia. In truth, no president or shall I say presidential royal family has had closer ties to Middle East countries such as Saudi Arabia. (Remember the handholding in Crawford?)
I find this omission significant, as it really goes towards the heart of your argument. The point is that the cult of Bush is based in personality rather than principles. For instance, that we need to be skeptical towards a government who insists on new powers, or insists that they've had those powers all along.
ReplyDeleteExactly - and what I find most disturbing about Tom's behavior - and most reflective of its intellectual dishonesty - is that in reply to an e-mail he sent me notifying me of his first post, I told him I thought he had "replied" only to a stripped-down, caricatured version of my argument - where he was able to mock it as empty only by ignoring all of its substance.
I even listed five arguments supporting my position which he ignored (including the paragraph you just cited about the disappearance among "conservatives" of distrust of governmental power), and told him that if he wanted to address the argument, he should at least characterize it honestly and respond to the substance.
After I wrote that e-mail (which he didn't reply to), he wrote two more posts childishly mocking my argument (oh-so-cleverly calling it "flatulence" and "a brain fart") but continuing to ignore the arguments I told him he overlooked.
And he wasn't alone. None of them responded to the claim in that paragraph you cite, or the FISA reversal, or any of the other arguments demonstrating that loyalty to the Leader has obliterated allegiance to conservative political principles. That's why I hadn't bothered responding further since that first reply I wrote. Despite the large number of posts written by Bush followers about my original post, there was really nothing to reply to.
First the NSA wiretaps, and now the UAE ports deal--Democrats need to sound the battle cry. Now.
ReplyDeleteStrike while the iron is hot. Surge forward and don't look back.
This all ties together, Glenn. The fact that Bush-skeptical conservatives are being branded "liberal" in the same pejorative manner as the media and centrist Democrats first were will backlash against this weak, misstepping President when the dissenting conservatives finally come to resent the trickery and take a stand on principle, with the Democrats, on everything from FISA to the port deal.
When the NSA wiretapping story came out, I immediately knew this was the true (potential) beginning of the end for the Bush Movement. That's why I've devoted so much time analyzing it, and follow your commentary closely. The Executive's rampant duplicity and abuse of power at that point finally became unmistakable to all but the most fanatical Bush loyalists.
Watch: now that Bush has taken a suicidally hard-line stand in favor of the port deal, the phenomenon of exiling dissenting Republicans from the movement will become even more stark. Barring a significant change of some sort in the status quo, and provided that Democrats don't completely eviscerate themselves, this will result in an epic collapse of not only the Bush regime, but the Republican political majority which will find itself completely unable to separate itself from its past blind allegiance and complicity in Bush's pseudo-autocratic designs.
In order for this to happen, however, Democrats need to grab the sword that has fallen in their collective lap and rise as the true champions of accountability and principle. Now. Never has the writing on the wall been so patently clear.
Unfortunately, the Democratic uproar over the UAE ports deal seems to confirm that they still believe the "soft on national security" fallacy of democratic consultants that Glenn's been trying so hard to correct. The NYT article about the deal quotes several Democrat senators, including Hillary Clinton, as saying the deal is an "unacceptable compromise of the security of our ports."
ReplyDeleteThe NSA spying scandal is an attack on fundamental principles of American governance - the rule of law, the separation of powers, and constitutionalism. The ports deal is, at worst, an example of Bush's stubbornness and hubris. The NSA scandal is, in short, a much bigger deal, but Democrats have chosen to jump on the ports thing with much more enthusiasm because they believe it makes them look tough on terrorists (or Arabs, but that's good enough.) When, if ever, will they stand up against the administration on principle rather than on the expectation of some illusory political gain?
How about this example of being labeled a liberal just because you criticize Pres. Bush?
ReplyDeleteCPB Liberal Bias Study Flawed, Critics Say
A consultant who monitored news and talk programs on public radio and TV found that liberal and anti-administration views were widespread, but critics said the consultant's work was itself biased and riddled with errors.
[snip]
But Mann never explains his labeling criteria or indicates in any detail which specific comment or comments earned a guest a particular characterization.
Dorgan pointed out that "red-blooded" conservatives such as Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) and former congressman Bob Barr (R-Ga.) were classified as "liberal" and "anti-administration" apparently for briefly expressing views that differed from administration policy.
Greg, I will agree that criticism should be made when it is due, but I think you've got it wrong. By presuming that Democratic opposition to the UAE deal is "political opportunism" and not a stand on principle, you yourself buy into the myth that Democrats are soft-on-national-security political manipulators.
ReplyDeleteHad Democrats not vehemently denounced the deal, hordes of self-defeating liberals would have screamed that they were falling asleep at the wheel. This is a matter of principle. Just look at the history of the UAE and other facts posted on blogs such as Kos; also observe that it's not just Democrats objecting, but prominent Republicans as well. This is big, and addressing it in no way abandons the ongoing NSA spying controversy.
Excellent posts.
ReplyDeleteAdding to the point Digby made -- that the Bush Cultists will dump Bush and move on to someone else -- it's worth noting what the rank & file Bushbots were saying in the immediate aftermath of the Meiers nomination.
A quick perusal of the usual Bushbot web sites found, not only disillusionment about the Meiers nomination, but a huge number of Bushbots said things like "The liberals are right; everything Bush has done has been rank incompetence." What was astounding to me was how quickly they were able to recite his long track record of incompetence, arrogance, and callousness -- some even mentioned his national guard service and his drinking problems. Yet, when Meiers was dumped for Alito the very same people went right back to the Bush-can-do-no-wrong meme.
What this says to me is that Bush can be dropped from the movement and labeled a "liberal" in a heartbeat too if he betrays the movement on an important issue. (The Supreme Court nominations are widely seen by the Bushbot base as the most important decision he makes, because it has such lasting impact, and because it addresses head on the "culture wars" they talk so much about.)
So, the Bush Cult is misnamed, as are Bushbots. Bush is, as we all know, an empty suit onto which the Bushbots project all these wonderful qualities.
Call Bush what he is: Rebel, he is in rebellion against the Constitution.
ReplyDeleteYou can argue all day about labels, the bottom line is that [a] clear terms in the US Code do not match [b] NSA, NSC, and DoJ procedures; and these do not match/are at odds with [c] what was going on. Yes, they made procedures that violated the law; and then they violated these unlawful procedures.
There is nothing that allows the Congress, President, or anyone in government to violate FISA. Click The Intelligence Committee and the IG process are only part of the problem. There is message traffic that shows, or should show when the Intelligence Committee knew or should have known there was a problem.
The problem with the NSA issue is that it crosses both sides of the aisle, is not isolated to the Executive Branch. Clear ministerial duties are imposed on the executive; and the Congress has the power to order IG investigations -- even if they are in the minority.
It's time for an outside special counsel to be brought into the issue to find out why the White House and NSA conduct violated the law; and what broke down in the IG and Senate Intelligence Process. At this juncture, its clear the Congress has enough information to impeach the President. It remains to be understood why the DNC Ranking Members in all the committees continue to whine about "we can't do anything," when it is clear under the 1947 Act they can trigger IG audits.
This Federal Government has failed, and they've done nothing for the last three months -- since the NYT disclosure of the unlawful activity, that the IG should have known about -- to warrant confidence in this American system of checks and balances.
The problem rests with the failed crew in DC.
Glenn said:
ReplyDeleteBased on this premise, Tom has issued what he boldly calls his "challenge" -- the "challenge" that he's been claiming I (along with Daou) have been evading. It's this:
OS - if Messrs. Greenwald and Daou, or their supporters, could find real evidence of Cult leaders actually re-labeling Bush critics as "liberal", that would advance this seminal effort and deepen our understanding of this important work.
Glenn, I don't really want to get in the middle of this labeling food fight, but it doesn't appear that you are being responsive to the challenge.
Tom asked for examples of folks that have "relabeled" people as liberals.
Perhaps I am wrong, but to me that means people who used to call Senator X a conservative and now call him a liberal because of his position on the NSA program.
You have simply listed some conservatives who are using liberal to label other people you consider to be conservatives.
There is another problem with this whole argument. By definition, people who oppose potential government intrusion into their personal lives through this NSA telephone intercept program ARE classical liberals or libertarians concerning this issue.
However, I see the point you are trying to make. The GOP is circling the wagons and slinging mud at the apostates who are criticizing the head of the GOP.
No big news there. The members of the parties are like fans of rival football teams. My team right or wrong...
The Dems did the same thing when Clinton was under siege.
One more aside...
Labels in American politics have been utterly non descriptive since the New Deal.
Classical liberals believed in the primacy and self sufficiency of the individual in most things. They believed that government was a necessary evil which tended to oppress and not help the average citizen.
The left in this country abandoned economic liberalism during the New Deal and more so during the Great Society when they adopted the basic premise of socialism that government is necessary to take care of the average citizen and business must be controlled. However, the left kept most of the liberal aversion to government interference in moral affairs.
The Conservatives used be traditionalists who thought government was necessary to control economic and social change. In other words, they were reactionaries.
However, the modern right in this country absorbed the displaced economic liberals while keeping the traditionalist view of moral issues.
Both parties are partially liberal in the classical sense.
However, the term liberal has been bastardized to mean government control and personal licentiousness.
Too bad. I liked the term liberal the way the founders meant it.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI have made no qualms about how much I disagree w/ your “cultists” assertations or how offensive I find them. But this on-going argument is just plain stupid, on both sides. However those on the right label people that criticize the Bush administration, proclaiming or using the words of Rush, Malkin, Reynolds, etc to encapsulate the right or conservatives is just a piss poor argument to begin w/. Responses or beliefs are always a subjective viewpoint & by allowing it or even pushing forth the arguments you have made, are you not saying that the major voices of the left represent & define the Liberal perspective as well? Couldn’t the like responses of the Left qualify as “cultist” under the same guidelines? Instead of suggesting that all defenders of the Bush Administration are mindless ideologues or “cultists”, wouldn’t it be better to just state that there appears to be a politically defining method used to belittle those that stray from one author’s or individual’s definition of proper support or response & show that individual’s hypocrisy? By suggesting the appearance of a cult, it taints your arguments & judges the other side of the political spectrum as well – whether intentional or not. Or is it no longer true that what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Look at the Democrats’ response to Lieberman & how he has be called a sell-out or suggested as being a lap-dog for the right. How about Clinton’s followers who blindly accepted whatever explanation was the preferred answer of day & used to ignore the serious criticisms about his Administration? Doesn’t that follow the same speculative lines that you have used to taint the defenders of Bush? Is it just as apparent then that both sides follow the same, subjectively defined dogma in addressing perceived breaks of their respective party line & that it is in reality, ignoring the fact that it is possibly just politics as usual?
I believe that you are smart enough to know the difference & clever enough to hide the hypocritical stance you have taken on behalf of the anti-Bush crowd. I fail to see what advantage you gain. Your opponents will just write you off as a “cultist” as well & you lose any legitimate claims to objectivity or the ability to promote & maintain any kind of consistent or useful dialog, beyond the occasional flame-war. I can see if your goals were to shunt out conservatives or to open & maintain a consistent monologue only – god how boring is that? Or as a device to increase web traffic for that monologue… but, by addressing the responses of the right, you have shown, partially at least, an ability to re-evaluate yourself long enough to generate a response. If they truly are the “cultists” you claim why even bother to respond or care what they say? You’ll retort that you don’t, but then again you did decide to address it again.
I’d say that you’re better off by suggesting it is a political method decidedly or purposely used to keep members of either side, in-line to the accepted party line or shame those that may have wandered too far. Because if your attacks fail to ignore the complete version of the other side, your arguments & views are just another pundit’s example of one side employing political clap-trap.
Of course, the fundamental conflict is between classical liberals and those who, for varying reasons, revile "the reality-based community." Most of the progressives and conservatives in this country are classical liberals, in the sense that they hold their views on the basis of their examination of the facts, and that if those facts were to change in a way that called their previous assumptions into question, they would revise them. Not so with the cult of Bush.
ReplyDeleteAs Glenn pointed out earlier, many of the principled stands against the illegal activities of the Bush administration are being made by conservatives. Regrettably, this has to be so, as the price of the conservative rise to power has been the devaluing of the traditionally leftist or neutral voices that would act as a check on that power, notably mainstream media, academics and scientists. Conservatives were willing to sacrifice these checks, to make common cause with and to provide intellectual cover for those who would build political power out of the basest elements of American society (is there a more cynical political maneuver in history than the Republican adoption of the Southern Strategy?). And now those chickens are coming home to roost, as the machine is being turned on them.
"I have made no qualms about how much I disagree w/ your “cultists” assertations or how offensive I find them"
ReplyDeleteHi. I'm a liberal. Please regale me with tales of how offensive you find what you feel to be an inaccurate or unfair representation of your political beliefs...
The Psychotic Patriot thinks that if Bush is threatening to veto his first bill over this UAE deal, he is planning something far more dangerous than turning over our ports to a foreign country associated with terrorism. You know, while we're all looking there, he's about to (cough-cause) let something horrible happen here. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteJust a small point, but Rush Limbaugh and others have been calling people who demonstrate the political ideals of Voinovich, Snowe, Hagel etal liberals and squishy moderates for many years prior to Bush, so its hard to see how this equals a cult of Bush. It would seem to be, rather, one side of the political divide labeling those who disagree with them, especially their ostensible allies in the same party, as unreliable. The left does the same thing does it not? And did it prior to Bush just as the right did, did it not. This seems like a not particularly useful argument and a not particularly accurate one, rather like the Bush Derangement Syndrome argument of the right.
ReplyDelete"Put it this way: most of Bush's policies are now defined as "conservative," even if they didn't used to be considered conservative before he adopted them (e.g. nation-building). Welfare reform did not become a "liberal" policy just because Clinton did it."
ReplyDeleteExcellent point. Neither did DOMA get redefined as a liberal bill, just 'cause Clinton supported and signed it. Nor did the economic sanctions on Iraq get redefined as liberal, just 'cause the Clinton Administration was the administration enforcing them.
In fact, I (a liberal then-Democrat) left the Democratic Party, right about that time, because of these (and other, similar) issues. And when I go to Green Party meetings here in L.A., I'm surrounded by plenty of other ex-Democrats, who did the same thing, at about the same time, for about the same reasons.
Are conservatives now exercising *their* independence and leaving the G.O.P., due to massive disenchantment with the actions of the Bush Administration? If not, why not?
These aren't rhetorical questions, btw. Maybe the conservatives, in fact, *are* leaving the G.O.P. I dunno. I'd like to hear the answer, preferably from a conservative.
The generally well-behaved adult Tom Maguire has spent the last several days frantically jumping up and down, throwing food and crying out for attention -- both on his blog and via e-mail to me -- because he seems to think he has a really impressive reply to my post which I have ignored.
ReplyDeleteFeel free to tell your readers how many emails I sent you (hint - one), feel free to note that I sent it a day after my original post, and feel free to reprint it.
Thanks.
Tom Maguire
it has surprised me just how much people have reacted to this particular series of posts, and as Glenn continute to point out, it only makes his words seem more true.
ReplyDeletethings like what pmain said:
"I have made no qualms about how much I disagree w/ your “cultists” assertations or how offensive I find them. But this on-going argument is just plain stupid, on both sides. However those on the right label people that criticize the Bush administration, proclaiming or using the words of Rush, Malkin, Reynolds, etc to encapsulate the right or conservatives is just a piss poor argument to begin w/."
um, isn't Glenn's whole point that there is a political division between fervent Bush supporters (Rush, Malkin, Reynolds) and conservatives/the right? isn't he saying that it's the extremists on the right that are redefining what it means to be conservative or right-leaning, and that they are ostracizing the larger
so using Rush, Malkin, Reynolds (who are popular voices representing the extreme right) as examples is NOT a piss poor argument. if you don't think that those voices characterize what it is to be conservative or right-leaning, why are you so offended by what Glenn says? they're the ones pulling the image of the party/ideology into something radical. why aren't you taking it up with them?
-amutepiggy
gotta get me one of them blogger ids
crap, and i have to learn to edit my typing.
ReplyDelete"isn't he saying that it's the extremists on the right that are redefining what it means to be conservative or right-leaning, and that they are ostracizing the larger"
should read
"isn't he saying that it's the extremists on the right that are redefining what it means to be conservative or right-leaning, and that they are ostracizing more and more of the population that used to be part of their base?"
* The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
ReplyDelete
* Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
* Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
* The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
* The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
* The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
* The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
* The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
* The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
* Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
* The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
* The group is preoccupied with making money.
* Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
* Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
* The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
I would agree with another poster here that Bush is merely a populist. I would say that Bush puts forward issues that people seem to like on the surface but when examined are not realistic or beneficial to the people they are meant to help (pescription drug benefit comes to mind) nor conservative. I feel the Administration is trying to gain Bush's popularity back, which it should. A restrained more "conservative" message, I think, would be more helpful to him.
ReplyDeleteIn the article Glenn posted, he posted a response that someone posted (sorry, I have neither the will or time to reference, and I assume, if we all read the Glenn post, we all know what I'm talking about) that the time of war has changed everything. I can see that point of view although I reject it. Still it does not address the issue of those who are critical of the administration's policies as being labeled as liberal or no longer conservative, if the original poster was conservative to being with. That's not fair. Why? Because the original conservative movement had great ideas such as limited government, and some with which I disagree such as social issues.
I think the administration is one the brink...either they gain hold again or this administration will fail. Nothing positive is coming out, only negative. Something is going to happen.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Internet debate... well... human debate, actually. You're a very smart guy; less smart, less mature, less wise people will find that threatening, and this is one of the many many ways they will go after you. As they are not equal to the task of actually defeating your arguments, they will quote you out of context, ignore your most telling points, and restate your weakest points in a manner that makes them seem utterly ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is still, for the most part, them being civil. If you continue to insist on being unfairly smarter, more cogent, and more lucid than they are, you can expect them to start unpacking the shrill personally insulting vitriol fairly soon.
I've gotten this a fair amount in my time on the Internet, and I rarely post on anything as substantive as politics. I've discovered that if you write articles stating that, for example, certain comic books that some people love really aren't very good, and supporting that point with detailed analysis and examples, well, eventually, someone somewhere is going to start a thread on some chat board where people end up insulting your mother and wishing you in hell with rats gnawing your eyeballs because of it.
The Internet is empowering, and that's wonderful, but some of the people it provides a voice to are very happy to take advantage of distance and anonymity to be unfair, unpleasant, mean, and downright cruel. I'm sure you know that, but, well... I wouldn't expect any of these people you are directly addressing in this post to suddenly straighten out and begin behaving correctly any time soon. As a general rule, people who use these kinds of tactics don't stop until they have to.
Most of the progressives and conservatives in this country are classical liberals, in the sense that they hold their views on the basis of their examination of the facts, and that if those facts were to change in a way that called their previous assumptions into question, they would revise them.
ReplyDeletePlease tell me such a statement is the product of ignorance rather than actual belief!
Classical liberalism is a certain theoretical perspective and ideology based on a certain number of fixed premises and which leads to many central tenents in political science considered to be eternal and immutable.
And, most certainly, it is entirely egrigious to lump in progressives and conservatives under this banner! The only modern political group that reflects the percpective of classical liberalism is libertarianism (and neo-liberalism). Progressives reflect the institutional liberal tradition which has many significant differences with the classical liberal tradition.
Highlander ”As a general rule, people who use these kinds of tactics don't stop until they have to.”
ReplyDeleteHighlander, well stated. To state the obvious: My concern is that "these people" who use these tactics are in the White House, and Congress screams with delight when they do it. Even when they "have to stop," they continue: Illegal wars, unlawful conduct, and violation of the Constitution.
dclaw1:
ReplyDeleteI think you are a very brilliant person. Your posts are extraordinary. You are right on the issues, and a master strategist.
Why are we all here, if not to develop a strategy to stop this "abuse of power" from
advancing, prevailing, and becoming ingrained in our society?
I was the "anonymous" who posted all those posts about the port issue when it first came out, arguing that it was a "gift" that had dropped into the laps of all of us with a broader agenda, to preserve the Rule of Law.
Instead of seeing that this is the strategic vehicle on which to leap to advance our cause, Glenn jumps into the sandbox to waste his time arguing with some ridiculous insignificant person who criticizes him by resorting to iintellectually powerful attacks like "flatulence" and "a brain fart".
Glenn is like a little kid who feels injured that some obnoxious other little kid has insulted him. He wants to spend his time winning back the marbles when he could have leaped on the issue with the most chance to stop this nation-shattering trainwreck from happening.
What the hell does this spat with some nerd have to do with saving this country from authoritarianism?
The wind is no longer at Glenn's back. He has lost the moment, and lost a lot of my respect.
It's time for an Alexander Haig moment around here. Dclaw1 is the one who should step in and lead the charge.
Lou Dobbs, business commentator and generally calm, level headed observer says:
"This is as wrongheaded as it gets. If this administration thinks this is the way to run this country, we're in deep, deep trouble."
Lou saw that in a heartbeat. But Glenn's to busy defending himself to Alfred E. Newman.
Someone named Tom Maguire ["TM"] confirms he's alive, but is he breathing?
ReplyDeleteMaguire re-pastes to GG's UT: "The generally well-behaved adult Tom Maguire has spent the last several days frantically jumping up and down, throwing food and crying out for attention -- both on his blog and via e-mail to me -- because he seems to think he has a really impressive reply to my post which I have ignored."
Excellent: Someone named "Tom" proves he can type. Well done, but can he read, and what about thinking? That’s the debate: Can DC think or not. Let’s consider that . . . . [ shaking the magic 8 ball ] . . . .
Oh, look Tom, it’s floating to the top. . .
“TM is doubtful.”
. . . .
Commander Smarty-pants "Tom", feel free to e-mail me or post to my blog. The instructions on how to do it are hidden in this message, NSA can tell you how to decrypt the message. Those who have figured it out, will not have to read these instructions.
TM drools "Feel free to tell your readers how many emails I sent you (hint - one), " Big Tom, did you catch the latest on the NSA litigation against the White House? Even the RNC is getting into the act and offering suggestions on how to pork your President with a lawsuit and where to find admissible evidence. Want to read more? [ Click ]
TM chokes: ”feel free to note that I sent it a day after my original post, and “ . . . feel free to read this note I sent, and read the US Constitution: [ Click ]
TM spits ”feel free to reprint it.” Feel free to read this and discuss it with your friends. You have my permission to print it, but only if it is on yellow paper, but think sideways. [ Click ]
TM grovels, feigning civility"Thanks. . . . Tom Maguire"
Hay, Big Tom with smooth skin -- you're welcome. We should do this again: Next time bend over more, but next time, feel free to kiss my rear end, and post this comment on your blog.
And you can tell CID, NSA, DoJ and the DIA smarty pants I've made a special house call: They know how to find me. In and out of NSA without getting detected. How did that possibly happen, and who on the NSC is worried this week about the slow progress on the modernization efforts? Shame, all this equipment, and NSA can’t decipher it. Ouch!
NSA is still a shit hole to work in, even the dress-wearing-she-men in NSA's Q2 can’t stand their jobs. They say they love it, but they love going TDY more – special friends in special places. You know what they say about Q2 that likes to attach cables to things: If the power is on, you know there's something cooking.
Hint: I only like one thing: The Constitution. If you're not with it, you're wrong. Which side of the rebellion are you on, Tom? Here's how to learn about Rebellions that this President is leading: [Click ]
Choose wisely, you've done a poor job until now. You can redeem yourself. Your cause is failed, even the lowly maggots in the American cess pool are swimming away from you. Keep it up, that is if you have enough action-blasting away!
Give up, you're going to lose.
This is big, and addressing it in no way abandons the ongoing NSA spying controversy.
ReplyDeleteHeh.
Tom Maguire:
ReplyDeleteFeel free to tell your readers how many emails I sent you (hint - one), feel free to note that I sent it a day after my original post, and feel free to reprint it.
Feel free to say how many e-mails Glenn said you sent him. And then explain what your point here is.
But if you don't mind, I'm rather more curious to hear you respond to the substance of Glenn's post and actually argue the primary issue here, rather than spend too much time "nitpicking" peripheral facts.....
Cheers,
glenn--
ReplyDeleteword of advice: unless you're insulted directly, don't get involved in these online pissing matches. you'll waste too much time and energy.
McGuire is about as rational as Matalin, Coulter, or Rove. Reality is the enemy, blurring reality is their goal.
ReplyDeleteIt's deliberate, to misinform and confuse Republicans who stumble upon legitimate critiques of the WH and Congress.
I agree that fighting that crowd isn't worth the effort, it's like fighting every spammer that comes along.
I occasionally post a link on TMS site to encourage exploring other opinions.
Anonymous that addressed me above:
ReplyDeleteThank you for what you said about my comments. I think the UAE issue is substantively complex but strategically very simple. What I mean by that is that the propriety of granting the UAE control of our ports may involve a great many considerations, but the effect of Bush's intransigence on the issue coupled with Republican congressional (and electoral) outrage presents Democrats with a simple strategic victory. (I'll be posting what I mean by this on Glenn's UAE thread).
I'm not sure, however, what compels your harsh criticism of Glenn's defense of his arguments. Your call for me to take over or "lead the charge" is misplaced and puzzling to me. I remain a huge fan of Mr. Greenwald, and don't think it's playing in the "sandbox" for him to defend from critics what I think is a very important and accurate theory on the Bush Cult of Personality.
I appreciate what you said about my comments very much, but I remain a staunch Greenwald ally, and hope you will set aside your disdain for Glenn's fight with his critics and look at the bigger purpose of these discussions: to get a better understanding of the issues and what we, as Americans, need to do to restore reason and the rule of law to this country.
"Plot to kill US troops in Iraq."
ReplyDeleteThat's what these three guys are being indicted for.
Not to kill any Americans here.
Why couldn't this be renamed:
"Plot to aid their fellow countrymen in resisting the immoral, unprovoked, invasion of their country which has led to the deaths of tens of thousands of their fellow citizens who were guilty of nothing other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time?"
Is everyone here united that these people have done something so horrible?
If anyone here thinks the war was justified by trumped up evidence and outright lies, and is an immoral war, is it immoral to resist something which is immoral?
Lorenzo astutely declares: And, most certainly, it is entirely egrigious to lump in progressives and conservatives under this banner! The only modern political group that reflects the percpective of classical liberalism is libertarianism (and neo-liberalism). Progressives reflect the institutional liberal tradition which has many significant differences with the classical liberal tradition.
ReplyDeleteWell said, and so true.
I'm not sure, however, what compels your harsh criticism of Glenn's defense of his arguments.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed that as this blog as become more of a threat to the wingnuts, there have been a lot more attacks on Glenn from all directions. That's to be expected, and is a compliment, really.
I have no doubt people are coming here to stir up trouble, to pose as fans of the blog who are "disillusioned" and turning against it, etc. We should just studiously ignore all of that and stay focused on the issues and what we can accomplish here.
All of the anger and animosty directed towards Glenn from the Bush worshippers is just proof of how effective we have been
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteAs usual, a focused, well-evidenced, no-more-ad-hominem-than-neccesary defence of yourself.
However, I lean towards those who suggest not even bothering.
There are pros and cons: your thoroughness in rebuttal is above par, so the smackdowns add to your traffic, and traffic = power.
That's a pro. Your traffic may go up just because smackdowns are popular: see fox news, air america.
However, there is literally no end to the supply of people willing to mistreat and mischaracterize your argument. This is the human race here. You can never win a swamp fight: you can only perpetuate it. And you eventually provide footholds for these people to drag you away from substance and into pissing contests.
The line to walk between populism and the message is indeed a tricky one. Ain't it?
I'm not implying that you did this to be populist. It's more of a subterranean market force effect, or something.
It is rare that man is content to keep his emptiness of heart a secret. When that inner discord breaks forth in words, we have the sin of contention. Obviously, this does not constitute a prohibition law against discussion. Not every dispute is a sin, even though someone must be at least partly wrong, even though some disputes are never settled. A very great many arguments are positively virtuous, such, for example, as those against attacks on God or men. The difference between contention and defense of the truth is the difference between a man who will not lose an argument because his envy or pride cannot admit defeat, and the man who cannot lose an argument because he has hold of truth.
ReplyDeleteStill, even in perfectly legitimate disputes, there are limits. Somehow we do not expect a nun to descend to altercation over a taxi-fare; though we would not be so much surprised if an excited cab-driver expressed himself forcibly. We are quite right, For discussion should be suited not only to the subject-matter, but also to the person engaged in the discussion. A bishop, for example, has not the same possibilities in rough and tumble argument as has, say, a top sergeant; in fact, the bishop has no business getting into that kind of argument. In other words, this act of virtue, like any other, must be placed in fitting circumstances, the very circumstances must be in accord with reason. When discussion, however worthy its end, does not keep within fitting limits, then, as St. Paul insisted, it "not only does no good; it does serious damage to those who are listening."
http://www.op.org/Farrell/companion/comp305.htm
The commenters at TM's blog bolster Greenwald's larger point. The folks over there (and they are regulars, not lefties posing as caricatures of rightwingers) consistently mock critics of Bush as lefties or RINOs.
ReplyDeleteIt's not entirely fair to use TM's own conservative readership as evidence against Maguire, but it IS worth noting, if only to prove that TM surely must know that Greenwald is on to something. TM has a tendency to conveniently ignore trends that are consistently evident among his own Republican, Bush-worshipping readers.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteKeep it up. Your work over the last few months has been both inspiring and eye-opening. It's quite funny watching some in the blogshpere tie themselves up in knots to refute some of the arguments you and others like Josh Marshall, Digby, and Jane at FDL have been putting forward. It's nice to see reason and fact actually begin to work themselves back into the pciture.
Glenn, I have a question for diehard Bush fans:
ReplyDeleteYou’re staunchly loyal to Bush, but does his treatment of Jack Abramoff give you a shiver of disquiet? By all accounts Abramoff has been an incredibly loyal Republican since his college days, engineering innovative ways to move unprecedented money & power to the Republican Party. The moment he becomes a liability, Bush brushes his tracks -- forgets he ever knew him, never met him, claims Jack actually supports the Democrats (a liberal perhaps?)... Is there a small voice in your head saying >> This could happen to me, if I trip & embarrass the man, zig when he’s zagging, snicker while he’s listening...
Bush is a demagogue, pure and simple. I like to call his "position" Corporate Conservatism.
ReplyDeleteI certainly can't speak for Tom MaGuire, but in my experience, it's the condescending, amateur psychoanalysis, leading, inevitably, it seems, into incredibly insulting generalizations that normally discourages engagement. But nevermind, here are a couple of reactions to the examples you supply here. In passing, however, I have to admit that I'm not sure why you seem to believe that calling someone a liberal qualifies as notably more vicious than, say, calling someone an authoritarian cultist, but again, maybe that's just me.
ReplyDeleteNow, for your examples:
I'll give you Rush Limbaugh, with the proviso that he runs a wholly owned and operated, independent Cult of his own, not a franchise, but he looks like the only one who comes close to filling your bill.
For the record, the perception on the right of a liberal bias at PBS pre-dates the current Adminstration. The fact that Mann was tabulating liberal and anti-administration views suggests that putative cultists apparently do make some sort of distinction between the two, does it not? And if Bob Barr's brief appearance, for example, centered on his work with the ACLU which is, in fact, an ideologically liberal and arguably anti-administration organization, where do you propose Mann's check mark have gone? As you may recall, Barr himself had already been excommunicated by the voters in his district, for reasons which were largely tangential to his position on the liberal conservative continuum.
In Arlen Specter's case, surely, you jest? You can't seriously be suggesting that Specter is conservative Republican being newly re-branded as liberal, or that his Chairmanship of a key Senate Committee is evidence ofbeing shut out in the cold.
Never heard of Rousseau, myself. Does he have a big enough following to get into the excommunication business? I'm not sure how an example featuring Sullivan is relevant to any conceivable branding meme. As a political conservative and a social liberal he's a legitimate jump ball in any event. IIRC, wasn't Sullivan among those who attested that the anti-Sullivan emails coming in from the left were considerably more vicious overall than those he routinely receives from the right?
John Podhoretz makes it abundantly clear that opinion shaper here, aka Cult leader, disapproves of such relabeling and actively discourages it -- even in lowly unamed readers.
Digby's claim about the abandonment of Bush is pasted onto a pretty predictable phenomenon. Perhaps he's forgotten, or simply didn't notice, that several years ago, conservatives were already so openly critical -- idealogically -- of Bush's domestic policies, that the New York Times decided they needed to assign someone to actually cover conservatives -- for the first time ever.
What the left utterly fails to understand is that the Republican party was, is, and continues to be a coalition, not a cult. They're just more disciplined about message building than the opposition, because as a minority party demographically for so long, they had to be. This is not to suggest that Bush doesn't have plenty of real admirers, but the cracks you're seeing aren't new, they're just more visible because the majority party doesn't need the same kind of discipline to get things done. Conservatives put their eggs in Bush's basket, but they'd be crazy not to be looking way ahead -- after all, that's precisely how they got where they are now.
You make an excellent point in your piece. These individuals have been tagged as liberal merely because they have gone against the administration in some area. Senators Hagel and McCain are both looking to run for President in 2008 and will face a more difficult time in the primary elections due to campaigns like the ones you mention to portray them as liberals or traitors to the party.
ReplyDeleteCurious to see what the most reliable Bush supporters had to say about the ports deal, I read a NY Sun editorial linked from Powerline. After painting the Democrat opposition to the deal as political by making bizarre comparisons Democrat silence on anti-Semitic college professors and Clinton era arms exports, and pointing out nefarious labor union opposition to the deal, the editorial comes down to this:
ReplyDelete"We just have a hard time doubting Mr. Bush's sincerity when it comes to protecting American security - he feels it is his God-given calling, and he has demonstrated a vigilance that earns our respect, far more so than the politicians questioning Mr. Bush's judgment."
It is hard to imagine what evidence these people would cite which demonstrates his "vigilance" -- I think an episode like this is revealing of the Bush cult recently described by Greenwald and others.
It strikes me that the charge of "liberal" gets thrown around within the right wing movement clubhouse a lot like (I've read) the term "racist" got thrown around New Left meetings when everything was falling apart.
ReplyDeletejm hanes:
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that I'm not sure why you seem to believe that calling someone a liberal qualifies as notably more vicious than, say, calling someone an authoritarian cultist,...
I think you may have missed the point. Glenn was commenting on the fact that the Cult'O'Dubya does this to their own! They eat their young if they're just slightly out of line.
To me, being called a liberal is hardly a vicious attack, but to the Cult'O'Dubya, that's just one step removed from being Osama lovers and traitors who should be hanged, so the intent is surely to damage those who dare deny fealty to King George the Second.
Cheers,
I decided to help you out here, Glenn. Michelle Malkin is a liberal. Actually she's very, very liberal because she opposes the ports deal, opposed Miers and thought Brownie was incompetent; can't get much more liberal than that!
ReplyDeleteInstapundit is a liberal. Frank Gaffney's a liberal. Hugh Hewitt's a flaming liberal.
Anybody else? Oh, yeah, I'm a liberal too! The purge is nearly complete!
arne
ReplyDeleteNo I didn't miss the point, but I grant that my comparison was something of a detour. As a matter of labeling those with whom you disagree, though, I've always thought that "liberal" was not exactly a scorcher. During the last several campaign seasons, I kept waiting for someone to stand up, say, "You bet I'm a liberal!," make a run at rehabilitating the word, and thus limit its usefulness to the opposition. They backed away from it instead, and did a little relabeling of their own. They came up with "progressive" which would really be a terrific choice if only it were accompanied by some sort of identifiable political platform.
What's strange is that when Bush promotes patently liberal themes, his detractors simply dump on him for not being the conservative they claim he claims to be. As one of Tom Maguire's commenters put it: "Liberals are those people who are infuriated by the failure of this Administration to be conservative enough." Apparently they have more in common with idealogical conservatives than they realize.
Eating your own is not always a bad thing, and I would note that the folks over at KosCo do a pretty good job of it themselves. Republicans ate Trent Lott, and they ate the President's lunch over Harriet Miers -- both for good, ideological, reasons and neither because they strayed into anti-administration territory. Bush defenders are no more idolatrous than the folks who circled the wagons around Clinton and now disdain his centrist positioning.
At any rate, as for missing points, I believe you missed a central one of mine yourself. Perhaps a thought experiment might help. Try substituting "coalition" for "cult." If you can't make that leap, don't count on making political progress at the polls, regardless of the President's popularity ratings.
I have to admit that I'm not sure why you seem to believe that calling someone a liberal qualifies as notably more vicious than, say, calling someone an authoritarian cultist, but again, maybe that's just me.
ReplyDeleteAll your comments are irrelevant after this inane strawman that indicates that you have no idea what is being discussed here.
jm hanes:
ReplyDeleteAs one of Tom Maguire's commenters put it: "Liberals are those people who are infuriated by the failure of this Administration to be conservative enough."
Oh, nonsense. You mistake amusement for "infuriat[ion]". But I wouldn't go so far as to say that when Dubya is not being "conservative" enough, he's actually being "liberal" (unlike what the harpies in the RW cadre claim of other apostates from the song of the Mighty Wurlitzer).
Republicans ate Trent Lott, and they ate the President's lunch over Harriet Miers -- both for good, ideological, reasons and neither because they strayed into anti-administration territory.
It was conservatives that brought Lott down??? Bosh. They may have sacrificed him, but it was hardly their initiative to bring him to account to begin with. And while Lott stepped down, he's quietly been "repatriated" by the party ... they know who their base is.
The Miers thing was an anomaly in the normally solid Cult'O'Bush, but it was still a matter of the Republicans eating their own. Just goes to show how far abortion has twisted the Republican party.
Bush defenders are no more idolatrous than the folks who circled the wagons around Clinton and now disdain his centrist positioning.
So, I'm sure you can give us the fine examples of the Cult'O'Clinton excommunicating people who didn't show enough fealty to Clinton. Do tell, I'm all ears....
As for people criticising his centrist position, perhaps you just weren't paying attention ... and even more to the point, didn't even read Glenn's original post.
As for "circling the wagons", perhaps you're referring to the lynching. I'd point out that such as Lieberman certainly didn't "circle the wagons". But they did see that the Republicans were out to get him for a blow-job, and refused to play that game (which just goes to their rationality and sense of fair play, even if they disagreed with some of his centrist positions).
Cheers,
It's obvious that the only way Mr. Greenwald can sustain his thesis is by dismissing contrary but obvious evidence. And he accuses Tom Maguire and James Taranto of intellectual cowardice? Pot, kettle, black. And Mr. Greenwald can add his own blatant intellectual dishonesty.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, accusing critics of not *disproving* a thesis is not valid. It's up to Mr. Greenwald to provide compelling evidence. This he has not done, and events have provided opposing facts. He makes the same error as Dan Rather and Mary Mapes, for which they have paid dearly (though not enough, IMO).
The classy and honest response would be to say "I'm wrong". Alas, Mr. Greenwald has shown he has neither class or honesty, like much of the left.
Jim C.
zgystardst@yahooSPAM.ISEVILcom
arne
ReplyDelete"It was conservatives that brought Lott down??? Bosh. They may have sacrificed him, but it was hardly their initiative to bring him to account to begin with"
Where were you hiding? That drum beat came straight out of the neo-con camp. And that's where the anti-Miers pressure came too -- apparently you don't listen to Democratic leadership who made a point of snarking over the "extremists" who made sure she never got an up or down vote, etc. They don't bother to mention that she was a patently mediocre candidate. Shoot, I'd even give you cronyism on that choice.
Yeah, I read Glenn's post, but the fact that you completely miss the relevance of mine should maybe make you wonder about just how much you really don't understand about folks on the other side of the aisle. Unfortunately, it seems more than obvious just how little you know about the folks whose votes you need to get -- if you ever want to put someone you like back in office, that is. Glenn can strategize till Kingdon comes, and fantasize about facilitating schisms on the right, but until you figure out how to get my vote, you'll never make it from sideshow to big tent.
What's sad is that it wouldn't really be that hard. I'm pro Bush on foreign policy, but I'm also a pro-choice, social liberal who ends up hanging out on conservative comment threads because that's where I end up hearing considerably more points of view. There's a whole lot of shunning going on, but most of it is over here, not over there.
"Never get into a fight with a midget. You'll both end up looking ridiculous."
ReplyDeleteOh my gosh. I checked out Instapundit for the first time today. I am new to the blogosphere, and don't know all the most read sites yet.
I see why our Glenn took issue with Glen Reynolds, but my word, why get into a fight with a midget?
Why does anyone read Instapundit? It offers NOTHING of value. When I contrast it to this blog, well, there's just no comparison.
Glen Reynolds leads off with a commenter's quote from the recent AP article about Bush's secret deal
and Glen states he agrees with the commenter's point, and he's changed his mind to now conclude that the Port Deal is no threat and not to be contested.
The only problem is that the commenter MISQUOTES the AP article to make the exact opposite point that the article is in fact making. The AP article states that certain requirements that are routinely included in foreign deals are MISSING from Bush's agreement with the UAE. The commenter, and Glen, mistake that they are in fact included.
Gosh.
Then Glen Reynolds concludes that the real lesson to learn from this whole matter, in fact the only one, is that Bush needs to have a better PR department, as they didn't handle this deal correctly.
I wouldn't waste my time going to that site again. It is so mediocre and off the mark. Glen Reynolds in certainly no mental giant. Quite the opposite.
I see Glenn has been busy. I saw this on another blog, written by thersites2, and I reprint it, to inspire the troops until Glenn writes more about what he is doing.
ReplyDeleteI KNEW Glenn would be at the core of something really big. I just wish I knew what "populism" is, to know whether I support it. Is "populism" consistent with laissez faire capitalism, and with the kind of Constitutional Democracy the Framers constructed?
Isn't the Rule of Law different than "populism?"
Anyway, here it is:
"Direct Netroots Activism: A Movement, Taking Hold
Direct netroots activism is finally finding its legs.
As I wrote earlier today, MoveOn and similar organizations have done a good job of using the Internet to empower activists, but they tend to do so under a single banner: "MoveOn", "Dean for President." And while liberal bloggers are doing invaluable service as pamphleteers -- modern equivalents of Thomas Paine who educate, inform, network, inspire, and evangelize -- they, like Paine, are not actually generals; they motivate the troops but don't lead them in battle.
We have "grassroots organizations" and armies like MoveOn, and we have deep and inspirational thinkers and prophets like Markos. But we haven't had the one thing that the Web should be best at: Internet-enabled, truly populist, grassroots activism. We haven't had what I'll call "the virtuous mob": thousands upon thousands of individuals who find themselves all seeking the same thing and who move, simultaneously but not in lockstep, in unison but not in concert, to obtain it.
It sounds like a hair-splitting distinction, but it's an important one. It's the difference between VichyDems and MoveOn. MoveOn is a wonderful group. I can't express enough how much I support and appreciate it; I can't imagine the modern progressive movement without it. But, despite its sincere commitment to serving as an extension of the grassroots, MoveOn is still something of a monolith. It's easily labeled: "liberal." It has letterhead, its principals' names are well-known, it delivers petitions with "MoveOn" at the top. Truly populist grassroots, on the other hand, can't be labeled, and that fact gives them a different kind of power. It's the difference between MoveOn or PFAW handing a senator one petition with 1,000 signatures on it, and the same senator receiving 1,000 separate letters, each from a different individual, each speaking in its own voice, all asking for the same thing. I believe the 1,000 letters are more democratic and more effective than the one petition.
VichyDems has tried to play a role in enabling and coordinating, without directing or monopolizing, the nascent direct-action, individual-driven, populist progressive movement. In an earlier post, I described our objective this way:
"Our goal here is nothing less than helping build a new kind of movement that capitalizes on the Internet and other communications technologies that no citizens, in the history of the world, have ever had before. If the Dean campaign and MoveOn used the Internet to build "grassroots organizations," then we can use it to empower the grassroots themselves. We can bring a new thing into the world: Internet-driven, rapid-response, politically nuanced, direct grassroots democracy. I'm convinced that can be powerful."
Here's why I think this is a potentially powerful approach:
Those hammer taps, the voices of democracy recorded on voicemails and logged in daily reports by staffers, those hammer taps of democracy repeated often enough by enough people, will tip the edifice, so precariously balanced today, onto the side of democracy; and you, the virtual patriots, will be the ones that did it.
So please pick up the phone and make a call. Send an email. Shoot a fax... [T]ell your friends what we're up to here and encourage them to do the same. If you haven't signed up with our "updates" list (right sidebar), please do so, and ask your friends to do so. Kids home from school? Give them a civics class at home: sit them down with milk, a brownie, a telephone and a phone list. (Not even a Republican can withstand a child's voice saying, 'please, sir, I just want my country to be honest and fair.')
Inexorable democracy doesn't usually make much noise. It's not the raucous blare of quadrennial conventions. Rather, it's usually just a tiny sound: a tap, tap, tap.
Just in the last few days, these kinds of ideas seem to be catching on. People for the American Way ("PFAW") and MoveOn are starting to supplement their petition drives with emails asking people to telephone key politicians directly, and providing phone numbers. (Sound familiar?) Bill Beutler, who writes the National Journal Hotline's daily Blogometer column, recently wrote an article (based partly on VichyDems) that, while mistaken in some of its premises and conclusions, correctly observed that the spontaneous grassroots activism that actually gave birth to the Alito filibuster fight is turning into a broader movement -- one which he characterizes, narrowly, as a movement to oust Vichys, but which I see, more broadly, as one to reclaim America's progressive, populist values.
Some of the best bloggers in the business are starting to think and talk along these lines. In particular, Glenn Greenwald of Unclaimed Territory, Jane Hamsher at FireDogLake, John Amato of Crooks & Liars, and others are trying to figure out how to convert talk into boots-on-the-ground activism. As Glenn wrote on Monday:
'I've become a vigorous believer in the notion that the blogosphere is a uniquely potent vehicle for large numbers of people to act in concert in a meaningful way. National political advocacy organizations and party-based entities are, by and large, useless. They have become stagnant, entrenched, obsolete old relics of the political wars of the 1980s and 1990s. Many people who stay in Washington too long lose their ear for anything outside of Washington, and many of them become satisfied with status quo perpetuation, because they are so comfortable with their little niche, even if it's a losing one. The blogosphere has really become the venue for vibrant, novel and impassioned action. I hope to find a way to spend as much time working on these matters as I can because I believe the effect they can have is limitless.'
The point is, this is a movement. Two weeks ago, Bill Beutler's Blogometer asked with regard to VichyDems, "Are there second acts in American political movements?" Beutler's question astutely took for granted that the bottom-up Alito activism was the beginning of an actual political movement. And the answer to his question, depending on how feisty you feel, is either "Hell, yes, and wait for Act II" or, from my perspective, "What do you mean? Alito was just first sentence in Act I. Act I's just barely getting under way. We've got much, much more up our sleeve. And Acts II and III, when we finally get there, are gonna blow your everlovin' mind!"
So watch Glenn, watch FireDogLake, watch C&L, watch the other action-oriented progressive blogs, and watch here to see what happens. I think you -- yes, you, out there -- are going to help us translate talk into action. I think you're going to make a huge difference in the fate of our nation. And I think it's going to be a lot of fun."
jm hanes:
ReplyDelete[referring to Lott's beign deposed]
Where were you hiding? That drum beat came straight out of the neo-con camp.
Ummmm, rrrrrriiiiggghhhtt. It was the neo-cons that went and started making an issue about Lott's little encomium to the 'good old days' and his wishful thinking back to a more pleasant and tranquil society. It was neo-cons that immediately raised the red flag about his racist proclivities and decided that this was unacceptable. Well, I'm sure that such people as Joshua Micah Marshall is glad to have been elected to the ranks of the "neo-cons". You might let him know about this honour; I suspect that, as perceptive and as well-read as he is, he hasn't heard about this latest honour yet....
To paraphrase you: "What were you smoking???
And that's where the anti-Miers pressure came too -- apparently you don't listen to Democratic leadership who made a point of snarking over the "extremists" who made sure she never got an up or down vote, etc....
Hey, if the shoe fits. Nothing wrong in my book with pointing out RW hypocrisy whenever it arises (which is often).
... They don't bother to mention that she was a patently mediocre candidate.....
Oh, BS. Dems weren't happy with her. But for quite different reasons than the foaming RW battalions. You know this, of course. You just won't admit it. Take a trip down memory lane and look to see why the RW was so leery of Miers. Hint: It had nothing to do with incompetence, and lots to do with abortion.
... Shoot, I'd even give you cronyism on that choice.
Yeah, cronyism is plenty enough reason to give her the thumbs down (as well as incompetence). But while this was discussed on liberal blogs, the conservative cadres were far more concerned with her ideological purity, and only nominally concerned with competence and fitness (and that, I suspect, primarily as a fig leaf for giving her the heave-ho).
You're living on another planet, Mr. Hanes.
Cheers,
Arne L. -- there were some conservatives who were scathing in their denunciation of the Miers nomination on the grounds of competence. Prof. Stephen Bainbridge linked to and ratified this George Will column.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, Will and Bainbridge have also strongly criticized the NSA warrantless surveillance program.
Hypatia:
ReplyDeleteArne L. -- there were some conservatives who were scathing in their denunciation of the Miers nomination on the grounds of competence.
Ummm, I think you misspelled "accurate". ;-)
But nonetheless, the real antipathy on the right, and the reason her nomination got scuttled, was her insufficiently pure ideological credentials. You might take a peek at such as "southernappeal.blogspot.com" from around that period for what the folks on the right were saying at the time. The incompetence was just a fig leaf for why she didn't even deserve an "up or down" vote.
Cheers,
Amazing! Top neocon actually a lib!
ReplyDeletehttp://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=266122006&format=print
He says neocon movment a failure! Iraq a disaterous mistake!