Every American blogger whom I found discussing this issue – from the left wing to the Far Right and everything in between – was in complete agreement regarding this event. They all unambiguously expressed the opinion that while those who deny or downplay the Holocaust are deplorable, nobody should be imprisoned or prosecuted by the State for expressing an idea, no matter how repugnant the idea might be. That sort of trans-ideological consensus is almost unheard of these days with regard to any issue, and it raises what I think are several extremely interesting and important points.
I have argued many times that a recognition of the dangers of the Bush Administration’s theories of lawlessness and its law-breaking behavior -- both as part of the NSA scandal and beyond -- is not based upon liberal or conservative political beliefs but, instead, is compelled by the most fundamental and defining American principles of government. That is not some "framing" ploy or effort to "triangulate" a partisan political controversy by elevating it above petty partisan disputes. Rather, objections to the Administration's theories of power are grounded in non-ideological premises because what is so offensive about the Administration’s conduct and theories of power is not that they are liberal or conservative -- they are manifestly neither. Instead, both the Administration's law-breaking and its justifications for that law-breaking constitute a profound assault on the core principles of government on which our country was founded and which has governed the country since its inception.
That is the reason – the only possible explanation – why people across the usually impenetrable ideological divide have expressed such strong objections to the Administration’s lawless theories and behavior as part of the NSA scandal. And, notably, the arguments which are advanced against the Administration’s conduct are strikingly similar when articulated by the most liberal or the most conservative individual and by everyone in between -- just as the reaction to the David Irving conviction is so similar across ideological lines. That is not a coincidence. There is a compelling reason for that consensus. As I’ve argued before:
Importantly, this [the NSA scandal] is not a case where liberals and conservatives arrive coincidentally at the same place despite beginning from radically different premises -- the way, say, Pat Buchanan’s isolationist theories just coincidentally lead him to the same anti-war views as certain pacifists on the Left.
Here, the basis for opposition to the Administration’s action among liberals, conservatives and everyone in between comes from exactly the same set of principles and beliefs -- namely, that what is at stake in this scandal is whether America will continue to live under the principles of law and the system of government on which our country was founded and which has kept us both strong and free.
It is a difficult idea to express with precision, but I really believe that there exists a core set of political values which Americans have ingrained within them by virtue of growing up in this country, being educated here, and being inculcated with common perceptions of the country’s founding and its history (by "political values" I mean only that the values pertain to principles of government and law, rather than to, say, personal conduct or private morality). And when immigration policies are managed correctly, immigrants arrive here with those values already incubated or with an instinctive openness to them (which is one of the reasons they desire to come here), and they come eventually to embrace these values as well, regardless of political ideology.
To the extent that there is a set of values which can be said to define and distinguish what it means to be "American" -- and I believe there is such a set of values -- it is the core principles that define our political system and to which we all more or less implicitly subscribe. That Americans across the ideological spectrum still maintain a shared set of core political beliefs is what accounts for the consensus reaction to events such as the David Irving conviction, an event which does not even remotely produce a similar consensus in Europe or elsewhere.
The reason for this is clear. One ingrained American political principle is that citizens cannot and must not be punished by the State for expressing ideas and opinions, no matter how reprehensible, repulsive or even dangerous the opinions are. This is not something which most Americans even need to contemplate or debate. It’s ingrained on a visceral, almost instinctive level, such that reading an article which reports on someone’s imprisonment for expressing an idea provokes an immediate, reflexive revulsion. That is what accounts for the fact that reaction to the Irving story among American bloggers of all political stripes was not only so negative, but that the condemnation of Irving's imprisonment was expressed in the same terms, with the same language, and through an appeal to the same ideals.
The Austrian Holocaust denial law is by no means the only free speech restriction in Europe which would be unquestionably unconstitutional, and widely scorned, in the United States. It is not uncommon for individuals and groups in Europe (and Canada) to be criminally punished by the State for expressing all sorts of prohibited ideas. Punishment is meted out for ideas that are deemed by the state to be anti-gay, anti-Muslim, racist, or just generally "hateful" or "discriminatory." And the punishment under these European and Candaian laws is not triggered by some threatening behavior or act of physical provocation; it is imposed exclusively for the expression of ideas which the State has decided ought to be criminally prohibited.
I know from debating these issues that there are handfuls of people on the Far Left who will defend free speech restrictions of this sort on the ground that the right of people to be free from feelings of "intimidation" or "discomfort" outweighs the rights and virtues of free expression. And there are people on the Far Right who favor their own pet restrictions on free expression, whether it be prosecuting people for burning flags or prohibiting the expression of ideas they claim are "pornographic" or "obscene."
But outside of these fringes and aberrational viewpoints, the notion that the Government can define a set of ideas which is criminally prohibited, and which can serve as a basis for criminal prosecution, is sharply distasteful and even infuriating to most Americans. Reading about a Government somewhere punishing people for their ideas simply violates core American beliefs about the proper role of government and what is or is not a legitimate exercise of state power.
It is this same set of core political values on which opposition to George Bush's violations of the law is predicated, and that is what leads me to believe, vehemently, that Americans can be made to understand and appreciate the real danger and threat of the Administration’s behavior. Just as imprisoning people for their ideas is repellant to most Americans, it is (at least) equally repellent to these core values to hear the President claim that he has the power to break the law, that he can employ war powers against American citizens on U.S. soil even in the face of Congressional statutes making it a crime to exercise those powers, and that neither the Congress nor the courts can do anything to limit or restrict the President's conduct.
The set of precepts composing core American political values is clear and uncontroversial to most. We are a nation that lives under the rule of law. No man is above the law, including the President. Presidents do not have the right to engage in conduct which Congress makes it a criminal offense to engage in. To avoid the President seizing the powers of a King, the powers he exercises must always be checked and balanced by the Congress and the courts. In order to ensure that we have a representative government, only the people, through their Congress, make the laws, and everyone, including the President, is required to abide by those laws. We are a nation that is ruled by the people -- our elected officials do not rule over us -- and when we enact restrictions through our Congress on what our Government can do to us as citizens (as we did with FISA), those laws bind all citizens, including our elected officials.
None of those principles is even arguably liberal or conservative in the contemporary, political sense of those words. They are the defining American principles of government which has guided our country since its founding. And the Administration’s radical theory that any matter relating to national security threats "is for the President alone to decide" and that neither Congress nor the courts "can place any limits on the President's determinations" – which even bestows on the President the power to ignore Congressional laws or to wield war powers against American citizens on U.S. soil – could not be any more contrary to all of these core principles.
These are the principles that led Americans, in 1978, to enact a law, in response to decades of abuse of eavsdroping powers by Administrations of both parties, which made it a criminal offense for our government to eavesdrop on Americans without judicial oversight and approval. We collectively decided that we want aggressive eavesdropping against our foreign enemies, and the law we enacted enables aggressive eavesdropping. But we also decided that we trust our government to eavesdrop on Americans only with judicial oversight, not in secret and with no oversight. Through our Congress, that was the law we passed, and with that law, we imposed restrictions on the powers which our government could exercise against us.
George Bush concluded that he has the power to ignore that law – or any other law even remotely relating to national security – which he finds burdensome or undesirable. That is the Administration’s expressly stated theory of the President’s power, and it is what led them not only to violate this law, but to engage in the most un-American act possible of detaining U.S. citizens and imprisoning them indefinitely in a military prison without so much as charging them with a crime or allowing them access to a lawyer.
That conduct, and the theories underlying it, are at least as repulsive to core American political values as imprisoning people for expressing prohibited ideas. Very few Democrats have actually tried to make Americans aware of these matters, and to the extent that this case has been made at all, it’s been made most potently by conservatives. But these are the principles which are at stake here, and they are not even remotely ideological ones. None of this is about eavesdropping or FISA or Al Qaeda or libearlism or conservatism. Just as is the case for the David Irving conviction, the entire controversy surrounding the Administration's radical theories of power are about the principles of government on which our country was founded and which most Americans, by definition, instinctively embrace, regardless of political ideology.
Hey Glenn, this is one of your best, most interesting posts yet. This should be the basis for any talking points and arguments people make as part of the campaigns we do. It is so clear and true. I hope these ideas get distributed and understood!
ReplyDeleteI've been waiting for you to get to this post. It needs to be stated over and over that this is not about left vs right. Its about freedom vs tyranny.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was growing up in the late 60's, we were taught in school very specific reasons why our system of government was superior to that of the Soviets. Being the eager student I was at the time, I listened in class and took those lessons to heart. Now, 35 years later, I'm sitting back and watching every one of those reasons being thrown in the trash, one civil right at a time. Habeus Corpus - gone. Freedom from arbitrary search and seizure - CYA!
Not being deprived of life,
liberty, or property, without due process of law - What! Don't you know there's a war on!
Glenn, this is another insightful essay that really captures the reasons for my outrage with the Bush administration. I Many conservatives tick me off with their policies, say, Bush I, but they were generally not attacking and dismantling - on a daily basis - the core governmental principles of the constitution and the bill of rights. Another reason why the Bush administration and their enablers are so, so dangerous to the future of the country. Well said as always.
ReplyDeleteHi Glenn, I clicked that link to Jane's but got a Dickfest instead of initial thoughts. It might be the link, or Jane's thoughts are initially dicky. Will check later.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, sweety, could you just pay attention for a minute, here? I'm sure you're a fast reader. Been commenting on your wonderful blog but you seem to be reading the words of that other person (?) of opposite views and perhaps skimming if not downright skipping my much more friendly, action filled, and if I may say at times witty contributions. I'm not making light of the serious issues we're discussing but I'm urging you and everyone comitted to saving our country and bringing down the criminal Bush regime to now move forward. Weighty issues indeed.
I love your writing and am thrilled to have found someone of your obvious knowledge and passion so often echoing my thoughts and feelings. However,
I, ME am one of those (previously silent) Americans you keep talking about who has noticed the increased energy and passion on the web since the FISA law breaking came to light. And I'm one of the 61% who believe the country is going in the wrong direction and 51% who support impeachment and who feel no one is listening. Please will everyone look at the numbers and rejoice. I'll repeat, the people have been ahead of and on to the criminal administration, the media/propaganda, and many bloggers for a long time. Don't such low approval ratings mean anything anymore?
We've been more than patient. We've been waiting like the good little democrats we are and then you say this "I've left this whole discussion deliberately vague" and I say oh you mean the democrats, the opposinjg party, the people we are hoping will bring our country back to the rule of law have not already been vague enough???
Please, is it not true that the brillant, foresighted fab founding fathers gave us impeachment as our recourse? Is that not the next step? I believe the accountability we are so longing for can be given a name. The legal, constitutional, Congressional obligation of oversight is called impeachment. I've lived through a couple. If this one doesn't start soon I will despair. I don't know why everyone is so averse to saying it. Yes, we need investigations and hearings. Yes, we need special prosecutors (Go Fitz!) but I and many like me (the friendly waiters) and the majority, need to know now that these steps are leading to impeachment. We need to know our government is functioning and even remembers that impeachment exists.
We now have you and many blogs, and many people, and I hear maybe even some republicons wide awake and defending our constitution and committed to the rule of law. And when I see this happening on cspan it is thrilling.
After the elections and if they are not fixed again and we win a majority are we not going to impeach? Why not make very clear impeachment is on the way. Why not make very clear to the Dems we want to know now they will be demanding impeachment when we win but moreso why aren't they demanding it now?!
Anyway, thanks again for your blog and I would really like your thoughts on impeachment. And now must go muck.
Take care, Jan
One point, Glenn:
ReplyDeleteWhile the response of certain groups -- can we say "lawyers"? ... or perhaps "legal scholars" -- in both cases may be pretty much uniform across the board, that's hardly true of the population in general, not here in the U.S. and certainly not across the world.
There are significant and diverse groups of peole for whom warrantless snooping (or even lawless "big brother" gummint as long as the things it does are for our own "good") is either tolerable or a great idea. Hollywood certainly doesn't help here; we see many more of the "Lethal Weapon" type movies and shows than "Twelve Angry Men" types.
Expediency matters a lot for some ... I'd venture more for those that don't think too deeply about the ramifications, or who think that such "expediency" can be turned on and off at a switch of a button if it ever gets out of hand (and who tend towards the opinion that it doesn't have some intrinsic tendency to get out of hand).
There's quite a substiantial faction in the U.S. (if not a majority) that doesn't have a good clue about the origins or the history of the Fourth Amendment, and who don't see how it's a problem that the "cops" are on the trail of the "terrorists" and peeking in on them. For that matter, on a more general level, if you were to strip the high-faluting language from the BOR, rewrite the 10 amendments as proposed new laws, and put it up as a referendum, I suspect that you'd be luck to get half of them adopted.
Similarly with the "freedom of speech" issues: Many people haven't thought too deeply about the underlying issues, and see no problem with limiting "vile" speech by Nazis, "obscene" or "blasphemous" speech that offends some people's sensibilities, etc. Their own speech is always "polite" and "acceptable" of course (particularly because everyone tends to talk mostly to people of the same general bent), so why can't everyone just stay within the rules of civilised discourse (and stick to the "facts", such as the obvious one that the Holocaust happened)? But most people are not lawyers, and with a declining interest in civics and an increasing hype of "extraordinary means" of solving the world's problems thanks to Hollywood, we're fighting an uphill battle here, Glenn.
Cheers,
I hope those universal American principles are still being taught. I worry that we are raising a generation of children who won't have the same baseline
ReplyDeletevalues that many of us learned in grade school civics classes.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteYou keep repeating that, Governments, the State and etc., should not restrict any speech, ...Government can define a set of ideas which is criminally prohibited, and which can serve as a basis for criminal prosecution.. You mention Austria and Canada as examples, yet you fail to mention that these nations are liberal democracies with delibrative bodies making these laws. One would assume that in fact the laws reflect the will of the people in some way so they are not like the totalitarian Soviet system or even like a two bit dictatorship.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThank you for stating again what America is supposed to be about. There was a time -- before BushCo took over -- that I would have thought all Americans liberal and conservative would have agreed with you. And moreover, I would have thought that the American news media (of which I was a member for more than 20 years) would have been on the firing line to defend the Constitution and protect America. Alas, we have learned that things don't work that way.
I thought the FISA issue was the "line in the sand" for the Bush Administration. I have been shocked by the response from many conservatives and much of the news media who don't think it's that big a deal or who love how the White House is boldly redefining law as it "protects" America in this scary world today.
Your blog is illustrative of the pamphleteers at the time of the American Revolution. You speak for democracy, for the Constitution, and for the cherished American values that the Bush Administration is chipping away.
>would assume that in fact the laws reflect the will of the people in some way so they are not like the totalitarian Soviet system or even like a two bit dictatorship.<
ReplyDeleteOne of the things the founder were guarding against was the tyranny of the majority. Its very easy to get a majority of people to agree that a minority of people should be marginalized. That's why we need rights in the first place.
Free speech in the United States has always been strangely defined. While verbally supporting it as an absolute, the US has throughout its history militarily opposed it. The history of the US is the history of wars of aggression and in modern times assassinations. There is nothing more limiting to freedom of speech than overthrowing democratically elected governments. High on the list is interfering with democratically elected governments. On an individual level, assassinations represent the ultimate form of censorship. A partial list of democratic countries interfered with or overthrown is: Chile, Argentina, Egypt, Iran, Nicaragua, Guatemala and even Canada (John Diefenbaker). The list of non-democratic countries that the US as sought to control, or has overthrown is much larger. The view that Americans support freedom of speech is horribly myopic. I think that the rest of the world will beg to differ.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was growing up in the late 60's, we were taught in school very specific reasons why our system of government was superior to that of the Soviets.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more - that's why I believe that Americans share a set of common political values. And we were taught them at a time when we perceived that we faced an enemy far greater and more formidible than Al Qaeda. We should not be a country which relinquishes our political principles due to fear of an enemy.
I clicked that link to Jane's but got a Dickfest instead of initial thoughts.
FDL's specific links are always weird and a little unreliable. Sometimes tehy
I read all your comments about impeachment, Jan. I read almost of all of the comments here. But I think talk of impeachment is like talking about sentencing before there is a trial. I think more Americans need to be convinced that the Administration engaged in wrongful, corrupt conduct here - and we need a full Congressional investigation into what occurred. Results can be discussed after that.
we're fighting an uphill battle here, Glenn.
No question about that. But most Americans, I believe, are firmly opposed to political arrogance and hubris, and there are few things more hubristic than a President who arrogates unto himself the power to break the law.
One would assume that in fact the laws reflect the will of the people in some way so they are not like the totalitarian Soviet system or even like a two bit dictatorship.
I couldn't disagree more. This assumes that whatever majorties do is, by definition, fair and just. Majorities are often the greatest tyrannical force. Our entire Constitution is based on that premise - it's really a series of restrictions against majoritarian acts. Just because a majority decides to criminalize a viewpoint which is embraced only by a minority doesn't make that prohibition acceptable. Quite the contrary.
In 2002, had a majority of people decided to criminalize anti-war views, would you have been fine with that on the ground that the ban was enacted by a majority?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteAs much as I admire and respect your views, I tend to think the reality is much shallower than your post suggests. Although, I agree with all of it; I do believe that there are basic tenants or principles of American civics that permeate even the blindest of ideologues, it seems to me that National Politicians have (unfortunately) evolved or devolved into a unique breed of political animal which has adapted to its insular environment.
By this, I mean to say, there seems to be a Pavlovian response to power. The Republicans have been salivating from the control they have achieved by marching lockstep with the Administration’s bell ringing. As long as there has been a political payoff as reward for their conditioned responses, the republican congress has been willing to heel to its master.
Now, when I said shallower in the beginning of my statement, I meant lack of complexity; Because that which drives the political animal has tended to be the basest of instinctual and innate forces.
I think your previously stated points about Darwinian survival ring more true than altruistic declarations of contest for constitutional respect. It seems more plausible that reality of the eventual and inevitable end to this Administration (as mandated by the 22nd Amendment) and potential power shift, is highlighting the real affect of ceding all congressional power to a unitary executive (which may not share their ideological views).
The Republicans have been conducting a dangerous experiment of party loyalty with the hopes of maintaining a stranglehold on their unbridled power. But due to corruptible influences of “absolute power”, the Republican Party is experiencing the pains of accountability. Perhaps the realization that they have, in perpetuity, relegated the congress to a second class body of proposition drafters, rather than a coequal branch with constitutional powers of checks for balance, has left them with the emasculating sensation of political castration…a useless troublesome organ that the Executive can simply bypass with the political appendectomy of Inherent powers.
Yes, the evolutionary drive to survive is strong. The prospect of President Hillary holding the scalpel, at the ready, to cutaway at congressional foreskin, leaves many Congressmen shuttering and clenching their crotch with both hands. An end to Republican hu(briss), if you will.
Hi Glenn, I clicked that link to Jane's but got a Dickfest instead of initial thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI didn't finish this thought in the last comment - Jane has 2 FDL posts - one entitled "Roots" and the other "Roots 2" regarding this project. I will post more about it later today.
But outside of these fringes and aberrational viewpoints, the notion that the Government can define a set of ideas which is criminally prohibited, and which can serve as a basis for criminal prosecution, is sharply distasteful and even infuriating to most Americans. Reading about a Government somewhere punishing people for their ideas simply violates core American beliefs about the proper role of government and what is or is not a legitimate exercise of state power.
ReplyDeleteLaws like the one in R.A.V. v. St. Paul are hardly rare or epiphenomenal, and are motivated by "good" people trying to do the "right thing". The intent of such laws is to go after the content of the speech, witgh specific "targets" in mind that most people find objectionsble if not wholly intolerable in public discourse; the laws themselves are merely reflections on how best to achieve this "noble" end without crossing over the bounds of the First Amendment.
Anyone being honest has to admit that we all would like, at some level, to be rid of nasty, hateful, and ignerrant stuff like Nazi/KKK spew, and find some attraction in whatever can be accomplished towards these ends, whether we succumb to such temptation or not. The Europeans find it a bit easier without that pesky First Amendment (which really was and remains a radical notion when you look at it closely enough), and rely on common sense or normal and prudential gummint restraint to check any tendency towards abuse. But you are right, Glenn, that the U.S. attitude is skewed a fair bit by the notion of distrust of gummint embodied in the founding of the country and in the character of the nation as it grew. But nonetheless, the underlying problem (what to do about "hate speech" and other stuff we take exception to for whatever reason) remains the same, whether here where we are constrained by our national upbringing and the BOR, or elsewhere, where they have a more permissive view of gummint.
Cheers,
Geez, you Americans really have blinders on when it comes to the idea that you, more than any other country, are the land of free speech. Sure it's an ideology that transcends your political spectrum, but it's an ideology nonetheless. And it doesn't bear out any better in practice than in any other free country like Canada or Great Britain. Need an example? Look at your pornography laws. Look at lawsuits that led to the "parental advisory" stickers on music albums. Look at the police in riot gear at any major demonstration and the "no-protest zones" they set up.
ReplyDeleteGeez, you Americans really have blinders on when it comes to the idea that you, more than any other country, are the land of free speech.
ReplyDeleteIn the United States, the government can't put you in jail for expressing an idea that it doesn't like. In Europe, the government can do that, and does it.
No matter what you want to say, that is a huge difference. Thank God we don't have the European idea that some people are so wise that they can actually make certain opinions criminal.
ReplyDeleteIntellectual consistency is much valued by some people, yourself for example. For others it is less important than emotional consistency.
Emotionally consistent people cleave to a feeling -- Bush is great, America is great, Christianity is great -- and any argument or evidence to the contrary is taken as an emotional attack.
That is a helpful way to look at it, thank you!
Thank God we don't have the European idea that some people are so wise that they can actually make certain opinions criminal.
Europeans just can't see things the way Americans do. They haven't been brought up since birth with the idea that rights are inherent, not concessions from the rest of society.
Wow, that is a GREAT essay. This whole issue, for me, is the greatest issue of our time. I have been outraged by many things this current administration has done, but the attempts to shred our Constitution has upset me beyond words.
ReplyDeleteI agree that this goes beyond party lines. This isn't a Them v Us issue. This really is an American issue.
Having said all that, there is a movement now to have another march on DC. The idea of another march turns some people off, because they feel it won't be covered so it won't matter. But it CAN matter if people from across the political spectrum can UNITE for one day against what is being done to out Constitution. It CAN matter if we reach for a goal of not thousands or even one million, but millionS. Millions of people who have decided this is no longer ok. That the executive branch needs checks and balances just like the other two branches. That we will unite to fight!
A group was just formed yesterday to work toward this. Those who are interested, please go join the discussion. Join the battle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TBTCMarch
I've said for a long time that if you could find a way somehow to talk to most people in this country and ask the right questions and then listen,you'd find:
ReplyDelete1)Most people want fiscal conservativism.They want tax money spent on infrastructure,decent schools for their kids,public services(fire,law enforcement,etc),programs to put people to work via training and other incentives,and so on.They don't like seeing tax money wasted or being given to already quite wealthy people.Add in that the current way of doing things is complicated on purpose to make it difficult to understand,and I think it intimidates and annoys people.I think you could get most people to agree that having a surplus is loads better than having a huge deficit though.Don't most of us have to live on some kind of budget?I don't think it's unreasonable to expect government to do the same,and spend wisely.
2)Most people are also more socially liberal.In other words,they don't want government in their personal lives,or at least as little as possible.I still believe that most people don't really care all that much what other people are doing on a personal level as long as it doesn't directly interfere with them.The religious far right would have you believe otherwise,but they are not a majority.They just have managed to puff themselves up to look alot bigger than they are(in addition to this Administration especially allowing them into places of power).
Of course this could be totally wrong on my part,I don't know for sure.But the hard core conservatives who voted for Bush I've talked to all have admitted(when you can manage to take the political partisanship out of the discussion,which is tough at times)that when you strip away the bullshit,we have lots more in common than not.I wish we could find a way to have those discussions alot more often and work with each other on this stuff.
This doesn't include the true far right and left factions,neither of those groups are going to budge an inch.But again,they aren't most people.Especially the actual "far left",who honestly have a much smaller effect on liberals and progessive politics than their far right counterparts do.Micheal Moore for example is not really even close to being far left,even though he's vilified as such.It's just that the bar has moved so right of center now that anyone to the left of say,James Dobson,looks like a radical.
I consider myself to be a Progressive Liberal Democrat,even though in some things(like fiscal responsibility)I tend to be more conservative.Trying to reach out to conservatives has been tough for me,it starts out hostile at times.Then you move on to some agreement,but it requires alot of patience and energy to get there sometimes.I think there's also alot of real distrust on the left side of center too,and for good reason.Trust is something that has to be earned,I think many on the right have forgotten that.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteWe agree on something! The State has no business prosecuting a citizen for his opinions, no matter how reprehensible.
However, it is more than a little stretch to compare that American consensus to your hobby horse about spying on the enemy.
Such spying has been going on since the dawn of the Republic, has the support of a solid majority of the citizenry and the vast majority of the elected representatives of your political party.
It is an interesting irony that earlier this month we saw the beginning of the Muslim outrage at the cartoons, which were initially published in Belgum, a Western European country. They were an example of in your face hateful. Likewise with your article they challenged humankind's values of tolerance and acceptance vs lockstep discourse.
ReplyDeleteBut these are the principles which are at stake here, and they are not even remotely ideological ones.
ReplyDeleteThat’s why your framing the issue this way is so dangerous to Bush supporters – they want to make it a partisan issue, an ideological issue, so they can play their “National Security” card that stipulates that only Bush can protect us from terrorism.
Ultimately, whoever frames this issue will be the winner. If Bush supporters are allowed to frame in terms of fear, they win. That’s why they must ignore your framing of it in terms of basic principles. They don’t want to have that argument, because they can’t win it.
Don Surber a Bush-cult blogger, demonstrated the depths of dishonesty necessary to promote the cult’s talking points on this issue, and is a good example of what we’re dealing with.
Looks like the administration has something to hide. Good. I hope it does. I hope the National Security Agency has great gigantic secrets that are so scary, they would melt your eyes off if you saw them….
I hope that our spies are so good that they know things they cannot tell Congress.
Because that is the National Security Agency’s job….
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act predates satellite phones, the Internet, email and cellphones. I question its constitutionality as well as its practicality. It needs to be brought into the 21st century…..
What Surber’s framing doesn’t explain is why these “secrets” must be hidden not only from Congress, but even from a secret court set up for this very purpose. Nor does it explain why advances in technology renders this oversight impossible and obsolete and why there was no attempt to bring FISA “up to date” until the administration was called upon it. (And that’s just the beginning.)
While making it a “partisan” issue seems to be their strongpoint, it also exposes a weakness which has been not fully exploited yet – the increasing number of Republicans who are having doubts about this program.
You’ll notice that their patriotism or National Security credentials are never attacked, only those of Democrats. Bush supporters simply ignore Republicans who are questioning Bush, and continue to pretend that this is a strictly partisan issue. Once it becomes bi-partisan and non-ideological they’re in deep trouble.
Such spying has been going on since the dawn of the Republic, has the support of a solid majority of the citizenry and the vast majority of the elected representatives of your political party.
ReplyDeleteBart, are you really unaware of the fact that NOBODY opposes "spying on the enemy."
The issue is NOT whether we will spy - it's whether the spying will be done with judicial oversight AS THE LAW REQUIRES, or in secret and with no oversight IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.
This distinction was quite clear the week after the scandal. Have you really not come to understand it yet, or are you ignoring it on purpose?
Several years ago, Roy Moore, by all accounts an unaccomplished local district judge out of Gadsden, Alabama placed a copy of the Ten Commendments in his courtroom. His refusal (stubborn insistence) that he need not remove this display from the courtroom brought him widespread publicity as did his rationale; i.e. the it was time put God back in the public square.
ReplyDeleteSubsequently, Roy Moore ran for Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court and won over a far more qualified candidate. He ran on one issue; i.e. that Christianity was under assault in this country and Christians were being persecuted.
In the dead of night, Moore installed a hugh monument of the Ten Commandments into the judicial building in Alabama's capital. The Southern Poverty Law Center sued for its removal in federal court and won. More refused to obey that order of the court even though as an attorney he was/is sworn to obey the law and orders of all courts. By eight to zero, the remaining members of the Alabama Supreme Court voted to remove Roy Moore from their midst. Today, Roy Moore is running in the Republican primary for governor. His candidacy based on the notion that Christians are being persecuted. Under the guise of this false presumption, some people (no longer many) in Alabama lend their support to a man who has broken the law and has done so openly.
Last year, I read a most interesting book: Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. It's a tale of the fundamentalist underpinnings of the Mormon Church. Having lived in Utah for a couple of years, I can attest to a phenomenon in that state that is instructive as to your argument for a return to core American values; i.e. respect for the law and Constitution. Krakauer explains in the context of a modern family murder, a characteristic of Mormon fundamentalism that is quite striking. Mormon fundamentalists believe in polygamy. Polygamy is of course against the law. Nevertheless, Mormon fundamentalist continue to break the law because (a) they feel that they are the victims of persecution and (b) they answer to a higher power.
Psychologist equate this type of belief system to narcissism. Even Krakauer notes that Bush and Rove exhibit narcissistic tendencies. Rumsfeld and Chaney certainly do. As we watch their actions, see their care to carefully screen their public appearances, their penchant for extreme secrecy, and their practice of cronyism over competence, it is not difficult to believe that they operate from a false assumption; i.e. that they are persecuted and answer to a higher power. In short, they believe they are above the law.
Reports indicate that Bush and company talked directly to the editor and the publisher of the NYT asking that they not print James Risen's story on the NSA program. They knew the public would recoil from their actions. While some will support Bush's actions (breaking the law), his number of supporters will diminish. Hence, this scandal will grow because Americans simply believe that no one, no matter how strong his believes, principles, stubborn insistance, etc. is above the law.
In the United States, the government can't put you in jail for expressing an idea that it doesn't like. In Europe, the government can do that, and does it.
ReplyDeleteLook, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, pal (as PFC Hudson would say) but in the US the government can put you in jail whenever it damn well likes. And I would question the idea that 'freedom of speech' is so well-established.
Let's talk about, say, the adult film industry. The regulation of broadcasting. The official secrecy culture. The restriction of protests. The illegality of encouraging troops to desert.
And, in terms of public attitudes, what percentage of people do you think would support, say, government indecency regulations? Outlawing of 'hate speech'?
However, neocons are becoming more and more rabid about what they term "anti-American" ideas. It's getting to the point that I wouldn't be surprised to see a move to create another Sedition Act. Too many American are willing to give up freedoms little by little in the name of "safety & security."
ReplyDeleteThis pessimism is tiresome, and it becomes a self-fulfilling propecy. If we keep telling ourselves that Americans are stupid drones who are easily manipulated by Karl Rove, we won't fight. Most Americans are open to being persuaded by compelling arguments. Anyone who wants to give up without fighting is a coward.
Look, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, pal (as PFC Hudson would say) but in the US the government can put you in jail whenever it damn well likes.
ReplyDeleteReally? So are there people in the U.S. who have been criminally convicted for expressing forbidden political opinions, they way there are in Europe?
And I would question the idea that 'freedom of speech' is so well-established.
Let's talk about, say, the adult film industry.
What about it? Pornography is legal in this country and is constitutionally protected.
The regulation of broadcasting. The official secrecy culture. The restriction of protests. The illegality of encouraging troops to desert.
In the United States, people cannot be criminally prosecuted for expressing their political views. In Europe, they can be. Do you deny that? Do you defend it?
And, in terms of public attitudes, what percentage of people do you think would support, say, government indecency regulations? Outlawing of 'hate speech'?
The good thing about being American is that it doesn't matter what percentage of people want to ban a political idea. We have a constitution that prevents that prohibition no matter how many people favor it.
Too bad you can't say the same for Europe or Canada, which is the point of this post.
An article in Prospect's March issue (online now), entitled Bush vs. Constitution, succinctly lays out many of your points here, sans the Austrian issue.
ReplyDeleteWhile there is, not surprisingly, agreement among Americans from the left, right, libertarian, and centrist camps on the opposition to such punitive censorship, I wonder what the agreement would be with regard to our (the U.S. government) getting involved in the laws of a sovereign, democratic country whose intrinsic public identity (guilt) is ineluctably imbued with this salient history, much like ours is imbued with racism.
I think the only thing that could make liberals turn against free speech for even a holocaust denier would be if a new preface by Noam Chomsky were to be added to one of Irving's books...
ReplyDeleteNice post, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteSome have suggested that our core principles may be changing.
I can think of one that amazes me.
Today, it seems, people believe that the ends justify the means.
It can be torture, spying, cheating in college, lying on your CV, lying about going to war, undermining those who disagree with you, etc., etc., as long as you 'win' in the end - be it getting information, getting a grade, getting a job, getting record profits, winning an election, whatever - as long as you win, the means don't matter.
Some of my colleagues, roughly 10-15 years younger than me, burst into a laughter/eye-rolling riot when we were discussing cheating and I said I had never cheated in college or grad school. "C'mon!" they said, "Never?! As in NOT EVER?!" Apparently that is hilarious.
Even little ends justify the means. At the local Starbucks, you can win a free coffee if you answer the trivia question of the day. I know three people that go look at the question, get the answer off their computer, then go to get a free coffee. All three have six-figure salaries. All three asked me why I didn't do the same.
Regardless of the issue, be it big or small, the ends now justify the means.
A grand jury has just indicted three Ohio men on charges of planning attacks on U.S. military personnel in Iraq, according to an indictment.
ReplyDeleteAccording to AP,
The suspects recruited others to train for a violent holy war against the United States and its allies in Iraq, the indictment said. The group traveled together to a shooting range to practice shooting guns and studied how to make explosives, the indictment said.
Who'd like to bet that it was through the illegal NSA wiretaps that these three were apprehended (or so we'll be told)?
Real time reporting on CNN, shows another day of brutal attacks and casualties in Bagdhad. However, another contrived report has an American unit discovering an IED factory; replete with an extemporaneous interview with a high ranking military official. Great stuff; if your a Goebbels fan.
There just is no better authority to discuss and tie together the themes here about democracy and its insufficiency, classical liberalism not being the same as conservatism, the follies of conservatism as practiced by the Bush GOP and etc. than F. A. Hayek in in his 1960 essay Why I am Not a Conservative (my emphasis):
ReplyDeleteLet me return, however, to the main point, which is the characteristic complacency of the conservative toward the action of established authority and his prime concern that this authority be not weakened rather than that its power be kept within bounds. This is difficult to reconcile with the preservation of liberty. In general, it can probably be said that the conservative does not object to coercion or arbitrary power so long as it is used for what he regards as the right purposes. He believes that if government is in the hands of decent men, it ought not to be too much restricted by rigid rules. Since he is essentially opportunist and lacks principles, his main hope must be that the wise and the good will rule - not merely by example, as we all must wish, but by authority given to them and enforced by them. Like the socialist, he is less concerned with the problem of how the powers of government should be limited than with that of who wields them; and, like the socialist, he regards himself as entitled to force the value he holds on other people.
…..
This difference between liberalism and conservatism must not be obscured by the fact that in the United States it is still possible to defend individual liberty by defending long-established institutions. To the liberal they are valuable not mainly because they are long established or because they are American but because they correspond to the ideals which he cherishes.
……
Admittedly, it was only when power came into the hands of the majority that further limitations of the power of government was thought unnecessary. In this sense democracy and unlimited government are connected. But it is not democracy but unlimited government that is objectionable, and I do not see why the people should not learn to limit the scope of majority rule as well as that of any other form of government. At any rate, the advantages of democracy as a method of peaceful change and of political education seem to be so great compared with those of any other system that I can have no sympathy with the antidemocratic strain of conservatism. It is not who governs but what government is entitled to do that seems to me the essential problem.
……
It may well be asked whether the name [conservative] really matters so much. In a country like the United States, which on the whole has free institutions and where, therefore, the defense of the existing is often a defense of freedom, it might not make so much difference if the defenders of freedom call themselves conservatives, although even here the association with the conservatives by disposition will often be embarrassing. Even when men approve of the same arrangements, it must be asked whether they approve of them because they exist or because they are desirable in themselves.
Again, that last was written in 1960. Hayek would disdain what passes for conservatism from the Bushites. It bears little resemblance to classical liberalism; to defend Bush conservatism is the opposite of defending individual liberty and the rule of law.
Glenn writes:
ReplyDeleteYeah - it [Irving's convicition]symbolizes the fact that there are still people who believe that the are blessed with such unchallengable wisdom that they are actually in a position to ban the expression of opinions and ideas they dislike and to put people in prison for expressing them.
And Irving's being locked up in a hole for three years, deprived of his autonomy, kept under armed guard, told when and how to eat and piss -- that he will all experience as "symbolic."
Bart sez:
ReplyDeleteHowever, it is more than a little stretch to compare that American consensus to your hobby horse about spying on the enemy.
Such spying has been going on since the dawn of the Republic, has the support of a solid majority of the citizenry and the vast majority of the elected representatives of your political party.
See what I mean, Glenn?
Bart: The problem (which I'm sure you'd divine if you thought about it a bit) is that "the enemy" is a pretty slippery concept. I'd note that the original FISA laws were enacted in part in response to the Nixon administration, which had a curious thing called an "enemies list" (which, of course, they spied on). No one here is suggesting (although the RW Mighty Wurlitzer has been shouting it from the rooftops elsewhere that this is what we suggest) that surveillance should be banned, nor is it, either for foreign surveillance or even for pedestrian surveillance of petty criminal activity. What folks like Glenn are insisting on is that there be a reason (and an appropriate threshold for action) for initiating such intrusions, and that there be someone independent to oversee this, and to check to make sure that these tools are not being abused. Hardly a novel concept; it's written into the Fourth Amendment in language of considerable precision.
You may choose to disagree with the threshold necessary in this troubled times (although I think you'd be hard pressed to say why we now need to slip our standards when we've done so well in the past with the ones we've currently got). But it's hard arguing with the requirement of accountability. But give it a go if you seriously think that Dubya's right in what he's doing: Why should there be no oversight, and no questioning, particularly of a maladministration that finds the outing of bothersome NOCs working on reducing WoMD threats perfectly acceptable, but who won't disclose who participated in energy policy meetings ... not to mention their unarguably inept (if not malign) performance WRT the "intelligence" on Iraq? Maybe you trust in a Big Daddy, but on what basis would you ever trust this particular one we have?
Cheers,
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletei was in england in the eighties when we were working on the charter movement, which was basically to install a bill of rights in the english system. it never went anywhere.
ReplyDeletemore on the shocking wrongness of what glenn says in this post at my blog, as he gives the right way more credit than it deserves. way more. http://anothergreenworld.blogspot.com
Roy said...
ReplyDeleteThe issue is NOT whether we will spy - it's whether the spying will be done with judicial oversight AS THE LAW REQUIRES, or in secret and with no oversight IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.
This distinction was quite clear the week after the scandal. Have you really not come to understand it yet, or are you ignoring it on purpose?
I have 5 federal cases which have found that the Constitution gives the President power to conduct warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the United States and one by the FISA court of review which observes in dicta that FISA would not affect this power.
No one here has been able to come up with a single case to the contrary.
Who exactly is ignoring the law?
ommzms said...
ReplyDeleteA grand jury has just indicted three Ohio men on charges of planning attacks on U.S. military personnel in Iraq, according to an indictment.
According to AP,
The suspects recruited others to train for a violent holy war against the United States and its allies in Iraq, the indictment said. The group traveled together to a shooting range to practice shooting guns and studied how to make explosives, the indictment said.
Who'd like to bet that it was through the illegal NSA wiretaps that these three were apprehended (or so we'll be told)?
These people may well have been identified through the NSA program, but the evidence gathered against them to support the indictment was most likely gained under a standard or FISA warrant.
The courts generally make a distinction between requiring a warrant for criminal matters and not requiring a warrant for intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents.
According to the WP, Justice has asked for FISA warrants on about ten enemy agents identified by the NSA program each year.
These defendants may be among those agents identified by NSA, but I doubt we will ever know.
I have 5 federal cases which have found that the Constitution gives the President power to conduct warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the United States and one by the FISA court of review which observes in dicta that FISA would not affect this power.
ReplyDeleteWhich five cases are you referring to? (We've already discussed the "dicta" case in an earlier thread, and chances are, we discussed your other cases in earlier threads too.)
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart: The problem (which I'm sure you'd divine if you thought about it a bit) is that "the enemy" is a pretty slippery concept. I'd note that the original FISA laws were enacted in part in response to the Nixon administration, which had a curious thing called an "enemies list" (which, of course, they spied on).
al Qaeda and its allied groups are an enemy under the AUMF and in fact.
If you can give me any evidence of Bush using the power of the executive against domestic political opponents ala Nixon and Clinton reviewing FBI files, I will lead your impeachment band.
Glenn are insisting on is that there be a reason (and an appropriate threshold for action) for initiating such intrusions, and that there be someone independent to oversee this, and to check to make sure that these tools are not being abused. Hardly a novel concept; it's written into the Fourth Amendment in language of considerable precision.
If I am not mistaken, Glenn argues that the 4th Amendment and FISA require that the President get warrants to conduct this NSA surveillance.
Two problems with this...
1) The federal courts have universally held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from carrying out warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the US and the FISA court of review pretty clearly indicated that it does not believe that FISA requires warrants under those circumstances.
2) Next, requiring warrants would in fact make this NSA program next to impossible to perform. NSA is surveilling international calls in an out of numbers captured from al Qaeda. The problem is that mere possession of the number by al Qaeda doesn't provide probable cause to believe that an al Qaeda agent is using that number under FISA or the 4th Amendment.
Glenn, I think you've found a topic that speaks directly to the heart of what's going on in America right now. Are there values that we hold as uniquely and essentially American? To me, the concomittant discussion is: What are we willing to sacrifice for them?
ReplyDeleteThe cultural shift that has occurred in the US over the last few years in the name of so-called National Security has been fueled by fear. Fear breeds anger and isolationism. As I've mentioned here before I was raised in a military family in a state that values things like individual freedom -- there are more separatists than you can shake a stick at in Oregon. One of the central questions that has informed my life is: what am I willing to die for? Growing up as a non-White American I've been in situations where prudence demanded my silence, I've also been in situations were the "better part of valor" is to speak up and take the beating. I've done both. I think what feeds the ideological divide at this point, is that liberals and progressives have failed to draw the line in the sand and say "I would die to protect this freedom". Military folk (a subculture of its own in America), and to a degree religious fundamentalists, generate cultural values around this central question. For God and For Country is a Marine Corps motto and expresses the core value informing the subculture. For religious conservatives the notion that Jesus died for "our" sins sets a powerful example of sacrifice.
One of the reasons films are so powerful is their ability to distill a value into an archetype (the ne'er do well playboy, the reluctant hero). The GOP has done an excellent job of casting Bush as the charismatic cowboy, the Christian Warrior whose job is to play reluctant but willing protector of the American Way of Life. A "failure" of more progressive, inclusive politicos is to understand this and a continued insistence on approaching the debate as a rowdy group of individuals.
People read in symbols, short-handing as much as possible in order to process the world around them. John Kerry's failure to connect with the American people is that he was unable to discard his image as upper-class patrician and recast himself as an engaged everyman American. I think any discussion of American values necessarily demands an understanding of who "we" (and I include myself in the group of we trying to bring BushCo down) are. At one point in a previous thread there was mention of naming the campaign. I don't think creating some opposing nomenclature to Operation Enduring Freedom is necessary. If anything, I think bringing the ideological values we're trying to export abroad back into the mix in domestic politics is what we are really trying to do. Allowing BushCo to continue to "own" concepts of Patriotism, Democracy, Sacrifice, and Humility is what is prepetuating this polarization along party lines. Screw the BS, I'm a damn American, I read the Constitution (and the dang Bible, for that matter). In the way that women organized around the concept of Take Back the Night in response to violence against us, and people of color stood up for our Civil Rights in previous decades, progressives, liberals and other disenfranchised Americans need to stand up and reclaim the values neo-cons and fundies are claiming as their own.
But, and I think this is important, it starts with letting the opposition know that we understand there are things worth dying for, that's the principal behind the American Revolution, the Civil War, World War, I and II, and it's what framed every martial conflict we've been involved in (duh) since, especially this War on Terror. Not what is worth arguing and getting passionately heated about, but what is worth sacrificing and dying for -- it's tough to trump death with an intellectual treatise.
I'm not necessarily advocating that we lose are minds and start waving pistols, I'm spicing the pot and suggesting we relanguage our struggle in terms of the greatest of American values: sacrifice in the name of justice, liberty, and freedom.
I have 5 federal cases which have found that the Constitution gives the President power to conduct warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the United States……
ReplyDeleteWho exactly is ignoring the law?
With no oversight, how do we know that surveillance is restricted only to foreign groups and their agents? How do we know that innocent Americans, having nothing to do with such groups, are not under surveillance. How do we know that some future President will not use these unlimited powers (with no oversight) against their political enemies?
Is Lindsey Graham ‘ignoring the Law’? Why is he concerned? He is pro-terrorist? Is he blinded by Bush-hatred? Why haven’t Bush supporters cited these cases to prove that this whole inquiry is irrelevant?
If the law is so clear, why is Spector proceeding with hearings? Why are all these Republicans and people who have supported Bush for years, all of sudden, as you say, ‘ignoring the law’?
Inquiring minds, Bart…….
Bart:If you can give me any evidence of Bush using the power of the executive against domestic political opponents ala Nixon and Clinton reviewing FBI files, I will lead your impeachment band
ReplyDeleteIn the event Nixonian political spying were in fact occurring, one may still not be able to provide you your evidence. That's sort of the point of oversight.
Next, requiring warrants would in fact make this NSA program next to impossible to perform.
How would you know that?
NSA is surveilling international calls in an out of numbers captured from al Qaeda.
Or that?
The problem is that mere possession of the number by al Qaeda doesn't provide probable cause to believe that an al Qaeda agent is using that number under FISA or the 4th Amendment.
Now you're just jerking our chains, right?
The Film Diva said...
ReplyDeleteAllowing BushCo to continue to "own" concepts of Patriotism, Democracy, Sacrifice, and Humility is what is prepetuating this polarization along party lines. Screw the BS, I'm a damn American, I read the Constitution (and the dang Bible, for that matter). In the way that women organized around the concept of Take Back the Night in response to violence against us, and people of color stood up for our Civil Rights in previous decades, progressives, liberals and other disenfranchised Americans need to stand up and reclaim the values neo-cons and fundies are claiming as their own.
But, and I think this is important, it starts with letting the opposition know that we understand there are things worth dying for, that's the principal behind the American Revolution, the Civil War, World War, I and II, and it's what framed every martial conflict we've been involved in (duh) since, especially this War on Terror. Not what is worth arguing and getting passionately heated about, but what is worth sacrificing and dying for -- it's tough to trump death with an intellectual treatise.
I'm not necessarily advocating that we lose are minds and start waving pistols, I'm spicing the pot and suggesting we relanguage our struggle in terms of the greatest of American values: sacrifice in the name of justice, liberty, and freedom.
You are in the wrong party...
The Dems are trying to run Joe Lieberman out of the party for saying the same things you just posted.
Anyone who argues that the Army is "broken" and the war is "lost" after 2000 KIA hasn't got the vaguest concept of the sacrifices involved in a real shooting ground war.
Mr. Bush didn't need to label the Dems the party of cut and run to have that image appear in most people's minds. Since we cut and ran in Vietnam, the Dems have had that image in the mind if the American voter.
Dean, Gore, Pelousi, Kennedy, Reed and Murtha have done very little to dispel that perception.
glenn,
ReplyDeleteyour description of the relevant austrian law, and the immediate comparison to general "anti-hate speech" law, seesm to me to be rather shallow and hasty.
considering that nazi ideology consumed austria and its neighbor in large part through massive propagandizing, and nearly destroyed their peoples through its policies and the retribution such policies engendered, i don't think, as a self preservation measure, it is so crazy for austria to have such laws.
perhaps if American losses in World War II were magnified by 10 to 20, and if every, every, urban center in the United States was destroyed a short 60 years ago, we would not be so seemingly absolute on free speech.
and i say seemingly, because, as you know, there are many areas where speech is limited.
is austria not allowed to find national self preservation as important as, say, the reputations of its private individuals?
Bart claims: 1) The federal courts have universally held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from carrying out warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the US and the FISA court of review pretty clearly indicated that it does not believe that FISA requires warrants under those circumstances.
ReplyDeleteThe federal courts, actually, have left this unsettled as to the 4th Am. But as to FISA, the matter is clear: Bush is violating a criminal statute, a statute which binds him per Youngstown. Nine words of ambiguous dicta from the FISA court do not change that.
Justice Thomas in his Hamdi dissent insisted that Congress may legislate in areas of national security, and, indeed, he strongly suggested that he would vote with the Hamdi majority if Congress had legislated protections for detainees such as Mr. Hamdi -- notwithstanding the President's inherent authority to deal with enemy combatants.
Your legal analysis is simply wrong.
Bart is the existence proof that Bush's approval rating will never go to zero. The objections that he repeats ad nauseum have been answered here in these comments numerous times. Yet it never sinks in. You patient souls who try to educate him would best spend your time focusing on other issues. Ignoring him would be bliss.
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteOther than your questioning of the NSA wiretaps, this is one of the few posts of yours that I agree w/. The lack of regard for free speech seems to be increasing & has infected even our educational system as well. You cannot talk to or about God at school, also known as prayer. Some schools won’t allow Christmas trees, Christmas Carols or snowmen (real or otherwise) as an expression of faith, gratitude or seasonal cheer. The President of Harvard, while repeating scientific information regarding the differences between male & female brains, synaptic functioning & the possible educational repercussions was later reprimanded & his dismissal was called for. Hell, conservatives cannot even give a speech or lecture on most college campuses w/o fear of being assaulted, rudely interrupted or having a pie thrown in their face. Did you know that some metropolitan newspapers have refused to print controversial cartoons because some might find them offensive, though that hasn’t stop the NYT’s editorial writers, much less Maureen Dowd from being published, ever. Hell, people even publish Ann Coulter or so I’m told… & we all know she is nothing but hate, hate, hate. So, I think you’ll agree, given that if you, w/ all your years of experience w/ free speech litigation & me, an atheist conservative, can agree on something so transparently true, let’s bring Jesus back to our schools & let children express the Constitutionally protected rights of free expression & religion combined. Because if you are against one form of speech, as you have proven, you are against them all. I’m sure our Christian brothers & sisters will agree as well as my fellow atheists too! Let’s all unite under the banner of Jesus as a proclamation of our solidarity to free speech, as long as I don’t have to eat that styrofoam tasting bread & accept him as my lord & savior, count me on board!
Bart, I hate to get drawn in by your bait, but can't let this pass:
ReplyDeleteIf you can give me any evidence of Bush using the power of the executive against domestic political opponents ala Nixon and Clinton reviewing FBI files, I will lead your impeachment band.
Without judicial review of the NSA wiretaps, how can anyone possibly know who and who is not being tapped?
That's the whole point!
Try answering this:
If there is no judicial oversight, what stops the President from wiretapping his political opponents?
The answer is: nothing. Nothing stops him from wiretapping his political opponents without judicial oversight. That is the definition of unfettered power, and regardless of any constitutional or legal arguments, I don't believe Americans want a president to have unfettered, absolute power.
Excellent post Glenn, one of your best. I've linked "We Have A Right To Be Wrong".
ReplyDeleteGlen,
ReplyDeleteI am sick of people insinuating that Canada is some sort of soviet-style tyrannical country because it in not like the U.S., people like Bill O'Reilly, Tucker Carlson and The New Republic have pushed this line to the extreme. It bothers me to see you marginalize Canadian (and European) society by saying only “ handfuls of people on the Far Left” support such laws, I didn't realize that Canada and Europe were on the “fringes” .
We have an elected body that as far as I know universally accepts Canada's anti hate propaganda laws. We have freedom of speech in this country, I cannot be prosecuted for having racist, pro-Hitler etc. ideas and telling people about my views. If I was to profess my ideas publicly, in such a way that I would incite violence I could be sent to jail. Also remember that we have jury trials in this country, it is the people that decide whether or not hate speech is illegal.
There are safeguards in place that determine what is illegal hate propaganda and what is protected free speech, here is a list of conditions under which a person cannot be convicted:
The hate speech was expressed during a private conversation.
If the person can establish that the statements made are true.
If, "in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a religious subject." (This for example protects churches for preaching anti-gay beliefs.)
If the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, and if, on reasonable grounds, the person believed them to be true. This would give additional protection for the clergy.
If he described material that might generate feelings of hatred for an identifiable group "for the purpose of removal" of that hatred.
If the provincial Attorney General refused to give permission. (The Attorney General's consent is required before charges can be laid.)
Just because your laws are American does not make them the most correct laws on earth. The “I'm American therefore I'm correct” syndrome is one of the reasons why the U.S. (as a country) is disliked around the world.
I understand that it seems like I am harping on a small point in a blog post about something else but I need to defend my country from uninformed criticism.
Bart: Lieberman is a target because he is failing to protect party values in pursuit of the Vichy Dem survival agenda.
ReplyDeleteAnon Canadian: This Canadian Academic has had a less than pleasant experience with your hate speech laws. Whatever one thinks of his research and claimed findings, he should not be impeded from such lines of inquiry or harassed into silence.
ReplyDeleteThe U.S. is less enlightened than Canada and parts of Europe in other areas. But it is a beacon of free speech.
Glenn, you argue for the Rule of Law. Both you and Irving have an argument with the Austrian law, to which he pleas guilty, not with his punishment. And you argue about what the State shouldn't be able to do to its citizens. Irving isn't an Austrian. Both you and Irving react to a law with which you don't agree, which you believe should be invalid.
ReplyDeleteI wish you had analyzed the essence of being American and left the Irving case out of it.
As a political strategy I understand what you're saying and I think you are right that there's potential here for massive swing against Bush's imperial presidency based on this issue.
ReplyDeleteBut as an analysis, what you are saying, especially the free speech issue, is so missionary in its premises. That is, everyone should be like us or they are inferior.
So you didn't say, "we don't have those restrictions here, and shouldn't have them," and then just leave it at that. You are saying, other countries who have those restrictions are wrong and bad. Based on zero knowledge of history, circumstances, values, etc., or if with that knowledge, then assuming that those factors are irrelevant in the face of this universal US "truth".
This is maybe another one of these pan-american ideas. The US and Americans are superior and its values should be adopted by all other countries, otherwise they are inferior and bad and wrong and like the Soviets (or whatever other enemy you want to insert here).
This sounds so strikingly like christian missionaries who damn the heathens to hell if they don't accept Jesus that it's kind of scary.
But I would guess this is another "value" that unites left and right: the moral crusading missionary stance towards the rest of the world.
When I say Canada (and parts of Europe)is more enlightened in some areas, I mean such issues as drug policy and gay rights. Further, I didn't read Glenn'spost as being an exercise in American triumphalism, and I don't hold to such notions either; but in the area of speech, I don't apologize for our being a leader.
ReplyDeleteLater on today CNN is showing a documentary called The Insurgency. I suggest everyone watch it.
ReplyDeleteThe producer shows a clip from an insurgent who says "Resistance is a natural reaction on the part of any country which is occupied."
Do we all believe that? Is that a "core American value"? Would we resist if our country were invaded?
We honor the French Resistance fighters as the heroes, don't we?
If Patrick Henry had a relative in Italy who supported Henry's efforts in the Revolution, would that make that person a traitor to Italy? A terrorist?
Please explain to me how a person in this country who is from Iraq who feels that his country has been unjustly invaded and occupied (as many here, including Cindy Sheehan, do) who attempts to help the war effort, over there, is a terrorist.
Maybe he is, but I can't make the logical case for it.
If China invaded Canada to secure more oil, and Canadian people in China supported the Canadians who resisted, would we condemn those people as terrorists?
These questions do not arise, of course, when a country goes to war after it has been attacked.
But if we initiate force against another country, those who fight the resistance and their supporters are terrorists?
Bart said:
ReplyDelete2) Next, requiring warrants would in fact make this NSA program next to impossible to perform. NSA is surveilling international calls in an out of numbers captured from al Qaeda. The problem is that mere possession of the number by al Qaeda doesn't provide probable cause to believe that an al Qaeda agent is using that number under FISA or the 4th Amendment.
Bart your laboring under a misconception that only known Al Qaida numbers are being put under surveilance.
From the New York Times the day after the initial story broke:
December 21, 2005, Wednesday
By JAMES RISEN AND ERIC LICHTBLAU (NYT); National Desk
-A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.
They cannot be targeting only targeting Al Qaida calls and at the same time be intercepting purely domestic calls by accident.
And further:
In another development in the domestic spying saga, the ACLU has said that documents it obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request show that the FBI has used counterterrorism resources to monitor domestic animal and environmental rights organizations without sufficient evidence [press release] that the groups are engaging in or supporting violent action. The ACLU says this FBI monitoring of advocacy groups, including People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and Greenpeace, who have not broken the law "has a chilling effect on the vibrant tradition of political dissent in this country." The FBI insists that it has conducted its investigations in accordance to US law and Justice Department regulations and that the ACLU has mischaracterized passing references in FBI files.
And yet further:
Washington, D.C., March 11, 2005 - The largest U.S. spy agency warned the incoming Bush administration in its "Transition 2001" report that the Information Age required rethinking the policies and authorities that kept the National Security Agency in compliance with the Constitution's 4th Amendment prohibition on "unreasonable searches and seizures" without warrant and "probable cause," according to an updated briefing book of declassified NSA documents posted today on the World Wide Web.
Wiretapping the Internet inevitably picks up mail and messages by Americans that would be "protected" under legal interpretations of the NSA's mandate in effect since the 1970s, according to the documents that were obtained through the Freedom of Information Act by Dr. Jeffrey Richelson, senior fellow of the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
Bart said:
"If you can give me any evidence of Bush using the power of the executive against domestic political opponents ala Nixon and Clinton reviewing FBI files, I will lead your impeachment band."
The problem is Bart that without judicial and congressional no one Knows whether they are or not. Which is the reason such oversite is required.
I meant "those who SUPPORT the resistance" in my previous post.
ReplyDeleteReference my previous post about the narcissistic phenomenon expressed below; i.e. note pmain believes he/she and fellow Americans are being "persecuted" for their beliefs.
ReplyDeletepmain said...
Glenn,
Other than your questioning of the NSA wiretaps, this is one of the few posts of yours that I agree w/. The lack of regard for free speech seems to be increasing & has infected even our educational system as well. You cannot talk to or about God at school, also known as prayer. Some schools won’t allow Christmas trees, Christmas Carols or snowmen (real or otherwise) as an expression of faith, gratitude or seasonal cheer....
I am forever amazed at the silliness of these arguments. I wish one "true believer" like this one would tell me: Who is currently stopping anyone from saying a prayer? This is the Roy Moore syndrome practiced on the right. It's a boogeyman or a troll under the local bridge theory. This monster comes out at night and stops good, Christian little kids from saying their prayers, silently.
After thinking much about your post I come to the unfortunate conclusion that American "values" do not transcend ideology. It is one of the primary dividing issues between liberals and conservatives, that is principled vs unprincipled behavior.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason conservatives are even discussing the NSA scandal is because they are afraid (and rightly so) that they might be spied upon themselves. There is no principle involved here.
If Bill Clinton had done this most liberals would be calling for his head. Even the silly Monica scandal had many liberals turn on him. Most didn't call for his removal for obvious reasons but they didn't hesitate to voice their disgust with his behavior. Where are the equivilent voices on the Right now?
A belief in a core set of American political values doesn't transcend ideology, it defines it.
MDS Writes:
ReplyDeleteThe last time "In re: Sealed Case" was brought up, the meaning of "dicta" had to be explained using single-syllable words, and much larger swathes of the decision were directly quoted to point out that Byron York's stupid or willfully mendacious (not mutually exclusive) article in National Review was, to use the legal term, full of shit. This is a decision that upholds the precisely delineated requirements of FISA as amended, and asserts that it provides adequate Fourth Amendment protections.
This is hilarious. MDS has a case of wishful thinking so virulent that he should be quarantined.
MDS makes his first mistake calling Byron York "stupid or willfully mendacious." Perhaps MDS doesn't know who Byron York is, or anything about him, but the fact York wrote about In Re: Sealed Case at this time should be read as an important signal to both the supporters and opponents of the president's NSA program policy.
York's article should be read carefully, especially the beginning in which he describes who was in the room to plan the legal strategy to challenge FISA's refusal to apply the (at the time) recently passed Patriot Act provisions to the 1978 FISA statute. The participants include some of the most distinguished and powerful legal experts in the nation. These men formulated the strategy to challenge the FISA court's ruling in front of the Court of Review, and they won that challenge.
For MDS to claim that the Court of Review's ruling "upholds the precisely delineated requirements of the FISA as amended" fails to mention that it is the interpretation of those "precisely delineated requirements" that matters. What the Court of Review decided, and what York reported, is that the president has inherent authority to conduct wireless surveillance of foreign telecommunications at his will, and that the FISA court cannot get in his way. This is exactly what he is doing, and what he will continue to do, despite the hysterical objections that Glenn Greenwald and his acolytes have been harping about for days on end.
One other thing about the York piece. The men who assembled to discuss the FISA Court of Review strategy are and continue to give crucial advice to the president regarding the political strategy he should follow to ensure his NSA program remains intact once this controversy is resolved. For anyone here or anyone else to underestimate their ability to successfully promulgate this strategy is...either stupid or willfully malicious.
I believe people who condemn this action are confusing political speech with people who are trying to deny reality.
ReplyDeleteThe point of democratic government is to ensure the peaceful transition of power. In this regard, the Nazis were not a legitimate political party, as they were dedicated to destroying the democratic system. Likewise with the Communists.
There exist limits on political speech even here in the US; some crazy guy once said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I tend to agree.
Zack said...
ReplyDeleteBart: I have 5 federal cases which have found that the Constitution gives the President power to conduct warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the United States……
Who exactly is ignoring the law?
Zack: With no oversight, how do we know that surveillance is restricted only to foreign groups and their agents?
Congress has full oversight authority with subpoena power and the ability to put administration personnel under oath at hearings. Congress has asked for and received closed door briefings on the program in question and there was nothing to keep them from asking about any other program being run by the executive.
How do we know that innocent Americans, having nothing to do with such groups, are not under surveillance.
To start, there probably have been. However, there is no evidence that we are targeting anyone but al Qaeda and the people to which they are communicating. The leakers, the WH and the press have been describing essentially the same program.
How do we know that some future President will not use these unlimited powers (with no oversight) against their political enemies?
What unlimited powers? The courts have ruled on most of this a quarter century ago and defined the executive's powers.
Is Lindsey Graham ‘ignoring the Law’? Why is he concerned?
He is attempting to preserve his branch of government's exercise of authority in this area.
Why haven’t Bush supporters cited these cases to prove that this whole inquiry is irrelevant?
Justice, knowledgeable press and the entire conservative blogosphere have cited to this precedent and the opponents of this program have attempted and failed to distinguish these cases.
If the law is so clear, why is Spector proceeding with hearings?
Specter is giving Congress a fig leaf to stand behind by holding hearings and then assisting in the development of legislation which will ratify this program. Congress will claim that it is exercising its authority and the WH will claim that Congress is merely ratifying executive authority.
>But if we initiate force against another country, those who support the resistance and their supporters are terrorists?<
ReplyDeleteWell they would have to be.
Otherwise the cognitive dissonance caused by the fact that we were the aggressors would cause otherwise reasonable people's heads to explode.
jimbo: you are incorrect, and I present myself as a counterexample. I am very conservative, and expect my employees, the public servants to uphold the principles this country holds dear.
ReplyDeleteJust because a certain faction has tried to redefine what "conservatism" is, doesn't necessarily make it so.
Arno, journalist Ann Applebaum, author of Gulag – A History, approvingly reviews Finkelstein’s book The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering and she writes:
ReplyDeleteIn it, Finkelstein argues not only that the Washington Holocaust museum is inappropriate, but that the majority of people who now claim to be Holocaust survivors are fakes; that the American Jewish institutions dedicated to squeezing compensation from European governments and industries are keeping most of the money for themselves; that David Irving is a nauseating man but a good historian; that the insistence on the Holocaust's uniqueness has suppressed rational discussion of the history of the events themselves.
Now, Finkelstein is on the left, but he values Irving’s scholarship on the Holocaust. For even approving of Irving as a “good” historian, Finkelstein could put himself in legal jeopardy in some countries. That is wrong.
David Irving has ideas, ideas that have political implications. It is wrong to lock up David Irving for his scholarly conclusions. That would be true even if his scholarship were not esteemed by a left-winger such as Finkelstein, but that fact illustrates how speech we might all find odious can still contribute to a debate among serious people. Speech for all is chilled by supressing the political speech of any.
Sean said...
ReplyDeleteBart,
Please give citations or links to the precedent, otherwise you got nothin'.
I have posted these nearly a dozen time before, but here goes again...
See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
And if the problem with the NSA program is acting on information that is not quite probable cause, why did the administration oppose changes to FISA that would have reduced the standard?
1) They are unwilling to concede their constitutional power by admitting that FISA controls this activity.
2) The standard for warrants is probable cause. What good is the warrant if it ends up being based only upon a reasonable suspicion?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNext, requiring warrants would in fact make this NSA program next to impossible to perform.
How would you know that?
I used to be a prosecutor who drafted affidavits to obtain warrants. If the police arrested a member of the local mafia and found his little black book with telephone numbers, there mere fact that this dirtbag possesses the number does not give me probable cause to tap that number. The number could belong to his dry cleaner.
NSA is surveilling international calls in an out of numbers captured from al Qaeda.
Or that?
Have you been reading the NYT and WP articles which have blown this program?
Bart:
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
[Arne]: Bart: The problem (which I'm sure you'd divine if you thought about it a bit) is that "the enemy" is a pretty slippery concept. I'd note that the original FISA laws were enacted in part in response to the Nixon administration, which had a curious thing called an "enemies list" (which, of course, they spied on).
al Qaeda and its allied groups are an enemy under the AUMF and in fact.
You miss the point, of course. The question is not whether al Qaeda is an enemey, but rather whether the people that Dubya's snooping are al Qaeda. Which is why some kind of oversight is needed.
If you can give me any evidence of Bush using the power of the executive against domestic political opponents ala Nixon and Clinton reviewing FBI files, I will lead your impeachment band.
If you can give me evidence of Clinton reviewing FBI files, I'd say you were barking up the wrong tree in impeaching him for a blowjob. 8^P
Noxin's crimes went much further than just reading what was in someone's FBI files, of course. But you knew that, didn't you?
[Arne]: .... Glenn are insisting on is that there be a reason (and an appropriate threshold for action) for initiating such intrusions, and that there be someone independent to oversee this, and to check to make sure that these tools are not being abused. Hardly a novel concept; it's written into the Fourth Amendment in language of considerable precision.
If I am not mistaken, Glenn argues that the 4th Amendment and FISA require that the President get warrants to conduct this NSA surveillance.
Yep. Right there in the Fourth Amendment. You should read it some time.
Two problems with this...
1) The federal courts have universally held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from carrying out warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the US and the FISA court of review pretty clearly indicated that it does not believe that FISA requires warrants under those circumstances.
Oh, bosh. See what others have said here. Or, for that matter, why don't you read where Glenn has addressed this nonsense before, and disposed of it? See here for comments on U.S. v. U.S. District Court 1972) (this is pre-FISA, but relevant, as it is cited by subsequent courts). See also here.
RWers, of course, have decided to start citing dicta (and even worse, footnotes) in opinions as being somehow being "holdings" (as you seem to indicate above with the word "held").
But let's be fair: Trot out the cases and cite the holdings for these decisions you claim "universally" uphold warrantless searches in the United States. And we'll see if you have any kind of clue as to what a "holding" actually is....
I've seen you singing this same song for a month or so now, and I can understand why Glenn, having addressed your "arguments" -- and seeing you refusing to hear what he, I, and others have said -- doesn't bother responding to you any more.
2) Next, requiring warrants would in fact make this NSA program next to impossible to perform. NSA is surveilling international calls in an out of numbers captured from al Qaeda....
So what? FWIW, there should be no problem in intercepting any calls from known al Qaeda to other parties. Kind of like there's no problem in the FBI listening in to what you say if a mobster or other "target" subject to a legal warrant happens to call you, even if it's to order a pizza. They don't need a warrant naming you to listen, and if you say anything that could incriminate you, it can be used against you in a court of law.
... The problem is that mere possession of the number by al Qaeda doesn't provide probable cause to believe that an al Qaeda agent is using that number under FISA or the 4th Amendment.
If there's probable cause to think the person whose number is in an al Qaeda phone book is an al Qaeda agent, shouldn't be a problem to get a warrant. If there isn't (say, it's the number of a public N.Y. airport taxi service), then there isn't probable cause without more. That's the way it is. Not sure why you see a problem with this.
Cheers,
bart's position boils down to blind trust.
ReplyDeleteHe trusts the administration, with its sterling reputation, to do the right thing under any circumstances.
He trusts them when they say the WP "blew" the program, when they say no Americans have been monitored, and when they say they have always had this authority, when they clearly just came up with these arguments after getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
Every single statment he makes assumes all those things are true.
There is no arguing with that kind of "logic."
I know that you-all have Democrats to elect, but that doesn’t mean that you cannot lighten up a bit and consider aspects of your crusade in a different light. Mr. Greenwald and Hypatia have taken great pains to prove that finding Bush guilty upon his impeachment is a slam dunk because the law is clear. Check out these attorneys (from whose ranks judges are selected):
ReplyDelete“Thom Lambert charges... the ABA [American Bar Association] with ‘utter hypocrisy regarding the rule of law’ in voting at the same meeting to require President Bush to follow the law with respect to the terrorist surveillance program while ordering law schools to ignore state laws prohibiting racial preferences in law school admissions and hiring:...”
prunes said...
ReplyDeletebart's position boils down to blind trust.
He trusts the administration, with its sterling reputation, to do the right thing under any circumstances.
Well said and say no more. This all boils down to credibility and the administration has zero credibility. The list of lies is endless:
- WMD
- Torture via "a few bad apples"
- Gitmo
- Medicare presciption drug program
- Response to Katrina
- Chaney armed and hammered last week
- The situation in Iraq
Control of port security to benefit Snow
- Deficit
- SS "reform"
- NSA warrantless surveillance
Chuck Hagel said it best: "When you've lost your creditibility, you've lost everything."
Hypatia said...
ReplyDeleteBart claims: 1) The federal courts have universally held that the 4th Amendment does not bar the President from carrying out warrantless surveillance on foreign groups and their agents in the US and the FISA court of review pretty clearly indicated that it does not believe that FISA requires warrants under those circumstances.
The federal courts, actually, have left this unsettled as to the 4th Am.
Actually, no. You have probably read one of the spins that the Supreme Court in the Keith case left open this issue and that is correct so far as it goes.
However, four courts of appeal have ruled as I stated and the Supremes denied review of those opinions, which means that they did not see anything worth getting involved in.
But as to FISA, the matter is clear: Bush is violating a criminal statute, a statute which binds him per Youngstown. Nine words of ambiguous dicta from the FISA court do not change that.
I have posted at length about the Youngstown argument in response to Glenn's earlier postings. This is really the only plausible legal argument the opponents have presented, but it also fails.
In Youngstown, Truman attempted to seize a steel mill under his authority as commander in chief during the Korean War. The Supremes ruled against him. In a famous concurrence, Justice Jackson invented a sliding scale of Presidential authority in situations where Congress shared constitutional authority over a subject matter area and depending on whether Congress had exercised its concurrent authority in the past. In Youngstown, Congress had long exercised authority in the seizure of property and thus overruled the Presidents pretty weak national security argument.
However, in our case, Congress does not have any concurrent authority with the President to direct or conduct foreign intelligence. The president exercises plenary or sole authority here. Therefore, Youngstown is not applicable because there is no concurrent authority to balance.
I already had this out over at the Volkh Conspiracy blog with two of the professors who came up with this argument and wrote Congress in a letter you may have seen. They did not have a response to my defense.
Justice Thomas in his Hamdi dissent insisted that Congress may legislate in areas of national security...
Of course they can. Article I enumerates several powers such as declaring war, approving treaties, regulating the conduct of the military and, of course, the power of the purse.
However, nowhere does Article I give congress the command authority to determine which targets to apply intelligence gathering.
Your legal analysis is simply wrong.
You are free to offer contrary legal authority...
dan7000 said...
ReplyDeleteWithout judicial review of the NSA wiretaps, how can anyone possibly know who and who is not being tapped?
Try answering this:
If there is no judicial oversight, what stops the President from wiretapping his political opponents?
It called congressional oversight.
The courts only review a case in controversy brought by a person who can prove he or she was illegally searched.
However, four courts of appeal have ruled as I stated and the Supremes denied review of those opinions, which means that they did not see anything worth getting involved in.
ReplyDeleteI dont believe that anyone who says this is a lawyer. Anyone can claim anything they want on the Internet about their profession.
But right after Gadylia's total lack of understanding of what "dicta" is (preceded by his mis-use of the term "ex parte"), this is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read. At least Gedalyia doesn't pretend to be a lawyer. Bart should follow that example.
mds said...
ReplyDeleteWell, bart, you can cite the other cases all in one place if you'd like, to act as a counterpoint to Mr. Greenwald's summary page demolishing the arguments of the administration and its apologists.
Someone else suggested this and I spent about three hours last Saturday writing a short brief citing the relevant legal authority. I challenged anyone here to post a point by point response to my defense and didn't get any takers.
Glenn was kind enough to link to all his prior posts on this issue. However, with all due respect to his efforts, he has no case law which holds that Congress has any constitutional authority over foreign intelligence gathering which would support a Youngstown argument that would trump all the case law which holds that the President has this constitutional authority.
If you can do better than Glenn, go right ahead...
mds blusters:
ReplyDeleteWell, gedaliya, at least some of us understand the difference between a court's decisions and nonbinding observations offered in dicta.
Well, your "understanding" is as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle in comparison to the legal experts cited in York's article in the In Re: Sealed Case. As York reported, the president's legal team will be using the Court of Review's decision as one of the elements in its defense of the president's warrantless wiretapping authority, and only time will tell whether their interpretation or that of their opponents will prevail. In any case, no one will be listening to your facile arguments in this case.
There is another fact that discredits your puerile and silly back-of-the-hand dismissal of this case, and that is that the ACLU decided to appeal the Court of Review's ruling to the SCOTUS. If the legal issues were, as you assert, so cut-and-dry that a "first year law student" can understand them, why did the ACLU appeal the case? Is it because they are all a bunch of ignorant fools? Despite my general distate for the ACLU and its agenda, I would never presume to adjudge them as either ignorant or foolish, and for you to do so casts more discredit on your sobriety and judgment that it does on theirs.
Hypatia: He was not arrested, charged or convicted with any crime. A complaint was made against him with the Ontario Human Rights Commission and he was not even censured by that body.
ReplyDeleteCanada is not the Soviet Union.
Eddie said...
ReplyDeleteBart Stated: However, four courts of appeal have ruled as I stated and the Supremes denied review of those opinions, which means that they did not see anything worth getting involved in.
Eddie Replied: I dont believe that anyone who says this is a lawyer. Anyone can claim anything they want on the Internet about their profession.
:::rolls eyes:::
While this varies depending on the activism of the particular court, the Supremes generally only accept cert to review a decision of the courts of appeal when there is a conflict between the courts or if the issue is so important that it needs to be dealt with now despite the consensus among the lower courts (see, e.g., the partial birth abortion case just granted cert).
In this case, there is no conflict between the circuits. They have all found that the President has this constitutional power.
Therefore, the Supreme would have to think that this was and important issue which all the circuits got wrong in order to grant cert. On this issue, the Supremes declined to grant cert on multiple occasions. This tells you that the Supremes did not see an important issue which the lower courts were getting wrong.
Of course, if you were edjumicated in da law, you would know this...
bart, WHY do you think congress doesn't have the authority to pass legislation re: domestic wiretapping? Of course they have it.
ReplyDeleteCongress has the authority to attempt to pass any law they wish. If said law is ratified, it must thereafter be challenged in court to overturn it, or pass new legislation which amends it.
This is basic civics stuff. The Executive branch doesn't have the authority to determine whether FISA is constitutional or not.
If they believe they have the legal right to disregard FISA, they must first challenge it in court.
If I am making some fundamental error here, please inform me as to what it is.
Apropos of nothing -- it bears considering that one of the infringements that Canada places on free speech of its citizens, is the right to accuse a physician of malpractice.
ReplyDeleteNot only are canadians barred from malpractice lawsuits, but the petitioner would actually be prosecuted BY THE PHYSICIAN-- for 'slander'.
This choice of constraint is entirely incomprehensible to me, but maybe a Canadian can shed some light on the logic or history behind this particular choice of speech restriction? I find it an interesting example, and possibly illuminative of an interesting theory on what the balance of individual and national interests are here.
Glenn-
ReplyDeleteThere's one major difference between the David Irving case and the NSA controversy: agreement on the basic facts.
We all agree on what happened in the case of David Irving so our common values lead us to the same conclusion. In the case of the secret NSA program, every single word of commentary by every single journalist and blogger who's written on it is based on guesswork as to what we are talking about.
Find a case where Howard Dean's phone was tapped in hopes of finding something politically useful and you will find uniformity of opinion. Heck, show that the NSA has been tapping domestic-to-domestic phone calls without a FISA warrant, and listening to the calls, and you'll get more than half of conservative commentators to share your outrage.
I don't think you'll find many (if any) bloggers who both support the NSA program and agree with the characterization of it as a program with no oversight, for example, or that President Bush has asserted the "power to ignore [any law] relating to national security -- which he finds burdensome or undesireable."
Different facts --> different conclusion, even with the same values.
Great article, Glenn. I think it points out the areas most Americans agree on. I think I can summarize it this way: Most Americans agree that it was wrong for an Austrian court to convict a British individual for saying something stupid about the holocaust. We agree on that point, I think, because there's no real danger in agreeing on it. Austria is far away. Some of the people condemning this action might have difficulty finding Austria on a world map (it's pretty small, and easy to miss). If some nut wants to tell Austrians there was no holocaust, then how does that hurt us? We don't have to put up with him.
ReplyDeleteBut what about when it's here? Several people have already pointed out that both liberals' and conservatives' committment to freedom at home is a bit more tentative, to say the least. That's because when those freedoms are exercised here, we're the ones who have to live with it. We have to put up with burning American flags, points of view that are severly different from our own, and the thought of maybe having dangerous people roaming the streets because of all the "due process" stuff. When the child molester is in someone else's neighborhood, it's much easier to be sympathetic to his treatment by the criminal justice system. When he's in your neighborhood, you might be tempted to invest in a torch and pitchfork store.
I've raised the issue of warrantless arrests with some of my fellow citizens, and I've been shocked by how many of them think it's perfectly OK if the people it's done to are whoever they think of as dangerous people.
So, yes, we all feel that speech should be free and people should be treated fairly as long as it doesn't cost us anything. We learned all those values about freedom and fairness in civics class, but I don't think we learned why we have them. When I was in high school, Vietnam was in full burn. We often heard the phrase "freedom isn't free", and it was generally used to imply that some of us would probably end up in Vietnam, and that was OK so we could preserve our freedoms. Unfortunately, that's not all it means. It's not just about sending someone else's kids to die in a place most of us hadn't heard of before. What it really means is that freedom, in some ways, is more dangerous than the alternatives. It means you have to listen to some nut who denies there was a holocaust or that your religious choice was a foolish one. You have to live with the idea that sometimes a murderer or a rapist will go free because evidence against him wasn't gathered properly. You have to live with things that you might, and I emphasize the word "might", not have to live with if things were different.
What we need to emphasize is why we think these freedoms are important. It isn't just because it might be one of us who is disappeared next - there's too much denial possible there. The people who are for such things can't possibly imagine that they could be the ones it happens to, because they just aren't "that kind of people". The main reason to prefer freedom is that it's the only system that's at all reliable at correcting itself. We can argue about the right course of action without fear of being jailed by our government. We can be sure that if we are mistaken for terrorists, and at least 300,000 of us have been if you believe the news about our no-fly lists, then the mistake can be corrected before we've spent years in jail being water-boarded and given nothing to read but the Koran. One of the reasons for our failure in Iraq has been that there was no real discussion at the top levels of government about what the best course of action would be, and what the consequences might be. There was none of that noisesome arguing about whether we needed more troops, no unsettling discussions about whether there actually was a connection to Al-Qaeda. Just harmonious certainty that we were right. Well, we were wrong, and look where it's gotten us.
And aren't we glad we have all those dangerous folks locked up in Guantonamo, and whereever else. If they could get trials there'd be all those quarrelsome lawyers talking about rules of evidence and all that other stuff that just upsets law-abiding citizens. Then some of them would get out of jail and a few might actually go back to their old Al-Qaeda jobs. Isn't it so much better that hundreds of people are locked up there so that one or two of them don't join the thousands out there already who are trying to kill us? I guess it is until you're the one locked up. When you're the one who was sold to the U.S. soldiers by some warlord for a few bucks and you're looking at spending the rest of your life in prison, all of a sudden that doesn't seem like such a good system. As one of the people paying for housing all those people in a maximum security setting, it doesn't strike me as a good system, either.
So, I think that what we need to do is hammer home the idea that freedom really isn't free, not to our soldiers, and not to us at home. It's just less costly than the alternatives.
Congress has full oversight authority with subpoena power and the ability to put administration personnel under oath at hearings. Congress has asked for and received closed door briefings on the program in question and there was nothing to keep them from asking about any other program being run by the executive.
ReplyDeletePlease, Bart, we all saw Abu testify. Sure, there is nothing to keep Congress from asking about other programs being run by the executive, but that sure as hell doesn’t mean that he answered the questions. He didn’t. He wouldn’t. He can’t.
And that’s why Graham is pursuing this, he isn’t just sticking up for the Congress right to check the power of the executive branch (which you’re arguments dismiss entirely), his questions have not been answered. And your tiresome citing of irrelevant court cases doesn’t either, otherwise Graham wouldn’t be concerned.
Are there American political values that transcend ideology?
ReplyDeleteI'm better known here for blogging at VichyDems, but this great, existential question implicates my other, older blog, The NeoProgBlog. My answer, expressed there: a resounding yes. In fact, IMNSHO the worst thing about the current crop of Republicans is that they've utterly rejected the framework of fundamental American values within which both liberals and conservatives traditionally have operated. Some prefer larger government with more programs, some prefer smaller government leaving more to individual initiative, but the American consensus USED to be that the government was us, should be respected, should be participated in, and should at some basic level protect the fundamental interests of the community. Ditto with fundamental values like free speech, the right of the minority party to participate meaningfully in government, the duty to pay taxes, the protection of American jobs, etc.
I'd like to return to an America where, for example, people would say, "I disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." Can anyone imagine Limbaugh ever saying that?
There were two letters to the editor in today's Wall Street Journal (2.21.06) in response to Richard Epstein's 2.13.06 "Executive Power on Steroids" commentary in which he argues against the president's claim to possess "inherent authority" to conduct warrantless surveillance. The first letter was from Roger Pilon, the Vice President for Legal Affairs of the Cato Institute. The second was from John Eastman, Professor of Law at Chapman University School of Law and the Director of the Claremont Institute. I think it is worth reproducing both letters in their entirety. I will do so without comment, although I'll reserve the right to use them in later posts.
ReplyDeleteRoger Pilon:
Be Very Wary of Restricting President's Power
On NSA surveillance, Richard Epstein concludes unlike others who have written for the editorial page ("Executive Power on Steroids," Feb. 13). No surprise there. The issues are complex, the Constitution imprecise. That said, his contention that "the president has exceeded his constitutional powers in disregarding FISA" (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) is hardly self-evident. But his claim that "the Constitution gives Congress the power to set policy; it gives to the president the right, and the duty, to execute it," much less that "Congress gets to set the general rules governing military efforts," is surely wrong. No court has ever read the president's foreign affairs power so narrowly.
Prof. Epstein cites "precise provisions" of the Constitution, yet the provisions he cites are neither precise nor dispositive. In particular, Congress's awesome power "to declare War," rarely used, was never meant to "authorize" military action. And the power of Congress "to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces," which Prof. Epstein finds "most critical for the spying dispute," was meant to enable Congress to establish a system of military justice outside the ordinary courts, not "to set the general rules governing military efforts."
But it's the idea of "inherent" executive power, which he likens to "plenary power over military affairs," that most concerns Prof. Epstein. Yet the FISA Court of Review, in an authoritative opinion on FISA post Patriot Act, spoke directly to that issue in a November 2002 decision known as In re: Sealed Case. Citing an earlier case called Troung that dealt with pre-FISA surveillance based on "the President's constitutional responsibility to conduct the foreign affairs of the United States," the court said: "The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power." The Supreme Court let the decision stand.
Note that the president's power is "inherent," but not "plenary." Its exercise must be "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment, which Congress can weigh in on, but not to the point of encroaching on the president's inherent power -- say, by prohibiting "the use of live ammunition in combat," which Prof. Epstein would allow. Note, too, the absence of bright lines.
Congress's micromanagement of the executive, which FISA amounts to, leads only to judicial hermeneutics concerning what Congress "really" meant. Sealed Case makes that plain. It shows also how earlier courts doing the same led to the erroneous erection of a "wall" between counterintelligence and law enforcement, and that may have led, tragically, to September 11. When the Framers gave the unqualified "executive Power" to the president, they did not leave it unchecked. But not every check must be by law. On this matter, politics is the better check.
Professor Eastman:
Richard Epstein is a friend and former teacher, but I have to take issue with his contention that the president cannot conduct warrantless surveillance of enemy communications. His position is based on a strained reading of the Commander in Chief clause and ignores other relevant constitutional text and existing Supreme Court precedent.
Prof. Epstein challenges the president's claim of inherent power by noting that the word "power" does not appear in the Commander in Chief clause, but the word "command," fairly implied in the noun "Commander," is a more-than-adequate substitute for "power." Was it really necessary for the drafters of the Constitution to say that the president shall have the power to command? Moreover, Prof. Epstein ignores completely the first clause of Article II -- the Vesting clause, which provides quite clearly that "The executive Power shall be vested in a President." The relevant inquiry is whether those who ratified the Constitution understood these powers to include interception of enemy communications in time of war without the permission of a judge, and on this there is really no doubt; they clearly did, which means that Congress cannot restrict the president's authority by mere statute.
Prof. Epstein's own description of the Commander in Chief clause recognizes this. One of the "critical functions" performed by the clause, he notes, is that "Congress cannot circumvent the president's position as commander in chief by assigning any of his responsibilities to anyone else." Yet FISA does precisely that, assigning to the FISA court a core command authority, namely, the ability to authorize interception of enemy communications. This authority has been exercised by every wartime president since George Washington.
Prof. Epstein also disputes the Justice Department's claim of congressional support via the Use-of-Force Authorization that was passed overwhelmingly in 2001, contending that "AUMF does not contain one word that dislodges FISA." Here, Prof. Epstein's position is at odds not only with Justice, but with the Supreme Court as well. A nearly identical argument was made unsuccessfully in the Hamdi case. Hamdi argued that federal law prohibited detention of citizens "except pursuant to an Act of Congress," and that the AUMF was not such an act because it did not contain a single word dislodging the anti-detention law. Justice O'Connor, writing for a court plurality, held that the AUMF was sufficient because detentions of enemy combatants had always been considered an incident of war. So, too, with the interception of enemy communications.
Finally, Prof. Epstein contends that Congress can restrict the president's constitutional power by virtue of its own constitutional power "to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces." This is a novel reading of that clause, which was designed to permit Congress to adopt things like the Code of Military Justice, not to determine operational tactics. It is Prof. Epstein's broad reading of congressional power, not the president's historically- and textually-grounded reading of his own power, that threatens to "upset a carefully wrought constitutional balance." Our nation's founders designed a chief executive, answerable directly to the people, that was strong enough to defend our national security, even acting "with secrecy and dispatch," if necessary. We should be very wary about restricting the president's constitutional powers at the very moment they are most critically needed.
Hypatia:
ReplyDelete[quoting someone else talking about Finkelstein]
You know, you may be right about Finkelstein, but wouldn't it be more convincing when making your points about Finkelstein to quote Finkelstein, rather than quoting what someone else says that Finkelstein supposedly said?
Now, Finkelstein is on the left, but he values Irving’s scholarship on the Holocaust.
Not sure why you're saying Finkelstein is "on the left" (if he is in fact), but he's hardly on the left mainstream, much less a major spokesman. So, why call him a "leftist"?
Cheers,
Bart:
ReplyDeleteI have posted these nearly a dozen time before, but here goes again...
See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
And the holdings in these cases were??? Note: "holdings". Not "dicta". Not "obiter dicta". Not "phrases carefully snipped out of context and then put forth for a proposition that you and only you give to them, disregarding for the moment that they're not even rulings of law".
You know, quotes and stuff. Like you'd do in a halfway competent memo. Hey, you could Shepardize these cases too, to see if someone else besides you in your hallucinatory peregrinations actually think that this is what these cases stood for, and that they are actually good law for the proposition(s) you attribute to them....
Cheers,
prunes said...
ReplyDeletebart, WHY do you think congress doesn't have the authority to pass legislation re: domestic wiretapping? Of course they have it. Congress has the authority to attempt to pass any law they wish.
I am getting tired of this repetition. I have answered this for you in the past...
Congress most definitely CAN NOT pass any law they darn well please. The Constitution limits each branch to enumerate powers. Any law which Congress passes which is not enabling one of its powers under Article I is unconstitutional - PERIOD.
An unconstitutional law is null, void and unenforceable by definition.
The President does not have to enforce such a law until the Courts say otherwise.
If Congress passed a law saying that you must sodomize your mother each night before you go to bed, the President need not enforce such a law pending judicial review.
Get it?
Let's say Justice sued the President to enforce the law. The President will merely reply that the law is unconstitutional. Any sane court will agree and dismiss the case against the President. The court will not uphold a judgment against the President for failing to enforce the law before the Court could hear the case.
Bart:
ReplyDeleteI used to be a prosecutor who drafted affidavits to obtain warrants....
Fired for citing dicta as established law, eh?
... If the police arrested a member of the local mafia and found his little black book with telephone numbers, there mere fact that this dirtbag possesses the number does not give me probable cause to tap that number. The number could belong to his dry cleaner.
Quite right. So you go do the legwork, check the person out (and you don't need a warrant to check out someone's background, etc., just need one for the wiretap and/or search), and if it turns out that the number belongs to another probable mobster for whom you have probable cause to get a warrant, you get your warrant for that person as well. I have a hard time believing you're a former prosecutor if you don't know the obvious stuff like this....
Cheers,
Zack said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Congress has full oversight authority with subpoena power and the ability to put administration personnel under oath at hearings. Congress has asked for and received closed door briefings on the program in question and there was nothing to keep them from asking about any other program being run by the executive.
Zach: Please, Bart, we all saw Abu testify. Sure, there is nothing to keep Congress from asking about other programs being run by the executive, but that sure as hell doesn’t mean that he answered the questions. He didn’t. He wouldn’t. He can’t.
When asked about other programs, the AG and other witnesses repeatedly stated that they could not talk about the programs in open session - for obvious reasons.
When asked about hypothetical questions and about what advice the President received, the AG politely told the Congress to piss up a rope.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart:
I have posted these nearly a dozen time before, but here goes again...
See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
And the holdings in these cases were??? Note: "holdings". Not "dicta". Not "obiter dicta". Not "phrases carefully snipped out of context and then put forth for a proposition that you and only you give to them, disregarding for the moment that they're not even rulings of law".
You know, quotes and stuff. Like you'd do in a halfway competent memo. Hey, you could Shepardize these cases too, to see if someone else besides you in your hallucinatory peregrinations actually think that this is what these cases stood for, and that they are actually good law for the proposition(s) you attribute to them....
Dude, no one on either side of the debate challenges the holdings of these cases. Rather, they try to render this precedent irrelevant by arguing that they were "pre FISA."
If you disagree with the consensus meanings of these cases, feel free to give us some quotes of your own.
I realize you used the example of Irving's conviction in Austria as a springboard to a general discussion about the US, but from all I've read it appears that Americans don't appreciate the background to that decision or the laws on which it was based.
ReplyDeleteI may have the details wrong, since its been many years since I studied them, but German and Austrian anti-Nazi laws are focused on anything that may be used to honor or revive the Nazi movement. No symbols of Nazism are allowed -- even the name "Adolph" has been banned for German babies. In addition, distorting history to improve the image of the Nazis is also forbidden.
What is not forbidden is advancing the ideas and opinions of Hitler, if done so without any link or connection to the Nazi movement.
This is a key distinction. The restrictions on speech do not apply to ideas -- they apply to the specific symbols of a party that caused the murder of 10s of millions through war and genocide. In addition, the restrictions on historical revisionism require that the government prove that the accused lied. (Irving admitted to his lies in court.)
It surely is hard for Americans to understand, but in post-WW2 Germany and Europe there were many, many people who still sympathized with the Nazis, but generally didn't announce that fact. (Similar to the way the US has many, many people who still sympathize with Jim Crow laws but don't say so publically.) There was a legitimate fear that the Nazi movement could reappear under a new leader. So, in West Germany and Austria, the governments not only banned Nazi era symbols, but (after a few years) embarked on ongoing campaigns to education the populace about the Nazi era and preemptively counter the Nazi apologists.
The success of these campaigns was illustrated following the reunification of Germany. The east -- where the communist state officially washed its hands of the Nazi era and mostly erased it from history books -- was infested with a large number of Nazi sympathizers -- 15-25% depending on degree of sympathy, whereas sympathizers were but a tiny part of the population of the West.
In short, for Germany and Austria, the ban on Nazism is analogous to the ban on shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.
Arno: I conclude that Finkelstein is a man of the left because he is a Marxist -- or at least declines to state that he no longer is and thereby join Christopher Hitchens in "apostasy":
ReplyDeleteI'm occasionally asked whether I still consider myself a Marxist. Even if my "faith" had lapsed, I wouldn't advertise it, not from shame at having been wrong (although admittedly this would be a factor) but rather from fear of arousing even a faint suspicion of opportunism.
Further, he is friends with Alexander Cockburn and is frequently seen at Counterpunch. As this Counterpunch interview mentions, he is also good friends with Noam Chomsky.
Go to Counterpunch's bookstore and find: The Politics of Anti-Semitism, edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair, explores how the charge of "anti-semitism" is used to silence any criticism of the actions of the state of Israel. It features essays by Edward Said, Robert Fisk, Uri Avnery, Norman Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Alexander Cockburn, Jeffrey St. Clair and many others. Available to CounterPunchers for $11.50, including shipping and handling.
Finkelstein is on the (far) left. And he finds value in Irving's work. That is not the only reason Irving should not be imprisoned for his speech crimes, but it does illustrate who else those tentacles could reach.
David Shaughnessy said...
ReplyDeleteBart & Gedaliya:
How can you continue to support this Administration? Seriously. Turning over American ports to the United Arab Emigrates? Well, so much for the Bush Administration's paramount concern for American security.
Do you know how xenophobic you are sounding?
I have been taking on my GOP friends on this issue...
The UAE company at issue runs ports across Asia, Europe and South America.
There is no evidence whatsoever that it has any terrorist connections. The argument is that some people in the UAE either were or supported al Qaeda. So what? Some people in the US either were or supported al Qaeda.
This UAE company has applied to buy a British company who has been running a handful of US ports with US employees under US laws and customs supervision.
The opposition to this acquisition boils down to the following argument: All arabs are or might be terrorists and can't be trusted running one of our ports.
Frankly, the argument is based on fear of arabs and is despicable.
Both parties have acted reprehensibly on this issue.
Desperate to show that they are not complete squishes on national defense, the Donkeys have been beating up on the Administration for not barring all Arab companies from running our ports, conveniently ignoring how much of our oil infrastructure in the US is owned outright by Arabs.
The GOP has been nearly as bad. Not wanting to be outflanked on their signal 2006 election issue, many Elephants are more than willing to chuck the UAE under the truck to deny the Donkeys and issue.
I was surprised and pleased that the President took on his own party today by threatening a veto of any legislation to bar the UAE because they are Arabs.
Bart (acting obliviously to the facts out there in the real world):
ReplyDeleteHowever, in our case, Congress does not have any concurrent authority with the President to direct or conduct foreign intelligence.
Ummm, one of the case youcited upheld the FISA laws. Your Honour, may I make a motion for summary judgement....
Cheers,
Bart:
ReplyDeleteI already had this out over at the Volkh Conspiracy blog with two of the professors who came up with this argument and wrote Congress in a letter you may have seen. They did not have a response to my defense.
It gets boring (and pretty much pointless) to blast the same fish in the bottom of a barrel with a shotgun more than four or five times. If you'd bother listening, and respond to the refutations in a manner other than simply repeateing your original and refuted claims, you might get more response.
Cheers,
Great post, Glenn, but I have one little nit to pick as a Canadian. We actually have free speech laws which are as broad as the 1st Amendment, and Canadians are not sent to jail for things they say any more than Americans are. It think it's cute that most Americans think they represent the pinnacle of freedom, but as an outsider I can see that my country is much more liberal when it comes to free expression.
ReplyDeleteAlso, more as a note to some of the other posters here, there are many European countries and their free speech laws run the gamut from the cartoon-publishing-free-speech-loving Danes to the rather less so Austrians. Grouping them all together shows a lot of ignorance.
Bart:
ReplyDeleteTherefore, the Supreme would have to think that this was and important issue which all the circuits got wrong in order to grant cert. On this issue, the Supremes declined to grant cert on multiple occasions. This tells you that the Supremes did not see an important issue which the lower courts were getting wrong.
Heh. For this to be relevant to your argument, this assumes that the issues in these cases were the validity of the dicta (or hallucinations) that you attribute to them. Not true.
Cheers,
Bart:
ReplyDeleteDude, no one on either side of the debate challenges the holdings of these cases. Rather, they try to render this precedent irrelevant by arguing that they were "pre FISA."
Problem for you, "dude", is that the holdings are not what you're claiming these cases stand for....
Which has been pointed out to you more than enough times.
Which you have studiously ignored more than enough times (including in this last response of yours).
Which is what I have decided to do to your regurgitated miasma.
If you disagree with the consensus meanings of these cases, feel free to give us some quotes of your own.
Ummmm, I'll think about it ... after you, my dear Alphonse. Give us the holdings. And the quotes. First.
Congratulations on your status as a universally ignored kook.
Cheers,
If the legal issues were, as you assert, so cut-and-dry that a "first year law student" can understand them, why did the ACLU appeal the case?
ReplyDeleteThe ACLU didn't get involved in the case because it thought FISA unreasonably restrained the President's inherent power to do whatever he wishes to US citizens in the name of national security. The ACLU was challenging the putative "looser standards" behind the government's appeal, on the grounds that they violated the Fourth Amendment. The court found otherwise, believing the letter of FISA + Patriot to be adequate without the additional requirements imposed by the FISA court. That's in the decision; perhaps you should have it read to you sometime.
Oh, and here's a little tip: dicta aren't holdings. That's what first-year law students quickly learn, but which still eludes gedaliya and bart.
--mds
David Shaughnessy said: “Turning over American ports to the United Arab Emigrates? Well, so much for the Bush Administration's paramount concern for American security.”
ReplyDeleteI need to point out to the commenters here that they are supposedly building a case against Bush based on principles. I don’t believe that discriminating against ethnic groups by stereotyping them is a principle that most here would wish to enshrine in the movement. Belaboring Bush about the UAE port issue is the same as Coulter calling them ragheads, absent any specific information that those involved are terrorist-connected or a higher risk than other firms in the same business. This is profiling. Come on, Mr. Greenwald, keep your folks from committing this error. Yes, it is tempting and it has “gut” appeal, but it is wrong in principle and that is what you are supposedly about.
The other principle violated - and yet not objected to by most - was Bush's preemptive war doctrine. When I read that he had decided to do that, my reaction was that America does not attack first! We cannot become the aggressor nation. But, then we have. I know this is trodding over old ground that has been trod before - but I think this aspect of the Iraq war is far more disturbing to me on principle than the misrepresentation of the evidence.
ReplyDeleteYou can always depend on Bart to parrot the party line.
ReplyDeleteFor once I would like to see him place country above party.
"Bush is the worst president in American history, hands down."
ReplyDeleteHow about Lady McBush, zoombied out on Prozaq, never bothering to say, "Honey, why are we torturing people and spying on all our citizens?"
She's like a Mafia wife. Looks the other way and pockets the weekly allowance. She's the worst First Lady in history.
mds continues his fatuous crusade:
ReplyDeleteThe ACLU didn't get involved in the case because...
You keep repeating yourself, despite the fact the entire debate has passed you by. The In Re: Sealed Case decision is being discussed among the most distinguished and accomplished legal minds of the nation, and none of them are offering the silly, facile, and jejune retorts we find in your posts.
Roger Pilon of the Cato Institute, as I quoted above, called the In Re: Sealed Case ruling "authoritative," and quoted from the ruling: "...the Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power."
He again emphasized that the Supreme Court let the decision stand.
mds, I would suggest you cease embarrassing yourself with your stubborn insistance that the In Re: Sealed Case is something less than significant in this debate. It is not insignificant. In fact, every day that goes by proves that it will play a meaningful role in the resolution of this political controversy in the coming months.
hypatia:
ReplyDeleteBut as to FISA, the matter is clear: Bush is violating a criminal statute, a statute which binds him per Youngstown. Nine words of ambiguous dicta from the FISA court do not change that.
Bart:
I have posted at length about the Youngstown argument in response to Glenn's earlier postings. This is really the only plausible legal argument the opponents have presented, but it also fails.
In Youngstown, Truman attempted to seize a steel mill under his authority as commander in chief during the Korean War. The Supremes ruled against him. In a famous concurrence, Justice Jackson invented a sliding scale of Presidential authority in situations where Congress shared constitutional authority over a subject matter area and depending on whether Congress had exercised its concurrent authority in the past. In Youngstown, Congress had long exercised authority in the seizure of property and thus overruled the Presidents pretty weak national security argument.
However, in our case, Congress does not have any concurrent authority with the President to direct or conduct foreign intelligence. The president exercises plenary or sole authority here. Therefore, Youngstown is not applicable because there is no concurrent authority to balance.
Me:
Bart, you have talked yourself into a corner.
You can't wiretap US citizens and claim that this is somehow under the auspices of 'foreign intelligence.'
It's a contradiction in terms. Black = white, 2 + 2 = 1, spying on US citizens = foreign intelligence.
US citizens are not foriegn.
Domestic Intelligence --> Congressional Authority -->
Specific Statutory Claim outlawing warrantless wiretapping --> president's act unconstitutional.
So now, I'm ready for you to lead the impeachment band.
Furthermore,
the entire legal argument is bullshit.
If Bush thought FISA was unconstitutional he should have had it overturned by the Supreme Court. You're not allowed to break a law because you think it's unconstitutional. You have to get a court to delcare it unconstititional first.
Got any response to that?
I'm sure you do.
God, it makes me sick.
gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteRoger Pilon of the Cato Institute, as I quoted above, called the In Re: Sealed Case ruling "authoritative," and quoted from the ruling: "...the Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.
Pretty sad, you know, when you can't quote from the case that actually made some decision in support of the proposition you're claiming is behind the decision. When you have to go to cases that cite that case to explain what the first case said, I think the first decision may not be quite the ringing endorsement that you want. But, just out of curiosity, what was the "ruling" in In re Sealed Cases. Care to explain it to me? And then, just to be kind, explain where in this "ruling" you find the language you quoted second-hand above.... (In your spare time, I guess you could also show where in Truong this proposition you're citing is part of the court's "holding" in the case. Pay particular mind to the fact that the actual outcome of the case must depend entirely or mnainly on the rules and points of law expressed in the holding. I suspect that you, just like your buddy Bart ... and strangely enough, like pretty much every< sycophantic Republican lawyer who is looking to defned Dubya but who ought to know better ... seem to ignore the fact that a case is good precedent for the decision that was made (i.e., the outcome) and for the rationale used to reach that decision. Any other opinions on law (and particularly ones that might cut the other way from the actual decision made) are purely dicta, and can safely be ignored. They are not law ... and not precedent.
As for calling cases "authoritative", what's that all about? I could call you a frizbit, and that hardly changes the facts of the situation, does it?
Oh for goodness sake. I don't care what Roger Pilon implies in a letter to the editor about the Supreme Court letting dicta stand by denying cert in In Re Sealed Case. It was denying cert as to the actual holding, but that fact has no meaning -- none -- legally. It certainly does not remotely indicate what the justices think about nine words of dicta!
ReplyDeleteConsider the neutral entry by Encarta on the issue of petitions of certiorari in general, my emphasis:
For much of the Supreme Court’s history, Congress required it to hear a large percentage of cases appealed from the lower courts. But over the years Congress eliminated parts of this mandatory jurisdiction...The writ of certiorari is an order from a higher court directing a lower court to send the record of a case for review. The Court has long considered requests for writs of certiorari according to the rule of four, which says that if four justices decide to “grant cert,” in the usual colloquial phrase, the Court will agree to hear the case. Of the 6,000 or so certiorari (cert) petitions filed each year, the Court agrees to consider no more than about 150 and sometimes fewer.
It's triage! They are swamped and hear 150 out of 6,000. annually.
Encarta again:
A denial of a writ of certiorari means that the case is over, and the decision in the lower court stands as final. A denial of certiorari is not a judgment of the Supreme Court, so it is incorrect to say that the Court agreed with the lower court. Denials of writs of certiorari have no value as precedents.
It is so silly to argue that dicta in a case that was one of 5,850 refused to be heard by the Supreme Court in that year means anything at all. But I do understand that this is about the best that the Bush defenders have. Pilon is a smart guy and knows his letter is a political pitch (sounding good to laypeople who do not understand the field, tho certainly some do, like mds), but not a legally meritorious one.
But, just out of curiosity, what was the "ruling" in In re Sealed Cases.
ReplyDeleteThe ruling held that the FISA court exceeded its authority in refusing to adopt the Justice Departs revisions of the 1978 FISA act in regard to the (at the time) recently passed Patriot Act. These revisions were adopted in order to undertake the kind of surveillance we've been discussing here, i.e., warrantless monitoring of certain foreign-based communications.
The FISA court did more than deny the Justice Department's suggested revisions. According to York, "The FISA Court also ordered that the Justice Department include certain staffers in all surveillance debates, an order that quickly became known in the Justice Department as the 'chaperone requirement'."
The Justice Department appealed to the Court of Review.
The ruling of the Court of Review completely shot down the ruling of the FISA court. Again, according to York:
In its opinion, the Court of Review said the FISA Court had, in effect, attempted to unilaterally impose the old 1995 rules. “In doing so, the FISA Court erred,” the ruling read. “It did not provide any constitutional basis for its action — we think there is none — and misconstrued the main statutory provision on which it relied.” The FISA Court, according to the ruling, “refus[ed] to consider the legal significance of the Patriot Act’s crucial amendments” and “may well have exceeded the constitutional bounds” governing the courts by asserting “authority to govern the internal organization and investigative procedures of the Department of Justice.”
Then York explains why this ruling is significant in the debate we're having here:
And then the Court of Review did one more thing, something that has repercussions in today’s surveillance controversy. Not only could the FISA Court not tell the president how do to his work, the Court of Review said, but the president also had the “inherent authority” under the Constitution to conduct needed surveillance without obtaining any warrant — from the FISA Court or anyone else. Referring to an earlier case, known as Truong, which dealt with surveillance before FISA was passed, the Court of Review wrote: “The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. . . . We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power.”
So, to summarize:
1. The Court of Review reversed the FISA court's ruling that prevented the Justice Department from undertaking warrantless surveillance of foreign communications.
2. The Court of Review reversed the FISA Court's "chaperone requirement."
3. The Court of Review ruled that the president has an "inherent authority" to conduct wireless surveillance (using the precedent of Troung and "all the other courts").
The ACLU appealed the Court of Review's decision. The SCOTUS denied cert.
The Court of Review's ruling is being debated and discussed in Congress and in the public press. For you and others to simply dismiss it out of hand is, to say the least, bizarre. In the end, it may or may not prove dispositive in regard to the outcome of the case, but it certainly isn't simply "purely dicta" that no court or legislative body would deign to pay attention to.
Hypatia hyperventilates:
ReplyDeleteIt was denying cert as to the actual holding, but that fact has no meaning -- none -- legally.
Patently absurd. The SCOTUS denying cert has the most significant meaning of all in regard to the In Re: Sealed Case. To wit:
The FISA Court of Review's Ruling stands, the FISA Court's attempt the hamstring the Justice Department is over-ruled, and the modification to the rules regarding warrantless surveillance remain intact.
If you think those issues "have no meaning" than you are, to be kind, living in a dream world.
Oh, and Hypatia, thanks for the online dictionary definitions of "denying cert," but they don't help your silly attempt to dismiss what may indeed turn out to be a key element in the Bush administration's legal case regarding the NSA program.
"It surely is hard for Americans to understand, but in post-WW2 Germany and Europe there were many, many people who still sympathized with the Nazis, but generally didn't announce that fact."
ReplyDeleteOh, surely not. Here, let me just borrow a certain style of rhethorics that should be familiar to American audiences.
Ahem.
You damn east-coa... err, trans-atlantic liberals, living in your ivory tower with your high-falutin' ideas about free speech, are simply stuck in a pre-WWII mindset. Don't you people realize that WWII changed everything?! No, you won't be happy until every democracy in the world has gone the way of the Weimahr Republic!
Well, and so on. (I can't keep this up for a whole comment.)
The point is, that it's difficult for a country that has not experienced Nazi rule to understand the reflexive "stung-animal" reaction we have to Nazism and its associates. The Weimahr Republic fell (in part - I'm oversimplifying) because it naively accepted inherently anti-democratic groups like the communists and the national socialists as valid political parties within the democratic system. This allowed Hitler to campaign with the promise that, if elected, he would end democracy, which he did. (Another reason why Hitler/Bush comparisons are silly - Hitler actually won the election.)
After the war, when it came to drafting a new constitution, people naturally said, "Okay, that didn't work out so well. Maybe there are some opinions that are not part of healthy political discourse - such as, say, those that believe there should be no other opinions."
It's the same principle as the old adage "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose," only on a more abstract level: "Your right to express your opinion stops at the point where you suggest that I should not be allowed to have my own." Nazism (like other totalitarian ideologies) crosses this line, and thus its advocation, whether direct or indirect, is forbidden by law.
It's a tricky subject. Just like the right to pursue happiness is limited by laws forbidding you to bash your neighbour's skull in, no matter how happy that would make you, so the right to express yourself is curtailed by law, when its exercise hurts others.
Just like the USA PATRIOT Act after 9/11, the anti-nazi legislation many European nations enacted after WWII is probably going beyond what is arguably necessary for the protection of political freedom - but surely it's at least understandable if Adolf Hitler's mother country goes that extra length to distance itself from his ideology.
mds keeps on trying:
ReplyDeleteThe FISA court ruled no such thing.
A number of legal scholars disagree with you. These include the individuals mentioned by York in his article, including three federal appeals-court judges, Laurence Silberman, Edward Leavy, and Ralph Guy; Theodore Olson, the U.S. solicitor general, Larry Thompson, the deputy attorney general, John Yoo, "the Justice official who had closely studied questions of war powers and presidential authority," and, among others, David Addington, Vice President Cheney’s top lawyer.
These men interpret the ruling In Re: Sealed Case, according to Byron York, to mean exactly what I wrote in my post, i.e., that the FISA law, as amended by the Patriot Act, does not restrict the president's “inherent authority” under the Constitution to conduct needed surveillance without obtaining any warrant.
You, MDS, disagree. That is fine, of course, but frankly, your credibility on this issue, especially compared to Byron York's reporting, simply does not measure up.
The Supreme Court does not give a good goddamn about a lower court judge's dicta.
Yada yada yada, you and your "dicta." This is a political fight, and I am willin to wager that In Re: Sealed Case will be an important element in Bush's victory in this dispute, dicta or no dicta.
Oh, and gedaliya, what is FISA for?
This is a good question, and if I had my way, the SCOTUS will declare it unconstitutional and it will die a well-deserved death once-and-for-all.
Well, then, they're stupid, illiterate, willfully lying...
ReplyDeleteLOL. Ok, "MDS", I guess you get the last word. Your legal arguments, are, to say the least, less than persuasive.
We'll see how this plays out in the real world. Whose view will prevail? Will it be the views of the men I mentioned, those that formulated the strategy Byron York reports on in the 2.27.06 National Review? Or will it be the views of the great legal scholar MDS?
Time, as is its wont, will tell.
mds paraphrasing gedaliya:"Yeah? Well, Byron York! Neener-neener!
ReplyDeleteMeaning no snark here, she really does hold an unusual reverence for Mr. York as some supremely sagacious authority. York is hardly Moses come from the Burning (er, ahem) Bush dispensing Holy Writ.
I just don't get that.
The president has broken no laws, is exercising his constitutional authority, and will prevail in this controversy.
ReplyDeleteYour intense hatred for the president prevents you and those who share your feelings from being taken seriously here and in the real world. No one listens to arguments, legal or otherwise, that are motivated from hatred. This dispute is playing out at the very highest levels of government and academia, and it is certain that fellows like you, who hate the president with a passion almost psychotic in its intensity, are all gathered together on the sidelines.
Hatred is a very destructive emotion. I feel sorry for you.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: But, just out of curiosity, what was the "ruling" in In re Sealed Cases.
The ruling held that the FISA court exceeded its authority in refusing to adopt the Justice Departs revisions of the 1978 FISA act in regard to the (at the time) recently passed Patriot Act.
Ummm, nope. Certainly the Justice Department can't "revise" the FISA act; it can at best promulgate policies and regulations (and engage in actions) in concert with, or in order to implement, the FISA act. Part of the decision was whether the FISA act prevented the actions in question in this case, and the appeals court said "no" and overturned the contrary opinion of the court below. Here's the holding:
"[W]e conclude that FISA, as amended by the Patriot Act, supports the government's position, and that the restrictions imposed by the FISA court are not required by FISA or the Constitution. We therefore remand for further proceedings in accordance with this opinion."
So what were the restrictions that were at the heart of the case (and which the holding said were not required)?:
"[L]aw enforcement officials shall not make recommendations to intelligence officials concerning the initiation, operation, continuation or expansion of FISA searches or surveillances. Additionally, the FBI and the Criminal Division shall ensure that law enforcement officials do not direct or control the use of the FISA procedures to enhance criminal prosecution, and that advice intended to preserve the option of a criminal prosecution does not inadvertently result in the Crimina Division's directing or controllin the investigation using FISA searches and surveillance toward law enforcement objectives."
These revisions were adopted in order to undertake the kind of surveillance we've been discussing here, i.e., warrantless monitoring of certain foreign-based communications.
Ummmm, nope. See above. They explained what the revisions were, and they had nothing to do with warrantless searches. Hard to argue with the plain text....
Look, did you read the "In re Sealed Case" opinion???
The FISA court did more than deny the Justice Department's suggested revisions. According to York, "The FISA Court also ordered that the Justice Department include certain staffers in all surveillance debates, an order that quickly became known in the Justice Department as the 'chaperone requirement'."
And this has what to do with the price of tea in Sri Lanka???
I'm sure you can explain what this case has to do with warrantless surveillances ... not.
But you knew that; you're just blowing smoke and/or trolling.
Cheers,
Hard to argue with the plain text....
ReplyDeleteWell, as Byron York has reported, and in the cites I've posted above, your interpretation of the "plain text" is simply not shared by legal experts who are at least as qualified as you are, and most likely far more qualified then you are, to make such judgments. Given that fact, I find it difficult to understand how you can continue to beat this dead horse. In Re: Sealed Case is being used, as we speak, in this debate, as a legal argument to support the president's contention that he possess inherent authority to conduct warrantless wiretaps. I'll repeat, the Court of Review ruling is being used by the president's lawyers to support his case. Your arguments, made in an obscure corner of cyberspace, simply don't impress when measured against that fact.
No amount of hand-waving, puerile insults, arrogant posturing, aggressive chest-beating or any other silly behavior on your part changes that fact one iota.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteSo, to summarize:
1. The [In re Sealed Case] Court of Review reversed the FISA court's ruling that prevented the Justice Department from undertaking warrantless surveillance of foreign communications.
Huh??? What planet do you live on? The In re Sealed Case court did no such thing. You're making shite up out of thin air....
3. The Court of Review ruled that the president has an "inherent authority" to conduct wireless surveillance (using the precedent of Troung and "all the other courts").
Nonsense. They simply assumed this in passing ("we take for granted..." and "assuming that is so"), but explain to you and to the non-brain-dead people as well that the In re Sealed Case actually concerns a different question: "The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President's power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government's contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable." IOW, they're asking whether the similarities between FISA court orders and traditional Title III warrants suggest that the FISA procedures are likewise constitutionally permissible. They made no such "ruling" as you claim here; that is just false.
Cheers,
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteThese men interpret the ruling In Re: Sealed Case, according to Byron York, to mean exactly what I wrote in my post, i.e., that the FISA law, as amended by the Patriot Act, does not restrict the president's “inherent authority” under the Constitution to conduct needed surveillance without obtaining any warrant.
If so, they're full'o'shite. IOW, wrong. Mistaken. Oblivious to fact. LAwyers of the lowest calibre.
But you'd do better to quote what they actually say, rather than pretend to speak for them.
Cheers,
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteWell, as Byron York has reported, and in the cites I've posted above, your interpretation of the "plain text" is simply not shared by legal experts who are at least as qualified as you are,....
Seems to me that you think that merely quoting from the actual opinion's ruling is "interpretation of the 'plain text'". You need to argue with the people who wrote those words that I posted, not me ... I'm just the messenger. I posted the freakin' holding and you seem to be saying it says something else than what it says. You're pretty stoopid to think that's gonna fly.
But feel free to post the words of other "legal experts" that also say that these words aren't quite what they seem.... Sorry, but you're not a very trusty source, and I can't just take your word for it that these supposed experts have said something.....
Cheers,
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteI'll repeat, the Court of Review ruling is being used by the president's lawyers to support his case. Your arguments, made in an obscure corner of cyberspace, simply don't impress when measured against that fact.
The President's lawyers also contended that the way to "fix" an allegedly unconstitutional count of votes (which, they argued, would violate "equal protection" requirements that all votes be counted the same) was to simply not count some legal votes.
Hate to say it, but Dubya's lawyers give even lawyers a bad name..... No wonder they refuse to testify under oath.
Cheers,
The President's lawyers also contended that the way to "fix" an allegedly unconstitutional count of votes (which, they argued, would violate "equal protection" requirements that all votes be counted the same) was to simply not count some legal votes.
ReplyDeleteYou mean in Bush v. Gore?
It's hard to believe anyone is still arguing that case, but hey, have at it. But please remember, your side lost that case, and our side won, and there simply isn't anything you can do about except whine.
I hate to use the phrase, given its many connotations, but, isn't tme to...."move on"?
Arne L. writes:
ReplyDeleteBut feel free to post the words of other "legal experts" that also say that these words aren't quite what they seem.... Sorry, but you're not a very trusty source, and I can't just take your word for it that these supposed experts have said something.....
It doesn't compute for me, but Gedaliya is starstruck with Byron York and this brilliant strategy she feels York details in an NRO article, and that's just the little bubble she's wrapped up in. It is doubtful that bubble can be burst, and really, what does it matter?
Tho I hold some moral objections to the bigoted underpinnings of this Portgate matter, and Glenn certainly doesn't seem ready to endorse it as a scandal proper either, he is quite correct that the GOP cry to arms on the DPW contract -- their beleif that Bush is abandoning national security to the "ragheads" -- will rob Bush of his ace in the hole on the NSA issue. People are not now going to be disinclined to second guess him on national security matters and ignoring Congress, and Democrats won't need to be nearly so careful with that issue.
Who give's a tinker's damn whether Gedaliya is holding fast to some odd fixation with York and dicta from the FISA appellate court, when the real issues relating to the NSA scandal are moving forward?
I sure don't.
On Roe v. Wade...
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't have long now...One more vote to go.
I suspect the test case will be the South Dakota Abortion Law, which (according to the article) is about to pass, and should reach the SCOTUS in 2007 or 2008.
Then we'll see who'll be whining.
he is quite correct that the GOP cry to arms on the DPW contract -- their beleif that Bush is abandoning national security to the "ragheads" -- will rob Bush of his ace in the hole on the NSA issue.
ReplyDeleteI sure wish we could wager on this issue. The NSA controversy is already a dead issue for the Democrats, and regardless how the port controversy unfolds (odd that Glenn hasn't yet termed it a "scandal"), Bush holds all the cards in regard to the NSA dispute.
It is amazing how the Bush-hating left goes from one forelorn hope to another in their never-ending quest for something with which to bring him down. "Quixotic" is too mild a word to describe the bang-head-against-wall-over-and-over-again behavior we've seen year after year during this presidency.
I won't be surprised to see this crowd, on the very day the next president (Jeb Bush anyone?) takes the oath, claim that they've finally succeeded in removing Bush 43 from office.
And they keep getting angrier and more hateful with each loss, and more hateful they get the less effective they get and it keeps going on and on and on...
Not sure why you're saying Finkelstein is "on the left" (if he is in fact), but he's hardly on the left mainstream, much less a major spokesman. So, why call him a "leftist"?
ReplyDeleteArne, most of your comments are excellent, but this is just bizarre. Even the most cursory investigation reveals that Finkelstein is politically on the left (his close friendship with Noam Chomsky is a clue), and whether one is a leftist has nothing to do with whether one is a spokesman or is mainstream (I myself am a non-mainstream non-spokesman leftist).
In regard to Finkelstein's Holocaust views, it's worth keeping in mind that both of his parents are Holocaust survivors. It's also worth considering this comment from Raul Hilberg, widely recognized as the top expert on the Holocaust: "I would now say in retrospect that he was actually conservative, moderate and that his conclusions [in The Holocaust Industry] are trustworthy.... I am by no means the only one who, in the coming months or years, will totally agree with Finkelstein's breakthrough." (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050711/wiener)
Then we'll see who'll be whining.
ReplyDeleteWe already know who will be "whining", gedaliya: all those women undergoing back-alley abortions, as well as the rest of us with a shred of decency and compassion. But in your sick mental framework, even the Sith are heroes by virtue of winning.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteYou mean in Bush v. Gore?
It's hard to believe anyone is still arguing that case, but hey, have at it. But please remember, your side lost that case, and our side won, and there simply isn't anything you can do about except whine.
Hate to say it, but it's perfectly possible to argue a decision. You folks should know (just one word: "Roe". Or are you willing to say "your side won, and there's nothing we can do about it"?).
On to the merits: The claim was that there was a (potential) "equal protection" violation had the recounts been allowed to continue. But the strange thing here is that for this one case, the "cure", the court's decision, in fact did nothing to actually redress the supposed injury. In fact, the court identified a problem they thought might occur, one that demanded, under the Constitution, a remedy, but then crafted an order that in fact ensured that the precise violation of rights that so troubled them would in fact happen ... under order of the court. No one seriously argues that there weren't actual legal ballots in the undervotes (or overvotes, for that matter). To say that such ballots shouldn't be counted at all (rather than under some possibly varying standards) certainly put those voters at a disadvantage WRT theri franchise. In addition, some counties had been recounted, allegedly under different standards, but the court didn't throw those results out; they were left standing. One can only conclude that the Supes really didn't care about the problem they said they cared about, but were instead more concerned with some other "problem" ... like Gore actually coming out on top when the recounts were done (and as it turns out, a more real possibility than some supposed disparate standards).
To top it off, the dissents rightly pointed out that the recounts in question hadn't even happened yet, so there was no fact basis for even determining there would be some uneven standards in violation of the newly discovered "equal protection" for vote counting (which, of course, if taken seriously, would invalidate a fair proportion of all elections in the last century).
It's the only case I've seen where the courts have said, "Yes, I agree, you might lose $10, if this goes through, and then crafts a penalty that orders many more similarly situated people to pay $1000.
There's plenty inexplicable .. or just plain wrong ... in the cowardly anonymous per curiam opinion (including the strange idea that it shouldn't be precedent but applies to people named "Dubya" only), but the above should do for starters....
Cheers,
The Weimahr Republic fell (in part - I'm oversimplifying) because it naively accepted inherently anti-democratic groups like the communists and the national socialists as valid political parties within the democratic system.
ReplyDeleteYa gotta love this sort of sophism. Hitler and his thugs took over the NSDAP; just because the party was called "Nationalsozialistische" doesn't mean that it actually was; in fact, the Nazis were uber-corporatists -- fascista. And the communists had nothing to do with the fall of the Weimar Republic -- they were among Hitler's primary targets. Socialist and communist parties are still active within the European democracies -- and parliaments.
It's the same principle as the old adage "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose," only on a more abstract level: "Your right to express your opinion stops at the point where you suggest that I should not be allowed to have my own."
What utter rot. Suggesting that your nose should hurt is not the same as striking your nose. Rather than being the "same principle", Yours is the complete opposite. The equivalent to hitting one's nose is actually preventing one from expressing their opinion -- precisely what you are defending.
The Bush v. Gore decision argued that the uncounted votes would "dilute" the counted votes. What a concept -- commonly known as "democracy".
ReplyDeleteanonymous:
ReplyDeleteArne, most of your comments are excellent, but this is just bizarre. Even the most cursory investigation reveals that Finkelstein is politically on the left (his close friendship with Noam Chomsky is a clue),...
Never heard of him, to be honest. He probably hasn't said anything worth my time in reading. But Noam Chomsky is hardly a standard bearer of the left, either.
My main complain was that the identification of Finkelstein as a "leftist" gives the imputation that his views on the Holocaust (or on the veracity of Holocaust victims) are necessarily associated with leftist views in general. Seems to me there is no such direct association, and I think the "leftist" appellation gratuitous, if not unfair.
It may be that Hypatia has mischaracterised Finkelstein's views (not quite sure that his alleged fondness for Irving's historical acumen means that he endorses Irving's entire view of the Holocaust; he may just consider him a good source of raw materials of interest, dunno...). If Finkelstein is saying the Holocaust numbers are inflated, that's one thing (and depending on the magnitude, there's no way to say hes' ocbviously wrong). If he's saying that there's a "victim industry", he ma very well have a point, at least in some cases (although my personal opinion is that any inequities WRT compensation in general have been to deny people their proper compensation on balance).
But not worth spending a lot of time on, IMO, here....
Cheers,
But Noam Chomsky is hardly a standard bearer of the left, either.
ReplyDeleteIt's strange that, after the sin is pointed out, it is repeated. Whether or not Chomsky is a standard bearer of the left (and I would dispute that he isn't -- do you even have a clue as to who the American left is? It is not represented by any Democratic party holder, certainly) has no bearing on whether he is a leftist.
My main complain was that the identification of Finkelstein as a "leftist" gives the imputation that his views on the Holocaust (or on the veracity of Holocaust victims) are necessarily associated with leftist views in general.
You complain about this without knowing any of the facts of the matter. In fact, his views of the Holocaust are directly connected to the left criticism of Israeli state policy, Zionism, and the financial support that Israel receives from AIPAC and other "Jewish" (AIPAC only represents a limited segment of Jews) organizations.
It may be that Hypatia has mischaracterised Finkelstein's views (not quite sure that his alleged fondness for Irving's historical acumen means that he endorses Irving's entire view of the Holocaust
Of course he doesn't.
; he may just consider him a good source of raw materials of interest, dunno...). If Finkelstein is saying the Holocaust numbers are inflated, that's one thing (and depending on the magnitude, there's no way to say hes' ocbviously wrong).
Finkelstein not only does not deny the Holocaust and its decimation of the Jews, but he refutes those who downplay its effect on other groups, such as the gypsies.
If he's saying that there's a "victim industry", he ma very well have a point, at least in some cases (although my personal opinion is that any inequities WRT compensation in general have been to deny people their proper compensation on balance).
Your personal opinion is irrelevant -- Finkelstein's findings are a matter of rigorous research, which is why even Raul Hilberg, author of "The Destruction of European Jews", has accepted them. For an overview of Finkelstein's position, see
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=36 ; the other materials at his site are also worth examining.
It may be that Hypatia has mischaracterised Finkelstein's views
ReplyDeleteI didn't much characterize his views, except to say he is a leftists who finds value in the Holocaust scholarship of David Irving. And that is all true. Not having a copy of Finkelstein's book in which he treats Irving, the next best thing I could do was link you to an approving review that mentions the book's embrace of Irving's scholarship, which I did.
Finkelstein first came to my attention ins a rather nasty manner. I had been discussing Holocaust denial at another site -- this was several years ago -- and the next day my mail box was flooded with obscenity-laden, nearly threatening screams that I was a Zionist shill, and that even a Jew like Norman Finkelstein knew the truth. I was further given to understand that Finkelstein and the denier outfit, the Institute for Historical Review, had mutual respect.
As a consequence, whenever I saw his name thereafter, it stuck. When I discovered he was way far left and affiliated with Alex Cockburn, I just chalked it up to the idea that if one travels too far round the bend in any ideological direction, one meets up with people who end up at much the same place having started from different points of departure.
I was further given to understand that Finkelstein and the denier outfit, the Institute for Historical Review, had mutual respect.
ReplyDeleteGiven to understand ... by whom? Screaming Nazi's filling your mailbox? Hey, there's a reliable source.
Finkelstein is used by Holocaust deniers the same way that Stephen Jay Gould is used by creationists. See his comment above about "worry that my book may incite anti-Semitism".
Given to understand ... by whom? Screaming Nazi's filling your mailbox? Hey, there's a reliable source.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have a burr under your saddle about all this; look, I don't much care about Norman Finkelstein. I brought him up only as an example of how once political speech is criminalized, it is not safe to assume it will capture only the far right. If he is some hero or icon of yours, it was not my intention to inflame you.
Finkelstein, as you agree, is far left. But he has approving things to say about Irving's Holocaust scholarship, and some deniers love Finkelstein. Those are the facts, and I raised them to show how attacks on free speech could also reach people who engender less sympathy than David Irving.
Ok?
Given to understand ... by whom? Screaming Nazi's filling your mailbox? Hey, there's a reliable source.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have a burr under your saddle about all this.
I have a burr under my saddle about intellectual dishonesty. I ask "given to understand ... by whom?", and you respond with an ad hominem. Par for the course.
some deniers love Finkelstein
There's no doubt that the deniers love Finkelstein, just as the creationists love Stephen Jay Gould. But as the reverse doesn't hold, this is interest only to dishonest propagandists.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou complain about this without knowing any of the facts of the matter....
Never claimed to know the "facts of the matter". Even were I to take what's been presented here as accurate, it's far from dispositive or detailed, even, WRT the allegations made. But, as I pointed out to Hypatia, quoting someone else for Finkelstein's views when his own words are available is being less than forthright.
... In fact, his views of the Holocaust are directly connected to the left criticism of Israeli state policy, Zionism, and the financial support that Israel receives from AIPAC and other "Jewish" (AIPAC only represents a limited segment of Jews) organizations.
Really? And why should I take your word for this assertion sans evidence that this is in fact true.
But let's not get bogged down here in minutiae. Finkelstein's views -- even if he thinks Irving and his amazingly accurate description of the Holocaust myth is the best thing since sliced bread (and even if such a view by Finkelstein is consonant with, and motivated by, Finkelstein's antipathy to Israeli gummint policy) -- is hardly the issue in Glenn's blog here. As even you pointed out, IIRC, many leftists have quite different views of Israel and of Zionism. Not even sure why Hypatia brought Finkelstein up (other than specifically that he was some alleged "lefty" and allegedly lauded Irving for something). To my mind, anti-Israeli gummint sentiments have nothing to do logically with the belief that the Holocaust never happened, and I think that it's a stretch and a slur to identify the entire group of people whop have problems with Israeli gummmint policy with Irving, just because one (or a few) people hold both opinions. Much less then extending that to "all the left".
Clear now? If so, can we drop this particular subject?
Cheers,
Ok?
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not ok. You claimed that "Actually tho,a Jewish leftist like Norman Finkelstein travels with Irving intellectually" and " he has sympathy for deniers, including Irving". Those claims are lies. Even your own source claims that Finkelstein finds Irving to be "nauseating". If he has "sympathy" for Irving, it is no more than any of us have for someone rotting in jail solely for articulating nauseating ideas.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThere's no doubt that the deniers love Finkelstein, just as the creationists love Stephen Jay Gould. But as the reverse doesn't hold, this is interest only to dishonest propagandists.
Sounds like you and I are in the same book, if not on the same page. I really don't know much about Finkelstein, but I think that I was first to ask Hypatia if she wasn't being a bit unfair to use someone else's words about Finkelstein to represent him. It's not uncommon to attribute to others views they don't hold, or to misquote or misconstrue them. I may agree with Finkelstein if I read enough of his stuff, or I many not, but I'd much rather read his stuff for an idea of what he's saying than what others of unknown motivations are saying he said.
Cheers,
quoting someone else for Finkelstein's views when his own words are available is being less than forthright
ReplyDeleteIndeed, as I expanded upon above.
Really? And why should I take your word for this assertion sans evidence that this is in fact true.
Uh, I provided a citation of his own words that make it crystal clear. Did you read it before offering this silly strawman? I said nothing about taking my word for anything. Sheesh.
To my mind, anti-Israeli gummint sentiments have nothing to do logically with the belief that the Holocaust never happened
Indeed they don't, but Finkelstein has never claimed that the Holocaust never happened -- just the opposite. You seem rather confused, at least partially a result of Hypatia's sophistry methinks. If you had bothered to read the citation I provided, it would be quite clear to you what the relationship is between Finkelstein's "anti-Israeli gummint sentiments" and his work on the Holocaust:
During the postwar years American Jewish leaders, eager to please the US government as it aligned with a barely de-Nazified West Germany, banished The Holocaust from public discourse. After the June 1967 Middle East war, Israel became a key ally of the US. American Jewish elites, hitherto wary of Israel (they feared the bogey of "dual loyalty"), fervently embraced the Jewish state. For Jews now stood on the front lines defending American interests against the retrograde Third World/Arab hordes. Supporting Israel accordingly facilitated Jewish assimilation in the US. Posing as the natural interlocutors between the US government and its "strategic asset" in the Middle East, Jewish elites could also enter the inner sanctums of American power. To deflect criticism, American Jewish elites "remembered" the Nazi holocaust which, ideologically recast, proved a potent weapon.
Clear now?
Sounds like you and I are in the same book, if not on the same page.
ReplyDeleteYes.
I really don't know much about Finkelstein, but I think that I was first to ask Hypatia if she wasn't being a bit unfair to use someone else's words about Finkelstein to represent him.
I didn't know we were competing for first claim.
Hypatia's potted characterizations of that characterization: "he values Irving’s scholarship on the Holocaust" and "the book's embrace of Irving's scholarship". "That is all true", she insists.
ReplyDeleteThat is true. I've seen Finkelstein linked with Irving approvingly many places, but I simply thought the Applebaum review would be an unobjectionable way of backing up my claim that your hero approves of Irving's scholarship. So hang me from the highest tree for not having Finkelstein's book and so being unable to quote from it directly.
If your standard for a right to comment is that one must only and always invoke primary sources, well, ok. It isn't mine about books one cannot link to, and my point about free speech has actually nothing to do with Norman Finkelstein per se.
Geez.
The point about Finkelstein is that the purported Applebaum characterization is nonsense. You aren't going to find love letters to Irving in his books. NF holds the same view of Irving that academia in general does - that he has done valuable archival and historical research, so his books are worth reading for specialists, but that since he has many flaky ideas he is not someone whose conclusions can be trusted. Finkelstein's general view of the WWII/Holocaust era is no different from Raul Hilberg's, or from the standard one, except in emphasizing things like the treatment of the Gypsies or of the Germans postwar which are not emphasized in many accounts.
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