We are beginning our state-based NSA campaign today by targeting six or seven of the most important newspapers in Kansas, to which the individuals who are participating will submit Op-Ed pieces and Letters to the Editor (everyone is still encouraged to participate). The principal goal is to urge an investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee and its Chairman, Sen. Pat Roberts, into the NSA scandal. A little bit later today, Jane Hamsher will post details about the logistics and information for submissions, and I will provide the link here when her post is available (update: link is furnished below in the Update section).
The letters and editorials should be individually formulated and expressed (and also should bear a Kansas address), but, to ensure that we have a clear and focused message, the following points can be emphasized by those writing letters and Op-Ed pieces (if there are any suggested additions or revisions, please leave them in Comments):
- Independent of one’s political party, it is vitally important that Congress, and specifically the Senate Intelligence Committee, fulfill its important oversight duties by holding hearings on the scope and reach of the Administration’s warrantless NSA eavesdropping on American citizens. Americans deserve an investigation by our Congress into this eavesdropping, which took place without any oversight, so that we are informed about what our government did and can make reasoned judgments about these important issues.
- Concern over the legality and necessity of warrantless eavesdropping on Americans cuts across party and ideological lines. Numerous prominent conservatives -- including Grover Norquist, George Will, former Rep. Bob Barr, and Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback –- have expressed serious objections to the notion that the Government should eavesdrop on American citizens without any oversight at all. The conflicts raised by warrantless eavesdropping are not partisan or ideological, but instead, implicate the most important constitutional safeguards on which our system of government is based.
- We all favor strong and aggressive eavesdropping against terrorists. The question which requires Congressional scrutiny is why the Administration eavesdropped without the judicial oversight which the American people, through our Congress, required by law. The purpose of this law was to ensure that the Government cannot abuse its eavesdropping powers (as it has in the past) when eavesdropping on American citizens. Because the Administration eavesdropped without this judicial oversight, only Congressional hearings can enable Americans to learn whether the eavesdropping was properly conducted.
- Regardless of one’s political orientation, the NSA program has provoked intense controversy among Americans. Recent polls show that half of all Americans believe that the program violates the law and is wrong. Thus, on a matter of such importance which is dividing our country, both sides in the debate would be well-served by bringing facts to light, a result which can be achieved only if the Senate Intelligence Committee holds hearings on these matters.
- As demonstrated by this week’s controversy over President Bush’s decision to turn operations of some of this country’s most important ports over to the United Arab Emirates, Congress has a critically important role to play in exercising oversight over the Executive branch, even in areas of national security. Our nation was founded on a system of checks and balances because even well-intentioned political officials are prone to errors in judgment.
By ensuring that the branches of Government oversee and check one another, our Founders created a system where errors in judgment and abuses are minimized. Particularly on matters as important as defending our country from terrorist threats and eavesdropping on Americans by the government, those core American principles compel oversight and hearings by our Congress.
- Numerous Republicans and Democrats have called for the Senate Intelligence Committee to hold hearings. Sen. Roberts made public commitments to hold such hearings, which can be structured so as to prevent disclosure of operational details which should remain secret. The American people are entitled to be informed about these matters, and we urge Sen. Roberts to fulfill his duties of Congressional oversight and hold meaningful hearings on this matter.
UPDATE: Jane has now posted the contact information for Op-Eds and Letters to the Editor here. It was compiled by the tireless Thersites at Vichy Democrats, who has some more thoughts here. Right-wing radio expert Taylor Marsh has some creative ideas about how to use the Portgate controversy to make these NSA points more effectively, particularly when calling into talk radio.
Finally, in response to some (understandable and common but, in my view, ultimately misguided and quite harmful) scepticism about campaigns such as this, I explain my reasons here why I think projects like this one are worthwhile despite the obvious obstacles.
UPDATE II: Josh Rosenau is a Kansan blogger and a graduate student at the University of Kansas. He has some excellent thoughts that really are worth reading on the NSA scandal generally, along with suggestions for which newspapers to contact and some additional ideas about how to make these points effectively. He also says this:
If you've moved out of Kansas, but want to write to the local paper where you used to live, that's just fine. Mention where you used to be. If you aren't from Kansas and don't want to be left out, either write to your own local paper, or think creatively about a connection you have to Kansas.
Josh makes an important point. What matters is not necessarily that you live in Kansas right this minute, but that there be some Kansas connection, such as a Kansas address, reflected in the letters and Op-Ed pieces.
Very well stated. I think by confining it just to asking for an investigation at this point, we should be able to get it. And emphasizing that this cuts across ideological lines, showing the conservative opposition, etc., is so important.
ReplyDeleteWell - I just heard that they are going to have a Rovian "Vote against Gay Adoption" measure on the ballet for the 2006 Election.
ReplyDeleteBLEH!
Anything (yet again) as a wedge-issue to get the *BASE* out to vote in strong numbers. These folks may not give a shit about the Candidates, or KNOW the Important Stuff they are For/Against - BUT they will DAMN-well come out to vote against Gay-Adoption! By GUM! (And the vote for the GOPer who's run a few Bazillion info-mercials on this Topic.)
And evah notice how the Gee Whiz's nick name for his supporters is the SAME as Ole Osama? The Base. (Al Qaeda means *The Base*) No coincidences there.
But what to do about this *Drum Up the Conservative Vote* on these faux "Crisis in the Community" issues - They will play this as often as they can - eeking out a wedge issue for every election to keep their conservative voter turn-out high.
We do need the younger generation - who are going to be left with the results of their own voter-apathy - to step up! As well as Those Silent Majority & Remorse Bush-Buyers to COME OUT and VOTE!
(And it's not these readers - merely by being HERE, You are the folks who CARE and are informed and concerned...but we need the others too.)
Hi Glenn, First I'm sorry I had deleting doubts. I'd read about it but never been eaten by blogger.
ReplyDeleteAre you ready? Apparently once a recluse starts speaking you can't shut her up:)
I'm so happy you and Jane are getting busy. Letters to editors. Yes, let's make it work this time. I don't want to dampen that effort just add to it. Because haven't many people been writing to the state owned press for some time now? People are dying and we're penning missives?!
So do you think some of these letters might contain the word impeach? Oh so politely, of course. You know, our fab founding fathers' recourse given to the people?
The polls are showing extreme disapproval of the regime (that discontented winter thing) and the NSA programs(s) breaking the FISA law has finally woken many more people to demand accountability. Can we please impeach them now?!
While we demand hearings and investigations could we at least be given the hope that they are leading to impeachment?
After the nukes go off will we be asking from inside a detention center why did we wait? Why did we think impeachment would be so bad? Who was it we didn't want to offend? Who was the GD almighty Dem who said wait?
Sadly in this land I love this is not an alarmist opinion.
Take care, Jan
Shouldn't people from other states be able to write to KS papers as well? It should be a different theme: something to the effect of "I don't live in Kansas and am not a constituent of Sen. Roberts. However, I feel strongly about this issue and am basically at the mercy of the discretion of Sen Roberts, since he chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee. I am a registered [Democrat][Republican][Independent] but feel this issue is significant above and beyond partisan politics. Etc.
ReplyDeleteThen incorporate the points made by Glenn.
Nice work. Very minor quibble: On the "Concern over the legality and necessity" graf, would like to see more emphasis on legality. Not only have prominent conservatives questioned the program, prominent legal scholars (including conservative legal scholars) have questioned the legality and/or constitutionality of the program.
ReplyDeleteOh MY- *snarky* as this may be -
ReplyDeleteMaybe we need a Get out the Voter Poster Campaign with some photogenic (and not-photogenic) 18-30 somethings with a caption Like:
The FEW, The PROUD, The APATHETIC!
Or a *Purple Finger* policy like in Iraq and Afghanistan so you Can Proudly Demonstrate to the World that YOU VOTED! (Our voter turnout is one of the worst in the world.)
It could be just like the Catholics with "Ash Wednesday" - proudly wearing their ash-crosses on their foreheads. Or like the KOOL Sponge-Bob stickers for children who get their Vaccinations! --
A Purple "I VOTED" Finger!
But it is TIME to encourage these folks to VOTE and make a difference.
Here is a must Read especially for you bush cult members:
ReplyDeleteTop neocon says movement a failure,
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=266122006&format=print
You can file it under "duhhh" or "we told you so, morons"
Don't expect anything from Roberts. He's been shilling for Bush for a good while now.
ReplyDeletehttp://rawstory.com/robertsintel.htm
well if FDL and some of the "superblogs" are involved with this project -- are you asking for snarky, condenscending letters that proclaim that certain "blogging greats" have all the answers and that no one can possibly disagree without being flamed, insulted, "trexed" or banned?
ReplyDeleteDo you want the letters to ooze "self-importance" and encourage group-think?
She we each declare that WE, as individuals, know so much more than anyone else that there is no reason to think or question any ideas?
Should we speculate endlessly, like somehow we had "special insight," - even if we are consistently wrong?
Should we, like atrios, fdl, americablog, crooksandliars, talk down to those morons in kansas and make it clear that if they would just do what we say; everything would be "perfect"
Is this the time we should advocate turning the democratic party over to a "corporate" model?
Should we, like atrios, fdl, americablog, crooksandliars, talk down to those morons in kansas and make it clear that if they would just do what we say; everything would be "perfect"
ReplyDeleteTo a good extent I share your opinion of these blogs. However, nothing in Glenn's post would suggest such an approach, and his bulletted points speak for themselves. Taken together they are a sensible and sound strategy which would be wise to follow.
Bush's NSA illegal wiretapping is a crucially important matter, and whatever issues one may have with this or that blogger involved in the fight are quite trivial in comparison.
In crafting a campaign to influence Sen. Pat Roberts, there is something that needs to be considered, that I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere (except my comment at Washington Monthly a few weeks ago).
ReplyDeletePat Roberts appears to have Alzheimer’s desease. I base this on his Meet the Press appearance on 2/12/06 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11272634/). His statements were disingenuous and somewhat incoherent. First, he had very different recollections of the secret briefings to congressional leadership. Then there was his confusion re: FISA’s emergency procedures allowing surveillance for 72 hours before a warrant is obtained. He still thinks the 72 hours is the delay before surveillance can begin.
REP. HARMAN: … [the president’s] the one who requested the 72-hour delay, longer than 24 hours, which had been the standard before. He requested that it extend to roving wiretaps and e-mails, all the modern communications methods. [snip]
MR. RUSSERT: Here’s where I’m confused, because...
SEN. ROBERTS: Actually, that’s not true, Tim. If you’ve got five days, eight days on one of the threats that we were briefed on, you’ve got to act within minutes and hours. If you have 10 dots here and you have 100 dots to get the full picture and you’re waiting days and you may be missing these communications, it may be too late.
Then comes the really telling exchange.
MR. RUSSERT: Then why not go to Congress and say that, and request a change in the statute that would allow this activity specifically? What’s the reluctance to go to Congress?
SEN. ROBERTS: I think that they do—I don’t know, this—I have some memory pills, [Sen. Roberts held up a prescription bottle] I think everybody here ought to take a memory pill every morning on the recollection of, you know, what really went on, because that’s not my recollection. My recollection was that we just sat there with the people who did the briefing, I’m not going to say who, and they said, “Do we need to change this law?” And we started to really figure out what jurisdiction, how we could change it, how we could streamline FISA, because it is outdated because of the time constraints and because of the stack of materials that they have at FISA. And don’t tell me that isn’t there, because I’ve just been there. OK? So here we have a situation where we need to change the FISA law, and everybody said, “Well, what jurisdiction is—and then you’re going to have to reveal the operational details.” [snip]
The only "memory pills" I'm aware of are used to treat Alzheimer’s desease. Now, having lost my step-mother to Alzheimer’s a year ago, I am very sympathetic to its sufferers. But I remember that the first thing to go in the progress of her desease was her judgment. In fact, Alzheimer’s is a desease whose primary symptoms, at least in the early stages, are poor judgment, deterioration of critical thinking skills, and lack of reliable memories. An awareness of Sen. Roberts’ condition is necessary in planning a strategy to affect his behavior.
I'm telling you Pat Roberts is a vassal of the President. If you want an investigation - he needs to be removed.
ReplyDeleteit's disappointing to see the usual high quality of this comments section debased today by some rather foolish remarks, but to try to accentuate the positive:
ReplyDeletejohn, i think you raise a good question, but sadly, i think if we start flooding Kansas newspapers with material from all around the country, the editors will smell a rat and print nothing. i think kansas return addresses (or, in a pinch, certain areas of missouri, like kansas city, that might regularly read Kansas papers) are critical to credibility.
The only "memory pills" I'm aware of are used to treat Alzheimer’s desease. Now, having lost my step-mother to Alzheimer’s a year ago, I am very sympathetic to its sufferers. But I remember that the first thing to go in the progress of her desease was her judgment. In fact, Alzheimer’s is a desease whose primary symptoms, at least in the early stages, are poor judgment, deterioration of critical thinking skills, and lack of reliable memories. An awareness of Sen. Roberts’ condition is necessary in planning a strategy to affect his behavior.
ReplyDeleteThat's really good advice - cater the campaign to Pat Roberts' Alzheimer's condition.
How do you suggest that be done? Hand out drool rags with the editorials? Begin by reminding him of his name and telling him who the President is?
Great advice.
I noticed that redstate doesn't like you, btw... if you feel like answering their arguments from here
ReplyDeleteI'm telling you Pat Roberts is a vassal of the President. If you want an investigation - he needs to be removed
ReplyDeleteRemoving Pat Roberts is not really a realistic alternative at the moment. I prefer to work towards goals which are achievable.
Political organizing is not really my area of expertise or something I necessarily even want to be doing - which is why Jane and others are managing the logistics and coordinating the implementation of all of this. At the same time, there is not much of a point in sitting around formulating great arguments about issues unless you take steps to ensure that they have an actual impact on the conversation that is taking place in a way that matters.
I don't see Representatives and Senators in this caricatured, monolithic way - that they are all devoid of anything human and driven only by the most cynical and base political calculations and nothing else. All of these people were something else before they went to Washington. They all have a desire to appear independent and fair-minded and dedicated to the principles of our country. Nobody wants to be depicted as a mindless tool and everyone is influenced by a whole range of factors. I believe, as a result, that most people are open to persuasion if it's crafted the right way.
The political tides are shifting some. Bush is on the verge of being a lame duck; his unpopularity is becoming more and more of an albatross; and I think many people in Congress are a little resentful over how they've been suppressed and treated the last 5 years and are looking for a way to vent some independence. In some ways, he is like the Wizard after the curtain has been pulled and he is standing there is his exposed, weakened state.
I'm not going to begin with the assumption that this is all useless and everyone with an (R) after their name are all just hopeless, corrupt shills who are insusceptible to being influenced by anything other than the most venal motives. If one believes that, it's basically tantamount to declaring inevitable defeat in advance, which is not something I think is warranted or productive, altough there are a lot of people (I believe a minority) who seem to find that option attractive.
There are lots of obstalces to winning which need to be overcome and lots of reasons why it's difficult. Most of us are aware of those obstalces and it does little good to sit around bemoaning them. I guess I prefer to try to find the ways that they can be overcome rather than constantly harping on the reasons they can't be.
All of these systems and patterns were erected by human beings, which means they can be torn down and replaced by other human beings just as easily as they were built.
George Will implicitly acknowledges Bushites aren't conservatives:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/oped/ci_3541803
Because the fantasy "conservative" he's describing is a rare creature.
I wonder sometimes about the effectiveness and the perceived credibility of blog campaigns, too. An additional approach may be to engage organizations that have intersecting concerns.
ReplyDeleteOne that comes to mind is the American Library Association, which has chapters in all states. This huge and well-organized group takes 1st Amendment and, since the Patriot Act, 4th Amendment issues very seriously.
An example of the impact librarians can have: After one e-mail sent by a librarian in NJ to a few ALA e-mail lists, enough librarians around the country were enraged and wrote Harper Collins, who decided after all, to publish one of Michael Moore's books.
Another anecdote: Newton library forces FBI to get warrant to seize computers. Don't mess with librarians ;-)
Other similar organizations who have all protested the Patriot Act are:
American Association of Law Libraries
American Association of University Professors
American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression
Association of American Publishers
Freedom to Read Foundation
PEN American Center
Just a thought...
Glenn writes: There are lots of obstalces to winning which need to be overcome and lots of reasons why it's difficult. Most of us are aware of those obstalces and it does little good to sit around bemoaning them. I guess I prefer to try to find the ways that they can be overcome rather than constantly harping on the reasons they can't be.
ReplyDeleteThis is a very important point, and I refuse to give into self-defeating cynicism. Some of the ideological company I travel in both online and in the real world is replete with Bush supporters, or at least with those who voted for him. It would not be accurate to gauge how all of them think based on the polarized blogosphere, where so many pro-Bush blogs refuse to concede that he is breaking the law.
The average person who may have voted for Bush is getting pretty disillusioned with his incompetence, and there has never before been a point where they are so willing to consider that he may be doing something very wrong. Approaching such people in a calm and reasoned manner absolutely can have results, and I say this from direct personal experience.
To concded defeat in advance, at this time of all times, would be folly.
GREAT! I hope you, Jane, and thersites will be clear about how people outside of Kansas can help, as the majority of readers are not from Kansas, but want to help.
ReplyDeletePlease get constant ("W is for Wiretap") of constant's pations onboard. This seems to be his sole focus, and he appears to have more information about this NSA spying matter than anyone else around, and is as tireless as you, Jane, and thersites.
Good luck with the project. Whatever criticisms of this effort may be around, they pale beside the importance of getting these hearings and investigations underway.
I wonder sometimes about the effectiveness and the perceived credibility of blog campaigns, too.
ReplyDeleteI agree that nationally organized, blog-based campaigns (or similar campaigns from Moveon.org) that direct throngs of people to cut and paste e-mails or read from scripts when making phone calls are of limited use.
That's why we are avoiding that. This is designed to activate people in their states to try to impact the conversation that is taking place in those states. The idea arose from that very potent Wichita Eagle Op-Ed a few days ago demanding that Pat Roberts exercise some independence and hold the WH accountable. It was just so clear that an editorial in his hometown paper like that is infinitely more potent than a similar editorial in the NY Times, and that led to the conclusion that local people writing unscripted, individualized Op-Eds and letters in their hometown papers (or calls to local radio) in these states would be much more noticed and appreciated - especially in small states like Kansas - than mass e-mail or phone campaigns that come from outside the state.
The idea is to find the template for how this can work - where the action is coordinated and focu but not micro-managed or mass-directed - and then build that in one state after the next (the next two being Maine and Nebraska to target Snowe and Hagel). Most of it will be done under the radar (most of the organizing and planning so far has been through a Kansas Google group which Jane created), so that it won't have some obvious or traceable root.
nothing in Glenn's post would suggest such an approach
ReplyDeletethese are legitimate points -- the "so-called" leaders really need to be sure they carry a palitable message in an appropriate form before telling everyone else what to do...
It may not have been directly in glenns post and I don't think he is the "know-it-alls" -- in fact, he seems downright humble.
Humble, to me, means "teachible"
I think it is a good point to remember that if we expect others to open their minds, we cannot proclaim to have all the answers either...
PS. Can someone develop a list of people who live in Kansas who don't, for whatever reason, want to compose and write letters, but are willing to have letters sent to them so that they can submit them in their names?
ReplyDeleteAlso, can a local ACLU chapter in Kansas be brought on board?
Well, the gay community (and other special interest focus groups) should step up to the plate and put their personal agendas aside to assure the success of this broader, more important (because it speaks to the entire fascist underpinning of the present Administation) effort.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, it is being reported that a deal has been "cut" that will delay the Port issue until after the elections, to provide cover for the Republicans, and that after that, it will go through. The Republicans will say they have had sufficient time to examine it, and it poses no threat.
As over 90% of Americans are opposed to the deal, most on a gut level that means they are not going to change thier views no matter how much of a case is made it's not a threat, the Democrats should seize on THAT issue, which everyone cares about even more than the "hot button" issues like gay marriage, gay adoption, etc., and use that to frighten the "base" against voting in Republicans who will just bow to Bush and approve the Port deal after the elections.
Is anyone doing an investigation about other "deals" which this Comittee on Foreign Investment has approved in the last few years, that didn't hit the light of day like the Port deal?
Maybe there are other deals which have been approved which the American people would be equally horrified to find out about.
I don't think I see "skeptism" about "campaigns like this." It looks more to me that people are concerned that the personalities of some "superblogs" will not reach across diverse people and needs.
ReplyDeleteChecking their comments boards, in my humble opinion, shows these concerns may be appropriate.
That's not a judgement, it is just as important to discuss "style" of communication as it is to discuss the message.
I don't read any comments in this thread as being negative - rather the expression of concerns that we should be willing to discuss.
Proclaiming otherwise, IMHO, really just affirms that some of the concerns expressed here are legitimate
Well, the gay community (and other special interest focus groups) should step up to the plate and put their personal agendas aside to assure the success of this broader, more important (because it speaks to the entire fascist underpinning of the present Administation) effort.
ReplyDeleteBy this, do you mean - as it appears - that gay people should just be willing to allow referenda to be passed in 16 states banning them from adopting children, all because campaigning against those measures will harm Democrats' electoral chances in November, and they should be willing to sacrifice their adoptive rights for the good of the Party?
I've been waiting for this ugly sentiment to rear its head and I'm sure it will. I understand why it's tempting to win at all costs. But as Bush opponents have been trying to make clear in opposing the idea that we should relinquish our constitutional principles in order to "win the war on terror" - winnign only matters if you simultaneously adhere to the principles that make it wortwhile for you to win in the first place.
the gay community (and other special interest focus groups) should step up to the plate and put their personal agendas aside to assure the success of this broader
ReplyDeleteOMG - now you are going to get the americablog crowd pissed off. After all, john told everyone to stay away from the anti-war rally and then took credit for a campagn against ford cuz they were cutting back on their advertising as they teetered towards bankrupsy.
LOL
This is not going to change america...
Like it matters if i buy a ford or chevy...
There is one person who posts here who has an obsessive complaint about "superblogs" - apparently, he got banned from commenting at FDL or somewhere and so he is constantly babbling about "superblogs" and their arrogance.
ReplyDeleteIf you have complaints about those blogs, why bring them here? And these bloggers can't win. People complain if they sit around and talk and do nothing. People complain if they try to organize.
Personally, I have great appreciation for the work Glenn is doing and the other bloggers, too, and while I have no hesitation about offering suggestions or improvements (which Glenn always asks for), I'm not going to sit here and throw stones at people who are working for free, at their own personal sacrifice, to make things better.
I have respect and gratitude for people who are doing that.
If you have complaints about those blogs, why bring them here?
ReplyDeleteSeems the point was made very clear -- attracting peoople to a blog is one thing, working across diverse populations and actually building coalitions for change is another thing.
If this is "off-limits," then guess people just don't get it...
And we can continue to preach to the choir and watch our democracy get stolen.
Guess its a choice we all make -- if someone is making trying to make that point by directly calling out those that proclaim to be the roots of everything good, so be it. It is still a legitimate point.
Unless the point is to just continue to scream, LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME!
"I'm not going to begin with the assumption that this is all useless and everyone with an (R) after their name are all just hopeless, corrupt shills who are insusceptible to being influenced by anything other than the most venal motives. If one believes that, it's basically tantamount to declaring inevitable defeat in advance, which is not something I think is warranted or productive, altough there are a lot of people (I believe a minority) who seem to find that option attractive." --Glenn Greenwald up above
ReplyDeleteIf you are a "corrupt shill" who is "insusceptible to being influence by anything other than the most venal motives", wouldn't you still be influenced by the fear that people will vote you out of office if you don't bend a little to public pressure? People like the politicians you describe would, at least, be very predictable. It's the people who believe in something based on firm principle they will not be swayed from that would be lost causes for us. Fortunately I just don't see anyone making it very far in politics while retaining a lot of personal integrity.
So I tend to take a very cynical view of these politicians, but that doesn't mean I think a campaign like this is hopeless, far from it, just that we have to show these politicians not that we have ethics on our side, but that we have voters on our side, and that this is an opinion the media will hype enough that it could cost the politicians the next election.
working for free
ReplyDeleteummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
by definition, the "superblogs" don't work for "free."
OT:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, have you seen this article in the
National Journal?
Considering the work you have done on the NSA spy scandal, it's worth a read. Basically, it describes a secret program, Topsail, that should have stopped in 2003. Congress put the kaput on it because the vast data mining involved raised serious privacy/legal concerns.
When I read the article, the first thing I thought of was whether or not this was perhaps the "other" program Gonzales was referring to/hinting at, during his testimony before the Judiciary Committee regarding the NSA spy scandal. I'd be interested in your thoughts
Thanks,
Stacy
"and they should be willing to sacrifice their adoptive rights for the good of the Party?"
ReplyDeleteOf course that's not what I meant. I don't believe in "sacrifice" of any kind.
I meant that to assure their agendas, they should want those candidates to be elected who will support those agendas. If this is a state where this initiative is close, then mobilizing the opposition by uniting them in one of these "hot button" issues can spell defeat for the goal and the candidates who are in support of the goal.
I really don't know that much about politics, so maybe you are saying this issue will be on the same ballot in November as electing representatives? If that is so, then I see the problem in what I advised.
But I was assuming that if people got in who object to things like warrantless spying, and other abuses of the Bush administration, those would be people who care about individual rights, and would make sure that laws which violate a person's rights, such as a ban on gay adoption, would be less likely to succeed.
Removing Pat Roberts is not really a realistic alternative at the moment. I prefer to work towards goals which are achievable.
ReplyDeleteI'm a cynic, sorry to say. I've come to the point that I don't believe we'll see effective change until people like Roberts are removed from office. But I do see your point. And if I were to offer constructive criticism rather than blank pessimism I should have said that the campaign should focus on the people of Kansas rather than Roberts.
Combining this with my cynisism I would say that unless the people of Kansas suggest to Roberts that if he is not willing to investigate the NSA matter they will vote him out he will continue to defend the administration the way he has done in the past.
I don't see Representatives and Senators in this caricatured, monolithic way - that they are all devoid of anything human and driven only by the most cynical and base political calculations and nothing else.
...
I'm not going to begin with the assumption that this is all useless and everyone with an (R) after their name are all just hopeless
Aw, c'mon! I don't mind being taken to task, and I do agree with the point about individuals being open to persuasion, but let's be fair about it. I am not cynical about Roberts because he has an (R) behind his name - I'm cynical about Roberts because he has a history of obstructing and deflecting inquiries into the conduct of this administration.
When you stated skeptcism about Arlen Specter exercising independence would you have found such a rebuttal fair?
There are lots of obstalces to winning which need to be overcome and lots of reasons why it's difficult. Most of us are aware of those obstalces and it does little good to sit around bemoaning them. I guess I prefer to try to find the ways that they can be overcome rather than constantly harping on the reasons they can't be.
Now, see, this is the part that made me blush. You're absolutely right here.
Can someone develop a list of people who live in Kansas who don't, for whatever reason, want to compose and write letters, but are willing to have letters sent to them so that they can submit them in their names?
ReplyDeleteNo, this would be a bad idea. First, because that would be dishonest, and there is no need to use dishonest tactics.
Second, this is an attempt (as was the suggestion for out of staters to write letters) to increase the volume of letters at the expense of sincerity and relevance.
The reason astroturf campaigns are ineffective is that the writers haven't made the sincere effort to engage the question and formulate an opinion.
Jane and Glenn are focusing on individual's composing their own thoughts in their own words because that's what gets published. The idea is to get the letters in print. Cut-and-paste letters, letters by surrogates, blanket emails all lower the signal to noise ratio, and leads the newspaper to regard your cause as tendentious rather than substantive. That, of course, feeds their tendency to view everything through a partisan filter, and focus on "balance" rather than substance and truth.
This is exactly the right way to do this. While the impact of a letter or two in the Garden City Telegram may seem insignificant, it is not. I grew up in a rural area in New England and I've spent a lot of time in Kansas. The local newspaper is an important part of people's lives in rural areas.
I think K2's post is quite insightful. I also have long experience with family members who had Alzeheimers, and reading K'2's excerpts very carefully, I think it is abundantly clear that Sen. Roberts does in fact have Alzeheimers, or one of the other senile dimension diseases.
ReplyDeleteAnd I would say it's progressed beyond the very early stages.
There's a big difference between being stupid, or a lackey for the President, and having a cognitive dissociative form of mental reasoning, as here. Almost no sentence he utters makes complete sense. That's exactly how people talk in the early to mid early stages of these diseases.
K2's point is a big one for two reasons: first, if Sen. Roberts cannot think lucidly and clearly, if he just has lost that ability because of a medical condition, then that has to be assessed in evaluating how various outside pressures will or will not affect him.
Second, I would be very reluctant to vote for a politican in my state whom I thought was not in full control of his reasoning process. That is a very big danger.
So I don't know when this Senator comes up for election, but he certainly should not be on any committees requiring memory, reasoning or judgment if he is not up to the task.
I think this question should be raised, and someone should investigate just what his mental condition is, and what stage his condition is in, etc.
Just a post to thank you and your associates on coming up with an action plan. It has been frustrating knowing something needed to be done, but not finding any direction. I am in Georgia and will heed your advice to leave it to the residents of the targeted states. I will be monitoring the progress and anxiously awaiting my turn.
ReplyDeleteA statement that sums up my feelings about living in the US under the Bush Administration:
"Toto, I have a
feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
I think three excellent suggestions have been made on this thread:
ReplyDeletel) Stop worring about all the "macro" issues for a bit, as much of the thinking about those issues has been done now, and focus on specific goals, to see if they can be effectuated. If so, that opens up a huge door for future similar endeavors. I sense a certain fear when I read other blogs condemning Glenn. I think what is really bothering those people is they sense he may well be victorious in his efforts.
2) Not a single voter has to be persuaded to change his views. Merely making people concerned enough to get out and vote is enough to assure victory. For that reason, I like the purple finger idea, although I wouldn't use purple as it identifies too much with Iraq, but another highly visible mark like that begun now, so every time someone sees another with that mark, that person is reminded of the issues and the necessity to get out and vote, could be enormously influential. People like to be part of groups--that's human nature. They also like "causes." A single identifying mark like that can indicate that the "cause" is something as broad as a desire to change the way things have been going.
3) Getting groups in Kansas, like the Library associations, to be part of this effort seems like a terrific, winning idea.
"No, this would be a bad idea. First, because that would be dishonest, and there is no need to use dishonest tactics."
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean it as a dishonest ploy. There are just so many people who feel strongly about things, but are not articulate, and who thus fear writing letters.
Tapping into their basic support of these issues by getting around the fear of organizing their thoughts and putting them in writing is what I was addressing.
I hope you, Jane, and thersites will be clear about how people outside of Kansas can help, as the majority of readers are not from Kansas, but want to help.
ReplyDeleteWe're definitely going to be expanding this effort -- if it works -- to all 50 states. As I wrote on VichyDems:
Note: this is just Phase I of the Kansas Stage of the Roots Project. It will evolve to include more than letters, and all 50 states, but always driven by local citizens, speaking to their own representatives.
As to the "Superbloggers" concerns and the suggestions of working with advocacy groups: I can tell you, both personally and from my association with Jane, Glenn, John, and the others who are working on the Roots Project: this isn't about money! It's truly a labor of love (and as someone who's been on the computer for the last 6 hours solid, and is dealing with a nasty headache, I do mean "labor").
The concern about whether some large bloggers' ideas, or a big organization's agenda, will infiltrate this project is something I feel very, very strongly about and wrote about here, here and here. To varying degrees, I believe the other Roots Project participants are thinking along similar lines.
Here's a thought on how out of staters like me might be able to help.
ReplyDeleteAre there any Colleges or Universities in Kansas?
If someone tireless like thersites could get a list of those, with a main phone number for each, I , and perhaps others, would be willing to call those colleges and see how to get in touch with any Libertarian or Democratic Clubs on those campuses and I could speak with the heads of those organizations and explain the program, and the goal to them, and attempt to get them to enlist their parents in the letter writing and radio call-in programs.
"Glenn,
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand I applaud this, but on the other I worry about something: doesn't this influence your credibility? Aren't you more effective by just 'noting' what's going on, pointing towards the illegality of it all and ... that's it?
Doesn't this make you a victim for vigerous right-wing attacks?"
Better to be attacked and achieve the goal than sit back, "note" what's going on, and watch the country go to Hell.
Jane makes the point that many of the traditional organizations like Move On, Naral, etc. have lost their integrity of purpose and become mere fundraising machines.
People like Glenn, Jane, and thersites, and Act Blue and Daily Kos, etc., are the ones who have stepped forward to take the lead in organization the grass roots.
Martin Luther King "noted" what was "going on", but he also organized the resistance. You can be a prophet and an organizer at the same time. In fact, that's the winning combo.
stacy, I just noticed that article, and others like it, which appeared yesterday on the Internet.
ReplyDeleteI had the exact same thought: this sounds exactly like the "other programs" that Gonzales indirectly implied existed in his testimony.
Maybe constant could research this and post here?
Also, may I may a suggestion to constant? Since there is so little time, and so many links on any thread, when you put a link from now on, could you also paste and clip the salient point of the link into the body of your post?
That way even people who don't open the link can benefit from the thrust of the article.
Thanks.
It's truly a labor of love
ReplyDeleteWhere should I start -- its an easy thing to say when you have a roof over your head and a few nice things...
The power of this is not going to come from who does or does not make money, nor the proclaimations people make about their "pure" intentions.
We can make a difference by allowing people to participate in a discussion and not letting it turn into a 300+ thread of insults.
I am reminded of what "great" charitable people Bill and Melinda Gates are...
After all, they give away small fortunes to some causes. Does this mean their motives are somehow "pure?"
Don't know, don't need to judge, it really doesnt matter.
The change we seek is going to require support from broad coalitions. It will have to be much bigger than any of the individuals involved.
This appears to be an effective program. I've always felt that lobbyists short-circuit the democratic process by simply placing themselves between the representative and the constituency. By going directly to the constituency, from where the representative derives his power, one can more effectively change an undesireable course.
ReplyDeleteThat is based on the presumption that you provide a logical and reasonable case that avoids shrieky and unhinged declarations. The talking points you supplied are what I've been waiting for to compare with some of my own ideas. I want to avoid the impression of "casting pearls of wisdom before the swine of ignorance." We are, after all, just asking for an investigation for answers to the questions we have.
As I live in Oklahoma and not in Kansas, I do not see this as an obstacle to participation. I am, after all, an American too who is concerned and plan to write to my local publications and call into my local radio stations. Elected officials do talk to one another and I feel it is a good idea to encourage my representatives as well by communicating with their constituents.
The money is nice and all, but people who are fighting real fights, normally don't do it for the money. They're doing it for the cause
ReplyDeleteJust checked my Google AdSense account: Today's Earnings: $0.25
And I'm giving it all to ActBlue candidates.
Nope, not in it for the money! :-)
The wonderful thing about people who are really passionate about a cause is that nothing, absolutely nothing, can corrupt, or deter them. If somneone offered me a hundred million dollars to change or modify my views on the NSA spying and the broader issue of and fascism in America, I wouldn't even be tempted.
ReplyDeleteI like the phrase "The Virtuous Mob", thersites. It kind of captures it all: people who are driven by principles, and the right principles, and who are part of the citizenry, rather than part of Power Machine.
In defense of Bill Gates: he has done more, both through his business genius and his charitable
contributions than perhaps any other one person in America.
When the poster who critized him does one trillioneth as much to enrich the lives of others as Bill Gate has done, maybe you can re-appear.
Until then, you sound like a socialist malcontent who hates anyone with money.
thersites, put your snail mail address in a post, and I will send you money. I am one of those who does not like to send money on the Internet.
ReplyDeletedon't think anyhone is concerned about the money thing...
ReplyDeleteThink the point is, the popularity of any one blog will not be what makes this effort effective campaign -- it is great that some bloggers are starting to discuss actually doing something with the dialog on their sites.
Wasn't too long ago most superblogs proclaimed that "this wasn't there thing"
Now the challenge is just how to channel that energy to be as constructive as possible.
Remember, we don't have the MSM echo chamber. Just because the right can "catapult" their propaganda with some strong personalities and viewpoint that leave no room for difference of opinions, does not mean we can.
If the lying liars have already cornered the "dittohead" market, we may need to appeal to those that are willing to think for themselves (or at least consider other points of view). At the very least, don't want to offend that crowd.
And even if we can start a meaningful dialog across a wider audience than a typical comment board, there are well-entrenched forces to deal with. If anyone really thinks that chimpy, rove, and cheney are the "utlimate" powers here, they are underestimating what we are up against -- probably a mistake, not that I have all the answers.
Without free, open, and verifiable elections, chimpy and gang can "manufacter" all the support they need -- in fact, that seems to be how they got started in the first place.
not sure anyone criticized him -- in fact they obviously did not. Just pointing out that "charitible" is a relative term.
ReplyDeleteThink many are grateful that more people have access to easy to learn and use technology.
Just saying that "passion" is perhaps best measured by ability to work with others towards the change one proclaims to seek.
If that is an offensive statement....
well, then we are doomed...
thersites, put your snail mail address in a post, and I will send you money.
ReplyDeleteWow, what a kind offer! And someday I may decide I need to actually make some money from my blogging. (My wife would say sooner rather than later!) For now, though, what would make me happiest is if you'd take whatever money you'd give to me, and send it to the ActBlue candidates I'm supporting, in VichyDems' name, and then tell me about it. Seriously. That would give me the greatest high ever.
If you're uncomfortable giving money on the internet, send me an email: vichydems@safe-mail.net and we'll work something out!
OT but HELP!!!
ReplyDelete"By PAMELA HESS
UPI Pentagon Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 (UPI) -- A United Arab Emirates government-owned company is poised to take over port terminal operations in 21 American ports, far more than the six widely reported.
The Bush administration has approved the takeover of British-owned Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Co. to DP World, a deal set to go forward March 2 unless Congress intervenes.
P&O is the parent company of P&O Ports North America, which leases terminals for the import and export and loading and unloading and security of cargo in 21 ports, 11 on the East Coast, ranging from Portland, Maine to Miami, Florida, and 10 on the Gulf Coast, from Gulfport, Miss., to Corpus Christi, Texas, according to the company's Web site."
Isn't this just typical of the "secrecy" of this administration that when issue exploded in the press, they didn't even explain that there were 21 ports, not six.
Bush is apparently just trying to sell out America as fast as he can, so that by the time he's out of office, he and his cronies will have enough money never to need any more again.
Glenn, isn't there something we can do about this? I am starting to get panicked about all these ports being turned over.
Thersites, can you research this?
Glenn, isn't there something we can do about this? I am starting to get panicked about all these ports being turned over. Thersites, can you research this?
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I'm ecstatic about the whole ports issue. I do think that it's a security issue -- the person who manipulates the freight manifests is the person who can help containers bypass security safeguards. But I don't think there's an icecube's chance in hell of the UAE ever taking over at this point. And the Bush administration's fumbling and chest-puffing over it is exactly what we need.
Did you catch the Rasmussen poll showing, for the first time ever, that more Americans trust the Dems in Congress than trust Pres. Bush to protect national security? 43%-41%. And it's all because of the UAE/ports deal!
So, while I'd be out in front if I thought the UAE deal was going to actually happen, at this point I'm sort of sitting back watching this with glee. It's a slow-motion disaster for the Republicans, it'll hopefully get us our NSA hearings, and it may even bolster our momentum against Libby, Rove, and Cheney on leaks. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
I hope that's reassuring, not dismissive. I intended it to be reassuring!
While people should use their own words to craft the letters, I think the phrase "checks and balances" needs to be hammered home. People learned in grade school that this is a vital strength of our government. It is much more convincing to say "any eavesdropping must be done with checks and balances" than "any eavesdropping must be conducted with the approval of the FISA court."
ReplyDeleteThersites2, while I agree with you in general, and believe you do great work here, I wonder if things will really be that simple. If your main point is not to let this overwhelm us now, you are spot on.
ReplyDeleteIf they put this off 'til after 2006 elections, they can probably make it happen. If the republicans remain in charge after 2006 too, you can kiss Social Security goodbye too -- they will claim that they have the "mandate" thing.
Remember, chimpy said he was not going to change SS during the debates with kerry and the entire campaign, and then proclaimed he had a mandate to do it. As long as they have the lying liars "catapulting the propaganda" they can get away with almost anything.
At some point, I pray that people start deciding that WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY ALLIGATORS, YOU DRAIN THE SWAMP.
A letter writing campaing in Kansas is all fine and good -- if we kept giving the main corporate sponsors our dollars, we could get some attention.
Some good info is a buyblue.org. I know that talking about boycotts will alienate some -- but eventually we will have to acknowledge who chimpy and gang are taking their "marching orders" from.
"While I will no longer respond to Bartaliya and the other BushShills, there is some value in reading their comments, neverthetheless, since they are clearly spouting White House talking points."
ReplyDeleteDavid Shaughnessy, I've been that here saying here for some time. While it's been obvious that Bartaliya works for Bushco since the second day "they" came to the site, and I initially had posted that people should not engage them in dialogue, it soon became clear that they have been been a superb indicater of inside Republican Stategy.
As one who has bothered to comb through their posts for just such hints, I have been glad to note that there's an increasing desperation to the shill points they have made, and arguments they have thought would take hold have fizzled as soon as they have been trotted out in the media.
Also, you have alluded to who is behind BushCo more than once. OK. Who do you think it is?
thersites, you are pure of heart and probably underestimate the hubris and depravity of Bushco.
If the Republicans keep control of both houses (or maybe even one), unless something really staggering in dimension happens before then, they may well push this deal through. I know it seems unimaginable, but if you sift carefully through a lot of the statements of the politicians who have come out against it, there's more emphasis on the fact that it needs to be investigated more, than a "NO NO NO!" position.
So, is this working? Are people writing in?
ReplyDeleteI live in KS and I wrote to the KC Star. We'll see if they publish anything I guess.
A while ago I was watching C-Span concerning the NSA spy scandal at my house in Shawnee, when low and behold Pat Roberts decides he is going to shame all Kansans by giving the OK for the NSA to conduct it's Domestic Espionage program. I was so furious at this outrages dereliction of duty to uphold the constitution and to serve the will of his constituants that I had to do everything I could to challenge bought and paid for Pat Roberts. After calling my mother and informing her that if she or my father ever vote for him or anyone else who would willingly barter with the rights that generations of American families have given there sweat, blood, life, and property to ensure that I can have those rights....I would dissown my own parents and never speak to them again.
ReplyDeleteTo this my mother informed me of a suprising little fact, that is rather amusing and motivating. She told me that they have never voted for him and never will, but aside from that she told me how I never did like Pat either. She went on to say, that when I was four years old that Pat Roberts was campaigning in our neighborhood and rang the doorbell one. She said that I opened the door, took one look at him, and told him, "We don't want any!" I then slammed the door!
Now I'm telling this story, becuase it's true....I remember it quite well (I just had no idea that it was Pat Roberts). Moreover, becuase I realized that if I could slam the door in his face at four, I can hold him to the fire now. I know that Kansans, no matter how die hard Republican, don't take to well to having there rights messed with. But, above all, we don't tolerate politicians manipulating the constitution and law for there own purposes and to the detrement of our good name. Pat Roberts will be held accountable.
As a note on some things that really will have impact:
Media outlets are very sensitive to not upsetting their advertisers. Find out who the major advertisers are of the paper you are submitting to. If you face any difficulty in having any impact, call the advertisers and put them on the spot for supporting papers that don't cover such an important issue.
Also, look deeply into Pat Roberts supporters and contributors. Put them on the hot seat. Hold them responsible as well. Just remember, Patty didn't decide to keep the entire intelligence committee in the dark and unillaterally rewrite the constitution by himself(he's not the kind of person that thinks for himself)....he's trying to protect himself and others by concealing the truth. If you caught any of the Gonzales hearing in the Judiciary you know its bad when he declined to answer if postal mail, homes, emails, and phone calls of journalists, activists, and various others were searched & seized without warrants.
Anyway, I really would like to help, just moved back to Kansas a while ago to finish up school at KU, if anyone knows of when Pat will be in Kansas campaigning or speaking I'd love to find out.
r.
rudy28@gmail.com