According to the Op-Ed, "the press has betrayed not only its duties but its responsibilities" by not publishing the Mohammed cartoons. We are then subjected to one of the most nakedly hypocritical statements one will ever encounter:
[O]ur general agreement and understanding of the First Amendment and a free press is informed by the fact -- not opinion but fact -- that without broad freedom, without responsibility for the right to know carried out by courageous writers, editors, political cartoonists and publishers, our democracy would be weaker, if not nonexistent. There should be no group or mob veto of a story that is in the public interest.
As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack. But the very last people from whom we ought to be hearing sermons about the importance of free expression and a free press -- and about the accompanying duty of the press to publish even those ideas which provoke controversy, outrage and offense -- are Bush supporters, who are plainly engaged in a serious crusade to punish any journalists who express ideas which they dislike or which they believe produce undesirable consequences.
And of all the free-press-attacking Bush supporters, the very last one who has any basis for masquerading as a free press advocate is Bill Bennett, who has built a bloated career over several decades waging war on free expression and a free press, while attempting to compel suppression of ideas he finds offensive. Let us count the ways a free press is under vicious attack by the very people lecturing us about the grave threat to freedom posed by the Mohammed cartoon episode.
As I’ve written about before, the Bush Justice Department is now aggressively pursuing a criminal investigation into disclosure by The New York Times of the Administration’s decision to violate the law when eavesdropping on Americans. The DoJ’s investigation is targeted not only at the individuals in government who disclosed these violations but also at the Times itself, along with the individual journalists responsible for the disclosure, including reporter James Risen and NYT editor Bill Keller. Put simply, the Administration is threatening American journalists with imprisonment for doing exactly what the First Amendment is designed to ensure they can do – namely, report on controversial and legally dubious government actions against American citizens which the government attempts to conceal.
As a result, the demand by Bush followers for the criminal prosecution of The New York Times and the individual editors and reporters responsible for that story has now reached the level of "conservative" conventional wisdom. The influential neoconservative magazine Commentary this month published a long piece calling for criminal prosecution of the Times, Risen and Keller under the Espionage Act of 1917.
Following along, Scott "Big Trunk" Johnson of Powerline wrote an article in the Weekly Standard which he described this way:
The Weekly Standard has posted my column on the laws that govern the disclosure of the NSA program by the New York Times: "Exposure." I argue that the New York Times should be at considerable risk of criminal prosecution under the espionage laws for its disclosure of the NSA surveillance program. Moreover, the individuals at the Times responsible for its conduct in this matter -- James Risen, Bill Keller, Arthur Sulzberger, Jr. and others -- are in plain view. No extensive investigation is necessary to identify them.
Others who are parading around in disguise as free press advocates when calling for the publication of offensive cartoons they like, such as Michelle Malkin, The American Spectator, and others, have favorably cited the Commentary piece and/or joined in these calls for the imprisonment of the NYT journalists. Such principled crusaders for a free press they are.
It is critical to note that these increasingly strident calls for the criminal prosecution of journalists who published one of the most politically damaging stories of George Bush’s presidency are being issued in concert with a concerted effort by the Bush Administration to shape the criminal law so as to enable the criminal prosecution generally of journalists who inform the public of activities which the Administration wants to conceal.
As Fred Kaplan recently described in his vitally important article in Slate, the Justice Department is relying upon a novel and radical theory of the Espionage Act in the Larry Franklin/AIPAC spying case to prosecute not only the government employee (Franklin) who passed classified information to pro-Israeli lobbying groups, but also the private individuals who received that classified information. In other words, the Bush Administration is seeking to criminalize the very act which defines what an investigative journalist does and has always done in America:
An espionage trial about to begin in Alexandria, Va., could threaten the whole enterprise of investigative journalism. . . .
They [the private citizens who received the information are] charged with giving classified information not to foreign governments or spies but rather "to persons not entitled to receive it."
This is what journalists do routinely every day. . . . Still, if some attorney general were to view this case as a precedent, he could go after whole newsrooms on the grounds that the reporters and editors had "reason to believe" the information might be used to harm the United States or to help another country.
As Walter Pincus reported in The Washington Post (h/t Kevin Drum), the DoJ has constructed its case against these private citizens with the clear intent of laying the legal groundwork for being able to criminally prosecute any journalists who receive classified information – an attack on the very heart and soul of what our free press does in fulfilling its watchdog function over the Government:
A lawyer familiar with the AIPAC case said administration officials "want this case as a precedent so they can have it in their arsenal" and added: "This as a weapon that can be turned against the media."
So while Bush followers warn that a free press is threatened because some newspapers decide not to publish cartoons that are offensive to Muslims, the Bush Administration is threatening journalists in this country with imprisonment for publishing politically embarrassing stories, and is implementing legal theories to enable it to criminally prosecute American journalists who receive any information which the Government deems "classified." It is genuinely hard to imagine a more fundamental threat to a free and vibrant press than this.
Time and again, Bush supporters -- who masquerade as free press advocates when it comes to offensive or provocative ideas with which they agree -- have viciously attacked the press and accused them of engaging in subversive and even treasonous activities for a whole host of reasons -- from publishing Abu Ghraib photographs to reporting on torture and abusive treatment of Muslims at Guantanamo to warning about the escalating violence and the ever-deteriorating situation in Iraq. We are told that the press ought to refrain from publishing even true reports and images reflecting U.S. misconduct -- and is even guilty of subversion and treason when they do so -- because publication makes the U.S. look bad in the eyes of the world or undermines our "war effort."
Here is neoconservative commentator and Bush lover extraordinnaire Dennis Prager explaining why publication of the Abu Grahib photos is subversive and wrong:
The second example [of the "Left hurting America"] was a federal judge appointed by former President Bill Clinton ordering the Defense Department to release all remaining photos of prisoner abuse by Americans at Abu Ghraib prison. Though it is certain that the only effect of the photos will be to further endanger Americans at home and abroad and increase the danger to American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, and though there is absolutely no need for the public to see these photos, the judge ordered their release.
So, to recap so far: publishing stories which inflame Muslims by reporting on American abuses at Guantanamo is wrong and subversive and ought be suppressed. Anyone who states that Iraq is disintegrating and our war effort is failing is harming the troops and is a traitor who ought to be treated as such. Images which depict grotesque acts by the U.S. military are dangerous and their publication is treasonous. But when it comes to anti-Muslim cartoons which are at least as provocative and inflammatory, consequences be damned; lofty principles of a free press demand that they be published and published widely regardless of the reactions.
These demands by Bush followers that ideas be freely expressed without restraint are extremely selective – they want the ideas they like to be disseminated widely and aggressively but ideas which they dislike to be suppressed. In general, when one espouses standards and principles which one applies only selectively and in a self-interested manner, the result is just garden-variety hypocrisy. But when principles of a free press are applied selectively -- such that one urges some ideas to be vigorously safeguarded while other ideas be aggressively suppressed -- it is not merely hypocritical, but incomparably pernicious, because what is really being sought, by definition, is a system of laws and rules which exist to propagandize.
That is exactly the project which Bush followers (spearheaded by their neoconservative chapter) are relentlessly pursuing with their simultaneous attacks on the press (when it comes to ideas which undermine their agenda) and cynical defense of unrestrained expression (when it comes to ideas which promote that agenda). But a press which exists to disseminate anti-Muslim ideas but which must refrain from publishing ideas that reflect poorly on the U.S. or the Administration is not a free press. That is a Pravda-like propaganda arm of the state which exists to glorify the government and promote its aims. That is plainly what these Bush followers are trying to institute.
It is worth remembering that Bush followers have a long and clear history of advocating suppression of ideas which they dislike. Here is Jonah Goldberg -- in an article entitled: "Censorship. Just do it." -- reminding us of the belief in the suppression of ideas which lies at the heart of the Bush movement, including by newfound free expression advocate Bill Bennett:
You don't have to dust off your books by William Bennett and George Will to understand that it is an indisputable fact that the Founding Fathers believed the good character of the citizenry was essential to a healthy republic. And, they believed, laws crafted at the local level — including censorship — could and should be aimed at maintaining good character.
And here is Bill Bennett himself, in the wake of the controversy surrounding Janet Jackson’s breast, advocating government penalties against Howard Stern for expressing bad, inappropriate thoughts and urging increased penalties from the Government for those who express ideas which Bennett thinks are offensive and wrong:
Yes, there are government instituted fines for indecency—and they likely influence private decisions. But that is to the good, just as there are fines for other kinds of public polluting—the effect of which does encourage private corporations and individuals to act more responsibility; to not trash the streets, the air, or the culture. Indecency fines are effective to be sure, and they probably should be increased.
In the same essay, Bennett explains that "censorship" only exists when the government bars the expression of ideas, not when private media entities cave into pressure and refuse to publish them on their own. Back then -- when it came to the suppression of ideas that he disliked -- Bennett insisted that there was nothing disturbing at all about private media entities refusing to publish provocative or offensive ideas in response to public outrage -- the very opposite of the argument he advanced this morning in the Post. In fact, for years Bennett has been working to pressure media entities -- including with threats of legislation and fines -- to refrain from publishing ideas Bennett finds offensive.
Attacks on the expression of controversial and provocative ideas is a core principle of this strain of self-identified "conservatives." A pro-censorship cover story by David Lowenthal was published in The Weekly Standard which was entitled "The Case for Censorship" (a chapter in Robert Bork's best-selling book bore the same name and expressed the same pro-censorship views). Bennett himself praised Lowenthal's pro-censorship article by writing: "I agree with much in professor Lowenthal's article," but concluded that censorship would be difficult to implement because of the public opposition it would provoke.
What is going on here could not be clearer. A free press is one of the few remaining checks on our government. People like Bennett want to compel the press to publish ideas which they like by disguising their demands under a banner of a principled belief in a free press – a belief which immediately disappears when the press publishes ideas that they dislike or which are politically damaging to the President, in which case the press should be attacked as subversive and treasonous and even be criminally prosecuted by the Bush Administration.
While Bennett decries the unwillingness of the media to stand up to Muslim mobs, the press has been deafeningly silent about the Justice Department's threats of criminal prosecution against the NYT and the Administration's legal maneuverings to enable further attacks of criminal prosecution on investigative journalism generally. Genuine advocates of a free press would be highly alarmed, and outraged, not only by the self-censorship of newspapers with regard to these cartoons, but also by the concerted efforts within our country, from the Bush Administration, to intimidate and suppress anti-government journalism.
Spot on. Reading Bill Bennett -- Bill "Drug Czar" Bennett! -- rhapsodizing about freedom of any kind is enough to cause one's synapses to lock-up.
ReplyDeleteDershowitz has the creds for that article, but I have to wonder what the hell he was thinking in joining up with an authoritarian jack@ss like Bennett.
Why is the press irresponsible for printing the inflammatory Abu Ghraib photos, and yet under a "duty" to reprint the inflammatory cartoons?
ReplyDeleteThat isn't the only point, or even most important point, of the post, in my opinion. The attacks on the press from the DoJ are way more important than the Abu Ghraib stuff.
If you want one-paragraph slogans, go read bumper stickers. I prefer a developed argument with evidence.
Funny how Bill Bennett and Co. rhapsodize about the wonder of the free economic market, but don't endorse the free market of ideas. Could it be because they know that free market of ideas, like the free economic market, can be rigged? The echo chamber phenomena, where patently false statements morph into truth once repeated enough, proves that. And given that those crazy freedom-haters at the NYT might actually have a backbone and publish something damaging to the administration, means that the administration has lost a little of it's grip on the media in this country. For now.
ReplyDeleteJust one more piece of the constitution that needs to be reframed in the quest for the installment of the unitary executive.
ReplyDeleteThis issue should be tied with the others (NSA, Port) as the dots are connected for the public. The duplicity of their free press argument is part of the overall lie. The issue of free press is the issue related to the dominance of the local radio by a single idea. In using the local radio in the campaign to push the NSA/Port connection as one in the same you are fighting for free press.
What frustrates me about the press today, and in particular the Daniel Okrents and the Deborah Howells, is that they side with the Republicans when it is clear that the GOP wants to destroy them.
ReplyDeleteAnn Coulter wants to bomb the NYT. All I want is for the NYT staff to do their jobs.
One would think that if the Democrats were asking for a free press and the Republicans were asking for a non-existent press (aside from a propoganda machine), the press would ally themselves with the Democrats, if only for self-preservation purposes.
And yet, there is a consistent refrain from the established reporters and editors that the criticism from the Left is nothing but the rabble of an unhinged mob. While the Right is either joking (Coulter) or legitimately upset (Bennett).
Bizarre.
What frustrates me about the press today, and in particular the Daniel Okrents and the Deborah Howells, is that they side with the Republicans when it is clear that the GOP wants to destroy them.
ReplyDeleteI was genuinely amazed that the press said and did almost nothing in response to the NYT article by David Johnston reporting that the Justice Department is targeting its criminal investigation to the Times, Risen and Keller.
Maybe there were a few stray editorial protests, but I didn't see any. Wouldn't you think that every media outlet would be making an agressive statement opposing the idea that the NYT could and should be criminally prosecuted for the NSA story - let alone that journalists generally should be prosecuted for receiving classified infromation?
There is just silence from them - not really a peep of real protest from the media about these threats from the Administration against a free press. I find that extremely significant.
We are at war. Any action taken by the president to protect the nation is un fettered by constitutional authority. Also, any information deemed to be sensitive must be controlled. Since the pentagon considers the media to be a part of the war, the media is thus under direct control of the President. Any questions?
ReplyDeleteI think that MSM journalists should take an oath of poverty, get off the merry-go-round, join the blogsphere and fight like there's no tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteI find it curious that conservatives are urging publication of the inflammatory muslim cartoons. Could it be to foment local muslim strife, thereby bolstering the administrations claim for the importance of warrantless eavesdropping?
ReplyDeleteWe definitley need a bonafide federal sheild law to protect the media from becoming a republican amen machine.
I think the post provides a solid summary of the strategy of the constant war on the media by those very participants. Mr. Bennett has had a place in the bully pulpit a very long time. I think his days as a moral navigation device should now have run their course. It's remarkable how quickly he returns to his role as useful tool.
ReplyDeleteGlenn...
ReplyDeleteMy default position is to distrust the government. Am I now a conservative?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteIf push comes to shove, the NYT will sell out its editors, make a deal to clear any potential leaks through the Gov, and go on making money.
No way the NYT would jeopardize their revenue stream for a principle.
Yet another wonderful, provocative, and insightful article, Mr. Greenwald. Don't let the gub-ment getcha.
ReplyDeleteWhile I wholeheartedly agree with you on the freedom of the press issue, I am reminded of what the late Fred Friendly said (which I paraphrase): "When it comes to freedom of the press, we shouldn't confuse the right to publish, with what is right to publish".
ReplyDeleteThat said, it seems to me that conservatives, by urging publication of the cartoons, are using the free press issue not as a shield, but as a sword to show their disdain for Muslims. I don't think that's what the Framers had in mind.
It's worth noting that Michelle Malkin (who published the cartoons and went on Fox News to show them) has been the victim of a cyberattack this morning. Her site is down, and according to her post at PJ Media, the source of the attack appears to be from Turkey.
I'm not making the same connection, Glenn. Their (you know, 'them') argument will be that freedom of the press should not include breaching security or classified information.
ReplyDeleteLeaking the NSA story was absolutely necessary and I agree 100%, but I think the Abu photos are a better argument for why Bennetts argument is so...so...stupid, especially because 'they' argued, with the publication of those photos, that they would 'incite violence' - but here 'they' aregue that it is okay to incite violence, because it demonstrates the need for freedom of the press.
When Bush was running for President the first time in 2000 there was a website that was very negative about him that ran under a name that used his name in the title.
ReplyDeleteHis team tried to get it shut down.
Bush's comment about Free Speech at the time:
There ought to be limits
The signs were all there for everyone to see.
Even just recently a person told me in response to a comment I made about Bush that was negative but undeniably true:
Well, at least he's a good Christian
Their (you know, 'them') argument will be that freedom of the press should not include breaching security or classified information.
ReplyDeleteWe have never criminally prosecuted journalists in this country for publishing classified information, especially where the information is a matter of public interest.
If journalists can go to prison for receiving or publishing classified information, we don't have a free press anymore, since the Government controls what is classified and can simply categorize as "classified" anything which is politically embarrassing (as this Administration does) and no journalists will publish it or even receive it for fear of being criminally prosecuted.
That's an infinitely more serious threat to a free press than the controversy over Abu Ghraib photos, even if it's a bit more complex to explain.
"Well, at least he's a good Christian."
ReplyDeleteIs he? Please Define "Good Christian" for me and Explain how his policies fit that definition.
Bleh!
I'd beg to differ on that one.
*snark*
There is just silence from them...
ReplyDeleteIndeed there is. I suspect the silence will grow even more deafening as the time gets closer to criminal charges being filed.
This is a crucial action for our nation. The NY Times, Risen and Keller must be held criminally liable for their decision to reveal the classified NSA program details. Once and for all we need to establish limits to what the press in this country can reveal during times of war.
It is high time that the press realizes that they are not above the law. Glenn Greenwald has written ten million words, often using hysterical tones, decrying the president's decision to conduct warrantless surveillance. Greenwald claims this is the highest of crimes, and that the president is a "lawbreaker." Gleen is even attempting to organize a movement to influence our public officials to hold the president to account for this action, which Greenwald and his acolytes hope and pray will destroy the Bush presidency.
Then, barely pausing to take a breath, Glenn has the nerve to champion the NY Times for its decision to break the law by publishing classified information that may indeed have aided our enemies in time of war. A neutral observer would be stupefied at this naked example of hypocrisy, and wonder if, after all, Greenwald and his minions are possessed of any principles whatsoever.
It is an old saying that hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue. In this case, Glenn has given us a marvelous contemporary example of how true that saying really is.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThose that released the NSA wiretapping story should be arrested, tried & hopefully convicted if found guilty. While it has not been proven that any laws were broken by the Bush Administration, you insist on moving forward like they were & that they had already been convicted, yet Congress apparently doesn’t share you same views. Once Congress or the courts have actually held hearings & the Bush Administration has had a chance to defend itself, then I might buy your arguments & demand to treat the Executive Branch as though it is guilty.
Is there questionably activity, yes I think you have demonstrated a valid of enough of an argument to justify the hearings, but to claim this is an onslaught of the free press is hysterical & totally unfounded. What purpose did the 32 days of front page articles about Abu Ghraib do that the 1st 2 days of front page coverage wouldn’t have? It was merely a means to disgrace the Bush Administration, which consequently placed out troops in danger & inflamed Muslims worldwide. Once again you use a proponent of the right, Bill Bennent, but no one actually associated w/ the administration to tar & feather them before the facts are released. You rely on conjecture to further feed a political frenzy, which will of course totally backfire as a method of generating controversy because it will look like what it is, purely political. The louder you become, the more partisan & subjective you will appear & this ultimately will help the Bush Administration & the Republican agenda more then you see & harm the Democrat’s chances in the 2008 election.
It’s funny you claim that those that support the Administration are “cultists” because they refuse to see the other side, but you’re completely comfortable w/ total conjecture & presupposing guilt in everything the Bush Administration does. Like I have said, it is a great quality to have as a defense attorney, but is lousy & too partisan to remain objective as a political commentator. To see guilt w/o allowing the process of a defense shows which side it is that blindly believes or belongs to a cult. I hope you notice that I don’t immediately assume because you ignore the due process rights of the Bush Administration, that I assume it represents the entire Democratic Party or proclaim those that agree w/ you members of some “collectivist cult.”
The funny thing is that by continuing this method of attack, the left is actually weakening their chances of re-gaining any semblance of political power again.
I was genuinely amazed that the press said and did almost nothing in response to the NYT article by David Johnston reporting that the Justice Department is targeting its criminal investigation to the Times, Risen and Keller.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Virtually the only time the press has stood up for itself in the past 6 years has been to defend Judith Miller's right to not testify.
Now, I could understand the defense of Miller -- despite the fact that Miller's actions helped the administration stifle free expression by punishing Wilson for his Op-Ed -- as the knee-jerk actions of a press that instinctively defends itself if the press would defend itself at other times.
But, as you point out, the administration criminally targets the NYT and....silence.
CNN's Eason Jordan is drummed out of his job for expressing concern for the safety of journalists in Iraq and...crickets chirping.
Newsweek is viciously attacked when it publishes a blurb that, while slightly inaccurate, repeats old news about the Koran being intentionally desecrated in Guantanamo Bay and...the sound of a tree falling in the woods with nobody around.
Meanwhile, it is revealed that Armstrong Williams has been bribed to print pro-Bush/Cheney propaganda and the collective outrage of the mainstream press sounds is slightly more quiet than an ant fart. Despite the fact that the story implicates BOTH the ethics of the government and the ethics of journalists.
While I continue to believe that many journalists behave as they do out of a herd mentality (Democrats are perceived as the geeks that the Kool Kidz don't want to be seen with), I think that we have to seriously consider that writers and editors (and producers and talking heads) have actually been bribed and blackmailed into silence.
IMO one important reason that the US press should publish info which makes the US "look bad", is that the citizenry needs to know what the rest of the world knows and thinks about the USA. The internet helps, but all too many Americans never go looking. Then they are so easily surprised when they, seldom, hear something less than glowing about the country.
ReplyDeleteGedaliya...
ReplyDeletepray will destroy the Bush presidency.
That is not the point. The point is to stop an assault on the very definition of what it is to be an American.
In the land of the free the government cannot intrude on your privacy without a warrant, throw you in jail without charges and possibly torture and kill you with no explanation to anyone for its reasons.
That is not America...it is a nightmare.
Good Lord, Glenn. Apparently, you've never even *heard* of writer's block. :) An excellent and lengthy post every day, sometimes two or three a day. Truly nice work!
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't dispute the legal right of publications to print the Muhammed cartoons at all, I disagree that they should be published. I think it's a question of propriety as opposed to legality. Virtually nobody I've heard or read from either side of the political spectrum is disputing their *right* to publish these photos, so publishing them would be an empty exercise at best. At worst, it could enflame even more Muslims and make the violence that much worse, all for cartoons that have no real constructive value at all. The Abu Ghirab photos served as sunshine into our military's barbaric policy and was (and is) an agent of positive change. I can't say the same thing about these cartoons.
There is just silence from them - not really a peep of real protest from the media about these threats from the Administration against a free press. I find that extremely significant.
ReplyDeleteYour concerns are definitely valid, Glenn, but anyone who's following the impending sale of Knight Ridder can tell you that Wall Street is the far bigger threat to the free press than the Bush Administration could ever hope to be.
For nearly 30 years, journalism in this country has been slowly choked to death by bottom-line economics. In the name of short-term profit interest, reporters are being downsized, investigations are being replaced by cheap talk, and our news is being dumbed-down to appeal to the younger demographics that advertisers crave.
This is happening in plain sight, and yet there are scant few people who are truly calling attention to this threat from within. I find THAT extremely significant.
But perhaps that would explain why so few journalists are complaining about the Bush Administration's war on criticism. Maybe they're more concerned about getting fired than getting thrown in jail.
Glenn has the nerve to champion the NY Times for its decision to break the law by publishing classified information that may indeed have aided our enemies in time of war.
ReplyDeleteWhat law is that?
The press repeatedly published classified information throughout the 20th Century. All pieces of investigative journalism, almost by definition, entail the publication of classified information. Which prior administrations, if any, criminally prosecuted journalists for doing that?
And how were "our enemies" helped by this disclosure? Did they not previously know we were eavesdropping on them?
Ah, the trolling has begun.
ReplyDeleteThis is priceless. The Abu Ghraib photos are
merely a means to disgrace the Bush Administration, which consequently placed out troops in danger & inflamed Muslims worldwide. Once again you use a proponent of the right, Bill Bennent, but no one actually associated w/ the administration to tar & feather them before the facts are released.
Bill Bennett is a tool. Deny that he has ties to this administration at your peril. He is a conduit and a mouthpiece. That's pretty obvious to all but those in the cult. You cannot argue that the supression of the Abu Ghraib photos is wrong on the grounds of inflammatory speech and that the publication of the Danish cartoons is justified. Bennett's position is one of empty hypocrisy.
Now, the supporters of the Administration are certainly authoritarian cultists (what could be clearer than their posts here) but they have failed to show that Glenn is actually arguing that Bennett is a member of the administration. He is not. He is another authoritarian who wishes to impose unconstitutional strictures on his countrymen and will carry water from whomsoever's bucket to do so. Which I think, contra trollery, is the thrust of Glenn's piece.
Hypatia, Dershowitz has proved himself to be an authoritarian tool. A little torture is a good thing, Larry Summers is a great guy, and Norman Finkelstein's work should be supressed: all positions Dershowitz has lately taken. He's willing to be used, just like Bennett.
Pmain writes: Those that released the NSA wiretapping story should be arrested, tried & hopefully convicted if found guilty.
ReplyDeleteWe've talked about this here before, and I raised some discomfort at the idea of the leakers just breaking the law. But as Glenn pointed out, in this political climate there was no meaningful way for these people mto bring to light serious law-breaking by the Executive.
It defies rational belief to think the terrorists didn't know their communications were being monitored, and it is absurd to argue they would care that that is taking place sans warrants, in violation of American law. (Terrorists are not "rule of law" kinda guys.)
And really, just where is the hue and cry to prosecute the ostensible "leakers" of the story that the Administration is employing radiation detection technology to detect dirty bombs in American mosques, all without (gasp!) warrants? You won't see any call for those prosecutions, because that "leak," about a week after the NSA scandal broke, was a Bush-friendly one. It was meant to connect the notion of warrants with dirty bombs and mosques, and get the public focused on that, rather than on telecommunication surveillance in violation of FISA.
A public preoccupied with mosques and dirty bombs won't care about warrants; that's why that operation was "leaked"; and that is why there will be no proescution of those leakers.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"This is a crucial action for our nation. The NY Times, Risen and Keller must be held criminally liable for their decision to reveal the classified NSA program details. Once and for all we need to establish limits to what the press in this country can reveal during times of war."
Of course the problem with your argument here is Gedaliya that:
A: The times went to Bush before publishing the story. He asked them not to run it but he didn't have them arrested. If what they did was truly illegal why didn't he have them arrested and have the story quashed?
B: The times sat on the story for a year before they did publish it at the request of the Bush administration and even then they agreed to withhold certain details that were deemed to actually compromise security.
I hope to God your vision of how the press should act never comes true. Because then we will truly be in danger. Not from external threats but from our own government.
I don't scare easily. After reading your post, and speaking as a journalist, I'm having to re-adjust my thinking.
ReplyDeletePerhaps those of us who are on the front lines of journalism, the small community weeklies, should risk our careers and begin expanding our scope, or reporting if you will, of national issues. The people in our communities, for the most part, trust us. If we could tell them how dangerously close the current administration is to tyranny, they might listen. And, perhaps, take action.
These are serious times. They deserve serious people to take action.
We are beyond partisanship. Our country's very future is at stake.
As a journalist, and a father, I have become frightened about the country I will leave to my children.
Karen McL said...
ReplyDelete"Well, at least he's a good Christian."
"Is he? Please Define "Good Christian" for me and Explain how his policies fit that definition.
Bleh!
I'd beg to differ on that one."
I differed on it also and told the person I was talking to so.
I am not a Christian myself but I know enough about the faith to know when someone is not following it's principles.
Bennett and Dershowitz are simply whores. That is, it profits them to advance these "opinions." We'll never see them arguing for anything that might cost them.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, and they also are old guys that desparately want limelight, so pretend to be transgressive when in fact they are repressive.
What law is that?
ReplyDeleteI am surprised, counselor, that you're not aware of the...
1917 ESPIONAGE ACT
§798. Disclosure of Classified Information.
(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—
(1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use
of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or
(2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes;
or
(3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or
(4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes—
Shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
( b) As used in this subsection (a) of this section—
The term “classified information” means information which, at the time of a violation of this section, is, for reasons of national security, specifically designated by a United States
Government Agency for limited or restricted dissemination or distribution;
The terms “code,” “cipher,” and “cryptographic system” include in their meanings, in addition to their usual meanings, any method of secret writing and any mechanical or electrical device or method used for the purpose of disguising or concealing the contents, significance, or meanings of communications; The term “foreign government” includes in its meaning any person or persons acting or purporting to act for or on behalf of any faction, party, department, agency, bureau, or military force of or within a foreign country, or for or on behalf of any government or any person or persons purporting to act as a government within a foreign country, whether or not such government is recognized by the United States; The term “communication intelligence” means all procedures and methods used in the interception of communications and the obtaining of information from such communications by other than the intended recipients;
Great writing as usual Mr. Greenwald.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Mr. Bennett suffers with short-term memory lapses. I am sending him a copy of this post as a refresher.
gris lobo writes:
ReplyDeleteIf what they did was truly illegal why didn't he have them arrested and have the story quashed?
Be patient. Criminal charges are most likely forthcoming.
The times sat on the story for a year before they did publish it at the request of the Bush administration and even then they agreed to withhold certain details that were deemed to actually compromise security.
I am sure their defense attorneys will make that point during the trial. It will be interesting to see if the jury believes their actions mitigate the charges against them.
This assault on journalism raises the bar on the chilling effect. The warratless spying is just one program. Indeed the administration may be allowing only a peek into one small aspect of it, one with the least for potential political fallout.
ReplyDeleteHow many insiders have been disturbed enough about dubious activities to pick up the phone, only to hang it up again in fear of being a victim of the acts they are involved in.
If one thinks it could be worse, it probably already is in this case.
As long as the Administration gets to define when we are "at war" and what is "classified," this isn't going to be resolved.
ReplyDeleteOversight needs to be re-established immediately.
Glenn, great post but I can't help but feel I've entered the twightlight zone with some of the comments. Like this:
ReplyDeleteThe NY Times, Risen and Keller must be held criminally liable for their decision to reveal the classified NSA program details. Once and for all we need to establish limits to what the press in this country can reveal during times of war.
The story on its face was a direct violaiton of the FISA law that was written to combat unchecked presidential power of easedropping on US citizens. That law was written during war time, for this very purpose.
I find myself (more freqently of late) becoming utterly speechless at the outright demand we subvert the constitution. I'm never quite sure if these people are REALY serious. They must be joking right? You don't really want to invest that much power in the president do you?
But, I guess I have to second the notion I've read elsewhere facts are seen as inherently biased and liberal because they contradict what one has already decided to believe so they are inconvenient, unless they can be used to political advantage. Much like Bennett's support for cartoons over Abu Graib photos. The cartoons are politically advantagous but the Abu Graib photos are very much inconvenient and must be give aid and comfort to our enemy.
I guess I'm just easily flabergasted by those without shame enough to not feel the pinch of hypocracy when they advocate such positions.
Perhaps if someone would have leaked classified information on how intel was being fixed around an Iraqi invasion, Iraq would not now be embroiled in a civil war, we would be richer by the billions and our soldiers wouldn't have been spent based on shake and bake intel.
ReplyDeletegedaliya -
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm sure Glenn can defend himself, I think you'll find that only "leakers" have been charged under that statute, not journalists.
I am surprised, counselor, that you're not aware of the...
ReplyDeleteThere is great controversy over whether that law can be used in these cases. It has always been assumed by legal scholars that it coudln't be, and for that reason, the gov't has never used the law as an Official States Secret Act like they have in England. That's why Justice lawyers are trying to find a novel way to use it in the AIPAC prosecution.
Are you aware of any of that controversy? Do you have any idea of the rationale as to why this law can't be used the way you want to use it? Do you have any idea what you're even talking about?
Or, as I suspect, did you see the law cited in Glenn's post and then go cut and paste it like the good little authortarian monkey that you are?
PMain said...
ReplyDelete"What purpose did the 32 days of front page articles about Abu Ghraib do that the 1st 2 days of front page coverage wouldn’t have? It was merely a means to disgrace the Bush Administration, which consequently placed out troops in danger & inflamed Muslims worldwide."
What should inflame everyone is what happened at Abu Ghraib, not that the pictures were published afterwards.
And what should further inflame everyone is that it hasn't stopped. At Guantanamo the military has admitted force feeding detainees on hunger strike through nasal tubes.
"by David Usborne and Ben Russell
A UN report is expected to call on the United States to close its Guantanamo Bay detention centre in Cuba without delay and transfer the near-500 supposed "enemy combatants" held there to American soil to guarantee them access to fair trials.
A leaked draft of the document, written over 18 months by five independent experts in international law appointed by the UN Commission on Human Rights, says the inmates at Guantanamo are being denied their rights to mental and physical health to a degree that sometimes amounts to torture.
The draft, reported by the Los Angeles Times, raises particular concern about the treatment of inmates on hunger strike, which involves forcible insertion of feeding tubes through the nasal cavity and into the stomach, excessive violence during transportation and interrogation techniques that "must be assessed as amounting to torture"."
While I'm sure Glenn can defend himself, I think you'll find that only "leakers" have been charged under that statute, not journalists.
ReplyDeleteTake a look at this case: United States of America v. Samuel Loring Morison.
I find myself (more freqently of late) becoming utterly speechless at the outright demand we subvert the constitution. I'm never quite sure if these people are REALY serious. They must be joking right? You don't really want to invest that much power in the president do you?
ReplyDeleteI agree entirely. To hear so many people urging that journalists who broke one of the most politically significant stories of the decade be imprisoned - imprisoned - makes you feel like you're not really in America. But the motives of the strident minority who urge such measures have become increasingly clear:
Many of them are just run-of-the-mill un-American authoritarians of the type which has always existed as a minority.
Many others hate Arabs with a consuming intensity - because they grew up being taught that Arabs were their enemies - that their principal goal is an overriding, raging desire to wage war on Arabs and they oppose any limits on the anti-arab war, whether the limits be constitutional, legal, political or otherwise.
Many others are just frightened and scared - as Gedaylia has described before, he sits in front of the television watching scary pictures of Arabs and wants George Bush to protect him from them, because he's frightened. When cowards are frightened, they want protection first and foremost and are willing to sacrifice their liberties and the rights of others in order to feel more secure.
And still others see this as a religious war - that Islam is a heathen and evil religion and we need to wage war against it, and that outweighs everything else.
Whether it's authoritarian instincts, an ingraned hatred of Arabs, one's status as a frightened victim of the Administration's fear-mongering, or a belief that we are waging a religious war -- or, as is true for many of them, some toxic combination of those beliefs -- all of that outweighs quaint notions like a free press or constitutional limits.
In my view, that's what explains the bulk of the motives of Bush followers in advocating defintively un-American notions such as imprisoning journalists or vesting unchecked power in the President to break the law.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"What law is that?
I am surprised, counselor, that you're not aware of the...
1917 ESPIONAGE ACT
§798. Disclosure of Classified Information."
And there isn't anything in that act that applies to what the NYT printed.
Gabriel Schoenfeld, editor of the magnificent Commentary, has published an article in the March 2006 issue that speaks directly to this question:
ReplyDeleteHas the “New York Times” Violated the Espionage Act?
The last paragraph:
The Justice Department has already initiated a criminal investigation into the leak of the NSA program, focusing on which government employees may have broken the law. But the government is contending with hundreds of national-security leaks, and progress is uncertain at best. The real question that an intrepid prosecutor in the Justice Department
should be asking is whether, in the aftermath of September 11, we as a nation can afford to permit the reporters and editors of a great newspaper to become the unelected authority that determines for all of us what is a legitimate secret and what is not. Like the Constitution itself, the First Amendment’s protections of freedom of the press are not a suicide pact. The laws governing what the Times has done are perfectly clear; will they be enforced?
I will believe that the threatened prosecutions of both those who leaked the NSA illegalities, and the newspaper that published the story, I will believe the administration cares only about upholding the law relating to classified programs -- and not its own damaged reputation -- when we also see a prosecution for this leak.
ReplyDeleteWe won't see that prosecution -- notwithstanding that as is noted in that U.S. News and World Report story it is a classified program that was disclosed -- because Bush wanted that program leaked.
Gedaylia has described before, he sits in front of the television watching scary pictures of Arabs and wants George Bush to protect him from them, because he's frightened.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, you seem confused.You stated in another thread that my motivation in defending the president was because I am overwhelmed by his "phallic greatness." Are you now saying that I am in fear of his "phallic greatness" or simply in fear of Arabs?
Thank you, Glenn- amazing post!
ReplyDeletepolitically lost said:
ReplyDeleteI find myself (more freqently of late) becoming utterly speechless at the outright demand we subvert the constitution. I'm never quite sure if these people are REALY serious. They must be joking right? You don't really want to invest that much power in the president do you?
I am a combat veteran that fought for our freedoms, or at least that is why I joined and fought in yet another war that turned out to have been prosecuted on lies and deceit. Viet Nam. And I am sickened by what has happened to my country.
Our freedoms are even further gone than I think even some of the aware people on this blog realize, I know I didn't until I read this:
Feb 21, 2006
"It’s Munich In America. There Will Be No Normandy.
by David Michael Green
This is it, folks. This is the scenario our Founders lost sleep over. This is the day they prepared us for.
It’s Munich in America, people. We can dream the pleasant dream that if we just stand by quietly while the Boy King gobbles up some of our liberties, he won’t want any more, but that would be a lot like Chamberlain dreaming that a chunk of Czechoslovakia would be enough to appease Hitler. It wasn’t, and it won’t be.
Already they’ve torn large chunks out of the Constitution.
Article One creates the legislative branch, that which the Founders intended to be the most powerful and consequential. Today, we have a president who makes the stunning assertion that he is the “sole organ for the nation in foreign affairs”. This Congress seems mostly to agree, even though the Founders gave them the power to declare war, to fund all governmental activities, to ratify treaties and to oversee the executive. Who, us? Bye-bye Article One.
Article Three creates a Supreme Court to adjudicate disputes (especially over governmental powers) and to protect the Constitution. But BushCo can’t be bothered to follow even the Court’s tentative interventions into due process concerning Guantánamo and beyond. And why should it? By the time they get done with loading the damn thing up with ‘unitary executive’ fifth-column shills like Roberts and Alito, it will be a moot court, just like the ones in law school. Once the Supreme Court becomes a wholly-owned subsidiary of the executive branch (about one vote from now), it’s bye-bye Article Three.
The First Amendment guarantees the freedom to assemble in protest. But protest is a joke in Bush’s America. People are kenneled off into pens so far from the president he is never confronted with any contrary views at all, apart from the odd funeral he has to show up at but Rove can’t script. The halls of Congress are ground zero for American democracy, much boasted about at home and jammed down the throat of the world (except when the results don’t favor American corporate or strategic interests). But go there and sit in the balcony wearing a t-shirt with the number of dead soldiers in Iraq printed on it and see how fast you get a lesson in Bush’s interpretation of the Bill of Rights. And that little display at the state of the union address was no freak event, either. That kind of thing happened all the time during the 2004 campaign. At Bush rallies, people were getting arrested for the bumper-stickers on their cars.
The First Amendment also protects freedom of the press. That freedom has not been eliminated, per se, but it has been effectively neutered beyond effectiveness. Between the White House intimidating most of the press, coopting the rest, stonewalling information requests, planting stories in the American and foreign media, and buying off journalists, today’s mainstream media has too often become a pathetic megaphone for White House lies, and that includes those supposed bastions of liberalism, the New York Times and the Washington Post. Bye-bye First Amendment.
The Fourth Amendment guarantees “against unreasonable searches and seizures” and requires that “no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation”. Can you say “NSA”? “Guantánamo”? “Abu Ghraib”? It’s bad enough that Bush has authorized himself to bug anybody, arrest anybody, convict anybody and silence anybody, but his NSA chief doesn’t even appear to have read the Fourth Amendment. That whole thing about probable cause was lost on him, as he and his president simultaneously trampled the separation of powers and checks and balances doctrines by eliminating two out of three branches of government from their little surveillance loop.
And take with it the Fifth (no one shall “be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”), the Sixth (“the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury”, the right “to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense”), and the Eighth, providing against “cruel and unusual punishments”). Boom, boom, boom.
he sits in front of the television watching scary pictures of Arabs and wants George Bush to protect him from them, because he's frightened.
ReplyDeleteNot sure I agree with this. I don't think they are all that frightened. They simply see this as the fast lane to advancing their agenda. Which is why they are happy to continue propagate this faux war.
They will continue to do this until there is some sort of direct personal sacrifice that hits home with them. The speak of shared sacrifice, but please, can you tell me what the wealthy and people in power have sacrificed for this so-called "war"?
It is a political and economic boon for them. The one problem, as with all booms, is that it is unsustainable. What results from the fallout is what frightens me. What will the political and constitutional landscape look like when they can't plunder any more?
A committed advocate of a free press would also recognize that the press also has the right not to publish.
ReplyDeleteIn the age of the internets, the cartoons have been published, and anyone can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons
So the question for the press now is, What is the story, and how do the pictures advance it?
I would like to know: What is the Bennett-Dershowitz story, and how would the pictures advance it? What sort of conversation would have preceded their decision to sit down together and craft this dissertation?
A story conceived as a thumb in the eye will likely be experienced as hostile. A story conceived as a humane exploration of the issues, illustrated as appropriate, deserves a polite hearing from fanatics and virtue hawks of all persuasions.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"Be patient. Criminal charges are most likely forthcoming."
If the act was illegal and the concern was for National Security then Bush knowing that it was going to be published and not having the Times reporters arrested and the story quashed would also be guilty.
"I am sure their defense attorneys will make that point during the trial. It will be interesting to see if the jury believes their actions mitigate the charges against them."
Yeah I look forward to seeing Bush sitting in the box answering the prosecutors questions.
To get an idea of how bad it could get for the 1st amendment, comphrensively (press, expression, religion), just read this article by nascent proto-fascist Ben Shapiro.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the previous poster. The problem is larger than the current administration's manipulatations of the 4th estate. 6 companies now own almost all media in this country, and yet futher deregulation is being considered, including deregulations that previously ensured open access to the internet.
hypatia said:
ReplyDeleteIt defies rational belief to think the terrorists didn't know their communications were being monitored, and it is absurd to argue they would care that that is taking place sans warrants, in violation of American law.
Moreover, there are tens of thousands of people with the technical background to understand the scope and general methodology used in this massive surveillance program. The NYT article revealed nothing that would have been surprising to the bad guys. The administration was really worried about the US public becoming aware of the program, not about the terrists.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"Take a look at this case: United States of America v. Samuel Loring Morison."
And just exactly what classified photographs did the NYT pass to anyone that wasn't supposed to receive them? Because that is what that case deals with.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDeleteWhat law is that?
I am surprised, counselor, that you're not aware of the...
1917 ESPIONAGE ACT
§798. Disclosure of Classified Information.
So according to that, you can get ten years of prison and/or a $10,000 fine for giving away classified information on the subjects of 1) government codes, 2) spying technology hardware, 3) the methods, organizational charts, etc. of the CIA and similar groups, and 4) information gained by the government through any of the above.
None of which, in any way, describes the Abu Ghraib photos. Divulging the warrantless wiretapping might fall under (3), but if you interpret it that broadly, so would publically stating that we're spying on Iran. I mean, I'm sure a lot about it must be classified, right? And it's something about the intelligence activities of our government, right? So if talking so vaguely about Americans being spied on is criminal, then writing the second sentence of this paragraph must have been a criminal act.
And this is the principal if not the only law regarding the leaks. And you think this actually helps your case.
(sound of crickets chirping)
Hume's Ghost: That Shapiro article is horrific. I had thought your use of the phrase "proto-fascist" was likely hyperbolic, but it is not, not applied to anyone who writes this: At some point, Republicans in Congress must stop delicately tiptoeing with regard to sedition and must pass legislation to prosecute such sedition.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is Democrats he lists and whom he wants prosecuted, and not one of the examples he cites constitutes anything but opinion that is either fair game, accurate, or both. And I'm not a Democrat.
And just exactly what classified photographs did the NYT pass to anyone that wasn't supposed to receive them? Because that is what that case deals with.
ReplyDeleteI'd suggest you read Schoenfeld's piece that I linked to above. He goes into great detail about that case and why it may prove significant if the NY Times is indicted under the act.
“If journalists can go to prison for receiving or publishing classified information, we don't have a free press...”
ReplyDeleteYawn. Yes, Mr. Greenwald, and we cannot even yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater, either. Let me see if I have you correctly:
The POTUS is a vile thing for deciding to violate a law passed by Congress because he thinks he needs to in order to protect America from another attack. OK. Rule of law, don’t break the law, etc. On the other hand, if some absolutely predicable whacko decides to leak to his journalist friend where the button is to blow up America, we want the press to be totally free of any concern about printing that information. Oh yeah, I left out that “the button” could only be figured out by the foreign enemy from the information leaked by the whackos who thought they were only leaking a story about government stream pollution resulting from erecting a building (to contain a button) in a wetland. Yeah, we can trust the press to know what to print and what to leave out, even though they do not have full and accurate information about the leaked information. What are you thinking, Mr. Greennwald? Implementing your contention will surely get us all killed. I like a free press, but not that much.
Frankly, I don't follow this argument. It seems to me that urging publication of the cartoons, which are old news, stale, all over the Internet, and already on TV, serves no purpose but to create more unrest and pave the way for the Iran invasion.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, whereas it is clear that the NY Times and other newspapers or journalists who publish information that is leaked to them from whistleblowers should not be prosecuted.
However, if Larry Franklin leaks classified info to the AIPEC crowd, who are NOT journalists, but a lobbying group, why shouldn't both Franklin and AIPEC be guilty of treason? They should be, in my opinion.
Finally, while the government should keep its nose out of what is or isn't published, of course private local media should have the right to publish or not publish whatever they think is in their best interests to do so, to censor themselves if they damn well please, without fear of reprisal or criticism from anyone.
So unless I am misreading something, I would say two of the arguments Glenn makes are correct, and two are incorrect.
It is extremely annoying to me to hear some urgings others to print these cartoons. That is not our controversy here, and many have already published those, so whoever wants to see them, can do so. That's hardly supressive.
But if I as a private citizen get harmed because riots start here because some idiot newspaper has been egged on by Michelle Malkin, a war instigator and flunkie for the neocon crowd, to publish the cartoons, I would hold that newspaper morally responsible for my injuries.
Finally, since when are spys and the groups who contract with them to steal government secrets to pass to those groups not traitors, deserving of punishment for betraying this country? In my book, there's a whole lot of difference between a whistleblower who alerts the press to government wrongdoing, and a spy.
I find myself more and more often these days reading the news with jaw dropping, eye-blinking disbelief. These people are so far off the scale of anything remotely resembling rational thought it's hard to believe it's real.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that matters is getting these guys out of power as soon as possible.
Oilfieldguy said...
ReplyDelete"I find it curious that conservatives are urging publication of the inflammatory muslim cartoons. Could it be to foment local muslim strife, thereby bolstering the administrations claim for the importance of warrantless eavesdropping?"
It not only "could" be, it is.
There was another important story on the AIPAC case and the proposed use of the Espionage Act against the press by Walter Pincus in the Washington Post yesterday: Press Can Be Prosecuted for Having Secret Files, U.S. Says.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Secrecy News has been covering related issues here, here, and here.
… “they want the ideas they like to be disseminated widely and aggressively but ideas which they dislike to be suppressed.”
ReplyDeletePerhaps Glenn will deal with this in a forthcoming post, but aside from this direct attack on the press he cites here is, I believe, an attack equally as dangerous although far more insidious: marginalizing the press.
I think that this marginalizing exists of two components: 1) the intimidation of all mainstream media to compel them to adopt Bush talking points and framing for fear of being described as “liberal” which, in these heady days has become a synonym of “traitor” and 2) the development of authoritarian media outlets which promote the “party” line (and cult propaganda) and will eventually render the traditional media irrelevant and unnecessary until it becomes……yes, criminalized (as Glenn observes today).
Barbara O’brien had a post on this very subject which quoted Knight Ridder:
To many on the outside, it looked like a mistake when Vice President Dick Cheney failed to notify the White House press corps first of his shooting accident. But in the White House, it reflected a strategy of marginalizing the press.
More than ever, the Bush White House ignores traditional news media and presents its message through friendly alternatives, such as talk-show hosts Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. And when a reporter appears belligerent in a televised confrontation with the White House spokesman, as NBC’s David Gregory did this week, the imagery helps the administration turn the story into one about the press, which energizes a Republican base that hates the media anyway……… more than any of its predecessors, Bush’s team has learned to deal with the media on the White House’s terms.
Although it frightens me to finish this sentence, it is time to acknowledge that most Bush appearances seem to have been choreographed by George Orwell, and perhaps Rove takes pride in that. But it’s almost reached the point where the president is no longer accountable to anyone but his loyalists – and that now includes the press.
To make that point loud and clear, O’brien quotes Bush “toady” Thomas Sowell, “There is nothing in the Constitution or the laws that says that the media have a right to be in the White House at all, much less to have press conferences.”
Above all, the corporate media is concerned about money. And the authoritarians are now playing for keeps, just like on K street – if a network wants to have anyone with any power and influence in the administration on its shows, they must play by Rove’s rules. And it’s working. At some point, only “friendly” journalists will have access, and access is money.
O’brien concludes her post with this thought, “Some days I think that it’s going to take a miracle for this nation to survive the Bush Administration with democracy intact.”
This is one of those days for me.
~ Zack
notherbob is a nothercoward
ReplyDelete"What purpose did the 32 days of front page articles about Abu Ghraib do that the 1st 2 days of front page coverage wouldn’t have?"
ReplyDeleteWell, there was a very big purpose. It was
"a means to disgrace the Bush Administration."
When you do disgraceful things, prepare to have those things condemned. If I had a newspaper, I would have had the Abu Ghraib pictures on the front page every day for a year. That's how disgraceful I think the abuse, torture and degradation of those prisoners was, and how depraved, subhuman, and evil I think those who committed the abuse were.
The flunkies got a slap on the wrist. The engineers of that institutionalized policy of torture got off scot free. Proper punishment was then to expose what they did.
There are various ways to punish disgraceful actions, and one of the best is to show them the light of day.
Contrast this with the cartoons. Nothing disgraceful was done there. The "news" was that their publication precipitated riots. If there was "news", it was the riots, and nothing is gained by the publication ad nauseum of those cartoons.
Gedaylia ... sits in front of the television watching scary pictures of Arabs and wants George Bush to protect him from them, because he's frightened.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with this. Gedaylia's in power and is benefiting in some way from the current Administration. Like all of the other toadies in the media; Rush, Hannity, Coulter, ... he's willing to say or do whatever it takes to make sure his gravy train doesn't run out.
Politically lost:
ReplyDeleteAre you new to this site? You write "I guess I'm just easily flabergasted by those without shame enough to not feel the pinch of hypocricy when they advocate such positions."
Gedaliya and pmain don't have "positions", so relax.
They both work for the Bush administration, and are hired to put forth the party line on sites such as this. Most scroll by their posts, unless looking for a laugh.
Don't worry, nobody really thinks that way except those in power, who stand to benefit from having their crimes covered up lest they be dragged off in shackles, which is how it all might end.
"Are you now saying that I am in fear of his "phallic greatness" or simply in fear of Arabs?"
ReplyDeleteNeither Gedaliya. There was a time when people on this site thought you were a person expressing your views. Turns out you work for Bush.
So we know nothing about your "views", only that you are willing to prostitute yourself for a paycheck.
"As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely wrong. The press should have the right to do so, if they want to, but there's no reason that the press "ought" to publish the cartoons.
Put them on this site, Glenn, if you feel they should be published.
They were "published" all over the Internet from day one. That's enough.
It's stupid to take a nonproductive position for no reason other than to take a position.
Couldn't disagree more that they "ought" to be published in this country. Other countries took the lead, shed the blood, and that's enough.
Don't be masochistic.
Great post, and great excerpt, gris lobo.
Absolutely wrong. The press should have the right to do so, if they want to, but there's no reason that the press "ought" to publish the cartoons.
ReplyDeleteThe press ought to publish those cartoons for the same reason they ought to be vigorously editorializing against the Bush Administation's attacks on journalists. With the freedoms that are given to the press come the responsibility to defend those freedoms when they are under attack.
There are lots of journalists who have been intimidated into suppressing those cartoons, just as there are lots of journalists who have been intimidated into speaking out against the Administration's attacks on journalists. The antidote to all thuggish efforts to suppress the expression of ideas is to express those ideas as widely as possible, precisely in order to take a stand for the right to do so.
MORRISSEY QUIZZED BY FBI
ReplyDeleteAlso see:
MORRISSEY
FBI
GEORGE W BUSH
Singer MORRISSEY was quizzed by the FBI and British intelligence after speaking out against the American and British governments.
The Brit is a famous critic of the US-led war in Iraq and has dubbed President GEORGE W BUSH a "terrorist" - but he was baffled to be hauled in by authorities.
Morrissey explains, "The FBI and the Special Branch have investigated me and I've been interviewed and taped and so forth....
"My view is that neither England or America are democratic societies. You can't really speak your mind and if you do you're investigated."
Tony Blair is as shameless as Bush. Now he's claiming that it was Al Queda that bombed the Golden Dome.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and the grinch stole my Christmas.
The funny thing is that by continuing this method of attack, the left is actually weakening their chances of re-gaining any semblance of political power again.
ReplyDeleteOkay, how many "lefties" here think it's a good idea to rely on this right-wing guy for advice on political strategy?
Yeah, me neither.
On a tangent, the "attacking the U.A.E. is xenophobic" crowd might want to check out Digby's latest.
ReplyDeleteGlenn wrote -
ReplyDeleteAnd how were "our enemies" helped by this disclosure? Did they not previously know we were eavesdropping on them?
Well, you know - sometimes they forget. Just like Abu Gonzales told us.
John Yoo speaking at Heritage Foundation on C-Span 2 now, at 4 PM EST.
ReplyDelete"notherbob is a nothercoward"
ReplyDeleteAnon, how is this crusade going to get off the ground if you cannot even remember the terminology? It's "bed-wetter". Jeez.
John Yoo disputes Richard Epstein's view that Congress has the right to make policy in wartime.
ReplyDeleteHe says the Declare War Clause should be read in isolation. It doesn't include the concepts of engaging, begining or commencing a war.
He claims Constitution only says the States cannot engage in war unless there is imminent danger, or we are invaded.
That doesn't apply to the President who is not bound by those restrictions.
Is he right?
The gravity well in the Bush cult is pretty powerful, even in the face of how hard his policies suck, his lackeys can't escape his draw.
ReplyDeleteThey remind me of OJ and Michael Jackson fans, with Jesus juice and blood here and there, the fanatical zeal wouldn't be quenched. The team mentality is everywhere, and it is good to belong to it. But never abdicate your right to think for yourself and become a feckless, unpricipled apologist who completely surrenders privacy and autonomy, ever.
The cartoon riots are quite frightening and regrettable, but they are a negligible threat to the freedom of the American press.
ReplyDeleteI utterly disagree with that in the strongest terms possible. Only the willfully blind will fail to understand that almost no American newspaper or television station published those cartoons, and that this was so for one simple, irreducible reason: fear.
But if all of them had announced they were going to do so, well, the Islamic thugs they fear are not going to blow up all of them. In the U.S., maybe there would be no violence. But the mere fact that European and American media outlets are self-censoring is indicative of an actual and serious problem with Muslim extremists. In my view, someone who takes both of the positions Glenn does -- namely, opposition to both self-censorship vis-a-vis the cartoons, and to govt intimidation of the press wrt the NSA mattter -- has the strongest credibility as an adovcate of a free press, stronger than any who hold only to one position or the other.
gedaliya said...
ReplyDelete"I'd suggest you read Schoenfeld's piece that I linked to above. He goes into great detail about that case and why it may prove significant if the NY Times is indicted under the act."
Ok I read it. Sorry bit I wasn't impressed. Every case he sited had to do with means and methods.
Just as with the Chicago Tribune article that was published after the battle at Midway, The Tribune not only said the Navy knew the strength and dispositon of the Japanese fleet but went into great detail to describe it including the names of Japanese ships that were present. That could only lead the Japanese to the conclusion that their code had been broken.
Divulging that a code has been broken might indeed fall under the 1917 espionage act
However publishing an article that states that open and clear cell phone calls can be intercepted doesn't meet that standard IMO since it comes under the heading of common knowledge.
If the calls had been scrambled and it was revealed by the NYT that the NSA was intercepting them and knew what they were saying, depending on the specifics I might concede the argument to you.
As for the argument that if the Times had passed it to Al Qaida on a microdot that it would have been prosecuted under the act; it falls under the same false logic. It is common knowledge that open in the clear cell phone calls can be intercepted just as can any other signal that is broadcast.
Ever listen to a police scanner? So sorry but I still disagree with you.
But do keep coming back. Even though I disagree with you I do enjoy debating you. You do keep the debate interesting.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0111-01.htm
ReplyDeleteEveryone should really read this article about the Bush family dynasty and their cozy ties with the Mid East.
It's an eye opener, and has information I bet none of you know yet.
BTW, John Yoo is concluding that Congress's ONLY role in warfare is the power of the purse. Unless they restrict funds, the President has unlimited power to do anything and everything he wants.
Glenn Greenwald wrote: "As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack."
ReplyDeleteI don't believe these cartoons should be published and I don't see how publishing them strengthens the freedom of the press. As you point out and your silliest poster demonstrates, the threat to the press is indigenous. The cartoon riots are quite frightening and regrettable, but they are a negligible threat to the freedom of the American press.
I couldn't disagree more.
The problem is that the American (or any other) press should not be beholden to the agenda of another group. The cartoon story has international consequences, and it only informs the populace to print the cartoons, so the public can make up their mind.
It's a completely different situation than the initial publication. Maybe it wasn't the smartest idea to publish the cartoons in the first place. But to have it cause an international incident, then still refuse to provide the proper context is nothing less than abdicating journalistic responsibility.
A right not exercised is a right quickly lost.
"A right not exercised is a right quickly lost."
ReplyDeleteThis is hogwash. The only thing that leads to lost rights is government action, not elective failure to exercise them.
Gedaliya, Our Vice President thought nothing of breaking the law by directing the leaking of classified information - Valerie Plame's identity. The fact that he gave himself legal cover for doing so by issuing an Executive Order to declassify at will does not make him any less guilty. This administration cares nothing for the truth or morality. Those quaint notions, like the thousands of lives destroyed in Iraq, were among the casualties of the Bush regime.
ReplyDeleteBut do keep coming back. Even though I disagree with you I do enjoy debating you. You do keep the debate interesting.
ReplyDeleteThanks...it isn't often I get a kind word in these parts. I do very much appreciate it.
Morrissey was probably questioned for the fraud of claiming to be a musician.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the analysis that by denouncing self censorship one tends to hold the high moral ground. (Hypatia)
ReplyDeleteI use different language at a longshoremans bar than I do inside a daycare. This is self censorship. In fact if the language in the former were used in the latter it would be considered in poor taste.
As far as publishing the cartoons go, it would actually be republishing them. And the first name in news is new. Further, Muslims do not consider this just bad taste, but blasphemous. And the newshole being finite it would be much better used by speaking truth to power and disclosing yet another scandal this administration is trying to censor.
"Those on the Right arguing against the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos sound exactly like those on the Left arguing against publication of these cartoons"
ReplyDeleteNo Glenn, this doesn't wash. There were so many newspapers who WANTED to, and did, publish the Abu Ghraib pictures because their consciences were shocked, and nothing was more important to them than exposing what was happening.
If other newspapers don't care enough about the cartoon issue, feeling that it has been adequately covered, that makes perfect sense. Nobody is saying they CANNOT publish them. But you are saying they OUGHT to publish them.
Nobody told the newspapers they OUGHT to publish the Abu Ghraib pictures. Nobody had to tell them.
Your saying newspapers OUGHT to publish the cartoon pictures, to further an agenda of yours, even if it's a worthwhile agenda, free press, is very authoritarian.
If there's an elective free market in free press, that's okay. As long as it's elective, there's nothing wrong with that.
Just as the best way to fight Superman is to slap him across the face with a big chunk of Kryptonite, the best way to fight the Bush worshipers is to slap them across the face with the Bill of Rights. They can't handle it, and drop faster than a 78-year-old buckshotted lawyer.
ReplyDeleteThere is no free press, the Bush administration normally pays them.
ReplyDeleteoilfieldguy writes: I disagree with the analysis that by denouncing self censorship one tends to hold the high moral ground. (Hypatia)
ReplyDeleteI use different language at a longshoremans bar than I do inside a daycare. This is self censorship. In fact if the language in the former were used in the latter it would be considered in poor taste.
Inapposite analogy.
Bars and daycare centers are not purveyors of any of: the news, political satire, or editorial/political cartoons. Newspapers simply are.
And when they refrain from publishing satirical or political cartoons (and most were one or the other or both)that have caused rioting all over the world, they are caving in to fear. This suggests they tailor their coverage to avoid the anger of Islamic thugs, which was the claim that caused the initial publications, a test of whether it was true that Danish cartoonists feared Muslims.
Whatever that is, it is not the behavior of a free press, and pushback is in order, beginning with publishing cartoons that manifestly are totally topical, and largely political. If there is any single over-riding problem in the American media -- whether Fox, CNN or any other news station -- it is that news is sanitized, as a result of many forces, but with the result that much we are fed is pabulum fit only for intellectual infants.
Salman Rushdie warned, and himself constitued a warning, that free speech in the West was on the line if the West did not confront the fatwa on his head and the murders of several of his publishers and translators. He was so right, as Theo van Gogh would learn, and this lesson has not yet sunk in for too many. Including a cravenly fearful Western media.
"I'll bet if we did a little investigative work an ugly network of corporate relationships would emerge"
ReplyDeleteIts been done.
And if the crony capitalists get there way, local media will go the way of the dodo.
From here
Companies are barred from owning a newspaper and a television or a radio station in the same market. Additionally, companies are restricted to owning a limited number of radio stations in a market depending on its size.
The FCC has been unable to launch its review of restrictions on the radio and television industry because of a two-two split among the four commissioners. The fifth commissioner slot has been vacant for almost a year.
President George W. Bush has nominated Robert McDowell, a telecommunications lawyer, to fill the third Republican seat on the five-member FCC and is expected to break the deadlock over media ownership if he is confirmed by the U.S. Senate.
The FCC in 2003 voted to ease a ban on a company owning a newspaper and a television or radio station in a market. An appeals court agreed with that decision, but put it on hold because the FCC failed to sufficiently justify the new rule.
Regulations also restrict a company from owning more than 8 radio stations in markets with at least 45 stations. In markets with 30 to 44 stations, an operator can own up to 7 stations. And in smaller markets with 15 to 29 stations, a company can own up to 6 stations, and up to 5 stations in markets with less than 14.
The event was sponsored by leading media companies, including some that have sought regulatory relief, including radio operator Clear Channel Communications Inc., and Tribune Co., which owns newspapers and broadcast outlets.
The FCC's Martin, a Republican, tried to launch a review of ownership rules last year but failed to reach an agreement with the two Democrats on the panel. Martin has backed eliminating the cross-ownership ban.
Separately, Upton said he expected his subcommittee to consider a bill to overhaul U.S. telecommunications laws next month and he was aiming to complete the full committee review before the Easter holiday in April.
The cartoons are news.
ReplyDeleteThat is the only standard that should be applied.
Gedaliya cites Gabriel Schoenfeld's Commentary article as something worth reading WRT whether newspapers should publish whistleblowing articles on secret programs...
ReplyDeleteHow is Schoenfeld wrong? Let me count the ways....
He cites several cases of prior disclosures of classified information. Included is the Pentagon Papers case, which, as he should know, involved Ellsberg who was a government employee (and for whom the rules are different), but ignores the New York Times, which actually won their case in front of the Supreme
Court. The N.Y. Times v. U.S. case is really more on point than the supposedly botched prosecution of Ellsberg. Yet Schoenfeld ignores it except for this:
The administration also petitioned the Supreme Court to stop the New York Times from publishing Ellsberg's leaked documents, in order to prevent "grave and irreparable danger" to the public interest; but it did not even mention the Espionage Act in this connection, presumably because that statute does not allow for the kind of injunctive relief it was seeking.
Maybe if Schoenfeld was honest, he'd admit that the gummint would have used the Espionage Act were it applicable, and thus that ithey didn't is telling ... and that if they thought that the relief sought (the injunction) was the only real problem here, they could have initiated a prosecution against the Times post publication.
Then Schoenfeld goes into the AIPAC case, which involves first a prosecution against Franklin, who was a government employee at the time. That his partners in crime. while not government employees, should also be charged should not be much of a surprise; it was a conspiracy.
Schoenfeld then comes out with this complete blarney:
The AIPAC case presents another twist. In crucial respects, the status of the two defendants does resemble that of journalists. Unlike Morison but like James Risen of the New York Times, the AIPAC men were not government employees. They were also involved in a professional activity -- attempting to influence the government by means of lobbying -- that under normal circumstances enjoys every bit as much constitutional privilege as publishing a newspaper. Like freedom of the press, indeed, the right to petition the government is explicitly stipulated in the First Amendment."
*sheesh* Where to begin... Lobbying is a constitutionally protected profession???? Sounds like something a RWer would think, but I hardly think that this is something the founders intended ... in fact, asked the question, they probably would have been appalled by the notion. But that ignores the more fundamental issue that they could have been priests, pressmen, or privateers profesionally; this doesn't matter when the activity they're engaging in has nothing to do with exercising any of the rights under the First Amendment. Petitioning the gummint for redress doesn't require taking possession of secret information, and their profession is not hindered by such. Reporters, OTOH, have been afforded some particular deference (but not absolute) WRT the performance of their job by exempting them from having to reveal sources ... for the very reason that undisclosed sources help the press do its constitutionally protected job. I'd venture to say that the press's role in keeping gummint accountable and providing the free flow of information vital to a democray is another reason to cut the press some slack.
More later, gotta do some work.
Cheers,
Perhaps if someone would have leaked classified information on how intel was being fixed around an Iraqi invasion, Iraq would not now be embroiled in a civil war, we would be richer by the billions and our soldiers wouldn't have been spent based on shake and bake intel.
ReplyDeleteSomeone did. Seymour Hersh reported on the forged evidence that was used to support the notion that Iraq was attempting to build nuclear weapons a good six weeks before the invasion. Much good it did all of us. (And no surprise, either, considering the inevitable climate that preceeds a military action in this or any country- I highly recommend Chris Hedges' War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning for a thoughtful examination of the collective psychosis that the onset of war brings on.)
And if you're not pissed off enough about this issue, The Psychotic Patriot blogs the incredibly stupid and heartlessly timed removal of a mother's memorial to her fallen son. Please pass this around, and if you blog, please post about this travesty.
ReplyDeleteJames
"I utterly disagree with that in the strongest terms possible. Only the willfully blind will fail to understand that almost no American newspaper or television station published those cartoons, and that this was so for one simple, irreducible reason: fear."
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that your indignation has led you to make a statement that you would not wish to defend. I doubt that fear and fear primarily prevented the republication of the cartoons. Could there have been a decent respect for deeply held religious beliefs? Could there have been a responsible decision to not further inflame rioting (even half a world away) by printing the cartoons when describing them was enough to report the story? Could a newspaper decide that their inherent worth as political cartoons was too negligible? These were not the equivalent of The Satanic Verses in artistic value or moral purpose. So are you really, really sure that fear ruled?
There are four real threats to the free press. This government which invents a radical argument in the AIPAC case which may criminalize the receipt of information inconvenient to the government. The Bush supporters who are stupid enough to refer to Morison to support the argument that the Espionage Act applies to recipients of leaks (can we agree to congratulate a nameless poster on an "own goal"?); the bedwetters who will trade the Bill of Rights for a phantasm of security. The consolidation of industry and information: GE-MS-NBC,
Clear Channel, etc. And finally, the dumbing down of real news (missing white woman) and the unleashing of the tools of advertising to the service of politics.
It is certainly not possible to have all US newspapers simultaneously publish these cartoons, and I don't see how this would be a useful show of strength. Has there been a rash of newspaper bombings across Europe? Now if all the media would band together to defend themselves from the four credible threats and I had a pony....
You know after reading Gedaliya's posts I've finally figured out that he is communicating from somekind of parallel reality where up is down, black is white, so on and so on.
ReplyDeleteThis guy is as big a Bush apologist/rationalist and as full of excrement as Scott McClellan or Ari Fleischer.
While I agree w/ several points raised about the corporate influence on our media. The truth is that the information should never have been released because it places the safety of the National & our troops in harm. The same argument could be made about the Danish cartoons, but it wasn’t all of the cartoons or even the real ones that have set in motion the riots & the Muslim response… so I am not convinced.
ReplyDeleteIf the NSA story was so important, then why didn’t the members of Congress, from both sides of the aisle, utilize the tools in place that allow them to leak it in the first place? Nope, they did & said nothing. Someone from the intelligence community ran to the NYT because they knew that they would print it & that it might possibly hurt the Bush Administration. What did the NYT do, they sat on the story & waited. Remember that they had known about the NSA wiretaps for over a year before printing the story. I'm sorry you all don’t like the Bush Administration, but isn’t in a valid question to ask why did they wait so long? What was the reason for the release? The 2nd point is if it was such an abuse of power why didn’t the Democrats release the information then & there using the whistle blower tools as defined by Federal Law? No answer to that either.
If the Bush Administration can show that the release of the information did indeed harm our National Security, then those that published it should be prosecuted in a court of law & they should release their sources who leaked the classified information. Notice that I am advocating following the laws, not subverting them. Notice that I am not pronouncing guilt or assuming it. While you all may find it alright to demand impeachment, while knowing close to nothing about the programs themselves, I find it premature & purely partisan to make such requests. If the Administration is guilty then it should be pursued, but Congress so far hasn't gone that route as is their privy. How is it any less a perversion of the Constitution to pronounce a guilty verdict before they have even been tried?
Call me a troll or a “cultist” but there hasn’t been any proof released that shows that they are guilty yet. Congress won’t pursue it or hasn’t so far, no court has taken up the case, so most of this discussion is pure political conjecture & nothing more.
I'm no lawyer (had the opportunity to go to law school for the last two years but couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger), but couldn't an argument be made that the 1917 Espionage Act is void for vagueness?
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that under the elements of the law, not only would the New York Times quite likely be found guilty (absent some degree of jury nullification) but, as Glenn and others have pointed out, so could anyone READING the New York Times. Under the strict parameters of this law, a given Department of Justice could easily arbitrarily decide to prosecute any thousands of people for this violation. For instance, the Bush Department of Justice could simply prosecute a large group of likely liberals and establish that they had received the information (which wouldn't be difficult through the testimony of those to whom they had discussed the article, who would then probably have to take the 5th amendment because the witness himself would have then received the information.)
As apocalyptic and absurd as this scenario (from which I will mercifully digress) seems, I really don't see anything in the text of that law that would preclude it. As far as I understand it, if a law is so vague as to render the government capable of prosecuting almost anyone in an arbitrary fashion, it cannot pass constitutional muster.
Glenn could probably shed some light on my likely mistaken thinking here. The contention that I would infer from his masterful post on this subject is not so much that he claimed that the New York Times didn't violate the law, but that the law itself should never be enforced as written, lest we essentially surrender all of the meaningful protections of the First Amendment. Simply put, this scenario could not have been the authentic legislative intent of its authors, and I'd be hard pressed to imagine a court of any repute arguing otherwise.
I am not suggesting that the 1917 Espionage Act be struck down with no comparable legislation written to replace it. I only submit that if the New York Times (and its readership!) can be successfully prosecuted under it, then the law must be redrafted to more specifically target the genuine practitioners of espionage.
Now I totally agree with Hypatia that U.S. media has a right to publish whatever it wants to. I make no exceptions.
ReplyDeleteBut when she make no exceptions, she almost seems to be saying that the media has a duty and obligation to publish offending statements. And the more offensive, the better.
I think there is a difference between having a right to do something, and doing it. She says the only reason the media doesn’t publish some of those cartoons is fear.
While I agree that fear may be a factor in this example, let me pose another:
If, for example, the Chicago Tribune doesn’t refer to Barack Obama as the “nigger Senator of Illinois” is that out of fear?
Now the Spotlight or other racist publications are free to refer to him that way, and I support their right to do that completely. But that doesn’t mean the Tribune should refer to him that way.
I don’t think they should be condemned if they don’t use the word “nigger” to refer to him. Does that mean I support self-censorship?
Does that make me an opponent of the First Amendment?
Should I be condemned for that view? I’m supporting self-censorship on the part of the Chicago Tribune – am I an enemy of American values?
Hyapatia said:
ReplyDeleteAnd when they refrain from publishing satirical or political cartoons (and most were one or the other or both)that have caused rioting all over the world, they are caving in to fear.
Leaving aside my analogy of bar v. daycare lingo... I am intrigued by the notion the default position for non-publishing of the Danish cartoons by the American press is fear. And it is fear that causes this self censorship. Could it not be respect of Muslim beliefs as opposed to cowing to Islamic thugs.
And I do not see the advantage to republishing them.
Hmm...my follow up post didn't appear for some reason, so I'll try again.
ReplyDeleteI realized soon after submitting my comment that the legal term I was actually talking about was probably overbreadth, not void for vagueness.
This law could not be enforced without impinging the clearly enunciated rights granted in the First Amendment.
For strange reasons that I can't quite wrap my head around, the law intuitively strikes me as both void for vagueness and overbroad, even though I realize that they are often (if not always) opposing concepts.
arne langsetmo writes:
ReplyDeleteLobbying is a constitutionally protected profession???? Sounds like something a RWer would think, but I hardly think that this is something the founders intended
Let's see, Amendment I to the Constitution of the United States:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
So Congress (and the states via Amendment XIV) can make no law preventing the people from petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. Sounds like the lobbying profession is about as sacrosanct as any profession in the United States, I'd say.
oilfieldguy,
ReplyDeleteI think that is a valid point, but in the case of the NYT, they have published several pictures that are very offensive to Christians. Why pick one religion over the other, unless it is fear of violent reprisal. If I was an editor, I probably would have published the cartoons, but if I had kids, I'd definately consider not publishing them. I agree w/ most of the commentors here, they should be allowed to publish whatever they'd like as long as it doesn't endanger our troops in the field or hurt National Security: troops movements, codes, etc.
Yes turing test, I am absolute sure it is fear. A few days ago here, I linked to a Boston Globe columnist who was commending one of that city's alternatives for frankly saying why it would not publish the cartoons: fear of the consequences. (I can't recall which columnist it was, but he was also sure this was the real reason for most of the forbearance, notwithstanding all the pious invocations of "sensitivity.")
ReplyDeleteThen there is Nina Burleigh over at HuffPo:
The angry letter-writer correctly called the [NY] Times editors on their double standard: Okay to run images that offend Christians who might protest and boycott, but not okay to run images that offend death-cult Islamists who might drive a truck bomb into the Times building.
Her logic is pretty dammed tight. It is fear.
To coin a phrase, "when dissenting is outlawed, only outlaws will dissent." That is the direction this administration is taking this country and a loyalist like Gedaliya is just peachy with that. Your argument, Gedaliya, is circular, because you would prefer the program have remained secret, arguing that it hasn't been deemed illegal. But until the NSA program sees a court challenge, it can't technically be declared illegal. And it won't see a court challenge until people other than the insiders who created it can examine it. But since it hasn't been deemed illegal, those who helped expose it, to your way of thinking, are criminals. You conveniently ignore the reams that have been written by legal experts who opine that it likely is illegal, choosing instead to put blind faith in the quaint notion that your leaders wouldn't do anything illegal.
ReplyDeleteWow. Considering the precedent this could set, and considering that power ALWAYS swings back and forth between parties, are you going to be as confident of the innate goodness of your government when these precedents are utilized by Democrats? Or is dissent only wrong when it comes from the Left?
Hypatia:it is that news is sanitized, as a result of many forces, but with the result that much we are fed is pabulum fit only for intellectual infants.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with this statement. Which is why I so enjoy this forum.
The linkage between publishing the Abu Ghraib photos and publishing the Danish cartoons is a weak one but in our favor.
The first argument that the right had was against publishing the pictures of prisoner abuses claiming that it would inflame the Muslims and put Americans at risk.
Unfortunately, the pictures were actual photographs of the commander in chiefs policies being carried out. He wanted torture. His Vice President lobbied for torture. The war was based on intelligence derived from torture. Some soldiers looked proud in those pictures to be carrying out the policies of the administration.
Of course the photos should be published. It's not the pictures that give offense but the actions they captured. Americans humiliating detainees under the direction of the President according to the torture memo put forth by Gonzales. These war crimes go to the top.
Now the cartoons are the ones the right does want the press to display. It is considered blasphemous to depict Mohammed in any form, and since the Danish cartoons were published riots have broken out. To not publish these cartoons the media is accused of being big ol wussies which really defies logic. Caving to Bennet would make them a wussie.
Pictures of soldiers carrying out the orders of their commander in chief or cartoons. One thing about the rightwingnuts, we know what they would like published.
Commenting further on the Schoenfeld tripe:
ReplyDeleteSchoenfeld seems to think that what the N.Y. Times did was a serious harm to U.S. interests. This, of course, assumes that the reasons for this program being "secret" was that its existence was of some use to potential terrorists ... and not simply to keep the U.S. population in the dark. If anything labelled "secret" can't be investigated, uncovered, discussed, etc., then there's simply no accountablity in a maladministration that can label whatever it wants "secret" without review or appeal (and this maladministration seems to be exceptionally "secretive" for some reason). And people can't appeal stuff they don't even know about. At this point, it's in the public interest (even if not per se legal) to disclose certain dubious gummint projects ... so they can be talked about (this was basically what happened in the Pentagon Papers case). Let's say, just for argument, that the U.S. gummint wants to do an illegal act, and then to avoid being held responsible by making any knowledge of this "secret". Then unmasking what is classified as "secret", but which is just plain illegal and/or embarrassing, is a public good, and the "secret" label should be challenged rather than the disclosure. And this is arguably true of the NSA program (RW hallucinations that al Qaeda cares whether the maladministration needs warrants to tap their phones notwithstanding).
FWIW, the notion of injury to the national interest (intended and actual) is important in the laws under consideration. Intent to injure is necessary under some provisions, and it's a bit hard to show intent if there is no actual damage.
But I'd be curios to know what Schoenfeld (and Gedaliya) think of the Plame case. Should the government officials (i.e., Rove, Libby, and Cheney) be hauled up under the Espionage Act for their part in revealing the covert status of Valerie Plame? You'd think so, wouldn't you? But so far I see absolute silence from both Schoenfeld and Gedaliya on this.
Schoenfeld pretends that the only defence of the N.Y. Times is that the disclosure was of an improperly classified bit of information and that the disclosure was in the public interest in disclosing an illegal act (his p. 6). The specific statute he talks about prior to this requires that the disclosure be "prejudicial to the safety and interest of the Unites States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States". And that's a matter of fact which has not been resolved.
Ignoring this, Schoenfeld then posits that the Times would try to manufacture another defence: That they were working in the public interest in disclosing an illegal gummint operation. He dismisses this "straw man" defence of his: "But this argument, too, is unlikely to gain much traction in courts. As we have already seen, congressional leaders of both parties have been briefed regularly about the program. Whether or not legal objections to the NSA surveillance ever arose in those briefings, the mere fact that COngress has been kept informed shows that, whatever legitimate objections there might be to such a program, this is not a case, like Watergate, of the executive branch running amok." Sheer nonsense, of course. A small subset of Congress, by silent "assent" (when if fact they were barred from even making an issue of it publicly, and some in fact did protest -- even on the meagre information they were given) can hardly transform an illegal activity into a legal one.
* * * * *
I do find this paragraph from Schoenfeld somewhat amusing (simply for what is unsaid): [concerning the N.Y. Times views on the maladministration's "War on Terror"]: "If it [the N.Y. Times] has not inveighed directly against the war on terrorism, its editorial page has opposed almost every measure taken by the Bush administrationm in waging that war, from the Patriot Act to military tribunals for terrorist suspects to the CIA renditions of al-Qaeda operatives to the effort to depose Saddam Hussein." (emphasis added). Hate to say it, but if that was "every" measure that the Dubya maladmininstration took, they sure picked the wrong methods!!! (Of course, Schoenfeld is wrong on his facts: The N.Y. Times was hardly against the invasion of Iraq (at least until afterward) ... and that is a dark blot on their record). But if that's the "record" of prosecuting the war on terror that Dubya wants to put forward as his signal accomplishment, I can only encourage him....
Cheers,
Oh, yeah, Schoenfeld trots out the ol' pile'o'crap defence of Libby that Plame had "ostensible undercover status". Unfortunately for him, various sources have reported that Plame was indeed undercover and also overseas as such.
ReplyDeleteHe seems to want to equate this leak with the N.Y. Times reporting on the NSA program. But Scooter Libby and Karl Rove are hardly newspapermen trying to inform the public (and outing Plame is hardly in the "public interest"), but rather high maladministration officials. And even if they didn't violate the letter of any laws, their a$$es ought to be canned in a millisecond and they should be shunned by the Republican party, instead of having the Republican party holding fundraising efforst for their defence....
Cheers,
Yes turing test, I am absolute sure it is fear.
ReplyDeleteHypatia, I accept that you believe it was fear, but your post does not prove to me that fear was the deciding principle for even one major newspaper.
You quote a Boston Globe columnist discussing the decision of an alternative weekly. If you could provide a reference to a statement by the publisher or managing editor of the Globe saying that the Globe was afraid to publish the cartoons, I would accept your proof that one major newspaper made their decision from fear.
You refer to a blogger's discussion of a letter writer to the NYT accusing them of a double standard in publishing offensive material. Do either the blogger or the letter writer have knowledge of internal discussions of the Times editors? If so and if these discussions revealed fear as the driving force, I would accept your proof that one major newspaper made their decision from fear.
I believe that discretion drove the decision to report the cartoon story without the cartoons. I can't prove it, but at least I have seen statements from newspapers claiming this.
Is Bush trying to start a(nother) civil war here too? It won't be long before he declares himself leader for life (or until the end of the, by definition, endless war on terrah!) because of national security reasons.
ReplyDeleteGedaliya:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Lobbying is a constitutionally protected profession???? Sounds like something a RWer would think, but I hardly think that this is something the founders intended
Let's see, Amendment I to the Constitution of the United States:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Yeah, petition all you want. That doesn't mean that your profession is constitutionally protected. The right to petition is a right of "the "people" (and that right to petition hardly means the right to be paid to take Congresscritters on junkets and write laws for them in return). Unlike the press, which is kind of given its own little niche here as an institution. Show me where it says "the freedom ... of the lobbyists". Really, Gedaliya, this argument of yours and Schoenfeld's is so inane as to be almost comical in its audacity. Ever thought of writing for "The Daily Show"?
Cheers,
pmain said:
ReplyDelete"Why pick one religion over the other, unless it is fear of violent reprisal."
That's a good point. And a difficult one to answer. I am not so sure that fear is not a factor but I'll try to address one religion as opposed to the other.
Five times a day Muslims face Mecca and kneel and pray. Five times a day. Now, I hate to say it this way, but some religions are just more religious than others. Bear in mind I avoid church religiously.
One thing I do know is their is only one unforgivable sin. You can lie and cheat and steal elections but all is forgiven if you jump through whatever hoops your belief requires. The exception is blasphemy. This is unpardonable. And this is the crime that is committed by publishing images of Mohammed.
Mohammed is the prophet to these extremely religious people who pray five times a day. They do not come from an open society where slurs against prophets occur. We do. And we know how to deal with it. Freedom of speech. We protest and boycott and rally for our cause.
Muslims find these cartoons most offensive, and like abortion clinics, publishers run the risk of drawing fire from the fanatics. And I'm not so sure cartoons couldn't have the same affect on the religious right as well, as far as driving a truck bomb into a building.
but I still bridle at attitudes like hypatia:
pious invocations of "sensitivity."
I don't think sensitivity to this is pious at all. Which she uses here as a snarky dismissal of any other motive outside of pure terror.
Baby eaten by pit bull;
Handicapped child falls into wood chipper;
Lions three Christians zero;
film at eleven.
arne langsetmo writes:
ReplyDeleteCommenting further on the Schoenfeld tripe:
You may not agree with Gabriel Schoenfeld's essay, but to characterize it as "tripe" is inexcusable. Schoenfeld is an important and highly respected editor, writer and thinker, and has admirers on both sides of the political divide. Besides, for someone who you believe produces "tripe," you sure have spent a lot of time responding to his essay.
But I'd be curios to know what Schoenfeld (and Gedaliya) think of the Plame case. Should the government officials (i.e., Rove, Libby, and Cheney) be hauled up under the Espionage Act for their part in revealing the covert status of Valerie Plame?
No one in the Bush administration is accused of committing a criminal act in regard revealing Valerie Plame's name (except for Libby's dubious perjury charge). The relevant law in the case, as Arne knows, is not the 1917 Espionage Act, but instead the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1972.
The fact that Fitzgerald filed no charges under the provision of either act in the Plame case should put to rest any doubt as to whether the individuals you name are guilty of revealing classified information of any sort in the matter.
The Press has the same First Amendment rights as the common citizens who blog here and elsewhere - no more, no less - no matter how special they consider themselves.
ReplyDeleteThere is no comparison whatsoever between the Muhammad cartoon and the illegal disclosure of a classified signals intelligence program to the enemy.
The First Amendment was first and foremost to protect the expression of political ideas, even if they are wrongheaded and insulting like the Muhammad cartoon.
Conversely, there is no First Amendment right to betray your country by disclosing secret programs to the enemy. The Espionage Act makes this a crime and is not barred by the First Amendment
If a true whistleblower believes that the government is acting illegally, he or she can go to the IG.
If they doesn't trust the IG, they can go to Justice.
If they don't trust the entire executive branch, they can go to Congress.
There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for betraying your country by disclosing a top secret program to the enemy as your first course of action.
The Espionage Act applies equally to the Press. I find it incredible that the writers at Slate actually argued that they have some sort of First Amendment right to reveal highly sensitive national security secrets to this nation's enemies. If there is any justice, they will discover that they are wrong.
In this case, the NYT reporter and his editors were told a year before publication about the importance and extreme confidentiality of the NSA program. The President himself pleaded with them not to disclose this program to the enemy.
Rather then checking with Congress and the FISA court to verify that this program was under oversight by the other two branches and that no one considered it to be illegal, these SOBs wrote a book and published several articles informing the enemy how we were surveilling them.
The NYT has absolutely no defense.
There are several cells in a SuperMax waiting for these leakers, Risen and his NYT editor.
you don't think bennet doesn't get a little "tittie" action when he is gambling with the "big boys" in the casinos?
ReplyDeleteLOL
Like to see THOSE apples on TV...
Funny how Bill Bennett and Co. rhapsodize about the wonder of the free economic market, but don't endorse the free market of ideas.
ReplyDeleteWell that is a no-brainer. The military-industrial complex, largely owned by chimpy's "super-rich" base can't make money on a "free market of ideas."
In fact, it might make it harder to steal what they got now.
Don't kid yourself, they are laughing all the way to the bank!
Issue of free press, and finding out the RNC attacks against it. There's a larger pattern -- Trying to find a way to link UAE, Rove's Agenda, NSA, and 9-11?
ReplyDeleteKw = thesis [ Link ]
"I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack."
ReplyDeleteI can't get past this statement. It is making me sick, and I have to leave this blog for a while.
This is so misguided, irresponsible, thickheaded, and blind in failing to distinguish between meaningful issues of free press worth fighting for and trivial non-issues which have to do with the freely exercised discretion of various newspapers to decide what to publish, that it makes me want to scream.
Anyone who thinks it is the "duty" of newspapers to publish a bunch of silly cartoons that offend a certain religion and expose people to easily avoided civil unrest for no valid reason, is not thinking clearly.
Gee, this is really beneath you, Glenn.
And who cares about this cartoon issue anyway, with everything else that is going on? The VC has driven away all but a few lingering readers with its incessant pounding on this issue about which nobody really cares.
Now prosecuting the NY Times for the wiretapping story, THAT is something worth fighting tooth and nail against.
gedaliya writes:You may not agree with Gabriel Schoenfeld's essay, but to characterize it as "tripe" is inexcusable. Schoenfeld is an important and highly respected editor, writer and thinker, and has admirers on both sides of the political divide.
ReplyDeleteI know no one is going to believe this, and I'm really not intending to simply engage in ridicule -- but this just did totally make me laugh long and hard. Gedaliya, I thought you reverence for Byron York was a bit odd, but this is just too precious.
"Inexcusable" to dismiss this person's claims because he is "important" and has "admirers"? I mean, do you have York and Schoenfeld's posters plastered on your bedroom wall? Some votive candles lit before them, perhaps?
Having favored sources is one thing, but this sweet, worshipful attitude you evince for yours brings to mind a 15-yr-old girl clutching the recent issue of Teen Heartthrob.
"Inexcusable" to dismiss this person's claims because he is "important" and has "admirers"?
ReplyDeleteThat's not what I said. I admonished arne for characterizing Schoenfeld's essay as "tripe," not for dismissing his views. There is no excuse for this statement, other than it was made by someone seemingly incapable of serious discourse.
And another thing. It is true that I said Schoenfeld has admirers. But you conveniently left out the rest of the sentence, i.e., that Schoenfeld has admirers on both sides of the political divide. Michael Moore has admirers, but you won't find many (if any) on my side of the aisle.
Schoenfeld published his essay in the public press, and in doing so invites critical examination. That's fine. But for arne to characterize his views as "tripe" reveals more about arne than about Gabriel Schoenfeld, and I hesitate not in pointing this out.
I am for a free and open press. I believe what the NYT did with the domestic spying issue was justified.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I thought the cartoons were in really bad taste and extremely offensive as it was a stereotype-ing Muslims and Arabs as terrorists (the one with the turban that was a bomb). I do not support hate speech (or cartoons) because I do not see the utility out of it. What purpose does that hold?
I support a writer/cartoonist First Amendment rights and I would not specifically ban them, however, I would advise against it.
Think about it, what if someone wanted to print a cartoon of a black man dressed or behaving stereotypically? Would you say that would be okay to print it? Personally, I would find it repulsive (I wouldn't torch buildings, cars or burn flags however). I would think the editors would use their best judgment and not print them.
I hope that comes across the right way. I just do not see the justification of printing obviously racist cartoons (bomb for a turban). I am not saying they should be "banned" or any formality like that. I guess in our supposedly equal society in the U.S. where we disparage racism (supposedly) that we would have an "understanding" that it would not serve any real purpose to do that.
Call me a troll or a “cultist” but there hasn’t been any proof released that shows that they are guilty yet. Congress won’t pursue it or hasn’t so far, no court has taken up the case, so most of this discussion is pure political conjecture & nothing more.
ReplyDeleteThat's all very nice except for one tiny detail: Bush and his administration have already admitted they are guilty of breaking the law (FISA). They claim the President has the Constitutional authority to do so at will during wartime, and further, they claim it is currently wartime. This is accompanied by a desperate attempt to silence all questioning of these claims, through official intimidation, covert payoffs to media personalities, and carefully scripted public exposure.
The defendant here has already pled guilty, and is now trying to talk the judge into giving him a medal for it.
However, I thought the cartoons were in really bad taste and extremely offensive as it was a stereotype-ing Muslims and Arabs as terrorists (the one with the turban that was a bomb). I do not support hate speech (or cartoons) because I do not see the utility out of it. What purpose does that hold?
ReplyDeleteDo you think television shows should refrain from broadcasting content which depicts gay couples or characters who have abortion because it's offensive to Christians?
Do you think art galleries should refrain from showing Piss Christ because that's offensive to Catholics?
Not that it matters for the debate, but I didn't see those cartoons as a condemnation of Islam. I saw them as a condemnation of the distortion of Islam for violent ends.
But either way, many of the same people who are insisting that these cartoons have no worth because they offend Muslim religious dictates seem much less concerned about artistic and journalistic works which offend Christian religious dictates. Why is that?
The only reason why a blogosphere exists where we can gather and express ideas which are critical of the government - and organize against it - is because of guarantees of free expression. It's hard for me to understand how anyone who believes there is value in that could be so dismissive of thuggish and violent attacks on that freedom.
Drey raved...
ReplyDeleteThere are several cells in a SuperMax waiting for these leakers, Risen and his NYT editor.
Let's send those mother fuckers to Siberia! Let's hang them! Traitors!
Let's lynch them and burn down their houses! Rape their wives. Slit their throats.
Long live George Bush! Long live our glorious war!
Putting journalists in jail who embarrass the Commander. THAT is what America is all about. THAT is why we must win over Al Qaeda.
Long live George Bush! Viva El Presidente!
This has nothing at all to do with Mr. Bush. Mr. Clinton was running two very similar programs called Able Danger and Echelon.
This has everything to do with betraying the United States to a mortal enemy at a time of war.
This is the equivalent of an anti-FDR newspaper publishing the details of ENIGMA for the Germans and Japanese during WWII.
Time to wake up. This is not political sand box stuff. This is life and death real life.
Life in prison for the leakers and 20 years for the reporters should be adequate to stop this nonsense.
Glenn said:
ReplyDelete"I saw them as a condemnation of the distortion of Islam for violent ends."
I don't think Muslim's would make that distinction. And Bennetts attempt to stoke some sort of local strife to bolster Bushs claims about warrantless wiretapping is disgusting.
Do you think television shows should refrain from broadcasting content which depicts gay couples or characters who have abortion because it's offensive to Christians?
ReplyDeleteDo you think art galleries should refrain from showing Piss Christ because that's offensive to Catholics?
Not that it matters for the debate, but I didn't see those cartoons as a condemnation of Islam. I saw them as a condemnation of the distortion of Islam for violent ends.
But either way, many of the same people who are insisting that these cartoons have no worth because they offend Muslim religious dictates seem much less concerned about artistic and journalistic works which offend Christian religious dictates. Why is that?
The only reason why a blogosphere exists where we can gather and express ideas which are critical of the government - and organize against it - is because of guarantees of free expression. It's hard for me to understand how anyone who believes there is value in that could be so dismissive of thuggish and violent attacks on that freedom.
You make good points and I agree with them. I do not think they (TV, art galleries, etc.) do that at all.
The way you spell out your perception of the meaning of the cartoons definitely puts them into a different light.
When I saw the cartoon with the bomb as/in the turban, I saw it as racism plain and simple (which is probably why people like Malkin and Coulter enjoy these cartoons).
However, if those cartoons are a condemnation of the extremists, thats a different story. The turban picture, to me, seemed so generalized, I thought it was purporting all Muslims and Arabs as terrorists.
Therefore, I stand corrected.
Thanks Glenn.
Let me add "should" to this...
ReplyDeleteYou make good points and I agree with them. I do not think they (TV, art galleries, etc.) do that at all.
into...
"You make good points and I agree with them. I do not think they (TV, art galleries, etc.) should do that at all."
Bart sed:
ReplyDelete"Time to wake up. This is not political sand box stuff. This is life and death real life"
And we arrived at this point at the direction of our leader. His humongous erection for war caused a pre-emptive war on a foreign country based on fixed intel.
And now the only possible conclusion to this has happened--civil war in Iraq. No one with an IQ higher than room temperature expected anything else. Now expect these strong anti-American feelings spread throughout the middle east.
You're right bart, this isn't a sandbox, and "yeehaw" is not a foreign policy.
"What is going on here could not be clearer. A free press is one of the few remaining checks on our government. People like Bennett want to compel the press to publish ideas which they like by disguising their demands under a banner of a principled belief in a free press – a belief which immediately disappears when the press publishes ideas that they dislike or which are politically damaging to the President, in which case the press should be attacked as subversive and treasonous and even be criminally prosecuted by the Bush Administration." said Glenn
ReplyDeletein an article which was titled "Bush followers masquerade as free press advocates while attacking freedom of the press"
I and several other posters cannot agree as to whether or not we agree with the Bennett/Dershowitz argument that the Mohammed cartoons should be published to preserve freedom of the press. But that is only a single sentence from Glenn's post.
We can agree that Bennett is a hypocrite both in this argument and in his pose as a moral arbiter while having a several million dollar gambling addiction. Dershowitz puzzles me. Why co-author with Bennett?
* I would suggest an off topic diversion. The 2nd comment notes Bennett's career as 'Drug Czar'. Before that he was Secretary of Education where he attacked the dreaded multi-culturism infecting even elite universities. I recommend the counterattack: "Laying the Ladder Down" by Betty Jean Craige. Bill is laughingly overmatched since she is far more learned in Bill's preferred Western culture.
Excellent post. As always. I really enjoy reading your posts. Keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteThis film tells the truth about what the Catholic Church in Ireland did to girls and women, and it is a horrific truth.
ReplyDeleteThis conservative site admits the film is accurate, but is unhappy the movie was made and distributed, and invokes criticisms of it similar to thsoe made here about publishing the Danish Cartoons:
Nobody likes to see representatives of their own group demonized or dehumanized on the screen. Stereotyped depictions of villainous bucktoothed Japanese, fanatical Arab terrorists, brutal military men, menacing urban blacks, hate-filled intolerant Christians, and similar negative portrayals of other groups have all been the subjects of protest and outcry... Perhaps [the director/producer] didn’t consciously set out to make an anti-Catholic film. D. W. Griffith didn’t set out to make a racist film, but it doesn’t make Birth of a Nation any less racist.
So, I assume all the defenders of respecting Muslim sensibilities also condemn, in the strongest terms, the film The Magadalene Sisters -- one of my favorite movies, which according to some should never have been made.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDeleteYou may not agree with Gabriel Schoenfeld's essay, but to characterize it as "tripe" is inexcusable.
Ummm, "freedom of speech", remember? ;-)
Look, I pointed out why I thought he was Full'O'It. You igored most of my substantive response. So I'd say that right now my First-Amendment-protected opinion carries a bit more weight than yours.
Schoenfeld is an important and highly respected editor, writer and thinker, and has admirers on both sides of the political divide.
Well, this can hardly be his best missive then. But, to be honest, I really don't give a tinker's dam what other nameless and faceless people think of him. To be blunt, no matter how "admired" he is, he has to stand on his own two feet in order to impress me. That he has not done.
Besides, for someone who you believe produces "tripe," you sure have spent a lot of time responding to his essay.
I believe in pointing out nonsense when ti masquerades for "debate". And I hav a real antipathy to intellectual dishonesty, which is what I think he engaged in (for instance, his miasmatic efflux about Plame's undercover status).
[Arne]: But I'd be curio[u]s to know what Schoenfeld (and Gedaliya) think of the Plame case. Should the government officials (i.e., Rove, Libby, and Cheney) be hauled up under the Espionage Act for their part in revealing the covert status of Valerie Plame?
No one in the Bush administration is accused of committing a criminal act in regard revealing Valerie Plame's name (except for Libby's dubious perjury charge)....
True as for formal charges, but what -- if we're to take Schoenfeld's "logic" here seriously -- should be done? You see, at least two maladministration officials have admitted (under oath) that they did out Plame.
... The relevant law in the case, as Arne knows, is not the 1917 Espionage Act, but instead the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1972.
Ummm, why? Why don't we use the 1917 act, if Schoenfeld is right? Hmmmmm????
The fact that Fitzgerald filed no charges under the provision of either act in the Plame case should put to rest any doubt as to whether the individuals you name are guilty of revealing classified information of any sort in the matter.
Oh, they're guilty of revealing classified information. Nice friends you have. Whether it's a crime is another matter.
Cheers,
bart sez:
ReplyDeleteIn this case, the NYT reporter and his editors were told a year before publication about the importance and extreme confidentiality of the NSA program....
No. The maladministration asserted that this program was of importance and extreme confidentiality. There's a difference.
... The President himself pleaded with them not to disclose this program to the enemy.
You misspelled "public".
Cheers,
Gedaliya sez:
ReplyDeleteThat's not what I said. I admonished arne for characterizing Schoenfeld's essay as "tripe," not for dismissing his views. There is no excuse for this statement, other than it was made by someone seemingly incapable of serious discourse.
Ummm, seems to me that it was you that ignored the substance of my criticism of Schoenfeld, so you're hardly one to lecture others on the fine points of "discourse".....
Cheers,
"The only thing that leads to lost rights is government action, not elective failure to exercise them," says Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI'm hours or maybe days late reacting, but can't see that anyone else has. That statement is worse than utter nonsense. Believing it is dangerous. Many sorts of real or imagined threats cause people "electively" to fail to exercise their rights!
Life in prison for the leakers and 20 years for the reporters should be adequate to stop this nonsense.
ReplyDeleteWhat specifically did Al Qaeda learn as a result of the Risen article, Bart?
Which sentence(s) in the article exactly disclosed information to Al Qaeda that would enable them to evade surveillance?
Since you're insisting that Americans be put in prison for the rest of their lives and that journalists go to jail for a couple of decades, I'm sure you have a good answer to those questions, right?
hypatia said:
ReplyDelete"So, I assume all the defenders of respecting Muslim sensibilities also condemn, in the strongest terms, the film The Magadalene Sisters -- one of my favorite movies, which according to some should never have been made."
You would assume incorrectly. As the film is, and I take your word for it, an important and historical work.
And the cartoons are not.
Glenn feels the cartoons poke fun not at Islam but the hijacking of the religion by fanatics. (bomb in Turban)
I enjoy political cartoons immensly and really got a charge out of the one the joint chiefs condemned in writing. To offend just to offend is just tacky.
Glenn - disagree slightly.
ReplyDeleteThe press has no duty to publish or not publish these cartoons. Freedom of the press guarantees it the right to publish the cartoons - it also guarantees it the right NOT to publish them.
Most of the stridency we see emanating from the neocon side of the aisle demanding the cartoons' publication also makes the point that not to print them is cowardly. But this is a canard. Those who publish these cartoons here in the USA, like their comrades-in-arms the 101s fighting keyboarders, place themeselves in no immediate danger. The only people endangered by their publication are other westerners in some of these Moslem countries who happen to get in the way of the mobs stirred up by anger over the cartoons.
I respect the RIGHT of any newspaper publisher who wants to publish the cartoons. I likewise respect the RIGHT of a publisher who chooses not to print them. I further respect the JUDGMENT of those newspaper publishers who choose not to engage in repeating the "experiment" of stirring up that hornet's nest yet again.
Those who scream demands of all newspaper publishers that they must publish the cartoons do so in the hope of stirring up once again the Clash of Civilizations into a real war - which, of course, they themselves won't get within 10000 miles of.
An interesting act of press censorship by the administration is that they don't allow the coffins of dead soldiers flown back from Iraq to be shown. Always was allowed before.
ReplyDeleteAs the film is, and I take your word for it, an important and historical work.
ReplyDeleteAnd the cartoons are not.
So, if a political cartoonist had depicted a Reverend Mother locking a frightened young woman up in an Irish convent -- when that was happening only a few decades ago -- that cartoon should have been self-censored by all decent newspapers. And if Catholics had bombed and rioted, all media should have caved in.
some people just don't get it....
ReplyDeletedo ya think the powers BEHIND the smirking chimp arranged for him to steal the 2000 election so that he could represent freedom and the "will of the people?"
LOL
chimpy aint our trouble -- there are plenty of alcoholic/coke heads that are ready to step up to the plate.
Already they’ve torn large chunks out of the Constitution.
ReplyDeleteIts just a god damned piece of paper.
George W. Bush
Chimperor in Chief
it isn't often I get a kind word in these parts. I do very much appreciate it
ReplyDeleteWell its "interesting" when the kids plug the toilet with their action figures too (know I should not have boughty that toy chimp in a flight suit!)
his "debates" and "intellectual arguments" are not much different than a plugged toilet, and a lot lest honest too
this isn't a sandbox
ReplyDeletecould of fooled me, what with the king-sized kitty doo-doo and the overwhelming stench of this administration...
Hypatia peace, please. The Magdalene Sisters sounds like an important film, but I am unwilling to condemn it sight unseen merely because of my views on a issue that is distinguishable if only to my perception.
ReplyDeleteOilfieldguy feels the cartoons are less significant than the film.
Hypatia replies: So, if a political cartoonist had depicted a Reverend Mother locking a frightened young woman up in an Irish convent -- when that was happening only a few decades ago .....
No I don't think such a cartoon should have been refused publication anymore than cartoons about priests and altar boys and archbishops who would not protect their congregations. I also have no objections to cartoons about Moslems who bomb mosques or markets in the service of Allah.
do ya think the powers BEHIND the smirking chimp arranged for him to steal the 2000 election so that he could represent freedom and the "will of the people?"
ReplyDeleteWho is this "power"? The AA God we give ourselves over to? The Trilateral Commission? The Elders of Zion? Wizard of Oz?
Do tell us, oh paranoid wise one.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeletegedaliya said...
"What law is that?
I am surprised, counselor, that you're not aware of the...
1917 ESPIONAGE ACT
§798. Disclosure of Classified Information."
And there isn't anything in that act that applies to what the NYT printed.
-------------------------------------
Read some court cases into that and you will find how that section could be tip-toed around.
Thnx m.a. very amusing link. So difficult to distinguish between security leaks which imperil me as I cower in my condo and security leaks which make me safer. So easy to distinguish those that which make our leader more or less secure.
ReplyDeletearne langsetmo writes:
ReplyDeleteYeah, petition all you want. That doesn't mean that your profession is constitutionally protected.
Hmmm. In other words, congress could pass a law preventing me from setting up a business for the sole purpose of soliciting clients to pay me to represent their interests and communicate their concerns to their elected representatives?
How would that law work? How would it be enforced? How exactly such a law pass constitutional muster?
Are you actually suggesting that the the professional of "lobbyist" could be outlawed, say, in the same way the professions of "child pornographer" or "espionage agent" are not permitted under law?
I wait your explanation with eager anticipation.
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for betraying your country by disclosing a top secret program to the enemy as your first course of action."
Then Bart said:
"In this case, the NYT reporter and his editors were told a year before publication about the importance and extreme confidentiality of the NSA program. The President himself pleaded with them not to disclose this program to the enemy."
You sound a bit confused Bart. When you are talking about the enemy you are talking about Al Qaida right? The whistleblower didn't take it right to Al Qaida, he/she took it to the NYT, who like good patriots took it to the President. And then they sat on it for a year at the Presidents request.
"Rather then checking with Congress and the FISA court to verify that this program was under oversight by the other two branches and that no one considered it to be illegal, these SOBs wrote a book and published several articles informing the enemy how we were surveilling them."
Under oversight by the other two branches? Which branches would those be. The branches in the Rose Garden?
The FISA court was never notified which is what all the fuss is about. Bush skipped the FISA court and never got a warrant for doing any of the searches.
The Congress? He notified the gang of eight. Which is a notification normally reserved for covert operations, not general inteligence gathering. And they were gagged, They couldn't talk to counsel or anyone else about what they were briefed on. Senator Rockefeller did right a letter to VP Cheney with his concerns about the legality of the program. To my knowledge he never received a reply.
Now I can't get inside the reporters heads and know why they published the story when they did but you should consider this before you talk about the supermax etc.
The President knew about the story a year before it was published. So if what the reporters did was actually illegal and Bush didn't have them arrested and have the story quashed before it was printed then it looks like that kinda makes him guilty too.
Gedaliya sez:
ReplyDeleteHmmm. In other words, congress could pass a law preventing me from setting up a business for the sole purpose of soliciting clients to pay me to represent their interests and communicate their concerns to their elected representatives?
Actually, it could, consistent with the First Amendment at least (some might argue that such a law is beyond the enumerated powers of Congress, but there's always Wickard v. Filburn...). If you're engaged in interstate commerce here, they could tax the bejeezuz out of you, make you get a license, or prohibit your profession outright. The right of the people to petition is their right; you have no right make a living doing it (supposedly) for them for pay. Just as you may have a right to speak, you have no right to make a radion station carry your stuff, nor does anyone who wants to run a radion station have a right to do so on the pretense that they are yhelping others with their First Amendment rights.
But back to the point, even if we were to grant thatr lobbying is protected by the First Ame3ndment (which it is not), the actions of the AIPAC folks had nuttin' to do with their "public service" of lobbying, and a lot to do with handing over secrets to a foreign power. But that's who Schoenfeld pretends is doing a job as important as journalism??? Gimme a break (while I hurl...)
Cheers,
oilfieldguy: good thing there is at least one poster on this site who is intelligent, civil, and KIND.
ReplyDeleteI live in a major American city. I have many Muslim associates, and a few Muslim friends. They are, to a person, a delight. Unlike the large number of Hispanics who commit crimes, deal drugs, feed off the public dole, etc., the Muslims are generally hard working, eager to get ahead and fit in, and a really nice addition to the ethnic mix in this country. Does stating a true fact about Hispanics make me a racist? I don't think so.
I enjoy living in harmony with the Muslims in my city. As a matter of fact, as I look out across America, I am not aware of much unrest, violence, crime or disobedience coming from Muslims. They seem to have assimilated nicely, and become part of the community here. Most hold jobs, or two jobs, and are hard working. The ones I know worship America. They don't commit welfare fraud, steal other's credit cards, or have drug war shoot outs.
Because they are neighbors of mine, and are deserving of respect because of their civility, I see no reason to offend them. Nobody in this country has had one riot because of the cartoons published in Europe, where literally hundreds of people have died, and there have been countless riots.
Whole cities in Nigeria were massacred. Does Glenn give a damn about those lost lives? Apparently not. Glenn, there are children in Nigeria who now have to go through life with one eye, one leg, one arm, victims of a conflict which wasn't theirs. Do you give a damn?
No. Glenn doesn't want me to live harmoniously with my neighbors. He wants me to spit in their faces by urging my local newspapers to publish cartoons, CARTOONS, no less, which are offensive to their religion. Not exactly the Diary of Anne Frank, but CARTOONS!
He argues, sounding more and more like Gedaliya, that the pictures are only meant to depict Islamic violence. This is really a vicious argument, as we know that the cartoonists who were urged to participate in the program were instructed to do nothing of the sort. They were merely asked to do cartoons which contained pictures of Mohammed, which is apparently offensive to some lawbiding, devout Muslims.
Glenn's postion is so insensitive, so evil, really, so childish, so INSENSITIVE AND MYOPIC that it makes steam come out of my ears.
Successful melting pots succeed because people are respectful of their neighbors' sensitivities. We live with our Muslim neighbors here harmoniously, which much of Western Europe does not. Maybe that's because we have become more sensitive to different cultures, different religions, different lifestyles.
We have not been harmed in this country by Islamic violence by Muslims living here, but Glenn isn't appreciative of that harmony, in difficult times for them, he'd rather we offend them and trivialize their sensibilities, show them they are unwanted here, so he can pontificate about freedom of the press, missing the whole point of the real role of a free press in a democracy.
Hey! Maybe Glenn attacks Bennett but not Dershowitz because Dershowitz is Jewish. Why else did he distinguish between those two sorry losers?
I hope that doesn't offend you, Glenn, but you see, freedom of expression is paramount to me, and I'd hate to restrain myself, because my right, my DUTY even, is to say any offensive thing I can think of so as not to be accused of being afraid to do so.
THIS is what it's come to? THIS is the program Glenn is working on? It starts out as an eloquent defense of civil liberties, resistance to fascist programs like the NSA spying program, and ends up as a not so nakedly disguised prejudice against Muslims?
COUNT. ME. OUT.
PS. Is fear always a bad thing, Glenn? How about fear of being offensive? How about fear of gratuitously belittling others' beliefs to serve no valid point? How about fear of upsetting a wonderfully stable applecart? How about fear of being obnoxious and going out of one's way to offend another to prove some sophmoric point?
Gedaliya hates our freedoms. Congress never declared war, nor did it suspend the constitution publicly. Funny, had the Democrats been as totalitarian as the right wing jibber jabbers here, just think how many "patriots" would be in FEMA (back when it was a competent agency) reeducation camps for calling the BATF "jack booted thugs" just for shooting up a few pockets of warped dissenters. Shoe other foot make hurt!
ReplyDeleteI knew from reading the first comment it wrote that it would have been a happier Gedalia if it had been born and raised in North Korea, Cuba, or some other totalitarian state where authorities suppress not only dissent but the appearance of variance with the mandate of the elites.
Say Boing!!! if you are for freedom.
Great piece and great debate as usual, Mr. Greenwald.
ReplyDeleteOilfieldguy, I agree with you. The distinction between mere "offense" and actual blasphemy is lost on some of the same people who take an absolutist view on free speech.
I believe in absolute free speech, by the way, and I think the rioters have been manipulated -- but I also believe in respect for the genuine beliefs of others.
I see the cartoons in the context of the invasion of Iraq, or Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo -- another example of creeping, culturally sanctioned hatred and dehumanization of Muslims.
- mercury
Are there differences between the publishing of the Danish cartoons and the photos of Abu-Ghirab? Absolutely. The torture of Iraqi prisoners was the story, and the photos were the corrobotaring evidence. The Danish cartoons, in contrast, are notable less for what they themselves may contain, but for the response that they have generated throughout the Muslim world.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think it's pretty appalling how few newspapers chose to carry the cartoons. I also think it would be appalling if newspapers refused to carry Ann Coutler's raghead line out of fear of Muslim sensibility. Both the cartoons and Culter's racist ranting are part of the historical record, and for better or for worse, are necessary for understanding what is going on both in this country and around the world.
"Many sorts of real or imagined threats cause people "electively" to fail to exercise their rights!"
ReplyDeleteSo what? Why even talk about people who are cowered by imaginary forces?
There is no threat to free press except government action: laws, courts, the police, licenses, etc., all functions of government.
There is only one entity which can have the legal power to intrude on a person's life, limit his freedom of expression, and imprison his thoughts: government.
arne langsetmo:
ReplyDeleteThe right of the people to petition is their right; you have no right make a living doing it...
So, the right of the people to engage in "free speech" is the "their right" and you have no right making a living at it?? I suspect "Pinch" Sulzberger might take issue with this fantastic and ridiculous statement.
If you're engaged in interstate commerce here, they could tax the bejeezuz out of you, make you get a license, or prohibit your profession outright.
For that to happen the meaning of the words "Congress shall make no law" would have to substantially change, a development I suspect is more than a little unlikely.
But that's who Schoenfeld pretends is doing a job as important as journalism???
Well, given the unambiguous words of the first amendment, where "free speech" and "right to petition" are in the same paragraph (right under the "Congress shall make no law prohibiting" part), the relative importance of each is not articulated with any specificity that I can discern. In that respect I can see Schoenfeld's point.
gedaliya as I European I must say that you're extremely close to agreeing with the politics of Hitler...
ReplyDelete"Extremely close"? Does that mean I would have murdered only 5,735,224 Jews instead of 6,000,000?
For that I get no credit?
Young man, given that your weak-kneed and defenseless nation is in the process of destroying itself (I assume you're Dutch) by being outbred by its muslim inhabitants at the rate of two or three to one, my guess is that within a very short time (your lifetime, kid), you'll be facing a social crisis that makes anything you're witnessing here seem like child's play.
In that eventuality the probability that one or more homegrown Hitlers will emerge in a vain attempt to rescue your nation and culture from its death throes is more than trivial, and I do wonder what side you'll end up on in that monumental struggle.
You've got trouble coming down the pike, kid, quite a bit more than you can even imagine, so if I were you I'd be a bit more cautious about throwing the "Hitler" charge about so aimlessly.
In that eventuality the probability that one or more homegrown Hitlers will emerge in a vain attempt to rescue your nation and culture from its death throes is more than trivial, and I do wonder what side you'll end up on in that monumental struggle.
ReplyDeleteIs it just me, or did gedaliya just make Michaelgalien's point(s) with this comment?
Oh, for a "homegrown Hitler" of our very own to save us from the "monumental struggle" our nation faces!
gedaliya's worldview:
muslim fundamentalist theocracy
or
NeoNazi-ism
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeletebart sez:
In this case, the NYT reporter and his editors were told a year before publication about the importance and extreme confidentiality of the NSA program....
No. The maladministration asserted that this program was of importance and extreme confidentiality. There's a difference.
Really?
You will have to work to find anyone in Congress who does not agree with the President and supports this program.
... The President himself pleaded with them not to disclose this program to the enemy.
You misspelled "public".
The fact that you coflate al Qaeda with the American public says it all...
Cheers,
anon writes: Oilfieldguy, I agree with you. The distinction between mere "offense" and actual blasphemy is lost on some of the same people who take an absolutist view on free speech.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly is a distinction that is lost on me -- anti-blasphemy laws have been a deeply harmful burden on free speech, in many countries. I'd commend to you the book Blasphemy: Verbal Offenses Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie, by Leonard W. Levy.
Therein you will learn that in the UK, in 1976, a journal that catered to a gay readership, Gay News, and a poet they published, James Kirkup, were prosecuted for blasphemy. Their crime was to have printed a poem with an accompanying picture of Christ on the cross, fully naked and "well hung," and the gay Roman centurion who had been Jesus' lover lovingly takes the body from the cross and performs various sex acts on it. The poem blasphemed Xianity in a number of ways, and mocked Xian beliefs. The paper and the poet were convicted of blasphemy after conservative Xian Brits demanded it.
Yes, let's hear it for blasphemy as more than a "mere offense," and insist that it should not be included in the universe of speech that is free. Blasphemy prosecutions in the U.S., btw, have not taken place for over a century, because of our First Amendment. Thank God. [sic]
"There is only one entity which can have the legal power to intrude...", says Anonymous now.
ReplyDeleteNot being a lawyer, I can only cite examples, not cases. Perhaps you are right, formally.
Jyllands-Posten asked more than 40 professional cartoonists to submit drawings of their impressions of Muhammed. Only 12 did. Many of the rest were "cowered by imaginary forces" as you put it. And several of the 12 are now under police protection in undisclosed locations.
As late as 1970, people I knew were still running scared because of what had been done to them or their friends during the McCarthy period. Done legally, I suppose, by government.
I suspect that many Katrina evacuees will not be able to vote in 2006. Red tape: can't prove who you are or residence. Done legally, I suppose, by government.
I still think that losing rights through "elective" failure to exercise them is a real danger.
michaelgalien writes to gedaliya:
ReplyDelete"... were you living in Europe, or better said Germany in the period 1933-1945 you'd be a fierce supporter of Hitler. It's remarkable how much your opinions agree with the entire message of Hitler."
To my European cousin: first, remember that the authoritarian ideology trumpeted by gedaliya espouses superceding normal political sensibilities, such as "conservative" or "Republican", and pledging fealty instead to a PERSON; and by extension, his administration, his cronies and his family.
On that last point, michaelgalien: Bush's own grandfather did more than merely "support" Hitler. Prescott Bush was instrumental in funding Hitler.
The press, the pundits and the poltical opponents of W have apparently decided to label this unseemly fact as, quoting Condoleezza Rice, "historical in nature". As if the actual actions of its key members somehow took place in a vacuum, out of context with the traditions and goals of the dynasty Bush.
I choose not to buy-into this. I believe we're seeing the natural fruition of the Bush dynasty's long-term plans for this nation, and if you see a similarity between Hitler's usurpation of his nation's constitution and Bush's "unitarian presidency", I maintain it's hardly coincidental.
All this is simply to say that the postings of gedaliya (which can be seen on many blogs in fact) are hardly the work of an average citizen with average political sensibilities. It pains me to say anything "nice" about a person so hateful he would do such grave harm to his country, but the guy's intelligent, well-spoken... and a plant.
Surely, then, it is not lost on gedaliya that by endorsing a blank check for this maladministration, superceding even the constitutional concerns of so-called right-wing Republicans, he is pounding the table for Bush supremacist, "unitarian" rule; not "Republicanism".
Now, my point is, you don't do that, if you're an average American schmuck citizen. The Archie Bunker types who look at a president, see an authority figure, and figure they need to do whatever he says because, well gosh, he's the boss, generally do not advance eloquent, Bork-like arguments for an extra-Constitutional "unitarian presidency".
gedaliya is part of a massive pushback effort on the part of this maladministration. It was recently revealed that there was a mechanism in place in the Bush government, for doing exactly this type of assault on the flow of opinion and information found on today's internet. It is being executed with military precision and is well-funded and relentless (hey, ain't it great to know what a threat you and your free thoughts are to these powerful people?).
Will it work? Dunno. I think it's an extension of the "Big Lie" technique (which worked so well for soulmates Goebbals and Rove): if you glut the nation's blogs, the way they've glutted the nation's Op-Ed pages, with a tsunami of virulently pro-Bush invective (as opposed merely to "pro-Republican"), middle Americans' resistance will ultimately flag, and soon they'll all be convinced of the existence of a mythical groundswell support for American fascism.
The good news is I think the Bush Crime Family has a basic non-understanding of how new media works; a strident, pro-authoritarian "troll" will only prompt a rash of attacks from more progressive participants (who are emanating more and more each day from America's mainstream, the more outrageous this regime gets).
The bad news is, if they ultimately fail to win hearts and minds, there have been rumblings that their next step is to morph America's connectivity into a "Chinese internet". The technology is there, and the connectivity companies are all on-line ticket holders in the big Bush Cronyism Fest.
gedaliya is most def a "ringer" in the trendy campaign to convince Americans of some sort of legitimacy for a "unitarian presidency". But make no mistake, gedaliya and the entire neocon cabal exists to advance the long-term agenda of the Bush family. And the Bush family made its bones as power players, when they threw their lot in with the very tyrant whose very name defines modern tyranny.
Adolf Hitler. And I, for one, will never shy away from applying the epithet "nazi" to this Bush regime.
And finally, getting off the topic of a free press for a moment, here's the question of the day: would you ever let a violent biker know that someone is doing his old lady?
I want you to think of that seemingly nonsequitur parable in terms of how much "play" a few stupid cartoons in the Denmark Pennysaver had to get, in order for every Islamic extremist on the planet to be worked into a murderous froth.
And a followup question would be: what well-known cabal has the motive and the mechanism in place, to disseminate to the entire globe something that will pointedly demonstrate what a bunch of dangerous people those wacky Muslims are?
I have heard unsubstantiated rumor (this is, after all, "the internet" [g] ) that notorious neocon Daniel Pipes is somehow associated with the publication that put out those "offensive" cartoons. I would appreciate some more detailed information on this.
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteLife in prison for the leakers and 20 years for the reporters should be adequate to stop this nonsense.
What specifically did Al Qaeda learn as a result of the Risen article, Bart?
Which sentence(s) in the article exactly disclosed information to Al Qaeda that would enable them to evade surveillance?
Since you're insisting that Americans be put in prison for the rest of their lives and that journalists go to jail for a couple of decades, I'm sure you have a good answer to those questions, right?
In his book State of War, Risen tells al Qaeda:
1) The United States has successfully captured and exploited the communications information the enemy had stored in Afghanistan.
2) The publicly unknown technical fact that nearly all of the world's electronic communications run through hubs inside of or otherwise controlled by the United States. This was maybe the worst of the disclosures. Your average Jihadi had no idea that when he called from Pakistan to Saudi, that his call was being routed through US territory and companies.
3) The United States arrangement with several telecom companies to intercept enemy telecommunications through these hubs. This was an enormous intelligence lapse because al Qaeda was probably sweeping its telecommunications for bugs, determining that they were clean and thinking that they were operating in the clear.
4) The United States capability to use super computers to data mine literally millions of telecommunications at the same time which ran through these hubs. This kind of capability was previously impossible because you would need a team of human beings to listen for months on end to a single line. al Qaeda may have been banking on the fact that there were too many calls to monitor in the United States alone because they continued to operate in the clear and, according to the WP, the NSA program identified at least 10 targets in the US per year worthy of follow up FISA warrants to build criminal cases.
In his book, Risen makes no attempt to set forth a whistle blower defense. Risen admits that he knew of the program's top security clearance, that Congress and the FISA court were being briefed and that neither had objected to the program's legality, and that he was aware of several legal opinions supporting the program including the FISA review court opinion statements that the President had the constitutional authority to carry out this program and that FISA did not reach that authority. Risen does not bother to lay out a case why the program might be illegal.
Bottom line: Risen thinks he has the right as a reporter to reveal to the enemy the most closely held secrets of the United States to sell a book.
Not only should the Administration go after Risen for violating the Espionage Act and probably several other national security statutes, you probably have a RICO claim against the members of the NYT who conspired to disclose this information to the enemy and you can probably take Risen's book revenues with the Son of Sam Law.
The following cite gives you several of the key pages from Risen's book:
http://cryptome.org/nsa-program.htm
Hey folks this is a must read:
ReplyDeletetop neocon says movment a failure,
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=266122006&format=print
especially for you bush cult members
bart:
ReplyDeleteYour comments, to be quite charitable about all of this, are inane.
You are basically advancing the argument that if a person murders another, it is a crime to publish a story indicating that we have a police force, and that they have crime-fighting methods and technology, and that in the past this crime-fighting apparatus has been responsible for the capture of x many murderers.
You have quite deliberately not been addressive to Glenn Greenwald's question of specifically how what Risen wrote "aided" the terrorists.
My feeling is that if you're smart enough to build a homemade bomb, you're smart enough to know that there are forces of authority that will be looking for you, via any means possible. And if, by some tortured stretch of the imagination you aren't, I totally fail to see how being provided with this "information" is going to deal some sort of death blow to your nefarious activities.
I retiterate my earlier point, which is mainly that the average, beer-swillin' Amurcun does not generally post treatises espousing a radical interpretation of the United States Constitution, to enable criminalization of a free press when it exposes the activities of a maladministration who might find publicity of their own criminal activities to be embarassing or detrimental to their continued lawbreaking.
gedaliya,
ReplyDeleteIt is best to ignore anyone who compares anyone to Hitler. Either the comparison is inapt or historically inaccurate. In this case, I think Michael Galien meant not eliminationist policies but rather the absolute power of the leader to set policy and his freedom from criticism. For the record, the Enabling Act, passed after Hitler's installation -- as opposed to election -- to the Chancelorship, is usually seen as the end of the Weimar Constitution. To be fair, Hitler issued several decrees prior to the Enabling Act that diminished severely the rights of political expression, association, and the press.
As to lobbying and the constitution, I think you are just plain wrong. In addition, I think you are selectively quoting and thus distorting the 1st Amendment, which reads in full:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
As I read this it protects only one institution, the church, and only one occupation, the press. It does not expressly or implicitly state that any other occupation, which might make easier the realization of the other rights therein protected, is free from governmental or state oversight. Advocates of whatever nature who might make a more skilled case for the redress of all manner of grievence or more coherent petitions.
This is not to say that the government ought to regulate lobbyists, lobbying, or, for that matter, a citizen's ability to give money to a politician, i.e., campaign spending. Indeed, I would argue that the state, although perhaps consititutionally allowed, ought not interfer in these matters.
Consider for a moment, other occupations that involve speech. Teachers and professors, for example. Anyone is free to open a school or university or to present themselves as a teacher or professor. But it is necessary, is it not?, to jump through a series of hoops to obtain official recognition either of an educational institution or to claim the "official" status as a teacher or a professor. The fact that was has a right to speak does not translate into a constitutional protection of this unmentioned occupation, does it?
The state could, although again I think it ought not, regulate lobbying, through the regulation of the profession without comming into conflict with the 1st amendment. Could it not?
To my mind, the role of the press in publicizing governmental action serves to overcome the power of lobbying, which is why I think it was wrong, even if legal, of the vice president to deny his fellow citizens information concerning those with whom he consulted. He has a right to speak with whom he will, and indeed it would be irresponsible of any politician to neglect speaking with members of an industry under state regulation. However, the citizens have the right to know with whom it is he speaks so that they can properly assess his actions and thus arrive at an informed decision to support or deny their support to this or any other administration.
Obviously, I do not know why the founders agreed to the 1st Amendment. However, it seems likely that the oppressive press restriction then in opperation, in France for example, led the founders to oppose the regulation of the press precisely because it forstalled a citizens ability to judge accurately state and govenmental policy.
In other words, the press needs to be free because it functions to inform citizens of whatall the government is up to. The press not only allows citizens to express their dissatisfaction with governmental policies and, what is more, it allows citizens to know what the government was up to. So that they might express dissatisfaction.
In terms of the utility of publicizing the photos or the wiretaps, citizens oppose, on both sides of the (growing) political divide, these acts; absent knowledge of them opposition is impossible.
In other words, the press has the freedom to report what it will when it will because of the founders commitment to the necessity of ugly, cumbersome, and potentially damaging idea of governmenatal and state transparency.
In the case of the wiretaps, it seems to me, in any event, that the NYT acted responsibly and patriotically. They did not rush the information into print, and during the period in which they "sat" on the story it seems that they collected more detailed information, and one hopes, found further evidence of the nature of the wiretapping and its constitutional or legal status.
Thus, it seems to me that insisting not only that the state can but that it ought pursue criminal charges against a constitutionally protected occupation and to assert that the government has the right to protect its actions from public scrutiny is neither the former nor the latter.
I cannot believe that someone as interested in the good of the Republic, as you seem to be, could actually support any American government's freedom of its citizens proper oversight.
Michael Galien,
ReplyDeleteIt is important to remember that the very first internees in Nazi Germany were political opponents. The current American administration is not quite so bad as all that.
Barry Champlain said...
ReplyDeletebart:
Your comments, to be quite charitable about all of this, are inane.
You are basically advancing the argument that if a person murders another, it is a crime to publish a story indicating that we have a police force, and that they have crime-fighting methods and technology, and that in the past this crime-fighting apparatus has been responsible for the capture of x many murderers.
Who is being inane?
There is no comparison whatsoever between a classified signals intelligence program being used against an enemy during a time of war and unclassified crime fighting techniques taught in your average college.
You have quite deliberately not been addressive to Glenn Greenwald's question of specifically how what Risen wrote "aided" the terrorists.
Try reading for content.
I told you point by point what Risen told the enemy and why it was incredibly damaging to our war effort.
My feeling is that if you're smart enough to build a homemade bomb, you're smart enough to know that there are forces of authority that will be looking for you, via any means possible.
You are moving from inane to facile.
To be clear, you appear to be repeating the same sorry excuse offered by the press for their criminal wrongdoing - We didn't damage national security because al Qaeda must have been aware that we were tapping their phones.
The enemy had no reason to believe that we were tapping their phones.
1) They probably switched their cell phones and swept their land lines routinely to defeat physical bugs. However, such methods would not have revealed the NSA program which listened in at the communications hubs in the US and maybe also overseas. Thus, the enemy probably thought he was operating without surveillance.
2) To the extent that they even thought about surveillance long the entire line, the enemy almost certainly did not know that their overseas to overseas calls ran through the US where we could get to them. You have to realize that the vast majority of this program is directed overseas. It is doubtful that very many al Qaeda still exist in this country after we deported hundreds of illegal alien muslims after 9/11. The vast majority of our captures have been in the ME. The jihadis had no idea that their calls in the ME were being routed through the Great Satan.
3) The proof of the pudding that al Qaeda did not assume their phones were being surveilled and continued to operate in the open is that the NSA program identifies at least 10 al Qaeda targets in the US every year for which the FBI is able to develop probable cause to gain FISA search warrants. There are probably far more identified overseas.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThe press are not a "constitutionally protected occupation." They have no more right to speech than you or I.
There is no First Amendment right to reveal secrets to the enemy - period.
Anonymous writes a thoughtful post:
ReplyDeletet is best to ignore anyone who compares anyone to Hitler. Either the comparison is inapt or historically inaccurate.
True. Unfortunately, in his zeal to posture himself a righteous anti-Nazi, he missed my point entirely.
Mark Steyn has written a Terrific Piece regarding the demographic crisis facing Europe. I urge our young anti-Nazi to pay close attention to Steyn's observations. His overweening self-righteousness notwithstanding, his nation and culture are in precipitous decline, and unless a drastic change occurs in the Dutch birthrate, their attitudes toward abortion and euthanasia, and the amount of work they do during their lifetimes, they will simply disappear into the new continent of Eurabia sometime within the next fifty years.
Now...to address one of your (well-articulated) points:
As I read this [the First Amendment] protects only one institution, the church, and only one occupation, the press. It does not expressly or implicitly state that any other occupation, which might make easier the realization of the other rights therein protected, is free from governmental or state oversight.
I read it differently. No institutions at all are mentioned in the amendment, only rights and the prohibition of Congress from enacting any laws against them. There is no mention of any church, the press, or...institutions by which citizens petition their government for a redress of their grievances. Any attempt of the government to restrict the establishment an institutions to promulgate one of those enumerated rights (a church, a newspaper, or a lobbying company, for instance) is sure to be held unconstitutional.
In the case of the wiretaps, it seems to me, in any event, that the NYT acted responsibly and patriotically.
Well, I disagree strongly. I believe the NY Times acted irresponsibly, quite possibly out of pure malice toward George Bush and his administration. In doing so they have put themselves into serious legal jeopardy, and even worse, may have given aid and comfort to the mortal enemies of the United States. If this proves true, those responsible will go to prison, quite possibly for a very long time.
cannot believe that someone as interested in the good of the Republic, as you seem to be, could actually support any American government's freedom of its citizens proper oversight.
I am militant in my support of a free press. However, I am also militant in my desire to protect this great nation from its mortal enemies. There are some things more important than unrestricted free speech. In this case, (The NY Times publishing details of the NSA program), time will tell whether they crossed the line from conducting government "oversight" to aiding an enemy whose agenda is the violent destruction of the very government that protects their right to conduct oversight.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: The right of the people to petition is their right; you have no right make a living doing it...
So, the right of the people to engage in "free speech" is the "their right" and you have no right making a living at it?? I suspect "Pinch" Sulzberger might take issue with this fantastic and ridiculous statement.
Ummm, I pointed out that the press is a separate and different institution in the First Amendment. Sorry to see that you either didn't understand that or chose to ignore it.
But, let's get back on track, eh? Let's say you wanted to set up your own radio station so you could be a (commercial) "vessel" for people to express their own "free speech rights". Or say you wanted to set up your own phone company for the same "purpose". Can the feds license you? Tax you? Prohibit you from even going on air without a license? You know, I think you're clueless as to First Amendment law....
[Arne]: If you're engaged in interstate commerce here, they could tax the bejeezuz out of you, make you get a license, or prohibit your profession outright.
For that to happen the meaning of the words "Congress shall make no law" would have to substantially change, a development I suspect is more than a little unlikely.
Huh? Utter nonsense, as just the examples I've given indicate.
[Arne]: But that's who Schoenfeld pretends is doing a job as important as journalism???
Well, given the unambiguous words of the first amendment, where "free speech" and "right to petition" are in the same paragraph (right under the "Congress shall make no law prohibiting" part), the relative importance of each is not articulated with any specificity that I can discern. In that respect I can see Schoenfeld's point.
ROFLMAO. Tell you what, Gedaliya: I want to see you out picketing in front of the Supreme Court building with big signs saying "Freedom Of Lobbying Shall Not Be Infringed! Free Jack Abramoff!".... A better image for today's Republican party I cannot think of..... Hop to it, my man!
But in passing, I'd note that you ignored my comment that what the AIPAC folks were doing had nuttin' to do with lobbying in the first place, so even were this cockamamie "freedom to lobby" enshrined in the First Amendment, it would be nonetheless irrelevant....
Cheers,
bart:
ReplyDeleteSorry. Still inane. Let's deconstruct, shall we:
"There is no comparison whatsoever between a classified signals intelligence program being used against an enemy during a time of war..."
"Classified signals intelligence program"? Oh. You mean WIRETAPPING. It sounds so much more like a top-secret military development, shrouded in national security, when you use such highfalutin' terminology.
Oh, and one other thing. We will have to agree to disagree that this "program" was limited to "the terrorists". You, bart, may very well be willing to let George W. Bush's people spy on all Americans, and just trust our beloved preznit to do the right thing and use the information wisely, and only against swarthy bomb-making Al Qaida types. Bully for you.
"Try reading for content.
"I told you point by point what Risen told the enemy and why it was incredibly damaging to our war effort."
No, sweetie, what you did was the equivalent of a "document dump".
Try not to bullshit a bullshitter, willya please; you put out a p.r.-worthy synopsis of the anecdotes in Risen's book, without printing one syllable of how any of those anecdotes "aided" Al Qaida (again, Greenwald's original challenge to you), short of claiming that the bad guys could not have possibly figured out that we might actually be attempting to gain on them, absent discovering the contents of Risen's book and the New York Times.
Further, you endorsed that other idiot's earlier "document dump", when he reprinted the Espionage Act of 1917. Nowhere did either of you apologists explain how the language of that law encompassed protecting the president from breaking the law, as long as he christened his lawbreaking "national security".
That broken law, in point of fact, was quite specifically written to address how to maintain your vaunted "national security", and still adhere to the principles in the Bill Of Rights. And it worked perfectly fine by all accounts, until George W. Bush and Alberto Gonzales put forth the proposition that a "unitary president" could pretty much do any damned thing he wanted.
A principle, I might add, found nowhere (implicit or explicit) in the Espionage Act of 1917.
By the way, this is not "a time of war". My president paid good money for a great big banner, which he hung on an aircraft carrier, as he spoke to the American people telling them that major combat operations in Iraq had ended and that... here's your sign!.. "Mission Accomplished".
My God. The goddamned PRESIDENT told you the "war" was over. What, then, has killed over 2000 more helpless Americans (and Lord knows how many of Them)?
I confess, not a clue, myself. But the "war", as I was led to understand it, ended years ago. Unless of course you're doubting MY president (now, if you'd like to start referring to it as a "perpetual police action", maybe we'd have common ground, here...)
"You are moving from inane to facile.
"To be clear, you appear to be repeating the same sorry excuse offered by the press for their criminal wrongdoing - We didn't damage national security because al Qaeda must have been aware that we were tapping their phones.
"The enemy had no reason to believe that we were tapping their phones...."
Okayyyyy, that's it, check please, I'm outta here. I need to get back to my "facile" life, now.
I'm perfectly content to let you bask in the belief that you're absolutely right; Al Qaida had no clue that we'd actually be looking for them, by any means... including wiretapping, a technique you can see in any 1930's gumshoe movie...
"Allah be praised, Al-Musab! They are actually tapping our phones! Had we known that these American dogs would stoop this low, my Cingular bill would not be so onerously high!"
Inane and DENSE.
Bart said:
ReplyDeleteReally?
You will have to work to find anyone in Congress who does not agree with the President and supports this program.
Arlen Specter
Edward Kennedy
Joseph Biden
Russ Feingold
Charles Schumer
Patrick Leahy
Diane Feinstein
Richard Durbin
Lindsey Grahm
And even Mike Dewine said that legislation should be introduced to make the program legal
A quick thought:
ReplyDeleteThese righties believe that the press has the right to publish any OPINION, no matter how stupid: cartoons, essays, reality shows, or other blather... but that FACTS need to be controlled and doled out only as neccessary and helpful.
It's so paternal I want to spit.
bart:
ReplyDelete[Bart]: In this case, the NYT reporter and his editors were told a year before publication about the importance and extreme confidentiality of the NSA program....
[Arne]: No. The maladministration asserted that this program was of importance and extreme confidentiality. There's a difference.
Really?
Yes.
You will have to work to find anyone in Congress who does not agree with the President and supports this program.
ROFLMAO. You're delusional, IC....
[Bart]: ... The President himself pleaded with them not to disclose this program to the enemy.
[Arne]: You misspelled "public".
The fact that you coflate al Qaeda with the American public says it all...
Nope. Just calls 'em as I sees 'em.... The maladministration didn't want this public ... not because they thought that al Qaeda might worry that warrants weren't being sought (either before or after the snoops), but rather because the maladministration knew it was quite clearly violating the law, and they knew there would be a public outcry (which there was) if the program was known.
You're still trying to pawn off the ridiculous tale that al Qaeda forgot that the U.S. snoops, and was engaging in in conversations freely, secure in the knowledge that the U.S. gummint would have to get a FISA warrant (even ex post facto) to listen in on them. No one believes this transparent folderol as being anything other than a lame attempt --- ex post facto -- to "justify" an illegal gummint program.
Cheers,
gedaliya
ReplyDeleteYou write:
I read [the 1st Amendment] differently. No institutions at all are mentioned in the amendment . . .
You are correct that the church is not mention explicitly; I would argue that it is implicit in catagoric rejection of interference in matters religious. The state could not, on my understanding, insist that all churches be shorn of icons or such like. But, if I am wrong, please explain.
The "press," however, is clearly mentioned. This was and is an insitution and an occupation, no?
Or do you mean that only the right to use a printing press was here protected? Even so, or so it seems to me, the prohibition against legislative interference with the press, would seem to preclude legal action against the NYT because it provided information on an administration's policies.
You also write:
". . . I am also militant in my desire to protect this great nation from its mortal enemies. . . . In this case, (The NY Times publishing details of the NSA program), time will tell whether they crossed the line from conducting government "oversight" to aiding an enemy whose agenda is the violent destruction of the very government that protects their right to conduct oversight."
I disagree. I did not intend to argue that the NYT, or any paper, functions as a watchdog, or has oversight responsibilities; it was my intention to argue that it has the absolute right to print for public consumption all state or govermental actions so that the citizens can decide to continue, condition, or withdraw their support. It has not, obviously, the right to misreprent those actions. In this, or so I read in the paper, no one denies that the wiretapping occurred in the manner that the NYT reported.
I am not convinced that exposing this particular act, the wiretapping, gave aid and support to America's various enemies. I am convinced, and would instance this exchange as evidence, that knowledge of the event provided an opportunity for informed and (by and large) thoughtful citizens to engage in a prolonged debate about these specific issues and the larger event of which they are a part.
From my perspective, it this very occurance that the 1st Amendment seeks to protect. Our right to be informed by a press unfettered by state or governmental oversight in order that we can suss out the appropriateness of its actions in the light of reason and in the course of an open debate.
In other words, transparency trumps allegations of the necessity of security.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Well its "interesting" when the kids plug the toilet with their action figures too (know I should not have boughty that toy chimp in a flight suit!)
Actually, I never found that "interesting" and still don't.
his "debates" and "intellectual arguments" are not much different than a plugged toilet, and a lot
less honest too"
Ihave to disagree with you here. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't make their argument automatically intelectually dishonest to me. In fact I found the paper that Schonfeld wrote interesting even though I eventually disagreed with his conclusions for reasons I argued in another post. The one in particular that provoked some thought was on the last page and involved microdots.
But hey that is just me, everyone is different
Bart sez [WRT the "damage" caused by the disclosure of the warrantless NSA snoops]:
ReplyDelete2) The publicly unknown technical fact that nearly all of the world's electronic communications run through hubs inside of or otherwise controlled by the United States. This was maybe the worst of the disclosures. Your average Jihadi had no idea that when he called from Pakistan to Saudi, that his call was being routed through US territory and companies.
ROFLMAO. You need to read up a bit. This information has been published for many years in such books as "The Puzzle Palace" and "Body of Secrets", and the information is widely available on the web. As Bamford's latest book reveals, bin Laden stopped using a satellite phone after a training camp was targeted by a cruise missile. And that was some time ago. The technology and the capability is no secret. The only thing that wasn't known was that the NSA was doing so without a warrant. But that's no comfort to people who have no idea of whether there's an official-stamped warrant (even after the fact) on the snoop.
Cheers,
Barry Champlain said...
ReplyDeletebart:
Sorry. Still inane. Let's deconstruct, shall we:
"Deconstruct" is lefty speak for spinning the facts...
Away we go!
Bart: "There is no comparison whatsoever between a classified signals intelligence program being used against an enemy during a time of war..."
"Classified signals intelligence program"? Oh. You mean WIRETAPPING. It sounds so much more like a top-secret military development, shrouded in national security, when you use such highfalutin' terminology.
Being snide doesn't change the facts. Signals intelligence covers intercepting any form of electronic communications. We are in a war. Use the military terms.
Oh, and one other thing. We will have to agree to disagree that this "program" was limited to "the terrorists"
Don't put words in my mouth.
I have been very careful to describe the program exactly the way it was disclosed by the NYT and later confirmed by the WH. The NSA is tracking international calls to and from captured al Qaeda telephone numbers. Until we listen in, we have no idea to whom those numbers belong. Therfore, the program is targeting al Qaeda but may sweep up uninvolved people which are communicating with these al Qaeda numbers for innocent reasons.
"Bart: Try reading for content. I told you point by point what Risen told the enemy and why it was incredibly damaging to our war effort."
No, sweetie, what you did was the equivalent of a "document dump". Try not to bullshit a bullshitter, willya please...
I didn't post a single document. I gave you a link to the key pages from the Risen book. Try reading them. It should take about ten minutes.
When this defense attorney wants to do a "document dump, you will get the equivalent of thousands of documents, most unrelated to the issues at hand in the case.
you put out a p.r.-worthy synopsis of the anecdotes in Risen's book, without printing one syllable of how any of those anecdotes "aided" Al Qaida
Incredible. I spent two long posts trying to explain just that. They were written in lay langauge at about a 9th grade comprehension level. Hopefully, Glenn has better comprehension skills.
Further, you endorsed that other idiot's earlier "document dump", when he reprinted the Espionage Act of 1917. Nowhere did either of you apologists explain how the language of that law encompassed protecting the president from breaking the law, as long as he christened his lawbreaking "national security".
:::sigh:::
I am at work and have only taken the time to respond to posts which mentioned me by name. I didn't read the other post. If you read my posts in response to you, you would know that I didn't even begin to address why Risen & NYT could be liable under the Espionage Act. I posted that last week in response to another one of Glenn's blogs.
If you want a good run down of the law, go to the Slate articles linked by Glenn and then go to the Commentary article cited by Slate.
Bart: "The enemy had no reason to believe that we were tapping their phones...."
Okayyyyy, that's it, check please, I'm outta here. I need to get back to my "facile" life, now.
I'm perfectly content to let you bask in the belief that you're absolutely right; Al Qaida had no clue that we'd actually be looking for them, by any means... including wiretapping, a technique you can see in any 1930's gumshoe movie...
You have been outta here from the beginning.
If your knowledge of this program begins and ands with a Sam Spade novel, there is no use continuing this one sided conversation.
BTW, deconstruction requires that you actually address the arguments which I made to prove the point.
What you are doing is avoiding the subject and then playing the name calling game.
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"The enemy had no reason to believe that we were tapping their phones.
1) They probably switched their cell phones and swept their land lines routinely to defeat physical bugs. However, such methods would not have revealed the NSA program which listened in at the communications hubs in the US and maybe also overseas. Thus, the enemy probably thought he was operating without surveillance."
I sincerely doubt that anyone who is being attacked by unmanned drones at their dinner parties belives that they are not being listened to when they use their cell phones in the open annd clear (not scrambled). There is adequate indication of this by the fact that Al Qaida did in fact quit using their satellite phones when they found out they were being listened to.
Telling Al Qaida that their open and in the clear cell phone conversations are being listened to is akin to telling them that if they drive at night with their lights on that others will be able to see their vehicle.
If Al Qaida were scrambling their phone calls and the media were to report that the NSA was listening in and could decipher the calls. And then quoted verbatim calls that had been made thereby leaving no doubt you would have a valid argument. But there is no indication of that.
arne langsetmo writes:
ReplyDeleteCan the feds license you?
Of course. But they cannot set the license fees so high that it prevents you from setting up your radio station.
Moreover, the feds can regulate your speech. They can prevent you (in some cases) from using obscenities on the air, and certainly from inciting riots, etc. But what they cannot do, is pass a law making it a crime to own a radio station, or a newspaper, or...a lobbying company.
That's the point Schoenfeld made, and the point you seem unable to grasp.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteBart said: You will have to work to find anyone in Congress who does not agree with the President and supports this program.
Arlen Specter
Edward Kennedy
Joseph Biden
Russ Feingold
Charles Schumer
Patrick Leahy
Diane Feinstein
Richard Durbin
Lindsey Graham
I believe everyone on your list except for Feingold and maybe Kennedy supports the program and amending FISA to ratify it.
And even Mike Dewine said that legislation should be introduced to make the program legal
Mike Dewine is drafting legislation to exclude surveillance on international communications from FISA warrant requirements and reaffirming that Congress can oversee the program.
The WH is basically supporting this legislation because is changes nothing and simply ratifies the President's Article II authority.
I expect a version of this bill to pass just before the elections this year with most of the people on your list above voting for it.
Hey Bart, why so modest? WHY NOT ITALICIZE AND PUT YOUR COMMENTS IN FULL CAPS ALONG WITH BOLDING THEM you arrogant windbag?
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart sez: The publicly unknown technical fact that nearly all of the world's electronic communications run through hubs inside of or otherwise controlled by the United States. This was maybe the worst of the disclosures. Your average Jihadi had no idea that when he called from Pakistan to Saudi, that his call was being routed through US territory and companies.
The technology and the capability is no secret. The only thing that wasn't known was that the NSA was doing so without a warrant.
Darn! And Risen thought he had a scoop...
Then you will have no trouble providing me with a link to some other public source which discloses what Risen disclosed in the book pages to which I linked.
As Bamford's latest book reveals, bin Laden stopped using a satellite phone after a training camp was targeted by a cruise missile. And that was some time ago.
bin Laden got rid of his satellite phone when it became public knowledge through various media sources. That had nothing at all to do with his knowledge of the routing of al Qaeda's electronic communications through the US.
The fact that we had been identifying al Qaeda targets with this NSA program is the best proof that the enemy had no idea they were being surveilled in this manner until the Risen article and book.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteBart said:"The enemy had no reason to believe that we were tapping their phones....They probably switched their cell phones and swept their land lines routinely to defeat physical bugs. However, such methods would not have revealed the NSA program which listened in at the communications hubs in the US and maybe also overseas. Thus, the enemy probably thought he was operating without surveillance."
I sincerely doubt that anyone who is being attacked by unmanned drones at their dinner parties belives that they are not being listened to when they use their cell phones in the open annd clear (not scrambled).
Cell phones and landlines do not exist in the mountain areas of Pakistan where we killed al Qaeda's chemical expert, but missed Zawahiri. We found out about that meeting through an informant.
You can't let the enemy know how you are finding them. Let them guess where their security has been breached.
There is adequate indication of this by the fact that Al Qaida did in fact quit using their satellite phones when they found out they were being listened to.
bin Laden got rid of his satellite phone when it became public knowledge.
Telling Al Qaida that their open and in the clear cell phone conversations are being listened to is akin to telling them that if they drive at night with their lights on that others will be able to see their vehicle.
And yet we have been intercepting their calls anyway since this program started...
Bart:
ReplyDelete3) The United States arrangement with several telecom companies to intercept enemy telecommunications through these hubs. This was an enormous intelligence lapse because al Qaeda was probably sweeping its telecommunications for bugs, determining that they were clean and thinking that they were operating in the clear.
Oh, nonsense. You haven't a clue about electronic surveillance in the modern age, do you? It's well known to anyone that wants to find out how snoops are done in the era of cellular communications/IP. The ol' "man on the pole" disappeared a long time ago .... and this is even true of land-line snoops; it's far more convenient for the gummint to bring a court order into the legal office of a telco, and ask them to put in the tap (not to mention this capability is required under the CALEA Act). "[S]weeping ... for bugs" is useless when you're using a phone nowadays.
Cheers,
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHey Bart, why so modest? WHY NOT ITALICIZE AND PUT YOUR COMMENTS IN FULL CAPS ALONG WITH BOLDING THEM you arrogant windbag
I tried alternating italics with standard print and found there was very little difference between the two. I literally got a headache trying to read the result. The contrast between italics and bold is much easier to read...
Forgive an middle aged man's failing eyes
Bart:
ReplyDeleteAbout the best defence to the charge that al Qaeda has somehow benefitted form the knowledge is to ask how, if one were al Qaeda, one might respond to the information disclosed. Knowing that you -- as an al Qaeda operative -- might be surveilled without a warrant being issued even ex post facto, how would you modify your behaviour? How would such a revelation help you? How would it give you comfort?
Cheers,
Bart:
ReplyDeleteThe jihadis had no idea that their calls in the ME were being routed through the Great Satan.
They aren't. I can tell you that. I work in telecomm, and know this is just plain false.
Cheers,
Surprise. I have decided that for the rest of today, I will no longer address comments made by paid plants, or plants with a vested interest in neocon policy (you know, I've said this twice before, already, and I can't seem to evoke a outraged, sputtering denial from either of our two heroes du jour. Damn. Must be slipping...). No, everyone else seems to be waving the flag for common sense admirably.
ReplyDeleteI just want to interject one point, and that is that I really don't believe, if you wake the Bush people up at 3:30 in the morning and demand an instant answer, that they honestly think they'll be sending James Risen or Bill Keller to jail, in this lifetime.
This is simply pushback. If editorialists and pundits and bloggers are kept busy, hotly debating whether the press should go to jail for outing the president's repeated and deliberate crime against FISA law... there will be less attention paid, after individual members of Congress can have their arms twisted, and this new "anti-FISA" law can be passed.
That law, of course, will not merely exonerate the White House tyrant retroactively for his deliberate and repeated crime ("... and ah'll do it agin'!"), but it will CODIFY the president's nebulous privilege, currently being spun by Gonzales and the like, that the president is exempt from the rule of law.
The press will be too busy worrying if its ass is going to Leavenworth, to want to give too much space and airtime to what amounts to the "unitary president" law.
Rove and company have decided that you can either "work the refs"... or you can threaten to make their children's daddies disappear, if push comes to shove.
Would it ever really happen? Nah. Never get a conviction, and they know this. But Rove accomplishes the same thing, either way.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart:
About the best defence to the charge that al Qaeda has somehow benefitted form the knowledge is to ask how, if one were al Qaeda, one might respond to the information disclosed. Knowing that you -- as an al Qaeda operative -- might be surveilled without a warrant being issued even ex post facto, how would you modify your behaviour? How would such a revelation help you? How would it give you comfort?
Very reasonable question...
1) Continue to use telephones and computers to communicate, but change your communications so they will not be intercepted by a data mining program.
It has been suggested that the enemy might encryot their calls. This will keep us from knowing what was being said, but bring a great deal of attention to the telephone numbers which started using encryption.
The data mining is based on our computers picking up jihadist phrases or mentions of landmarks. The enemy should use plain colloquial language and avoid the phrases which might trigger the data mining program.
2) Use these communications to pass disinformation and lead the US on wild goose chases. Let people be captured with real phone numbers which are only used for disinformation. Have those communications draw US attention to bogus operations or even to your enemies.
3) Shift to alternate means of communications. One time use cell phone numbers on each end comes to mind. Overnight mail gives you near immediacy and nearly complete security. I am sure the inventive minds here can come up with other options.
Gedaliya:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Can the feds license you?
Of course. But they cannot set the license fees so high that it prevents you from setting up your radio station.
They don't even have to give you a license at any cost, ferchrissakes! But, yes, they could charge you whatever they wanted.
Moreover, the feds can regulate your speech. They can prevent you (in some cases) from using obscenities on the air, and certainly from inciting riots, etc.
Subject for another time. But glad you concede the larger point.
But what they cannot do, is pass a law making it a crime to own a radio station, or a newspaper, or...a lobbying company.
Why "crime"? They can surely make such illegal, but they don't have to impose criminal sanctions. For instance, there's rules on ownership of multiple radio and newspaper stations in the same market. Violate the rules, and you may be forced to sell your businesses. There may even be rules as to who may own radio stations to begin with.
That's the point Schoenfeld made, and the point you seem unable to grasp.
Oh, nonsense. Schoenfeld made no such point. You're making that point for him, and unjustifiably so. But tell me, what does that have to do with handing over secrets to the Israelis? Let's say I'm a priest, and have some protections for my professional activities thanks to the First Amendment. Does that mean I get to rape little kids???
You still ignore that more salient point WRT Schoenfeld's claim of "freedom of lobbying" defence for the AIPAC folks....
Face it, Schoenfeld's faux "equivalence" of the AIPAC spies with the N.Y. Times (based on a bizarre "right to lobby") just doesn't fly.
Cheers,
Bart:
ReplyDelete[ignoring your ignorant comments about the state of knowledge on surveillance capabilities; go read Bamford or just Google "Echelon" and "Carnivore"]
The fact that we had been identifying al Qaeda targets with this NSA program is the best proof that the enemy had no idea they were being surveilled in this manner until the Risen article and book.
As the Times reported, the FBI got real tired of wasting resources running down dead ends. The claim that actual al Qaeda targets had been identified requires that you trust the crapola the maladministration has been spewing ("You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie." ... "He [Saddam] wouldn't let them [the weapons inspectors] in."). But nonetheless, even if some al Qaeda targets had been identified, that hardly means that they wouldn't have been identified had the law (i.e., the FISA procedures) been followed. There's your biggest mistake. No one is calling for repeal of the FISA laws; they just want the gummint to follow the law!!!
Cheers,
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"You can't let the enemy know how you are finding them. Let them guess where their security has been breached."
FYI the NYT times didn't release information that the NSA was tapping trunk lines. So should you be prosecuted for releasing that information here?
Just kidding it was released publicly elsewhere but the NYT didn't do it in their original article.
"bin Laden got rid of his satellite phone when it became public knowledge.
And yet we have been intercepting their calls anyway since this program started..."
Which indicates that they are aware of it and are unconcerned by it, especially since it is still occuring after the NYT article became public.
There is even a possibility that they could attempt to use it as a dis-information campaign now since they would know that they are being listened to but yet still using it.
I am always interested to listen to what anyone has to say and willing to consider points of view other than my own if they are legitimate. I would suggest though that you would do yourself a service to fact check yourself better on occasion before posting. If you don't want to I still support your right to free speech and to post what you want to but I think you do yourself a disservice my not being more rigorous in this aspect of your posts.